Immigrants are Dying in ICE Detention Centers. Can California Hold DHS Accountable?

The Adelanto ICE Processing Center, an immigration detention facility located northeast of Los Angeles, has been riddled with allegations of abuse, unsafe drinking water and detainees being denied medical care. In 2025, a detainee at Adelanto, Ismael Ayala Uribe, died in ICE custody after repeatedly requesting medical attention. What is happening behind the locked doors of ICE detention centers in California? What power does the state have to hold DHS accountable? Join us as we speak with journalists investigating California detention facilities and the creators of the new Al Jazeera documentary, “Dying in Detention.”

Guests:

• Jeremy Young, senior producer for Fault Lines, Al Jazeera English
• Andrea Castillo, staff writer covering immigration, LA Times

This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.

Mina Kim: Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. The Department of Homeland Security bought two more ICE detention facilities in California this month, adding to the two it bought in July in San Diego and Kern counties. This time, the purchases were of facilities in Adelanto, known for being the deadliest in the state. Four people have died there since last year, with their families alleging inadequate medical care in each case. It’s the focus of a new documentary from Al Jazeera English’s Fault Lines series called Dying in Detention.

Joining me now is Jeremy Young, senior producer on Fault Lines from Al Jazeera English and part of the team behind Dying in Detention. Jeremy, welcome to Forum.

Jeremy Young: Thank you for having me, Mina.

Mina Kim: So, in this film, you focused on Adelanto’s ICE processing center. What can you tell us about Adelanto and the people being held there?

Jeremy Young: Sure. So, the Adelanto ICE Processing Center is one of the larger detention facilities in the country, and it’s located several hours outside of Los Angeles, at the edge of the desert. And it’s had a troubled past. It’s had all kinds of different state and federal investigations, different types of allegations of abuse and medical neglect against it. At one point, there had been so much litigation and oversight that it was down to less than 10 detainees at the facility.

This, of course, changed when President Trump came into office for his second term, ramped up the crackdown, and now there’s almost 2,000 people who are detained at Adelanto today.

Mina Kim: And how long are detainees typically there? If it’s an ICE processing center, the name sort of suggests a transitional place.

Jeremy Young: Well, I mean, a lot of the vocabulary that’s used around immigration detention is puzzling, so don’t get too caught up on it. People are there who are fighting for their right to stay in this country. And it’s not clear exactly why people are deported at certain times, why people are moved around as much as they are.

But the people that we spoke to said — one detainee in particular who had children who are 9 and 11 — he said, “I’m gonna make sure my children know that I never give up and that I’m always gonna have fought to be here till the end to be with them.” So there are people in there who are really fighting to stay close to their families.

Mina Kim: So your film focused on the death of 39-year-old Ismael Ayala Uribe at Adelanto. Tell us about him.

Jeremy Young: Ismael was a 39-year-old gentleman who came to the United States at age five. He had achieved DACA status and had some protections, which he then lost, actually, when he had a conviction for a DUI. But he worked at a local car wash in Southern California for 15 years, rising through the ranks to become the right-hand man to the owner.

And most importantly, he was a son and an uncle and a brother. And we got to know his family really well and really understand how much they’re hurting and how much they miss him.

Mina Kim: Yeah, we actually have a clip of his nephew from your documentary. Let’s hear it.

Ismael’s Nephew: He was a good uncle. The kids needed something, he would always go get it. Get them school clothes, supplies, or whatever they needed, you know?

Jeremy Young: I know they do miss him.

Mina Kim: So, Jeremy, what happened to Ismael after he arrived? What made him sick?

Jeremy Young: So, you know, he basically developed an infection that went untreated, and he complained for weeks about having severe pain in his buttocks, which he rated as 10 out of 10 on a pain scale. And as far as we could tell, he was really only given Tylenol. He was supposed to be checked on twice a day, and we learned that they didn’t check on him at all.

Eventually, this infection just got worse and worse and spread into his bloodstream. He was rushed to the hospital in the middle of the night, and they were able to revive him when he arrived at the hospital. When he arrived at the hospital, he lost his pulse and needed to be intubated and revived in the emergency room. So he was in a really, really rough state when he arrived at the hospital, and he only survived for another 24 hours before he passed away.

Mina Kim: I understand it was an infected skin abscess. What does it take to treat a skin abscess?

Jeremy Young: It’s actually very treatable. We interviewed Physicians for Human Rights’ Dr. Nicholas Cunio for the documentary, and he reviewed the medical documents with us. It really takes some antibiotics and then a small incision to remove the abscess. And it’s a very, very basic procedure. And, you know, according to Physicians for Human Rights, his death was absolutely avoidable.

Mina Kim: Let’s also hear a clip from the physician.

Dr. Nicholas Cunio: If you’re arriving and, within just a few minutes, losing your pulse, that suggests that you were extremely sick and it was not adequately recognized in time to be treated effectively. It could have been purposefully obfuscating the clinical reality. I believe Ismael’s death could have fully been prevented by timely care.

Mina Kim: What is the physician saying there, Jeremy, about it possibly having been purposefully obfuscated?

Jeremy Young: Yeah, so this is really interesting to us, Mina, because, you know, this particular case had been covered quite a bit. And when we looked at the medical examiner’s investigation into his death, it included information that ICE did not include in its public report. And he was in such a severe state when he arrived at the hospital. Within minutes, he lost his pulse, and ICE did not include that information in its public report.

We’ve subsequently learned more information about what happened to Ismael, but I think one of the big takeaways is that the public reports that ICE puts out on detainee deaths omit serious information and are really problematic.

Mina Kim: We actually reached out to DHS for a comment and reaction to your documentary, and this is what they said. They said, “Allegations of subprime conditions at the Adelanto facility are false. Being in detention is a choice. We encourage all illegal aliens to take control of their departure with the CBP Home app. The U.S. is offering illegal aliens $3,000 and a free flight to self-deport now. We encourage every person here illegally to take advantage of this offer and reserve the chance to come back to the U.S. the right way to live the American dream.”

What’s your response to that?

Jeremy Young: Well, that’s quite a comment, Mina. I will say one of the important things to remind your listeners is that the overwhelming majority of people in immigration detention, more than 70%, have no criminal conviction at all. And the people that we spoke to have families. They have loved ones who live here. They have communities that rely on them. And they don’t want to get on a plane and fly away. They want to go back to being with their loved ones and being back in these communities where they mean so much and where they’ve really provided the fabric.

Mina Kim: So I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, what questions do you have about the conditions at the ICE facility in Adelanto? What are your questions? Do you have any direct experience with them? Have you had a relative inside, and have they told you about conditions inside as well?

You can join the conversation at the email address, [email protected]. You can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can give us a call at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.

So, Jeremy, as I noted in the introduction, there have been four deaths in Adelanto. Do they share similarities with Ismael’s?

Jeremy Young: They absolutely do. I mean, we interviewed the attorney general of California, Rob Bonta, for this story because the attorney general’s office has unique oversight capabilities in the state of California. And one of the things that they found was that they were not paying outside providers for medical care, and people were not being taken outside the facility to see specialists.

And so the pattern that we’ve seen has been consistently that people are denied complex medical care and, you know, have died as a result. And it’s just — I just have to remind you, Mina, the idea that someone would go to an immigration detention facility and ultimately die, I mean, I think every single death that I’ve looked at has been preventable and avoidable. And it is just an unacceptable outcome that someone expires while they’re in an immigration detention facility.

Mina Kim: In Ismael’s case, it was in a matter of five weeks. I want to bring into the conversation now Andrea Castillo, a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times who covers immigration. Andrea, thanks so much for being with us.

Andrea Castillo: Thanks for having me.

Mina Kim: You also have looked at recent court-ordered reports that documented some really harsh conditions in Adelanto. What can you tell us about the broader conditions in this facility?

Andrea Castillo: Yeah, that’s right. Immigrant rights groups filed this federal class-action lawsuit against DHS this year. They alleged poor drinking water and food, sanitation and medical care issues at the facility. A federal judge had ordered the facility to make improvements.

In August, there was a video that went viral appearing to show worm-like creatures in a bottle of water. The family of a detainee had recorded the video. And, as you noted, four people have died at that facility since last year, so the conditions do not appear to have improved.

An independent court monitor this month actually found mold and gnat larvae in the shower rooms. They found cracked and worn-out mattresses, delayed visitations, and an inadequate system to track disability accommodations. A second independent monitor, who was assigned to inspect medical conditions at the facility, told the court that he was actually prevented from accessing the facility and its medical records, so he was unable to provide an update.

Mina Kim: And Jeremy mentioned, you know, some of the issues with Adelanto have been ongoing. There was a lawsuit settlement, I understand, related to something that happened during the pandemic with COVID. What happened?

Andrea Castillo: Yeah, so I recently wrote about this settlement regarding the application of a chemical disinfectant called HDQ Neutral. The allegation was that detainees, during the early period of the pandemic, the first several months of 2020, were indiscriminately sprayed with this chemical.

Many times, you know, they were sprayed with an overly concentrated amount of the chemical. So, you know, it was supposed to be watered down, and that wasn’t happening, and nobody was given the instructions on how to actually properly use this chemical. They were spraying it directly into the air.

A whistleblower who had formerly worked at the facility ended up saying in a declaration in court that he was told to spray it like Lysol.

Mina Kim: And what health impacts did that have on people there?

Andrea Castillo: Very severe health impacts: blistering, nosebleeds, chemical burns. People would show what looked like actual burns on their arms and their extremities, anywhere that was exposed to the chemical. It was sprayed in their food, and they could taste it. Vomiting. Some people ended up with permanent eye damage and respiratory issues.

One person that I spoke to said that he has to sleep propped up by pillows now, six years after he was released from the facility, because if he doesn’t, he ends up gasping for air. He used to work as a long-haul truck driver, but he can’t pass the physical assessment now, and so he has turned to making his money through online resale.

Mina Kim: This is happening in California, at a California facility. Listeners, we’re talking about the conditions in California’s deadliest ICE facility in Adelanto, and we’ll have more with our guests and with you after the break. This is Forum. I’m Mina Kim.

Welcome back to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about the conditions inside a California ICE processing center in Adelanto, where four people have died since Trump took office.

We’re talking about it with Jeremy Young, part of the team behind the documentary that looked deeply at Adelanto and the death of Ismael Ayala Uribe, in a film called Dying in Detention, part of Fault Lines, the series for Al Jazeera English. Andrea Castillo is also with us, a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times who covers immigration.

And listeners, what are your questions about conditions at ICE facilities in California, at the jail in Adelanto? What are your questions about what happens now that the federal government has purchased the Adelanto facility? Do you have any direct experience with ICE centers? Have you had anyone that you know inside one, and what have they told you about the conditions?

You can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786. You can email [email protected] and post on our social channels on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.

Jeremy, one of the things that you noted, in addition to the broader conditions we were hearing about from you and Andrea in Adelanto, is that detainees were telling you about quite a bit of physical abuse, that some are being beaten.

Jeremy Young: That’s right. As at other detention facilities across the country, detainees came together as part of a hunger strike and refused to eat the food that was provided by the facility. And the individuals who we spoke to allege that they were beaten for participating in the hunger strike.

They said that they were thrown into solitary confinement to be made an example of for participating in the hunger strike. And others were fast-tracked for deportation out of the country for participating in the hunger strike and raising awareness about the conditions.

Mina Kim: So, Andrea, all of this happened while the facility was being owned by GEO Group. What can you tell us about GEO Group?

Andrea Castillo: GEO Group is one of the top private prison operators in the country, along with another company called CoreCivic. They own and operate the majority of detention space in the country. At the start of this administration, almost 90% of the detention space across the country was owned and operated by these types of companies.

But now, though, that has started to change. The federal government is starting to buy up some of these facilities, although they will continue being managed by these private prison companies, which, in addition to operating detention facilities for immigration purposes, also operate prisons across the country.

Mina Kim: So, given the fact that GEO Group will continue to operate the detention center, it sounds like conditions are not expected to change much there, at least from what we’ve seen so far. Is that correct? How much did GEO Group sell this to DHS for?

Andrea Castillo: Well, these facilities are worth millions of dollars. The sales are made possible by this infusion last year of $45 billion in tax dollars for immigration detention from President Trump’s One Big Beautiful Bill Act. And so far, DHS has spent more than $2 billion on six of these detention centers, including four in California. And so…

Mina Kim: Could it be possible that the harsh conditions could worsen? And I only ask this because it sounds like the federal government felt a need to buy these to be able to run them however they wished.

Andrea Castillo: I think that’s a possibility. One of the reasons for these purchases is as a way to push back on state and local oversight laws. California, of course, has some of the strongest oversight laws over these detention facilities in the country. The governor signed more than 20 bills just last month that are aimed at continuing to push back against the Trump administration’s immigration agenda.

And so, you know, they have been very clear — and when I say they, I mean DHS and the owners and operators of these detention facilities — about wanting protection from what they call “unwarranted litigation.” That’s a direct quote from George Zoley, who’s the CEO of the GEO Group. You know, they have these quarterly calls with shareholders, and earlier this year, that was what he told them: that they want to protect against these lawsuits around medical care and other detention conditions.

Jeremy Young: And, Mina, I’ll add, it’s a real concern because the law that allows the attorney general to investigate these private prison facilities — you know, it was a law that was passed by the state legislature in California, and changing these to being federally owned facilities potentially could change their ability to do oversight and to investigate. So it’s a major concern.

Mina Kim: Let me go to caller Crawford in Oakland. Crawford, go ahead. You’re on.

Crawford: Hey, I’m an emergency medical technician, and I was listening just a few minutes ago when you mentioned that an individual, after being exposed to a chemical, now has to sleep propped up on pillows. And I’m not a physician, but to me, that sounds most similar to a condition called pulmonary edema, which is when the small sacs that exchange oxygen in your lungs can actually fill with — in a lot of cases, it’s a type of interstitial fluid, or it could even be, you know, blood, to be blunt.

And I can only imagine even more people exposed to that industrial chemical could develop that symptom over time. It’s a condition that generally takes a while to actually manifest. And I can also imagine that if more people are being exposed to these kinds of harsh industrial chemicals, pulmonary edema is generally a common side effect of being exposed to the substance.

So I wanted people to understand that that’s not just sleeping propped up on pillows because it’s comfortable. Sleeping propped up on pillows is because if you don’t, you can choke. Your body won’t be able to exchange oxygen, and you can die. So that’s a very serious complication, and I’m shocked, honestly. I’m on my way to work right now.

Mina Kim: Well, Crawford, thank you for sharing what you know about this. And Andrea, I mean, as we said, this was something that was sued over because it was used on people during COVID, and I’m wondering, do you know if that means that it’s definitely no longer being used as a disinfectant?

Andrea Castillo: Yeah, it is not being used anymore as a disinfectant. They believe that around 2,700 people who were detained at Adelanto were exposed to that chemical.

And so one of the provisions of the settlement is that, you know, there have been monetary damages for — sorry, the settlement has resulted in money being given to the named plaintiffs. But for the people who are not among the six named plaintiffs, the rest of those 2,700 people may be able to bring their own lawsuits. And under the terms of the settlement, they now have this sort of precedent.

Mina Kim: Well, Discord user Ben writes, “Note that the DHS statement talked aggressively about self-deportation. Their hope is that if enough horror stories exist, people will voluntarily self-deport out of fear, and they can actually manage to get most of the 14 million illegal immigrants out of the country. The cruelty is the point.”

Jeremy, what do you think about this with regard to explaining the kinds of conditions that we have seen at the facilities that you have covered in your documentary and in the statement that we got from ICE?

Jeremy Young: It’s a great observation, and it’s something that we came across a lot while we were doing the reporting for the project. The Homeland Security secretary, Markwayne Mullin, had famously said, “This is not a Holiday Inn,” which is a bite that we included in our documentary. And a lot of people really do feel that they want the conditions in these facilities to be very difficult for people to navigate so that they leave the country.

And we heard it from family members, we heard from people who were detained there, we heard from attorneys, we heard from politicians. So it’s definitely an interesting perspective. And there are definitely people who haven’t been able to stay.

We did a story last year about families that were separated under Trump. And one of the families, the mother, who had six children who were born here in the United States, was at this facility. And she just couldn’t take it anymore and decided that she would move back to Mexico and take four of her daughters with her. And, you know, not everyone’s able to survive in the circumstances inside these facilities.

Andrea Castillo: One thing I’ll add to that is just that we’ve seen an explosion in the number of people who are willing to accept voluntary departure. So instead of seeing their deportation process all the way through and fighting it up until the end, they are accepting deportation essentially early so that they can get out of these facilities.

Mina Kim: Let me go to caller Chuck in Nevada, who I think has some pushback. Chuck, go ahead.

Chuck: Yeah, the question is, I’m an immigrant myself, but I’m talking about these people. They took chances. They break the law. No matter what your guest is saying, they want to go back to their families or they have worked here, they don’t want to leave their families, but they know what they were doing.

Mina Kim: Do you mean what my guest is saying? I think the question really is whether or not people should die in detention, in U.S. custody. Jeremy, your reaction?

Jeremy Young: Well, again, we mentioned this earlier, but the overwhelming majority of people who are in immigration detention are people who do not have a criminal conviction. And ICE has targeted — I mean, we worked on car washes in this particular episode because Ismael worked at a car wash, but car washes were targeted not because they thought that it would be chock-full of people who are doing human trafficking and selling drugs. They knew it would be an easy way to round up people who were undocumented and didn’t have status.

So it’s very easy to go by Home Depot and pick up people who are waiting for work. It’s much more difficult to actually seek out criminals. And so that’s part of the dynamic that’s playing out here.

Mina Kim: And even if they have a criminal conviction, I guess is what I’m saying, nobody should die in U.S. custody under the circumstances that you’re describing, right?

Jeremy Young: Of course. I said earlier, I feel like all of these deaths are avoidable. I mean, we’ve also had the highest rate of suicide in immigration detention facilities under President Trump in the second term. Those are very preventable when you do assessments, when people come in, you assess their mental health, you get them treatment. I think all of those deaths should be totally avoidable and, unfortunately, will be a stain on our conscience for some time.

Andrea Castillo: Can I add?

Mina Kim: Yeah, go ahead, Andrea.

Andrea Castillo: You know, beyond all of that, these detention facilities operate under federal laws. You know, they are — people who are detained are under the care of the federal government, and the federal government is mandated to provide minimum standards of care.

So whenever somebody is dying in a way that could have been prevented, that is a violation of federal law and what they are, you know, supposed to do.

Jeremy Young: Not even to mention the impact that incarceration in these facilities has on people’s physical and mental health.

Mina Kim: So, Jeremy, has the news of the sale been shared with the families or the sources you’ve spoken with? Because people inside Adelanto have shared so much with you. I’m just curious what their families think now that ownership has changed to the federal government.

Jeremy Young: Well, I mean, there have been local organizations that have been part of a Shut Down Adelanto campaign for some time. You know, they’ve been fighting this battle for a long time. And so, you know, for them, it’s probably another twist, another turn, another effort to avoid oversight.

And the truth is, are the conditions going to change at the facility? Are people going to have access to medical care? It still remains to be seen.

Mina Kim: In the documentary, you talk to the attorney general, Rob Bonta, about trying to push back against federal immigration enforcement. What did he tell you about the ability of the state of California to hold DHS accountable, what he’s seen?

Jeremy Young: Well, they are actually permitted to go in and look at documents. They’re permitted to do interviews. They do have to give some heads-up before they do their visits, but they certainly have greater visibility into the conditions inside the facility than anyone else.

And I think one of the things that the attorney general pointed out about this model of having private companies operate prisons is that it’s flawed from the get-go. There is a total… You know, effort to minimize the amount of costs, because it comes out of your profits, and it’s just — it’s a very straightforward, and it is a problem from the get-go.

Mina Kim: Yeah, well, let’s hear a clip of your host and correspondent for Fault Lines, Natasha Del Toro, talking with Rob Bonta about what ICE is saying about its facilities and about the death of Ayala Uribe.

Natasha Del Toro: ICE issued a statement saying comprehensive medical care is provided from the moment individuals arrive. At no time during detention is a detained illegal alien denied emergent care. Not true.

Attorney General Rob Bonta: That’s a talking point. If what the ICE spokesperson said was true, Mr. Ayala Uribe would be with us today. And who knows what’s happening on the ground? We do, because we’ve been there. We’ve gone to these facilities. We’ve gotten into Adelanto. We have done our own physical inspections. We’ve looked at documents. We’ve talked to staff. And we found the exact opposite of what that ICE spokesperson just said.

Mina Kim: So, hearing that, listener Sharon’s point, I think, is appropriate here. Sharon wants to know: If Rob Bonta and the state of California have special powers, why is it that we can’t do more? Why can’t they go in there and make criminal charges or shut it down? I’m so disheartened by constantly hearing the same thing about people being mistreated and dying.

Jeremy, you first, and then I’ll go to Andrea on that.

Andrea Castillo: I-I-I can take this one. Okay.

Mina Kim: Okay, thanks.

Andrea Castillo: Yeah. You know, these facilities operate under federal control, so there’s only so much that states can do that falls under their control. But, you know, the existence and operation of these facilities is a federal matter. Immigration enforcement is a federal matter. It’s under federal law.

So while the states have power to oversee any violations of the conditions, while they have some amount of oversight power, you know, the real emphasis here is on the federal government.

Mina Kim: Well, listener Lisa writes, “I don’t understand how Congress or other officials cannot put an end to ICE and detention center torture.” Do you want to respond to Lisa, Andrea?

Andrea Castillo: Yeah. Well, Congress has had its own troubles getting into these facilities since the start of this administration. Members of Congress have found themselves kept out of the detention centers. There have been many iterations at this point of rules that DHS has put into place that make it more difficult for members of Congress to conduct their own oversight.

You know, at some point, they were asking members of Congress for several days’ notice. Recently, they have been asking members of Congress to provide written confirmation and a signature from any detainee that they want to speak with. Otherwise, when they go and do an unannounced inspection of a detention facility, they’re not allowed to speak with any of the detainees there.

Mina Kim: Let me go to caller Judith in Oakland next. Hi, Judith. Join us. You’re on.

Judith: Yeah, I was just making a comment that I wish the press and the people talking today would continue to inform the public of the differences between documented and undocumented people who are going to these facilities. Documented people going through the court system that they’re picking up are not, quote, criminals. They’re not illegal, and nobody’s making the distinction.

I just went to an event involving a mother, three U.S. citizens, a U.S. husband, in court, picked up a nurse who now is in a different African country and went through deplorable conditions. So I wish to help inform the public, because the one commenter who just talked about how they all committed crimes — they didn’t commit crimes.

Mina Kim: I really appreciate you saying that, and we’re just coming up on the break here. But I did want to just have Andrea and Jeremy respond to the fact that, yes, and we have covered this, there are a lot of people who have legal status who are being picked up and put into these places, and even without charges, right, Andrea?

Andrea Castillo: That’s right. There are a lot of people, you know, more than a million people who, at the start of this administration, had some sort of provisional legal status. They had the ability to work legally, and the administration has been cutting those statuses away and leaving people undocumented and more vulnerable to being picked up and deported.

Mina Kim: And even people whose status they haven’t taken away, but who were, you know, appearing in court or had some kind of temporary status, right?

Right. Well, we’re talking with Andrea Castillo of the Los Angeles Times and Jeremy Young, senior producer on Fault Lines from Al Jazeera English, with the new documentary Dying in Detention.

Stay with us. You’re listening to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about conditions inside the Adelanto ICE Processing Center, where four people have died since Trump took office, and also the impact of DHS now owning California detention centers. In fact, they own several of them now.

Andrea Castillo is a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times who covers immigration, and Jeremy Young is a senior producer on Fault Lines from Al Jazeera English who is part of the team behind a new documentary called Dying in Detention, which looks at the case of Ismael Ayala Uribe, who died while in custody at Adelanto.

And listeners, we’re asking you what questions you have about conditions at ICE facilities in California, the jail in Adelanto, and whether or not you’ve had any direct experience with them. Also, your questions about the sale of ICE facilities to the federal government and what impact you’re wondering that will have.

The phone number is 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786. The email address is [email protected], and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.

So, Andrea, help us understand: How many facilities in California does the federal government own, and are there plans to own more?

Andrea Castillo: The federal government now owns four facilities in California. That’s half of the facilities in the state, and there are plans to own more. George Zoley, the CEO of the GEO Group, said in a recent call with investors that DHS had talked about purchasing 10 facilities and that that number could increase.

Mina Kim: Hmm, 10 facilities, but probably across the country, because there are eight total in California. Is that right? And you said some are owned by CoreCivic.

Andrea Castillo: Others are owned by CoreCivic. There’s a smattering of other companies that own different facilities as well.

Mina Kim: All right, so the federal government now has Otay Mesa and the California City Detention Facility, as well as these other two by the GEO Group that are in Adelanto.

Sue in Petaluma writes, “I see that Adelanto was established in 2015. How do the present conditions in this facility differ from conditions in the previous administration? Have these conditions persisted over the last 11 years, or have they worsened under this administration?” Andrea?

Andrea Castillo: Yeah, the conditions absolutely persist. I am reminded of a report from many years ago where investigators found nooses in Adelanto Detention Center that were possibly being used for attempted suicides. So that’s just one of the things that sticks out that I remember all of these years later.

But certainly, the conditions — you know, there have been many lawsuits and allegations going back multiple administrations, alleging the same types of things.

Jeremy Young: And, Mina, remember, there were almost zero people left in the facility relatively recently, until Trump came back into office.

Mina Kim: I used to — 10 were, yeah, it had gotten down to very few, single digits. I remember at some point there were two people.

So when Trump came back into office, how — what are some of the ways DHS operational oversight changed? Do you mention that it’s harder to get information out from DHS in your reporting now?

Jeremy Young: Well, yeah, I mean, that’s always been a problem. I mean, I think one of the changes that’s happened significantly, and it’s interesting as we approach the midterm elections, you know, there was a real visible change in the approach that this administration took to its crackdown when they switched from Kristi Noem and brought in Markwayne Mullin.

And they actually detained more people under Markwayne Mullin, but it wasn’t done in the same visible way, where they were trying to, you know, spread fear and livestream these raids. They decided to take an approach.

And, you know, that’s been really interesting because I think what it reveals to me is seeing whether the politics behind this crackdown and the treatment of immigrants in these detention facilities is popular in the United States and whether it’s going to have an impact on how people vote in the midterm elections, which I still think is an open question, but a very interesting one.

Mina Kim: Is there an internal monitor of ICE, Andrea, or something like that?

Andrea Castillo: Um, there were, um, you know, oversight mechanisms within ICE, and on the federal side, yeah, there was the CRCL, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties Office. There was also the immigrant detention ombudsman. Well, the ombudsman no longer exists, and Civil Rights and Civil Liberties is extremely reduced. So their ability to actually investigate the conditions in these facilities has drastically changed.

Jeremy Young: And, Mina, just so you know what the ombudsman’s role was, they would receive complaints directly from detainees at facilities and they would aim to address those, whether someone’s not able to get their medicine, whether they’re not able to communicate with their — whatever the issue was, that was the purpose of the ombudsman office, and President Trump gutted that.

Mina Kim: Let me go to caller Tony in Oakland next. Tony, go ahead.

Tony: It seems to be the root cause of this issue with the federal government purchasing prisons is the privatization of prisons. When are we going to do something to ban that and take state control of our penal system?

Mina Kim: Well, Tony, thanks for sharing your thoughts on that. Let me go to Andrea.

Andrea Castillo: Thank you. Well, California tried it, and it didn’t work. California, years ago, tried to ban private prisons. That was struck down in court, so the state lost on that one. And that, I think, set into place all this big effort now to increase the oversight of these facilities, because that is what they can do.

Jeremy Young: And to Tony’s point, one of the things that we did in the documentary on Capitol Hill was interview Jim Jordan, who has an extremely powerful role overseeing the House Judiciary Committee. And a super PAC aligned with him, according to the Project on Government Oversight, received a $250,000 donation from the GEO Group. And when we asked him whether that was problematic or a conflict of interest, he said, “No, not really,” and laughed it off.

Mina Kim: I should note that we also reached out to GEO Group for a reaction to your documentary, Jeremy, and they did not respond to our request for comment.

Jeremy Young: For comment. That’s a shame, Mina.

Mina Kim: This listener in the East Bay writes, “How do family members stay in contact with their relatives inside facilities like Adelanto? Are they able to visit or make phone calls?” Jeremy?

Jeremy Young: That’s a really good question, because one of the biggest challenges for families is keeping track of their loved ones, making sure they have what they need, communicating with them, and people often are at a loss.

I mean, Ismael’s family found out that he was dead when the police came and knocked on their door at 5:30 in the morning on a Monday morning. They didn’t know that he had been rushed to the hospital. They hadn’t been given any information about it.

It’s really challenging and also expensive to communicate, and not very reliable. And it’s really one of the things that, when you think about being able to be safe and be healthy while you’re incarcerated in these facilities, the ability to communicate with your family, to speak with loved ones, to hear your children’s voices — sometimes it’s all that can kind of carry you through the day. So it’s real important.

Andrea Castillo: Can I just add to that?

Mina Kim: Yeah, go ahead, Andrea.

Andrea Castillo: These calls are expensive. They have to pay to speak with their family members. And families that I have talked to recently have said that, specifically when going to Adelanto, they are waiting for hours with other families in order to get time to visit in person. There are lines now because there are significantly more people detained.

Mina Kim: But they must be, though, a key source of information for you, Andrea, and also for you, Jeremy, given what you’ve been saying about how hard it is to get accurate information about what’s really going on.

Andrea Castillo: Yeah, it’s become much more difficult as a journalist to actually see the inside of these detention facilities. One of the main ways now is if you’re going to immigration court and there is an immigration court in a detention facility. It’s not like that for every single one, but Adelanto does have an immigration court inside the facility. But obviously, I’m not able to see the housing units or anything like that.

Jeremy Young: We spent a day outside of Adelanto during visiting hours and met with family members who were either coming in or coming out, and it was like 100-degree heat. And it was really interesting to have people stop and speak with us and share their experiences.

These two sisters that we interviewed — their brother, you know, and they were young, they were in their twenties, and their brother was young — had been taken into Adelanto about a week before. And she said to me, she’s like, “They had him shackled. He was handcuffed, and he was shackled by his feet. Why would they do that?” She said, “My brother’s not a criminal.”

And it was just really interesting to see her perspective and knowing who her brother is and loving her brother and not understanding why he’s being treated like a criminal. It was really heartbreaking.

Mina Kim: Well, Bluesky user MJ writes, “Remind me why politicians oppose detention centers in the Bay Area within easy reach of hospitals and physicians, immigration lawyers, friends and family are nearby, but we’d rather keep them in places like Adelanto.” Do you think there’s some truth to what MJ is saying?

Jeremy Young: I do, and I think that if you look at what happened at Delaney Hall this summer in New Jersey, where people showed up for protests and state police came in on horseback, it really was in the zeitgeist, with a lot of attention. And that facility is not located as far away from the center of town as places like Adelanto or Irwin County Detention Center.

A lot of these facilities are in the middle of nowhere, and it’s really hard for people to get to. But a facility like Delaney Hall that was easier for people to get to was more visible. It’s near New York, it’s near Washington, D.C. Politicians are able to go. And so you do see the more visibility, the more sunlight, the more attention there is to the conditions inside.

Andrea Castillo: One of ICE’s talking points during the course of California trying to rid the state of these privately run detention centers was that if the state no longer had any detention facilities, people would have to travel farther and farther away to see their loved ones and for people to get access to their attorneys.

And, you know, that was a point that they made that has validity. If people are far away, the situation is more opaque.

Mina Kim: Again, we’re talking with Andrea Castillo, a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times, covering immigration, and Jeremy Young, part of the team behind the new documentary that we’re covering today, Dying in Detention, senior producer on Fault Lines from Al Jazeera English.

And let me remind listeners, you are listening to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.

So, with everything you’re saying, what power do detainees have to hold DHS accountable? Jeremy, is Ismael’s family trying to get some kind of justice through the courts?

Jeremy Young: Yeah, I mean, families can sue for wrongful death, and that is going to take a lot of time. I think, you know, just not to be all negative about the impact that the detainees have had on their situation, for Adelanto, Andrea had mentioned that a judge ruled in their favor earlier this summer in order to get, you know, fresh water, adequate food, adequate medical care.

And so I think some people did feel like their voice was heard. You know, they engaged in this hunger strike to raise awareness because there’s not much else that they can do. And I think this did make it into the news. It did make it into people’s consciousness.

And I will say that I think advocating for themselves, there is a glimmer of hope that they could improve the conditions. It’s not easy, and no one would want to go through that experience. But I will say that they’ve been effective in getting their voice heard. This reminds me — Andrea, you’d agree.

Andrea Castillo: Yeah, this reminds me of a story that I covered a few months back. This wasn’t at Adelanto, but detainees at the California City facility and at Mesa Verde had initiated a boycott of commissary because they felt that the prices had increased so significantly that things were just unaffordable. And they weren’t getting, particularly for detainees who had, you know, sensitivities or conditions like diabetes, where they needed to eat food other than what was provided to them. Their only way to get that food was through commissary and their families, you know, providing them money to pay for that.

But it had become so burdensome that their families were spending multiple hundreds of dollars every month for these detainees to eat. And so they initiated a boycott of commissaries, and they felt it worked. The facility, California City, decided to, from what I understand, reduce some of those prices.

Mina Kim: Matt in Oakland writes, “How much could things actually change if Democrats retake Congress in the midterms? Do they realistically have enough oversight or legislative power to change what’s happening at these facilities and more broadly within the Trump administration and the Department of Homeland Security?” What do you think?

Jeremy Young: Well, I think what would be significant is if there was a change in the approach to the crackdown and immigration detention and the massive number of people who are being incarcerated in these facilities. I mean, it’s undoubtable that one of the reasons why people aren’t able to get adequate medical care is because there are too many people in these facilities, and they are not staffed up to handle the number of people who are in them.

So if we took an alternative approach to what we’re doing, then things might change.

Mina Kim: Let me go to caller Omar in San Francisco. Omar, go ahead.

Omar: Good morning, Mina. So, Andrea and Jeremy, I think that you guys need to do a story in regards to where is the money going? You’re talking about massive numbers of people being dehumanized and treated like animals, but the real problem is that this is all just a big business, and that it is driving back to some of the highest offices in this land. They all are invested in these corporations.

And you said that the GEO Group and the other group, you know, have these shareholder meetings where they’re like, “Oh, they’re going to spend more money.” These are people being turned into dollars, and that is all it is about. None of them are criminals. They have no reason to be in there. This whole thing has been the worst nightmare that this country has ever faced, and there needs to be some justice behind it.

Mina Kim: Thanks. I can hear how passionately you feel about this. And, yes, Jeremy, you touched on this with regard to Jim Jordan and so on.

Jeremy Young: Yeah, and the amount of money that the private prison companies have put in the coffers for President Trump has been extraordinary. The other thing in this context — it was a great comment, by the way, by your caller — a lot of the people who are incarcerated in these facilities are the primary breadwinner for their family, or at least one of the breadwinners of their family.

So we’re talking about having to manage commissary expenses and phone calls, but they’re also not making the money that their loved one was making when they were not incarcerated in a detention facility. And so children are stepping up. We’re seeing children working to try and help support families. It’s really a dire situation for these people.

Mina Kim: And Andrea, you said billions of dollars, right, for these facilities. And so essentially, the company continues to keep running them. So they get paid for the facility and for the ongoing contracts of running them.

Andrea Castillo: That’s right. Yeah, I mean, this is $45 billion of U.S. taxpayer money, so we’re all—

Mina Kim: So we’re all paying for it.

Andrea Castillo: We are all paying for it, and that’s correct. I mean, the CEO of GEO Group, George Zoley, on one of these calls mentioned that, for him, they are in this sort of dual business of owning the facilities, but then also operating the facilities.

But he said outright that, for him, the most important of those two is continued long-term operation of the detention centers. So essentially, he’s saying it’s okay for the federal government to buy these facilities as long as we can still keep these more lucrative, long-term contracts in which we are running the show.

Jeremy Young: And, Mina, a former senior executive from GEO Group is now running ICE. So you can see what the problems are with the revolving-door system that we have.

Mina Kim: Right, and your documentary, of course, shows us what running the facilities actually looks like.

Andrea, in your reporting, you said that Governor Gavin Newsom signed more than 20 bills aimed at pushing back against the Trump administration’s immigration agenda. Do these state-level laws have any potential to change things?

Andrea Castillo: They absolutely do. I mean, one of the laws that I’m particularly interested in as a journalist is one that requires the release of public records related to 911 calls at these facilities. So that one certainly will have an impact, with the public able to more freely see what’s going on when 911 gets involved, when something happens in these facilities.

Other of these laws are now embroiled in litigation already. GEO Group already sued over one of the laws, so we’ll see what happens with that.

Mina Kim: Well, Andrea, thank you so much for your reporting. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Andrea Castillo, a staff writer at the Los Angeles Times. Jeremy Young, a senior producer on Fault Lines from Al Jazeera English, which has just put out the new documentary Dying in Detention. My thanks to you as well, Jeremy.

Jeremy Young: Thank you, Mina, for having us on and for putting some attention on this issue.

Mina Kim: My thanks to our listeners for their questions and comments, and to Ana De Almeida Amaral for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.

Announcer: Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.