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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Friday, September 18, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the Massachusetts trial of Lindsay Clancy, one detail was not disputed in court: Clancy admitted to killing her three young children before attempting suicide in January 2023. But over the multi-week trial, Clancy’s defense argued she could not be held criminally responsible by reason of insanity, attributing her actions to postpartum psychosis. This case left a jury split and the public divided as it highlights major questions about insanity pleas, mental health care and similar cases involving postpartum psychosis. We’ll explore the complicated issue, and look at how it plays out here in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky,\u003c/strong> health correspondent, KQED News\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nirmaljit Dhami,\u003c/strong> perinatal psychiatrist, El Camino Hospital, medical director of the Inpatient Perinatal Psychiatry Unit\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michelle Oberman,\u003c/strong> Professor of Law, Santa Clara University School of Law, Author of Mothers Who Kill Their Children\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 1, 2026\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wildfire season is underway in California, but the state’s wildfire fund is running low after billions went to victims of last year’s massive Altadena fire, sparked by faulty equipment owned by Southern California Edison. Governor Newsom and the legislature’s debate over fixing the wildfire fund has hinged on the extent utilities, insurance companies and homeowners would pay into it. We’ll dig into the details, and hear your thoughts on who should pay to rebuild after wildfires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati,\u003c/strong> correspondent, KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability, director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program, senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joy Chen,\u003c/strong> executive director, Every Fire Survivor’s Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability, director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program, senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 1, 2026\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wildfire season is underway in California, but the state’s wildfire fund is running low after billions went to victims of last year’s massive Altadena fire, sparked by faulty equipment owned by Southern California Edison. Governor Newsom and the legislature’s debate over fixing the wildfire fund has hinged on the extent utilities, insurance companies and homeowners would pay into it. We’ll dig into the details, and hear your thoughts on who should pay to rebuild after wildfires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati,\u003c/strong> correspondent, KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability, director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program, senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joy Chen,\u003c/strong> executive director, Every Fire Survivor’s Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate, Monday, August 17, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More than 600 California stoneworkers have contracted silicosis, a deadly and incurable lung disease resulting from exposure to the silica in engineered stone. The material, a go-to choice for home countertops, has been found to be toxic to the workers who cut, grind and polish it. Now, doctors, stoneworkers and activists are pressuring California lawmakers to ban the material and embrace available alternatives. At the same time, stone manufacturers and lawmakers are pushing federal legislation to protect manufacturers from worker lawsuits. Join us as we unpack the danger of artificial stone containing silica and the state of efforts to protect workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero, \u003c/strong>labor correspondent, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi,\u003c/strong> pulmonologist and assistant professor, UC San Francisco; director, the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We learn more this hour with KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent here. Welcome, Farida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is also with us, a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician and director for the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network at UCSF. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Gandhi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Farida, you first encountered someone with silicosis a few years ago. What were they going through?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. They were in their late 20s. And I think how young this worker was at the time — I think it was in 2023, when California was considering tightening rules for how engineered stone, or artificial stone, which is this material linked to the increase in silicosis — they were considering tightening these rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so this young man came into the meeting via Zoom. And I could see that he was connected to an oxygen machine, you know, with, like, the clear tubes tied to his nostrils, clipped to his nostrils. And I just couldn’t believe that he was so young and he was having to depend on an oxygen machine to breathe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think he said he was on the waitlist to receive a lung transplant, which meant that his silicosis was really advanced. And he’d worked a number of years in this industry. But obviously, I mean, the fact that he was so young and already having to deal with it, and it seemed like most of the burden for his disease was falling on his family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He used to be the main breadwinner, and now everybody had to deal with this. So it’s —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The age is not necessarily a major outlier, right? Young men predominantly are getting this disease. I read that the median age of diagnosis is 46.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California, first of all, is the only state, as I understand it, actively tracking this disease. And what we know from this data that doctors at the California Department of Public Health have gathered and spent time confirming these cases, tracking these cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then also, the numbers that you, the figures that you just mentioned right now — I mean, the fact that we have this website showing us all the new cases that they’re finding, where they are in the state, the age of the people getting sick, how many people have undergone lung transplants or are waiting for this surgery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about if they’ve received a lung transplant?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one of the reasons that doctors like Dr. Gandhi say that we’ve been able to, you know, track these cases as well. In other states, through our public health system, and that these workers have been able to receive life-saving treatment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with them and you after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Farida, you first encountered someone with silicosis a few years ago. What were they going through?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. They were in their late 20s. And I think how young this worker was at the time — I think it was in 2023, when California was considering tightening rules for how engineered stone, or artificial stone, which is this material linked to the increase in silicosis — they were considering tightening these rules.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so this young man came into the meeting via Zoom. And I could see that he was connected to an oxygen machine, you know, with, like, the clear tubes tied to his nostrils, clipped to his nostrils. And I just couldn’t believe that he was so young and he was having to depend on an oxygen machine to breathe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think he said he was on the waitlist to receive a lung transplant, which meant that his silicosis was really advanced. And he’d worked a number of years in this industry. But obviously, I mean, the fact that he was so young and already having to deal with it, and it seemed like most of the burden for his disease was falling on his family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The age is not necessarily a major outlier, right? Young men predominantly are getting this disease. I read that the median age of diagnosis is 46.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California, first of all, is the only state, as I understand it, actively tracking this disease. And what we know from this data that doctors at the California Department of Public Health have gathered and spent time confirming these cases, tracking these cases.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then also, the numbers that you, the figures that you just mentioned right now — I mean, the fact that we have this website showing us all the new cases that they’re finding, where they are in the state, the age of the people getting sick, how many people have undergone lung transplants or are waiting for this surgery.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then also, the numbers that you, the figures that you just mentioned right now — I mean, the fact that we have this website showing us all the new cases that they’re finding, where they are in the state, the age of the people getting sick, how many people have undergone lung transplants or are waiting for this surgery.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about if they’ve received a lung transplant?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about if they’ve received a lung transplant?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s one of the reasons that doctors like Dr. Gandhi say that we’ve been able to, you know, track these cases as well. In other states, through our public health system, and that these workers have been able to receive life-saving treatment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s one of the reasons that doctors like Dr. Gandhi say that we’ve been able to, you know, track these cases as well. In other states, through our public health system, and that these workers have been able to receive life-saving treatment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with them and you after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Join us as we unpack the danger of artificial stone containing silica and the efforts to protect workers.",
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"title": "Artificial Stone Containing Silica is Killing Workers. Will California Ban It? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate, Monday, August 17, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More than 600 California stoneworkers have contracted silicosis, a deadly and incurable lung disease resulting from exposure to the silica in engineered stone. The material, a go-to choice for home countertops, has been found to be toxic to the workers who cut, grind and polish it. Now, doctors, stoneworkers and activists are pressuring California lawmakers to ban the material and embrace available alternatives. At the same time, stone manufacturers and lawmakers are pushing federal legislation to protect manufacturers from worker lawsuits. Join us as we unpack the danger of artificial stone containing silica and the state of efforts to protect workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero, \u003c/strong>labor correspondent, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi,\u003c/strong> pulmonologist and assistant professor, UC San Francisco; director, the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We learn more this hour with KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent here. Welcome, Farida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is also with us, a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician and director for the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network at UCSF. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Gandhi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Farida, you first encountered someone with silicosis a few years ago. What were they going through?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. They were in their late 20s. And I think how young this worker was at the time — I think it was in 2023, when California was considering tightening rules for how engineered stone, or artificial stone, which is this material linked to the increase in silicosis — they were considering tightening these rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so this young man came into the meeting via Zoom. And I could see that he was connected to an oxygen machine, you know, with, like, the clear tubes tied to his nostrils, clipped to his nostrils. And I just couldn’t believe that he was so young and he was having to depend on an oxygen machine to breathe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think he said he was on the waitlist to receive a lung transplant, which meant that his silicosis was really advanced. And he’d worked a number of years in this industry. But obviously, I mean, the fact that he was so young and already having to deal with it, and it seemed like most of the burden for his disease was falling on his family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He used to be the main breadwinner, and now everybody had to deal with this. So it’s —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The age is not necessarily a major outlier, right? Young men predominantly are getting this disease. I read that the median age of diagnosis is 46.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California, first of all, is the only state, as I understand it, actively tracking this disease. And what we know from this data that doctors at the California Department of Public Health have gathered and spent time confirming these cases, tracking these cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then also, the numbers that you, the figures that you just mentioned right now — I mean, the fact that we have this website showing us all the new cases that they’re finding, where they are in the state, the age of the people getting sick, how many people have undergone lung transplants or are waiting for this surgery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about if they’ve received a lung transplant?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one of the reasons that doctors like Dr. Gandhi say that we’ve been able to, you know, track these cases as well. In other states, through our public health system, and that these workers have been able to receive life-saving treatment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with them and you after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "why-dont-americans-trust-the-news",
"title": "Why Don’t Americans Trust the News?",
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"content": "\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-audio\">\u003caudio controls src=\"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC3165819532.mp3\">\u003c/audio>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, August 3, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A trusted press is essential to a thriving democracy, but recent studies show that Americans’ confidence in news media has hit record lows — regardless of factors like geography and political affiliation. To blame are growing perceptions of bias and a sense that news reporting that doesn’t feel applicable to everyday life. We look at why so few people trust the media — and what could be done to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, journalist, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, Scene on Radio producer and host, Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does that all mean? What has journalism gotten wrong? And where do we go from here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome to you both.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a sense of just not being able to get information about what’s going on in the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about attributing it to a single thing. I think there’s a combination of factors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The biggest comment that we heard was simply, \u003cem>más información\u003c/em>. People wanted more information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Spanish speakers here in the Bay Area, despite the fact that there are nearly two million Bay Area residents who speak Spanish at home, there are so few sources of news and information serving that community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People told us they wanted more information, more local information, more information that’s relevant to their daily lives. They also said, “I want actionable information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We led this listening process during the first Trump administration, and so many people told us, “I just avoid the news because it leaves me in a panic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the news was, in some ways, harmful to their own mental health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And how do they feel their communities are profiled or presented to the world through the media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Essentially as victims — very much so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I recall one conversation that I had with a community organizer who was a leader in an organization of immigrant women in the East Bay. She told me that, previous to that job, she had worked as a lawyer and would oftentimes get calls from reporters asking to interview her for her expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yet in this role, working as a community organizer for an organization made up of immigrant women, reporters called her looking for profiles of people who were victims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s how she personally experienced the media, and I think it’s how a lot of community members see themselves reflected in the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. We’re joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast out of Duke University that recently investigated our news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you just heard \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. I’m Lesley McClurg. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim, and we’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. This is across political parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He’s host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast about America’s news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s the publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We would love to hear from you. Do you trust us? Why or why not? Can you remember when you potentially started to lose confidence in the media? Do you want more local news? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can email your comments and questions to forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on any of the social channels — Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram. We’re @KQEDForum. Or you can jump on the phone now and give us a call at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A trusted press is essential to a thriving democracy, but recent studies show that Americans’ confidence in news media has hit record lows — regardless of factors like geography and political affiliation. To blame are growing perceptions of bias and a sense that news reporting that doesn’t feel applicable to everyday life. We look at why so few people trust the media — and what could be done to change that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A trusted press is essential to a thriving democracy, but recent studies show that Americans’ confidence in news media has hit record lows — regardless of factors like geography and political affiliation. To blame are growing perceptions of bias and a sense that news reporting that doesn’t feel applicable to everyday life. We look at why so few people trust the media — and what could be done to change that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what does that all mean? What has journalism gotten wrong? And where do we go from here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what does that all mean? What has journalism gotten wrong? And where do we go from here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome to you both.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there’s a sense of just not being able to get information about what’s going on in the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about attributing it to a single thing. I think there’s a combination of factors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The biggest comment that we heard was simply, \u003cem>más información\u003c/em>. People wanted more information.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The biggest comment that we heard was simply, \u003cem>más información\u003c/em>. People wanted more information.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Spanish speakers here in the Bay Area, despite the fact that there are nearly two million Bay Area residents who speak Spanish at home, there are so few sources of news and information serving that community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For Spanish speakers here in the Bay Area, despite the fact that there are nearly two million Bay Area residents who speak Spanish at home, there are so few sources of news and information serving that community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>People told us they wanted more information, more local information, more information that’s relevant to their daily lives. They also said, “I want actionable information.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>People told us they wanted more information, more local information, more information that’s relevant to their daily lives. They also said, “I want actionable information.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We led this listening process during the first Trump administration, and so many people told us, “I just avoid the news because it leaves me in a panic.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We led this listening process during the first Trump administration, and so many people told us, “I just avoid the news because it leaves me in a panic.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the news was, in some ways, harmful to their own mental health.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And how do they feel their communities are profiled or presented to the world through the media?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And how do they feel their communities are profiled or presented to the world through the media?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Essentially as victims — very much so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Essentially as victims — very much so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I recall one conversation that I had with a community organizer who was a leader in an organization of immigrant women in the East Bay. She told me that, previous to that job, she had worked as a lawyer and would oftentimes get calls from reporters asking to interview her for her expertise.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I recall one conversation that I had with a community organizer who was a leader in an organization of immigrant women in the East Bay. She told me that, previous to that job, she had worked as a lawyer and would oftentimes get calls from reporters asking to interview her for her expertise.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yet in this role, working as a community organizer for an organization made up of immigrant women, reporters called her looking for profiles of people who were victims.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that’s how she personally experienced the media, and I think it’s how a lot of community members see themselves reflected in the media.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. We’re joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast out of Duke University that recently investigated our news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. We’re joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast out of Duke University that recently investigated our news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you just heard \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. I’m Lesley McClurg. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim, and we’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. This is across political parties.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim, and we’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. This is across political parties.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He’s host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast about America’s news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s the publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We would love to hear from you. Do you trust us? Why or why not? Can you remember when you potentially started to lose confidence in the media? Do you want more local news? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We would love to hear from you. Do you trust us? Why or why not? Can you remember when you potentially started to lose confidence in the media? Do you want more local news? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email your comments and questions to forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on any of the social channels — Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram. We’re @KQEDForum. Or you can jump on the phone now and give us a call at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-audio\">\u003caudio controls src=\"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC3165819532.mp3\">\u003c/audio>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, August 3, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A trusted press is essential to a thriving democracy, but recent studies show that Americans’ confidence in news media has hit record lows — regardless of factors like geography and political affiliation. To blame are growing perceptions of bias and a sense that news reporting that doesn’t feel applicable to everyday life. We look at why so few people trust the media — and what could be done to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, journalist, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, Scene on Radio producer and host, Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does that all mean? What has journalism gotten wrong? And where do we go from here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome to you both.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a sense of just not being able to get information about what’s going on in the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about attributing it to a single thing. I think there’s a combination of factors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The biggest comment that we heard was simply, \u003cem>más información\u003c/em>. People wanted more information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Spanish speakers here in the Bay Area, despite the fact that there are nearly two million Bay Area residents who speak Spanish at home, there are so few sources of news and information serving that community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People told us they wanted more information, more local information, more information that’s relevant to their daily lives. They also said, “I want actionable information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We led this listening process during the first Trump administration, and so many people told us, “I just avoid the news because it leaves me in a panic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the news was, in some ways, harmful to their own mental health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And how do they feel their communities are profiled or presented to the world through the media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Essentially as victims — very much so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I recall one conversation that I had with a community organizer who was a leader in an organization of immigrant women in the East Bay. She told me that, previous to that job, she had worked as a lawyer and would oftentimes get calls from reporters asking to interview her for her expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yet in this role, working as a community organizer for an organization made up of immigrant women, reporters called her looking for profiles of people who were victims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s how she personally experienced the media, and I think it’s how a lot of community members see themselves reflected in the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. We’re joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast out of Duke University that recently investigated our news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you just heard \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. I’m Lesley McClurg. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim, and we’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. This is across political parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He’s host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast about America’s news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s the publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We would love to hear from you. Do you trust us? Why or why not? Can you remember when you potentially started to lose confidence in the media? Do you want more local news? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Are We Doomed If The Internet Goes Dark?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, Are We Doomed? Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Friday, April 17 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 2026 WNBA season tips off next month. It’s expected to see historic viewership and attendance, after last season’s record-breaking run as the most-watched regular season in the history of the league. But even though this is the WNBA’s historic 30th season, women have been playing basketball since long before 1996. Sports journalists Jordan Robinson and Emma Baccellieri set out to profile the female trailblazers who changed basketball history, like Denise Long Rife, the first woman drafted by an NBA team when she was recruited to the San Francisco Warriors in 1969, and Ora Washington, who in the 1930s became a star on her YMCA’s all-Black basketball team after already winning “almost every tennis trophy available to a Black woman in pre-war America.” We’ll celebrate the players and coaches who made women’s basketball into the phenomenon it is today, and get a preview for the upcoming season, with Robinson and Baccellieri. Their new book is “Court Queens: Celebrate the Players, Teams, and History of Women’s Basketball.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, March 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Betty Reid Soskin was a civil rights pioneer, musician, and the nation’s oldest park ranger when, at the age of 100, she retired from Richmond’s Rosie the Riveter museum where she was dedicated to keeping experiences of Black Americans and women in the forefront of the historical narrative. She worked in the segregated homefront during World War II, was among the first Black families to integrate Walnut Creek, and she ran one of the first Black-owned record stores in the Bay Area. She died in December at 104 years old and as part of our Bay Area Legends series, we’ll listen back to Forum’s interviews with Soskin over the years and talk with those who loved her and worked with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I don’t have too many journalistic regrets, but one of them is that I never got a chance to interview Betty Reid Soskin. Soskin became nationally famous as a park ranger at the Rosie the Riveter Museum in Richmond, but I first encountered her through her blog. Yes—she was a prolific blogger beginning in 2003.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually just learned that she went to an Al Gore internet conference in Silicon Valley, which is one way she got tipped off to the internet. This was a person who adapted to her times, but also shaped them. She died late last year and recently had a memorial at the theater at the Kaiser Auditorium. We wanted to recognize her this morning here on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, too, as a Bay Area legend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid—musician and activist. Thank you so much, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service. She was Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor at the Rosie the Riveter/World War II Home Front National Historical Park. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bob, just before we get into hearing your mother’s voice—because she came on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> several times over the years—what was she like? If she were sitting here in this chair, what would we think about Betty Reid Soskin?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My mother would have been different people at different times in her life. She changed every decade—kind of wiped her slate clean and reinvented herself. So she would have said something appropriate, something she had thought out very carefully, and it would have been worth hearing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Let’s listen to her. She witnessed a ton of history. She worked on the home front during World War II, which we’re going to hear about, but she was also present in Washington, D.C., for Barack Obama’s inauguration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So from the archives, here’s Betty Reid Soskin talking about that moment in 2015 with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Reid Soskin (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m more aware, now in my nineties, of being an evolving person in an evolving nation than I could have been at seventy-five. That’s what I’m impressed with now—that I have seen so much change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m aware that every generation has to recreate democracy in its time. But on January 20th, 2009, I’m a seated guest of George Miller on the Capitol Mall, with a picture of my great-grandmother, who was born in 1846 into slavery and was enslaved until she was nineteen—freed by the Emancipation Proclamation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s an amazing thing, because my grandmother lived to be 102, which means that when she died—since I was born in 1921—I was a grown woman, married with children, twenty-seven years old, when my enslaved ancestor died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m sitting there with a picture in my pocket watching the inauguration of the first African American president, in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial, whose life was contemporary with the life of my great-grandmother. That’s how fast the time goes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was Betty Reid Soskin in 2015, in her nineties at that time, talking with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, you know, she contained history. She was history. Bob Reid, clearly there are some good longevity genes in the family. But Kelli, tell me what it was like having someone who could embody this history while also teaching it to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, it was incredible—an amazing phenomenon to have her. She really was a phenomenon. She was both a gifted storyteller, as you just heard, as well as a living primary source.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, she used to joke sometimes that she had outlived all the people whose memories did not align with her own—which we laughed about, but we also really utilized at the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of history in those World War II years, and there’s certainly the dominant narrative of Rosie the Riveter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everyone came together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes—everyone came together. But everyone was having a different experience, even as they were coming together. And I think that’s what she really emphasized: that you had the main Rosie the Riveter “We Can Do It” narrative, but that was really just the experience of certain folks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were many other people in society who participated in the war effort but had stories of their own—sometimes experiences that seemed to almost contradict each other. Betty taught us that we could hold and tell all those stories at the same time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Bob, tell us a little bit about her life and how your family thinks about her. Since she reinvented herself every decade, it’s a little bit difficult. But why don’t we start with your childhood—where you were born?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my earliest memories was living in the duplex on Sacramento Street, where the train went down the middle of the street—the train my mother talked about, with workers coming from the South and ending up on that train going to Richmond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would read to me from A. A. Milne’s books. I remember sitting there and having my mother read “Spring Morning,” a wonderful poem. And she sang to me. I’m seeing a picture right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s amazing, too. For those who don’t know, that building housed Reid’s Records, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the building is still there, although the record store is not. It was right on this line where all these people were coming up from the South, and she writes about it in her memoir—having you there on Sacramento Street too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why don’t we talk a little bit about how her life ended, or this period of time near the end, and then we’ll go back into the middle?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Her life ending took a long time. It took quite a while for her to finally give up the ghost because she had strong genes. Her heart was working—everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a year before she died, she kind of decided she didn’t really want to be here anymore and was seeking ways she might be able to exit sooner than her body was allowing her to. But she wound up living another year, hoping to see an election come out better than it did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She lived by birthdays. My sister had her birthday, and then my mother would say, “Okay, that’s it—no more birthdays.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when she finally went, she had a condition that took her into the hospital. We joked about it because she said, “They don’t know what to do with me.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She’s invincible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These people are here to keep people alive, and that is not my goal. And she said, “Don’t let the chaplain come anywhere near me,” because she was a devout atheist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What has it been like to do these public memorials for your mother and have people from these different areas of her life come out and tell you about her—celebrate her? What has that been like for you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s awkward, because she was my mother. I don’t know about your mother, but my mother was someone I wanted to make sure I was not like. I spent most of my life trying not to be her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was young, I was Mel Reid’s son, then I was Betty Reid’s son. Then I left for many years, and for a while she was Bob Reid’s mother. Then this Park Service thing happened, and everywhere I went, I was Betty Reid’s son again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sorry, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, right. What an incredible arc to it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, did you anticipate—when she was hired—because she was already quite old when she became a ranger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. To be clear, I did not hire her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay—Wendy Parsons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. She was in her eighties—around 2007 or so. Most people don’t necessarily plan in their eighties to take on an entirely new career and become a park ranger, but she specifically did that in order to tell her story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was working for a state assemblywoman at the time the park was being conceived and planned, and she got involved in the planning. She shared her experience on the World War II home front, and she wanted to keep telling that story. The park wanted her to keep telling it as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she opted to put on the uniform and became a park ranger at about the age of eighty-five.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What was her experience on the home front?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was not actually someone who worked in a shipyard. She used to say she never saw a ship being built. But there were many different types of home front jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She worked as a file clerk for the auxiliary of what was at the time the segregated Boilermakers union. Back in 1942, only white men could really be part of the union. Even white women—and certainly anyone who was not white—were not allowed to officially be part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they had these auxiliary organizations for people working with the union but not in the union. She worked as a clerk in that segregated union office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even that gives you some texture. It’s easy to think of the Kaiser Shipyards or the Oakland dry docks, but there were so many other jobs along the waterfront too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah. There were about two dozen different defense industries in the Bay Area at that time. She used to joke that she was “filing address cards for democracy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in all seriousness, that was the amazing part about the World War II home front effort. You had kids, women—everyone who couldn’t go to war was on the home front doing something: collecting stockings, recycling nylon, all kinds of activities. Everyone was pulling together, trying to help us “outproduce the enemy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had troops overseas fighting the war, but we needed to produce the weapons, supplies, and equipment to support them. Our ability to do that as a country really helped turn the tide of the war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about Betty Reid Soskin, the nation’s oldest park ranger. She died at the age of 104. We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid, and by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service and Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, March 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Betty Reid Soskin was a civil rights pioneer, musician, and the nation’s oldest park ranger when, at the age of 100, she retired from Richmond’s Rosie the Riveter museum where she was dedicated to keeping experiences of Black Americans and women in the forefront of the historical narrative. She worked in the segregated homefront during World War II, was among the first Black families to integrate Walnut Creek, and she ran one of the first Black-owned record stores in the Bay Area. She died in December at 104 years old and as part of our Bay Area Legends series, we’ll listen back to Forum’s interviews with Soskin over the years and talk with those who loved her and worked with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I don’t have too many journalistic regrets, but one of them is that I never got a chance to interview Betty Reid Soskin. Soskin became nationally famous as a park ranger at the Rosie the Riveter Museum in Richmond, but I first encountered her through her blog. Yes—she was a prolific blogger beginning in 2003.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually just learned that she went to an Al Gore internet conference in Silicon Valley, which is one way she got tipped off to the internet. This was a person who adapted to her times, but also shaped them. She died late last year and recently had a memorial at the theater at the Kaiser Auditorium. We wanted to recognize her this morning here on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, too, as a Bay Area legend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid—musician and activist. Thank you so much, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service. She was Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor at the Rosie the Riveter/World War II Home Front National Historical Park. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bob, just before we get into hearing your mother’s voice—because she came on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> several times over the years—what was she like? If she were sitting here in this chair, what would we think about Betty Reid Soskin?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My mother would have been different people at different times in her life. She changed every decade—kind of wiped her slate clean and reinvented herself. So she would have said something appropriate, something she had thought out very carefully, and it would have been worth hearing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Let’s listen to her. She witnessed a ton of history. She worked on the home front during World War II, which we’re going to hear about, but she was also present in Washington, D.C., for Barack Obama’s inauguration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So from the archives, here’s Betty Reid Soskin talking about that moment in 2015 with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Reid Soskin (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m more aware, now in my nineties, of being an evolving person in an evolving nation than I could have been at seventy-five. That’s what I’m impressed with now—that I have seen so much change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m aware that every generation has to recreate democracy in its time. But on January 20th, 2009, I’m a seated guest of George Miller on the Capitol Mall, with a picture of my great-grandmother, who was born in 1846 into slavery and was enslaved until she was nineteen—freed by the Emancipation Proclamation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s an amazing thing, because my grandmother lived to be 102, which means that when she died—since I was born in 1921—I was a grown woman, married with children, twenty-seven years old, when my enslaved ancestor died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m sitting there with a picture in my pocket watching the inauguration of the first African American president, in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial, whose life was contemporary with the life of my great-grandmother. That’s how fast the time goes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was Betty Reid Soskin in 2015, in her nineties at that time, talking with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, you know, she contained history. She was history. Bob Reid, clearly there are some good longevity genes in the family. But Kelli, tell me what it was like having someone who could embody this history while also teaching it to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, it was incredible—an amazing phenomenon to have her. She really was a phenomenon. She was both a gifted storyteller, as you just heard, as well as a living primary source.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, she used to joke sometimes that she had outlived all the people whose memories did not align with her own—which we laughed about, but we also really utilized at the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of history in those World War II years, and there’s certainly the dominant narrative of Rosie the Riveter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everyone came together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes—everyone came together. But everyone was having a different experience, even as they were coming together. And I think that’s what she really emphasized: that you had the main Rosie the Riveter “We Can Do It” narrative, but that was really just the experience of certain folks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were many other people in society who participated in the war effort but had stories of their own—sometimes experiences that seemed to almost contradict each other. Betty taught us that we could hold and tell all those stories at the same time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Bob, tell us a little bit about her life and how your family thinks about her. Since she reinvented herself every decade, it’s a little bit difficult. But why don’t we start with your childhood—where you were born?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my earliest memories was living in the duplex on Sacramento Street, where the train went down the middle of the street—the train my mother talked about, with workers coming from the South and ending up on that train going to Richmond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would read to me from A. A. Milne’s books. I remember sitting there and having my mother read “Spring Morning,” a wonderful poem. And she sang to me. I’m seeing a picture right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s amazing, too. For those who don’t know, that building housed Reid’s Records, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the building is still there, although the record store is not. It was right on this line where all these people were coming up from the South, and she writes about it in her memoir—having you there on Sacramento Street too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why don’t we talk a little bit about how her life ended, or this period of time near the end, and then we’ll go back into the middle?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Her life ending took a long time. It took quite a while for her to finally give up the ghost because she had strong genes. Her heart was working—everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a year before she died, she kind of decided she didn’t really want to be here anymore and was seeking ways she might be able to exit sooner than her body was allowing her to. But she wound up living another year, hoping to see an election come out better than it did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She lived by birthdays. My sister had her birthday, and then my mother would say, “Okay, that’s it—no more birthdays.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when she finally went, she had a condition that took her into the hospital. We joked about it because she said, “They don’t know what to do with me.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She’s invincible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These people are here to keep people alive, and that is not my goal. And she said, “Don’t let the chaplain come anywhere near me,” because she was a devout atheist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What has it been like to do these public memorials for your mother and have people from these different areas of her life come out and tell you about her—celebrate her? What has that been like for you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s awkward, because she was my mother. I don’t know about your mother, but my mother was someone I wanted to make sure I was not like. I spent most of my life trying not to be her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was young, I was Mel Reid’s son, then I was Betty Reid’s son. Then I left for many years, and for a while she was Bob Reid’s mother. Then this Park Service thing happened, and everywhere I went, I was Betty Reid’s son again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sorry, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, right. What an incredible arc to it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, did you anticipate—when she was hired—because she was already quite old when she became a ranger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. To be clear, I did not hire her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay—Wendy Parsons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. She was in her eighties—around 2007 or so. Most people don’t necessarily plan in their eighties to take on an entirely new career and become a park ranger, but she specifically did that in order to tell her story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was working for a state assemblywoman at the time the park was being conceived and planned, and she got involved in the planning. She shared her experience on the World War II home front, and she wanted to keep telling that story. The park wanted her to keep telling it as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she opted to put on the uniform and became a park ranger at about the age of eighty-five.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What was her experience on the home front?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was not actually someone who worked in a shipyard. She used to say she never saw a ship being built. But there were many different types of home front jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She worked as a file clerk for the auxiliary of what was at the time the segregated Boilermakers union. Back in 1942, only white men could really be part of the union. Even white women—and certainly anyone who was not white—were not allowed to officially be part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they had these auxiliary organizations for people working with the union but not in the union. She worked as a clerk in that segregated union office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even that gives you some texture. It’s easy to think of the Kaiser Shipyards or the Oakland dry docks, but there were so many other jobs along the waterfront too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah. There were about two dozen different defense industries in the Bay Area at that time. She used to joke that she was “filing address cards for democracy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in all seriousness, that was the amazing part about the World War II home front effort. You had kids, women—everyone who couldn’t go to war was on the home front doing something: collecting stockings, recycling nylon, all kinds of activities. Everyone was pulling together, trying to help us “outproduce the enemy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had troops overseas fighting the war, but we needed to produce the weapons, supplies, and equipment to support them. Our ability to do that as a country really helped turn the tide of the war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about Betty Reid Soskin, the nation’s oldest park ranger. She died at the age of 104. We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid, and by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service and Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the weekend, San Francisco’s public school teachers voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike. The dispute is centered on pay, health benefits, and support for special education, all at a time when the district has been facing financial headwinds so dire that the state has contemplated stepping in to run the district. We’ll get the latest on the labor negotiations and talk about what a potential strike, which could begin as early as February 9, means for teachers, the district, students and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related Link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://San%20Francisco%20Teachers%20Strike:%20What%20Should%20Families%20Know?\">San Francisco Teachers Strike: What Should Families Know?\u003c/a>, KQED\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfusd-teachers-strike-21331694.php\">San Francisco teacher strike looms, with school closures possible\u003c/a>, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"709\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"305\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"317\" data-end=\"324\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There have been a bunch of teacher strikes over the last few years — West Contra Costa, Oakland, others around the state — but it’s been literally decades since the last teacher strike in San Francisco. Up first this morning, we’ve got San Francisco Chronicle K–12 education reporter Jill Tucker with us to catch us up on how we got to this point. Welcome, Jill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"752\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"727\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Nice to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"774\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, okay — where are we? How long have they been bargaining? What’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"1199\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"870\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Yes. So, the San Francisco Unified School District and the teachers union have been bargaining for almost a year. They’ve gone through all of the steps of bargaining, from impasse to a mediator to fact-finding. And now they are at the very, very last step and on the brink of a strike, waiting today for the fact-finding report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1201\" data-end=\"1547\">Once that report comes out — which is expected today — that is the final moment when the union and the district can come to terms. And at that point, the union, which has already voted overwhelmingly to strike, can set a date for a strike. They typically have to give 48 hours’ notice. So if that happens, we could see a strike as soon as Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1569\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This fact-finding report — will it change anything, you think? What will be in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"2003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"1673\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> So the fact-finding report is based on the two sides coming together with a neutral third party and presenting their perspective on the budget and their perspective on what they believe to be a realistic contract — based on salary, benefits, all of the compensation, whether that’s class size or sabbaticals or health care plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2005\" data-end=\"2381\">And then the fact-finder goes back and looks at all the information and provides recommendations for a contract based on the issues that are still outstanding. Both sides can either accept those recommendations or ignore them. So it’s supposed to give something of a common ground, or at least a neutral third party’s perspective on the information that was presented to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2383\" data-end=\"2467\">But both sides can ignore it. It really has no holding power. It’s basically advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Okay. Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle, here with us. I want to add in our first other voice here. Maria Su is superintendent of San Francisco Unified School District. Welcome, Maria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2725\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2906\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2791\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks for joining us, Superintendent. So from your perspective, what are the sticking points in this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"3132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"2921\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, first, I just want to say that we don’t want to strike. I just want to be clear — we don’t want to strike. We want to work with our educators and get to a resolution. I firmly believe we are really close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3134\" data-end=\"3420\">We know that the number-one priority we’re hearing from our educators is the very expensive cost of health care, particularly family health care. And last Friday, in our fact-finding meeting, we were able to come up with a really creative solution to fully cover family health benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3442\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is that creative solution?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3489\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, we were using — these are very technical terms — restricted funds that are restricted to pay for salaries and for benefits. So we’re using funds that are designated for this type of expenditure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How is that different from what you were doing before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"4030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"3782\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We were using what are called unrestricted sources. In a school district, we have different types of funds that pay for staff. And we know that you can’t use one-time funds to pay for ongoing expenses — and, of course, staff is an ongoing expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4032\" data-end=\"4147\">In this particular situation, we’re looking at all different types of sources because we do want to close the deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4175\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4190\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We are really close. I don’t want to strike, and we’re trying to be creative and meet our educators where they are so that we can get to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4363\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what is the financial state of the district right now? For those who are following loosely but not closely, you’ve got the state doing oversight. What does that mean for you in terms of this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4585\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, a year ago, the district was placed under a certification called a negative certification. What that means is that we do not have enough funding to cover our current-year expenses plus the next two years of expenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4989\">And just for our listeners to understand, 85 percent of our budget pays for staff. So it’s really, really difficult when we’re talking about trying to close a huge budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4991\" data-end=\"5231\">However, last year, we were able to close the deficit. We actually closed a $114 million deficit without having to lay off any of our teachers, because we recognize how important it is to have a qualified educator in every single classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How were you able to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5298\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We had a number of different strategies. One of our largest strategies was to offer an early retirement package. We said thank you so much to all of our employees who have worked for many years in the district, and we said, if you are thinking about retirement in the next couple of years, perhaps you would want to retire now to help us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5639\" data-end=\"5731\">And we did. We got a number of people who said, yes, I’m ready to retire, and I will retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5733\" data-end=\"6030\">We also got to the $114 million in cuts through contract negotiations. We were able to either close some contracts or renegotiate the terms of those contracts. We also got there through operational efficiencies. I had to reduce central office from hundreds of people down to a much smaller number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6060\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6052\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6337\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6075\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> But again, we did that without laying off our educators, because we know that the primary goal — the reason for a school district’s existence — is to educate our students. We want to go back to basics and make sure our students learn reading, math, and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6339\" data-end=\"6437\">That’s why it’s so important for me to offer fully funded family health benefits to our educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6459\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about San Francisco teachers authorizing a strike, which could begin as early as next week, in the ongoing negotiations. We’ve got Maria Su, superintendent with San Francisco Unified School District, with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6684\" data-end=\"6954\">Of course, we want to hear from you. You can give us a call at 866-733-6786. You’re a parent, you’re a teacher, you’re a student — give us a call. 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6859\" data-end=\"6873\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. On social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord — we’re @KQEDForum there as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7139\">You know, the district currently has this rainy-day fund. I think it has $111 million, and you may have a better number than that. Why not use it in this instance? Can it not be used?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7154\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> So we created a special fund — again, technical — called Fund 17. And yes, you can call it a rainy-day fund. Essentially, it’s a set-aside that can be used for emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7329\" data-end=\"7649\">A great example was just what happened a couple of months ago, when we heard that the federal government was going to reduce or cut funding for SNAP programs, which are food subsidies for children and families. The city was able to use its reserve to make sure those benefits continued for our most vulnerable residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7651\" data-end=\"7991\">The same could be said here. These are special emergency funds that can be used in moments of emergency. Just a couple of days ago, we had a swarm of earthquakes. God forbid, if we have an earthquake and something terrible happens to one of our schools, we need to be able to tap into some form of funding to meet the needs of our students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8019\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8034\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> I will also say that our monthly payroll is $69 million. So $111 million in emergency funds would only cover about a month and a half of payroll.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8606\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. Let’s get some listener comments to you. Andrea writes, “It seems like the district is assuming our educators will go on strike and not doing anything to stop it. It sounds like the district never gave the union any written proposals. As a parent of two kids at Sunnyside Elementary, I’m asking you to give the teachers not only an offer, but a good offer. These people help raise our children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8608\" data-end=\"8769\">And I’ve heard this from several different places, Superintendent — that there haven’t been written offers of some of these things, official offers to the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"9026\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8784\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the nature of bargaining. We have shared our creative solutions around fully funding family health benefits, which, by the way, would add anywhere from $1,000 up to $1,600 of cash back into the pockets of our amazing educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9028\" data-end=\"9272\">We did share ideas around augmenting salaries for hard-to-staff special education paraprofessionals, because these are positions that are really difficult to fill. We’ve agreed that we will provide additional incentives to bring on these staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9374\">We’ve also shared that we would like to offer a 6 percent salary increase over the next three years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9376\" data-end=\"9612\">So we have shared. And mind you, we have spent the last 11 months in conversation. Through those 11 months, we have already agreed on a number of items. These are just the last few things we need to get back to the table and figure out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9634\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Stay with us — Superintendent Maria Su with San Francisco Unified, and Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. We’re going to try to get to a couple of calls right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9848\" data-end=\"9937\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9889\" data-end=\"9903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the weekend, San Francisco’s public school teachers voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike. The dispute is centered on pay, health benefits, and support for special education, all at a time when the district has been facing financial headwinds so dire that the state has contemplated stepping in to run the district. We’ll get the latest on the labor negotiations and talk about what a potential strike, which could begin as early as February 9, means for teachers, the district, students and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related Link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://San%20Francisco%20Teachers%20Strike:%20What%20Should%20Families%20Know?\">San Francisco Teachers Strike: What Should Families Know?\u003c/a>, KQED\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfusd-teachers-strike-21331694.php\">San Francisco teacher strike looms, with school closures possible\u003c/a>, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"709\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"305\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"317\" data-end=\"324\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There have been a bunch of teacher strikes over the last few years — West Contra Costa, Oakland, others around the state — but it’s been literally decades since the last teacher strike in San Francisco. Up first this morning, we’ve got San Francisco Chronicle K–12 education reporter Jill Tucker with us to catch us up on how we got to this point. Welcome, Jill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"752\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"727\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Nice to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"774\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, okay — where are we? How long have they been bargaining? What’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"1199\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"870\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Yes. So, the San Francisco Unified School District and the teachers union have been bargaining for almost a year. They’ve gone through all of the steps of bargaining, from impasse to a mediator to fact-finding. And now they are at the very, very last step and on the brink of a strike, waiting today for the fact-finding report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1201\" data-end=\"1547\">Once that report comes out — which is expected today — that is the final moment when the union and the district can come to terms. And at that point, the union, which has already voted overwhelmingly to strike, can set a date for a strike. They typically have to give 48 hours’ notice. So if that happens, we could see a strike as soon as Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1569\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This fact-finding report — will it change anything, you think? What will be in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"2003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"1673\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> So the fact-finding report is based on the two sides coming together with a neutral third party and presenting their perspective on the budget and their perspective on what they believe to be a realistic contract — based on salary, benefits, all of the compensation, whether that’s class size or sabbaticals or health care plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2005\" data-end=\"2381\">And then the fact-finder goes back and looks at all the information and provides recommendations for a contract based on the issues that are still outstanding. Both sides can either accept those recommendations or ignore them. So it’s supposed to give something of a common ground, or at least a neutral third party’s perspective on the information that was presented to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2383\" data-end=\"2467\">But both sides can ignore it. It really has no holding power. It’s basically advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Okay. Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle, here with us. I want to add in our first other voice here. Maria Su is superintendent of San Francisco Unified School District. Welcome, Maria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2725\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2906\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2791\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks for joining us, Superintendent. So from your perspective, what are the sticking points in this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"3132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"2921\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, first, I just want to say that we don’t want to strike. I just want to be clear — we don’t want to strike. We want to work with our educators and get to a resolution. I firmly believe we are really close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3134\" data-end=\"3420\">We know that the number-one priority we’re hearing from our educators is the very expensive cost of health care, particularly family health care. And last Friday, in our fact-finding meeting, we were able to come up with a really creative solution to fully cover family health benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3442\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is that creative solution?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3489\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, we were using — these are very technical terms — restricted funds that are restricted to pay for salaries and for benefits. So we’re using funds that are designated for this type of expenditure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How is that different from what you were doing before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"4030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"3782\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We were using what are called unrestricted sources. In a school district, we have different types of funds that pay for staff. And we know that you can’t use one-time funds to pay for ongoing expenses — and, of course, staff is an ongoing expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4032\" data-end=\"4147\">In this particular situation, we’re looking at all different types of sources because we do want to close the deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4175\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4190\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We are really close. I don’t want to strike, and we’re trying to be creative and meet our educators where they are so that we can get to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4363\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what is the financial state of the district right now? For those who are following loosely but not closely, you’ve got the state doing oversight. What does that mean for you in terms of this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4585\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, a year ago, the district was placed under a certification called a negative certification. What that means is that we do not have enough funding to cover our current-year expenses plus the next two years of expenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4989\">And just for our listeners to understand, 85 percent of our budget pays for staff. So it’s really, really difficult when we’re talking about trying to close a huge budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4991\" data-end=\"5231\">However, last year, we were able to close the deficit. We actually closed a $114 million deficit without having to lay off any of our teachers, because we recognize how important it is to have a qualified educator in every single classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How were you able to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5298\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We had a number of different strategies. One of our largest strategies was to offer an early retirement package. We said thank you so much to all of our employees who have worked for many years in the district, and we said, if you are thinking about retirement in the next couple of years, perhaps you would want to retire now to help us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5639\" data-end=\"5731\">And we did. We got a number of people who said, yes, I’m ready to retire, and I will retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5733\" data-end=\"6030\">We also got to the $114 million in cuts through contract negotiations. We were able to either close some contracts or renegotiate the terms of those contracts. We also got there through operational efficiencies. I had to reduce central office from hundreds of people down to a much smaller number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6060\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6052\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6337\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6075\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> But again, we did that without laying off our educators, because we know that the primary goal — the reason for a school district’s existence — is to educate our students. We want to go back to basics and make sure our students learn reading, math, and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6339\" data-end=\"6437\">That’s why it’s so important for me to offer fully funded family health benefits to our educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6459\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about San Francisco teachers authorizing a strike, which could begin as early as next week, in the ongoing negotiations. We’ve got Maria Su, superintendent with San Francisco Unified School District, with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6684\" data-end=\"6954\">Of course, we want to hear from you. You can give us a call at 866-733-6786. You’re a parent, you’re a teacher, you’re a student — give us a call. 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6859\" data-end=\"6873\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. On social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord — we’re @KQEDForum there as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7139\">You know, the district currently has this rainy-day fund. I think it has $111 million, and you may have a better number than that. Why not use it in this instance? Can it not be used?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7154\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> So we created a special fund — again, technical — called Fund 17. And yes, you can call it a rainy-day fund. Essentially, it’s a set-aside that can be used for emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7329\" data-end=\"7649\">A great example was just what happened a couple of months ago, when we heard that the federal government was going to reduce or cut funding for SNAP programs, which are food subsidies for children and families. The city was able to use its reserve to make sure those benefits continued for our most vulnerable residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7651\" data-end=\"7991\">The same could be said here. These are special emergency funds that can be used in moments of emergency. Just a couple of days ago, we had a swarm of earthquakes. God forbid, if we have an earthquake and something terrible happens to one of our schools, we need to be able to tap into some form of funding to meet the needs of our students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8019\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8034\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> I will also say that our monthly payroll is $69 million. So $111 million in emergency funds would only cover about a month and a half of payroll.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8606\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. Let’s get some listener comments to you. Andrea writes, “It seems like the district is assuming our educators will go on strike and not doing anything to stop it. It sounds like the district never gave the union any written proposals. As a parent of two kids at Sunnyside Elementary, I’m asking you to give the teachers not only an offer, but a good offer. These people help raise our children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8608\" data-end=\"8769\">And I’ve heard this from several different places, Superintendent — that there haven’t been written offers of some of these things, official offers to the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"9026\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8784\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the nature of bargaining. We have shared our creative solutions around fully funding family health benefits, which, by the way, would add anywhere from $1,000 up to $1,600 of cash back into the pockets of our amazing educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9028\" data-end=\"9272\">We did share ideas around augmenting salaries for hard-to-staff special education paraprofessionals, because these are positions that are really difficult to fill. We’ve agreed that we will provide additional incentives to bring on these staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9374\">We’ve also shared that we would like to offer a 6 percent salary increase over the next three years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9376\" data-end=\"9612\">So we have shared. And mind you, we have spent the last 11 months in conversation. Through those 11 months, we have already agreed on a number of items. These are just the last few things we need to get back to the table and figure out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9634\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Stay with us — Superintendent Maria Su with San Francisco Unified, and Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. We’re going to try to get to a couple of calls right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9848\" data-end=\"9937\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9889\" data-end=\"9903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-the-bay-areas-gay-bars-became-a-battleground-for-lgtbq-rights-in-the-1950s",
"title": "How the Bay Area’s Gay Bars Became a Battleground for LGBTQ+ Rights in the 1950s",
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"headTitle": "How the Bay Area’s Gay Bars Became a Battleground for LGBTQ+ Rights in the 1950s | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> has an international reputation as a haven of freedom and culture for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">LGBTQ+\u003c/a> community. And with good reason.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco elected \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11706248/40-years-after-assassinations-assessing-the-legacies-of-harvey-milk-and-george-moscone\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>, California’s first openly gay public official. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11876846/never-take-it-down-the-original-1978-rainbow-flag-returns-to-sf\">the birthplace of the rainbow pride flag\u003c/a>, now a global symbol. The city has also long had an iconic drag queen scene and legendary nightlife with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930323/san-francisco-gay-bars-history-silver-rail-febes-black-cat\">a long history of bustling gay\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929998/historic-lesbian-bars-san-francisco-mauds-pegs-front-anns-monas-440-tommy-vasu\">lesbian bars\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Bay Area was not always this way. The LGBTQ+ community had to fight for these freedoms and safe spaces. Often, this fight was against oppressive policing from the state and local government. And some important moments in that fight happened in unexpected places, like Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, whoa, it says this was in Pacifica! Why have I never heard of it?” Bay Curious listener Henry Lie asked. He’d stumbled across mention of a 1956 police raid at a bar called Hazel’s Inn, where nearly a hundred queer folks were arrested. He wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Progress and repression of LGBTQ+ rights\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco,” said Nan Alamilla Boyd, an oral historian at the UC Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. As a longtime researcher of San Francisco’s LGBTQ+ history, Boyd has interviewed dozens of queer individuals who frequented gay bars during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her interviews uncover stories of the Bay Area’s history, especially the repression queer people faced in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069459\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069459\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-1536x899.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building once housed Hazel’s Inn. This photo was taken in 1966, when the city condemned the building. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of The Pacifica Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these people [I interviewed] witnessed front row seats to [this repressive era], and kept being as out and proud as possible and survived to tell about it,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1951, the California State Board of Equalization revoked the liquor license of the Black Cat Cafe, a popular gay bar, because the establishment was “injurious to public morals.” The Black Cat owner, Sol Stouman, appealed the move to the California Supreme Court. The court ruled in his favor, affirming that the presence of LGBTQ+ people in a bar was allowable, as long as there were no “immoral acts” taking place. The case is known as Stoumen v. Reilly and many historians see it as the first legal victory for the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts,” Boyd explained. “I know it seems really regressive now, but the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t status that was illegal, it was behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the first time, LGBTQ+ people had the protected right to gather at bars without facing prosecution for simply being a queer person in public. And so queer nightlife blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were maybe four or five ‘lesbian bars’ in North Beach within walking distance of each other at any point in time between 1948 and 1955,” Boyd said.[aside postID=news_12029551 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250205-WildSideWest-21-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg']But just a few years later, the U.S. government started targeting the LGBTQ+ community. Now known as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/state-department-gay-employees-outed-fired-lavender-scare\">Lavender Scare\u003c/a>, many of the freedoms enjoyed in the early 50s came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work for immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.” And in California, a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was created in 1955. Known as the ABC, its job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral \u003c/em>codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Things really changed in 1955,” Boyd said. The ABC began waging a war against gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency found ways to undermine the protections previously won by the LGBTQ+ community in Stouman v. Reilly. Since “homosexual acts” were still illegal, suddenly the state was very concerned about specific actions taking place in bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a question about what exactly [were] the behaviors that [were] illegal,” Boyd said. “Do you have to see someone having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about dancing close? So, all this stuff then started being hashed out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With each enforcement action against queer bar patrons, the ABC expanded the definition of illegal acts. Soon, even dancing with someone of the same sex was punishable. The ABC even collaborated with local law enforcement agencies to conduct undercover surveillance operations that identified and monitored LGBTQ gathering spots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe. And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBTQ+ community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars. The community ended up down the coast, where they made Hazel’s Inn their spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Hazel’s Inn raid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early hours of Feb. 19, 1956, a group of 35 ABC and San Mateo County Sheriff’s officers stormed into a full and bustling Hazel’s Inn. There were around 200 patrons present in the bar, mostly men, when the sheriff jumped onto the bar and announced, “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ninety people were arrested that night, including the bar’s owner, Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069461\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2125px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069461\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2125\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg 2125w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-2000x2409.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-160x193.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1275x1536.jpg 1275w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1700x2048.jpg 1700w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2125px) 100vw, 2125px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Coverage of the Hazel’s Inn raid from the San Francisco Chronicle in 1956. It was common, at the time, for newspapers to use derogatory language in reference to the LGBTQ community. \u003ccite>(The San Francisco Chronicle via Newsbank)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn had been under state surveillance for months, and patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents who had been watching them. One by one, agents picked out those they had seen showing queer affection. Most of those arrested faced vagrancy charges. Nikola’s liquor license was quickly revoked for knowingly hosting a hangout for queer people and for serving an underage person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-20-february-1956-smt-hazels-i/10556199/\">\u003cem>The San Mateo Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a> asked Sheriff Earl Whitmore about the raid, he said, “Let it be known that we are not going to tolerate gatherings of homosexuals in the county.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The full extent of the ABC’s operation at Hazel’s Inn became clear as the case was brought before\u003ca href=\"https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AHSI&u=glbths&id=GALE%7CMDRLJF555849529&v=2.1&it=r&sid=bookmark-AHSI&sPage=11&asid=6014d9b9\"> the ABC Board\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-court-of-appeal/1810632.html\">court\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In court documents, Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described the scene at Hazel’s Inn the night of the raid and in the months leading up to it. Strong described how one male patron sat on another man’s lap and how two others were seen holding hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple was seen embracing as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These scenes of queerness would be used in court to justify the revocation of Nikola’s liquor license for being a “resort for sexual perverts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While most of those arrested that night were cleared of charges, the damage had already been done. Newspapers caught wind of the raid, and patrons were publicly outed, with their names, occupations and home addresses published for all to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were so fearful,” Boyd said. “There were [LGBTQ+ people] who would never go out because they were afraid of getting arrested. And then [their] name would be in the paper and [their] life would be ruined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hazel’s Inn raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the following 15 years. Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses were all part of a strategy to push LGBTQ+ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Resistance amidst repression\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Looking back at this history of aggressive policing against queer people and their bars, it’s no surprise that queer nightlife continues to be central to the LGBTQ+ community. For many, gay bars were the only spaces they were afforded the freedom to be openly queer. They were also the battlegrounds where civil rights were won and lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the fight for LGBTQ+ rights continues. As the federal government uses its power to withhold \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049666/nowhere-else-to-go-sf-families-protest-kaisers-new-limits-on-gender-affirming-care\">gender-affirming healthcare\u003c/a> and to target\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12047432/us-sues-california-over-its-refusal-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-girls-sports\"> transgender youth in sports\u003c/a>, Boyd said it can be hard to keep hope alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12068581\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12068581\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nan Alamilla Boyd, a historian, poses for a portrait at the GLBT Historical Society Archives in San Francisco on Jan. 2, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The hits [to LGBTQ+ rights] keep coming and in many different ways,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, her work has taught her that in times of repression, powerful political organizing and cultural innovation can emerge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By the early 1960s, [queer] bartenders and the bar owners had pretty elaborate methods to resist the policing agencies,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They created a resistance movement powerful enough to outlast the government’s efforts to eradicate queer nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t really make cultural innovation illegal because it happens,” Boyd said. “It’s everything, everywhere, all at once. It’s the thing that’s our spirit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s because of that indomitable spirit that the Bay Area looks and feels the way it does today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12063643 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251008-GirlintheFishbowl-01-BL.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>San Francisco and its surrounding Bay Area have long been known as a gay capital of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, it’s here, where the first lesbian civil rights group was formed, the Daughters of Bilitis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And where Harvey Milk became an iconic gay public official! [tape]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harvey Milk:\u003c/strong> I will fight to represent my constituents. I will fight to represent the city and county of San Francisco. I will fight to give those people who once walked away hope, so that those people will walk back in. Thank you very much. [clapping]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It was the birthplace of the Gay pride flag. And it’s where city hall is lit up in a rainbow for pride month. This is the Bay Area that our question asker, Henry Lie, knows well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music stops\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie: \u003c/strong>I’m originally from Pacifica…went to high school at Terranova High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry always thought of Pacifica as an extension of San Francisco — it’s just a few miles south, after all. And, there’s not a whole lot that surprises Henry about his hometown. That is until he learned about a moment in Pacifica’s history that left him with a ton of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> We have this museum.. I think I was there and saw like a footnote or something and it just said like, oh yeah, Hazel’s Inn raid where, you know, there was a large gathering of LGBTQ+ identifying people and a bunch of people were arrested, couple of people charged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry had stumbled across a forgotten moment in history — a massive police raid that took place in 1956, part of a crusade to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ominous music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local newspapers documented the raid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 1: \u003c/strong>San Francisco Examiner: Ninety persons, mostly men, were booked at the San Mateo County jail yesterday after a vice raid on a tavern suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 2: \u003c/strong>San Mateo Times: The raid, according to Sheriff Whitmore, “was to let homosexuals know we’re not going to tolerate their congregation in this county.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 3: \u003c/strong>Redwood City Tribune: Mrs. Nicola, owner of Hazel’s Inn, is charged with operating a resort for sexual deviates. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big questions began surfacing for Henry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> And I was like, whoa, I’ve never even heard of Hazel’s Inn. This says this was in Pacifica. Why have I never heard of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So he came to Bay Curious, hoping to find out more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Could you dive deeper into the Hazel’s Inn raid in Pacifica and the effects that it had on the LGBTQ plus community in the greater Bay area in the late 1950s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. This week, we’re going back to the gay bars of the 1950s to learn about a moment in time when the San Francisco Bay Area was far less welcoming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that coming right up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To dig deeper into Bay Area queer history, KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral takes us to Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Pacifica is a beautiful place, with sprawling views of the ocean and stunning beaches. It has that small town feel, complete with a\u003cem> tiny\u003c/em> museum showcasing its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This is our little museum…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Laura Del Rosso was born and raised in Pacifica, and serves as a docent and board member for the Pacifica Coastside Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This whole area around here was full of speakeasies, taverns, restaurants, and brothels during Prohibition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>It seems hard to imagine now, but this small town was once infamous for its nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso: \u003c/strong>Some people think that San Mateo County coast was actually the wettest place in the whole United States, meaning there was more booze here and in Half Moon Bay area than anywhere else in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>While the historical society has long been aware of the clandestine nightlife during Prohibition, it wasn’t until a few years ago that they started uncovering the history of a hushed queer nightlife scene that took hold right here, in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Jazzy music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Hazel’s Inn was a tavern in Sharp Park, now a neighborhood in Pacifica. ^The bar is long gone^, but in 1956 the Pacifica Tribune, described it as a large and homey space, with knick-nacks above a mahogany bar, a shuffle board, a dance floor and a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn was owned and run by Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> From what we understand then, after she got a divorce she was running the place by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the place was popular! Sometimes there were up to 500 patrons in a weekend. For a long time it catered mostly to locals and tourists on holiday at the beach, but then in 1955 and 56, the LGBT community made it \u003cem>their\u003c/em> spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> When the gay men started coming from San Francisco, she welcomed them. And she was non-judgmental. However, it’s obvious that somebody was not happy and did contact the sheriff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But before we can get to that night — the night of the Hazel’s Inn raid — we have to ask why here? Miles from San Francisco, hidden in a small town, far from any other gay nightlife, why was Hazel’s Inn the place that attracted hundreds of LGBTQ people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>To answer this question, I went to the archives at the GLBT historical society — where collections documenting the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Trans community are housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, I met Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd. She’s an oral historian with the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>I was professor of women and gender studies at San Francisco State for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She’s one of the few people who has researched queer nightlife in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> 1956, 90 persons, mostly men were booked at the San Mateo county jail…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>At the archives we read some of the newspaper clippings about Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> Suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She did a lot of her research back in the 1990s and was able to interview dozens of queer people who lived in the Bay Area in the 1940s and 50s. Most of them have since passed away, so her work and these archives are some of the last links to this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the 1940s, San Francisco already had a queer nightlife scene, but at the time it was illegal to be gay. And bars that were caught serving queer people… that was illegal too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> If you were not a legal kind of person, then you couldn’t like buy a drink in a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But the law changed in 1951— when the Black Cat Cafe, in San Francisco, had its liquor license suspended for serving members of the LGBT community. The owner appealed the decision to the California Supreme court. The case is known as Stouman vs. Riley and it’s a big moment in queer civil rights history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>The court agreed. And the ruling became one of the first civil rights protections for LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the first time, they had the protected right to assemble. Gay men and lesbian women could buy drinks at bars and hang out with other queer friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is as long as there were no homosexual acts taking place that were deemed “illegal or immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many legal decisions, it was a vague but powerful protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> I know it seems really regressive now, right? But the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t Status that was illegal, it was behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And so queer nightlife in the Bay Area blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> In the early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And really iconic gay bars came into the picture. The Black Cat Cafe was running again, Tommy’s Place and Ann’s 440 opened. And these places became sanctuaries for the LGBT community to be \u003cem>together. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There were maybe four or five quote unquote lesbian bars in North Beach in walking distance of each other at any point in time between like, let’s say, 1948 and 1955. So it’s like a really interesting community that evolved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And this was really important because in the 1950s it was still not super safe to be gay. Many queer folks were closeted by day in order to keep their jobs. But at night…at the bar…there was a freedom that didn’t really exist anywhere else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> And it was before the state caught wind of what was happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But then a panic started to take hold in the United States…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Are you a member of the communist conspiracy as of this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>A conservative mindset took hold in American politics and culture — ushering in a time of suspicion and fear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Our nation may very well die, and I ask you caused it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And quickly, LGBT people become \u003cu>targets\u003c/u> at the federal, state and local level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work, labeling them as having immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, in 1955 \u003cem>California\u003c/em> created a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control or the ABC. An agency whose sole job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral\u003c/em> codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from the moment the department of Alcoholic Beverage control was created a top priority for them was to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>Shut down the gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And they did this by finding ways around those vague protections won in the Stouman v. Riley case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While queer people were granted the right to assemble, “homosexual acts” were still illegal, so authorities started taking an interest in the specifics of what that meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There’s a question about like, well then what exactly are the behaviors that are illegal? Like, do you have to like see someone, having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about holding hands? What about dancing close? So all this stuff was like, then started being hashed out, you know, this is an illegal act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control started collaborating with a bunch of law enforcement agencies throughout the Bay Area to ferret out people engaged in those acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBT community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars, and they ended up down the coast, at Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound design of a raucous bar scene\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only testimonies about what happened on Feb. 19, 1956, the night that Hazel’s Inn was raided, come from court documents and hearings at the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described in detail what was happening at the bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That night, the dance floor was alive, and the bar was filled with around 200 patrons, mostly men. These men wrapped their arms around each other and embraced one another while dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also described how one patron sat on another man’s lap and how two other men held hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple embraced as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It sounds like a scene of queer joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music turns tense\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, 35 law enforcement agents stormed the bar — a mix of San Mateo county sheriff’s officers and ABC agents began arresting people. The sheriff jumped on to the bar and announced:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over:\u003c/strong> “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents. And one by one, agents picked out people they had seen showing queer affection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Boyd says that the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board had been watching Hazel’s Inn for months, gathering evidence and building a case that behavior there was “illegal and immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>They had undercover agents in the bars. And they would go in twos or threes and they would watch each other. And somebody would get an interested person, and then would sort of lead them on, until there was some kind of physical, sexual, or flirtatious engagement that involved touching. It was entrapment. And that was a common and acceptable practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Ninety people were arrested that night at Hazel’s Inn, including Hazel Nikola — the owner. The bar’s liquor license was quickly revoked for being quote “a resort for sexual perverts” and for serving someone underaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mass arrest caught the attention of a variety of civil rights groups, including the ACLU who represented 30 defendants. Most of those arrested were cleared of charges, but the damage had already been done. People were outed in the newspapers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There would be a list of the people and their address and sometimes their occupation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over: \u003c/strong>The San Mateo Times: Local persons arrested were: Iris Ann Glasgow, 24 years old. Clerk. 1515 James Street, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Many of these people were publicly named as “sexual perverts”. That often meant being ostracized or losing their job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> People were so fearful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cello music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>As for the bar, Hazel fought the revocation of her liquor license for\u003cem> two years \u003c/em>but the court ultimately sided with the ABC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> I think she was just really bitter about what happened here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the Pacifica Coastside museum, Laura reflected on what the raid did to Hazel Nikola.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> She lost her liquor license and things just kind of went downhill for her. You have that information on the thing. And she ended up, she ended closing. She was very, very bitter at the end. She felt like she was really an important part of the community and that they had kind of betrayed her. She left Sharp Park and went to live somewhere else. And never came back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the queer community, the effects were even more devastating. The Hazel’s Inn Raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the next 15 years. (Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses.) It was a strategy to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it didn’t work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this aggressive policing and repression, the gay bars never died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Queer patrons, and bartenders, and bar owners found ways to keep going. They found ways to spot surveillance in their bars, they organized and worked to keep the police out of their spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historian Dr. Boyd again:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> My takeaway from history as a historian is that during these times of repression. There’s cultural innovation that happens. You can’t really name it yet, right? But it’s taking shape you know, that there’s something coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>During those years of extreme repression, queer activists were making connections, organizing, and laying the groundwork for the next several decades of activism that would see LGBTQ rights expand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has changed a lot since the raid at Hazel’s Inn. But still, a fearless commitment to community and authenticity — the spirit that kept these gay bars alive — lives on here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Ana De Almeida Amaral. Featuring the voices of Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, Carly Severn, Christopher Beale and Paul Lancour for archival material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know that Bay Curious listeners help choose which questions we answer on the podcast? Each month we have a new voting round up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, with three fascinating questions to choose from. This month…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1: \u003c/strong>Did the Navy airship America crash land into several houses? What happened to the crew?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why is San Francisco home to so many federal and statewide courts? Why aren’t they in Sacramento or Los Angeles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I want to learn more about San Francisco upzoning and how people feel about it in the Richmond and Sunset districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cast your vote with one click at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Become a member today at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">kqed.org/donate\u003c/a>. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Matt Morales, Tim Olsen, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> has an international reputation as a haven of freedom and culture for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">LGBTQ+\u003c/a> community. And with good reason.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco elected \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11706248/40-years-after-assassinations-assessing-the-legacies-of-harvey-milk-and-george-moscone\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>, California’s first openly gay public official. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11876846/never-take-it-down-the-original-1978-rainbow-flag-returns-to-sf\">the birthplace of the rainbow pride flag\u003c/a>, now a global symbol. The city has also long had an iconic drag queen scene and legendary nightlife with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930323/san-francisco-gay-bars-history-silver-rail-febes-black-cat\">a long history of bustling gay\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929998/historic-lesbian-bars-san-francisco-mauds-pegs-front-anns-monas-440-tommy-vasu\">lesbian bars\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Bay Area was not always this way. The LGBTQ+ community had to fight for these freedoms and safe spaces. Often, this fight was against oppressive policing from the state and local government. And some important moments in that fight happened in unexpected places, like Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, whoa, it says this was in Pacifica! Why have I never heard of it?” Bay Curious listener Henry Lie asked. He’d stumbled across mention of a 1956 police raid at a bar called Hazel’s Inn, where nearly a hundred queer folks were arrested. He wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Progress and repression of LGBTQ+ rights\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco,” said Nan Alamilla Boyd, an oral historian at the UC Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. As a longtime researcher of San Francisco’s LGBTQ+ history, Boyd has interviewed dozens of queer individuals who frequented gay bars during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her interviews uncover stories of the Bay Area’s history, especially the repression queer people faced in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069459\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069459\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-1536x899.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building once housed Hazel’s Inn. This photo was taken in 1966, when the city condemned the building. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of The Pacifica Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these people [I interviewed] witnessed front row seats to [this repressive era], and kept being as out and proud as possible and survived to tell about it,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1951, the California State Board of Equalization revoked the liquor license of the Black Cat Cafe, a popular gay bar, because the establishment was “injurious to public morals.” The Black Cat owner, Sol Stouman, appealed the move to the California Supreme Court. The court ruled in his favor, affirming that the presence of LGBTQ+ people in a bar was allowable, as long as there were no “immoral acts” taking place. The case is known as Stoumen v. Reilly and many historians see it as the first legal victory for the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts,” Boyd explained. “I know it seems really regressive now, but the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t status that was illegal, it was behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the first time, LGBTQ+ people had the protected right to gather at bars without facing prosecution for simply being a queer person in public. And so queer nightlife blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were maybe four or five ‘lesbian bars’ in North Beach within walking distance of each other at any point in time between 1948 and 1955,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>But just a few years later, the U.S. government started targeting the LGBTQ+ community. Now known as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/state-department-gay-employees-outed-fired-lavender-scare\">Lavender Scare\u003c/a>, many of the freedoms enjoyed in the early 50s came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work for immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.” And in California, a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was created in 1955. Known as the ABC, its job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral \u003c/em>codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Things really changed in 1955,” Boyd said. The ABC began waging a war against gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency found ways to undermine the protections previously won by the LGBTQ+ community in Stouman v. Reilly. Since “homosexual acts” were still illegal, suddenly the state was very concerned about specific actions taking place in bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a question about what exactly [were] the behaviors that [were] illegal,” Boyd said. “Do you have to see someone having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about dancing close? So, all this stuff then started being hashed out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With each enforcement action against queer bar patrons, the ABC expanded the definition of illegal acts. Soon, even dancing with someone of the same sex was punishable. The ABC even collaborated with local law enforcement agencies to conduct undercover surveillance operations that identified and monitored LGBTQ gathering spots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe. And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBTQ+ community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars. The community ended up down the coast, where they made Hazel’s Inn their spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Hazel’s Inn raid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early hours of Feb. 19, 1956, a group of 35 ABC and San Mateo County Sheriff’s officers stormed into a full and bustling Hazel’s Inn. There were around 200 patrons present in the bar, mostly men, when the sheriff jumped onto the bar and announced, “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ninety people were arrested that night, including the bar’s owner, Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069461\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2125px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069461\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2125\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg 2125w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-2000x2409.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-160x193.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1275x1536.jpg 1275w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1700x2048.jpg 1700w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2125px) 100vw, 2125px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Coverage of the Hazel’s Inn raid from the San Francisco Chronicle in 1956. It was common, at the time, for newspapers to use derogatory language in reference to the LGBTQ community. \u003ccite>(The San Francisco Chronicle via Newsbank)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn had been under state surveillance for months, and patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents who had been watching them. One by one, agents picked out those they had seen showing queer affection. Most of those arrested faced vagrancy charges. Nikola’s liquor license was quickly revoked for knowingly hosting a hangout for queer people and for serving an underage person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-20-february-1956-smt-hazels-i/10556199/\">\u003cem>The San Mateo Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a> asked Sheriff Earl Whitmore about the raid, he said, “Let it be known that we are not going to tolerate gatherings of homosexuals in the county.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The full extent of the ABC’s operation at Hazel’s Inn became clear as the case was brought before\u003ca href=\"https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AHSI&u=glbths&id=GALE%7CMDRLJF555849529&v=2.1&it=r&sid=bookmark-AHSI&sPage=11&asid=6014d9b9\"> the ABC Board\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-court-of-appeal/1810632.html\">court\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In court documents, Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described the scene at Hazel’s Inn the night of the raid and in the months leading up to it. Strong described how one male patron sat on another man’s lap and how two others were seen holding hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple was seen embracing as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These scenes of queerness would be used in court to justify the revocation of Nikola’s liquor license for being a “resort for sexual perverts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While most of those arrested that night were cleared of charges, the damage had already been done. Newspapers caught wind of the raid, and patrons were publicly outed, with their names, occupations and home addresses published for all to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were so fearful,” Boyd said. “There were [LGBTQ+ people] who would never go out because they were afraid of getting arrested. And then [their] name would be in the paper and [their] life would be ruined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hazel’s Inn raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the following 15 years. Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses were all part of a strategy to push LGBTQ+ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Resistance amidst repression\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Looking back at this history of aggressive policing against queer people and their bars, it’s no surprise that queer nightlife continues to be central to the LGBTQ+ community. For many, gay bars were the only spaces they were afforded the freedom to be openly queer. They were also the battlegrounds where civil rights were won and lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the fight for LGBTQ+ rights continues. As the federal government uses its power to withhold \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049666/nowhere-else-to-go-sf-families-protest-kaisers-new-limits-on-gender-affirming-care\">gender-affirming healthcare\u003c/a> and to target\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12047432/us-sues-california-over-its-refusal-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-girls-sports\"> transgender youth in sports\u003c/a>, Boyd said it can be hard to keep hope alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12068581\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12068581\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nan Alamilla Boyd, a historian, poses for a portrait at the GLBT Historical Society Archives in San Francisco on Jan. 2, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The hits [to LGBTQ+ rights] keep coming and in many different ways,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, her work has taught her that in times of repression, powerful political organizing and cultural innovation can emerge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By the early 1960s, [queer] bartenders and the bar owners had pretty elaborate methods to resist the policing agencies,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They created a resistance movement powerful enough to outlast the government’s efforts to eradicate queer nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t really make cultural innovation illegal because it happens,” Boyd said. “It’s everything, everywhere, all at once. It’s the thing that’s our spirit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s because of that indomitable spirit that the Bay Area looks and feels the way it does today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>San Francisco and its surrounding Bay Area have long been known as a gay capital of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, it’s here, where the first lesbian civil rights group was formed, the Daughters of Bilitis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And where Harvey Milk became an iconic gay public official! [tape]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harvey Milk:\u003c/strong> I will fight to represent my constituents. I will fight to represent the city and county of San Francisco. I will fight to give those people who once walked away hope, so that those people will walk back in. Thank you very much. [clapping]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It was the birthplace of the Gay pride flag. And it’s where city hall is lit up in a rainbow for pride month. This is the Bay Area that our question asker, Henry Lie, knows well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music stops\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie: \u003c/strong>I’m originally from Pacifica…went to high school at Terranova High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry always thought of Pacifica as an extension of San Francisco — it’s just a few miles south, after all. And, there’s not a whole lot that surprises Henry about his hometown. That is until he learned about a moment in Pacifica’s history that left him with a ton of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> We have this museum.. I think I was there and saw like a footnote or something and it just said like, oh yeah, Hazel’s Inn raid where, you know, there was a large gathering of LGBTQ+ identifying people and a bunch of people were arrested, couple of people charged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry had stumbled across a forgotten moment in history — a massive police raid that took place in 1956, part of a crusade to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ominous music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local newspapers documented the raid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 1: \u003c/strong>San Francisco Examiner: Ninety persons, mostly men, were booked at the San Mateo County jail yesterday after a vice raid on a tavern suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 2: \u003c/strong>San Mateo Times: The raid, according to Sheriff Whitmore, “was to let homosexuals know we’re not going to tolerate their congregation in this county.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 3: \u003c/strong>Redwood City Tribune: Mrs. Nicola, owner of Hazel’s Inn, is charged with operating a resort for sexual deviates. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big questions began surfacing for Henry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> And I was like, whoa, I’ve never even heard of Hazel’s Inn. This says this was in Pacifica. Why have I never heard of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So he came to Bay Curious, hoping to find out more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Could you dive deeper into the Hazel’s Inn raid in Pacifica and the effects that it had on the LGBTQ plus community in the greater Bay area in the late 1950s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. This week, we’re going back to the gay bars of the 1950s to learn about a moment in time when the San Francisco Bay Area was far less welcoming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that coming right up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To dig deeper into Bay Area queer history, KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral takes us to Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Pacifica is a beautiful place, with sprawling views of the ocean and stunning beaches. It has that small town feel, complete with a\u003cem> tiny\u003c/em> museum showcasing its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This is our little museum…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Laura Del Rosso was born and raised in Pacifica, and serves as a docent and board member for the Pacifica Coastside Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This whole area around here was full of speakeasies, taverns, restaurants, and brothels during Prohibition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>It seems hard to imagine now, but this small town was once infamous for its nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso: \u003c/strong>Some people think that San Mateo County coast was actually the wettest place in the whole United States, meaning there was more booze here and in Half Moon Bay area than anywhere else in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>While the historical society has long been aware of the clandestine nightlife during Prohibition, it wasn’t until a few years ago that they started uncovering the history of a hushed queer nightlife scene that took hold right here, in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Jazzy music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Hazel’s Inn was a tavern in Sharp Park, now a neighborhood in Pacifica. ^The bar is long gone^, but in 1956 the Pacifica Tribune, described it as a large and homey space, with knick-nacks above a mahogany bar, a shuffle board, a dance floor and a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn was owned and run by Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> From what we understand then, after she got a divorce she was running the place by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the place was popular! Sometimes there were up to 500 patrons in a weekend. For a long time it catered mostly to locals and tourists on holiday at the beach, but then in 1955 and 56, the LGBT community made it \u003cem>their\u003c/em> spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> When the gay men started coming from San Francisco, she welcomed them. And she was non-judgmental. However, it’s obvious that somebody was not happy and did contact the sheriff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But before we can get to that night — the night of the Hazel’s Inn raid — we have to ask why here? Miles from San Francisco, hidden in a small town, far from any other gay nightlife, why was Hazel’s Inn the place that attracted hundreds of LGBTQ people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>To answer this question, I went to the archives at the GLBT historical society — where collections documenting the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Trans community are housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, I met Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd. She’s an oral historian with the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>I was professor of women and gender studies at San Francisco State for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She’s one of the few people who has researched queer nightlife in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> 1956, 90 persons, mostly men were booked at the San Mateo county jail…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>At the archives we read some of the newspaper clippings about Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> Suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She did a lot of her research back in the 1990s and was able to interview dozens of queer people who lived in the Bay Area in the 1940s and 50s. Most of them have since passed away, so her work and these archives are some of the last links to this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the 1940s, San Francisco already had a queer nightlife scene, but at the time it was illegal to be gay. And bars that were caught serving queer people… that was illegal too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> If you were not a legal kind of person, then you couldn’t like buy a drink in a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But the law changed in 1951— when the Black Cat Cafe, in San Francisco, had its liquor license suspended for serving members of the LGBT community. The owner appealed the decision to the California Supreme court. The case is known as Stouman vs. Riley and it’s a big moment in queer civil rights history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>The court agreed. And the ruling became one of the first civil rights protections for LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the first time, they had the protected right to assemble. Gay men and lesbian women could buy drinks at bars and hang out with other queer friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is as long as there were no homosexual acts taking place that were deemed “illegal or immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many legal decisions, it was a vague but powerful protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> I know it seems really regressive now, right? But the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t Status that was illegal, it was behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And so queer nightlife in the Bay Area blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> In the early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And really iconic gay bars came into the picture. The Black Cat Cafe was running again, Tommy’s Place and Ann’s 440 opened. And these places became sanctuaries for the LGBT community to be \u003cem>together. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There were maybe four or five quote unquote lesbian bars in North Beach in walking distance of each other at any point in time between like, let’s say, 1948 and 1955. So it’s like a really interesting community that evolved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And this was really important because in the 1950s it was still not super safe to be gay. Many queer folks were closeted by day in order to keep their jobs. But at night…at the bar…there was a freedom that didn’t really exist anywhere else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> And it was before the state caught wind of what was happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But then a panic started to take hold in the United States…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Are you a member of the communist conspiracy as of this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>A conservative mindset took hold in American politics and culture — ushering in a time of suspicion and fear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Our nation may very well die, and I ask you caused it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And quickly, LGBT people become \u003cu>targets\u003c/u> at the federal, state and local level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work, labeling them as having immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, in 1955 \u003cem>California\u003c/em> created a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control or the ABC. An agency whose sole job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral\u003c/em> codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from the moment the department of Alcoholic Beverage control was created a top priority for them was to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>Shut down the gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And they did this by finding ways around those vague protections won in the Stouman v. Riley case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While queer people were granted the right to assemble, “homosexual acts” were still illegal, so authorities started taking an interest in the specifics of what that meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There’s a question about like, well then what exactly are the behaviors that are illegal? Like, do you have to like see someone, having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about holding hands? What about dancing close? So all this stuff was like, then started being hashed out, you know, this is an illegal act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control started collaborating with a bunch of law enforcement agencies throughout the Bay Area to ferret out people engaged in those acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBT community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars, and they ended up down the coast, at Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound design of a raucous bar scene\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only testimonies about what happened on Feb. 19, 1956, the night that Hazel’s Inn was raided, come from court documents and hearings at the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described in detail what was happening at the bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That night, the dance floor was alive, and the bar was filled with around 200 patrons, mostly men. These men wrapped their arms around each other and embraced one another while dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also described how one patron sat on another man’s lap and how two other men held hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple embraced as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It sounds like a scene of queer joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music turns tense\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, 35 law enforcement agents stormed the bar — a mix of San Mateo county sheriff’s officers and ABC agents began arresting people. The sheriff jumped on to the bar and announced:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over:\u003c/strong> “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents. And one by one, agents picked out people they had seen showing queer affection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Boyd says that the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board had been watching Hazel’s Inn for months, gathering evidence and building a case that behavior there was “illegal and immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>They had undercover agents in the bars. And they would go in twos or threes and they would watch each other. And somebody would get an interested person, and then would sort of lead them on, until there was some kind of physical, sexual, or flirtatious engagement that involved touching. It was entrapment. And that was a common and acceptable practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Ninety people were arrested that night at Hazel’s Inn, including Hazel Nikola — the owner. The bar’s liquor license was quickly revoked for being quote “a resort for sexual perverts” and for serving someone underaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mass arrest caught the attention of a variety of civil rights groups, including the ACLU who represented 30 defendants. Most of those arrested were cleared of charges, but the damage had already been done. People were outed in the newspapers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There would be a list of the people and their address and sometimes their occupation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over: \u003c/strong>The San Mateo Times: Local persons arrested were: Iris Ann Glasgow, 24 years old. Clerk. 1515 James Street, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Many of these people were publicly named as “sexual perverts”. That often meant being ostracized or losing their job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> People were so fearful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cello music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>As for the bar, Hazel fought the revocation of her liquor license for\u003cem> two years \u003c/em>but the court ultimately sided with the ABC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> I think she was just really bitter about what happened here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the Pacifica Coastside museum, Laura reflected on what the raid did to Hazel Nikola.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> She lost her liquor license and things just kind of went downhill for her. You have that information on the thing. And she ended up, she ended closing. She was very, very bitter at the end. She felt like she was really an important part of the community and that they had kind of betrayed her. She left Sharp Park and went to live somewhere else. And never came back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the queer community, the effects were even more devastating. The Hazel’s Inn Raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the next 15 years. (Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses.) It was a strategy to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it didn’t work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this aggressive policing and repression, the gay bars never died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Queer patrons, and bartenders, and bar owners found ways to keep going. They found ways to spot surveillance in their bars, they organized and worked to keep the police out of their spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historian Dr. Boyd again:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> My takeaway from history as a historian is that during these times of repression. There’s cultural innovation that happens. You can’t really name it yet, right? But it’s taking shape you know, that there’s something coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>During those years of extreme repression, queer activists were making connections, organizing, and laying the groundwork for the next several decades of activism that would see LGBTQ rights expand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has changed a lot since the raid at Hazel’s Inn. But still, a fearless commitment to community and authenticity — the spirit that kept these gay bars alive — lives on here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Ana De Almeida Amaral. Featuring the voices of Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, Carly Severn, Christopher Beale and Paul Lancour for archival material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know that Bay Curious listeners help choose which questions we answer on the podcast? Each month we have a new voting round up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, with three fascinating questions to choose from. This month…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1: \u003c/strong>Did the Navy airship America crash land into several houses? What happened to the crew?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why is San Francisco home to so many federal and statewide courts? Why aren’t they in Sacramento or Los Angeles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I want to learn more about San Francisco upzoning and how people feel about it in the Richmond and Sunset districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cast your vote with one click at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Become a member today at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">kqed.org/donate\u003c/a>. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Matt Morales, Tim Olsen, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "it-just-felt-like-the-world-was-burning-remembering-the-2020-fires",
"title": "‘It Just Felt Like the World Was Burning’: Remembering the 2020 Fires",
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"headTitle": "‘It Just Felt Like the World Was Burning’: Remembering the 2020 Fires | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In August 2020, a dry lightning storm kicked off an unprecedented siege of wildfires. These firestorms lasted for months, destroyed 9,000 structures and killed 31 people. Millions of residents throughout the region breathed in toxic smoke as the sky turned orange and the pandemic raged on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we mark five years since the sky turned orange, we’re bringing you stories from people who lived through the 2020 fires, in their own words.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1998245/the-summer-that-changed-california-forever\">The Summer That Changed California Forever\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1752199076&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Alan Montesilio, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Five years ago, a dry lightning storm raged through northern California. After weeks of extreme heat, made worse by climate change, had dried out grass, brush, and trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] We had a dry lightning event that was epic in proportion, so about 15,000 lightning strikes over a three-day period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:31] The winds kicked up, and before long, there was fire and smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Watt \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Live from KQED News, I’m Brian Watt. A fast-burning complex of fires in the North Bay has forced thousands of people from their\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tara Siler \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] Lightning-caused fires burning in Santa Cruz and San Mateo counties have triggered widespread evacuations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin DeMerritt \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] The areas most heavily impacted by smoke are South San Francisco, Pacifica, San Mateio, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julia McEvoy \u003c/strong>[00:00:58] If you were here, you’d be choking on the smoke right now, Brian. It’s very, very sick and the sun rose blood red just a few minutes ago. People are just waking up and trying to find their way to some sort of normality here right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Now, if you were living here in 2020, you remember how it felt. The smell of smoke in the air for weeks on end. That apocalyptic orange sky. And oh yeah, the pandemic was only in its fifth month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:01:25] For 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this year in the middle of a historic event. It is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:42] In the end, these fires killed 31 people and destroyed approximately 9,000 structures. Overall, 4.2 million acres across California burned during the firestorms of 2020, the most in the recorded history of the state. So today on the show, as we mark five years since that orange sky day, we’re bringing you stories from the people who lived through the 2020 fires in their own words. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:12] My name is Nate Erickson. I lived in the Bay Area, lived in South Bay up until 2016. Moved up to Sonoma County, lived in Santa Rosa and Petaluma. And then in 2020, I got a new territory. I was in sales in Livermore. I moved to Livermore March 1st, and then March 17th, everything shut down. So my birthday was August 14th. And I decided to go camping by myself up in Humboldt. So I put my phone away, had the best time that I could possibly have in the Redwoods, a very peaceful, amazing time. I was really enjoying myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] But then Sunday came around, I pulled out my phone just to check my route, and that’s when I learned about the fires. I saw my stepmom posting that she was, she and my dad were being evacuated. All the alarm bells in my head went off. And so realized that there was a fire in Mendocino between me and home. And so just trying to figure out all of the details necessary to get home. So I just got on 101 South and started going. As I started to get close to Mendocin, I did start to see just this massive plume of smoke. As I kept getting closer to it, it was just such a surreal experience. And I think I also remember being on 101 and just seeing on the hill to my right, just seeing fire at the crest of that hill right there. And after the previous couple years of the previous fires, that was probably the closest that I had come to actually being face-to-face with the fire. I really just remember this seeing that plume of smoke and just not wanting to keep going. I mean, it’s kind of that fight or flight situation where I don’t want to go towards this anymore, but it’s between me and home. Also just thinking about my parents, my dad and my stepmom, just thinking what’s happening to them. They live still in the Santa Cruz mountains. I came to find out later the fire came within a half mile of their house. My parents got into a hotel, they told me to stay away. They were taking the COVID precautions very serious. They told me they were safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:04:42] When I got home, I think that just became a time of doom scrolling and making phone calls. Finding out not just my dad and my stepmom, what’s going on with them, but just other friends with their shelter in place that was happening. I didn’t really have a lot of other options. That was kind of a. Helpless feeling too, because you have your friends that are potentially in danger, and during normal times, you would drive to them and try to support. But at that point, I didn’t really know what to do. Uh, it was very smoky, uh, in Livermore. That I think that was more of a hit to my psyche than just the fire itself. Just because after the previous couple of years of living through similar situations of just breathing in smoke for a couple of weeks, it’s just, it became to be a lot. The week of the orange skies, that was very surreal. Uh, I remember that day very specifically. I was sitting in. Parking lot and that was the day of my review with my bosses. I was so frustrated and just really upset and just like, are we really doing this right now? Does this, we still have to jump through these corporate hoops and fill out, check these boxes and the sky looks like the apocalypse or Mars or something and we’re talking about KPIs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] What led to the point of me wanting to move to Wisconsin, I don’t know if it was an exact moment where like a switch flipped, but it was a very quick decision. After the previous years of living through the fires and breathing in smoke and also just the cost of living, I had enough money to purchase a home, but never in the Bay Area. It’s that uncertainty, right? I didn’t know if this was gonna be an annual thing now. It was three years in a row, and then that was kind of the climax of that story, right? I definitely think about that time quite a bit. It’s definitely still like unresolved, unprocessed trauma. Moving here now with the Canada wildfires, pushing smoke into the Midwest. And I was back going to the hardware store to buy N95 masks again. That first time I was just. So upset and we had it again this year so it’s always like a constant annual reminder of just how I felt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When I look back at that time and 4.2 million acres burned, it is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years. My name is George Morris III, and I am the Northern Region Chief for CAL FIRE. My area of responsibility is from Monterey County up to the Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] So leading into August 15th, which is when the lightning started, we had a heat dome laid over California for a significant amount of time, and some record temperatures were hitting. We were in the 110 degree range for weeks coming out of that It was a tropical storm, Fausto started to break up and this monsoonal moisture came up the Sierras. And everything came down to in those early moments, allocation of resources and trying to figure out, okay, we have finite resources, namely our incident management teams. Where do we deploy them? Where do commit them? We were on a continuous deployment of resources essentially through that time. And every time you thought you were gonna, you’re gonna get ahead, The original lightning-caused fires gave way to other mega-fires like the glass fire in Napa County and Sonoma County that just continued to stress the system over that period. In my career, every 10 years or so, there’s a lightning siege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:08:55] You can look at 1999, 2008, and then 2020. But in the era of the megafire, that propagation of large and damaging fire has just been really pronounced. And for 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this we’re in the middle of a historic event. Just dealing with the fires on the landscape was a challenge in and of itself, but they were also doing an incredible amount of damage to property. In the example of the North Complex, killing civilians as it moved into Berry Creek, they were significant complex events. It’s funny when I think back on it now, just how hard we were going and for how long. I’m happy that we could limit the damage to 4.2 million acres, given how difficult that operational reality was. So fast forward to today, you know, we learned a lot through that process too. Our technological capability has increased since 2020. We are, our predictive modeling is, is better. It’s at the, it’s at the fingertips of the firefighter now. So the next one we get, the public will be better informed to make good decisions and hopefully loss of life can be We’re in the era of the mega fire and we’re likely to see large and damaging fires in California for a variety of reasons. Climate change is one of those reasons. Encroachment into the wildland-urban interface. Most fires are caused by human activity. It was kind of a recipe there that are making fires larger and more damaging. In my early career, you could go on a 30,000 acre fire and you think I’ll never see anything like that again. But that is a naive thought as a young firefighter because the reality is it’s California, it’s a Mediterranean climate. It has always had a recipe for fire, and fire has always been part of its landscape. But there’s 40 million people on that landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton \u003c/strong>[00:11:14] Tell me, tell me who you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:18] Alana Semuels. Right now I’m in New York City, but I live in the Hudson Valley in New york state. Um, so yeah, so I was living in San Francisco. I should start off by saying San Francisco is like my favorite place in the whole world. I love just walking around and seeing all the beautiful views. I remember I saw the went to went to ocean beach to see the sunset and the colors are really vivid and I kind of thought, Oh, that’s unusual. That usually happens when there’s a fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:46] And over the next couple of days, um, you know, there were, I think there were a couple of fires going on at the time. And the air quality got worse and worse. I was pregnant at the time, so I stopped taking walks outside, the air was really hazy, we didn’t have air conditioning, and it was just really unpleasant. We couldn’t open our windows. We lived in a west-facing apartment, so it got a lot of heat. And I don’t know if I would say sun, because the sun was kind of blocked by the haze and the bad air. But just kind of everything I loved about San Francisco was suddenly gone. My husband and I just kept having this debate of should we open the windows? He didn’t want to because he thought the air quality was too bad. I was just like, we’re suffocating in here. It feels like we’re in some box. And the air got a little cooler at night. So one night I got so desperate, I was so hot that I went outside to sleep on our deck chairs and get some relief, at least get a little breeze or a little cool air. And I remember waking up with just kind of a fine layer of grit on the chairs and on me. And just feeling filthy and going back inside and wanting to hide it from my husband that I’d been outside because he was so worried about the air quality. I think I was about eight months pregnant at the time. And I remember calling UCSF, which is where I was getting care and expecting them to be like, oh, you’re fine, don’t worry about it. And they were like, well, if you’re not breathing properly, then your baby’s not getting the oxygen or just the baby isn’t getting what it needs. And that’s when we decided to rent a hotel room to at least get some air conditioning to feel like I could breathe deeply. It just felt like there was no relief. There was nowhere you could go to get relief and to feel clean and to feel like you’re breathing clean air. And even, you know, I think even in LA it was happening. So it just felt like the world was burning. It wasn’t just San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:14:02] We rented Airbnb in South San Francisco, this was probably the worst day. And we woke up and it was like eight and it’s like the sun hadn’t come up. And I was like, did all the clocks fail? Or did what happened? We drove back to our house and it was just like people had their lights on. It was still dark out and it was that day that everything turned orange and for whatever reason, I guess it was the haze and the smoke, the sun just didn’t really come up and you took pictures and everything looked orange and that was when we were really like, this is not sustainable. I don’t know if we can continue to live like this. We had been talking about moving to the East Coast because both of our families are on the East coast, but San Francisco is my favorite place on the planet. And, you know, it’s just a place that kind of makes my chest relax and I just love it. And I think after that summer and after those days, we just felt like we couldn’t go through it again unless we had a lot of money. You know, you can probably install some sort of air purifying air conditioning system. To your house if you own your house, which we couldn’t afford to do. And it just felt like we couldn’t do that summer after summer after Summer. This place is ahead of the rest of the country in terms of what it’s gonna have to deal with, with the water as well. And we just thought it’s just too much of a sacrifice to make, which I’m really sad about. I wish that wasn’t the case because I love San Francisco and I’m jealous of people who are able to live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:16:05] I saw the lightning that night and I knew immediately that it was a high fire risk and then I couldn’t reach them because the power went out right away. I am Leigh-Anne Lehrman, and I am a CZU fire survivor, as are my kids. So I had actually just been diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer. So I was up, I was actually not staying there that August. I was staying up in Woodside with my fiance. My older daughter was in between her freshman and sophomore year. Of college at Berkeley and her younger sister was only 15 and they were holding out in the fort in Bonny Doon. It’s a rural area, really tight community. We had lived there since 2001 so we were very embedded in the community. The girls obviously grew up there. They were born there in the house that we had. I had just had a double mastectomy like a week before, and we woke up in the middle of the night to lightning strikes all over the place. It was beautiful but also terrifying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:17:36] Over the course of the next two days, the winds were very strong, it was blowing it right in their direction, and it was spreading by embers from hilltop to hilltop, so it’s spread very, very fast and. It was not looking good for Bonnie Doon. I started really panicking, and then I couldn’t reach them at all. And there was a long night when I was trying to get a hold of them and tell them to get out. I didn’t know if they were there or not now because all the cell phones weren’t working. Finally at six in the morning, I caught a hold a friend of mine who had evacuated down to Davenport, which is where all our neighbors were gathering. And she drove back up there, and they were packing the car when she got there. By that time we knew it was not looking good. And then, you know, there was nothing to be done. We, they were, the girls were safe. They were staying with friends, with all of our pets. And the day that the house burned, I went to a physical therapy appointment and. Uh, somehow in the middle of it, because of a trimfist, as to, you know, what was going on. And I think my house is burning right now as we speak. And she was just, she was like, what are you doing here? So there’s absolutely nothing I can do about it. We did have one of my daughters, my older daughter’s friends who was college age, actually snuck past the barricade lines the day before the house burned and to get her cat out of their house. And she happened to call me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:19:24] I was at work and I happened to pick up the phone and she said, I’m going up to Monique. Is there anything you want me to grab from your house? And I said to her, you know, please don’t go up there. Does not say should that be going up. Up there was a reason why the roads are closed but she was like I’m going so tell me now you want me to go by your house drive me right by it so I said if you all if you do I told her where that this box of family photos were like like all we had left because my father’s house burnt down in 2017 at Santa Rosa I had one bin left of all the old family photos going back a couple generations. I told her where it was and I totally forgot about it until like three weeks later when she told me she had it. Wherever we all gather is where we’re a family. I’m not sure I would have believed that before. I always associated family with our home, but now we can kind of reconstitute our family and our family culture in any room that we are in.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In August 2020, a dry lightning storm kicked off an unprecedented siege of wildfires. These firestorms lasted for months, destroyed 9,000 structures and killed 31 people. Millions of residents throughout the region breathed in toxic smoke as the sky turned orange and the pandemic raged on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we mark five years since the sky turned orange, we’re bringing you stories from people who lived through the 2020 fires, in their own words.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1998245/the-summer-that-changed-california-forever\">The Summer That Changed California Forever\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1752199076&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Alan Montesilio, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Five years ago, a dry lightning storm raged through northern California. After weeks of extreme heat, made worse by climate change, had dried out grass, brush, and trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] We had a dry lightning event that was epic in proportion, so about 15,000 lightning strikes over a three-day period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:31] The winds kicked up, and before long, there was fire and smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Watt \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Live from KQED News, I’m Brian Watt. A fast-burning complex of fires in the North Bay has forced thousands of people from their\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tara Siler \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] Lightning-caused fires burning in Santa Cruz and San Mateo counties have triggered widespread evacuations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin DeMerritt \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] The areas most heavily impacted by smoke are South San Francisco, Pacifica, San Mateio, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julia McEvoy \u003c/strong>[00:00:58] If you were here, you’d be choking on the smoke right now, Brian. It’s very, very sick and the sun rose blood red just a few minutes ago. People are just waking up and trying to find their way to some sort of normality here right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Now, if you were living here in 2020, you remember how it felt. The smell of smoke in the air for weeks on end. That apocalyptic orange sky. And oh yeah, the pandemic was only in its fifth month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:01:25] For 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this year in the middle of a historic event. It is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:42] In the end, these fires killed 31 people and destroyed approximately 9,000 structures. Overall, 4.2 million acres across California burned during the firestorms of 2020, the most in the recorded history of the state. So today on the show, as we mark five years since that orange sky day, we’re bringing you stories from the people who lived through the 2020 fires in their own words. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:12] My name is Nate Erickson. I lived in the Bay Area, lived in South Bay up until 2016. Moved up to Sonoma County, lived in Santa Rosa and Petaluma. And then in 2020, I got a new territory. I was in sales in Livermore. I moved to Livermore March 1st, and then March 17th, everything shut down. So my birthday was August 14th. And I decided to go camping by myself up in Humboldt. So I put my phone away, had the best time that I could possibly have in the Redwoods, a very peaceful, amazing time. I was really enjoying myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] But then Sunday came around, I pulled out my phone just to check my route, and that’s when I learned about the fires. I saw my stepmom posting that she was, she and my dad were being evacuated. All the alarm bells in my head went off. And so realized that there was a fire in Mendocino between me and home. And so just trying to figure out all of the details necessary to get home. So I just got on 101 South and started going. As I started to get close to Mendocin, I did start to see just this massive plume of smoke. As I kept getting closer to it, it was just such a surreal experience. And I think I also remember being on 101 and just seeing on the hill to my right, just seeing fire at the crest of that hill right there. And after the previous couple years of the previous fires, that was probably the closest that I had come to actually being face-to-face with the fire. I really just remember this seeing that plume of smoke and just not wanting to keep going. I mean, it’s kind of that fight or flight situation where I don’t want to go towards this anymore, but it’s between me and home. Also just thinking about my parents, my dad and my stepmom, just thinking what’s happening to them. They live still in the Santa Cruz mountains. I came to find out later the fire came within a half mile of their house. My parents got into a hotel, they told me to stay away. They were taking the COVID precautions very serious. They told me they were safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:04:42] When I got home, I think that just became a time of doom scrolling and making phone calls. Finding out not just my dad and my stepmom, what’s going on with them, but just other friends with their shelter in place that was happening. I didn’t really have a lot of other options. That was kind of a. Helpless feeling too, because you have your friends that are potentially in danger, and during normal times, you would drive to them and try to support. But at that point, I didn’t really know what to do. Uh, it was very smoky, uh, in Livermore. That I think that was more of a hit to my psyche than just the fire itself. Just because after the previous couple of years of living through similar situations of just breathing in smoke for a couple of weeks, it’s just, it became to be a lot. The week of the orange skies, that was very surreal. Uh, I remember that day very specifically. I was sitting in. Parking lot and that was the day of my review with my bosses. I was so frustrated and just really upset and just like, are we really doing this right now? Does this, we still have to jump through these corporate hoops and fill out, check these boxes and the sky looks like the apocalypse or Mars or something and we’re talking about KPIs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] What led to the point of me wanting to move to Wisconsin, I don’t know if it was an exact moment where like a switch flipped, but it was a very quick decision. After the previous years of living through the fires and breathing in smoke and also just the cost of living, I had enough money to purchase a home, but never in the Bay Area. It’s that uncertainty, right? I didn’t know if this was gonna be an annual thing now. It was three years in a row, and then that was kind of the climax of that story, right? I definitely think about that time quite a bit. It’s definitely still like unresolved, unprocessed trauma. Moving here now with the Canada wildfires, pushing smoke into the Midwest. And I was back going to the hardware store to buy N95 masks again. That first time I was just. So upset and we had it again this year so it’s always like a constant annual reminder of just how I felt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When I look back at that time and 4.2 million acres burned, it is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years. My name is George Morris III, and I am the Northern Region Chief for CAL FIRE. My area of responsibility is from Monterey County up to the Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] So leading into August 15th, which is when the lightning started, we had a heat dome laid over California for a significant amount of time, and some record temperatures were hitting. We were in the 110 degree range for weeks coming out of that It was a tropical storm, Fausto started to break up and this monsoonal moisture came up the Sierras. And everything came down to in those early moments, allocation of resources and trying to figure out, okay, we have finite resources, namely our incident management teams. Where do we deploy them? Where do commit them? We were on a continuous deployment of resources essentially through that time. And every time you thought you were gonna, you’re gonna get ahead, The original lightning-caused fires gave way to other mega-fires like the glass fire in Napa County and Sonoma County that just continued to stress the system over that period. In my career, every 10 years or so, there’s a lightning siege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:08:55] You can look at 1999, 2008, and then 2020. But in the era of the megafire, that propagation of large and damaging fire has just been really pronounced. And for 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this we’re in the middle of a historic event. Just dealing with the fires on the landscape was a challenge in and of itself, but they were also doing an incredible amount of damage to property. In the example of the North Complex, killing civilians as it moved into Berry Creek, they were significant complex events. It’s funny when I think back on it now, just how hard we were going and for how long. I’m happy that we could limit the damage to 4.2 million acres, given how difficult that operational reality was. So fast forward to today, you know, we learned a lot through that process too. Our technological capability has increased since 2020. We are, our predictive modeling is, is better. It’s at the, it’s at the fingertips of the firefighter now. So the next one we get, the public will be better informed to make good decisions and hopefully loss of life can be We’re in the era of the mega fire and we’re likely to see large and damaging fires in California for a variety of reasons. Climate change is one of those reasons. Encroachment into the wildland-urban interface. Most fires are caused by human activity. It was kind of a recipe there that are making fires larger and more damaging. In my early career, you could go on a 30,000 acre fire and you think I’ll never see anything like that again. But that is a naive thought as a young firefighter because the reality is it’s California, it’s a Mediterranean climate. It has always had a recipe for fire, and fire has always been part of its landscape. But there’s 40 million people on that landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton \u003c/strong>[00:11:14] Tell me, tell me who you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:18] Alana Semuels. Right now I’m in New York City, but I live in the Hudson Valley in New york state. Um, so yeah, so I was living in San Francisco. I should start off by saying San Francisco is like my favorite place in the whole world. I love just walking around and seeing all the beautiful views. I remember I saw the went to went to ocean beach to see the sunset and the colors are really vivid and I kind of thought, Oh, that’s unusual. That usually happens when there’s a fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:46] And over the next couple of days, um, you know, there were, I think there were a couple of fires going on at the time. And the air quality got worse and worse. I was pregnant at the time, so I stopped taking walks outside, the air was really hazy, we didn’t have air conditioning, and it was just really unpleasant. We couldn’t open our windows. We lived in a west-facing apartment, so it got a lot of heat. And I don’t know if I would say sun, because the sun was kind of blocked by the haze and the bad air. But just kind of everything I loved about San Francisco was suddenly gone. My husband and I just kept having this debate of should we open the windows? He didn’t want to because he thought the air quality was too bad. I was just like, we’re suffocating in here. It feels like we’re in some box. And the air got a little cooler at night. So one night I got so desperate, I was so hot that I went outside to sleep on our deck chairs and get some relief, at least get a little breeze or a little cool air. And I remember waking up with just kind of a fine layer of grit on the chairs and on me. And just feeling filthy and going back inside and wanting to hide it from my husband that I’d been outside because he was so worried about the air quality. I think I was about eight months pregnant at the time. And I remember calling UCSF, which is where I was getting care and expecting them to be like, oh, you’re fine, don’t worry about it. And they were like, well, if you’re not breathing properly, then your baby’s not getting the oxygen or just the baby isn’t getting what it needs. And that’s when we decided to rent a hotel room to at least get some air conditioning to feel like I could breathe deeply. It just felt like there was no relief. There was nowhere you could go to get relief and to feel clean and to feel like you’re breathing clean air. And even, you know, I think even in LA it was happening. So it just felt like the world was burning. It wasn’t just San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:14:02] We rented Airbnb in South San Francisco, this was probably the worst day. And we woke up and it was like eight and it’s like the sun hadn’t come up. And I was like, did all the clocks fail? Or did what happened? We drove back to our house and it was just like people had their lights on. It was still dark out and it was that day that everything turned orange and for whatever reason, I guess it was the haze and the smoke, the sun just didn’t really come up and you took pictures and everything looked orange and that was when we were really like, this is not sustainable. I don’t know if we can continue to live like this. We had been talking about moving to the East Coast because both of our families are on the East coast, but San Francisco is my favorite place on the planet. And, you know, it’s just a place that kind of makes my chest relax and I just love it. And I think after that summer and after those days, we just felt like we couldn’t go through it again unless we had a lot of money. You know, you can probably install some sort of air purifying air conditioning system. To your house if you own your house, which we couldn’t afford to do. And it just felt like we couldn’t do that summer after summer after Summer. This place is ahead of the rest of the country in terms of what it’s gonna have to deal with, with the water as well. And we just thought it’s just too much of a sacrifice to make, which I’m really sad about. I wish that wasn’t the case because I love San Francisco and I’m jealous of people who are able to live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:16:05] I saw the lightning that night and I knew immediately that it was a high fire risk and then I couldn’t reach them because the power went out right away. I am Leigh-Anne Lehrman, and I am a CZU fire survivor, as are my kids. So I had actually just been diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer. So I was up, I was actually not staying there that August. I was staying up in Woodside with my fiance. My older daughter was in between her freshman and sophomore year. Of college at Berkeley and her younger sister was only 15 and they were holding out in the fort in Bonny Doon. It’s a rural area, really tight community. We had lived there since 2001 so we were very embedded in the community. The girls obviously grew up there. They were born there in the house that we had. I had just had a double mastectomy like a week before, and we woke up in the middle of the night to lightning strikes all over the place. It was beautiful but also terrifying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:17:36] Over the course of the next two days, the winds were very strong, it was blowing it right in their direction, and it was spreading by embers from hilltop to hilltop, so it’s spread very, very fast and. It was not looking good for Bonnie Doon. I started really panicking, and then I couldn’t reach them at all. And there was a long night when I was trying to get a hold of them and tell them to get out. I didn’t know if they were there or not now because all the cell phones weren’t working. Finally at six in the morning, I caught a hold a friend of mine who had evacuated down to Davenport, which is where all our neighbors were gathering. And she drove back up there, and they were packing the car when she got there. By that time we knew it was not looking good. And then, you know, there was nothing to be done. We, they were, the girls were safe. They were staying with friends, with all of our pets. And the day that the house burned, I went to a physical therapy appointment and. Uh, somehow in the middle of it, because of a trimfist, as to, you know, what was going on. And I think my house is burning right now as we speak. And she was just, she was like, what are you doing here? So there’s absolutely nothing I can do about it. We did have one of my daughters, my older daughter’s friends who was college age, actually snuck past the barricade lines the day before the house burned and to get her cat out of their house. And she happened to call me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Hundreds of volunteers across the state have signed up to ‘\u003ca href=\"https://ndlon.org/adopt-a-day-labor-corner/\">adopt\u003c/a>‘ street corners near where day laborers gather to find work. Their goal? To keep an eye out for Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED labor correspondent Farida Jhabvala Romero takes us to one intersection in East Oakland to meet the people offering their time to watch out for ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054317/volunteers-help-monitor-for-ice-activity-near-where-day-laborers-gather\">Volunteers ‘Adopt’ Street Corners To Monitor For ICE Activity \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7640200941&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Jessica Kariisa, in for Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:07] Way over there. You have to look at a car that comes in, it’s suspicious, we’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] This is Julio. He’s a day laborer in Oakland. On some mornings, he stands on a corner waiting for someone to offer him work. It could be in landscaping or construction, but he’s really not picky. He’ll do most work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Whatever, whatever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Julio’s already in a vulnerable position. He’s standing outside on a public corner, waiting to interact with strangers. But these days, it’s even more dangerous because many day laborers, including Julio, are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsreel \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] This cell phone video shows another raid. This happened at a Home Depot in Westlake. Now agents pulled up in unmarked vans and you can see the panic and the fear in the streets among the street vendors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:12] An increase in ICE activity has also led to a lot more fear among day laborers like Julio. But volunteers are responding. They’re showing up to those same street corners to keep watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:01:29] I believe in social justice, I believe right and wrong, and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] Today, why volunteers are adopting street corners for day laborers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] So I went to this intersection in East Oakland in the morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:07] It’s really busy, you know. There’s a lot of parents walking their kids to a nearby school, people waiting for the bus. It was a U-Haul parking lot. There was a lot activity there, in addition to about 10 to 12 day laborers waiting for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] And why did you want to go to to that corner?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:26] Yeah, so that’s where a training was gonna happen for volunteers of a program called Adopt a Day Laborer Corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:02:37] Right, the hardest thing is always being a step ahead of this department, right, of this agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:42] The idea is that people who want to support folks who might be at risk of detention by immigration authorities or stops by immigration authorities and who want to just, you know, support physically often vulnerable immigrants like delivers by being there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:03:02] And yeah, I’ve definitely seen corners where, you know, day laborers are waiting for work. I haven’t seen volunteers there waiting there with them. Can you tell me a little bit more about what the volunteers were doing when you were there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn’t know what exactly we were going to find, but I was very curious and the reason I worked on the story was I was curious about who was getting up early in the morning to do something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:28] I need to be out with the community I can’t and immigration has always been a real heartbreaker for me and it’s always been in my heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:37] I’m gonna only use their first names because both were afraid or concerned about negative impacts of their full names being out. So one of the volunteers I met, her name is Christy, and she’s 60 years old. She’s an interpreter. She lives in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:54] So I just decided, this seems like something I can do. I’m bilingual, I can look out, I have…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:00] And then the other volunteer is Wendy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] Yeah, I’ve been here a few times. This will be my second week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:10] And it was really interesting because Wendy works in public health, she actually lives nearby and she said she’d been you know spending time in the mornings there bringing her knitting and like chatting with with workers while she sat there. Both of them spoke Spanish you know they’re you know white American ladies who speak Spanish and so they felt like their jobs were either flexible enough in schedule or they could make time in a morning before their jobs to show up and do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:41] I’m not much of one for writing letters or emailing or calling, but this is something I can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:04:49] Can you tell me a bit more about why they said they were out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:53] So I think both of these women were really activated by the recent bystander videos we’ve seen of federal agents detaining people in the Los Angeles area and nearby counties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:10] You know, watching what was going on in LA just broke my heart. It’s like, how can I, you know, be of service for a community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:18] And then, especially, Christy talked about how she was really distressed by videos of immigration agents violently detaining people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:29] I believe in social justice. I believe in right and wrong and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:05:43] And this call that they heard to adopt a day laborer corner, where did it come from? Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:50] Yeah, so there’s been an organization for a long time called the National Day Laborer Organizing Network. They’re based in Southern California, but they’re national. They have, I think, dozens of organizations like Street Level Health Project in Oakland that are part of this network. And so what they told me is that for years they’ve encouraged people to sort of make neighbors, employers, other folks to make a connection with these day laborers, you know, and like bring them coffee or not be afraid to chat with them outside of, you know, work projects. When the LA immigration operations started really heating up in the summer, they sort of formalized that initiative and made it into this Adopt a Corner program. They said they got like thousands of people, you know, attending their trainings, and so they’ve had a massive spike in interest, you now, to show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:06:53] So say I decide to adopt a coroner. Is the goal for me if I see an ICE raid happening or if I see ICE coming to stop that from happening or to stop someone from being detained, what exactly is the goal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:08] No, that is not the goal. The main goal is just to first monitor what’s happening. What we’ve seen with immigration enforcement is often they don’t have identification that says immigration or ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When it comes to adopt a corner, your position is more as a watch out. We want you to be very aware of your surroundings and very vigilant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:36] Steve Robles is with Street Level Health Project, which is an organization, I think their office is in the Fruitvale. Steve was talking to the volunteers about what they were expected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:50] One thing that we’ve noticed is if a truck is large enough to have people standing up in the back, that’s a big red flag because what they’re doing is these raids happen in maybe five minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:03] He told them that ICE arrests, especially in public places, can happen very quickly. And their job as volunteers is to, as soon as they spot, you know, this kind of activity happening or something they suspect, this, you know immigration enforcement showing up, to call a number that alerts a wider network of immigrant advocates and lawyers, and at the same time to try to document what’s happening with their cell phones. After arrests happen, people need to figure out who was arrested, you know, and then try to alert the relatives. So there’s that kind of gathering of information that will help later on. It’s getting maybe legal help to people who need it, alerting relatives or friends about what’s happened and that kind stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:08:59] So really like serving as a witness and then helping to activate a chain of events that might allow someone to get more resources and more help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:09:16] For the day laborers themselves, seeing these volunteers, how does that make them feel? Do they feel safer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:34] At first people are like who are these folks you know why are you just standing there and then the day laborers felt like well I mean it’s another pair of eyes right that is here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:45] It’s good that they live here because it’s more protected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:49] It feels like there’s more people besides the workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:53] There’s more people, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:54] Julio is a day laborer, originally from Honduras, because of his immigration status, we’re not using his full name. He’s been in the States for a long time, and mostly works construction, landscaping jobs, but he says he comes to this particular corner in Oakland, you know, when he’s done with those jobs and is in between jobs, to try to supplement his income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] You have to be careful because you don’t know what’s going to happen. You have a suspicious car coming. We’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:32] He was very vigilant while we were talking. A lot of these, I think the immigration enforcement in Southern California has really made these folks who were already concerned about ICE agents showing up be even more worried about that. And because of the nature of their job, I mean, you have like vehicles coming up to them and then a potential employer asking who wants to work, explaining about the terms for the project. But when new people approach, they’re trying to figure out if it’s safe to even come close to that vehicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:11:09] Yeah, I mean, it sounds incredibly stressful. And I imagine Julio has so many other things going on, you know, trying to get work and, you know trying to also stay in the country. I wonder what is his most pressing need as a day laborer? And like, are initiatives like Adopt a Corner helping him?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:30] We’ll see you know what the impact is but for day laborers I mean they’re out there because they need the work. They need to make money they need to pay rent they need to they often send money back to their home countries to their families Julio said he was like sending money to his daughter he’s you know in college in Honduras so I think their most pressing needs remain the same which is you know like make a living. Even though we’ve heard that the number of day laborers definitely went down in these very public spaces, you know, many still need to like make money so they have to come out. And here in Northern California, we have not seen that level of immigration enforcement that we’ve seen in LA. But there’s definitely a sense that people are watching and they’re trying to prepare. And so I think the volunteers I spoke with felt like this was something that they could start doing now to build those relationships, figure out what corner they’re going to be in, and then if needed, they’ll be there. So I think a lot of this is a lot preparation in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] Yeah, yeah. Sort of picking up on that, you know, on the other side of it, you know, people watching all these things happening, seeing all these viral videos. There have been different responses to it. We’ve seen huge protests in the Bay Area all across California. I’m wondering how you see a program like this, you know, fitting into, like, the broader efforts around, like responding to what’s happening around immigration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:10] I think there’s a lot of organizing and trying to reach out to different people that are interested in getting involved. And so I think that there’s been a little more urgency. With this program, in particular, what the volunteers told me is they needed another avenue to feel like they could do something that they believe will help the broader community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:13:40] It helps to be actually doing a thing and even if it’s only a little bit useful, you know, because me being here, is that going to prevent people getting picked up by ICE if ICE shows up? Probably not, but we can mitigate some of the harm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:53] For Wendy, that was a way to show solidarity. She also lives in the neighborhood, and so these folks are part of her community in a way. She sees them all the time as she’s going to work. And so for her, it was like going a step beyond and spend time at the corner, observing and just monitoring for things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:14:17] There’s so much going on, but you have to find something. It’s important. We got to take, we have to take care of ourselves. You know, it’s only us.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Hundreds of volunteers across the state have signed up to ‘\u003ca href=\"https://ndlon.org/adopt-a-day-labor-corner/\">adopt\u003c/a>‘ street corners near where day laborers gather to find work. Their goal? To keep an eye out for Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED labor correspondent Farida Jhabvala Romero takes us to one intersection in East Oakland to meet the people offering their time to watch out for ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054317/volunteers-help-monitor-for-ice-activity-near-where-day-laborers-gather\">Volunteers ‘Adopt’ Street Corners To Monitor For ICE Activity \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7640200941&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Jessica Kariisa, in for Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:07] Way over there. You have to look at a car that comes in, it’s suspicious, we’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] This is Julio. He’s a day laborer in Oakland. On some mornings, he stands on a corner waiting for someone to offer him work. It could be in landscaping or construction, but he’s really not picky. He’ll do most work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Whatever, whatever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Julio’s already in a vulnerable position. He’s standing outside on a public corner, waiting to interact with strangers. But these days, it’s even more dangerous because many day laborers, including Julio, are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsreel \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] This cell phone video shows another raid. This happened at a Home Depot in Westlake. Now agents pulled up in unmarked vans and you can see the panic and the fear in the streets among the street vendors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:12] An increase in ICE activity has also led to a lot more fear among day laborers like Julio. But volunteers are responding. They’re showing up to those same street corners to keep watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:01:29] I believe in social justice, I believe right and wrong, and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] Today, why volunteers are adopting street corners for day laborers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] So I went to this intersection in East Oakland in the morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:07] It’s really busy, you know. There’s a lot of parents walking their kids to a nearby school, people waiting for the bus. It was a U-Haul parking lot. There was a lot activity there, in addition to about 10 to 12 day laborers waiting for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] And why did you want to go to to that corner?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:26] Yeah, so that’s where a training was gonna happen for volunteers of a program called Adopt a Day Laborer Corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:02:37] Right, the hardest thing is always being a step ahead of this department, right, of this agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:42] The idea is that people who want to support folks who might be at risk of detention by immigration authorities or stops by immigration authorities and who want to just, you know, support physically often vulnerable immigrants like delivers by being there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:03:02] And yeah, I’ve definitely seen corners where, you know, day laborers are waiting for work. I haven’t seen volunteers there waiting there with them. Can you tell me a little bit more about what the volunteers were doing when you were there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn’t know what exactly we were going to find, but I was very curious and the reason I worked on the story was I was curious about who was getting up early in the morning to do something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:28] I need to be out with the community I can’t and immigration has always been a real heartbreaker for me and it’s always been in my heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:37] I’m gonna only use their first names because both were afraid or concerned about negative impacts of their full names being out. So one of the volunteers I met, her name is Christy, and she’s 60 years old. She’s an interpreter. She lives in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:54] So I just decided, this seems like something I can do. I’m bilingual, I can look out, I have…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:00] And then the other volunteer is Wendy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] Yeah, I’ve been here a few times. This will be my second week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:10] And it was really interesting because Wendy works in public health, she actually lives nearby and she said she’d been you know spending time in the mornings there bringing her knitting and like chatting with with workers while she sat there. Both of them spoke Spanish you know they’re you know white American ladies who speak Spanish and so they felt like their jobs were either flexible enough in schedule or they could make time in a morning before their jobs to show up and do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:41] I’m not much of one for writing letters or emailing or calling, but this is something I can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:04:49] Can you tell me a bit more about why they said they were out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:53] So I think both of these women were really activated by the recent bystander videos we’ve seen of federal agents detaining people in the Los Angeles area and nearby counties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:10] You know, watching what was going on in LA just broke my heart. It’s like, how can I, you know, be of service for a community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:18] And then, especially, Christy talked about how she was really distressed by videos of immigration agents violently detaining people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:29] I believe in social justice. I believe in right and wrong and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:05:43] And this call that they heard to adopt a day laborer corner, where did it come from? Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:50] Yeah, so there’s been an organization for a long time called the National Day Laborer Organizing Network. They’re based in Southern California, but they’re national. They have, I think, dozens of organizations like Street Level Health Project in Oakland that are part of this network. And so what they told me is that for years they’ve encouraged people to sort of make neighbors, employers, other folks to make a connection with these day laborers, you know, and like bring them coffee or not be afraid to chat with them outside of, you know, work projects. When the LA immigration operations started really heating up in the summer, they sort of formalized that initiative and made it into this Adopt a Corner program. They said they got like thousands of people, you know, attending their trainings, and so they’ve had a massive spike in interest, you now, to show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:06:53] So say I decide to adopt a coroner. Is the goal for me if I see an ICE raid happening or if I see ICE coming to stop that from happening or to stop someone from being detained, what exactly is the goal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:08] No, that is not the goal. The main goal is just to first monitor what’s happening. What we’ve seen with immigration enforcement is often they don’t have identification that says immigration or ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When it comes to adopt a corner, your position is more as a watch out. We want you to be very aware of your surroundings and very vigilant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:36] Steve Robles is with Street Level Health Project, which is an organization, I think their office is in the Fruitvale. Steve was talking to the volunteers about what they were expected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:50] One thing that we’ve noticed is if a truck is large enough to have people standing up in the back, that’s a big red flag because what they’re doing is these raids happen in maybe five minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:03] He told them that ICE arrests, especially in public places, can happen very quickly. And their job as volunteers is to, as soon as they spot, you know, this kind of activity happening or something they suspect, this, you know immigration enforcement showing up, to call a number that alerts a wider network of immigrant advocates and lawyers, and at the same time to try to document what’s happening with their cell phones. After arrests happen, people need to figure out who was arrested, you know, and then try to alert the relatives. So there’s that kind of gathering of information that will help later on. It’s getting maybe legal help to people who need it, alerting relatives or friends about what’s happened and that kind stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:08:59] So really like serving as a witness and then helping to activate a chain of events that might allow someone to get more resources and more help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:09:16] For the day laborers themselves, seeing these volunteers, how does that make them feel? Do they feel safer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:34] At first people are like who are these folks you know why are you just standing there and then the day laborers felt like well I mean it’s another pair of eyes right that is here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:45] It’s good that they live here because it’s more protected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:49] It feels like there’s more people besides the workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:53] There’s more people, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:54] Julio is a day laborer, originally from Honduras, because of his immigration status, we’re not using his full name. He’s been in the States for a long time, and mostly works construction, landscaping jobs, but he says he comes to this particular corner in Oakland, you know, when he’s done with those jobs and is in between jobs, to try to supplement his income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] You have to be careful because you don’t know what’s going to happen. You have a suspicious car coming. We’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:32] He was very vigilant while we were talking. A lot of these, I think the immigration enforcement in Southern California has really made these folks who were already concerned about ICE agents showing up be even more worried about that. And because of the nature of their job, I mean, you have like vehicles coming up to them and then a potential employer asking who wants to work, explaining about the terms for the project. But when new people approach, they’re trying to figure out if it’s safe to even come close to that vehicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:11:09] Yeah, I mean, it sounds incredibly stressful. And I imagine Julio has so many other things going on, you know, trying to get work and, you know trying to also stay in the country. I wonder what is his most pressing need as a day laborer? And like, are initiatives like Adopt a Corner helping him?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:30] We’ll see you know what the impact is but for day laborers I mean they’re out there because they need the work. They need to make money they need to pay rent they need to they often send money back to their home countries to their families Julio said he was like sending money to his daughter he’s you know in college in Honduras so I think their most pressing needs remain the same which is you know like make a living. Even though we’ve heard that the number of day laborers definitely went down in these very public spaces, you know, many still need to like make money so they have to come out. And here in Northern California, we have not seen that level of immigration enforcement that we’ve seen in LA. But there’s definitely a sense that people are watching and they’re trying to prepare. And so I think the volunteers I spoke with felt like this was something that they could start doing now to build those relationships, figure out what corner they’re going to be in, and then if needed, they’ll be there. So I think a lot of this is a lot preparation in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] Yeah, yeah. Sort of picking up on that, you know, on the other side of it, you know, people watching all these things happening, seeing all these viral videos. There have been different responses to it. We’ve seen huge protests in the Bay Area all across California. I’m wondering how you see a program like this, you know, fitting into, like, the broader efforts around, like responding to what’s happening around immigration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:10] I think there’s a lot of organizing and trying to reach out to different people that are interested in getting involved. And so I think that there’s been a little more urgency. With this program, in particular, what the volunteers told me is they needed another avenue to feel like they could do something that they believe will help the broader community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:13:40] It helps to be actually doing a thing and even if it’s only a little bit useful, you know, because me being here, is that going to prevent people getting picked up by ICE if ICE shows up? Probably not, but we can mitigate some of the harm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:53] For Wendy, that was a way to show solidarity. She also lives in the neighborhood, and so these folks are part of her community in a way. She sees them all the time as she’s going to work. And so for her, it was like going a step beyond and spend time at the corner, observing and just monitoring for things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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},
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"pri-the-world": {
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"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
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