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"content": "\u003cp>Dozens of chocolatiers, cashiers and other employees at the Ghirardelli Chocolate Company’s flagship store in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> entered the second day of a strike on Friday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The walkout, expected to end Saturday night, aims to pressure the company to agree to concessions after more than a year of contract negotiations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Picketers at Ghirardelli Square urged consumers to boycott the brand’s popular business at one of the city’s most iconic tourist destinations. The strike at the Original Ghirardelli Chocolate & Ice Cream Shop is the first in more than 40 years, and comes as unionized employees oppose a company proposal they said would gut their health care benefits, making them more expensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093346\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Workers picket outside Ghirardelli’s flagship store in San Francisco on July 30, 2026. (Courtesy of Unite Here)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fredrick Jones, a greeter at the shop for 17 years, told KQED he fears not being able to afford medication that keeps his body from rejecting a heart transplant he underwent last October.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This benefit that we have right now is very important to us. It helped me out big time with my heart transplant,” Jones, a 47-year-old San Francisco resident, said. “That’s why we’re doing this strike, to let people know that the company is not respecting employees like they should.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the Lindt & Sprüngli Group, which owns Ghirardelli, said in a statement that the company values and respects its employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ghirardelli, one of the nation’s oldest chocolate companies, was founded in San Francisco during the Gold Rush by Italian chocolatier Domenico “Domingo” Ghirardelli.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We are currently in active contract negotiations with the union and are committed to bargaining in good faith,” the spokesperson wrote in an e-mail. “Our main focus right now is on reaching an agreement that supports our employees and ensures the long-term success of our business.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lindt & Sprüngli, headquartered in Switzerland, posted nearly 6 billion Swiss francs in sales \u003ca href=\"https://www.lindt-spruengli.com/investors/financial-reporting/annual-report-2025\">last year\u003c/a>, or more than $7.3 billion. Its operating profits totaled 970 million francs, or about $1.2 billion, after expenses and the costs of goods.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union representing the 45 strikers accused the company of bargaining in bad faith by refusing to share relevant information, such as how much it profits from a 6% “healthcare fee” charged to customers at Ghirardelli Plaza locations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Management aims to switch employees’ health plan to one that would impose unaffordable co-payments for emergency room visits or critical services, said Sonya Karabel, campaign researcher at Unite Here Local 2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091961\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Josh Sokolski (left) and Brenda Hinaga (right), both occupational therapists from Kaiser Walnut Creek, march while on strike at the picket line outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Feb. 19, 2026. Kaiser workers on the picket lines have gone without their paychecks for four weeks, and many are facing financial and other difficulties. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Customers expect, ‘Oh, okay, this [fee] is gonna cover workers’ health insurance.’ And yet, Ghirardelli is trying to cut their health insurance,” Karabel said. “They need to be transparent about what kind of resources they’re getting from customers that are supposed to be dedicated to paying for health care coverage.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last year, disputes over health benefits became a flash point driving work stoppages nationwide, as medical coverage costs continued to rise, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ilr.cornell.edu/faculty-and-research/labor-action-tracker-2025\">a report\u003c/a> by researchers at Cornell University’s Labor Action Tracker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent months, Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083589/uc-reaches-contract-deal-with-service-hospital-workers-averting-strike\">service workers\u003c/a> at the University of California, warehouse staff at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092155/arrests-injuries-at-ch-sugar-protest-as-strike-at-crockett-refinery-enters-sixth-week\">C&H Sugar refinery\u003c/a> in Crockett and patient care \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074265/widespread-kaiser-strike-to-end-after-4-weeks-with-no-deal-yet\">employees at Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> have said that protecting or improving their health insurance was a main reason for striking.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Picketers at Ghirardelli Square urged consumers to boycott the brand’s popular business at one of the city’s most iconic tourist destinations. The strike at the Original Ghirardelli Chocolate & Ice Cream Shop is the first in more than 40 years, and comes as unionized employees oppose a company proposal they said would gut their health care benefits, making them more expensive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Fredrick Jones, a greeter at the shop for 17 years, told KQED he fears not being able to afford medication that keeps his body from rejecting a heart transplant he underwent last October.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the Lindt & Sprüngli Group, which owns Ghirardelli, said in a statement that the company values and respects its employees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ghirardelli, one of the nation’s oldest chocolate companies, was founded in San Francisco during the Gold Rush by Italian chocolatier Domenico “Domingo” Ghirardelli.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We are currently in active contract negotiations with the union and are committed to bargaining in good faith,” the spokesperson wrote in an e-mail. “Our main focus right now is on reaching an agreement that supports our employees and ensures the long-term success of our business.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lindt & Sprüngli, headquartered in Switzerland, posted nearly 6 billion Swiss francs in sales \u003ca href=\"https://www.lindt-spruengli.com/investors/financial-reporting/annual-report-2025\">last year\u003c/a>, or more than $7.3 billion. Its operating profits totaled 970 million francs, or about $1.2 billion, after expenses and the costs of goods.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The union representing the 45 strikers accused the company of bargaining in bad faith by refusing to share relevant information, such as how much it profits from a 6% “healthcare fee” charged to customers at Ghirardelli Plaza locations. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Management aims to switch employees’ health plan to one that would impose unaffordable co-payments for emergency room visits or critical services, said Sonya Karabel, campaign researcher at Unite Here Local 2.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Customers expect, ‘Oh, okay, this [fee] is gonna cover workers’ health insurance.’ And yet, Ghirardelli is trying to cut their health insurance,” Karabel said. “They need to be transparent about what kind of resources they’re getting from customers that are supposed to be dedicated to paying for health care coverage.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In recent months, Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083589/uc-reaches-contract-deal-with-service-hospital-workers-averting-strike\">service workers\u003c/a> at the University of California, warehouse staff at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092155/arrests-injuries-at-ch-sugar-protest-as-strike-at-crockett-refinery-enters-sixth-week\">C&H Sugar refinery\u003c/a> in Crockett and patient care \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074265/widespread-kaiser-strike-to-end-after-4-weeks-with-no-deal-yet\">employees at Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> have said that protecting or improving their health insurance was a main reason for striking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In recent months, Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083589/uc-reaches-contract-deal-with-service-hospital-workers-averting-strike\">service workers\u003c/a> at the University of California, warehouse staff at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092155/arrests-injuries-at-ch-sugar-protest-as-strike-at-crockett-refinery-enters-sixth-week\">C&H Sugar refinery\u003c/a> in Crockett and patient care \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074265/widespread-kaiser-strike-to-end-after-4-weeks-with-no-deal-yet\">employees at Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> have said that protecting or improving their health insurance was a main reason for striking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Striking workers say the Bay Area chocolate maker is proposing to raise employee healthcare costs.\n",
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"title": "San Francisco Ghirardelli Workers Strike at Iconic Flagship Store | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Dozens of chocolatiers, cashiers and other employees at the Ghirardelli Chocolate Company’s flagship store in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> entered the second day of a strike on Friday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The walkout, expected to end Saturday night, aims to pressure the company to agree to concessions after more than a year of contract negotiations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Picketers at Ghirardelli Square urged consumers to boycott the brand’s popular business at one of the city’s most iconic tourist destinations. The strike at the Original Ghirardelli Chocolate & Ice Cream Shop is the first in more than 40 years, and comes as unionized employees oppose a company proposal they said would gut their health care benefits, making them more expensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093346\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260730-GHIRARDELLI-STRIKE-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Workers picket outside Ghirardelli’s flagship store in San Francisco on July 30, 2026. (Courtesy of Unite Here)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fredrick Jones, a greeter at the shop for 17 years, told KQED he fears not being able to afford medication that keeps his body from rejecting a heart transplant he underwent last October.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This benefit that we have right now is very important to us. It helped me out big time with my heart transplant,” Jones, a 47-year-old San Francisco resident, said. “That’s why we’re doing this strike, to let people know that the company is not respecting employees like they should.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the Lindt & Sprüngli Group, which owns Ghirardelli, said in a statement that the company values and respects its employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ghirardelli, one of the nation’s oldest chocolate companies, was founded in San Francisco during the Gold Rush by Italian chocolatier Domenico “Domingo” Ghirardelli.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We are currently in active contract negotiations with the union and are committed to bargaining in good faith,” the spokesperson wrote in an e-mail. “Our main focus right now is on reaching an agreement that supports our employees and ensures the long-term success of our business.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lindt & Sprüngli, headquartered in Switzerland, posted nearly 6 billion Swiss francs in sales \u003ca href=\"https://www.lindt-spruengli.com/investors/financial-reporting/annual-report-2025\">last year\u003c/a>, or more than $7.3 billion. Its operating profits totaled 970 million francs, or about $1.2 billion, after expenses and the costs of goods.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union representing the 45 strikers accused the company of bargaining in bad faith by refusing to share relevant information, such as how much it profits from a 6% “healthcare fee” charged to customers at Ghirardelli Plaza locations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Management aims to switch employees’ health plan to one that would impose unaffordable co-payments for emergency room visits or critical services, said Sonya Karabel, campaign researcher at Unite Here Local 2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091961\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260219-strikingkaiserworkers00781_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Josh Sokolski (left) and Brenda Hinaga (right), both occupational therapists from Kaiser Walnut Creek, march while on strike at the picket line outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Feb. 19, 2026. Kaiser workers on the picket lines have gone without their paychecks for four weeks, and many are facing financial and other difficulties. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Customers expect, ‘Oh, okay, this [fee] is gonna cover workers’ health insurance.’ And yet, Ghirardelli is trying to cut their health insurance,” Karabel said. “They need to be transparent about what kind of resources they’re getting from customers that are supposed to be dedicated to paying for health care coverage.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last year, disputes over health benefits became a flash point driving work stoppages nationwide, as medical coverage costs continued to rise, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ilr.cornell.edu/faculty-and-research/labor-action-tracker-2025\">a report\u003c/a> by researchers at Cornell University’s Labor Action Tracker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent months, Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083589/uc-reaches-contract-deal-with-service-hospital-workers-averting-strike\">service workers\u003c/a> at the University of California, warehouse staff at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092155/arrests-injuries-at-ch-sugar-protest-as-strike-at-crockett-refinery-enters-sixth-week\">C&H Sugar refinery\u003c/a> in Crockett and patient care \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074265/widespread-kaiser-strike-to-end-after-4-weeks-with-no-deal-yet\">employees at Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> have said that protecting or improving their health insurance was a main reason for striking.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "these-peers-provided-alternative-911-responders-san-francisco-is-removing-them",
"title": "These Peers Provided Alternative 911 Responders. San Francisco Is Removing Them",
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"headTitle": "These Peers Provided Alternative 911 Responders. San Francisco Is Removing Them | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>After losing her job because of substance abuse, Chantel Hernandez-Wood was living \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1994288/you-mean-something-to-someone-overcoming-homelessness-and-addiction-this-san-francisco-woman-now-helps-others-heal\">on the streets of San Francisco\u003c/a> when she saw a red van parked nearby one day in 2022. It was the city’s former Street Overdose Response Team, and she flagged them down for help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Equipped with a peer counselor trained to connect with people in crisis, the crew drove her to a recovery center, where she received medication to assist with alcohol withdrawal and entered a 90-day recovery program. While there, she decided she wanted to do the same kind of work as the people who came to her rescue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It felt like I meant something to someone. They went above and beyond to help get me off the streets,” Hernandez-Wood told KQED. “I thought, ‘I’d love to do that, I want to give back.’”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After successfully finishing the recovery program, Hernandez-Wood completed training to become a certified peer support specialist, learning techniques to engage with vulnerable populations and navigate social services. She started working at the nonprofit Glide, helping people who struggle with drug use, went on to work on the city’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1994288/you-mean-something-to-someone-overcoming-homelessness-and-addiction-this-san-francisco-woman-now-helps-others-heal\">Street Overdose Response Team\u003c/a>, and later stepped into her current role as a peer responder on the Street Crisis Response Team. Peer responders currently pair with fire department paramedics to respond to some calls together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged woman stands in front of a red van labeled 'Street Overdose Response Team'\" class=\"wp-image-12014173\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Counselor Chantel Hernandez-Wood, member of the Street Overdose Response Team, gets supplies from her van after speaking with two people sitting on the street in the South of Market neighborhood in San Francisco on Sept. 3, 2024. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was so surreal, because I was working on the same type of team that helped me when I needed help the most,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But now, San Francisco is quietly shifting its emergency response networks and the roles that peers with lived experience have within them. The fire department is planning to remove peer specialists from its 911 response this summer, setting off alarms for peer advocates who say the decision is a regressive step in the city’s approach to mental and behavioral health emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s just an incredible disservice to the community,” Hernandez-Wood said. “I feel blindsided.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fire department officials said the move to pull peers off of the Street Crisis Response Team came after “careful consideration,” and cited challenges with scheduling that made picking up the peer responders before calls difficult. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This decision was not made lightly and reflects the evolving needs and direction of crisis response within the larger 911 system,” a spokesperson for the fire department said in an email. “We believe that by working together within the Street Response framework, SFFD can ensure those we serve continue to receive the appropriate response.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Widespread protests against police brutality in 2020 sparked national discussions around how first responders can better serve people experiencing a mental health crisis, overdose or other behavioral health issues. In the wake of those conversations, the city did not decrease its police budget, but instead created new teams to respond to people in crisis, including the Street Crisis Response Team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The peer responders are not fire department employees, but are contracted through the nonprofit RAMS, which the Department of Public Health administers. Others are specialists with the San Francisco Homeless Outreach Team. The Department of Public Health declined to comment on the staffing changes, saying the Street Crisis Response Team is under the fire department’s purview. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Peer responders with the Street Crisis Response Team help address issues ranging from a street-level overdose to a domestic dispute in a penthouse, offering support for de-escalation, navigating social services and sometimes bringing lived experiences to a crew of medical and safety professionals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Over the years, I’ve noticed that a lot of people will look to their peers for guidance or answers because we’re not in uniform,” Hernandez-Wood said. “A lot of unhoused folks that have substance use disorders, they don’t want to talk to anybody in uniform, they just feel more comfortable and less intimidated.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco has served as a model for other cities and jurisdictions looking to improve the way that they address complicated 911 emergency calls. A 2024 \u003ca href=\"https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58a33e881b631bc60d4f8b31/t/668d922525a2bc711295fe86/1720554079016/San+Francisco%27s+Public+Safety+System\">report\u003c/a> by the Policing Project at New York University found that the city’s programs “saved law enforcement resources, freeing up the police for other more pressing work.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092840\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A San Francisco fire engine on March 25, 2026. (Smith Collection/Gado via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the novel approach presented challenges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the report, “911 dispatchers are stretched thin and struggle with the scripted protocols they must use to assess call eligibility, in particular because those protocols may not always resolve the calls they receive. There still is some confusion among frontline workers about responsibilities of each at the scene of an incident. And many community members and some call takers are disappointed that alternative responses are not solving complex social problems.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Fire Department has meanwhile been developing its Community Paramedicine team, whose members have training in trauma-informed care and resource navigation, to more appropriately respond to people struggling with substance use, mental health crises, homelessness and other behavioral health challenges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The community paramedics have more training in emergency medicine, and they arrive in uniform and steel-toed boots, unlike the peer specialists, who work in regular street clothes, a small but important detail that can signal a more relatable helper for some 911 callers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The last day on the Street Crisis Response rigs for peer responders, who say their lived experience is central to their expertise, is Aug. 14.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Amelia Harmon, who works with peer responders on the Street Crisis Response Team, has been advocating to keep the positions within the fire department at public health and law enforcement commission meetings, as well as urging city supervisors to step in to reverse the decision. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said it’s especially urgent after behavioral health clinicians were removed from the Street Crisis Response Team in 2023. Pulling peer responders off of 911 responses is further “chipping away” at the work that she and others have spent the last five years building, she said. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>“Removing peers doesn’t cut costs, it moves costs to the most expensive part of the system,” said Harmon, a peer supervisor with RAMS. “Why would we forfeit high-quality care that has mechanisms for federal and state reimbursement in this budget climate?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to remove peer specialists from 911 responses is also drawing wider criticism from other workers in the city’s homelessness response system and public safety. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have personal experience with crisis, and I would rather speak to a non-uniformed peer,” said Joshua Cantero, a case manager at a San Francisco homeless shelter, in a letter to the Board of Supervisors. A peer counselor, Cantero wrote, “makes the clients feel more comfortable and assists with getting them into shelters and making them feel safe.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not yet clear what will happen next to the peer responders. They have not received layoff notices and could be reassigned to different street teams. Fire department officials said they will continue to refer people to experts with lived experience when it’s appropriate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Harmon is desperate to keep the peer responders on 911 calls, saying she’s seen firsthand how their approach can be both life-saving and ease the burden for other first responders. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Why would you cut out the heart and soul of the program,” she said, “and risk burning out your own people?”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Equipped with a peer counselor trained to connect with people in crisis, the crew drove her to a recovery center, where she received medication to assist with alcohol withdrawal and entered a 90-day recovery program. While there, she decided she wanted to do the same kind of work as the people who came to her rescue. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Equipped with a peer counselor trained to connect with people in crisis, the crew drove her to a recovery center, where she received medication to assist with alcohol withdrawal and entered a 90-day recovery program. While there, she decided she wanted to do the same kind of work as the people who came to her rescue. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It felt like I meant something to someone. They went above and beyond to help get me off the streets,” Hernandez-Wood told KQED. “I thought, ‘I’d love to do that, I want to give back.’”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It felt like I meant something to someone. They went above and beyond to help get me off the streets,” Hernandez-Wood told KQED. “I thought, ‘I’d love to do that, I want to give back.’”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After successfully finishing the recovery program, Hernandez-Wood completed training to become a certified peer support specialist, learning techniques to engage with vulnerable populations and navigate social services. She started working at the nonprofit Glide, helping people who struggle with drug use, went on to work on the city’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1994288/you-mean-something-to-someone-overcoming-homelessness-and-addiction-this-san-francisco-woman-now-helps-others-heal\">Street Overdose Response Team\u003c/a>, and later stepped into her current role as a peer responder on the Street Crisis Response Team. Peer responders currently pair with fire department paramedics to respond to some calls together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After successfully finishing the recovery program, Hernandez-Wood completed training to become a certified peer support specialist, learning techniques to engage with vulnerable populations and navigate social services. She started working at the nonprofit Glide, helping people who struggle with drug use, went on to work on the city’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1994288/you-mean-something-to-someone-overcoming-homelessness-and-addiction-this-san-francisco-woman-now-helps-others-heal\">Street Overdose Response Team\u003c/a>, and later stepped into her current role as a peer responder on the Street Crisis Response Team. Peer responders currently pair with fire department paramedics to respond to some calls together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged woman stands in front of a red van labeled 'Street Overdose Response Team'\" class=\"wp-image-12014173\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Counselor Chantel Hernandez-Wood, member of the Street Overdose Response Team, gets supplies from her van after speaking with two people sitting on the street in the South of Market neighborhood in San Francisco on Sept. 3, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It was so surreal, because I was working on the same type of team that helped me when I needed help the most,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now, San Francisco is quietly shifting its emergency response networks and the roles that peers with lived experience have within them. The fire department is planning to remove peer specialists from its 911 response this summer, setting off alarms for peer advocates who say the decision is a regressive step in the city’s approach to mental and behavioral health emergencies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But now, San Francisco is quietly shifting its emergency response networks and the roles that peers with lived experience have within them. The fire department is planning to remove peer specialists from its 911 response this summer, setting off alarms for peer advocates who say the decision is a regressive step in the city’s approach to mental and behavioral health emergencies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s just an incredible disservice to the community,” Hernandez-Wood said. “I feel blindsided.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s just an incredible disservice to the community,” Hernandez-Wood said. “I feel blindsided.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Fire department officials said the move to pull peers off of the Street Crisis Response Team came after “careful consideration,” and cited challenges with scheduling that made picking up the peer responders before calls difficult. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Fire department officials said the move to pull peers off of the Street Crisis Response Team came after “careful consideration,” and cited challenges with scheduling that made picking up the peer responders before calls difficult. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This decision was not made lightly and reflects the evolving needs and direction of crisis response within the larger 911 system,” a spokesperson for the fire department said in an email. “We believe that by working together within the Street Response framework, SFFD can ensure those we serve continue to receive the appropriate response.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“This decision was not made lightly and reflects the evolving needs and direction of crisis response within the larger 911 system,” a spokesperson for the fire department said in an email. “We believe that by working together within the Street Response framework, SFFD can ensure those we serve continue to receive the appropriate response.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Widespread protests against police brutality in 2020 sparked national discussions around how first responders can better serve people experiencing a mental health crisis, overdose or other behavioral health issues. In the wake of those conversations, the city did not decrease its police budget, but instead created new teams to respond to people in crisis, including the Street Crisis Response Team.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Widespread protests against police brutality in 2020 sparked national discussions around how first responders can better serve people experiencing a mental health crisis, overdose or other behavioral health issues. In the wake of those conversations, the city did not decrease its police budget, but instead created new teams to respond to people in crisis, including the Street Crisis Response Team.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The peer responders are not fire department employees, but are contracted through the nonprofit RAMS, which the Department of Public Health administers. Others are specialists with the San Francisco Homeless Outreach Team. The Department of Public Health declined to comment on the staffing changes, saying the Street Crisis Response Team is under the fire department’s purview. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The peer responders are not fire department employees, but are contracted through the nonprofit RAMS, which the Department of Public Health administers. Others are specialists with the San Francisco Homeless Outreach Team. The Department of Public Health declined to comment on the staffing changes, saying the Street Crisis Response Team is under the fire department’s purview. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Peer responders with the Street Crisis Response Team help address issues ranging from a street-level overdose to a domestic dispute in a penthouse, offering support for de-escalation, navigating social services and sometimes bringing lived experiences to a crew of medical and safety professionals. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Peer responders with the Street Crisis Response Team help address issues ranging from a street-level overdose to a domestic dispute in a penthouse, offering support for de-escalation, navigating social services and sometimes bringing lived experiences to a crew of medical and safety professionals. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Over the years, I’ve noticed that a lot of people will look to their peers for guidance or answers because we’re not in uniform,” Hernandez-Wood said. “A lot of unhoused folks that have substance use disorders, they don’t want to talk to anybody in uniform, they just feel more comfortable and less intimidated.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Over the years, I’ve noticed that a lot of people will look to their peers for guidance or answers because we’re not in uniform,” Hernandez-Wood said. “A lot of unhoused folks that have substance use disorders, they don’t want to talk to anybody in uniform, they just feel more comfortable and less intimidated.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco has served as a model for other cities and jurisdictions looking to improve the way that they address complicated 911 emergency calls. A 2024 \u003ca href=\"https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58a33e881b631bc60d4f8b31/t/668d922525a2bc711295fe86/1720554079016/San+Francisco%27s+Public+Safety+System\">report\u003c/a> by the Policing Project at New York University found that the city’s programs “saved law enforcement resources, freeing up the police for other more pressing work.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San Francisco has served as a model for other cities and jurisdictions looking to improve the way that they address complicated 911 emergency calls. A 2024 \u003ca href=\"https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58a33e881b631bc60d4f8b31/t/668d922525a2bc711295fe86/1720554079016/San+Francisco%27s+Public+Safety+System\">report\u003c/a> by the Policing Project at New York University found that the city’s programs “saved law enforcement resources, freeing up the police for other more pressing work.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092840\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A San Francisco fire engine on March 25, 2026. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092840\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A San Francisco fire engine on March 25, 2026. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the novel approach presented challenges. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the novel approach presented challenges. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to the report, “911 dispatchers are stretched thin and struggle with the scripted protocols they must use to assess call eligibility, in particular because those protocols may not always resolve the calls they receive. There still is some confusion among frontline workers about responsibilities of each at the scene of an incident. And many community members and some call takers are disappointed that alternative responses are not solving complex social problems.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to the report, “911 dispatchers are stretched thin and struggle with the scripted protocols they must use to assess call eligibility, in particular because those protocols may not always resolve the calls they receive. There still is some confusion among frontline workers about responsibilities of each at the scene of an incident. And many community members and some call takers are disappointed that alternative responses are not solving complex social problems.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Fire Department has meanwhile been developing its Community Paramedicine team, whose members have training in trauma-informed care and resource navigation, to more appropriately respond to people struggling with substance use, mental health crises, homelessness and other behavioral health challenges. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Fire Department has meanwhile been developing its Community Paramedicine team, whose members have training in trauma-informed care and resource navigation, to more appropriately respond to people struggling with substance use, mental health crises, homelessness and other behavioral health challenges. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The community paramedics have more training in emergency medicine, and they arrive in uniform and steel-toed boots, unlike the peer specialists, who work in regular street clothes, a small but important detail that can signal a more relatable helper for some 911 callers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The community paramedics have more training in emergency medicine, and they arrive in uniform and steel-toed boots, unlike the peer specialists, who work in regular street clothes, a small but important detail that can signal a more relatable helper for some 911 callers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The last day on the Street Crisis Response rigs for peer responders, who say their lived experience is central to their expertise, is Aug. 14.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The last day on the Street Crisis Response rigs for peer responders, who say their lived experience is central to their expertise, is Aug. 14.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Amelia Harmon, who works with peer responders on the Street Crisis Response Team, has been advocating to keep the positions within the fire department at public health and law enforcement commission meetings, as well as urging city supervisors to step in to reverse the decision. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Amelia Harmon, who works with peer responders on the Street Crisis Response Team, has been advocating to keep the positions within the fire department at public health and law enforcement commission meetings, as well as urging city supervisors to step in to reverse the decision. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She said it’s especially urgent after behavioral health clinicians were removed from the Street Crisis Response Team in 2023. Pulling peer responders off of 911 responses is further “chipping away” at the work that she and others have spent the last five years building, she said. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>“Removing peers doesn’t cut costs, it moves costs to the most expensive part of the system,” said Harmon, a peer supervisor with RAMS. “Why would we forfeit high-quality care that has mechanisms for federal and state reimbursement in this budget climate?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She said it’s especially urgent after behavioral health clinicians were removed from the Street Crisis Response Team in 2023. Pulling peer responders off of 911 responses is further “chipping away” at the work that she and others have spent the last five years building, she said. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>“Removing peers doesn’t cut costs, it moves costs to the most expensive part of the system,” said Harmon, a peer supervisor with RAMS. “Why would we forfeit high-quality care that has mechanisms for federal and state reimbursement in this budget climate?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The decision to remove peer specialists from 911 responses is also drawing wider criticism from other workers in the city’s homelessness response system and public safety. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The decision to remove peer specialists from 911 responses is also drawing wider criticism from other workers in the city’s homelessness response system and public safety. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I have personal experience with crisis, and I would rather speak to a non-uniformed peer,” said Joshua Cantero, a case manager at a San Francisco homeless shelter, in a letter to the Board of Supervisors. A peer counselor, Cantero wrote, “makes the clients feel more comfortable and assists with getting them into shelters and making them feel safe.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I have personal experience with crisis, and I would rather speak to a non-uniformed peer,” said Joshua Cantero, a case manager at a San Francisco homeless shelter, in a letter to the Board of Supervisors. A peer counselor, Cantero wrote, “makes the clients feel more comfortable and assists with getting them into shelters and making them feel safe.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s not yet clear what will happen next to the peer responders. They have not received layoff notices and could be reassigned to different street teams. Fire department officials said they will continue to refer people to experts with lived experience when it’s appropriate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s not yet clear what will happen next to the peer responders. They have not received layoff notices and could be reassigned to different street teams. Fire department officials said they will continue to refer people to experts with lived experience when it’s appropriate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Harmon is desperate to keep the peer responders on 911 calls, saying she’s seen firsthand how their approach can be both life-saving and ease the burden for other first responders. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Harmon is desperate to keep the peer responders on 911 calls, saying she’s seen firsthand how their approach can be both life-saving and ease the burden for other first responders. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Why would you cut out the heart and soul of the program,” she said, “and risk burning out your own people?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Why would you cut out the heart and soul of the program,” she said, “and risk burning out your own people?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>After losing her job because of substance abuse, Chantel Hernandez-Wood was living \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1994288/you-mean-something-to-someone-overcoming-homelessness-and-addiction-this-san-francisco-woman-now-helps-others-heal\">on the streets of San Francisco\u003c/a> when she saw a red van parked nearby one day in 2022. It was the city’s former Street Overdose Response Team, and she flagged them down for help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Equipped with a peer counselor trained to connect with people in crisis, the crew drove her to a recovery center, where she received medication to assist with alcohol withdrawal and entered a 90-day recovery program. While there, she decided she wanted to do the same kind of work as the people who came to her rescue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It felt like I meant something to someone. They went above and beyond to help get me off the streets,” Hernandez-Wood told KQED. “I thought, ‘I’d love to do that, I want to give back.’”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After successfully finishing the recovery program, Hernandez-Wood completed training to become a certified peer support specialist, learning techniques to engage with vulnerable populations and navigate social services. She started working at the nonprofit Glide, helping people who struggle with drug use, went on to work on the city’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1994288/you-mean-something-to-someone-overcoming-homelessness-and-addiction-this-san-francisco-woman-now-helps-others-heal\">Street Overdose Response Team\u003c/a>, and later stepped into her current role as a peer responder on the Street Crisis Response Team. Peer responders currently pair with fire department paramedics to respond to some calls together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged woman stands in front of a red van labeled 'Street Overdose Response Team'\" class=\"wp-image-12014173\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240903-OverdoseResponse-48-BL_qed-1-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Counselor Chantel Hernandez-Wood, member of the Street Overdose Response Team, gets supplies from her van after speaking with two people sitting on the street in the South of Market neighborhood in San Francisco on Sept. 3, 2024. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was so surreal, because I was working on the same type of team that helped me when I needed help the most,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But now, San Francisco is quietly shifting its emergency response networks and the roles that peers with lived experience have within them. The fire department is planning to remove peer specialists from its 911 response this summer, setting off alarms for peer advocates who say the decision is a regressive step in the city’s approach to mental and behavioral health emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s just an incredible disservice to the community,” Hernandez-Wood said. “I feel blindsided.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fire department officials said the move to pull peers off of the Street Crisis Response Team came after “careful consideration,” and cited challenges with scheduling that made picking up the peer responders before calls difficult. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This decision was not made lightly and reflects the evolving needs and direction of crisis response within the larger 911 system,” a spokesperson for the fire department said in an email. “We believe that by working together within the Street Response framework, SFFD can ensure those we serve continue to receive the appropriate response.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Widespread protests against police brutality in 2020 sparked national discussions around how first responders can better serve people experiencing a mental health crisis, overdose or other behavioral health issues. In the wake of those conversations, the city did not decrease its police budget, but instead created new teams to respond to people in crisis, including the Street Crisis Response Team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The peer responders are not fire department employees, but are contracted through the nonprofit RAMS, which the Department of Public Health administers. Others are specialists with the San Francisco Homeless Outreach Team. The Department of Public Health declined to comment on the staffing changes, saying the Street Crisis Response Team is under the fire department’s purview. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Peer responders with the Street Crisis Response Team help address issues ranging from a street-level overdose to a domestic dispute in a penthouse, offering support for de-escalation, navigating social services and sometimes bringing lived experiences to a crew of medical and safety professionals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Over the years, I’ve noticed that a lot of people will look to their peers for guidance or answers because we’re not in uniform,” Hernandez-Wood said. “A lot of unhoused folks that have substance use disorders, they don’t want to talk to anybody in uniform, they just feel more comfortable and less intimidated.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco has served as a model for other cities and jurisdictions looking to improve the way that they address complicated 911 emergency calls. A 2024 \u003ca href=\"https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58a33e881b631bc60d4f8b31/t/668d922525a2bc711295fe86/1720554079016/San+Francisco%27s+Public+Safety+System\">report\u003c/a> by the Policing Project at New York University found that the city’s programs “saved law enforcement resources, freeing up the police for other more pressing work.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092840\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/San-Francisco-Fire-Dept-Getty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A San Francisco fire engine on March 25, 2026. (Smith Collection/Gado via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the novel approach presented challenges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the report, “911 dispatchers are stretched thin and struggle with the scripted protocols they must use to assess call eligibility, in particular because those protocols may not always resolve the calls they receive. There still is some confusion among frontline workers about responsibilities of each at the scene of an incident. And many community members and some call takers are disappointed that alternative responses are not solving complex social problems.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Fire Department has meanwhile been developing its Community Paramedicine team, whose members have training in trauma-informed care and resource navigation, to more appropriately respond to people struggling with substance use, mental health crises, homelessness and other behavioral health challenges. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The community paramedics have more training in emergency medicine, and they arrive in uniform and steel-toed boots, unlike the peer specialists, who work in regular street clothes, a small but important detail that can signal a more relatable helper for some 911 callers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The last day on the Street Crisis Response rigs for peer responders, who say their lived experience is central to their expertise, is Aug. 14.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Amelia Harmon, who works with peer responders on the Street Crisis Response Team, has been advocating to keep the positions within the fire department at public health and law enforcement commission meetings, as well as urging city supervisors to step in to reverse the decision. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said it’s especially urgent after behavioral health clinicians were removed from the Street Crisis Response Team in 2023. Pulling peer responders off of 911 responses is further “chipping away” at the work that she and others have spent the last five years building, she said. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>“Removing peers doesn’t cut costs, it moves costs to the most expensive part of the system,” said Harmon, a peer supervisor with RAMS. “Why would we forfeit high-quality care that has mechanisms for federal and state reimbursement in this budget climate?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to remove peer specialists from 911 responses is also drawing wider criticism from other workers in the city’s homelessness response system and public safety. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have personal experience with crisis, and I would rather speak to a non-uniformed peer,” said Joshua Cantero, a case manager at a San Francisco homeless shelter, in a letter to the Board of Supervisors. A peer counselor, Cantero wrote, “makes the clients feel more comfortable and assists with getting them into shelters and making them feel safe.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not yet clear what will happen next to the peer responders. They have not received layoff notices and could be reassigned to different street teams. Fire department officials said they will continue to refer people to experts with lived experience when it’s appropriate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Harmon is desperate to keep the peer responders on 911 calls, saying she’s seen firsthand how their approach can be both life-saving and ease the burden for other first responders. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Why would you cut out the heart and soul of the program,” she said, “and risk burning out your own people?”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "uc-doctors-seek-to-unionize-10000-colleagues-in-massive-campaign",
"title": "UC Doctors Seek to Unionize 10,000 Colleagues in Massive Campaign",
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"headTitle": "UC Doctors Seek to Unionize 10,000 Colleagues in Massive Campaign | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/university-of-california\">University of California\u003c/a> is confronting a large unionization effort among employees who have historically stayed outside of unions: doctors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital on Thursday, physicians announced their plans to form a union with SEIU Doctors United — a partnership between Doctors Council, Service Employees International Union and Committee of Interns and Residents that represents more than 45,000 doctors nationwide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The move points to a marked shift in the healthcare industry, where in the past, it has been somewhat rare for generally highly paid doctors to join unions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But interest in collective bargaining within the medical profession has accelerated, particularly post-pandemic, as more physicians report deteriorating working conditions and a loss of clinical autonomy amidst an increasingly consolidated and profit-driven industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092511\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Doctors attend a press conference held by UCSF attending doctors to announce the UC unionization effort with SEIU Doctors United at Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital on July 23, 2026, in San Francisco, California. (Thos Robinson/Getty Images for SEIU Doctors United)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Attending physicians at UC, who make clinical decisions and often supervise residents and medical students, said they are stretched thin with unsustainable patient loads, understaffing and less decision-making power — concerns often echoed by nurses and other patient care workers with higher union participation rates.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes I do feel, especially as a primary care physician, overwhelmed,” Dr. Radhika Rajan, a UCSF pediatrician at SF General, told KQED. “The work that we have to do does not stop when we are leaving [the] clinic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So many of us are excited to unionize because the goal is to be able to have the resources to provide better care for our patients,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, UC said it takes concerns about physicians’ workload, staffing and professional support seriously, adding that burnout is a nationwide challenge driven by workforce shortages and other factors. UC Health leaders regularly work with staff physicians to improve the job environment and evaluate hiring and retention needs, the university said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We remain committed to listening to physicians and clinical faculty, addressing concerns and continuously improving the experience of the people who make UC Health’s clinical, educational and research missions possible,” UC’s statement said. “UC Health locations continually assess staffing, recruitment, security practices and workplace needs, recognizing that conditions vary across specialties, departments and care settings.”\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About $24 billion, \u003ca href=\"https://health.universityofcalifornia.edu/sites/default/files/2025-02/uc-health-fact-sheet-web.pdf\">nearly 40%\u003c/a> of the university’s total revenue last year, came from its six academic health centers, serving 2.5 million Californians. UC is the state’s second largest employer and the nation’s largest public healthcare system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Labor experts said it’s unlikely that university executives would welcome a new large doctors’ union. If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucdoctorsunited.org/\">UC Doctors United\u003c/a> organizing campaign is successful, it could inspire doctors elsewhere to seek a collective voice on the job, according to John Logan, director of labor and employment studies at San Francisco State University. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A second union, University Professional & Technical Employees, is also \u003ca href=\"https://uc-physicians.org/\">organizing\u003c/a> attending physicians at UC. According to Logan, over half of these doctors systemwide would have to show union support in order for the university to be required to recognize them as a unit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People who run the university undoubtedly will not want 10,000 doctors at the UC system to unionize and to have to bargain collectively over things that they can unilaterally decide at the moment,” Logan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The university this month reached a \u003ca href=\"https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-and-cir-seiu-reach-tentative-contract-agreement\">tentative agreement\u003c/a> with the Committee of Interns and Residents, which represents 6,400 resident physicians and fellows who generally earn lower incomes than attending doctors. The deal includes an 18% salary increase and improvements to address emergency room capacity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In California, attending physicians earn more than $200,000 per year on average, depending on location, experience and specialty, according to Salary.com.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11221793/\">less than 10%\u003c/a> of practicing physicians are union members.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was updated to include a comment from the University of California, which did not respond before original publication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital on Thursday, physicians announced their plans to form a union with SEIU Doctors United — a partnership between Doctors Council, Service Employees International Union and Committee of Interns and Residents that represents more than 45,000 doctors nationwide.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, UC said it takes concerns about physicians’ workload, staffing and professional support seriously, adding that burnout is a nationwide challenge driven by workforce shortages and other factors. UC Health leaders regularly work with staff physicians to improve the job environment and evaluate hiring and retention needs, the university said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We remain committed to listening to physicians and clinical faculty, addressing concerns and continuously improving the experience of the people who make UC Health’s clinical, educational and research missions possible,” UC’s statement said. “UC Health locations continually assess staffing, recruitment, security practices and workplace needs, recognizing that conditions vary across specialties, departments and care settings.”\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>About $24 billion, \u003ca href=\"https://health.universityofcalifornia.edu/sites/default/files/2025-02/uc-health-fact-sheet-web.pdf\">nearly 40%\u003c/a> of the university’s total revenue last year, came from its six academic health centers, serving 2.5 million Californians. UC is the state’s second largest employer and the nation’s largest public healthcare system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Labor experts said it’s unlikely that university executives would welcome a new large doctors’ union. If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucdoctorsunited.org/\">UC Doctors United\u003c/a> organizing campaign is successful, it could inspire doctors elsewhere to seek a collective voice on the job, according to John Logan, director of labor and employment studies at San Francisco State University. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A second union, University Professional & Technical Employees, is also \u003ca href=\"https://uc-physicians.org/\">organizing\u003c/a> attending physicians at UC. According to Logan, over half of these doctors systemwide would have to show union support in order for the university to be required to recognize them as a unit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“People who run the university undoubtedly will not want 10,000 doctors at the UC system to unionize and to have to bargain collectively over things that they can unilaterally decide at the moment,” Logan said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The university this month reached a \u003ca href=\"https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-and-cir-seiu-reach-tentative-contract-agreement\">tentative agreement\u003c/a> with the Committee of Interns and Residents, which represents 6,400 resident physicians and fellows who generally earn lower incomes than attending doctors. The deal includes an 18% salary increase and improvements to address emergency room capacity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In California, attending physicians earn more than $200,000 per year on average, depending on location, experience and specialty, according to Salary.com.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11221793/\">less than 10%\u003c/a> of practicing physicians are union members.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was updated to include a comment from the University of California, which did not respond before original publication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The University of California is the state’s second largest employer and its health centers serve 2.5 million Californians across the state each year. ",
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"title": "UC Doctors Seek to Unionize 10,000 Colleagues in Massive Campaign | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/university-of-california\">University of California\u003c/a> is confronting a large unionization effort among employees who have historically stayed outside of unions: doctors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital on Thursday, physicians announced their plans to form a union with SEIU Doctors United — a partnership between Doctors Council, Service Employees International Union and Committee of Interns and Residents that represents more than 45,000 doctors nationwide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The move points to a marked shift in the healthcare industry, where in the past, it has been somewhat rare for generally highly paid doctors to join unions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But interest in collective bargaining within the medical profession has accelerated, particularly post-pandemic, as more physicians report deteriorating working conditions and a loss of clinical autonomy amidst an increasingly consolidated and profit-driven industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092511\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/UCDoctors3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Doctors attend a press conference held by UCSF attending doctors to announce the UC unionization effort with SEIU Doctors United at Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital on July 23, 2026, in San Francisco, California. (Thos Robinson/Getty Images for SEIU Doctors United)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Attending physicians at UC, who make clinical decisions and often supervise residents and medical students, said they are stretched thin with unsustainable patient loads, understaffing and less decision-making power — concerns often echoed by nurses and other patient care workers with higher union participation rates.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes I do feel, especially as a primary care physician, overwhelmed,” Dr. Radhika Rajan, a UCSF pediatrician at SF General, told KQED. “The work that we have to do does not stop when we are leaving [the] clinic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So many of us are excited to unionize because the goal is to be able to have the resources to provide better care for our patients,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, UC said it takes concerns about physicians’ workload, staffing and professional support seriously, adding that burnout is a nationwide challenge driven by workforce shortages and other factors. UC Health leaders regularly work with staff physicians to improve the job environment and evaluate hiring and retention needs, the university said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We remain committed to listening to physicians and clinical faculty, addressing concerns and continuously improving the experience of the people who make UC Health’s clinical, educational and research missions possible,” UC’s statement said. “UC Health locations continually assess staffing, recruitment, security practices and workplace needs, recognizing that conditions vary across specialties, departments and care settings.”\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About $24 billion, \u003ca href=\"https://health.universityofcalifornia.edu/sites/default/files/2025-02/uc-health-fact-sheet-web.pdf\">nearly 40%\u003c/a> of the university’s total revenue last year, came from its six academic health centers, serving 2.5 million Californians. UC is the state’s second largest employer and the nation’s largest public healthcare system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Labor experts said it’s unlikely that university executives would welcome a new large doctors’ union. If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucdoctorsunited.org/\">UC Doctors United\u003c/a> organizing campaign is successful, it could inspire doctors elsewhere to seek a collective voice on the job, according to John Logan, director of labor and employment studies at San Francisco State University. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A second union, University Professional & Technical Employees, is also \u003ca href=\"https://uc-physicians.org/\">organizing\u003c/a> attending physicians at UC. According to Logan, over half of these doctors systemwide would have to show union support in order for the university to be required to recognize them as a unit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People who run the university undoubtedly will not want 10,000 doctors at the UC system to unionize and to have to bargain collectively over things that they can unilaterally decide at the moment,” Logan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The university this month reached a \u003ca href=\"https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/uc-and-cir-seiu-reach-tentative-contract-agreement\">tentative agreement\u003c/a> with the Committee of Interns and Residents, which represents 6,400 resident physicians and fellows who generally earn lower incomes than attending doctors. The deal includes an 18% salary increase and improvements to address emergency room capacity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In California, attending physicians earn more than $200,000 per year on average, depending on location, experience and specialty, according to Salary.com.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11221793/\">less than 10%\u003c/a> of practicing physicians are union members.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was updated to include a comment from the University of California, which did not respond before original publication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Staff at the San Francisco-Based Foundation Behind Wikipedia Demand Union Recognition",
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"content": "\u003cp>Workers at the Wikimedia Foundation — the San Francisco-based foundation that hosts \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/wikipedia\">Wikipedia\u003c/a> — demanded voluntary recognition of their union, Wiki Workers United U.S., on Monday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The staff who run the platform say they want a stronger voice in their workplace, better job protections and an end to common practices that make life “precarious for everyday workers,” according to Jeremy Bernick, one of the union organizers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They gave the foundation until Friday to respond to their request for recognition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia, the world’s largest encyclopedia, hosts roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">65 million entries\u003c/a> in \u003ca href=\"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias\">364 languages\u003c/a>. It is considered a backbone of the internet — boasting an average of 508 million views per day for the past decade, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/01/13/wikipedia-at-25-what-the-data-tells-us/#how-many-people-visit-wikipedia\">Pew Research Center\u003c/a>. While Wikipedia is the nonprofit’s largest and most well-known project, the Wikimedia Foundation, which did not respond to requests for comment, supports over a dozen related “sister” projects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092438\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Wikipedia homepage on March 11, 2011. (SD619/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said that this campaign is the workers’ third attempt at unionizing and the farthest they’ve gotten in the process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think there is a lot of fear right now,” Bernick said — highlighting the Trump administration’s attacks on public media, the cost of living crisis and concerns about artificial intelligence as some of the factors driving more staff toward unionization. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As employers make decisions about how and when to integrate AI, Bernick wants to see “workers in the loop.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without our say, these systems are not really effective,” Bernick said. “A lot of the time they can make our work less impactful or more strenuous.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release from the Communications Workers of America — Wiki Workers United’s parent union — also said that “recent events at the Wikimedia Foundation have drastically escalated worker concerns regarding transparency, trust, the organization’s future, and leadership’s commitment to the free knowledge movement.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May, the foundation disbanded the Community Tech team, the bridge between the foundation and the volunteers who update the articles. The decision sparked major backlash, in part, because the team was largely composed of union members, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Workers_United_solidarity\">petition\u003c/a> written by Wikipedia editors with 1,190 signatures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia editors are a group of nearly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">280,000 volunteers\u003c/a> who write and edit the articles. The petition states that the undersigned editors, who have cumulatively made over 17,582,148 edits, according to the page, will strike in support of the union if called. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This demand for recognition comes after the U.K. chapter of Wiki Workers United made a similar request of the foundation last month, according to the press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union hopes to be a sign that it’s OK for tech workers to ask for protections, Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You don’t have to accept the status quo,” Bernick said. “We see having a union as sort of a basic right.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wikipedia, the world’s largest encyclopedia, hosts roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">65 million entries\u003c/a> in \u003ca href=\"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias\">364 languages\u003c/a>. It is considered a backbone of the internet — boasting an average of 508 million views per day for the past decade, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/01/13/wikipedia-at-25-what-the-data-tells-us/#how-many-people-visit-wikipedia\">Pew Research Center\u003c/a>. While Wikipedia is the nonprofit’s largest and most well-known project, the Wikimedia Foundation, which did not respond to requests for comment, supports over a dozen related “sister” projects. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think there is a lot of fear right now,” Bernick said — highlighting the Trump administration’s attacks on public media, the cost of living crisis and concerns about artificial intelligence as some of the factors driving more staff toward unionization. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Without our say, these systems are not really effective,” Bernick said. “A lot of the time they can make our work less impactful or more strenuous.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A press release from the Communications Workers of America — Wiki Workers United’s parent union — also said that “recent events at the Wikimedia Foundation have drastically escalated worker concerns regarding transparency, trust, the organization’s future, and leadership’s commitment to the free knowledge movement.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In May, the foundation disbanded the Community Tech team, the bridge between the foundation and the volunteers who update the articles. The decision sparked major backlash, in part, because the team was largely composed of union members, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Workers_United_solidarity\">petition\u003c/a> written by Wikipedia editors with 1,190 signatures.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This demand for recognition comes after the U.K. chapter of Wiki Workers United made a similar request of the foundation last month, according to the press release. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The union hopes to be a sign that it’s OK for tech workers to ask for protections, Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“You don’t have to accept the status quo,” Bernick said. “We see having a union as sort of a basic right.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Workers at the Wikimedia Foundation — the San Francisco-based foundation that hosts \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/wikipedia\">Wikipedia\u003c/a> — demanded voluntary recognition of their union, Wiki Workers United U.S., on Monday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The staff who run the platform say they want a stronger voice in their workplace, better job protections and an end to common practices that make life “precarious for everyday workers,” according to Jeremy Bernick, one of the union organizers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They gave the foundation until Friday to respond to their request for recognition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia, the world’s largest encyclopedia, hosts roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">65 million entries\u003c/a> in \u003ca href=\"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias\">364 languages\u003c/a>. It is considered a backbone of the internet — boasting an average of 508 million views per day for the past decade, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/01/13/wikipedia-at-25-what-the-data-tells-us/#how-many-people-visit-wikipedia\">Pew Research Center\u003c/a>. While Wikipedia is the nonprofit’s largest and most well-known project, the Wikimedia Foundation, which did not respond to requests for comment, supports over a dozen related “sister” projects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092438\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Wikipedia homepage on March 11, 2011. (SD619/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said that this campaign is the workers’ third attempt at unionizing and the farthest they’ve gotten in the process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think there is a lot of fear right now,” Bernick said — highlighting the Trump administration’s attacks on public media, the cost of living crisis and concerns about artificial intelligence as some of the factors driving more staff toward unionization. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As employers make decisions about how and when to integrate AI, Bernick wants to see “workers in the loop.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without our say, these systems are not really effective,” Bernick said. “A lot of the time they can make our work less impactful or more strenuous.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release from the Communications Workers of America — Wiki Workers United’s parent union — also said that “recent events at the Wikimedia Foundation have drastically escalated worker concerns regarding transparency, trust, the organization’s future, and leadership’s commitment to the free knowledge movement.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May, the foundation disbanded the Community Tech team, the bridge between the foundation and the volunteers who update the articles. The decision sparked major backlash, in part, because the team was largely composed of union members, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Workers_United_solidarity\">petition\u003c/a> written by Wikipedia editors with 1,190 signatures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia editors are a group of nearly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">280,000 volunteers\u003c/a> who write and edit the articles. The petition states that the undersigned editors, who have cumulatively made over 17,582,148 edits, according to the page, will strike in support of the union if called. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This demand for recognition comes after the U.K. chapter of Wiki Workers United made a similar request of the foundation last month, according to the press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union hopes to be a sign that it’s OK for tech workers to ask for protections, Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You don’t have to accept the status quo,” Bernick said. “We see having a union as sort of a basic right.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "unacceptable-san-francisco-officials-question-kaisers-approach-to-ai-in-mental-health",
"title": "‘Unacceptable’: San Francisco Officials Question Kaiser’s Approach to AI in Mental Health",
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"content": "\u003cp>Unlicensed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073839/kaiser-therapists-take-key-step-toward-1-day-strike\">phone operators and algorithms\u003c/a> directing patients to inadequate telehealth services. Controversial \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">artificial intelligence technologies\u003c/a> are increasingly deployed at clinics. Distraught patients who can’t get an appointment with a human for weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those were some of the alarms raised by Kaiser Permanente clinicians who told the San Francisco Board of Supervisors the healthcare giant has failed to significantly improve its mental-health services, even after recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073484/kaiser-workers-say-patients-deserve-better-mental-health-care-after-31m-settlement\">sanctions by state and federal regulators\u003c/a> for denying or delaying care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The hearing Tuesday examined Kaiser’s \u003ca href=\"https://nuhw.org/wp-content/uploads/Kaiser_IBHS_fact_sheet_SFBOS_hearing_20260701.pdf\">contract \u003c/a>proposals during labor negotiations, which the union said would allow the employer to expand its use of AI tools in mental-health care and lay off more therapists who currently provide it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Experts said these changes could degrade care by giving the company a free pass to outsource patients to companies that use chatbots and squeeze overworked professionals — claims Kaiser denies. The clinicians pleaded with supervisors to pressure their employer to strengthen patient care and support its staff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The things that we discussed today are infuriating, concerning and unacceptable,” said Supervisor Chyanne Chen, who called the hearing after multiple constituents, including Kaiser employees, complained about the healthcare company’s approach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chen said she’ll introduce a resolution next week calling on the state’s largest health plan to agree to contract language stating it will use AI to help therapists — not replace them — and back off a proposal that would allow it to refer more patients to third-party contractors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser executives declined to attend the hearing, a move several supervisors decried as disappointing or even “disrespectful.” The city of San Francisco, San Francisco Unified School District and other public employers paid Kaiser $508 million in health premiums last year to cover more than 39,000 employees and retirees, according to the San Francisco Health Service System. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12076763\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Kaiser Permanente building at 1800 Harrison (center-top) in Oakland on March 16, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Their nonpresence suggests to me that the picture that’s being painted by the workers is pretty accurate,” Supervisor Rafael Mandelman said. “We do not want to be subjecting our employees and our retirees to a situation where they can’t actually get the care that they need.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it does not use AI to diagnose patients or make clinical decisions, and that it remains focused on providing timely, high-quality mental-health care while reaching a fair agreement with the therapists’ union. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since 2023, Kaiser has agreed to pay more than $231 million in settlements after investigations into the company’s behavioral treatment access by the U.S. Department of Labor and the California Department of Managed Health Care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit health organization said it has invested more than $2 billion since 2020 to expand its mental-health facilities and provider networks, and now consistently meets California law requiring health plans to provide timely access to care. Kaiser, headquartered in Oakland, made a net income of $9.3 billion last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the yearlong contract talks, Kaiser has resisted language stating that the company won’t use AI to replace therapists and proposed making it easier to lay them off, according to the National Union of Healthcare Workers, which represents 2,400 psychologists, licensed clinical social workers and other behavioral health professionals at Kaiser in Northern California. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which staged a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076753/northern-california-kaiser-therapists-hold-1-day-strike-over-ai-patient-care-concerns\">one-day strike\u003c/a> earlier this year and a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11929713/kaiser-mental-health-workers-appove-new-contract-ending-10-week-strike\">10-week strike\u003c/a> in 2022, said the parties are set to start mediation next month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Monday, the union filed its latest complaint with the California Department of Managed Health Care alleging that a Kaiser triage system that initially screens patients seeking mental-health care violates California law because it relies on automated algorithms and unlicensed clerical staff — instead of licensed clinicians — to recommend care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s violating patient care standards and putting patients at risk. Artificial intelligence and algorithms don’t capture what trained humans can,” Ilana Marcucci-Morris, a licensed clinical social worker and therapist at Kaiser in Oakland, told supervisors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marcucci-Morris said she has seen AI making patient care errors at work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This isn’t about genuine innovation. It’s about saving a buck at the expense of patient care and public health. If we don’t stop them now, we won’t stand a chance down the road,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser argued that clerical staff who make appointments for patients are trained to escalate an emergency to clinical staff, and its behavioral health e-visit tool helps connect members to care more quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is an additional path to getting care — not the only path,” the company’s statement said. “On every screen throughout the e-visit process, the patient is provided a phone number that they can call at any time to talk to a live person.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Chen said she’ll introduce a resolution next week calling on the state’s largest health plan to agree to contract language stating it will use AI to help therapists — not replace them — and back off a proposal that would allow it to refer more patients to third-party contractors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Chen said she’ll introduce a resolution next week calling on the state’s largest health plan to agree to contract language stating it will use AI to help therapists — not replace them — and back off a proposal that would allow it to refer more patients to third-party contractors. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kaiser executives declined to attend the hearing, a move several supervisors decried as disappointing or even “disrespectful.” The city of San Francisco, San Francisco Unified School District and other public employers paid Kaiser $508 million in health premiums last year to cover more than 39,000 employees and retirees, according to the San Francisco Health Service System. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12076763\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Kaiser Permanente building at 1800 Harrison (center-top) in Oakland on March 16, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Their nonpresence suggests to me that the picture that’s being painted by the workers is pretty accurate,” Supervisor Rafael Mandelman said. “We do not want to be subjecting our employees and our retirees to a situation where they can’t actually get the care that they need.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it does not use AI to diagnose patients or make clinical decisions, and that it remains focused on providing timely, high-quality mental-health care while reaching a fair agreement with the therapists’ union. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it does not use AI to diagnose patients or make clinical decisions, and that it remains focused on providing timely, high-quality mental-health care while reaching a fair agreement with the therapists’ union. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since 2023, Kaiser has agreed to pay more than $231 million in settlements after investigations into the company’s behavioral treatment access by the U.S. Department of Labor and the California Department of Managed Health Care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The nonprofit health organization said it has invested more than $2 billion since 2020 to expand its mental-health facilities and provider networks, and now consistently meets California law requiring health plans to provide timely access to care. Kaiser, headquartered in Oakland, made a net income of $9.3 billion last year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During the yearlong contract talks, Kaiser has resisted language stating that the company won’t use AI to replace therapists and proposed making it easier to lay them off, according to the National Union of Healthcare Workers, which represents 2,400 psychologists, licensed clinical social workers and other behavioral health professionals at Kaiser in Northern California. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The union, which staged a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076753/northern-california-kaiser-therapists-hold-1-day-strike-over-ai-patient-care-concerns\">one-day strike\u003c/a> earlier this year and a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11929713/kaiser-mental-health-workers-appove-new-contract-ending-10-week-strike\">10-week strike\u003c/a> in 2022, said the parties are set to start mediation next month.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On Monday, the union filed its latest complaint with the California Department of Managed Health Care alleging that a Kaiser triage system that initially screens patients seeking mental-health care violates California law because it relies on automated algorithms and unlicensed clerical staff — instead of licensed clinicians — to recommend care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s violating patient care standards and putting patients at risk. Artificial intelligence and algorithms don’t capture what trained humans can,” Ilana Marcucci-Morris, a licensed clinical social worker and therapist at Kaiser in Oakland, told supervisors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Marcucci-Morris said she has seen AI making patient care errors at work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This isn’t about genuine innovation. It’s about saving a buck at the expense of patient care and public health. If we don’t stop them now, we won’t stand a chance down the road,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kaiser argued that clerical staff who make appointments for patients are trained to escalate an emergency to clinical staff, and its behavioral health e-visit tool helps connect members to care more quickly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It is an additional path to getting care — not the only path,” the company’s statement said. “On every screen throughout the e-visit process, the patient is provided a phone number that they can call at any time to talk to a live person.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "In a hearing, therapists decried Kaiser’s proposed contract terms during labor negotiations, which they argued would undermine mental health services. The largest health insurer for city employees said it remains focused on providing timely, high-quality mental health services.",
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"title": "‘Unacceptable’: San Francisco Officials Question Kaiser’s Approach to AI in Mental Health | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Unlicensed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073839/kaiser-therapists-take-key-step-toward-1-day-strike\">phone operators and algorithms\u003c/a> directing patients to inadequate telehealth services. Controversial \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">artificial intelligence technologies\u003c/a> are increasingly deployed at clinics. Distraught patients who can’t get an appointment with a human for weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those were some of the alarms raised by Kaiser Permanente clinicians who told the San Francisco Board of Supervisors the healthcare giant has failed to significantly improve its mental-health services, even after recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073484/kaiser-workers-say-patients-deserve-better-mental-health-care-after-31m-settlement\">sanctions by state and federal regulators\u003c/a> for denying or delaying care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The hearing Tuesday examined Kaiser’s \u003ca href=\"https://nuhw.org/wp-content/uploads/Kaiser_IBHS_fact_sheet_SFBOS_hearing_20260701.pdf\">contract \u003c/a>proposals during labor negotiations, which the union said would allow the employer to expand its use of AI tools in mental-health care and lay off more therapists who currently provide it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Experts said these changes could degrade care by giving the company a free pass to outsource patients to companies that use chatbots and squeeze overworked professionals — claims Kaiser denies. The clinicians pleaded with supervisors to pressure their employer to strengthen patient care and support its staff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The things that we discussed today are infuriating, concerning and unacceptable,” said Supervisor Chyanne Chen, who called the hearing after multiple constituents, including Kaiser employees, complained about the healthcare company’s approach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chen said she’ll introduce a resolution next week calling on the state’s largest health plan to agree to contract language stating it will use AI to help therapists — not replace them — and back off a proposal that would allow it to refer more patients to third-party contractors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser executives declined to attend the hearing, a move several supervisors decried as disappointing or even “disrespectful.” The city of San Francisco, San Francisco Unified School District and other public employers paid Kaiser $508 million in health premiums last year to cover more than 39,000 employees and retirees, according to the San Francisco Health Service System. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12076763\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-KAISER-RETREATS-MD-09-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Kaiser Permanente building at 1800 Harrison (center-top) in Oakland on March 16, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Their nonpresence suggests to me that the picture that’s being painted by the workers is pretty accurate,” Supervisor Rafael Mandelman said. “We do not want to be subjecting our employees and our retirees to a situation where they can’t actually get the care that they need.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it does not use AI to diagnose patients or make clinical decisions, and that it remains focused on providing timely, high-quality mental-health care while reaching a fair agreement with the therapists’ union. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since 2023, Kaiser has agreed to pay more than $231 million in settlements after investigations into the company’s behavioral treatment access by the U.S. Department of Labor and the California Department of Managed Health Care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit health organization said it has invested more than $2 billion since 2020 to expand its mental-health facilities and provider networks, and now consistently meets California law requiring health plans to provide timely access to care. Kaiser, headquartered in Oakland, made a net income of $9.3 billion last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the yearlong contract talks, Kaiser has resisted language stating that the company won’t use AI to replace therapists and proposed making it easier to lay them off, according to the National Union of Healthcare Workers, which represents 2,400 psychologists, licensed clinical social workers and other behavioral health professionals at Kaiser in Northern California. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which staged a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076753/northern-california-kaiser-therapists-hold-1-day-strike-over-ai-patient-care-concerns\">one-day strike\u003c/a> earlier this year and a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11929713/kaiser-mental-health-workers-appove-new-contract-ending-10-week-strike\">10-week strike\u003c/a> in 2022, said the parties are set to start mediation next month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Monday, the union filed its latest complaint with the California Department of Managed Health Care alleging that a Kaiser triage system that initially screens patients seeking mental-health care violates California law because it relies on automated algorithms and unlicensed clerical staff — instead of licensed clinicians — to recommend care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s violating patient care standards and putting patients at risk. Artificial intelligence and algorithms don’t capture what trained humans can,” Ilana Marcucci-Morris, a licensed clinical social worker and therapist at Kaiser in Oakland, told supervisors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marcucci-Morris said she has seen AI making patient care errors at work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This isn’t about genuine innovation. It’s about saving a buck at the expense of patient care and public health. If we don’t stop them now, we won’t stand a chance down the road,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser argued that clerical staff who make appointments for patients are trained to escalate an emergency to clinical staff, and its behavioral health e-visit tool helps connect members to care more quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is an additional path to getting care — not the only path,” the company’s statement said. “On every screen throughout the e-visit process, the patient is provided a phone number that they can call at any time to talk to a live person.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "arrests-injuries-at-ch-sugar-protest-as-strike-at-crockett-refinery-enters-sixth-week",
"title": "Arrests, Injuries at C&H Sugar Protest as Strike at Crockett Refinery Enters Sixth Week",
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"headTitle": "Arrests, Injuries at C&H Sugar Protest as Strike at Crockett Refinery Enters Sixth Week | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Contra Costa County Sheriff’s deputies arrested nine people after a protest outside the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090638/ch-sugar-striking-workers-to-meet-for-first-time-in-month-long-strike\">C&H Sugar refinery in Crockett\u003c/a> on Tuesday, where warehouse and dockworkers have been striking for six weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sheriff’s office spokesperson Jimmy Lee said the gathering was declared an unlawful assembly after “repeated efforts to gain compliance” and multiple attempts to disperse a crowd protesting outside the facility. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Warehouse workers represented by International Longshore and Warehouse Union Local 6 walked off the job last month amid stalled contract negotiations. C&H dockworkers, represented by ILWU Local 10, have refused to cross picket lines in solidarity throughout the strike.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sheriff’s officials said they responded to the refinery on Loring Avenue on Tuesday morning after receiving multiple reports of rocks being thrown at trucks attempting to enter the facility, and protesters blocking the roadway, preventing workers’ movement in and out. ILWU Local 10 officials denied that members threw rocks at vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Crockett refinery usually processes six million pounds of raw cane sugar per day, but operations have been disrupted since the 90 warehouse employees went on strike June 15 amid bargaining over wages, sick time and retirement benefits. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/803A0691-scaled-e1784753898575.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092193\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Kendra Sparks is a lifelong Crockett resident and 30-year employee of C&H Sugar. Her father, Greg Soria, retired from C&H after 40 years and would lose healthcare benefits he earned with the company under terms proposed by C&H, she said. (Courtesy of Roy San Fillipo, ILWU)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>ILWU Local 6 negotiators previously told KQED that C&H has offered their members a 20% raise over five years, while halving sick days and getting rid of benefits for retired employees. Union members said at the time that the salary increase wasn’t worth the trade-off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Retirees cannot afford not to have benefits at all; we cannot afford as a worker to pay another 30% for our health care; we can’t afford to take a cut in our sick leave,” said Michael Villeggiante, the president of ILWU Local 10, which is not in negotiations, but striking in solidarity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for C&H told KQED that while the company “has worked tirelessly to resolve the labor dispute and responsibly operate our business, the ILWU has opted instead to engage in unlawful and dangerous activity that has threatened the health and safety of our employees, independent drivers, contractors, Crockett residents and law enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have respected the union’s right to strike, but we do not accept this dangerous and illegal behavior,” the spokesperson said via email. “We are grateful to the Contra Costa Sheriff’s Office and California Highway Patrol who responded yesterday.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because dockworkers have refused to cross the picket line, C&H began diverting some operations to the Levin Richmond Terminal, where goods like coal and oil are unloaded, in recent weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But days ago, the company redirected a ship, known as the Tai Herald, from Richmond to Crockett, where it sat docked until Monday. Then, C&H hired nonunionized workers to unload it, Villeggiante said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In response, ILWU Local 10 workers left their jobs at other Northern California ports, including Oakland, Eureka, Sacramento and Benicia, to join the picket at Crockett at 10 a.m. Tuesday morning. Villeggiante said at least 400 people joined for a “peaceful rally” featuring music and entertainment as picketers marched back and forth across every entrance at the property.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s our jurisdiction,” he said. “Going all the way back to 1934, we were awarded to unload and load these ships. And we have a practice of doing those ships at C&H Sugar since 1938.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the county sheriff’s office, personnel arrived around 11 a.m., and stayed on scene for five hours trying to maintain order and facilitate traffic movement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Villeggiante said that the crowd dwindled to about 150 throughout the day as more police presence appeared. The tense confrontation occurred in the afternoon, after sheriff’s officials said they broadcast multiple announcements to the crowd to disperse and asked the picketers to clear a driveway to let workers out of the facility. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Villeggiante said he instructed ILWU members to move, but some protesters remained in front of the driveway. The nine arrested were booked at the Martinez Detention Facility after Villeggiante said law enforcement “manhandled” multiple union members. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The majority were cited and released, while three remained in custody overnight. The individuals were arrested on various charges, including remaining present at an unlawful assembly after being lawfully ordered to disperse, battery, obstruction and resisting a police officer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Four ILWU Local 10 members were arrested, including the three who stayed in custody overnight and were bailed out this morning. He said the fourth member spent the night in the hospital after he was thrown into glass and cut his face during an altercation with officers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Villeggiante said the others arrested were “spectators or community people or students.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said that he believes ILWU Local 6 and C&H were back at the bargaining table, but that ILWU Local 10 would continue to strike alongside warehouse workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The last two mediations that they went back to, there wasn’t much given; it was all takeaways,” he said. “There’s no bargaining in good faith when you are concessionary bargaining.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/jlara\">\u003cem>Juan Carlos Lara\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Warehouse workers represented by International Longshore and Warehouse Union Local 6 walked off the job last month amid stalled contract negotiations. C&H dockworkers, represented by ILWU Local 10, have refused to cross picket lines in solidarity throughout the strike.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sheriff’s officials said they responded to the refinery on Loring Avenue on Tuesday morning after receiving multiple reports of rocks being thrown at trucks attempting to enter the facility, and protesters blocking the roadway, preventing workers’ movement in and out. ILWU Local 10 officials denied that members threw rocks at vehicles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Crockett refinery usually processes six million pounds of raw cane sugar per day, but operations have been disrupted since the 90 warehouse employees went on strike June 15 amid bargaining over wages, sick time and retirement benefits. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>ILWU Local 6 negotiators previously told KQED that C&H has offered their members a 20% raise over five years, while halving sick days and getting rid of benefits for retired employees. Union members said at the time that the salary increase wasn’t worth the trade-off.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Retirees cannot afford not to have benefits at all; we cannot afford as a worker to pay another 30% for our health care; we can’t afford to take a cut in our sick leave,” said Michael Villeggiante, the president of ILWU Local 10, which is not in negotiations, but striking in solidarity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But days ago, the company redirected a ship, known as the Tai Herald, from Richmond to Crockett, where it sat docked until Monday. Then, C&H hired nonunionized workers to unload it, Villeggiante said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In response, ILWU Local 10 workers left their jobs at other Northern California ports, including Oakland, Eureka, Sacramento and Benicia, to join the picket at Crockett at 10 a.m. Tuesday morning. Villeggiante said at least 400 people joined for a “peaceful rally” featuring music and entertainment as picketers marched back and forth across every entrance at the property.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That’s our jurisdiction,” he said. “Going all the way back to 1934, we were awarded to unload and load these ships. And we have a practice of doing those ships at C&H Sugar since 1938.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The majority were cited and released, while three remained in custody overnight. The individuals were arrested on various charges, including remaining present at an unlawful assembly after being lawfully ordered to disperse, battery, obstruction and resisting a police officer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Contra Costa County Sheriff’s deputies declared an unlawful assembly and arrested nine protesters on Tuesday. Representatives from ILWU Local 6 and C&H have since returned to the bargaining table. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Contra Costa County Sheriff’s deputies arrested nine people after a protest outside the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090638/ch-sugar-striking-workers-to-meet-for-first-time-in-month-long-strike\">C&H Sugar refinery in Crockett\u003c/a> on Tuesday, where warehouse and dockworkers have been striking for six weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sheriff’s office spokesperson Jimmy Lee said the gathering was declared an unlawful assembly after “repeated efforts to gain compliance” and multiple attempts to disperse a crowd protesting outside the facility. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Warehouse workers represented by International Longshore and Warehouse Union Local 6 walked off the job last month amid stalled contract negotiations. C&H dockworkers, represented by ILWU Local 10, have refused to cross picket lines in solidarity throughout the strike.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sheriff’s officials said they responded to the refinery on Loring Avenue on Tuesday morning after receiving multiple reports of rocks being thrown at trucks attempting to enter the facility, and protesters blocking the roadway, preventing workers’ movement in and out. ILWU Local 10 officials denied that members threw rocks at vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Crockett refinery usually processes six million pounds of raw cane sugar per day, but operations have been disrupted since the 90 warehouse employees went on strike June 15 amid bargaining over wages, sick time and retirement benefits. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/803A0691-scaled-e1784753898575.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092193\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Kendra Sparks is a lifelong Crockett resident and 30-year employee of C&H Sugar. Her father, Greg Soria, retired from C&H after 40 years and would lose healthcare benefits he earned with the company under terms proposed by C&H, she said. (Courtesy of Roy San Fillipo, ILWU)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>ILWU Local 6 negotiators previously told KQED that C&H has offered their members a 20% raise over five years, while halving sick days and getting rid of benefits for retired employees. Union members said at the time that the salary increase wasn’t worth the trade-off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Retirees cannot afford not to have benefits at all; we cannot afford as a worker to pay another 30% for our health care; we can’t afford to take a cut in our sick leave,” said Michael Villeggiante, the president of ILWU Local 10, which is not in negotiations, but striking in solidarity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for C&H told KQED that while the company “has worked tirelessly to resolve the labor dispute and responsibly operate our business, the ILWU has opted instead to engage in unlawful and dangerous activity that has threatened the health and safety of our employees, independent drivers, contractors, Crockett residents and law enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have respected the union’s right to strike, but we do not accept this dangerous and illegal behavior,” the spokesperson said via email. “We are grateful to the Contra Costa Sheriff’s Office and California Highway Patrol who responded yesterday.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because dockworkers have refused to cross the picket line, C&H began diverting some operations to the Levin Richmond Terminal, where goods like coal and oil are unloaded, in recent weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But days ago, the company redirected a ship, known as the Tai Herald, from Richmond to Crockett, where it sat docked until Monday. Then, C&H hired nonunionized workers to unload it, Villeggiante said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In response, ILWU Local 10 workers left their jobs at other Northern California ports, including Oakland, Eureka, Sacramento and Benicia, to join the picket at Crockett at 10 a.m. Tuesday morning. Villeggiante said at least 400 people joined for a “peaceful rally” featuring music and entertainment as picketers marched back and forth across every entrance at the property.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s our jurisdiction,” he said. “Going all the way back to 1934, we were awarded to unload and load these ships. And we have a practice of doing those ships at C&H Sugar since 1938.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the county sheriff’s office, personnel arrived around 11 a.m., and stayed on scene for five hours trying to maintain order and facilitate traffic movement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Villeggiante said that the crowd dwindled to about 150 throughout the day as more police presence appeared. The tense confrontation occurred in the afternoon, after sheriff’s officials said they broadcast multiple announcements to the crowd to disperse and asked the picketers to clear a driveway to let workers out of the facility. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Villeggiante said he instructed ILWU members to move, but some protesters remained in front of the driveway. The nine arrested were booked at the Martinez Detention Facility after Villeggiante said law enforcement “manhandled” multiple union members. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The majority were cited and released, while three remained in custody overnight. The individuals were arrested on various charges, including remaining present at an unlawful assembly after being lawfully ordered to disperse, battery, obstruction and resisting a police officer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Four ILWU Local 10 members were arrested, including the three who stayed in custody overnight and were bailed out this morning. He said the fourth member spent the night in the hospital after he was thrown into glass and cut his face during an altercation with officers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Villeggiante said the others arrested were “spectators or community people or students.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said that he believes ILWU Local 6 and C&H were back at the bargaining table, but that ILWU Local 10 would continue to strike alongside warehouse workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The last two mediations that they went back to, there wasn’t much given; it was all takeaways,” he said. “There’s no bargaining in good faith when you are concessionary bargaining.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/jlara\">\u003cem>Juan Carlos Lara\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "an-oakland-judge-will-soon-rule-on-one-of-the-largest-media-mergers-in-hollywood-history",
"title": "An Oakland Judge Will Soon Rule on 1 of the Largest Media Mergers in Hollywood History",
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"headTitle": "An Oakland Judge Will Soon Rule on 1 of the Largest Media Mergers in Hollywood History | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Film industry workers and antitrust activists gathered outside of a federal court in Oakland on Friday to support a new lawsuit aimed at stopping the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914425/why-california-wants-to-block-the-paramount-warner-bros-merger\">merger between Paramount Skydance\u003c/a> and Warner Bros. Discovery, Inc. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The showdown, presided over by U.S. District Judge Araceli Martínez-Olguín, came after California and 11 other states filed an \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/%E2%80%99s-not-all-folks-attorney-general-bonta-files-emergency-motion-immediately-block\">“emergency motion”\u003c/a> on Monday to temporarily block Paramount’s $110 billion acquisition of Warner Bros. Discovery, Inc., alleging the deal violated the Clayton Antitrust Act. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Martínez-Olguín decided not to rule from the bench, but said she would provide a ruling by July 22.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Justice \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-department-justice-antitrust-division-closing-its-investigation-merger-paramount\">approved\u003c/a> the merger in June, meaning the deal could have gone through as soon as it cleared overseas regulators, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2026/07/15/media/paramount-wbd-merger-lawsuit-tro-bonta\">\u003cem>CNN\u003c/em>\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/biz/global/paramount-warner-bros-merger-overseas-will-eu-uk-approve-1236790282/\">\u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091616\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Protesters calling for immediate action to stop the proposed $110 billion Paramount Skydance and Warner Bros. Discovery merger rally in front of the federal courthouse in Oakland on July 17, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But California Attorney General Rob Bonta said he would “not let Warner Bros. and Paramount merge without a fight” in a \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/%E2%80%99s-not-all-folks-attorney-general-bonta-files-emergency-motion-immediately-block\">statement\u003c/a> on Monday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unlawful merger of Warner Bros. and Paramount would harm movie theaters, basic cable distributors, and ultimately, audiences on every sofa and movie theater seat in the U.S.,” Bonta said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paramount’s lawyers \u003ca href=\"https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.474157/gov.uscourts.cand.474157.114.0.pdf\">called\u003c/a> the challenge weak, arguing that the merger would provide more high-quality content to consumers and create a “more formidable competitor to the largest streaming services,” including Netflix, Amazon and Disney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speakers at the news conference outside the courthouse, organized by a group called #BlockTheMerger, cited concerns that the “transaction would further consolidate an already concentrated media landscape, reducing competition at a moment when our industries — and the audiences we serve — can least afford it,” according to an \u003ca href=\"https://blockthemerger.com/openletter\">open letter\u003c/a> signed by over 5,000 people, including Glenn Close, Pedro Pascal and Tiffany Haddish and other well-known artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>W. Kamau Bell, an Oakland resident, comedian and executive producer and host of the CNN docuseries \u003cem>United Shades of America, \u003c/em>highlighted this point during the event. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The more media consolidation we have, the less choice we have,” Bell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s formal \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/Redacted%20Paramount%20Warner%20complaint%20%20-%20file%20stamped.pdf\">complaint\u003c/a> called this the largest media merger in history and noted that it would combine “two of the country’s five major film distributors” and “two of the five major owners of basic cable channels.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rachel Antell, a documentary film producer and co-founder of the Archival Producers Alliance, drew attention to the risks associated with allowing Paramount to control all of the archival footage for both CNN and CBS. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Television news is often the first draft of history, and documentary storytelling relies on these drafts to synthesize deeper narratives and bring new perspectives to old stories,” Antell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Antell said she worried that the merger could limit access to these materials given that the corporate owner has “sole discretion” in the approval process. She called the merger an “unprecedented concentration of American broadcast history under one single ownership structure.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Protesters also raised concerns about this merger’s impact on content and journalism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without a free and independent and uncensored media, we are all at risk. Our democracy is at risk,” said Annie Leonard, longtime activist and co-founder of the Committee for the First Amendment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091617\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Annie Leonard speaks at a rally calling for immediate action to stop the proposed $110 billion Paramount Skydance and Warner Bros. Discovery merger, in front of the federal courthouse in Oakland on July 17, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is also horrific for all of us who have any stake in truth, any stake in understanding our past, any stake in being able to make sense of our present and any stake in being able to take the reins and reclaim our freedoms,” said Anat Shenker-Osorio, a communications consultant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Writers Guild of America also filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.wga.org/uploadedfiles/news_and_events/public_policy/wga-v-paramount-warner-bros-complaint.pdf\">lawsuit\u003c/a> focused on the harms that the merger would cause to film industry employees, and a group of Paramount subscribers filed a class action suit, which Martínez-Olguín denied on Thursday, according to \u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/film/news/paramount-subscribers-fail-injunction-merger-1236813567/\">\u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This potential acquisition has also been scrutinized due to the relationship between President Donald Trump and Larry Ellison, father of Paramount Skydance CEO David Ellison, leading some critics to speculate whether the relationship influenced the DOJ’s clearance of the merger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Wednesday, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em> journalist Daniel Miller told KQED that since Ellison took over Paramount, there have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076712/san-francisco-cbs-workers-hold-24-hour-walk-out-for-higher-pay-more-respect\">major changes at CBS News\u003c/a>, creating some concerns about what would happen if CNN and CBS were “under the same roof.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/kmonahan\">\u003cem>Katherine Monahan\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Film industry workers and antitrust activists gathered outside of a federal court in Oakland on Friday to support a new lawsuit aimed at stopping the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914425/why-california-wants-to-block-the-paramount-warner-bros-merger\">merger between Paramount Skydance\u003c/a> and Warner Bros. Discovery, Inc. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The showdown, presided over by U.S. District Judge Araceli Martínez-Olguín, came after California and 11 other states filed an \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/%E2%80%99s-not-all-folks-attorney-general-bonta-files-emergency-motion-immediately-block\">“emergency motion”\u003c/a> on Monday to temporarily block Paramount’s $110 billion acquisition of Warner Bros. Discovery, Inc., alleging the deal violated the Clayton Antitrust Act. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The showdown, presided over by U.S. District Judge Araceli Martínez-Olguín, came after California and 11 other states filed an \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/%E2%80%99s-not-all-folks-attorney-general-bonta-files-emergency-motion-immediately-block\">“emergency motion”\u003c/a> on Monday to temporarily block Paramount’s $110 billion acquisition of Warner Bros. Discovery, Inc., alleging the deal violated the Clayton Antitrust Act. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Martínez-Olguín decided not to rule from the bench, but said she would provide a ruling by July 22.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Justice \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-department-justice-antitrust-division-closing-its-investigation-merger-paramount\">approved\u003c/a> the merger in June, meaning the deal could have gone through as soon as it cleared overseas regulators, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2026/07/15/media/paramount-wbd-merger-lawsuit-tro-bonta\">\u003cem>CNN\u003c/em>\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/biz/global/paramount-warner-bros-merger-overseas-will-eu-uk-approve-1236790282/\">\u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Justice \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-department-justice-antitrust-division-closing-its-investigation-merger-paramount\">approved\u003c/a> the merger in June, meaning the deal could have gone through as soon as it cleared overseas regulators, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2026/07/15/media/paramount-wbd-merger-lawsuit-tro-bonta\">\u003cem>CNN\u003c/em>\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/biz/global/paramount-warner-bros-merger-overseas-will-eu-uk-approve-1236790282/\">\u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091616\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Protesters calling for immediate action to stop the proposed $110 billion Paramount Skydance and Warner Bros. Discovery merger rally in front of the federal courthouse in Oakland on July 17, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But California Attorney General Rob Bonta said he would “not let Warner Bros. and Paramount merge without a fight” in a \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/%E2%80%99s-not-all-folks-attorney-general-bonta-files-emergency-motion-immediately-block\">statement\u003c/a> on Monday. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The unlawful merger of Warner Bros. and Paramount would harm movie theaters, basic cable distributors, and ultimately, audiences on every sofa and movie theater seat in the U.S.,” Bonta said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Paramount’s lawyers \u003ca href=\"https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.474157/gov.uscourts.cand.474157.114.0.pdf\">called\u003c/a> the challenge weak, arguing that the merger would provide more high-quality content to consumers and create a “more formidable competitor to the largest streaming services,” including Netflix, Amazon and Disney. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Speakers at the news conference outside the courthouse, organized by a group called #BlockTheMerger, cited concerns that the “transaction would further consolidate an already concentrated media landscape, reducing competition at a moment when our industries — and the audiences we serve — can least afford it,” according to an \u003ca href=\"https://blockthemerger.com/openletter\">open letter\u003c/a> signed by over 5,000 people, including Glenn Close, Pedro Pascal and Tiffany Haddish and other well-known artists.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Speakers at the news conference outside the courthouse, organized by a group called #BlockTheMerger, cited concerns that the “transaction would further consolidate an already concentrated media landscape, reducing competition at a moment when our industries — and the audiences we serve — can least afford it,” according to an \u003ca href=\"https://blockthemerger.com/openletter\">open letter\u003c/a> signed by over 5,000 people, including Glenn Close, Pedro Pascal and Tiffany Haddish and other well-known artists.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>W. Kamau Bell, an Oakland resident, comedian and executive producer and host of the CNN docuseries \u003cem>United Shades of America, \u003c/em>highlighted this point during the event. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The more media consolidation we have, the less choice we have,” Bell said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rachel Antell, a documentary film producer and co-founder of the Archival Producers Alliance, drew attention to the risks associated with allowing Paramount to control all of the archival footage for both CNN and CBS. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Television news is often the first draft of history, and documentary storytelling relies on these drafts to synthesize deeper narratives and bring new perspectives to old stories,” Antell said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Antell said she worried that the merger could limit access to these materials given that the corporate owner has “sole discretion” in the approval process. She called the merger an “unprecedented concentration of American broadcast history under one single ownership structure.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Protesters also raised concerns about this merger’s impact on content and journalism. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Without a free and independent and uncensored media, we are all at risk. Our democracy is at risk,” said Annie Leonard, longtime activist and co-founder of the Committee for the First Amendment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This potential acquisition has also been scrutinized due to the relationship between President Donald Trump and Larry Ellison, father of Paramount Skydance CEO David Ellison, leading some critics to speculate whether the relationship influenced the DOJ’s clearance of the merger. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Film industry workers and antitrust activists gathered outside of a federal court in Oakland on Friday to support a new lawsuit aimed at stopping the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914425/why-california-wants-to-block-the-paramount-warner-bros-merger\">merger between Paramount Skydance\u003c/a> and Warner Bros. Discovery, Inc. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The showdown, presided over by U.S. District Judge Araceli Martínez-Olguín, came after California and 11 other states filed an \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/%E2%80%99s-not-all-folks-attorney-general-bonta-files-emergency-motion-immediately-block\">“emergency motion”\u003c/a> on Monday to temporarily block Paramount’s $110 billion acquisition of Warner Bros. Discovery, Inc., alleging the deal violated the Clayton Antitrust Act. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Martínez-Olguín decided not to rule from the bench, but said she would provide a ruling by July 22.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Justice \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-department-justice-antitrust-division-closing-its-investigation-merger-paramount\">approved\u003c/a> the merger in June, meaning the deal could have gone through as soon as it cleared overseas regulators, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2026/07/15/media/paramount-wbd-merger-lawsuit-tro-bonta\">\u003cem>CNN\u003c/em>\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/biz/global/paramount-warner-bros-merger-overseas-will-eu-uk-approve-1236790282/\">\u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091616\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Protesters calling for immediate action to stop the proposed $110 billion Paramount Skydance and Warner Bros. Discovery merger rally in front of the federal courthouse in Oakland on July 17, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But California Attorney General Rob Bonta said he would “not let Warner Bros. and Paramount merge without a fight” in a \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/%E2%80%99s-not-all-folks-attorney-general-bonta-files-emergency-motion-immediately-block\">statement\u003c/a> on Monday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The unlawful merger of Warner Bros. and Paramount would harm movie theaters, basic cable distributors, and ultimately, audiences on every sofa and movie theater seat in the U.S.,” Bonta said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paramount’s lawyers \u003ca href=\"https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.474157/gov.uscourts.cand.474157.114.0.pdf\">called\u003c/a> the challenge weak, arguing that the merger would provide more high-quality content to consumers and create a “more formidable competitor to the largest streaming services,” including Netflix, Amazon and Disney. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speakers at the news conference outside the courthouse, organized by a group called #BlockTheMerger, cited concerns that the “transaction would further consolidate an already concentrated media landscape, reducing competition at a moment when our industries — and the audiences we serve — can least afford it,” according to an \u003ca href=\"https://blockthemerger.com/openletter\">open letter\u003c/a> signed by over 5,000 people, including Glenn Close, Pedro Pascal and Tiffany Haddish and other well-known artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>W. Kamau Bell, an Oakland resident, comedian and executive producer and host of the CNN docuseries \u003cem>United Shades of America, \u003c/em>highlighted this point during the event. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The more media consolidation we have, the less choice we have,” Bell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s formal \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/Redacted%20Paramount%20Warner%20complaint%20%20-%20file%20stamped.pdf\">complaint\u003c/a> called this the largest media merger in history and noted that it would combine “two of the country’s five major film distributors” and “two of the five major owners of basic cable channels.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rachel Antell, a documentary film producer and co-founder of the Archival Producers Alliance, drew attention to the risks associated with allowing Paramount to control all of the archival footage for both CNN and CBS. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Television news is often the first draft of history, and documentary storytelling relies on these drafts to synthesize deeper narratives and bring new perspectives to old stories,” Antell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Antell said she worried that the merger could limit access to these materials given that the corporate owner has “sole discretion” in the approval process. She called the merger an “unprecedented concentration of American broadcast history under one single ownership structure.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Protesters also raised concerns about this merger’s impact on content and journalism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without a free and independent and uncensored media, we are all at risk. Our democracy is at risk,” said Annie Leonard, longtime activist and co-founder of the Committee for the First Amendment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091617\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-FILMMAKER-RALLY-MD-07-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Annie Leonard speaks at a rally calling for immediate action to stop the proposed $110 billion Paramount Skydance and Warner Bros. Discovery merger, in front of the federal courthouse in Oakland on July 17, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is also horrific for all of us who have any stake in truth, any stake in understanding our past, any stake in being able to make sense of our present and any stake in being able to take the reins and reclaim our freedoms,” said Anat Shenker-Osorio, a communications consultant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Writers Guild of America also filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.wga.org/uploadedfiles/news_and_events/public_policy/wga-v-paramount-warner-bros-complaint.pdf\">lawsuit\u003c/a> focused on the harms that the merger would cause to film industry employees, and a group of Paramount subscribers filed a class action suit, which Martínez-Olguín denied on Thursday, according to \u003ca href=\"https://variety.com/2026/film/news/paramount-subscribers-fail-injunction-merger-1236813567/\">\u003cem>Variety\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This potential acquisition has also been scrutinized due to the relationship between President Donald Trump and Larry Ellison, father of Paramount Skydance CEO David Ellison, leading some critics to speculate whether the relationship influenced the DOJ’s clearance of the merger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Wednesday, \u003cem>Politico\u003c/em> journalist Daniel Miller told KQED that since Ellison took over Paramount, there have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12076712/san-francisco-cbs-workers-hold-24-hour-walk-out-for-higher-pay-more-respect\">major changes at CBS News\u003c/a>, creating some concerns about what would happen if CNN and CBS were “under the same roof.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/kmonahan\">\u003cem>Katherine Monahan\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>As small businesses in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> face skyrocketing rents and ongoing economic troubles stemming from the pandemic, the city is looking to make it easier for owners and workers alike to keep doors open. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan on Friday unveiled a package aimed at supporting small business owners and their workers through two pieces of legislation. The first would enable small businesses to unionize in order to collectively negotiate rent with commercial landlords. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For many small businesses, San Francisco’s astronomically high rent is one of the largest operating expenses. But the city’s rent control policies do not cover commercial properties, making it difficult to stay in business amid the current ballooning real estate market, largely driven by the artificial intelligence boom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Small businesses often face the risk of displacement, especially when their commercial rent goes up,” Chan said during a press conference on Friday in Japantown, which is home to a number of mom-and-pop shops. “We want our small businesses to stay in our corridors, because that really is the backbone of our local economy.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12068072\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pedestrians cross the street in front of a vacant to vibrant pop-up Dandelion Chocolate on Powell Street in San Francisco on Dec. 17, 2025. While retail vacancy in Union Square has improved after several years of store closures, San Francisco Center Mall is still struggling despite millions of dollars raised for Mayor Lurie’s Downtown Development Corporation, free lease programs for small businesses, and other Hail Marys the city is throwing at its primary commercial district. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The proposal would enable small business owners to collectively negotiate rents with their landlords and direct public resources like legal aid to commercial tenants’ unions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In some commercial corridors, small businesses already work together to negotiate rents, but Chan’s proposal would codify that process by requiring property owners to recognize commercial tenants unions where members share the same landlords during lease negotiations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jon Osaki said that the model has shown success in Japantown, where several small businesses collectively bargained rent prices down with property owners during the pandemic when business was extremely slow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was so disheartening in the pandemic that many of our small businesses were threatened with forced evictions, even though they were in a situation where they could not operate,” Osaki said. “Small businesses have been the lifeblood of our community.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Christin Evans, who owns a bookstore and cocktail bar in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, said many small businesses she hears from have had their leases shift to month-to-month as landlords see opportunities to raise the rent during the current economic boom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The majority of small businesses are essentially subject to the whims of building ownership,” said Evans, who co-founded the progressive advocacy group Small Business Forward. “It used to be that most small businesses were negotiating with mom-and-pop landlords. That’s no longer the case.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The second proposal, called the Workers’ Opportunity to Purchase Act, would codify processes for employees to purchase the business they work at if an owner decides to sell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The idea is meant to incentivize business owners to prepare a succession plan and sell to workers who already know the business inside and out. That would include a right of first offer to workers, giving them time to explore forming a cooperative or a purchase offer, as well as a right of first refusal, requiring owners to notify workers before a sale or third-party bid so workers have an opportunity to counter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Benjy Caplan, who works at Green Apple Books, said that would help employees like him who want to take over the business one day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our hope is that when it comes time for them to have a succession plan, it includes us,” said Caplan, who is a union member with UFCW Local 5. “It’s hard and scary these days, and these two pieces of legislation I think are really going to make it feel a lot more hopeful for workers and small business owners.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both pieces of legislation will be introduced to the Board of Supervisors in September.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The majority of small businesses are essentially subject to the whims of building ownership,” said Evans, who co-founded the progressive advocacy group Small Business Forward. “It used to be that most small businesses were negotiating with mom-and-pop landlords. That’s no longer the case.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As small businesses in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> face skyrocketing rents and ongoing economic troubles stemming from the pandemic, the city is looking to make it easier for owners and workers alike to keep doors open. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco Supervisor Connie Chan on Friday unveiled a package aimed at supporting small business owners and their workers through two pieces of legislation. The first would enable small businesses to unionize in order to collectively negotiate rent with commercial landlords. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For many small businesses, San Francisco’s astronomically high rent is one of the largest operating expenses. But the city’s rent control policies do not cover commercial properties, making it difficult to stay in business amid the current ballooning real estate market, largely driven by the artificial intelligence boom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Small businesses often face the risk of displacement, especially when their commercial rent goes up,” Chan said during a press conference on Friday in Japantown, which is home to a number of mom-and-pop shops. “We want our small businesses to stay in our corridors, because that really is the backbone of our local economy.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12068072\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251217-sfstateofdowntown00005seqn_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pedestrians cross the street in front of a vacant to vibrant pop-up Dandelion Chocolate on Powell Street in San Francisco on Dec. 17, 2025. While retail vacancy in Union Square has improved after several years of store closures, San Francisco Center Mall is still struggling despite millions of dollars raised for Mayor Lurie’s Downtown Development Corporation, free lease programs for small businesses, and other Hail Marys the city is throwing at its primary commercial district. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The proposal would enable small business owners to collectively negotiate rents with their landlords and direct public resources like legal aid to commercial tenants’ unions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In some commercial corridors, small businesses already work together to negotiate rents, but Chan’s proposal would codify that process by requiring property owners to recognize commercial tenants unions where members share the same landlords during lease negotiations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jon Osaki said that the model has shown success in Japantown, where several small businesses collectively bargained rent prices down with property owners during the pandemic when business was extremely slow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It was so disheartening in the pandemic that many of our small businesses were threatened with forced evictions, even though they were in a situation where they could not operate,” Osaki said. “Small businesses have been the lifeblood of our community.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Christin Evans, who owns a bookstore and cocktail bar in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, said many small businesses she hears from have had their leases shift to month-to-month as landlords see opportunities to raise the rent during the current economic boom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The majority of small businesses are essentially subject to the whims of building ownership,” said Evans, who co-founded the progressive advocacy group Small Business Forward. “It used to be that most small businesses were negotiating with mom-and-pop landlords. That’s no longer the case.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The second proposal, called the Workers’ Opportunity to Purchase Act, would codify processes for employees to purchase the business they work at if an owner decides to sell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The idea is meant to incentivize business owners to prepare a succession plan and sell to workers who already know the business inside and out. That would include a right of first offer to workers, giving them time to explore forming a cooperative or a purchase offer, as well as a right of first refusal, requiring owners to notify workers before a sale or third-party bid so workers have an opportunity to counter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Benjy Caplan, who works at Green Apple Books, said that would help employees like him who want to take over the business one day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our hope is that when it comes time for them to have a succession plan, it includes us,” said Caplan, who is a union member with UFCW Local 5. “It’s hard and scary these days, and these two pieces of legislation I think are really going to make it feel a lot more hopeful for workers and small business owners.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both pieces of legislation will be introduced to the Board of Supervisors in September.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> workers signed, sealed and delivered a petition to Google and Alphabet Inc. CEO Sundar Pichai on Thursday, asking for more protections against layoffs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of the Alphabet Workers Union descended on the company’s Mountain View campus to deliver the petition, signed by 4,500 employees. While the union leaders said that Pichai did not meet with them, they described a productive conversation with one of his staff members. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Google for comment but did not receive a response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speakers at Thursday’s press conference shared their experiences with layoffs. One speaker told a story about their colleague arriving at “take your child to work day” with a four-year-old in tow only to learn that they no longer had a job. Another talked about how some employees’ layoffs cost them visa sponsorships and threatened their ability to stay in the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091456\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees rally at the Mountain View Google campus on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The protest came at a time of mounting uncertainty for tech industry employees, many of whom are contending with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090173/too-old-for-silicon-valley-think-again-ai-is-changing-the-math\">a labor market that’s being radically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence and a housing market that’s becoming rapidly less affordable as AI companies begin their \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/08/technology/san-francisco-home-sales-openai-anthropic-ipo.html\">IPOs\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2022, companies like Oracle, Meta, LinkedIn and Amazon have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">laid off thousands of employees\u003c/a>, citing the need to shift spending elsewhere to meet AI needs, such as data center construction. In May, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an executive order focused on preparing workers and businesses for job disruptions driven by AI, including policy options such as severance standards and expanded unemployment insurance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Thursday’s press conference, union president and software engineer Parul Koul said that the campaign started in January 2023 when 12,000 Google employees were laid off “overnight.” The movement steadily gained momentum as the waves of mass layoffs continued, Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every time Google management has said it was a difficult decision. It was a response to economic headwinds,” Koul said, referencing the rounds of layoffs. “The reality is, in that same time period, Google’s valuation has gone from over $1 trillion to over $4 trillion.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Recent reporting from \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em> suggests that Google has let go of somewhere between \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/07/06/the-running-list-major-tech-layoffs-in-2026-where-employers-cited-ai/\">1,500 and 3,000\u003c/a> engineers just this year. Google’s March 2026 Securities and Exchange Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652044/000165204426000043/googexhibit991q12026.htm\">filing\u003c/a> indicates that the company has over 190,000 employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These layoffs and cuts are not difficult decisions, but simply profit being put over the people that make this company run,” Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another speaker pointed out that Google “never performed layoffs before 2023,” despite seeing “a decrease in profits during 2008.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Organizers framed the layoffs as a chapter of a longer history of exploitation and labor organizing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Parul Koul, a software engineer, speaks alongside fellow employees during a rally at the Google campus in Mountain View on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The same types of people decades ago told workers that we couldn’t have a 40-hour work week, that long hours and burnout were the cost of doing business. They told us that a weekend was impossible, that health and safety standards were impossible,” Koul said. “Workers before us have proved that all of those things are possible and more, and the only barrier to us achieving them is how organized we are.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Googlers’ petition calls for guaranteed severance, for voluntary exit packages to become an established policy and for the option to take severance as an extended paid leave instead of a lump sum to preserve their healthcare and immigration status. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They also demanded an end to the Googler Reviews and Development performance review system — known as “GRAD” — a bell curve-style grading system for employees, according to Meghan Day, an employee speaking at the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/shotchkiss\">\u003cem>Sarah Hotchkiss\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Members of the Alphabet Workers Union descended on the company’s Mountain View campus to deliver the petition, signed by 4,500 employees. While the union leaders said that Pichai did not meet with them, they described a productive conversation with one of his staff members. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Speakers at Thursday’s press conference shared their experiences with layoffs. One speaker told a story about their colleague arriving at “take your child to work day” with a four-year-old in tow only to learn that they no longer had a job. Another talked about how some employees’ layoffs cost them visa sponsorships and threatened their ability to stay in the U.S. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The protest came at a time of mounting uncertainty for tech industry employees, many of whom are contending with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090173/too-old-for-silicon-valley-think-again-ai-is-changing-the-math\">a labor market that’s being radically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence and a housing market that’s becoming rapidly less affordable as AI companies begin their \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/08/technology/san-francisco-home-sales-openai-anthropic-ipo.html\">IPOs\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Thursday’s press conference, union president and software engineer Parul Koul said that the campaign started in January 2023 when 12,000 Google employees were laid off “overnight.” The movement steadily gained momentum as the waves of mass layoffs continued, Koul said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Every time Google management has said it was a difficult decision. It was a response to economic headwinds,” Koul said, referencing the rounds of layoffs. “The reality is, in that same time period, Google’s valuation has gone from over $1 trillion to over $4 trillion.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“These layoffs and cuts are not difficult decisions, but simply profit being put over the people that make this company run,” Koul said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The same types of people decades ago told workers that we couldn’t have a 40-hour work week, that long hours and burnout were the cost of doing business. They told us that a weekend was impossible, that health and safety standards were impossible,” Koul said. “Workers before us have proved that all of those things are possible and more, and the only barrier to us achieving them is how organized we are.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Googlers’ petition calls for guaranteed severance, for voluntary exit packages to become an established policy and for the option to take severance as an extended paid leave instead of a lump sum to preserve their healthcare and immigration status. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> workers signed, sealed and delivered a petition to Google and Alphabet Inc. CEO Sundar Pichai on Thursday, asking for more protections against layoffs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of the Alphabet Workers Union descended on the company’s Mountain View campus to deliver the petition, signed by 4,500 employees. While the union leaders said that Pichai did not meet with them, they described a productive conversation with one of his staff members. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Google for comment but did not receive a response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speakers at Thursday’s press conference shared their experiences with layoffs. One speaker told a story about their colleague arriving at “take your child to work day” with a four-year-old in tow only to learn that they no longer had a job. Another talked about how some employees’ layoffs cost them visa sponsorships and threatened their ability to stay in the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091456\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees rally at the Mountain View Google campus on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The protest came at a time of mounting uncertainty for tech industry employees, many of whom are contending with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090173/too-old-for-silicon-valley-think-again-ai-is-changing-the-math\">a labor market that’s being radically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence and a housing market that’s becoming rapidly less affordable as AI companies begin their \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/08/technology/san-francisco-home-sales-openai-anthropic-ipo.html\">IPOs\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2022, companies like Oracle, Meta, LinkedIn and Amazon have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">laid off thousands of employees\u003c/a>, citing the need to shift spending elsewhere to meet AI needs, such as data center construction. In May, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an executive order focused on preparing workers and businesses for job disruptions driven by AI, including policy options such as severance standards and expanded unemployment insurance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Thursday’s press conference, union president and software engineer Parul Koul said that the campaign started in January 2023 when 12,000 Google employees were laid off “overnight.” The movement steadily gained momentum as the waves of mass layoffs continued, Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every time Google management has said it was a difficult decision. It was a response to economic headwinds,” Koul said, referencing the rounds of layoffs. “The reality is, in that same time period, Google’s valuation has gone from over $1 trillion to over $4 trillion.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Recent reporting from \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em> suggests that Google has let go of somewhere between \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/07/06/the-running-list-major-tech-layoffs-in-2026-where-employers-cited-ai/\">1,500 and 3,000\u003c/a> engineers just this year. Google’s March 2026 Securities and Exchange Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652044/000165204426000043/googexhibit991q12026.htm\">filing\u003c/a> indicates that the company has over 190,000 employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These layoffs and cuts are not difficult decisions, but simply profit being put over the people that make this company run,” Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another speaker pointed out that Google “never performed layoffs before 2023,” despite seeing “a decrease in profits during 2008.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Organizers framed the layoffs as a chapter of a longer history of exploitation and labor organizing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Parul Koul, a software engineer, speaks alongside fellow employees during a rally at the Google campus in Mountain View on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The same types of people decades ago told workers that we couldn’t have a 40-hour work week, that long hours and burnout were the cost of doing business. They told us that a weekend was impossible, that health and safety standards were impossible,” Koul said. “Workers before us have proved that all of those things are possible and more, and the only barrier to us achieving them is how organized we are.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Googlers’ petition calls for guaranteed severance, for voluntary exit packages to become an established policy and for the option to take severance as an extended paid leave instead of a lump sum to preserve their healthcare and immigration status. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They also demanded an end to the Googler Reviews and Development performance review system — known as “GRAD” — a bell curve-style grading system for employees, according to Meghan Day, an employee speaking at the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/shotchkiss\">\u003cem>Sarah Hotchkiss\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ai-frontiers.org/articles/how-ai-could-benefit-the-workers-it-displaces\">How AI Could Benefit Workers, Even If It Displaces Most Jobs\u003c/a> — Benjamin Jones, \u003cem>AI Frontiers\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip of Neil Armstrong on the moon]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>That’s one small step for man, one giant- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or the towers fell on 9/11?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[News bulletin from September 11, 2001]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Where were you when you first used ChatGPT?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If I didn’t like the first draft that was conjured, I could just tell it to try again from a different perspective now. Write it shorter. Write it longer. Write it for a fifth grader. Write it with sports metaphors. I was stunned. It seemed clear we were entering a new era of science communication where all the world’s knowledge was not only available, but personally customizable on demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanted a given study to be relayed in the style of Mr. Darcy flirting with Elizabeth Bennet, you were now suddenly in luck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[AI-generated summary of Pride and Prejudice in style of research article]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or the towers fell on 9/11?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Where were you when you first used ChatGPT?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ai-frontiers.org/articles/how-ai-could-benefit-the-workers-it-displaces\">How AI Could Benefit Workers, Even If It Displaces Most Jobs\u003c/a> — Benjamin Jones, \u003cem>AI Frontiers\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip of Neil Armstrong on the moon]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>That’s one small step for man, one giant- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or the towers fell on 9/11?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[News bulletin from September 11, 2001]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Where were you when you first used ChatGPT?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If I didn’t like the first draft that was conjured, I could just tell it to try again from a different perspective now. Write it shorter. Write it longer. Write it for a fifth grader. Write it with sports metaphors. I was stunned. It seemed clear we were entering a new era of science communication where all the world’s knowledge was not only available, but personally customizable on demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanted a given study to be relayed in the style of Mr. Darcy flirting with Elizabeth Bennet, you were now suddenly in luck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[AI-generated summary of Pride and Prejudice in style of research article]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "California Peach Growers Hope Next Farm Bill Will Do More for Specialty Crops",
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"content": "\u003cp>It’s a sweltering morning in June off State Route 70 in Marysville as Sarb Johl watches one of his employees use an excavator to push dead peach trees into ginormous, dry piles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He’s picking up the trees that have already been pushed out of the ground so they can be burned,” Johl said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like a lot of farmers in Yuba and Sutter counties, Johl grows peaches — and not the kind that you buy fresh at the store or farmers’ market. These peaches are grown specifically for canning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Johl was forced to rip out over half of his peach acres after one of the last canneries in the state, Del Monte Foods, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/del-monte-files-for-bankruptcy-as-its-canned-fruit-and-vegetable-sales-slide\">filed for bankruptcy\u003c/a> and then closed earlier this year. That left growers like Johl \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article314486736.html\">without a buyer\u003c/a> for their fruit — and facing a dire economic crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When the processor goes out, basically you got no place to go,” Johl said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In April, the United States Department of Agriculture threw farmers a lifeline by creating a \u003ca href=\"https://www.mynspr.org/news/2026-05-05/california-lawmakers-secure-federal-aid-for-yuba-sutter-peach-farmers-affected-by-major-cannery-closure\">$9 million program\u003c/a> to fund the removal of thousands of acres of trees.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12090778\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090778\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A pile of dead peach trees lie in a field next to an active peach orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026.\u003cbr> (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" data-id=\"12090773\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1818-scaled-e1783982597496.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090773\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An excavator destroys a portion of Sarb Johl’s peach orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026. (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, farmers like Johl need to invest in growing another crop, likely a type of nut, and they’re hoping the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12088977/a-lifeline-for-californias-small-farms-just-expired-what-comes-next\">new farm bill\u003c/a> will provide some help to make the transition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it may not be that simple.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So historically, the farm bill has sort of left out specialty crop growers,” said \u003ca href=\"https://jsayre.ucdavis.edu/\">James Sayre\u003c/a>, an agricultural economist at UC Davis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sayre said that specialty crops — like some fruits, vegetables and nuts — have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to the massive piece of agriculture legislation. He said that’s partially because a lot of the bill is dedicated to what are called \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12047\">Title I crops\u003c/a> — think big commodities like corn, wheat and soybeans. Title I crops are federally subsidized with insurance programs and direct payments to farmers when prices fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The upshot is that if you are a specialty crop grower, you basically didn’t have access to many of these programs,” Sayre said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1827-scaled-e1783983231785.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090774\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sarb Johl holds a pair of unripe peaches at his orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026. (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Title I crops are grown across many Midwestern states, while specialty crops are concentrated in California. Sayre said that means lawmakers from big commodity-growing regions have more votes in Congress and therefore more political power.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One silver lining is that California Sen. Adam Schiff has a seat on the Senate’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.agriculture.senate.gov/\">Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee\u003c/a>. It’s the first time in 30 years that a lawmaker from the Golden State is at the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schiff said one of his main priorities is to \u003ca href=\"https://www.schiff.senate.gov/news/press-releases/news-sen-schiff-pushes-to-level-playing-field-for-californias-farmers-in-senate-farm-bill-with-six-new-agriculture-bills/\">get more resources\u003c/a> for specialty crop farmers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s no reason to treat these farmers differently than we treat farmers in other parts of the country that grow different crops,” Schiff said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The senator said that specialty crop farmers face the same natural disasters and market pressures as commodity farmers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090781\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sarb Johl reaches for an unripe peach at his orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026. \u003cbr> (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But getting a new farm bill across the finish line has gotten more difficult since H.R. 1, the president’s federal budget package, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/millions-lose-snap-benefits-as-one-big-beautiful-bills-stricter-requirements-kick-in\">significantly cut\u003c/a> the food assistance program known as SNAP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schiff said Democrats want to see those cuts reversed in the next farm bill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think there’s some bipartisan interest in doing that,” Schiff said. “If Republicans are willing to meet us, then I think we have a farm bill.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But farmers like Johl can’t wait around for politicians to duke it out in the halls of the Capitol. Back at the farm, he said giving up peaches entirely would be like giving up a part of his family heritage. Johl’s dad immigrated from Punjab, India, in the 1960s, landing in Yuba City and working on a peach farm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually, he bought his own ranch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He had a love for peaches,” Johl said. “That got passed on to the next generation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Johl hopes the new farm bill will include more support for specialty crop farmers, so maybe his kids can grow peaches, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live by, ‘Hey, tomorrow’s gonna be a better day,’” Johl said. “‘Next year is gonna be a better season.”’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Johl said that maybe, in another season, he’ll get the chance to plant some more peach trees.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was edited with support from the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">\u003cem>California Newsroom\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a collaboration of public media outlets throughout the state.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, farmers like Johl need to invest in growing another crop, likely a type of nut, and they’re hoping the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12088977/a-lifeline-for-californias-small-farms-just-expired-what-comes-next\">new farm bill\u003c/a> will provide some help to make the transition. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it may not be that simple.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“So historically, the farm bill has sort of left out specialty crop growers,” said \u003ca href=\"https://jsayre.ucdavis.edu/\">James Sayre\u003c/a>, an agricultural economist at UC Davis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sayre said that specialty crops — like some fruits, vegetables and nuts — have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to the massive piece of agriculture legislation. He said that’s partially because a lot of the bill is dedicated to what are called \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12047\">Title I crops\u003c/a> — think big commodities like corn, wheat and soybeans. Title I crops are federally subsidized with insurance programs and direct payments to farmers when prices fall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sayre said that specialty crops — like some fruits, vegetables and nuts — have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to the massive piece of agriculture legislation. He said that’s partially because a lot of the bill is dedicated to what are called \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12047\">Title I crops\u003c/a> — think big commodities like corn, wheat and soybeans. Title I crops are federally subsidized with insurance programs and direct payments to farmers when prices fall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The upshot is that if you are a specialty crop grower, you basically didn’t have access to many of these programs,” Sayre said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1827-scaled-e1783983231785.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090774\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sarb Johl holds a pair of unripe peaches at his orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Title I crops are grown across many Midwestern states, while specialty crops are concentrated in California. Sayre said that means lawmakers from big commodity-growing regions have more votes in Congress and therefore more political power.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One silver lining is that California Sen. Adam Schiff has a seat on the Senate’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.agriculture.senate.gov/\">Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee\u003c/a>. It’s the first time in 30 years that a lawmaker from the Golden State is at the table.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Schiff said one of his main priorities is to \u003ca href=\"https://www.schiff.senate.gov/news/press-releases/news-sen-schiff-pushes-to-level-playing-field-for-californias-farmers-in-senate-farm-bill-with-six-new-agriculture-bills/\">get more resources\u003c/a> for specialty crop farmers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There’s no reason to treat these farmers differently than we treat farmers in other parts of the country that grow different crops,” Schiff said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The senator said that specialty crop farmers face the same natural disasters and market pressures as commodity farmers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But getting a new farm bill across the finish line has gotten more difficult since H.R. 1, the president’s federal budget package, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/millions-lose-snap-benefits-as-one-big-beautiful-bills-stricter-requirements-kick-in\">significantly cut\u003c/a> the food assistance program known as SNAP. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Schiff said Democrats want to see those cuts reversed in the next farm bill.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think there’s some bipartisan interest in doing that,” Schiff said. “If Republicans are willing to meet us, then I think we have a farm bill.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But farmers like Johl can’t wait around for politicians to duke it out in the halls of the Capitol. Back at the farm, he said giving up peaches entirely would be like giving up a part of his family heritage. Johl’s dad immigrated from Punjab, India, in the 1960s, landing in Yuba City and working on a peach farm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But farmers like Johl can’t wait around for politicians to duke it out in the halls of the Capitol. Back at the farm, he said giving up peaches entirely would be like giving up a part of his family heritage. Johl’s dad immigrated from Punjab, India, in the 1960s, landing in Yuba City and working on a peach farm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Eventually, he bought his own ranch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“He had a love for peaches,” Johl said. “That got passed on to the next generation.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Johl hopes the new farm bill will include more support for specialty crop farmers, so maybe his kids can grow peaches, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We live by, ‘Hey, tomorrow’s gonna be a better day,’” Johl said. “‘Next year is gonna be a better season.”’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We live by, ‘Hey, tomorrow’s gonna be a better day,’” Johl said. “‘Next year is gonna be a better season.”’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Johl said that maybe, in another season, he’ll get the chance to plant some more peach trees.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was edited with support from the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">\u003cem>California Newsroom\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a collaboration of public media outlets throughout the state.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was edited with support from the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">\u003cem>California Newsroom\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a collaboration of public media outlets throughout the state.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Peach farmers in the Central Valley have pulled up their crops and are facing financial hardship. They hope a new farm bill will help keep them going after one of the last canneries in the state closed earlier this year. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>It’s a sweltering morning in June off State Route 70 in Marysville as Sarb Johl watches one of his employees use an excavator to push dead peach trees into ginormous, dry piles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He’s picking up the trees that have already been pushed out of the ground so they can be burned,” Johl said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like a lot of farmers in Yuba and Sutter counties, Johl grows peaches — and not the kind that you buy fresh at the store or farmers’ market. These peaches are grown specifically for canning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Johl was forced to rip out over half of his peach acres after one of the last canneries in the state, Del Monte Foods, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/del-monte-files-for-bankruptcy-as-its-canned-fruit-and-vegetable-sales-slide\">filed for bankruptcy\u003c/a> and then closed earlier this year. That left growers like Johl \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article314486736.html\">without a buyer\u003c/a> for their fruit — and facing a dire economic crisis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When the processor goes out, basically you got no place to go,” Johl said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In April, the United States Department of Agriculture threw farmers a lifeline by creating a \u003ca href=\"https://www.mynspr.org/news/2026-05-05/california-lawmakers-secure-federal-aid-for-yuba-sutter-peach-farmers-affected-by-major-cannery-closure\">$9 million program\u003c/a> to fund the removal of thousands of acres of trees.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12090778\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090778\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1858-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A pile of dead peach trees lie in a field next to an active peach orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026.\u003cbr> (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" data-id=\"12090773\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1818-scaled-e1783982597496.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090773\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An excavator destroys a portion of Sarb Johl’s peach orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026. (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, farmers like Johl need to invest in growing another crop, likely a type of nut, and they’re hoping the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12088977/a-lifeline-for-californias-small-farms-just-expired-what-comes-next\">new farm bill\u003c/a> will provide some help to make the transition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it may not be that simple.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So historically, the farm bill has sort of left out specialty crop growers,” said \u003ca href=\"https://jsayre.ucdavis.edu/\">James Sayre\u003c/a>, an agricultural economist at UC Davis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sayre said that specialty crops — like some fruits, vegetables and nuts — have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to the massive piece of agriculture legislation. He said that’s partially because a lot of the bill is dedicated to what are called \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12047\">Title I crops\u003c/a> — think big commodities like corn, wheat and soybeans. Title I crops are federally subsidized with insurance programs and direct payments to farmers when prices fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The upshot is that if you are a specialty crop grower, you basically didn’t have access to many of these programs,” Sayre said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1827-scaled-e1783983231785.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090774\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sarb Johl holds a pair of unripe peaches at his orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026. (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Title I crops are grown across many Midwestern states, while specialty crops are concentrated in California. Sayre said that means lawmakers from big commodity-growing regions have more votes in Congress and therefore more political power.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One silver lining is that California Sen. Adam Schiff has a seat on the Senate’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.agriculture.senate.gov/\">Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee\u003c/a>. It’s the first time in 30 years that a lawmaker from the Golden State is at the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schiff said one of his main priorities is to \u003ca href=\"https://www.schiff.senate.gov/news/press-releases/news-sen-schiff-pushes-to-level-playing-field-for-californias-farmers-in-senate-farm-bill-with-six-new-agriculture-bills/\">get more resources\u003c/a> for specialty crop farmers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s no reason to treat these farmers differently than we treat farmers in other parts of the country that grow different crops,” Schiff said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The senator said that specialty crop farmers face the same natural disasters and market pressures as commodity farmers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090781\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_1852-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Sarb Johl reaches for an unripe peach at his orchard in Marysville, California, on June 12, 2026. \u003cbr> (Claudia Brancart/NSPR)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But getting a new farm bill across the finish line has gotten more difficult since H.R. 1, the president’s federal budget package, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/millions-lose-snap-benefits-as-one-big-beautiful-bills-stricter-requirements-kick-in\">significantly cut\u003c/a> the food assistance program known as SNAP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schiff said Democrats want to see those cuts reversed in the next farm bill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think there’s some bipartisan interest in doing that,” Schiff said. “If Republicans are willing to meet us, then I think we have a farm bill.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But farmers like Johl can’t wait around for politicians to duke it out in the halls of the Capitol. Back at the farm, he said giving up peaches entirely would be like giving up a part of his family heritage. Johl’s dad immigrated from Punjab, India, in the 1960s, landing in Yuba City and working on a peach farm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually, he bought his own ranch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He had a love for peaches,” Johl said. “That got passed on to the next generation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Johl hopes the new farm bill will include more support for specialty crop farmers, so maybe his kids can grow peaches, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live by, ‘Hey, tomorrow’s gonna be a better day,’” Johl said. “‘Next year is gonna be a better season.”’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Johl said that maybe, in another season, he’ll get the chance to plant some more peach trees.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was edited with support from the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californianewsroom\">\u003cem>California Newsroom\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a collaboration of public media outlets throughout the state.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061054/bay-area-regulators-settle-with-wastewater-plant-for-734000-over-foul-odor\">C&H Sugar\u003c/a> hope to sit down at the negotiating table with the company this week, after dozens walked out last month over disputes about retirement benefits and overtime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The talks will be the first since the strike began. They come only days after allied workers who typically unload the sugar at the Crockett refinery said some of the operations were outsourced to a terminal in Richmond because they joined the picket line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around 90 International Longshore and Warehouse Union Local 6 warehouse workers at the refinery started an open-ended strike on June 15 following an impasse in negotiations. C&H dockworkers from ILWU Local 10 refused to cross the picket line and joined the strike in solidarity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cesar Garibay, a business agent with ILWU Local 6, said he was hopeful that the company would come with better offers to the negotiating table.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“During negotiations, we offered them some compromise to some of the language they wanted,” Garibay said. “The frustrating part is that everybody on the company side of the table was clueless on how the warehouse operates, so we had to explain to them how it works and how they can accomplish what they want without tearing our contract apart.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Workers say that C&H wants to cut half of their sick days – five of the 10 days – and get rid of benefits for those who’ve retired. That’s as the company offers a 20% cumulative raise over the five-year term, which union members say isn’t worth the trade-off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Workers say the company has engaged in bad faith bargaining in the process. Kendra Sparks, an ILWU Local 6 worker for almost 30 years, said the union met with the company on the day the strike started, but wasn’t able to come to a last-minute deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They just basically slapped down like, ‘This is what we’re proposing and take it or leave it,’ basically,” Sparks said.[aside postID=news_12061054 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/CHSugarCrockettGetty.jpg']Though the move toward more negotiation talks this week is a good sign, she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I know it’s not business as usual for them, so hopefully the pressure of increased attention on the situation will help,” Sparks said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dockworkers are also claiming foul over the company taking some of its operations over to the Levin Richmond Terminal at the beginning of this month, unloading raw sugar in the same area that things like coal and oil are unloaded. C&H workers from ILWU Local 10 who usually unload the sugar are not crossing the picket line, so the company shifted operations to a different terminal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The move raised health concerns among union members and, for Contra Costa County District 1 Supervisor John Gioia, it diminished “the power of the workers” during negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Instead of focusing on alternate ways to deliver the sugar, [the company should] focus on reaching an agreement with the workers so that the sugar ships from the Philippines go to Crockett and not to a coal facility in Richmond,” Gioia said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gioia said that the county health department reached out to state and federal officials about the company unloading at the Richmond terminal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area-air-quality-management-district\">Bay Area Air District\u003c/a> inspected the location on Thursday, and said in a statement that it found no visible emissions from sugar or coal handling operations and documented no violations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087608\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1306\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty-160x104.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty-1536x1003.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A train loaded with coal approaches the Levin-Richmond Terminal in Richmond, California, on July 23, 2015. \u003ccite>(Carlos Avila Gonzalez/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A C&H spokesperson said that it’s “common practice for raw sugar logistics globally to be handled via bulk ships and bulk terminals similar to how it is being handled at the Levin Terminal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Once it has been processed in our refinery, we assure the quality of our finished sugar,” C&H said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even though C&H says that raw sugar is not a food product, well, you could’ve fooled me because it is,” said Michael Villeggiante, president of Local 10. “It’s being mixed with a lot of toxic materials.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Records show the ship carrying the sugar, known as the Tai Herald, was in Richmond for about eight and a half days. The ship moved on to Crockett late Friday night and has been docked ever since, according to vessel traffic records.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/jlara\">\u003cem>Juan Carlos Lara\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Though the move toward more negotiation talks this week is a good sign, she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I know it’s not business as usual for them, so hopefully the pressure of increased attention on the situation will help,” Sparks said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dockworkers are also claiming foul over the company taking some of its operations over to the Levin Richmond Terminal at the beginning of this month, unloading raw sugar in the same area that things like coal and oil are unloaded. C&H workers from ILWU Local 10 who usually unload the sugar are not crossing the picket line, so the company shifted operations to a different terminal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The move raised health concerns among union members and, for Contra Costa County District 1 Supervisor John Gioia, it diminished “the power of the workers” during negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Instead of focusing on alternate ways to deliver the sugar, [the company should] focus on reaching an agreement with the workers so that the sugar ships from the Philippines go to Crockett and not to a coal facility in Richmond,” Gioia said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gioia said that the county health department reached out to state and federal officials about the company unloading at the Richmond terminal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area-air-quality-management-district\">Bay Area Air District\u003c/a> inspected the location on Thursday, and said in a statement that it found no visible emissions from sugar or coal handling operations and documented no violations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12087608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12087608\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1306\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty-160x104.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CoalOaklandGetty-1536x1003.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A train loaded with coal approaches the Levin-Richmond Terminal in Richmond, California, on July 23, 2015. \u003ccite>(Carlos Avila Gonzalez/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A C&H spokesperson said that it’s “common practice for raw sugar logistics globally to be handled via bulk ships and bulk terminals similar to how it is being handled at the Levin Terminal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Once it has been processed in our refinery, we assure the quality of our finished sugar,” C&H said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even though C&H says that raw sugar is not a food product, well, you could’ve fooled me because it is,” said Michael Villeggiante, president of Local 10. “It’s being mixed with a lot of toxic materials.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Records show the ship carrying the sugar, known as the Tai Herald, was in Richmond for about eight and a half days. The ship moved on to Crockett late Friday night and has been docked ever since, according to vessel traffic records.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/jlara\">\u003cem>Juan Carlos Lara\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "BBC World Service"
},
"link": "/radio/program/bbc-world-service",
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"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
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}
},
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"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
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"order": 1
},
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"freakonomics-radio": {
"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"here-and-now": {
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"order": 18
},
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
"meta": {
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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