Episode Transcript
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Xorje Olivares: Ah, the American dream. How we’ve heard of her for generations. Well, I should say versions of her, because this is the version that I grew up with. Well for starters, I’d be a homeowner. I’m thinking a spacious three-bedroom, two-bathroom in a nice neighborhood with some killer curb appeal. I’d then have that weird, not a given average of 2.3 kids, each of which would probably go to an overpriced prestigious school. Even Yeah, point three one because I love my kids equally.
And me, well, I’d be a lawyer, or a doctor, or some other career that my parents could gush about to their compadres. Oh mijo, fíjate, he’s doing really well for himself, we’re very proud of him.
Now, clearly I decided to emphasize the dream part of this American dream scenario, because that’s definitely not my life. I’m a longtime renter, I’m a dog parent, and even though I don’t save lives like a doctor would, I’d like to think I change lives with my podcasts. And I’m okay with that! Because I think I’m doing pretty well.
But that doesn’t really negate the fact that I was conditioned to want a lot more for myself, by my parents, by society, by the culture around me. Because to be American means to have certain expectations for yourself and for your country, when it comes to pursuing personal and professional successes. I should be able to do this. I should able to afford that. Regardless of my race, religion, gender, lo que sea. In essence, life should feel easy in this very powerful nation.
But that hasn’t always been realistic for a lot of folks, especially in the face of institutional racism and poverty. And with unemployment still high, bills mounting up and individual rights seemingly in limbo. Does any of that sound like the promise of America? I’m Xorge Olivares, and I’m asking What do we really want from America? And what is it able to give it to us?
This is Hyphenación, where conversation and cultura meet.
Xorje Olivares: Now, I just gave an idea about what my dream house would seem like if I was able to pursue this American dream. And I’m curious about what my guests would like to live in. And I am starting off with my first guest, Paola Ramos. She is a journalist and an author mostly of Latine experiences, the most recent being called Defectors, which talks about the rise of the far right Latino community. Paola, thank you so much for joining me today. And I’m curious, what would your house look like?
Paola Ramos: So I envision it in the West Village of New York City. I envision a brownstone. I envision, like, wood floors, high ceilings, like open windows. I would be okay in that setting with two bedrooms.
Xorje Olivares: Okay.
Paola Ramos: And maybe like I can live close to a park, forget that I’m in the city, but then when I want to, I’m the city. Like that’s the dream for sure. I’m talking to you…
Xorje Olivares: I might steal this.
Paola Ramos:…from a Small apartment in Brooklyn, New York, no complaints, but one day.
Xorje Olivares: In the West Village. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We’re also joined by Brian De Los Santos who is an LA-based journalist and a proud Angelino. So I have to ask, Brian, is your dream house in Los Angeles?
Brian De Los Santos: Hell yeah.100%. And I would say Malibu, but you know what happened there with the fires early this year. So I gotta rethink my dream house, you know. My first instinct is the beach, the waves, some above that California marijuana.
[Laughter]
Brian De Los Santos: Um. Vibes all around. I love the beach. I’m a Leo. I get I love warm days. But the second part to that answer is I have a condo that has two stories. It’s out in the desert. Unfortunately, I don’t live there, like, I don’t live there right now because I’m in LA. But it’s, yeah, I would say I was able to get a little bit of the American dream, but it’s not, I’m not there right now.
Xorje Olivares: Thank you both for your answers and thank you for joining me for this conversation because I think there’s something to say about the American dream and it somehow being synonymous with this notion of upward mobility and that also kind of resonates with immigration stories, migration stories, like why most folks came to this country to begin with. And so I wanna focus there first. And I wanna start with you, Paola, if you don’t mind maybe sharing your family’s migration story and how this notion of America even first came to be for you all.
Paola Ramos: When it comes to my parents, for them, it was really around grasping here a very basic principle and freedom and right that didn’t exist where they came from, which is back then the basic principle of freedom of press and freedom of speech. So my mom is a Cuban exile, comes from a family of Cuban immigrants. My grandfather was a journalist in Cuba, first started with the revolution, started with Castro and sort of two years into Castro’s sort of rise in power, my grandfather ends up being imprisoned because he was writing articles against el Castrismo.
My father leaves Mexico at a time when Televisa, the, of course, massive Mexican media empire, at that point in his career, this is mid-’80s, they start restricting his radio pieces and his radio stories. And so he decides to leave. And so both of my parents come to the United States looking for that, looking to freely express themselves. And looking for freedom of press. My dad who then ended up becoming a news anchor for Univision, he would always tell me the biggest privilege and power you will ever have is your pen, this ability to write stories, to hold people in power accountable, the ability to ask questions. And I think that I sort of grew up with that understanding that were I ever to walk into those spaces of power, like that was my duty, my duty was that. And so I think that is the sort of environment and the conversations that I grew up in.
We’re now, of course, existing in a very different reality as journalists, and so this is something that I wake up with thinking about every single day. Slowly, these rights that I grew up with, they’re slowly eroding in front of us every single day.
Xorje Olivares: Mm-hmm, Brian, how did your family approach their migration to this country?
Brian De Los Santos: Yeah, well, I came with my parents. My dad came here first, and then I came with my mom in 1992. And I think for them, the American dream was just financial freedom, any little bit of it. They were leaving Mexico in an era where it was everyone’s financially challenged and there was no way out and they were seeing opportunities happen here in the late 80s and that’s what inspired them to come here, and so my parents are Christian pastors. And so they feel their success is tied with the religion, whether that is establishing a church of their own or that is serving in some way. So it really isn’t just about financial success or their home. FYI, my parents were undocumented when they came into this country.
They always told me you know work hard you’re gonna get something bigger in return you’re going to be successful at things and I think that impacted me so much when I was a little kid that that’s what I thought was gonna happen and I hoped that would happen. They ended up buying a house. The market crash happened in 2007, 2008. And they were impacted. And I think that’s when they realized, oh, this shit is hard. You know, this is, you can be an immigrant, you can a good immigrant, you can do everything by the book and it’ll still be, you will still fail. And I do believe millennials, no shade to anyone else…
Xorje Olivares: [Laughter]
Brian De Los Santos: … and no shade to any other generation, but I think millennials are redefining what that American dream is. Like I am talking to my friends about like, they’re not getting pregnant, some couples are like, “I don’t care about buying a house anymore. I want to be stable and I want to go on vacations with my family.” Do I care about a home? I don’t know. So we’ll see.
Xorje Olivares: I like this idea of the shifting tides of the American dream. I mean, you addressed it. I talked about it in the intro. I don’t have any of the things that I thought would be part of the American dream that I grew up with. And Paola have you had conversations either with your friends, other family members about how what you’re pursuing just doesn’t seem to be identical to what they had in mind for you?
Paola Ramos: Well, I mean, I’m thinking of what I was thinking when I was five. And I think I think that’s the thing. This American dream sort of like corrupts your mind, you know, and it pushes you to believe that you’re supposed to meet certain certain measures. Like, I thought that by the time I was 37, which is what I am, I thought that I would be married to a man. I’m a lesbian. If I had that, I would be, you know, yes, like living in this house. And I think for many of us millennials, we’re understanding that it is extremely hard to achieve that in this country. In this country that sells you that this is a country of possibilities that sells you the message that you can do it all, which sure, we’re all trying as hard as we can, but I think what we’re coming to terms with is that at what cost, no? And that’s the question. I believe that I can achieve all these things, but I feel like I’m kind of selling my soul to the system, no?
And I look around me, and I’m speaking from a point of immense privilege. But when I’m out there doing, you know, interviews and of course, more than anything, like talking to, like, mixed status families and immigrants, more often than not, I feel like I’m kind of sensing this big shift right now, where this American dream and the idea of it is dimming, because sure, we are sort of checking the measures, the economic measures. No, we’re- we’re having better opportunities than our parents, upward mobility is a real thing, but then the question of like, are we still truly respected, right? Like are our rights truly being respected? Like is dignity, you know the dignity that this country promises in that dream, like does that fully exist? You know?
Xorje Olivares: So is it a myth, the American dream, or is it just evolving to a place that we can’t quite define it yet?
Brian De Los Santos: I low-key think it’s a myth, and I’ll let people process that by their own. As Paola was talking about her own privilege, I also need to check myself because I have DACA, which is a work permit, and sometimes like Paola, when I’m interviewing mixed-status families, I’m like, I feel the privilege that I hold in this space, whether it’s in media or whether it is just having financial stability. And so for me, it’s a myth in other theories, in other ways that we see out there.
Paola Ramos: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s like the key question that we’re wrestling with as a nation and in American politics right now is like, you know, are we truly or are we all headed towards this like multiracial, pluralistic, diverse democracy, or at our core, is it always the case that we keep going back to roots of this country, right, which is a country that was founded upon the principles of white supremacy. And it is a country that every turn, every time it can, it has oppressed and oppressed and oppressed every attempt to sort of diverge from those origins.
And so I think that’s kind of what we’re wrestling with as a country. And I think not to bring it back to politics, but I think that’s why perhaps the 2024 election once again was such a shock for so many people because it was like. Here we are again, we had an opportunity to elect a black women president, and yet again, we couldn’t do it. No, here we are again, we’ve had multiple attempts at passing comprehensive immigration reform, and yeah, we don’t do it. No, Here we again, separating families.
And so I think it’s almost like, at some point, we have to be real with what we’re dealing with. And if it is true, in fact, that are we or not a country of immigrants, like are we or not, you know, like all of these have for so many years, like shaped the way that we think of this country, right? Which is, yes, it’s a country full of dreams and the American dream. And perhaps, perhaps we’re not.
Xorje Olivares: Yeah, we’re going to take a short little break and we’ll be right back.
Xorje Olivares: Politics is cyclical, some of these stories we’ve been hearing about for generations for, you know, multiple administrations. Like, because the timeline seems like it’s repeating itself, do we think that’s why the American dream continues on?
Brian De Los Santos: I don’t know. I’m kind of going through my own personal crisis in this era. I think for me also, my personal story is as an undocumented immigrant who has a work permit that could go away any second, I’m always on survival mode. Like whether I have a house or whether I own a car or not. I don’t know what’s gonna happen with my future. And the pathway to a green card to citizenship is not there for me. I have to go through different loopholes to try to get one. And even though I have an immigration lawyer and we’re trying to do what we can for my case, it’s not the easiest one.
XO: And Paola what do you think?
Paola Ramos: Yeah, look, I think so long as this country continues to present us with opportunities, you know opportunities that are better here than those where our family’s left behind, the dream will continue to exist. However, I do think that we are in the midst of a breaking point where, at least I’m finding as I’m talking to people, people that aren’t being deported. I’m talking about people that are choosing to leave on their own terms. And I think there’s a type of empowerment and liberation that is coming from families that are kind of looking at themselves and at their journey in this country and that are saying, you know what, I can’t do it anymore.
Unfortunately, I’ve been meeting a significant amount of people that are making that decision and I’ve had following them around the country. And I’ve done following them across the border. And I’m talking to you after just coming back from Panama and Columbia, where I was able to talk to, for example, like a group of 30 Venezuelans many of them were waiting along the US-Mexico border in limbo for a couple of months, and all of whom decided at some point in the last couple of weeks that they couldn’t take it anymore. That it was not worth it for them to live in a country. That would criminalize them and deport them to another country simply because of their tattoos. And so in those conversations, they chose that their dignity at this point was more worth it than living in a country that was giving them the bare minimum. But then I think I mentioned that it’s a breaking point because then what really stuck with me is that when I asked them, is this dream replaceable? They said, yes. And so what happens when you leave the dream and you sort of start looking for it elsewhere? And I think that’s kind of where we’re at.
Xorje Olivares: So, let’s get to the question, which is at the heart of the episode, which is what do you want from America? And what do think it can give you? Brian, what is it that you want?
Brian De Los Santos: Oh, damn. You put it so deeply. Almost got me teary-eyed over it right now. The one thing that I come back to is, as an immigrant in this country, I just want to be treated like a human. I don’t want to be seen as a policy story. I don’t want to be seen as a tax ID number. I don’t want to be seen as anything else but just like, oh, he’s a dude who wants to do this and that and is talented. And I think that’s where, you know, I could see the American dream be about as a human and be treated as such, but sometimes I feel like a number in this country. So if I had a little magic wand and be like, Brian, what do you want out of this country is people respect each other and are more empathetic, even though that’s a controversial topic out there that empathy is not a thing. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I want to be treated more humanly.
Xorje Olivares: I like that. Paola, What would yours be?
Paola Ramos: I have to agree. I mean, I think it’s, yeah, just to have this country love you back entirely. And I think the expectation was that at this time in history, you know, just talking about myself, as queer people in this diverse nation, the expectation is that we would be more loved. And I don’t think we’re necessarily, we’re definitely not there yet. And so I think I expect like a very basic level of humanity and love. And I expect that in these moments of transition, I expect this country to really truly uphold its democratic norms and institutions that allow for these dreams to be alive. You know what I’m saying? So like at a time when there’s so much uncertainty, My expectation, and I’m not a religious person, but I pray for this, is that those core democratic norms are unshakable.
Xorje Olivares: Yeah, you witnessed part of this transition, especially as it’s documented in your book Defectors, because it’s talking about the rise or at least now folks are becoming a bit more aware of the conservative wing of the Latino community. So if you can share a little bit about maybe what they told you about their dreams and desires of what this country should give them.
Paola Ramos: The story is that we believed, that as Latinos, our American dream looked a certain way. I think what we’re also understanding is that for those over 45% of Latinos that voted for Trump, I think they are showing us that. The American dream can be corrupted. Knowing that there’s a point in this journey where like individualism and capitalism and our sort of ambition to make it in this country, our ambition to assimilate, our ambition to attain power, our mission to be at the top, that can lead a lot of people, including Latinos and including immigrants and including black and brown people, that can leave you to a more corrupted darker version of the American Dream. Now that can be a brown person to find something extremely appealing in Trump’s version of the American dream, which is an American dream that is whiter, that is less threatened by diversity. And I think A, is just like sitting with that reality, but then understanding, and I think that’s kind of like the more interesting part, like posing the question to all the like Latino insurrectionists that I’ve interviewed and the Latino Proud Boys and sort of the border vigilantes that find something so appealing in Trumps like, version of the American Dream, the question that I now have for them is like, today in Trump’s America, how free are you? Did you attain that power? Did he give you anything? Do you have more now than you did back then? And I think slowly, perhaps, the answer is no, right? But I think the illusion of that dream is more powerful, of course, than the reality. And that’s what I believe, I would assume, is what many of them are coming to terms
Xorje Olivares: Do you think that the American dream can only exist in competition to someone else’s?
Paola Ramos: I think that’s how we’ve typically defined the dream. And I think if we define the dream as a dream of possibilities, then yes. But I think we define a dream as the dream is based on rights, and freedoms, and justice, and movements, then it’s different. And I that’s why when you ask this question, people are going to give you two different versions. Yes, I attained the dream of possibility. But no, I didn’t attain the dream of rights and freedoms.
But I think because we’re so used to talking about this in economic terms and in the frame of upward mobility, I think that’s where people do get threatened, because then the dream means that you’re taking something away from the other person, that you are climbing up the ladder, but not the other person. And I think, unfortunately, if we’ve learned something within American politics and within Latino politics, is that we too can be greedy, and that we, too, many times don’t want the other immigrants to climb up the ladder the same way that we did.
And that is a harsh reality of where we are, you know? That in this country, we’re so used to working so hard to attain that dream and they make it so hard to do it that we then become so corrupted that we don’t want the same opportunities for that other person. And that, that is something that is, that does happen.
Xorje Olivares: Yeah
Brian De Los Santos: Yeah, and I think it’s because some people will be like oh well I made it and I’m fine and why aren’t you making it. I’m like honey, we’re not the same people, you know. There was a conversation at my dinner table. Mom, I’m sorry, but I’m going to say it here. Um, she saw a video on YouTube, got her news from there. And she’s like, why are these immigrants coming in this way? They’re like invading the country. I’m like, mom, you crossed the border with me in 1992. What are you talking about? And I had to check her. I’m, like, you cannot be like talking about this news that you got from YouTube that you don’t, I don’t know what channel she got it from. With all these bad references. I’m like, you are a leader in your community. You cannot talk about immigrants this way. You are one. And so just going back to the fact that Paola brought up, some people will pull up the ladder away from the next person that’s coming in. It’s happening. And so for me, it’s just wild to see these things.
Xorje Olivares: So Brian, you actually had a chance to do something which I haven’t had a change to do, which is ask your parents directly about this question on the American dream that, at least my parents sold me first. But how did that conversation go?
Brian De Los Santos:Yeah, I was a little scared to ask them because I’m like, am I gonna be frazzled by their answer? But my dad kept it really real. He’s like, we know that the policies or even people have treated each other badly in this country. And he knows it hasn’t been easy. He knows that he’s had his own personal hurdles and at his church, he’s also seen other people’s hurdles. And we’ve seen people get deported, we’ve seen people. Lose themselves in this country. And so what he says, I feel like this is a place that everyone can come to, but we know it’s hard and not everyone can make it here. And, I feel like I’m still happy being here. Like he’s, he says he’s not going to bag on the US. He’s not going to talk bad about the US, but he says. He understands how people experience the life here. And he’s happy where he’s at.
Xorje Olivares: Nice. Paola, have you had a chance to talk to your parents about this or saving it for Thanksgiving?
Paola Ramos: No, I think, look, they have, I would say, different ideas. So I think my dad is someone that fundamentally believes that the dream is alive and that it is worth sticking around to see where it ends. No, and like I said, so long as, and I think that’s how he would measure it, not so long, as his children, which is myself and my brother, have more opportunities than him. Which we did. We went to American colleges and we were able to sort of enter the English-speaking media world in a way that he has never been able to. So long as those things are real, I think my dad will always say it’s worth it.
My mother left the United States two years ago, so my mom now lives in Spain. She’s in Madrid. And I think that’s given her a lot of perspective, not to be able to see the US from afar, particularly the US that we’re sort of evolving into and turning into. And I mean, she would probably say, if I were to ask her, like, would you ever come back and live here on your choice voluntarily? I would assume that she would say no. Because I think then in Spain, she has found a certain like peace. She also is a journalist. So I think kind of like leaving the crazy world of American journalism and like the newsrooms. I also think maybe that has something to do with it. No, she’s not as crazy as dude, but I think there’s a level of calmness and peace. Maybe there’s something to not living in the sort of day-to-day competitiveness, sort of like all of us hustling. And I think she’s content. And I think in her eyes, she would probably say that it’s perhaps… Attainable elsewhere, not just in the U.S.
Xorje Olivares: I wanna thank both of you for joining me for this. It really was an existential conversation about, like, what are we doing. And so I could not have thought of two better people to have this conversation. So thank you so much for joining me today.
Paola Ramos: Thank you. This was like therapy, honestly. So I’m good for the week.
Brian De Los Santos: Canceling my session this week.
Paola Ramos: Literally!
Xorje Olivares: I do want to remind our listeners, if you want to send us your thoughts about what the American Dream is, or what your version of the American dream is, please send us an email at HYP at kqed.org, or if you want to sent us an idea for an upcoming episode. But until then, hasta luego.
Hyphenación is a KQED Studios Production. It is produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Alex Tran, and me, Xorje Olivares.
Chris Hambrick is our editor.
Mixing and mastering by Christopher Beale.
Jen Chien is executive producer and KQED’s director of podcasts.
Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.
Thank you to Maha Sanad for her audience engagement support and to podcast operations intern Alana Walker.
Thanks to podcast operations manager Katie Sprenger, Video Operations manager Vivian Morales, and our chief content officer Holly Kernan.
Special thanks to Megan Tan, Martina Castro, and Paulina Velasco for their development support.
Okay mi gente, cuídense.
