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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, Are We Doomed? Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are the chances that the internet could go down forever? How bad for humanity would it be if it did? And what would a shift back to the before-times look like? These are the kinds of questions “doom reporter” Ben Bradford tries to answer in his new podcast, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morgan and Ben discuss the scenarios that might lead to a long-term internet outage — from severed undersea cables to a massive solar storm. And they tackle the most pressing question of all: will influencers survive the internet apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7222381679\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben Bradford, journalist and host of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://doompod.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ben Bradford, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are We Doomed?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1893359212/episode/cHJ4XzE2ODU3XzAxYmFmM2NmLWU4ZWEtNDM0ZS05YTFlLTgyYzgzMjE1OGI3Yg?view=apps&sort=popularity\">We Try and Kill the Internet\u003c/a> — Ben Bradford, \u003ci>Are We Doomed?\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-explains-how-its-aws-outage-took-down-the-web/\">Amazon Explains How Its AWS Outage Took Down the Web\u003c/a> – Matt Burgess and Lily Hay Newman, \u003ci>WIRED \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/the-aws-outage-bricked-peoples-2-700-smartbeds/\">The AWS Outage Bricked People’s $2,700 Smartbeds\u003c/a> – Matthew Gault, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/complex-structure-supported-by-a-tiny-part\">Complex Structure Supported by a Tiny Part\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Know Your Meme \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2024/04/02/a-stealth-attack-came-close-to-compromising-the-worlds-computers\">A Stealth Attack Came Close to Compromising the World’s Computers\u003c/a> – \u003ci>The Economist\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you like these deep dives? Whether you call yourself a Tabby or a Tab Head or part of the Tab Hive, if you’re a fan of Close All Tabs, it would be so, so helpful if you could rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening to us. Under our watch, every tab in the land will be closed, eventually. I mean, I have like 15 open right now. Okay, let’s get to the show\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> Okay, not to brag, but last year Close All Tabs won a pretty special award, the Media Literate Media Award from NAML. That’s the National Association for Media Literacy. According to them, we’ve helped listeners better understand the internet, which is pretty cool. Ben Bradford, a veteran public radio journalist, also won the award. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently talked with him, and obviously had to bring it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thanks so much for joining us, Ben. Um, to start off, we both received NAMLE awards at the same time, which means that our takes are always correct. We are so media literate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly right. We- it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been proven. We’re credentialed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I have a little plaque that says, “My takes are always correct.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ben has long been fascinated by politics and history and climate and disaster, which means he spends a lot of time thinking about the end of the world. And now he’s launched a new project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Ben Bradford, and I am the creator and host of a new podcast that’s called Are We Doomed?, which is the cheery title for a show about the end of the world. And we look at practical threats to society and to humanity. We look at internet hysteria. We look at, like, our pop culture obsession with the end of the world, and try to find some hope in the darkness. And I think that we actually do that, which has been very fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, we’re actually doing something a little different than our usual deep dives. You see, Are We Doomed? recently explored my personal doomsday scenario. What happens if the internet goes out forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would really suck for Close All Tabs, a show that literally revolves around the internet. It would also suck for me, someone who’s built an entire career around covering the online world. But this also goes way deeper than just a job. There are so many habits ingrained in my life that depend on internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not talking mindless scrolling. I mean daily functions, like LA earthquake Twitter\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I live in Los Angeles, so does Ben, and every time there’s even the slightest rumble afoot, I run straight to social media to check if it was indeed an earthquake. Despite its name, the concept of LA earthquake Twitter transcends a single social media platform. It’s the communal experience of everyone in Southern California going online to see if anyone else felt that rumble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that an earthquake? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time it’s not, but there have been times when some earthquake hobbyist on social media confirms it before any news outlet does. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The earthquake one is funny ’cause I definitely do that, and I also get… You know how people get phantom vibrations for their phone- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where they think that their phone is buzzing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I get that for earthquakes. I don’t know if you ever get that- Yeah … where I’m like, “Man, was that an earthquake?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, you know, how will I ever be sure if, if I can’t check Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You need it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This isn’t a frivolous concern, okay? The entire infrastructure of modern warning systems relies on internet connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For minor shakes, I’ll run to LA Earthquake Twitter, but if a big one’s coming, I’ll probably get a push alert from ShakeAlert first. That’s the West Coast Earthquake Warning System. It calculates the magnitude of potential earthquakes and where they might hit, and then automatically sends alerts to that area, which trigger safety actions like slowing down trains, shutting off elevators, and turning on hospital generators, and hopefully with enough time to get people to safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But to do all that, ShakeAlert gathers data from a sprawling network of sensors transmitted electronically online. The algorithms that figure out if an earthquake is actually dangerous process from the cloud. And to actually send this information to people, obviously the system needs the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Internet connection is baked into every step of the process. It’s why the very concept of the internet going dark is such a terrifying doomsday event. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have become so reliant on this very complicated technology, and that happens in various ways throughout human history. I think we can safely say there has not been one as complicated, and that requires so many other things to keep running. I mean, you know, from, uh, electricity to infrastructure to software. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a self-described doom reporter, this kept Ben up at night. LA Earthquake Twitter and the complex warning system behind it is just one example. The infrastructure of society is internet based. Our drinking water processing sites, our food supply chains, our hospital equipment, these all rely on systems that can only function with internet access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for his podcast, Are We Doomed?, Ben looked into it. I said we’re doing things a little differently for this one, right? Today, Ben and I are both going to take you on a deep dive as we attempt to get to the bottom of some questions you might be asking yourself right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Has the internet ever gone dark before? What kind of doomsday scenarios are we looking at here? Could we survive? And the question I was dying to ask, how likely is this really? Buckle up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open our first tab. How important is the internet to our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like my fear of losing LA earthquake Twitter, this question feels frivolous. But like the warning system behind it, losing the internet will cut a lot deeper than you might think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so then the question becomes, one, how reliant are we actually? What ability do we have to roll back if this thing were to leave us, and not for an inconvenient couple of hours, not for a day, but for longer? And then two, is there a way for that to happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So you actually looked at a real world, um, case study of this that took place in northern Arizona in 2015. What happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So 2015, the internet went out in Flagstaff and surrounding areas, and it is an interesting case study because of just how many things suddenly didn’t work and what people could figure out how to do and what they couldn’t figure out how to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s an excerpt from this episode of Are We Doomed? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Northern Arizona, TV screens cut out. ATMs broke down. Credit card readers, gone. Cell phone service, gone. 911, jammed. Banks, courthouses, bars, you name it, in disarray\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What had happened was this big internet cable that delivers internet to that area of Arizona had been cut by copper thieves probably looking for copper wire. And so it’s sort of a small vulnerability. The cable’s just out there. It stretches hundreds of miles. You go, you saw in, you take the copper, and it has this really dramatic effect.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From emergency services to sewer systems, it became clear that this one cable was foundational to the infrastructure that kept northern Arizona going. One reporter called it the area’s digital umbilical cord. This outage only lasted half a day and affected a 100-mile stretch of communities. It makes me wonder, what if the internet went down for the whole world, and it lasted much longer, even forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, but the situation in Arizona happened over 10 years ago. Surely society as a whole has learned from that experience and developed better backup plans since then, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one of the questions that we looked at and didn’t thrill me because I don’t think that I loved the answers to it. As we embrace the internet more as a fundamental technology, and we build more things on top of it, we, we do simply have less backups. And so I remember talking to a friend of mine, I just pinged him while I was working on a story. Um, he’s the medical director in an emergency department at a major hospital, and I said, “Hey, if the internet went down, and not for a day, but for a while, what would it mean for you?” And he said, “We’d be out of luck.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s how we submit prescriptions. That is how we look up patients. That’s how we transfer them between places.” And so it’s funny because hospitals have backup generators, but they don’t have a backup internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m thinking of that scene in The Pit when, uh, the hospital systems go down because of a cyber attack and- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all these doctors have to suddenly go back to clipboards and charting by hand and, like, reading manual, uh, test results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from The Pitt]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is how we rolled when I was a resident. Was that in the 1900s? Yeah, when charts were written by candlelight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The part of it that I think is sort of fascinating is just how expansive that question becomes. Things that surprised me are, like, the degree to which our water treatment centers rely on network connectivity. There are reports that have been written, federal government inspector general reports or GAO reports, that look at the vulnerability of water treatment centers to cyber attacks, for instance, and that’s not great.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you would prefer that your water not be hacked, and I don’t know that we wanna create a system where we rely on our water where it’s vulnerable to hacking. Like, that’s sort of a strange thing. Uh- Well, who thought? Totally, and then it becomes, okay, in our sort of galaxy brain scenario where the whole internet goes down or this technology just becomes unfeasible, it’s like, yeah, your drinking water is degraded, if available at all, and that’s pretty wild. And it depends on the area that you’re in, and there’s some nuance to that, but it shows the extent to what we’re looking at here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it seems like a lot of these scenarios that we’ve talked about, the fictional one in The Pit or, you know- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the one in Arizona, like, all these scenarios have an end date or an end time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they will come to an end and that’s comforting. But in the event that the whole world’s internet does go dark, I mean, what would happen? Like, genuinely, would we die without the internet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can’t predict the- … the future or the hypothetical of it, but I will say that I think it would be massively disruptive for a longer amount of time than we might think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When it comes to survival, the main questions are over food and water. Our food system is incredibly reliant on the internet. Crops don’t rely on the internet to grow, but the cargo shipping systems that get that food into our grocery stores do, and these systems also send necessary supplies to the farms that grow our food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these systems rely on the internet and our ability to communicate through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And while I am confident in humanity’s resilience and cleverness in being able to figure out workarounds, I think that the massive scale of the disruption, I mean, what it would do just to basically to money, you know, your stock market crashes, um, people can’t get access to their money. How often are you looking at paper bills, and what would those do for you in that world where so many other aspects of the financial system are down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start to get into this real hard-to-imagine world, right? But if you start kind of taking those individual pieces of hospitals and water treatment centers and the supply chain, and you add it all together, you get something that looks pretty dystopian and a lot like an apocalypse movie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that is, I think, what you’re dealing with in the near term if the internet goes down and doesn’t come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna be honest, it’s really hard to not, like, hear this and then, want to, I don’t know, buy baby goat to move to Ohi, which is- Right. Yeah … like the furthest, most rural place I can imagine. Like- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before Ben and I get you all worked up into a panic, take a breath. Humanity survived for thousands of years before the internet, and if we had to, we could do it again, even if I personally would really rather not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna dive into these offline doomsday scenarios after a quick break, but first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Okay, after the break, could the internet really go down for good?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Let’s open a new tab. Could the internet go dark forever?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I posed this question to Ben, and if it’s any small comfort, he says it’s actually a lot harder to make that happen than you might think, and that’s because of the way this physical infrastructure is built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how we call it the World Wide Web? The phrase is actually kind of literal. There are these undersea cables that span all across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is this sort of spider web connecting all the different continents in different ways, and the internet runs through all of them. If you cut one, the software of the internet figures out how to reroute the information. So when you think about Northern Arizona, that happens to be one area where there was sort of a choke point, one sort of big pipe connecting the internet to that region, and there are other places like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw several years ago a volcanic eruption in the ocean, uh, near Tonga. An undersea volcano blew through the ocean’s floor. Smoke and ash erupted into the sky. The force of the explosion unleashed a devastating tsunami, and that explosion also ripped through the underwater cable that delivers internet to Tonga.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Without communication, other countries struggled to provide relief. Tongans couldn’t access outside money. Much of the nation relies on remittances from family off the islands. Those stopped. In that case, it was a natural disaster that cut off Tonga from the internet. But people do attack undersea cables, and it’s hard to prove sabotage, although countries are constantly accusing each other, because the cables are unprotected, innocent, perfect for attack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was another sort of look at just how disruptive this kind of thing can be. So internet cables being severed can be a problem, but because the internet is decentralized and because the software is designed to find where it’s not working and then reroute, it’s generally not that big of a problem. One pipe goes down, and you can repair it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so Tonga was sort of like the worst-case scenario of that, and even then, the pipe gets repaired relatively quickly, and there are some workarounds you can put in place in the meantime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the Cold War, technologists started thinking about how to build a telecommunication system that could survive nuclear war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Legend goes that the internet was built off of that, and so that’s that sort of decentralized network. One part goes down, and you imagine a spiderweb with, like, electricity running through it. Electricity runs through all the spiderweb, but one little tendril of spiderweb gets severed, and the electricity still courses through the rest of it, and that’s essentially how information flows through the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if you were to go and sever a lot of the undersea cables, it would be a problem. It would create slowdowns, but any places that the pipes were still running to would still work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is comforting, simply cutting the cables connecting our world wouldn’t instantly doom us. But there is another theory of an event that could fry our internet, solar storms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Solar storms are sudden bursts of energy from the sun with enough radiation that could affect our planet’s electrical systems. This has actually already happened on Earth in 1859. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you go back to the 1850s, the biggest technology of the day was the telegraph, and there was this event– it’s called the Carrington Event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of a sudden, around the world, telegraph machines start going crazy. Telegraph stations in some cases are lighting on fire because they’re overloading. People are unplugging their telegraphs, and the telegraphs are still chattering away, and they don’t know what’s happening, right? They think they’re possessed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The night sky lit up like it was daytime. Some people thought it was daytime, and so they went to church. Uh, it was a solar storm. It was the biggest solar storm that we’ve had in recorded history \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And since 1859, we have become much more reliant on electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are some questions about if we were to be hit with an equivalent event to that one back when there was telegraph, how well the internet would stand up. Like that seems to me like the best thing to blow out the hardware of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we have a government office called the Space Weather Center. It’s part of the, uh, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. You have utilities that are starting to take that threat more seriously. So you have some work being done, and I think the hope would be that by the time we have another one of those events, that we’re prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So from what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like the internet is actually a lot more resilient than you might think, than the, the doomsday people might be worried about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel really good about it. The two things that I worry about are, um, I think that there are some software vulnerabilities. There’s a famous, uh, web comic, uh, from XKCD.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, it’s Randall Munroe, who’s a former NASA rocket scientist, and just is, just absolutely brilliant, and he does these web comics. And there’s a very famous one that he does about the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s titled Dependency. So this image shows a drawing of a giant intricate tower of blocks stacked in increasingly complicated ways as you move toward the top. Above it, there’s text that says, “All modern digital infrastructure.” This is like Jenga from hell. At the bottom is a comically thin block holding up all the others. The caption says, “A project some random person in Nebraska has been thanklessly maintaining since 2003.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The artist posted Dependency in 2020, and it’s become a meme among software engineers who edit the tower higher and higher with even more precarious blocks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, there’s this one edit that has the blocks off-kilter, balanced on a lever labeled AI. The tiny block propping up the whole tower is labeled unpaid open source developers, while an angry bird flies toward the structure, ready to topple it over. That one is labeled whatever Microsoft is doing. The point is the internet as we know it is this tower, cobbled together, perpetually built upon by hobbyists doing it for free and companies that have their own agenda.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so if people were to identify those particular things, you could potentially knock them out and have unforeseen outages. Now, would that outage create, you know, the endless lack of internet? It seems like probably not. And it seems like people are clever and people are really good at hacking things in. But that’s one of the other vulnerabilities that we saw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it seems like it doesn’t necessarily need to be some kind of bad actor going after that one thing a guy built in his basement in 2003 to take down huge parts of the internet. You know, I’m thinking of the AWS outage last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, for listeners, AWS, or Amazon Web Services, it’s the cloud computing platform that pretty much everyone uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the backbone of the internet. Last year, a DNS error brought it all down. DNS, domain name system. It’s the way the internet translates names to numbers, like translating the human language into one computers can understand. Some call DNS the phone book of the internet. Imagine all the contacts in your phone get wiped out, but your whole job is making calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re the cog that keeps your whole machine running. So without your phone book, everything comes grinding to a halt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This led to a cascading comedy of errors that brought down, like, entire chunks of the internet. Like Ring cameras were down, online banking services went dark, my Roomba wouldn’t turn on because it couldn’t- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Your Roomba? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My Roomba actually went down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, obviously you can’t vacuum if you can’t use the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Well, even worse, it kept turning on and then getting lost, and then trying to get back to its dock, but it couldn’t find anything, and I was like, “Stop turning on.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’d you do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I literally turned it upside down like a bug. Oh my God. It was so annoying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, people’s smart beds went down and suddenly changed to, like, 100 degrees overnight, or it s- automatically set alarms off- Mm-hmm … in the middle of the night. It, it’s like parts of society just kind of came to a halt because of this one bug.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People have apartments they can’t get into, uh- Literally … unless there’s network connectivity. It… Literally, it’s like our whole lives are, like, smart devices now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the event of a real doomsday scenario, what does last year’s AWS outage tell us about society’s ability to function without even parts of the internet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think that that, again, is one of those examples that shows two sides of what we’re talking about here. It shows the level of disruption, and it also shows some of those pain points. Experts worry about the centralization of the internet because that becomes a potential vulnerability where one company goes down, one company has a bug like Amazon, and all of a sudden nothing works.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that has only continued to build because 10, 15 years ago, if you were starting a business and it related in any way to the internet, you would buy your own servers, and you would usually host your own servers. But companies began to offer cloud services, and only a few companies are the big ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AWS, Google has one, Oracle has one, and that is where almost all businesses now reside. So now you’ve again got this sort of larger vulnerability, and there’s a lot of security that they have, but things can go wrong ’cause they’re complicated. So the AWS outage is such a good example of that, and it shows you the reach that just that one company has in over all kinds of other things that we wouldn’t think are connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a stark reminder that entire swaths of the internet depend on just a handful of tech giants. This centralization is not ideal when one of those companies has a problem, like a tiny block propping up a precarious and ever-growing tower of digital infrastructure. One vulnerability could cause it to all come tumbling down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The only other element that I wonder if we should talk about at all when we talk about the, the software side of things is, of course, like the big new player here is AI. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve got something like, you know, Claude Mythos, which has been hyped up as something that can find vulnerabilities that nobody has found in software. And I think that there is a question of as AI continues to advance, if this is a thing that seems to be good at, it seems to be good at coding, it seems to be useful for that, can it help people find more vulnerabilities? Does that add to our vulnerability on the software side? And I don’t think we know yet, but I mean, certainly to me as doom reporter guy, I’m like, that doesn’t seem ideal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’ve talked about the ways the internet could feasibly be taken down, whether it’s a solar storm or a software bug. What would the world look like if it really did go down for good, if we were all forced offline and had to figure out how to make it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab, Surviving the Internet Apocalypse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practical reality of like, oh, if the internet goes down, like we’ve talked about, it’s so much more deeply embedded in every aspect of like society and culture and our lives. What would a return to the before times actually look like? Is there any going back? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I think that, uh, in some ways it’s like we’ve done it before, we could do it again. And we have examples from history of civilizations collapsing where the whole, again, sort of supply chain of a massive area of the world fell apart. And not to be the guy that talks about Rome, um, but that is one example, I’m sorry. Uh, where, you know, you had this sort of kind of incredible amount of trade going around the Mediterranean, supply chains that really, you know, brought things from the Middle East all the way to Europe and back, and that falls apart. And places figured out how to continue to survive, and they became less reliant on large trade routes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that if the internet, which is this big connector of societies, fell apart, we would figure it out. It probably would require some reliance on figuring out how to go local. Uh, it would present some major challenges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that like it’s hard to understate the level of challenges it would create because I do think things like figuring out how to get food to the places, figuring out how to get the things that grow the food to the right places is all a major challenge and a disruption for a matter of months, even if we could ultimately circumvent that, would be an issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m pretty confident we’d figure it out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you ever camping and you’re in an area where your phone doesn’t get service, really quickly you put your phone away, and you kind of forget about it, and it becomes a non-issue because it’s just not there anymore. Whether we’re talking about Doom or we’re talking about just like everyday tasks, people kind of live their lives with what’s available to them. So I think that that would be true in an internet-less world. I think it would be true in a powerless world, a world where there wasn’t electricity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of those would be less comfortable. All of them would be worse in certain ways. I’m not rooting for any of those. But yeah, I have kind of like good optimism in humanity’s ability to, to figure those things out, just not without suffering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am wondering, like from your perspective, like, you know, you are a tech reporter, you are much more immersed in this side of things, and I’m just wondering, you know, what struck you about this story, if anything, that I might not have thought of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it’s funny, I, I started out reporting on the creator economy and memes and like influencers. Like That was kind of like the first jobs I had. I did have this thought of like, okay, society collapses, will influencers continue influencing? Will they just become local, you know, town criers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Will they become the person who’s like in the great market where everyone’s bartering again, where they’re like, “Everyone needs to get on this.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I did have this thought of like, hmm, I bet, you know, all these current influencers and their ring lights, they’re gonna find a way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have an upcoming episode that looks at what a post-apocalypse might actually look like. How would it be different from what we see in the films, and what would you actually need probably to survive a post-apocalypse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as far as we can tell, in historic events that resemble today’s apocalypse scenarios, some society totally fractured, massive death, whatever. Um, I just said massive death whatever, and I regret that. But, um- … you know, in real big tragic scenarios, people do not flee to their bunkers. They come together and they reform communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there are hard skills that seem to be useful like being able to grow food seems to be very useful. But there’s an argument that we hear that the most useful thing is communication, that it’s leading people to be able to work together. And I don’t know whether an influencer is like the best skill set to lead people and bring people together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But certainly in terms of having an authoritative voice that people will listen to, that skill set might be really useful. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, hey, I can’t wait till the apocalypse when we’re all just eating berries and someone’s like, “Oh, this berry’s the best one. Believe me.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Here’s why I use it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. After all of this reporting, um, as the now voice of doom scenarios, in this kind of like, I don’t know, mental ranking that you have of like this is the worst thing that could happen, where does the internet going down worldwide fall in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is not high up on the list of things that I worry about. It is an example of a black swan event, something that essentially is not in any planning, that we consider to be sort of impregnable. So I think it’s worth considering from the perspective of what if it’s not? So this one feels very solvable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels to me like a thing that people are thinking about to some extent, that we could take more seriously, that we should consider, but that we shouldn’t be like stressing about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yes, the internet going down is a possible doomsday event, but the likelihood of it happening is comparatively low compared to other apocalyptic scenarios, and if it does happen, we’ll figure out ways to survive it. That being said, Ben, as a doomsday reporter, thinks about this stuff a lot, and there are a few situations that do seriously worry him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big four, according to him: AI, nuclear war, climate change, pandemics. But those last three are way out of my scope of a deep dive. To hear more about those scenarios, you should check out Are We Doomed? You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll link to Ben’s episode about killing the internet, and some useful reading, if you’re interested in opening even more tabs about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as usual, if you’re really that hungry for more, you can stick around after the credits for some bonus content. Okay, but for now, let’s close all these tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral and Chris Egusa. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva, editor Chris Hambrick, and audio engineer Brendan Willard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts, and Ethan Toven Lindsay is our editor-in-chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also, by the way, because we’re both running podcasts, uh, the fact that there is no podcast without the internet because that’s the way audio is shared- … that seems like a big problem for both of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m, you know, I think out of habit if the internet went down, I would just be, like, alone in my closet talking into a hairbrush, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Bradford:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. That’s bleak.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
"title": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient?",
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"headTitle": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-the-bay-areas-gay-bars-became-a-battleground-for-lgtbq-rights-in-the-1950s",
"title": "How the Bay Area’s Gay Bars Became a Battleground for LGBTQ+ Rights in the 1950s",
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"headTitle": "How the Bay Area’s Gay Bars Became a Battleground for LGBTQ+ Rights in the 1950s | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> has an international reputation as a haven of freedom and culture for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">LGBTQ+\u003c/a> community. And with good reason.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco elected \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11706248/40-years-after-assassinations-assessing-the-legacies-of-harvey-milk-and-george-moscone\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>, California’s first openly gay public official. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11876846/never-take-it-down-the-original-1978-rainbow-flag-returns-to-sf\">the birthplace of the rainbow pride flag\u003c/a>, now a global symbol. The city has also long had an iconic drag queen scene and legendary nightlife with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930323/san-francisco-gay-bars-history-silver-rail-febes-black-cat\">a long history of bustling gay\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929998/historic-lesbian-bars-san-francisco-mauds-pegs-front-anns-monas-440-tommy-vasu\">lesbian bars\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Bay Area was not always this way. The LGBTQ+ community had to fight for these freedoms and safe spaces. Often, this fight was against oppressive policing from the state and local government. And some important moments in that fight happened in unexpected places, like Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, whoa, it says this was in Pacifica! Why have I never heard of it?” Bay Curious listener Henry Lie asked. He’d stumbled across mention of a 1956 police raid at a bar called Hazel’s Inn, where nearly a hundred queer folks were arrested. He wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Progress and repression of LGBTQ+ rights\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco,” said Nan Alamilla Boyd, an oral historian at the UC Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. As a longtime researcher of San Francisco’s LGBTQ+ history, Boyd has interviewed dozens of queer individuals who frequented gay bars during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her interviews uncover stories of the Bay Area’s history, especially the repression queer people faced in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069459\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069459\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-1536x899.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building once housed Hazel’s Inn. This photo was taken in 1966, when the city condemned the building. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of The Pacifica Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these people [I interviewed] witnessed front row seats to [this repressive era], and kept being as out and proud as possible and survived to tell about it,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1951, the California State Board of Equalization revoked the liquor license of the Black Cat Cafe, a popular gay bar, because the establishment was “injurious to public morals.” The Black Cat owner, Sol Stouman, appealed the move to the California Supreme Court. The court ruled in his favor, affirming that the presence of LGBTQ+ people in a bar was allowable, as long as there were no “immoral acts” taking place. The case is known as Stoumen v. Reilly and many historians see it as the first legal victory for the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts,” Boyd explained. “I know it seems really regressive now, but the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t status that was illegal, it was behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the first time, LGBTQ+ people had the protected right to gather at bars without facing prosecution for simply being a queer person in public. And so queer nightlife blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were maybe four or five ‘lesbian bars’ in North Beach within walking distance of each other at any point in time between 1948 and 1955,” Boyd said.[aside postID=news_12029551 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250205-WildSideWest-21-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg']But just a few years later, the U.S. government started targeting the LGBTQ+ community. Now known as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/state-department-gay-employees-outed-fired-lavender-scare\">Lavender Scare\u003c/a>, many of the freedoms enjoyed in the early 50s came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work for immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.” And in California, a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was created in 1955. Known as the ABC, its job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral \u003c/em>codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Things really changed in 1955,” Boyd said. The ABC began waging a war against gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency found ways to undermine the protections previously won by the LGBTQ+ community in Stouman v. Reilly. Since “homosexual acts” were still illegal, suddenly the state was very concerned about specific actions taking place in bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a question about what exactly [were] the behaviors that [were] illegal,” Boyd said. “Do you have to see someone having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about dancing close? So, all this stuff then started being hashed out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With each enforcement action against queer bar patrons, the ABC expanded the definition of illegal acts. Soon, even dancing with someone of the same sex was punishable. The ABC even collaborated with local law enforcement agencies to conduct undercover surveillance operations that identified and monitored LGBTQ gathering spots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe. And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBTQ+ community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars. The community ended up down the coast, where they made Hazel’s Inn their spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Hazel’s Inn raid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early hours of Feb. 19, 1956, a group of 35 ABC and San Mateo County Sheriff’s officers stormed into a full and bustling Hazel’s Inn. There were around 200 patrons present in the bar, mostly men, when the sheriff jumped onto the bar and announced, “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ninety people were arrested that night, including the bar’s owner, Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069461\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2125px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069461\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2125\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg 2125w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-2000x2409.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-160x193.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1275x1536.jpg 1275w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1700x2048.jpg 1700w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2125px) 100vw, 2125px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Coverage of the Hazel’s Inn raid from the San Francisco Chronicle in 1956. It was common, at the time, for newspapers to use derogatory language in reference to the LGBTQ community. \u003ccite>(The San Francisco Chronicle via Newsbank)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn had been under state surveillance for months, and patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents who had been watching them. One by one, agents picked out those they had seen showing queer affection. Most of those arrested faced vagrancy charges. Nikola’s liquor license was quickly revoked for knowingly hosting a hangout for queer people and for serving an underage person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-20-february-1956-smt-hazels-i/10556199/\">\u003cem>The San Mateo Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a> asked Sheriff Earl Whitmore about the raid, he said, “Let it be known that we are not going to tolerate gatherings of homosexuals in the county.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The full extent of the ABC’s operation at Hazel’s Inn became clear as the case was brought before\u003ca href=\"https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AHSI&u=glbths&id=GALE%7CMDRLJF555849529&v=2.1&it=r&sid=bookmark-AHSI&sPage=11&asid=6014d9b9\"> the ABC Board\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-court-of-appeal/1810632.html\">court\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In court documents, Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described the scene at Hazel’s Inn the night of the raid and in the months leading up to it. Strong described how one male patron sat on another man’s lap and how two others were seen holding hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple was seen embracing as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These scenes of queerness would be used in court to justify the revocation of Nikola’s liquor license for being a “resort for sexual perverts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While most of those arrested that night were cleared of charges, the damage had already been done. Newspapers caught wind of the raid, and patrons were publicly outed, with their names, occupations and home addresses published for all to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were so fearful,” Boyd said. “There were [LGBTQ+ people] who would never go out because they were afraid of getting arrested. And then [their] name would be in the paper and [their] life would be ruined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hazel’s Inn raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the following 15 years. Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses were all part of a strategy to push LGBTQ+ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Resistance amidst repression\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Looking back at this history of aggressive policing against queer people and their bars, it’s no surprise that queer nightlife continues to be central to the LGBTQ+ community. For many, gay bars were the only spaces they were afforded the freedom to be openly queer. They were also the battlegrounds where civil rights were won and lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the fight for LGBTQ+ rights continues. As the federal government uses its power to withhold \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049666/nowhere-else-to-go-sf-families-protest-kaisers-new-limits-on-gender-affirming-care\">gender-affirming healthcare\u003c/a> and to target\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12047432/us-sues-california-over-its-refusal-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-girls-sports\"> transgender youth in sports\u003c/a>, Boyd said it can be hard to keep hope alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12068581\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12068581\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nan Alamilla Boyd, a historian, poses for a portrait at the GLBT Historical Society Archives in San Francisco on Jan. 2, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The hits [to LGBTQ+ rights] keep coming and in many different ways,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, her work has taught her that in times of repression, powerful political organizing and cultural innovation can emerge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By the early 1960s, [queer] bartenders and the bar owners had pretty elaborate methods to resist the policing agencies,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They created a resistance movement powerful enough to outlast the government’s efforts to eradicate queer nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t really make cultural innovation illegal because it happens,” Boyd said. “It’s everything, everywhere, all at once. It’s the thing that’s our spirit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s because of that indomitable spirit that the Bay Area looks and feels the way it does today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12063643 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/251008-GirlintheFishbowl-01-BL.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>San Francisco and its surrounding Bay Area have long been known as a gay capital of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, it’s here, where the first lesbian civil rights group was formed, the Daughters of Bilitis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And where Harvey Milk became an iconic gay public official! [tape]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harvey Milk:\u003c/strong> I will fight to represent my constituents. I will fight to represent the city and county of San Francisco. I will fight to give those people who once walked away hope, so that those people will walk back in. Thank you very much. [clapping]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It was the birthplace of the Gay pride flag. And it’s where city hall is lit up in a rainbow for pride month. This is the Bay Area that our question asker, Henry Lie, knows well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music stops\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie: \u003c/strong>I’m originally from Pacifica…went to high school at Terranova High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry always thought of Pacifica as an extension of San Francisco — it’s just a few miles south, after all. And, there’s not a whole lot that surprises Henry about his hometown. That is until he learned about a moment in Pacifica’s history that left him with a ton of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> We have this museum.. I think I was there and saw like a footnote or something and it just said like, oh yeah, Hazel’s Inn raid where, you know, there was a large gathering of LGBTQ+ identifying people and a bunch of people were arrested, couple of people charged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry had stumbled across a forgotten moment in history — a massive police raid that took place in 1956, part of a crusade to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ominous music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local newspapers documented the raid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 1: \u003c/strong>San Francisco Examiner: Ninety persons, mostly men, were booked at the San Mateo County jail yesterday after a vice raid on a tavern suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 2: \u003c/strong>San Mateo Times: The raid, according to Sheriff Whitmore, “was to let homosexuals know we’re not going to tolerate their congregation in this county.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 3: \u003c/strong>Redwood City Tribune: Mrs. Nicola, owner of Hazel’s Inn, is charged with operating a resort for sexual deviates. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big questions began surfacing for Henry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> And I was like, whoa, I’ve never even heard of Hazel’s Inn. This says this was in Pacifica. Why have I never heard of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So he came to Bay Curious, hoping to find out more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Could you dive deeper into the Hazel’s Inn raid in Pacifica and the effects that it had on the LGBTQ plus community in the greater Bay area in the late 1950s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. This week, we’re going back to the gay bars of the 1950s to learn about a moment in time when the San Francisco Bay Area was far less welcoming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that coming right up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To dig deeper into Bay Area queer history, KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral takes us to Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Pacifica is a beautiful place, with sprawling views of the ocean and stunning beaches. It has that small town feel, complete with a\u003cem> tiny\u003c/em> museum showcasing its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This is our little museum…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Laura Del Rosso was born and raised in Pacifica, and serves as a docent and board member for the Pacifica Coastside Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This whole area around here was full of speakeasies, taverns, restaurants, and brothels during Prohibition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>It seems hard to imagine now, but this small town was once infamous for its nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso: \u003c/strong>Some people think that San Mateo County coast was actually the wettest place in the whole United States, meaning there was more booze here and in Half Moon Bay area than anywhere else in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>While the historical society has long been aware of the clandestine nightlife during Prohibition, it wasn’t until a few years ago that they started uncovering the history of a hushed queer nightlife scene that took hold right here, in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Jazzy music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Hazel’s Inn was a tavern in Sharp Park, now a neighborhood in Pacifica. ^The bar is long gone^, but in 1956 the Pacifica Tribune, described it as a large and homey space, with knick-nacks above a mahogany bar, a shuffle board, a dance floor and a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn was owned and run by Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> From what we understand then, after she got a divorce she was running the place by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the place was popular! Sometimes there were up to 500 patrons in a weekend. For a long time it catered mostly to locals and tourists on holiday at the beach, but then in 1955 and 56, the LGBT community made it \u003cem>their\u003c/em> spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> When the gay men started coming from San Francisco, she welcomed them. And she was non-judgmental. However, it’s obvious that somebody was not happy and did contact the sheriff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But before we can get to that night — the night of the Hazel’s Inn raid — we have to ask why here? Miles from San Francisco, hidden in a small town, far from any other gay nightlife, why was Hazel’s Inn the place that attracted hundreds of LGBTQ people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>To answer this question, I went to the archives at the GLBT historical society — where collections documenting the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Trans community are housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, I met Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd. She’s an oral historian with the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>I was professor of women and gender studies at San Francisco State for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She’s one of the few people who has researched queer nightlife in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> 1956, 90 persons, mostly men were booked at the San Mateo county jail…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>At the archives we read some of the newspaper clippings about Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> Suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She did a lot of her research back in the 1990s and was able to interview dozens of queer people who lived in the Bay Area in the 1940s and 50s. Most of them have since passed away, so her work and these archives are some of the last links to this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the 1940s, San Francisco already had a queer nightlife scene, but at the time it was illegal to be gay. And bars that were caught serving queer people… that was illegal too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> If you were not a legal kind of person, then you couldn’t like buy a drink in a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But the law changed in 1951— when the Black Cat Cafe, in San Francisco, had its liquor license suspended for serving members of the LGBT community. The owner appealed the decision to the California Supreme court. The case is known as Stouman vs. Riley and it’s a big moment in queer civil rights history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>The court agreed. And the ruling became one of the first civil rights protections for LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the first time, they had the protected right to assemble. Gay men and lesbian women could buy drinks at bars and hang out with other queer friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is as long as there were no homosexual acts taking place that were deemed “illegal or immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many legal decisions, it was a vague but powerful protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> I know it seems really regressive now, right? But the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t Status that was illegal, it was behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And so queer nightlife in the Bay Area blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> In the early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And really iconic gay bars came into the picture. The Black Cat Cafe was running again, Tommy’s Place and Ann’s 440 opened. And these places became sanctuaries for the LGBT community to be \u003cem>together. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There were maybe four or five quote unquote lesbian bars in North Beach in walking distance of each other at any point in time between like, let’s say, 1948 and 1955. So it’s like a really interesting community that evolved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And this was really important because in the 1950s it was still not super safe to be gay. Many queer folks were closeted by day in order to keep their jobs. But at night…at the bar…there was a freedom that didn’t really exist anywhere else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> And it was before the state caught wind of what was happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But then a panic started to take hold in the United States…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Are you a member of the communist conspiracy as of this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>A conservative mindset took hold in American politics and culture — ushering in a time of suspicion and fear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Our nation may very well die, and I ask you caused it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And quickly, LGBT people become \u003cu>targets\u003c/u> at the federal, state and local level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work, labeling them as having immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, in 1955 \u003cem>California\u003c/em> created a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control or the ABC. An agency whose sole job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral\u003c/em> codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from the moment the department of Alcoholic Beverage control was created a top priority for them was to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>Shut down the gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And they did this by finding ways around those vague protections won in the Stouman v. Riley case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While queer people were granted the right to assemble, “homosexual acts” were still illegal, so authorities started taking an interest in the specifics of what that meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There’s a question about like, well then what exactly are the behaviors that are illegal? Like, do you have to like see someone, having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about holding hands? What about dancing close? So all this stuff was like, then started being hashed out, you know, this is an illegal act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control started collaborating with a bunch of law enforcement agencies throughout the Bay Area to ferret out people engaged in those acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBT community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars, and they ended up down the coast, at Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound design of a raucous bar scene\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only testimonies about what happened on Feb. 19, 1956, the night that Hazel’s Inn was raided, come from court documents and hearings at the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described in detail what was happening at the bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That night, the dance floor was alive, and the bar was filled with around 200 patrons, mostly men. These men wrapped their arms around each other and embraced one another while dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also described how one patron sat on another man’s lap and how two other men held hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple embraced as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It sounds like a scene of queer joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music turns tense\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, 35 law enforcement agents stormed the bar — a mix of San Mateo county sheriff’s officers and ABC agents began arresting people. The sheriff jumped on to the bar and announced:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over:\u003c/strong> “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents. And one by one, agents picked out people they had seen showing queer affection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Boyd says that the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board had been watching Hazel’s Inn for months, gathering evidence and building a case that behavior there was “illegal and immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>They had undercover agents in the bars. And they would go in twos or threes and they would watch each other. And somebody would get an interested person, and then would sort of lead them on, until there was some kind of physical, sexual, or flirtatious engagement that involved touching. It was entrapment. And that was a common and acceptable practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Ninety people were arrested that night at Hazel’s Inn, including Hazel Nikola — the owner. The bar’s liquor license was quickly revoked for being quote “a resort for sexual perverts” and for serving someone underaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mass arrest caught the attention of a variety of civil rights groups, including the ACLU who represented 30 defendants. Most of those arrested were cleared of charges, but the damage had already been done. People were outed in the newspapers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There would be a list of the people and their address and sometimes their occupation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over: \u003c/strong>The San Mateo Times: Local persons arrested were: Iris Ann Glasgow, 24 years old. Clerk. 1515 James Street, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Many of these people were publicly named as “sexual perverts”. That often meant being ostracized or losing their job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> People were so fearful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cello music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>As for the bar, Hazel fought the revocation of her liquor license for\u003cem> two years \u003c/em>but the court ultimately sided with the ABC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> I think she was just really bitter about what happened here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the Pacifica Coastside museum, Laura reflected on what the raid did to Hazel Nikola.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> She lost her liquor license and things just kind of went downhill for her. You have that information on the thing. And she ended up, she ended closing. She was very, very bitter at the end. She felt like she was really an important part of the community and that they had kind of betrayed her. She left Sharp Park and went to live somewhere else. And never came back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the queer community, the effects were even more devastating. The Hazel’s Inn Raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the next 15 years. (Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses.) It was a strategy to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it didn’t work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this aggressive policing and repression, the gay bars never died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Queer patrons, and bartenders, and bar owners found ways to keep going. They found ways to spot surveillance in their bars, they organized and worked to keep the police out of their spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historian Dr. Boyd again:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> My takeaway from history as a historian is that during these times of repression. There’s cultural innovation that happens. You can’t really name it yet, right? But it’s taking shape you know, that there’s something coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>During those years of extreme repression, queer activists were making connections, organizing, and laying the groundwork for the next several decades of activism that would see LGBTQ rights expand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has changed a lot since the raid at Hazel’s Inn. But still, a fearless commitment to community and authenticity — the spirit that kept these gay bars alive — lives on here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Ana De Almeida Amaral. Featuring the voices of Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, Carly Severn, Christopher Beale and Paul Lancour for archival material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know that Bay Curious listeners help choose which questions we answer on the podcast? Each month we have a new voting round up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, with three fascinating questions to choose from. This month…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1: \u003c/strong>Did the Navy airship America crash land into several houses? What happened to the crew?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why is San Francisco home to so many federal and statewide courts? Why aren’t they in Sacramento or Los Angeles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I want to learn more about San Francisco upzoning and how people feel about it in the Richmond and Sunset districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cast your vote with one click at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Become a member today at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">kqed.org/donate\u003c/a>. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Matt Morales, Tim Olsen, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> has an international reputation as a haven of freedom and culture for the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">LGBTQ+\u003c/a> community. And with good reason.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco elected \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11706248/40-years-after-assassinations-assessing-the-legacies-of-harvey-milk-and-george-moscone\">Harvey Milk\u003c/a>, California’s first openly gay public official. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11876846/never-take-it-down-the-original-1978-rainbow-flag-returns-to-sf\">the birthplace of the rainbow pride flag\u003c/a>, now a global symbol. The city has also long had an iconic drag queen scene and legendary nightlife with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13930323/san-francisco-gay-bars-history-silver-rail-febes-black-cat\">a long history of bustling gay\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13929998/historic-lesbian-bars-san-francisco-mauds-pegs-front-anns-monas-440-tommy-vasu\">lesbian bars\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Bay Area was not always this way. The LGBTQ+ community had to fight for these freedoms and safe spaces. Often, this fight was against oppressive policing from the state and local government. And some important moments in that fight happened in unexpected places, like Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was like, whoa, it says this was in Pacifica! Why have I never heard of it?” Bay Curious listener Henry Lie asked. He’d stumbled across mention of a 1956 police raid at a bar called Hazel’s Inn, where nearly a hundred queer folks were arrested. He wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Progress and repression of LGBTQ+ rights\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco,” said Nan Alamilla Boyd, an oral historian at the UC Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. As a longtime researcher of San Francisco’s LGBTQ+ history, Boyd has interviewed dozens of queer individuals who frequented gay bars during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her interviews uncover stories of the Bay Area’s history, especially the repression queer people faced in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069459\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069459\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED-1536x899.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building once housed Hazel’s Inn. This photo was taken in 1966, when the city condemned the building. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of The Pacifica Historical Society)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these people [I interviewed] witnessed front row seats to [this repressive era], and kept being as out and proud as possible and survived to tell about it,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1951, the California State Board of Equalization revoked the liquor license of the Black Cat Cafe, a popular gay bar, because the establishment was “injurious to public morals.” The Black Cat owner, Sol Stouman, appealed the move to the California Supreme Court. The court ruled in his favor, affirming that the presence of LGBTQ+ people in a bar was allowable, as long as there were no “immoral acts” taking place. The case is known as Stoumen v. Reilly and many historians see it as the first legal victory for the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts,” Boyd explained. “I know it seems really regressive now, but the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t status that was illegal, it was behavior.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the first time, LGBTQ+ people had the protected right to gather at bars without facing prosecution for simply being a queer person in public. And so queer nightlife blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were maybe four or five ‘lesbian bars’ in North Beach within walking distance of each other at any point in time between 1948 and 1955,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>But just a few years later, the U.S. government started targeting the LGBTQ+ community. Now known as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/state-department-gay-employees-outed-fired-lavender-scare\">Lavender Scare\u003c/a>, many of the freedoms enjoyed in the early 50s came under attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work for immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.” And in California, a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was created in 1955. Known as the ABC, its job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral \u003c/em>codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Things really changed in 1955,” Boyd said. The ABC began waging a war against gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency found ways to undermine the protections previously won by the LGBTQ+ community in Stouman v. Reilly. Since “homosexual acts” were still illegal, suddenly the state was very concerned about specific actions taking place in bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a question about what exactly [were] the behaviors that [were] illegal,” Boyd said. “Do you have to see someone having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about dancing close? So, all this stuff then started being hashed out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With each enforcement action against queer bar patrons, the ABC expanded the definition of illegal acts. Soon, even dancing with someone of the same sex was punishable. The ABC even collaborated with local law enforcement agencies to conduct undercover surveillance operations that identified and monitored LGBTQ gathering spots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe. And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBTQ+ community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars. The community ended up down the coast, where they made Hazel’s Inn their spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Hazel’s Inn raid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the early hours of Feb. 19, 1956, a group of 35 ABC and San Mateo County Sheriff’s officers stormed into a full and bustling Hazel’s Inn. There were around 200 patrons present in the bar, mostly men, when the sheriff jumped onto the bar and announced, “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ninety people were arrested that night, including the bar’s owner, Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069461\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2125px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069461\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2125\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-scaled.jpg 2125w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-2000x2409.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-160x193.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1275x1536.jpg 1275w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/San_Francisco_Chronicle__February_20_1956__Hazel_s-Inn-KQED-1-1700x2048.jpg 1700w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2125px) 100vw, 2125px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Coverage of the Hazel’s Inn raid from the San Francisco Chronicle in 1956. It was common, at the time, for newspapers to use derogatory language in reference to the LGBTQ community. \u003ccite>(The San Francisco Chronicle via Newsbank)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn had been under state surveillance for months, and patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents who had been watching them. One by one, agents picked out those they had seen showing queer affection. Most of those arrested faced vagrancy charges. Nikola’s liquor license was quickly revoked for knowingly hosting a hangout for queer people and for serving an underage person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-20-february-1956-smt-hazels-i/10556199/\">\u003cem>The San Mateo Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a> asked Sheriff Earl Whitmore about the raid, he said, “Let it be known that we are not going to tolerate gatherings of homosexuals in the county.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The full extent of the ABC’s operation at Hazel’s Inn became clear as the case was brought before\u003ca href=\"https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AHSI&u=glbths&id=GALE%7CMDRLJF555849529&v=2.1&it=r&sid=bookmark-AHSI&sPage=11&asid=6014d9b9\"> the ABC Board\u003c/a> and the \u003ca href=\"https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-court-of-appeal/1810632.html\">court\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In court documents, Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described the scene at Hazel’s Inn the night of the raid and in the months leading up to it. Strong described how one male patron sat on another man’s lap and how two others were seen holding hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple was seen embracing as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These scenes of queerness would be used in court to justify the revocation of Nikola’s liquor license for being a “resort for sexual perverts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While most of those arrested that night were cleared of charges, the damage had already been done. Newspapers caught wind of the raid, and patrons were publicly outed, with their names, occupations and home addresses published for all to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were so fearful,” Boyd said. “There were [LGBTQ+ people] who would never go out because they were afraid of getting arrested. And then [their] name would be in the paper and [their] life would be ruined.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hazel’s Inn raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the following 15 years. Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses were all part of a strategy to push LGBTQ+ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Resistance amidst repression\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Looking back at this history of aggressive policing against queer people and their bars, it’s no surprise that queer nightlife continues to be central to the LGBTQ+ community. For many, gay bars were the only spaces they were afforded the freedom to be openly queer. They were also the battlegrounds where civil rights were won and lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the fight for LGBTQ+ rights continues. As the federal government uses its power to withhold \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049666/nowhere-else-to-go-sf-families-protest-kaisers-new-limits-on-gender-affirming-care\">gender-affirming healthcare\u003c/a> and to target\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12047432/us-sues-california-over-its-refusal-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-girls-sports\"> transgender youth in sports\u003c/a>, Boyd said it can be hard to keep hope alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12068581\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12068581\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260102-hazelsinnraid00178_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nan Alamilla Boyd, a historian, poses for a portrait at the GLBT Historical Society Archives in San Francisco on Jan. 2, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The hits [to LGBTQ+ rights] keep coming and in many different ways,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, her work has taught her that in times of repression, powerful political organizing and cultural innovation can emerge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“By the early 1960s, [queer] bartenders and the bar owners had pretty elaborate methods to resist the policing agencies,” Boyd said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They created a resistance movement powerful enough to outlast the government’s efforts to eradicate queer nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t really make cultural innovation illegal because it happens,” Boyd said. “It’s everything, everywhere, all at once. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>San Francisco and its surrounding Bay Area have long been known as a gay capital of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, it’s here, where the first lesbian civil rights group was formed, the Daughters of Bilitis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And where Harvey Milk became an iconic gay public official! [tape]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harvey Milk:\u003c/strong> I will fight to represent my constituents. I will fight to represent the city and county of San Francisco. I will fight to give those people who once walked away hope, so that those people will walk back in. Thank you very much. [clapping]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It was the birthplace of the Gay pride flag. And it’s where city hall is lit up in a rainbow for pride month. This is the Bay Area that our question asker, Henry Lie, knows well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music stops\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie: \u003c/strong>I’m originally from Pacifica…went to high school at Terranova High School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry always thought of Pacifica as an extension of San Francisco — it’s just a few miles south, after all. And, there’s not a whole lot that surprises Henry about his hometown. That is until he learned about a moment in Pacifica’s history that left him with a ton of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> We have this museum.. I think I was there and saw like a footnote or something and it just said like, oh yeah, Hazel’s Inn raid where, you know, there was a large gathering of LGBTQ+ identifying people and a bunch of people were arrested, couple of people charged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Henry had stumbled across a forgotten moment in history — a massive police raid that took place in 1956, part of a crusade to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ominous music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local newspapers documented the raid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 1: \u003c/strong>San Francisco Examiner: Ninety persons, mostly men, were booked at the San Mateo County jail yesterday after a vice raid on a tavern suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 2: \u003c/strong>San Mateo Times: The raid, according to Sheriff Whitmore, “was to let homosexuals know we’re not going to tolerate their congregation in this county.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Voice Over 3: \u003c/strong>Redwood City Tribune: Mrs. Nicola, owner of Hazel’s Inn, is charged with operating a resort for sexual deviates. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big questions began surfacing for Henry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> And I was like, whoa, I’ve never even heard of Hazel’s Inn. This says this was in Pacifica. Why have I never heard of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So he came to Bay Curious, hoping to find out more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Could you dive deeper into the Hazel’s Inn raid in Pacifica and the effects that it had on the LGBTQ plus community in the greater Bay area in the late 1950s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. This week, we’re going back to the gay bars of the 1950s to learn about a moment in time when the San Francisco Bay Area was far less welcoming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that coming right up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To dig deeper into Bay Area queer history, KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral takes us to Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Pacifica is a beautiful place, with sprawling views of the ocean and stunning beaches. It has that small town feel, complete with a\u003cem> tiny\u003c/em> museum showcasing its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This is our little museum…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Laura Del Rosso was born and raised in Pacifica, and serves as a docent and board member for the Pacifica Coastside Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> This whole area around here was full of speakeasies, taverns, restaurants, and brothels during Prohibition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>It seems hard to imagine now, but this small town was once infamous for its nightlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso: \u003c/strong>Some people think that San Mateo County coast was actually the wettest place in the whole United States, meaning there was more booze here and in Half Moon Bay area than anywhere else in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>While the historical society has long been aware of the clandestine nightlife during Prohibition, it wasn’t until a few years ago that they started uncovering the history of a hushed queer nightlife scene that took hold right here, in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Jazzy music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Hazel’s Inn was a tavern in Sharp Park, now a neighborhood in Pacifica. ^The bar is long gone^, but in 1956 the Pacifica Tribune, described it as a large and homey space, with knick-nacks above a mahogany bar, a shuffle board, a dance floor and a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hazel’s Inn was owned and run by Hazel Nikola, a straight woman in her 60s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> From what we understand then, after she got a divorce she was running the place by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the place was popular! Sometimes there were up to 500 patrons in a weekend. For a long time it catered mostly to locals and tourists on holiday at the beach, but then in 1955 and 56, the LGBT community made it \u003cem>their\u003c/em> spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> When the gay men started coming from San Francisco, she welcomed them. And she was non-judgmental. However, it’s obvious that somebody was not happy and did contact the sheriff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But before we can get to that night — the night of the Hazel’s Inn raid — we have to ask why here? Miles from San Francisco, hidden in a small town, far from any other gay nightlife, why was Hazel’s Inn the place that attracted hundreds of LGBTQ people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>To answer this question, I went to the archives at the GLBT historical society — where collections documenting the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Trans community are housed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, I met Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd. She’s an oral historian with the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>I was professor of women and gender studies at San Francisco State for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She’s one of the few people who has researched queer nightlife in the 1950’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> 1956, 90 persons, mostly men were booked at the San Mateo county jail…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>At the archives we read some of the newspaper clippings about Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> Suspected of being a gathering place for sex deviates…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>She did a lot of her research back in the 1990s and was able to interview dozens of queer people who lived in the Bay Area in the 1940s and 50s. Most of them have since passed away, so her work and these archives are some of the last links to this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the 1940s, San Francisco already had a queer nightlife scene, but at the time it was illegal to be gay. And bars that were caught serving queer people… that was illegal too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> If you were not a legal kind of person, then you couldn’t like buy a drink in a bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But the law changed in 1951— when the Black Cat Cafe, in San Francisco, had its liquor license suspended for serving members of the LGBT community. The owner appealed the decision to the California Supreme court. The case is known as Stouman vs. Riley and it’s a big moment in queer civil rights history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> The argument was that it’s not illegal to be a homosexual, it’s illegal to do homosexual acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>The court agreed. And the ruling became one of the first civil rights protections for LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the first time, they had the protected right to assemble. Gay men and lesbian women could buy drinks at bars and hang out with other queer friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is as long as there were no homosexual acts taking place that were deemed “illegal or immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many legal decisions, it was a vague but powerful protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> I know it seems really regressive now, right? But the decision was liberating because the conclusion was that it wasn’t Status that was illegal, it was behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And so queer nightlife in the Bay Area blossomed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> In the early 1950s, I would say it was the heyday of gay nightlife in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And really iconic gay bars came into the picture. The Black Cat Cafe was running again, Tommy’s Place and Ann’s 440 opened. And these places became sanctuaries for the LGBT community to be \u003cem>together. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There were maybe four or five quote unquote lesbian bars in North Beach in walking distance of each other at any point in time between like, let’s say, 1948 and 1955. So it’s like a really interesting community that evolved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And this was really important because in the 1950s it was still not super safe to be gay. Many queer folks were closeted by day in order to keep their jobs. But at night…at the bar…there was a freedom that didn’t really exist anywhere else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> And it was before the state caught wind of what was happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>But then a panic started to take hold in the United States…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Are you a member of the communist conspiracy as of this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>A conservative mindset took hold in American politics and culture — ushering in a time of suspicion and fear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Senator McCarthy archival tape:\u003c/strong> Our nation may very well die, and I ask you caused it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And quickly, LGBT people become \u003cu>targets\u003c/u> at the federal, state and local level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>President Eisenhower signed an executive order in 1953 banning gay people from federal work, labeling them as having immoral conduct and “sexual perversion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, in 1955 \u003cem>California\u003c/em> created a new state agency called the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control or the ABC. An agency whose sole job was to ensure that licensed bars abided by legal and \u003cem>moral\u003c/em> codes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And from the moment the department of Alcoholic Beverage control was created a top priority for them was to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>Shut down the gay bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And they did this by finding ways around those vague protections won in the Stouman v. Riley case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While queer people were granted the right to assemble, “homosexual acts” were still illegal, so authorities started taking an interest in the specifics of what that meant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There’s a question about like, well then what exactly are the behaviors that are illegal? Like, do you have to like see someone, having sex in the bar? Or is it kissing? What about fondling? What about sitting on a lap? What about holding hands? What about dancing close? So all this stuff was like, then started being hashed out, you know, this is an illegal act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>And the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control started collaborating with a bunch of law enforcement agencies throughout the Bay Area to ferret out people engaged in those acts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1955, the gay bars in San Francisco were getting less and less safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as harassment and policing increased, the LGBT community began looking for new places to gather outside of San Francisco, away from well-known gay bars, and they ended up down the coast, at Hazel’s Inn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound design of a raucous bar scene\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only testimonies about what happened on Feb. 19, 1956, the night that Hazel’s Inn was raided, come from court documents and hearings at the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. Laurence E. Strong, an ABC agent, described in detail what was happening at the bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That night, the dance floor was alive, and the bar was filled with around 200 patrons, mostly men. These men wrapped their arms around each other and embraced one another while dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He also described how one patron sat on another man’s lap and how two other men held hands. In the corner of the bar, a couple embraced as one nestled his head into the other’s shoulder. Some men pinched each other’s butts and fondled each other while dancing. Women danced close together with other women. Men were seen powdering their faces and women wore slacks and sports coats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It sounds like a scene of queer joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music turns tense\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, 35 law enforcement agents stormed the bar — a mix of San Mateo county sheriff’s officers and ABC agents began arresting people. The sheriff jumped on to the bar and announced:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over:\u003c/strong> “This is a raid!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Patrons were forced to walk past a line of agents. And one by one, agents picked out people they had seen showing queer affection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Boyd says that the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board had been watching Hazel’s Inn for months, gathering evidence and building a case that behavior there was “illegal and immoral.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd: \u003c/strong>They had undercover agents in the bars. And they would go in twos or threes and they would watch each other. And somebody would get an interested person, and then would sort of lead them on, until there was some kind of physical, sexual, or flirtatious engagement that involved touching. It was entrapment. And that was a common and acceptable practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Ninety people were arrested that night at Hazel’s Inn, including Hazel Nikola — the owner. The bar’s liquor license was quickly revoked for being quote “a resort for sexual perverts” and for serving someone underaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mass arrest caught the attention of a variety of civil rights groups, including the ACLU who represented 30 defendants. Most of those arrested were cleared of charges, but the damage had already been done. People were outed in the newspapers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> There would be a list of the people and their address and sometimes their occupation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over: \u003c/strong>The San Mateo Times: Local persons arrested were: Iris Ann Glasgow, 24 years old. Clerk. 1515 James Street, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Many of these people were publicly named as “sexual perverts”. That often meant being ostracized or losing their job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> People were so fearful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cello music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>As for the bar, Hazel fought the revocation of her liquor license for\u003cem> two years \u003c/em>but the court ultimately sided with the ABC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> I think she was just really bitter about what happened here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Back in the Pacifica Coastside museum, Laura reflected on what the raid did to Hazel Nikola.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Del Rosso:\u003c/strong> She lost her liquor license and things just kind of went downhill for her. You have that information on the thing. And she ended up, she ended closing. She was very, very bitter at the end. She felt like she was really an important part of the community and that they had kind of betrayed her. She left Sharp Park and went to live somewhere else. And never came back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>For the queer community, the effects were even more devastating. The Hazel’s Inn Raid became a playbook for the state to target the queer community over the next 15 years. (Surveillance, raids, and the revocation of liquor licenses.) It was a strategy to push LGBTQ people out of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it didn’t work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this aggressive policing and repression, the gay bars never died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Queer patrons, and bartenders, and bar owners found ways to keep going. They found ways to spot surveillance in their bars, they organized and worked to keep the police out of their spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Historian Dr. Boyd again:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Nan Alamilla Boyd:\u003c/strong> My takeaway from history as a historian is that during these times of repression. There’s cultural innovation that happens. You can’t really name it yet, right? But it’s taking shape you know, that there’s something coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>During those years of extreme repression, queer activists were making connections, organizing, and laying the groundwork for the next several decades of activism that would see LGBTQ rights expand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area has changed a lot since the raid at Hazel’s Inn. But still, a fearless commitment to community and authenticity — the spirit that kept these gay bars alive — lives on here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Ana De Almeida Amaral. Featuring the voices of Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, Carly Severn, Christopher Beale and Paul Lancour for archival material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know that Bay Curious listeners help choose which questions we answer on the podcast? Each month we have a new voting round up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, with three fascinating questions to choose from. This month…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1: \u003c/strong>Did the Navy airship America crash land into several houses? What happened to the crew?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why is San Francisco home to so many federal and statewide courts? Why aren’t they in Sacramento or Los Angeles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I want to learn more about San Francisco upzoning and how people feel about it in the Richmond and Sunset districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cast your vote with one click at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Become a member today at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">kqed.org/donate\u003c/a>. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Matt Morales, Tim Olsen, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "it-just-felt-like-the-world-was-burning-remembering-the-2020-fires",
"title": "‘It Just Felt Like the World Was Burning’: Remembering the 2020 Fires",
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"headTitle": "‘It Just Felt Like the World Was Burning’: Remembering the 2020 Fires | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In August 2020, a dry lightning storm kicked off an unprecedented siege of wildfires. These firestorms lasted for months, destroyed 9,000 structures and killed 31 people. Millions of residents throughout the region breathed in toxic smoke as the sky turned orange and the pandemic raged on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we mark five years since the sky turned orange, we’re bringing you stories from people who lived through the 2020 fires, in their own words.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1998245/the-summer-that-changed-california-forever\">The Summer That Changed California Forever\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1752199076&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Alan Montesilio, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Five years ago, a dry lightning storm raged through northern California. After weeks of extreme heat, made worse by climate change, had dried out grass, brush, and trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] We had a dry lightning event that was epic in proportion, so about 15,000 lightning strikes over a three-day period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:31] The winds kicked up, and before long, there was fire and smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Watt \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Live from KQED News, I’m Brian Watt. A fast-burning complex of fires in the North Bay has forced thousands of people from their\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tara Siler \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] Lightning-caused fires burning in Santa Cruz and San Mateo counties have triggered widespread evacuations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin DeMerritt \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] The areas most heavily impacted by smoke are South San Francisco, Pacifica, San Mateio, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julia McEvoy \u003c/strong>[00:00:58] If you were here, you’d be choking on the smoke right now, Brian. It’s very, very sick and the sun rose blood red just a few minutes ago. People are just waking up and trying to find their way to some sort of normality here right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Now, if you were living here in 2020, you remember how it felt. The smell of smoke in the air for weeks on end. That apocalyptic orange sky. And oh yeah, the pandemic was only in its fifth month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:01:25] For 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this year in the middle of a historic event. It is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:42] In the end, these fires killed 31 people and destroyed approximately 9,000 structures. Overall, 4.2 million acres across California burned during the firestorms of 2020, the most in the recorded history of the state. So today on the show, as we mark five years since that orange sky day, we’re bringing you stories from the people who lived through the 2020 fires in their own words. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:12] My name is Nate Erickson. I lived in the Bay Area, lived in South Bay up until 2016. Moved up to Sonoma County, lived in Santa Rosa and Petaluma. And then in 2020, I got a new territory. I was in sales in Livermore. I moved to Livermore March 1st, and then March 17th, everything shut down. So my birthday was August 14th. And I decided to go camping by myself up in Humboldt. So I put my phone away, had the best time that I could possibly have in the Redwoods, a very peaceful, amazing time. I was really enjoying myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] But then Sunday came around, I pulled out my phone just to check my route, and that’s when I learned about the fires. I saw my stepmom posting that she was, she and my dad were being evacuated. All the alarm bells in my head went off. And so realized that there was a fire in Mendocino between me and home. And so just trying to figure out all of the details necessary to get home. So I just got on 101 South and started going. As I started to get close to Mendocin, I did start to see just this massive plume of smoke. As I kept getting closer to it, it was just such a surreal experience. And I think I also remember being on 101 and just seeing on the hill to my right, just seeing fire at the crest of that hill right there. And after the previous couple years of the previous fires, that was probably the closest that I had come to actually being face-to-face with the fire. I really just remember this seeing that plume of smoke and just not wanting to keep going. I mean, it’s kind of that fight or flight situation where I don’t want to go towards this anymore, but it’s between me and home. Also just thinking about my parents, my dad and my stepmom, just thinking what’s happening to them. They live still in the Santa Cruz mountains. I came to find out later the fire came within a half mile of their house. My parents got into a hotel, they told me to stay away. They were taking the COVID precautions very serious. They told me they were safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:04:42] When I got home, I think that just became a time of doom scrolling and making phone calls. Finding out not just my dad and my stepmom, what’s going on with them, but just other friends with their shelter in place that was happening. I didn’t really have a lot of other options. That was kind of a. Helpless feeling too, because you have your friends that are potentially in danger, and during normal times, you would drive to them and try to support. But at that point, I didn’t really know what to do. Uh, it was very smoky, uh, in Livermore. That I think that was more of a hit to my psyche than just the fire itself. Just because after the previous couple of years of living through similar situations of just breathing in smoke for a couple of weeks, it’s just, it became to be a lot. The week of the orange skies, that was very surreal. Uh, I remember that day very specifically. I was sitting in. Parking lot and that was the day of my review with my bosses. I was so frustrated and just really upset and just like, are we really doing this right now? Does this, we still have to jump through these corporate hoops and fill out, check these boxes and the sky looks like the apocalypse or Mars or something and we’re talking about KPIs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] What led to the point of me wanting to move to Wisconsin, I don’t know if it was an exact moment where like a switch flipped, but it was a very quick decision. After the previous years of living through the fires and breathing in smoke and also just the cost of living, I had enough money to purchase a home, but never in the Bay Area. It’s that uncertainty, right? I didn’t know if this was gonna be an annual thing now. It was three years in a row, and then that was kind of the climax of that story, right? I definitely think about that time quite a bit. It’s definitely still like unresolved, unprocessed trauma. Moving here now with the Canada wildfires, pushing smoke into the Midwest. And I was back going to the hardware store to buy N95 masks again. That first time I was just. So upset and we had it again this year so it’s always like a constant annual reminder of just how I felt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When I look back at that time and 4.2 million acres burned, it is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years. My name is George Morris III, and I am the Northern Region Chief for CAL FIRE. My area of responsibility is from Monterey County up to the Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] So leading into August 15th, which is when the lightning started, we had a heat dome laid over California for a significant amount of time, and some record temperatures were hitting. We were in the 110 degree range for weeks coming out of that It was a tropical storm, Fausto started to break up and this monsoonal moisture came up the Sierras. And everything came down to in those early moments, allocation of resources and trying to figure out, okay, we have finite resources, namely our incident management teams. Where do we deploy them? Where do commit them? We were on a continuous deployment of resources essentially through that time. And every time you thought you were gonna, you’re gonna get ahead, The original lightning-caused fires gave way to other mega-fires like the glass fire in Napa County and Sonoma County that just continued to stress the system over that period. In my career, every 10 years or so, there’s a lightning siege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:08:55] You can look at 1999, 2008, and then 2020. But in the era of the megafire, that propagation of large and damaging fire has just been really pronounced. And for 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this we’re in the middle of a historic event. Just dealing with the fires on the landscape was a challenge in and of itself, but they were also doing an incredible amount of damage to property. In the example of the North Complex, killing civilians as it moved into Berry Creek, they were significant complex events. It’s funny when I think back on it now, just how hard we were going and for how long. I’m happy that we could limit the damage to 4.2 million acres, given how difficult that operational reality was. So fast forward to today, you know, we learned a lot through that process too. Our technological capability has increased since 2020. We are, our predictive modeling is, is better. It’s at the, it’s at the fingertips of the firefighter now. So the next one we get, the public will be better informed to make good decisions and hopefully loss of life can be We’re in the era of the mega fire and we’re likely to see large and damaging fires in California for a variety of reasons. Climate change is one of those reasons. Encroachment into the wildland-urban interface. Most fires are caused by human activity. It was kind of a recipe there that are making fires larger and more damaging. In my early career, you could go on a 30,000 acre fire and you think I’ll never see anything like that again. But that is a naive thought as a young firefighter because the reality is it’s California, it’s a Mediterranean climate. It has always had a recipe for fire, and fire has always been part of its landscape. But there’s 40 million people on that landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton \u003c/strong>[00:11:14] Tell me, tell me who you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:18] Alana Semuels. Right now I’m in New York City, but I live in the Hudson Valley in New york state. Um, so yeah, so I was living in San Francisco. I should start off by saying San Francisco is like my favorite place in the whole world. I love just walking around and seeing all the beautiful views. I remember I saw the went to went to ocean beach to see the sunset and the colors are really vivid and I kind of thought, Oh, that’s unusual. That usually happens when there’s a fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:46] And over the next couple of days, um, you know, there were, I think there were a couple of fires going on at the time. And the air quality got worse and worse. I was pregnant at the time, so I stopped taking walks outside, the air was really hazy, we didn’t have air conditioning, and it was just really unpleasant. We couldn’t open our windows. We lived in a west-facing apartment, so it got a lot of heat. And I don’t know if I would say sun, because the sun was kind of blocked by the haze and the bad air. But just kind of everything I loved about San Francisco was suddenly gone. My husband and I just kept having this debate of should we open the windows? He didn’t want to because he thought the air quality was too bad. I was just like, we’re suffocating in here. It feels like we’re in some box. And the air got a little cooler at night. So one night I got so desperate, I was so hot that I went outside to sleep on our deck chairs and get some relief, at least get a little breeze or a little cool air. And I remember waking up with just kind of a fine layer of grit on the chairs and on me. And just feeling filthy and going back inside and wanting to hide it from my husband that I’d been outside because he was so worried about the air quality. I think I was about eight months pregnant at the time. And I remember calling UCSF, which is where I was getting care and expecting them to be like, oh, you’re fine, don’t worry about it. And they were like, well, if you’re not breathing properly, then your baby’s not getting the oxygen or just the baby isn’t getting what it needs. And that’s when we decided to rent a hotel room to at least get some air conditioning to feel like I could breathe deeply. It just felt like there was no relief. There was nowhere you could go to get relief and to feel clean and to feel like you’re breathing clean air. And even, you know, I think even in LA it was happening. So it just felt like the world was burning. It wasn’t just San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:14:02] We rented Airbnb in South San Francisco, this was probably the worst day. And we woke up and it was like eight and it’s like the sun hadn’t come up. And I was like, did all the clocks fail? Or did what happened? We drove back to our house and it was just like people had their lights on. It was still dark out and it was that day that everything turned orange and for whatever reason, I guess it was the haze and the smoke, the sun just didn’t really come up and you took pictures and everything looked orange and that was when we were really like, this is not sustainable. I don’t know if we can continue to live like this. We had been talking about moving to the East Coast because both of our families are on the East coast, but San Francisco is my favorite place on the planet. And, you know, it’s just a place that kind of makes my chest relax and I just love it. And I think after that summer and after those days, we just felt like we couldn’t go through it again unless we had a lot of money. You know, you can probably install some sort of air purifying air conditioning system. To your house if you own your house, which we couldn’t afford to do. And it just felt like we couldn’t do that summer after summer after Summer. This place is ahead of the rest of the country in terms of what it’s gonna have to deal with, with the water as well. And we just thought it’s just too much of a sacrifice to make, which I’m really sad about. I wish that wasn’t the case because I love San Francisco and I’m jealous of people who are able to live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:16:05] I saw the lightning that night and I knew immediately that it was a high fire risk and then I couldn’t reach them because the power went out right away. I am Leigh-Anne Lehrman, and I am a CZU fire survivor, as are my kids. So I had actually just been diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer. So I was up, I was actually not staying there that August. I was staying up in Woodside with my fiance. My older daughter was in between her freshman and sophomore year. Of college at Berkeley and her younger sister was only 15 and they were holding out in the fort in Bonny Doon. It’s a rural area, really tight community. We had lived there since 2001 so we were very embedded in the community. The girls obviously grew up there. They were born there in the house that we had. I had just had a double mastectomy like a week before, and we woke up in the middle of the night to lightning strikes all over the place. It was beautiful but also terrifying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:17:36] Over the course of the next two days, the winds were very strong, it was blowing it right in their direction, and it was spreading by embers from hilltop to hilltop, so it’s spread very, very fast and. It was not looking good for Bonnie Doon. I started really panicking, and then I couldn’t reach them at all. And there was a long night when I was trying to get a hold of them and tell them to get out. I didn’t know if they were there or not now because all the cell phones weren’t working. Finally at six in the morning, I caught a hold a friend of mine who had evacuated down to Davenport, which is where all our neighbors were gathering. And she drove back up there, and they were packing the car when she got there. By that time we knew it was not looking good. And then, you know, there was nothing to be done. We, they were, the girls were safe. They were staying with friends, with all of our pets. And the day that the house burned, I went to a physical therapy appointment and. Uh, somehow in the middle of it, because of a trimfist, as to, you know, what was going on. And I think my house is burning right now as we speak. And she was just, she was like, what are you doing here? So there’s absolutely nothing I can do about it. We did have one of my daughters, my older daughter’s friends who was college age, actually snuck past the barricade lines the day before the house burned and to get her cat out of their house. And she happened to call me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:19:24] I was at work and I happened to pick up the phone and she said, I’m going up to Monique. Is there anything you want me to grab from your house? And I said to her, you know, please don’t go up there. Does not say should that be going up. Up there was a reason why the roads are closed but she was like I’m going so tell me now you want me to go by your house drive me right by it so I said if you all if you do I told her where that this box of family photos were like like all we had left because my father’s house burnt down in 2017 at Santa Rosa I had one bin left of all the old family photos going back a couple generations. I told her where it was and I totally forgot about it until like three weeks later when she told me she had it. Wherever we all gather is where we’re a family. I’m not sure I would have believed that before. I always associated family with our home, but now we can kind of reconstitute our family and our family culture in any room that we are in.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In August 2020, a dry lightning storm kicked off an unprecedented siege of wildfires. These firestorms lasted for months, destroyed 9,000 structures and killed 31 people. Millions of residents throughout the region breathed in toxic smoke as the sky turned orange and the pandemic raged on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we mark five years since the sky turned orange, we’re bringing you stories from people who lived through the 2020 fires, in their own words.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1998245/the-summer-that-changed-california-forever\">The Summer That Changed California Forever\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1752199076&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Alan Montesilio, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Five years ago, a dry lightning storm raged through northern California. After weeks of extreme heat, made worse by climate change, had dried out grass, brush, and trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] We had a dry lightning event that was epic in proportion, so about 15,000 lightning strikes over a three-day period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:31] The winds kicked up, and before long, there was fire and smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Watt \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Live from KQED News, I’m Brian Watt. A fast-burning complex of fires in the North Bay has forced thousands of people from their\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tara Siler \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] Lightning-caused fires burning in Santa Cruz and San Mateo counties have triggered widespread evacuations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erin DeMerritt \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] The areas most heavily impacted by smoke are South San Francisco, Pacifica, San Mateio, Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julia McEvoy \u003c/strong>[00:00:58] If you were here, you’d be choking on the smoke right now, Brian. It’s very, very sick and the sun rose blood red just a few minutes ago. People are just waking up and trying to find their way to some sort of normality here right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Now, if you were living here in 2020, you remember how it felt. The smell of smoke in the air for weeks on end. That apocalyptic orange sky. And oh yeah, the pandemic was only in its fifth month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:01:25] For 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this year in the middle of a historic event. It is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:42] In the end, these fires killed 31 people and destroyed approximately 9,000 structures. Overall, 4.2 million acres across California burned during the firestorms of 2020, the most in the recorded history of the state. So today on the show, as we mark five years since that orange sky day, we’re bringing you stories from the people who lived through the 2020 fires in their own words. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:12] My name is Nate Erickson. I lived in the Bay Area, lived in South Bay up until 2016. Moved up to Sonoma County, lived in Santa Rosa and Petaluma. And then in 2020, I got a new territory. I was in sales in Livermore. I moved to Livermore March 1st, and then March 17th, everything shut down. So my birthday was August 14th. And I decided to go camping by myself up in Humboldt. So I put my phone away, had the best time that I could possibly have in the Redwoods, a very peaceful, amazing time. I was really enjoying myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] But then Sunday came around, I pulled out my phone just to check my route, and that’s when I learned about the fires. I saw my stepmom posting that she was, she and my dad were being evacuated. All the alarm bells in my head went off. And so realized that there was a fire in Mendocino between me and home. And so just trying to figure out all of the details necessary to get home. So I just got on 101 South and started going. As I started to get close to Mendocin, I did start to see just this massive plume of smoke. As I kept getting closer to it, it was just such a surreal experience. And I think I also remember being on 101 and just seeing on the hill to my right, just seeing fire at the crest of that hill right there. And after the previous couple years of the previous fires, that was probably the closest that I had come to actually being face-to-face with the fire. I really just remember this seeing that plume of smoke and just not wanting to keep going. I mean, it’s kind of that fight or flight situation where I don’t want to go towards this anymore, but it’s between me and home. Also just thinking about my parents, my dad and my stepmom, just thinking what’s happening to them. They live still in the Santa Cruz mountains. I came to find out later the fire came within a half mile of their house. My parents got into a hotel, they told me to stay away. They were taking the COVID precautions very serious. They told me they were safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:04:42] When I got home, I think that just became a time of doom scrolling and making phone calls. Finding out not just my dad and my stepmom, what’s going on with them, but just other friends with their shelter in place that was happening. I didn’t really have a lot of other options. That was kind of a. Helpless feeling too, because you have your friends that are potentially in danger, and during normal times, you would drive to them and try to support. But at that point, I didn’t really know what to do. Uh, it was very smoky, uh, in Livermore. That I think that was more of a hit to my psyche than just the fire itself. Just because after the previous couple of years of living through similar situations of just breathing in smoke for a couple of weeks, it’s just, it became to be a lot. The week of the orange skies, that was very surreal. Uh, I remember that day very specifically. I was sitting in. Parking lot and that was the day of my review with my bosses. I was so frustrated and just really upset and just like, are we really doing this right now? Does this, we still have to jump through these corporate hoops and fill out, check these boxes and the sky looks like the apocalypse or Mars or something and we’re talking about KPIs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Ericson \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] What led to the point of me wanting to move to Wisconsin, I don’t know if it was an exact moment where like a switch flipped, but it was a very quick decision. After the previous years of living through the fires and breathing in smoke and also just the cost of living, I had enough money to purchase a home, but never in the Bay Area. It’s that uncertainty, right? I didn’t know if this was gonna be an annual thing now. It was three years in a row, and then that was kind of the climax of that story, right? I definitely think about that time quite a bit. It’s definitely still like unresolved, unprocessed trauma. Moving here now with the Canada wildfires, pushing smoke into the Midwest. And I was back going to the hardware store to buy N95 masks again. That first time I was just. So upset and we had it again this year so it’s always like a constant annual reminder of just how I felt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When I look back at that time and 4.2 million acres burned, it is the most consequential fire season of my career. I’ve been working for 29 years. My name is George Morris III, and I am the Northern Region Chief for CAL FIRE. My area of responsibility is from Monterey County up to the Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] So leading into August 15th, which is when the lightning started, we had a heat dome laid over California for a significant amount of time, and some record temperatures were hitting. We were in the 110 degree range for weeks coming out of that It was a tropical storm, Fausto started to break up and this monsoonal moisture came up the Sierras. And everything came down to in those early moments, allocation of resources and trying to figure out, okay, we have finite resources, namely our incident management teams. Where do we deploy them? Where do commit them? We were on a continuous deployment of resources essentially through that time. And every time you thought you were gonna, you’re gonna get ahead, The original lightning-caused fires gave way to other mega-fires like the glass fire in Napa County and Sonoma County that just continued to stress the system over that period. In my career, every 10 years or so, there’s a lightning siege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Morris III \u003c/strong>[00:08:55] You can look at 1999, 2008, and then 2020. But in the era of the megafire, that propagation of large and damaging fire has just been really pronounced. And for 2020, we recognized that as it was going on at this we’re in the middle of a historic event. Just dealing with the fires on the landscape was a challenge in and of itself, but they were also doing an incredible amount of damage to property. In the example of the North Complex, killing civilians as it moved into Berry Creek, they were significant complex events. It’s funny when I think back on it now, just how hard we were going and for how long. I’m happy that we could limit the damage to 4.2 million acres, given how difficult that operational reality was. So fast forward to today, you know, we learned a lot through that process too. Our technological capability has increased since 2020. We are, our predictive modeling is, is better. It’s at the, it’s at the fingertips of the firefighter now. So the next one we get, the public will be better informed to make good decisions and hopefully loss of life can be We’re in the era of the mega fire and we’re likely to see large and damaging fires in California for a variety of reasons. Climate change is one of those reasons. Encroachment into the wildland-urban interface. Most fires are caused by human activity. It was kind of a recipe there that are making fires larger and more damaging. In my early career, you could go on a 30,000 acre fire and you think I’ll never see anything like that again. But that is a naive thought as a young firefighter because the reality is it’s California, it’s a Mediterranean climate. It has always had a recipe for fire, and fire has always been part of its landscape. But there’s 40 million people on that landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton \u003c/strong>[00:11:14] Tell me, tell me who you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:18] Alana Semuels. Right now I’m in New York City, but I live in the Hudson Valley in New york state. Um, so yeah, so I was living in San Francisco. I should start off by saying San Francisco is like my favorite place in the whole world. I love just walking around and seeing all the beautiful views. I remember I saw the went to went to ocean beach to see the sunset and the colors are really vivid and I kind of thought, Oh, that’s unusual. That usually happens when there’s a fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:11:46] And over the next couple of days, um, you know, there were, I think there were a couple of fires going on at the time. And the air quality got worse and worse. I was pregnant at the time, so I stopped taking walks outside, the air was really hazy, we didn’t have air conditioning, and it was just really unpleasant. We couldn’t open our windows. We lived in a west-facing apartment, so it got a lot of heat. And I don’t know if I would say sun, because the sun was kind of blocked by the haze and the bad air. But just kind of everything I loved about San Francisco was suddenly gone. My husband and I just kept having this debate of should we open the windows? He didn’t want to because he thought the air quality was too bad. I was just like, we’re suffocating in here. It feels like we’re in some box. And the air got a little cooler at night. So one night I got so desperate, I was so hot that I went outside to sleep on our deck chairs and get some relief, at least get a little breeze or a little cool air. And I remember waking up with just kind of a fine layer of grit on the chairs and on me. And just feeling filthy and going back inside and wanting to hide it from my husband that I’d been outside because he was so worried about the air quality. I think I was about eight months pregnant at the time. And I remember calling UCSF, which is where I was getting care and expecting them to be like, oh, you’re fine, don’t worry about it. And they were like, well, if you’re not breathing properly, then your baby’s not getting the oxygen or just the baby isn’t getting what it needs. And that’s when we decided to rent a hotel room to at least get some air conditioning to feel like I could breathe deeply. It just felt like there was no relief. There was nowhere you could go to get relief and to feel clean and to feel like you’re breathing clean air. And even, you know, I think even in LA it was happening. So it just felt like the world was burning. It wasn’t just San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alana Samuels \u003c/strong>[00:14:02] We rented Airbnb in South San Francisco, this was probably the worst day. And we woke up and it was like eight and it’s like the sun hadn’t come up. And I was like, did all the clocks fail? Or did what happened? We drove back to our house and it was just like people had their lights on. It was still dark out and it was that day that everything turned orange and for whatever reason, I guess it was the haze and the smoke, the sun just didn’t really come up and you took pictures and everything looked orange and that was when we were really like, this is not sustainable. I don’t know if we can continue to live like this. We had been talking about moving to the East Coast because both of our families are on the East coast, but San Francisco is my favorite place on the planet. And, you know, it’s just a place that kind of makes my chest relax and I just love it. And I think after that summer and after those days, we just felt like we couldn’t go through it again unless we had a lot of money. You know, you can probably install some sort of air purifying air conditioning system. To your house if you own your house, which we couldn’t afford to do. And it just felt like we couldn’t do that summer after summer after Summer. This place is ahead of the rest of the country in terms of what it’s gonna have to deal with, with the water as well. And we just thought it’s just too much of a sacrifice to make, which I’m really sad about. I wish that wasn’t the case because I love San Francisco and I’m jealous of people who are able to live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:16:05] I saw the lightning that night and I knew immediately that it was a high fire risk and then I couldn’t reach them because the power went out right away. I am Leigh-Anne Lehrman, and I am a CZU fire survivor, as are my kids. So I had actually just been diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer. So I was up, I was actually not staying there that August. I was staying up in Woodside with my fiance. My older daughter was in between her freshman and sophomore year. Of college at Berkeley and her younger sister was only 15 and they were holding out in the fort in Bonny Doon. It’s a rural area, really tight community. We had lived there since 2001 so we were very embedded in the community. The girls obviously grew up there. They were born there in the house that we had. I had just had a double mastectomy like a week before, and we woke up in the middle of the night to lightning strikes all over the place. It was beautiful but also terrifying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leigh-Anne Lehrman \u003c/strong>[00:17:36] Over the course of the next two days, the winds were very strong, it was blowing it right in their direction, and it was spreading by embers from hilltop to hilltop, so it’s spread very, very fast and. It was not looking good for Bonnie Doon. I started really panicking, and then I couldn’t reach them at all. And there was a long night when I was trying to get a hold of them and tell them to get out. 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"content": "\u003cp>Hundreds of volunteers across the state have signed up to ‘\u003ca href=\"https://ndlon.org/adopt-a-day-labor-corner/\">adopt\u003c/a>‘ street corners near where day laborers gather to find work. Their goal? To keep an eye out for Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED labor correspondent Farida Jhabvala Romero takes us to one intersection in East Oakland to meet the people offering their time to watch out for ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054317/volunteers-help-monitor-for-ice-activity-near-where-day-laborers-gather\">Volunteers ‘Adopt’ Street Corners To Monitor For ICE Activity \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7640200941&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Jessica Kariisa, in for Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:07] Way over there. You have to look at a car that comes in, it’s suspicious, we’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] This is Julio. He’s a day laborer in Oakland. On some mornings, he stands on a corner waiting for someone to offer him work. It could be in landscaping or construction, but he’s really not picky. He’ll do most work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Whatever, whatever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Julio’s already in a vulnerable position. He’s standing outside on a public corner, waiting to interact with strangers. But these days, it’s even more dangerous because many day laborers, including Julio, are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsreel \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] This cell phone video shows another raid. This happened at a Home Depot in Westlake. Now agents pulled up in unmarked vans and you can see the panic and the fear in the streets among the street vendors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:12] An increase in ICE activity has also led to a lot more fear among day laborers like Julio. But volunteers are responding. They’re showing up to those same street corners to keep watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:01:29] I believe in social justice, I believe right and wrong, and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] Today, why volunteers are adopting street corners for day laborers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] So I went to this intersection in East Oakland in the morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:07] It’s really busy, you know. There’s a lot of parents walking their kids to a nearby school, people waiting for the bus. It was a U-Haul parking lot. There was a lot activity there, in addition to about 10 to 12 day laborers waiting for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] And why did you want to go to to that corner?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:26] Yeah, so that’s where a training was gonna happen for volunteers of a program called Adopt a Day Laborer Corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:02:37] Right, the hardest thing is always being a step ahead of this department, right, of this agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:42] The idea is that people who want to support folks who might be at risk of detention by immigration authorities or stops by immigration authorities and who want to just, you know, support physically often vulnerable immigrants like delivers by being there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:03:02] And yeah, I’ve definitely seen corners where, you know, day laborers are waiting for work. I haven’t seen volunteers there waiting there with them. Can you tell me a little bit more about what the volunteers were doing when you were there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn’t know what exactly we were going to find, but I was very curious and the reason I worked on the story was I was curious about who was getting up early in the morning to do something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:28] I need to be out with the community I can’t and immigration has always been a real heartbreaker for me and it’s always been in my heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:37] I’m gonna only use their first names because both were afraid or concerned about negative impacts of their full names being out. So one of the volunteers I met, her name is Christy, and she’s 60 years old. She’s an interpreter. She lives in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:54] So I just decided, this seems like something I can do. I’m bilingual, I can look out, I have…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:00] And then the other volunteer is Wendy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] Yeah, I’ve been here a few times. This will be my second week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:10] And it was really interesting because Wendy works in public health, she actually lives nearby and she said she’d been you know spending time in the mornings there bringing her knitting and like chatting with with workers while she sat there. Both of them spoke Spanish you know they’re you know white American ladies who speak Spanish and so they felt like their jobs were either flexible enough in schedule or they could make time in a morning before their jobs to show up and do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:41] I’m not much of one for writing letters or emailing or calling, but this is something I can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:04:49] Can you tell me a bit more about why they said they were out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:53] So I think both of these women were really activated by the recent bystander videos we’ve seen of federal agents detaining people in the Los Angeles area and nearby counties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:10] You know, watching what was going on in LA just broke my heart. It’s like, how can I, you know, be of service for a community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:18] And then, especially, Christy talked about how she was really distressed by videos of immigration agents violently detaining people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:29] I believe in social justice. I believe in right and wrong and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:05:43] And this call that they heard to adopt a day laborer corner, where did it come from? Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:50] Yeah, so there’s been an organization for a long time called the National Day Laborer Organizing Network. They’re based in Southern California, but they’re national. They have, I think, dozens of organizations like Street Level Health Project in Oakland that are part of this network. And so what they told me is that for years they’ve encouraged people to sort of make neighbors, employers, other folks to make a connection with these day laborers, you know, and like bring them coffee or not be afraid to chat with them outside of, you know, work projects. When the LA immigration operations started really heating up in the summer, they sort of formalized that initiative and made it into this Adopt a Corner program. They said they got like thousands of people, you know, attending their trainings, and so they’ve had a massive spike in interest, you now, to show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:06:53] So say I decide to adopt a coroner. Is the goal for me if I see an ICE raid happening or if I see ICE coming to stop that from happening or to stop someone from being detained, what exactly is the goal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:08] No, that is not the goal. The main goal is just to first monitor what’s happening. What we’ve seen with immigration enforcement is often they don’t have identification that says immigration or ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When it comes to adopt a corner, your position is more as a watch out. We want you to be very aware of your surroundings and very vigilant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:36] Steve Robles is with Street Level Health Project, which is an organization, I think their office is in the Fruitvale. Steve was talking to the volunteers about what they were expected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:50] One thing that we’ve noticed is if a truck is large enough to have people standing up in the back, that’s a big red flag because what they’re doing is these raids happen in maybe five minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:03] He told them that ICE arrests, especially in public places, can happen very quickly. And their job as volunteers is to, as soon as they spot, you know, this kind of activity happening or something they suspect, this, you know immigration enforcement showing up, to call a number that alerts a wider network of immigrant advocates and lawyers, and at the same time to try to document what’s happening with their cell phones. After arrests happen, people need to figure out who was arrested, you know, and then try to alert the relatives. So there’s that kind of gathering of information that will help later on. It’s getting maybe legal help to people who need it, alerting relatives or friends about what’s happened and that kind stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:08:59] So really like serving as a witness and then helping to activate a chain of events that might allow someone to get more resources and more help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:09:16] For the day laborers themselves, seeing these volunteers, how does that make them feel? Do they feel safer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:34] At first people are like who are these folks you know why are you just standing there and then the day laborers felt like well I mean it’s another pair of eyes right that is here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:45] It’s good that they live here because it’s more protected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:49] It feels like there’s more people besides the workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:53] There’s more people, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:54] Julio is a day laborer, originally from Honduras, because of his immigration status, we’re not using his full name. He’s been in the States for a long time, and mostly works construction, landscaping jobs, but he says he comes to this particular corner in Oakland, you know, when he’s done with those jobs and is in between jobs, to try to supplement his income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] You have to be careful because you don’t know what’s going to happen. You have a suspicious car coming. We’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:32] He was very vigilant while we were talking. A lot of these, I think the immigration enforcement in Southern California has really made these folks who were already concerned about ICE agents showing up be even more worried about that. And because of the nature of their job, I mean, you have like vehicles coming up to them and then a potential employer asking who wants to work, explaining about the terms for the project. But when new people approach, they’re trying to figure out if it’s safe to even come close to that vehicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:11:09] Yeah, I mean, it sounds incredibly stressful. And I imagine Julio has so many other things going on, you know, trying to get work and, you know trying to also stay in the country. I wonder what is his most pressing need as a day laborer? And like, are initiatives like Adopt a Corner helping him?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:30] We’ll see you know what the impact is but for day laborers I mean they’re out there because they need the work. They need to make money they need to pay rent they need to they often send money back to their home countries to their families Julio said he was like sending money to his daughter he’s you know in college in Honduras so I think their most pressing needs remain the same which is you know like make a living. Even though we’ve heard that the number of day laborers definitely went down in these very public spaces, you know, many still need to like make money so they have to come out. And here in Northern California, we have not seen that level of immigration enforcement that we’ve seen in LA. But there’s definitely a sense that people are watching and they’re trying to prepare. And so I think the volunteers I spoke with felt like this was something that they could start doing now to build those relationships, figure out what corner they’re going to be in, and then if needed, they’ll be there. So I think a lot of this is a lot preparation in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] Yeah, yeah. Sort of picking up on that, you know, on the other side of it, you know, people watching all these things happening, seeing all these viral videos. There have been different responses to it. We’ve seen huge protests in the Bay Area all across California. I’m wondering how you see a program like this, you know, fitting into, like, the broader efforts around, like responding to what’s happening around immigration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:10] I think there’s a lot of organizing and trying to reach out to different people that are interested in getting involved. And so I think that there’s been a little more urgency. With this program, in particular, what the volunteers told me is they needed another avenue to feel like they could do something that they believe will help the broader community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:13:40] It helps to be actually doing a thing and even if it’s only a little bit useful, you know, because me being here, is that going to prevent people getting picked up by ICE if ICE shows up? Probably not, but we can mitigate some of the harm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:53] For Wendy, that was a way to show solidarity. She also lives in the neighborhood, and so these folks are part of her community in a way. She sees them all the time as she’s going to work. And so for her, it was like going a step beyond and spend time at the corner, observing and just monitoring for things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:14:17] There’s so much going on, but you have to find something. It’s important. We got to take, we have to take care of ourselves. You know, it’s only us.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Jessica Kariisa, in for Ericka Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:07] Way over there. You have to look at a car that comes in, it’s suspicious, we’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] This is Julio. He’s a day laborer in Oakland. On some mornings, he stands on a corner waiting for someone to offer him work. It could be in landscaping or construction, but he’s really not picky. He’ll do most work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] Whatever, whatever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Julio’s already in a vulnerable position. He’s standing outside on a public corner, waiting to interact with strangers. But these days, it’s even more dangerous because many day laborers, including Julio, are undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsreel \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] This cell phone video shows another raid. This happened at a Home Depot in Westlake. Now agents pulled up in unmarked vans and you can see the panic and the fear in the streets among the street vendors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:12] An increase in ICE activity has also led to a lot more fear among day laborers like Julio. But volunteers are responding. They’re showing up to those same street corners to keep watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:01:29] I believe in social justice, I believe right and wrong, and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] Today, why volunteers are adopting street corners for day laborers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] So I went to this intersection in East Oakland in the morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:07] It’s really busy, you know. There’s a lot of parents walking their kids to a nearby school, people waiting for the bus. It was a U-Haul parking lot. There was a lot activity there, in addition to about 10 to 12 day laborers waiting for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] And why did you want to go to to that corner?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:26] Yeah, so that’s where a training was gonna happen for volunteers of a program called Adopt a Day Laborer Corner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:02:37] Right, the hardest thing is always being a step ahead of this department, right, of this agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:42] The idea is that people who want to support folks who might be at risk of detention by immigration authorities or stops by immigration authorities and who want to just, you know, support physically often vulnerable immigrants like delivers by being there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:03:02] And yeah, I’ve definitely seen corners where, you know, day laborers are waiting for work. I haven’t seen volunteers there waiting there with them. Can you tell me a little bit more about what the volunteers were doing when you were there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn’t know what exactly we were going to find, but I was very curious and the reason I worked on the story was I was curious about who was getting up early in the morning to do something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:28] I need to be out with the community I can’t and immigration has always been a real heartbreaker for me and it’s always been in my heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:37] I’m gonna only use their first names because both were afraid or concerned about negative impacts of their full names being out. So one of the volunteers I met, her name is Christy, and she’s 60 years old. She’s an interpreter. She lives in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:03:54] So I just decided, this seems like something I can do. I’m bilingual, I can look out, I have…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:00] And then the other volunteer is Wendy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:03] Yeah, I’ve been here a few times. This will be my second week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:10] And it was really interesting because Wendy works in public health, she actually lives nearby and she said she’d been you know spending time in the mornings there bringing her knitting and like chatting with with workers while she sat there. Both of them spoke Spanish you know they’re you know white American ladies who speak Spanish and so they felt like their jobs were either flexible enough in schedule or they could make time in a morning before their jobs to show up and do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:04:41] I’m not much of one for writing letters or emailing or calling, but this is something I can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:04:49] Can you tell me a bit more about why they said they were out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:53] So I think both of these women were really activated by the recent bystander videos we’ve seen of federal agents detaining people in the Los Angeles area and nearby counties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:10] You know, watching what was going on in LA just broke my heart. It’s like, how can I, you know, be of service for a community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:18] And then, especially, Christy talked about how she was really distressed by videos of immigration agents violently detaining people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christy \u003c/strong>[00:05:29] I believe in social justice. I believe in right and wrong and I can’t sit on my hands and say that’s wrong without doing something about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:05:43] And this call that they heard to adopt a day laborer corner, where did it come from? Who’s behind it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:50] Yeah, so there’s been an organization for a long time called the National Day Laborer Organizing Network. They’re based in Southern California, but they’re national. They have, I think, dozens of organizations like Street Level Health Project in Oakland that are part of this network. And so what they told me is that for years they’ve encouraged people to sort of make neighbors, employers, other folks to make a connection with these day laborers, you know, and like bring them coffee or not be afraid to chat with them outside of, you know, work projects. When the LA immigration operations started really heating up in the summer, they sort of formalized that initiative and made it into this Adopt a Corner program. They said they got like thousands of people, you know, attending their trainings, and so they’ve had a massive spike in interest, you now, to show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:06:53] So say I decide to adopt a coroner. Is the goal for me if I see an ICE raid happening or if I see ICE coming to stop that from happening or to stop someone from being detained, what exactly is the goal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:08] No, that is not the goal. The main goal is just to first monitor what’s happening. What we’ve seen with immigration enforcement is often they don’t have identification that says immigration or ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:26] When it comes to adopt a corner, your position is more as a watch out. We want you to be very aware of your surroundings and very vigilant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:36] Steve Robles is with Street Level Health Project, which is an organization, I think their office is in the Fruitvale. Steve was talking to the volunteers about what they were expected to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Robles \u003c/strong>[00:07:50] One thing that we’ve noticed is if a truck is large enough to have people standing up in the back, that’s a big red flag because what they’re doing is these raids happen in maybe five minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:03] He told them that ICE arrests, especially in public places, can happen very quickly. And their job as volunteers is to, as soon as they spot, you know, this kind of activity happening or something they suspect, this, you know immigration enforcement showing up, to call a number that alerts a wider network of immigrant advocates and lawyers, and at the same time to try to document what’s happening with their cell phones. After arrests happen, people need to figure out who was arrested, you know, and then try to alert the relatives. So there’s that kind of gathering of information that will help later on. It’s getting maybe legal help to people who need it, alerting relatives or friends about what’s happened and that kind stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:08:59] So really like serving as a witness and then helping to activate a chain of events that might allow someone to get more resources and more help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:09:16] For the day laborers themselves, seeing these volunteers, how does that make them feel? Do they feel safer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:34] At first people are like who are these folks you know why are you just standing there and then the day laborers felt like well I mean it’s another pair of eyes right that is here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:45] It’s good that they live here because it’s more protected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:49] It feels like there’s more people besides the workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julio \u003c/strong>[00:09:53] There’s more people, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:54] Julio is a day laborer, originally from Honduras, because of his immigration status, we’re not using his full name. He’s been in the States for a long time, and mostly works construction, landscaping jobs, but he says he comes to this particular corner in Oakland, you know, when he’s done with those jobs and is in between jobs, to try to supplement his income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] You have to be careful because you don’t know what’s going to happen. You have a suspicious car coming. We’re all there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:32] He was very vigilant while we were talking. A lot of these, I think the immigration enforcement in Southern California has really made these folks who were already concerned about ICE agents showing up be even more worried about that. And because of the nature of their job, I mean, you have like vehicles coming up to them and then a potential employer asking who wants to work, explaining about the terms for the project. But when new people approach, they’re trying to figure out if it’s safe to even come close to that vehicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:11:09] Yeah, I mean, it sounds incredibly stressful. And I imagine Julio has so many other things going on, you know, trying to get work and, you know trying to also stay in the country. I wonder what is his most pressing need as a day laborer? And like, are initiatives like Adopt a Corner helping him?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:30] We’ll see you know what the impact is but for day laborers I mean they’re out there because they need the work. They need to make money they need to pay rent they need to they often send money back to their home countries to their families Julio said he was like sending money to his daughter he’s you know in college in Honduras so I think their most pressing needs remain the same which is you know like make a living. Even though we’ve heard that the number of day laborers definitely went down in these very public spaces, you know, many still need to like make money so they have to come out. And here in Northern California, we have not seen that level of immigration enforcement that we’ve seen in LA. But there’s definitely a sense that people are watching and they’re trying to prepare. And so I think the volunteers I spoke with felt like this was something that they could start doing now to build those relationships, figure out what corner they’re going to be in, and then if needed, they’ll be there. So I think a lot of this is a lot preparation in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] Yeah, yeah. Sort of picking up on that, you know, on the other side of it, you know, people watching all these things happening, seeing all these viral videos. There have been different responses to it. We’ve seen huge protests in the Bay Area all across California. I’m wondering how you see a program like this, you know, fitting into, like, the broader efforts around, like responding to what’s happening around immigration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:10] I think there’s a lot of organizing and trying to reach out to different people that are interested in getting involved. And so I think that there’s been a little more urgency. With this program, in particular, what the volunteers told me is they needed another avenue to feel like they could do something that they believe will help the broader community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wendy \u003c/strong>[00:13:40] It helps to be actually doing a thing and even if it’s only a little bit useful, you know, because me being here, is that going to prevent people getting picked up by ICE if ICE shows up? Probably not, but we can mitigate some of the harm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Farida Jhabvala Romero \u003c/strong>[00:13:53] For Wendy, that was a way to show solidarity. She also lives in the neighborhood, and so these folks are part of her community in a way. She sees them all the time as she’s going to work. And so for her, it was like going a step beyond and spend time at the corner, observing and just monitoring for things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Younger generations of Latinos are openly talking about their strained bilingual journeys, calling themselves either “pocho or pocha” or “no sabo kids,” both of which allude to a lack of Spanish fluency. For many U.S. Latinos, struggling with Spanish raises questions about identity and feeling truly connected to their culture. At the same time, Spanish-dominant Latinos in the U.S. face a different set of challenges with finding belonging as they navigate an English-forward society. Both sides are contending with language barriers, so how do we stand strong in ourselves and our native tongues? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with Spanish-language comedian Angelo Colina and Spanglish podcaster Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss to discuss the pride and struggle of living between languages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7078599028&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/yUR4IjqHoSA\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/rachellaloca/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://rachellaloca.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1330248548\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Latinos Out Loud Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Angelo Colina (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/angelocolina/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@angelocolina?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.angelo-colina.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tickets to see Angelo live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m giving you two seconds to tell me how to say the word grapefruit in Spanish. Alright, guess the one. Now, the correct answer, at least the one I know, is toronja. But the judges here are telling me that we’re also accepting pomelo. So if you said either one of those two, felicidades, te debo unos cancitos. But if you had asked 10-year-old me, I would have yelled out, fruta de uva! Fruta de Uva. You guys, that is not a hypothetical situation. There was a time, I was at a restaurant with my grandmother and I asked her if she wanted some fruta de uva, qué vergüenza. But, hey, at least I know the difference between avergüenzado and embarazado, eh? Por favor, I’m not that pocho. Pendejo a veces, pero pocho, no. Now, I feel like a native Spanish speaker would say differently, because I am not one. Yes, I grew up surrounded by English and Spanish on the border, but I’ve never been able to confidently say that I am incredibly fluent. Can I carry a conversation with my Spanish monolingual relatives? Sure. Am I able to respond to questions from my suegros? I’d like to think so. But deep down, I feel like they’re always thinking, “Pobrecito no sabe.” Because the further I get away from my Spanish, the closer I am, I think, to losing my Latino card, which I’m holding onto for dear life. But the truth is, I am a product of my third-gen, Mexican-American circumstances. So how do I exist between these two languages? I’m Xorge Olivares, y hoy preguntamos, how does language make me who I am? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, I just shared a very embarrassing story about my inability to know Spanish that well. So I wanna ask each of my guests if they have a similar moment, embarrassing moment, something that they’re like, oh, I never wanna relive again when it comes to either English or Spanish. So first excited to welcome to the program, Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss, who I must bow down to as one of the OG Latino podcasters has paved the way for me and many others in this field. She is the host of the Latinos Out Loud podcast. She is also an adjunct professor at CUNY, which is the City University of New York. Rachel, thank you for joining me for this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. Thank you for that really warm introduction. I’m really, really happy to be here. I have so many embarrassing language stories, but this one is still pretty fresh. And it all happened when I was maybe seven years old, which was a really long time ago. My mother’s Dominican. And I remember one time as, you know, mind you, I grew up half Jewish and half Catholic. So like just mixed race and mixed up. So we were at my Tia’s house and she told me in Spanish, She was like. Pide la mano de tu tía. So I took my tía’s hand. And I’m like, okay, what do you want me to do with it now? And she was like, no, no no no, es que cuando tu pide la mano le está preguntando por una bendición. So like pide a mano is asking for a blessing from your tía and I had no idea. I just thought she told me to grab my tia’s hand and you know, you do what your mom tells you to do no matter how weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I would have done the same thing. Even now, I wouldn’t have thought that that’s what she was telling you to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally, and then after like she told me in english what to do i was like oh bendición tia and then of course she was like dios te bendiga so ever since then i’m like oh that’s how you pide la bendición like the Dominican way got it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. Okay, okay. See, now I’m putting this in my back pocket so that way if anybody ever asks, I can say that this is what that particularly means. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Also excited to welcome to the program Angelo Colina, who is a stand-up comedian. I’d like to say I was telling the group here, my production team, that my algorithm serves me up drag queens, gay men, and Angelo Colina comedy sets. So that’s how deep in I am in watching Angelo’s comedy. But he is the creator of the Gente Funny comedy showcase, that is a Spanish language comedy showcase that is touring the country right now. Angelo, thank you so much for joining us. And do you have an embarrassing moment that you’d be willing to share with us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, nice to meet you both. Second, I think the reason why I come up in your grade, it might be my high waist pants or just my mustache. It’s both of them, I get in the mix of those mixes you were mentioning. And for me, it was the other way around. So that’s funny because I didn’t grow up here. I’ve only been here for eight years or so, seven years. And so… It wasn’t that way for me. It was mostly, and when I was learning English, we were just learning. So you’re kind of allowed to make mistakes. And so I didn’t have that embarrassing moment. And then when I came here, I already spoke English. And so for me, it was the other way around because I used to be an English and a Spanish teacher. For me, how do I correct this person without making them feel embarrassed about themselves? But the things I heard were actually. The reason why I started doing stand-up like my first show was about those mistakes like we call them in when we do the English lessons we call it false friends which are words that look like familiar to you in a language but then they’re not and so like I had students telling me, teacher, I don’t import, like no me importa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for me, that was all the time, how do I correct them without making them feel embarrassed? So once a student told me that in Colombia, he said, teacher, I don’t import, I’m like, no, no. You export. And then a couple of students got the joke. And that’s how, that’s I started teaching the differences. So that’s funny, but I would have been your tia is what I’m trying to say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love, you know, what’s interesting is that my dad was a Spanish teacher, a high school Spanish teacher for many, many years. And so I feel like for me, even though my dad was a Spanish teacher, I don’t have the best command of Spanish, so I actually want to start the conversation there, Rachel, if we can talk about how you feel like you have a good or maybe not so good command of Spanish, considering how you grew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well Jorge, we’re more connected than you think, because my father was also a Spanish teacher, okay? That’s how, like, my parents met. My mother didn’t speak English. My father was studying to be a Spanish Teacher that summer on Brighton Beach, and they hooked up. Pero, that will save that for another episode. But I feel like my command of Spanish should be so much better being the daughter of a woman born in the Dominican Republic where Spanish is her native language, and the daughter of a Spanish teacher in New York City public schools for close to 30 years. However, let me give myself some grace, okay?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before I took the dive into comedy, I was working a corporate gig. I was at like every Spanish language magazine. Remember magazines? Like the thing that you turn with your. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mhmm! People en Español!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes! So I worked at People en Español for a really long time. I worked a Latina, I worked in Vanidades, a bunch of different magazines. And my command of Spanish was so much better during those years. Like, I was able to read in Spanish, write in Spanish. And now, I find it so hard to, like, get words that I need. But I speak Spanglish fluently, AF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thank you for saying that because I always say that my first language is actually Spanglish because I don’t know when Spanish happened. I don’t know when English happened. It just tada! I knew both languages somehow when I was three or four, whatever age it was. So I’m curious for you, Angelo, one, about your command of let’s say English because you were born in Venezuela, correct? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So maybe let’s talk about command of English. And I am curious as we’ve brought up Spanglish, if you have any particular feelings about the usage of Spanglish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I do. And I was actually, I’m on the other side in the sense, it might be a generational thing because so, I lived in Venezuela for 20 years, then I lived in Colombia for two years, then I came here to the States. What I used to see was that there was some type of shame between, well, coming from the Latinos who grew up in Latin America to the ones who were born in the States and they didn’t speak Spanish fluently. And there was that type of shame in that entire conversation. Uh, everyone would make jokes about it. Like for me coming to shows in Spanish, that would happen a lot. And for me, I feel like when people say, oh, they’re not real Latinos because they were born here, whatever, I’m like. I would completely disagree, because I feel like people learn how to be Latinos when they aren’t here, because you’re aware of other nationalities. And I used to say when I was in Venezuela, cuando yo estaba en Venezuela yo no era Latino, yo era venezolano. Y cuando vivia en Colombia tampoco era Latino, era un malparido Venezolano, but you are still not that. That’s what I’m trying to say. You’re not Latino until you are here in the States and you’re aware of like pupusas. I had never had one. And so now you start connecting. With other nationalities, with other people like, that’s what it is. I don’t think there should be any type of shame of not being fluent because at the same time, the way you speak, it just has like, you just spoke like, Dominican Spanish like a while ago, you know that that’s as pure as it gets. And it’s the same the other way around, where people are, I see that a lot now at the shows, a lot of people bring their partners who are, let’s say they have a white husband and he’s learning Spanish and he says a word in Spanish and everyone’s like, yeah, or they’re laughing. It’s like we’re encouraging people to learn. And I’m like, yeah, that doesn’t happen the other way around. And it should, because when people are not speaking English fluently, it’s like hey, that’s a second language. So I think that’s what it is. I think we should give more credit to ourselves. I think we’re killing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we’re killin it but I want to talk about the places where we do feel comfortable speaking Spanish, speaking English, speaking Spanglish, whatever iteration of language we want. And Angelo, you were just talking about this Gente Funny Showcase. It is an all Spanish language show. So talk about that, your choice to use Spanish in a professional setting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Umm, I started doing standup comedy in Salt Lake City, Utah, that I would speak in English at the time and I would do the shows in English and I still do comedy, I do standup in English every once in a while, but I just realized it wouldn’t be, the things I find funny won’t translate. And it’s not about situations, because that’s not what it is. It’s not language. It’s culture. And so. I’m way more familiar with like Latino culture and I’m like in love with it with all of the different nationalities and I try to learn a lot. It’s really not funny if I go to, I don’t know, the Upper West Side and I am doing a show in English and I make an impression of the Argentinian accent. It doesn’t really translate because we’re not aware of it. Whereas with the, if I do it in Spanish about the Argentinean or the Dominican or I speak about our differences. It automatically translates because we share a lot more of the references. But I do think in general, the audiences, Latino audiences are way funnier than any other audience. Like the Dominicans listening to you they be like “Que tu dices mi loco” and it’s like, they’re just funnier!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel, you are somebody who has had a microphone and I love that you could see the bedazzled microphone. If you’re watching us on YouTube, there’s a beautifully pink bedazzled, the microphone in front of Rachel. But we are in a beautiful position that we do have microphones in front of us. So how do you make the choice on what language comes out when you do record in front of that pink bedazzled microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I think in English and I translate to Spanish, but sometimes the slang is so much easier in Español. ¿Tu me entiendes loco? You know? Like right then and there, like for emphasis, the Dominicanisms work really well for me. You know. Tu estas pasado, You know like things like se me sale de la boca\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ya tu sabes lo que lo es loco, KLK! Yeah, so I tend to like to think in English. And let me tell you, I’m the most under pressure in front of family. You know, I feel like I have to say the right vocabulary word. I’m terrible at conjugating verbs and like tenses in Spanish. It’s so hard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hate that, it’s really with my family, like the people who shouldn’t judge you, even though they do judge you and bully you and do all the things like before anybody else does. Like, I didn’t think that I would feel so vulnerable around them speaking Spanish, but that’s exactly who I hate speaking Spanish with because of the like, oh, poor guy. We didn’t teach him right. Oh, this is a failure on us because he doesn’t know the language of his grandmother or grandfather or whatever, antepasado is the one who spoke Spanish the most. I’m curious, Rachel, if you’ve noticed that, especially growing up in New York, there’s so many different Latinos that you can experience in New york. Just seeing how distinct your accent was or how special it was in comparison to other Latinos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I get Brooklyn right away. People somehow know that I’m from freaking Brooklyn. I’m like, forget about it. How? I don’t understand. What are you talking about? Yeah, like, hey, can I get some water? And they’re like, you’re from Brooklyn, aren’t you? Yeah. I, I really try my hardest to represent, you know, for the cultura, as you were saying earlier. And it’s beyond just sounding Dominican or Rican or… You know, whatever it is, what comes out of my mouth, I think, is is New York. But I don’t really identify that much with like sounding Dominican. Like I can sound Dominican sometimes true talk. But like I also people tell me like, oh, you must be Puerto Rican. I’m like, no, not at all. You know, or sometimes I get Sicilian. I don’ even get Latino. They’re like, Oh, you’re some kind of Mediterranean or something. Right. No, far from it, like I’m just like a mixed-bred girl with a little bit of everything, un sancocho, if you will. But I will say, when I start like singing my dembow, my toquicha, you mentioned Rochy, Yo me siento como una dominicana pura, loco!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, en español que se te sale, en inglés no, en ingles you could be, you’re very New York en inglés. Pero en español, sancocho. Like, as soon as you do it, una sola palabra dijiste, san-cocho, and I’m like Dominican. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For reaal? I don’t even hear it! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that though! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you’re very…I cannot tell you how Dominican you are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seriously, you guys? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your family is here from Santo Amigo or El Cibao, one of the two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I love that! I don’t hear that myself. You know, you never hear what you sound like, right? But like, I don’t think I sound Dominican. I am so proud. Let me get my guira. Hold on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hahaha! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you! [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">oh, hey!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emotional support guira, claro.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a quick little break. But when we come back, more hyphenación. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share this quick story of when I was 22 years old and I had first moved to New York, my first broadcasting on air job. I was really excited because I was gonna be able to do something that my parents could listen to. And I would be able to say, you know, Jorge Olivares every time I signed off on these broadcasts. But very quickly, I had to have a conversation with my older white supervisor who said I needed to anglicize my name. That if I was going to do anything on air, I had to say Jorge Olivares, which even now coming out of my mouth sounds really weird. And this was a shock to me because I’ve grown up on the Texas-Mexico border. Everybody knows how to say my name. I was surrounded by a bunch of Latinos growing up, so it never felt weird for me to say it how I was taught it. So I… Since then, since I was 22, I have had to be very intentional and deliberate with how I say my name because I need folks to know that I’m from the border, I’m Mexicano. I’m Tejano. I’ve got all this stuff behind me, and so definitely my relationship to my name and to language has shifted over the years. So I want to ask you, Rachel, if you’ve had a similar situation, where your relationship with either language has changed a bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you know, you actually, like, struck a chord with the name, because I feel less Latina when I say my actual government name without my stage name baked in, where it’s like, Hi, I’m Rachel Strauss. You know, like I don’t know how many I can’t tell you how many job interviews I’ve been on where I show up, I’m like, “Hi, I am Rachel Straus,” and they look at me like, no, you can’t be. You don’t look like a Strauss. Wait, what are you exactly? You know with their eyes I don’t think that’s allowed to be said by like HR and stuff. But like, um, you know, I get that feeling like, Oh, you weren’t expecting a mixed race girl who’s half Latina and whose father’s Jewish. I get it. Um, let me tell you a little bit about me. So then when I do say, “Oh I’m Rachel, la loca Strauss” that pretty much encapsulates who I am to the T. Um, I am this mixed bred that loves both of her cultures. That fully embraces being Dominican and like a descendant of Eastern European Jew, you know, Russian and a whole bunch of other stuff mixed in with the borscht. And like, it’s the name for me. I never really gave it thought until you brought up how you say your name. And I do say La Loca with intent. Because I could easily say Rachel La Loca Strauss, you know? But then I don’t sound like me, okay? It’s Rachel La Loca Strauss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, cause the thing is it is, it is what feels unnatural because I’ve never in my life said, my name is Jorge. You’ve never, in your life, have not said La Loca in the accent that you have. Right? Uh, so Angelo, did you like just thinking about accents, names, how you present yourself to the world, have you had to contend with that and, and like deal with some of the, the inner workings of how you feel about how you express yourself? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of my immigrant career in the US, I had to. Like as soon as I was in Salt Lake City, Utah, yes, I have to pronounce, I would say Angelo. But if I’m here in New York, and I do come listen, like a lot of times, it’s like, it’s my show, I’m doing my show in Spanish, it says en español, it’s just everything. I’m gonna just speak the way I speak because that’s the actual thing people are paying for. They want to see that part of themselves even, not even mine. And so they also introduce themselves pronouncing their name, how they normally wouldn’t do it. That I do see. I know they would normally say, My name is Maria, but when they see me, they go like, ah, mi nombre es Maria, mucho gusto. Like that’s, it’s like, okay, I’m free. I won’t be judged here. And so my focus, but of course, I’m lucky enough to say that because I also live in New York City where everyone’s aware of that and everyone’s like actually curious. I feel like people want to learn. And so when I have the chance to do this outside, in other cities, yes, of course, sometimes I try to…I try to sound like I have been here for longer if I’m, you know, in other places, because you feel it. I’ve been to Kansas City, you know, I’ve been to Louisville, Kentucky, I’ve been to, and it’s, it’s not as welcoming, you know. I don’t know if I would get away saying Angelo El Loco Colina. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Loca, that was also Dominican, the way you said, you said La Loca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel so Dominican right now! Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is what I love because I’m a Mexican American, Dominican American, somebody from Venezuela who has that very distinct, like we are all from our own distinct backgrounds and yet look at how much we’re having fun with, with language, with culture, with identity. And I feel like the thing that has also helped is I’ve just like me vale madre now when I speak Spanish sometimes, like I’ve had to make certain agreements with myself about like, it’s okay to be embarrassed. It’s okay to kind of walk around with your tail between your legs, just live. So I wonder Angelo, if you’ve had these moments where you had to throw all of that out the window, any preconceived feelings, any hangups? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of it was just the people around me. It’s a privilege of living here in New York City, where only the attempt of doing something with enough passion is gonna be applauded. Like people are gonna cheer you up and they’re gonna be supportive. And so I think New York did it for me. Like just people here were like, dale cabrón, dale, métate, okay, dale. Laigala, dice la gente del cibao in Dominican Republic they say laigala. I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing 100% if it wasn’t because of the community. Maybe we’re not completely unified. And nobody wants that from the others, because it would be, we would be unstoppable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna end by asking, especially as the host of a show called Hyphenacion, which we made up and it’s fun. Rachel, is there a word or a phrase that you love in Spanish that just doesn’t hit in English? That nobody, when you’re trying to do the literal translation, como que no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally and it’s so Dominican and I love to motivate others so I’m always like \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila. Ponte la pila, loco! Ponte la pila. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which I guess a literal translation of that was what to put yourself on a battery? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Put on your batteries. Put in your batteries. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah,That’s a we say it a lot too. You know what’s very Dominican? I love, my Dominican friends say it all the time. They would say en Dominicana el único país que dice and then it’s something everyone Like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We say it, Colombians say it. Everyone knows it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like we’re like just trying to like own it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love it. My friend explained me the reason but that’s a longer story. For me it’s uh it’s one that it’s used in Venezuela, Cuba, Dominicana Puerto Rico, Colombia tambien, we say alot, Ya tú sabes. But Dominicans have one now that is “Tu Supiste”, but without the S, Tu supi’te. They say, if you say, now I’m giving you this audience, use it. If a Dominican ever tells you you have to say it, if you said Tu supiste, they’ll be blown away. Because Tu Supiste implies you’ve been knowing for longer. So that’s my favorite one at the moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to ‘tu ta pasa’o’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will add mine. Mine is, uh, there’s a phrase it’s just like nada que ver. And it translates to like nothing to see, but it’s really not that it’s like this, this isn’t so little importance. It’s so dumb. That like…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>‘\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Na que ver. You say na sometimes without the d. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have had such a fun time with my, they’re all my new friends. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation about the beauty of language, the power of language. How it unites, how it distinguishes us, how, it’s just a beautiful way of identifying yourself. So thank you both for what you do. And thank you so much for, for being a part of this really fruitful, fantastic conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, this has been so fun. Congrats to you both. Let’s get it. We are hot right now. I’m here to support. La puerta ya está abierta. So come on and have some sancocho, loco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes, Rachel mi loca. Un abrazo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to say to our listeners, thank you for joining us on this first season of Hyphenación– if you like what we’ve been creating, please remember to rate and review us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and comment on our YouTube videos. It all helps us out, and helps other people find us. And if you have an idea of a topic you’d like us to cover in the future, send it over to hyp@kqed.org. For more information about our guests you can go to the show notes where you’ll find tickets to see Angelo performing in a city near you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">how you can listen to Rachel on Latinos Out Loud. But until next time, mi gente– take care! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Younger generations of Latinos are openly talking about their strained bilingual journeys, calling themselves either “pocho or pocha” or “no sabo kids,” both of which allude to a lack of Spanish fluency. For many U.S. Latinos, struggling with Spanish raises questions about identity and feeling truly connected to their culture. At the same time, Spanish-dominant Latinos in the U.S. face a different set of challenges with finding belonging as they navigate an English-forward society. Both sides are contending with language barriers, so how do we stand strong in ourselves and our native tongues? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with Spanish-language comedian Angelo Colina and Spanglish podcaster Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss to discuss the pride and struggle of living between languages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7078599028&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/yUR4IjqHoSA'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/yUR4IjqHoSA'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/rachellaloca/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://rachellaloca.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://pod.link/1330248548\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Latinos Out Loud Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Angelo Colina (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/angelocolina/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@angelocolina?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.angelo-colina.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tickets to see Angelo live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m giving you two seconds to tell me how to say the word grapefruit in Spanish. Alright, guess the one. Now, the correct answer, at least the one I know, is toronja. But the judges here are telling me that we’re also accepting pomelo. So if you said either one of those two, felicidades, te debo unos cancitos. But if you had asked 10-year-old me, I would have yelled out, fruta de uva! Fruta de Uva. You guys, that is not a hypothetical situation. There was a time, I was at a restaurant with my grandmother and I asked her if she wanted some fruta de uva, qué vergüenza. But, hey, at least I know the difference between avergüenzado and embarazado, eh? Por favor, I’m not that pocho. Pendejo a veces, pero pocho, no. Now, I feel like a native Spanish speaker would say differently, because I am not one. Yes, I grew up surrounded by English and Spanish on the border, but I’ve never been able to confidently say that I am incredibly fluent. Can I carry a conversation with my Spanish monolingual relatives? Sure. Am I able to respond to questions from my suegros? I’d like to think so. But deep down, I feel like they’re always thinking, “Pobrecito no sabe.” Because the further I get away from my Spanish, the closer I am, I think, to losing my Latino card, which I’m holding onto for dear life. But the truth is, I am a product of my third-gen, Mexican-American circumstances. So how do I exist between these two languages? I’m Xorge Olivares, y hoy preguntamos, how does language make me who I am? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, I just shared a very embarrassing story about my inability to know Spanish that well. So I wanna ask each of my guests if they have a similar moment, embarrassing moment, something that they’re like, oh, I never wanna relive again when it comes to either English or Spanish. So first excited to welcome to the program, Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss, who I must bow down to as one of the OG Latino podcasters has paved the way for me and many others in this field. She is the host of the Latinos Out Loud podcast. She is also an adjunct professor at CUNY, which is the City University of New York. Rachel, thank you for joining me for this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. Thank you for that really warm introduction. I’m really, really happy to be here. I have so many embarrassing language stories, but this one is still pretty fresh. And it all happened when I was maybe seven years old, which was a really long time ago. My mother’s Dominican. And I remember one time as, you know, mind you, I grew up half Jewish and half Catholic. So like just mixed race and mixed up. So we were at my Tia’s house and she told me in Spanish, She was like. Pide la mano de tu tía. So I took my tía’s hand. And I’m like, okay, what do you want me to do with it now? And she was like, no, no no no, es que cuando tu pide la mano le está preguntando por una bendición. So like pide a mano is asking for a blessing from your tía and I had no idea. I just thought she told me to grab my tia’s hand and you know, you do what your mom tells you to do no matter how weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I would have done the same thing. Even now, I wouldn’t have thought that that’s what she was telling you to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally, and then after like she told me in english what to do i was like oh bendición tia and then of course she was like dios te bendiga so ever since then i’m like oh that’s how you pide la bendición like the Dominican way got it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. Okay, okay. See, now I’m putting this in my back pocket so that way if anybody ever asks, I can say that this is what that particularly means. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Also excited to welcome to the program Angelo Colina, who is a stand-up comedian. I’d like to say I was telling the group here, my production team, that my algorithm serves me up drag queens, gay men, and Angelo Colina comedy sets. So that’s how deep in I am in watching Angelo’s comedy. But he is the creator of the Gente Funny comedy showcase, that is a Spanish language comedy showcase that is touring the country right now. Angelo, thank you so much for joining us. And do you have an embarrassing moment that you’d be willing to share with us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First of all, nice to meet you both. Second, I think the reason why I come up in your grade, it might be my high waist pants or just my mustache. It’s both of them, I get in the mix of those mixes you were mentioning. And for me, it was the other way around. So that’s funny because I didn’t grow up here. I’ve only been here for eight years or so, seven years. And so… It wasn’t that way for me. It was mostly, and when I was learning English, we were just learning. So you’re kind of allowed to make mistakes. And so I didn’t have that embarrassing moment. And then when I came here, I already spoke English. And so for me, it was the other way around because I used to be an English and a Spanish teacher. For me, how do I correct this person without making them feel embarrassed about themselves? But the things I heard were actually. The reason why I started doing stand-up like my first show was about those mistakes like we call them in when we do the English lessons we call it false friends which are words that look like familiar to you in a language but then they’re not and so like I had students telling me, teacher, I don’t import, like no me importa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for me, that was all the time, how do I correct them without making them feel embarrassed? So once a student told me that in Colombia, he said, teacher, I don’t import, I’m like, no, no. You export. And then a couple of students got the joke. And that’s how, that’s I started teaching the differences. So that’s funny, but I would have been your tia is what I’m trying to say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love, you know, what’s interesting is that my dad was a Spanish teacher, a high school Spanish teacher for many, many years. And so I feel like for me, even though my dad was a Spanish teacher, I don’t have the best command of Spanish, so I actually want to start the conversation there, Rachel, if we can talk about how you feel like you have a good or maybe not so good command of Spanish, considering how you grew up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well Jorge, we’re more connected than you think, because my father was also a Spanish teacher, okay? That’s how, like, my parents met. My mother didn’t speak English. My father was studying to be a Spanish Teacher that summer on Brighton Beach, and they hooked up. Pero, that will save that for another episode. But I feel like my command of Spanish should be so much better being the daughter of a woman born in the Dominican Republic where Spanish is her native language, and the daughter of a Spanish teacher in New York City public schools for close to 30 years. However, let me give myself some grace, okay?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before I took the dive into comedy, I was working a corporate gig. I was at like every Spanish language magazine. Remember magazines? Like the thing that you turn with your. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mhmm! People en Español!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes! So I worked at People en Español for a really long time. I worked a Latina, I worked in Vanidades, a bunch of different magazines. And my command of Spanish was so much better during those years. Like, I was able to read in Spanish, write in Spanish. And now, I find it so hard to, like, get words that I need. But I speak Spanglish fluently, AF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thank you for saying that because I always say that my first language is actually Spanglish because I don’t know when Spanish happened. I don’t know when English happened. It just tada! I knew both languages somehow when I was three or four, whatever age it was. So I’m curious for you, Angelo, one, about your command of let’s say English because you were born in Venezuela, correct? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So maybe let’s talk about command of English. And I am curious as we’ve brought up Spanglish, if you have any particular feelings about the usage of Spanglish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I do. And I was actually, I’m on the other side in the sense, it might be a generational thing because so, I lived in Venezuela for 20 years, then I lived in Colombia for two years, then I came here to the States. What I used to see was that there was some type of shame between, well, coming from the Latinos who grew up in Latin America to the ones who were born in the States and they didn’t speak Spanish fluently. And there was that type of shame in that entire conversation. Uh, everyone would make jokes about it. Like for me coming to shows in Spanish, that would happen a lot. And for me, I feel like when people say, oh, they’re not real Latinos because they were born here, whatever, I’m like. I would completely disagree, because I feel like people learn how to be Latinos when they aren’t here, because you’re aware of other nationalities. And I used to say when I was in Venezuela, cuando yo estaba en Venezuela yo no era Latino, yo era venezolano. Y cuando vivia en Colombia tampoco era Latino, era un malparido Venezolano, but you are still not that. That’s what I’m trying to say. You’re not Latino until you are here in the States and you’re aware of like pupusas. I had never had one. And so now you start connecting. With other nationalities, with other people like, that’s what it is. I don’t think there should be any type of shame of not being fluent because at the same time, the way you speak, it just has like, you just spoke like, Dominican Spanish like a while ago, you know that that’s as pure as it gets. And it’s the same the other way around, where people are, I see that a lot now at the shows, a lot of people bring their partners who are, let’s say they have a white husband and he’s learning Spanish and he says a word in Spanish and everyone’s like, yeah, or they’re laughing. It’s like we’re encouraging people to learn. And I’m like, yeah, that doesn’t happen the other way around. And it should, because when people are not speaking English fluently, it’s like hey, that’s a second language. So I think that’s what it is. I think we should give more credit to ourselves. I think we’re killing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we’re killin it but I want to talk about the places where we do feel comfortable speaking Spanish, speaking English, speaking Spanglish, whatever iteration of language we want. And Angelo, you were just talking about this Gente Funny Showcase. It is an all Spanish language show. So talk about that, your choice to use Spanish in a professional setting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Umm, I started doing standup comedy in Salt Lake City, Utah, that I would speak in English at the time and I would do the shows in English and I still do comedy, I do standup in English every once in a while, but I just realized it wouldn’t be, the things I find funny won’t translate. And it’s not about situations, because that’s not what it is. It’s not language. It’s culture. And so. I’m way more familiar with like Latino culture and I’m like in love with it with all of the different nationalities and I try to learn a lot. It’s really not funny if I go to, I don’t know, the Upper West Side and I am doing a show in English and I make an impression of the Argentinian accent. It doesn’t really translate because we’re not aware of it. Whereas with the, if I do it in Spanish about the Argentinean or the Dominican or I speak about our differences. It automatically translates because we share a lot more of the references. But I do think in general, the audiences, Latino audiences are way funnier than any other audience. Like the Dominicans listening to you they be like “Que tu dices mi loco” and it’s like, they’re just funnier!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel, you are somebody who has had a microphone and I love that you could see the bedazzled microphone. If you’re watching us on YouTube, there’s a beautifully pink bedazzled, the microphone in front of Rachel. But we are in a beautiful position that we do have microphones in front of us. So how do you make the choice on what language comes out when you do record in front of that pink bedazzled microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I think in English and I translate to Spanish, but sometimes the slang is so much easier in Español. ¿Tu me entiendes loco? You know? Like right then and there, like for emphasis, the Dominicanisms work really well for me. You know. Tu estas pasado, You know like things like se me sale de la boca\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ya tu sabes lo que lo es loco, KLK! Yeah, so I tend to like to think in English. And let me tell you, I’m the most under pressure in front of family. You know, I feel like I have to say the right vocabulary word. I’m terrible at conjugating verbs and like tenses in Spanish. It’s so hard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hate that, it’s really with my family, like the people who shouldn’t judge you, even though they do judge you and bully you and do all the things like before anybody else does. Like, I didn’t think that I would feel so vulnerable around them speaking Spanish, but that’s exactly who I hate speaking Spanish with because of the like, oh, poor guy. We didn’t teach him right. Oh, this is a failure on us because he doesn’t know the language of his grandmother or grandfather or whatever, antepasado is the one who spoke Spanish the most. I’m curious, Rachel, if you’ve noticed that, especially growing up in New York, there’s so many different Latinos that you can experience in New york. Just seeing how distinct your accent was or how special it was in comparison to other Latinos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I get Brooklyn right away. People somehow know that I’m from freaking Brooklyn. I’m like, forget about it. How? I don’t understand. What are you talking about? Yeah, like, hey, can I get some water? And they’re like, you’re from Brooklyn, aren’t you? Yeah. I, I really try my hardest to represent, you know, for the cultura, as you were saying earlier. And it’s beyond just sounding Dominican or Rican or… You know, whatever it is, what comes out of my mouth, I think, is is New York. But I don’t really identify that much with like sounding Dominican. Like I can sound Dominican sometimes true talk. But like I also people tell me like, oh, you must be Puerto Rican. I’m like, no, not at all. You know, or sometimes I get Sicilian. I don’ even get Latino. They’re like, Oh, you’re some kind of Mediterranean or something. Right. No, far from it, like I’m just like a mixed-bred girl with a little bit of everything, un sancocho, if you will. But I will say, when I start like singing my dembow, my toquicha, you mentioned Rochy, Yo me siento como una dominicana pura, loco!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, en español que se te sale, en inglés no, en ingles you could be, you’re very New York en inglés. Pero en español, sancocho. Like, as soon as you do it, una sola palabra dijiste, san-cocho, and I’m like Dominican. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For reaal? I don’t even hear it! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that though! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you’re very…I cannot tell you how Dominican you are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seriously, you guys? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your family is here from Santo Amigo or El Cibao, one of the two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I love that! I don’t hear that myself. You know, you never hear what you sound like, right? But like, I don’t think I sound Dominican. I am so proud. Let me get my guira. Hold on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hahaha! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you! [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">oh, hey!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emotional support guira, claro.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a quick little break. But when we come back, more hyphenación. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share this quick story of when I was 22 years old and I had first moved to New York, my first broadcasting on air job. I was really excited because I was gonna be able to do something that my parents could listen to. And I would be able to say, you know, Jorge Olivares every time I signed off on these broadcasts. But very quickly, I had to have a conversation with my older white supervisor who said I needed to anglicize my name. That if I was going to do anything on air, I had to say Jorge Olivares, which even now coming out of my mouth sounds really weird. And this was a shock to me because I’ve grown up on the Texas-Mexico border. Everybody knows how to say my name. I was surrounded by a bunch of Latinos growing up, so it never felt weird for me to say it how I was taught it. So I… Since then, since I was 22, I have had to be very intentional and deliberate with how I say my name because I need folks to know that I’m from the border, I’m Mexicano. I’m Tejano. I’ve got all this stuff behind me, and so definitely my relationship to my name and to language has shifted over the years. So I want to ask you, Rachel, if you’ve had a similar situation, where your relationship with either language has changed a bit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you know, you actually, like, struck a chord with the name, because I feel less Latina when I say my actual government name without my stage name baked in, where it’s like, Hi, I’m Rachel Strauss. You know, like I don’t know how many I can’t tell you how many job interviews I’ve been on where I show up, I’m like, “Hi, I am Rachel Straus,” and they look at me like, no, you can’t be. You don’t look like a Strauss. Wait, what are you exactly? You know with their eyes I don’t think that’s allowed to be said by like HR and stuff. But like, um, you know, I get that feeling like, Oh, you weren’t expecting a mixed race girl who’s half Latina and whose father’s Jewish. I get it. Um, let me tell you a little bit about me. So then when I do say, “Oh I’m Rachel, la loca Strauss” that pretty much encapsulates who I am to the T. Um, I am this mixed bred that loves both of her cultures. That fully embraces being Dominican and like a descendant of Eastern European Jew, you know, Russian and a whole bunch of other stuff mixed in with the borscht. And like, it’s the name for me. I never really gave it thought until you brought up how you say your name. And I do say La Loca with intent. Because I could easily say Rachel La Loca Strauss, you know? But then I don’t sound like me, okay? It’s Rachel La Loca Strauss. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, cause the thing is it is, it is what feels unnatural because I’ve never in my life said, my name is Jorge. You’ve never, in your life, have not said La Loca in the accent that you have. Right? Uh, so Angelo, did you like just thinking about accents, names, how you present yourself to the world, have you had to contend with that and, and like deal with some of the, the inner workings of how you feel about how you express yourself? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the beginning of my immigrant career in the US, I had to. Like as soon as I was in Salt Lake City, Utah, yes, I have to pronounce, I would say Angelo. But if I’m here in New York, and I do come listen, like a lot of times, it’s like, it’s my show, I’m doing my show in Spanish, it says en español, it’s just everything. I’m gonna just speak the way I speak because that’s the actual thing people are paying for. They want to see that part of themselves even, not even mine. And so they also introduce themselves pronouncing their name, how they normally wouldn’t do it. That I do see. I know they would normally say, My name is Maria, but when they see me, they go like, ah, mi nombre es Maria, mucho gusto. Like that’s, it’s like, okay, I’m free. I won’t be judged here. And so my focus, but of course, I’m lucky enough to say that because I also live in New York City where everyone’s aware of that and everyone’s like actually curious. I feel like people want to learn. And so when I have the chance to do this outside, in other cities, yes, of course, sometimes I try to…I try to sound like I have been here for longer if I’m, you know, in other places, because you feel it. I’ve been to Kansas City, you know, I’ve been to Louisville, Kentucky, I’ve been to, and it’s, it’s not as welcoming, you know. I don’t know if I would get away saying Angelo El Loco Colina. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Loca, that was also Dominican, the way you said, you said La Loca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">percussive sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel so Dominican right now! Oh my god!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You should!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is what I love because I’m a Mexican American, Dominican American, somebody from Venezuela who has that very distinct, like we are all from our own distinct backgrounds and yet look at how much we’re having fun with, with language, with culture, with identity. And I feel like the thing that has also helped is I’ve just like me vale madre now when I speak Spanish sometimes, like I’ve had to make certain agreements with myself about like, it’s okay to be embarrassed. It’s okay to kind of walk around with your tail between your legs, just live. So I wonder Angelo, if you’ve had these moments where you had to throw all of that out the window, any preconceived feelings, any hangups? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of it was just the people around me. It’s a privilege of living here in New York City, where only the attempt of doing something with enough passion is gonna be applauded. Like people are gonna cheer you up and they’re gonna be supportive. And so I think New York did it for me. Like just people here were like, dale cabrón, dale, métate, okay, dale. Laigala, dice la gente del cibao in Dominican Republic they say laigala. I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing 100% if it wasn’t because of the community. Maybe we’re not completely unified. And nobody wants that from the others, because it would be, we would be unstoppable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna end by asking, especially as the host of a show called Hyphenacion, which we made up and it’s fun. Rachel, is there a word or a phrase that you love in Spanish that just doesn’t hit in English? That nobody, when you’re trying to do the literal translation, como que no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally and it’s so Dominican and I love to motivate others so I’m always like \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila. Ponte la pila, loco! Ponte la pila. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which I guess a literal translation of that was what to put yourself on a battery? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Put on your batteries. Put in your batteries. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah,That’s a we say it a lot too. You know what’s very Dominican? I love, my Dominican friends say it all the time. They would say en Dominicana el único país que dice and then it’s something everyone Like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ponte la pila.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We say it, Colombians say it. Everyone knows it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like we’re like just trying to like own it \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love it. My friend explained me the reason but that’s a longer story. For me it’s uh it’s one that it’s used in Venezuela, Cuba, Dominicana Puerto Rico, Colombia tambien, we say alot, Ya tú sabes. But Dominicans have one now that is “Tu Supiste”, but without the S, Tu supi’te. They say, if you say, now I’m giving you this audience, use it. If a Dominican ever tells you you have to say it, if you said Tu supiste, they’ll be blown away. Because Tu Supiste implies you’ve been knowing for longer. So that’s my favorite one at the moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to ‘tu ta pasa’o’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will add mine. Mine is, uh, there’s a phrase it’s just like nada que ver. And it translates to like nothing to see, but it’s really not that it’s like this, this isn’t so little importance. It’s so dumb. That like…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>‘\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Na que ver. You say na sometimes without the d. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have had such a fun time with my, they’re all my new friends. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation about the beauty of language, the power of language. How it unites, how it distinguishes us, how, it’s just a beautiful way of identifying yourself. So thank you both for what you do. And thank you so much for, for being a part of this really fruitful, fantastic conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel ‘La Loca’ Strauss: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, this has been so fun. Congrats to you both. Let’s get it. We are hot right now. I’m here to support. La puerta ya está abierta. So come on and have some sancocho, loco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angelo Colina: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ya tu sabes, Rachel mi loca. Un abrazo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to say to our listeners, thank you for joining us on this first season of Hyphenación– if you like what we’ve been creating, please remember to rate and review us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and comment on our YouTube videos. It all helps us out, and helps other people find us. And if you have an idea of a topic you’d like us to cover in the future, send it over to hyp@kqed.org. For more information about our guests you can go to the show notes where you’ll find tickets to see Angelo performing in a city near you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">how you can listen to Rachel on Latinos Out Loud. But until next time, mi gente– take care! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "whats-the-us-mexico-border-really-like",
"title": "What’s Life Really Like on the US-Mexico Border?",
"publishDate": 1748349025,
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"headTitle": "What’s Life Really Like on the US-Mexico Border? | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The US-Mexico border has been a central issue in recent decades of American politics. The southern borderlands are often depicted in media and by politicians as a dangerous ground zero for crime and violence. But is this an accurate image of the place thousands of Americans call home? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gathers with two other fronterizas, artist natalia ventura and filmmaker Robie Flores, who were born and bred along the border. Together they ask, “Is the border we see on TV real life?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5546019730&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/J9TwPY_bVwo\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">natalia ventura (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nataliaventura.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artwork\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/nataliaxventura/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.friendshippark.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friendship Park\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robie Flores (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theinbetween-film.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ambiente Films\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/the-in-between/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watch ‘The In Between’ on PBS\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/robieflores/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it turns out that JD Vance and I have something in common. We both paid a visit to my hometown on the Texas-Mexico border earlier this year. Surprise! Now the VP was in Eagle Pass doing the kind of political parade that my neighbors and I had seen for years. Because regardless of party affiliation, elected officials almost always do this kind of thing when it comes to these border stops. First, they take a tour of the area, which mostly centers on the incomplete border fence. Then they make some passionate remarks chock full of buzzwords tied to border security and immigration, cause you never know if the base is listening. And at some point there’s a photo op with border patrol and local law enforcement because y’all, these DC folks didn’t wear their good jeans and belt buckles for nothing! Now, if you don’t believe me, just comb through the hours of cable news footage that exists. Fox News, MSNBC, CNN– all of these news outlets have practically set up shop in Eagle Pass these past couple of years as my hometown has become more politicized. And honestly, it feels like they’re playing out this National Geographic wildlife documentary fantasy. Migrant caravans, undocumented immigrants, drug and human trafficking. Okay, given that we are talking about an international border, some of that is true. But I can only speak to what I know and what I see. And most of that is just mostly going to Kohl’s department store with my mother or grabbing a mango nada with my sister at our local paleteria. Not exactly a ratings draw, but which of these is a more accurate representation of the border?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking, is the border from TV, real life? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, talking about the border, I’m getting very homesick and the best way for me to address homesickness is to listen to music. So I’m going to ask each of my guests what song reminds them of the border. Because for me, it is a song by Tejano artist, Gary Hobbs, and it’s called Las Miradas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Las Miradas by Gary Hobbs plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is fantastic. But excited to first welcome to the program, natalia ventura, who is a community organizer and an artist out of San Diego, California. Who uses her art as a tool for social change. So, natalia, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna ask you about what song reminds you of home or the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for having me. My song is not a traditional borderlands song, but I think this kind of speaks to, you know, the many cultures that exist here. My mom is from Tijuana, but she was like an 80s New Wave fanatic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love it!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she very much embraced the music on the other side and loved New Wave. And so a song that really reminds me of home is Our House by Madness, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our House by Madness plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because I grew up on a cul-de-sac and just the lyrics just really remind me of her. She always played that one growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing that. Also excited to welcome to the show Robie Flores, who is a filmmaker. Her latest film called “The In-Between” is now available for you to watch and I highly recommend it, especially because it showcases my hometown of Eagle Pass because Robie is a classmate of mine and we’ve known each other for quite some time. So excited to have her and excited to see her and to know what her answer is to the song that reminds her of the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, my God, I’m so excited to say this because I think it’s going to take us all back to like morning pep rallies and cake walks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, is it Fito Olivares, La Vibora…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cobra! Yeah, it’s called a Cobra and it starts with It’s called La Coba and it starts with…da-da-da, if it resembles a rattlesnake\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cora by Fito Olivares plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s so classic EP that’s like, it always was just kind of embarrassing to me because I felt so small town but then it’s just so good and every time you hear it we’re just like get up and dance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes me happy being around other border people. I feel like we speak a special language and I’m happy for us to share that language with everybody right now, especially because the border is such an expansive place. We are talking about two specific areas right now. Eagle Pass, South Texas and San Diego, but it spans miles upon miles. So I wanna start with you, natalia, about what your specific border experience was like, has been like, just so folks can get a sense as to how you’re approaching today’s topic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, so I think something that people who aren’t from the border don’t realize is that even within this border identity, there’s so many layers of privilege and experiences and intersections. I feel I grew up very privileged in my border crossing experience. I was born on this side as a U.S. citizen and I crossed with a global entry pass. I grew up visiting my grandparents every weekend, just being able to cross the border to enjoy like food and culture and life on the weekends over there. And then I would, you know, do my schooling during the week on this side and grew up on this side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm, I want to ask you, Robie, because natalia hits it at a point that a lot of us understand, which is sometimes families on the other side, there’s a lot of cultural activities that happen on the other side that we want to show ourselves, especially if we don’t have those on the American side of things. So what was your border experience like growing up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, similar to natalia, that it was, you know, it was like very lucky to be born on the American side, but it’s just, it’s such a, like on the border, it’s, just there’s resources that everybody on both sides that can cross back and forth use and do it. You know, people on either side go to school or work or, you, know, the doctor or like after school activities, every day. Ao like for me it was like I went to school in Eagle Pass but every day after school I went into dance class and piano class like my mom would pick me up and I change in the car and like put my medias on and like as we’re going over the bridge and um and it felt like I was just kind of like getting into this like different identity of like, now I’m a la bailarina and stuff. And so I’d like go to dance class every day after school and then like to my abuela’s house. And I’d wait for my parents to be done with their errands then we’d like take the bridge back home. And that was like every day. And then on the weekends, we go to, you know, my abuela’s house and then we do the carne asadas. You know, that was my border life experience. But with everybody that I was around, it was pretty typical. And so. I assumed that if you lived on the border you could just do that. And it really wasn’t until I started this movie that I was like, oh, you need a visa if you’re on the other side. Like, I didn’t understand that. I didn’t know that because the border that you and I had when we were kids, it was so fluid. And so that’s what I thought that it’s just on the border. This is just how it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was trying to explain to folks here, I’d say, you know, some folks who lived across the the river in Piedras Negras, Coahuila, that they would come to high school and they say, Well, how would they do that? I don’t know, they would just come to school. And we knew that, you knew that they were the kids that lived in Piedras. And I still to this day can’t really tell you why that is. But I love that it was indicative of the porous nature. Like we were one very large community, the Piedra Negras-Eagle Pass community. natalia, would you say that the San Diego-Tijuana community feels like that or maybe a little different in your experience? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It sounds like Eagle Pass is a little bit of a smaller town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: It is.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here, San Ysidro is the busiest border crossing in the world. So it’s not as easy to just cross quickly. It takes time, you gotta kind of plan around it. But we still had such a cross-border community. I also had the kids in high school who crossed every day to go to school. My mom was one of those. She crossed every day to go school her whole life. So it’s very much a part of our lives as well, even though it’s a bit of a bigger city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’d like to also say that like kids in Eagle Pass for us also crossed to go to school on the Mexican side like it wasn’t just like Mexicans coming you know the people on the Mexican site coming for everything in the U.S. Like everybody on the Eagle Pass side was going to Piedras for also you know, the doctor, for school. So like, it’s just it’s super fluid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I appreciate you making the distinction that it’s not just one side always coming to the other, that it goes both ways. Because growing up, even though we didn’t necessarily have immediate family relatives that lived in Piedras, that’s where I would go to the dentist.Um, but one thing I have not had a chance to do on the border and it’s not part of my border experience just yet is to do work that showcases the border. And each of you are doing such great work that highlights the fronteriza experience. So I want to start with you, natalia about, uh your navigation of art on the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah so for me it really started like once I left the Borderlands for college. I went up to Orange County for my undergrad and I didn’t realize how much the border was a part of my life until I left. Like even just saying I was Latina or Mexican wasn’t enough like I had to talk about my border experience in order to really speak to my Latinidad. Um, and so once I graduated. I came back home with the intention of like really rooting myself even deeper in the borderlands and to do art that was focused on uplifting my community. And so I started doing a lot of workright where the border wall meets the Pacific Ocean. It’s like the westernmost point of the border and it’s also home to a place called Friendship Park where families traditionally are able– are supposed to be able to come together and meet each other, families and friends who aren’t able to cross the border because of their citizenship status. And this is a place that has been under attack over the last few decades because of our government’s opinions and stances on border crossers and migration. And so when I started working with them, the construction of 30-foot walls was beginning at the park under the Biden administration, but it was a project started by the Trump administration. And I did a lot of organizing work with them bringing art to their activism work and using art as like a tactic of non-violence to fight against militarization at the Park. Cause this is supposed to be a place that symbolizes cross-border unity and friendship. And it was very much not that anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b> Some of the interventions that I’ve done with others include hanging banners on the border wall. “Parque si, muro no” is one of our slogans that we use to say we want to park here, not a wall. And I climbed up on the border wall to hang that. And then there’s also a planter that holds white sage, which is a native plant here in Southern California and Northern Baja. And we hung it on top of the border fence to kind of signify the power of this, you know, native plant, native species, and how it overcomes borders. And there’s two sculptural hands that are coming from on top of those planters touching each other to kind symbolize the human connection that we hope will win over these borders. It’s really about reconnecting to our humanity, reconnecting the land, so that’s kind of what my practice is focused on right now. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm, I wanna pull this word that natalia just used, reconnecting, because it feels like that was at the focus, it was a focus point for you in this film, “The In-Between”, Robie, which I wanna share a trailer for listeners…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[ Trailer ] I must have crossed this bridge a million times, but the first time I remember was when my brothers, the twins, Mars and Alex were born. But Mars is gone now, and all I’m left with is his camera. Now that I’m back here, can I find my memories of us? Can I find you? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Robie, tell us about “The In-Between” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ay güey, Well, now you’re making me cry. This is just so surreal because, um, uh, yeah, I, I wanted to go back and make this movie in 2016. I was, I was in New York working at Bloomberg at the time. Um, and I was uh, you know, in the newsroom, I was working next to the news editors while I was like editing on another show and it was just these constant sound bites about the border and how dangerous it is and how we need walls and all these things, and it just sounded so foreign to me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was just like, what? It’s really chill. I mean, at least the one that I know. Like it’s like. It’s really not like they were making it sound like an action movie. And I was like, “No, let me let me show you like, I’ll invite you like come with me and I’ll show you the cool parts.” You know, and that’s, that’s what the movie was, I just wanted to invite people home and show that. But at the core of it, I wanted it to be, you know, a visit to the border for everybody that hasn’t had the privilege of getting to experience it yet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like if you look up border on IMDB and all the movies that come out with border are always like the same stories. And I looked it up. They all are like. You know, like trauma and, you know, violence and carteles and like, you know, whatever, all the same shit. And like, we, we know that, but for us that are from the border, like we know. That border frontera, I means like carne asada means cumbia means like, you know. Like the identity crisis of not being ni de aquí, ni de alla. Yeah, it’s just like, that’s the real border crisis in my mind, you know? And it’s like, and no one’s talking about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like I think I didn’t realize as I was a child because there were other people around me who felt this too, but there also weren’t of just like leaving the walls of your house where you speak Spanglish to like going to school where It was discouraged to speak any Spanish. Learning from a really young age to cross borders, even when you’re not physically crossing the border or when you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>being from like two different worlds and not really seeing that in the media around you. I think maybe Hannah Montana was like the closest like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, duality like…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she said the best of both worlds, which we are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But this is something that I’ve been like realizing, slowly realizing and is what our mission is with this movie and like the work that we do is that there isn’t like, if you think about like, for example, New York and New Yorkers and stuff, like there’s a culture and everybody knows it. Everybody around the world knows it, like we know the accents, like we the fucking baseball hats, Like, we know, like… You know, we know all the nuances of it. And like, yet when someone makes like a movie or writes a book about New York or like a song, no one’s like, but what about the crime? Like, why isn’t, you know, like, but isn’t New York dangerous? You know what, like we do that about the border all the time!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm. We’re going to take a short little break, but we’ll be back with some more Hyphenación after this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I still get a chance to go home, maybe two to three\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">times a year and a couple of years ago, I went home for Thanksgiving and we celebrated at my primo’s ranch. He owns quite a bit of land, literally about maybe a few yards away from the Rio Grande. So we were pretty much at what you would call ground zero. And while we were there, my primo wife said, Hey, would you like a tour? Just since you haven’t seen it, we said, sure. Do you know, I saw some of the things that have been shown on TV. So saw the barbed wire, saw the dozens of national guardsmen, saw the mounds of clothing and the artifacts that have been left behind by folks making their migratory journey here into the United States. And even though I was a little bit taken aback, like, oh my God, I I wasn’t expecting to see all of this. My prima, asi como si nada, was just like saying hi to all the National Guardsmen that she sees every day and passing by all of these things that have now become, part of her day-to-day. So it does get into this notion of the normalization of what we do see on the border. And so I’m curious for you, natalia, since you do live still on the Border, what has become normalized for you of what you see? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, as you just said, it’s very normal to see barbed wire, to see construction projects constantly at the border, um, border patrollers, um, multiple like law enforcement agencies. Um, it’s normal to see people making their journeys. And all of it is very much a part of our culture here. At this point we’ve accepted the border as such a permanent strong thing as a society when in reality it’s so, it’s been a blip in our human history and we need to remember that and we need to move towards that again. Like, for example, the border walls at Friendship Park in the 70s, when the park got inaugurated by the first lady, Pat Nixon, it was just a string of barbed wire and she had her Secret Service cut it so she could greet the people on the Tijuana side. And she said, “I hope there won’t be a fence too long here.” And over the decades, it’s become a 30 foot galvanized steel double wall. Most people are just used to seeing it at this point, which is sad because it shouldn’t be that way. It’s a place where so much of the world just kind of comes together because migrants who come here are coming from all over the world, not just Latin America. And so we have a real opportunity to have kinship with people from all over the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus in on this word kinship, can you tell me about the beauty of working at friendship Park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, I have learned so many beautiful examples of how to care radically for each other, even when we are not family, even if we’ve only known each other for a split second. The way that people who live here really care for the people on their migratory journeys is so inspiring to me and it’s something that I’ve tried to like embody more and more. When I’m driving around near the border and I see someone walking on the street, I know they’re probably on their journey and I will stop and offer them water or food. You know, it’s just something that we need to ingrain more in if you are living near the border because this is a part of that life and really practicing like treating somebody like they are your kin. I think is like the answer to so much injustice and problems around us. And it’s how we like can survive these conditions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also in Eagle Pass have a connection to this idea of friendship because there is an international friendship parade and day that happens in Eagle Pass where we do meet up with folks in Piedras and there’s this huge celebration and Robie I love that the in-between starts and ends with imagery that is at least to me because I know it happens for a friendship day and also for 4th of July but tell me about your reasoning for showcasing this particular moment and day. That we celebrate on the border. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it just like it was so funny it was the first thing I shot when I went home. It was so funny because everybody like back in New York and like this like the center of news is like freaking out about everything that’s going out on the border and like and so I’m like so like living in that for so long that I go home and I am being like, oh my God, how is everybody going to be like. I came back and they were still doing it, you know, and it’s like and they still do it now with all this shit going on. You know, like they’re still doing all the binational celebrations. Like to see the wide shot of this is like, this is what we don’t get to see, Everybody’s hanging out here under like the same beautiful sky. And like, and our river is so narrow that you can literally say hi to each other and hang out and stuff and and and it’s really beautiful. It’s just like, you know, this is our culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to just quickly say, I do, every time I bring someone home for a visit\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I always take them during friendship week because of the Noches Mexicanas festival that you’re talking about, which interestingly enough, it’s called Noches Mexicanas on the American side.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to further paint this picture that Robie was showing. It all takes place in a park that is beyond the border fence. So it is in this, like, weird purgatory section where it’s in between the border fence and the Rio Grande, but it has always been there. So it’s everybody with their puestecitos selling the funnel cakes, their espiropapas, the raspas, like the I was frescas. It all happens right there and it is such a beautiful reflection of community and just everything that We have. Again, this culture that we have to offer on the border, which I do want to end with this one question to each of you, which is, what is your favorite part about being from the border? I’ll say that for me, it is every time I go home, every time, I go to the border. I am allowed to remember the core of who I am and like I feel like I’ll never be able to lose that joy and pride of border identity. I want to start with you, natalia. What is your favorite part?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, very similar. Just being able to go to Tijuana, get the world’s best tacos, eat some nieves, and just like really tap into those childhood memories, you know, just being a kid, visiting my family, enjoying life. There’s so much beauty and color in Tijuana and it’s hustling and bustling and I love it so much. And it’s such a privilege to be able to just go enjoy that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. What about your Robie?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love just like the remix that like we create, like we’re like the hybridity, the hyphenación, you know, like I like for us, like, I think that we’re, like so beautifully defined. When I was like in New York, all my Mexican friends that were there from Mexico City were like, nachos aren’t a Mexican food. And then, I was always like constantly being shamed for not being Mexican enough. But then I’m like, no, they’re fucking Frontera food and you’re welcome because they’re amazing and everybody has them. And this is what happens at the border. That’s one example of all these amazing things that happen at the border when these two beautiful cultures collide and influence each other. And from there, we have margaritas and Caesar salad and burritos and so many more things. And that’s the beauty of the fluidity and that I’m so proud of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I feel like the the greatest takeaway is that there’s four great exports from the border each of us and the nacho. Well I want to think each of you for for joining me for this wonderful conversation about home Because at the center of it it really is about home for for all three of us and for a lot of people who are. So thank you both for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. Thank you for having us, Jorge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to let folks know if you want to look at each of their works, just go to our show notes, you will have links to natalia’s work to how you can find and watch the in between Robie’s film and how you can support them in the efforts that they do. And if you are a border person, or if you have a question for us to address on hyphenation, all you have to do is email us at hyp@kqed.org. But until next time, Take care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "What’s Life Really Like on the US-Mexico Border? | KQED",
"description": "The US-Mexico borderlands are often depicted in media and by politicians as a dangerous ground zero for crime and violence. But is this an accurate image of the place thousands of Americans call home? This week on Hyphenación, Host Xorje Olivares gathers with two other fronterizas, artist Natalia Ventura and filmmaker Robie Flores, who were all born and bred along the border. Together they ask, “Is the border we see on TV, real life?”",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The US-Mexico border has been a central issue in recent decades of American politics. The southern borderlands are often depicted in media and by politicians as a dangerous ground zero for crime and violence. But is this an accurate image of the place thousands of Americans call home? This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gathers with two other fronterizas, artist natalia ventura and filmmaker Robie Flores, who were born and bred along the border. Together they ask, “Is the border we see on TV real life?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5546019730&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/J9TwPY_bVwo'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/J9TwPY_bVwo'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">natalia ventura (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nataliaventura.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artwork\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/nataliaxventura/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.friendshippark.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friendship Park\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robie Flores (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theinbetween-film.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ambiente Films\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/the-in-between/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watch ‘The In Between’ on PBS\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/robieflores/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it turns out that JD Vance and I have something in common. We both paid a visit to my hometown on the Texas-Mexico border earlier this year. Surprise! Now the VP was in Eagle Pass doing the kind of political parade that my neighbors and I had seen for years. Because regardless of party affiliation, elected officials almost always do this kind of thing when it comes to these border stops. First, they take a tour of the area, which mostly centers on the incomplete border fence. Then they make some passionate remarks chock full of buzzwords tied to border security and immigration, cause you never know if the base is listening. And at some point there’s a photo op with border patrol and local law enforcement because y’all, these DC folks didn’t wear their good jeans and belt buckles for nothing! Now, if you don’t believe me, just comb through the hours of cable news footage that exists. Fox News, MSNBC, CNN– all of these news outlets have practically set up shop in Eagle Pass these past couple of years as my hometown has become more politicized. And honestly, it feels like they’re playing out this National Geographic wildlife documentary fantasy. Migrant caravans, undocumented immigrants, drug and human trafficking. Okay, given that we are talking about an international border, some of that is true. But I can only speak to what I know and what I see. And most of that is just mostly going to Kohl’s department store with my mother or grabbing a mango nada with my sister at our local paleteria. Not exactly a ratings draw, but which of these is a more accurate representation of the border?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking, is the border from TV, real life? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, talking about the border, I’m getting very homesick and the best way for me to address homesickness is to listen to music. So I’m going to ask each of my guests what song reminds them of the border. Because for me, it is a song by Tejano artist, Gary Hobbs, and it’s called Las Miradas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Las Miradas by Gary Hobbs plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is fantastic. But excited to first welcome to the program, natalia ventura, who is a community organizer and an artist out of San Diego, California. Who uses her art as a tool for social change. So, natalia, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna ask you about what song reminds you of home or the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks so much for having me. My song is not a traditional borderlands song, but I think this kind of speaks to, you know, the many cultures that exist here. My mom is from Tijuana, but she was like an 80s New Wave fanatic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love it!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she very much embraced the music on the other side and loved New Wave. And so a song that really reminds me of home is Our House by Madness, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our House by Madness plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because I grew up on a cul-de-sac and just the lyrics just really remind me of her. She always played that one growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing that. Also excited to welcome to the show Robie Flores, who is a filmmaker. Her latest film called “The In-Between” is now available for you to watch and I highly recommend it, especially because it showcases my hometown of Eagle Pass because Robie is a classmate of mine and we’ve known each other for quite some time. So excited to have her and excited to see her and to know what her answer is to the song that reminds her of the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, my God, I’m so excited to say this because I think it’s going to take us all back to like morning pep rallies and cake walks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think, is it Fito Olivares, La Vibora…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cobra! Yeah, it’s called a Cobra and it starts with It’s called La Coba and it starts with…da-da-da, if it resembles a rattlesnake\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">La Cora by Fito Olivares plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s so classic EP that’s like, it always was just kind of embarrassing to me because I felt so small town but then it’s just so good and every time you hear it we’re just like get up and dance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes me happy being around other border people. I feel like we speak a special language and I’m happy for us to share that language with everybody right now, especially because the border is such an expansive place. We are talking about two specific areas right now. Eagle Pass, South Texas and San Diego, but it spans miles upon miles. So I wanna start with you, natalia, about what your specific border experience was like, has been like, just so folks can get a sense as to how you’re approaching today’s topic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, so I think something that people who aren’t from the border don’t realize is that even within this border identity, there’s so many layers of privilege and experiences and intersections. I feel I grew up very privileged in my border crossing experience. I was born on this side as a U.S. citizen and I crossed with a global entry pass. I grew up visiting my grandparents every weekend, just being able to cross the border to enjoy like food and culture and life on the weekends over there. And then I would, you know, do my schooling during the week on this side and grew up on this side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm, I want to ask you, Robie, because natalia hits it at a point that a lot of us understand, which is sometimes families on the other side, there’s a lot of cultural activities that happen on the other side that we want to show ourselves, especially if we don’t have those on the American side of things. So what was your border experience like growing up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, similar to natalia, that it was, you know, it was like very lucky to be born on the American side, but it’s just, it’s such a, like on the border, it’s, just there’s resources that everybody on both sides that can cross back and forth use and do it. You know, people on either side go to school or work or, you, know, the doctor or like after school activities, every day. Ao like for me it was like I went to school in Eagle Pass but every day after school I went into dance class and piano class like my mom would pick me up and I change in the car and like put my medias on and like as we’re going over the bridge and um and it felt like I was just kind of like getting into this like different identity of like, now I’m a la bailarina and stuff. And so I’d like go to dance class every day after school and then like to my abuela’s house. And I’d wait for my parents to be done with their errands then we’d like take the bridge back home. And that was like every day. And then on the weekends, we go to, you know, my abuela’s house and then we do the carne asadas. You know, that was my border life experience. But with everybody that I was around, it was pretty typical. And so. I assumed that if you lived on the border you could just do that. And it really wasn’t until I started this movie that I was like, oh, you need a visa if you’re on the other side. Like, I didn’t understand that. I didn’t know that because the border that you and I had when we were kids, it was so fluid. And so that’s what I thought that it’s just on the border. This is just how it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was, I was trying to explain to folks here, I’d say, you know, some folks who lived across the the river in Piedras Negras, Coahuila, that they would come to high school and they say, Well, how would they do that? I don’t know, they would just come to school. And we knew that, you knew that they were the kids that lived in Piedras. And I still to this day can’t really tell you why that is. But I love that it was indicative of the porous nature. Like we were one very large community, the Piedra Negras-Eagle Pass community. natalia, would you say that the San Diego-Tijuana community feels like that or maybe a little different in your experience? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It sounds like Eagle Pass is a little bit of a smaller town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: It is.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here, San Ysidro is the busiest border crossing in the world. So it’s not as easy to just cross quickly. It takes time, you gotta kind of plan around it. But we still had such a cross-border community. I also had the kids in high school who crossed every day to go to school. My mom was one of those. She crossed every day to go school her whole life. So it’s very much a part of our lives as well, even though it’s a bit of a bigger city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’d like to also say that like kids in Eagle Pass for us also crossed to go to school on the Mexican side like it wasn’t just like Mexicans coming you know the people on the Mexican site coming for everything in the U.S. Like everybody on the Eagle Pass side was going to Piedras for also you know, the doctor, for school. So like, it’s just it’s super fluid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I appreciate you making the distinction that it’s not just one side always coming to the other, that it goes both ways. Because growing up, even though we didn’t necessarily have immediate family relatives that lived in Piedras, that’s where I would go to the dentist.Um, but one thing I have not had a chance to do on the border and it’s not part of my border experience just yet is to do work that showcases the border. And each of you are doing such great work that highlights the fronteriza experience. So I want to start with you, natalia about, uh your navigation of art on the border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah so for me it really started like once I left the Borderlands for college. I went up to Orange County for my undergrad and I didn’t realize how much the border was a part of my life until I left. Like even just saying I was Latina or Mexican wasn’t enough like I had to talk about my border experience in order to really speak to my Latinidad. Um, and so once I graduated. I came back home with the intention of like really rooting myself even deeper in the borderlands and to do art that was focused on uplifting my community. And so I started doing a lot of workright where the border wall meets the Pacific Ocean. It’s like the westernmost point of the border and it’s also home to a place called Friendship Park where families traditionally are able– are supposed to be able to come together and meet each other, families and friends who aren’t able to cross the border because of their citizenship status. And this is a place that has been under attack over the last few decades because of our government’s opinions and stances on border crossers and migration. And so when I started working with them, the construction of 30-foot walls was beginning at the park under the Biden administration, but it was a project started by the Trump administration. And I did a lot of organizing work with them bringing art to their activism work and using art as like a tactic of non-violence to fight against militarization at the Park. Cause this is supposed to be a place that symbolizes cross-border unity and friendship. And it was very much not that anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mmhmm\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b> Some of the interventions that I’ve done with others include hanging banners on the border wall. “Parque si, muro no” is one of our slogans that we use to say we want to park here, not a wall. And I climbed up on the border wall to hang that. And then there’s also a planter that holds white sage, which is a native plant here in Southern California and Northern Baja. And we hung it on top of the border fence to kind of signify the power of this, you know, native plant, native species, and how it overcomes borders. And there’s two sculptural hands that are coming from on top of those planters touching each other to kind symbolize the human connection that we hope will win over these borders. It’s really about reconnecting to our humanity, reconnecting the land, so that’s kind of what my practice is focused on right now. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm, I wanna pull this word that natalia just used, reconnecting, because it feels like that was at the focus, it was a focus point for you in this film, “The In-Between”, Robie, which I wanna share a trailer for listeners…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[ Trailer ] I must have crossed this bridge a million times, but the first time I remember was when my brothers, the twins, Mars and Alex were born. But Mars is gone now, and all I’m left with is his camera. Now that I’m back here, can I find my memories of us? Can I find you? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Robie, tell us about “The In-Between” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ay güey, Well, now you’re making me cry. This is just so surreal because, um, uh, yeah, I, I wanted to go back and make this movie in 2016. I was, I was in New York working at Bloomberg at the time. Um, and I was uh, you know, in the newsroom, I was working next to the news editors while I was like editing on another show and it was just these constant sound bites about the border and how dangerous it is and how we need walls and all these things, and it just sounded so foreign to me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was just like, what? It’s really chill. I mean, at least the one that I know. Like it’s like. It’s really not like they were making it sound like an action movie. And I was like, “No, let me let me show you like, I’ll invite you like come with me and I’ll show you the cool parts.” You know, and that’s, that’s what the movie was, I just wanted to invite people home and show that. But at the core of it, I wanted it to be, you know, a visit to the border for everybody that hasn’t had the privilege of getting to experience it yet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like if you look up border on IMDB and all the movies that come out with border are always like the same stories. And I looked it up. They all are like. You know, like trauma and, you know, violence and carteles and like, you know, whatever, all the same shit. And like, we, we know that, but for us that are from the border, like we know. That border frontera, I means like carne asada means cumbia means like, you know. Like the identity crisis of not being ni de aquí, ni de alla. Yeah, it’s just like, that’s the real border crisis in my mind, you know? And it’s like, and no one’s talking about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like I think I didn’t realize as I was a child because there were other people around me who felt this too, but there also weren’t of just like leaving the walls of your house where you speak Spanglish to like going to school where It was discouraged to speak any Spanish. Learning from a really young age to cross borders, even when you’re not physically crossing the border or when you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>being from like two different worlds and not really seeing that in the media around you. I think maybe Hannah Montana was like the closest like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, duality like…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Robie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she said the best of both worlds, which we are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But this is something that I’ve been like realizing, slowly realizing and is what our mission is with this movie and like the work that we do is that there isn’t like, if you think about like, for example, New York and New Yorkers and stuff, like there’s a culture and everybody knows it. Everybody around the world knows it, like we know the accents, like we the fucking baseball hats, Like, we know, like… You know, we know all the nuances of it. And like, yet when someone makes like a movie or writes a book about New York or like a song, no one’s like, but what about the crime? Like, why isn’t, you know, like, but isn’t New York dangerous? You know what, like we do that about the border all the time!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mhmm. We’re going to take a short little break, but we’ll be back with some more Hyphenación after this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I still get a chance to go home, maybe two to three\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">times a year and a couple of years ago, I went home for Thanksgiving and we celebrated at my primo’s ranch. He owns quite a bit of land, literally about maybe a few yards away from the Rio Grande. So we were pretty much at what you would call ground zero. And while we were there, my primo wife said, Hey, would you like a tour? Just since you haven’t seen it, we said, sure. Do you know, I saw some of the things that have been shown on TV. So saw the barbed wire, saw the dozens of national guardsmen, saw the mounds of clothing and the artifacts that have been left behind by folks making their migratory journey here into the United States. And even though I was a little bit taken aback, like, oh my God, I I wasn’t expecting to see all of this. My prima, asi como si nada, was just like saying hi to all the National Guardsmen that she sees every day and passing by all of these things that have now become, part of her day-to-day. So it does get into this notion of the normalization of what we do see on the border. And so I’m curious for you, natalia, since you do live still on the Border, what has become normalized for you of what you see? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, as you just said, it’s very normal to see barbed wire, to see construction projects constantly at the border, um, border patrollers, um, multiple like law enforcement agencies. Um, it’s normal to see people making their journeys. And all of it is very much a part of our culture here. At this point we’ve accepted the border as such a permanent strong thing as a society when in reality it’s so, it’s been a blip in our human history and we need to remember that and we need to move towards that again. Like, for example, the border walls at Friendship Park in the 70s, when the park got inaugurated by the first lady, Pat Nixon, it was just a string of barbed wire and she had her Secret Service cut it so she could greet the people on the Tijuana side. And she said, “I hope there won’t be a fence too long here.” And over the decades, it’s become a 30 foot galvanized steel double wall. Most people are just used to seeing it at this point, which is sad because it shouldn’t be that way. It’s a place where so much of the world just kind of comes together because migrants who come here are coming from all over the world, not just Latin America. And so we have a real opportunity to have kinship with people from all over the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus in on this word kinship, can you tell me about the beauty of working at friendship Park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, I have learned so many beautiful examples of how to care radically for each other, even when we are not family, even if we’ve only known each other for a split second. The way that people who live here really care for the people on their migratory journeys is so inspiring to me and it’s something that I’ve tried to like embody more and more. When I’m driving around near the border and I see someone walking on the street, I know they’re probably on their journey and I will stop and offer them water or food. You know, it’s just something that we need to ingrain more in if you are living near the border because this is a part of that life and really practicing like treating somebody like they are your kin. I think is like the answer to so much injustice and problems around us. And it’s how we like can survive these conditions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also in Eagle Pass have a connection to this idea of friendship because there is an international friendship parade and day that happens in Eagle Pass where we do meet up with folks in Piedras and there’s this huge celebration and Robie I love that the in-between starts and ends with imagery that is at least to me because I know it happens for a friendship day and also for 4th of July but tell me about your reasoning for showcasing this particular moment and day. That we celebrate on the border. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it just like it was so funny it was the first thing I shot when I went home. It was so funny because everybody like back in New York and like this like the center of news is like freaking out about everything that’s going out on the border and like and so I’m like so like living in that for so long that I go home and I am being like, oh my God, how is everybody going to be like. I came back and they were still doing it, you know, and it’s like and they still do it now with all this shit going on. You know, like they’re still doing all the binational celebrations. Like to see the wide shot of this is like, this is what we don’t get to see, Everybody’s hanging out here under like the same beautiful sky. And like, and our river is so narrow that you can literally say hi to each other and hang out and stuff and and and it’s really beautiful. It’s just like, you know, this is our culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to just quickly say, I do, every time I bring someone home for a visit\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I always take them during friendship week because of the Noches Mexicanas festival that you’re talking about, which interestingly enough, it’s called Noches Mexicanas on the American side.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to further paint this picture that Robie was showing. It all takes place in a park that is beyond the border fence. So it is in this, like, weird purgatory section where it’s in between the border fence and the Rio Grande, but it has always been there. So it’s everybody with their puestecitos selling the funnel cakes, their espiropapas, the raspas, like the I was frescas. It all happens right there and it is such a beautiful reflection of community and just everything that We have. Again, this culture that we have to offer on the border, which I do want to end with this one question to each of you, which is, what is your favorite part about being from the border? I’ll say that for me, it is every time I go home, every time, I go to the border. I am allowed to remember the core of who I am and like I feel like I’ll never be able to lose that joy and pride of border identity. I want to start with you, natalia. What is your favorite part?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>natalia ventura: \u003c/b>Yeah, very similar. Just being able to go to Tijuana, get the world’s best tacos, eat some nieves, and just like really tap into those childhood memories, you know, just being a kid, visiting my family, enjoying life. There’s so much beauty and color in Tijuana and it’s hustling and bustling and I love it so much. And it’s such a privilege to be able to just go enjoy that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. What about your Robie?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love just like the remix that like we create, like we’re like the hybridity, the hyphenación, you know, like I like for us, like, I think that we’re, like so beautifully defined. When I was like in New York, all my Mexican friends that were there from Mexico City were like, nachos aren’t a Mexican food. And then, I was always like constantly being shamed for not being Mexican enough. But then I’m like, no, they’re fucking Frontera food and you’re welcome because they’re amazing and everybody has them. And this is what happens at the border. That’s one example of all these amazing things that happen at the border when these two beautiful cultures collide and influence each other. And from there, we have margaritas and Caesar salad and burritos and so many more things. And that’s the beauty of the fluidity and that I’m so proud of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I feel like the the greatest takeaway is that there’s four great exports from the border each of us and the nacho. Well I want to think each of you for for joining me for this wonderful conversation about home Because at the center of it it really is about home for for all three of us and for a lot of people who are. So thank you both for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robie Flores: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. Thank you for having us, Jorge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to let folks know if you want to look at each of their works, just go to our show notes, you will have links to natalia’s work to how you can find and watch the in between Robie’s film and how you can support them in the efforts that they do. And if you are a border person, or if you have a question for us to address on hyphenation, all you have to do is email us at hyp@kqed.org. But until next time, Take care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "do-latinos-still-believe-in-the-american-dream-hyphenacion",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immigrants to the U.S. have all heard about the American Dream — that in this land of opportunity, anyone can make it regardless of class. People come from all over the world to chase this dream, but it seems like the land of opportunities is not providing many of them anymore. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with journalist and author Paola Ramos (\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>) and fellow journalist Brian De Los Santos to explore the questions “What do Latinos actually want from this country? And can it give it to us?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7100365102&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/5j6YUeqbHZw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paola Ramos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/paoramos/\">Instagram, \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741645/defectors-by-paola-ramos/\">\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brian De Los Santos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bdelossantos1/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003cbr>\n[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, the American dream. How we’ve heard of her for generations. Well, I should say versions of her, because this is the version that I grew up with. Well for starters, I’d be a homeowner. I’m thinking a spacious three-bedroom, two-bathroom in a nice neighborhood with some killer curb appeal. I’d then have that weird, not a given average of 2.3 kids, each of which would probably go to an overpriced prestigious school. Even Yeah, point three one because I love my kids equally. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And me, well, I’d be a lawyer, or a doctor, or some other career that my parents could gush about to their compadres. Oh mijo, fíjate, he’s doing really well for himself, we’re very proud of him.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, clearly I decided to emphasize the dream part of this American dream scenario, because that’s definitely not my life. I’m a longtime renter, I’m a dog parent, and even though I don’t save lives like a doctor would, I’d like to think I change lives with my podcasts. And I’m okay with that! Because I think I’m doing pretty well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that doesn’t really negate the fact that I was conditioned to want a lot more for myself, by my parents, by society, by the culture around me. Because to be American means to have certain expectations for yourself and for your country, when it comes to pursuing personal and professional successes. I should be able to do this. I should able to afford that. Regardless of my race, religion, gender, lo que sea. In essence, life should feel easy in this very powerful nation. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that hasn’t always been realistic for a lot of folks, especially in the face of institutional racism and poverty. And with unemployment still high, bills mounting up and individual rights seemingly in limbo. Does any of that sound like the promise of America? I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m asking What do we really want from America? And what is it able to give it to us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, I just gave an idea about what my dream house would seem like if I was able to pursue this American dream. And I’m curious about what my guests would like to live in. And I am starting off with my first guest, Paola Ramos. She is a journalist and an author mostly of Latine experiences, the most recent being called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, which talks about the rise of the far right Latino community. Paola, thank you so much for joining me today. And I’m curious, what would your house look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I envision it in the West Village of New York City. I envision a brownstone. I envision, like, wood floors, high ceilings, like open windows. I would be okay in that setting with two bedrooms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe like I can live close to a park, forget that I’m in the city, but then when I want to, I’m the city. Like that’s the dream for sure. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking to you… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I might steal this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>…\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from a\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Small apartment in Brooklyn, New York, no complaints, but one day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the West Village. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We’re also joined by Brian De Los Santos who is an LA-based journalist and a proud Angelino. So I have to ask, Brian, is your dream house in Los Angeles?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hell yeah.100%. And I would say Malibu, but you know what happened there with the fires early this year. So I gotta rethink my dream house, you know. My first instinct is the beach, the waves, some above that California marijuana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vibes all around. I love the beach. I’m a Leo. I get I love warm days. But the second part to that answer is I have a condo that has two stories. It’s out in the desert. Unfortunately, I don’t live there, like, I don’t live there right now because I’m in LA. But it’s, yeah, I would say I was able to get a little bit of the American dream, but it’s not, I’m not there right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you both for your answers and thank you for joining me for this conversation because I think there’s something to say about the American dream and it somehow being synonymous with this notion of upward mobility and that also kind of resonates with immigration stories, migration stories, like why most folks came to this country to begin with. And so I wanna focus there first. And I wanna start with you, Paola, if you don’t mind maybe sharing your family’s migration story and how this notion of America even first came to be for you all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to my parents, for them, it was really around grasping here a very basic principle and freedom and right that didn’t exist where they came from, which is back then the basic principle of freedom of press and freedom of speech. So my mom is a Cuban exile, comes from a family of Cuban immigrants. My grandfather was a journalist in Cuba, first started with the revolution, started with Castro and sort of two years into Castro’s sort of rise in power, my grandfather ends up being imprisoned because he was writing articles against el Castrismo. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My father leaves Mexico at a time when Televisa, the, of course, massive Mexican media empire, at that point in his career, this is mid-’80s, they start restricting his radio pieces and his radio stories. And so he decides to leave. And so both of my parents come to the United States looking for that, looking to freely express themselves. And looking for freedom of press. My dad who then ended up becoming a news anchor for Univision, he would always tell me the biggest privilege and power you will ever have is your pen, this ability to write stories, to hold people in power accountable, the ability to ask questions. And I think that I sort of grew up with that understanding that were I ever to walk into those spaces of power, like that was my duty, my duty was that. And so I think that is the sort of environment and the conversations that I grew up in. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re now, of course, existing in a very different reality as journalists, and so this is something that I wake up with thinking about every single day. Slowly, these rights that I grew up with, they’re slowly eroding in front of us every single day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm, Brian, how did your family approach their migration to this country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I came with my parents. My dad came here first, and then I came with my mom in 1992. And I think for them, the American dream was just financial freedom, any little bit of it. They were leaving Mexico in an era where it was everyone’s financially challenged and there was no way out and they were seeing opportunities happen here in the late 80s and that’s what inspired them to come here, and so my parents are Christian pastors. And so they feel their success is tied with the religion, whether that is establishing a church of their own or that is serving in some way. So it really isn’t just about financial success or their home. FYI, my parents were undocumented when they came into this country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They always told me you know work hard you’re gonna get something bigger in return you’re going to be successful at things and I think that impacted me so much when I was a little kid that that’s what I thought was gonna happen and I hoped that would happen. They ended up buying a house. The market crash happened in 2007, 2008. And they were impacted. And I think that’s when they realized, oh, this shit is hard. You know, this is, you can be an immigrant, you can a good immigrant, you can do everything by the book and it’ll still be, you will still fail. And I do believe millennials, no shade to anyone else… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughte\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>r\u003c/em>] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … and no shade to any other generation, but I think millennials are redefining what that American dream is. Like I am talking to my friends about like, they’re not getting pregnant, some couples are like, “I don’t care about buying a house anymore. I want to be stable and I want to go on vacations with my family.” Do I care about a home? I don’t know. So we’ll see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like this idea of the shifting tides of the American dream. I mean, you addressed it. I talked about it in the intro. I don’t have any of the things that I thought would be part of the American dream that I grew up with. And Paola have you had conversations either with your friends, other family members about how what you’re pursuing just doesn’t seem to be identical to what they had in mind for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I mean, I’m thinking of what I was thinking when I was five. And I think I think that’s the thing. This American dream sort of like corrupts your mind, you know, and it pushes you to believe that you’re supposed to meet certain certain measures. Like, I thought that by the time I was 37, which is what I am, I thought that I would be married to a man. I’m a lesbian. If I had that, I would be, you know, yes, like living in this house. And I think for many of us millennials, we’re understanding that it is extremely hard to achieve that in this country. In this country that sells you that this is a country of possibilities that sells you the message that you can do it all, which sure, we’re all trying as hard as we can, but I think what we’re coming to terms with is that at what cost, no? And that’s the question. I believe that I can achieve all these things, but I feel like I’m kind of selling my soul to the system, no?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I look around me, and I’m speaking from a point of immense privilege. But when I’m out there doing, you know, interviews and of course, more than anything, like talking to, like, mixed status families and immigrants, more often than not, I feel like I’m kind of sensing this big shift right now, where this American dream and the idea of it is dimming, because sure, we are sort of checking the measures, the economic measures. No, we’re- we’re having better opportunities than our parents, upward mobility is a real thing, but then the question of like, are we still truly respected, right? Like are our rights truly being respected? Like is dignity, you know the dignity that this country promises in that dream, like does that fully exist? You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So is it a myth, the American dream, or is it just evolving to a place that we can’t quite define it yet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I low-key think it’s a myth, and I’ll let people process that by their own. As Paola was talking about her own privilege, I also need to check myself because I have DACA, which is a work permit, and sometimes like Paola, when I’m interviewing mixed-status families, I’m like, I feel the privilege that I hold in this space, whether it’s in media or whether it is just having financial stability. And so for me, it’s a myth in other theories, in other ways that we see out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, I think that’s like the key question that we’re wrestling with as a nation and in American politics right now is like, you know, are we truly or are we all headed towards this like multiracial, pluralistic, diverse democracy, or at our core, is it always the case that we keep going back to roots of this country, right, which is a country that was founded upon the principles of white supremacy. And it is a country that every turn, every time it can, it has oppressed and oppressed and oppressed every attempt to sort of diverge from those origins. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think that’s kind of what we’re wrestling with as a country. And I think not to bring it back to politics, but I think that’s why perhaps the 2024 election once again was such a shock for so many people because it was like. Here we are again, we had an opportunity to elect a black women president, and yet again, we couldn’t do it. No, here we are again, we’ve had multiple attempts at passing comprehensive immigration reform, and yeah, we don’t do it. No, Here we again, separating families. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it’s almost like, at some point, we have to be real with what we’re dealing with. And if it is true, in fact, that are we or not a country of immigrants, like are we or not, you know, like all of these have for so many years, like shaped the way that we think of this country, right? Which is, yes, it’s a country full of dreams and the American dream. And perhaps, perhaps we’re not.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’re going to take a short little break and we’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politics is cyclical, some of these stories we’ve been hearing about for generations for, you know, multiple administrations. Like, because the timeline seems like it’s repeating itself, do we think that’s why the American dream continues on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I’m kind of going through my own personal crisis in this era. I think for me also, my personal story is as an undocumented immigrant who has a work permit that could go away any second, I’m always on survival mode. Like whether I have a house or whether I own a car or not. I don’t know what’s gonna happen with my future. And the pathway to a green card to citizenship is not there for me. I have to go through different loopholes to try to get one. And even though I have an immigration lawyer and we’re trying to do what we can for my case, it’s not the easiest one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>XO: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Paola what do you think?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, look, I think so long as this country continues to present us with opportunities, you know opportunities that are better here than those where our family’s left behind, the dream will continue to exist. However, I do think that we are in the midst of a breaking point where, at least I’m finding as I’m talking to people, people that aren’t being deported. I’m talking about people that are choosing to leave on their own terms. And I think there’s a type of empowerment and liberation that is coming from families that are kind of looking at themselves and at their journey in this country and that are saying, you know what, I can’t do it anymore. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, I’ve been meeting a significant amount of people that are making that decision and I’ve had following them around the country. And I’ve done following them across the border. And I’m talking to you after just coming back from Panama and Columbia, where I was able to talk to, for example, like a group of 30 Venezuelans many of them were waiting along the US-Mexico border in limbo for a couple of months, and all of whom decided at some point in the last couple of weeks that they couldn’t take it anymore. That it was not worth it for them to live in a country. That would criminalize them and deport them to another country simply because of their tattoos. And so in those conversations, they chose that their dignity at this point was more worth it than living in a country that was giving them the bare minimum. But then I think I mentioned that it’s a breaking point because then what really stuck with me is that when I asked them, is this dream replaceable? They said, yes. And so what happens when you leave the dream and you sort of start looking for it elsewhere? And I think that’s kind of where we’re at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, let’s get to the question, which is at the heart of the episode, which is what do you want from America? And what do think it can give you? Brian, what is it that you want?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, damn. You put it so deeply. Almost got me teary-eyed over it right now. The one thing that I come back to is, as an immigrant in this country, I just want to be treated like a human. I don’t want to be seen as a policy story. I don’t want to be seen as a tax ID number. I don’t want to be seen as anything else but just like, oh, he’s a dude who wants to do this and that and is talented. And I think that’s where, you know, I could see the American dream be about as a human and be treated as such, but sometimes I feel like a number in this country. So if I had a little magic wand and be like, Brian, what do you want out of this country is people respect each other and are more empathetic, even though that’s a controversial topic out there that empathy is not a thing. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I want to be treated more humanly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like that. Paola, What would yours be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to agree. I mean, I think it’s, yeah, just to have this country love you back entirely. And I think the expectation was that at this time in history, you know, just talking about myself, as queer people in this diverse nation, the expectation is that we would be more loved. And I don’t think we’re necessarily, we’re definitely not there yet. And so I think I expect like a very basic level of humanity and love. And I expect that in these moments of transition, I expect this country to really truly uphold its democratic norms and institutions that allow for these dreams to be alive. You know what I’m saying? So like at a time when there’s so much uncertainty, My expectation, and I’m not a religious person, but I pray for this, is that those core democratic norms are unshakable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">witnessed part of this transition, especially as it’s documented in your book \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, because it’s talking about the rise or at least now folks are becoming a bit more aware of the conservative wing of the Latino community. So if you can share a little bit about maybe what they told you about their dreams and desires of what this country should give them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story is that we believed, that as Latinos, our American dream looked a certain way. I think what we’re also understanding is that for those over 45% of Latinos that voted for Trump, I think they are showing us that. The American dream can be corrupted. Knowing that there’s a point in this journey where like individualism and capitalism and our sort of ambition to make it in this country, our ambition to assimilate, our ambition to attain power, our mission to be at the top, that can lead a lot of people, including Latinos and including immigrants and including black and brown people, that can leave you to a more corrupted darker version of the American Dream. Now that can be a brown person to find something extremely appealing in Trump’s version of the American dream, which is an American dream that is whiter, that is less threatened by diversity. And I think A, is just like sitting with that reality, but then understanding, and I think that’s kind of like the more interesting part, like posing the question to all the like Latino insurrectionists that I’ve interviewed and the Latino Proud Boys and sort of the border vigilantes that find something so appealing in Trumps like, version of the American Dream, the question that I now have for them is like, today in Trump’s America, how free are you? Did you attain that power? Did he give you anything? Do you have more now than you did back then? And I think slowly, perhaps, the answer is no, right? But I think the illusion of that dream is more powerful, of course, than the reality. And that’s what I believe, I would assume, is what many of them are coming to terms \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that the American dream can only exist in competition to someone else’s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s how we’ve typically defined the dream. And I think if we define the dream as a dream of possibilities, then yes. But I think we define a dream as the dream is based on rights, and freedoms, and justice, and movements, then it’s different. And I that’s why when you ask this question, people are going to give you two different versions. Yes, I attained the dream of possibility. But no, I didn’t attain the dream of rights and freedoms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think because we’re so used to talking about this in economic terms and in the frame of upward mobility, I think that’s where people do get threatened, because then the dream means that you’re taking something away from the other person, that you are climbing up the ladder, but not the other person. And I think, unfortunately, if we’ve learned something within American politics and within Latino politics, is that we too can be greedy, and that we, too, many times don’t want the other immigrants to climb up the ladder the same way that we did. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that is a harsh reality of where we are, you know? That in this country, we’re so used to working so hard to attain that dream and they make it so hard to do it that we then become so corrupted that we don’t want the same opportunities for that other person. And that, that is something that is, that does happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I think it’s because some people will be like oh well I made it and I’m fine and why aren’t you making it. I’m like honey, we’re not the same people, you know. There was a conversation at my dinner table. Mom, I’m sorry, but I’m going to say it here. Um, she saw a video on YouTube, got her news from there. And she’s like, why are these immigrants coming in this way? They’re like invading the country. I’m like, mom, you crossed the border with me in 1992. What are you talking about? And I had to check her. I’m, like, you cannot be like talking about this news that you got from YouTube that you don’t, I don’t know what channel she got it from. With all these bad references. I’m like, you are a leader in your community. You cannot talk about immigrants this way. You are one. And so just going back to the fact that Paola brought up, some people will pull up the ladder away from the next person that’s coming in. It’s happening. And so for me, it’s just wild to see these things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Brian, you actually had a chance to do something which I haven’t had a change to do, which is ask your parents directly about this question on the American dream that, at least my parents sold me first. But how did that conversation go? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was a little scared to ask them because I’m like, am I gonna be frazzled by their answer? But my dad kept it really real. He’s like, we know that the policies or even people have treated each other badly in this country. And he knows it hasn’t been easy. He knows that he’s had his own personal hurdles and at his church, he’s also seen other people’s hurdles. And we’ve seen people get deported, we’ve seen people. Lose themselves in this country. And so what he says, I feel like this is a place that everyone can come to, but we know it’s hard and not everyone can make it here. And, I feel like I’m still happy being here. Like he’s, he says he’s not going to bag on the US. He’s not going to talk bad about the US, but he says. He understands how people experience the life here. And he’s happy where he’s at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Paola, have you had a chance to talk to your parents about this or saving it for Thanksgiving? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I think, look, they have, I would say, different ideas. So I think my dad is someone that fundamentally believes that the dream is alive and that it is worth sticking around to see where it ends. No, and like I said, so long as, and I think that’s how he would measure it, not so long, as his children, which is myself and my brother, have more opportunities than him. Which we did. We went to American colleges and we were able to sort of enter the English-speaking media world in a way that he has never been able to. So long as those things are real, I think my dad will always say it’s worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mother left the United States two years ago, so my mom now lives in Spain. She’s in Madrid. And I think that’s given her a lot of perspective, not to be able to see the US from afar, particularly the US that we’re sort of evolving into and turning into. And I mean, she would probably say, if I were to ask her, like, would you ever come back and live here on your choice voluntarily? I would assume that she would say no. Because I think then in Spain, she has found a certain like peace. She also is a journalist. So I think kind of like leaving the crazy world of American journalism and like the newsrooms. I also think maybe that has something to do with it. No, she’s not as crazy as dude, but I think there’s a level of calmness and peace. Maybe there’s something to not living in the sort of day-to-day competitiveness, sort of like all of us hustling. And I think she’s content. And I think in her eyes, she would probably say that it’s perhaps… Attainable elsewhere, not just in the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for joining me for this. It really was an existential conversation about, like, what are we doing\u003c/span>\u003cb>.\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so I could not have thought of two better people to have this conversation. So thank you so much for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. This was like therapy, honestly. So I’m good for the week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Canceling my session this week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Literally!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to remind our listeners, if you want to send us your thoughts about what the American Dream is, or what your version of the American dream is, please send us an email at HYP at kqed.org, or if you want to sent us an idea for an upcoming episode. But until then, hasta luego.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003cbr>\nMixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.\u003cbr>\nJen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker.\u003cbr>\nThanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan.\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support.\u003cbr>\nOkay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Immigrants to the U.S. have all heard about the American Dream-- that in this land of opportunity, anyone can make it regardless of class. People come from all over the world to chase this dream, but it seems like the land of opportunity is not providing many of them anymore. This week on Hyphenación, Host Xorje Olivares speaks with journalist and author Paola Ramos (Defectors) and fellow journalist Brian De Los Santos to explore the questions “What do Latinos actually want from this country? Can it give it to us?”",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immigrants to the U.S. have all heard about the American Dream — that in this land of opportunity, anyone can make it regardless of class. People come from all over the world to chase this dream, but it seems like the land of opportunities is not providing many of them anymore. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares speaks with journalist and author Paola Ramos (\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>) and fellow journalist Brian De Los Santos to explore the questions “What do Latinos actually want from this country? And can it give it to us?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC7100365102&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/5j6YUeqbHZw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/5j6YUeqbHZw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paola Ramos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/paoramos/\">Instagram, \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741645/defectors-by-paola-ramos/\">\u003cem>Defectors\u003c/em>\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brian De Los Santos (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bdelossantos1/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, the American dream. How we’ve heard of her for generations. Well, I should say versions of her, because this is the version that I grew up with. Well for starters, I’d be a homeowner. I’m thinking a spacious three-bedroom, two-bathroom in a nice neighborhood with some killer curb appeal. I’d then have that weird, not a given average of 2.3 kids, each of which would probably go to an overpriced prestigious school. Even Yeah, point three one because I love my kids equally. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And me, well, I’d be a lawyer, or a doctor, or some other career that my parents could gush about to their compadres. Oh mijo, fíjate, he’s doing really well for himself, we’re very proud of him.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, clearly I decided to emphasize the dream part of this American dream scenario, because that’s definitely not my life. I’m a longtime renter, I’m a dog parent, and even though I don’t save lives like a doctor would, I’d like to think I change lives with my podcasts. And I’m okay with that! Because I think I’m doing pretty well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that doesn’t really negate the fact that I was conditioned to want a lot more for myself, by my parents, by society, by the culture around me. Because to be American means to have certain expectations for yourself and for your country, when it comes to pursuing personal and professional successes. I should be able to do this. I should able to afford that. Regardless of my race, religion, gender, lo que sea. In essence, life should feel easy in this very powerful nation. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that hasn’t always been realistic for a lot of folks, especially in the face of institutional racism and poverty. And with unemployment still high, bills mounting up and individual rights seemingly in limbo. Does any of that sound like the promise of America? I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m asking What do we really want from America? And what is it able to give it to us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, I just gave an idea about what my dream house would seem like if I was able to pursue this American dream. And I’m curious about what my guests would like to live in. And I am starting off with my first guest, Paola Ramos. She is a journalist and an author mostly of Latine experiences, the most recent being called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, which talks about the rise of the far right Latino community. Paola, thank you so much for joining me today. And I’m curious, what would your house look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I envision it in the West Village of New York City. I envision a brownstone. I envision, like, wood floors, high ceilings, like open windows. I would be okay in that setting with two bedrooms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And maybe like I can live close to a park, forget that I’m in the city, but then when I want to, I’m the city. Like that’s the dream for sure. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking to you… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I might steal this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>…\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from a\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Small apartment in Brooklyn, New York, no complaints, but one day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the West Village. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We’re also joined by Brian De Los Santos who is an LA-based journalist and a proud Angelino. So I have to ask, Brian, is your dream house in Los Angeles?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hell yeah.100%. And I would say Malibu, but you know what happened there with the fires early this year. So I gotta rethink my dream house, you know. My first instinct is the beach, the waves, some above that California marijuana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vibes all around. I love the beach. I’m a Leo. I get I love warm days. But the second part to that answer is I have a condo that has two stories. It’s out in the desert. Unfortunately, I don’t live there, like, I don’t live there right now because I’m in LA. But it’s, yeah, I would say I was able to get a little bit of the American dream, but it’s not, I’m not there right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you both for your answers and thank you for joining me for this conversation because I think there’s something to say about the American dream and it somehow being synonymous with this notion of upward mobility and that also kind of resonates with immigration stories, migration stories, like why most folks came to this country to begin with. And so I wanna focus there first. And I wanna start with you, Paola, if you don’t mind maybe sharing your family’s migration story and how this notion of America even first came to be for you all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to my parents, for them, it was really around grasping here a very basic principle and freedom and right that didn’t exist where they came from, which is back then the basic principle of freedom of press and freedom of speech. So my mom is a Cuban exile, comes from a family of Cuban immigrants. My grandfather was a journalist in Cuba, first started with the revolution, started with Castro and sort of two years into Castro’s sort of rise in power, my grandfather ends up being imprisoned because he was writing articles against el Castrismo. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My father leaves Mexico at a time when Televisa, the, of course, massive Mexican media empire, at that point in his career, this is mid-’80s, they start restricting his radio pieces and his radio stories. And so he decides to leave. And so both of my parents come to the United States looking for that, looking to freely express themselves. And looking for freedom of press. My dad who then ended up becoming a news anchor for Univision, he would always tell me the biggest privilege and power you will ever have is your pen, this ability to write stories, to hold people in power accountable, the ability to ask questions. And I think that I sort of grew up with that understanding that were I ever to walk into those spaces of power, like that was my duty, my duty was that. And so I think that is the sort of environment and the conversations that I grew up in. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re now, of course, existing in a very different reality as journalists, and so this is something that I wake up with thinking about every single day. Slowly, these rights that I grew up with, they’re slowly eroding in front of us every single day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm, Brian, how did your family approach their migration to this country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I came with my parents. My dad came here first, and then I came with my mom in 1992. And I think for them, the American dream was just financial freedom, any little bit of it. They were leaving Mexico in an era where it was everyone’s financially challenged and there was no way out and they were seeing opportunities happen here in the late 80s and that’s what inspired them to come here, and so my parents are Christian pastors. And so they feel their success is tied with the religion, whether that is establishing a church of their own or that is serving in some way. So it really isn’t just about financial success or their home. FYI, my parents were undocumented when they came into this country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They always told me you know work hard you’re gonna get something bigger in return you’re going to be successful at things and I think that impacted me so much when I was a little kid that that’s what I thought was gonna happen and I hoped that would happen. They ended up buying a house. The market crash happened in 2007, 2008. And they were impacted. And I think that’s when they realized, oh, this shit is hard. You know, this is, you can be an immigrant, you can a good immigrant, you can do everything by the book and it’ll still be, you will still fail. And I do believe millennials, no shade to anyone else… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughte\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cem>r\u003c/em>] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … and no shade to any other generation, but I think millennials are redefining what that American dream is. Like I am talking to my friends about like, they’re not getting pregnant, some couples are like, “I don’t care about buying a house anymore. I want to be stable and I want to go on vacations with my family.” Do I care about a home? I don’t know. So we’ll see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like this idea of the shifting tides of the American dream. I mean, you addressed it. I talked about it in the intro. I don’t have any of the things that I thought would be part of the American dream that I grew up with. And Paola have you had conversations either with your friends, other family members about how what you’re pursuing just doesn’t seem to be identical to what they had in mind for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I mean, I’m thinking of what I was thinking when I was five. And I think I think that’s the thing. This American dream sort of like corrupts your mind, you know, and it pushes you to believe that you’re supposed to meet certain certain measures. Like, I thought that by the time I was 37, which is what I am, I thought that I would be married to a man. I’m a lesbian. If I had that, I would be, you know, yes, like living in this house. And I think for many of us millennials, we’re understanding that it is extremely hard to achieve that in this country. In this country that sells you that this is a country of possibilities that sells you the message that you can do it all, which sure, we’re all trying as hard as we can, but I think what we’re coming to terms with is that at what cost, no? And that’s the question. I believe that I can achieve all these things, but I feel like I’m kind of selling my soul to the system, no?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I look around me, and I’m speaking from a point of immense privilege. But when I’m out there doing, you know, interviews and of course, more than anything, like talking to, like, mixed status families and immigrants, more often than not, I feel like I’m kind of sensing this big shift right now, where this American dream and the idea of it is dimming, because sure, we are sort of checking the measures, the economic measures. No, we’re- we’re having better opportunities than our parents, upward mobility is a real thing, but then the question of like, are we still truly respected, right? Like are our rights truly being respected? Like is dignity, you know the dignity that this country promises in that dream, like does that fully exist? You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So is it a myth, the American dream, or is it just evolving to a place that we can’t quite define it yet? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I low-key think it’s a myth, and I’ll let people process that by their own. As Paola was talking about her own privilege, I also need to check myself because I have DACA, which is a work permit, and sometimes like Paola, when I’m interviewing mixed-status families, I’m like, I feel the privilege that I hold in this space, whether it’s in media or whether it is just having financial stability. And so for me, it’s a myth in other theories, in other ways that we see out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, I think that’s like the key question that we’re wrestling with as a nation and in American politics right now is like, you know, are we truly or are we all headed towards this like multiracial, pluralistic, diverse democracy, or at our core, is it always the case that we keep going back to roots of this country, right, which is a country that was founded upon the principles of white supremacy. And it is a country that every turn, every time it can, it has oppressed and oppressed and oppressed every attempt to sort of diverge from those origins. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think that’s kind of what we’re wrestling with as a country. And I think not to bring it back to politics, but I think that’s why perhaps the 2024 election once again was such a shock for so many people because it was like. Here we are again, we had an opportunity to elect a black women president, and yet again, we couldn’t do it. No, here we are again, we’ve had multiple attempts at passing comprehensive immigration reform, and yeah, we don’t do it. No, Here we again, separating families. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it’s almost like, at some point, we have to be real with what we’re dealing with. And if it is true, in fact, that are we or not a country of immigrants, like are we or not, you know, like all of these have for so many years, like shaped the way that we think of this country, right? Which is, yes, it’s a country full of dreams and the American dream. And perhaps, perhaps we’re not.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’re going to take a short little break and we’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politics is cyclical, some of these stories we’ve been hearing about for generations for, you know, multiple administrations. Like, because the timeline seems like it’s repeating itself, do we think that’s why the American dream continues on? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I’m kind of going through my own personal crisis in this era. I think for me also, my personal story is as an undocumented immigrant who has a work permit that could go away any second, I’m always on survival mode. Like whether I have a house or whether I own a car or not. I don’t know what’s gonna happen with my future. And the pathway to a green card to citizenship is not there for me. I have to go through different loopholes to try to get one. And even though I have an immigration lawyer and we’re trying to do what we can for my case, it’s not the easiest one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>XO: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Paola what do you think?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, look, I think so long as this country continues to present us with opportunities, you know opportunities that are better here than those where our family’s left behind, the dream will continue to exist. However, I do think that we are in the midst of a breaking point where, at least I’m finding as I’m talking to people, people that aren’t being deported. I’m talking about people that are choosing to leave on their own terms. And I think there’s a type of empowerment and liberation that is coming from families that are kind of looking at themselves and at their journey in this country and that are saying, you know what, I can’t do it anymore. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, I’ve been meeting a significant amount of people that are making that decision and I’ve had following them around the country. And I’ve done following them across the border. And I’m talking to you after just coming back from Panama and Columbia, where I was able to talk to, for example, like a group of 30 Venezuelans many of them were waiting along the US-Mexico border in limbo for a couple of months, and all of whom decided at some point in the last couple of weeks that they couldn’t take it anymore. That it was not worth it for them to live in a country. That would criminalize them and deport them to another country simply because of their tattoos. And so in those conversations, they chose that their dignity at this point was more worth it than living in a country that was giving them the bare minimum. But then I think I mentioned that it’s a breaking point because then what really stuck with me is that when I asked them, is this dream replaceable? They said, yes. And so what happens when you leave the dream and you sort of start looking for it elsewhere? And I think that’s kind of where we’re at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, let’s get to the question, which is at the heart of the episode, which is what do you want from America? And what do think it can give you? Brian, what is it that you want?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, damn. You put it so deeply. Almost got me teary-eyed over it right now. The one thing that I come back to is, as an immigrant in this country, I just want to be treated like a human. I don’t want to be seen as a policy story. I don’t want to be seen as a tax ID number. I don’t want to be seen as anything else but just like, oh, he’s a dude who wants to do this and that and is talented. And I think that’s where, you know, I could see the American dream be about as a human and be treated as such, but sometimes I feel like a number in this country. So if I had a little magic wand and be like, Brian, what do you want out of this country is people respect each other and are more empathetic, even though that’s a controversial topic out there that empathy is not a thing. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I want to be treated more humanly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I like that. Paola, What would yours be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to agree. I mean, I think it’s, yeah, just to have this country love you back entirely. And I think the expectation was that at this time in history, you know, just talking about myself, as queer people in this diverse nation, the expectation is that we would be more loved. And I don’t think we’re necessarily, we’re definitely not there yet. And so I think I expect like a very basic level of humanity and love. And I expect that in these moments of transition, I expect this country to really truly uphold its democratic norms and institutions that allow for these dreams to be alive. You know what I’m saying? So like at a time when there’s so much uncertainty, My expectation, and I’m not a religious person, but I pray for this, is that those core democratic norms are unshakable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, you\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">witnessed part of this transition, especially as it’s documented in your book \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Defectors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, because it’s talking about the rise or at least now folks are becoming a bit more aware of the conservative wing of the Latino community. So if you can share a little bit about maybe what they told you about their dreams and desires of what this country should give them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story is that we believed, that as Latinos, our American dream looked a certain way. I think what we’re also understanding is that for those over 45% of Latinos that voted for Trump, I think they are showing us that. The American dream can be corrupted. Knowing that there’s a point in this journey where like individualism and capitalism and our sort of ambition to make it in this country, our ambition to assimilate, our ambition to attain power, our mission to be at the top, that can lead a lot of people, including Latinos and including immigrants and including black and brown people, that can leave you to a more corrupted darker version of the American Dream. Now that can be a brown person to find something extremely appealing in Trump’s version of the American dream, which is an American dream that is whiter, that is less threatened by diversity. And I think A, is just like sitting with that reality, but then understanding, and I think that’s kind of like the more interesting part, like posing the question to all the like Latino insurrectionists that I’ve interviewed and the Latino Proud Boys and sort of the border vigilantes that find something so appealing in Trumps like, version of the American Dream, the question that I now have for them is like, today in Trump’s America, how free are you? Did you attain that power? Did he give you anything? Do you have more now than you did back then? And I think slowly, perhaps, the answer is no, right? But I think the illusion of that dream is more powerful, of course, than the reality. And that’s what I believe, I would assume, is what many of them are coming to terms \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that the American dream can only exist in competition to someone else’s? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s how we’ve typically defined the dream. And I think if we define the dream as a dream of possibilities, then yes. But I think we define a dream as the dream is based on rights, and freedoms, and justice, and movements, then it’s different. And I that’s why when you ask this question, people are going to give you two different versions. Yes, I attained the dream of possibility. But no, I didn’t attain the dream of rights and freedoms. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think because we’re so used to talking about this in economic terms and in the frame of upward mobility, I think that’s where people do get threatened, because then the dream means that you’re taking something away from the other person, that you are climbing up the ladder, but not the other person. And I think, unfortunately, if we’ve learned something within American politics and within Latino politics, is that we too can be greedy, and that we, too, many times don’t want the other immigrants to climb up the ladder the same way that we did. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that is a harsh reality of where we are, you know? That in this country, we’re so used to working so hard to attain that dream and they make it so hard to do it that we then become so corrupted that we don’t want the same opportunities for that other person. And that, that is something that is, that does happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and I think it’s because some people will be like oh well I made it and I’m fine and why aren’t you making it. I’m like honey, we’re not the same people, you know. There was a conversation at my dinner table. Mom, I’m sorry, but I’m going to say it here. Um, she saw a video on YouTube, got her news from there. And she’s like, why are these immigrants coming in this way? They’re like invading the country. I’m like, mom, you crossed the border with me in 1992. What are you talking about? And I had to check her. I’m, like, you cannot be like talking about this news that you got from YouTube that you don’t, I don’t know what channel she got it from. With all these bad references. I’m like, you are a leader in your community. You cannot talk about immigrants this way. You are one. And so just going back to the fact that Paola brought up, some people will pull up the ladder away from the next person that’s coming in. It’s happening. And so for me, it’s just wild to see these things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Brian, you actually had a chance to do something which I haven’t had a change to do, which is ask your parents directly about this question on the American dream that, at least my parents sold me first. But how did that conversation go? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was a little scared to ask them because I’m like, am I gonna be frazzled by their answer? But my dad kept it really real. He’s like, we know that the policies or even people have treated each other badly in this country. And he knows it hasn’t been easy. He knows that he’s had his own personal hurdles and at his church, he’s also seen other people’s hurdles. And we’ve seen people get deported, we’ve seen people. Lose themselves in this country. And so what he says, I feel like this is a place that everyone can come to, but we know it’s hard and not everyone can make it here. And, I feel like I’m still happy being here. Like he’s, he says he’s not going to bag on the US. He’s not going to talk bad about the US, but he says. He understands how people experience the life here. And he’s happy where he’s at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Paola, have you had a chance to talk to your parents about this or saving it for Thanksgiving? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I think, look, they have, I would say, different ideas. So I think my dad is someone that fundamentally believes that the dream is alive and that it is worth sticking around to see where it ends. No, and like I said, so long as, and I think that’s how he would measure it, not so long, as his children, which is myself and my brother, have more opportunities than him. Which we did. We went to American colleges and we were able to sort of enter the English-speaking media world in a way that he has never been able to. So long as those things are real, I think my dad will always say it’s worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mother left the United States two years ago, so my mom now lives in Spain. She’s in Madrid. And I think that’s given her a lot of perspective, not to be able to see the US from afar, particularly the US that we’re sort of evolving into and turning into. And I mean, she would probably say, if I were to ask her, like, would you ever come back and live here on your choice voluntarily? I would assume that she would say no. Because I think then in Spain, she has found a certain like peace. She also is a journalist. So I think kind of like leaving the crazy world of American journalism and like the newsrooms. I also think maybe that has something to do with it. No, she’s not as crazy as dude, but I think there’s a level of calmness and peace. Maybe there’s something to not living in the sort of day-to-day competitiveness, sort of like all of us hustling. And I think she’s content. And I think in her eyes, she would probably say that it’s perhaps… Attainable elsewhere, not just in the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for joining me for this. It really was an existential conversation about, like, what are we doing\u003c/span>\u003cb>.\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so I could not have thought of two better people to have this conversation. So thank you so much for joining me today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paola Ramos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. This was like therapy, honestly. So I’m good for the week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian De Los Santos: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Canceling my session this week. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paola Ramos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Literally!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to remind our listeners, if you want to send us your thoughts about what the American Dream is, or what your version of the American dream is, please send us an email at HYP at kqed.org, or if you want to sent us an idea for an upcoming episode. But until then, hasta luego.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003cbr>\nMixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.\u003cbr>\nJen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker.\u003cbr>\nThanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan.\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support.\u003cbr>\nOkay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "where-is-our-faith-taking-us",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the world anticipates the changes that a new pope will bring to the Catholic church, fewer Latinos in the U.S. actually identify with Catholicism today. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares discusses the question, “Is God still relevant to us?” with guests Hoja Lopez and Luis Galilei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8100497037&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/Z61jGsi2lp0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoja Lopez (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/hojalopez?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hojalopez.com/about\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Luis Galilei (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/incapapi/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y’all, the Walter Mercado candles WORKED. We have a new pope!! Which still feels a little weird to say. Que en paz descanse Papa Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on May 8th, the papal conclave elected Cardinal Robert Prevost as the Catholic Church’s new leader. And not only is the new Pope Leo the Fourteenth our first-ever American pontiff, he’s also worked as missionary and bishop from Peru for many years. So he’s Latino-adjacent, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now it’s still too soon to say what his papacy will bring, but early responses have seemed positive. And I’m just talking about my own personal text threads. Because did y’all doubt for a second that my family and I are HELLA Catholic? The Mexican culture I grew up with is practically synonymous with Catholicism! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know that’s not the case for everyone. Because as time passes and society pushes forward, younger generations are identifying weaknesses within organized religion. Like the Catholic church still officially believes that queer folks like me, and specifically transgender people, must routinely apologize for our supposed “sinful” existence – which, no thank you. It also refuses to let women become clergy or assume positions of power. And don’t get me started on the ongoing abuse scandal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some will say that Christian institutions are hurting God’s public image, so much so that it’s pushing people away. Others might say that organized religion just isn’t relevant anymore. So, put simply – who or what do we believe in these days?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and I’m eager to ask this question. Is God still relevant to us? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> So joining me today are two people with very different relationships to religion than myself, but we all grew up Catholic. And since we grew up catholic, I’m dying to figure out the last time they went to church. So joining us first is Hoja Lopez, a comedian and writer who pretty much spent her entire academic career in Venezuela going to Catholic school, which all the power to you. And now identifies as, like a spiritually fluid person. So, Hoja, thank you for joining us. And secondly, when was the last time you found yourself in church?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have truly stumped me with this. I was trying to rock my brain. I think the last time I went, I went to a very fancy white lady and man wedding, um, in New Orleans. And there was, uh, it was like one of those grand ones that has like a giant organ in the back and like sort of expansive ceilings. And I’ll tell you what, the Catholics, we really do churches, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was probably like 2017. I stood outside of a church two years ago waiting for my mom to come out. And my mom was sort of like beckoning me in. And I said, I’m good, I’ll stay out here. I’ll wait for you. But that, yeah, there’s something about a church, the grander it is. I don’t know if they’re trying to maybe bamboozle you a little bit to feel the sort of grandiosity of God, the bigger the church is, but um there is something about like a beautiful stained glass that makes you feel like there’s something bigger going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s a chorus of angels just singing bringing you inside its doors, Sister Act style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100% \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not sure if he’s a Sister Act fan but excited to welcome Luis Galilei, who is an actor, filmmaker, and a performer who grew up Catholic, but pretty early on rejected a lot of its teachings, is now very much a follower of Andean spirituality. And so I’m curious for you, Luis, when was the last time you were inside of a church? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I had to look it up because I wanted to put some cultural context here. The last time I was in a church, Teach me How to Dougie drop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whoa. Whoa, OK. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2010 baby when I was 15, dawg. That’s the last time I stepped in there \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll just chime in and say that for me, it was \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Saturday before Easter this year, before Pope Francis left us, it must have, I must have known, my body was drawing me to church in order to give my tocayo one last hurrah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today to have this conversation about religion. So there is this notion that family is the Genesis of our understanding. Oh my God, Genesis, look at what I did there, uh of our understanding of religion. So Hoja, could you talk about w hat your family’s association with religion was, especially maybe Catholicism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, so I grew up with a very religious grandma and great grandma. There were people who were like waking up at 5 a.m. Every day rosary, like they would do the little like, like the whip yourself on your thigh stuff, like really hardcore Opus Dei crazy shit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so my mom was really like kind of the first rebel of the family. I feel like there’s always a rebel. So I got to be a second generation rebel. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">his is just reminding me. I was, uh, I recently had this thing, recently, a couple of years ago– I called my mom and I was like, “Mom, I remember you in a copper pyramid in the middle of the living room,” and my mom’s like, “Ay si mija, I was just praying. I was meditating in the middle of the copper pyramid.” This woman is so not Catholic anymore that she had my stepdad build her a copper that she would sit in. And she would meditate because my mom’s very like woo-woo now. So now it’s a real kind of like combination for her of coming back to Catholicism as an older woman, but still holding like this very broad set of beliefs. But yeah, for her it’s real mix. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">umm hmm, I see that\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luis, who would you say is the most religious person in your family when you think about religion, like at a Catholic level, Christian level, this like church going figure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I never had someone in my family that was like a very much a church going figure. For me, like the Catholicism was just like,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it was a part of our upbringing, it was a part of our life. Everything, everything had to do with it, except for going to church.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh interesting\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>Once I started to become of age I guess like my mom started to get like really enthused with getting me in Sunday school classes and working on my first communion like all all my family has done all the like communion and confirmation thing and that’s where it stopped and then like sometimes they go to church very like now that they’re older they go because I think they’re starting to feel their mortality So they’re like, let’s let me pray to something bigger and I’m like, oh, it’s very interesting how you guys go now Uh, God’s been watching the whole time, girl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did y’all do catechism school? Like you went through the full, I call it like a prep course, LSAT, but except for more like, what, eight years old. I imagine it’s like very similar to like, um, like the studying that you have to do for your bat mitzvah. Like you have learn so many things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, the fact that in catechism that I acted out the prodigal son parable at least five times in my childhood. Like I was the son that came back and was like, my son, you’ve been gone for so long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but yeah, we would do it, we would have class right before mass. So it was like a three hour extravaganza \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So long!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I just made a realization on why I don’t fuck with Catholicism just now b\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ecause you were talking about acting out that thing and like you were the son and like, I didn’t grow up with my dad. Like my dad was out of my life and he chose to be out of life. And like this whole religion is about somebody’s son. And I’m like, fuck that guy. Where is he at? Oh, dang. I don’t know if that’s like real, but like maybe I was like, whoa, I feel a little like, I felt like a little vulnerable right there when you said that. And I was, like, wait, I wonder if as a little kid, like I was just like this whole son father thing, like really just, I didn’t believe in it because it wasn’t granted for me. So I was. Why? I don’t understand this. And, I was I questioned it from the get \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you have this sort of like the bug in the back of your head because I didn’t have that I, I wasn’t like a kid that like knew how to beat to the rhythm of my own drum I was such a little follower as a kid. The only reason that I like um That I went to catechism school really was I really thought it was all real like and I wasn’t really into the judgment. I liked the magic of it. I like the stories of it like I liked this sort In some way, I didn’t really have like a super present dad in my life either. But there were a lot of other stories that I really sort of like identified with. And I loved all the virgins crying blood, the drama, the DRAMA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a very dramatic religion. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I love that Luis, you know, when I, when they introduced you, we talked about Andean spiritual beliefs, that that’s more of where you’re headed in. Can you explain what that that means for folks who are just learning about this for the first time? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>E\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">sentially it’s praying to the earth. Pachamama is the earth then we have Inti, which is the sun god, the mammakia, which is the moon. And there’s many different Quechua names for the different aspects of Earth that you prayed to I guess how I got into it was that I learned that my family has Incan roots. My great grandmother, who I met, didn’t know how to speak Spanish. She just spoke Quechua, which was the Indigenous language of the people in the Andes before Catholicism got there and then made everyone speak Spanish. The Spaniards with Catholicism came in, told them their religion was bad, that they’re devils and that you should speak this language, which is Spanish, not your heathen language. So that whole thing sort of was like, okay, we were something closer to earth before. And I myself in my own therapeutic spiritual journey. Have felt very far away from my own self. So I started to pray in different ways and I started to find gratitude in many different places. Like the Andean sort of spirituality has made me so much– has help me achieve a peace throughout the day that I haven’t been able to in other forms. But I have seen people who follow Catholicism do, but I can see Pachamama everywhere. She talks to me in the way the earth talks to all humans. So I’ve learned and I know it’s super woo woo and I do not look like the type of person that does this, but like I’ll choose to walk home. So that I can absorb her. And if I’m not feeling well, like I will literally hug a tree. Like I will, literally touch a tree and like I’ve just seen that throughout all the cultures in this world, there’s been a common denominator, and it’s the Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break and when we come back, more Hyphenación.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like any good Catholic boy growing up in the Texas, Mexico border, uh, my family and I raised money so that way I could go to world youth day back in 2005. It is a time where you sent essentially millions of children to a specific place in the world for a pilgrimage. And it ends with a papal mass. So my family and I are fucking selling like chicken fajita plates in order to raise enough money to send me to Germany so I can go see Pope Benedict in Cologne Germany now 20 years ago. And I distinctly remember that part of this pilgrimage is we had to go to confession and because at the time I already knew I was gay had not really told many folks in my life I thought I needed to confess it that I needed to confess to this stranger priest that I was living with this truth. And when I go up to this priest, again, somebody whose name, face, I could not even describe to you, I remember sitting and saying, as I’m listing out my sins, that I was gay. And he looked at me and he said, you don’t need to say that here. And not that it was a part of him saying like, don’t mention this in church, it was… This is not to be included in the list of things that you have to ask for forgiveness for. And that stuck with me all these years later in so much so that I never felt one, that I had to confess that I was gay ever again, or two, that I ever needed to hide the fact that Diosito made a choice for me to be gay and I could live as openly and proudly as I wanted to as a Catholic person who also was of a queer experience. So I want to start with you Hoja about recognizing if your queerness could coexist with your beliefs or if there was a bit of tension that you had to work through\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I don’t think there was a ton of tension for me personally. I kind of like, as I mentioned, my mom was meditating in brass pyramids when I was growing up. So she sort of was a very pragmatic woman. I didn’t think that she was ever gonna have a real problem with me being a lesbian or me being gay. And so I guess the thing for me was really like my grandparents. I feel like I came out to, uh, I sort of actually tested the waters first with my grandma and I was like, wouldn’t it be crazy if, how crazy would it be if, um, what would be crazy if I was a lesbian or like was gay or something? But um, but I definitely was testing the waters. A\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd I remember her kind of saying like… Her first word of course sounded like, ew, you know? And it was such a throwaway little line, but it really kind of sets you back a little bit whenever you test the waters and it doesn’t go that well, you now? And my mom for so many years was like, don’t tell her, just, you, it’s gonna kill her. I don’t know why they always think that coming out is gonna kill the old people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First response most people have is like, No, please, we want her to live a healthy life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003ci> \u003c/i>Why wouldn’t she? Why wouldn’ she? She gets to know her grand person a lot better by just like knowing who they are. And I finally did come out to my grandma and I think it was a very sort of like soft okayness. I think that they really care for me and they don’t want to alienate me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She really had to make a choice. She kind of had to choose to have me for these small moments or to really kind of not know me And I’m really glad she chose the way that she chose\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it’s so beautiful. Luis, is there something as you’re now embarking on this this form of spirituality this Andean spirituality that you’ve talked about praying to the earth And praying to to the things around you Is it easy to see your queerness in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think because of the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Catholic, sort of marriage between this discipline Catholicism and machismo in the very toxic way from like our Latine communities. Like I never, I never entertained like coming out. I was just like, oh, this is just like something that’s in me that I don’t necessarily like respond to much. So I was, I was like an absolute no because the men in my family wouldn’t accept me. My friends wouldn’t except me. Girls would look at me wrong. Like everything was, everything was bad. T\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hen I came into my queerness and I came out as bisexual to my friends and to other people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, yeah, with this Andean spirituality, like there’s no judgment on me and what I like or feel or attract to. There’s only judgment on what I do to the earth. How am I behaving to my fellow person that came out of, you know, Lago Titicaca, right? Like we came out as clay figures out of this pond, This lake in Peru, so it’s like, that is more what I am judged on, right? Like, than through my sexuality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I have a question for either of you. But like, do you remember a time where religion served you, like Catholicism or that initial sort of like foray into it was, made you feel something?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was something positive or something negative? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, something positive, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like the thing I will say and, uh, it’s funny cause I’m wearing my rainbow wristband today, is for about six or seven years, I was a part of a gay Catholic church group in New York city and there was something so beautiful about being able to during the sign of peace, like hug other men, other gay men, and give them like the little kiss on the side of the cheek as part of the offering of peace. And I would never be able to do that in my hometown. Or in most other churches in the United States, well, pretty much in the world. So I feel like that really reminded me that community in church, community with God, especially with other people who share this identity is part of that magic you were talking about a little bit earlier. So I’ll say that. That’s probably my positive interaction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My positive interaction is gold jewelry. That shit was lit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, dawg. The gold cross is like, every time you did something, first communion, I got my first gold cross, and I was like, whoa, this is lit. I’m going to wear it everywhere. Especially for Latinos, I don’t know, that gold jewelry thing is almost like, oh, shit, I’m out here now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say the most meaningful positive thing that I’ve had with that is becoming my little cousin’s Godfather. I was like, this, I was just like, I do, I feel him. He’s in the room. You know what I mean? Like he’s like giving me, he’s giving me the opportunity to be a father figure. Again, I have a lot to do with like my absent father, like with my traumas and everything. So like, I was this is incredible.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">even though I don’ believe in the practice that we’re doing here, I believe in You and I accept this responsibility through Your hands. I felt very divinely charged. I was like, OK, this is my commitment and I love that there’s a word for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino is a very gay term padrino. It’s like yeah, it’s like it’s adding sort of like a little flair at the end of body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love the little hands, it’s like, how did he know I am? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, Hoja, do you have a positive moment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, in\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Venezuela, we have a big mix of like santeria and Catholicism and those things really kind of weave interchangeably. And so we have lot of really amazing like female figures as kind of heads of church,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and they really take this sort of almost like God-like aspects to themselves. We\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have La Virgen de Coromoto, de Chiquinquirá, La Virgain Maria, but we also have this woman called Maria Leonza. And Maria Leonza is this very like muscular, gorgeous, like almost like witch figure that is like mainstream in Venezuela. And I just remember her being the first woman that I ever saw that wasn’t like thin, that wasn’ frail, that wasn’t white. And so to me, it was kind of like queerness in her. I saw a lot of like otherness in her that I really identified with. And Maria Leónza has always been something that like accompanies me in my life now.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this last question, which is \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to see if you have a an image in your head when you think of the word God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, this is just the first thing that came to mind, but I think I see myself alone. I see my self like on a bench and I’m fed, I’m not thirsty, I don’t have any need that needs to be fulfilled. And there’s beautiful weather and I feel the breeze on my face and in my hair and I’m breathing deeply and I don’t even have to meditate on purpose. I don’ have to think on purpose, I don’t have to not think on the purpose. I think it’s just like when I’m being. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I have a lot of those moments in my life where I get to just… Just kind of be. I would say that’s the image that comes to mind for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is so beautiful. I love that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">God, I want to copy that so bad, there’s so much better than what I was thinking. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What were you thinking Luis?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you said, what does God look like? And then I was like, I just, I don’t know. The sun came into my mind. Cause like, again, that’s like my, like the Andean thing. Cause it gives life to so much. But then I’m like, all right, what would it be? So I’m, like, and then, and I was like, oh, black trans Jesus. That’s, that, that what he looks like\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and she’s fabulous and she can vogue. But then I was like, no, come on, what is it? And I came down to like a voice, just like the voice in my head, not the bad voice, not that one, but the voice that like my intuition, I guess, the voice that sends the signal to my stomach to go for something, even though I’m nervous about it. The voice that says the signal to my legs to get myself out of a situation because it just doesn’t feel right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like that holds the mirror up to me in certain situations. And like, is this, how do you want to act in this situation? Like, you know what you want to be in the example you want to be, is how that person would act? It’s the voice in my head. It’s, it’s the intuition that guides me without me asking for it. But I think that’s what God is, God’s a voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I will say I, one thing that I appreciate that somebody told me, especially in this, um, gay Catholic group that I was a part of is that God’s pronoun is God. And so this understanding that there’s a gender to him, her, they, that it’s just God and you have to appreciate God. And for me, I appreciate it. And for me I see God, you know, those hugs that you give people when you either, you haven’t seen them in a very long time, or you realize like, my God, I have so much love for you. Those like intense bear hugs. I feel like that is such a manifestation of God and God’s love and like being able to transfer whatever that energy is into an interaction with another person. I’m getting chills now just thinking about it. It’s just like, there’s something so beautiful about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If I could, I would give you both one of those hugs right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’d sniff you both. I’d get in there. I take a big noseful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll squeeze, squeeze real tight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, this has been such a fantastic conversation, not only about religion and queerness, but just being around two people who I love and admire so much and really make me think about my faith. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even though I might not look like the same one from catechism class, it’s still all an act of love. So. I cannot thank you enough for joining me for today’s call. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. And as my mom would say: Que dios me los bendigan, me los ampare, que los angelos reconozcan tu camino y iluminan cada uno de tus pasos. Every time I leave the house, baby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Con Dios\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>Well, I do want to let our listeners know that if you want to follow any one of my guests, just go to our show notes, all of their information where you can see them on social, where you could possibly see them live, all that will be there. And if you want to send us either your own experience with religion or a topic you’d like to have us cover on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. But until then, go in peace.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios production. It’s produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer, and KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hyphenación team is supported by our audience engagement producer Maha Sanad; podcast operations intern Alana Walker; podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger; video operations manager Vivian Morales; and our Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Chris Egusa, Martina Castro, Paulina Velasco and Megan Tan for their development support.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While the world anticipates the changes that a new pope will bring to the Catholic church, fewer Latinos in the U.S. actually identify with Catholicism today. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares discusses the question, “Is God still relevant to us?” with guests Hoja Lopez and Luis Galilei.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8100497037&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/Z61jGsi2lp0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/Z61jGsi2lp0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoja Lopez (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/hojalopez?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hojalopez.com/about\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Luis Galilei (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/incapapi/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Y’all, the Walter Mercado candles WORKED. We have a new pope!! Which still feels a little weird to say. Que en paz descanse Papa Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on May 8th, the papal conclave elected Cardinal Robert Prevost as the Catholic Church’s new leader. And not only is the new Pope Leo the Fourteenth our first-ever American pontiff, he’s also worked as missionary and bishop from Peru for many years. So he’s Latino-adjacent, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now it’s still too soon to say what his papacy will bring, but early responses have seemed positive. And I’m just talking about my own personal text threads. Because did y’all doubt for a second that my family and I are HELLA Catholic? The Mexican culture I grew up with is practically synonymous with Catholicism! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I know that’s not the case for everyone. Because as time passes and society pushes forward, younger generations are identifying weaknesses within organized religion. Like the Catholic church still officially believes that queer folks like me, and specifically transgender people, must routinely apologize for our supposed “sinful” existence – which, no thank you. It also refuses to let women become clergy or assume positions of power. And don’t get me started on the ongoing abuse scandal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some will say that Christian institutions are hurting God’s public image, so much so that it’s pushing people away. Others might say that organized religion just isn’t relevant anymore. So, put simply – who or what do we believe in these days?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorje Olivares, and I’m eager to ask this question. Is God still relevant to us? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> So joining me today are two people with very different relationships to religion than myself, but we all grew up Catholic. And since we grew up catholic, I’m dying to figure out the last time they went to church. So joining us first is Hoja Lopez, a comedian and writer who pretty much spent her entire academic career in Venezuela going to Catholic school, which all the power to you. And now identifies as, like a spiritually fluid person. So, Hoja, thank you for joining us. And secondly, when was the last time you found yourself in church?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have truly stumped me with this. I was trying to rock my brain. I think the last time I went, I went to a very fancy white lady and man wedding, um, in New Orleans. And there was, uh, it was like one of those grand ones that has like a giant organ in the back and like sort of expansive ceilings. And I’ll tell you what, the Catholics, we really do churches, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was probably like 2017. I stood outside of a church two years ago waiting for my mom to come out. And my mom was sort of like beckoning me in. And I said, I’m good, I’ll stay out here. I’ll wait for you. But that, yeah, there’s something about a church, the grander it is. I don’t know if they’re trying to maybe bamboozle you a little bit to feel the sort of grandiosity of God, the bigger the church is, but um there is something about like a beautiful stained glass that makes you feel like there’s something bigger going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s a chorus of angels just singing bringing you inside its doors, Sister Act style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">100% \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not sure if he’s a Sister Act fan but excited to welcome Luis Galilei, who is an actor, filmmaker, and a performer who grew up Catholic, but pretty early on rejected a lot of its teachings, is now very much a follower of Andean spirituality. And so I’m curious for you, Luis, when was the last time you were inside of a church? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I had to look it up because I wanted to put some cultural context here. The last time I was in a church, Teach me How to Dougie drop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whoa. Whoa, OK. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2010 baby when I was 15, dawg. That’s the last time I stepped in there \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll just chime in and say that for me, it was \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Saturday before Easter this year, before Pope Francis left us, it must have, I must have known, my body was drawing me to church in order to give my tocayo one last hurrah. Well, thank you so much for joining me today to have this conversation about religion. So there is this notion that family is the Genesis of our understanding. Oh my God, Genesis, look at what I did there, uh of our understanding of religion. So Hoja, could you talk about w hat your family’s association with religion was, especially maybe Catholicism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, so I grew up with a very religious grandma and great grandma. There were people who were like waking up at 5 a.m. Every day rosary, like they would do the little like, like the whip yourself on your thigh stuff, like really hardcore Opus Dei crazy shit. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so my mom was really like kind of the first rebel of the family. I feel like there’s always a rebel. So I got to be a second generation rebel. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">his is just reminding me. I was, uh, I recently had this thing, recently, a couple of years ago– I called my mom and I was like, “Mom, I remember you in a copper pyramid in the middle of the living room,” and my mom’s like, “Ay si mija, I was just praying. I was meditating in the middle of the copper pyramid.” This woman is so not Catholic anymore that she had my stepdad build her a copper that she would sit in. And she would meditate because my mom’s very like woo-woo now. So now it’s a real kind of like combination for her of coming back to Catholicism as an older woman, but still holding like this very broad set of beliefs. But yeah, for her it’s real mix. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">umm hmm, I see that\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Luis, who would you say is the most religious person in your family when you think about religion, like at a Catholic level, Christian level, this like church going figure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I never had someone in my family that was like a very much a church going figure. For me, like the Catholicism was just like,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it was a part of our upbringing, it was a part of our life. Everything, everything had to do with it, except for going to church.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh interesting\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>Once I started to become of age I guess like my mom started to get like really enthused with getting me in Sunday school classes and working on my first communion like all all my family has done all the like communion and confirmation thing and that’s where it stopped and then like sometimes they go to church very like now that they’re older they go because I think they’re starting to feel their mortality So they’re like, let’s let me pray to something bigger and I’m like, oh, it’s very interesting how you guys go now Uh, God’s been watching the whole time, girl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did y’all do catechism school? Like you went through the full, I call it like a prep course, LSAT, but except for more like, what, eight years old. I imagine it’s like very similar to like, um, like the studying that you have to do for your bat mitzvah. Like you have learn so many things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, the fact that in catechism that I acted out the prodigal son parable at least five times in my childhood. Like I was the son that came back and was like, my son, you’ve been gone for so long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, but yeah, we would do it, we would have class right before mass. So it was like a three hour extravaganza \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So long!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I just made a realization on why I don’t fuck with Catholicism just now b\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ecause you were talking about acting out that thing and like you were the son and like, I didn’t grow up with my dad. Like my dad was out of my life and he chose to be out of life. And like this whole religion is about somebody’s son. And I’m like, fuck that guy. Where is he at? Oh, dang. I don’t know if that’s like real, but like maybe I was like, whoa, I feel a little like, I felt like a little vulnerable right there when you said that. And I was, like, wait, I wonder if as a little kid, like I was just like this whole son father thing, like really just, I didn’t believe in it because it wasn’t granted for me. So I was. Why? I don’t understand this. And, I was I questioned it from the get \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you have this sort of like the bug in the back of your head because I didn’t have that I, I wasn’t like a kid that like knew how to beat to the rhythm of my own drum I was such a little follower as a kid. The only reason that I like um That I went to catechism school really was I really thought it was all real like and I wasn’t really into the judgment. I liked the magic of it. I like the stories of it like I liked this sort In some way, I didn’t really have like a super present dad in my life either. But there were a lot of other stories that I really sort of like identified with. And I loved all the virgins crying blood, the drama, the DRAMA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a very dramatic religion. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I love that Luis, you know, when I, when they introduced you, we talked about Andean spiritual beliefs, that that’s more of where you’re headed in. Can you explain what that that means for folks who are just learning about this for the first time? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>E\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">s\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">sentially it’s praying to the earth. Pachamama is the earth then we have Inti, which is the sun god, the mammakia, which is the moon. And there’s many different Quechua names for the different aspects of Earth that you prayed to I guess how I got into it was that I learned that my family has Incan roots. My great grandmother, who I met, didn’t know how to speak Spanish. She just spoke Quechua, which was the Indigenous language of the people in the Andes before Catholicism got there and then made everyone speak Spanish. The Spaniards with Catholicism came in, told them their religion was bad, that they’re devils and that you should speak this language, which is Spanish, not your heathen language. So that whole thing sort of was like, okay, we were something closer to earth before. And I myself in my own therapeutic spiritual journey. Have felt very far away from my own self. So I started to pray in different ways and I started to find gratitude in many different places. Like the Andean sort of spirituality has made me so much– has help me achieve a peace throughout the day that I haven’t been able to in other forms. But I have seen people who follow Catholicism do, but I can see Pachamama everywhere. She talks to me in the way the earth talks to all humans. So I’ve learned and I know it’s super woo woo and I do not look like the type of person that does this, but like I’ll choose to walk home. So that I can absorb her. And if I’m not feeling well, like I will literally hug a tree. Like I will, literally touch a tree and like I’ve just seen that throughout all the cultures in this world, there’s been a common denominator, and it’s the Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break and when we come back, more Hyphenación.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like any good Catholic boy growing up in the Texas, Mexico border, uh, my family and I raised money so that way I could go to world youth day back in 2005. It is a time where you sent essentially millions of children to a specific place in the world for a pilgrimage. And it ends with a papal mass. So my family and I are fucking selling like chicken fajita plates in order to raise enough money to send me to Germany so I can go see Pope Benedict in Cologne Germany now 20 years ago. And I distinctly remember that part of this pilgrimage is we had to go to confession and because at the time I already knew I was gay had not really told many folks in my life I thought I needed to confess it that I needed to confess to this stranger priest that I was living with this truth. And when I go up to this priest, again, somebody whose name, face, I could not even describe to you, I remember sitting and saying, as I’m listing out my sins, that I was gay. And he looked at me and he said, you don’t need to say that here. And not that it was a part of him saying like, don’t mention this in church, it was… This is not to be included in the list of things that you have to ask for forgiveness for. And that stuck with me all these years later in so much so that I never felt one, that I had to confess that I was gay ever again, or two, that I ever needed to hide the fact that Diosito made a choice for me to be gay and I could live as openly and proudly as I wanted to as a Catholic person who also was of a queer experience. So I want to start with you Hoja about recognizing if your queerness could coexist with your beliefs or if there was a bit of tension that you had to work through\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I don’t think there was a ton of tension for me personally. I kind of like, as I mentioned, my mom was meditating in brass pyramids when I was growing up. So she sort of was a very pragmatic woman. I didn’t think that she was ever gonna have a real problem with me being a lesbian or me being gay. And so I guess the thing for me was really like my grandparents. I feel like I came out to, uh, I sort of actually tested the waters first with my grandma and I was like, wouldn’t it be crazy if, how crazy would it be if, um, what would be crazy if I was a lesbian or like was gay or something? But um, but I definitely was testing the waters. A\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd I remember her kind of saying like… Her first word of course sounded like, ew, you know? And it was such a throwaway little line, but it really kind of sets you back a little bit whenever you test the waters and it doesn’t go that well, you now? And my mom for so many years was like, don’t tell her, just, you, it’s gonna kill her. I don’t know why they always think that coming out is gonna kill the old people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First response most people have is like, No, please, we want her to live a healthy life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003ci> \u003c/i>Why wouldn’t she? Why wouldn’ she? She gets to know her grand person a lot better by just like knowing who they are. And I finally did come out to my grandma and I think it was a very sort of like soft okayness. I think that they really care for me and they don’t want to alienate me. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She really had to make a choice. She kind of had to choose to have me for these small moments or to really kind of not know me And I’m really glad she chose the way that she chose\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it’s so beautiful. Luis, is there something as you’re now embarking on this this form of spirituality this Andean spirituality that you’ve talked about praying to the earth And praying to to the things around you Is it easy to see your queerness in that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think because of the\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Catholic, sort of marriage between this discipline Catholicism and machismo in the very toxic way from like our Latine communities. Like I never, I never entertained like coming out. I was just like, oh, this is just like something that’s in me that I don’t necessarily like respond to much. So I was, I was like an absolute no because the men in my family wouldn’t accept me. My friends wouldn’t except me. Girls would look at me wrong. Like everything was, everything was bad. T\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hen I came into my queerness and I came out as bisexual to my friends and to other people. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, yeah, with this Andean spirituality, like there’s no judgment on me and what I like or feel or attract to. There’s only judgment on what I do to the earth. How am I behaving to my fellow person that came out of, you know, Lago Titicaca, right? Like we came out as clay figures out of this pond, This lake in Peru, so it’s like, that is more what I am judged on, right? Like, than through my sexuality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I have a question for either of you. But like, do you remember a time where religion served you, like Catholicism or that initial sort of like foray into it was, made you feel something?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was something positive or something negative? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, something positive, yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like the thing I will say and, uh, it’s funny cause I’m wearing my rainbow wristband today, is for about six or seven years, I was a part of a gay Catholic church group in New York city and there was something so beautiful about being able to during the sign of peace, like hug other men, other gay men, and give them like the little kiss on the side of the cheek as part of the offering of peace. And I would never be able to do that in my hometown. Or in most other churches in the United States, well, pretty much in the world. So I feel like that really reminded me that community in church, community with God, especially with other people who share this identity is part of that magic you were talking about a little bit earlier. So I’ll say that. That’s probably my positive interaction. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My positive interaction is gold jewelry. That shit was lit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, dawg. The gold cross is like, every time you did something, first communion, I got my first gold cross, and I was like, whoa, this is lit. I’m going to wear it everywhere. Especially for Latinos, I don’t know, that gold jewelry thing is almost like, oh, shit, I’m out here now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say the most meaningful positive thing that I’ve had with that is becoming my little cousin’s Godfather. I was like, this, I was just like, I do, I feel him. He’s in the room. You know what I mean? Like he’s like giving me, he’s giving me the opportunity to be a father figure. Again, I have a lot to do with like my absent father, like with my traumas and everything. So like, I was this is incredible.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">even though I don’ believe in the practice that we’re doing here, I believe in You and I accept this responsibility through Your hands. I felt very divinely charged. I was like, OK, this is my commitment and I love that there’s a word for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino is a very gay term padrino. It’s like yeah, it’s like it’s adding sort of like a little flair at the end of body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love the little hands, it’s like, how did he know I am? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Padrino \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, Hoja, do you have a positive moment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, in\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Venezuela, we have a big mix of like santeria and Catholicism and those things really kind of weave interchangeably. And so we have lot of really amazing like female figures as kind of heads of church,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and they really take this sort of almost like God-like aspects to themselves. We\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have La Virgen de Coromoto, de Chiquinquirá, La Virgain Maria, but we also have this woman called Maria Leonza. And Maria Leonza is this very like muscular, gorgeous, like almost like witch figure that is like mainstream in Venezuela. And I just remember her being the first woman that I ever saw that wasn’t like thin, that wasn’ frail, that wasn’t white. And so to me, it was kind of like queerness in her. I saw a lot of like otherness in her that I really identified with. And Maria Leónza has always been something that like accompanies me in my life now.\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this last question, which is \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to see if you have a an image in your head when you think of the word God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, this is just the first thing that came to mind, but I think I see myself alone. I see my self like on a bench and I’m fed, I’m not thirsty, I don’t have any need that needs to be fulfilled. And there’s beautiful weather and I feel the breeze on my face and in my hair and I’m breathing deeply and I don’t even have to meditate on purpose. I don’ have to think on purpose, I don’t have to not think on the purpose. I think it’s just like when I’m being. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I have a lot of those moments in my life where I get to just… Just kind of be. I would say that’s the image that comes to mind for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is so beautiful. I love that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">God, I want to copy that so bad, there’s so much better than what I was thinking. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What were you thinking Luis?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you said, what does God look like? And then I was like, I just, I don’t know. The sun came into my mind. Cause like, again, that’s like my, like the Andean thing. Cause it gives life to so much. But then I’m like, all right, what would it be? So I’m, like, and then, and I was like, oh, black trans Jesus. That’s, that, that what he looks like\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laughter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and she’s fabulous and she can vogue. But then I was like, no, come on, what is it? And I came down to like a voice, just like the voice in my head, not the bad voice, not that one, but the voice that like my intuition, I guess, the voice that sends the signal to my stomach to go for something, even though I’m nervous about it. The voice that says the signal to my legs to get myself out of a situation because it just doesn’t feel right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like that holds the mirror up to me in certain situations. And like, is this, how do you want to act in this situation? Like, you know what you want to be in the example you want to be, is how that person would act? It’s the voice in my head. It’s, it’s the intuition that guides me without me asking for it. But I think that’s what God is, God’s a voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I will say I, one thing that I appreciate that somebody told me, especially in this, um, gay Catholic group that I was a part of is that God’s pronoun is God. And so this understanding that there’s a gender to him, her, they, that it’s just God and you have to appreciate God. And for me, I appreciate it. And for me I see God, you know, those hugs that you give people when you either, you haven’t seen them in a very long time, or you realize like, my God, I have so much love for you. Those like intense bear hugs. I feel like that is such a manifestation of God and God’s love and like being able to transfer whatever that energy is into an interaction with another person. I’m getting chills now just thinking about it. It’s just like, there’s something so beautiful about. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If I could, I would give you both one of those hugs right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’d sniff you both. I’d get in there. I take a big noseful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll squeeze, squeeze real tight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, this has been such a fantastic conversation, not only about religion and queerness, but just being around two people who I love and admire so much and really make me think about my faith. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even though I might not look like the same one from catechism class, it’s still all an act of love. So. I cannot thank you enough for joining me for today’s call. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hoja Lopez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me. And as my mom would say: Que dios me los bendigan, me los ampare, que los angelos reconozcan tu camino y iluminan cada uno de tus pasos. Every time I leave the house, baby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luis Galilei:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Con Dios\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>Well, I do want to let our listeners know that if you want to follow any one of my guests, just go to our show notes, all of their information where you can see them on social, where you could possibly see them live, all that will be there. And if you want to send us either your own experience with religion or a topic you’d like to have us cover on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. But until then, go in peace.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios production. It’s produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer, and KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hyphenación team is supported by our audience engagement producer Maha Sanad; podcast operations intern Alana Walker; podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger; video operations manager Vivian Morales; and our Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Chris Egusa, Martina Castro, Paulina Velasco and Megan Tan for their development support.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "hyphenacion-am-i-a-prude-for-choosing-monogamy",
"title": "Am I a Prude for Choosing Monogamy?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host Xorje Olivares has never been one for sharing, especially when it comes to a lover. This week on Hyphenación, Xorje speaks with Fernanda Fabian and Manuel Betancourt, two seasoned practitioners of non-monogamy, to talk about breaking free from monogamy, their relationships with their Latino parents, and following desires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2996639416&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/bQx1tKELmuI\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fernanda Fabian (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/show/3TpsmC4gNO618CZe0Ou1Fr?si=2a537b3e4c744acb\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polycurious Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/tWXsCwpkPvsAnVxWsVf7cJ7v8X?domain=polycurious.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3ZY7CxklQwf9jRv3IvhZcy77Zp?domain=instagram.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/4QMRCyPmRxs032oRhQiJcxH2z9?domain=tiktok.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/ujVBCzpn0ysxzwqAiKslc9YehK?domain=patreon.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patreon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Manuel Betancourt (\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/757080/hello-stranger-by-manuel-betancourt/\">\u003ci>Hello Stranger\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bmanuel/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://mbetancourtcom.wordpress.com/\">Website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know we’re only just now starting to get to know each other, but there’s something about me you have to know. And believe me, once I tell you, you’re probably going to look at me in a completely different light. Which is a risk I’m willing to take if it means standing in my truth. Ok. Here it goes: I – Xorje Andrés Olivares Urbina – am an aggressive monogamist. I know, right? Y con este cuerpazo? I should be sharing it with everyone who has a thing for chaparritos like me!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But alas, I’ve never been one for sharing…at least not when it comes to my romantic partners. In fact, when I was dating, it was one of the first few questions I would ask: it was like “what do you do for work? Any siblings? What are your concrete thoughts on open relationships and are you ok having sex with me and just me?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay it was never that forward as that, but I was pretty clear upfront with any potential suitor that – I was looking for an exclusive partner. For me, that meant having them as my only love interest, and I theirs. And I want to make sure I specify “love interest” because I absolutely understand that a single person cannot fulfill our every need as adults. That’s what friends, family, coworkers, hobbies are for and I’m not one of those tóxicas. Or am I? But seriously, am I being too rigid in my thinking on this? Should we ALL be breaking free from the prison of monogamy? I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking the question: Are you comfortable sharing your partner with another lover?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación – where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve been really looking forward to today’s conversation because it is such a sexy topic, I felt like we needed to start with a sexy question. And so I’m gonna ask my two guests who are joining me today what they find sexy in another person. Because for me, it is tattoos. If somebody walks in with tattoos right now and like a bonus if they got an ear pierced, then I am just putty in their hands. And yes, do with that imagery what you will. I’m excited to first welcome to the program Fernanda Fabian, who is a relationship coach and the host of the Polycurious podcast, where she facilitates conversations about non-monogamy. Fernanda, thank you so much for joining us today. And I want to ask you, what do you find sexy in another person? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that question. And you know, my answer might surprise you a little bit because I’m not sure everyone feels that way. But one thing that I always find attractive is when someone says that they’re going to therapy. Because that means that they are actually working on themselves. They’re actually introspective. Hopefully that means they might be better communicating or more aware of their issues. And to me, as much as I do care about physical appearance, sometimes just someone who’s working on their stuff and is able to communicate is just a turn-on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love that. Making me think differently about this whole topic. Well, thank you so much for joining us and for providing that answer.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also excited to welcome Manuel Betancourt, who is a culture writer and the author of the new book, Hello Stranger, which talks about the seductive potential of what it means to be with strangers. Manuel, what is something you find sexy in another person? Whether it is a physical trait, personality trait… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was struggling. I was like, do I go with the physical trade? I love me some arms. So a nice bicep is sort of where-that’s my sweet spot. But for me, the thing that really grabs me is confidence. Like if someone can walk into a room and sort of lock eyes with me, and just that’s what turns me into putty. That’s what sort of makes me melt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I’m excited for us to have this chat. And I want us to get into this, especially starting with you Fernanda, about if you could tell us about what your relationship dynamics are and how you started this journey towards what you talk about in your podcast, Polycurious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. So I actually have a very interesting dynamic, which I like to talk about, because I believe that other people might want to consider it. In my case, I am non-monogamous. I’m playing with calling myself poly at this point, because I recently started seeing someone that I’m calling my partner, but that had never happened before. However, my primary partner, who I have been with for almost seven years, is monogamous. So as you can imagine, that’s a very rare situation, rare dynamic, where one person is monogamous and the other person is non-monogamous, especially if the non-monogamous person is the woman. So I’m not an advocate for monogamy or non-monogamy. I just think that people should do whatever works for them. And for me and my partner, that is what works. So that’s why I decided to start the podcast, become a coach and do this work to show other people that it’s possible to do it in a healthy way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Manuel, I like the phrasing that Fernanda used about just what works for you. What currently works for you? What is your relationship dynamic currently?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my current relationship dynamic is, I’m in what people would normally call a throuple. And so there’s three of us, and I met them when they had been together for five years. And so we started sort of hanging out, and it soon was clear that the three of us were sort of operating as a unit, as a romantic unit. And so, we like to say that we’re sort of this closed romantic triangle, but it’s very porous sexually. So we sort of practice, it’s an open relationship. We practice consensual non-monogamy. We’re very open and honest about what we do and what we allow ourselves to do with other people, sometimes with each other, sometimes at different place spaces. And that’s sort of what works for us right now. And that came from after being years monogamous sort of marriage. And after I got divorced, I made a conscious choice of what I realized that I wanted, what I realized that what I was looking for and really wanted in a relationship was a kind of openness. And so I never set out to be like, okay, now I’m going to be part of a throuple or now I am going to be a part of poly relationship or polycule. It’s just, as soon as I open the floodgates in my mind to be, like, I’m gonna be open to any kind of relationship dynamic. That grows organically and that sort of fulfills me romantically, sexually, you know, spiritually in all these different ways, like I’m just going to follow that. And what happened was sort of this, um, the throuple and we’re now going on. It’s going to be almost three years now. And Thats where I’m at right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to ask Manuel, if there was any hesitation on your part to joining some relationship dynamic. They already knew how to talk to each other. They already know how to fight with one another. They already how to, like, what their body language was with one another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">absolutely. And in this, the thing that helped me was that I was in therapy. The thing that I talked about during those first few weeks in therapy was like, I don’t know if I can do this. And like, I needed someone to help me, guide me through and to sort of feel, because it felt like I wasn’t just joining a relationship. It was like I was joining a kind of partnership. They had been together for a while, they lived together, they had this like life together. Like, calibrating that took like a year, just sort of trying to find our bearings so that we would all feel comfortable. Because there was also hesitation on their part, Like they were, this was something that was established and they were also not looking for a third, they were not looking to sort of change. Their dynamic, a lot of stuff they had sort of down pat. And I then became the thing that illuminated a lot of stuff about their relationship and sort of the thing that my therapist at the time kept saying was like, you know, if you found yourself in this situation it’s because there was room for you in the relationship and that they’re making room for that being sort of a very active choice that the three of us were making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like a lot of this comes down to communication. Each of you have talked a little bit about that. And I want to go to you Fernanda and ask about what that communication looked like with your partner where you’ve brought up this notion of maybe we should try something a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course, I actually brought it up the second day we met, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, okay,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, by the time I met Seth, we actually met at Burning Man. So I think that also contributed to us being like super open and honest from the beginning. So, uh, we were both coming from a very like open space and, you know, the second day, the second night we met, we already felt like this was something really special, sometimes that doesn’t last after Burning Man, but in our case it did. So we were just like putting everything on the table. At that point I had friends that were open. I wasn’t non-monogamous in a primary relationship but I was already having friends with benefits that knew about each other and I was already clear that that’s what I wanted. And when I brought it up, he said, you know, I’m open to it and, you know we’ll figure it out. And then about like a month after we met, he was actually living in San Francisco, I was living in New York, and we were visiting each other and at some point he was like, hey, do you want to be my girlfriend? Which I found adorable because I hadn’t been asked that since high school. But I was like really into him, like feeling like this was really right and I just said yes. And then about like 15 minutes later, I was like hold on one second, does this mean that I cannot have sex with other people. Is that what being a girlfriend means? And he was like, yes. And I was like okay, well, that’s fine. I can make that sacrifice. But I could do that because I knew from the beginning that he was open to it down the line. He was very clear. He said, right now I don’t feel ready for that, but I want to give you what you want. I don’t know if I can, but I will try. So let’s go on stages. He’s also an introvert, so he loves his alone time and he loves to stay home. I’m an extrovert. So for him, it’s not like he’s opposed to non-monogamy and obviously he has the option and I hope that one day he finds someone that he wants to explore with, but he just doesn’t feel the need. So, you know, it was a slow process. And at some points, I was like, Oh, can I just, can I do it? Can I just go on the date? Because he’d be like, Okay, you can, You know, you can go on a date with someone, but they, you know… It’s better if they have a partner as well, and it’s better if it’s someone that you knew before you met me, so it’s not as much of a threat. There were important steps, because they gave him the opportunity to get used to that. So obviously, the first time I went to a play party, the first time I went on a date, he was having a difficult time, but he honestly is amazing and never put that jealousy or that like discomfort on me. He did say, okay, I’m feeling a little bit like, I don’t want to be close to you when you come back from dates, for example, because I’m having a hard time. So then we agreed that when I’d come back from a date which like for me was the opposite. I was just like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You want to tell him all the information! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was just like on cloud nine from meeting a new person. And then, you know, interestingly enough, that sexual energy, that new relationship energy, as people call it, actually comes back to my primary relationship. So I’d want to connect, you know, and even if we didn’t have sex, I want to like be close and cuddle. And he’d be like, okay, I need a little bit of more time to reconnect after you come back from a date. So we, it was a lot of trial and error. I always recommend people to do it that way, because if we had just started…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gone off the deep end\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cb> …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">open right away. He might have had a lot of jealousy, insecurity, a lot of difficult emotions, and it would have been a lot more difficult to actually get where we wanted to go because there would have been a lots of missteps and then repair and all of that. Although some people argue that you should start open right away if that’s what you want, which I think if you have experience with non-monogamy, if you both have experiences with non monogamy that can also work potentially, but The way it worked for me was to. Go very slowly, reassess, talk about feelings, and move from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just feel like it might be so hard I can see that like it takes those early conversations, it takes figuring out what the parameters are, figuring out what your boundaries are. And so Manuel was it easy once you started pursuing non- monogamy to be open and honest and transparent about your feelings of like That’s okay with me and that’s not okay with me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it took a while. And the other part was, I was dealing with two people, two people who had gone through that process and had figured it out for themselves. So they knew what worked for one another, what parties they go to, what was allowed and what was not allowed. So by the time I came in, there was like no rules. They were very like, you can do whatever you want. A lot of it was sexual. Like we don’t, romantic and dates, like those are not really things of the three of us partake or are interested. I think also because there’s three of us, so they’re like, there’s just enough, just a scheduling a date between the three of us is hard enough. Like, trying just to like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m free Thursday at 3, but then yeah, I don’t quite know where that fits in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but trying to figure out what I was comfortable with, that maybe the two of them had figured out, worked for them, and then I would be like, oh, actually, like, I get pangs of jealousy, but I don’t want to disrupt what the two them had achieved. So it did took a little bit of a while. It was a little bit of trial and error and I think the thing I kept coming back to is like, it’s okay to be jealous. It’s not okay to make that jealousy that someone else’s problem, right? Like, I can have those feelings, I can have feelings of fear, of anxiety, of inadequacy, of jealousy, like, but learning to not lead with those and learning not to act on those instinctively. Took a while– What does this mean? Is it because I’m insecure? Is it because I need more cuddling? Is it because I need more reassurance? Is it because I felt like you were choosing someone else over me? Uh and it took a while to sort of learn the language. I feel like it still happens to us like sometimes none of this is perfect. Uh none of it is like you you know you don’t get like a diploma and say now, you’re great at being poly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s sort of every single time is something different. And I have gotten better at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share a quick story. My partner and I just recently got engaged and it was a fun little like, oh my God, we did it moment. But it was funny because at least two different people after we announced our engagement came up to us and asked us if this was now the moment we were gonna try to be in an open relationship. And I thought it was interesting because it kind of came almost as soon as they said, congratulations. I was like, oh, okay, now you’re making me think at a time where I didn’t know we were going to. Confronted with this question. But I will say that especially as a queer person, as a cisgender gay man, I feel like I receive a lot of judgment because of my decision to be monogamous and because I am pursuing something that seems to feel a bit more heteronormative and a bit more traditional. But I do want to focus in on this issue of judgment. And starting with you Fernanda about having to navigate, feeling judged, not just by family, whoever else you encounter, but by people you feel very close with and wanna feel like you have a deep connection to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. Well, I have to be honest. I’ve been very, very lucky. I grew up in a very liberal family, even though we grew up in Mexico. I’m Mexican. My mom’s side of the family is Cuban, very liberal. We’ve always talked about sex and things like that. And yeah, I didn’t really have a hard time in that realm. I also became non monogamous in Brooklyn, which is… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…the epicenter for exploration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The epicenter, exactly, exactly. And have always moved in very liberal circles. Again, the Burning Man community. So I have personally not faced much judgment with close people. However, on social media, I sometimes, especially on TikTok, for some reason on Instagram, I don’t get that much hate, but on TikTok I’ve even had people like recording videos criticizing what I’m doing, especially because… My partner is monogamous and people make an assumption that I’m taking advantage of him. And there’s a lot of layers of feeling like what I’m doing is unethical or something along those lines. I don’t I don’ feel any shame around it, however We’re not fully open. As I mentioned, my partner comes from a religious family. And I understand that their views of marriage and sex are very, very different from mine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what has been difficult for me has been to have to hide. Obviously, now this is my career, right? So I often have to hid a little bit what I’m doing as to not damage those relationships with those people that I really care for. And they care for me a lot. But I know that if they knew. Again, especially because their family member, my partner is monogamous, they would just completely change the way they see me and it would just create a lot of issues which I’m trying to avoid. So that’s been difficult. However, what you said is interesting about the gay community being almost judgmental the other way around, of like, why aren’t you being… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m making that up, Manuel or is that true? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no, I it is a kind of it becomes like a lose lose situation because like if you’re on the one end, they’re like, oh, then you’re clearly just buying into this heteronormative patriarchal traditional assimilationist kind of strategy. And how dare you leave the rest of us radicals behind? Or on the other end, like, you know, you’re breaking all the institutions apart. So how dare you then not leave anything, is nothing sacred? I think for me, what I’ve always come down to is that so long as it’s a choice and it’s a conscious choice that you’re making, like monogamy is not, it’s not a dirty word. I think it’s, oh yeah, to me it’s only, it only becomes badly weaponized when it’s understood to be the default, the norm and therefore the thing that we should all aspire to. So long as we’re all consenting adults and we’re understanding, like the three of us have very different configurations, but all of them seem to be rooted in understanding what each of us want out of the relationship and having open conversations with those we’re with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, are there folks in your family, folks who you are intimately tied to that do or do not know about your relationship dynamic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my entire, I think my entire extended family knows about my relationship. So they know that I’m part of a throuple. And so that’s the extent of what they know about my relationships. I don’t think any of them know about the sort of consensual non-monogamy openness. It’s in my book, but the joy about writing in a language that most of your family does not speak regularly, because all my family is in Columbia. Is that there was a kind of, for my entire adult life, I’ve sort of always bisected my kind of identities with like gayness and queerness exist in English and then families lives or exist in Spanish. It’s this weird associating mechanism but I’ve, sort of, have needed to survive and grapple with and sort of it has helped me. But it is also. Helped keep those boundaries very separate. But like my mom has met my, my boyfriends, we spent holidays together with my brother and siblings and sort of they understand that like that the three of us are a unit. It did feel like a second coming out, like when I had to explain it, when I have to like tell my mom but she was kind of fantastic about it.Uh, every time she’s like, how are the boys doing? What, like she’s very much involved in that aspect of it, Less so in the like We all go to play parties or I have like anonymous sex during the day. But that’s a nice boundary that I feel comfortable maintaining with my family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, right. Because one thing is to be open about the arrangement. Another thing is for them to read your book, or for example, in my case to listen to my podcast. And I have a similar situation where my mom’s side of the family doesn’t speak English. So that well, my mom and a couple of members, so that that helps. And recently, she was like, Oh, I think I can figure out how to translate your podcast. And I’m like, No, no, no. Please do not do that. Let’s keep that separate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s put it to the people who do know in your life, Fernanda, is there a misconception they have that you had to clear up right away to make sure that they understood you fully and the choices you made fully. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my mom, as open as she has been, had a lot of questions and concerns at first. Her immediate thought was, she doesn’t love Seth or Seth doesn’t love her. Also, she, she adores Seth. And, you know, they have this really cute relationship because Seth doesn’t speak much Spanish either, but they somehow they communicate, they love each other. It’s wonderful. Um, and she was really afraid that I would be, uh, screwing our relationship up because I was dating other people. So it took a few months and even today, sometimes if I’m talking to my mom about another partner of mine, which I do sometimes, and, she knows that said this around, she’ll be like, shh, shhh, Fernanda, shut up. And I’m like, mom, first of all, we’re speaking Spanish. Second of all said knows about this. There’s, there’s nothing, there is nothing to hide. So there’s still that like impulse. But she’s actually come around and she’s seen how beautiful of a relationship set and I have, and she has become a little bit like of an advocate for at least considering the option, which I find amazing given that a lot of people do not have that relationship with their moms. But what I tell people is, if you really feel like there won’t be an open line of communication and it will just cause judgment and a separation with a family member you still want to be close to, then no need to disclose it. But if you think that there might be a little bit of openness, you might be surprised. You just need to kind of introduce it bit by bit and explain the reasons why this is important to you, why you do this. And you might find that people are more open to it than you thought. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this one question, starting with you Fernanda. What is one thing that you’ve learned about yourself in pursuing non-monogamy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think I have already shared a little bit about this, but that I thrive through connection and through connecting with other people and that that for me is a way of growing personally. So as much as I’m working on finding validation within myself, being my best friend and like working on that relationship with myself too, when I interact with new partners and new people, they do bring out new parts of myself that I wasn’t. Really aware of. So I think, yeah, for me it has to do with how I see life and how connection is kind of the vehicle that I’m taking to grow as a person and as an individual. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a book to recommend to you for now because my entire book is all about like strangers allow ourselves to see ourselves differently, right, like they give us insights into ourselves that we didn’t know we had. I think the thing that I’ve learned the most about well-exploring non-monogamy and the thing I’ve taught myself is that my libido and my desires are not challenges I think for the longest time I constantly thought of myself as needing to reign in my desires, reigning my libido, like just really corral it into something that is understandable, that is legible, that is controllable, that I can handle and show other people. And I think the thing that I’ve not realized, like I’ve actually worked hard to sort of rewire is that acting on them and acting on them ethically and honestly a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd with the support and encouragement of my Partners.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s kind of beauty in them. There is a kind of beauty in being able to sort of follow your bliss and your desire. And to really let that be a really fun way of interacting with the world and with other people and with strangers and with known people and that it’s not about yeah, controlling. I think for the for the longest time, I felt like my desires needed to be sort of caged and domesticated. And instead of just like not let them run wild, but actually allowing myself to follow through them and see where they lead me. And they’ve led into a lot of really fun different places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To use the language from the intro, just like break free, like Ariana Grande ourselves out of this like prison and just do what we feel is right. Well, I wanna thank each of you for such a lovely informative conversation, especially again, coming from my particular POV, it’s so wonderful to hear other people, especially other Latinos talk about relationships, talk about love and sex, and really get me to change some of these long-held beliefs I had. So I really appreciate your time and you being here with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you Xorge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I do want to remind our listeners that you can follow our guests Fernanda has a podcast the poly curious podcast Manuel has a couple books including hello stranger Which is now available all of that information will be in our show notes and also where you can find each of them on social Media and if want to send us an email just email us at HYP at kqed.org Especially if you wanna share your non monogamy experiences, but until then, hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Host Xorje Olivares has never been one for sharing, especially when it comes to a lover. This week on Hyphenación, Xorje speaks with Fernanda Fabian and Manuel Betancourt, two seasoned practitioners of non-monogamy, to talk about breaking free from monogamy, their relationships with their Latino parents, and following desires.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2996639416&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/bQx1tKELmuI'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/bQx1tKELmuI'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Guests\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fernanda Fabian (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/show/3TpsmC4gNO618CZe0Ou1Fr?si=2a537b3e4c744acb\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Polycurious Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/tWXsCwpkPvsAnVxWsVf7cJ7v8X?domain=polycurious.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Website\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">,\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/3ZY7CxklQwf9jRv3IvhZcy77Zp?domain=instagram.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/4QMRCyPmRxs032oRhQiJcxH2z9?domain=tiktok.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tiktok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/ujVBCzpn0ysxzwqAiKslc9YehK?domain=patreon.com\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patreon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Manuel Betancourt (\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/757080/hello-stranger-by-manuel-betancourt/\">\u003ci>Hello Stranger\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bmanuel/?hl=en\">Instagram\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://mbetancourtcom.wordpress.com/\">Website\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know we’re only just now starting to get to know each other, but there’s something about me you have to know. And believe me, once I tell you, you’re probably going to look at me in a completely different light. Which is a risk I’m willing to take if it means standing in my truth. Ok. Here it goes: I – Xorje Andrés Olivares Urbina – am an aggressive monogamist. I know, right? Y con este cuerpazo? I should be sharing it with everyone who has a thing for chaparritos like me!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But alas, I’ve never been one for sharing…at least not when it comes to my romantic partners. In fact, when I was dating, it was one of the first few questions I would ask: it was like “what do you do for work? Any siblings? What are your concrete thoughts on open relationships and are you ok having sex with me and just me?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay it was never that forward as that, but I was pretty clear upfront with any potential suitor that – I was looking for an exclusive partner. For me, that meant having them as my only love interest, and I theirs. And I want to make sure I specify “love interest” because I absolutely understand that a single person cannot fulfill our every need as adults. That’s what friends, family, coworkers, hobbies are for and I’m not one of those tóxicas. Or am I? But seriously, am I being too rigid in my thinking on this? Should we ALL be breaking free from the prison of monogamy? I’m Xorje Olivares, and today I’m asking the question: Are you comfortable sharing your partner with another lover?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Hyphenación – where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve been really looking forward to today’s conversation because it is such a sexy topic, I felt like we needed to start with a sexy question. And so I’m gonna ask my two guests who are joining me today what they find sexy in another person. Because for me, it is tattoos. If somebody walks in with tattoos right now and like a bonus if they got an ear pierced, then I am just putty in their hands. And yes, do with that imagery what you will. I’m excited to first welcome to the program Fernanda Fabian, who is a relationship coach and the host of the Polycurious podcast, where she facilitates conversations about non-monogamy. Fernanda, thank you so much for joining us today. And I want to ask you, what do you find sexy in another person? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that question. And you know, my answer might surprise you a little bit because I’m not sure everyone feels that way. But one thing that I always find attractive is when someone says that they’re going to therapy. Because that means that they are actually working on themselves. They’re actually introspective. Hopefully that means they might be better communicating or more aware of their issues. And to me, as much as I do care about physical appearance, sometimes just someone who’s working on their stuff and is able to communicate is just a turn-on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Love that. Making me think differently about this whole topic. Well, thank you so much for joining us and for providing that answer.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also excited to welcome Manuel Betancourt, who is a culture writer and the author of the new book, Hello Stranger, which talks about the seductive potential of what it means to be with strangers. Manuel, what is something you find sexy in another person? Whether it is a physical trait, personality trait… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was struggling. I was like, do I go with the physical trade? I love me some arms. So a nice bicep is sort of where-that’s my sweet spot. But for me, the thing that really grabs me is confidence. Like if someone can walk into a room and sort of lock eyes with me, and just that’s what turns me into putty. That’s what sort of makes me melt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I’m excited for us to have this chat. And I want us to get into this, especially starting with you Fernanda, about if you could tell us about what your relationship dynamics are and how you started this journey towards what you talk about in your podcast, Polycurious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. So I actually have a very interesting dynamic, which I like to talk about, because I believe that other people might want to consider it. In my case, I am non-monogamous. I’m playing with calling myself poly at this point, because I recently started seeing someone that I’m calling my partner, but that had never happened before. However, my primary partner, who I have been with for almost seven years, is monogamous. So as you can imagine, that’s a very rare situation, rare dynamic, where one person is monogamous and the other person is non-monogamous, especially if the non-monogamous person is the woman. So I’m not an advocate for monogamy or non-monogamy. I just think that people should do whatever works for them. And for me and my partner, that is what works. So that’s why I decided to start the podcast, become a coach and do this work to show other people that it’s possible to do it in a healthy way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Manuel, I like the phrasing that Fernanda used about just what works for you. What currently works for you? What is your relationship dynamic currently?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my current relationship dynamic is, I’m in what people would normally call a throuple. And so there’s three of us, and I met them when they had been together for five years. And so we started sort of hanging out, and it soon was clear that the three of us were sort of operating as a unit, as a romantic unit. And so, we like to say that we’re sort of this closed romantic triangle, but it’s very porous sexually. So we sort of practice, it’s an open relationship. We practice consensual non-monogamy. We’re very open and honest about what we do and what we allow ourselves to do with other people, sometimes with each other, sometimes at different place spaces. And that’s sort of what works for us right now. And that came from after being years monogamous sort of marriage. And after I got divorced, I made a conscious choice of what I realized that I wanted, what I realized that what I was looking for and really wanted in a relationship was a kind of openness. And so I never set out to be like, okay, now I’m going to be part of a throuple or now I am going to be a part of poly relationship or polycule. It’s just, as soon as I open the floodgates in my mind to be, like, I’m gonna be open to any kind of relationship dynamic. That grows organically and that sort of fulfills me romantically, sexually, you know, spiritually in all these different ways, like I’m just going to follow that. And what happened was sort of this, um, the throuple and we’re now going on. It’s going to be almost three years now. And Thats where I’m at right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do want to ask Manuel, if there was any hesitation on your part to joining some relationship dynamic. They already knew how to talk to each other. They already know how to fight with one another. They already how to, like, what their body language was with one another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">absolutely. And in this, the thing that helped me was that I was in therapy. The thing that I talked about during those first few weeks in therapy was like, I don’t know if I can do this. And like, I needed someone to help me, guide me through and to sort of feel, because it felt like I wasn’t just joining a relationship. It was like I was joining a kind of partnership. They had been together for a while, they lived together, they had this like life together. Like, calibrating that took like a year, just sort of trying to find our bearings so that we would all feel comfortable. Because there was also hesitation on their part, Like they were, this was something that was established and they were also not looking for a third, they were not looking to sort of change. Their dynamic, a lot of stuff they had sort of down pat. And I then became the thing that illuminated a lot of stuff about their relationship and sort of the thing that my therapist at the time kept saying was like, you know, if you found yourself in this situation it’s because there was room for you in the relationship and that they’re making room for that being sort of a very active choice that the three of us were making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel like a lot of this comes down to communication. Each of you have talked a little bit about that. And I want to go to you Fernanda and ask about what that communication looked like with your partner where you’ve brought up this notion of maybe we should try something a little different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course, I actually brought it up the second day we met, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, okay,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, by the time I met Seth, we actually met at Burning Man. So I think that also contributed to us being like super open and honest from the beginning. So, uh, we were both coming from a very like open space and, you know, the second day, the second night we met, we already felt like this was something really special, sometimes that doesn’t last after Burning Man, but in our case it did. So we were just like putting everything on the table. At that point I had friends that were open. I wasn’t non-monogamous in a primary relationship but I was already having friends with benefits that knew about each other and I was already clear that that’s what I wanted. And when I brought it up, he said, you know, I’m open to it and, you know we’ll figure it out. And then about like a month after we met, he was actually living in San Francisco, I was living in New York, and we were visiting each other and at some point he was like, hey, do you want to be my girlfriend? Which I found adorable because I hadn’t been asked that since high school. But I was like really into him, like feeling like this was really right and I just said yes. And then about like 15 minutes later, I was like hold on one second, does this mean that I cannot have sex with other people. Is that what being a girlfriend means? And he was like, yes. And I was like okay, well, that’s fine. I can make that sacrifice. But I could do that because I knew from the beginning that he was open to it down the line. He was very clear. He said, right now I don’t feel ready for that, but I want to give you what you want. I don’t know if I can, but I will try. So let’s go on stages. He’s also an introvert, so he loves his alone time and he loves to stay home. I’m an extrovert. So for him, it’s not like he’s opposed to non-monogamy and obviously he has the option and I hope that one day he finds someone that he wants to explore with, but he just doesn’t feel the need. So, you know, it was a slow process. And at some points, I was like, Oh, can I just, can I do it? Can I just go on the date? Because he’d be like, Okay, you can, You know, you can go on a date with someone, but they, you know… It’s better if they have a partner as well, and it’s better if it’s someone that you knew before you met me, so it’s not as much of a threat. There were important steps, because they gave him the opportunity to get used to that. So obviously, the first time I went to a play party, the first time I went on a date, he was having a difficult time, but he honestly is amazing and never put that jealousy or that like discomfort on me. He did say, okay, I’m feeling a little bit like, I don’t want to be close to you when you come back from dates, for example, because I’m having a hard time. So then we agreed that when I’d come back from a date which like for me was the opposite. I was just like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You want to tell him all the information! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I was just like on cloud nine from meeting a new person. And then, you know, interestingly enough, that sexual energy, that new relationship energy, as people call it, actually comes back to my primary relationship. So I’d want to connect, you know, and even if we didn’t have sex, I want to like be close and cuddle. And he’d be like, okay, I need a little bit of more time to reconnect after you come back from a date. So we, it was a lot of trial and error. I always recommend people to do it that way, because if we had just started…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gone off the deep end\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian:\u003c/b> \u003cb> …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">open right away. He might have had a lot of jealousy, insecurity, a lot of difficult emotions, and it would have been a lot more difficult to actually get where we wanted to go because there would have been a lots of missteps and then repair and all of that. Although some people argue that you should start open right away if that’s what you want, which I think if you have experience with non-monogamy, if you both have experiences with non monogamy that can also work potentially, but The way it worked for me was to. Go very slowly, reassess, talk about feelings, and move from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just feel like it might be so hard I can see that like it takes those early conversations, it takes figuring out what the parameters are, figuring out what your boundaries are. And so Manuel was it easy once you started pursuing non- monogamy to be open and honest and transparent about your feelings of like That’s okay with me and that’s not okay with me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it took a while. And the other part was, I was dealing with two people, two people who had gone through that process and had figured it out for themselves. So they knew what worked for one another, what parties they go to, what was allowed and what was not allowed. So by the time I came in, there was like no rules. They were very like, you can do whatever you want. A lot of it was sexual. Like we don’t, romantic and dates, like those are not really things of the three of us partake or are interested. I think also because there’s three of us, so they’re like, there’s just enough, just a scheduling a date between the three of us is hard enough. Like, trying just to like… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m free Thursday at 3, but then yeah, I don’t quite know where that fits in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but trying to figure out what I was comfortable with, that maybe the two of them had figured out, worked for them, and then I would be like, oh, actually, like, I get pangs of jealousy, but I don’t want to disrupt what the two them had achieved. So it did took a little bit of a while. It was a little bit of trial and error and I think the thing I kept coming back to is like, it’s okay to be jealous. It’s not okay to make that jealousy that someone else’s problem, right? Like, I can have those feelings, I can have feelings of fear, of anxiety, of inadequacy, of jealousy, like, but learning to not lead with those and learning not to act on those instinctively. Took a while– What does this mean? Is it because I’m insecure? Is it because I need more cuddling? Is it because I need more reassurance? Is it because I felt like you were choosing someone else over me? Uh and it took a while to sort of learn the language. I feel like it still happens to us like sometimes none of this is perfect. Uh none of it is like you you know you don’t get like a diploma and say now, you’re great at being poly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s sort of every single time is something different. And I have gotten better at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I wanna share a quick story. My partner and I just recently got engaged and it was a fun little like, oh my God, we did it moment. But it was funny because at least two different people after we announced our engagement came up to us and asked us if this was now the moment we were gonna try to be in an open relationship. And I thought it was interesting because it kind of came almost as soon as they said, congratulations. I was like, oh, okay, now you’re making me think at a time where I didn’t know we were going to. Confronted with this question. But I will say that especially as a queer person, as a cisgender gay man, I feel like I receive a lot of judgment because of my decision to be monogamous and because I am pursuing something that seems to feel a bit more heteronormative and a bit more traditional. But I do want to focus in on this issue of judgment. And starting with you Fernanda about having to navigate, feeling judged, not just by family, whoever else you encounter, but by people you feel very close with and wanna feel like you have a deep connection to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, of course. Well, I have to be honest. I’ve been very, very lucky. I grew up in a very liberal family, even though we grew up in Mexico. I’m Mexican. My mom’s side of the family is Cuban, very liberal. We’ve always talked about sex and things like that. And yeah, I didn’t really have a hard time in that realm. I also became non monogamous in Brooklyn, which is… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…the epicenter for exploration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The epicenter, exactly, exactly. And have always moved in very liberal circles. Again, the Burning Man community. So I have personally not faced much judgment with close people. However, on social media, I sometimes, especially on TikTok, for some reason on Instagram, I don’t get that much hate, but on TikTok I’ve even had people like recording videos criticizing what I’m doing, especially because… My partner is monogamous and people make an assumption that I’m taking advantage of him. And there’s a lot of layers of feeling like what I’m doing is unethical or something along those lines. I don’t I don’ feel any shame around it, however We’re not fully open. As I mentioned, my partner comes from a religious family. And I understand that their views of marriage and sex are very, very different from mine. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what has been difficult for me has been to have to hide. Obviously, now this is my career, right? So I often have to hid a little bit what I’m doing as to not damage those relationships with those people that I really care for. And they care for me a lot. But I know that if they knew. Again, especially because their family member, my partner is monogamous, they would just completely change the way they see me and it would just create a lot of issues which I’m trying to avoid. So that’s been difficult. However, what you said is interesting about the gay community being almost judgmental the other way around, of like, why aren’t you being… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m making that up, Manuel or is that true? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no, I it is a kind of it becomes like a lose lose situation because like if you’re on the one end, they’re like, oh, then you’re clearly just buying into this heteronormative patriarchal traditional assimilationist kind of strategy. And how dare you leave the rest of us radicals behind? Or on the other end, like, you know, you’re breaking all the institutions apart. So how dare you then not leave anything, is nothing sacred? I think for me, what I’ve always come down to is that so long as it’s a choice and it’s a conscious choice that you’re making, like monogamy is not, it’s not a dirty word. I think it’s, oh yeah, to me it’s only, it only becomes badly weaponized when it’s understood to be the default, the norm and therefore the thing that we should all aspire to. So long as we’re all consenting adults and we’re understanding, like the three of us have very different configurations, but all of them seem to be rooted in understanding what each of us want out of the relationship and having open conversations with those we’re with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, are there folks in your family, folks who you are intimately tied to that do or do not know about your relationship dynamic?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So my entire, I think my entire extended family knows about my relationship. So they know that I’m part of a throuple. And so that’s the extent of what they know about my relationships. I don’t think any of them know about the sort of consensual non-monogamy openness. It’s in my book, but the joy about writing in a language that most of your family does not speak regularly, because all my family is in Columbia. Is that there was a kind of, for my entire adult life, I’ve sort of always bisected my kind of identities with like gayness and queerness exist in English and then families lives or exist in Spanish. It’s this weird associating mechanism but I’ve, sort of, have needed to survive and grapple with and sort of it has helped me. But it is also. Helped keep those boundaries very separate. But like my mom has met my, my boyfriends, we spent holidays together with my brother and siblings and sort of they understand that like that the three of us are a unit. It did feel like a second coming out, like when I had to explain it, when I have to like tell my mom but she was kind of fantastic about it.Uh, every time she’s like, how are the boys doing? What, like she’s very much involved in that aspect of it, Less so in the like We all go to play parties or I have like anonymous sex during the day. But that’s a nice boundary that I feel comfortable maintaining with my family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, right. Because one thing is to be open about the arrangement. Another thing is for them to read your book, or for example, in my case to listen to my podcast. And I have a similar situation where my mom’s side of the family doesn’t speak English. So that well, my mom and a couple of members, so that that helps. And recently, she was like, Oh, I think I can figure out how to translate your podcast. And I’m like, No, no, no. Please do not do that. Let’s keep that separate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s put it to the people who do know in your life, Fernanda, is there a misconception they have that you had to clear up right away to make sure that they understood you fully and the choices you made fully. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, my mom, as open as she has been, had a lot of questions and concerns at first. Her immediate thought was, she doesn’t love Seth or Seth doesn’t love her. Also, she, she adores Seth. And, you know, they have this really cute relationship because Seth doesn’t speak much Spanish either, but they somehow they communicate, they love each other. It’s wonderful. Um, and she was really afraid that I would be, uh, screwing our relationship up because I was dating other people. So it took a few months and even today, sometimes if I’m talking to my mom about another partner of mine, which I do sometimes, and, she knows that said this around, she’ll be like, shh, shhh, Fernanda, shut up. And I’m like, mom, first of all, we’re speaking Spanish. Second of all said knows about this. There’s, there’s nothing, there is nothing to hide. So there’s still that like impulse. But she’s actually come around and she’s seen how beautiful of a relationship set and I have, and she has become a little bit like of an advocate for at least considering the option, which I find amazing given that a lot of people do not have that relationship with their moms. But what I tell people is, if you really feel like there won’t be an open line of communication and it will just cause judgment and a separation with a family member you still want to be close to, then no need to disclose it. But if you think that there might be a little bit of openness, you might be surprised. You just need to kind of introduce it bit by bit and explain the reasons why this is important to you, why you do this. And you might find that people are more open to it than you thought. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to end with this one question, starting with you Fernanda. What is one thing that you’ve learned about yourself in pursuing non-monogamy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think I have already shared a little bit about this, but that I thrive through connection and through connecting with other people and that that for me is a way of growing personally. So as much as I’m working on finding validation within myself, being my best friend and like working on that relationship with myself too, when I interact with new partners and new people, they do bring out new parts of myself that I wasn’t. Really aware of. So I think, yeah, for me it has to do with how I see life and how connection is kind of the vehicle that I’m taking to grow as a person and as an individual. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a book to recommend to you for now because my entire book is all about like strangers allow ourselves to see ourselves differently, right, like they give us insights into ourselves that we didn’t know we had. I think the thing that I’ve learned the most about well-exploring non-monogamy and the thing I’ve taught myself is that my libido and my desires are not challenges I think for the longest time I constantly thought of myself as needing to reign in my desires, reigning my libido, like just really corral it into something that is understandable, that is legible, that is controllable, that I can handle and show other people. And I think the thing that I’ve not realized, like I’ve actually worked hard to sort of rewire is that acting on them and acting on them ethically and honestly a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd with the support and encouragement of my Partners.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s kind of beauty in them. There is a kind of beauty in being able to sort of follow your bliss and your desire. And to really let that be a really fun way of interacting with the world and with other people and with strangers and with known people and that it’s not about yeah, controlling. I think for the for the longest time, I felt like my desires needed to be sort of caged and domesticated. And instead of just like not let them run wild, but actually allowing myself to follow through them and see where they lead me. And they’ve led into a lot of really fun different places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To use the language from the intro, just like break free, like Ariana Grande ourselves out of this like prison and just do what we feel is right. Well, I wanna thank each of you for such a lovely informative conversation, especially again, coming from my particular POV, it’s so wonderful to hear other people, especially other Latinos talk about relationships, talk about love and sex, and really get me to change some of these long-held beliefs I had. So I really appreciate your time and you being here with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fernanda Fabian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you Xorge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manuel Betancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I do want to remind our listeners that you can follow our guests Fernanda has a podcast the poly curious podcast Manuel has a couple books including hello stranger Which is now available all of that information will be in our show notes and also where you can find each of them on social Media and if want to send us an email just email us at HYP at kqed.org Especially if you wanna share your non monogamy experiences, but until then, hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker. Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "hyphenacion-papeles-what-does-u-s-citizenship-mean-today",
"title": "Papeles: What Does U.S. Citizenship Mean Today?",
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"content": "\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Documentation divides the Latino community in the U.S. between those whose existence in this country is permitted and those who are criminalized for their very presence. This line of legality has been drawn deeper and has changed quickly during the second Trump administration. In the face of this uncertainty, host Xorje Olivares speaks with authors Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) and Javier Zamora (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>Solito\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\" data-slate-fragment=\"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\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) to ask “What does citizenship mean, today?”\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4175855502&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/tWwcVpxmuIc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/karlarrriot/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/558229/the-undocumented-americans-by-karla-cornejo-villavicencio/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cem>\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Javier Zamora \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>(\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/705626/solito-a-read-with-jenna-pick-by-javier-zamora/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Solito\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: You know, I’ve probably been asked more than 1,000 times if I’m a U.S. citizen, and that’s not even an exaggeration. Growing up in a town along the U.S.-Mexico border, I constantly had to verify my documentation status and citizenship to U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agents. And to be clear, this wasn’t even when we were crossing the border. We were just going outside city limits, still within the state. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’d go a little something like this. My family and I would drive to an inspection point where an armed, uniformed officer would approach the car window. Upon lowering it, they’d promptly ask, “‘You a citizen?’ To which we’d each respond, “‘Yes, U.S. citizen.'” And that was it. Unless my late Tio was traveling with us. Because he was a permanent resident, not a U.S. Citizen, he’d quietly hand over his green card and await further questions, which he never really got. But I’m talking about more than 10 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because this process felt so normalized to us, I never thought to ask him how he felt during those interactions. I know for me, as a third generation Texan born into citizenship, I never felt worried during these exchanges, which I know is a huge privilege. But I did learn early on that asking for someone’s documentation is a high-stakes question and the gun at the officer’s hip, the giant fence just minutes away from my house, was proof of that somehow. Even though I was born, legit, less than two miles away from the Rio Grande, I’m on one side of a line, a line that the United States government has used to decide that my existence in this country is permitted, while others are criminalized. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as you may have heard, the undocumented community has been placed at the center of some very aggressive immigration policies right now. There are promises to deport millions of undocumented people and to end birthright citizenship, which is a constitutional protection. And on top of that, the current administration is threatening deportation against U.S. citizens. So at this moment, the line of criminality is being drawn deeper and is changing very quickly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I wanna ask this question. What does the idea of citizenship even mean today? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So joining me today to have this conversation are two people who have written extensively about the issue of documentation and citizenship. I wanna ask each of them if there is a written work, a piece of written work that they feel is very important for us to be reading right now. So first, excited to welcome to the program Carla Cornejo via Vicentio. She’s the author of the book, The Undocumented Americans, which chronicles the experiences of many undocumented people in this country. So Karla, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, and I want to ask if you have a recommendation for listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, thanks for having me. I would recommend Pedro Le Mebel’s My Tender Matador or in Spanish, it’s Tengo Miedo Torero. It’s a Chilean novel set during the Pinochet years and it’s about like an aging drag queen and trans woman who just survives those years with incredible imagination and. glamor and melodrama and I found it very inspiring and it’s pretty slim too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Thank you for sharing that. Also, I love a queer story. I will always add queer stories to my repertoire of books. Also excited to welcome to the program Javier Zamora, who is best known for his 2022 memoir, Solito, which chronicled his own experience as an unaccompanied minor going from El Salvador to the United States. Javier, thank you so much for joining us today and asking if you also have a recommendation for a piece of written work that we should be reading. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do. I think the unexpected perk of publishing a book is getting books in advance. And there’s this forthcoming one by Daisy Hernandez called Citizenship, a Story. And the subtitle is Notes on Origin, Familias, and Who We Are. And it’s going to come out in early 2026. and I genuinely think everybody should read it because she talks directly about this idea, which is an idea about citizenship, and countries, and race, and sexuality, like all these things that are affecting us today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you each for those suggestions. And for again, joining me today, I, I like that you’re getting at exactly what we’re hoping to talk about during this episode, which is the idea of citizenship. Yes, there is the, by the books, understanding of what citizenship means, especially here in the United States, but it also is an idea in the sense of being documented is also an idea. But I want to ask, starting with you Javier, this notion of documentation. And when you became fully aware that you were undocumented, or that the United State’s government viewed you as such. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what? I had no idea. You know, I was just a kid. Like I didn’t, my nine year old brain didn’t understand why we didn’t come on a plane per se. I just thought that yes we didn’t get a visa but there was no understanding of borders, passports and legality. But I don’t think I truly understood. or it began to hit, that I was different, completely different, until 9-11 happened. Around that time, my parents were hoping that because they had fled a war-torn area and they had applied to this thing called Nakata and political asylum, my dad was one of immigrants and I think could be the man. that he was very sure that the green card was gonna arrive at the mailbox and he didn’t hire a lawyer. And it’s by sheer bad luck that our appointment happened the first week of October of 2001. And so then my first instances of understanding that, oh, sh-t, like, we have to be afraid, is that we had… a huge break, because when you interview, you’re always down to just one person. And it’s usually for us, it has always been a white man who has to like validate whether your story and your testimony is true. And he thought that our story wasn’t true. But he did, instead of directly sending us to deportation, he did allow us to go seek a lawyer immediately. And so I’m 11 years old and I remember running through downtown to the financial district of San Francisco, looking for an immigration lawyer that would help us stay. We were under deportation proceedings, but somehow we stayed. And again, you know, I was 11 and it wasn’t until I got to college that I would, that I completely began to like read and understand what my family’s legal story was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that experience. I want to ask you, Karla, if you remember growing up just how you had to navigate this status that had been placed upon you by the government and by people who didn’t know where you were coming from, where your family was coming from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would equate being undocumented with feeling perpetually unsafe. It’s not necessarily the same thing as feeling always afraid, but you’re certainly always unsafe, you’re always precarious. And I knew that, just as I knew that as a girl, like I could be abused by a man at any time, as an undocumented girl, I felt like the state could do anything to me at any times as well. So it was, it was scary growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I think this, this issue of safety is what most people forget when we have this much larger conversation about immigration is that there is an element of feeling unsafe that folks are trying, whether in their country of origin, even here in the States that they’re trying to relieve themselves of. Part of the thing that I guess you learn early on, even when you are not undocumented, I’ll say is I understood this issue or this notion of papeles and that documentation needed to exist. And so I’m curious, Javier, if this just the language of papeleis resonates with you or means something with you and if it did at a very early age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that word citizenship, I think I learned in school. You know the, the first instance was my parents, you know, when I mentioned, oh, the green card is going to come. He didn’t even say the word green card. Los papeles van a llegar, nos van a mandar los papeles. So like this idea of a piece of paper. It’s not like, to me, I think as a nine year old, you know, learning English and I knew I was different and I knew that I couldn’t tell my friends because my parents told me not to tell anybody how I had gotten to this country. By \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">10,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 5th, 6th grade, I also learned a story to tell people that I had been born at the local hospital. But all these things, I still didn’t understand these ideas of citizenship. What I did understand was that I didn’t have a piece of paper. And usually as a nine, 10 year old, that piece of paper with a birth certificate that didn’t say that I had been born in this country\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, kind of similar to what Javier just mentioned. Did you create certain stories or narratives? Like to protect yourself, just so that way you knew that nobody would be able to figure something out that could then be used against you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, I mean, that’s when I started my campaign of personal misinformation. I don’t really give people access to myself. And that is obviously something that I learned. I’m not, I don’t deceive, but I also do not feel like the world is entitled to my interiority. And it’s the one thing that I’ve had that has belonged to me, has just been my mind. And so I’m very protective of it. And I think growing up, I learned how to have conversations where I learned to navigate social situations while staying safe, right? And some of that involves knowing when to be invisible and knowing when to stand out a little bit more, learning how to like a pretty intuitive understanding of that. And I mean, I guess that’s part of the story. It was that I was just Um, like an elusive chanteuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if I can hear, I think, you know, Karla’s book was published before I published anything in prose. And I did those were the parts of your book, Karla, that really spoke to me because I had never really read anybody like address this almost like superpower that we don’t want, but we learn in order to to remain safe. And that is exactly what it feels like. And I think that term that you just mentioned, I think it’s brilliant. And it helped me even as a 30-year-old man begin to learn something of how I had lived my life for 20 years up to that point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really sweet Javier, thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to pull into this, what Karla just said about the invisibility and the visibility dynamics. I’m curious, Javier, about your own navigation of invisibility, invisibility and when you realized you preferred one over another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me, I think like most stories begins in the relationship that you have with your parents. For me my dad was absent for my first nine years of my life, but my mom was there, but then she left. But before she left, you know, she was a young teenage mom and I think she really pressed upon this at times, toxic relationship of you have to be the best. You have to be the valedictorian in order to get a free uniform and free books. And you are going to be my ticket out and our ticket out of poverty. And so I had to navigate this hyper visibility. I knew that I had to had to be an honor roll student in order to get ahead and also get out of poverty, but also to hide and be invisible at different times in order to stay in this country and not go back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the most, uh, kind of explicit moments of visibility is the fact that each of you have written something about your experiences. And I love that Javier, you mentioned how Karla’s book was kind of one of the, the first that you were able to see where this experience had been shared and I do want to ask, I’m going to ask both of you, but I want to start with you, Carla about the decision to write the book and to place yourself in such a vulnerable position by talking about a subject that most people would be quite scared to share.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story that I tell is that I kind of fell into it because like Trump won the first time and I felt like there was like nothing really that felt representative to me of what being undocumented felt like. I think I desperately needed to witness what was happening in the first Trump administration. I think that I knew one of the things I learned just intuitively growing up is what it’s like to be a sort of a powerless being and the sort of the little safeties that you build up over the years, you know, like Javier said, a lot of that happens academically, happens through standing out academically, like melting into the background is something that, speaking for myself, was dangerous, would have condemned me to a sameness of sort of the world around me, and that was un-conceivable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, similarly to what Karla just said, you know, I think, again, there aren’t, there weren’t many complete or dignified representations of immigrants during the first Trump administration. It was like all these white liberals were like, oh my god, we never heard of undocumented people before when we’ve been here all along. Let me write some, you know, not thought out book about it. This happened all the time during the first administration. And somehow there were some glimmers, some diamonds there like Karla’s book, you knows, Antonio Arguez’s book. But then there was nothing. And so for me, I think I was also, you I was writing poetry. And I didn’t like what I had produced, my first book of poems came out in 2017 uh, write on as he took power the first time. And I felt that poetry couldn’t tell my whole story. But then there were a lot of these non-immigrants writing about immigrants. And it made me think, you know, talking about hyper visibility and like this valedictorian mentality, which I wasn’t a valedictorian, but I wanted to be. Um, but I could do it better. I can tell this story better than all these non-immigrants. And so I think that’s how I entered it. By that point, I also had the comfort of having a green card with my book of poems. I did not have a green card. I’m not a citizen yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would I publish the book now? Yes. But I think our stories are necessary at the end of the day. If I have ever written something that jeopardizes my own legal status in this country, and if I get to be sent out because of anything that I said for any shirt that I’m wearing for saying free Palestine, then you know, honestly I don’t need this country. You know, why are we trying to? be such good quote unquote citizens in order for what you know the the U.S. is showing its colors and it always has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a break and when we come back, focus a little bit on the representation that you have shared with the world. We’re gonna get a short, little break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we were talking about dignified representation and the fact that each of you saw a moment to be able to share your story. And Carla, when I introduced you, I mentioned again that your book was called the undocumented Americans. And I love the juxtaposition of those words, especially because I feel like in this national narrative in the political discourse, most people will say on one particular side of the aisle that those two words don’t necessarily go together. So I’m curious for you about the choice to title your book. undocumented Americans, where they can coexist as a hyphenation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, people can’t really take the term, the hemispheric term America. The publishers recommended undocumented America, which felt to me like very national geographic. And I was like, no. And then I wanted to be a little bit of a b-tch. And I want it to… I want it to be an homage to Henry James. So I want to call it The Undocumented Americans. And yeah, I mean, I don’t really feel too intimately with the name, but I do know that my Connecticut State Senator, Chris Murphy, got in trouble for saying something very nice, but very mild, you know? He was just something like, I feel sorry for our neighbors. are the undocumented Americans. And I think maybe he thought that that was the term we’re now using. But he got into so much trouble for it. He got so much hate. I know that because I have a Google alert on the undocumented American. I would get like, like right wing blogs being like, you know, all sorts of things. Poor Chris Murphy. So I think my book did have an impact in that they got Chris Murphy. into a lot of trouble for embracing the term. So people seem to have an issue with it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. I talk about the story of how, you know, I’m always having to say I’m a U S citizen when I’m back home, because it’s a border point, it’s an entry point. And we were always told to say U S citizens, not American citizen, because of this notion of you can be for many part of the Americas. What does that mean? So I think even just that specification of U S citizen was just ingrained in me at such an early age. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus on language because there is that notion of American and citizen. And so I want to start with you Javier about if either of those words, American or citizen resonate more with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">None – I’ve never considered myself either. You know, I’ve been, especially since the second administration Trump presidency began, I’ve really been looking at my own trajectory into obtaining papeles. You know, I finally get a green card, When? During the first Trump administration, I’ve had a green card for six years now. And I haven’t applied to become a citizen. And so for me it’s like now that I don’t have to look over my shoulder as much, or so I thought, now we’re learning in this presidency that, oh, a green card is also not as safe as you once thought. And now even facing this very real and almost urgent question for myself because I have to either apply to renew my green card or apply for citizenship next year. And so I’m like, why would I want to become? And what does that mean? What am I gaining? I am gaining a vote. You know, I’ve never voted in my life. Not in El Salvador, I’m not here. But is that, is it political citizenship? What am I gaining socially? I don’t think I will be gaining anything else that I don’t already have. So what is the difference? So I don’t know. I am with you. I’m still actively thinking about it every single day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you in a similar situation where you think about it every day, about whether you choose one of those words over another, American or citizen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, my life is not filled with a lot of choices and that’s also not a choice I’m given. So, um, I’m fine with whatever people want to call me so long as it’s not a slur. I guess I do identify as an immigrant. I am naturalized as a citizen, but my brain developed under a certain set of circumstances, and I have a certain set of skills, like I said. So you don’t stop being an immigrant at any point in the legalization process. There is a process of like acculturation. There’s a process with assimilation or not. There’s like so many like things, there’s like code switching. There’s, there’s a certain set of experiences, I think that do unite immigrants but I don’t think that, I don’t think you really stop being an immigrant because it is sort of about being someone who doesn’t have a place that necessarily wants to claim them. And they are kind of looking out for themselves and looking for a place of safety and freedom and dignity. And then you’re willing to move for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I do wanna focus and pivot us a little bit to the future. And I wanna ask in this moment, what do you think we’ve started to understand if anything at all or what is exposed now about the idea of American citizenship?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the empire is crumbling. We can see it. I think that settler colonial colony that the United States is showing its framework. And so for me, you know, the answer, because I do think that artists and writers should look at what is wrong with the world, but also dream of something to provide or gift for the future. For me, I think the answer is easy. The answer was here before white people showed up.It took me 30 plus years for me to even begin to identify as Native, as Indigenous, which I also am. And I think a lot of us in the Latina community are still carrying that shame of being part Black, part Indigenous, and we want to be proud of the small percentage of Spanish or European blood that we have. But that’s not the answer. That is the poison that we within us and we do. And so what is left for the future? For me, the future is looking back and imagining a Turtle Island or the Americas before any white man came here. You know, that is where the answers lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you optimistic about what we can anticipate? Not necessarily in this current administration, but for the years to come, the next 20, 30 years. Will the conversation surrounding citizenship and people who are undocumented, do you think it’ll change or will be kind of what we’ve experienced for generations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I’m optimistic every day because that’s what keeps me going and that’s why keeps me alive and committing to the human social experiment. But I definitely don’t believe in a utopia ever materializing. I think human beings are bad and selfish and desirous of power in ways that cannot really be trusted. This is something that happened slowly and it happened over time. and it involved the participation and non-participation of a lot of people. And so I would say we need to have people who believe in democracy, even though it might be an illusion and it might be a myth and it may be a pyramid scheme. Like so many things are, like love or religion, like faith, these are things that become real because you all participate in a collective delusion about it. And so I think that people who care to participate in the delusion of democracy, when you could participate in the delusion of many other things, they should run for office. They should become judges. They should become lawyers. They should become doctors who work at free clinics. How do you use yourself and your safety if you are a person who is safe to contribute to the safety of people who have literally no rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for sharing a lot of yourselves, a lot of your experiences and providing your insight on this very difficult topic, especially because of what’s happening politically in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you wanna follow them and get any of their works, all you have to do is go to our show notes. We will show you how to follow them on social, buy their books, and support everything that they’ve got going on. So please do that. And also, if you want to send us any information about your own story or anything you wanna see represented on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. Thank you all for listening. Hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Benett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Documentation divides the Latino community in the U.S. between those whose existence in this country is permitted and those who are criminalized for their very presence. This line of legality has been drawn deeper and has changed quickly during the second Trump administration. In the face of this uncertainty, Host Xorje Olivares speaks with authors Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (The Undocumented Americans) and Javier Zamora (Solito) to ask “What does citizenship mean, today?”",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Documentation divides the Latino community in the U.S. between those whose existence in this country is permitted and those who are criminalized for their very presence. This line of legality has been drawn deeper and has changed quickly during the second Trump administration. In the face of this uncertainty, host Xorje Olivares speaks with authors Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) and Javier Zamora (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cem>Solito\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\" data-slate-fragment=\"JTVCJTdCJTIydHlwZSUyMiUzQSUyMnBhcmFncmFwaCUyMiUyQyUyMmNoaWxkcmVuJTIyJTNBJTVCJTdCJTIydGV4dCUyMiUzQSUyMkRvY3VtZW50YXRpb24lMjBpbiUyMHRoZSUyMFUuUy4lMjBkaXZpZGVzJTIwdGhlJTIwTGF0aW5vJTIwY29tbXVuaXR5JTIwYmV0d2VlbiUyMHRob3NlJTIwd2hvc2UlMjBleGlzdGVuY2UlMjBpbiUyMHRoaXMlMjBjb3VudHJ5JTIwaXMlMjBwZXJtaXR0ZWQlMjBhbmQlMjB0aG9zZSUyMHdobyUyMGFyZSUyMGNyaW1pbmFsaXplZCUyMGZvciUyMHRoZWlyJTIwdmVyeSUyMHByZXNlbmNlLiUyMFRoaXMlMjBsaW5lJTIwb2YlMjBsZWdhbGl0eSUyMGhhcyUyMGJlZW4lMjBkcmF3biUyMGRlZXBlciUyMGFuZCUyMGhhcyUyMGNoYW5nZWQlMjBxdWlja2x5JTIwZHVyaW5nJTIwdGhlJTIwc2Vjb25kJTIwVHJ1bXAlMjBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGlvbi4lMjBJbiUyMHRoZSUyMGZhY2UlMjBvZiUyMHRoaXMlMjB1bmNlcnRhaW50eSUyQyUyMEhvc3QlMjBYb3JqZSUyME9saXZhcmVzJTIwc3BlYWtzJTIwd2l0aCUyMGF1dGhvcnMlMjBLYXJsYSUyMENvcm5lam8lMjBWaWxsYXZpY2VuY2lvJTIwKCUyMiU3RCUyQyU3QiUyMnRleHQlMjIlM0ElMjJUaGUlMjBVbmRvY3VtZW50ZWQlMjBBbWVyaWNhbnMlMjIlMkMlMjJpdGFsaWMlMjIlM0F0cnVlJTdEJTJDJTdCJTIydGV4dCUyMiUzQSUyMiklMjBhbmQlMjBKYXZpZXIlMjBaYW1vcmElMjAoJTIyJTdEJTJDJTdCJTIydGV4dCUyMiUzQSUyMlNvbGl0byUyMiUyQyUyMml0YWxpYyUyMiUzQXRydWUlN0QlMkMlN0IlMjJ0ZXh0JTIyJTNBJTIyKSUyMHRvJTIwYXNrJTIwJUUyJTgwJTlDV2hhdCUyMGRvZXMlMjBjaXRpemVuc2hpcCUyMG1lYW4lMkMlMjB0b2RheSUzRiVFMiU4MCU5RCUyMiU3RCU1RCU3RCU1RA==\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">) to ask “What does citizenship mean, today?”\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4175855502&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/tWwcVpxmuIc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/tWwcVpxmuIc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cstrong>Guests\u003c/strong>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">:\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Karla Cornejo Villavicencio (\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/karlarrriot/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/558229/the-undocumented-americans-by-karla-cornejo-villavicencio/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cem>\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>The Undocumented Americans\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"encore-text encore-text-body-medium\" data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">Javier Zamora \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>(\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.instagram.com/jzsalvipoet/?hl=en\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Instagram\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">, \u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003ca class=\"Link-sc-k8gsk-0 edjgOj sc-kpDqfm ejcycC\" href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/705626/solito-a-read-with-jenna-pick-by-javier-zamora/\" data-slate-node=\"element\" data-slate-inline=\"true\" data-encore-id=\"textLink\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">\u003cu>Solito\u003c/u>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cspan data-slate-node=\"text\">\u003cspan class=\"sc-kAyceB grEoze\" data-slate-leaf=\"true\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-encore-id=\"text\" data-slate-node=\"element\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: You know, I’ve probably been asked more than 1,000 times if I’m a U.S. citizen, and that’s not even an exaggeration. Growing up in a town along the U.S.-Mexico border, I constantly had to verify my documentation status and citizenship to U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agents. And to be clear, this wasn’t even when we were crossing the border. We were just going outside city limits, still within the state. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’d go a little something like this. My family and I would drive to an inspection point where an armed, uniformed officer would approach the car window. Upon lowering it, they’d promptly ask, “‘You a citizen?’ To which we’d each respond, “‘Yes, U.S. citizen.'” And that was it. Unless my late Tio was traveling with us. Because he was a permanent resident, not a U.S. Citizen, he’d quietly hand over his green card and await further questions, which he never really got. But I’m talking about more than 10 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because this process felt so normalized to us, I never thought to ask him how he felt during those interactions. I know for me, as a third generation Texan born into citizenship, I never felt worried during these exchanges, which I know is a huge privilege. But I did learn early on that asking for someone’s documentation is a high-stakes question and the gun at the officer’s hip, the giant fence just minutes away from my house, was proof of that somehow. Even though I was born, legit, less than two miles away from the Rio Grande, I’m on one side of a line, a line that the United States government has used to decide that my existence in this country is permitted, while others are criminalized. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as you may have heard, the undocumented community has been placed at the center of some very aggressive immigration policies right now. There are promises to deport millions of undocumented people and to end birthright citizenship, which is a constitutional protection. And on top of that, the current administration is threatening deportation against U.S. citizens. So at this moment, the line of criminality is being drawn deeper and is changing very quickly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I wanna ask this question. What does the idea of citizenship even mean today? This is Hyphenation, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So joining me today to have this conversation are two people who have written extensively about the issue of documentation and citizenship. I wanna ask each of them if there is a written work, a piece of written work that they feel is very important for us to be reading right now. So first, excited to welcome to the program Carla Cornejo via Vicentio. She’s the author of the book, The Undocumented Americans, which chronicles the experiences of many undocumented people in this country. So Karla, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, and I want to ask if you have a recommendation for listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, thanks for having me. I would recommend Pedro Le Mebel’s My Tender Matador or in Spanish, it’s Tengo Miedo Torero. It’s a Chilean novel set during the Pinochet years and it’s about like an aging drag queen and trans woman who just survives those years with incredible imagination and. glamor and melodrama and I found it very inspiring and it’s pretty slim too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nice. Thank you for sharing that. Also, I love a queer story. I will always add queer stories to my repertoire of books. Also excited to welcome to the program Javier Zamora, who is best known for his 2022 memoir, Solito, which chronicled his own experience as an unaccompanied minor going from El Salvador to the United States. Javier, thank you so much for joining us today and asking if you also have a recommendation for a piece of written work that we should be reading. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do. I think the unexpected perk of publishing a book is getting books in advance. And there’s this forthcoming one by Daisy Hernandez called Citizenship, a Story. And the subtitle is Notes on Origin, Familias, and Who We Are. And it’s going to come out in early 2026. and I genuinely think everybody should read it because she talks directly about this idea, which is an idea about citizenship, and countries, and race, and sexuality, like all these things that are affecting us today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you each for those suggestions. And for again, joining me today, I, I like that you’re getting at exactly what we’re hoping to talk about during this episode, which is the idea of citizenship. Yes, there is the, by the books, understanding of what citizenship means, especially here in the United States, but it also is an idea in the sense of being documented is also an idea. But I want to ask, starting with you Javier, this notion of documentation. And when you became fully aware that you were undocumented, or that the United State’s government viewed you as such. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what? I had no idea. You know, I was just a kid. Like I didn’t, my nine year old brain didn’t understand why we didn’t come on a plane per se. I just thought that yes we didn’t get a visa but there was no understanding of borders, passports and legality. But I don’t think I truly understood. or it began to hit, that I was different, completely different, until 9-11 happened. Around that time, my parents were hoping that because they had fled a war-torn area and they had applied to this thing called Nakata and political asylum, my dad was one of immigrants and I think could be the man. that he was very sure that the green card was gonna arrive at the mailbox and he didn’t hire a lawyer. And it’s by sheer bad luck that our appointment happened the first week of October of 2001. And so then my first instances of understanding that, oh, sh-t, like, we have to be afraid, is that we had… a huge break, because when you interview, you’re always down to just one person. And it’s usually for us, it has always been a white man who has to like validate whether your story and your testimony is true. And he thought that our story wasn’t true. But he did, instead of directly sending us to deportation, he did allow us to go seek a lawyer immediately. And so I’m 11 years old and I remember running through downtown to the financial district of San Francisco, looking for an immigration lawyer that would help us stay. We were under deportation proceedings, but somehow we stayed. And again, you know, I was 11 and it wasn’t until I got to college that I would, that I completely began to like read and understand what my family’s legal story was. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that experience. I want to ask you, Karla, if you remember growing up just how you had to navigate this status that had been placed upon you by the government and by people who didn’t know where you were coming from, where your family was coming from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would equate being undocumented with feeling perpetually unsafe. It’s not necessarily the same thing as feeling always afraid, but you’re certainly always unsafe, you’re always precarious. And I knew that, just as I knew that as a girl, like I could be abused by a man at any time, as an undocumented girl, I felt like the state could do anything to me at any times as well. So it was, it was scary growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I think this, this issue of safety is what most people forget when we have this much larger conversation about immigration is that there is an element of feeling unsafe that folks are trying, whether in their country of origin, even here in the States that they’re trying to relieve themselves of. Part of the thing that I guess you learn early on, even when you are not undocumented, I’ll say is I understood this issue or this notion of papeles and that documentation needed to exist. And so I’m curious, Javier, if this just the language of papeleis resonates with you or means something with you and if it did at a very early age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, that word citizenship, I think I learned in school. You know the, the first instance was my parents, you know, when I mentioned, oh, the green card is going to come. He didn’t even say the word green card. Los papeles van a llegar, nos van a mandar los papeles. So like this idea of a piece of paper. It’s not like, to me, I think as a nine year old, you know, learning English and I knew I was different and I knew that I couldn’t tell my friends because my parents told me not to tell anybody how I had gotten to this country. By \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">10,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 5th, 6th grade, I also learned a story to tell people that I had been born at the local hospital. But all these things, I still didn’t understand these ideas of citizenship. What I did understand was that I didn’t have a piece of paper. And usually as a nine, 10 year old, that piece of paper with a birth certificate that didn’t say that I had been born in this country\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, kind of similar to what Javier just mentioned. Did you create certain stories or narratives? Like to protect yourself, just so that way you knew that nobody would be able to figure something out that could then be used against you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure, I mean, that’s when I started my campaign of personal misinformation. I don’t really give people access to myself. And that is obviously something that I learned. I’m not, I don’t deceive, but I also do not feel like the world is entitled to my interiority. And it’s the one thing that I’ve had that has belonged to me, has just been my mind. And so I’m very protective of it. And I think growing up, I learned how to have conversations where I learned to navigate social situations while staying safe, right? And some of that involves knowing when to be invisible and knowing when to stand out a little bit more, learning how to like a pretty intuitive understanding of that. And I mean, I guess that’s part of the story. It was that I was just Um, like an elusive chanteuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if I can hear, I think, you know, Karla’s book was published before I published anything in prose. And I did those were the parts of your book, Karla, that really spoke to me because I had never really read anybody like address this almost like superpower that we don’t want, but we learn in order to to remain safe. And that is exactly what it feels like. And I think that term that you just mentioned, I think it’s brilliant. And it helped me even as a 30-year-old man begin to learn something of how I had lived my life for 20 years up to that point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really sweet Javier, thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to pull into this, what Karla just said about the invisibility and the visibility dynamics. I’m curious, Javier, about your own navigation of invisibility, invisibility and when you realized you preferred one over another. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me, I think like most stories begins in the relationship that you have with your parents. For me my dad was absent for my first nine years of my life, but my mom was there, but then she left. But before she left, you know, she was a young teenage mom and I think she really pressed upon this at times, toxic relationship of you have to be the best. You have to be the valedictorian in order to get a free uniform and free books. And you are going to be my ticket out and our ticket out of poverty. And so I had to navigate this hyper visibility. I knew that I had to had to be an honor roll student in order to get ahead and also get out of poverty, but also to hide and be invisible at different times in order to stay in this country and not go back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, one of the most, uh, kind of explicit moments of visibility is the fact that each of you have written something about your experiences. And I love that Javier, you mentioned how Karla’s book was kind of one of the, the first that you were able to see where this experience had been shared and I do want to ask, I’m going to ask both of you, but I want to start with you, Carla about the decision to write the book and to place yourself in such a vulnerable position by talking about a subject that most people would be quite scared to share.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story that I tell is that I kind of fell into it because like Trump won the first time and I felt like there was like nothing really that felt representative to me of what being undocumented felt like. I think I desperately needed to witness what was happening in the first Trump administration. I think that I knew one of the things I learned just intuitively growing up is what it’s like to be a sort of a powerless being and the sort of the little safeties that you build up over the years, you know, like Javier said, a lot of that happens academically, happens through standing out academically, like melting into the background is something that, speaking for myself, was dangerous, would have condemned me to a sameness of sort of the world around me, and that was un-conceivable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, similarly to what Karla just said, you know, I think, again, there aren’t, there weren’t many complete or dignified representations of immigrants during the first Trump administration. It was like all these white liberals were like, oh my god, we never heard of undocumented people before when we’ve been here all along. Let me write some, you know, not thought out book about it. This happened all the time during the first administration. And somehow there were some glimmers, some diamonds there like Karla’s book, you knows, Antonio Arguez’s book. But then there was nothing. And so for me, I think I was also, you I was writing poetry. And I didn’t like what I had produced, my first book of poems came out in 2017 uh, write on as he took power the first time. And I felt that poetry couldn’t tell my whole story. But then there were a lot of these non-immigrants writing about immigrants. And it made me think, you know, talking about hyper visibility and like this valedictorian mentality, which I wasn’t a valedictorian, but I wanted to be. Um, but I could do it better. I can tell this story better than all these non-immigrants. And so I think that’s how I entered it. By that point, I also had the comfort of having a green card with my book of poems. I did not have a green card. I’m not a citizen yet. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would I publish the book now? Yes. But I think our stories are necessary at the end of the day. If I have ever written something that jeopardizes my own legal status in this country, and if I get to be sent out because of anything that I said for any shirt that I’m wearing for saying free Palestine, then you know, honestly I don’t need this country. You know, why are we trying to? be such good quote unquote citizens in order for what you know the the U.S. is showing its colors and it always has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to take a break and when we come back, focus a little bit on the representation that you have shared with the world. We’re gonna get a short, little break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we were talking about dignified representation and the fact that each of you saw a moment to be able to share your story. And Carla, when I introduced you, I mentioned again that your book was called the undocumented Americans. And I love the juxtaposition of those words, especially because I feel like in this national narrative in the political discourse, most people will say on one particular side of the aisle that those two words don’t necessarily go together. So I’m curious for you about the choice to title your book. undocumented Americans, where they can coexist as a hyphenation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, people can’t really take the term, the hemispheric term America. The publishers recommended undocumented America, which felt to me like very national geographic. And I was like, no. And then I wanted to be a little bit of a b-tch. And I want it to… I want it to be an homage to Henry James. So I want to call it The Undocumented Americans. And yeah, I mean, I don’t really feel too intimately with the name, but I do know that my Connecticut State Senator, Chris Murphy, got in trouble for saying something very nice, but very mild, you know? He was just something like, I feel sorry for our neighbors. are the undocumented Americans. And I think maybe he thought that that was the term we’re now using. But he got into so much trouble for it. He got so much hate. I know that because I have a Google alert on the undocumented American. I would get like, like right wing blogs being like, you know, all sorts of things. Poor Chris Murphy. So I think my book did have an impact in that they got Chris Murphy. into a lot of trouble for embracing the term. So people seem to have an issue with it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. I talk about the story of how, you know, I’m always having to say I’m a U S citizen when I’m back home, because it’s a border point, it’s an entry point. And we were always told to say U S citizens, not American citizen, because of this notion of you can be for many part of the Americas. What does that mean? So I think even just that specification of U S citizen was just ingrained in me at such an early age. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to focus on language because there is that notion of American and citizen. And so I want to start with you Javier about if either of those words, American or citizen resonate more with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">None – I’ve never considered myself either. You know, I’ve been, especially since the second administration Trump presidency began, I’ve really been looking at my own trajectory into obtaining papeles. You know, I finally get a green card, When? During the first Trump administration, I’ve had a green card for six years now. And I haven’t applied to become a citizen. And so for me it’s like now that I don’t have to look over my shoulder as much, or so I thought, now we’re learning in this presidency that, oh, a green card is also not as safe as you once thought. And now even facing this very real and almost urgent question for myself because I have to either apply to renew my green card or apply for citizenship next year. And so I’m like, why would I want to become? And what does that mean? What am I gaining? I am gaining a vote. You know, I’ve never voted in my life. Not in El Salvador, I’m not here. But is that, is it political citizenship? What am I gaining socially? I don’t think I will be gaining anything else that I don’t already have. So what is the difference? So I don’t know. I am with you. I’m still actively thinking about it every single day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you in a similar situation where you think about it every day, about whether you choose one of those words over another, American or citizen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, my life is not filled with a lot of choices and that’s also not a choice I’m given. So, um, I’m fine with whatever people want to call me so long as it’s not a slur. I guess I do identify as an immigrant. I am naturalized as a citizen, but my brain developed under a certain set of circumstances, and I have a certain set of skills, like I said. So you don’t stop being an immigrant at any point in the legalization process. There is a process of like acculturation. There’s a process with assimilation or not. There’s like so many like things, there’s like code switching. There’s, there’s a certain set of experiences, I think that do unite immigrants but I don’t think that, I don’t think you really stop being an immigrant because it is sort of about being someone who doesn’t have a place that necessarily wants to claim them. And they are kind of looking out for themselves and looking for a place of safety and freedom and dignity. And then you’re willing to move for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I do wanna focus and pivot us a little bit to the future. And I wanna ask in this moment, what do you think we’ve started to understand if anything at all or what is exposed now about the idea of American citizenship?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the empire is crumbling. We can see it. I think that settler colonial colony that the United States is showing its framework. And so for me, you know, the answer, because I do think that artists and writers should look at what is wrong with the world, but also dream of something to provide or gift for the future. For me, I think the answer is easy. The answer was here before white people showed up.It took me 30 plus years for me to even begin to identify as Native, as Indigenous, which I also am. And I think a lot of us in the Latina community are still carrying that shame of being part Black, part Indigenous, and we want to be proud of the small percentage of Spanish or European blood that we have. But that’s not the answer. That is the poison that we within us and we do. And so what is left for the future? For me, the future is looking back and imagining a Turtle Island or the Americas before any white man came here. You know, that is where the answers lie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Karla, are you optimistic about what we can anticipate? Not necessarily in this current administration, but for the years to come, the next 20, 30 years. Will the conversation surrounding citizenship and people who are undocumented, do you think it’ll change or will be kind of what we’ve experienced for generations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Karla Cornejo Villavicencio: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I’m optimistic every day because that’s what keeps me going and that’s why keeps me alive and committing to the human social experiment. But I definitely don’t believe in a utopia ever materializing. I think human beings are bad and selfish and desirous of power in ways that cannot really be trusted. This is something that happened slowly and it happened over time. and it involved the participation and non-participation of a lot of people. And so I would say we need to have people who believe in democracy, even though it might be an illusion and it might be a myth and it may be a pyramid scheme. Like so many things are, like love or religion, like faith, these are things that become real because you all participate in a collective delusion about it. And so I think that people who care to participate in the delusion of democracy, when you could participate in the delusion of many other things, they should run for office. They should become judges. They should become lawyers. They should become doctors who work at free clinics. How do you use yourself and your safety if you are a person who is safe to contribute to the safety of people who have literally no rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wanna thank both of you for sharing a lot of yourselves, a lot of your experiences and providing your insight on this very difficult topic, especially because of what’s happening politically in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Javier Zamora:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you wanna follow them and get any of their works, all you have to do is go to our show notes. We will show you how to follow them on social, buy their books, and support everything that they’ve got going on. So please do that. And also, if you want to send us any information about your own story or anything you wanna see represented on hyphenation, just email us at hyp at kqed.org. Thank you all for listening. Hasta luego. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Benett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Latino cultures, it’s often expected that we someday become caregivers for our parents or other family members. Anyone who has taken on this role can tell you that it’s hard and demands some big sacrifices. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gets together with poet Yosimar Reyes and professor Anita Tijerina Revilla to talk about the struggle of sacrificing to be a caregiver while trying not to lose yourself in the needs of others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1200585640&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/A4EBUctBRb8\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar Reyes (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/yosirey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/ \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://yosimarreyes.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">poetry\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Anita Tijerina Revilla (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mujer_fiera/\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s say in the next couple of minutes you were to get a phone call from, I don’t know, your sister, and she says something’s wrong with mom. They don’t quite know what it is, but just to be safe, they’re gonna take her to the emergency room.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, maybe you’re like me and you live thousands of miles away from your immediate family. You’ve got a new job, you’ve got a few friends, maybe somebody special that’s keeping you rooted in this new city. But most of all, you probably have a routine. The thing you’ve worked really hard to craft and maintain so you can live life the way that you want, and on the terms that you’ve chosen, because that is one of the advantages of being grown and an adult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But your sister calls you back, and the doctor is saying a few things that you don’t understand, some things that you do, but you don’t want to hear it, because it starts to become very real. This is happening and I’m not ready, but it’s mom, so routine, ni que nada– I would drop everything to help her, right? Even move back home?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m the son of aging parents so at some point, I’m gonna be confronted with this very real situation, and I think I know what I would do. But will I actually go through with it when push comes to shove?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today I want to ask, what are we willing to sacrifice right now in order to care for a loved one? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m really happy to have this conversation today with two folks who have been a bit vocal about this very personal topic. The first is poet and writer, Yosimar Reyes, who has spoken openly not only about migration, queerness, but also about being a caretaker for his grandmother. So Josimar, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna share a photo that Yosimar gave us as a team to be able to share with our audience. Yosimar, who is this wonderful woman in this photo, and did you have a nickname for her? Did she have a name for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody, this is my Abuelita, Madonia Galeana Dionisio. Her nickname for me was Gordo, I’ve always been known as Gordo. And for her, we just call her Abuelita or Mama Doña would be the name that we everybody referenced her as.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love and slightly hate that I feel like growing up, everybody’s nickname for children is having to do with weight. Like either you’re Flaquito, you’re Morenito, you’re Pretito. I mean, obviously that’s more skin tone, but \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, usually your parents are your first bully, so you get conditioned into facing the world through them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just have a little bit of a thicker skin because of it. But thank you so much for joining us, Yosimar, for this conversation. And also joining us is Profe Anita Tijerina Revilla, who is department chair for the Chicanx and Latinx Studies Department at Cal State LA, who’s also talked about queer Latinidad and about her own journey as a caretaker for her niece and nephew and also for her sister. So Profe, thank you so much for joining us. And we also have a photo that we’d like to share. And who are these? Cute little critters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saludos, thank you for having me. These are my niece and nephew, also my son and daughter. I adopted them a few years ago. This is Ray on the right and Michael right next to me and myself, Ray and Michael, my niece and nephew, also my daughter and son.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they call me honey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Honey! Ooh, has that has, has it always been honey or has there been a journey to arrive to honey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey works really well for the kids Because. I am their tía but I’m more than their tia and their mother is very much a part of their lives so we didn’t, I didn’t want them to call me mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey is so sweet. And there’s such a term of it’s such a term endearment regardless, like anybody who can call you honey, there’s already an element of love that you can’t hide from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m excited for us to have this conversation because it is rooted in family. And a lot of what’s happening for me and my family is we’re approaching that point where we’re caretaking and caregiving, which I’m gonna use interchangeably, but this notion of being at home to care for a loved one, it’s kind of coming close. So I’m approaching that process of when I’m going to need to go home to be a caretaker for one of my parents. And I want to start with you, Yosimar, if you don’t mind, because maybe a few days ago, you did post something on your Instagram that was about this caretaking journey for you. So I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about the decision to first even become a caretaker for your grandmother. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so I’m originally from the state of Guerrero, Mexico. I migrated to the United States when I was three years old, and it was my grandma who actually carried me across the journey to bring me to this country. And when we landed here, like so many young people, I was 3, so my mom wanted me to go live with her, but my grandma was part of those formative years, and so I thought my grandma my mom, so I had this affinity towards her, and I always wanted to be with her. Um, and so my relationship with her has always been me and my grandparents. I’m the one that grew up with my grandparents, um, but, uh, once I graduated college, I went to live in Los Angeles and I was there for about five years. And then COVID happened. And I think one of the interesting things I am based out of San Jose, California, um during that time, five zip codes were disproportionately impacted by positive COVID cases. My grandma was part of one of those zip codes. And so I think out of that, I saw her getting older. I saw just, you know, her just aging. And so, I decided to make the choice of like, I need to leave to go back home and help her. And yeah, I think that’s when I– it wasn’t an active choice, but more like something natural that was just happening and then I decided to move back home and that’s how I ended up taking on the role. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you wouldn’t say it was necessarily because there was this expectation that Yosimar at some point is going to move back home, take care of Abuelita, that it felt more of an in the moment decision because of the global pandemic that was happening that was forcing us to rethink how we were approaching things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it was just a natural course. I think for me, one of the things that happened between the relationship with me and my grandparents is that you just know what’s instinctively, you just know, like this is what I need to do or like that. And it didn’t necessarily feel like a burden or it didn’ feel like I was making a sacrifice or making a choice. I was like, this is my calling and this is the next step that I need do. But back then, I didn’t have language to call it what it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you’re saying a calling because I want to ask you, Profe Anita, if you think that for you being a caretaker for your niece and nephew was a calling, or if it was something else that you had to in the moment figure out how to respond to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s funny, I do not think it was a calling, I think it was codependence. You know, I’ll tell you a little bit about me and my life. I grew up with a single parent. She was widowed at the age of 30. She had three kids and she always put herself last, right? And so codependence literally means that you take care of everybody at your own expense. And so for me, what happened is my sister had grown up, this is my little sister and I have an older brother too, but she had grown with depression her whole life. We knew it since she was little. And later on in life, she was clinically diagnosed as bipolar, having bipolar experience and schizoaffective disorder. And it wasn’t until maybe she turned 30 that she started to show or exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia and what other people call madness right? Yeah, she started to have delusions and she started having like a deep paranoia. And so it was also connected to drug addiction and the drug addiction was connected to her depression. And so all of this is like, again, as I’ve learned little by little, I’ve come to understand my sister’s experience more. But back then, all I knew is that my sister was sick and something was happening that we didn’t understand. She had two small children. They were three and four years old. And the first time she got hospitalized, she was arrested and brutalized by police merely for exhibiting this anger and this madness. And so she was in the hospital right after she was in jail, I had to fight to get her out. And when she got out, she came directly to live with me. It was my, maybe, second year as an assistant professor in Las Vegas. I had just started my career and I had worked my whole life not to be a parent, especially not a teen mom or a single parent. Those were things that were stigmatized with me growing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, of course, I honor single mothers and single parents just like my mother, but that’s not what I wanted to be. I wanted it to have a career. And the only reason I even went to college and wanted a career was to take care of my impoverished family because I had come to believe through my mother that having that education would allow me to help pull them out of their poverty. And so little by little, those are the messages that I got. You have to take care of your family, and you have to sacrifice your life to take care of the people in your family. And I accepted it with lots of love, but I don’t think there was really choice involved, right? It was a limited choice and it wasn’t until much later that I actually said yeah, I did make a choice and I’m grateful that I had that opportunity and it’s one of the most powerful experiences I’ve ever had to be able to parent children who are now 20 and 21 years old. They’re adults and so I feel honored to have been their safety and the person who took care of them. But back then, I was mourning and grieving my life, the life that I had as a single queer person starting a job in Las Vegas as a women’s studies professor. It was one of the hardest things that I’ve ever had to do is to parent when I didn’t plan on doing it, especially for children that young. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I definitely understand the point that you’re, you’re making. You did say about, uh, you felt like you sacrificed your life and I’m curious, Yosimar, you did say that, you’ve reflected and you said that it was a calling to be able to help your grandmother, but did you think that there was a moment where you were sacrificing your life? And unable to do things that you had already put in your head that you wanted to accomplish as an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think similar to Anita, I think one of the things that happened within my life is we grew up poor. I think, I used to say the term working class, but no. I think we need to name it– poverty. The thing with growing up poor is that it’s silent violence because you’re not aware of what you need. You’re not aware and I think poverty adds a different level to these circumstances in which I felt guilty. Here I am living in Los Angeles in a two bedroom apartment in Boyle Heights, having my fun after college years. I have a roommate, throwing parties. I have my own room, I have my own washer and dryer. I have all this stability. And then I would travel back home where my grandma stayed there sleeping on the living room couch. She’s still recycling bottles and cans. My brother’s sleeping on the floor. I have another cousin in the living room. And I just remember going to visit her and how much I hated the poverty in which she was living. But she loved it. This is all she known. This is a life she known, and I just feel a certain guilt. How is it that I’m traveling the country, that I am speaking at these prestigious universities, and my grandma is still living in the same apartment than since we arrived in this country? Yeah, of course there were moments where I didn’t want this responsibility. I wanna be myself. And then I think all the other layers that were undocumented. So it’s like this added layer of poverty, undocumented, all this stuff. And then that was the big tug of war of realizing like, damn, like, I’d see other people excelling in their careers. I can’t do that. I can move to New York and focus on my writing and live this writer dream because I have these people depending on me. But I think I would fight it a lot. I would have these moments of tension in which I was like, ah, why does it have to be me? Like, I don’t wanna do this. But then there was these beautiful, beautiful moments that I was, maybe because I’m a poet, I was ah this is sacred and something really beautiful and something that I don’t think not a lot of people get to experience and then when I had those moments it just made sense \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, Profe Anita, like, about this tug of war, was there a moment because you did mention this, it was a huge sacrifice, this is not what you wanted but your life was taken in a direction that you had not anticipated, so was there time where there was a beautiful moment, or what was one of the earliest signs of that this could be an opportunity for you to feel grateful for being in this position as caretaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s a fluid experience. It’s not a moment. It’s like you wake up in the morning, you think these babies are beautiful. They’re making you laugh. You’re hugging them and loving them. and then all of a sudden one of them has a meltdown and you have to go to work and your friends are going out and you’re not going out or you used to stay up till two or three in the morning and you have to go sleep. You’re falling asleep at 10 o’clock and can’t do your work but then you see them sleeping and they look beautiful. So there are many moments where you wonder like, wow, how did this become my experience? And I feel bad for the kids because they’ve heard me multiple times say, like, I didn’t plan to have children. My intention was to be child-free, not childless, child-free. And so I made the decision because I had already been parenting people. I was the one that was going to go to college and the one was going to take care of all these things because I was responsible. And so the fact was I had already been parenting. And so when I rece ived the children, I did it because I love them so much that I didn’t want them to be in danger. And I have to honor my sister in her choice because someone who is struggling with mental illness or drug addiction, they don’t always. They’re not always willing to release their children and let them be taken care of by someone else. But my sister trusted me. She had a deep trust and a deep love for me. And so she said, I’m going to need you to take care of the kids because I can’t do it. I can take care of myself, and I can take care of them, and they will be safer with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. We’re actually going to take a quick break and be back with more Hyphenación.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar, I want to ask you something that Profe Anita mentioned, which I feel like I’m going to struggle with is the ability to just be honest with whoever you’re caring for and mention the moments of frustration, mention the moments of joy. And just being transparent about how you’re feeling every step of the way. Was it easy for you to be open and transparent with your grandma about just anything that you were experiencing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think one of the funny things about my grandma is that she was witty. My grandma was 89, 90, but that homegirl was…sharp!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, good for her! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was hilarious because we would go out to doctor’s appointments and also my I wasn’t babying her like she’s an adult she’s a grown woman so I wouldn’t necessarily baby her so if we’re arguing at a doctor’s office I’m like I’m sure people think this is elder abuse but this is how we get along like I could talk to her you know people review their grandma’s in a certain way but I grew up with her so she’s like my my friend so um but there was this moment where we would get into it because we’re so caught up and we were like, just fight, right? And she would get me frustrated because es bien terca. She wouldn’t do things. I would argue about her medications. One of the things about my grandma is that she didn’t trust doctors. So she was very much about, I’m gonna do it my way. And so we would tug a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">¡Me están mintiendo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Como, ese doctor no más te quiere enfermo para sacarte dinero. I’m like, girl, you’re on medi-cal. You’re not paying them. So, chill out. But then it was funny because obviously, my grandma, she was an emotional manipulator. So she would get mad at me and then shut down. I’ll come home and all the lights are off. And I’m, like, okay, this girl is going through it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or she would lock herself or she would go pretend that she’s sleeping in the garage. I’m like, girl, why do you have to sleep in the car? Do you have a bed? Like all these emotional manipulations, you know, all of that. But then I have to be like the conscientious one and I’m like, okay, she’s older. Let me give it. And then I’ll be like, I will eat them. I just want to apologize to you. I just wanna tell you that you’re not a burden to me. You’re the biggest gift I ever had. And I’m so sorry if I get frustrated with you, but sometimes this is very difficult because I’m doing so much and I just want to let you know that it’s not you. I love you and I care for you. And then she would be like, “I know.” And then we would hug it out. And we would have these episodes. We would have this telenovela episodes. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then I started to teach my grandma how to use her words instead of these things. Like, hey, if you need space, you can just tell me, hey, right now I’m feeling a little sad. And it’s interesting because she started learning words like siento depresión, o me siento triste. Something that it’s not very common. I don’t think it’s very common in Latino, monolingual, Spanish. Deciré, tengo una tristeza. And then I would like, okay, let’s process it. What do we need to do? Or like, oh, let me, let us go walk or let’s, and sometimes it was hard because she, I understood she was, my grandma was so isolated.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of the things that people don’t realize is that my grandma is very independent. So she’s used to making movidas on her own. And now because she’s older, she can’t necessarily go out to the store by herself. there’s certain things that she can’t do. So her life became reduced into somebody watching her. And I think one of the biggest things that I learned was the fact that this country doesn’t facilitate for you to think outside of your immediate needs. So for someone to come and take time to take her to a restaurant or take time to take her to the park, it was a lot. And so I think for her also realizing that she needed someone was a very hard, and that’s where the depression came.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Prof. Anita, I want to ask because… Part of the, the caretaking journey sometimes is that there’s a difference of generations and we speak different languages. So I’m wondering if, if you had to, to deal with this interesting perspective of you were having to communicate with youngins who might not. Understand where you’re coming from because the lived experience is so different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a great question. I think as a first-gen college-educated person, I was already dealing with that. All of this, when I talk about the kids, I can’t talk about it without talking about my mom, too. So from the very beginning, when I first read Gloria Anzaldua, Borderlands, La Frontera, I called my mom up. I’m like, mom, why didn’t you teach me more Spanish? I used to speak Spanish before I started school. Why didn’t you continue? And she’s like mija they used to punish us, you know hit us with rulers. The white nuns would punish us for speaking in Spanish so I taught you English so that they wouldn’t do that to you. And so I did the work of teaching my mom what Chicana meant, what feminist meant. I taught her about colorism because my family is the darker one. My father was very dark skinned, Indigenous. So little by little, I was trying to teach my mom and also reclaim our cultural identity and our pride and remove all of the internalized racism that we had grown up with, similar to the sexism, et cetera. So when the kids came into my life, I did the same thing with them. Like I said, they were three and four years old. And I remember distinctly, Michael, either was three or four. And he asked me like, “Honey, why do you have a girlfriend?” I had a girlfriend at the time. It was my first partner after I became a parent. And I said oh, that’s because um I love her and she’s I’m in a relationship with her she’s my girlfriend and I said and he said “But why don’t you have a boyfriend” I said well I actually and at the time identified as bisexual, now I identify as queer and fluid but I said I’m bisexual so that means I can love boys or girls and it doesn’t matter to me you know if they’re a boy or girl I can still love them. And he said, “You know what honey, I think I’m bisexual too.” four years old. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, just so you know, whoever you love, whoever, you want to be a boyfriend or girlfriend that’s always going to be accepted in our home.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will say, uh, one of the things that’s possible when you’re physically with someone is getting to talk at all hours of the day, you know, during dinner, whenever the moment feels right and just learning about the person you’re with. And so I want to ask you, starting with you, What is something that you learned from your grandmother that you don’t think you would have ever had the chance to do unless you had all of that access to her?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I, my grandma, you know, passed away in November, and I think not just because she passed away, I think I always knew my grandma as like this magical person. I’m like, Oh, I’d say it takes a really powerful person to raise a little queer child and to not murder their spirit. And my grandma never, my Grandma was an alcahueta. If I wanted something, she would make it work. And I think my grandma maybe was that because she was trying to make up for the mother that she couldn’t be to her daughters. And that’s when I got a complex idea of my grandma. My grandma was in survival mode. And so her way of parenting her daughters was probably not the kindness or not the most. And so now that she’s older, she’s confronting that because everything comes back. And so maybe the relationship with her daughters is not that close or it’s turbulent because they haven’t spoken about this and there hasn’t been a sorry. And so I think there was this constant thing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for me, I can’t speak to that because my grandmother was never that to me. And so I had the patience that obviously my mom or my aunts necessarily didn’t have with her, but I did. And so, I think what I learned was that, to view my grandmother’s life with compassion and now that she’s older, to confront her or to talk to her and see, listen, maybe it’s time you forgive yourself for what you didn’t do and think about the things that you did do. And so I think my-the most biggest thing of spending time with someone that’s elderly and someone that confronting their mortality is making sure that they make amends with the guilt or the shame that they carry. And so I’m happy to say that I was helping my grandma gravitate toward that and that I able to honor, ‘You were on survival mode, it’s not your fault. And look, look how far you made it. Look how you shifted. And yes you fucked up. There’s moments that you fuck up as a human life is not that. But I want you to tell you that at the end of the day, the impact in your legacy, the way people speak about your character, the way people thank you for the things that you’ve done for them, it’s very dynamic. So you also need to be kind to yourself.’ And so I think that was the biggest thing to be able to look at my grandma in the complexities of the things where she did mess up but also the compassion of saying you did the best that you could with what you had. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. Profe Anita, I want to ask you sort of the inverse of that, especially because we started this conversation with you talking about the very real sensation of this is not how you thought your life was going to go. So what is something you learned about yourself now that you are Honey and, uh, you’ve been doing this for almost 20 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the thing that I learned about myself was that I had to figure out a way to take care of myself and my body, mind and spirit even while I was taking care of everyone else. Like, I even before I got the kids, I already was putting other people’s needs before my own. I was a people pleaser, always wanted everybody to love me and to accept me, especially because I grew up thinking I was unlovable. I, you know, grew up different. I have a different hand and a lot of people bullied me for my hand and I thought I would grow up to not have love. And so I think with the kids, I realized like I have to figure out what I need to heal myself because I want to be a parent that parents from a space of healing, that parents from a place of liberation versus fear. I was living my life through my mom’s trauma, and so I had to figure out how to heal, release her trauma and heal my own trauma. And I don’t think I would have gotten as far as I have without the kids. They hold me accountable. They use my words against me. They throw my feminism in my face, and they say they’re not as easily… convinced when I tell them something is good or bad. They challenged me and I like my mom taught me I taught them you have a voice\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, you have a voice. Thats so powerful. I want to thank each of your for opening up and being as vulnerable as you have been on this very difficult topic. But I think it’s helping me, its helping other folks that are on the precipice of this journey for themselves. So I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to go in depth for what this experience has been like for you. So I want to thank you each for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want it to our listeners that if you want to follow our guests, I will put all of their socials, where you can find them online, all of the written works, that will all be in the show notes. And if you wanna communicate with us as a Hyphenation show… You can send us an email at HYP at KQED.org so we can know what you want to talk about on our program. But again, just want to say thanks to our guests and thanks to you for being here for this chat. Until next time. Hasta Lleugo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Bennett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Latino cultures, it’s often expected that we someday become caregivers for our parents or other family members. Anyone who has taken on this role can tell you that it’s hard and demands some big sacrifices. This week on Hyphenación, host Xorje Olivares gets together with poet Yosimar Reyes and professor Anita Tijerina Revilla to talk about the struggle of sacrificing to be a caregiver while trying not to lose yourself in the needs of others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1200585640&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Watch this episode on YouTube\u003c/h2>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/A4EBUctBRb8'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/A4EBUctBRb8'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar Reyes (\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/yosirey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/ \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://yosimarreyes.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">poetry\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">)\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Anita Tijerina Revilla (\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mujer_fiera/\">Instagram\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the series or have an idea to share? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:hyp@kqed.org\">hyp@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares, Host:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s say in the next couple of minutes you were to get a phone call from, I don’t know, your sister, and she says something’s wrong with mom. They don’t quite know what it is, but just to be safe, they’re gonna take her to the emergency room.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, maybe you’re like me and you live thousands of miles away from your immediate family. You’ve got a new job, you’ve got a few friends, maybe somebody special that’s keeping you rooted in this new city. But most of all, you probably have a routine. The thing you’ve worked really hard to craft and maintain so you can live life the way that you want, and on the terms that you’ve chosen, because that is one of the advantages of being grown and an adult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But your sister calls you back, and the doctor is saying a few things that you don’t understand, some things that you do, but you don’t want to hear it, because it starts to become very real. This is happening and I’m not ready, but it’s mom, so routine, ni que nada– I would drop everything to help her, right? Even move back home?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m the son of aging parents so at some point, I’m gonna be confronted with this very real situation, and I think I know what I would do. But will I actually go through with it when push comes to shove?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today I want to ask, what are we willing to sacrifice right now in order to care for a loved one? This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m really happy to have this conversation today with two folks who have been a bit vocal about this very personal topic. The first is poet and writer, Yosimar Reyes, who has spoken openly not only about migration, queerness, but also about being a caretaker for his grandmother. So Josimar, thank you so much for joining us today. And I wanna share a photo that Yosimar gave us as a team to be able to share with our audience. Yosimar, who is this wonderful woman in this photo, and did you have a nickname for her? Did she have a name for you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everybody, this is my Abuelita, Madonia Galeana Dionisio. Her nickname for me was Gordo, I’ve always been known as Gordo. And for her, we just call her Abuelita or Mama Doña would be the name that we everybody referenced her as.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love and slightly hate that I feel like growing up, everybody’s nickname for children is having to do with weight. Like either you’re Flaquito, you’re Morenito, you’re Pretito. I mean, obviously that’s more skin tone, but \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, usually your parents are your first bully, so you get conditioned into facing the world through them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just have a little bit of a thicker skin because of it. But thank you so much for joining us, Yosimar, for this conversation. And also joining us is Profe Anita Tijerina Revilla, who is department chair for the Chicanx and Latinx Studies Department at Cal State LA, who’s also talked about queer Latinidad and about her own journey as a caretaker for her niece and nephew and also for her sister. So Profe, thank you so much for joining us. And we also have a photo that we’d like to share. And who are these? Cute little critters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Saludos, thank you for having me. These are my niece and nephew, also my son and daughter. I adopted them a few years ago. This is Ray on the right and Michael right next to me and myself, Ray and Michael, my niece and nephew, also my daughter and son.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they call me honey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Honey! Ooh, has that has, has it always been honey or has there been a journey to arrive to honey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey works really well for the kids Because. I am their tía but I’m more than their tia and their mother is very much a part of their lives so we didn’t, I didn’t want them to call me mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honey is so sweet. And there’s such a term of it’s such a term endearment regardless, like anybody who can call you honey, there’s already an element of love that you can’t hide from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m excited for us to have this conversation because it is rooted in family. And a lot of what’s happening for me and my family is we’re approaching that point where we’re caretaking and caregiving, which I’m gonna use interchangeably, but this notion of being at home to care for a loved one, it’s kind of coming close. So I’m approaching that process of when I’m going to need to go home to be a caretaker for one of my parents. And I want to start with you, Yosimar, if you don’t mind, because maybe a few days ago, you did post something on your Instagram that was about this caretaking journey for you. So I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about the decision to first even become a caretaker for your grandmother. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so I’m originally from the state of Guerrero, Mexico. I migrated to the United States when I was three years old, and it was my grandma who actually carried me across the journey to bring me to this country. And when we landed here, like so many young people, I was 3, so my mom wanted me to go live with her, but my grandma was part of those formative years, and so I thought my grandma my mom, so I had this affinity towards her, and I always wanted to be with her. Um, and so my relationship with her has always been me and my grandparents. I’m the one that grew up with my grandparents, um, but, uh, once I graduated college, I went to live in Los Angeles and I was there for about five years. And then COVID happened. And I think one of the interesting things I am based out of San Jose, California, um during that time, five zip codes were disproportionately impacted by positive COVID cases. My grandma was part of one of those zip codes. And so I think out of that, I saw her getting older. I saw just, you know, her just aging. And so, I decided to make the choice of like, I need to leave to go back home and help her. And yeah, I think that’s when I– it wasn’t an active choice, but more like something natural that was just happening and then I decided to move back home and that’s how I ended up taking on the role. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you wouldn’t say it was necessarily because there was this expectation that Yosimar at some point is going to move back home, take care of Abuelita, that it felt more of an in the moment decision because of the global pandemic that was happening that was forcing us to rethink how we were approaching things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think it was just a natural course. I think for me, one of the things that happened between the relationship with me and my grandparents is that you just know what’s instinctively, you just know, like this is what I need to do or like that. And it didn’t necessarily feel like a burden or it didn’ feel like I was making a sacrifice or making a choice. I was like, this is my calling and this is the next step that I need do. But back then, I didn’t have language to call it what it is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that you’re saying a calling because I want to ask you, Profe Anita, if you think that for you being a caretaker for your niece and nephew was a calling, or if it was something else that you had to in the moment figure out how to respond to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s funny, I do not think it was a calling, I think it was codependence. You know, I’ll tell you a little bit about me and my life. I grew up with a single parent. She was widowed at the age of 30. She had three kids and she always put herself last, right? And so codependence literally means that you take care of everybody at your own expense. And so for me, what happened is my sister had grown up, this is my little sister and I have an older brother too, but she had grown with depression her whole life. We knew it since she was little. And later on in life, she was clinically diagnosed as bipolar, having bipolar experience and schizoaffective disorder. And it wasn’t until maybe she turned 30 that she started to show or exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia and what other people call madness right? Yeah, she started to have delusions and she started having like a deep paranoia. And so it was also connected to drug addiction and the drug addiction was connected to her depression. And so all of this is like, again, as I’ve learned little by little, I’ve come to understand my sister’s experience more. But back then, all I knew is that my sister was sick and something was happening that we didn’t understand. She had two small children. They were three and four years old. And the first time she got hospitalized, she was arrested and brutalized by police merely for exhibiting this anger and this madness. And so she was in the hospital right after she was in jail, I had to fight to get her out. And when she got out, she came directly to live with me. It was my, maybe, second year as an assistant professor in Las Vegas. I had just started my career and I had worked my whole life not to be a parent, especially not a teen mom or a single parent. Those were things that were stigmatized with me growing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, of course, I honor single mothers and single parents just like my mother, but that’s not what I wanted to be. I wanted it to have a career. And the only reason I even went to college and wanted a career was to take care of my impoverished family because I had come to believe through my mother that having that education would allow me to help pull them out of their poverty. And so little by little, those are the messages that I got. You have to take care of your family, and you have to sacrifice your life to take care of the people in your family. And I accepted it with lots of love, but I don’t think there was really choice involved, right? It was a limited choice and it wasn’t until much later that I actually said yeah, I did make a choice and I’m grateful that I had that opportunity and it’s one of the most powerful experiences I’ve ever had to be able to parent children who are now 20 and 21 years old. They’re adults and so I feel honored to have been their safety and the person who took care of them. But back then, I was mourning and grieving my life, the life that I had as a single queer person starting a job in Las Vegas as a women’s studies professor. It was one of the hardest things that I’ve ever had to do is to parent when I didn’t plan on doing it, especially for children that young. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I definitely understand the point that you’re, you’re making. You did say about, uh, you felt like you sacrificed your life and I’m curious, Yosimar, you did say that, you’ve reflected and you said that it was a calling to be able to help your grandmother, but did you think that there was a moment where you were sacrificing your life? And unable to do things that you had already put in your head that you wanted to accomplish as an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think similar to Anita, I think one of the things that happened within my life is we grew up poor. I think, I used to say the term working class, but no. I think we need to name it– poverty. The thing with growing up poor is that it’s silent violence because you’re not aware of what you need. You’re not aware and I think poverty adds a different level to these circumstances in which I felt guilty. Here I am living in Los Angeles in a two bedroom apartment in Boyle Heights, having my fun after college years. I have a roommate, throwing parties. I have my own room, I have my own washer and dryer. I have all this stability. And then I would travel back home where my grandma stayed there sleeping on the living room couch. She’s still recycling bottles and cans. My brother’s sleeping on the floor. I have another cousin in the living room. And I just remember going to visit her and how much I hated the poverty in which she was living. But she loved it. This is all she known. This is a life she known, and I just feel a certain guilt. How is it that I’m traveling the country, that I am speaking at these prestigious universities, and my grandma is still living in the same apartment than since we arrived in this country? Yeah, of course there were moments where I didn’t want this responsibility. I wanna be myself. And then I think all the other layers that were undocumented. So it’s like this added layer of poverty, undocumented, all this stuff. And then that was the big tug of war of realizing like, damn, like, I’d see other people excelling in their careers. I can’t do that. I can move to New York and focus on my writing and live this writer dream because I have these people depending on me. But I think I would fight it a lot. I would have these moments of tension in which I was like, ah, why does it have to be me? Like, I don’t wanna do this. But then there was these beautiful, beautiful moments that I was, maybe because I’m a poet, I was ah this is sacred and something really beautiful and something that I don’t think not a lot of people get to experience and then when I had those moments it just made sense \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious, Profe Anita, like, about this tug of war, was there a moment because you did mention this, it was a huge sacrifice, this is not what you wanted but your life was taken in a direction that you had not anticipated, so was there time where there was a beautiful moment, or what was one of the earliest signs of that this could be an opportunity for you to feel grateful for being in this position as caretaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s a fluid experience. It’s not a moment. It’s like you wake up in the morning, you think these babies are beautiful. They’re making you laugh. You’re hugging them and loving them. and then all of a sudden one of them has a meltdown and you have to go to work and your friends are going out and you’re not going out or you used to stay up till two or three in the morning and you have to go sleep. You’re falling asleep at 10 o’clock and can’t do your work but then you see them sleeping and they look beautiful. So there are many moments where you wonder like, wow, how did this become my experience? And I feel bad for the kids because they’ve heard me multiple times say, like, I didn’t plan to have children. My intention was to be child-free, not childless, child-free. And so I made the decision because I had already been parenting people. I was the one that was going to go to college and the one was going to take care of all these things because I was responsible. And so the fact was I had already been parenting. And so when I rece ived the children, I did it because I love them so much that I didn’t want them to be in danger. And I have to honor my sister in her choice because someone who is struggling with mental illness or drug addiction, they don’t always. They’re not always willing to release their children and let them be taken care of by someone else. But my sister trusted me. She had a deep trust and a deep love for me. And so she said, I’m going to need you to take care of the kids because I can’t do it. I can take care of myself, and I can take care of them, and they will be safer with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. We’re actually going to take a quick break and be back with more Hyphenación.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yosimar, I want to ask you something that Profe Anita mentioned, which I feel like I’m going to struggle with is the ability to just be honest with whoever you’re caring for and mention the moments of frustration, mention the moments of joy. And just being transparent about how you’re feeling every step of the way. Was it easy for you to be open and transparent with your grandma about just anything that you were experiencing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think one of the funny things about my grandma is that she was witty. My grandma was 89, 90, but that homegirl was…sharp!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, good for her! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was hilarious because we would go out to doctor’s appointments and also my I wasn’t babying her like she’s an adult she’s a grown woman so I wouldn’t necessarily baby her so if we’re arguing at a doctor’s office I’m like I’m sure people think this is elder abuse but this is how we get along like I could talk to her you know people review their grandma’s in a certain way but I grew up with her so she’s like my my friend so um but there was this moment where we would get into it because we’re so caught up and we were like, just fight, right? And she would get me frustrated because es bien terca. She wouldn’t do things. I would argue about her medications. One of the things about my grandma is that she didn’t trust doctors. So she was very much about, I’m gonna do it my way. And so we would tug a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">¡Me están mintiendo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Como, ese doctor no más te quiere enfermo para sacarte dinero. I’m like, girl, you’re on medi-cal. You’re not paying them. So, chill out. But then it was funny because obviously, my grandma, she was an emotional manipulator. So she would get mad at me and then shut down. I’ll come home and all the lights are off. And I’m, like, okay, this girl is going through it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, no. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or she would lock herself or she would go pretend that she’s sleeping in the garage. I’m like, girl, why do you have to sleep in the car? Do you have a bed? Like all these emotional manipulations, you know, all of that. But then I have to be like the conscientious one and I’m like, okay, she’s older. Let me give it. And then I’ll be like, I will eat them. I just want to apologize to you. I just wanna tell you that you’re not a burden to me. You’re the biggest gift I ever had. And I’m so sorry if I get frustrated with you, but sometimes this is very difficult because I’m doing so much and I just want to let you know that it’s not you. I love you and I care for you. And then she would be like, “I know.” And then we would hug it out. And we would have these episodes. We would have this telenovela episodes. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then I started to teach my grandma how to use her words instead of these things. Like, hey, if you need space, you can just tell me, hey, right now I’m feeling a little sad. And it’s interesting because she started learning words like siento depresión, o me siento triste. Something that it’s not very common. I don’t think it’s very common in Latino, monolingual, Spanish. Deciré, tengo una tristeza. And then I would like, okay, let’s process it. What do we need to do? Or like, oh, let me, let us go walk or let’s, and sometimes it was hard because she, I understood she was, my grandma was so isolated.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think one of the things that people don’t realize is that my grandma is very independent. So she’s used to making movidas on her own. And now because she’s older, she can’t necessarily go out to the store by herself. there’s certain things that she can’t do. So her life became reduced into somebody watching her. And I think one of the biggest things that I learned was the fact that this country doesn’t facilitate for you to think outside of your immediate needs. So for someone to come and take time to take her to a restaurant or take time to take her to the park, it was a lot. And so I think for her also realizing that she needed someone was a very hard, and that’s where the depression came.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Prof. Anita, I want to ask because… Part of the, the caretaking journey sometimes is that there’s a difference of generations and we speak different languages. So I’m wondering if, if you had to, to deal with this interesting perspective of you were having to communicate with youngins who might not. Understand where you’re coming from because the lived experience is so different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a great question. I think as a first-gen college-educated person, I was already dealing with that. All of this, when I talk about the kids, I can’t talk about it without talking about my mom, too. So from the very beginning, when I first read Gloria Anzaldua, Borderlands, La Frontera, I called my mom up. I’m like, mom, why didn’t you teach me more Spanish? I used to speak Spanish before I started school. Why didn’t you continue? And she’s like mija they used to punish us, you know hit us with rulers. The white nuns would punish us for speaking in Spanish so I taught you English so that they wouldn’t do that to you. And so I did the work of teaching my mom what Chicana meant, what feminist meant. I taught her about colorism because my family is the darker one. My father was very dark skinned, Indigenous. So little by little, I was trying to teach my mom and also reclaim our cultural identity and our pride and remove all of the internalized racism that we had grown up with, similar to the sexism, et cetera. So when the kids came into my life, I did the same thing with them. Like I said, they were three and four years old. And I remember distinctly, Michael, either was three or four. And he asked me like, “Honey, why do you have a girlfriend?” I had a girlfriend at the time. It was my first partner after I became a parent. And I said oh, that’s because um I love her and she’s I’m in a relationship with her she’s my girlfriend and I said and he said “But why don’t you have a boyfriend” I said well I actually and at the time identified as bisexual, now I identify as queer and fluid but I said I’m bisexual so that means I can love boys or girls and it doesn’t matter to me you know if they’re a boy or girl I can still love them. And he said, “You know what honey, I think I’m bisexual too.” four years old. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, just so you know, whoever you love, whoever, you want to be a boyfriend or girlfriend that’s always going to be accepted in our home.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will say, uh, one of the things that’s possible when you’re physically with someone is getting to talk at all hours of the day, you know, during dinner, whenever the moment feels right and just learning about the person you’re with. And so I want to ask you, starting with you, What is something that you learned from your grandmother that you don’t think you would have ever had the chance to do unless you had all of that access to her?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yosimar Reyes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I, my grandma, you know, passed away in November, and I think not just because she passed away, I think I always knew my grandma as like this magical person. I’m like, Oh, I’d say it takes a really powerful person to raise a little queer child and to not murder their spirit. And my grandma never, my Grandma was an alcahueta. If I wanted something, she would make it work. And I think my grandma maybe was that because she was trying to make up for the mother that she couldn’t be to her daughters. And that’s when I got a complex idea of my grandma. My grandma was in survival mode. And so her way of parenting her daughters was probably not the kindness or not the most. And so now that she’s older, she’s confronting that because everything comes back. And so maybe the relationship with her daughters is not that close or it’s turbulent because they haven’t spoken about this and there hasn’t been a sorry. And so I think there was this constant thing.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for me, I can’t speak to that because my grandmother was never that to me. And so I had the patience that obviously my mom or my aunts necessarily didn’t have with her, but I did. And so, I think what I learned was that, to view my grandmother’s life with compassion and now that she’s older, to confront her or to talk to her and see, listen, maybe it’s time you forgive yourself for what you didn’t do and think about the things that you did do. And so I think my-the most biggest thing of spending time with someone that’s elderly and someone that confronting their mortality is making sure that they make amends with the guilt or the shame that they carry. And so I’m happy to say that I was helping my grandma gravitate toward that and that I able to honor, ‘You were on survival mode, it’s not your fault. And look, look how far you made it. Look how you shifted. And yes you fucked up. There’s moments that you fuck up as a human life is not that. But I want you to tell you that at the end of the day, the impact in your legacy, the way people speak about your character, the way people thank you for the things that you’ve done for them, it’s very dynamic. So you also need to be kind to yourself.’ And so I think that was the biggest thing to be able to look at my grandma in the complexities of the things where she did mess up but also the compassion of saying you did the best that you could with what you had. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for sharing that. Profe Anita, I want to ask you sort of the inverse of that, especially because we started this conversation with you talking about the very real sensation of this is not how you thought your life was going to go. So what is something you learned about yourself now that you are Honey and, uh, you’ve been doing this for almost 20 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anita Tijerina Revilla: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the thing that I learned about myself was that I had to figure out a way to take care of myself and my body, mind and spirit even while I was taking care of everyone else. Like, I even before I got the kids, I already was putting other people’s needs before my own. I was a people pleaser, always wanted everybody to love me and to accept me, especially because I grew up thinking I was unlovable. I, you know, grew up different. I have a different hand and a lot of people bullied me for my hand and I thought I would grow up to not have love. And so I think with the kids, I realized like I have to figure out what I need to heal myself because I want to be a parent that parents from a space of healing, that parents from a place of liberation versus fear. I was living my life through my mom’s trauma, and so I had to figure out how to heal, release her trauma and heal my own trauma. And I don’t think I would have gotten as far as I have without the kids. They hold me accountable. They use my words against me. They throw my feminism in my face, and they say they’re not as easily… convinced when I tell them something is good or bad. They challenged me and I like my mom taught me I taught them you have a voice\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Xorje Olivares: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah, you have a voice. Thats so powerful. I want to thank each of your for opening up and being as vulnerable as you have been on this very difficult topic. But I think it’s helping me, its helping other folks that are on the precipice of this journey for themselves. So I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to go in depth for what this experience has been like for you. So I want to thank you each for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want it to our listeners that if you want to follow our guests, I will put all of their socials, where you can find them online, all of the written works, that will all be in the show notes. And if you wanna communicate with us as a Hyphenation show… You can send us an email at HYP at KQED.org so we can know what you want to talk about on our program. But again, just want to say thanks to our guests and thanks to you for being here for this chat. Until next time. Hasta Lleugo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Credits:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Mixing and mastering by Jim Bennett and Christopher Beale. Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support. Thank you to Maha Sanad and Alana Walker for their audience engagement support, to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan. Okay mi gente, cuídense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"order": 9
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"order": 15
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"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
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"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
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"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
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"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
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"meta": {
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"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
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"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 11
},
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"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
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},
"perspectives": {
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"order": 14
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"planet-money": {
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
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},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
"subscribe": {
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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