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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, October 7, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA), which requires most proposed public and private development projects to go through a thorough environmental impact review process, has long been blamed for slowing or stopping the development of new construction in the state. This November, Californians will vote on Proposition 45, which attempts to streamline CEQA review for certain “essential” projects. We’ll look at how changes could impact housing, data centers and more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind,\u003c/strong> director of the Climate Program at the Center for Law, Energy and the Environment, UC Berkeley School of Law; podcast host, Climate Break\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott,\u003c/strong> president, Versus Solutions; former deputy chief of staff to Governor Gavin Newsom, helped craft Prop 45\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes,\u003c/strong> legislative director, Greenbelt Alliance\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. When then-Governor Ronald Reagan signed the California Environmental Quality Act in 1970, it was meant to keep bulldozers from tearing up sensitive ecosystems. Fifty-six years later, CEQA is one of the most fiercely debated laws in the state. Its champions say it gives marginalized communities a means to stop harmful development. Critics say it’s been weaponized to block housing and drive up costs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, politicians wouldn’t go near CEQA reform, but as California’s housing crisis has deepened and clean energy projects must roll out at a faster pace, the calculation has shifted. Legislation passed last year made huge changes to the law, and this year, potentially more could come in the form of Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re going to hear from the people who’ve brought this initiative and those who oppose it, and we’ll talk about how unexpected players — data centers — have entered the conversation. But first, we’re joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. Welcome, Ethan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Laura. Good to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for joining us, Ethan. I’ve spoken to you a lot. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. Today we are talking about CEQA, which is, of course, the California Environmental Quality Act. Tell us, what is actually in this? What does it mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes. Well, as you mentioned, it was signed by Ronald Reagan, and it was originally just proposed to apply to major public infrastructure projects. And the point of the law was to require decision-makers, in advance of deciding on a big project, to figure out what are the likely environmental impacts of that project. And if there are significant negative environmental impacts, then decision-makers would have to mitigate those impacts if it’s feasible to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, if it is not feasible, the project is just going to have a lot of impacts and there’s nothing you can really do, then the project could proceed. But basically, it was a way to inform decision-makers and inform the public about the project’s scope of impacts, and also potential alternatives to the project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, the courts have dramatically expanded it. And there was a big decision in 1972 that basically said now all projects that require some sort of public approval, which is basically all projects, now have to go through the CEQA process. So it has been greatly expanded by the courts based on what Ronald Reagan thought he was signing — I’m assuming what he thought he was signing in 1970.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So it started out as something that’s like, this is about, you know, dams. And then now it’s like, this is about your neighbor’s house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes, although many projects are exempt or face very streamlined review. Now, the biggest projects have to undergo what’s called an environmental impact report. And these can be like multiple phone-book-sized documents that look at all types of impacts. But that’s really just a very small percentage of projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then once those environmental impact reports come out, and really almost all steps in the process of CEQA, there’s opportunities for the public to sue if they feel like decision-makers have done an inadequate job in analyzing those impacts. And that’s really where a lot of the controversy around CEQA has come into play, that it provides members of the public with opportunities to have pretty extreme leverage in some cases over particularly large projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so talk me through that. CEQA has been criticized for stunting development. So take us through the process of what a developer actually must do to comply with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, like I say, it really depends on how big the project is. Many projects are completely exempt. If a project just has a very narrow set of likely impacts, then often it’s very easy to just come up with some simple mitigation measures, and then the developer can move forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But for big projects that have a lot of impacts — think of, like, a big industrial project, maybe a large subdivision out on green space, farmland, maybe transmission lines, logging projects, et cetera. Those kinds of projects have multiple types of impacts. They’ll impact the air quality, they’ll impact endangered species habitat, they will impact noise, visual aesthetics, archaeological resources, historical resources. All of these types of impacts have to be analyzed for these large projects and mitigated where feasible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And at that point, the public, if there’s maybe an economic competitor, if they’re neighbors, uh… There’s environmental groups — they have the ability to sue if those impacts are not analyzed properly and the mitigation measures aren’t adequate, uh… And so that’s really where the leverage comes into play, and it’s often at the very end of the process when a developer’s already sort of lined up a lot of their financing, figured out where legally they’re allowed to proceed under the land-use laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so for developers, for industry, they hate this law because it injects a huge amount of uncertainty really right at the end of the process. And by delaying projects, that costs money. I mean, time is money for developers. And while the law is not meant to stop any projects, it can effectively do so if there’s litigation that draws out the timelines by many years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. And then, so how long does CEQA review actually take in some of those instances? On average, maybe, and then in the worst-case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I haven’t really looked at the data on this. I mean, anecdotally, what you hear is that if it does go to an environmental impact report and is litigated, it can take a couple of years sometimes. I mean, in some cases, there have been some high-profile cases that have lasted decades. Those are very controversial, very large projects. And usually, there’s other factors involved. But I would guess that’s probably a year or two to resolve.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then CEQA — you know, we see CEQA come up again for folks who are just tuning in, the California Environmental Quality Act. So Ethan Elkind, people are often critical of CEQA saying, like, look at what happened at Berkeley with student housing. Can you sort of spell out what was that example for us, and what is — how common is that kind of thing to happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the issue that there are these high-profile lawsuits that just look kind of ridiculous on their face, and then people throw up their hands and say CEQA is being abused and it really should go away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in this particular case, you had student housing proposed at People’s Park in Berkeley, and the courts ruled that essentially students were an environmental impact. I mean, I’m sort of saying this a little superficially here, but the result of it was to hold up a really badly needed student housing project that the university wanted to move forward on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the legislature immediately stepped in in response to the negative publicity, and they amended the law in an emergency statute so that it would go into effect right away instead of in the next year to overrule what the court had decided.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in reality, there are less than 200 lawsuits a year. This has been very well tracked by multiple sources. So litigation is actually quite infrequent. But when it does happen, it makes a lot of headlines. And so you get a sort of anecdotally driven debate on CEQA. We’re not really looking at the actual numbers, which are quite rare.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although I will say that the threat of lawsuits is very — has a really chilling effect. It’s a big deterrent for a lot of developers. A lot of developers I spoke to, if they think there’s any risk of a CEQA lawsuit for a project, they won’t move forward. They’ll choose a different area or they’ll design the project differently. So even though litigation is rare, I do acknowledge that it has a chilling effect on a lot of developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So now let’s talk about Prop 45. Californians are going to see that on our ballots this year. If you’ve already received yours in the mail, it’s right there. What is Prop 45 proposing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, Prop 45 would dramatically scale back the scope and timeline of environmental review for what its backers have called essential projects. And these are high-impact, often very polluting types of projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So housing, which would mean all types of subdivisions, large-scale subdivisions over open space that generate a lot of traffic and can eat up a lot of endangered species habitat. Renewable energy projects. All types of transportation projects, with the exception of high-speed rail, so freeways, freeway widening. Uh… Dams and irrigation projects, logging projects. Broadband infrastructure projects, which some have interpreted to potentially cover data centers as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a wide swath of projects. These are backed by some of the big industry groups in the state. This proposition is backed by some big industry groups in the state. And it would essentially allow the developer to define the scope of the impact. So it would be a greatly narrowed set of impacts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There would be a dramatically reduced shot clock on deeming the CEQA review complete, so just 90 days, with some exceptions. And it will be really hard for the public to be able to challenge any of these CEQA decisions. It raises the bar for any sort of judicial attacks on what decision-makers have done on CEQA. It’s hard and will make it hard for the legislature to amend this proposition. It would require a two-thirds majority of the legislature to amend itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Basically, for some of the biggest projects in the state, it would dramatically scale back the type of review, the shot clock, and the ability of the public to challenge any decision-making under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, and then I want to talk about data centers because that has really come into this conversation in the last few months, and we are already getting lots of comments on that. So, okay, talk about why people are concerned that data centers might be part of this proposition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, the issue is that they’re not explicitly excluded. This project — this proposition — does explicitly exclude high-speed rail, as I mentioned. It also excludes a Delta conveyance tunnel, but it did not exclude data centers, and the way that they’ve written what an essential project is for broadband infrastructure could arguably include data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t think it’s an open-and-shut case, but I think you’re gonna see developers of all types of projects try to argue that their projects are essential. And we don’t know how courts would decide on this. They’re supposed to be giving a lot of deference to industry under this proposition. And so I don’t think we have any assurance that data centers wouldn’t qualify for the benefits that Prop 45 would offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Interesting, because a lot of this debate about data centers is looking into the future and saying, well, maybe a lawsuit could happen. And from your position, Ethan Elkind, at UC Berkeley as a lawyer, it potentially could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s the whole issue with this. It’s going to create a lot of judicial uncertainty because there’s a lot of vagueness in how essential projects are defined. You’re going to want to see every single project developer argue that their project is essential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because of the way this proposition is written, we don’t know how courts are going to come out on this. So it does inject a lot of uncertainty. Like I said, they knew they could have excluded data centers. When they wrote this proposition, data centers were unpopular at the time. There’s a reason they excluded high-speed rail and Delta conveyance and some other things. They chose not to exclude data centers. So that, I think, is very telling on its face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> All right, well, briefly, when CEQA is at its best, what does it do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it allows the public to have some information about what a project is going to do to the environment, to their community. It gives the public an opportunity to weigh in, and it gives decision-makers an opportunity to understand what they’re approving.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And more importantly than all of this is that when there are impacts, they’re required to be mitigated, again, when feasible. And so it not only gives the public and decision-makers information, it makes sure that we try to lessen the environmental impacts of big projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All right, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, known as CEQA. And we are joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. What are your questions about Prop 45 and the California Environmental Quality Act? Give us a call. Or email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. All those places, we’re at KQED Forum. Or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, which is called CEQA. That just rolls off the tongue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind. He’s the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. And we are now welcoming in two additional people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have Jason Elliott. He is the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. He helped craft Prop 45. And we also have Jordan Grimes. He’s the legislative director with the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. He’s part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have heard Ethan. He shared his interpretations of CEQA and Prop 45. Jason, I saw that you were shaking your head a bit on some of that stuff. Give us what that shaking of a head was about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> First of all, thanks for hosting this \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> today. I think that everyone wants to talk for an hour about the intricacies of environmental review law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So stick with us, folks. That and Taylor Swift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I can get Taylor Swift in here somehow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I appreciate the professor’s blessings upon Ethan for explaining CEQA, which is one of the most complicated laws in California. I do take a little bit of exception to some of the characterization of Prop 45, because I’ve heard some of those talking points, and they’re the talking points of our opponents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But let’s talk about what is happening here. Look, California has decided what it wants. It wants cleaner air. It wants clean water. It wants affordable and clean energy. It wants housing you can afford.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Frankly, over the years, voters have voted on and the legislature has passed a number of bills to move us towards those goals. We funded it, we’ve passed bonds, we’ve done spending programs, but what we haven’t done is we haven’t built those things. We haven’t provided housing you could afford. We haven’t provided abundant clean energy at the level we need.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Prop 45 is on the ballot because a state that can’t build what it promises isn’t protecting the environment. It’s not creating cleaner water. It’s protecting the status quo. And that’s really what Prop 45 was about. It’s about shaking up that status quo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have the toughest environmental rules in America, in California. I worked in government for 18 years. I helped craft a number of those environmental rules. I’m very proud of those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Proposition 45 leaves every single environmental protection that’s in law today — leaves it intact. That’s true for laws that protect against paving over prime agricultural land. It’s true about laws that protect against paving over wetlands. It’s true about laws that protect against clear-cutting in our forests. All of those laws continue to exist untouched by Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does do is it ends the acceptance of endless delay as the status quo. As I said, I’ve worked in California politics and state and local government for 17, 18 years before I left and founded my firm. No one ever once said to me, California builds things way too fast. That’s never been the problem, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our inability to execute against our own environmental and housing goals erodes our credibility to lead on environmentalism and inclusion. Prop 45 speeds up schools. It speeds up electricity projects and water without sacrificing any environmental review.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just want to make one sort of clarification. This is less an argument about Prop 45 and more just a thing that I think would maybe be helpful for the listeners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>CEQA, as Ethan described it, he described what CEQA is, I think, very well. CEQA is environmental review. What CEQA is not is land-use decision-making or environmental regulation setting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in California, the state government and local governments decide where they wanna put housing, and then they zone for it. They decide how much new electricity infrastructure and where they want schools, and they zone for those things. The state has planning processes around providing clean water to people. They decide how to deploy money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All of those processes, all of the land-use processes and the law-setting processes, are different than CEQA. Those happen through public process with public comment, publicly noticed meetings, and so forth, and years of council hearings. That’s a totally different thing than CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>CEQA is the environmental review that occurs after a community has decided, we think this is where housing should go. We wanna get water infrastructure, we wanna get a new hospital built here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Once the community has decided we’re gonna zone this parcel of land over here for a hospital, developers do their thing or public agencies do their thing and bring a project forward. And then CEQA is the safety review at the end of that planning process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it’s really important for people to understand that Proposition 45 doesn’t touch, or purport to touch in any way, the land-use planning powers that state and local governments have. They — every data center was mentioned in the intro. Proposition 45 does not cover data centers, period. We can have a longer conversation about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ll talk about that in a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> But just to make the point, and I won’t fight that fight right now because I’m sure it’ll come up. If a community doesn’t want a data center in their city, just don’t zone for one, just don’t approve one. And then CEQA is irrelevant because the underlying land use won’t allow for that data center.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a key point to make, is that we’re gonna keep differentiating because opponents of this measure obscure that line to try to be hyperbolic. I think it’s important to pull those things apart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Land-use authority, what goes in your community, remains the power of your mayor, your city council, your board of supervisors. Prop 45 doesn’t impact that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing from Jason Elliott. He’s the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. We also have Jordan Grimes here, the legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan, what we’ve just heard is largely an argument around streamlining CEQA. It is not about the decision around land use, as Jason’s telling us. What about Prop 45 concerns you? You’re part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you so much for having me back. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, there are many, I would say, problematic aspects with the measure. It’s hard to know where to start with, I think, the things that are most concerning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, to step back, as we are discussing both with Jason and with Ethan, the Environmental Quality Act is fundamentally this law that provides protection to communities. It’s not about delay, although certainly that has been a tactic that bad actors have used. But fundamentally, it is about review. It is about looking at and analyzing whether or not there’s potential for environmental harm and then requiring mitigation of that harm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it is the first line of defense for many communities. And ultimately, what Prop 45 does is strip away many of the protections inherent in that law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The timelines, I think, are some of the most reasonable pieces of the initiative, although, again, it doesn’t differentiate between size of projects. It doesn’t differentiate, I think, between geography, where a project is, if it’s in a greenfield, if you’re paving over open space, or if you are in a city, for example. So I think that is inherently problematic in the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Will Jordan tell us what those timelines are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the explicit timelines in the initiative are, generally speaking, 365 days for a full environmental impact report. Okay. You know, there are other timelines dependent on the type of environmental review, some jargony acronyms that we won’t get into too much, as we sort of discussed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Basically —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jargon for this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s basically putting a time limit on the environmental review and then also curtailing lawsuits around it, right? But it’s not just letting them go on for an indefinite period of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And we’ve talked about that, but it’s actually quite a bit more than that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> What are the other concerns you have with it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Quite a few. I think the most concerning one for me is a new private right of action for developers to be able to sue municipalities if they deny a project or if they require sort of different mitigations that the developer views as unlawful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s something that is a huge change to CEQA, that is to the Environmental Quality Act, that isn’t there right now. There’s also a provision that basically says if there is a conflict between other environmental laws, that the initiative provisions prevail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are provisions that severely limit what a court can consider and that severely limits what a court can consider even after — even if environmental harm has been found. The court is very limited in its remedies under the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there are, I think, a litany of different things with this measure that go far beyond the timelines, many of which I think would be reasonable for certain projects. If we are talking about an apartment building in San Francisco, for example, the timelines that the initiative have in place might even be too long. It might not even make sense to do a year for an apartment project in Hayes Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Um, but if you’re talking about, uh, a new, you know, exurban development in the wildland-urban interface in a high-fire area, um, one of your, uh, I would say probably wouldn’t be enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to go to a caller now. We have Jim in Richmond. Jim, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thanks for calling in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you, and thank you for holding the show. As somebody who has read CEQA documents here in the Bay Area on really, frankly, bad projects, I want to tell you that as a citizen, we will — and even the city will — approach a developer to try to cause less damage to habitat or traffic, and without CEQA, or without the ability to challenge it, this really feels like one of those TV shows where you’re running across a lake and you’re competing against people, you know, jumping across these rubber balls or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s so many obstacles. It just seems impossible at this point. It really feels undemocratic. And I’d like you to address the cost of this as reported in the state pamphlet. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Jason, can you address this? Does it take away someone’s ability to challenge?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> And thanks for the call, Jim. I appreciate your advocacy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>No, it doesn’t take away someone’s ability to challenge it. Let me draw an analogy. I mean, I could go through the provision measure by measure, but this show isn’t long enough. So let me draw an analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you think about CEQA and the environmental impact report, so CEQA requires big projects to do the environmental impact report, which is what Ethan had laid out at the top of the hour. Think about the environmental impact report like the SAT test that we probably all endured when we were high schoolers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The question — Prop 45 doesn’t make the questions on the SAT easier. It doesn’t allow you to skip the SAT and go straight to college. Proposition 45 doesn’t limit any of those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does is say, once you’ve done the SAT, the grader — the state, the city — has a timeline in which they have to grade the SAT and give you your score back, so you can go ahead and apply to college in a timely fashion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a timeline, right? It also says that while the grader’s grading your SAT test, the grader can’t say, well, you know, we don’t think that that’s how calculus works anymore. We’re gonna just, like, change one of the rules about log functions. And so you kind of have — you have to start over on the SAT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s how CEQA works today. The way CEQA works is you can finish your environmental impact report with mitigations to make sure that you’re having that conversation with community and local government, get rid of the worst parts of a project that are the most harmful to communities, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All of that stays intact. All of the mitigation processes, all of that public feedback all stays intact. But once you’re done with that EIR, with that SAT test, it gets graded in a timely fashion, so you can build your project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In our case, we estimate that it will cut the time for projects with EIRs in half, from about 3.1 years to about one and a half years. So it’s half the time, but all the protections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s the key point: it doesn’t strip away any protections. It doesn’t eliminate CEQA. So what I heard in Jim’s question was, Prop 45 would eliminate the public’s ability to raise these concerns. It won’t eliminate it. That’s a misconception, so I want to address that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it does say that let’s get this stuff done in a timely fashion, so that we can get good projects approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And last point I’ll make on this, Proposition 45 leaves intact every local government’s ability to reject an EIR and reject the project. There are no automatic approvals anywhere in Proposition 45. So if a developer brings forward a truly bad environmental project, the city council could just go ahead and reject it and reject the EIR and/or reject the underlying project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jordan, how does this sound for you when we’re thinking about what Jim is saying, the ability to challenge a project? Do you feel like it would be harder when Prop 45, if it passes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. A hundred percent. You’re significantly limiting in terms of what the public is allowed to comment on, right? There are provisions that severely limit public comment. You are limiting the timelines in which the public comments are made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Do it for —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> It’s a time limitation. It’s not a qualitative limitation, so let’s make sure we’re accurate about what the measure does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right, but it does put a date —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Like the amount of days, okay?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yes, it’s a time limit, not a subjective limit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> You are limited in terms of vesting. If environmental conditions change on the ground, you are locked into a certain vesting schedule. So basically, things would go — everything would shift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for example, right now, if an EIR was being conducted and conditions changed —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s the environmental impact report.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes. Sorry about the jargon. If an environmental impact report was being conducted and conditions on the ground shifted in terms of habitat, in terms of various other things, right now, as the process works, those things can be considered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The way the initiative would change the Environmental Quality Act would mean that you could not consider those. The conditions on the ground at the time of the project application would be locked in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Like, read the very start.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And then the last thing I’ll just say is, yes, a city council or local jurisdiction could deny a project, with the potential that a developer could sue. And so there’s this chilling effect now under this new private right of action, right, where a municipality would have to weigh, do we want to deny this project? Do we want to risk getting sued by a project developer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, we’re not just talking about projects that are potentially environmentally beneficial, right? You know, new housing in places we want to see it, bike lanes, public transit. We’re talking about some really potentially harmful projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Schools, clinics, hospitals, parks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Clean energy, clean water facilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Sure, that’s the side that’s a —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’ve also seen the no side saying, well, what about freeway expansion? We’re talking, like, we’re talking —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Is that also included? Freeway expansions are absolutely included. We’re talking about CO2 pipelines. We are talking about exurban developments in high-fire areas. There’s a lot of different things that this project allows. Some of them are good. Some of them, I think, deserve that streamlining.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we are looking at is, on net, is this better than the status quo? And our calculation is absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, okay. We’re gonna go to — we’re going to go to a caller, and then there’s lots of time to talk about these different things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay. Lisa, we are going to go to you in San Francisco. Lisa, thank you for calling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Good morning. My head is spinning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> You’re not the only one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Yeah. This is a great debate, but I think for me, in this horrific time where, you know, these astroturf super PACs pop up named, you know, Neighborhoods for San Francisco or whatever. And it’s the real estate lobby or the apartment owners association or what have you, or developers, market-rate developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I want to know from both of your guests, the proponent and the opponent, I would like to know who the major sponsors pro and their money, and I would like to know who are the sponsors against? Because we know that organizations like the San Francisco — the Sierra Club has been captured by real estate forces. I mean, everything is through the looking glass now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So who are the funders of this initiative?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. Streamline, I’m triggered. Yes, there’s millions of dollars behind this initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So actually, I know you were asking to go to Jason and Jordan. I’m gonna actually see if Ethan, if you could answer this one. Ethan Elkind with UC Berkeley, where’s the money coming from from both sides?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I don’t have encyclopedic knowledge, but I have looked at the backers. I mean, you have the Building Industry Association as a major backer of this. They’re the big sprawl developers in the state. You have the Chamber of Commerce supporting this initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You basically have a lot of industry groups that are supporting this. On the con side, you’ve got environmental groups, and then you’ve got labor unions that often use CEQA as leverage to try to get project labor agreements, uh… for their union members, uh… And then, you know, it’s a grab bag of other folks, but I’m sure Jordan and Jason could speak in more detail. But that’s the general gist on the yes and the no side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re going to come back to that because we’re about to take a break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind of UC Berkeley, Jason Elliott, president of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions, and Jordan Grimes, legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. How are you planning to vote on Prop 45 and why? Email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum, or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45. It’s a ballot measure that is proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law called CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by Ethan Elkind, the Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy and the Environment; Jason Elliott, President of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions; and Jordan Grimes, Legislative Director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to go to a question that comes from listener Jeff. Jeff writes, “To what extent do the guests believe the passage of Prop 45 will meaningfully change the speed of development, and in what sectors? Is that clean energy, roads, housing?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jason, let’s go to you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, we do believe that it will speed up development, and that’s the purpose for crafting this measure. And speeding up development, let me say why that’s important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speed on its own is not necessarily a good thing. But when you have housing and clean energy and clean water projects, hospital projects, school projects that are delivered faster, that creates cost savings for local governments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Of the non-housing projects that this measure covers, 76% of them that we expect would be covered by EIRs are projects that are brought forward by your local government, by your city, by your county. So they’re looking to fix a bridge, they’re looking to improve a public restroom facility, they’re looking to build a new school campus, high school campus, whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These — the overwhelming majority of projects we believe, not housing, we can talk about housing, is a little different because governments don’t build housing. But of the non-housing projects, the overwhelming majority are public projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The longer that those delay, the more the cost goes up. And it’s not some greedy developer hiding in a back room that bears that cost. It’s you, the taxpayer. So this really is around taxpayer protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, because the housing part of this measure and the non-housing part of the measure are similar, but they operate, they function in different ways in terms of speeding things up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, the average — we estimate that the average delay from CEQA alone increases the cost when an EIR has to be performed, increases the cost by $75,000 per new home that’s built by the private sector. So reducing time does reduce cost, which makes houses more affordable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So this really is all around reducing the cost of living by reducing how expensive it is to build stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> California. And this is one of the reasons why it seems like the Cal Chamber wanted to bring this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so, can you actually give us a number, a year number, like right now it takes an average of this many years to build housing and after this it would, we believe —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll give you a number that I can stand behind, which is how long CEQA delays projects, because how long it takes to build housing can depend on so many factors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in terms of housing, housing projects that have to perform this environmental impact report that we’ve been discussing take on average 3.1 years. Non-housing projects that also have to perform an EIR take on an average of 3.0 years, so about three years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We anticipate that our measure would, because of the timelines that Jordan mentioned, conclude in 17 months. So you’re talking about roughly half the time. You’re cutting that roughly in half without diminishing any of the underlying environmental protections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s just a key point that keeps getting lost here. The underlying legal environmental protections all remain in place under Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Grimes from the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. What is your take on how much this, if we pass Prop 45, would speed up development? And then I wanna ask you about cost as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. I think the concern, the biggest concern to us, is that it will tremendously speed up projects that are going to harm the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I actually don’t think it will do very much at all for projects that are environmentally beneficial, for the projects that I think people care most about. The California legislature last year granted a clean, complete statutory exemption to infill housing projects. It was a watershed moment for the state in acknowledging that environmental review can be used. For infill, the legislature remedied it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if you want to build an apartment in Beverly Hills or Palo Alto, you no longer have to go through that environmental review, which will be a huge boon to solving our housing crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Likewise, the legislature has provided statutory exemptions for bike lanes, for bus projects, for public transit, for clean energy. And so, realistically, I think the types of projects that Californians are really demanding — the clean energy, the housing projects that we need — we have already exempted those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I do think it will speed up projects, but they’re the projects that we don’t want to see. It’s new subdivisions in high wildfire areas. It’s the CO2 pipelines. It’s potentially data centers, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about that, just that housing piece. So what you are saying is that because last year California passed what was called AB 130, it is now — housing developments are exempt in urban areas, right? From CEQA, from all this stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I have seen the no side say, listen, why do we need this if we’ve already gotten that? It’s still rolling out. And that you believe that housing, it would be easier to build housing in wildfire-prone areas. Like a place like Paradise that is, you know, in this gorgeous wooded area, but also very fire-prone, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Jordan, if you could — or excuse me, Jason, can you tell me what is your take on that? Is it gonna be easier to build housing in these places where we don’t necessarily wanna promote it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great. And thanks, Jordan, for mentioning Assembly Bill 130. I worked for years when I was inside state government to bring that policy forward, to do the politics and the policy, and thank God for Buffy Wicks and Scott Wiener. Amen. Yeah. And they brought that forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s a huge win. Really proud of the work on that and Governor Newsom for pushing it through the budget. But he pushed it through the budget. The legislature did that. They found their courage, and thank God for Scott Wiener and Buffy Wicks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, the courage of a couple of legislators is not a statewide housing policy. And in this state, we are millions of units short. I ran housing policy for the state for a number of years. We’re millions of years short, right? Yeah, we’re millions of units short.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have this much of a housing deficit in California, you have to build up, but you also have to build out, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s really important that we just acknowledge that reality, the uncomfortable reality that some of our environmental opponents — about 100 organizations who opposed AB 130 — we met in the hall, and I know that’s not you, but 100-plus environmental organizations that opposed Assembly Bill 130 last year, that streamlining we were just talking about, they called it, quote, “the worst anti-environmental law in recent history.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That exact same coalition is now opposing Proposition 45. And I’m not trying to put this on you, Jordan, we just met. You seem like you’re a pro-housing guy, and I appreciate your leadership on that. But let’s talk about who’s behind the opposition to this measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It is the same anti-housing environmental groups that for decades, decades, have been blocking the kinds of housing we need.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because here’s the thing about Proposition 45. I think it’s another important point to make. Jordan keeps mentioning, and some of the opponents of the measure talk about, well, it’s not just housing. It’s all these other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All those other things are what make housing complete neighborhoods. A housing unit is just a housing unit until you attach it to water, until you build a school nearby, so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I see housing — just last point I wanna make on this — you know I’ve been working on these issues for years and years, and the way that I see housing development, it’s like a complicated safe in, like, one of those safe-cracking movies where you gotta get every little pin lined up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you don’t have the water and the electricity, you know, one of the big problems we have in this state is interconnection. A new building gets built, but you can’t get power to it, so it just stays empty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You gotta get all these pins, and if one of these pins is just a hair off, you can’t unlock that new neighborhood, you can’t move families in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Proposition 45 absolutely does streamline a number of those other things that are necessary. People drive on highways, right? People need to turn on the lights and have clean energy, power their microwaves and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So yes, Proposition 45 is about building those complete neighborhoods because a housing unit is just a paper promise until we connect it to all that infrastructure. Then it becomes a home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to bring in Ethan Elkind. He’s from UC Berkeley, a legal expert.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ethan, from your legal standpoint, you have seen that AB 130 passed last year. It’s begun to be implemented. How much Prop 45 changes housing development compared to the reforms of the past?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think, as Jordan said, infill housing — the kinds of environmentally beneficial housing that we want to see — basically got a free pass under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the reality is — and Jason basically described this — there are so many barriers to all sorts of projects in the state that go well beyond where environmental review comes into the process, that, you know, by blaming CEQA for all the delays that we have, we’re taking our eye off the ball of all these other problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, Jason described how CEQA does not [involve] local land-use decision-making, but that’s exactly why we’re not really getting at the heart of the problem as to why there are so many delays for projects in the state. We have a lot of different local governments, special districts, utilities, all of which could create a lot of delays for projects that CEQA does not touch.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so your question around how housing is affected, because we’ve already carved out an exemption that really just went into effect for all infill housing projects: the beneficiaries of Prop 45, by narrowing the scope of environmental review, by narrowing the alternatives, by dramatically shortening the shot clock for any sort of challenges, by raising the bar to judicial challenges, the only beneficiaries of that are going to be these sort of large subdivision projects, because all other types of housing in the state is now essentially exempted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So those are the beneficiaries. It’s going to be a lot harder for the public to be able to hold to account decision-makers who are approving these large subdivisions. We’re going to lose the ability to require mitigation and analyze those impacts really adequately in advance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s not true that we lose the ability. I’m sorry, but that’s a mischaracterization of the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, but by dramatically reducing the scope of the impacts, by reducing the alternatives, and by putting a really dramatically increased shot clock, you’re limiting the ability of the public to understand what the impacts are and to challenge them because they’re not going to have the time and the information to be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if they do want to challenge them in court, the bar to challenging them in the court has now been raised dramatically by Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m going to interrupt this one because we’re going to go to a caller. I want to remind us all this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans, I’m in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are talking about Proposition 45, which you can tell is contentious. It’s a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law. We are joined with Ethan Elkind, Jason Elliott, Jordan Grimes, and we want to hear from you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are there — were you in California when CEQA got started in the ’60s and ’70s? What do you make of the way it’s evolved over the decades? Email us your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on all the online things. You can call us at 1-866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wanna go now to a caller, Douglas in San Leandro. Thank you so much for joining us, Douglas. What’s your question?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Douglas:\u003c/strong> Uh… Good morning. It may be, uh… more of a comment. I’d like to bring data centers back to the conversation, with the data centers, which are huge energy and water demand for exactly the kind of thing that CEQA was intended to address.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh… And yet, uh… you know, what’s happening at 70% or more the public has indicated they’re really not in favor, is that the independent developers are rushing, rushing, rushing to get stuff done.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, the idea that, well, we can just go to the city council and get them to defeat it, or we can look at our zoning codes and say, well, it’s not zoned for data centers — it’s not true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What just happened in the city of Hayward next door to me is, right, the Planning Commission approved a humongous data center, more than 300,000 square feet. It never went to the City Council. The people of Hayward never knew about it. It was approved as office space, and we’re faced with the same thing here in San Leandro, where our Planning Commission just approved a conditional use permit for a similarly sized place, and it looks like it’s primed to be a data center.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nowhere are there any codes about data centers. It would be good if there were because then it would flag us for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the problem about shortening the timeline is we don’t know what’s going on. And it’s these data center developers are, you know, they’re having our official sign non-disclosure agreements, so what the heck is happening in closed session? We don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the time is actually really quite an important protection for us, the public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And given what Ethan Elkind said earlier in the hour is that he believes from his legal perspective that data centers could be included in this proposition, Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Grimes from the Greenbelt Alliance, why do you consider data centers as potentially part of this legislation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, I’ll say it’s not just me. It’s attorneys and legal scholars from UC Berkeley, from UC Davis. But essentially, the way the provision is drafted, right? “Essential broadband internet access project.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Um —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> What that language means and the broad applicability of that, we absolutely believe covers data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> There’s also a provision — why do you think that? Because it says broadband access, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I think fundamentally that could absolutely — broadband access could, given the legal definition, be applied to data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. There’s a co-location of a broadband center and a data center, and that would get —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Potentially. There’s also the provision in the measure that allows for the provisions of the measure to apply to ancillary infrastructure. So if you’re locating a broadband internet access project in a facility that houses multiple tenants, there is that aspect, but there’s the aspect that you could apply this would be required to furnish those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh… Merit matters. I think it is about time to hear — if you want to hear your response.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, data centers are not covered by Proposition 45, and I appreciate that the opponents of this measure, as you’ve heard, want to assert that they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have a former CPUC Public Utilities Commissioner, former FCC Commissioner, a bunch of lawyers who are not affiliated with the campaign who have published opinions that they don’t think data centers are covered, so we can go lawyer for lawyer, I suppose.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, the data center coalition itself, the sort of industry arm, mouthpiece of the data center industry, has declined to support the measure because they say that data centers — this measure doesn’t help data centers. So I suppose that’s probably the greatest validation of all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But look, this question around data centers… I’ve been doing campaigns a long time. I get why the opponents are using data centers. I have seen polling too. We have our own polling. Data centers are profoundly unpopular. It’s why we didn’t include them in the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right. The measure does have carve-outs, right? It says, okay, clean energy projects are included, but not nuclear. So why did it say, but not —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Data centers. It’s a great question. Let’s take high-speed rail, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but why does it say not data centers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I’m going to explain why using high-speed rail. So high-speed rail was excluded or carved out, as you said, because transportation projects otherwise are included. So had we not carved out high-speed rail or the Delta Tunnel, as was mentioned earlier, that would be covered under existing central project definitions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Data centers just don’t factor into this because despite Jordan’s best attempts, a data center is not a broadband line. They’re just different things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you read the text of the measure, you will see that they are, just by plain reading, different things. Will someone somewhere try to make some argument? Sure, but the text of the measure is absolutely clear that data centers are just simply not covered, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The list of things that are not covered is quite literally infinite. I mean, you could just keep going and going and doing, but we excluded things that would have otherwise been covered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I just like — I think that there’s a key point here. Campaigns, you can basically say anything you want with a glossy mailer or like on a social media ad, right? Here’s where you can’t say anything. You can’t say anything you want in the official ballot argument that you actually have to submit to the Secretary of State.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s where there’s a legal bar for truthfulness and veracity, right? Because you can litigate those, right? Guess where data centers does not appear in the official ballot argument. The opponents of this measure know that it’s a specious argument, and so they didn’t put it in their official ballot arguments, and that’s kind of all you need to know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re using it because it polls. Well, I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes, but let’s not use scare tactics. Let’s talk about what’s actually in the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I do really want to push back on the idea that these are scare tactics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have data center developers who are donating to this campaign. You have Prologis, who, by the way… Prologis builds solar. Prologis is building five data centers right now in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then the campaign finance rate, isn’t there something around $15 million that has been donated by a PAC that does have representatives from data centers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> For the pro side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And again, the Prologis — the PUC expert that was cited, you know, is a board member of Prologis, right? You have them giving half a million dollars to the campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, I don’t think they would be doing that, quite frankly, if they, you know, weren’t getting something pretty significant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> The no side has received $16 million in contributions from one billionaire. Okay, so, like, if we’re gonna have a discussion about funding, I’ll tell you where our money comes from and our support. The infill builders have supported our measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m so sorry, we are gonna have to leave it there. There is so much to talk about. The time goes very quickly. Let’s do another hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans. I’m in for Mina Kim. We’ve been talking about Prop 45. We’ve been joined by Ethan Elkind, the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment; Jason Elliott of Versus Solutions; Jordan Grimes from the Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thank you so much for joining us. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind,\u003c/strong> director of the Climate Program at the Center for Law, Energy and the Environment, UC Berkeley School of Law; podcast host, Climate Break\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott,\u003c/strong> president, Versus Solutions; former deputy chief of staff to Governor Gavin Newsom, helped craft Prop 45\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes,\u003c/strong> legislative director, Greenbelt Alliance\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. When then-Governor Ronald Reagan signed the California Environmental Quality Act in 1970, it was meant to keep bulldozers from tearing up sensitive ecosystems. Fifty-six years later, CEQA is one of the most fiercely debated laws in the state. Its champions say it gives marginalized communities a means to stop harmful development. Critics say it’s been weaponized to block housing and drive up costs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. When then-Governor Ronald Reagan signed the California Environmental Quality Act in 1970, it was meant to keep bulldozers from tearing up sensitive ecosystems. Fifty-six years later, CEQA is one of the most fiercely debated laws in the state. Its champions say it gives marginalized communities a means to stop harmful development. Critics say it’s been weaponized to block housing and drive up costs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For decades, politicians wouldn’t go near CEQA reform, but as California’s housing crisis has deepened and clean energy projects must roll out at a faster pace, the calculation has shifted. Legislation passed last year made huge changes to the law, and this year, potentially more could come in the form of Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For decades, politicians wouldn’t go near CEQA reform, but as California’s housing crisis has deepened and clean energy projects must roll out at a faster pace, the calculation has shifted. Legislation passed last year made huge changes to the law, and this year, potentially more could come in the form of Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re going to hear from the people who’ve brought this initiative and those who oppose it, and we’ll talk about how unexpected players — data centers — have entered the conversation. But first, we’re joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. Welcome, Ethan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re going to hear from the people who’ve brought this initiative and those who oppose it, and we’ll talk about how unexpected players — data centers — have entered the conversation. But first, we’re joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. Welcome, Ethan.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Laura. Good to be with you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for joining us, Ethan. I’ve spoken to you a lot. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. Today we are talking about CEQA, which is, of course, the California Environmental Quality Act. Tell us, what is actually in this? What does it mean?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for joining us, Ethan. I’ve spoken to you a lot. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. Today we are talking about CEQA, which is, of course, the California Environmental Quality Act. Tell us, what is actually in this? What does it mean?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes. Well, as you mentioned, it was signed by Ronald Reagan, and it was originally just proposed to apply to major public infrastructure projects. And the point of the law was to require decision-makers, in advance of deciding on a big project, to figure out what are the likely environmental impacts of that project. And if there are significant negative environmental impacts, then decision-makers would have to mitigate those impacts if it’s feasible to do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes. Well, as you mentioned, it was signed by Ronald Reagan, and it was originally just proposed to apply to major public infrastructure projects. And the point of the law was to require decision-makers, in advance of deciding on a big project, to figure out what are the likely environmental impacts of that project. And if there are significant negative environmental impacts, then decision-makers would have to mitigate those impacts if it’s feasible to do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, if it is not feasible, the project is just going to have a lot of impacts and there’s nothing you can really do, then the project could proceed. But basically, it was a way to inform decision-makers and inform the public about the project’s scope of impacts, and also potential alternatives to the project.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, if it is not feasible, the project is just going to have a lot of impacts and there’s nothing you can really do, then the project could proceed. But basically, it was a way to inform decision-makers and inform the public about the project’s scope of impacts, and also potential alternatives to the project.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, the courts have dramatically expanded it. And there was a big decision in 1972 that basically said now all projects that require some sort of public approval, which is basically all projects, now have to go through the CEQA process. So it has been greatly expanded by the courts based on what Ronald Reagan thought he was signing — I’m assuming what he thought he was signing in 1970.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, the courts have dramatically expanded it. And there was a big decision in 1972 that basically said now all projects that require some sort of public approval, which is basically all projects, now have to go through the CEQA process. So it has been greatly expanded by the courts based on what Ronald Reagan thought he was signing — I’m assuming what he thought he was signing in 1970.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So it started out as something that’s like, this is about, you know, dams. And then now it’s like, this is about your neighbor’s house.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So it started out as something that’s like, this is about, you know, dams. And then now it’s like, this is about your neighbor’s house.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes, although many projects are exempt or face very streamlined review. Now, the biggest projects have to undergo what’s called an environmental impact report. And these can be like multiple phone-book-sized documents that look at all types of impacts. But that’s really just a very small percentage of projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes, although many projects are exempt or face very streamlined review. Now, the biggest projects have to undergo what’s called an environmental impact report. And these can be like multiple phone-book-sized documents that look at all types of impacts. But that’s really just a very small percentage of projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then once those environmental impact reports come out, and really almost all steps in the process of CEQA, there’s opportunities for the public to sue if they feel like decision-makers have done an inadequate job in analyzing those impacts. And that’s really where a lot of the controversy around CEQA has come into play, that it provides members of the public with opportunities to have pretty extreme leverage in some cases over particularly large projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then once those environmental impact reports come out, and really almost all steps in the process of CEQA, there’s opportunities for the public to sue if they feel like decision-makers have done an inadequate job in analyzing those impacts. And that’s really where a lot of the controversy around CEQA has come into play, that it provides members of the public with opportunities to have pretty extreme leverage in some cases over particularly large projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so talk me through that. CEQA has been criticized for stunting development. So take us through the process of what a developer actually must do to comply with it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so talk me through that. CEQA has been criticized for stunting development. So take us through the process of what a developer actually must do to comply with it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, like I say, it really depends on how big the project is. Many projects are completely exempt. If a project just has a very narrow set of likely impacts, then often it’s very easy to just come up with some simple mitigation measures, and then the developer can move forward.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, like I say, it really depends on how big the project is. Many projects are completely exempt. If a project just has a very narrow set of likely impacts, then often it’s very easy to just come up with some simple mitigation measures, and then the developer can move forward.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But for big projects that have a lot of impacts — think of, like, a big industrial project, maybe a large subdivision out on green space, farmland, maybe transmission lines, logging projects, et cetera. Those kinds of projects have multiple types of impacts. They’ll impact the air quality, they’ll impact endangered species habitat, they will impact noise, visual aesthetics, archaeological resources, historical resources. All of these types of impacts have to be analyzed for these large projects and mitigated where feasible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But for big projects that have a lot of impacts — think of, like, a big industrial project, maybe a large subdivision out on green space, farmland, maybe transmission lines, logging projects, et cetera. Those kinds of projects have multiple types of impacts. They’ll impact the air quality, they’ll impact endangered species habitat, they will impact noise, visual aesthetics, archaeological resources, historical resources. All of these types of impacts have to be analyzed for these large projects and mitigated where feasible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And at that point, the public, if there’s maybe an economic competitor, if they’re neighbors, uh… There’s environmental groups — they have the ability to sue if those impacts are not analyzed properly and the mitigation measures aren’t adequate, uh… And so that’s really where the leverage comes into play, and it’s often at the very end of the process when a developer’s already sort of lined up a lot of their financing, figured out where legally they’re allowed to proceed under the land-use laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And at that point, the public, if there’s maybe an economic competitor, if they’re neighbors, uh… There’s environmental groups — they have the ability to sue if those impacts are not analyzed properly and the mitigation measures aren’t adequate, uh… And so that’s really where the leverage comes into play, and it’s often at the very end of the process when a developer’s already sort of lined up a lot of their financing, figured out where legally they’re allowed to proceed under the land-use laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so for developers, for industry, they hate this law because it injects a huge amount of uncertainty really right at the end of the process. And by delaying projects, that costs money. I mean, time is money for developers. And while the law is not meant to stop any projects, it can effectively do so if there’s litigation that draws out the timelines by many years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so for developers, for industry, they hate this law because it injects a huge amount of uncertainty really right at the end of the process. And by delaying projects, that costs money. I mean, time is money for developers. And while the law is not meant to stop any projects, it can effectively do so if there’s litigation that draws out the timelines by many years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. And then, so how long does CEQA review actually take in some of those instances? On average, maybe, and then in the worst-case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. And then, so how long does CEQA review actually take in some of those instances? On average, maybe, and then in the worst-case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I haven’t really looked at the data on this. I mean, anecdotally, what you hear is that if it does go to an environmental impact report and is litigated, it can take a couple of years sometimes. I mean, in some cases, there have been some high-profile cases that have lasted decades. Those are very controversial, very large projects. And usually, there’s other factors involved. But I would guess that’s probably a year or two to resolve.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I haven’t really looked at the data on this. I mean, anecdotally, what you hear is that if it does go to an environmental impact report and is litigated, it can take a couple of years sometimes. I mean, in some cases, there have been some high-profile cases that have lasted decades. Those are very controversial, very large projects. And usually, there’s other factors involved. But I would guess that’s probably a year or two to resolve.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then CEQA — you know, we see CEQA come up again for folks who are just tuning in, the California Environmental Quality Act. So Ethan Elkind, people are often critical of CEQA saying, like, look at what happened at Berkeley with student housing. Can you sort of spell out what was that example for us, and what is — how common is that kind of thing to happen?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then CEQA — you know, we see CEQA come up again for folks who are just tuning in, the California Environmental Quality Act. So Ethan Elkind, people are often critical of CEQA saying, like, look at what happened at Berkeley with student housing. Can you sort of spell out what was that example for us, and what is — how common is that kind of thing to happen?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the issue that there are these high-profile lawsuits that just look kind of ridiculous on their face, and then people throw up their hands and say CEQA is being abused and it really should go away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the issue that there are these high-profile lawsuits that just look kind of ridiculous on their face, and then people throw up their hands and say CEQA is being abused and it really should go away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in this particular case, you had student housing proposed at People’s Park in Berkeley, and the courts ruled that essentially students were an environmental impact. I mean, I’m sort of saying this a little superficially here, but the result of it was to hold up a really badly needed student housing project that the university wanted to move forward on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in this particular case, you had student housing proposed at People’s Park in Berkeley, and the courts ruled that essentially students were an environmental impact. I mean, I’m sort of saying this a little superficially here, but the result of it was to hold up a really badly needed student housing project that the university wanted to move forward on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the legislature immediately stepped in in response to the negative publicity, and they amended the law in an emergency statute so that it would go into effect right away instead of in the next year to overrule what the court had decided.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the legislature immediately stepped in in response to the negative publicity, and they amended the law in an emergency statute so that it would go into effect right away instead of in the next year to overrule what the court had decided.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in reality, there are less than 200 lawsuits a year. This has been very well tracked by multiple sources. So litigation is actually quite infrequent. But when it does happen, it makes a lot of headlines. And so you get a sort of anecdotally driven debate on CEQA. We’re not really looking at the actual numbers, which are quite rare.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in reality, there are less than 200 lawsuits a year. This has been very well tracked by multiple sources. So litigation is actually quite infrequent. But when it does happen, it makes a lot of headlines. And so you get a sort of anecdotally driven debate on CEQA. We’re not really looking at the actual numbers, which are quite rare.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although I will say that the threat of lawsuits is very — has a really chilling effect. It’s a big deterrent for a lot of developers. A lot of developers I spoke to, if they think there’s any risk of a CEQA lawsuit for a project, they won’t move forward. They’ll choose a different area or they’ll design the project differently. So even though litigation is rare, I do acknowledge that it has a chilling effect on a lot of developers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although I will say that the threat of lawsuits is very — has a really chilling effect. It’s a big deterrent for a lot of developers. A lot of developers I spoke to, if they think there’s any risk of a CEQA lawsuit for a project, they won’t move forward. They’ll choose a different area or they’ll design the project differently. So even though litigation is rare, I do acknowledge that it has a chilling effect on a lot of developers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So now let’s talk about Prop 45. Californians are going to see that on our ballots this year. If you’ve already received yours in the mail, it’s right there. What is Prop 45 proposing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So now let’s talk about Prop 45. Californians are going to see that on our ballots this year. If you’ve already received yours in the mail, it’s right there. What is Prop 45 proposing?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, Prop 45 would dramatically scale back the scope and timeline of environmental review for what its backers have called essential projects. And these are high-impact, often very polluting types of projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, Prop 45 would dramatically scale back the scope and timeline of environmental review for what its backers have called essential projects. And these are high-impact, often very polluting types of projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So housing, which would mean all types of subdivisions, large-scale subdivisions over open space that generate a lot of traffic and can eat up a lot of endangered species habitat. Renewable energy projects. All types of transportation projects, with the exception of high-speed rail, so freeways, freeway widening. Uh… Dams and irrigation projects, logging projects. Broadband infrastructure projects, which some have interpreted to potentially cover data centers as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So housing, which would mean all types of subdivisions, large-scale subdivisions over open space that generate a lot of traffic and can eat up a lot of endangered species habitat. Renewable energy projects. All types of transportation projects, with the exception of high-speed rail, so freeways, freeway widening. Uh… Dams and irrigation projects, logging projects. Broadband infrastructure projects, which some have interpreted to potentially cover data centers as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s a wide swath of projects. These are backed by some of the big industry groups in the state. This proposition is backed by some big industry groups in the state. And it would essentially allow the developer to define the scope of the impact. So it would be a greatly narrowed set of impacts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it’s a wide swath of projects. These are backed by some of the big industry groups in the state. This proposition is backed by some big industry groups in the state. And it would essentially allow the developer to define the scope of the impact. So it would be a greatly narrowed set of impacts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There would be a dramatically reduced shot clock on deeming the CEQA review complete, so just 90 days, with some exceptions. And it will be really hard for the public to be able to challenge any of these CEQA decisions. It raises the bar for any sort of judicial attacks on what decision-makers have done on CEQA. It’s hard and will make it hard for the legislature to amend this proposition. It would require a two-thirds majority of the legislature to amend itself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There would be a dramatically reduced shot clock on deeming the CEQA review complete, so just 90 days, with some exceptions. And it will be really hard for the public to be able to challenge any of these CEQA decisions. It raises the bar for any sort of judicial attacks on what decision-makers have done on CEQA. It’s hard and will make it hard for the legislature to amend this proposition. It would require a two-thirds majority of the legislature to amend itself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Basically, for some of the biggest projects in the state, it would dramatically scale back the type of review, the shot clock, and the ability of the public to challenge any decision-making under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Basically, for some of the biggest projects in the state, it would dramatically scale back the type of review, the shot clock, and the ability of the public to challenge any decision-making under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, and then I want to talk about data centers because that has really come into this conversation in the last few months, and we are already getting lots of comments on that. So, okay, talk about why people are concerned that data centers might be part of this proposition.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, and then I want to talk about data centers because that has really come into this conversation in the last few months, and we are already getting lots of comments on that. So, okay, talk about why people are concerned that data centers might be part of this proposition.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, the issue is that they’re not explicitly excluded. This project — this proposition — does explicitly exclude high-speed rail, as I mentioned. It also excludes a Delta conveyance tunnel, but it did not exclude data centers, and the way that they’ve written what an essential project is for broadband infrastructure could arguably include data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, the issue is that they’re not explicitly excluded. This project — this proposition — does explicitly exclude high-speed rail, as I mentioned. It also excludes a Delta conveyance tunnel, but it did not exclude data centers, and the way that they’ve written what an essential project is for broadband infrastructure could arguably include data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I don’t think it’s an open-and-shut case, but I think you’re gonna see developers of all types of projects try to argue that their projects are essential. And we don’t know how courts would decide on this. They’re supposed to be giving a lot of deference to industry under this proposition. And so I don’t think we have any assurance that data centers wouldn’t qualify for the benefits that Prop 45 would offer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I don’t think it’s an open-and-shut case, but I think you’re gonna see developers of all types of projects try to argue that their projects are essential. And we don’t know how courts would decide on this. They’re supposed to be giving a lot of deference to industry under this proposition. And so I don’t think we have any assurance that data centers wouldn’t qualify for the benefits that Prop 45 would offer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Interesting, because a lot of this debate about data centers is looking into the future and saying, well, maybe a lawsuit could happen. And from your position, Ethan Elkind, at UC Berkeley as a lawyer, it potentially could.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Interesting, because a lot of this debate about data centers is looking into the future and saying, well, maybe a lawsuit could happen. And from your position, Ethan Elkind, at UC Berkeley as a lawyer, it potentially could.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s the whole issue with this. It’s going to create a lot of judicial uncertainty because there’s a lot of vagueness in how essential projects are defined. You’re going to want to see every single project developer argue that their project is essential.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s the whole issue with this. It’s going to create a lot of judicial uncertainty because there’s a lot of vagueness in how essential projects are defined. You’re going to want to see every single project developer argue that their project is essential.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because of the way this proposition is written, we don’t know how courts are going to come out on this. So it does inject a lot of uncertainty. Like I said, they knew they could have excluded data centers. When they wrote this proposition, data centers were unpopular at the time. There’s a reason they excluded high-speed rail and Delta conveyance and some other things. They chose not to exclude data centers. So that, I think, is very telling on its face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because of the way this proposition is written, we don’t know how courts are going to come out on this. So it does inject a lot of uncertainty. Like I said, they knew they could have excluded data centers. When they wrote this proposition, data centers were unpopular at the time. There’s a reason they excluded high-speed rail and Delta conveyance and some other things. They chose not to exclude data centers. So that, I think, is very telling on its face.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> All right, well, briefly, when CEQA is at its best, what does it do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> All right, well, briefly, when CEQA is at its best, what does it do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it allows the public to have some information about what a project is going to do to the environment, to their community. It gives the public an opportunity to weigh in, and it gives decision-makers an opportunity to understand what they’re approving.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it allows the public to have some information about what a project is going to do to the environment, to their community. It gives the public an opportunity to weigh in, and it gives decision-makers an opportunity to understand what they’re approving.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And more importantly than all of this is that when there are impacts, they’re required to be mitigated, again, when feasible. And so it not only gives the public and decision-makers information, it makes sure that we try to lessen the environmental impacts of big projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And more importantly than all of this is that when there are impacts, they’re required to be mitigated, again, when feasible. And so it not only gives the public and decision-makers information, it makes sure that we try to lessen the environmental impacts of big projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>All right, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, known as CEQA. And we are joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>All right, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, known as CEQA. And we are joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. What are your questions about Prop 45 and the California Environmental Quality Act? Give us a call. Or email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. All those places, we’re at KQED Forum. Or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. What are your questions about Prop 45 and the California Environmental Quality Act? Give us a call. Or email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. All those places, we’re at KQED Forum. Or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, which is called CEQA. That just rolls off the tongue.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, which is called CEQA. That just rolls off the tongue.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind. He’s the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. And we are now welcoming in two additional people.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind. He’s the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. And we are now welcoming in two additional people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have Jason Elliott. He is the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. He helped craft Prop 45. And we also have Jordan Grimes. He’s the legislative director with the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. He’s part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have Jason Elliott. He is the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. He helped craft Prop 45. And we also have Jordan Grimes. He’s the legislative director with the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. He’s part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you have heard Ethan. He shared his interpretations of CEQA and Prop 45. Jason, I saw that you were shaking your head a bit on some of that stuff. Give us what that shaking of a head was about.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So you have heard Ethan. He shared his interpretations of CEQA and Prop 45. Jason, I saw that you were shaking your head a bit on some of that stuff. Give us what that shaking of a head was about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> First of all, thanks for hosting this \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> today. I think that everyone wants to talk for an hour about the intricacies of environmental review law.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> First of all, thanks for hosting this \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> today. I think that everyone wants to talk for an hour about the intricacies of environmental review law.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So stick with us, folks. That and Taylor Swift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So stick with us, folks. That and Taylor Swift.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I can get Taylor Swift in here somehow.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I can get Taylor Swift in here somehow.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I appreciate the professor’s blessings upon Ethan for explaining CEQA, which is one of the most complicated laws in California. I do take a little bit of exception to some of the characterization of Prop 45, because I’ve heard some of those talking points, and they’re the talking points of our opponents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I appreciate the professor’s blessings upon Ethan for explaining CEQA, which is one of the most complicated laws in California. I do take a little bit of exception to some of the characterization of Prop 45, because I’ve heard some of those talking points, and they’re the talking points of our opponents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But let’s talk about what is happening here. Look, California has decided what it wants. It wants cleaner air. It wants clean water. It wants affordable and clean energy. It wants housing you can afford.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But let’s talk about what is happening here. Look, California has decided what it wants. It wants cleaner air. It wants clean water. It wants affordable and clean energy. It wants housing you can afford.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Frankly, over the years, voters have voted on and the legislature has passed a number of bills to move us towards those goals. We funded it, we’ve passed bonds, we’ve done spending programs, but what we haven’t done is we haven’t built those things. We haven’t provided housing you could afford. We haven’t provided abundant clean energy at the level we need.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Frankly, over the years, voters have voted on and the legislature has passed a number of bills to move us towards those goals. We funded it, we’ve passed bonds, we’ve done spending programs, but what we haven’t done is we haven’t built those things. We haven’t provided housing you could afford. We haven’t provided abundant clean energy at the level we need.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Prop 45 is on the ballot because a state that can’t build what it promises isn’t protecting the environment. It’s not creating cleaner water. It’s protecting the status quo. And that’s really what Prop 45 was about. It’s about shaking up that status quo.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Prop 45 is on the ballot because a state that can’t build what it promises isn’t protecting the environment. It’s not creating cleaner water. It’s protecting the status quo. And that’s really what Prop 45 was about. It’s about shaking up that status quo.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have the toughest environmental rules in America, in California. I worked in government for 18 years. I helped craft a number of those environmental rules. I’m very proud of those.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We have the toughest environmental rules in America, in California. I worked in government for 18 years. I helped craft a number of those environmental rules. I’m very proud of those.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Proposition 45 leaves every single environmental protection that’s in law today — leaves it intact. That’s true for laws that protect against paving over prime agricultural land. It’s true about laws that protect against paving over wetlands. It’s true about laws that protect against clear-cutting in our forests. All of those laws continue to exist untouched by Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Proposition 45 leaves every single environmental protection that’s in law today — leaves it intact. That’s true for laws that protect against paving over prime agricultural land. It’s true about laws that protect against paving over wetlands. It’s true about laws that protect against clear-cutting in our forests. All of those laws continue to exist untouched by Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does do is it ends the acceptance of endless delay as the status quo. As I said, I’ve worked in California politics and state and local government for 17, 18 years before I left and founded my firm. No one ever once said to me, California builds things way too fast. That’s never been the problem, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does do is it ends the acceptance of endless delay as the status quo. As I said, I’ve worked in California politics and state and local government for 17, 18 years before I left and founded my firm. No one ever once said to me, California builds things way too fast. That’s never been the problem, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Our inability to execute against our own environmental and housing goals erodes our credibility to lead on environmentalism and inclusion. Prop 45 speeds up schools. It speeds up electricity projects and water without sacrificing any environmental review.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Our inability to execute against our own environmental and housing goals erodes our credibility to lead on environmentalism and inclusion. Prop 45 speeds up schools. It speeds up electricity projects and water without sacrificing any environmental review.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I just want to make one sort of clarification. This is less an argument about Prop 45 and more just a thing that I think would maybe be helpful for the listeners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I just want to make one sort of clarification. This is less an argument about Prop 45 and more just a thing that I think would maybe be helpful for the listeners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>CEQA, as Ethan described it, he described what CEQA is, I think, very well. CEQA is environmental review. What CEQA is not is land-use decision-making or environmental regulation setting.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>CEQA, as Ethan described it, he described what CEQA is, I think, very well. CEQA is environmental review. What CEQA is not is land-use decision-making or environmental regulation setting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in California, the state government and local governments decide where they wanna put housing, and then they zone for it. They decide how much new electricity infrastructure and where they want schools, and they zone for those things. The state has planning processes around providing clean water to people. They decide how to deploy money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in California, the state government and local governments decide where they wanna put housing, and then they zone for it. They decide how much new electricity infrastructure and where they want schools, and they zone for those things. The state has planning processes around providing clean water to people. They decide how to deploy money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>All of those processes, all of the land-use processes and the law-setting processes, are different than CEQA. Those happen through public process with public comment, publicly noticed meetings, and so forth, and years of council hearings. That’s a totally different thing than CEQA.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>All of those processes, all of the land-use processes and the law-setting processes, are different than CEQA. Those happen through public process with public comment, publicly noticed meetings, and so forth, and years of council hearings. That’s a totally different thing than CEQA.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>CEQA is the environmental review that occurs after a community has decided, we think this is where housing should go. We wanna get water infrastructure, we wanna get a new hospital built here.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>CEQA is the environmental review that occurs after a community has decided, we think this is where housing should go. We wanna get water infrastructure, we wanna get a new hospital built here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Once the community has decided we’re gonna zone this parcel of land over here for a hospital, developers do their thing or public agencies do their thing and bring a project forward. And then CEQA is the safety review at the end of that planning process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Once the community has decided we’re gonna zone this parcel of land over here for a hospital, developers do their thing or public agencies do their thing and bring a project forward. And then CEQA is the safety review at the end of that planning process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think it’s really important for people to understand that Proposition 45 doesn’t touch, or purport to touch in any way, the land-use planning powers that state and local governments have. They — every data center was mentioned in the intro. Proposition 45 does not cover data centers, period. We can have a longer conversation about that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think it’s really important for people to understand that Proposition 45 doesn’t touch, or purport to touch in any way, the land-use planning powers that state and local governments have. They — every data center was mentioned in the intro. Proposition 45 does not cover data centers, period. We can have a longer conversation about that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ll talk about that in a little bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ll talk about that in a little bit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> But just to make the point, and I won’t fight that fight right now because I’m sure it’ll come up. If a community doesn’t want a data center in their city, just don’t zone for one, just don’t approve one. And then CEQA is irrelevant because the underlying land use won’t allow for that data center.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> But just to make the point, and I won’t fight that fight right now because I’m sure it’ll come up. If a community doesn’t want a data center in their city, just don’t zone for one, just don’t approve one. And then CEQA is irrelevant because the underlying land use won’t allow for that data center.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a key point to make, is that we’re gonna keep differentiating because opponents of this measure obscure that line to try to be hyperbolic. I think it’s important to pull those things apart.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a key point to make, is that we’re gonna keep differentiating because opponents of this measure obscure that line to try to be hyperbolic. I think it’s important to pull those things apart.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Land-use authority, what goes in your community, remains the power of your mayor, your city council, your board of supervisors. Prop 45 doesn’t impact that.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Land-use authority, what goes in your community, remains the power of your mayor, your city council, your board of supervisors. Prop 45 doesn’t impact that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing from Jason Elliott. He’s the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. We also have Jordan Grimes here, the legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing from Jason Elliott. He’s the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. We also have Jordan Grimes here, the legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jordan, what we’ve just heard is largely an argument around streamlining CEQA. It is not about the decision around land use, as Jason’s telling us. What about Prop 45 concerns you? You’re part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jordan, what we’ve just heard is largely an argument around streamlining CEQA. It is not about the decision around land use, as Jason’s telling us. What about Prop 45 concerns you? You’re part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you so much for having me back. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you so much for having me back. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, there are many, I would say, problematic aspects with the measure. It’s hard to know where to start with, I think, the things that are most concerning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, there are many, I would say, problematic aspects with the measure. It’s hard to know where to start with, I think, the things that are most concerning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, to step back, as we are discussing both with Jason and with Ethan, the Environmental Quality Act is fundamentally this law that provides protection to communities. It’s not about delay, although certainly that has been a tactic that bad actors have used. But fundamentally, it is about review. It is about looking at and analyzing whether or not there’s potential for environmental harm and then requiring mitigation of that harm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, to step back, as we are discussing both with Jason and with Ethan, the Environmental Quality Act is fundamentally this law that provides protection to communities. It’s not about delay, although certainly that has been a tactic that bad actors have used. But fundamentally, it is about review. It is about looking at and analyzing whether or not there’s potential for environmental harm and then requiring mitigation of that harm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so it is the first line of defense for many communities. And ultimately, what Prop 45 does is strip away many of the protections inherent in that law.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so it is the first line of defense for many communities. And ultimately, what Prop 45 does is strip away many of the protections inherent in that law.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The timelines, I think, are some of the most reasonable pieces of the initiative, although, again, it doesn’t differentiate between size of projects. It doesn’t differentiate, I think, between geography, where a project is, if it’s in a greenfield, if you’re paving over open space, or if you are in a city, for example. So I think that is inherently problematic in the initiative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The timelines, I think, are some of the most reasonable pieces of the initiative, although, again, it doesn’t differentiate between size of projects. It doesn’t differentiate, I think, between geography, where a project is, if it’s in a greenfield, if you’re paving over open space, or if you are in a city, for example. So I think that is inherently problematic in the initiative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Will Jordan tell us what those timelines are?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Will Jordan tell us what those timelines are?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the explicit timelines in the initiative are, generally speaking, 365 days for a full environmental impact report. Okay. You know, there are other timelines dependent on the type of environmental review, some jargony acronyms that we won’t get into too much, as we sort of discussed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the explicit timelines in the initiative are, generally speaking, 365 days for a full environmental impact report. Okay. You know, there are other timelines dependent on the type of environmental review, some jargony acronyms that we won’t get into too much, as we sort of discussed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Basically —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Basically —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jargon for this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jargon for this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s basically putting a time limit on the environmental review and then also curtailing lawsuits around it, right? But it’s not just letting them go on for an indefinite period of time.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It’s basically putting a time limit on the environmental review and then also curtailing lawsuits around it, right? But it’s not just letting them go on for an indefinite period of time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And we’ve talked about that, but it’s actually quite a bit more than that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And we’ve talked about that, but it’s actually quite a bit more than that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> What are the other concerns you have with it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> What are the other concerns you have with it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Quite a few. I think the most concerning one for me is a new private right of action for developers to be able to sue municipalities if they deny a project or if they require sort of different mitigations that the developer views as unlawful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Quite a few. I think the most concerning one for me is a new private right of action for developers to be able to sue municipalities if they deny a project or if they require sort of different mitigations that the developer views as unlawful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s something that is a huge change to CEQA, that is to the Environmental Quality Act, that isn’t there right now. There’s also a provision that basically says if there is a conflict between other environmental laws, that the initiative provisions prevail.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s something that is a huge change to CEQA, that is to the Environmental Quality Act, that isn’t there right now. There’s also a provision that basically says if there is a conflict between other environmental laws, that the initiative provisions prevail.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are provisions that severely limit what a court can consider and that severely limits what a court can consider even after — even if environmental harm has been found. The court is very limited in its remedies under the initiative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are provisions that severely limit what a court can consider and that severely limits what a court can consider even after — even if environmental harm has been found. The court is very limited in its remedies under the initiative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there are, I think, a litany of different things with this measure that go far beyond the timelines, many of which I think would be reasonable for certain projects. If we are talking about an apartment building in San Francisco, for example, the timelines that the initiative have in place might even be too long. It might not even make sense to do a year for an apartment project in Hayes Valley.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there are, I think, a litany of different things with this measure that go far beyond the timelines, many of which I think would be reasonable for certain projects. If we are talking about an apartment building in San Francisco, for example, the timelines that the initiative have in place might even be too long. It might not even make sense to do a year for an apartment project in Hayes Valley.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Um, but if you’re talking about, uh, a new, you know, exurban development in the wildland-urban interface in a high-fire area, um, one of your, uh, I would say probably wouldn’t be enough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Um, but if you’re talking about, uh, a new, you know, exurban development in the wildland-urban interface in a high-fire area, um, one of your, uh, I would say probably wouldn’t be enough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to go to a caller now. We have Jim in Richmond. Jim, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thanks for calling in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to go to a caller now. We have Jim in Richmond. Jim, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thanks for calling in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you, and thank you for holding the show. As somebody who has read CEQA documents here in the Bay Area on really, frankly, bad projects, I want to tell you that as a citizen, we will — and even the city will — approach a developer to try to cause less damage to habitat or traffic, and without CEQA, or without the ability to challenge it, this really feels like one of those TV shows where you’re running across a lake and you’re competing against people, you know, jumping across these rubber balls or whatever.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you, and thank you for holding the show. As somebody who has read CEQA documents here in the Bay Area on really, frankly, bad projects, I want to tell you that as a citizen, we will — and even the city will — approach a developer to try to cause less damage to habitat or traffic, and without CEQA, or without the ability to challenge it, this really feels like one of those TV shows where you’re running across a lake and you’re competing against people, you know, jumping across these rubber balls or whatever.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s so many obstacles. It just seems impossible at this point. It really feels undemocratic. And I’d like you to address the cost of this as reported in the state pamphlet. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s so many obstacles. It just seems impossible at this point. It really feels undemocratic. And I’d like you to address the cost of this as reported in the state pamphlet. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Jason, can you address this? Does it take away someone’s ability to challenge?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Jason, can you address this? Does it take away someone’s ability to challenge?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> And thanks for the call, Jim. I appreciate your advocacy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> And thanks for the call, Jim. I appreciate your advocacy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>No, it doesn’t take away someone’s ability to challenge it. Let me draw an analogy. I mean, I could go through the provision measure by measure, but this show isn’t long enough. So let me draw an analogy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>No, it doesn’t take away someone’s ability to challenge it. Let me draw an analogy. I mean, I could go through the provision measure by measure, but this show isn’t long enough. So let me draw an analogy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you think about CEQA and the environmental impact report, so CEQA requires big projects to do the environmental impact report, which is what Ethan had laid out at the top of the hour. Think about the environmental impact report like the SAT test that we probably all endured when we were high schoolers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you think about CEQA and the environmental impact report, so CEQA requires big projects to do the environmental impact report, which is what Ethan had laid out at the top of the hour. Think about the environmental impact report like the SAT test that we probably all endured when we were high schoolers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The question — Prop 45 doesn’t make the questions on the SAT easier. It doesn’t allow you to skip the SAT and go straight to college. Proposition 45 doesn’t limit any of those things.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The question — Prop 45 doesn’t make the questions on the SAT easier. It doesn’t allow you to skip the SAT and go straight to college. Proposition 45 doesn’t limit any of those things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does is say, once you’ve done the SAT, the grader — the state, the city — has a timeline in which they have to grade the SAT and give you your score back, so you can go ahead and apply to college in a timely fashion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does is say, once you’ve done the SAT, the grader — the state, the city — has a timeline in which they have to grade the SAT and give you your score back, so you can go ahead and apply to college in a timely fashion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s a timeline, right? It also says that while the grader’s grading your SAT test, the grader can’t say, well, you know, we don’t think that that’s how calculus works anymore. We’re gonna just, like, change one of the rules about log functions. And so you kind of have — you have to start over on the SAT.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s a timeline, right? It also says that while the grader’s grading your SAT test, the grader can’t say, well, you know, we don’t think that that’s how calculus works anymore. We’re gonna just, like, change one of the rules about log functions. And so you kind of have — you have to start over on the SAT.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s how CEQA works today. The way CEQA works is you can finish your environmental impact report with mitigations to make sure that you’re having that conversation with community and local government, get rid of the worst parts of a project that are the most harmful to communities, right?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>That’s how CEQA works today. The way CEQA works is you can finish your environmental impact report with mitigations to make sure that you’re having that conversation with community and local government, get rid of the worst parts of a project that are the most harmful to communities, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>All of that stays intact. All of the mitigation processes, all of that public feedback all stays intact. But once you’re done with that EIR, with that SAT test, it gets graded in a timely fashion, so you can build your project.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>All of that stays intact. All of the mitigation processes, all of that public feedback all stays intact. But once you’re done with that EIR, with that SAT test, it gets graded in a timely fashion, so you can build your project.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In our case, we estimate that it will cut the time for projects with EIRs in half, from about 3.1 years to about one and a half years. So it’s half the time, but all the protections.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In our case, we estimate that it will cut the time for projects with EIRs in half, from about 3.1 years to about one and a half years. So it’s half the time, but all the protections.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s the key point: it doesn’t strip away any protections. It doesn’t eliminate CEQA. So what I heard in Jim’s question was, Prop 45 would eliminate the public’s ability to raise these concerns. It won’t eliminate it. That’s a misconception, so I want to address that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s the key point: it doesn’t strip away any protections. It doesn’t eliminate CEQA. So what I heard in Jim’s question was, Prop 45 would eliminate the public’s ability to raise these concerns. It won’t eliminate it. That’s a misconception, so I want to address that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it does say that let’s get this stuff done in a timely fashion, so that we can get good projects approved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it does say that let’s get this stuff done in a timely fashion, so that we can get good projects approved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And last point I’ll make on this, Proposition 45 leaves intact every local government’s ability to reject an EIR and reject the project. There are no automatic approvals anywhere in Proposition 45. So if a developer brings forward a truly bad environmental project, the city council could just go ahead and reject it and reject the EIR and/or reject the underlying project.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And last point I’ll make on this, Proposition 45 leaves intact every local government’s ability to reject an EIR and reject the project. There are no automatic approvals anywhere in Proposition 45. So if a developer brings forward a truly bad environmental project, the city council could just go ahead and reject it and reject the EIR and/or reject the underlying project.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jordan, how does this sound for you when we’re thinking about what Jim is saying, the ability to challenge a project? Do you feel like it would be harder when Prop 45, if it passes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jordan, how does this sound for you when we’re thinking about what Jim is saying, the ability to challenge a project? Do you feel like it would be harder when Prop 45, if it passes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. A hundred percent. You’re significantly limiting in terms of what the public is allowed to comment on, right? There are provisions that severely limit public comment. You are limiting the timelines in which the public comments are made.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. A hundred percent. You’re significantly limiting in terms of what the public is allowed to comment on, right? There are provisions that severely limit public comment. You are limiting the timelines in which the public comments are made.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Do it for —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Do it for —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> It’s a time limitation. It’s not a qualitative limitation, so let’s make sure we’re accurate about what the measure does.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> It’s a time limitation. It’s not a qualitative limitation, so let’s make sure we’re accurate about what the measure does.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right, but it does put a date —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right, but it does put a date —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Like the amount of days, okay?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Like the amount of days, okay?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yes, it’s a time limit, not a subjective limit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yes, it’s a time limit, not a subjective limit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> You are limited in terms of vesting. If environmental conditions change on the ground, you are locked into a certain vesting schedule. So basically, things would go — everything would shift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> You are limited in terms of vesting. If environmental conditions change on the ground, you are locked into a certain vesting schedule. So basically, things would go — everything would shift.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, for example, right now, if an EIR was being conducted and conditions changed —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, for example, right now, if an EIR was being conducted and conditions changed —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s the environmental impact report.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s the environmental impact report.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes. Sorry about the jargon. If an environmental impact report was being conducted and conditions on the ground shifted in terms of habitat, in terms of various other things, right now, as the process works, those things can be considered.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes. Sorry about the jargon. If an environmental impact report was being conducted and conditions on the ground shifted in terms of habitat, in terms of various other things, right now, as the process works, those things can be considered.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The way the initiative would change the Environmental Quality Act would mean that you could not consider those. The conditions on the ground at the time of the project application would be locked in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The way the initiative would change the Environmental Quality Act would mean that you could not consider those. The conditions on the ground at the time of the project application would be locked in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Like, read the very start.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Like, read the very start.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And then the last thing I’ll just say is, yes, a city council or local jurisdiction could deny a project, with the potential that a developer could sue. And so there’s this chilling effect now under this new private right of action, right, where a municipality would have to weigh, do we want to deny this project? Do we want to risk getting sued by a project developer?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And then the last thing I’ll just say is, yes, a city council or local jurisdiction could deny a project, with the potential that a developer could sue. And so there’s this chilling effect now under this new private right of action, right, where a municipality would have to weigh, do we want to deny this project? Do we want to risk getting sued by a project developer?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And again, we’re not just talking about projects that are potentially environmentally beneficial, right? You know, new housing in places we want to see it, bike lanes, public transit. We’re talking about some really potentially harmful projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And again, we’re not just talking about projects that are potentially environmentally beneficial, right? You know, new housing in places we want to see it, bike lanes, public transit. We’re talking about some really potentially harmful projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Schools, clinics, hospitals, parks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Clean energy, clean water facilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Sure, that’s the side that’s a —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Sure, that’s the side that’s a —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I’ve also seen the no side saying, well, what about freeway expansion? We’re talking, like, we’re talking —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I’ve also seen the no side saying, well, what about freeway expansion? We’re talking, like, we’re talking —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Is that also included? Freeway expansions are absolutely included. We’re talking about CO2 pipelines. We are talking about exurban developments in high-fire areas. There’s a lot of different things that this project allows. Some of them are good. Some of them, I think, deserve that streamlining.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Is that also included? Freeway expansions are absolutely included. We’re talking about CO2 pipelines. We are talking about exurban developments in high-fire areas. There’s a lot of different things that this project allows. Some of them are good. Some of them, I think, deserve that streamlining.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we are looking at is, on net, is this better than the status quo? And our calculation is absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we are looking at is, on net, is this better than the status quo? And our calculation is absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, okay. We’re gonna go to — we’re going to go to a caller, and then there’s lots of time to talk about these different things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, okay. We’re gonna go to — we’re going to go to a caller, and then there’s lots of time to talk about these different things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay. Lisa, we are going to go to you in San Francisco. Lisa, thank you for calling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay. Lisa, we are going to go to you in San Francisco. Lisa, thank you for calling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Good morning. My head is spinning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Good morning. My head is spinning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> You’re not the only one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> You’re not the only one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Yeah. This is a great debate, but I think for me, in this horrific time where, you know, these astroturf super PACs pop up named, you know, Neighborhoods for San Francisco or whatever. And it’s the real estate lobby or the apartment owners association or what have you, or developers, market-rate developers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Yeah. This is a great debate, but I think for me, in this horrific time where, you know, these astroturf super PACs pop up named, you know, Neighborhoods for San Francisco or whatever. And it’s the real estate lobby or the apartment owners association or what have you, or developers, market-rate developers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I want to know from both of your guests, the proponent and the opponent, I would like to know who the major sponsors pro and their money, and I would like to know who are the sponsors against? Because we know that organizations like the San Francisco — the Sierra Club has been captured by real estate forces. I mean, everything is through the looking glass now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I want to know from both of your guests, the proponent and the opponent, I would like to know who the major sponsors pro and their money, and I would like to know who are the sponsors against? Because we know that organizations like the San Francisco — the Sierra Club has been captured by real estate forces. I mean, everything is through the looking glass now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So who are the funders of this initiative?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So who are the funders of this initiative?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. Streamline, I’m triggered. Yes, there’s millions of dollars behind this initiative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. Streamline, I’m triggered. Yes, there’s millions of dollars behind this initiative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So actually, I know you were asking to go to Jason and Jordan. I’m gonna actually see if Ethan, if you could answer this one. Ethan Elkind with UC Berkeley, where’s the money coming from from both sides?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So actually, I know you were asking to go to Jason and Jordan. I’m gonna actually see if Ethan, if you could answer this one. Ethan Elkind with UC Berkeley, where’s the money coming from from both sides?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I don’t have encyclopedic knowledge, but I have looked at the backers. I mean, you have the Building Industry Association as a major backer of this. They’re the big sprawl developers in the state. You have the Chamber of Commerce supporting this initiative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I don’t have encyclopedic knowledge, but I have looked at the backers. I mean, you have the Building Industry Association as a major backer of this. They’re the big sprawl developers in the state. You have the Chamber of Commerce supporting this initiative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You basically have a lot of industry groups that are supporting this. On the con side, you’ve got environmental groups, and then you’ve got labor unions that often use CEQA as leverage to try to get project labor agreements, uh… for their union members, uh… And then, you know, it’s a grab bag of other folks, but I’m sure Jordan and Jason could speak in more detail. But that’s the general gist on the yes and the no side.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You basically have a lot of industry groups that are supporting this. On the con side, you’ve got environmental groups, and then you’ve got labor unions that often use CEQA as leverage to try to get project labor agreements, uh… for their union members, uh… And then, you know, it’s a grab bag of other folks, but I’m sure Jordan and Jason could speak in more detail. But that’s the general gist on the yes and the no side.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re going to come back to that because we’re about to take a break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re going to come back to that because we’re about to take a break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind of UC Berkeley, Jason Elliott, president of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions, and Jordan Grimes, legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind of UC Berkeley, Jason Elliott, president of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions, and Jordan Grimes, legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. How are you planning to vote on Prop 45 and why? Email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum, or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. How are you planning to vote on Prop 45 and why? Email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum, or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45. It’s a ballot measure that is proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law called CEQA.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45. It’s a ballot measure that is proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law called CEQA.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are joined by Ethan Elkind, the Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy and the Environment; Jason Elliott, President of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions; and Jordan Grimes, Legislative Director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We are joined by Ethan Elkind, the Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy and the Environment; Jason Elliott, President of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions; and Jordan Grimes, Legislative Director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I want to go to a question that comes from listener Jeff. Jeff writes, “To what extent do the guests believe the passage of Prop 45 will meaningfully change the speed of development, and in what sectors? Is that clean energy, roads, housing?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I want to go to a question that comes from listener Jeff. Jeff writes, “To what extent do the guests believe the passage of Prop 45 will meaningfully change the speed of development, and in what sectors? Is that clean energy, roads, housing?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jason, let’s go to you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jason, let’s go to you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, we do believe that it will speed up development, and that’s the purpose for crafting this measure. And speeding up development, let me say why that’s important.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, we do believe that it will speed up development, and that’s the purpose for crafting this measure. And speeding up development, let me say why that’s important.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Speed on its own is not necessarily a good thing. But when you have housing and clean energy and clean water projects, hospital projects, school projects that are delivered faster, that creates cost savings for local governments.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Speed on its own is not necessarily a good thing. But when you have housing and clean energy and clean water projects, hospital projects, school projects that are delivered faster, that creates cost savings for local governments.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Of the non-housing projects that this measure covers, 76% of them that we expect would be covered by EIRs are projects that are brought forward by your local government, by your city, by your county. So they’re looking to fix a bridge, they’re looking to improve a public restroom facility, they’re looking to build a new school campus, high school campus, whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Of the non-housing projects that this measure covers, 76% of them that we expect would be covered by EIRs are projects that are brought forward by your local government, by your city, by your county. So they’re looking to fix a bridge, they’re looking to improve a public restroom facility, they’re looking to build a new school campus, high school campus, whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>These — the overwhelming majority of projects we believe, not housing, we can talk about housing, is a little different because governments don’t build housing. But of the non-housing projects, the overwhelming majority are public projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>These — the overwhelming majority of projects we believe, not housing, we can talk about housing, is a little different because governments don’t build housing. But of the non-housing projects, the overwhelming majority are public projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The longer that those delay, the more the cost goes up. And it’s not some greedy developer hiding in a back room that bears that cost. It’s you, the taxpayer. So this really is around taxpayer protection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The longer that those delay, the more the cost goes up. And it’s not some greedy developer hiding in a back room that bears that cost. It’s you, the taxpayer. So this really is around taxpayer protection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, because the housing part of this measure and the non-housing part of the measure are similar, but they operate, they function in different ways in terms of speeding things up.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, because the housing part of this measure and the non-housing part of the measure are similar, but they operate, they function in different ways in terms of speeding things up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, the average — we estimate that the average delay from CEQA alone increases the cost when an EIR has to be performed, increases the cost by $75,000 per new home that’s built by the private sector. So reducing time does reduce cost, which makes houses more affordable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, the average — we estimate that the average delay from CEQA alone increases the cost when an EIR has to be performed, increases the cost by $75,000 per new home that’s built by the private sector. So reducing time does reduce cost, which makes houses more affordable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So this really is all around reducing the cost of living by reducing how expensive it is to build stuff.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So this really is all around reducing the cost of living by reducing how expensive it is to build stuff.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> California. And this is one of the reasons why it seems like the Cal Chamber wanted to bring this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> California. And this is one of the reasons why it seems like the Cal Chamber wanted to bring this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so, can you actually give us a number, a year number, like right now it takes an average of this many years to build housing and after this it would, we believe —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so, can you actually give us a number, a year number, like right now it takes an average of this many years to build housing and after this it would, we believe —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll give you a number that I can stand behind, which is how long CEQA delays projects, because how long it takes to build housing can depend on so many factors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll give you a number that I can stand behind, which is how long CEQA delays projects, because how long it takes to build housing can depend on so many factors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in terms of housing, housing projects that have to perform this environmental impact report that we’ve been discussing take on average 3.1 years. Non-housing projects that also have to perform an EIR take on an average of 3.0 years, so about three years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in terms of housing, housing projects that have to perform this environmental impact report that we’ve been discussing take on average 3.1 years. Non-housing projects that also have to perform an EIR take on an average of 3.0 years, so about three years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We anticipate that our measure would, because of the timelines that Jordan mentioned, conclude in 17 months. So you’re talking about roughly half the time. You’re cutting that roughly in half without diminishing any of the underlying environmental protections.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We anticipate that our measure would, because of the timelines that Jordan mentioned, conclude in 17 months. So you’re talking about roughly half the time. You’re cutting that roughly in half without diminishing any of the underlying environmental protections.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s just a key point that keeps getting lost here. The underlying legal environmental protections all remain in place under Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s just a key point that keeps getting lost here. The underlying legal environmental protections all remain in place under Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jordan Grimes from the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. What is your take on how much this, if we pass Prop 45, would speed up development? And then I wanna ask you about cost as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jordan Grimes from the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. What is your take on how much this, if we pass Prop 45, would speed up development? And then I wanna ask you about cost as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. I think the concern, the biggest concern to us, is that it will tremendously speed up projects that are going to harm the environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. I think the concern, the biggest concern to us, is that it will tremendously speed up projects that are going to harm the environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I actually don’t think it will do very much at all for projects that are environmentally beneficial, for the projects that I think people care most about. The California legislature last year granted a clean, complete statutory exemption to infill housing projects. It was a watershed moment for the state in acknowledging that environmental review can be used. For infill, the legislature remedied it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I actually don’t think it will do very much at all for projects that are environmentally beneficial, for the projects that I think people care most about. The California legislature last year granted a clean, complete statutory exemption to infill housing projects. It was a watershed moment for the state in acknowledging that environmental review can be used. For infill, the legislature remedied it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So if you want to build an apartment in Beverly Hills or Palo Alto, you no longer have to go through that environmental review, which will be a huge boon to solving our housing crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So if you want to build an apartment in Beverly Hills or Palo Alto, you no longer have to go through that environmental review, which will be a huge boon to solving our housing crisis.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Likewise, the legislature has provided statutory exemptions for bike lanes, for bus projects, for public transit, for clean energy. And so, realistically, I think the types of projects that Californians are really demanding — the clean energy, the housing projects that we need — we have already exempted those things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Likewise, the legislature has provided statutory exemptions for bike lanes, for bus projects, for public transit, for clean energy. And so, realistically, I think the types of projects that Californians are really demanding — the clean energy, the housing projects that we need — we have already exempted those things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I do think it will speed up projects, but they’re the projects that we don’t want to see. It’s new subdivisions in high wildfire areas. It’s the CO2 pipelines. It’s potentially data centers, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I do think it will speed up projects, but they’re the projects that we don’t want to see. It’s new subdivisions in high wildfire areas. It’s the CO2 pipelines. It’s potentially data centers, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about that, just that housing piece. So what you are saying is that because last year California passed what was called AB 130, it is now — housing developments are exempt in urban areas, right? From CEQA, from all this stuff.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about that, just that housing piece. So what you are saying is that because last year California passed what was called AB 130, it is now — housing developments are exempt in urban areas, right? From CEQA, from all this stuff.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I have seen the no side say, listen, why do we need this if we’ve already gotten that? It’s still rolling out. And that you believe that housing, it would be easier to build housing in wildfire-prone areas. Like a place like Paradise that is, you know, in this gorgeous wooded area, but also very fire-prone, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I have seen the no side say, listen, why do we need this if we’ve already gotten that? It’s still rolling out. And that you believe that housing, it would be easier to build housing in wildfire-prone areas. Like a place like Paradise that is, you know, in this gorgeous wooded area, but also very fire-prone, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Jordan, if you could — or excuse me, Jason, can you tell me what is your take on that? Is it gonna be easier to build housing in these places where we don’t necessarily wanna promote it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Jordan, if you could — or excuse me, Jason, can you tell me what is your take on that? Is it gonna be easier to build housing in these places where we don’t necessarily wanna promote it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great. And thanks, Jordan, for mentioning Assembly Bill 130. I worked for years when I was inside state government to bring that policy forward, to do the politics and the policy, and thank God for Buffy Wicks and Scott Wiener. Amen. Yeah. And they brought that forward.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great. And thanks, Jordan, for mentioning Assembly Bill 130. I worked for years when I was inside state government to bring that policy forward, to do the politics and the policy, and thank God for Buffy Wicks and Scott Wiener. Amen. Yeah. And they brought that forward.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s a huge win. Really proud of the work on that and Governor Newsom for pushing it through the budget. But he pushed it through the budget. The legislature did that. They found their courage, and thank God for Scott Wiener and Buffy Wicks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s a huge win. Really proud of the work on that and Governor Newsom for pushing it through the budget. But he pushed it through the budget. The legislature did that. They found their courage, and thank God for Scott Wiener and Buffy Wicks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, the courage of a couple of legislators is not a statewide housing policy. And in this state, we are millions of units short. I ran housing policy for the state for a number of years. We’re millions of years short, right? Yeah, we’re millions of units short.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, the courage of a couple of legislators is not a statewide housing policy. And in this state, we are millions of units short. I ran housing policy for the state for a number of years. We’re millions of years short, right? Yeah, we’re millions of units short.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when you have this much of a housing deficit in California, you have to build up, but you also have to build out, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when you have this much of a housing deficit in California, you have to build up, but you also have to build out, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it’s really important that we just acknowledge that reality, the uncomfortable reality that some of our environmental opponents — about 100 organizations who opposed AB 130 — we met in the hall, and I know that’s not you, but 100-plus environmental organizations that opposed Assembly Bill 130 last year, that streamlining we were just talking about, they called it, quote, “the worst anti-environmental law in recent history.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think it’s really important that we just acknowledge that reality, the uncomfortable reality that some of our environmental opponents — about 100 organizations who opposed AB 130 — we met in the hall, and I know that’s not you, but 100-plus environmental organizations that opposed Assembly Bill 130 last year, that streamlining we were just talking about, they called it, quote, “the worst anti-environmental law in recent history.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That exact same coalition is now opposing Proposition 45. And I’m not trying to put this on you, Jordan, we just met. You seem like you’re a pro-housing guy, and I appreciate your leadership on that. But let’s talk about who’s behind the opposition to this measure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That exact same coalition is now opposing Proposition 45. And I’m not trying to put this on you, Jordan, we just met. You seem like you’re a pro-housing guy, and I appreciate your leadership on that. But let’s talk about who’s behind the opposition to this measure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It is the same anti-housing environmental groups that for decades, decades, have been blocking the kinds of housing we need.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It is the same anti-housing environmental groups that for decades, decades, have been blocking the kinds of housing we need.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because here’s the thing about Proposition 45. I think it’s another important point to make. Jordan keeps mentioning, and some of the opponents of the measure talk about, well, it’s not just housing. It’s all these other things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because here’s the thing about Proposition 45. I think it’s another important point to make. Jordan keeps mentioning, and some of the opponents of the measure talk about, well, it’s not just housing. It’s all these other things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>All those other things are what make housing complete neighborhoods. A housing unit is just a housing unit until you attach it to water, until you build a school nearby, so forth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>All those other things are what make housing complete neighborhoods. A housing unit is just a housing unit until you attach it to water, until you build a school nearby, so forth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, I see housing — just last point I wanna make on this — you know I’ve been working on these issues for years and years, and the way that I see housing development, it’s like a complicated safe in, like, one of those safe-cracking movies where you gotta get every little pin lined up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, I see housing — just last point I wanna make on this — you know I’ve been working on these issues for years and years, and the way that I see housing development, it’s like a complicated safe in, like, one of those safe-cracking movies where you gotta get every little pin lined up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you don’t have the water and the electricity, you know, one of the big problems we have in this state is interconnection. A new building gets built, but you can’t get power to it, so it just stays empty.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you don’t have the water and the electricity, you know, one of the big problems we have in this state is interconnection. A new building gets built, but you can’t get power to it, so it just stays empty.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You gotta get all these pins, and if one of these pins is just a hair off, you can’t unlock that new neighborhood, you can’t move families in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You gotta get all these pins, and if one of these pins is just a hair off, you can’t unlock that new neighborhood, you can’t move families in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Proposition 45 absolutely does streamline a number of those other things that are necessary. People drive on highways, right? People need to turn on the lights and have clean energy, power their microwaves and so forth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Proposition 45 absolutely does streamline a number of those other things that are necessary. People drive on highways, right? People need to turn on the lights and have clean energy, power their microwaves and so forth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So yes, Proposition 45 is about building those complete neighborhoods because a housing unit is just a paper promise until we connect it to all that infrastructure. Then it becomes a home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So yes, Proposition 45 is about building those complete neighborhoods because a housing unit is just a paper promise until we connect it to all that infrastructure. Then it becomes a home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to bring in Ethan Elkind. He’s from UC Berkeley, a legal expert.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to bring in Ethan Elkind. He’s from UC Berkeley, a legal expert.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ethan, from your legal standpoint, you have seen that AB 130 passed last year. It’s begun to be implemented. How much Prop 45 changes housing development compared to the reforms of the past?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ethan, from your legal standpoint, you have seen that AB 130 passed last year. It’s begun to be implemented. How much Prop 45 changes housing development compared to the reforms of the past?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think, as Jordan said, infill housing — the kinds of environmentally beneficial housing that we want to see — basically got a free pass under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think, as Jordan said, infill housing — the kinds of environmentally beneficial housing that we want to see — basically got a free pass under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the reality is — and Jason basically described this — there are so many barriers to all sorts of projects in the state that go well beyond where environmental review comes into the process, that, you know, by blaming CEQA for all the delays that we have, we’re taking our eye off the ball of all these other problems.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the reality is — and Jason basically described this — there are so many barriers to all sorts of projects in the state that go well beyond where environmental review comes into the process, that, you know, by blaming CEQA for all the delays that we have, we’re taking our eye off the ball of all these other problems.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, Jason described how CEQA does not [involve] local land-use decision-making, but that’s exactly why we’re not really getting at the heart of the problem as to why there are so many delays for projects in the state. We have a lot of different local governments, special districts, utilities, all of which could create a lot of delays for projects that CEQA does not touch.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, Jason described how CEQA does not [involve] local land-use decision-making, but that’s exactly why we’re not really getting at the heart of the problem as to why there are so many delays for projects in the state. We have a lot of different local governments, special districts, utilities, all of which could create a lot of delays for projects that CEQA does not touch.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so your question around how housing is affected, because we’ve already carved out an exemption that really just went into effect for all infill housing projects: the beneficiaries of Prop 45, by narrowing the scope of environmental review, by narrowing the alternatives, by dramatically shortening the shot clock for any sort of challenges, by raising the bar to judicial challenges, the only beneficiaries of that are going to be these sort of large subdivision projects, because all other types of housing in the state is now essentially exempted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so your question around how housing is affected, because we’ve already carved out an exemption that really just went into effect for all infill housing projects: the beneficiaries of Prop 45, by narrowing the scope of environmental review, by narrowing the alternatives, by dramatically shortening the shot clock for any sort of challenges, by raising the bar to judicial challenges, the only beneficiaries of that are going to be these sort of large subdivision projects, because all other types of housing in the state is now essentially exempted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So those are the beneficiaries. It’s going to be a lot harder for the public to be able to hold to account decision-makers who are approving these large subdivisions. We’re going to lose the ability to require mitigation and analyze those impacts really adequately in advance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So those are the beneficiaries. It’s going to be a lot harder for the public to be able to hold to account decision-makers who are approving these large subdivisions. We’re going to lose the ability to require mitigation and analyze those impacts really adequately in advance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s not true that we lose the ability. I’m sorry, but that’s a mischaracterization of the measure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s not true that we lose the ability. I’m sorry, but that’s a mischaracterization of the measure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, but by dramatically reducing the scope of the impacts, by reducing the alternatives, and by putting a really dramatically increased shot clock, you’re limiting the ability of the public to understand what the impacts are and to challenge them because they’re not going to have the time and the information to be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, but by dramatically reducing the scope of the impacts, by reducing the alternatives, and by putting a really dramatically increased shot clock, you’re limiting the ability of the public to understand what the impacts are and to challenge them because they’re not going to have the time and the information to be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if they do want to challenge them in court, the bar to challenging them in the court has now been raised dramatically by Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if they do want to challenge them in court, the bar to challenging them in the court has now been raised dramatically by Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m going to interrupt this one because we’re going to go to a caller. I want to remind us all this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans, I’m in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m going to interrupt this one because we’re going to go to a caller. I want to remind us all this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans, I’m in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are talking about Proposition 45, which you can tell is contentious. It’s a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law. We are joined with Ethan Elkind, Jason Elliott, Jordan Grimes, and we want to hear from you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We are talking about Proposition 45, which you can tell is contentious. It’s a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law. We are joined with Ethan Elkind, Jason Elliott, Jordan Grimes, and we want to hear from you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are there — were you in California when CEQA got started in the ’60s and ’70s? What do you make of the way it’s evolved over the decades? Email us your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on all the online things. You can call us at 1-866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Are there — were you in California when CEQA got started in the ’60s and ’70s? What do you make of the way it’s evolved over the decades? Email us your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on all the online things. You can call us at 1-866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wanna go now to a caller, Douglas in San Leandro. Thank you so much for joining us, Douglas. What’s your question?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wanna go now to a caller, Douglas in San Leandro. Thank you so much for joining us, Douglas. What’s your question?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Douglas:\u003c/strong> Uh… Good morning. It may be, uh… more of a comment. I’d like to bring data centers back to the conversation, with the data centers, which are huge energy and water demand for exactly the kind of thing that CEQA was intended to address.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Douglas:\u003c/strong> Uh… Good morning. It may be, uh… more of a comment. I’d like to bring data centers back to the conversation, with the data centers, which are huge energy and water demand for exactly the kind of thing that CEQA was intended to address.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh… And yet, uh… you know, what’s happening at 70% or more the public has indicated they’re really not in favor, is that the independent developers are rushing, rushing, rushing to get stuff done.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh… And yet, uh… you know, what’s happening at 70% or more the public has indicated they’re really not in favor, is that the independent developers are rushing, rushing, rushing to get stuff done.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, the idea that, well, we can just go to the city council and get them to defeat it, or we can look at our zoning codes and say, well, it’s not zoned for data centers — it’s not true.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, the idea that, well, we can just go to the city council and get them to defeat it, or we can look at our zoning codes and say, well, it’s not zoned for data centers — it’s not true.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What just happened in the city of Hayward next door to me is, right, the Planning Commission approved a humongous data center, more than 300,000 square feet. It never went to the City Council. The people of Hayward never knew about it. It was approved as office space, and we’re faced with the same thing here in San Leandro, where our Planning Commission just approved a conditional use permit for a similarly sized place, and it looks like it’s primed to be a data center.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What just happened in the city of Hayward next door to me is, right, the Planning Commission approved a humongous data center, more than 300,000 square feet. It never went to the City Council. The people of Hayward never knew about it. It was approved as office space, and we’re faced with the same thing here in San Leandro, where our Planning Commission just approved a conditional use permit for a similarly sized place, and it looks like it’s primed to be a data center.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nowhere are there any codes about data centers. It would be good if there were because then it would flag us for it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nowhere are there any codes about data centers. It would be good if there were because then it would flag us for it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the problem about shortening the timeline is we don’t know what’s going on. And it’s these data center developers are, you know, they’re having our official sign non-disclosure agreements, so what the heck is happening in closed session? We don’t know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the problem about shortening the timeline is we don’t know what’s going on. And it’s these data center developers are, you know, they’re having our official sign non-disclosure agreements, so what the heck is happening in closed session? We don’t know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the time is actually really quite an important protection for us, the public.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the time is actually really quite an important protection for us, the public.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And given what Ethan Elkind said earlier in the hour is that he believes from his legal perspective that data centers could be included in this proposition, Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And given what Ethan Elkind said earlier in the hour is that he believes from his legal perspective that data centers could be included in this proposition, Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jordan Grimes from the Greenbelt Alliance, why do you consider data centers as potentially part of this legislation?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, I’ll say it’s not just me. It’s attorneys and legal scholars from UC Berkeley, from UC Davis. But essentially, the way the provision is drafted, right? “Essential broadband internet access project.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, I’ll say it’s not just me. It’s attorneys and legal scholars from UC Berkeley, from UC Davis. But essentially, the way the provision is drafted, right? “Essential broadband internet access project.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Um —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> What that language means and the broad applicability of that, we absolutely believe covers data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> What that language means and the broad applicability of that, we absolutely believe covers data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> There’s also a provision — why do you think that? Because it says broadband access, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> There’s also a provision — why do you think that? Because it says broadband access, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I think fundamentally that could absolutely — broadband access could, given the legal definition, be applied to data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I think fundamentally that could absolutely — broadband access could, given the legal definition, be applied to data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. There’s a co-location of a broadband center and a data center, and that would get —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. There’s a co-location of a broadband center and a data center, and that would get —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Potentially. There’s also the provision in the measure that allows for the provisions of the measure to apply to ancillary infrastructure. So if you’re locating a broadband internet access project in a facility that houses multiple tenants, there is that aspect, but there’s the aspect that you could apply this would be required to furnish those things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Potentially. There’s also the provision in the measure that allows for the provisions of the measure to apply to ancillary infrastructure. So if you’re locating a broadband internet access project in a facility that houses multiple tenants, there is that aspect, but there’s the aspect that you could apply this would be required to furnish those things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh… Merit matters. I think it is about time to hear — if you want to hear your response.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, data centers are not covered by Proposition 45, and I appreciate that the opponents of this measure, as you’ve heard, want to assert that they are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, data centers are not covered by Proposition 45, and I appreciate that the opponents of this measure, as you’ve heard, want to assert that they are.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have a former CPUC Public Utilities Commissioner, former FCC Commissioner, a bunch of lawyers who are not affiliated with the campaign who have published opinions that they don’t think data centers are covered, so we can go lawyer for lawyer, I suppose.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have a former CPUC Public Utilities Commissioner, former FCC Commissioner, a bunch of lawyers who are not affiliated with the campaign who have published opinions that they don’t think data centers are covered, so we can go lawyer for lawyer, I suppose.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, the data center coalition itself, the sort of industry arm, mouthpiece of the data center industry, has declined to support the measure because they say that data centers — this measure doesn’t help data centers. So I suppose that’s probably the greatest validation of all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, the data center coalition itself, the sort of industry arm, mouthpiece of the data center industry, has declined to support the measure because they say that data centers — this measure doesn’t help data centers. So I suppose that’s probably the greatest validation of all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But look, this question around data centers… I’ve been doing campaigns a long time. I get why the opponents are using data centers. I have seen polling too. We have our own polling. Data centers are profoundly unpopular. It’s why we didn’t include them in the measure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But look, this question around data centers… I’ve been doing campaigns a long time. I get why the opponents are using data centers. I have seen polling too. We have our own polling. Data centers are profoundly unpopular. It’s why we didn’t include them in the measure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right. The measure does have carve-outs, right? It says, okay, clean energy projects are included, but not nuclear. So why did it say, but not —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right. The measure does have carve-outs, right? It says, okay, clean energy projects are included, but not nuclear. So why did it say, but not —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Data centers. It’s a great question. Let’s take high-speed rail, for example.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Data centers. It’s a great question. Let’s take high-speed rail, for example.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but why does it say not data centers?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but why does it say not data centers?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I’m going to explain why using high-speed rail. So high-speed rail was excluded or carved out, as you said, because transportation projects otherwise are included. So had we not carved out high-speed rail or the Delta Tunnel, as was mentioned earlier, that would be covered under existing central project definitions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I’m going to explain why using high-speed rail. So high-speed rail was excluded or carved out, as you said, because transportation projects otherwise are included. So had we not carved out high-speed rail or the Delta Tunnel, as was mentioned earlier, that would be covered under existing central project definitions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Data centers just don’t factor into this because despite Jordan’s best attempts, a data center is not a broadband line. They’re just different things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Data centers just don’t factor into this because despite Jordan’s best attempts, a data center is not a broadband line. They’re just different things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you read the text of the measure, you will see that they are, just by plain reading, different things. Will someone somewhere try to make some argument? Sure, but the text of the measure is absolutely clear that data centers are just simply not covered, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you read the text of the measure, you will see that they are, just by plain reading, different things. Will someone somewhere try to make some argument? Sure, but the text of the measure is absolutely clear that data centers are just simply not covered, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The list of things that are not covered is quite literally infinite. I mean, you could just keep going and going and doing, but we excluded things that would have otherwise been covered.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The list of things that are not covered is quite literally infinite. I mean, you could just keep going and going and doing, but we excluded things that would have otherwise been covered.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, I just like — I think that there’s a key point here. Campaigns, you can basically say anything you want with a glossy mailer or like on a social media ad, right? Here’s where you can’t say anything. You can’t say anything you want in the official ballot argument that you actually have to submit to the Secretary of State.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, I just like — I think that there’s a key point here. Campaigns, you can basically say anything you want with a glossy mailer or like on a social media ad, right? Here’s where you can’t say anything. You can’t say anything you want in the official ballot argument that you actually have to submit to the Secretary of State.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s where there’s a legal bar for truthfulness and veracity, right? Because you can litigate those, right? Guess where data centers does not appear in the official ballot argument. The opponents of this measure know that it’s a specious argument, and so they didn’t put it in their official ballot arguments, and that’s kind of all you need to know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s where there’s a legal bar for truthfulness and veracity, right? Because you can litigate those, right? Guess where data centers does not appear in the official ballot argument. The opponents of this measure know that it’s a specious argument, and so they didn’t put it in their official ballot arguments, and that’s kind of all you need to know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They’re using it because it polls. Well, I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes, but let’s not use scare tactics. Let’s talk about what’s actually in the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They’re using it because it polls. Well, I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes, but let’s not use scare tactics. Let’s talk about what’s actually in the —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I do really want to push back on the idea that these are scare tactics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I do really want to push back on the idea that these are scare tactics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You have data center developers who are donating to this campaign. You have Prologis, who, by the way… Prologis builds solar. Prologis is building five data centers right now in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You have data center developers who are donating to this campaign. You have Prologis, who, by the way… Prologis builds solar. Prologis is building five data centers right now in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then the campaign finance rate, isn’t there something around $15 million that has been donated by a PAC that does have representatives from data centers?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then the campaign finance rate, isn’t there something around $15 million that has been donated by a PAC that does have representatives from data centers?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> For the pro side.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> For the pro side.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And again, the Prologis — the PUC expert that was cited, you know, is a board member of Prologis, right? You have them giving half a million dollars to the campaign.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And again, the Prologis — the PUC expert that was cited, you know, is a board member of Prologis, right? You have them giving half a million dollars to the campaign.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, I don’t think they would be doing that, quite frankly, if they, you know, weren’t getting something pretty significant.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, I don’t think they would be doing that, quite frankly, if they, you know, weren’t getting something pretty significant.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> The no side has received $16 million in contributions from one billionaire. Okay, so, like, if we’re gonna have a discussion about funding, I’ll tell you where our money comes from and our support. The infill builders have supported our measure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> The no side has received $16 million in contributions from one billionaire. Okay, so, like, if we’re gonna have a discussion about funding, I’ll tell you where our money comes from and our support. The infill builders have supported our measure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m so sorry, we are gonna have to leave it there. There is so much to talk about. The time goes very quickly. Let’s do another hour.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m so sorry, we are gonna have to leave it there. There is so much to talk about. The time goes very quickly. Let’s do another hour.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans. I’m in for Mina Kim. We’ve been talking about Prop 45. We’ve been joined by Ethan Elkind, the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment; Jason Elliott of Versus Solutions; Jordan Grimes from the Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans. I’m in for Mina Kim. We’ve been talking about Prop 45. We’ve been joined by Ethan Elkind, the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment; Jason Elliott of Versus Solutions; Jordan Grimes from the Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thank you so much for joining us. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Thank you so much for joining us. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, October 7, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA), which requires most proposed public and private development projects to go through a thorough environmental impact review process, has long been blamed for slowing or stopping the development of new construction in the state. This November, Californians will vote on Proposition 45, which attempts to streamline CEQA review for certain “essential” projects. We’ll look at how changes could impact housing, data centers and more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind,\u003c/strong> director of the Climate Program at the Center for Law, Energy and the Environment, UC Berkeley School of Law; podcast host, Climate Break\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott,\u003c/strong> president, Versus Solutions; former deputy chief of staff to Governor Gavin Newsom, helped craft Prop 45\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes,\u003c/strong> legislative director, Greenbelt Alliance\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. When then-Governor Ronald Reagan signed the California Environmental Quality Act in 1970, it was meant to keep bulldozers from tearing up sensitive ecosystems. Fifty-six years later, CEQA is one of the most fiercely debated laws in the state. Its champions say it gives marginalized communities a means to stop harmful development. Critics say it’s been weaponized to block housing and drive up costs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, politicians wouldn’t go near CEQA reform, but as California’s housing crisis has deepened and clean energy projects must roll out at a faster pace, the calculation has shifted. Legislation passed last year made huge changes to the law, and this year, potentially more could come in the form of Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re going to hear from the people who’ve brought this initiative and those who oppose it, and we’ll talk about how unexpected players — data centers — have entered the conversation. But first, we’re joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. Welcome, Ethan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Laura. Good to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for joining us, Ethan. I’ve spoken to you a lot. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. Today we are talking about CEQA, which is, of course, the California Environmental Quality Act. Tell us, what is actually in this? What does it mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes. Well, as you mentioned, it was signed by Ronald Reagan, and it was originally just proposed to apply to major public infrastructure projects. And the point of the law was to require decision-makers, in advance of deciding on a big project, to figure out what are the likely environmental impacts of that project. And if there are significant negative environmental impacts, then decision-makers would have to mitigate those impacts if it’s feasible to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, if it is not feasible, the project is just going to have a lot of impacts and there’s nothing you can really do, then the project could proceed. But basically, it was a way to inform decision-makers and inform the public about the project’s scope of impacts, and also potential alternatives to the project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, the courts have dramatically expanded it. And there was a big decision in 1972 that basically said now all projects that require some sort of public approval, which is basically all projects, now have to go through the CEQA process. So it has been greatly expanded by the courts based on what Ronald Reagan thought he was signing — I’m assuming what he thought he was signing in 1970.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So it started out as something that’s like, this is about, you know, dams. And then now it’s like, this is about your neighbor’s house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yes, although many projects are exempt or face very streamlined review. Now, the biggest projects have to undergo what’s called an environmental impact report. And these can be like multiple phone-book-sized documents that look at all types of impacts. But that’s really just a very small percentage of projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then once those environmental impact reports come out, and really almost all steps in the process of CEQA, there’s opportunities for the public to sue if they feel like decision-makers have done an inadequate job in analyzing those impacts. And that’s really where a lot of the controversy around CEQA has come into play, that it provides members of the public with opportunities to have pretty extreme leverage in some cases over particularly large projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so talk me through that. CEQA has been criticized for stunting development. So take us through the process of what a developer actually must do to comply with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, like I say, it really depends on how big the project is. Many projects are completely exempt. If a project just has a very narrow set of likely impacts, then often it’s very easy to just come up with some simple mitigation measures, and then the developer can move forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But for big projects that have a lot of impacts — think of, like, a big industrial project, maybe a large subdivision out on green space, farmland, maybe transmission lines, logging projects, et cetera. Those kinds of projects have multiple types of impacts. They’ll impact the air quality, they’ll impact endangered species habitat, they will impact noise, visual aesthetics, archaeological resources, historical resources. All of these types of impacts have to be analyzed for these large projects and mitigated where feasible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And at that point, the public, if there’s maybe an economic competitor, if they’re neighbors, uh… There’s environmental groups — they have the ability to sue if those impacts are not analyzed properly and the mitigation measures aren’t adequate, uh… And so that’s really where the leverage comes into play, and it’s often at the very end of the process when a developer’s already sort of lined up a lot of their financing, figured out where legally they’re allowed to proceed under the land-use laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so for developers, for industry, they hate this law because it injects a huge amount of uncertainty really right at the end of the process. And by delaying projects, that costs money. I mean, time is money for developers. And while the law is not meant to stop any projects, it can effectively do so if there’s litigation that draws out the timelines by many years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. And then, so how long does CEQA review actually take in some of those instances? On average, maybe, and then in the worst-case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I haven’t really looked at the data on this. I mean, anecdotally, what you hear is that if it does go to an environmental impact report and is litigated, it can take a couple of years sometimes. I mean, in some cases, there have been some high-profile cases that have lasted decades. Those are very controversial, very large projects. And usually, there’s other factors involved. But I would guess that’s probably a year or two to resolve.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then CEQA — you know, we see CEQA come up again for folks who are just tuning in, the California Environmental Quality Act. So Ethan Elkind, people are often critical of CEQA saying, like, look at what happened at Berkeley with student housing. Can you sort of spell out what was that example for us, and what is — how common is that kind of thing to happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the issue that there are these high-profile lawsuits that just look kind of ridiculous on their face, and then people throw up their hands and say CEQA is being abused and it really should go away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in this particular case, you had student housing proposed at People’s Park in Berkeley, and the courts ruled that essentially students were an environmental impact. I mean, I’m sort of saying this a little superficially here, but the result of it was to hold up a really badly needed student housing project that the university wanted to move forward on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the legislature immediately stepped in in response to the negative publicity, and they amended the law in an emergency statute so that it would go into effect right away instead of in the next year to overrule what the court had decided.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in reality, there are less than 200 lawsuits a year. This has been very well tracked by multiple sources. So litigation is actually quite infrequent. But when it does happen, it makes a lot of headlines. And so you get a sort of anecdotally driven debate on CEQA. We’re not really looking at the actual numbers, which are quite rare.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although I will say that the threat of lawsuits is very — has a really chilling effect. It’s a big deterrent for a lot of developers. A lot of developers I spoke to, if they think there’s any risk of a CEQA lawsuit for a project, they won’t move forward. They’ll choose a different area or they’ll design the project differently. So even though litigation is rare, I do acknowledge that it has a chilling effect on a lot of developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So now let’s talk about Prop 45. Californians are going to see that on our ballots this year. If you’ve already received yours in the mail, it’s right there. What is Prop 45 proposing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, Prop 45 would dramatically scale back the scope and timeline of environmental review for what its backers have called essential projects. And these are high-impact, often very polluting types of projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So housing, which would mean all types of subdivisions, large-scale subdivisions over open space that generate a lot of traffic and can eat up a lot of endangered species habitat. Renewable energy projects. All types of transportation projects, with the exception of high-speed rail, so freeways, freeway widening. Uh… Dams and irrigation projects, logging projects. Broadband infrastructure projects, which some have interpreted to potentially cover data centers as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a wide swath of projects. These are backed by some of the big industry groups in the state. This proposition is backed by some big industry groups in the state. And it would essentially allow the developer to define the scope of the impact. So it would be a greatly narrowed set of impacts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There would be a dramatically reduced shot clock on deeming the CEQA review complete, so just 90 days, with some exceptions. And it will be really hard for the public to be able to challenge any of these CEQA decisions. It raises the bar for any sort of judicial attacks on what decision-makers have done on CEQA. It’s hard and will make it hard for the legislature to amend this proposition. It would require a two-thirds majority of the legislature to amend itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Basically, for some of the biggest projects in the state, it would dramatically scale back the type of review, the shot clock, and the ability of the public to challenge any decision-making under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, and then I want to talk about data centers because that has really come into this conversation in the last few months, and we are already getting lots of comments on that. So, okay, talk about why people are concerned that data centers might be part of this proposition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, the issue is that they’re not explicitly excluded. This project — this proposition — does explicitly exclude high-speed rail, as I mentioned. It also excludes a Delta conveyance tunnel, but it did not exclude data centers, and the way that they’ve written what an essential project is for broadband infrastructure could arguably include data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t think it’s an open-and-shut case, but I think you’re gonna see developers of all types of projects try to argue that their projects are essential. And we don’t know how courts would decide on this. They’re supposed to be giving a lot of deference to industry under this proposition. And so I don’t think we have any assurance that data centers wouldn’t qualify for the benefits that Prop 45 would offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Interesting, because a lot of this debate about data centers is looking into the future and saying, well, maybe a lawsuit could happen. And from your position, Ethan Elkind, at UC Berkeley as a lawyer, it potentially could.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s the whole issue with this. It’s going to create a lot of judicial uncertainty because there’s a lot of vagueness in how essential projects are defined. You’re going to want to see every single project developer argue that their project is essential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because of the way this proposition is written, we don’t know how courts are going to come out on this. So it does inject a lot of uncertainty. Like I said, they knew they could have excluded data centers. When they wrote this proposition, data centers were unpopular at the time. There’s a reason they excluded high-speed rail and Delta conveyance and some other things. They chose not to exclude data centers. So that, I think, is very telling on its face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> All right, well, briefly, when CEQA is at its best, what does it do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it allows the public to have some information about what a project is going to do to the environment, to their community. It gives the public an opportunity to weigh in, and it gives decision-makers an opportunity to understand what they’re approving.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And more importantly than all of this is that when there are impacts, they’re required to be mitigated, again, when feasible. And so it not only gives the public and decision-makers information, it makes sure that we try to lessen the environmental impacts of big projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All right, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, known as CEQA. And we are joined by Ethan Elkind, Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. What are your questions about Prop 45 and the California Environmental Quality Act? Give us a call. Or email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. All those places, we’re at KQED Forum. Or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law, which is called CEQA. That just rolls off the tongue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind. He’s the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment. And we are now welcoming in two additional people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have Jason Elliott. He is the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. He helped craft Prop 45. And we also have Jordan Grimes. He’s the legislative director with the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. He’s part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have heard Ethan. He shared his interpretations of CEQA and Prop 45. Jason, I saw that you were shaking your head a bit on some of that stuff. Give us what that shaking of a head was about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> First of all, thanks for hosting this \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> today. I think that everyone wants to talk for an hour about the intricacies of environmental review law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> So stick with us, folks. That and Taylor Swift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I can get Taylor Swift in here somehow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I appreciate the professor’s blessings upon Ethan for explaining CEQA, which is one of the most complicated laws in California. I do take a little bit of exception to some of the characterization of Prop 45, because I’ve heard some of those talking points, and they’re the talking points of our opponents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But let’s talk about what is happening here. Look, California has decided what it wants. It wants cleaner air. It wants clean water. It wants affordable and clean energy. It wants housing you can afford.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Frankly, over the years, voters have voted on and the legislature has passed a number of bills to move us towards those goals. We funded it, we’ve passed bonds, we’ve done spending programs, but what we haven’t done is we haven’t built those things. We haven’t provided housing you could afford. We haven’t provided abundant clean energy at the level we need.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Prop 45 is on the ballot because a state that can’t build what it promises isn’t protecting the environment. It’s not creating cleaner water. It’s protecting the status quo. And that’s really what Prop 45 was about. It’s about shaking up that status quo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have the toughest environmental rules in America, in California. I worked in government for 18 years. I helped craft a number of those environmental rules. I’m very proud of those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Proposition 45 leaves every single environmental protection that’s in law today — leaves it intact. That’s true for laws that protect against paving over prime agricultural land. It’s true about laws that protect against paving over wetlands. It’s true about laws that protect against clear-cutting in our forests. All of those laws continue to exist untouched by Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does do is it ends the acceptance of endless delay as the status quo. As I said, I’ve worked in California politics and state and local government for 17, 18 years before I left and founded my firm. No one ever once said to me, California builds things way too fast. That’s never been the problem, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our inability to execute against our own environmental and housing goals erodes our credibility to lead on environmentalism and inclusion. Prop 45 speeds up schools. It speeds up electricity projects and water without sacrificing any environmental review.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just want to make one sort of clarification. This is less an argument about Prop 45 and more just a thing that I think would maybe be helpful for the listeners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>CEQA, as Ethan described it, he described what CEQA is, I think, very well. CEQA is environmental review. What CEQA is not is land-use decision-making or environmental regulation setting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in California, the state government and local governments decide where they wanna put housing, and then they zone for it. They decide how much new electricity infrastructure and where they want schools, and they zone for those things. The state has planning processes around providing clean water to people. They decide how to deploy money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All of those processes, all of the land-use processes and the law-setting processes, are different than CEQA. Those happen through public process with public comment, publicly noticed meetings, and so forth, and years of council hearings. That’s a totally different thing than CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>CEQA is the environmental review that occurs after a community has decided, we think this is where housing should go. We wanna get water infrastructure, we wanna get a new hospital built here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Once the community has decided we’re gonna zone this parcel of land over here for a hospital, developers do their thing or public agencies do their thing and bring a project forward. And then CEQA is the safety review at the end of that planning process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it’s really important for people to understand that Proposition 45 doesn’t touch, or purport to touch in any way, the land-use planning powers that state and local governments have. They — every data center was mentioned in the intro. Proposition 45 does not cover data centers, period. We can have a longer conversation about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ll talk about that in a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> But just to make the point, and I won’t fight that fight right now because I’m sure it’ll come up. If a community doesn’t want a data center in their city, just don’t zone for one, just don’t approve one. And then CEQA is irrelevant because the underlying land use won’t allow for that data center.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a key point to make, is that we’re gonna keep differentiating because opponents of this measure obscure that line to try to be hyperbolic. I think it’s important to pull those things apart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Land-use authority, what goes in your community, remains the power of your mayor, your city council, your board of supervisors. Prop 45 doesn’t impact that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing from Jason Elliott. He’s the president of policy consulting firm Versus Solutions. We also have Jordan Grimes here, the legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan, what we’ve just heard is largely an argument around streamlining CEQA. It is not about the decision around land use, as Jason’s telling us. What about Prop 45 concerns you? You’re part of the Know on Prop 45 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you so much for having me back. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, there are many, I would say, problematic aspects with the measure. It’s hard to know where to start with, I think, the things that are most concerning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, to step back, as we are discussing both with Jason and with Ethan, the Environmental Quality Act is fundamentally this law that provides protection to communities. It’s not about delay, although certainly that has been a tactic that bad actors have used. But fundamentally, it is about review. It is about looking at and analyzing whether or not there’s potential for environmental harm and then requiring mitigation of that harm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it is the first line of defense for many communities. And ultimately, what Prop 45 does is strip away many of the protections inherent in that law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The timelines, I think, are some of the most reasonable pieces of the initiative, although, again, it doesn’t differentiate between size of projects. It doesn’t differentiate, I think, between geography, where a project is, if it’s in a greenfield, if you’re paving over open space, or if you are in a city, for example. So I think that is inherently problematic in the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Will Jordan tell us what those timelines are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the explicit timelines in the initiative are, generally speaking, 365 days for a full environmental impact report. Okay. You know, there are other timelines dependent on the type of environmental review, some jargony acronyms that we won’t get into too much, as we sort of discussed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Basically —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jargon for this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s basically putting a time limit on the environmental review and then also curtailing lawsuits around it, right? But it’s not just letting them go on for an indefinite period of time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And we’ve talked about that, but it’s actually quite a bit more than that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> What are the other concerns you have with it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Quite a few. I think the most concerning one for me is a new private right of action for developers to be able to sue municipalities if they deny a project or if they require sort of different mitigations that the developer views as unlawful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s something that is a huge change to CEQA, that is to the Environmental Quality Act, that isn’t there right now. There’s also a provision that basically says if there is a conflict between other environmental laws, that the initiative provisions prevail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are provisions that severely limit what a court can consider and that severely limits what a court can consider even after — even if environmental harm has been found. The court is very limited in its remedies under the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there are, I think, a litany of different things with this measure that go far beyond the timelines, many of which I think would be reasonable for certain projects. If we are talking about an apartment building in San Francisco, for example, the timelines that the initiative have in place might even be too long. It might not even make sense to do a year for an apartment project in Hayes Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Um, but if you’re talking about, uh, a new, you know, exurban development in the wildland-urban interface in a high-fire area, um, one of your, uh, I would say probably wouldn’t be enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to go to a caller now. We have Jim in Richmond. Jim, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thanks for calling in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you, and thank you for holding the show. As somebody who has read CEQA documents here in the Bay Area on really, frankly, bad projects, I want to tell you that as a citizen, we will — and even the city will — approach a developer to try to cause less damage to habitat or traffic, and without CEQA, or without the ability to challenge it, this really feels like one of those TV shows where you’re running across a lake and you’re competing against people, you know, jumping across these rubber balls or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s so many obstacles. It just seems impossible at this point. It really feels undemocratic. And I’d like you to address the cost of this as reported in the state pamphlet. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Jason, can you address this? Does it take away someone’s ability to challenge?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> And thanks for the call, Jim. I appreciate your advocacy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>No, it doesn’t take away someone’s ability to challenge it. Let me draw an analogy. I mean, I could go through the provision measure by measure, but this show isn’t long enough. So let me draw an analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you think about CEQA and the environmental impact report, so CEQA requires big projects to do the environmental impact report, which is what Ethan had laid out at the top of the hour. Think about the environmental impact report like the SAT test that we probably all endured when we were high schoolers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The question — Prop 45 doesn’t make the questions on the SAT easier. It doesn’t allow you to skip the SAT and go straight to college. Proposition 45 doesn’t limit any of those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 45 does is say, once you’ve done the SAT, the grader — the state, the city — has a timeline in which they have to grade the SAT and give you your score back, so you can go ahead and apply to college in a timely fashion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a timeline, right? It also says that while the grader’s grading your SAT test, the grader can’t say, well, you know, we don’t think that that’s how calculus works anymore. We’re gonna just, like, change one of the rules about log functions. And so you kind of have — you have to start over on the SAT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s how CEQA works today. The way CEQA works is you can finish your environmental impact report with mitigations to make sure that you’re having that conversation with community and local government, get rid of the worst parts of a project that are the most harmful to communities, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All of that stays intact. All of the mitigation processes, all of that public feedback all stays intact. But once you’re done with that EIR, with that SAT test, it gets graded in a timely fashion, so you can build your project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In our case, we estimate that it will cut the time for projects with EIRs in half, from about 3.1 years to about one and a half years. So it’s half the time, but all the protections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s the key point: it doesn’t strip away any protections. It doesn’t eliminate CEQA. So what I heard in Jim’s question was, Prop 45 would eliminate the public’s ability to raise these concerns. It won’t eliminate it. That’s a misconception, so I want to address that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it does say that let’s get this stuff done in a timely fashion, so that we can get good projects approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And last point I’ll make on this, Proposition 45 leaves intact every local government’s ability to reject an EIR and reject the project. There are no automatic approvals anywhere in Proposition 45. So if a developer brings forward a truly bad environmental project, the city council could just go ahead and reject it and reject the EIR and/or reject the underlying project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Jordan, how does this sound for you when we’re thinking about what Jim is saying, the ability to challenge a project? Do you feel like it would be harder when Prop 45, if it passes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. A hundred percent. You’re significantly limiting in terms of what the public is allowed to comment on, right? There are provisions that severely limit public comment. You are limiting the timelines in which the public comments are made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Do it for —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> It’s a time limitation. It’s not a qualitative limitation, so let’s make sure we’re accurate about what the measure does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right, but it does put a date —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Like the amount of days, okay?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yes, it’s a time limit, not a subjective limit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> You are limited in terms of vesting. If environmental conditions change on the ground, you are locked into a certain vesting schedule. So basically, things would go — everything would shift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for example, right now, if an EIR was being conducted and conditions changed —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s the environmental impact report.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yes. Sorry about the jargon. If an environmental impact report was being conducted and conditions on the ground shifted in terms of habitat, in terms of various other things, right now, as the process works, those things can be considered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The way the initiative would change the Environmental Quality Act would mean that you could not consider those. The conditions on the ground at the time of the project application would be locked in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Like, read the very start.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And then the last thing I’ll just say is, yes, a city council or local jurisdiction could deny a project, with the potential that a developer could sue. And so there’s this chilling effect now under this new private right of action, right, where a municipality would have to weigh, do we want to deny this project? Do we want to risk getting sued by a project developer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, we’re not just talking about projects that are potentially environmentally beneficial, right? You know, new housing in places we want to see it, bike lanes, public transit. We’re talking about some really potentially harmful projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Schools, clinics, hospitals, parks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Clean energy, clean water facilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Sure, that’s the side that’s a —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’ve also seen the no side saying, well, what about freeway expansion? We’re talking, like, we’re talking —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Is that also included? Freeway expansions are absolutely included. We’re talking about CO2 pipelines. We are talking about exurban developments in high-fire areas. There’s a lot of different things that this project allows. Some of them are good. Some of them, I think, deserve that streamlining.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we are looking at is, on net, is this better than the status quo? And our calculation is absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, okay. We’re gonna go to — we’re going to go to a caller, and then there’s lots of time to talk about these different things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay. Lisa, we are going to go to you in San Francisco. Lisa, thank you for calling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Good morning. My head is spinning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> You’re not the only one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa:\u003c/strong> Yeah. This is a great debate, but I think for me, in this horrific time where, you know, these astroturf super PACs pop up named, you know, Neighborhoods for San Francisco or whatever. And it’s the real estate lobby or the apartment owners association or what have you, or developers, market-rate developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I want to know from both of your guests, the proponent and the opponent, I would like to know who the major sponsors pro and their money, and I would like to know who are the sponsors against? Because we know that organizations like the San Francisco — the Sierra Club has been captured by real estate forces. I mean, everything is through the looking glass now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So who are the funders of this initiative?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. Streamline, I’m triggered. Yes, there’s millions of dollars behind this initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So actually, I know you were asking to go to Jason and Jordan. I’m gonna actually see if Ethan, if you could answer this one. Ethan Elkind with UC Berkeley, where’s the money coming from from both sides?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I don’t have encyclopedic knowledge, but I have looked at the backers. I mean, you have the Building Industry Association as a major backer of this. They’re the big sprawl developers in the state. You have the Chamber of Commerce supporting this initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You basically have a lot of industry groups that are supporting this. On the con side, you’ve got environmental groups, and then you’ve got labor unions that often use CEQA as leverage to try to get project labor agreements, uh… for their union members, uh… And then, you know, it’s a grab bag of other folks, but I’m sure Jordan and Jason could speak in more detail. But that’s the general gist on the yes and the no side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> We’re going to come back to that because we’re about to take a break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We’re talking about Proposition 45, a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’re joined by Ethan Elkind of UC Berkeley, Jason Elliott, president of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions, and Jordan Grimes, legislative director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we want to hear from you. How are you planning to vote on Prop 45 and why? Email your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum, or give us a call now at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans in for Mina Kim. We are talking about Proposition 45. It’s a ballot measure that is proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law called CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by Ethan Elkind, the Director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy and the Environment; Jason Elliott, President of the policy consulting firm Versus Solutions; and Jordan Grimes, Legislative Director with environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to go to a question that comes from listener Jeff. Jeff writes, “To what extent do the guests believe the passage of Prop 45 will meaningfully change the speed of development, and in what sectors? Is that clean energy, roads, housing?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jason, let’s go to you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, we do believe that it will speed up development, and that’s the purpose for crafting this measure. And speeding up development, let me say why that’s important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speed on its own is not necessarily a good thing. But when you have housing and clean energy and clean water projects, hospital projects, school projects that are delivered faster, that creates cost savings for local governments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Of the non-housing projects that this measure covers, 76% of them that we expect would be covered by EIRs are projects that are brought forward by your local government, by your city, by your county. So they’re looking to fix a bridge, they’re looking to improve a public restroom facility, they’re looking to build a new school campus, high school campus, whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These — the overwhelming majority of projects we believe, not housing, we can talk about housing, is a little different because governments don’t build housing. But of the non-housing projects, the overwhelming majority are public projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The longer that those delay, the more the cost goes up. And it’s not some greedy developer hiding in a back room that bears that cost. It’s you, the taxpayer. So this really is around taxpayer protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, because the housing part of this measure and the non-housing part of the measure are similar, but they operate, they function in different ways in terms of speeding things up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of housing, the average — we estimate that the average delay from CEQA alone increases the cost when an EIR has to be performed, increases the cost by $75,000 per new home that’s built by the private sector. So reducing time does reduce cost, which makes houses more affordable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So this really is all around reducing the cost of living by reducing how expensive it is to build stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> California. And this is one of the reasons why it seems like the Cal Chamber wanted to bring this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And so, can you actually give us a number, a year number, like right now it takes an average of this many years to build housing and after this it would, we believe —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll give you a number that I can stand behind, which is how long CEQA delays projects, because how long it takes to build housing can depend on so many factors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in terms of housing, housing projects that have to perform this environmental impact report that we’ve been discussing take on average 3.1 years. Non-housing projects that also have to perform an EIR take on an average of 3.0 years, so about three years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We anticipate that our measure would, because of the timelines that Jordan mentioned, conclude in 17 months. So you’re talking about roughly half the time. You’re cutting that roughly in half without diminishing any of the underlying environmental protections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s just a key point that keeps getting lost here. The underlying legal environmental protections all remain in place under Proposition 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Grimes from the environmental nonprofit Greenbelt Alliance. What is your take on how much this, if we pass Prop 45, would speed up development? And then I wanna ask you about cost as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. I think the concern, the biggest concern to us, is that it will tremendously speed up projects that are going to harm the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I actually don’t think it will do very much at all for projects that are environmentally beneficial, for the projects that I think people care most about. The California legislature last year granted a clean, complete statutory exemption to infill housing projects. It was a watershed moment for the state in acknowledging that environmental review can be used. For infill, the legislature remedied it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if you want to build an apartment in Beverly Hills or Palo Alto, you no longer have to go through that environmental review, which will be a huge boon to solving our housing crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Likewise, the legislature has provided statutory exemptions for bike lanes, for bus projects, for public transit, for clean energy. And so, realistically, I think the types of projects that Californians are really demanding — the clean energy, the housing projects that we need — we have already exempted those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I do think it will speed up projects, but they’re the projects that we don’t want to see. It’s new subdivisions in high wildfire areas. It’s the CO2 pipelines. It’s potentially data centers, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about that, just that housing piece. So what you are saying is that because last year California passed what was called AB 130, it is now — housing developments are exempt in urban areas, right? From CEQA, from all this stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I have seen the no side say, listen, why do we need this if we’ve already gotten that? It’s still rolling out. And that you believe that housing, it would be easier to build housing in wildfire-prone areas. Like a place like Paradise that is, you know, in this gorgeous wooded area, but also very fire-prone, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Jordan, if you could — or excuse me, Jason, can you tell me what is your take on that? Is it gonna be easier to build housing in these places where we don’t necessarily wanna promote it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great. And thanks, Jordan, for mentioning Assembly Bill 130. I worked for years when I was inside state government to bring that policy forward, to do the politics and the policy, and thank God for Buffy Wicks and Scott Wiener. Amen. Yeah. And they brought that forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s a huge win. Really proud of the work on that and Governor Newsom for pushing it through the budget. But he pushed it through the budget. The legislature did that. They found their courage, and thank God for Scott Wiener and Buffy Wicks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, the courage of a couple of legislators is not a statewide housing policy. And in this state, we are millions of units short. I ran housing policy for the state for a number of years. We’re millions of years short, right? Yeah, we’re millions of units short.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have this much of a housing deficit in California, you have to build up, but you also have to build out, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s really important that we just acknowledge that reality, the uncomfortable reality that some of our environmental opponents — about 100 organizations who opposed AB 130 — we met in the hall, and I know that’s not you, but 100-plus environmental organizations that opposed Assembly Bill 130 last year, that streamlining we were just talking about, they called it, quote, “the worst anti-environmental law in recent history.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That exact same coalition is now opposing Proposition 45. And I’m not trying to put this on you, Jordan, we just met. You seem like you’re a pro-housing guy, and I appreciate your leadership on that. But let’s talk about who’s behind the opposition to this measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It is the same anti-housing environmental groups that for decades, decades, have been blocking the kinds of housing we need.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because here’s the thing about Proposition 45. I think it’s another important point to make. Jordan keeps mentioning, and some of the opponents of the measure talk about, well, it’s not just housing. It’s all these other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All those other things are what make housing complete neighborhoods. A housing unit is just a housing unit until you attach it to water, until you build a school nearby, so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I see housing — just last point I wanna make on this — you know I’ve been working on these issues for years and years, and the way that I see housing development, it’s like a complicated safe in, like, one of those safe-cracking movies where you gotta get every little pin lined up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you don’t have the water and the electricity, you know, one of the big problems we have in this state is interconnection. A new building gets built, but you can’t get power to it, so it just stays empty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You gotta get all these pins, and if one of these pins is just a hair off, you can’t unlock that new neighborhood, you can’t move families in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Proposition 45 absolutely does streamline a number of those other things that are necessary. People drive on highways, right? People need to turn on the lights and have clean energy, power their microwaves and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So yes, Proposition 45 is about building those complete neighborhoods because a housing unit is just a paper promise until we connect it to all that infrastructure. Then it becomes a home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I want to bring in Ethan Elkind. He’s from UC Berkeley, a legal expert.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ethan, from your legal standpoint, you have seen that AB 130 passed last year. It’s begun to be implemented. How much Prop 45 changes housing development compared to the reforms of the past?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, I think, as Jordan said, infill housing — the kinds of environmentally beneficial housing that we want to see — basically got a free pass under CEQA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the reality is — and Jason basically described this — there are so many barriers to all sorts of projects in the state that go well beyond where environmental review comes into the process, that, you know, by blaming CEQA for all the delays that we have, we’re taking our eye off the ball of all these other problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, Jason described how CEQA does not [involve] local land-use decision-making, but that’s exactly why we’re not really getting at the heart of the problem as to why there are so many delays for projects in the state. We have a lot of different local governments, special districts, utilities, all of which could create a lot of delays for projects that CEQA does not touch.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so your question around how housing is affected, because we’ve already carved out an exemption that really just went into effect for all infill housing projects: the beneficiaries of Prop 45, by narrowing the scope of environmental review, by narrowing the alternatives, by dramatically shortening the shot clock for any sort of challenges, by raising the bar to judicial challenges, the only beneficiaries of that are going to be these sort of large subdivision projects, because all other types of housing in the state is now essentially exempted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So those are the beneficiaries. It’s going to be a lot harder for the public to be able to hold to account decision-makers who are approving these large subdivisions. We’re going to lose the ability to require mitigation and analyze those impacts really adequately in advance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> That’s not true that we lose the ability. I’m sorry, but that’s a mischaracterization of the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ethan Elkind:\u003c/strong> Well, but by dramatically reducing the scope of the impacts, by reducing the alternatives, and by putting a really dramatically increased shot clock, you’re limiting the ability of the public to understand what the impacts are and to challenge them because they’re not going to have the time and the information to be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if they do want to challenge them in court, the bar to challenging them in the court has now been raised dramatically by Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m going to interrupt this one because we’re going to go to a caller. I want to remind us all this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans, I’m in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are talking about Proposition 45, which you can tell is contentious. It’s a ballot measure proposing changes to California’s landmark environmental protection law. We are joined with Ethan Elkind, Jason Elliott, Jordan Grimes, and we want to hear from you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are there — were you in California when CEQA got started in the ’60s and ’70s? What do you make of the way it’s evolved over the decades? Email us your comments and questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on all the online things. You can call us at 1-866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wanna go now to a caller, Douglas in San Leandro. Thank you so much for joining us, Douglas. What’s your question?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Douglas:\u003c/strong> Uh… Good morning. It may be, uh… more of a comment. I’d like to bring data centers back to the conversation, with the data centers, which are huge energy and water demand for exactly the kind of thing that CEQA was intended to address.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh… And yet, uh… you know, what’s happening at 70% or more the public has indicated they’re really not in favor, is that the independent developers are rushing, rushing, rushing to get stuff done.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, the idea that, well, we can just go to the city council and get them to defeat it, or we can look at our zoning codes and say, well, it’s not zoned for data centers — it’s not true.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What just happened in the city of Hayward next door to me is, right, the Planning Commission approved a humongous data center, more than 300,000 square feet. It never went to the City Council. The people of Hayward never knew about it. It was approved as office space, and we’re faced with the same thing here in San Leandro, where our Planning Commission just approved a conditional use permit for a similarly sized place, and it looks like it’s primed to be a data center.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nowhere are there any codes about data centers. It would be good if there were because then it would flag us for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the problem about shortening the timeline is we don’t know what’s going on. And it’s these data center developers are, you know, they’re having our official sign non-disclosure agreements, so what the heck is happening in closed session? We don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the time is actually really quite an important protection for us, the public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And given what Ethan Elkind said earlier in the hour is that he believes from his legal perspective that data centers could be included in this proposition, Prop 45.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Grimes from the Greenbelt Alliance, why do you consider data centers as potentially part of this legislation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, I’ll say it’s not just me. It’s attorneys and legal scholars from UC Berkeley, from UC Davis. But essentially, the way the provision is drafted, right? “Essential broadband internet access project.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Um —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> What that language means and the broad applicability of that, we absolutely believe covers data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> There’s also a provision — why do you think that? Because it says broadband access, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I think fundamentally that could absolutely — broadband access could, given the legal definition, be applied to data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay. There’s a co-location of a broadband center and a data center, and that would get —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Potentially. There’s also the provision in the measure that allows for the provisions of the measure to apply to ancillary infrastructure. So if you’re locating a broadband internet access project in a facility that houses multiple tenants, there is that aspect, but there’s the aspect that you could apply this would be required to furnish those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> That’s okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh… Merit matters. I think it is about time to hear — if you want to hear your response.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Yeah, data centers are not covered by Proposition 45, and I appreciate that the opponents of this measure, as you’ve heard, want to assert that they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have a former CPUC Public Utilities Commissioner, former FCC Commissioner, a bunch of lawyers who are not affiliated with the campaign who have published opinions that they don’t think data centers are covered, so we can go lawyer for lawyer, I suppose.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, the data center coalition itself, the sort of industry arm, mouthpiece of the data center industry, has declined to support the measure because they say that data centers — this measure doesn’t help data centers. So I suppose that’s probably the greatest validation of all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But look, this question around data centers… I’ve been doing campaigns a long time. I get why the opponents are using data centers. I have seen polling too. We have our own polling. Data centers are profoundly unpopular. It’s why we didn’t include them in the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Right. The measure does have carve-outs, right? It says, okay, clean energy projects are included, but not nuclear. So why did it say, but not —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Data centers. It’s a great question. Let’s take high-speed rail, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but why does it say not data centers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> I’m going to explain why using high-speed rail. So high-speed rail was excluded or carved out, as you said, because transportation projects otherwise are included. So had we not carved out high-speed rail or the Delta Tunnel, as was mentioned earlier, that would be covered under existing central project definitions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Data centers just don’t factor into this because despite Jordan’s best attempts, a data center is not a broadband line. They’re just different things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you read the text of the measure, you will see that they are, just by plain reading, different things. Will someone somewhere try to make some argument? Sure, but the text of the measure is absolutely clear that data centers are just simply not covered, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The list of things that are not covered is quite literally infinite. I mean, you could just keep going and going and doing, but we excluded things that would have otherwise been covered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I just like — I think that there’s a key point here. Campaigns, you can basically say anything you want with a glossy mailer or like on a social media ad, right? Here’s where you can’t say anything. You can’t say anything you want in the official ballot argument that you actually have to submit to the Secretary of State.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s where there’s a legal bar for truthfulness and veracity, right? Because you can litigate those, right? Guess where data centers does not appear in the official ballot argument. The opponents of this measure know that it’s a specious argument, and so they didn’t put it in their official ballot arguments, and that’s kind of all you need to know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re using it because it polls. Well, I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes, but let’s not use scare tactics. Let’s talk about what’s actually in the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> I do really want to push back on the idea that these are scare tactics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have data center developers who are donating to this campaign. You have Prologis, who, by the way… Prologis builds solar. Prologis is building five data centers right now in San Jose.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> And then the campaign finance rate, isn’t there something around $15 million that has been donated by a PAC that does have representatives from data centers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> For the pro side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Grimes:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And again, the Prologis — the PUC expert that was cited, you know, is a board member of Prologis, right? You have them giving half a million dollars to the campaign.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, I don’t think they would be doing that, quite frankly, if they, you know, weren’t getting something pretty significant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> The no side has received $16 million in contributions from one billionaire. Okay, so, like, if we’re gonna have a discussion about funding, I’ll tell you where our money comes from and our support. The infill builders have supported our measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> I’m so sorry, we are gonna have to leave it there. There is so much to talk about. The time goes very quickly. Let’s do another hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Laura Klivans. I’m in for Mina Kim. We’ve been talking about Prop 45. We’ve been joined by Ethan Elkind, the director of the Climate Program at UC Berkeley Center for Law, Energy, and the Environment; Jason Elliott of Versus Solutions; Jordan Grimes from the Greenbelt Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thank you so much for joining us. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jason Elliott:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, September 24, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From the White House ballroom to the Kennedy Center to a proposed triumphal arch along the Potomac, President Trump has taken a special interest in creating physical markers of his legacy. We’ll look at how he’s largely escaped oversight, including by designating these projects as central to national security. Why are monuments such a priority for Trump, and what does this tell us about the growing reach of executive power?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols,\u003c/strong> staff writer, The Atlantic, professor emeritus of national security affairs, U.S. Naval War College\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson\u003c/strong>, professor of art crime, CUNY, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues: The Rise and Fall of America’s Public Monuments\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Of all the things the president has on his plate — the war in Iran, high fuel and food prices, steep potential losses for his party in the midterms — what seems to animate Trump the most are his building projects. The latest announcement this week is that his proposed triumphal arch on D.C.’s Memorial Circle will now be a military complex, complete with snipers and drones for national security reasons. And for all the skepticism and unpopularity of the idea, it continues to move forward for now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This hour, we look at how Trump’s construction projects are changing the landscape and the reach of executive power and the role of monuments in shaping a collective narrative. Starting us off is Tom Nichols, whose latest piece for \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> is called “Trump’s Monumental Obsession.” Good to have you back, Tom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So first, talk about why the idea of militarizing the arch has drawn fresh skepticism and pushback from not only you, but retired generals, preservationists, others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Because it’s crazy. You’re talking about putting an arch in the middle of a busy traffic circle, and anybody who’s ever been to Washington has probably experienced that particular area between the cemetery and the Lincoln Memorial and downtown D.C. And the idea of filling it with weapons while cars sit in traffic around it every day. And airplanes, by the way, this is another problem, as airplanes fly over it because it’s right in the approach path for Reagan National Airport. It’s a stupid and dangerous idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I also don’t think that the president is serious about it. He’s saying this because he knows that national security arguments tend to prevail in court, as he did with the ballroom. When people sued to stop him from demolishing the East Wing and building the ballroom, some of his opponents won in court and there was a tussle back and forth. Then Trump said, no, this is a national security project. It’s to build a bunker and an operation center, and the ballroom is just a kind of a hat we’re putting on top of that national security stuff. The courts bought it. Supreme Court, all the way down, you know. Well, you know, the president gets his way on national security issues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did the courts buy it? What does recasting the building project as military infrastructure and therefore a national security asset, right, help Trump do with the courts and with Congress as well?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> The courts have always — I should say always since the end of World War II, since the Cold War, when national security became a thing, became a phrase. You know, before World War Two, very rare to actually see the phrase “national security” used anywhere. And during the Cold War, we created a national security state and we prioritized national security above a lot of things, including civil liberties. And we did it again after 9/11.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when presidents invoke national security, courts kind of wrap that under the president’s Article II powers. And they become very hesitant to interfere with that because they don’t want to interfere with what they think is the president’s legitimate sphere of competence and power on that issue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s become a thing where presidents, not just Donald Trump, but presidents in the past, have said, well, to get through a policy I really want to get to, matter of national security. And that’s kind of meant to snuff out debate about whether the thing involved is actually important or worth the money or even legal. So that’s why it happens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> This does also undermine Congress’s authority to constrain it at all in a substantive way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it always has. I mean, the national security argument has always been part of the shift, the migration in power from Congress to an imperial presidency. Presidents over the course of the Cold War and then during the war on terror, executive power has expanded vastly beyond what I think the founders envisioned in the Constitution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the president has become, you know, the vicar of national security, and it’s a very effective argument to make. And sometimes, you know — let’s be fair about this — sometimes it’s a legitimate argument. There are things that the executive branch has to do in the name of national security, like build bunkers under the White House.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when that gets applied to things like tariffs, for example, you know, Trump at one point claimed that tariffs were a matter of national security. Pretty soon everything becomes a matter of national security because presidents, and this president in particular, just like the fact that it sort of, you know, just kind of shuts down opposition and legal challenges to whatever it is he wants to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. I mean, Trump argued that the ban on CNN, MS NOW, and Politico from White House grounds was because they were a threat to our national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about President Trump’s militarized arch? You know, why do you think these construction projects are so important to the president? Do these things bother you? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or by calling 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those are on Discord, right? “Trump’s building projects are a frustrating waste of money and grotesque display of ego. But honestly, I prioritize his D.C. monuments pretty low compared to other damage he’s doing to the country and world. Everything built can be disassembled.” Do you think that? The types of things he’s building now could easily be disassembled?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I think some of them can be. I personally, as a former Washington resident — I should say a former suburban resident. I used to work on the Hill and spent my graduate years at Georgetown and all that. I think that these are atrocious and garish projects, and I would happily support any president who says the ballroom’s got to go and we’re going to rebuild the East Wing and not put up an armed platform in the middle of, in front of Arlington Cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has proven one thing, that if you can put these things up through sheer willpower, a president can take them down through sheer willpower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think your listener, I agree with your listener who said, hey, this isn’t the biggest problem in the world except for two things, I would say. One is that Donald Trump is establishing that presidents can just spend money at will simply by chanting “national security” over even trivial and dumb things, like putting up this kind of, you know, bit of militaristic bombast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I referred to the victory arch that he wants to put up as something that looks like it was found in the bottom desk drawer of, you know, Albert Speer’s desk. And it’s just ugly. But he can just build it because he’s — national security, and he snaps his fingers and people start digging.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So once you establish that, you’re setting a lot of bad precedents here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other is that I think symbolism matters. I think, I think, you know, the president, the White House in particular, is meant to be dignified and austere, but not bombastic and overwhelming. And I think it’s an affront to the culture of democracy to put up a Tsarist ballroom that would make a King Louis of France blush in the middle of the place that’s meant to be the people’s house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I, while it’s not the most important thing in the world, it’s more important than it may seem.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I know. And also I think in the context of all the other things that are happening in the country, as you point out in your piece and as I mentioned in the intro, I think it’s concerning to have that be the main focus of the president. Is there any chance at all that because he noted that it was at the military’s request, is there a chance at all, as someone who knows the military well, that he would have found people in the military to say, yes, this is something that could be meaningful for national security?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I would — this again, my personal view here is that I will file that under things that didn’t happen. He may well have turned to Pete Hegseth and said, Pete, maybe we should build a big arch. And he said, good idea, sir. And that was the source of saying the military has asked for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I cannot imagine that, you know, anybody in the uniformed military was sitting around and saying, hey, you know what would really improve that arch? Snipers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is it possible in this administration? Again, he may have turned to some hapless colonel and said, Colonel, you think that’s a good idea, right? And the guy’s going to say, oh, whatever you think, Mr. President.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I just don’t believe that people walked into his office and said, Mr. President, you got to build this armed platform right next to Reagan National. Uh… Because, you know, it’s a matter of national security. I, I just — it can — I could be wrong, but I just don’t believe that happened.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You noted costs as well. Do you know who is paying for these monuments and what kind of cost we are looking at, or maybe costs across things like the arch and the ballroom?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry. Are you insisting on transparency and how millions of dollars are being spent in Washington? That sounds like communism. I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s another part of this problem. I mean, the president changes stories every other day on — you saw this with the ballroom. Well, it’s only going to cost this much and we’re going to get donations and it’s not going to be a big deal. And then the costs balloon and then it turns out we are using government money. Don’t hurt! But again, only for national security, because there’s going to be a thing under it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the end, the president — this is a personalized cult of personality regime inside the White House, where the president says, I want a victory arch. And a bunch of people look at each other and say, well, yes, okay. And we’ll figure out who’s paying for it and how all that’s going to happen later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if we had a Congress that cared about oversight… You would know. But because this Congress currently is controlled by a Republican majority that is mostly terrified of Trump because nobody wants to end up, you know, primaried like John Cornyn or, you know, Cassidy or Tom Tillis or any of these people that are leaving, they simply kind of keep their head down and they’re just waiting for this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s been almost 10 years of some Republicans just waiting this to blow over, but obviously it’s not gonna blow over. And Trump’s gonna spend this money and nobody’s gonna really ask why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with \u003cem>Atlantic\u003c/em> staff writer Tom Nichols about Trump’s triumphal arch and his special interest in creating physical markers of his legacy and why neither Congress nor the courts right now have been able to end these projects, especially when the administration cites national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Mina Kim. Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s triumphal arch, the White House ballroom, and other building projects that have drawn the president’s attention and how these construction projects are extending the reach of executive power, even if on the face of them they don’t seem as much of an issue for the country as, say, things like the war in Iran and high fuel and food prices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about this with Tom Nichols. With you, our listeners, join the conversation by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What questions do you have about the president’s efforts to push building projects through D.C.? Why do you think he wants to do this? And do they bother you? Why or why not? How do you think these projects will inform how we remember President Trump?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me go to caller Susan in Marin. Hi, Susan. Go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan:\u003c/strong> I think, uh… I hold Congress as responsible for the ballroom as I hold Trump. Uh… They’re the part of our government that’s supposed to be able to spend money, and the fact that they’re allowing him to take money out of, uh… common bank is just, it just makes me furious. They’ve done nothing for an awful long time, and this is nothing that is going to cost us millions and millions and billions of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing how you feel about this, Susan. Let me go to Colin next in San Francisco. Colin, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Colin:\u003c/strong> Good morning. I’m not as concerned about the proposed, um, victory arch or Arc de Triomphe, whatever we want to call it, because it’s very unlikely that it will be completed within Trump’s lifetime. It’s likely going to be abandoned just as soon as he’s out of office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The original Arc de Triomphe took about 30 years from, uh, inception under Napoleon Bonaparte to completion in 1836. Um, it’s also my, you know, it could jinx this country too. You know, after the Arch of Triumph was built, the Germans were able to stage two victory parades in 1871 and 1940 under or by the arch.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing where you’re at and what you think in terms of jinxing. That’s an interesting point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to bring Erin Thompson into the conversation now, professor of art crime at City University, New York, and also the author of the book \u003cem>Smashing Statues: The Rise and Fall of America’s Public Monuments\u003c/em>. Erin, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So stepping back a bit, you know, help us understand the power of monuments as people sort of grapple with how significant this moment is with regards to Trump. How could they affect us generally, the public?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, monuments are really about capturing the future. They’re about shaping the memory of the past. So I think it will be very difficult to get rid of any monuments, really, but Trump’s monuments in particular, and they’re going to keep shaping what we value about America. So it…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that you say they have that type of power because they feel, you know, sort of very limiting in some ways of sending a message. Can you talk about how or where their power lies? I guess maybe even in their simplicity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Monuments don’t actually teach history. There’s not enough space for that. They just tell us who should you literally look up to, who is large, who should be honored and hold power.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Say there’s a certain power in the way we sort of get used to them, how they fade into the background. How so?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, their power is in their boringness. We accept them, we take them for granted. Something like 90% of the public monuments in the U.S. honor white men, for example. So that constant message about who deserves to hold power in the U.S., I think, has a continuing effect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Tom, you know, Trump was quoted as saying, out of the 59 top cities and capitals, Washington, D.C. is the only one in the world that does not have a triumphal arch. And you were noting earlier, you that sort of Americans have a certain dislike of those kinds of things, or generally does not do this in our capitals for, for good reason. What are those reasons?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, for one, we tend to celebrate the citizen soldier, the people among us who fought and died, which is why our war memorials, especially in the modern era, tend to be more muted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You do have some big monuments that came after the Civil War to the Union. There’s one in New York, there’s actually very few of them in Boston, but a lot of statues. But by and large, Americans view going to war as something they’ve been dragged into. One of my late colleagues used to call it the avenging angel syndrome that, well, you know, by God, we didn’t start this thing, but we’ll get in there and finish it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we kind of come home and realize that, you know, war takes a toll on a democracy. So we don’t build these Napoleonic arches. We don’t build these, you know, Germany, these these kind of Nazi, you know, winged angels or Soviet, you know, the big Soviet Mother of Russia with the sword and the shield and all that stuff. We were just not that kind of culture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when Trump says, you know, we’re the only country in the world that doesn’t have one of these things, that’s, I think, the right answer to that is that’s right. And that’s good. And that one of the things that’s good about America, that we don’t do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Trump is very much — you can see it in his taste, which is vulgar and deeply affected by the grandeur that he sees in other cities. And he thinks that this makes America and him somehow less of a player, less majestic on the world scene not to have one of these big arteries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I always think of what your caller, your most recent caller, said. You know, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris has been a mixed blessing. It was meant to honor the French victory in the Battle of Austerlitz in a war that eventually Napoleon lost and ended up exiled and dead for conducting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So maybe it’s not a good thing to put these things up. Maybe things like the Vietnam Memorial, the World War II Memorial, and others are much more thoughtful and much more in line with the American character.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think listener Eric would agree with you in terms of taste. Eric writes, “Trump uses emergency when there is none. He breaks the law faster than the law can apply remedies. Also, he has horrible taste in design.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erin, I understand you recently visited D.C. and tried to visit many of the locations that President Trump is trying to change or build. What did you notice about the aesthetic?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, first that they’re even worse in person. So the $5 million have recently been spent on re-gilding four statues on the Arlington Memorial Bridge between the Lincoln Memorial and Arlington Cemetery. And they now look like they should be unwrapped and have chocolate inside. They’re so shiny and ridiculous looking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was also a no-bid contract, his favorite form of using government money. But much more disturbing to me was the fact that so little was visible. There is a giant fence around the White House and Lafayette Park, which is a public space, preventing you from seeing where the East Wing used to be, where the construction is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I agree in a way that monuments are not the most important things, but I think they’re the gilded canary in the coal mine. And if he’s able to hide what he’s doing with these construction projects, what else is he not telling us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to caller Charlotte next in Menlo Park. Charlotte, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charlotte:\u003c/strong> Yes, hi. Thank you so much for the program. Uh… I’ve wanted to just chime in about it, actually, just that that’s what, uh… And she said just now about the White House. I have very strong feelings of love of the monuments of Washington, D.C., and, uh… I am wondering, can people actually still fit at the White House the way that they could before, or what it — what is the policy? Is it — has it changed? Are people banned from even visiting anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm, Erin?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Charlotte. I think it’s been greatly reduced. It is still, in theory, available, but Lafayette Park, for example, which is a popular pedestrian place to see the White House, is now closed more and more frequently. And the Trump administration has just proposed putting up a permanent fence to replace the janky-looking tarp construction they’ve got happening now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Erin, what do you think is the overall message of this? We did a show on aesthetics in the past when Trump was sort of adorning the Oval Office with gold and so on. So this combination of sort of a gilded and what I think you’re describing feels like a gilded fortress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And another reason that D.C. hasn’t had a triumphal arch is that those arches celebrate a single leader. That’s not democracy. It’s a little less aesthetically unified to have monuments celebrating a whole host of people, but that’s what we need to do in a democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What the redesign of D.C. is doing is suggesting to visitors for potentially generations to come that power should be and is concentrated in the hands of the few or even one person, and that wealth should be the requirement of power. Whereas that is something that since the very beginnings of official congressional, national, federal arts has been fought against.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think this on Discord is echoing some of your points. The listener writes, “This is a symptom of a weak and vulnerable form of government that can be so easily taken over by one person. One person has corrupted all three branches of government. The power and self-interest of those around him have allowed Trump to seemingly do whatever he wants without meaningful challenges or accountability. He doesn’t ask permission. His reign ends in two years. But what does this say about the future of democracy?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tom, do you want to weigh in on that too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think people should beware talking about the flaws of the system when what we’re really talking about are the flaws in the American people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James Madison warned us during the debate on ratifying the Constitution. He was asked, you know, will these checks and balances really work? Are these institutions that you’re asking us here in Virginia — it was during the debate in Virginia — are these, you know, institutions really going to protect us in the you’re promising?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Madison, I think with a certain amount of exasperation, said, none of these things work if we are not decent people. The way he put it, he said, “Is there no virtue among us? If not, then we are in a wretched situation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That, I think, is part of what’s happening. The problem is not the design of the system, it’s not the Constitution or the branches of government. It’s that you have tens of millions of people who think this is okay, and some of them even think it’s more than okay. They like it, and they vote for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a problem with our society, that there’s a kind of decadence on we that’s overtaken our society where millions of people just shrug and say, well, he’s going to build a ballroom. What are you going to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that in an earlier time — and when I say earlier, I don’t mean 100 years ago, I mean like 20 years ago, 15 years ago — any one of these things would have been the source of a huge outcry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has, by firehosing us with these crazy projects and ideas and wars and other things that he’s been doing, has just kind of worn people down into numbness to say, well, I guess we’re going to build this drone platform with a big winged victory statue on it. And what can we do about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s in part, again, because of the cowardice of his party, which now depends — the elected officials of his party depend on surviving primary challenges in which maybe 15 or 20% of the party votes. And that very small number of people has basically put a stranglehold on a party and on the legislature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, hopefully that can change if people get mad enough and vote. But I guess I would just caution everyone against saying, well, somehow the design of this system is flawed. This system was never meant to work if people did not have some kind of civic affection and involvement in it. And that, I think, is the source of our real problem here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Interestingly, you know, we had Sarah Longwell on not that long ago, and she seemed to think that this issue may actually be breaking through with some of his voters, just because the contrast is so stark, Tom, between Americans struggling, right, with economic pressures from the war, very much as a result of the war that he started, and these gilded statues and arches that he seems very fixated on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you see that as actually being a place where maybe there will be pushback by the very electorate that has voted him in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I think you’re seeing that happen. I mean, for Donald Trump to be hovering now around 30, 32% popularity is really quite remarkable considering that he came back into office. I won a discontinuous election and managed to ride back into office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sarah, I think Sarah’s right about this, and she of course is the one who has sat with hundreds of focus groups to hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think what breaks through is not necessarily the monuments as an issue per se. I don’t think anybody’s gonna get out there and vote and say, you know, I really don’t like this ballroom. But they’re standing there at the gas pump saying, you know, I’m paying four and a half bucks, or if you’re a farmer or trucker or something, you say, I’m payin’ you know six and a huff bucks for diesel, and this guy is running around like Goldfinger, you know, painting everything in gold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Who’s thinking about me, and why is he putting up gold statues and sticking gold appliques on everything when I can’t afford to keep filling my car to take my kids to school?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that has broken through. I think it’s been a really important part of the nosedive in his popularity. He really does come across as a callous, uncaring king who basically tells the people to eat cake and that expensive gas is a small price to pay for having a great president like him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Lorraine writes, “The expense of all these projects is deeply offensive in view that he tore healthcare away from millions of Americans through his big ugly bill.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erin, can you think of a historical analog as well of a leader fixated on building monuments in the face of much more pressing problems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, and I just want to say, too, that thousands of people came out last weekend to protest his threats to close the Kennedy Center. So he’s attacking what people love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And yeah, looking at Trump’s actions now made me think of the Colosseum. Right? In Rome, it’s named the Coliseum after the Colossus, a gigantic statue that stood beside it that was — he was one of the worst rulers of all history and was obsessed with trying to beautify Rome because he saw what was coming. He wanted to fix his reputation and it did not work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He fiddled while Rome burned, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Erin Thompson, Professor of Art Crime at City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and Tom Nichols, staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, about Trump’s focus on monuments and monuments, in many ways, to himself, the difficulties in curbing those actions by Congress and the courts, at least as they’re currently constituted, and what broader impact that has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can join the conversation, listeners, with your questions about his recent announcement of the militarized arch, which Tom Nichols wrote about, and also just how you feel about these construction projects. Do they matter to you? Do they bother you? Why or why not? What kinds of messages do you think they will send? And what would you like to see happen to them going forward, especially after the president’s presidency?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Lorraine also writes, “Trump thinks that by splashing gold everywhere projects an image of wealth and power. The truth is an excess of gold makes those things look tawdry and cheap. As for the victory arch, where’s the victory? I hope I’m wrong, but the bunker under the ballroom combined with the militarization of the art paints a picture of a man who’s preparing to dig in after the 2028 election, if things don’t go his way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s building projects, his monument, which he did say, in fact, that the triumphal arch early when he was announcing it was in honor of him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Trump’s Monumental Obsession” is the piece by Tom Nichols, our guest today, a staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, and Erin Thompson is author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em> and professor of art crime at City University in New York.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, you’re joining the conversation with your questions about President Trump’s building projects, why you think he’s doing them and whether or not they bother you and why. 866-733-6786, the number. Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram is where you can post your comments. You can also email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this listener on Discord writes, “What about this spending in the context of the total national debt? After all, DOGE’s purpose was to cut spending, right? How can the spending on these monuments be reconciled with that purpose?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erin, we talked with Tom earlier about whether or not we really have a good sense of how much these projects are costing. I mean, Trump once promised to finance the building of his own giant ballroom himself or with private donors as well. And I was struck by how you have noted that actually often the kinds of monuments we see across this country are not put up by state or federal governments, that they’re actually put up…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> By private donors? Yes, we think of them as public monuments, but they’re not public in that the public has any say into what they look like or where they go or whether they should come down. Public monuments are usually only put up by those with enough power to find a place for them and enough money to pay for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So what does that then mean with regard to, you know, who gets to deliver whatever message they’re trying to deliver, as you were saying earlier, a monument does?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> The history of monuments in the U.S. shows, at least I argue in my book, that they’re often meant to show the rest of us our place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for example, a lot of Confederate memorials went up not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, but in the 20th century and were often associated with interracial unionization efforts. So if people started to threaten to strike, a monument would be put up by, say, the mine owners or the factory owners to remind white workers, don’t cross the color line, to ally yourself with your fellow workers. You need to respect the work of your Confederate forefathers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think that the autocratic monuments we’re seeing today are also meant to remind us as voters, as citizens, you know, just sit tight. Let the elite make the decisions for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> After the murder of George Floyd, though, suddenly all over the country, you start seeing monuments being taken down or graffitied. Why do you think that happened?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s the power of monuments to make concrete intangible ideas about justice, equality, et cetera. So they were places to rally ourselves, to think about, to protest inequality and power. And they were in the news a lot, but only about 200 monuments left their pedestals after the murder of George Floyd, which is far, far less than 1% of the public monuments in the U.S., something like a tenth of a percent. And many of those were removed by official actions; only about 20 were taken down by protesters. So we still have a lot to think about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they’re very hard to bring down, aren’t they? Can you talk about that and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s the law. So in almost all former Confederate states, it’s simply impossible to remove an established public monument. They knew when they were especially putting those laws into place to protect Confederate monuments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And even in states where there’s not an explicit prohibition, there’s just simply no procedure to follow to ask questions about a monument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So part of what’s so infuriating about what the president is currently doing is that he’s ignoring all of these laws that future administrations might not be so willing to ignore, and thus it will become — it will be difficult to take down what he’s put up because we’ll be respecting laws that he is not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you tell the story of an Indigenous activist in Minnesota who was trying to get a monument down. Can you talk about that and what ultimately he had to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> So Mike Forcia, an Indigenous activist in St. Paul, Minnesota, had been trying for decades, his entire adult life, to question a monument of Christopher Columbus in front of the state capitol. He wanted to know, in this city, which is the largest urban population of Indigenous people in the U.S., why is a man who many blame with great reason for unleashing a genocide honored on the statehouse lawn?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But every time he filed a petition, it essentially ended up thrown away because there was no procedure to question that monument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So finally, he heard that others were planning to tear down the statue during the middle of the night in August of 2020. And he decided that he was going to go out in the middle of the day, invite people to witness him because he said the monument went up in front of crowds of people and it needed to come down in the same way. And so he took responsibility for tearing down that monument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, did he face jail time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> He was charged, and prosecutors agreed to divert his case to a special restorative justice process. So he, instead of going into a court, was put in front of talking circles, they called it, of people who were affected by the removal, but also people who are affected by this statue being there in the first place, and he was sentenced to community service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of my favorite parts of this case is that he only had a rope from Home Depot that he threw around the statue and tugged it down, but it turns out it came down so easily because no one had bolted it to the pedestal. It was just assumed no one would ever question the erection of Columbus on top of that pedestal, so it was very easy in the end to topple it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to Sasha in Berkeley next. Sasha, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Well, I look at this as Humpty Dumpty that we have to put back together again after Trump is gone. And I’m curious why what I’m going to suggest next couldn’t be done.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I would take down all the gold in the White House and anywhere else that’s been plastered and melt it down for money we could put into the Treasury. And in terms of the art, take it down and the ballroom — if there is no need for a huge room like that, currently called the ballroom, I would take at least half of it down if the other half is to be made into useful offices or replace, I forget what it was, the East or the West Wing that he tore down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, but the biggest problem is how do we put the government back together again? And I have no answers for that because clearly all of our departments have been stripped of staff, and what have they been replaced for, or what it remains are people with political agendas to destroy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Sasha, thanks for weighing in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> I’m curious about whether we can melt it all down or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we were hearing from Erin, you know, just what kinds of potential consequences you could face for that. I don’t know if you want to add anything to Sasha’s point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll just say that I think that a lot of the stuff that got stuck up around the White House might not be actual gold, so melting it down might produce a lot of plastic fumes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was a suspicion. Let me go to David in Indiana next. David, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David:\u003c/strong> Well, since, uh… arches tend to commemorate something specific, and one of the biggest, if not the biggest, concern of Americans right now is affordability, maybe it should be named the Arch of Affordability, the Triumph of Affordability, or at least nicknamed that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, David, thanks. Yeah, if you can’t take it down, maybe you just reimagine and reconstitute its purpose. That could be one way to handle it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So RJ writes, “How can judges be so gullible and not see through claims that these projects are for national security?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wanna ask you about this, Tom. What is the status of the legal challenge, right? What can you tell us about the arch in particular?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, there are lawsuits pending, but to your listener’s point, it’s not that judges are gullible. It’s that they don’t think they have the power to contradict the executive on what constitutes national security, which is why this keeps getting kicked up further and further because there are some judges that say, okay, fine, I’m not buying that argument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, precedence, precedent and history tend to be on the side of presidents when they say national security. The courts basically say someone besides us has to adjudicate what the answer — usually be in Congress, since we don’t actually have a function in Congress right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s not that the judges are gullible, it’s that I think some of them feel that their hands are tied.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I wanted to make, if I could, I just wanna make a quick note about what monuments are for, because Erin’s point is very important. But I think it depends on where you live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I lived and worked in Boston for years. And monuments can also be really important reminders about what’s good in us and what we should remember about ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you walked from my old office in the State House on Beacon Hill, all the way down through the garden and the Boston Common and the Public Garden, you would pass a plaque, a sculpture dedicated to Robert Gould Shaw, for example, the commander of the Massachusetts 54th, the first Black Army unit. You go further down, you pass statues of abolitionists. You walk out of the Public Garden under the gaze of George Washington.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The problem is that Donald Trump is cheapening our notion of what a memorial is by taking them and basically admitting, as he did — he was interviewed last summer and basically someone said, are you putting these up because they’re afraid they won’t put them up for you when you’re gone? And he said, yeah, this is what I want. And no one will do this once I’m gone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, in a democracy, if you’re saying, I want to put these up because no one wants them but me, that’s a really kind of revealing and dysfunctional thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So yes, it’s true that memorials can be these awful attempts to intimidate people. Trump’s efforts, by the way, remind me not of — although I think Colosseum is a great example — I spent a lot of time in the old Soviet Union, and his projects remind me of these outsized Soviet war memorials that were everywhere in Moscow and Leningrad and Kiev and other places in the Old Soviet Union.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s just not the kind of country we are, but that doesn’t mean that we should forget how memorials can really inspire us and make us better people just by seeing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Barbara writes, “Trump builds these illegal monuments to himself because he knows others will not. They need to be torn down at the earliest opportunity. We cannot let these un-American monuments to a cruel, lawless, corrupt leader stand. Symbols matter.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners, you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think — and I know I’m asking you to sort of get into the mind, but I imagine, Erin, you have some thoughts on this. Is the simplistic message he wants to send with these monuments to himself — what do you think he’s hoping people will associate with him? Wealth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Our goodness. Yeah, it’s not too complicated, I think. And it has been the same in monuments throughout time. Bigger is better, is permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s interesting that we do tend to think of monuments as permanent, but they really aren’t. America is very strange in that we’ve had the same set of monuments for so long, but almost every other culture, country in the world has seen waves of monuments go up and down every time power changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So yeah, I think we should get used to the idea, thinking of our monuments as lovely but temporary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think we think of them as so permanent just because of the way that they’re built, and like marble and stone. Yeah, that’s just — that’s why they’re so big, you can’t ignore them. Yeah, and you have to look up at them and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, in the short term, can it serve the political purpose of distraction, say, from the things that he hasn’t been able to keep his promises on in this particular presidency? Erin or Tom. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, sorry. Yes, but I think it’s backfiring in the way that we discussed earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If we were winning the war in Iran, and we are not, you could almost see people making an argument to say, well, we’ve toppled a terrible regime. We’ve been at each other’s throats for nearly a half century. And the people of Iran are going to be free. And who? You know, whatever argument you want to make, and therefore we should put up something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The problem is that everything that he would want to commemorate, including himself — I mean, who puts up a monument to himself when he’s at 30%? You know, that’s the kind of, I suppose, grim and laughable part of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He’s losing war, the economy is tumbling off the rails, his party is about to be clobbered. Um, you know, in, in, um, at least by all indications that we can see so far, his party’s going to get obliterated in the midterms. His — he’s at historic, he’s reaching, he has fallen below, uh, what our friend Sarah Longwell calls the Bush line, the George W. Bush line. And he’s now heading for Nixon territory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you know who’s, who’s response to that is to say, you don’t — we need a memorial, a statue, a ballroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and I think that’s the kind of shock that hits people. If things were going well, you would have a lot of people defending this or at least ignoring it. And instead he’s doing this at a time that I think a lot of ordinary Americans who don’t usually pay a lot of attention to the news are getting home from the grocery store and saying, you know, you’ve got to be kidding me. Well, what is this about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it is breaking through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Gregory in Oakland writes, “I appreciate the point that it’s not just the system, but also the people who keep enabling this behavior from our leaders. These projects ultimately distract us from issues that matter even more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trish writes, “He knows that nobody is going to honor him in such a grand manner once he’s out of the picture. So he has to honor himself given the atrocities that he and his administration have perpetrated upon the nation and the world. I suspect that one day there will be a move to tear down all of his creations just as we are doing nowadays for those who have been revealed for their atrocities.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump’s name has been taken down for now from the Kennedy Center. Tom, can you just remind us of the status of all that? Because I know you’ve also recently reported on it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, this is, I mean, I think another place where people are starting to pay attention in a way that they didn’t before is looking at him and saying, with all the things going on in the world, he’s fixated on this, that he has to have his name next to Jack Kennedy for some reason, you know, in a city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we should also stipulate here what George — excuse me, Donald Trump hates Washington. I mean, it’s not a city where he is popular. He doesn’t like it there. When he first came to — in his first term, he actually tried to figure out if he could govern the country from New York instead of having to move to Washington.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the city kind of hates him back. I mean, he is tremendously unpopular there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he’s been trying to get this done. The courts have told him that he cannot put his name on it. Then he said, well, if I renovate it — well, can we put a big plaque? This is all done through his trustees, by the way, who are all basically his cronies. If I renovate it, can you put a plaque on it that said, renovated by the Trump Kennedy Center Foundation or some damn thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the courts again said, nice try, very funny, but no.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now the trustees have said, well, if we can’t rename it and the president won’t help us fundraise to rebuild it, we’re going to have to tear it down. Which was Trump event, essentially. I wrote a piece about it saying this is basically blackmail. This is the Dane-geld, as Kipling called it. He wants a payoff, he wants his name on it, or he’s going to destroy this beloved national icon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And my argument is that we ought to let him. I think in full view of the American people, if this is who he is and the kind of administration he’s running, then I think Americans ought to see the John F. Kennedy Center torn down because the president had a temper tantrum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that’s where it stands now. He can’t get his name on it. The courts have stopped him at every turn, and his threat now is, it’s so decrepit that without my money, you know, without me raising money, it’ll have to be torn down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, as we’ve talked about, this issue with the monuments is very much a metaphor for his presidency. Thanks for digging through it with us. Tom Nichols of \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> and Erin Thompson of City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and also thank you for doing that with us, our listeners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And my thanks as well for Ana de Amaral for producing this segment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>From the White House ballroom to the Kennedy Center to a proposed triumphal arch along the Potomac, President Trump has taken a special interest in creating physical markers of his legacy. We’ll look at how he’s largely escaped oversight, including by designating these projects as central to national security. Why are monuments such a priority for Trump, and what does this tell us about the growing reach of executive power?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Of all the things the president has on his plate — the war in Iran, high fuel and food prices, steep potential losses for his party in the midterms — what seems to animate Trump the most are his building projects. The latest announcement this week is that his proposed triumphal arch on D.C.’s Memorial Circle will now be a military complex, complete with snipers and drones for national security reasons. And for all the skepticism and unpopularity of the idea, it continues to move forward for now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Of all the things the president has on his plate — the war in Iran, high fuel and food prices, steep potential losses for his party in the midterms — what seems to animate Trump the most are his building projects. The latest announcement this week is that his proposed triumphal arch on D.C.’s Memorial Circle will now be a military complex, complete with snipers and drones for national security reasons. And for all the skepticism and unpopularity of the idea, it continues to move forward for now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This hour, we look at how Trump’s construction projects are changing the landscape and the reach of executive power and the role of monuments in shaping a collective narrative. Starting us off is Tom Nichols, whose latest piece for \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> is called “Trump’s Monumental Obsession.” Good to have you back, Tom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This hour, we look at how Trump’s construction projects are changing the landscape and the reach of executive power and the role of monuments in shaping a collective narrative. Starting us off is Tom Nichols, whose latest piece for \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> is called “Trump’s Monumental Obsession.” Good to have you back, Tom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So first, talk about why the idea of militarizing the arch has drawn fresh skepticism and pushback from not only you, but retired generals, preservationists, others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So first, talk about why the idea of militarizing the arch has drawn fresh skepticism and pushback from not only you, but retired generals, preservationists, others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Because it’s crazy. You’re talking about putting an arch in the middle of a busy traffic circle, and anybody who’s ever been to Washington has probably experienced that particular area between the cemetery and the Lincoln Memorial and downtown D.C. And the idea of filling it with weapons while cars sit in traffic around it every day. And airplanes, by the way, this is another problem, as airplanes fly over it because it’s right in the approach path for Reagan National Airport. It’s a stupid and dangerous idea.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Because it’s crazy. You’re talking about putting an arch in the middle of a busy traffic circle, and anybody who’s ever been to Washington has probably experienced that particular area between the cemetery and the Lincoln Memorial and downtown D.C. And the idea of filling it with weapons while cars sit in traffic around it every day. And airplanes, by the way, this is another problem, as airplanes fly over it because it’s right in the approach path for Reagan National Airport. It’s a stupid and dangerous idea.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I also don’t think that the president is serious about it. He’s saying this because he knows that national security arguments tend to prevail in court, as he did with the ballroom. When people sued to stop him from demolishing the East Wing and building the ballroom, some of his opponents won in court and there was a tussle back and forth. Then Trump said, no, this is a national security project. It’s to build a bunker and an operation center, and the ballroom is just a kind of a hat we’re putting on top of that national security stuff. The courts bought it. Supreme Court, all the way down, you know. Well, you know, the president gets his way on national security issues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I also don’t think that the president is serious about it. He’s saying this because he knows that national security arguments tend to prevail in court, as he did with the ballroom. When people sued to stop him from demolishing the East Wing and building the ballroom, some of his opponents won in court and there was a tussle back and forth. Then Trump said, no, this is a national security project. It’s to build a bunker and an operation center, and the ballroom is just a kind of a hat we’re putting on top of that national security stuff. The courts bought it. Supreme Court, all the way down, you know. Well, you know, the president gets his way on national security issues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did the courts buy it? What does recasting the building project as military infrastructure and therefore a national security asset, right, help Trump do with the courts and with Congress as well?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> The courts have always — I should say always since the end of World War II, since the Cold War, when national security became a thing, became a phrase. You know, before World War Two, very rare to actually see the phrase “national security” used anywhere. And during the Cold War, we created a national security state and we prioritized national security above a lot of things, including civil liberties. And we did it again after 9/11.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So when presidents invoke national security, courts kind of wrap that under the president’s Article II powers. And they become very hesitant to interfere with that because they don’t want to interfere with what they think is the president’s legitimate sphere of competence and power on that issue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s become a thing where presidents, not just Donald Trump, but presidents in the past, have said, well, to get through a policy I really want to get to, matter of national security. And that’s kind of meant to snuff out debate about whether the thing involved is actually important or worth the money or even legal. So that’s why it happens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> This does also undermine Congress’s authority to constrain it at all in a substantive way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it always has. I mean, the national security argument has always been part of the shift, the migration in power from Congress to an imperial presidency. Presidents over the course of the Cold War and then during the war on terror, executive power has expanded vastly beyond what I think the founders envisioned in the Constitution.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it always has. I mean, the national security argument has always been part of the shift, the migration in power from Congress to an imperial presidency. Presidents over the course of the Cold War and then during the war on terror, executive power has expanded vastly beyond what I think the founders envisioned in the Constitution.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the president has become, you know, the vicar of national security, and it’s a very effective argument to make. And sometimes, you know — let’s be fair about this — sometimes it’s a legitimate argument. There are things that the executive branch has to do in the name of national security, like build bunkers under the White House.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the president has become, you know, the vicar of national security, and it’s a very effective argument to make. And sometimes, you know — let’s be fair about this — sometimes it’s a legitimate argument. There are things that the executive branch has to do in the name of national security, like build bunkers under the White House.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when that gets applied to things like tariffs, for example, you know, Trump at one point claimed that tariffs were a matter of national security. Pretty soon everything becomes a matter of national security because presidents, and this president in particular, just like the fact that it sort of, you know, just kind of shuts down opposition and legal challenges to whatever it is he wants to do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But when that gets applied to things like tariffs, for example, you know, Trump at one point claimed that tariffs were a matter of national security. Pretty soon everything becomes a matter of national security because presidents, and this president in particular, just like the fact that it sort of, you know, just kind of shuts down opposition and legal challenges to whatever it is he wants to do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. I mean, Trump argued that the ban on CNN, MS NOW, and Politico from White House grounds was because they were a threat to our national security.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. I mean, Trump argued that the ban on CNN, MS NOW, and Politico from White House grounds was because they were a threat to our national security.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about President Trump’s militarized arch? You know, why do you think these construction projects are so important to the president? Do these things bother you? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about President Trump’s militarized arch? You know, why do you think these construction projects are so important to the president? Do these things bother you? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or by calling 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or by calling 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those are on Discord, right? “Trump’s building projects are a frustrating waste of money and grotesque display of ego. But honestly, I prioritize his D.C. monuments pretty low compared to other damage he’s doing to the country and world. Everything built can be disassembled.” Do you think that? The types of things he’s building now could easily be disassembled?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those are on Discord, right? “Trump’s building projects are a frustrating waste of money and grotesque display of ego. But honestly, I prioritize his D.C. monuments pretty low compared to other damage he’s doing to the country and world. Everything built can be disassembled.” Do you think that? The types of things he’s building now could easily be disassembled?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I think some of them can be. I personally, as a former Washington resident — I should say a former suburban resident. I used to work on the Hill and spent my graduate years at Georgetown and all that. I think that these are atrocious and garish projects, and I would happily support any president who says the ballroom’s got to go and we’re going to rebuild the East Wing and not put up an armed platform in the middle of, in front of Arlington Cemetery.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I think some of them can be. I personally, as a former Washington resident — I should say a former suburban resident. I used to work on the Hill and spent my graduate years at Georgetown and all that. I think that these are atrocious and garish projects, and I would happily support any president who says the ballroom’s got to go and we’re going to rebuild the East Wing and not put up an armed platform in the middle of, in front of Arlington Cemetery.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has proven one thing, that if you can put these things up through sheer willpower, a president can take them down through sheer willpower.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has proven one thing, that if you can put these things up through sheer willpower, a president can take them down through sheer willpower.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think your listener, I agree with your listener who said, hey, this isn’t the biggest problem in the world except for two things, I would say. One is that Donald Trump is establishing that presidents can just spend money at will simply by chanting “national security” over even trivial and dumb things, like putting up this kind of, you know, bit of militaristic bombast.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I think your listener, I agree with your listener who said, hey, this isn’t the biggest problem in the world except for two things, I would say. One is that Donald Trump is establishing that presidents can just spend money at will simply by chanting “national security” over even trivial and dumb things, like putting up this kind of, you know, bit of militaristic bombast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I referred to the victory arch that he wants to put up as something that looks like it was found in the bottom desk drawer of, you know, Albert Speer’s desk. And it’s just ugly. But he can just build it because he’s — national security, and he snaps his fingers and people start digging.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I referred to the victory arch that he wants to put up as something that looks like it was found in the bottom desk drawer of, you know, Albert Speer’s desk. And it’s just ugly. But he can just build it because he’s — national security, and he snaps his fingers and people start digging.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So once you establish that, you’re setting a lot of bad precedents here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So once you establish that, you’re setting a lot of bad precedents here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The other is that I think symbolism matters. I think, I think, you know, the president, the White House in particular, is meant to be dignified and austere, but not bombastic and overwhelming. And I think it’s an affront to the culture of democracy to put up a Tsarist ballroom that would make a King Louis of France blush in the middle of the place that’s meant to be the people’s house.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The other is that I think symbolism matters. I think, I think, you know, the president, the White House in particular, is meant to be dignified and austere, but not bombastic and overwhelming. And I think it’s an affront to the culture of democracy to put up a Tsarist ballroom that would make a King Louis of France blush in the middle of the place that’s meant to be the people’s house.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I, while it’s not the most important thing in the world, it’s more important than it may seem.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I, while it’s not the most important thing in the world, it’s more important than it may seem.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I know. And also I think in the context of all the other things that are happening in the country, as you point out in your piece and as I mentioned in the intro, I think it’s concerning to have that be the main focus of the president. Is there any chance at all that because he noted that it was at the military’s request, is there a chance at all, as someone who knows the military well, that he would have found people in the military to say, yes, this is something that could be meaningful for national security?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I know. And also I think in the context of all the other things that are happening in the country, as you point out in your piece and as I mentioned in the intro, I think it’s concerning to have that be the main focus of the president. Is there any chance at all that because he noted that it was at the military’s request, is there a chance at all, as someone who knows the military well, that he would have found people in the military to say, yes, this is something that could be meaningful for national security?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I would — this again, my personal view here is that I will file that under things that didn’t happen. He may well have turned to Pete Hegseth and said, Pete, maybe we should build a big arch. And he said, good idea, sir. And that was the source of saying the military has asked for it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I would — this again, my personal view here is that I will file that under things that didn’t happen. He may well have turned to Pete Hegseth and said, Pete, maybe we should build a big arch. And he said, good idea, sir. And that was the source of saying the military has asked for it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I cannot imagine that, you know, anybody in the uniformed military was sitting around and saying, hey, you know what would really improve that arch? Snipers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I cannot imagine that, you know, anybody in the uniformed military was sitting around and saying, hey, you know what would really improve that arch? Snipers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Is it possible in this administration? Again, he may have turned to some hapless colonel and said, Colonel, you think that’s a good idea, right? And the guy’s going to say, oh, whatever you think, Mr. President.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Is it possible in this administration? Again, he may have turned to some hapless colonel and said, Colonel, you think that’s a good idea, right? And the guy’s going to say, oh, whatever you think, Mr. President.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I just don’t believe that people walked into his office and said, Mr. President, you got to build this armed platform right next to Reagan National. Uh… Because, you know, it’s a matter of national security. I, I just — it can — I could be wrong, but I just don’t believe that happened.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I just don’t believe that people walked into his office and said, Mr. President, you got to build this armed platform right next to Reagan National. Uh… Because, you know, it’s a matter of national security. I, I just — it can — I could be wrong, but I just don’t believe that happened.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You noted costs as well. Do you know who is paying for these monuments and what kind of cost we are looking at, or maybe costs across things like the arch and the ballroom?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You noted costs as well. Do you know who is paying for these monuments and what kind of cost we are looking at, or maybe costs across things like the arch and the ballroom?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry. Are you insisting on transparency and how millions of dollars are being spent in Washington? That sounds like communism. I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry. Are you insisting on transparency and how millions of dollars are being spent in Washington? That sounds like communism. I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s another part of this problem. I mean, the president changes stories every other day on — you saw this with the ballroom. Well, it’s only going to cost this much and we’re going to get donations and it’s not going to be a big deal. And then the costs balloon and then it turns out we are using government money. Don’t hurt! But again, only for national security, because there’s going to be a thing under it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s another part of this problem. I mean, the president changes stories every other day on — you saw this with the ballroom. Well, it’s only going to cost this much and we’re going to get donations and it’s not going to be a big deal. And then the costs balloon and then it turns out we are using government money. Don’t hurt! But again, only for national security, because there’s going to be a thing under it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the end, the president — this is a personalized cult of personality regime inside the White House, where the president says, I want a victory arch. And a bunch of people look at each other and say, well, yes, okay. And we’ll figure out who’s paying for it and how all that’s going to happen later.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>In the end, the president — this is a personalized cult of personality regime inside the White House, where the president says, I want a victory arch. And a bunch of people look at each other and say, well, yes, okay. And we’ll figure out who’s paying for it and how all that’s going to happen later.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if we had a Congress that cared about oversight… You would know. But because this Congress currently is controlled by a Republican majority that is mostly terrified of Trump because nobody wants to end up, you know, primaried like John Cornyn or, you know, Cassidy or Tom Tillis or any of these people that are leaving, they simply kind of keep their head down and they’re just waiting for this.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And if we had a Congress that cared about oversight… You would know. But because this Congress currently is controlled by a Republican majority that is mostly terrified of Trump because nobody wants to end up, you know, primaried like John Cornyn or, you know, Cassidy or Tom Tillis or any of these people that are leaving, they simply kind of keep their head down and they’re just waiting for this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s been almost 10 years of some Republicans just waiting this to blow over, but obviously it’s not gonna blow over. And Trump’s gonna spend this money and nobody’s gonna really ask why.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s been almost 10 years of some Republicans just waiting this to blow over, but obviously it’s not gonna blow over. And Trump’s gonna spend this money and nobody’s gonna really ask why.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with \u003cem>Atlantic\u003c/em> staff writer Tom Nichols about Trump’s triumphal arch and his special interest in creating physical markers of his legacy and why neither Congress nor the courts right now have been able to end these projects, especially when the administration cites national security.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with \u003cem>Atlantic\u003c/em> staff writer Tom Nichols about Trump’s triumphal arch and his special interest in creating physical markers of his legacy and why neither Congress nor the courts right now have been able to end these projects, especially when the administration cites national security.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Mina Kim. Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s triumphal arch, the White House ballroom, and other building projects that have drawn the president’s attention and how these construction projects are extending the reach of executive power, even if on the face of them they don’t seem as much of an issue for the country as, say, things like the war in Iran and high fuel and food prices.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I’m Mina Kim. Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s triumphal arch, the White House ballroom, and other building projects that have drawn the president’s attention and how these construction projects are extending the reach of executive power, even if on the face of them they don’t seem as much of an issue for the country as, say, things like the war in Iran and high fuel and food prices.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking about this with Tom Nichols. With you, our listeners, join the conversation by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re talking about this with Tom Nichols. With you, our listeners, join the conversation by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What questions do you have about the president’s efforts to push building projects through D.C.? Why do you think he wants to do this? And do they bother you? Why or why not? How do you think these projects will inform how we remember President Trump?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What questions do you have about the president’s efforts to push building projects through D.C.? Why do you think he wants to do this? And do they bother you? Why or why not? How do you think these projects will inform how we remember President Trump?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let me go to caller Susan in Marin. Hi, Susan. Go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let me go to caller Susan in Marin. Hi, Susan. Go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan:\u003c/strong> I think, uh… I hold Congress as responsible for the ballroom as I hold Trump. Uh… They’re the part of our government that’s supposed to be able to spend money, and the fact that they’re allowing him to take money out of, uh… common bank is just, it just makes me furious. They’ve done nothing for an awful long time, and this is nothing that is going to cost us millions and millions and billions of money.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan:\u003c/strong> I think, uh… I hold Congress as responsible for the ballroom as I hold Trump. Uh… They’re the part of our government that’s supposed to be able to spend money, and the fact that they’re allowing him to take money out of, uh… common bank is just, it just makes me furious. They’ve done nothing for an awful long time, and this is nothing that is going to cost us millions and millions and billions of money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing how you feel about this, Susan. Let me go to Colin next in San Francisco. Colin, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing how you feel about this, Susan. Let me go to Colin next in San Francisco. Colin, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Colin:\u003c/strong> Good morning. I’m not as concerned about the proposed, um, victory arch or Arc de Triomphe, whatever we want to call it, because it’s very unlikely that it will be completed within Trump’s lifetime. It’s likely going to be abandoned just as soon as he’s out of office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Colin:\u003c/strong> Good morning. I’m not as concerned about the proposed, um, victory arch or Arc de Triomphe, whatever we want to call it, because it’s very unlikely that it will be completed within Trump’s lifetime. It’s likely going to be abandoned just as soon as he’s out of office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The original Arc de Triomphe took about 30 years from, uh, inception under Napoleon Bonaparte to completion in 1836. Um, it’s also my, you know, it could jinx this country too. You know, after the Arch of Triumph was built, the Germans were able to stage two victory parades in 1871 and 1940 under or by the arch.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The original Arc de Triomphe took about 30 years from, uh, inception under Napoleon Bonaparte to completion in 1836. Um, it’s also my, you know, it could jinx this country too. You know, after the Arch of Triumph was built, the Germans were able to stage two victory parades in 1871 and 1940 under or by the arch.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing where you’re at and what you think in terms of jinxing. That’s an interesting point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing where you’re at and what you think in terms of jinxing. That’s an interesting point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I do want to bring Erin Thompson into the conversation now, professor of art crime at City University, New York, and also the author of the book \u003cem>Smashing Statues: The Rise and Fall of America’s Public Monuments\u003c/em>. Erin, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I do want to bring Erin Thompson into the conversation now, professor of art crime at City University, New York, and also the author of the book \u003cem>Smashing Statues: The Rise and Fall of America’s Public Monuments\u003c/em>. Erin, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So stepping back a bit, you know, help us understand the power of monuments as people sort of grapple with how significant this moment is with regards to Trump. How could they affect us generally, the public?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So stepping back a bit, you know, help us understand the power of monuments as people sort of grapple with how significant this moment is with regards to Trump. How could they affect us generally, the public?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, monuments are really about capturing the future. They’re about shaping the memory of the past. So I think it will be very difficult to get rid of any monuments, really, but Trump’s monuments in particular, and they’re going to keep shaping what we value about America. So it…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, monuments are really about capturing the future. They’re about shaping the memory of the past. So I think it will be very difficult to get rid of any monuments, really, but Trump’s monuments in particular, and they’re going to keep shaping what we value about America. So it…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that you say they have that type of power because they feel, you know, sort of very limiting in some ways of sending a message. Can you talk about how or where their power lies? I guess maybe even in their simplicity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that you say they have that type of power because they feel, you know, sort of very limiting in some ways of sending a message. Can you talk about how or where their power lies? I guess maybe even in their simplicity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Monuments don’t actually teach history. There’s not enough space for that. They just tell us who should you literally look up to, who is large, who should be honored and hold power.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Monuments don’t actually teach history. There’s not enough space for that. They just tell us who should you literally look up to, who is large, who should be honored and hold power.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Say there’s a certain power in the way we sort of get used to them, how they fade into the background. How so?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Say there’s a certain power in the way we sort of get used to them, how they fade into the background. How so?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, their power is in their boringness. We accept them, we take them for granted. Something like 90% of the public monuments in the U.S. honor white men, for example. So that constant message about who deserves to hold power in the U.S., I think, has a continuing effect.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, their power is in their boringness. We accept them, we take them for granted. Something like 90% of the public monuments in the U.S. honor white men, for example. So that constant message about who deserves to hold power in the U.S., I think, has a continuing effect.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Tom, you know, Trump was quoted as saying, out of the 59 top cities and capitals, Washington, D.C. is the only one in the world that does not have a triumphal arch. And you were noting earlier, you that sort of Americans have a certain dislike of those kinds of things, or generally does not do this in our capitals for, for good reason. What are those reasons?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Tom, you know, Trump was quoted as saying, out of the 59 top cities and capitals, Washington, D.C. is the only one in the world that does not have a triumphal arch. And you were noting earlier, you that sort of Americans have a certain dislike of those kinds of things, or generally does not do this in our capitals for, for good reason. What are those reasons?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, for one, we tend to celebrate the citizen soldier, the people among us who fought and died, which is why our war memorials, especially in the modern era, tend to be more muted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, for one, we tend to celebrate the citizen soldier, the people among us who fought and died, which is why our war memorials, especially in the modern era, tend to be more muted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You do have some big monuments that came after the Civil War to the Union. There’s one in New York, there’s actually very few of them in Boston, but a lot of statues. But by and large, Americans view going to war as something they’ve been dragged into. One of my late colleagues used to call it the avenging angel syndrome that, well, you know, by God, we didn’t start this thing, but we’ll get in there and finish it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You do have some big monuments that came after the Civil War to the Union. There’s one in New York, there’s actually very few of them in Boston, but a lot of statues. But by and large, Americans view going to war as something they’ve been dragged into. One of my late colleagues used to call it the avenging angel syndrome that, well, you know, by God, we didn’t start this thing, but we’ll get in there and finish it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then we kind of come home and realize that, you know, war takes a toll on a democracy. So we don’t build these Napoleonic arches. We don’t build these, you know, Germany, these these kind of Nazi, you know, winged angels or Soviet, you know, the big Soviet Mother of Russia with the sword and the shield and all that stuff. We were just not that kind of culture.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then we kind of come home and realize that, you know, war takes a toll on a democracy. So we don’t build these Napoleonic arches. We don’t build these, you know, Germany, these these kind of Nazi, you know, winged angels or Soviet, you know, the big Soviet Mother of Russia with the sword and the shield and all that stuff. We were just not that kind of culture.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So when Trump says, you know, we’re the only country in the world that doesn’t have one of these things, that’s, I think, the right answer to that is that’s right. And that’s good. And that one of the things that’s good about America, that we don’t do that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So when Trump says, you know, we’re the only country in the world that doesn’t have one of these things, that’s, I think, the right answer to that is that’s right. And that’s good. And that one of the things that’s good about America, that we don’t do that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Trump is very much — you can see it in his taste, which is vulgar and deeply affected by the grandeur that he sees in other cities. And he thinks that this makes America and him somehow less of a player, less majestic on the world scene not to have one of these big arteries.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But Trump is very much — you can see it in his taste, which is vulgar and deeply affected by the grandeur that he sees in other cities. And he thinks that this makes America and him somehow less of a player, less majestic on the world scene not to have one of these big arteries.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I always think of what your caller, your most recent caller, said. You know, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris has been a mixed blessing. It was meant to honor the French victory in the Battle of Austerlitz in a war that eventually Napoleon lost and ended up exiled and dead for conducting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I always think of what your caller, your most recent caller, said. You know, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris has been a mixed blessing. It was meant to honor the French victory in the Battle of Austerlitz in a war that eventually Napoleon lost and ended up exiled and dead for conducting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So maybe it’s not a good thing to put these things up. Maybe things like the Vietnam Memorial, the World War II Memorial, and others are much more thoughtful and much more in line with the American character.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So maybe it’s not a good thing to put these things up. Maybe things like the Vietnam Memorial, the World War II Memorial, and others are much more thoughtful and much more in line with the American character.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think listener Eric would agree with you in terms of taste. Eric writes, “Trump uses emergency when there is none. He breaks the law faster than the law can apply remedies. Also, he has horrible taste in design.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think listener Eric would agree with you in terms of taste. Eric writes, “Trump uses emergency when there is none. He breaks the law faster than the law can apply remedies. Also, he has horrible taste in design.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Erin, I understand you recently visited D.C. and tried to visit many of the locations that President Trump is trying to change or build. What did you notice about the aesthetic?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Erin, I understand you recently visited D.C. and tried to visit many of the locations that President Trump is trying to change or build. What did you notice about the aesthetic?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, first that they’re even worse in person. So the $5 million have recently been spent on re-gilding four statues on the Arlington Memorial Bridge between the Lincoln Memorial and Arlington Cemetery. And they now look like they should be unwrapped and have chocolate inside. They’re so shiny and ridiculous looking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, first that they’re even worse in person. So the $5 million have recently been spent on re-gilding four statues on the Arlington Memorial Bridge between the Lincoln Memorial and Arlington Cemetery. And they now look like they should be unwrapped and have chocolate inside. They’re so shiny and ridiculous looking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was also a no-bid contract, his favorite form of using government money. But much more disturbing to me was the fact that so little was visible. There is a giant fence around the White House and Lafayette Park, which is a public space, preventing you from seeing where the East Wing used to be, where the construction is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was also a no-bid contract, his favorite form of using government money. But much more disturbing to me was the fact that so little was visible. There is a giant fence around the White House and Lafayette Park, which is a public space, preventing you from seeing where the East Wing used to be, where the construction is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I agree in a way that monuments are not the most important things, but I think they’re the gilded canary in the coal mine. And if he’s able to hide what he’s doing with these construction projects, what else is he not telling us?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I agree in a way that monuments are not the most important things, but I think they’re the gilded canary in the coal mine. And if he’s able to hide what he’s doing with these construction projects, what else is he not telling us?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to caller Charlotte next in Menlo Park. Charlotte, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to caller Charlotte next in Menlo Park. Charlotte, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charlotte:\u003c/strong> Yes, hi. Thank you so much for the program. Uh… I’ve wanted to just chime in about it, actually, just that that’s what, uh… And she said just now about the White House. I have very strong feelings of love of the monuments of Washington, D.C., and, uh… I am wondering, can people actually still fit at the White House the way that they could before, or what it — what is the policy? Is it — has it changed? Are people banned from even visiting anymore?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charlotte:\u003c/strong> Yes, hi. Thank you so much for the program. Uh… I’ve wanted to just chime in about it, actually, just that that’s what, uh… And she said just now about the White House. I have very strong feelings of love of the monuments of Washington, D.C., and, uh… I am wondering, can people actually still fit at the White House the way that they could before, or what it — what is the policy? Is it — has it changed? Are people banned from even visiting anymore?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm, Erin?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm, Erin?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Charlotte. I think it’s been greatly reduced. It is still, in theory, available, but Lafayette Park, for example, which is a popular pedestrian place to see the White House, is now closed more and more frequently. And the Trump administration has just proposed putting up a permanent fence to replace the janky-looking tarp construction they’ve got happening now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Charlotte. I think it’s been greatly reduced. It is still, in theory, available, but Lafayette Park, for example, which is a popular pedestrian place to see the White House, is now closed more and more frequently. And the Trump administration has just proposed putting up a permanent fence to replace the janky-looking tarp construction they’ve got happening now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Erin, what do you think is the overall message of this? We did a show on aesthetics in the past when Trump was sort of adorning the Oval Office with gold and so on. So this combination of sort of a gilded and what I think you’re describing feels like a gilded fortress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Erin, what do you think is the overall message of this? We did a show on aesthetics in the past when Trump was sort of adorning the Oval Office with gold and so on. So this combination of sort of a gilded and what I think you’re describing feels like a gilded fortress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And another reason that D.C. hasn’t had a triumphal arch is that those arches celebrate a single leader. That’s not democracy. It’s a little less aesthetically unified to have monuments celebrating a whole host of people, but that’s what we need to do in a democracy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And another reason that D.C. hasn’t had a triumphal arch is that those arches celebrate a single leader. That’s not democracy. It’s a little less aesthetically unified to have monuments celebrating a whole host of people, but that’s what we need to do in a democracy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What the redesign of D.C. is doing is suggesting to visitors for potentially generations to come that power should be and is concentrated in the hands of the few or even one person, and that wealth should be the requirement of power. Whereas that is something that since the very beginnings of official congressional, national, federal arts has been fought against.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What the redesign of D.C. is doing is suggesting to visitors for potentially generations to come that power should be and is concentrated in the hands of the few or even one person, and that wealth should be the requirement of power. Whereas that is something that since the very beginnings of official congressional, national, federal arts has been fought against.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think this on Discord is echoing some of your points. The listener writes, “This is a symptom of a weak and vulnerable form of government that can be so easily taken over by one person. One person has corrupted all three branches of government. The power and self-interest of those around him have allowed Trump to seemingly do whatever he wants without meaningful challenges or accountability. He doesn’t ask permission. His reign ends in two years. But what does this say about the future of democracy?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think this on Discord is echoing some of your points. The listener writes, “This is a symptom of a weak and vulnerable form of government that can be so easily taken over by one person. One person has corrupted all three branches of government. The power and self-interest of those around him have allowed Trump to seemingly do whatever he wants without meaningful challenges or accountability. He doesn’t ask permission. His reign ends in two years. But what does this say about the future of democracy?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tom, do you want to weigh in on that too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tom, do you want to weigh in on that too?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think people should beware talking about the flaws of the system when what we’re really talking about are the flaws in the American people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think people should beware talking about the flaws of the system when what we’re really talking about are the flaws in the American people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>James Madison warned us during the debate on ratifying the Constitution. He was asked, you know, will these checks and balances really work? Are these institutions that you’re asking us here in Virginia — it was during the debate in Virginia — are these, you know, institutions really going to protect us in the you’re promising?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>James Madison warned us during the debate on ratifying the Constitution. He was asked, you know, will these checks and balances really work? Are these institutions that you’re asking us here in Virginia — it was during the debate in Virginia — are these, you know, institutions really going to protect us in the you’re promising?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Madison, I think with a certain amount of exasperation, said, none of these things work if we are not decent people. The way he put it, he said, “Is there no virtue among us? If not, then we are in a wretched situation.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Madison, I think with a certain amount of exasperation, said, none of these things work if we are not decent people. The way he put it, he said, “Is there no virtue among us? If not, then we are in a wretched situation.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That, I think, is part of what’s happening. The problem is not the design of the system, it’s not the Constitution or the branches of government. It’s that you have tens of millions of people who think this is okay, and some of them even think it’s more than okay. They like it, and they vote for it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That, I think, is part of what’s happening. The problem is not the design of the system, it’s not the Constitution or the branches of government. It’s that you have tens of millions of people who think this is okay, and some of them even think it’s more than okay. They like it, and they vote for it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a problem with our society, that there’s a kind of decadence on we that’s overtaken our society where millions of people just shrug and say, well, he’s going to build a ballroom. What are you going to do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a problem with our society, that there’s a kind of decadence on we that’s overtaken our society where millions of people just shrug and say, well, he’s going to build a ballroom. What are you going to do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that in an earlier time — and when I say earlier, I don’t mean 100 years ago, I mean like 20 years ago, 15 years ago — any one of these things would have been the source of a huge outcry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that in an earlier time — and when I say earlier, I don’t mean 100 years ago, I mean like 20 years ago, 15 years ago — any one of these things would have been the source of a huge outcry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has, by firehosing us with these crazy projects and ideas and wars and other things that he’s been doing, has just kind of worn people down into numbness to say, well, I guess we’re going to build this drone platform with a big winged victory statue on it. And what can we do about it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has, by firehosing us with these crazy projects and ideas and wars and other things that he’s been doing, has just kind of worn people down into numbness to say, well, I guess we’re going to build this drone platform with a big winged victory statue on it. And what can we do about it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s in part, again, because of the cowardice of his party, which now depends — the elected officials of his party depend on surviving primary challenges in which maybe 15 or 20% of the party votes. And that very small number of people has basically put a stranglehold on a party and on the legislature.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that’s in part, again, because of the cowardice of his party, which now depends — the elected officials of his party depend on surviving primary challenges in which maybe 15 or 20% of the party votes. And that very small number of people has basically put a stranglehold on a party and on the legislature.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, hopefully that can change if people get mad enough and vote. But I guess I would just caution everyone against saying, well, somehow the design of this system is flawed. This system was never meant to work if people did not have some kind of civic affection and involvement in it. And that, I think, is the source of our real problem here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, hopefully that can change if people get mad enough and vote. But I guess I would just caution everyone against saying, well, somehow the design of this system is flawed. This system was never meant to work if people did not have some kind of civic affection and involvement in it. And that, I think, is the source of our real problem here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Interestingly, you know, we had Sarah Longwell on not that long ago, and she seemed to think that this issue may actually be breaking through with some of his voters, just because the contrast is so stark, Tom, between Americans struggling, right, with economic pressures from the war, very much as a result of the war that he started, and these gilded statues and arches that he seems very fixated on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Interestingly, you know, we had Sarah Longwell on not that long ago, and she seemed to think that this issue may actually be breaking through with some of his voters, just because the contrast is so stark, Tom, between Americans struggling, right, with economic pressures from the war, very much as a result of the war that he started, and these gilded statues and arches that he seems very fixated on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Do you see that as actually being a place where maybe there will be pushback by the very electorate that has voted him in?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Do you see that as actually being a place where maybe there will be pushback by the very electorate that has voted him in?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I think you’re seeing that happen. I mean, for Donald Trump to be hovering now around 30, 32% popularity is really quite remarkable considering that he came back into office. I won a discontinuous election and managed to ride back into office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I think you’re seeing that happen. I mean, for Donald Trump to be hovering now around 30, 32% popularity is really quite remarkable considering that he came back into office. I won a discontinuous election and managed to ride back into office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sarah, I think Sarah’s right about this, and she of course is the one who has sat with hundreds of focus groups to hear it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sarah, I think Sarah’s right about this, and she of course is the one who has sat with hundreds of focus groups to hear it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think what breaks through is not necessarily the monuments as an issue per se. I don’t think anybody’s gonna get out there and vote and say, you know, I really don’t like this ballroom. But they’re standing there at the gas pump saying, you know, I’m paying four and a half bucks, or if you’re a farmer or trucker or something, you say, I’m payin’ you know six and a huff bucks for diesel, and this guy is running around like Goldfinger, you know, painting everything in gold.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think what breaks through is not necessarily the monuments as an issue per se. I don’t think anybody’s gonna get out there and vote and say, you know, I really don’t like this ballroom. But they’re standing there at the gas pump saying, you know, I’m paying four and a half bucks, or if you’re a farmer or trucker or something, you say, I’m payin’ you know six and a huff bucks for diesel, and this guy is running around like Goldfinger, you know, painting everything in gold.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Who’s thinking about me, and why is he putting up gold statues and sticking gold appliques on everything when I can’t afford to keep filling my car to take my kids to school?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Who’s thinking about me, and why is he putting up gold statues and sticking gold appliques on everything when I can’t afford to keep filling my car to take my kids to school?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that has broken through. I think it’s been a really important part of the nosedive in his popularity. He really does come across as a callous, uncaring king who basically tells the people to eat cake and that expensive gas is a small price to pay for having a great president like him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that has broken through. I think it’s been a really important part of the nosedive in his popularity. He really does come across as a callous, uncaring king who basically tells the people to eat cake and that expensive gas is a small price to pay for having a great president like him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Lorraine writes, “The expense of all these projects is deeply offensive in view that he tore healthcare away from millions of Americans through his big ugly bill.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Lorraine writes, “The expense of all these projects is deeply offensive in view that he tore healthcare away from millions of Americans through his big ugly bill.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Erin, can you think of a historical analog as well of a leader fixated on building monuments in the face of much more pressing problems?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Erin, can you think of a historical analog as well of a leader fixated on building monuments in the face of much more pressing problems?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, and I just want to say, too, that thousands of people came out last weekend to protest his threats to close the Kennedy Center. So he’s attacking what people love.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, and I just want to say, too, that thousands of people came out last weekend to protest his threats to close the Kennedy Center. So he’s attacking what people love.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And yeah, looking at Trump’s actions now made me think of the Colosseum. Right? In Rome, it’s named the Coliseum after the Colossus, a gigantic statue that stood beside it that was — he was one of the worst rulers of all history and was obsessed with trying to beautify Rome because he saw what was coming. He wanted to fix his reputation and it did not work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And yeah, looking at Trump’s actions now made me think of the Colosseum. Right? In Rome, it’s named the Coliseum after the Colossus, a gigantic statue that stood beside it that was — he was one of the worst rulers of all history and was obsessed with trying to beautify Rome because he saw what was coming. He wanted to fix his reputation and it did not work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He fiddled while Rome burned, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He fiddled while Rome burned, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Erin Thompson, Professor of Art Crime at City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and Tom Nichols, staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, about Trump’s focus on monuments and monuments, in many ways, to himself, the difficulties in curbing those actions by Congress and the courts, at least as they’re currently constituted, and what broader impact that has.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Erin Thompson, Professor of Art Crime at City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and Tom Nichols, staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, about Trump’s focus on monuments and monuments, in many ways, to himself, the difficulties in curbing those actions by Congress and the courts, at least as they’re currently constituted, and what broader impact that has.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can join the conversation, listeners, with your questions about his recent announcement of the militarized arch, which Tom Nichols wrote about, and also just how you feel about these construction projects. Do they matter to you? Do they bother you? Why or why not? What kinds of messages do you think they will send? And what would you like to see happen to them going forward, especially after the president’s presidency?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can join the conversation, listeners, with your questions about his recent announcement of the militarized arch, which Tom Nichols wrote about, and also just how you feel about these construction projects. Do they matter to you? Do they bother you? Why or why not? What kinds of messages do you think they will send? And what would you like to see happen to them going forward, especially after the president’s presidency?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Lorraine also writes, “Trump thinks that by splashing gold everywhere projects an image of wealth and power. The truth is an excess of gold makes those things look tawdry and cheap. As for the victory arch, where’s the victory? I hope I’m wrong, but the bunker under the ballroom combined with the militarization of the art paints a picture of a man who’s preparing to dig in after the 2028 election, if things don’t go his way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Lorraine also writes, “Trump thinks that by splashing gold everywhere projects an image of wealth and power. The truth is an excess of gold makes those things look tawdry and cheap. As for the victory arch, where’s the victory? I hope I’m wrong, but the bunker under the ballroom combined with the militarization of the art paints a picture of a man who’s preparing to dig in after the 2028 election, if things don’t go his way.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s building projects, his monument, which he did say, in fact, that the triumphal arch early when he was announcing it was in honor of him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s building projects, his monument, which he did say, in fact, that the triumphal arch early when he was announcing it was in honor of him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Trump’s Monumental Obsession” is the piece by Tom Nichols, our guest today, a staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, and Erin Thompson is author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em> and professor of art crime at City University in New York.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“Trump’s Monumental Obsession” is the piece by Tom Nichols, our guest today, a staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, and Erin Thompson is author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em> and professor of art crime at City University in New York.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And listeners, you’re joining the conversation with your questions about President Trump’s building projects, why you think he’s doing them and whether or not they bother you and why. 866-733-6786, the number. Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram is where you can post your comments. You can also email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And listeners, you’re joining the conversation with your questions about President Trump’s building projects, why you think he’s doing them and whether or not they bother you and why. 866-733-6786, the number. Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram is where you can post your comments. You can also email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this listener on Discord writes, “What about this spending in the context of the total national debt? After all, DOGE’s purpose was to cut spending, right? How can the spending on these monuments be reconciled with that purpose?”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And this listener on Discord writes, “What about this spending in the context of the total national debt? After all, DOGE’s purpose was to cut spending, right? How can the spending on these monuments be reconciled with that purpose?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Erin, we talked with Tom earlier about whether or not we really have a good sense of how much these projects are costing. I mean, Trump once promised to finance the building of his own giant ballroom himself or with private donors as well. And I was struck by how you have noted that actually often the kinds of monuments we see across this country are not put up by state or federal governments, that they’re actually put up…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Erin, we talked with Tom earlier about whether or not we really have a good sense of how much these projects are costing. I mean, Trump once promised to finance the building of his own giant ballroom himself or with private donors as well. And I was struck by how you have noted that actually often the kinds of monuments we see across this country are not put up by state or federal governments, that they’re actually put up…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> By private donors? Yes, we think of them as public monuments, but they’re not public in that the public has any say into what they look like or where they go or whether they should come down. Public monuments are usually only put up by those with enough power to find a place for them and enough money to pay for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> By private donors? Yes, we think of them as public monuments, but they’re not public in that the public has any say into what they look like or where they go or whether they should come down. Public monuments are usually only put up by those with enough power to find a place for them and enough money to pay for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So what does that then mean with regard to, you know, who gets to deliver whatever message they’re trying to deliver, as you were saying earlier, a monument does?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So what does that then mean with regard to, you know, who gets to deliver whatever message they’re trying to deliver, as you were saying earlier, a monument does?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> The history of monuments in the U.S. shows, at least I argue in my book, that they’re often meant to show the rest of us our place.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> The history of monuments in the U.S. shows, at least I argue in my book, that they’re often meant to show the rest of us our place.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, for example, a lot of Confederate memorials went up not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, but in the 20th century and were often associated with interracial unionization efforts. So if people started to threaten to strike, a monument would be put up by, say, the mine owners or the factory owners to remind white workers, don’t cross the color line, to ally yourself with your fellow workers. You need to respect the work of your Confederate forefathers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, for example, a lot of Confederate memorials went up not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, but in the 20th century and were often associated with interracial unionization efforts. So if people started to threaten to strike, a monument would be put up by, say, the mine owners or the factory owners to remind white workers, don’t cross the color line, to ally yourself with your fellow workers. You need to respect the work of your Confederate forefathers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think that the autocratic monuments we’re seeing today are also meant to remind us as voters, as citizens, you know, just sit tight. Let the elite make the decisions for you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think that the autocratic monuments we’re seeing today are also meant to remind us as voters, as citizens, you know, just sit tight. Let the elite make the decisions for you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> After the murder of George Floyd, though, suddenly all over the country, you start seeing monuments being taken down or graffitied. Why do you think that happened?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> After the murder of George Floyd, though, suddenly all over the country, you start seeing monuments being taken down or graffitied. Why do you think that happened?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s the power of monuments to make concrete intangible ideas about justice, equality, et cetera. So they were places to rally ourselves, to think about, to protest inequality and power. And they were in the news a lot, but only about 200 monuments left their pedestals after the murder of George Floyd, which is far, far less than 1% of the public monuments in the U.S., something like a tenth of a percent. And many of those were removed by official actions; only about 20 were taken down by protesters. So we still have a lot to think about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s the power of monuments to make concrete intangible ideas about justice, equality, et cetera. So they were places to rally ourselves, to think about, to protest inequality and power. And they were in the news a lot, but only about 200 monuments left their pedestals after the murder of George Floyd, which is far, far less than 1% of the public monuments in the U.S., something like a tenth of a percent. And many of those were removed by official actions; only about 20 were taken down by protesters. So we still have a lot to think about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they’re very hard to bring down, aren’t they? Can you talk about that and why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they’re very hard to bring down, aren’t they? Can you talk about that and why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s the law. So in almost all former Confederate states, it’s simply impossible to remove an established public monument. They knew when they were especially putting those laws into place to protect Confederate monuments.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s the law. So in almost all former Confederate states, it’s simply impossible to remove an established public monument. They knew when they were especially putting those laws into place to protect Confederate monuments.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And even in states where there’s not an explicit prohibition, there’s just simply no procedure to follow to ask questions about a monument.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And even in states where there’s not an explicit prohibition, there’s just simply no procedure to follow to ask questions about a monument.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So part of what’s so infuriating about what the president is currently doing is that he’s ignoring all of these laws that future administrations might not be so willing to ignore, and thus it will become — it will be difficult to take down what he’s put up because we’ll be respecting laws that he is not.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So part of what’s so infuriating about what the president is currently doing is that he’s ignoring all of these laws that future administrations might not be so willing to ignore, and thus it will become — it will be difficult to take down what he’s put up because we’ll be respecting laws that he is not.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you tell the story of an Indigenous activist in Minnesota who was trying to get a monument down. Can you talk about that and what ultimately he had to do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you tell the story of an Indigenous activist in Minnesota who was trying to get a monument down. Can you talk about that and what ultimately he had to do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> So Mike Forcia, an Indigenous activist in St. Paul, Minnesota, had been trying for decades, his entire adult life, to question a monument of Christopher Columbus in front of the state capitol. He wanted to know, in this city, which is the largest urban population of Indigenous people in the U.S., why is a man who many blame with great reason for unleashing a genocide honored on the statehouse lawn?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> So Mike Forcia, an Indigenous activist in St. Paul, Minnesota, had been trying for decades, his entire adult life, to question a monument of Christopher Columbus in front of the state capitol. He wanted to know, in this city, which is the largest urban population of Indigenous people in the U.S., why is a man who many blame with great reason for unleashing a genocide honored on the statehouse lawn?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But every time he filed a petition, it essentially ended up thrown away because there was no procedure to question that monument.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So finally, he heard that others were planning to tear down the statue during the middle of the night in August of 2020. And he decided that he was going to go out in the middle of the day, invite people to witness him because he said the monument went up in front of crowds of people and it needed to come down in the same way. And so he took responsibility for tearing down that monument.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So finally, he heard that others were planning to tear down the statue during the middle of the night in August of 2020. And he decided that he was going to go out in the middle of the day, invite people to witness him because he said the monument went up in front of crowds of people and it needed to come down in the same way. And so he took responsibility for tearing down that monument.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, did he face jail time?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, did he face jail time?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> He was charged, and prosecutors agreed to divert his case to a special restorative justice process. So he, instead of going into a court, was put in front of talking circles, they called it, of people who were affected by the removal, but also people who are affected by this statue being there in the first place, and he was sentenced to community service.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> He was charged, and prosecutors agreed to divert his case to a special restorative justice process. So he, instead of going into a court, was put in front of talking circles, they called it, of people who were affected by the removal, but also people who are affected by this statue being there in the first place, and he was sentenced to community service.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of my favorite parts of this case is that he only had a rope from Home Depot that he threw around the statue and tugged it down, but it turns out it came down so easily because no one had bolted it to the pedestal. It was just assumed no one would ever question the erection of Columbus on top of that pedestal, so it was very easy in the end to topple it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one of my favorite parts of this case is that he only had a rope from Home Depot that he threw around the statue and tugged it down, but it turns out it came down so easily because no one had bolted it to the pedestal. It was just assumed no one would ever question the erection of Columbus on top of that pedestal, so it was very easy in the end to topple it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to Sasha in Berkeley next. Sasha, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to Sasha in Berkeley next. Sasha, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Well, I look at this as Humpty Dumpty that we have to put back together again after Trump is gone. And I’m curious why what I’m going to suggest next couldn’t be done.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Well, I look at this as Humpty Dumpty that we have to put back together again after Trump is gone. And I’m curious why what I’m going to suggest next couldn’t be done.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I would take down all the gold in the White House and anywhere else that’s been plastered and melt it down for money we could put into the Treasury. And in terms of the art, take it down and the ballroom — if there is no need for a huge room like that, currently called the ballroom, I would take at least half of it down if the other half is to be made into useful offices or replace, I forget what it was, the East or the West Wing that he tore down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I would take down all the gold in the White House and anywhere else that’s been plastered and melt it down for money we could put into the Treasury. And in terms of the art, take it down and the ballroom — if there is no need for a huge room like that, currently called the ballroom, I would take at least half of it down if the other half is to be made into useful offices or replace, I forget what it was, the East or the West Wing that he tore down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, but the biggest problem is how do we put the government back together again? And I have no answers for that because clearly all of our departments have been stripped of staff, and what have they been replaced for, or what it remains are people with political agendas to destroy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, but the biggest problem is how do we put the government back together again? And I have no answers for that because clearly all of our departments have been stripped of staff, and what have they been replaced for, or what it remains are people with political agendas to destroy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Sasha, thanks for weighing in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Sasha, thanks for weighing in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> I’m curious about whether we can melt it all down or not.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> I’m curious about whether we can melt it all down or not.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we were hearing from Erin, you know, just what kinds of potential consequences you could face for that. I don’t know if you want to add anything to Sasha’s point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we were hearing from Erin, you know, just what kinds of potential consequences you could face for that. I don’t know if you want to add anything to Sasha’s point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll just say that I think that a lot of the stuff that got stuck up around the White House might not be actual gold, so melting it down might produce a lot of plastic fumes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll just say that I think that a lot of the stuff that got stuck up around the White House might not be actual gold, so melting it down might produce a lot of plastic fumes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was a suspicion. Let me go to David in Indiana next. David, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was a suspicion. Let me go to David in Indiana next. David, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David:\u003c/strong> Well, since, uh… arches tend to commemorate something specific, and one of the biggest, if not the biggest, concern of Americans right now is affordability, maybe it should be named the Arch of Affordability, the Triumph of Affordability, or at least nicknamed that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David:\u003c/strong> Well, since, uh… arches tend to commemorate something specific, and one of the biggest, if not the biggest, concern of Americans right now is affordability, maybe it should be named the Arch of Affordability, the Triumph of Affordability, or at least nicknamed that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, David, thanks. Yeah, if you can’t take it down, maybe you just reimagine and reconstitute its purpose. That could be one way to handle it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, David, thanks. Yeah, if you can’t take it down, maybe you just reimagine and reconstitute its purpose. That could be one way to handle it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So RJ writes, “How can judges be so gullible and not see through claims that these projects are for national security?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So RJ writes, “How can judges be so gullible and not see through claims that these projects are for national security?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wanna ask you about this, Tom. What is the status of the legal challenge, right? What can you tell us about the arch in particular?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wanna ask you about this, Tom. What is the status of the legal challenge, right? What can you tell us about the arch in particular?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, there are lawsuits pending, but to your listener’s point, it’s not that judges are gullible. It’s that they don’t think they have the power to contradict the executive on what constitutes national security, which is why this keeps getting kicked up further and further because there are some judges that say, okay, fine, I’m not buying that argument.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, there are lawsuits pending, but to your listener’s point, it’s not that judges are gullible. It’s that they don’t think they have the power to contradict the executive on what constitutes national security, which is why this keeps getting kicked up further and further because there are some judges that say, okay, fine, I’m not buying that argument.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, precedence, precedent and history tend to be on the side of presidents when they say national security. The courts basically say someone besides us has to adjudicate what the answer — usually be in Congress, since we don’t actually have a function in Congress right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, precedence, precedent and history tend to be on the side of presidents when they say national security. The courts basically say someone besides us has to adjudicate what the answer — usually be in Congress, since we don’t actually have a function in Congress right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s not that the judges are gullible, it’s that I think some of them feel that their hands are tied.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it’s not that the judges are gullible, it’s that I think some of them feel that their hands are tied.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I wanted to make, if I could, I just wanna make a quick note about what monuments are for, because Erin’s point is very important. But I think it depends on where you live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I wanted to make, if I could, I just wanna make a quick note about what monuments are for, because Erin’s point is very important. But I think it depends on where you live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I lived and worked in Boston for years. And monuments can also be really important reminders about what’s good in us and what we should remember about ourselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I lived and worked in Boston for years. And monuments can also be really important reminders about what’s good in us and what we should remember about ourselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you walked from my old office in the State House on Beacon Hill, all the way down through the garden and the Boston Common and the Public Garden, you would pass a plaque, a sculpture dedicated to Robert Gould Shaw, for example, the commander of the Massachusetts 54th, the first Black Army unit. You go further down, you pass statues of abolitionists. You walk out of the Public Garden under the gaze of George Washington.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you walked from my old office in the State House on Beacon Hill, all the way down through the garden and the Boston Common and the Public Garden, you would pass a plaque, a sculpture dedicated to Robert Gould Shaw, for example, the commander of the Massachusetts 54th, the first Black Army unit. You go further down, you pass statues of abolitionists. You walk out of the Public Garden under the gaze of George Washington.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The problem is that Donald Trump is cheapening our notion of what a memorial is by taking them and basically admitting, as he did — he was interviewed last summer and basically someone said, are you putting these up because they’re afraid they won’t put them up for you when you’re gone? And he said, yeah, this is what I want. And no one will do this once I’m gone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The problem is that Donald Trump is cheapening our notion of what a memorial is by taking them and basically admitting, as he did — he was interviewed last summer and basically someone said, are you putting these up because they’re afraid they won’t put them up for you when you’re gone? And he said, yeah, this is what I want. And no one will do this once I’m gone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, in a democracy, if you’re saying, I want to put these up because no one wants them but me, that’s a really kind of revealing and dysfunctional thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, in a democracy, if you’re saying, I want to put these up because no one wants them but me, that’s a really kind of revealing and dysfunctional thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So yes, it’s true that memorials can be these awful attempts to intimidate people. Trump’s efforts, by the way, remind me not of — although I think Colosseum is a great example — I spent a lot of time in the old Soviet Union, and his projects remind me of these outsized Soviet war memorials that were everywhere in Moscow and Leningrad and Kiev and other places in the Old Soviet Union.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So yes, it’s true that memorials can be these awful attempts to intimidate people. Trump’s efforts, by the way, remind me not of — although I think Colosseum is a great example — I spent a lot of time in the old Soviet Union, and his projects remind me of these outsized Soviet war memorials that were everywhere in Moscow and Leningrad and Kiev and other places in the Old Soviet Union.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s just not the kind of country we are, but that doesn’t mean that we should forget how memorials can really inspire us and make us better people just by seeing them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>That’s just not the kind of country we are, but that doesn’t mean that we should forget how memorials can really inspire us and make us better people just by seeing them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Barbara writes, “Trump builds these illegal monuments to himself because he knows others will not. They need to be torn down at the earliest opportunity. We cannot let these un-American monuments to a cruel, lawless, corrupt leader stand. Symbols matter.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Barbara writes, “Trump builds these illegal monuments to himself because he knows others will not. They need to be torn down at the earliest opportunity. We cannot let these un-American monuments to a cruel, lawless, corrupt leader stand. Symbols matter.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners, you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners, you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What do you think — and I know I’m asking you to sort of get into the mind, but I imagine, Erin, you have some thoughts on this. Is the simplistic message he wants to send with these monuments to himself — what do you think he’s hoping people will associate with him? Wealth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What do you think — and I know I’m asking you to sort of get into the mind, but I imagine, Erin, you have some thoughts on this. Is the simplistic message he wants to send with these monuments to himself — what do you think he’s hoping people will associate with him? Wealth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Our goodness. Yeah, it’s not too complicated, I think. And it has been the same in monuments throughout time. Bigger is better, is permanent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Our goodness. Yeah, it’s not too complicated, I think. And it has been the same in monuments throughout time. Bigger is better, is permanent.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it’s interesting that we do tend to think of monuments as permanent, but they really aren’t. America is very strange in that we’ve had the same set of monuments for so long, but almost every other culture, country in the world has seen waves of monuments go up and down every time power changes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think it’s interesting that we do tend to think of monuments as permanent, but they really aren’t. America is very strange in that we’ve had the same set of monuments for so long, but almost every other culture, country in the world has seen waves of monuments go up and down every time power changes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So yeah, I think we should get used to the idea, thinking of our monuments as lovely but temporary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So yeah, I think we should get used to the idea, thinking of our monuments as lovely but temporary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think we think of them as so permanent just because of the way that they’re built, and like marble and stone. Yeah, that’s just — that’s why they’re so big, you can’t ignore them. Yeah, and you have to look up at them and so on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think we think of them as so permanent just because of the way that they’re built, and like marble and stone. Yeah, that’s just — that’s why they’re so big, you can’t ignore them. Yeah, and you have to look up at them and so on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, in the short term, can it serve the political purpose of distraction, say, from the things that he hasn’t been able to keep his promises on in this particular presidency? Erin or Tom. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, in the short term, can it serve the political purpose of distraction, say, from the things that he hasn’t been able to keep his promises on in this particular presidency? Erin or Tom. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, sorry. Yes, but I think it’s backfiring in the way that we discussed earlier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, sorry. Yes, but I think it’s backfiring in the way that we discussed earlier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If we were winning the war in Iran, and we are not, you could almost see people making an argument to say, well, we’ve toppled a terrible regime. We’ve been at each other’s throats for nearly a half century. And the people of Iran are going to be free. And who? You know, whatever argument you want to make, and therefore we should put up something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If we were winning the war in Iran, and we are not, you could almost see people making an argument to say, well, we’ve toppled a terrible regime. We’ve been at each other’s throats for nearly a half century. And the people of Iran are going to be free. And who? You know, whatever argument you want to make, and therefore we should put up something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The problem is that everything that he would want to commemorate, including himself — I mean, who puts up a monument to himself when he’s at 30%? You know, that’s the kind of, I suppose, grim and laughable part of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The problem is that everything that he would want to commemorate, including himself — I mean, who puts up a monument to himself when he’s at 30%? You know, that’s the kind of, I suppose, grim and laughable part of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He’s losing war, the economy is tumbling off the rails, his party is about to be clobbered. Um, you know, in, in, um, at least by all indications that we can see so far, his party’s going to get obliterated in the midterms. His — he’s at historic, he’s reaching, he has fallen below, uh, what our friend Sarah Longwell calls the Bush line, the George W. Bush line. And he’s now heading for Nixon territory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He’s losing war, the economy is tumbling off the rails, his party is about to be clobbered. Um, you know, in, in, um, at least by all indications that we can see so far, his party’s going to get obliterated in the midterms. His — he’s at historic, he’s reaching, he has fallen below, uh, what our friend Sarah Longwell calls the Bush line, the George W. Bush line. And he’s now heading for Nixon territory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you know who’s, who’s response to that is to say, you don’t — we need a memorial, a statue, a ballroom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And you know who’s, who’s response to that is to say, you don’t — we need a memorial, a statue, a ballroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, and I think that’s the kind of shock that hits people. If things were going well, you would have a lot of people defending this or at least ignoring it. And instead he’s doing this at a time that I think a lot of ordinary Americans who don’t usually pay a lot of attention to the news are getting home from the grocery store and saying, you know, you’ve got to be kidding me. Well, what is this about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, and I think that’s the kind of shock that hits people. If things were going well, you would have a lot of people defending this or at least ignoring it. And instead he’s doing this at a time that I think a lot of ordinary Americans who don’t usually pay a lot of attention to the news are getting home from the grocery store and saying, you know, you’ve got to be kidding me. Well, what is this about?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it is breaking through.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Gregory in Oakland writes, “I appreciate the point that it’s not just the system, but also the people who keep enabling this behavior from our leaders. These projects ultimately distract us from issues that matter even more.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Gregory in Oakland writes, “I appreciate the point that it’s not just the system, but also the people who keep enabling this behavior from our leaders. These projects ultimately distract us from issues that matter even more.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Trish writes, “He knows that nobody is going to honor him in such a grand manner once he’s out of the picture. So he has to honor himself given the atrocities that he and his administration have perpetrated upon the nation and the world. I suspect that one day there will be a move to tear down all of his creations just as we are doing nowadays for those who have been revealed for their atrocities.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Trish writes, “He knows that nobody is going to honor him in such a grand manner once he’s out of the picture. So he has to honor himself given the atrocities that he and his administration have perpetrated upon the nation and the world. I suspect that one day there will be a move to tear down all of his creations just as we are doing nowadays for those who have been revealed for their atrocities.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Trump’s name has been taken down for now from the Kennedy Center. Tom, can you just remind us of the status of all that? Because I know you’ve also recently reported on it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Trump’s name has been taken down for now from the Kennedy Center. Tom, can you just remind us of the status of all that? Because I know you’ve also recently reported on it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, this is, I mean, I think another place where people are starting to pay attention in a way that they didn’t before is looking at him and saying, with all the things going on in the world, he’s fixated on this, that he has to have his name next to Jack Kennedy for some reason, you know, in a city.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, this is, I mean, I think another place where people are starting to pay attention in a way that they didn’t before is looking at him and saying, with all the things going on in the world, he’s fixated on this, that he has to have his name next to Jack Kennedy for some reason, you know, in a city.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think we should also stipulate here what George — excuse me, Donald Trump hates Washington. I mean, it’s not a city where he is popular. He doesn’t like it there. When he first came to — in his first term, he actually tried to figure out if he could govern the country from New York instead of having to move to Washington.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think we should also stipulate here what George — excuse me, Donald Trump hates Washington. I mean, it’s not a city where he is popular. He doesn’t like it there. When he first came to — in his first term, he actually tried to figure out if he could govern the country from New York instead of having to move to Washington.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the city kind of hates him back. I mean, he is tremendously unpopular there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the city kind of hates him back. I mean, he is tremendously unpopular there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So he’s been trying to get this done. The courts have told him that he cannot put his name on it. Then he said, well, if I renovate it — well, can we put a big plaque? This is all done through his trustees, by the way, who are all basically his cronies. If I renovate it, can you put a plaque on it that said, renovated by the Trump Kennedy Center Foundation or some damn thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So he’s been trying to get this done. The courts have told him that he cannot put his name on it. Then he said, well, if I renovate it — well, can we put a big plaque? This is all done through his trustees, by the way, who are all basically his cronies. If I renovate it, can you put a plaque on it that said, renovated by the Trump Kennedy Center Foundation or some damn thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the courts again said, nice try, very funny, but no.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the courts again said, nice try, very funny, but no.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so now the trustees have said, well, if we can’t rename it and the president won’t help us fundraise to rebuild it, we’re going to have to tear it down. Which was Trump event, essentially. I wrote a piece about it saying this is basically blackmail. This is the Dane-geld, as Kipling called it. He wants a payoff, he wants his name on it, or he’s going to destroy this beloved national icon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so now the trustees have said, well, if we can’t rename it and the president won’t help us fundraise to rebuild it, we’re going to have to tear it down. Which was Trump event, essentially. I wrote a piece about it saying this is basically blackmail. This is the Dane-geld, as Kipling called it. He wants a payoff, he wants his name on it, or he’s going to destroy this beloved national icon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And my argument is that we ought to let him. I think in full view of the American people, if this is who he is and the kind of administration he’s running, then I think Americans ought to see the John F. Kennedy Center torn down because the president had a temper tantrum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And my argument is that we ought to let him. I think in full view of the American people, if this is who he is and the kind of administration he’s running, then I think Americans ought to see the John F. Kennedy Center torn down because the president had a temper tantrum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that’s where it stands now. He can’t get his name on it. The courts have stopped him at every turn, and his threat now is, it’s so decrepit that without my money, you know, without me raising money, it’ll have to be torn down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that’s where it stands now. He can’t get his name on it. The courts have stopped him at every turn, and his threat now is, it’s so decrepit that without my money, you know, without me raising money, it’ll have to be torn down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, as we’ve talked about, this issue with the monuments is very much a metaphor for his presidency. Thanks for digging through it with us. Tom Nichols of \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> and Erin Thompson of City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and also thank you for doing that with us, our listeners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, as we’ve talked about, this issue with the monuments is very much a metaphor for his presidency. Thanks for digging through it with us. Tom Nichols of \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> and Erin Thompson of City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and also thank you for doing that with us, our listeners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And my thanks as well for Ana de Amaral for producing this segment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, September 24, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From the White House ballroom to the Kennedy Center to a proposed triumphal arch along the Potomac, President Trump has taken a special interest in creating physical markers of his legacy. We’ll look at how he’s largely escaped oversight, including by designating these projects as central to national security. Why are monuments such a priority for Trump, and what does this tell us about the growing reach of executive power?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols,\u003c/strong> staff writer, The Atlantic, professor emeritus of national security affairs, U.S. Naval War College\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson\u003c/strong>, professor of art crime, CUNY, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues: The Rise and Fall of America’s Public Monuments\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Of all the things the president has on his plate — the war in Iran, high fuel and food prices, steep potential losses for his party in the midterms — what seems to animate Trump the most are his building projects. The latest announcement this week is that his proposed triumphal arch on D.C.’s Memorial Circle will now be a military complex, complete with snipers and drones for national security reasons. And for all the skepticism and unpopularity of the idea, it continues to move forward for now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This hour, we look at how Trump’s construction projects are changing the landscape and the reach of executive power and the role of monuments in shaping a collective narrative. Starting us off is Tom Nichols, whose latest piece for \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> is called “Trump’s Monumental Obsession.” Good to have you back, Tom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So first, talk about why the idea of militarizing the arch has drawn fresh skepticism and pushback from not only you, but retired generals, preservationists, others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Because it’s crazy. You’re talking about putting an arch in the middle of a busy traffic circle, and anybody who’s ever been to Washington has probably experienced that particular area between the cemetery and the Lincoln Memorial and downtown D.C. And the idea of filling it with weapons while cars sit in traffic around it every day. And airplanes, by the way, this is another problem, as airplanes fly over it because it’s right in the approach path for Reagan National Airport. It’s a stupid and dangerous idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I also don’t think that the president is serious about it. He’s saying this because he knows that national security arguments tend to prevail in court, as he did with the ballroom. When people sued to stop him from demolishing the East Wing and building the ballroom, some of his opponents won in court and there was a tussle back and forth. Then Trump said, no, this is a national security project. It’s to build a bunker and an operation center, and the ballroom is just a kind of a hat we’re putting on top of that national security stuff. The courts bought it. Supreme Court, all the way down, you know. Well, you know, the president gets his way on national security issues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did the courts buy it? What does recasting the building project as military infrastructure and therefore a national security asset, right, help Trump do with the courts and with Congress as well?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> The courts have always — I should say always since the end of World War II, since the Cold War, when national security became a thing, became a phrase. You know, before World War Two, very rare to actually see the phrase “national security” used anywhere. And during the Cold War, we created a national security state and we prioritized national security above a lot of things, including civil liberties. And we did it again after 9/11.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when presidents invoke national security, courts kind of wrap that under the president’s Article II powers. And they become very hesitant to interfere with that because they don’t want to interfere with what they think is the president’s legitimate sphere of competence and power on that issue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s become a thing where presidents, not just Donald Trump, but presidents in the past, have said, well, to get through a policy I really want to get to, matter of national security. And that’s kind of meant to snuff out debate about whether the thing involved is actually important or worth the money or even legal. So that’s why it happens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> This does also undermine Congress’s authority to constrain it at all in a substantive way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it always has. I mean, the national security argument has always been part of the shift, the migration in power from Congress to an imperial presidency. Presidents over the course of the Cold War and then during the war on terror, executive power has expanded vastly beyond what I think the founders envisioned in the Constitution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the president has become, you know, the vicar of national security, and it’s a very effective argument to make. And sometimes, you know — let’s be fair about this — sometimes it’s a legitimate argument. There are things that the executive branch has to do in the name of national security, like build bunkers under the White House.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when that gets applied to things like tariffs, for example, you know, Trump at one point claimed that tariffs were a matter of national security. Pretty soon everything becomes a matter of national security because presidents, and this president in particular, just like the fact that it sort of, you know, just kind of shuts down opposition and legal challenges to whatever it is he wants to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. I mean, Trump argued that the ban on CNN, MS NOW, and Politico from White House grounds was because they were a threat to our national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about President Trump’s militarized arch? You know, why do you think these construction projects are so important to the president? Do these things bother you? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or by calling 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those are on Discord, right? “Trump’s building projects are a frustrating waste of money and grotesque display of ego. But honestly, I prioritize his D.C. monuments pretty low compared to other damage he’s doing to the country and world. Everything built can be disassembled.” Do you think that? The types of things he’s building now could easily be disassembled?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I think some of them can be. I personally, as a former Washington resident — I should say a former suburban resident. I used to work on the Hill and spent my graduate years at Georgetown and all that. I think that these are atrocious and garish projects, and I would happily support any president who says the ballroom’s got to go and we’re going to rebuild the East Wing and not put up an armed platform in the middle of, in front of Arlington Cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has proven one thing, that if you can put these things up through sheer willpower, a president can take them down through sheer willpower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think your listener, I agree with your listener who said, hey, this isn’t the biggest problem in the world except for two things, I would say. One is that Donald Trump is establishing that presidents can just spend money at will simply by chanting “national security” over even trivial and dumb things, like putting up this kind of, you know, bit of militaristic bombast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I referred to the victory arch that he wants to put up as something that looks like it was found in the bottom desk drawer of, you know, Albert Speer’s desk. And it’s just ugly. But he can just build it because he’s — national security, and he snaps his fingers and people start digging.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So once you establish that, you’re setting a lot of bad precedents here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other is that I think symbolism matters. I think, I think, you know, the president, the White House in particular, is meant to be dignified and austere, but not bombastic and overwhelming. And I think it’s an affront to the culture of democracy to put up a Tsarist ballroom that would make a King Louis of France blush in the middle of the place that’s meant to be the people’s house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I, while it’s not the most important thing in the world, it’s more important than it may seem.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I know. And also I think in the context of all the other things that are happening in the country, as you point out in your piece and as I mentioned in the intro, I think it’s concerning to have that be the main focus of the president. Is there any chance at all that because he noted that it was at the military’s request, is there a chance at all, as someone who knows the military well, that he would have found people in the military to say, yes, this is something that could be meaningful for national security?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I would — this again, my personal view here is that I will file that under things that didn’t happen. He may well have turned to Pete Hegseth and said, Pete, maybe we should build a big arch. And he said, good idea, sir. And that was the source of saying the military has asked for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I cannot imagine that, you know, anybody in the uniformed military was sitting around and saying, hey, you know what would really improve that arch? Snipers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is it possible in this administration? Again, he may have turned to some hapless colonel and said, Colonel, you think that’s a good idea, right? And the guy’s going to say, oh, whatever you think, Mr. President.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I just don’t believe that people walked into his office and said, Mr. President, you got to build this armed platform right next to Reagan National. Uh… Because, you know, it’s a matter of national security. I, I just — it can — I could be wrong, but I just don’t believe that happened.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You noted costs as well. Do you know who is paying for these monuments and what kind of cost we are looking at, or maybe costs across things like the arch and the ballroom?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry. Are you insisting on transparency and how millions of dollars are being spent in Washington? That sounds like communism. I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s another part of this problem. I mean, the president changes stories every other day on — you saw this with the ballroom. Well, it’s only going to cost this much and we’re going to get donations and it’s not going to be a big deal. And then the costs balloon and then it turns out we are using government money. Don’t hurt! But again, only for national security, because there’s going to be a thing under it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the end, the president — this is a personalized cult of personality regime inside the White House, where the president says, I want a victory arch. And a bunch of people look at each other and say, well, yes, okay. And we’ll figure out who’s paying for it and how all that’s going to happen later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if we had a Congress that cared about oversight… You would know. But because this Congress currently is controlled by a Republican majority that is mostly terrified of Trump because nobody wants to end up, you know, primaried like John Cornyn or, you know, Cassidy or Tom Tillis or any of these people that are leaving, they simply kind of keep their head down and they’re just waiting for this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s been almost 10 years of some Republicans just waiting this to blow over, but obviously it’s not gonna blow over. And Trump’s gonna spend this money and nobody’s gonna really ask why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with \u003cem>Atlantic\u003c/em> staff writer Tom Nichols about Trump’s triumphal arch and his special interest in creating physical markers of his legacy and why neither Congress nor the courts right now have been able to end these projects, especially when the administration cites national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Mina Kim. Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s triumphal arch, the White House ballroom, and other building projects that have drawn the president’s attention and how these construction projects are extending the reach of executive power, even if on the face of them they don’t seem as much of an issue for the country as, say, things like the war in Iran and high fuel and food prices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about this with Tom Nichols. With you, our listeners, join the conversation by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What questions do you have about the president’s efforts to push building projects through D.C.? Why do you think he wants to do this? And do they bother you? Why or why not? How do you think these projects will inform how we remember President Trump?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me go to caller Susan in Marin. Hi, Susan. Go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan:\u003c/strong> I think, uh… I hold Congress as responsible for the ballroom as I hold Trump. Uh… They’re the part of our government that’s supposed to be able to spend money, and the fact that they’re allowing him to take money out of, uh… common bank is just, it just makes me furious. They’ve done nothing for an awful long time, and this is nothing that is going to cost us millions and millions and billions of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing how you feel about this, Susan. Let me go to Colin next in San Francisco. Colin, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Colin:\u003c/strong> Good morning. I’m not as concerned about the proposed, um, victory arch or Arc de Triomphe, whatever we want to call it, because it’s very unlikely that it will be completed within Trump’s lifetime. It’s likely going to be abandoned just as soon as he’s out of office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The original Arc de Triomphe took about 30 years from, uh, inception under Napoleon Bonaparte to completion in 1836. Um, it’s also my, you know, it could jinx this country too. You know, after the Arch of Triumph was built, the Germans were able to stage two victory parades in 1871 and 1940 under or by the arch.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, thanks for sharing where you’re at and what you think in terms of jinxing. That’s an interesting point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to bring Erin Thompson into the conversation now, professor of art crime at City University, New York, and also the author of the book \u003cem>Smashing Statues: The Rise and Fall of America’s Public Monuments\u003c/em>. Erin, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So stepping back a bit, you know, help us understand the power of monuments as people sort of grapple with how significant this moment is with regards to Trump. How could they affect us generally, the public?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, monuments are really about capturing the future. They’re about shaping the memory of the past. So I think it will be very difficult to get rid of any monuments, really, but Trump’s monuments in particular, and they’re going to keep shaping what we value about America. So it…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that you say they have that type of power because they feel, you know, sort of very limiting in some ways of sending a message. Can you talk about how or where their power lies? I guess maybe even in their simplicity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Monuments don’t actually teach history. There’s not enough space for that. They just tell us who should you literally look up to, who is large, who should be honored and hold power.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Say there’s a certain power in the way we sort of get used to them, how they fade into the background. How so?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, their power is in their boringness. We accept them, we take them for granted. Something like 90% of the public monuments in the U.S. honor white men, for example. So that constant message about who deserves to hold power in the U.S., I think, has a continuing effect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Tom, you know, Trump was quoted as saying, out of the 59 top cities and capitals, Washington, D.C. is the only one in the world that does not have a triumphal arch. And you were noting earlier, you that sort of Americans have a certain dislike of those kinds of things, or generally does not do this in our capitals for, for good reason. What are those reasons?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, for one, we tend to celebrate the citizen soldier, the people among us who fought and died, which is why our war memorials, especially in the modern era, tend to be more muted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You do have some big monuments that came after the Civil War to the Union. There’s one in New York, there’s actually very few of them in Boston, but a lot of statues. But by and large, Americans view going to war as something they’ve been dragged into. One of my late colleagues used to call it the avenging angel syndrome that, well, you know, by God, we didn’t start this thing, but we’ll get in there and finish it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we kind of come home and realize that, you know, war takes a toll on a democracy. So we don’t build these Napoleonic arches. We don’t build these, you know, Germany, these these kind of Nazi, you know, winged angels or Soviet, you know, the big Soviet Mother of Russia with the sword and the shield and all that stuff. We were just not that kind of culture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when Trump says, you know, we’re the only country in the world that doesn’t have one of these things, that’s, I think, the right answer to that is that’s right. And that’s good. And that one of the things that’s good about America, that we don’t do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Trump is very much — you can see it in his taste, which is vulgar and deeply affected by the grandeur that he sees in other cities. And he thinks that this makes America and him somehow less of a player, less majestic on the world scene not to have one of these big arteries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I always think of what your caller, your most recent caller, said. You know, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris has been a mixed blessing. It was meant to honor the French victory in the Battle of Austerlitz in a war that eventually Napoleon lost and ended up exiled and dead for conducting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So maybe it’s not a good thing to put these things up. Maybe things like the Vietnam Memorial, the World War II Memorial, and others are much more thoughtful and much more in line with the American character.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think listener Eric would agree with you in terms of taste. Eric writes, “Trump uses emergency when there is none. He breaks the law faster than the law can apply remedies. Also, he has horrible taste in design.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erin, I understand you recently visited D.C. and tried to visit many of the locations that President Trump is trying to change or build. What did you notice about the aesthetic?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, first that they’re even worse in person. So the $5 million have recently been spent on re-gilding four statues on the Arlington Memorial Bridge between the Lincoln Memorial and Arlington Cemetery. And they now look like they should be unwrapped and have chocolate inside. They’re so shiny and ridiculous looking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was also a no-bid contract, his favorite form of using government money. But much more disturbing to me was the fact that so little was visible. There is a giant fence around the White House and Lafayette Park, which is a public space, preventing you from seeing where the East Wing used to be, where the construction is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I agree in a way that monuments are not the most important things, but I think they’re the gilded canary in the coal mine. And if he’s able to hide what he’s doing with these construction projects, what else is he not telling us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to caller Charlotte next in Menlo Park. Charlotte, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charlotte:\u003c/strong> Yes, hi. Thank you so much for the program. Uh… I’ve wanted to just chime in about it, actually, just that that’s what, uh… And she said just now about the White House. I have very strong feelings of love of the monuments of Washington, D.C., and, uh… I am wondering, can people actually still fit at the White House the way that they could before, or what it — what is the policy? Is it — has it changed? Are people banned from even visiting anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm, Erin?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Charlotte. I think it’s been greatly reduced. It is still, in theory, available, but Lafayette Park, for example, which is a popular pedestrian place to see the White House, is now closed more and more frequently. And the Trump administration has just proposed putting up a permanent fence to replace the janky-looking tarp construction they’ve got happening now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Erin, what do you think is the overall message of this? We did a show on aesthetics in the past when Trump was sort of adorning the Oval Office with gold and so on. So this combination of sort of a gilded and what I think you’re describing feels like a gilded fortress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And another reason that D.C. hasn’t had a triumphal arch is that those arches celebrate a single leader. That’s not democracy. It’s a little less aesthetically unified to have monuments celebrating a whole host of people, but that’s what we need to do in a democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What the redesign of D.C. is doing is suggesting to visitors for potentially generations to come that power should be and is concentrated in the hands of the few or even one person, and that wealth should be the requirement of power. Whereas that is something that since the very beginnings of official congressional, national, federal arts has been fought against.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think this on Discord is echoing some of your points. The listener writes, “This is a symptom of a weak and vulnerable form of government that can be so easily taken over by one person. One person has corrupted all three branches of government. The power and self-interest of those around him have allowed Trump to seemingly do whatever he wants without meaningful challenges or accountability. He doesn’t ask permission. His reign ends in two years. But what does this say about the future of democracy?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tom, do you want to weigh in on that too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think people should beware talking about the flaws of the system when what we’re really talking about are the flaws in the American people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James Madison warned us during the debate on ratifying the Constitution. He was asked, you know, will these checks and balances really work? Are these institutions that you’re asking us here in Virginia — it was during the debate in Virginia — are these, you know, institutions really going to protect us in the you’re promising?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Madison, I think with a certain amount of exasperation, said, none of these things work if we are not decent people. The way he put it, he said, “Is there no virtue among us? If not, then we are in a wretched situation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That, I think, is part of what’s happening. The problem is not the design of the system, it’s not the Constitution or the branches of government. It’s that you have tens of millions of people who think this is okay, and some of them even think it’s more than okay. They like it, and they vote for it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a problem with our society, that there’s a kind of decadence on we that’s overtaken our society where millions of people just shrug and say, well, he’s going to build a ballroom. What are you going to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that in an earlier time — and when I say earlier, I don’t mean 100 years ago, I mean like 20 years ago, 15 years ago — any one of these things would have been the source of a huge outcry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think Donald Trump has, by firehosing us with these crazy projects and ideas and wars and other things that he’s been doing, has just kind of worn people down into numbness to say, well, I guess we’re going to build this drone platform with a big winged victory statue on it. And what can we do about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s in part, again, because of the cowardice of his party, which now depends — the elected officials of his party depend on surviving primary challenges in which maybe 15 or 20% of the party votes. And that very small number of people has basically put a stranglehold on a party and on the legislature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, hopefully that can change if people get mad enough and vote. But I guess I would just caution everyone against saying, well, somehow the design of this system is flawed. This system was never meant to work if people did not have some kind of civic affection and involvement in it. And that, I think, is the source of our real problem here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Interestingly, you know, we had Sarah Longwell on not that long ago, and she seemed to think that this issue may actually be breaking through with some of his voters, just because the contrast is so stark, Tom, between Americans struggling, right, with economic pressures from the war, very much as a result of the war that he started, and these gilded statues and arches that he seems very fixated on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you see that as actually being a place where maybe there will be pushback by the very electorate that has voted him in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I think you’re seeing that happen. I mean, for Donald Trump to be hovering now around 30, 32% popularity is really quite remarkable considering that he came back into office. I won a discontinuous election and managed to ride back into office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sarah, I think Sarah’s right about this, and she of course is the one who has sat with hundreds of focus groups to hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think what breaks through is not necessarily the monuments as an issue per se. I don’t think anybody’s gonna get out there and vote and say, you know, I really don’t like this ballroom. But they’re standing there at the gas pump saying, you know, I’m paying four and a half bucks, or if you’re a farmer or trucker or something, you say, I’m payin’ you know six and a huff bucks for diesel, and this guy is running around like Goldfinger, you know, painting everything in gold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Who’s thinking about me, and why is he putting up gold statues and sticking gold appliques on everything when I can’t afford to keep filling my car to take my kids to school?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that has broken through. I think it’s been a really important part of the nosedive in his popularity. He really does come across as a callous, uncaring king who basically tells the people to eat cake and that expensive gas is a small price to pay for having a great president like him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Lorraine writes, “The expense of all these projects is deeply offensive in view that he tore healthcare away from millions of Americans through his big ugly bill.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erin, can you think of a historical analog as well of a leader fixated on building monuments in the face of much more pressing problems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, and I just want to say, too, that thousands of people came out last weekend to protest his threats to close the Kennedy Center. So he’s attacking what people love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And yeah, looking at Trump’s actions now made me think of the Colosseum. Right? In Rome, it’s named the Coliseum after the Colossus, a gigantic statue that stood beside it that was — he was one of the worst rulers of all history and was obsessed with trying to beautify Rome because he saw what was coming. He wanted to fix his reputation and it did not work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He fiddled while Rome burned, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Erin Thompson, Professor of Art Crime at City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and Tom Nichols, staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, about Trump’s focus on monuments and monuments, in many ways, to himself, the difficulties in curbing those actions by Congress and the courts, at least as they’re currently constituted, and what broader impact that has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can join the conversation, listeners, with your questions about his recent announcement of the militarized arch, which Tom Nichols wrote about, and also just how you feel about these construction projects. Do they matter to you? Do they bother you? Why or why not? What kinds of messages do you think they will send? And what would you like to see happen to them going forward, especially after the president’s presidency?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Lorraine also writes, “Trump thinks that by splashing gold everywhere projects an image of wealth and power. The truth is an excess of gold makes those things look tawdry and cheap. As for the victory arch, where’s the victory? I hope I’m wrong, but the bunker under the ballroom combined with the militarization of the art paints a picture of a man who’s preparing to dig in after the 2028 election, if things don’t go his way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Trump’s building projects, his monument, which he did say, in fact, that the triumphal arch early when he was announcing it was in honor of him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Trump’s Monumental Obsession” is the piece by Tom Nichols, our guest today, a staff writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em>, and Erin Thompson is author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em> and professor of art crime at City University in New York.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, you’re joining the conversation with your questions about President Trump’s building projects, why you think he’s doing them and whether or not they bother you and why. 866-733-6786, the number. Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram is where you can post your comments. You can also email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this listener on Discord writes, “What about this spending in the context of the total national debt? After all, DOGE’s purpose was to cut spending, right? How can the spending on these monuments be reconciled with that purpose?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Erin, we talked with Tom earlier about whether or not we really have a good sense of how much these projects are costing. I mean, Trump once promised to finance the building of his own giant ballroom himself or with private donors as well. And I was struck by how you have noted that actually often the kinds of monuments we see across this country are not put up by state or federal governments, that they’re actually put up…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> By private donors? Yes, we think of them as public monuments, but they’re not public in that the public has any say into what they look like or where they go or whether they should come down. Public monuments are usually only put up by those with enough power to find a place for them and enough money to pay for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So what does that then mean with regard to, you know, who gets to deliver whatever message they’re trying to deliver, as you were saying earlier, a monument does?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> The history of monuments in the U.S. shows, at least I argue in my book, that they’re often meant to show the rest of us our place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for example, a lot of Confederate memorials went up not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, but in the 20th century and were often associated with interracial unionization efforts. So if people started to threaten to strike, a monument would be put up by, say, the mine owners or the factory owners to remind white workers, don’t cross the color line, to ally yourself with your fellow workers. You need to respect the work of your Confederate forefathers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think that the autocratic monuments we’re seeing today are also meant to remind us as voters, as citizens, you know, just sit tight. Let the elite make the decisions for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> After the murder of George Floyd, though, suddenly all over the country, you start seeing monuments being taken down or graffitied. Why do you think that happened?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s the power of monuments to make concrete intangible ideas about justice, equality, et cetera. So they were places to rally ourselves, to think about, to protest inequality and power. And they were in the news a lot, but only about 200 monuments left their pedestals after the murder of George Floyd, which is far, far less than 1% of the public monuments in the U.S., something like a tenth of a percent. And many of those were removed by official actions; only about 20 were taken down by protesters. So we still have a lot to think about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they’re very hard to bring down, aren’t they? Can you talk about that and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s the law. So in almost all former Confederate states, it’s simply impossible to remove an established public monument. They knew when they were especially putting those laws into place to protect Confederate monuments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And even in states where there’s not an explicit prohibition, there’s just simply no procedure to follow to ask questions about a monument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So part of what’s so infuriating about what the president is currently doing is that he’s ignoring all of these laws that future administrations might not be so willing to ignore, and thus it will become — it will be difficult to take down what he’s put up because we’ll be respecting laws that he is not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you tell the story of an Indigenous activist in Minnesota who was trying to get a monument down. Can you talk about that and what ultimately he had to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> So Mike Forcia, an Indigenous activist in St. Paul, Minnesota, had been trying for decades, his entire adult life, to question a monument of Christopher Columbus in front of the state capitol. He wanted to know, in this city, which is the largest urban population of Indigenous people in the U.S., why is a man who many blame with great reason for unleashing a genocide honored on the statehouse lawn?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But every time he filed a petition, it essentially ended up thrown away because there was no procedure to question that monument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So finally, he heard that others were planning to tear down the statue during the middle of the night in August of 2020. And he decided that he was going to go out in the middle of the day, invite people to witness him because he said the monument went up in front of crowds of people and it needed to come down in the same way. And so he took responsibility for tearing down that monument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, did he face jail time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> He was charged, and prosecutors agreed to divert his case to a special restorative justice process. So he, instead of going into a court, was put in front of talking circles, they called it, of people who were affected by the removal, but also people who are affected by this statue being there in the first place, and he was sentenced to community service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of my favorite parts of this case is that he only had a rope from Home Depot that he threw around the statue and tugged it down, but it turns out it came down so easily because no one had bolted it to the pedestal. It was just assumed no one would ever question the erection of Columbus on top of that pedestal, so it was very easy in the end to topple it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Well, let me go to Sasha in Berkeley next. Sasha, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Well, I look at this as Humpty Dumpty that we have to put back together again after Trump is gone. And I’m curious why what I’m going to suggest next couldn’t be done.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I would take down all the gold in the White House and anywhere else that’s been plastered and melt it down for money we could put into the Treasury. And in terms of the art, take it down and the ballroom — if there is no need for a huge room like that, currently called the ballroom, I would take at least half of it down if the other half is to be made into useful offices or replace, I forget what it was, the East or the West Wing that he tore down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, but the biggest problem is how do we put the government back together again? And I have no answers for that because clearly all of our departments have been stripped of staff, and what have they been replaced for, or what it remains are people with political agendas to destroy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Sasha, thanks for weighing in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha:\u003c/strong> I’m curious about whether we can melt it all down or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we were hearing from Erin, you know, just what kinds of potential consequences you could face for that. I don’t know if you want to add anything to Sasha’s point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Well, I’ll just say that I think that a lot of the stuff that got stuck up around the White House might not be actual gold, so melting it down might produce a lot of plastic fumes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was a suspicion. Let me go to David in Indiana next. David, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David:\u003c/strong> Well, since, uh… arches tend to commemorate something specific, and one of the biggest, if not the biggest, concern of Americans right now is affordability, maybe it should be named the Arch of Affordability, the Triumph of Affordability, or at least nicknamed that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, David, thanks. Yeah, if you can’t take it down, maybe you just reimagine and reconstitute its purpose. That could be one way to handle it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So RJ writes, “How can judges be so gullible and not see through claims that these projects are for national security?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wanna ask you about this, Tom. What is the status of the legal challenge, right? What can you tell us about the arch in particular?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Well, there are lawsuits pending, but to your listener’s point, it’s not that judges are gullible. It’s that they don’t think they have the power to contradict the executive on what constitutes national security, which is why this keeps getting kicked up further and further because there are some judges that say, okay, fine, I’m not buying that argument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, precedence, precedent and history tend to be on the side of presidents when they say national security. The courts basically say someone besides us has to adjudicate what the answer — usually be in Congress, since we don’t actually have a function in Congress right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s not that the judges are gullible, it’s that I think some of them feel that their hands are tied.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I wanted to make, if I could, I just wanna make a quick note about what monuments are for, because Erin’s point is very important. But I think it depends on where you live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I lived and worked in Boston for years. And monuments can also be really important reminders about what’s good in us and what we should remember about ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you walked from my old office in the State House on Beacon Hill, all the way down through the garden and the Boston Common and the Public Garden, you would pass a plaque, a sculpture dedicated to Robert Gould Shaw, for example, the commander of the Massachusetts 54th, the first Black Army unit. You go further down, you pass statues of abolitionists. You walk out of the Public Garden under the gaze of George Washington.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The problem is that Donald Trump is cheapening our notion of what a memorial is by taking them and basically admitting, as he did — he was interviewed last summer and basically someone said, are you putting these up because they’re afraid they won’t put them up for you when you’re gone? And he said, yeah, this is what I want. And no one will do this once I’m gone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, in a democracy, if you’re saying, I want to put these up because no one wants them but me, that’s a really kind of revealing and dysfunctional thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So yes, it’s true that memorials can be these awful attempts to intimidate people. Trump’s efforts, by the way, remind me not of — although I think Colosseum is a great example — I spent a lot of time in the old Soviet Union, and his projects remind me of these outsized Soviet war memorials that were everywhere in Moscow and Leningrad and Kiev and other places in the Old Soviet Union.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s just not the kind of country we are, but that doesn’t mean that we should forget how memorials can really inspire us and make us better people just by seeing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Barbara writes, “Trump builds these illegal monuments to himself because he knows others will not. They need to be torn down at the earliest opportunity. We cannot let these un-American monuments to a cruel, lawless, corrupt leader stand. Symbols matter.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners, you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think — and I know I’m asking you to sort of get into the mind, but I imagine, Erin, you have some thoughts on this. Is the simplistic message he wants to send with these monuments to himself — what do you think he’s hoping people will associate with him? Wealth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin Thompson:\u003c/strong> Our goodness. Yeah, it’s not too complicated, I think. And it has been the same in monuments throughout time. Bigger is better, is permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s interesting that we do tend to think of monuments as permanent, but they really aren’t. America is very strange in that we’ve had the same set of monuments for so long, but almost every other culture, country in the world has seen waves of monuments go up and down every time power changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So yeah, I think we should get used to the idea, thinking of our monuments as lovely but temporary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I think we think of them as so permanent just because of the way that they’re built, and like marble and stone. Yeah, that’s just — that’s why they’re so big, you can’t ignore them. Yeah, and you have to look up at them and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, in the short term, can it serve the political purpose of distraction, say, from the things that he hasn’t been able to keep his promises on in this particular presidency? Erin or Tom. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, sorry. Yes, but I think it’s backfiring in the way that we discussed earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If we were winning the war in Iran, and we are not, you could almost see people making an argument to say, well, we’ve toppled a terrible regime. We’ve been at each other’s throats for nearly a half century. And the people of Iran are going to be free. And who? You know, whatever argument you want to make, and therefore we should put up something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The problem is that everything that he would want to commemorate, including himself — I mean, who puts up a monument to himself when he’s at 30%? You know, that’s the kind of, I suppose, grim and laughable part of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He’s losing war, the economy is tumbling off the rails, his party is about to be clobbered. Um, you know, in, in, um, at least by all indications that we can see so far, his party’s going to get obliterated in the midterms. His — he’s at historic, he’s reaching, he has fallen below, uh, what our friend Sarah Longwell calls the Bush line, the George W. Bush line. And he’s now heading for Nixon territory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you know who’s, who’s response to that is to say, you don’t — we need a memorial, a statue, a ballroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and I think that’s the kind of shock that hits people. If things were going well, you would have a lot of people defending this or at least ignoring it. And instead he’s doing this at a time that I think a lot of ordinary Americans who don’t usually pay a lot of attention to the news are getting home from the grocery store and saying, you know, you’ve got to be kidding me. Well, what is this about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it is breaking through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Gregory in Oakland writes, “I appreciate the point that it’s not just the system, but also the people who keep enabling this behavior from our leaders. These projects ultimately distract us from issues that matter even more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trish writes, “He knows that nobody is going to honor him in such a grand manner once he’s out of the picture. So he has to honor himself given the atrocities that he and his administration have perpetrated upon the nation and the world. I suspect that one day there will be a move to tear down all of his creations just as we are doing nowadays for those who have been revealed for their atrocities.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump’s name has been taken down for now from the Kennedy Center. Tom, can you just remind us of the status of all that? Because I know you’ve also recently reported on it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Nichols:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, this is, I mean, I think another place where people are starting to pay attention in a way that they didn’t before is looking at him and saying, with all the things going on in the world, he’s fixated on this, that he has to have his name next to Jack Kennedy for some reason, you know, in a city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we should also stipulate here what George — excuse me, Donald Trump hates Washington. I mean, it’s not a city where he is popular. He doesn’t like it there. When he first came to — in his first term, he actually tried to figure out if he could govern the country from New York instead of having to move to Washington.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the city kind of hates him back. I mean, he is tremendously unpopular there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he’s been trying to get this done. The courts have told him that he cannot put his name on it. Then he said, well, if I renovate it — well, can we put a big plaque? This is all done through his trustees, by the way, who are all basically his cronies. If I renovate it, can you put a plaque on it that said, renovated by the Trump Kennedy Center Foundation or some damn thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the courts again said, nice try, very funny, but no.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now the trustees have said, well, if we can’t rename it and the president won’t help us fundraise to rebuild it, we’re going to have to tear it down. Which was Trump event, essentially. I wrote a piece about it saying this is basically blackmail. This is the Dane-geld, as Kipling called it. He wants a payoff, he wants his name on it, or he’s going to destroy this beloved national icon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And my argument is that we ought to let him. I think in full view of the American people, if this is who he is and the kind of administration he’s running, then I think Americans ought to see the John F. Kennedy Center torn down because the president had a temper tantrum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that’s where it stands now. He can’t get his name on it. The courts have stopped him at every turn, and his threat now is, it’s so decrepit that without my money, you know, without me raising money, it’ll have to be torn down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, as we’ve talked about, this issue with the monuments is very much a metaphor for his presidency. Thanks for digging through it with us. Tom Nichols of \u003cem>The Atlantic\u003c/em> and Erin Thompson of City University of New York, author of \u003cem>Smashing Statues\u003c/em>, and also thank you for doing that with us, our listeners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And my thanks as well for Ana de Amaral for producing this segment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 1, 2026\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wildfire season is underway in California, but the state’s wildfire fund is running low after billions went to victims of last year’s massive Altadena fire, sparked by faulty equipment owned by Southern California Edison. Governor Newsom and the legislature’s debate over fixing the wildfire fund has hinged on the extent utilities, insurance companies and homeowners would pay into it. We’ll dig into the details, and hear your thoughts on who should pay to rebuild after wildfires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati,\u003c/strong> correspondent, KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability, director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program, senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joy Chen,\u003c/strong> executive director, Every Fire Survivor’s Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 1, 2026\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wildfire season is underway in California, but the state’s wildfire fund is running low after billions went to victims of last year’s massive Altadena fire, sparked by faulty equipment owned by Southern California Edison. Governor Newsom and the legislature’s debate over fixing the wildfire fund has hinged on the extent utilities, insurance companies and homeowners would pay into it. We’ll dig into the details, and hear your thoughts on who should pay to rebuild after wildfires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati,\u003c/strong> correspondent, KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability, director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program, senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joy Chen,\u003c/strong> executive director, Every Fire Survivor’s Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Artificial Stone Containing Silica is Killing Workers. Will California Ban It?",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate, Monday, August 17, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More than 600 California stoneworkers have contracted silicosis, a deadly and incurable lung disease resulting from exposure to the silica in engineered stone. The material, a go-to choice for home countertops, has been found to be toxic to the workers who cut, grind and polish it. Now, doctors, stoneworkers and activists are pressuring California lawmakers to ban the material and embrace available alternatives. At the same time, stone manufacturers and lawmakers are pushing federal legislation to protect manufacturers from worker lawsuits. Join us as we unpack the danger of artificial stone containing silica and the state of efforts to protect workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero, \u003c/strong>labor correspondent, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi,\u003c/strong> pulmonologist and assistant professor, UC San Francisco; director, the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We learn more this hour with KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent here. Welcome, Farida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is also with us, a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician and director for the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network at UCSF. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Gandhi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Farida, you first encountered someone with silicosis a few years ago. What were they going through?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. They were in their late 20s. And I think how young this worker was at the time — I think it was in 2023, when California was considering tightening rules for how engineered stone, or artificial stone, which is this material linked to the increase in silicosis — they were considering tightening these rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so this young man came into the meeting via Zoom. And I could see that he was connected to an oxygen machine, you know, with, like, the clear tubes tied to his nostrils, clipped to his nostrils. And I just couldn’t believe that he was so young and he was having to depend on an oxygen machine to breathe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think he said he was on the waitlist to receive a lung transplant, which meant that his silicosis was really advanced. And he’d worked a number of years in this industry. But obviously, I mean, the fact that he was so young and already having to deal with it, and it seemed like most of the burden for his disease was falling on his family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He used to be the main breadwinner, and now everybody had to deal with this. So it’s —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The age is not necessarily a major outlier, right? Young men predominantly are getting this disease. I read that the median age of diagnosis is 46.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California, first of all, is the only state, as I understand it, actively tracking this disease. And what we know from this data that doctors at the California Department of Public Health have gathered and spent time confirming these cases, tracking these cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then also, the numbers that you, the figures that you just mentioned right now — I mean, the fact that we have this website showing us all the new cases that they’re finding, where they are in the state, the age of the people getting sick, how many people have undergone lung transplants or are waiting for this surgery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about if they’ve received a lung transplant?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one of the reasons that doctors like Dr. Gandhi say that we’ve been able to, you know, track these cases as well. In other states, through our public health system, and that these workers have been able to receive life-saving treatment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with them and you after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>More than 600 California stoneworkers have contracted silicosis, a deadly and incurable lung disease resulting from exposure to the silica in engineered stone. The material, a go-to choice for home countertops, has been found to be toxic to the workers who cut, grind and polish it. Now, doctors, stoneworkers and activists are pressuring California lawmakers to ban the material and embrace available alternatives. At the same time, stone manufacturers and lawmakers are pushing federal legislation to protect manufacturers from worker lawsuits. Join us as we unpack the danger of artificial stone containing silica and the state of efforts to protect workers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>More than 600 California stoneworkers have contracted silicosis, a deadly and incurable lung disease resulting from exposure to the silica in engineered stone. The material, a go-to choice for home countertops, has been found to be toxic to the workers who cut, grind and polish it. Now, doctors, stoneworkers and activists are pressuring California lawmakers to ban the material and embrace available alternatives. At the same time, stone manufacturers and lawmakers are pushing federal legislation to protect manufacturers from worker lawsuits. Join us as we unpack the danger of artificial stone containing silica and the state of efforts to protect workers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We learn more this hour with KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent here. Welcome, Farida.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We learn more this hour with KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent here. Welcome, Farida.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is also with us, a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician and director for the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network at UCSF. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Gandhi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is also with us, a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician and director for the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network at UCSF. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Gandhi.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Farida, you first encountered someone with silicosis a few years ago. What were they going through?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Farida, you first encountered someone with silicosis a few years ago. What were they going through?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. They were in their late 20s. And I think how young this worker was at the time — I think it was in 2023, when California was considering tightening rules for how engineered stone, or artificial stone, which is this material linked to the increase in silicosis — they were considering tightening these rules.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so this young man came into the meeting via Zoom. And I could see that he was connected to an oxygen machine, you know, with, like, the clear tubes tied to his nostrils, clipped to his nostrils. And I just couldn’t believe that he was so young and he was having to depend on an oxygen machine to breathe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think he said he was on the waitlist to receive a lung transplant, which meant that his silicosis was really advanced. And he’d worked a number of years in this industry. But obviously, I mean, the fact that he was so young and already having to deal with it, and it seemed like most of the burden for his disease was falling on his family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think he said he was on the waitlist to receive a lung transplant, which meant that his silicosis was really advanced. And he’d worked a number of years in this industry. But obviously, I mean, the fact that he was so young and already having to deal with it, and it seemed like most of the burden for his disease was falling on his family.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He used to be the main breadwinner, and now everybody had to deal with this. So it’s —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The age is not necessarily a major outlier, right? Young men predominantly are getting this disease. I read that the median age of diagnosis is 46.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The age is not necessarily a major outlier, right? Young men predominantly are getting this disease. I read that the median age of diagnosis is 46.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California, first of all, is the only state, as I understand it, actively tracking this disease. And what we know from this data that doctors at the California Department of Public Health have gathered and spent time confirming these cases, tracking these cases.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then also, the numbers that you, the figures that you just mentioned right now — I mean, the fact that we have this website showing us all the new cases that they’re finding, where they are in the state, the age of the people getting sick, how many people have undergone lung transplants or are waiting for this surgery.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about if they’ve received a lung transplant?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s one of the reasons that doctors like Dr. Gandhi say that we’ve been able to, you know, track these cases as well. In other states, through our public health system, and that these workers have been able to receive life-saving treatment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with them and you after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate, Monday, August 17, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More than 600 California stoneworkers have contracted silicosis, a deadly and incurable lung disease resulting from exposure to the silica in engineered stone. The material, a go-to choice for home countertops, has been found to be toxic to the workers who cut, grind and polish it. Now, doctors, stoneworkers and activists are pressuring California lawmakers to ban the material and embrace available alternatives. At the same time, stone manufacturers and lawmakers are pushing federal legislation to protect manufacturers from worker lawsuits. Join us as we unpack the danger of artificial stone containing silica and the state of efforts to protect workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero, \u003c/strong>labor correspondent, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi,\u003c/strong> pulmonologist and assistant professor, UC San Francisco; director, the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new study finds that California workers who fabricate a popular engineered stone countertop, or quartz, are falling ill with an incurable and sometimes deadly disease. Some 600 people have developed silicosis since 2019, according to data from the State Department of Public Health, caused by inhaling silica particles. Dozens have died. At least 65 have required lung transplants. California is moving toward restricting engineered stone, but manufacturers are pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We learn more this hour with KQED’s Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent here. Welcome, Farida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is also with us, a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician and director for the Center for Silicosis Support and Research Network at UCSF. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Gandhi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Farida, you first encountered someone with silicosis a few years ago. What were they going through?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. They were in their late 20s. And I think how young this worker was at the time — I think it was in 2023, when California was considering tightening rules for how engineered stone, or artificial stone, which is this material linked to the increase in silicosis — they were considering tightening these rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so this young man came into the meeting via Zoom. And I could see that he was connected to an oxygen machine, you know, with, like, the clear tubes tied to his nostrils, clipped to his nostrils. And I just couldn’t believe that he was so young and he was having to depend on an oxygen machine to breathe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think he said he was on the waitlist to receive a lung transplant, which meant that his silicosis was really advanced. And he’d worked a number of years in this industry. But obviously, I mean, the fact that he was so young and already having to deal with it, and it seemed like most of the burden for his disease was falling on his family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He used to be the main breadwinner, and now everybody had to deal with this. So it’s —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The age is not necessarily a major outlier, right? Young men predominantly are getting this disease. I read that the median age of diagnosis is 46.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California, first of all, is the only state, as I understand it, actively tracking this disease. And what we know from this data that doctors at the California Department of Public Health have gathered and spent time confirming these cases, tracking these cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then also, the numbers that you, the figures that you just mentioned right now — I mean, the fact that we have this website showing us all the new cases that they’re finding, where they are in the state, the age of the people getting sick, how many people have undergone lung transplants or are waiting for this surgery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we know is that many of these workers are in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s. Many of them have told me that they used to work with natural stones for decades. You know, the older workers, and they didn’t have this problem until they began working with artificial stone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And all of them, you know, have told me, the people that I’ve spoken with, have said that they didn’t know about the hazards of working with engineered stone until they or someone — you know, a coworker, a friend — got sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also really struck by the statistic that 98% of the cases are among Latino men.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> In California, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, in California. And as you say, the fact that we even have this data is because California is uniquely taking this opportunity to really learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’ve heard from doctors in other states, in Illinois, in Florida, Massachusetts, Colorado, that have reported cases, but those states don’t have, you know, a concerted effort like California does to track this disease in the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Gandhi, what exactly is silicosis? Why is it so debilitating and even deadly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So silicosis is a completely preventable lung disease. It essentially is caused by breathing in fractured or respirable crystalline silica that comes from mostly, like, minerals and rocks in the ground, so quartz. And when it is ground into a fine powder, it becomes the perfect size to enter into lungs and retain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the air sacs of the lungs are alveoli, where we exchange gas. And over time, the silica causes inflammation, it seems like, and also that inflammation, and also direct scars to the lungs. And when the lungs scar, it is very difficult to reverse from any cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in other lung diseases, we decrease the progression, so stabilize it, but at this point, we don’t really have great medications to reverse scars in the lungs, and there’s no proven therapy for silicosis at this time. So that’s why it’s considered incurable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s why it progresses even after someone, let’s say, if they just completely stop their exposure to silica dust, that the inflammation, the scarring and so on progresses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Yeah, you know, there is retained silica in the lung. So it remains there because it’s so small and the body thinks it’s an invader or some kind of, like, foreign body, is what we call it. And so the body almost walls it off inside the lung with, like, your immune system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is stuck there. And so there is data from Spain, but also, like, historical data from mining and other occupations, where they show even when people stop working, that they keep getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about if they’ve received a lung transplant?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> So a lung transplant is not really a cure because a lung transplant, in many outcome data, like when we look at studies of what is a bad outcome from a lung disease, lung transplant is almost the same level as someone dying from that disease because people generally receive a lung transplant when there is a thought that they would not live six more months without it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have to be very ill to receive a lung transplant. And so if you think about it, we’ve had one in six people in California already to that, like, worst outcome almost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lung transplant replaces your lungs with someone else’s, but we often counsel patients that it’s like replacing one chronic disease with another, because with a lung transplant, many times it just is not as safe of a transplant as many of the others, like kidney, or heart, or liver, where people can live many years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On average, the lifespan is like five to eight years after. So if you’re in your 20s or 30s receiving a lung transplant, your life expectancy is still very short. And so it’s not like a treatment. It’s just the last effort to provide some length of quality life for people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what is the quality of life if you have silicosis? What are the types of things you are probably experiencing day to day?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi:\u003c/strong> You know, in the beginning, many people don’t have very many symptoms. And really, we push them to say, oh, like, you know, I ask them. And they’ll be like, oh, I’m fine. I can still work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then you ask them, like, are you able to play games with your kids? They’re like, no, I’m too tired when I come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many times, it starts out with, like, a mild dry cough, a little bit of shortness of breath, some tiredness. But over time, this insidiously progresses. So they get worse and worse, almost in a way that is imperceptible until it is just completely affecting all aspects of their life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So they’re very short of breath. Many of them have very severe chest pain that is difficult to treat. They are exhausted all the time. Many lose weight, significant amounts of weight, or have poor appetite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Often we see people develop rare infections that you only see in people with severe lung diseases. They can develop heart issues because of the stress on the heart from the lungs. And then you start to see where they need oxygen, more hospitalizations. And when you’re at that point, we see that they tend to get much worse fast after that point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Farida, you have a clip from a stoneworker diagnosed with silicosis. What can you tell us about him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> His name is Lopez. Yeah. So Lopez lives in the East Bay. And we’re not using his full name because he’s undocumented and his wife as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he also needs an oxygen machine to breathe 24/7. And I think when you speak with these workers and their families, I mean, it’s just this enormous stress of not being able to work anymore. They’re completely disabled, you know? They can’t even, like Dr. Gandhi said, play with their children or do things that used to be really easy before, like walking to the store or carrying grocery bags or going upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Lopez is also on a waitlist for a lung transplant. And I think not just him, but other folks I’ve spoken with, they talk about the mental toll, going from feeling like they were the main breadwinners for their family and now they feel like a burden, and they’re terrified about what’s going to happen to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear the clip and have you translate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lopez:\u003c/strong> Right now, I feel desperate. It’s a desperation to be just sitting around, without being able to do anything. It’s anguish to be here just waiting for the time for them to talk to me about the hospital, to receive the transplant that I’m waiting for, so that I can go out and work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so he’s just talking about how he feels desperate, and how difficult it is to be just sitting at home waiting for the hospital to call to tell him when he can get a lung transplant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you noted that he’s undocumented. Are a lot of stoneworkers undocumented, and does that make it harder for them to get the health care they need or ask employers for the support that they need?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero:\u003c/strong> Um, you know, we know many, many of them are immigrant workers, immigrant Latino workers. A lot of people I’ve spoken with are undocumented, but we don’t have a clear picture if the majority are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is part of the construction industry. There are so many Latino immigrants in California that work in that industry. And I think, you know, something to note about California is because we have a safety net for undocumented workers as well, although it’s been, you know, impacted in the last couple years because of budget cuts in the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one of the reasons that doctors like Dr. Gandhi say that we’ve been able to, you know, track these cases as well. In other states, through our public health system, and that these workers have been able to receive life-saving treatment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Farida Jhabvala Romero, labor correspondent for KQED, who’s been covering the increase in the cases of silicosis caused by cutting engineered stone. Also, Dr. Sheiphali Gandhi is with us, an assistant professor at UCSF, who is a pulmonologist and occupational medicine physician.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-audio\">\u003caudio controls src=\"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC3165819532.mp3\">\u003c/audio>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, August 3, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A trusted press is essential to a thriving democracy, but recent studies show that Americans’ confidence in news media has hit record lows — regardless of factors like geography and political affiliation. To blame are growing perceptions of bias and a sense that news reporting that doesn’t feel applicable to everyday life. We look at why so few people trust the media — and what could be done to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, journalist, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, Scene on Radio producer and host, Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does that all mean? What has journalism gotten wrong? And where do we go from here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome to you both.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a sense of just not being able to get information about what’s going on in the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about attributing it to a single thing. I think there’s a combination of factors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The biggest comment that we heard was simply, \u003cem>más información\u003c/em>. People wanted more information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Spanish speakers here in the Bay Area, despite the fact that there are nearly two million Bay Area residents who speak Spanish at home, there are so few sources of news and information serving that community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People told us they wanted more information, more local information, more information that’s relevant to their daily lives. They also said, “I want actionable information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We led this listening process during the first Trump administration, and so many people told us, “I just avoid the news because it leaves me in a panic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the news was, in some ways, harmful to their own mental health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And how do they feel their communities are profiled or presented to the world through the media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Essentially as victims — very much so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I recall one conversation that I had with a community organizer who was a leader in an organization of immigrant women in the East Bay. She told me that, previous to that job, she had worked as a lawyer and would oftentimes get calls from reporters asking to interview her for her expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yet in this role, working as a community organizer for an organization made up of immigrant women, reporters called her looking for profiles of people who were victims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s how she personally experienced the media, and I think it’s how a lot of community members see themselves reflected in the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. We’re joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast out of Duke University that recently investigated our news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you just heard \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. I’m Lesley McClurg. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim, and we’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. This is across political parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He’s host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast about America’s news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s the publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We would love to hear from you. Do you trust us? Why or why not? Can you remember when you potentially started to lose confidence in the media? Do you want more local news? Why or why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can email your comments and questions to forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on any of the social channels — Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram. We’re @KQEDForum. Or you can jump on the phone now and give us a call at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, journalist, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, Scene on Radio producer and host, Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what does that all mean? What has journalism gotten wrong? And where do we go from here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome to you both.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there’s a sense of just not being able to get information about what’s going on in the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there’s a sense of just not being able to get information about what’s going on in the community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about attributing it to a single thing. I think there’s a combination of factors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about attributing it to a single thing. I think there’s a combination of factors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The biggest comment that we heard was simply, \u003cem>más información\u003c/em>. People wanted more information.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Spanish speakers here in the Bay Area, despite the fact that there are nearly two million Bay Area residents who speak Spanish at home, there are so few sources of news and information serving that community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>People told us they wanted more information, more local information, more information that’s relevant to their daily lives. They also said, “I want actionable information.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We led this listening process during the first Trump administration, and so many people told us, “I just avoid the news because it leaves me in a panic.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. We’re joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast out of Duke University that recently investigated our news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim, and we’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. This is across political parties.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-audio\">\u003caudio controls src=\"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC3165819532.mp3\">\u003c/audio>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, August 3, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A trusted press is essential to a thriving democracy, but recent studies show that Americans’ confidence in news media has hit record lows — regardless of factors like geography and political affiliation. To blame are growing perceptions of bias and a sense that news reporting that doesn’t feel applicable to everyday life. We look at why so few people trust the media — and what could be done to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, journalist, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, Scene on Radio producer and host, Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I am in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is a very strange moment to be a journalist. Apparently, reporting gigs are declining faster than jobs in coal mining. And those of us in public radio have spent the last year grappling with really deep loss of funding, federal funding, really painful layoffs. Trust in the media is at an all-time low. People tell me all the time they can’t listen anymore because the news is simply just too depressing. Many Americans have more faith in podcasters than reporters because at least they offer some kind of entertainment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does that all mean? What has journalism gotten wrong? And where do we go from here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He is host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. It’s a podcast out of the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University that recently investigated Americans’ news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re also joined by \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>. She’s founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s a publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome to you both.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> John, how do you define the news and information crisis? I have my own ideas of what that is, but how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there are a few key aspects to it. It’s multifaceted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One is, you mentioned journalism jobs going away. Well, that’s a crisis that I think the news media itself has not done a very good job of covering. Sure, you can find news articles about local news in particular struggling and newspapers going out of business and the loss of journalism jobs. But I don’t think most people have really grasped it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When my co-host, Chenjerai Kumanyika, and I launched this latest season of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>, which we simply call \u003cem>The News\u003c/em>, I wasn’t aware of the depth and the extent of that crisis: that we’ve lost three-quarters of the working journalists at the local level in this country in 25 years or so. It’s absolutely extraordinary. And there are a lot of ramifications for communities and for democracy that we could talk more about. So that’s one facet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other certainly is trust. You mentioned Gallup. In 2025, they found that less than 30% of Americans have even some trust that the news media will report the facts fully, accurately, and fairly. That’s way down from a few decades ago. And there are many reasons for that, I think, and many facets to it that we discuss.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s this general sense that there are a gazillion sources all saying very different things, so we don’t have a shared narrative in this country. And when you’re trying to run a democracy, that’s another kind of crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> For your podcast, you talk to people who definitely don’t have a lot of confidence in the media. You went to the Border Belt. This is a rural part of North Carolina. Can you paint us a picture of this community?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So this is a section of southeastern North Carolina along the South Carolina border, several counties where I spent time talking to a range of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These are counties that are historically, and still relatively, low income. They’re very, very diverse, with large white, Black, and Indigenous populations. It’s a place that has lost a whole bunch of manufacturing jobs, like many rural places in the U.S. over the last two or three decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also a place that has gone from mostly Democratic in presidential elections, quite recently, to very solidly red, really just in the age of Trump, which is really interesting and kind of surprising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, yeah, we found a lot of people who have a lot of mistrust of the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other really, really important thing to say about the Border Belt is that most of these counties are news deserts, meaning there is very little in the way of local news sources about what’s going on in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of these counties had relatively strong independent newspapers that might have had a handful of reporters covering the city council, the school board, local business, and things like that up until 10 or 20 years ago. Now they’ve been bought by chains, and the newspapers typically have one full-time person who is kind of overseeing reporting on high school sports and a couple of features. They no longer have anybody to send even to cover the basics of what’s going on in local government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a sense of just not being able to get information about what’s going on in the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what are people in that community saying about the news? What do they think of the press and the local media, the news media in general? What’s the relationship now, given that there aren’t local reporters on the ground? What do they think of, like, \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em>, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think if you ask, this won’t surprise you. We talked to people who mostly get their news from Fox News and Newsmax and other right-wing sources who think that the rest of the news media — the mainstream media, TV networks, the national papers, and so on — are biased.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly, they would say they are very anti-Trump, and that impression causes folks to sort of tune it out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the effects is that if you don’t have a local news source telling you what’s going on in your own community, you’re probably filling the time that you might have spent reading your local newspaper or listening to a local radio station with national news sources that you already pay attention to — or, frankly, more likely, social media and things like that, which are even more polarized and feed you the things you already think are true. There have been studies showing that this actually exacerbates polarization.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you get a sense or an understanding of why people swung from Democratic to more Trumpian? What sort of led or pushed them toward the right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Biewen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think you have to be really careful about attributing it to a single thing. I think there’s a combination of factors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were economic changes that took place. I alluded to the loss of manufacturing jobs. There were people who, after the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009, lost faith in what either of the major parties were doing. Since the Democrats were in charge at that time, a lot of the frustration landed there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But to the extent that we could tie it to changes in the media, it was some of the things I was just talking about, and the sense that we’ve had a 60-year drumbeat in this country, going back at least to Spiro Agnew in the Nixon administration, of conservatives endlessly shouting that you shouldn’t trust the mainstream news media because they are left-wing or left-leaning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That has taken on an even sharper, more incessant tone under Trump, where you have a president who, for much of the last 10 years, has dominated the public discourse and casually calls the news “fake news.” I think that has given people a kind of license to simply write off things in the news that they would rather not hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Madeleine, your reporting focuses on Latino and Mayan immigrant communities here in the Bay Area. What are you hearing from them about their relationship to the press and to the news media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So before really starting El Tímpano, we spent nearly a year simply listening — sitting down and talking with hundreds of immigrants and community leaders in East Oakland to ask them, “What do you want to see in local media? What do you want to change in local media?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The biggest comment that we heard was simply, \u003cem>más información\u003c/em>. People wanted more information.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was listening to John’s podcast and the conversations he was having with rural voters in North Carolina, it wasn’t that different. People had seen their local news decline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Spanish speakers here in the Bay Area, despite the fact that there are nearly two million Bay Area residents who speak Spanish at home, there are so few sources of news and information serving that community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Immigrants were primarily referring to the big broadcast networks of Univision and Telemundo. There are great reporters there, but if that is your only source of news and information, those outlets are covering a nine-plus-county metropolitan area in maybe less than a half hour each day. There’s only so much local reporting they can do that’s relevant to people’s lives in different corners of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People told us they wanted more information, more local information, more information that’s relevant to their daily lives. They also said, “I want actionable information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the other biggest pieces of feedback that we heard about existing Spanish-language news was that it only covers attacks on my community without giving me information I can use to take action.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We led this listening process during the first Trump administration, and so many people told us, “I just avoid the news because it leaves me in a panic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the news was, in some ways, harmful to their own mental health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And how do they feel their communities are profiled or presented to the world through the media?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair:\u003c/strong> Essentially as victims — very much so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I recall one conversation that I had with a community organizer who was a leader in an organization of immigrant women in the East Bay. She told me that, previous to that job, she had worked as a lawyer and would oftentimes get calls from reporters asking to interview her for her expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yet in this role, working as a community organizer for an organization made up of immigrant women, reporters called her looking for profiles of people who were victims.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s how she personally experienced the media, and I think it’s how a lot of community members see themselves reflected in the media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. We’re joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>, host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast out of Duke University that recently investigated our news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you just heard \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. I’m Lesley McClurg. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim, and we’re talking about why people don’t trust the media. This is across political parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by \u003cstrong>John Biewen\u003c/strong>. He’s host of \u003cem>Scene on Radio\u003c/em>. That’s a podcast about America’s news and information crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And \u003cstrong>Madeleine Bair\u003c/strong>, founder and co-executive director of El Tímpano. That’s the publication for the Bay Area’s Latino and Mayan immigrant communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We would love to hear from you. 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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, Are We Doomed? Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Friday, April 17 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 2026 WNBA season tips off next month. It’s expected to see historic viewership and attendance, after last season’s record-breaking run as the most-watched regular season in the history of the league. But even though this is the WNBA’s historic 30th season, women have been playing basketball since long before 1996. Sports journalists Jordan Robinson and Emma Baccellieri set out to profile the female trailblazers who changed basketball history, like Denise Long Rife, the first woman drafted by an NBA team when she was recruited to the San Francisco Warriors in 1969, and Ora Washington, who in the 1930s became a star on her YMCA’s all-Black basketball team after already winning “almost every tennis trophy available to a Black woman in pre-war America.” We’ll celebrate the players and coaches who made women’s basketball into the phenomenon it is today, and get a preview for the upcoming season, with Robinson and Baccellieri. Their new book is “Court Queens: Celebrate the Players, Teams, and History of Women’s Basketball.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Friday, April 17 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 2026 WNBA season tips off next month. It’s expected to see historic viewership and attendance, after last season’s record-breaking run as the most-watched regular season in the history of the league. But even though this is the WNBA’s historic 30th season, women have been playing basketball since long before 1996. Sports journalists Jordan Robinson and Emma Baccellieri set out to profile the female trailblazers who changed basketball history, like Denise Long Rife, the first woman drafted by an NBA team when she was recruited to the San Francisco Warriors in 1969, and Ora Washington, who in the 1930s became a star on her YMCA’s all-Black basketball team after already winning “almost every tennis trophy available to a Black woman in pre-war America.” We’ll celebrate the players and coaches who made women’s basketball into the phenomenon it is today, and get a preview for the upcoming season, with Robinson and Baccellieri. Their new book is “Court Queens: Celebrate the Players, Teams, and History of Women’s Basketball.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
"title": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient?",
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"headTitle": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "bay-area-legends-celebrating-the-trailblazing-life-of-the-nations-oldest-park-ranger-betty-reid-soskin",
"title": "Bay Area Legends: Celebrating the Trailblazing Life of the Nation’s Oldest Park Ranger Betty Reid Soskin",
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"headTitle": "Bay Area Legends: Celebrating the Trailblazing Life of the Nation’s Oldest Park Ranger Betty Reid Soskin | KQED",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, March 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Betty Reid Soskin was a civil rights pioneer, musician, and the nation’s oldest park ranger when, at the age of 100, she retired from Richmond’s Rosie the Riveter museum where she was dedicated to keeping experiences of Black Americans and women in the forefront of the historical narrative. She worked in the segregated homefront during World War II, was among the first Black families to integrate Walnut Creek, and she ran one of the first Black-owned record stores in the Bay Area. She died in December at 104 years old and as part of our Bay Area Legends series, we’ll listen back to Forum’s interviews with Soskin over the years and talk with those who loved her and worked with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I don’t have too many journalistic regrets, but one of them is that I never got a chance to interview Betty Reid Soskin. Soskin became nationally famous as a park ranger at the Rosie the Riveter Museum in Richmond, but I first encountered her through her blog. Yes—she was a prolific blogger beginning in 2003.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually just learned that she went to an Al Gore internet conference in Silicon Valley, which is one way she got tipped off to the internet. This was a person who adapted to her times, but also shaped them. She died late last year and recently had a memorial at the theater at the Kaiser Auditorium. We wanted to recognize her this morning here on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, too, as a Bay Area legend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid—musician and activist. Thank you so much, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service. She was Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor at the Rosie the Riveter/World War II Home Front National Historical Park. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bob, just before we get into hearing your mother’s voice—because she came on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> several times over the years—what was she like? If she were sitting here in this chair, what would we think about Betty Reid Soskin?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My mother would have been different people at different times in her life. She changed every decade—kind of wiped her slate clean and reinvented herself. So she would have said something appropriate, something she had thought out very carefully, and it would have been worth hearing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Let’s listen to her. She witnessed a ton of history. She worked on the home front during World War II, which we’re going to hear about, but she was also present in Washington, D.C., for Barack Obama’s inauguration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So from the archives, here’s Betty Reid Soskin talking about that moment in 2015 with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Reid Soskin (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m more aware, now in my nineties, of being an evolving person in an evolving nation than I could have been at seventy-five. That’s what I’m impressed with now—that I have seen so much change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m aware that every generation has to recreate democracy in its time. But on January 20th, 2009, I’m a seated guest of George Miller on the Capitol Mall, with a picture of my great-grandmother, who was born in 1846 into slavery and was enslaved until she was nineteen—freed by the Emancipation Proclamation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s an amazing thing, because my grandmother lived to be 102, which means that when she died—since I was born in 1921—I was a grown woman, married with children, twenty-seven years old, when my enslaved ancestor died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m sitting there with a picture in my pocket watching the inauguration of the first African American president, in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial, whose life was contemporary with the life of my great-grandmother. That’s how fast the time goes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was Betty Reid Soskin in 2015, in her nineties at that time, talking with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, you know, she contained history. She was history. Bob Reid, clearly there are some good longevity genes in the family. But Kelli, tell me what it was like having someone who could embody this history while also teaching it to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, it was incredible—an amazing phenomenon to have her. She really was a phenomenon. She was both a gifted storyteller, as you just heard, as well as a living primary source.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, she used to joke sometimes that she had outlived all the people whose memories did not align with her own—which we laughed about, but we also really utilized at the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of history in those World War II years, and there’s certainly the dominant narrative of Rosie the Riveter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everyone came together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes—everyone came together. But everyone was having a different experience, even as they were coming together. And I think that’s what she really emphasized: that you had the main Rosie the Riveter “We Can Do It” narrative, but that was really just the experience of certain folks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were many other people in society who participated in the war effort but had stories of their own—sometimes experiences that seemed to almost contradict each other. Betty taught us that we could hold and tell all those stories at the same time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Bob, tell us a little bit about her life and how your family thinks about her. Since she reinvented herself every decade, it’s a little bit difficult. But why don’t we start with your childhood—where you were born?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my earliest memories was living in the duplex on Sacramento Street, where the train went down the middle of the street—the train my mother talked about, with workers coming from the South and ending up on that train going to Richmond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would read to me from A. A. Milne’s books. I remember sitting there and having my mother read “Spring Morning,” a wonderful poem. And she sang to me. I’m seeing a picture right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s amazing, too. For those who don’t know, that building housed Reid’s Records, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the building is still there, although the record store is not. It was right on this line where all these people were coming up from the South, and she writes about it in her memoir—having you there on Sacramento Street too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why don’t we talk a little bit about how her life ended, or this period of time near the end, and then we’ll go back into the middle?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Her life ending took a long time. It took quite a while for her to finally give up the ghost because she had strong genes. Her heart was working—everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a year before she died, she kind of decided she didn’t really want to be here anymore and was seeking ways she might be able to exit sooner than her body was allowing her to. But she wound up living another year, hoping to see an election come out better than it did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She lived by birthdays. My sister had her birthday, and then my mother would say, “Okay, that’s it—no more birthdays.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when she finally went, she had a condition that took her into the hospital. We joked about it because she said, “They don’t know what to do with me.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She’s invincible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These people are here to keep people alive, and that is not my goal. And she said, “Don’t let the chaplain come anywhere near me,” because she was a devout atheist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What has it been like to do these public memorials for your mother and have people from these different areas of her life come out and tell you about her—celebrate her? What has that been like for you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s awkward, because she was my mother. I don’t know about your mother, but my mother was someone I wanted to make sure I was not like. I spent most of my life trying not to be her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was young, I was Mel Reid’s son, then I was Betty Reid’s son. Then I left for many years, and for a while she was Bob Reid’s mother. Then this Park Service thing happened, and everywhere I went, I was Betty Reid’s son again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sorry, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, right. What an incredible arc to it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, did you anticipate—when she was hired—because she was already quite old when she became a ranger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. To be clear, I did not hire her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay—Wendy Parsons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. She was in her eighties—around 2007 or so. Most people don’t necessarily plan in their eighties to take on an entirely new career and become a park ranger, but she specifically did that in order to tell her story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was working for a state assemblywoman at the time the park was being conceived and planned, and she got involved in the planning. She shared her experience on the World War II home front, and she wanted to keep telling that story. The park wanted her to keep telling it as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she opted to put on the uniform and became a park ranger at about the age of eighty-five.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What was her experience on the home front?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was not actually someone who worked in a shipyard. She used to say she never saw a ship being built. But there were many different types of home front jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She worked as a file clerk for the auxiliary of what was at the time the segregated Boilermakers union. Back in 1942, only white men could really be part of the union. Even white women—and certainly anyone who was not white—were not allowed to officially be part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they had these auxiliary organizations for people working with the union but not in the union. She worked as a clerk in that segregated union office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even that gives you some texture. It’s easy to think of the Kaiser Shipyards or the Oakland dry docks, but there were so many other jobs along the waterfront too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah. There were about two dozen different defense industries in the Bay Area at that time. She used to joke that she was “filing address cards for democracy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in all seriousness, that was the amazing part about the World War II home front effort. You had kids, women—everyone who couldn’t go to war was on the home front doing something: collecting stockings, recycling nylon, all kinds of activities. Everyone was pulling together, trying to help us “outproduce the enemy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had troops overseas fighting the war, but we needed to produce the weapons, supplies, and equipment to support them. Our ability to do that as a country really helped turn the tide of the war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about Betty Reid Soskin, the nation’s oldest park ranger. She died at the age of 104. We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid, and by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service and Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Bay Area Legends: Celebrating the Trailblazing Life of the Nation’s Oldest Park Ranger Betty Reid Soskin | KQED",
"description": "Airdate: Monday, March 9 at 9 AM Betty Reid Soskin was a civil rights pioneer, musician, and the nation's oldest park ranger when, at the age of 100, she retired from Richmond’s Rosie the Riveter museum where she was dedicated to keeping experiences of Black Americans and women in the forefront of the historical narrative. She worked in the segregated homefront during World War II, was among the first Black families to integrate Walnut Creek, and she ran one of the first Black-owned record stores in the Bay Area. She died in December at 104 years old and as part",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, March 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Betty Reid Soskin was a civil rights pioneer, musician, and the nation’s oldest park ranger when, at the age of 100, she retired from Richmond’s Rosie the Riveter museum where she was dedicated to keeping experiences of Black Americans and women in the forefront of the historical narrative. She worked in the segregated homefront during World War II, was among the first Black families to integrate Walnut Creek, and she ran one of the first Black-owned record stores in the Bay Area. She died in December at 104 years old and as part of our Bay Area Legends series, we’ll listen back to Forum’s interviews with Soskin over the years and talk with those who loved her and worked with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I don’t have too many journalistic regrets, but one of them is that I never got a chance to interview Betty Reid Soskin. Soskin became nationally famous as a park ranger at the Rosie the Riveter Museum in Richmond, but I first encountered her through her blog. Yes—she was a prolific blogger beginning in 2003.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually just learned that she went to an Al Gore internet conference in Silicon Valley, which is one way she got tipped off to the internet. This was a person who adapted to her times, but also shaped them. She died late last year and recently had a memorial at the theater at the Kaiser Auditorium. We wanted to recognize her this morning here on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, too, as a Bay Area legend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid—musician and activist. Thank you so much, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service. She was Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor at the Rosie the Riveter/World War II Home Front National Historical Park. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bob, just before we get into hearing your mother’s voice—because she came on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> several times over the years—what was she like? If she were sitting here in this chair, what would we think about Betty Reid Soskin?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My mother would have been different people at different times in her life. She changed every decade—kind of wiped her slate clean and reinvented herself. So she would have said something appropriate, something she had thought out very carefully, and it would have been worth hearing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Let’s listen to her. She witnessed a ton of history. She worked on the home front during World War II, which we’re going to hear about, but she was also present in Washington, D.C., for Barack Obama’s inauguration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So from the archives, here’s Betty Reid Soskin talking about that moment in 2015 with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Reid Soskin (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m more aware, now in my nineties, of being an evolving person in an evolving nation than I could have been at seventy-five. That’s what I’m impressed with now—that I have seen so much change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m aware that every generation has to recreate democracy in its time. But on January 20th, 2009, I’m a seated guest of George Miller on the Capitol Mall, with a picture of my great-grandmother, who was born in 1846 into slavery and was enslaved until she was nineteen—freed by the Emancipation Proclamation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s an amazing thing, because my grandmother lived to be 102, which means that when she died—since I was born in 1921—I was a grown woman, married with children, twenty-seven years old, when my enslaved ancestor died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m sitting there with a picture in my pocket watching the inauguration of the first African American president, in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial, whose life was contemporary with the life of my great-grandmother. That’s how fast the time goes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was Betty Reid Soskin in 2015, in her nineties at that time, talking with Michael Krasny.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, you know, she contained history. She was history. Bob Reid, clearly there are some good longevity genes in the family. But Kelli, tell me what it was like having someone who could embody this history while also teaching it to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, it was incredible—an amazing phenomenon to have her. She really was a phenomenon. She was both a gifted storyteller, as you just heard, as well as a living primary source.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, she used to joke sometimes that she had outlived all the people whose memories did not align with her own—which we laughed about, but we also really utilized at the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of history in those World War II years, and there’s certainly the dominant narrative of Rosie the Riveter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everyone came together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes—everyone came together. But everyone was having a different experience, even as they were coming together. And I think that’s what she really emphasized: that you had the main Rosie the Riveter “We Can Do It” narrative, but that was really just the experience of certain folks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were many other people in society who participated in the war effort but had stories of their own—sometimes experiences that seemed to almost contradict each other. Betty taught us that we could hold and tell all those stories at the same time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Bob, tell us a little bit about her life and how your family thinks about her. Since she reinvented herself every decade, it’s a little bit difficult. But why don’t we start with your childhood—where you were born?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of my earliest memories was living in the duplex on Sacramento Street, where the train went down the middle of the street—the train my mother talked about, with workers coming from the South and ending up on that train going to Richmond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would read to me from A. A. Milne’s books. I remember sitting there and having my mother read “Spring Morning,” a wonderful poem. And she sang to me. I’m seeing a picture right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s amazing, too. For those who don’t know, that building housed Reid’s Records, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the building is still there, although the record store is not. It was right on this line where all these people were coming up from the South, and she writes about it in her memoir—having you there on Sacramento Street too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why don’t we talk a little bit about how her life ended, or this period of time near the end, and then we’ll go back into the middle?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Her life ending took a long time. It took quite a while for her to finally give up the ghost because she had strong genes. Her heart was working—everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a year before she died, she kind of decided she didn’t really want to be here anymore and was seeking ways she might be able to exit sooner than her body was allowing her to. But she wound up living another year, hoping to see an election come out better than it did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She lived by birthdays. My sister had her birthday, and then my mother would say, “Okay, that’s it—no more birthdays.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when she finally went, she had a condition that took her into the hospital. We joked about it because she said, “They don’t know what to do with me.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She’s invincible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These people are here to keep people alive, and that is not my goal. And she said, “Don’t let the chaplain come anywhere near me,” because she was a devout atheist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What has it been like to do these public memorials for your mother and have people from these different areas of her life come out and tell you about her—celebrate her? What has that been like for you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s awkward, because she was my mother. I don’t know about your mother, but my mother was someone I wanted to make sure I was not like. I spent most of my life trying not to be her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was young, I was Mel Reid’s son, then I was Betty Reid’s son. Then I left for many years, and for a while she was Bob Reid’s mother. Then this Park Service thing happened, and everywhere I went, I was Betty Reid’s son again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sorry, Bob.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, right. What an incredible arc to it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kelli English, did you anticipate—when she was hired—because she was already quite old when she became a ranger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. To be clear, I did not hire her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay—Wendy Parsons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. She was in her eighties—around 2007 or so. Most people don’t necessarily plan in their eighties to take on an entirely new career and become a park ranger, but she specifically did that in order to tell her story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was working for a state assemblywoman at the time the park was being conceived and planned, and she got involved in the planning. She shared her experience on the World War II home front, and she wanted to keep telling that story. The park wanted her to keep telling it as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So she opted to put on the uniform and became a park ranger at about the age of eighty-five.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What was her experience on the home front?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was not actually someone who worked in a shipyard. She used to say she never saw a ship being built. But there were many different types of home front jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She worked as a file clerk for the auxiliary of what was at the time the segregated Boilermakers union. Back in 1942, only white men could really be part of the union. Even white women—and certainly anyone who was not white—were not allowed to officially be part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they had these auxiliary organizations for people working with the union but not in the union. She worked as a clerk in that segregated union office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even that gives you some texture. It’s easy to think of the Kaiser Shipyards or the Oakland dry docks, but there were so many other jobs along the waterfront too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelli English:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah. There were about two dozen different defense industries in the Bay Area at that time. She used to joke that she was “filing address cards for democracy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in all seriousness, that was the amazing part about the World War II home front effort. You had kids, women—everyone who couldn’t go to war was on the home front doing something: collecting stockings, recycling nylon, all kinds of activities. Everyone was pulling together, trying to help us “outproduce the enemy.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had troops overseas fighting the war, but we needed to produce the weapons, supplies, and equipment to support them. Our ability to do that as a country really helped turn the tide of the war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about Betty Reid Soskin, the nation’s oldest park ranger. She died at the age of 104. We’re joined by her son, Bob Reid, and by Kelli English, a program manager at the National Park Service and Betty Reid Soskin’s supervisor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the weekend, San Francisco’s public school teachers voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike. The dispute is centered on pay, health benefits, and support for special education, all at a time when the district has been facing financial headwinds so dire that the state has contemplated stepping in to run the district. We’ll get the latest on the labor negotiations and talk about what a potential strike, which could begin as early as February 9, means for teachers, the district, students and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related Link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://San%20Francisco%20Teachers%20Strike:%20What%20Should%20Families%20Know?\">San Francisco Teachers Strike: What Should Families Know?\u003c/a>, KQED\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfusd-teachers-strike-21331694.php\">San Francisco teacher strike looms, with school closures possible\u003c/a>, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"709\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"305\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"317\" data-end=\"324\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There have been a bunch of teacher strikes over the last few years — West Contra Costa, Oakland, others around the state — but it’s been literally decades since the last teacher strike in San Francisco. Up first this morning, we’ve got San Francisco Chronicle K–12 education reporter Jill Tucker with us to catch us up on how we got to this point. Welcome, Jill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"752\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"727\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Nice to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"774\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, okay — where are we? How long have they been bargaining? What’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"1199\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"870\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Yes. So, the San Francisco Unified School District and the teachers union have been bargaining for almost a year. They’ve gone through all of the steps of bargaining, from impasse to a mediator to fact-finding. And now they are at the very, very last step and on the brink of a strike, waiting today for the fact-finding report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1201\" data-end=\"1547\">Once that report comes out — which is expected today — that is the final moment when the union and the district can come to terms. And at that point, the union, which has already voted overwhelmingly to strike, can set a date for a strike. They typically have to give 48 hours’ notice. So if that happens, we could see a strike as soon as Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1569\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This fact-finding report — will it change anything, you think? What will be in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"2003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"1673\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> So the fact-finding report is based on the two sides coming together with a neutral third party and presenting their perspective on the budget and their perspective on what they believe to be a realistic contract — based on salary, benefits, all of the compensation, whether that’s class size or sabbaticals or health care plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2005\" data-end=\"2381\">And then the fact-finder goes back and looks at all the information and provides recommendations for a contract based on the issues that are still outstanding. Both sides can either accept those recommendations or ignore them. So it’s supposed to give something of a common ground, or at least a neutral third party’s perspective on the information that was presented to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2383\" data-end=\"2467\">But both sides can ignore it. It really has no holding power. It’s basically advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Okay. Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle, here with us. I want to add in our first other voice here. Maria Su is superintendent of San Francisco Unified School District. Welcome, Maria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2725\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2906\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2791\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks for joining us, Superintendent. So from your perspective, what are the sticking points in this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"3132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"2921\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, first, I just want to say that we don’t want to strike. I just want to be clear — we don’t want to strike. We want to work with our educators and get to a resolution. I firmly believe we are really close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3134\" data-end=\"3420\">We know that the number-one priority we’re hearing from our educators is the very expensive cost of health care, particularly family health care. And last Friday, in our fact-finding meeting, we were able to come up with a really creative solution to fully cover family health benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3442\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is that creative solution?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3489\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, we were using — these are very technical terms — restricted funds that are restricted to pay for salaries and for benefits. So we’re using funds that are designated for this type of expenditure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How is that different from what you were doing before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"4030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"3782\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We were using what are called unrestricted sources. In a school district, we have different types of funds that pay for staff. And we know that you can’t use one-time funds to pay for ongoing expenses — and, of course, staff is an ongoing expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4032\" data-end=\"4147\">In this particular situation, we’re looking at all different types of sources because we do want to close the deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4175\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4190\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We are really close. I don’t want to strike, and we’re trying to be creative and meet our educators where they are so that we can get to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4363\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what is the financial state of the district right now? For those who are following loosely but not closely, you’ve got the state doing oversight. What does that mean for you in terms of this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4585\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, a year ago, the district was placed under a certification called a negative certification. What that means is that we do not have enough funding to cover our current-year expenses plus the next two years of expenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4989\">And just for our listeners to understand, 85 percent of our budget pays for staff. So it’s really, really difficult when we’re talking about trying to close a huge budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4991\" data-end=\"5231\">However, last year, we were able to close the deficit. We actually closed a $114 million deficit without having to lay off any of our teachers, because we recognize how important it is to have a qualified educator in every single classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How were you able to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5298\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We had a number of different strategies. One of our largest strategies was to offer an early retirement package. We said thank you so much to all of our employees who have worked for many years in the district, and we said, if you are thinking about retirement in the next couple of years, perhaps you would want to retire now to help us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5639\" data-end=\"5731\">And we did. We got a number of people who said, yes, I’m ready to retire, and I will retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5733\" data-end=\"6030\">We also got to the $114 million in cuts through contract negotiations. We were able to either close some contracts or renegotiate the terms of those contracts. We also got there through operational efficiencies. I had to reduce central office from hundreds of people down to a much smaller number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6060\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6052\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6337\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6075\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> But again, we did that without laying off our educators, because we know that the primary goal — the reason for a school district’s existence — is to educate our students. We want to go back to basics and make sure our students learn reading, math, and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6339\" data-end=\"6437\">That’s why it’s so important for me to offer fully funded family health benefits to our educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6459\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about San Francisco teachers authorizing a strike, which could begin as early as next week, in the ongoing negotiations. We’ve got Maria Su, superintendent with San Francisco Unified School District, with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6684\" data-end=\"6954\">Of course, we want to hear from you. You can give us a call at 866-733-6786. You’re a parent, you’re a teacher, you’re a student — give us a call. 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6859\" data-end=\"6873\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. On social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord — we’re @KQEDForum there as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7139\">You know, the district currently has this rainy-day fund. I think it has $111 million, and you may have a better number than that. Why not use it in this instance? Can it not be used?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7154\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> So we created a special fund — again, technical — called Fund 17. And yes, you can call it a rainy-day fund. Essentially, it’s a set-aside that can be used for emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7329\" data-end=\"7649\">A great example was just what happened a couple of months ago, when we heard that the federal government was going to reduce or cut funding for SNAP programs, which are food subsidies for children and families. The city was able to use its reserve to make sure those benefits continued for our most vulnerable residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7651\" data-end=\"7991\">The same could be said here. These are special emergency funds that can be used in moments of emergency. Just a couple of days ago, we had a swarm of earthquakes. God forbid, if we have an earthquake and something terrible happens to one of our schools, we need to be able to tap into some form of funding to meet the needs of our students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8019\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8034\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> I will also say that our monthly payroll is $69 million. So $111 million in emergency funds would only cover about a month and a half of payroll.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8606\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. Let’s get some listener comments to you. Andrea writes, “It seems like the district is assuming our educators will go on strike and not doing anything to stop it. It sounds like the district never gave the union any written proposals. As a parent of two kids at Sunnyside Elementary, I’m asking you to give the teachers not only an offer, but a good offer. These people help raise our children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8608\" data-end=\"8769\">And I’ve heard this from several different places, Superintendent — that there haven’t been written offers of some of these things, official offers to the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"9026\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8784\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the nature of bargaining. We have shared our creative solutions around fully funding family health benefits, which, by the way, would add anywhere from $1,000 up to $1,600 of cash back into the pockets of our amazing educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9028\" data-end=\"9272\">We did share ideas around augmenting salaries for hard-to-staff special education paraprofessionals, because these are positions that are really difficult to fill. We’ve agreed that we will provide additional incentives to bring on these staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9374\">We’ve also shared that we would like to offer a 6 percent salary increase over the next three years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9376\" data-end=\"9612\">So we have shared. And mind you, we have spent the last 11 months in conversation. Through those 11 months, we have already agreed on a number of items. These are just the last few things we need to get back to the table and figure out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9634\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Stay with us — Superintendent Maria Su with San Francisco Unified, and Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. We’re going to try to get to a couple of calls right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9848\" data-end=\"9937\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9889\" data-end=\"9903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "SF Public School Teachers Ready for First Strike Since 1979 | KQED",
"description": "We get the latest on the labor negotiations between SFUSD and the teacher's union and talk about what a potential strike, which could begin as early as February 9, means for teachers, the district, students and their families. ",
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"name": "Maria Su",
"bio": "superintendent, San Francisco Unified School District"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the weekend, San Francisco’s public school teachers voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike. The dispute is centered on pay, health benefits, and support for special education, all at a time when the district has been facing financial headwinds so dire that the state has contemplated stepping in to run the district. We’ll get the latest on the labor negotiations and talk about what a potential strike, which could begin as early as February 9, means for teachers, the district, students and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related Link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://San%20Francisco%20Teachers%20Strike:%20What%20Should%20Families%20Know?\">San Francisco Teachers Strike: What Should Families Know?\u003c/a>, KQED\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfusd-teachers-strike-21331694.php\">San Francisco teacher strike looms, with school closures possible\u003c/a>, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"709\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"305\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"317\" data-end=\"324\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There have been a bunch of teacher strikes over the last few years — West Contra Costa, Oakland, others around the state — but it’s been literally decades since the last teacher strike in San Francisco. Up first this morning, we’ve got San Francisco Chronicle K–12 education reporter Jill Tucker with us to catch us up on how we got to this point. Welcome, Jill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"752\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"727\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Nice to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"774\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, okay — where are we? How long have they been bargaining? What’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"1199\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"870\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Yes. So, the San Francisco Unified School District and the teachers union have been bargaining for almost a year. They’ve gone through all of the steps of bargaining, from impasse to a mediator to fact-finding. And now they are at the very, very last step and on the brink of a strike, waiting today for the fact-finding report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1201\" data-end=\"1547\">Once that report comes out — which is expected today — that is the final moment when the union and the district can come to terms. And at that point, the union, which has already voted overwhelmingly to strike, can set a date for a strike. They typically have to give 48 hours’ notice. So if that happens, we could see a strike as soon as Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1569\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This fact-finding report — will it change anything, you think? What will be in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"2003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"1673\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> So the fact-finding report is based on the two sides coming together with a neutral third party and presenting their perspective on the budget and their perspective on what they believe to be a realistic contract — based on salary, benefits, all of the compensation, whether that’s class size or sabbaticals or health care plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2005\" data-end=\"2381\">And then the fact-finder goes back and looks at all the information and provides recommendations for a contract based on the issues that are still outstanding. Both sides can either accept those recommendations or ignore them. So it’s supposed to give something of a common ground, or at least a neutral third party’s perspective on the information that was presented to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2383\" data-end=\"2467\">But both sides can ignore it. It really has no holding power. It’s basically advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Okay. Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle, here with us. I want to add in our first other voice here. Maria Su is superintendent of San Francisco Unified School District. Welcome, Maria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2725\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2906\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2791\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks for joining us, Superintendent. So from your perspective, what are the sticking points in this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"3132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"2921\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, first, I just want to say that we don’t want to strike. I just want to be clear — we don’t want to strike. We want to work with our educators and get to a resolution. I firmly believe we are really close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3134\" data-end=\"3420\">We know that the number-one priority we’re hearing from our educators is the very expensive cost of health care, particularly family health care. And last Friday, in our fact-finding meeting, we were able to come up with a really creative solution to fully cover family health benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3442\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is that creative solution?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3489\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, we were using — these are very technical terms — restricted funds that are restricted to pay for salaries and for benefits. So we’re using funds that are designated for this type of expenditure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How is that different from what you were doing before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"4030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"3782\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We were using what are called unrestricted sources. In a school district, we have different types of funds that pay for staff. And we know that you can’t use one-time funds to pay for ongoing expenses — and, of course, staff is an ongoing expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4032\" data-end=\"4147\">In this particular situation, we’re looking at all different types of sources because we do want to close the deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4175\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4190\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We are really close. I don’t want to strike, and we’re trying to be creative and meet our educators where they are so that we can get to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4363\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what is the financial state of the district right now? For those who are following loosely but not closely, you’ve got the state doing oversight. What does that mean for you in terms of this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4585\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, a year ago, the district was placed under a certification called a negative certification. What that means is that we do not have enough funding to cover our current-year expenses plus the next two years of expenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4989\">And just for our listeners to understand, 85 percent of our budget pays for staff. So it’s really, really difficult when we’re talking about trying to close a huge budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4991\" data-end=\"5231\">However, last year, we were able to close the deficit. We actually closed a $114 million deficit without having to lay off any of our teachers, because we recognize how important it is to have a qualified educator in every single classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How were you able to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5298\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We had a number of different strategies. One of our largest strategies was to offer an early retirement package. We said thank you so much to all of our employees who have worked for many years in the district, and we said, if you are thinking about retirement in the next couple of years, perhaps you would want to retire now to help us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5639\" data-end=\"5731\">And we did. We got a number of people who said, yes, I’m ready to retire, and I will retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5733\" data-end=\"6030\">We also got to the $114 million in cuts through contract negotiations. We were able to either close some contracts or renegotiate the terms of those contracts. We also got there through operational efficiencies. I had to reduce central office from hundreds of people down to a much smaller number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6060\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6052\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6337\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6075\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> But again, we did that without laying off our educators, because we know that the primary goal — the reason for a school district’s existence — is to educate our students. We want to go back to basics and make sure our students learn reading, math, and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6339\" data-end=\"6437\">That’s why it’s so important for me to offer fully funded family health benefits to our educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6459\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about San Francisco teachers authorizing a strike, which could begin as early as next week, in the ongoing negotiations. We’ve got Maria Su, superintendent with San Francisco Unified School District, with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6684\" data-end=\"6954\">Of course, we want to hear from you. You can give us a call at 866-733-6786. You’re a parent, you’re a teacher, you’re a student — give us a call. 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6859\" data-end=\"6873\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. On social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord — we’re @KQEDForum there as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7139\">You know, the district currently has this rainy-day fund. I think it has $111 million, and you may have a better number than that. Why not use it in this instance? Can it not be used?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7154\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> So we created a special fund — again, technical — called Fund 17. And yes, you can call it a rainy-day fund. Essentially, it’s a set-aside that can be used for emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7329\" data-end=\"7649\">A great example was just what happened a couple of months ago, when we heard that the federal government was going to reduce or cut funding for SNAP programs, which are food subsidies for children and families. The city was able to use its reserve to make sure those benefits continued for our most vulnerable residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7651\" data-end=\"7991\">The same could be said here. These are special emergency funds that can be used in moments of emergency. Just a couple of days ago, we had a swarm of earthquakes. God forbid, if we have an earthquake and something terrible happens to one of our schools, we need to be able to tap into some form of funding to meet the needs of our students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8019\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8034\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> I will also say that our monthly payroll is $69 million. So $111 million in emergency funds would only cover about a month and a half of payroll.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8606\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. Let’s get some listener comments to you. Andrea writes, “It seems like the district is assuming our educators will go on strike and not doing anything to stop it. It sounds like the district never gave the union any written proposals. As a parent of two kids at Sunnyside Elementary, I’m asking you to give the teachers not only an offer, but a good offer. These people help raise our children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8608\" data-end=\"8769\">And I’ve heard this from several different places, Superintendent — that there haven’t been written offers of some of these things, official offers to the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"9026\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8784\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the nature of bargaining. We have shared our creative solutions around fully funding family health benefits, which, by the way, would add anywhere from $1,000 up to $1,600 of cash back into the pockets of our amazing educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9028\" data-end=\"9272\">We did share ideas around augmenting salaries for hard-to-staff special education paraprofessionals, because these are positions that are really difficult to fill. We’ve agreed that we will provide additional incentives to bring on these staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9374\">We’ve also shared that we would like to offer a 6 percent salary increase over the next three years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9376\" data-end=\"9612\">So we have shared. And mind you, we have spent the last 11 months in conversation. Through those 11 months, we have already agreed on a number of items. These are just the last few things we need to get back to the table and figure out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9634\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Stay with us — Superintendent Maria Su with San Francisco Unified, and Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. We’re going to try to get to a couple of calls right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9848\" data-end=\"9937\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9889\" data-end=\"9903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-the-bay-areas-gay-bars-became-a-battleground-for-lgtbq-rights-in-the-1950s",
"title": "How the Bay Area’s Gay Bars Became a Battleground for LGBTQ+ Rights in the 1950s",
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"headTitle": "How the Bay Area’s Gay Bars Became a Battleground for LGBTQ+ Rights in the 1950s | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> has an international reputation as a haven of freedom and culture for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">LGBTQ+\u003c/a> community. And with good reason.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco elected \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11706248/40-years-after-assassinations-assessing-the-legacies-of-harvey-milk-and-george-moscone\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>, California’s first openly gay public official. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11876846/never-take-it-down-the-original-1978-rainbow-flag-returns-to-sf\">the birthplace of the rainbow pride flag\u003c/a>, now a global symbol. The city has also long had an iconic drag queen scene and legendary nightlife with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930323/san-francisco-gay-bars-history-silver-rail-febes-black-cat\">a long history of bustling gay\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929998/historic-lesbian-bars-san-francisco-mauds-pegs-front-anns-monas-440-tommy-vasu\">lesbian bars\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Bay Area was not always this way. The LGBTQ+ community had to fight for these freedoms and safe spaces. Often, this fight was against oppressive policing from the state and local government. And some important moments in that fight happened in unexpected places, like Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, whoa, it says this was in Pacifica! Why have I never heard of it?” Bay Curious listener Henry Lie asked. He’d stumbled across mention of a 1956 police raid at a bar called Hazel’s Inn, where nearly a hundred queer folks were arrested. He wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Progress and repression of LGBTQ+ rights\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco,” said Nan Alamilla Boyd, an oral historian at the UC Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. As a longtime researcher of San Francisco’s LGBTQ+ history, Boyd has interviewed dozens of queer individuals who frequented gay bars during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her interviews uncover stories of the Bay Area’s history, especially the repression queer people faced in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069459\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069459\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-1536x899.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building once housed Hazel’s Inn. This photo was taken in 1966, when the city condemned the building. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of The Pacifica Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these people [I interviewed] witnessed front row seats to [this repressive era], and kept being as out and proud as possible and survived to tell about it,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1951, the California State Board of Equalization revoked the liquor license of the Black Cat Cafe, a popular gay bar, because the establishment was “injurious to public morals.” The Black Cat owner, Sol Stouman, appealed the move to the California Supreme Court. The court ruled in his favor, affirming that the presence of LGBTQ+ people in a bar was allowable, as long as there were no “immoral acts” taking place. The case is known as Stoumen v. Reilly and many historians see it as the first legal victory for the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts,” Boyd explained. “I know it seems really regressive now, but the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t status that was illegal, it was behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the first time, LGBTQ+ people had the protected right to gather at bars without facing prosecution for simply being a queer person in public. And so queer nightlife blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were maybe four or five ‘lesbian bars’ in North Beach within walking distance of each other at any point in time between 1948 and 1955,” Boyd said.[aside postID=news_12029551 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250205-WildSideWest-21-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg']But just a few years later, the U.S. government started targeting the LGBTQ+ community. Now known as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/state-department-gay-employees-outed-fired-lavender-scare\">Lavender Scare\u003c/a>, many of the freedoms enjoyed in the early 50s came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work for immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.” And in California, a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was created in 1955. Known as the ABC, its job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral \u003c/em>codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Things really changed in 1955,” Boyd said. The ABC began waging a war against gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency found ways to undermine the protections previously won by the LGBTQ+ community in Stouman v. Reilly. Since “homosexual acts” were still illegal, suddenly the state was very concerned about specific actions taking place in bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a question about what exactly [were] the behaviors that [were] illegal,” Boyd said. “Do you have to see someone having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about dancing close? So, all this stuff then started being hashed out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With each enforcement action against queer bar patrons, the ABC expanded the definition of illegal acts. Soon, even dancing with someone of the same sex was punishable. The ABC even collaborated with local law enforcement agencies to conduct undercover surveillance operations that identified and monitored LGBTQ gathering spots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe. And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBTQ+ community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars. The community ended up down the coast, where they made Hazel’s Inn their spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Hazel’s Inn raid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early hours of Feb. 19, 1956, a group of 35 ABC and San Mateo County Sheriff’s officers stormed into a full and bustling Hazel’s Inn. There were around 200 patrons present in the bar, mostly men, when the sheriff jumped onto the bar and announced, “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ninety people were arrested that night, including the bar’s owner, Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069461\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2125px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069461\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2125\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg 2125w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-2000x2409.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-160x193.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1275x1536.jpg 1275w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1700x2048.jpg 1700w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2125px) 100vw, 2125px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Coverage of the Hazel’s Inn raid from the San Francisco Chronicle in 1956. It was common, at the time, for newspapers to use derogatory language in reference to the LGBTQ community. \u003ccite>(The San Francisco Chronicle via Newsbank)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn had been under state surveillance for months, and patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents who had been watching them. One by one, agents picked out those they had seen showing queer affection. Most of those arrested faced vagrancy charges. Nikola’s liquor license was quickly revoked for knowingly hosting a hangout for queer people and for serving an underage person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-20-february-1956-smt-hazels-i/10556199/\">\u003cem>The San Mateo Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a> asked Sheriff Earl Whitmore about the raid, he said, “Let it be known that we are not going to tolerate gatherings of homosexuals in the county.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The full extent of the ABC’s operation at Hazel’s Inn became clear as the case was brought before\u003ca href=\"https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AHSI&u=glbths&id=GALE%7CMDRLJF555849529&v=2.1&it=r&sid=bookmark-AHSI&sPage=11&asid=6014d9b9\"> the ABC Board\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-court-of-appeal/1810632.html\">court\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In court documents, Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described the scene at Hazel’s Inn the night of the raid and in the months leading up to it. Strong described how one male patron sat on another man’s lap and how two others were seen holding hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple was seen embracing as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These scenes of queerness would be used in court to justify the revocation of Nikola’s liquor license for being a “resort for sexual perverts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While most of those arrested that night were cleared of charges, the damage had already been done. Newspapers caught wind of the raid, and patrons were publicly outed, with their names, occupations and home addresses published for all to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were so fearful,” Boyd said. “There were [LGBTQ+ people] who would never go out because they were afraid of getting arrested. And then [their] name would be in the paper and [their] life would be ruined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hazel’s Inn raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the following 15 years. Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses were all part of a strategy to push LGBTQ+ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Resistance amidst repression\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Looking back at this history of aggressive policing against queer people and their bars, it’s no surprise that queer nightlife continues to be central to the LGBTQ+ community. For many, gay bars were the only spaces they were afforded the freedom to be openly queer. They were also the battlegrounds where civil rights were won and lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the fight for LGBTQ+ rights continues. As the federal government uses its power to withhold \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049666/nowhere-else-to-go-sf-families-protest-kaisers-new-limits-on-gender-affirming-care\">gender-affirming healthcare\u003c/a> and to target\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12047432/us-sues-california-over-its-refusal-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-girls-sports\"> transgender youth in sports\u003c/a>, Boyd said it can be hard to keep hope alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12068581\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12068581\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nan Alamilla Boyd, a historian, poses for a portrait at the GLBT Historical Society Archives in San Francisco on Jan. 2, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The hits [to LGBTQ+ rights] keep coming and in many different ways,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, her work has taught her that in times of repression, powerful political organizing and cultural innovation can emerge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By the early 1960s, [queer] bartenders and the bar owners had pretty elaborate methods to resist the policing agencies,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They created a resistance movement powerful enough to outlast the government’s efforts to eradicate queer nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t really make cultural innovation illegal because it happens,” Boyd said. “It’s everything, everywhere, all at once. It’s the thing that’s our spirit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s because of that indomitable spirit that the Bay Area looks and feels the way it does today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12063643 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251008-GirlintheFishbowl-01-BL.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>San Francisco and its surrounding Bay Area have long been known as a gay capital of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, it’s here, where the first lesbian civil rights group was formed, the Daughters of Bilitis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And where Harvey Milk became an iconic gay public official! [tape]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harvey Milk:\u003c/strong> I will fight to represent my constituents. I will fight to represent the city and county of San Francisco. I will fight to give those people who once walked away hope, so that those people will walk back in. Thank you very much. [clapping]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It was the birthplace of the Gay pride flag. And it’s where city hall is lit up in a rainbow for pride month. This is the Bay Area that our question asker, Henry Lie, knows well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music stops\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie: \u003c/strong>I’m originally from Pacifica…went to high school at Terranova High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry always thought of Pacifica as an extension of San Francisco — it’s just a few miles south, after all. And, there’s not a whole lot that surprises Henry about his hometown. That is until he learned about a moment in Pacifica’s history that left him with a ton of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> We have this museum.. I think I was there and saw like a footnote or something and it just said like, oh yeah, Hazel’s Inn raid where, you know, there was a large gathering of LGBTQ+ identifying people and a bunch of people were arrested, couple of people charged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry had stumbled across a forgotten moment in history — a massive police raid that took place in 1956, part of a crusade to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ominous music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local newspapers documented the raid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 1: \u003c/strong>San Francisco Examiner: Ninety persons, mostly men, were booked at the San Mateo County jail yesterday after a vice raid on a tavern suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 2: \u003c/strong>San Mateo Times: The raid, according to Sheriff Whitmore, “was to let homosexuals know we’re not going to tolerate their congregation in this county.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 3: \u003c/strong>Redwood City Tribune: Mrs. Nicola, owner of Hazel’s Inn, is charged with operating a resort for sexual deviates. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big questions began surfacing for Henry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> And I was like, whoa, I’ve never even heard of Hazel’s Inn. This says this was in Pacifica. Why have I never heard of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So he came to Bay Curious, hoping to find out more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Could you dive deeper into the Hazel’s Inn raid in Pacifica and the effects that it had on the LGBTQ plus community in the greater Bay area in the late 1950s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. This week, we’re going back to the gay bars of the 1950s to learn about a moment in time when the San Francisco Bay Area was far less welcoming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that coming right up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To dig deeper into Bay Area queer history, KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral takes us to Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Pacifica is a beautiful place, with sprawling views of the ocean and stunning beaches. It has that small town feel, complete with a\u003cem> tiny\u003c/em> museum showcasing its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This is our little museum…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Laura Del Rosso was born and raised in Pacifica, and serves as a docent and board member for the Pacifica Coastside Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This whole area around here was full of speakeasies, taverns, restaurants, and brothels during Prohibition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>It seems hard to imagine now, but this small town was once infamous for its nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso: \u003c/strong>Some people think that San Mateo County coast was actually the wettest place in the whole United States, meaning there was more booze here and in Half Moon Bay area than anywhere else in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>While the historical society has long been aware of the clandestine nightlife during Prohibition, it wasn’t until a few years ago that they started uncovering the history of a hushed queer nightlife scene that took hold right here, in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Jazzy music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Hazel’s Inn was a tavern in Sharp Park, now a neighborhood in Pacifica. ^The bar is long gone^, but in 1956 the Pacifica Tribune, described it as a large and homey space, with knick-nacks above a mahogany bar, a shuffle board, a dance floor and a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn was owned and run by Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> From what we understand then, after she got a divorce she was running the place by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the place was popular! Sometimes there were up to 500 patrons in a weekend. For a long time it catered mostly to locals and tourists on holiday at the beach, but then in 1955 and 56, the LGBT community made it \u003cem>their\u003c/em> spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> When the gay men started coming from San Francisco, she welcomed them. And she was non-judgmental. However, it’s obvious that somebody was not happy and did contact the sheriff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But before we can get to that night — the night of the Hazel’s Inn raid — we have to ask why here? Miles from San Francisco, hidden in a small town, far from any other gay nightlife, why was Hazel’s Inn the place that attracted hundreds of LGBTQ people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>To answer this question, I went to the archives at the GLBT historical society — where collections documenting the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Trans community are housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, I met Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd. She’s an oral historian with the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>I was professor of women and gender studies at San Francisco State for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She’s one of the few people who has researched queer nightlife in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> 1956, 90 persons, mostly men were booked at the San Mateo county jail…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>At the archives we read some of the newspaper clippings about Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> Suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She did a lot of her research back in the 1990s and was able to interview dozens of queer people who lived in the Bay Area in the 1940s and 50s. Most of them have since passed away, so her work and these archives are some of the last links to this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the 1940s, San Francisco already had a queer nightlife scene, but at the time it was illegal to be gay. And bars that were caught serving queer people… that was illegal too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> If you were not a legal kind of person, then you couldn’t like buy a drink in a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But the law changed in 1951— when the Black Cat Cafe, in San Francisco, had its liquor license suspended for serving members of the LGBT community. The owner appealed the decision to the California Supreme court. The case is known as Stouman vs. Riley and it’s a big moment in queer civil rights history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>The court agreed. And the ruling became one of the first civil rights protections for LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the first time, they had the protected right to assemble. Gay men and lesbian women could buy drinks at bars and hang out with other queer friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is as long as there were no homosexual acts taking place that were deemed “illegal or immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many legal decisions, it was a vague but powerful protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> I know it seems really regressive now, right? But the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t Status that was illegal, it was behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And so queer nightlife in the Bay Area blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> In the early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And really iconic gay bars came into the picture. The Black Cat Cafe was running again, Tommy’s Place and Ann’s 440 opened. And these places became sanctuaries for the LGBT community to be \u003cem>together. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There were maybe four or five quote unquote lesbian bars in North Beach in walking distance of each other at any point in time between like, let’s say, 1948 and 1955. So it’s like a really interesting community that evolved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And this was really important because in the 1950s it was still not super safe to be gay. Many queer folks were closeted by day in order to keep their jobs. But at night…at the bar…there was a freedom that didn’t really exist anywhere else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> And it was before the state caught wind of what was happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But then a panic started to take hold in the United States…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Are you a member of the communist conspiracy as of this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>A conservative mindset took hold in American politics and culture — ushering in a time of suspicion and fear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Our nation may very well die, and I ask you caused it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And quickly, LGBT people become \u003cu>targets\u003c/u> at the federal, state and local level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work, labeling them as having immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, in 1955 \u003cem>California\u003c/em> created a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control or the ABC. An agency whose sole job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral\u003c/em> codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from the moment the department of Alcoholic Beverage control was created a top priority for them was to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>Shut down the gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And they did this by finding ways around those vague protections won in the Stouman v. Riley case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While queer people were granted the right to assemble, “homosexual acts” were still illegal, so authorities started taking an interest in the specifics of what that meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There’s a question about like, well then what exactly are the behaviors that are illegal? Like, do you have to like see someone, having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about holding hands? What about dancing close? So all this stuff was like, then started being hashed out, you know, this is an illegal act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control started collaborating with a bunch of law enforcement agencies throughout the Bay Area to ferret out people engaged in those acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBT community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars, and they ended up down the coast, at Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound design of a raucous bar scene\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only testimonies about what happened on Feb. 19, 1956, the night that Hazel’s Inn was raided, come from court documents and hearings at the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described in detail what was happening at the bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That night, the dance floor was alive, and the bar was filled with around 200 patrons, mostly men. These men wrapped their arms around each other and embraced one another while dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also described how one patron sat on another man’s lap and how two other men held hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple embraced as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It sounds like a scene of queer joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music turns tense\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, 35 law enforcement agents stormed the bar — a mix of San Mateo county sheriff’s officers and ABC agents began arresting people. The sheriff jumped on to the bar and announced:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over:\u003c/strong> “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents. And one by one, agents picked out people they had seen showing queer affection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Boyd says that the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board had been watching Hazel’s Inn for months, gathering evidence and building a case that behavior there was “illegal and immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>They had undercover agents in the bars. And they would go in twos or threes and they would watch each other. And somebody would get an interested person, and then would sort of lead them on, until there was some kind of physical, sexual, or flirtatious engagement that involved touching. It was entrapment. And that was a common and acceptable practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Ninety people were arrested that night at Hazel’s Inn, including Hazel Nikola — the owner. The bar’s liquor license was quickly revoked for being quote “a resort for sexual perverts” and for serving someone underaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mass arrest caught the attention of a variety of civil rights groups, including the ACLU who represented 30 defendants. Most of those arrested were cleared of charges, but the damage had already been done. People were outed in the newspapers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There would be a list of the people and their address and sometimes their occupation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over: \u003c/strong>The San Mateo Times: Local persons arrested were: Iris Ann Glasgow, 24 years old. Clerk. 1515 James Street, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Many of these people were publicly named as “sexual perverts”. That often meant being ostracized or losing their job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> People were so fearful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cello music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>As for the bar, Hazel fought the revocation of her liquor license for\u003cem> two years \u003c/em>but the court ultimately sided with the ABC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> I think she was just really bitter about what happened here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the Pacifica Coastside museum, Laura reflected on what the raid did to Hazel Nikola.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> She lost her liquor license and things just kind of went downhill for her. You have that information on the thing. And she ended up, she ended closing. She was very, very bitter at the end. She felt like she was really an important part of the community and that they had kind of betrayed her. She left Sharp Park and went to live somewhere else. And never came back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the queer community, the effects were even more devastating. The Hazel’s Inn Raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the next 15 years. (Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses.) It was a strategy to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it didn’t work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this aggressive policing and repression, the gay bars never died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Queer patrons, and bartenders, and bar owners found ways to keep going. They found ways to spot surveillance in their bars, they organized and worked to keep the police out of their spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historian Dr. Boyd again:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> My takeaway from history as a historian is that during these times of repression. There’s cultural innovation that happens. You can’t really name it yet, right? But it’s taking shape you know, that there’s something coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>During those years of extreme repression, queer activists were making connections, organizing, and laying the groundwork for the next several decades of activism that would see LGBTQ rights expand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has changed a lot since the raid at Hazel’s Inn. But still, a fearless commitment to community and authenticity — the spirit that kept these gay bars alive — lives on here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Ana De Almeida Amaral. Featuring the voices of Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, Carly Severn, Christopher Beale and Paul Lancour for archival material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know that Bay Curious listeners help choose which questions we answer on the podcast? Each month we have a new voting round up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, with three fascinating questions to choose from. This month…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1: \u003c/strong>Did the Navy airship America crash land into several houses? What happened to the crew?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why is San Francisco home to so many federal and statewide courts? Why aren’t they in Sacramento or Los Angeles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I want to learn more about San Francisco upzoning and how people feel about it in the Richmond and Sunset districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cast your vote with one click at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Become a member today at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">kqed.org/donate\u003c/a>. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Matt Morales, Tim Olsen, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> has an international reputation as a haven of freedom and culture for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">LGBTQ+\u003c/a> community. And with good reason.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco elected \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11706248/40-years-after-assassinations-assessing-the-legacies-of-harvey-milk-and-george-moscone\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>, California’s first openly gay public official. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11876846/never-take-it-down-the-original-1978-rainbow-flag-returns-to-sf\">the birthplace of the rainbow pride flag\u003c/a>, now a global symbol. The city has also long had an iconic drag queen scene and legendary nightlife with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930323/san-francisco-gay-bars-history-silver-rail-febes-black-cat\">a long history of bustling gay\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929998/historic-lesbian-bars-san-francisco-mauds-pegs-front-anns-monas-440-tommy-vasu\">lesbian bars\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Bay Area was not always this way. The LGBTQ+ community had to fight for these freedoms and safe spaces. Often, this fight was against oppressive policing from the state and local government. And some important moments in that fight happened in unexpected places, like Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, whoa, it says this was in Pacifica! Why have I never heard of it?” Bay Curious listener Henry Lie asked. He’d stumbled across mention of a 1956 police raid at a bar called Hazel’s Inn, where nearly a hundred queer folks were arrested. He wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Progress and repression of LGBTQ+ rights\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco,” said Nan Alamilla Boyd, an oral historian at the UC Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. As a longtime researcher of San Francisco’s LGBTQ+ history, Boyd has interviewed dozens of queer individuals who frequented gay bars during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her interviews uncover stories of the Bay Area’s history, especially the repression queer people faced in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069459\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069459\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-1536x899.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building once housed Hazel’s Inn. This photo was taken in 1966, when the city condemned the building. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of The Pacifica Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these people [I interviewed] witnessed front row seats to [this repressive era], and kept being as out and proud as possible and survived to tell about it,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1951, the California State Board of Equalization revoked the liquor license of the Black Cat Cafe, a popular gay bar, because the establishment was “injurious to public morals.” The Black Cat owner, Sol Stouman, appealed the move to the California Supreme Court. The court ruled in his favor, affirming that the presence of LGBTQ+ people in a bar was allowable, as long as there were no “immoral acts” taking place. The case is known as Stoumen v. Reilly and many historians see it as the first legal victory for the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts,” Boyd explained. “I know it seems really regressive now, but the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t status that was illegal, it was behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the first time, LGBTQ+ people had the protected right to gather at bars without facing prosecution for simply being a queer person in public. And so queer nightlife blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were maybe four or five ‘lesbian bars’ in North Beach within walking distance of each other at any point in time between 1948 and 1955,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>But just a few years later, the U.S. government started targeting the LGBTQ+ community. Now known as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/state-department-gay-employees-outed-fired-lavender-scare\">Lavender Scare\u003c/a>, many of the freedoms enjoyed in the early 50s came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work for immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.” And in California, a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was created in 1955. Known as the ABC, its job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral \u003c/em>codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Things really changed in 1955,” Boyd said. The ABC began waging a war against gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency found ways to undermine the protections previously won by the LGBTQ+ community in Stouman v. Reilly. Since “homosexual acts” were still illegal, suddenly the state was very concerned about specific actions taking place in bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a question about what exactly [were] the behaviors that [were] illegal,” Boyd said. “Do you have to see someone having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about dancing close? So, all this stuff then started being hashed out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With each enforcement action against queer bar patrons, the ABC expanded the definition of illegal acts. Soon, even dancing with someone of the same sex was punishable. The ABC even collaborated with local law enforcement agencies to conduct undercover surveillance operations that identified and monitored LGBTQ gathering spots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe. And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBTQ+ community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars. The community ended up down the coast, where they made Hazel’s Inn their spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Hazel’s Inn raid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early hours of Feb. 19, 1956, a group of 35 ABC and San Mateo County Sheriff’s officers stormed into a full and bustling Hazel’s Inn. There were around 200 patrons present in the bar, mostly men, when the sheriff jumped onto the bar and announced, “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ninety people were arrested that night, including the bar’s owner, Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069461\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2125px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069461\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2125\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg 2125w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-2000x2409.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-160x193.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1275x1536.jpg 1275w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1700x2048.jpg 1700w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2125px) 100vw, 2125px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Coverage of the Hazel’s Inn raid from the San Francisco Chronicle in 1956. It was common, at the time, for newspapers to use derogatory language in reference to the LGBTQ community. \u003ccite>(The San Francisco Chronicle via Newsbank)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn had been under state surveillance for months, and patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents who had been watching them. One by one, agents picked out those they had seen showing queer affection. Most of those arrested faced vagrancy charges. Nikola’s liquor license was quickly revoked for knowingly hosting a hangout for queer people and for serving an underage person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-20-february-1956-smt-hazels-i/10556199/\">\u003cem>The San Mateo Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a> asked Sheriff Earl Whitmore about the raid, he said, “Let it be known that we are not going to tolerate gatherings of homosexuals in the county.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The full extent of the ABC’s operation at Hazel’s Inn became clear as the case was brought before\u003ca href=\"https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AHSI&u=glbths&id=GALE%7CMDRLJF555849529&v=2.1&it=r&sid=bookmark-AHSI&sPage=11&asid=6014d9b9\"> the ABC Board\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-court-of-appeal/1810632.html\">court\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In court documents, Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described the scene at Hazel’s Inn the night of the raid and in the months leading up to it. Strong described how one male patron sat on another man’s lap and how two others were seen holding hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple was seen embracing as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These scenes of queerness would be used in court to justify the revocation of Nikola’s liquor license for being a “resort for sexual perverts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While most of those arrested that night were cleared of charges, the damage had already been done. Newspapers caught wind of the raid, and patrons were publicly outed, with their names, occupations and home addresses published for all to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were so fearful,” Boyd said. “There were [LGBTQ+ people] who would never go out because they were afraid of getting arrested. And then [their] name would be in the paper and [their] life would be ruined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hazel’s Inn raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the following 15 years. Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses were all part of a strategy to push LGBTQ+ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Resistance amidst repression\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Looking back at this history of aggressive policing against queer people and their bars, it’s no surprise that queer nightlife continues to be central to the LGBTQ+ community. For many, gay bars were the only spaces they were afforded the freedom to be openly queer. They were also the battlegrounds where civil rights were won and lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the fight for LGBTQ+ rights continues. As the federal government uses its power to withhold \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049666/nowhere-else-to-go-sf-families-protest-kaisers-new-limits-on-gender-affirming-care\">gender-affirming healthcare\u003c/a> and to target\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12047432/us-sues-california-over-its-refusal-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-girls-sports\"> transgender youth in sports\u003c/a>, Boyd said it can be hard to keep hope alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12068581\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12068581\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nan Alamilla Boyd, a historian, poses for a portrait at the GLBT Historical Society Archives in San Francisco on Jan. 2, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The hits [to LGBTQ+ rights] keep coming and in many different ways,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, her work has taught her that in times of repression, powerful political organizing and cultural innovation can emerge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By the early 1960s, [queer] bartenders and the bar owners had pretty elaborate methods to resist the policing agencies,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They created a resistance movement powerful enough to outlast the government’s efforts to eradicate queer nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t really make cultural innovation illegal because it happens,” Boyd said. “It’s everything, everywhere, all at once. It’s the thing that’s our spirit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s because of that indomitable spirit that the Bay Area looks and feels the way it does today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>San Francisco and its surrounding Bay Area have long been known as a gay capital of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, it’s here, where the first lesbian civil rights group was formed, the Daughters of Bilitis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And where Harvey Milk became an iconic gay public official! [tape]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harvey Milk:\u003c/strong> I will fight to represent my constituents. I will fight to represent the city and county of San Francisco. I will fight to give those people who once walked away hope, so that those people will walk back in. Thank you very much. [clapping]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It was the birthplace of the Gay pride flag. And it’s where city hall is lit up in a rainbow for pride month. This is the Bay Area that our question asker, Henry Lie, knows well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music stops\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie: \u003c/strong>I’m originally from Pacifica…went to high school at Terranova High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry always thought of Pacifica as an extension of San Francisco — it’s just a few miles south, after all. And, there’s not a whole lot that surprises Henry about his hometown. That is until he learned about a moment in Pacifica’s history that left him with a ton of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> We have this museum.. I think I was there and saw like a footnote or something and it just said like, oh yeah, Hazel’s Inn raid where, you know, there was a large gathering of LGBTQ+ identifying people and a bunch of people were arrested, couple of people charged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry had stumbled across a forgotten moment in history — a massive police raid that took place in 1956, part of a crusade to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ominous music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local newspapers documented the raid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 1: \u003c/strong>San Francisco Examiner: Ninety persons, mostly men, were booked at the San Mateo County jail yesterday after a vice raid on a tavern suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 2: \u003c/strong>San Mateo Times: The raid, according to Sheriff Whitmore, “was to let homosexuals know we’re not going to tolerate their congregation in this county.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 3: \u003c/strong>Redwood City Tribune: Mrs. Nicola, owner of Hazel’s Inn, is charged with operating a resort for sexual deviates. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big questions began surfacing for Henry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> And I was like, whoa, I’ve never even heard of Hazel’s Inn. This says this was in Pacifica. Why have I never heard of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So he came to Bay Curious, hoping to find out more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Could you dive deeper into the Hazel’s Inn raid in Pacifica and the effects that it had on the LGBTQ plus community in the greater Bay area in the late 1950s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. This week, we’re going back to the gay bars of the 1950s to learn about a moment in time when the San Francisco Bay Area was far less welcoming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that coming right up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To dig deeper into Bay Area queer history, KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral takes us to Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Pacifica is a beautiful place, with sprawling views of the ocean and stunning beaches. It has that small town feel, complete with a\u003cem> tiny\u003c/em> museum showcasing its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This is our little museum…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Laura Del Rosso was born and raised in Pacifica, and serves as a docent and board member for the Pacifica Coastside Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This whole area around here was full of speakeasies, taverns, restaurants, and brothels during Prohibition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>It seems hard to imagine now, but this small town was once infamous for its nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso: \u003c/strong>Some people think that San Mateo County coast was actually the wettest place in the whole United States, meaning there was more booze here and in Half Moon Bay area than anywhere else in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>While the historical society has long been aware of the clandestine nightlife during Prohibition, it wasn’t until a few years ago that they started uncovering the history of a hushed queer nightlife scene that took hold right here, in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Jazzy music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Hazel’s Inn was a tavern in Sharp Park, now a neighborhood in Pacifica. ^The bar is long gone^, but in 1956 the Pacifica Tribune, described it as a large and homey space, with knick-nacks above a mahogany bar, a shuffle board, a dance floor and a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn was owned and run by Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> From what we understand then, after she got a divorce she was running the place by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the place was popular! Sometimes there were up to 500 patrons in a weekend. For a long time it catered mostly to locals and tourists on holiday at the beach, but then in 1955 and 56, the LGBT community made it \u003cem>their\u003c/em> spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> When the gay men started coming from San Francisco, she welcomed them. And she was non-judgmental. However, it’s obvious that somebody was not happy and did contact the sheriff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But before we can get to that night — the night of the Hazel’s Inn raid — we have to ask why here? Miles from San Francisco, hidden in a small town, far from any other gay nightlife, why was Hazel’s Inn the place that attracted hundreds of LGBTQ people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>To answer this question, I went to the archives at the GLBT historical society — where collections documenting the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Trans community are housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, I met Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd. She’s an oral historian with the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>I was professor of women and gender studies at San Francisco State for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She’s one of the few people who has researched queer nightlife in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> 1956, 90 persons, mostly men were booked at the San Mateo county jail…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>At the archives we read some of the newspaper clippings about Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> Suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She did a lot of her research back in the 1990s and was able to interview dozens of queer people who lived in the Bay Area in the 1940s and 50s. Most of them have since passed away, so her work and these archives are some of the last links to this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the 1940s, San Francisco already had a queer nightlife scene, but at the time it was illegal to be gay. And bars that were caught serving queer people… that was illegal too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> If you were not a legal kind of person, then you couldn’t like buy a drink in a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But the law changed in 1951— when the Black Cat Cafe, in San Francisco, had its liquor license suspended for serving members of the LGBT community. The owner appealed the decision to the California Supreme court. The case is known as Stouman vs. Riley and it’s a big moment in queer civil rights history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>The court agreed. And the ruling became one of the first civil rights protections for LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the first time, they had the protected right to assemble. Gay men and lesbian women could buy drinks at bars and hang out with other queer friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is as long as there were no homosexual acts taking place that were deemed “illegal or immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many legal decisions, it was a vague but powerful protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> I know it seems really regressive now, right? But the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t Status that was illegal, it was behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And so queer nightlife in the Bay Area blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> In the early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And really iconic gay bars came into the picture. The Black Cat Cafe was running again, Tommy’s Place and Ann’s 440 opened. And these places became sanctuaries for the LGBT community to be \u003cem>together. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There were maybe four or five quote unquote lesbian bars in North Beach in walking distance of each other at any point in time between like, let’s say, 1948 and 1955. So it’s like a really interesting community that evolved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And this was really important because in the 1950s it was still not super safe to be gay. Many queer folks were closeted by day in order to keep their jobs. But at night…at the bar…there was a freedom that didn’t really exist anywhere else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> And it was before the state caught wind of what was happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But then a panic started to take hold in the United States…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Are you a member of the communist conspiracy as of this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>A conservative mindset took hold in American politics and culture — ushering in a time of suspicion and fear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Our nation may very well die, and I ask you caused it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And quickly, LGBT people become \u003cu>targets\u003c/u> at the federal, state and local level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work, labeling them as having immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, in 1955 \u003cem>California\u003c/em> created a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control or the ABC. An agency whose sole job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral\u003c/em> codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from the moment the department of Alcoholic Beverage control was created a top priority for them was to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>Shut down the gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And they did this by finding ways around those vague protections won in the Stouman v. Riley case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While queer people were granted the right to assemble, “homosexual acts” were still illegal, so authorities started taking an interest in the specifics of what that meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There’s a question about like, well then what exactly are the behaviors that are illegal? Like, do you have to like see someone, having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about holding hands? What about dancing close? So all this stuff was like, then started being hashed out, you know, this is an illegal act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control started collaborating with a bunch of law enforcement agencies throughout the Bay Area to ferret out people engaged in those acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBT community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars, and they ended up down the coast, at Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound design of a raucous bar scene\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only testimonies about what happened on Feb. 19, 1956, the night that Hazel’s Inn was raided, come from court documents and hearings at the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described in detail what was happening at the bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That night, the dance floor was alive, and the bar was filled with around 200 patrons, mostly men. These men wrapped their arms around each other and embraced one another while dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also described how one patron sat on another man’s lap and how two other men held hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple embraced as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It sounds like a scene of queer joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music turns tense\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, 35 law enforcement agents stormed the bar — a mix of San Mateo county sheriff’s officers and ABC agents began arresting people. The sheriff jumped on to the bar and announced:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over:\u003c/strong> “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents. And one by one, agents picked out people they had seen showing queer affection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Boyd says that the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board had been watching Hazel’s Inn for months, gathering evidence and building a case that behavior there was “illegal and immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>They had undercover agents in the bars. And they would go in twos or threes and they would watch each other. And somebody would get an interested person, and then would sort of lead them on, until there was some kind of physical, sexual, or flirtatious engagement that involved touching. It was entrapment. And that was a common and acceptable practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Ninety people were arrested that night at Hazel’s Inn, including Hazel Nikola — the owner. The bar’s liquor license was quickly revoked for being quote “a resort for sexual perverts” and for serving someone underaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mass arrest caught the attention of a variety of civil rights groups, including the ACLU who represented 30 defendants. Most of those arrested were cleared of charges, but the damage had already been done. People were outed in the newspapers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There would be a list of the people and their address and sometimes their occupation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over: \u003c/strong>The San Mateo Times: Local persons arrested were: Iris Ann Glasgow, 24 years old. Clerk. 1515 James Street, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Many of these people were publicly named as “sexual perverts”. That often meant being ostracized or losing their job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> People were so fearful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cello music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>As for the bar, Hazel fought the revocation of her liquor license for\u003cem> two years \u003c/em>but the court ultimately sided with the ABC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> I think she was just really bitter about what happened here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the Pacifica Coastside museum, Laura reflected on what the raid did to Hazel Nikola.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> She lost her liquor license and things just kind of went downhill for her. You have that information on the thing. And she ended up, she ended closing. She was very, very bitter at the end. She felt like she was really an important part of the community and that they had kind of betrayed her. She left Sharp Park and went to live somewhere else. And never came back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the queer community, the effects were even more devastating. The Hazel’s Inn Raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the next 15 years. (Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses.) It was a strategy to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it didn’t work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this aggressive policing and repression, the gay bars never died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Queer patrons, and bartenders, and bar owners found ways to keep going. They found ways to spot surveillance in their bars, they organized and worked to keep the police out of their spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historian Dr. Boyd again:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> My takeaway from history as a historian is that during these times of repression. There’s cultural innovation that happens. You can’t really name it yet, right? But it’s taking shape you know, that there’s something coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>During those years of extreme repression, queer activists were making connections, organizing, and laying the groundwork for the next several decades of activism that would see LGBTQ rights expand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has changed a lot since the raid at Hazel’s Inn. But still, a fearless commitment to community and authenticity — the spirit that kept these gay bars alive — lives on here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Ana De Almeida Amaral. Featuring the voices of Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, Carly Severn, Christopher Beale and Paul Lancour for archival material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know that Bay Curious listeners help choose which questions we answer on the podcast? Each month we have a new voting round up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, with three fascinating questions to choose from. This month…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1: \u003c/strong>Did the Navy airship America crash land into several houses? What happened to the crew?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why is San Francisco home to so many federal and statewide courts? Why aren’t they in Sacramento or Los Angeles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I want to learn more about San Francisco upzoning and how people feel about it in the Richmond and Sunset districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cast your vote with one click at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Become a member today at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">kqed.org/donate\u003c/a>. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Matt Morales, Tim Olsen, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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