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"content": "\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> recorded 48 fatal drug overdoses in September, placing the total number of such accidental deaths this year at 399 — including the city’s first fatal overdose from a synthetic opioid sold at gas stations and convenience stores, officials said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>The kratom-derived opioid MGM-15 produces \u003ca href=\"https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2026-13581.pdf\">more potent effects than morphine\u003c/a>.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The products are not safe and can pose a risk of overdosing,” said Hillary Kunins, director of Behavioral Health and Mental Health with the San Francisco Health Department, at a press conference Friday. “People should avoid products that don’t come from reputable sources. And products that contain kratom and kratom-derived substances.”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Earlier this week, the health department \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-fatal-overdose-involving-kratom-derived-opioid\">shared\u003c/a> a photo of the pill’s bright purple packaging, which was marketed as a “paradise blend” of “uncaria tomentosa extract” — an herbal supplement derived from a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/cats-claw?\">wild-growing woody vine\u003c/a> found in the Amazon rainforest and other tropical areas of Central and South America.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>It’s colloquially referred to as “cat’s claw.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12106020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A person rides a skateboard by Houdini’s Smoke Shop in downtown San José on May 28, 2025. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">While very few high-quality scientific studies have been conducted on the drug, the National Institutes of Health’s website said it “appears to be safe when used orally for short periods of time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The packaging shared by the health department doesn’t appear to mention, at all, kratom or MGM-15. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The drug has been labeled as a schedule-1 controlled substance by the Drug Enforcement Agency and can cause physical and psychological dependence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Officials in Utah and Washington have previously identified overdose deaths from MGM-15 in those states.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anyone believed to be suffering an overdose after consuming MGM-15, health officials said, should be given naloxone, often called by its brand name Narcan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">According to the latest \u003ca href=\"https://media.api.sf.gov/documents/2026_10_OCME_Overdose_Report_mlQYRnv.pdf\">snapshot\u003c/a> of the city’s overdose crisis provided by the medical examiner, the majority of the individuals who died in September were white men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Nearly half of the deaths occurred in ZIP codes that include the Tenderloin, Civic Center and Mid-Market neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Overdose deaths have fallen in recent years, but they are still more common than they were before the pandemic in San Francisco, a city with a death rate that is among the worst in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> recorded 48 fatal drug overdoses in September, placing the total number of such accidental deaths this year at 399 — including the city’s first fatal overdose from a synthetic opioid sold at gas stations and convenience stores, officials said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>The kratom-derived opioid MGM-15 produces \u003ca href=\"https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2026-13581.pdf\">more potent effects than morphine\u003c/a>.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The products are not safe and can pose a risk of overdosing,” said Hillary Kunins, director of Behavioral Health and Mental Health with the San Francisco Health Department, at a press conference Friday. “People should avoid products that don’t come from reputable sources. And products that contain kratom and kratom-derived substances.”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Earlier this week, the health department \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-fatal-overdose-involving-kratom-derived-opioid\">shared\u003c/a> a photo of the pill’s bright purple packaging, which was marketed as a “paradise blend” of “uncaria tomentosa extract” — an herbal supplement derived from a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/cats-claw?\">wild-growing woody vine\u003c/a> found in the Amazon rainforest and other tropical areas of Central and South America.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>It’s colloquially referred to as “cat’s claw.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "In September, 48 individuals died from accidental overdoses in San Francisco, according to the latest report on the city’s overdose crisis provided by the medical examiner.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> recorded 48 fatal drug overdoses in September, placing the total number of such accidental deaths this year at 399 — including the city’s first fatal overdose from a synthetic opioid sold at gas stations and convenience stores, officials said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>The kratom-derived opioid MGM-15 produces \u003ca href=\"https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2026-13581.pdf\">more potent effects than morphine\u003c/a>.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The products are not safe and can pose a risk of overdosing,” said Hillary Kunins, director of Behavioral Health and Mental Health with the San Francisco Health Department, at a press conference Friday. “People should avoid products that don’t come from reputable sources. And products that contain kratom and kratom-derived substances.”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Earlier this week, the health department \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-fatal-overdose-involving-kratom-derived-opioid\">shared\u003c/a> a photo of the pill’s bright purple packaging, which was marketed as a “paradise blend” of “uncaria tomentosa extract” — an herbal supplement derived from a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/cats-claw?\">wild-growing woody vine\u003c/a> found in the Amazon rainforest and other tropical areas of Central and South America.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>It’s colloquially referred to as “cat’s claw.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12106020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/250528-SJSMOKESHOPS-JG-4_qed-82757d8a-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A person rides a skateboard by Houdini’s Smoke Shop in downtown San José on May 28, 2025. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">While very few high-quality scientific studies have been conducted on the drug, the National Institutes of Health’s website said it “appears to be safe when used orally for short periods of time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The packaging shared by the health department doesn’t appear to mention, at all, kratom or MGM-15. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The drug has been labeled as a schedule-1 controlled substance by the Drug Enforcement Agency and can cause physical and psychological dependence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Officials in Utah and Washington have previously identified overdose deaths from MGM-15 in those states.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Anyone believed to be suffering an overdose after consuming MGM-15, health officials said, should be given naloxone, often called by its brand name Narcan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">According to the latest \u003ca href=\"https://media.api.sf.gov/documents/2026_10_OCME_Overdose_Report_mlQYRnv.pdf\">snapshot\u003c/a> of the city’s overdose crisis provided by the medical examiner, the majority of the individuals who died in September were white men. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Nearly half of the deaths occurred in ZIP codes that include the Tenderloin, Civic Center and Mid-Market neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Overdose deaths have fallen in recent years, but they are still more common than they were before the pandemic in San Francisco, a city with a death rate that is among the worst in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "oakland-immigration-arrest-raises-questions-about-ice-free-zones-training-at-hospitals",
"title": "East Bay Immigration Arrest Raises Questions About ‘ICE-Free Zones,’ Training at Hospitals",
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"content": "\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">After immigration authorities detained a man in Emeryville last week and brought him to an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/highland-hospital\">Alameda County hospital\u003c/a>, some medical staff said they didn’t receive legally required training that would have helped them respond to enforcement activity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several staff members at Wilma Chan Highland Hospital Campus in Oakland told administrators in a letter that the Oct. 16 arrival of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and a detainee “highlighted major hazards to the rights and safety of our patients.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Immigration agents brought a man to Highland for treatment after an agent allegedly tackled him and fractured six of his ribs, said Nikolas De Bremaeker, an attorney at Centro Legal De La Raza who represents the man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Since then, De Bremaeker and some employees said agents allegedly tried to obstruct access to counsel, to direct medical treatment and to ask staff for medical information. The agent who tackled the patient, the attorney said, has been “sitting on his bed, grinning at him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“It’s incredibly scary,” De Bremaeker told KQED. “It’s just unacceptable for ICE agents to be terrorizing folks inside a hospital.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1505\" height=\"1432\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12105985\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d.jpg 1505w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d-160x152.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1505px) 100vw, 1505px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One side of an Alameda Health System employee’s “badge buddy” that outlines how to respond to immigration authorities when they show up to one of the facilities. (Courtesy of Iman Khalil)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">About two dozen community members were on the lookout for agents on Thursday morning for hours, being directed by others to make noise if immigration authorities exited or entered the facility. They’d been showing up since Monday, an organizer said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Alameda Health System, which Highland is a part of, declined to comment on allegations specific to De Bremaeker’s client’s care, citing patient confidentiality. But said, generally, law enforcement does not direct treatment and the system is complying with all laws and requirements concerning immigration enforcement in its facilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In an earlier statement to KQED about the ICE activity, AHS said that it activated an Incident Command Center and that security personnel are on site monitoring developments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“We are following all immigration response protocols,” AHS said in the statement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Alameda Health System’s training falls short, staff says\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some staff members told AHS in the letter that they “at all levels, remain confused and consistently express a lack of clarity on policy when patients are brought in civil detention.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“This is out of step with current best practices in the state of California,” the staff members wrote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb81\">Senate Bill 81\u003c/a>, which took effect in September 2025, requires medical health care providers to restrict certain immigration information from being shared and, as part of new restrictions to nonpublic areas, facilities must inform staff on how to respond to requests to access sites and establish procedures for receiving visitors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12074474\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Wilma Chan Highland Hospital Campus is seen through flowering branches in Oakland on Feb. 24, 2026. The hospital is part of Alameda Health System. (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But staff told administrators the hospital system isn’t in compliance with that law. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ansel Schmidt, a physical therapist at the Highland Hospital, isn’t on the patient’s care team, but helped draft the letter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“I’m not sure that I’ve received anything that I would call training,” Schmidt told KQED. What Schmidt has received is a “badge buddy,” or a reference guide, that he said implies staff can cooperate with ICE. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A badge buddy reviewed by KQED shows that staff are instructed to notify an administrator when a patient in ICE custody shows up for care. Providers request agents leave during evaluation, inform patients of their rights and, if they don’t meet admission criteria, can be handed off to the ICE control office. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Schmidt said that emails about responding to immigration activity have left him and others feeling “really confused and isolated,” because that “isn’t a training.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In response to staff concerns over training and what training is already in place, AHS said staff are told to “promptly escalate” situations through the appropriate channels where immigration authorities are present at any facility.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“We reinforce these procedures through staff communications, training, scenario-based exercises, desktop training, and quick-reference ‘badge buddies’ that staff can keep with their identification badges,” AHS said. “The protocol has also been reviewed in staff webinar forums, including this week, and recordings are available to staff on our intranet.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Iman Khalil, a respiratory therapist at San Leandro Hospital, part of the Alameda Health System, said staff members receive minimal training about what to do when immigration authorities show up. Khalil received the same badge and emails Schmidt did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“Allowing the agents in the hospital … undoes all that training,” Khalil said. “You really don’t think they’ll even allow the agents in the hospital. But here we are.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">AHS CEO James Jackson told staff that AHS believed the man in ICE’s custody at the hospital was part of the agency’s civil immigration enforcement authority and called on personnel to review established immigration response protocols, according to an Oct. 19 email obtained and reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">ICE-free zone?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Highland Hospital, which sits on county property, also falls under Alameda County’s “ICE-free zone” ordinance that limits cooperation with federal immigration authorities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">County supervisors and advocates touted the policy, of which similar ones have been adopted across the Bay Area, as a way to push back against violent and sometimes deadly actions by immigration agents during the second Trump administration. In January, agents fatally shot Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minnesota during a surge of immigration enforcement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But Alameda County Sheriff Yesenia Sanchez and other officials have also noted the limits of just how far the ICE-free zone can go. It doesn’t prevent immigration officials from actually being on county property, Sanchez \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/01/28/ice-free-zones-are-coming-to-alameda-county/\">said previously\u003c/a>. Officials in other jurisdictions with these “zones” have even referred to them as symbolic — or \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/02/04/ice-free-zones-community-wide-warning-system-weighed-in-richmond-amid-trump-crackdowns/\">a way to create\u003c/a> “false expectations.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1577\" height=\"1560\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12105984\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd.jpg 1577w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd-160x158.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd-1536x1519.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1577px) 100vw, 1577px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One side of an Alameda Health System employee’s “badge buddy” that outlines how to respond to immigration authorities when they show up to one of the facilities. (Courtesy of Iman Khalil)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">De Bremaeker said his client is still in ICE custody as of Thursday afternoon. Another man he represents was detained by ICE in the San Antonio neighborhood in Oakland on the same day, before being taken to another hospital for injuries that De Bremaeker said were sustained because of the officers’ actions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The two cases are part of an “unprecedented escalation” of violence from ICE, De Bremaeker said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The attorney called on federal lawmakers to launch a congressional inquiry into ICE’s actions and, in particular, the agency’s activity in hospitals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“They have been occupying these hospitals for days, creating an incredible threat to community members, terrifying folks who need medical care from going to the hospital,” De Bremaeker said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">ICE said that De Bremaeker’s client — who the agency characterized as an “illegal alien” — was arrested as part of a targeted enforcement operation. During which, the agency said the detainee tried to assault officers and refused lawful commands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“Officers relied on their training to control the situation,” an ICE spokesperson said, adding that De Bremaeker’s client disclosed a preexisting injury of falling off a ladder two days prior. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The agency said, like other law enforcement agencies, it is standard procedure for ICE to accompany detainees for the safety of staff and public. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Renee Coe, with the Party for Socialism and Liberation, is among the community members who came out to keep watch for ICE at the hospital. She said some community members are scared to show up to the hospital because of federal agents’ presence, but urged them not to put off medical care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">AHS said its property is not being used as a staging area, operations base or processing location for immigration enforcement activities, and the immigration vehicles currently on Highland property are present “only in connection with a patient who is in immigration enforcement custody.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several Oakland residents are holding an emergency press conference at 6 p.m. on Friday in front of Highland to demand the release of De Bremaeker’s client and accountability for local authorities, security contracting with the facility and AHS “continuously” assisting ICE operations at the hospital. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>KQED’s\u003c/em> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/bkrans\">\u003cem>Brian Krans\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Several staff members at Wilma Chan Highland Hospital Campus in Oakland told administrators in a letter that the Oct. 16 arrival of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and a detainee “highlighted major hazards to the rights and safety of our patients.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Immigration agents brought a man to Highland for treatment after an agent allegedly tackled him and fractured six of his ribs, said Nikolas De Bremaeker, an attorney at Centro Legal De La Raza who represents the man. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Immigration agents brought a man to Highland for treatment after an agent allegedly tackled him and fractured six of his ribs, said Nikolas De Bremaeker, an attorney at Centro Legal De La Raza who represents the man. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since then, De Bremaeker and some employees said agents allegedly tried to obstruct access to counsel, to direct medical treatment and to ask staff for medical information. The agent who tackled the patient, the attorney said, has been “sitting on his bed, grinning at him.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since then, De Bremaeker and some employees said agents allegedly tried to obstruct access to counsel, to direct medical treatment and to ask staff for medical information. The agent who tackled the patient, the attorney said, has been “sitting on his bed, grinning at him.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s incredibly scary,” De Bremaeker told KQED. “It’s just unacceptable for ICE agents to be terrorizing folks inside a hospital.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12105985\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d.jpg 1505w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d-160x152.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One side of an Alameda Health System employee’s “badge buddy” that outlines how to respond to immigration authorities when they show up to one of the facilities. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of Iman Khalil)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>About two dozen community members were on the lookout for agents on Thursday morning for hours, being directed by others to make noise if immigration authorities exited or entered the facility. They’d been showing up since Monday, an organizer said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Alameda Health System, which Highland is a part of, declined to comment on allegations specific to De Bremaeker’s client’s care, citing patient confidentiality. But said, generally, law enforcement does not direct treatment and the system is complying with all laws and requirements concerning immigration enforcement in its facilities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Alameda Health System, which Highland is a part of, declined to comment on allegations specific to De Bremaeker’s client’s care, citing patient confidentiality. But said, generally, law enforcement does not direct treatment and the system is complying with all laws and requirements concerning immigration enforcement in its facilities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In an earlier statement to KQED about the ICE activity, AHS said that it activated an Incident Command Center and that security personnel are on site monitoring developments. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We are following all immigration response protocols,” AHS said in the statement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some staff members told AHS in the letter that they “at all levels, remain confused and consistently express a lack of clarity on policy when patients are brought in civil detention.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is out of step with current best practices in the state of California,” the staff members wrote. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb81\">Senate Bill 81\u003c/a>, which took effect in September 2025, requires medical health care providers to restrict certain immigration information from being shared and, as part of new restrictions to nonpublic areas, facilities must inform staff on how to respond to requests to access sites and establish procedures for receiving visitors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb81\">Senate Bill 81\u003c/a>, which took effect in September 2025, requires medical health care providers to restrict certain immigration information from being shared and, as part of new restrictions to nonpublic areas, facilities must inform staff on how to respond to requests to access sites and establish procedures for receiving visitors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12074474\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Wilma Chan Highland Hospital Campus is seen through flowering branches in Oakland on Feb. 24, 2026. The hospital is part of Alameda Health System.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12074474\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Wilma Chan Highland Hospital Campus is seen through flowering branches in Oakland on Feb. 24, 2026. The hospital is part of Alameda Health System.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ansel Schmidt, a physical therapist at the Highland Hospital, isn’t on the patient’s care team, but helped draft the letter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’m not sure that I’ve received anything that I would call training,” Schmidt told KQED. What Schmidt has received is a “badge buddy,” or a reference guide, that he said implies staff can cooperate with ICE. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A badge buddy reviewed by KQED shows that staff are instructed to notify an administrator when a patient in ICE custody shows up for care. Providers request agents leave during evaluation, inform patients of their rights and, if they don’t meet admission criteria, can be handed off to the ICE control office. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Schmidt said that emails about responding to immigration activity have left him and others feeling “really confused and isolated,” because that “isn’t a training.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In response to staff concerns over training and what training is already in place, AHS said staff are told to “promptly escalate” situations through the appropriate channels where immigration authorities are present at any facility.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We reinforce these procedures through staff communications, training, scenario-based exercises, desktop training, and quick-reference ‘badge buddies’ that staff can keep with their identification badges,” AHS said. “The protocol has also been reviewed in staff webinar forums, including this week, and recordings are available to staff on our intranet.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We reinforce these procedures through staff communications, training, scenario-based exercises, desktop training, and quick-reference ‘badge buddies’ that staff can keep with their identification badges,” AHS said. “The protocol has also been reviewed in staff webinar forums, including this week, and recordings are available to staff on our intranet.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Iman Khalil, a respiratory therapist at San Leandro Hospital, part of the Alameda Health System, said staff members receive minimal training about what to do when immigration authorities show up. Khalil received the same badge and emails Schmidt did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Iman Khalil, a respiratory therapist at San Leandro Hospital, part of the Alameda Health System, said staff members receive minimal training about what to do when immigration authorities show up. Khalil received the same badge and emails Schmidt did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Allowing the agents in the hospital … undoes all that training,” Khalil said. “You really don’t think they’ll even allow the agents in the hospital. But here we are.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Allowing the agents in the hospital … undoes all that training,” Khalil said. “You really don’t think they’ll even allow the agents in the hospital. But here we are.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>AHS CEO James Jackson told staff that AHS believed the man in ICE’s custody at the hospital was part of the agency’s civil immigration enforcement authority and called on personnel to review established immigration response protocols, according to an Oct. 19 email obtained and reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>AHS CEO James Jackson told staff that AHS believed the man in ICE’s custody at the hospital was part of the agency’s civil immigration enforcement authority and called on personnel to review established immigration response protocols, according to an Oct. 19 email obtained and reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Highland Hospital, which sits on county property, also falls under Alameda County’s “ICE-free zone” ordinance that limits cooperation with federal immigration authorities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>County supervisors and advocates touted the policy, of which similar ones have been adopted across the Bay Area, as a way to push back against violent and sometimes deadly actions by immigration agents during the second Trump administration. In January, agents fatally shot Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minnesota during a surge of immigration enforcement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>County supervisors and advocates touted the policy, of which similar ones have been adopted across the Bay Area, as a way to push back against violent and sometimes deadly actions by immigration agents during the second Trump administration. In January, agents fatally shot Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minnesota during a surge of immigration enforcement. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Alameda County Sheriff Yesenia Sanchez and other officials have also noted the limits of just how far the ICE-free zone can go. It doesn’t prevent immigration officials from actually being on county property, Sanchez \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/01/28/ice-free-zones-are-coming-to-alameda-county/\">said previously\u003c/a>. Officials in other jurisdictions with these “zones” have even referred to them as symbolic — or \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/02/04/ice-free-zones-community-wide-warning-system-weighed-in-richmond-amid-trump-crackdowns/\">a way to create\u003c/a> “false expectations.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But Alameda County Sheriff Yesenia Sanchez and other officials have also noted the limits of just how far the ICE-free zone can go. It doesn’t prevent immigration officials from actually being on county property, Sanchez \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/01/28/ice-free-zones-are-coming-to-alameda-county/\">said previously\u003c/a>. Officials in other jurisdictions with these “zones” have even referred to them as symbolic — or \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/02/04/ice-free-zones-community-wide-warning-system-weighed-in-richmond-amid-trump-crackdowns/\">a way to create\u003c/a> “false expectations.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>De Bremaeker said his client is still in ICE custody as of Thursday afternoon. Another man he represents was detained by ICE in the San Antonio neighborhood in Oakland on the same day, before being taken to another hospital for injuries that De Bremaeker said were sustained because of the officers’ actions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>De Bremaeker said his client is still in ICE custody as of Thursday afternoon. Another man he represents was detained by ICE in the San Antonio neighborhood in Oakland on the same day, before being taken to another hospital for injuries that De Bremaeker said were sustained because of the officers’ actions. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The two cases are part of an “unprecedented escalation” of violence from ICE, De Bremaeker said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The attorney called on federal lawmakers to launch a congressional inquiry into ICE’s actions and, in particular, the agency’s activity in hospitals. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They have been occupying these hospitals for days, creating an incredible threat to community members, terrifying folks who need medical care from going to the hospital,” De Bremaeker said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>ICE said that De Bremaeker’s client — who the agency characterized as an “illegal alien” — was arrested as part of a targeted enforcement operation. During which, the agency said the detainee tried to assault officers and refused lawful commands. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Officers relied on their training to control the situation,” an ICE spokesperson said, adding that De Bremaeker’s client disclosed a preexisting injury of falling off a ladder two days prior. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Renee Coe, with the Party for Socialism and Liberation, is among the community members who came out to keep watch for ICE at the hospital. She said some community members are scared to show up to the hospital because of federal agents’ presence, but urged them not to put off medical care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Renee Coe, with the Party for Socialism and Liberation, is among the community members who came out to keep watch for ICE at the hospital. She said some community members are scared to show up to the hospital because of federal agents’ presence, but urged them not to put off medical care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>AHS said its property is not being used as a staging area, operations base or processing location for immigration enforcement activities, and the immigration vehicles currently on Highland property are present “only in connection with a patient who is in immigration enforcement custody.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>AHS said its property is not being used as a staging area, operations base or processing location for immigration enforcement activities, and the immigration vehicles currently on Highland property are present “only in connection with a patient who is in immigration enforcement custody.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Several Oakland residents are holding an emergency press conference at 6 p.m. on Friday in front of Highland to demand the release of De Bremaeker’s client and accountability for local authorities, security contracting with the facility and AHS “continuously” assisting ICE operations at the hospital. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Several Oakland residents are holding an emergency press conference at 6 p.m. on Friday in front of Highland to demand the release of De Bremaeker’s client and accountability for local authorities, security contracting with the facility and AHS “continuously” assisting ICE operations at the hospital. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s\u003c/em> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/bkrans\">\u003cem>Brian Krans\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Oakland’s Highland Hospital staff and community members expressed concerns after ICE agents allegedly brought a patient in with six fractured ribs last week. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">After immigration authorities detained a man in Emeryville last week and brought him to an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/highland-hospital\">Alameda County hospital\u003c/a>, some medical staff said they didn’t receive legally required training that would have helped them respond to enforcement activity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several staff members at Wilma Chan Highland Hospital Campus in Oakland told administrators in a letter that the Oct. 16 arrival of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and a detainee “highlighted major hazards to the rights and safety of our patients.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Immigration agents brought a man to Highland for treatment after an agent allegedly tackled him and fractured six of his ribs, said Nikolas De Bremaeker, an attorney at Centro Legal De La Raza who represents the man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Since then, De Bremaeker and some employees said agents allegedly tried to obstruct access to counsel, to direct medical treatment and to ask staff for medical information. The agent who tackled the patient, the attorney said, has been “sitting on his bed, grinning at him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“It’s incredibly scary,” De Bremaeker told KQED. “It’s just unacceptable for ICE agents to be terrorizing folks inside a hospital.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1505\" height=\"1432\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12105985\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d.jpg 1505w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-03-5314ee6d-160x152.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1505px) 100vw, 1505px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One side of an Alameda Health System employee’s “badge buddy” that outlines how to respond to immigration authorities when they show up to one of the facilities. (Courtesy of Iman Khalil)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">About two dozen community members were on the lookout for agents on Thursday morning for hours, being directed by others to make noise if immigration authorities exited or entered the facility. They’d been showing up since Monday, an organizer said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Alameda Health System, which Highland is a part of, declined to comment on allegations specific to De Bremaeker’s client’s care, citing patient confidentiality. But said, generally, law enforcement does not direct treatment and the system is complying with all laws and requirements concerning immigration enforcement in its facilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In an earlier statement to KQED about the ICE activity, AHS said that it activated an Incident Command Center and that security personnel are on site monitoring developments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“We are following all immigration response protocols,” AHS said in the statement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Alameda Health System’s training falls short, staff says\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some staff members told AHS in the letter that they “at all levels, remain confused and consistently express a lack of clarity on policy when patients are brought in civil detention.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“This is out of step with current best practices in the state of California,” the staff members wrote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb81\">Senate Bill 81\u003c/a>, which took effect in September 2025, requires medical health care providers to restrict certain immigration information from being shared and, as part of new restrictions to nonpublic areas, facilities must inform staff on how to respond to requests to access sites and establish procedures for receiving visitors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12074474\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/022426_ALAMEDA-COUNTY-HEALTH-CUTS-_GH_010-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Wilma Chan Highland Hospital Campus is seen through flowering branches in Oakland on Feb. 24, 2026. The hospital is part of Alameda Health System. (Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But staff told administrators the hospital system isn’t in compliance with that law. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ansel Schmidt, a physical therapist at the Highland Hospital, isn’t on the patient’s care team, but helped draft the letter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“I’m not sure that I’ve received anything that I would call training,” Schmidt told KQED. What Schmidt has received is a “badge buddy,” or a reference guide, that he said implies staff can cooperate with ICE. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A badge buddy reviewed by KQED shows that staff are instructed to notify an administrator when a patient in ICE custody shows up for care. Providers request agents leave during evaluation, inform patients of their rights and, if they don’t meet admission criteria, can be handed off to the ICE control office. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Schmidt said that emails about responding to immigration activity have left him and others feeling “really confused and isolated,” because that “isn’t a training.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In response to staff concerns over training and what training is already in place, AHS said staff are told to “promptly escalate” situations through the appropriate channels where immigration authorities are present at any facility.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“We reinforce these procedures through staff communications, training, scenario-based exercises, desktop training, and quick-reference ‘badge buddies’ that staff can keep with their identification badges,” AHS said. “The protocol has also been reviewed in staff webinar forums, including this week, and recordings are available to staff on our intranet.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Iman Khalil, a respiratory therapist at San Leandro Hospital, part of the Alameda Health System, said staff members receive minimal training about what to do when immigration authorities show up. Khalil received the same badge and emails Schmidt did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“Allowing the agents in the hospital … undoes all that training,” Khalil said. “You really don’t think they’ll even allow the agents in the hospital. But here we are.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">AHS CEO James Jackson told staff that AHS believed the man in ICE’s custody at the hospital was part of the agency’s civil immigration enforcement authority and called on personnel to review established immigration response protocols, according to an Oct. 19 email obtained and reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">ICE-free zone?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Highland Hospital, which sits on county property, also falls under Alameda County’s “ICE-free zone” ordinance that limits cooperation with federal immigration authorities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">County supervisors and advocates touted the policy, of which similar ones have been adopted across the Bay Area, as a way to push back against violent and sometimes deadly actions by immigration agents during the second Trump administration. In January, agents fatally shot Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minnesota during a surge of immigration enforcement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But Alameda County Sheriff Yesenia Sanchez and other officials have also noted the limits of just how far the ICE-free zone can go. It doesn’t prevent immigration officials from actually being on county property, Sanchez \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/01/28/ice-free-zones-are-coming-to-alameda-county/\">said previously\u003c/a>. Officials in other jurisdictions with these “zones” have even referred to them as symbolic — or \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/02/04/ice-free-zones-community-wide-warning-system-weighed-in-richmond-amid-trump-crackdowns/\">a way to create\u003c/a> “false expectations.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1577\" height=\"1560\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12105984\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd.jpg 1577w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd-160x158.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261023-Highland-Hospital-SK-02-0b437edd-1536x1519.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1577px) 100vw, 1577px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One side of an Alameda Health System employee’s “badge buddy” that outlines how to respond to immigration authorities when they show up to one of the facilities. (Courtesy of Iman Khalil)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">De Bremaeker said his client is still in ICE custody as of Thursday afternoon. Another man he represents was detained by ICE in the San Antonio neighborhood in Oakland on the same day, before being taken to another hospital for injuries that De Bremaeker said were sustained because of the officers’ actions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The two cases are part of an “unprecedented escalation” of violence from ICE, De Bremaeker said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The attorney called on federal lawmakers to launch a congressional inquiry into ICE’s actions and, in particular, the agency’s activity in hospitals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“They have been occupying these hospitals for days, creating an incredible threat to community members, terrifying folks who need medical care from going to the hospital,” De Bremaeker said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">ICE said that De Bremaeker’s client — who the agency characterized as an “illegal alien” — was arrested as part of a targeted enforcement operation. During which, the agency said the detainee tried to assault officers and refused lawful commands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">“Officers relied on their training to control the situation,” an ICE spokesperson said, adding that De Bremaeker’s client disclosed a preexisting injury of falling off a ladder two days prior. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The agency said, like other law enforcement agencies, it is standard procedure for ICE to accompany detainees for the safety of staff and public. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Renee Coe, with the Party for Socialism and Liberation, is among the community members who came out to keep watch for ICE at the hospital. She said some community members are scared to show up to the hospital because of federal agents’ presence, but urged them not to put off medical care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">AHS said its property is not being used as a staging area, operations base or processing location for immigration enforcement activities, and the immigration vehicles currently on Highland property are present “only in connection with a patient who is in immigration enforcement custody.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several Oakland residents are holding an emergency press conference at 6 p.m. on Friday in front of Highland to demand the release of De Bremaeker’s client and accountability for local authorities, security contracting with the facility and AHS “continuously” assisting ICE operations at the hospital. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u003cem>KQED’s\u003c/em> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/bkrans\">\u003cem>Brian Krans\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "one-key-to-californias-climate-goals-how-we-cook",
"title": "One Key To California's Climate Goals? How We Cook",
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"headTitle": "One Key To California’s Climate Goals? How We Cook | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>The vast majority of commercial kitchens in California — some 85% — rely on gas to power their appliances. But scientists say that will have to change if the state hopes to reach its goal of net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045. Bay Area food franchise Flour + Water is one of many local shops leading the charge away from gas appliances. In today’s episode, KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman visits an electric pizza kitchen to help us understand the benefits of electrification and what’s preventing more kitchens from making the switch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/2002089/heres-what-all-electric-bay-area-restaurants-have-learned-from-ditching-gas\">Here’s What All-Electric Bay Area Restaurants Have Learned From Ditching Gas\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Many think of California as a leader when it comes to fighting climate change. We’ve got this ambitious goal of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045. But there are a lot of things that get in the way of that. Like our reliance on cars and perhaps one less obvious reason, how we cook. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:32] \u003c/em>As long as there are stoves with a gas pipe leading to them, we’re going to keep burning gas in this state. And restaurants are this very entrenched use of natural gas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>85% of California restaurants use gas to power their appliances. And it turns out, electrifying restaurant kitchens could actually play a pretty big role in getting us closer to our climate goals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:04] \u003c/em>We know that the pollution that’s created by burning fossil fuels is harmful and there’s no reason to do that now when cleaner, better technologies are available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:14] \u003c/em>Today, the benefits of electrifying California’s restaurants and what it’s gonna take to get more of them on board. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>You know, we think of California as like this leader in climate change, right? We have more efficient fuel for our cars. We invest in transit and carpooling and all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:39] \u003c/em>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:44] \u003c/em>Buildings, and then restaurants in particular, are this one place where we’re really behind. Buildings are responsible for about a quarter of all of California’s greenhouse gas emissions and restaurants in our state use gas at a much higher rate than other states. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:03] \u003c/em>This is a sleeper issue. A lot of people don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:07] \u003c/em>Brandy Seals is the Director of the Electrification for Health program at Stanford University. And they’re really looking at benefits of electrifying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:18] \u003c/em>So when you look at commercial spaces, kitchens, and food service, they have about five times the energy usage of a standard office. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:28] \u003c/em>She says that commercial kitchens really like punch above their weight. Because restaurants use gas, they’re also sort of cementing this demand for gas. So she says that if we’re gonna really address this issue of climate change, we need to start looking at buildings and specifically restaurants. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:48] \u003c/em>So it sounds like commercial kitchens are maybe an untapped space for electrification that I’m definitely not thinking about. But what are the barriers to actually making it happen and also making it more common? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:03] \u003c/em>Well, I think like, first off, just put yourself in the shoes of a restaurant owner, right? Restaurants run on extremely thin margins. You know, there’s a lot of turnover, like, you know, most restaurants don’t even make it a year, right. And in order to switch to electricity, that’s a big investment, right, most restaurants are going to come with gas hookups for your appliances. But in order to switch electric, you gotta get a new panel, you got to pay for new electric service. You gotta buy these appliances. Electricity, not cheap in California. I mean, we have the most expensive electricity in the Continental 48. There’s also not as much of a demand in the market. So it’s just kind of like this small niche thing that’s growing that is kind of still waiting to see its moment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:59] \u003c/em>So you visited a restaurant that actually went electric. Who did you meet and what did they say about the practical barriers that they faced? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:11] \u003c/em>Can we do a little tour? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:12] \u003c/em>Yeah, of course. So our pantry section or garmagé. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:16] \u003c/em>So I went to Flower and Water. They have a pizza shop in Oakland, but they’re part of this restaurant group. They’ve essentially committed to making all of their future restaurants electric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:29] \u003c/em>Machines, slushies, burners, fryers, everything here runs on electric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:35] \u003c/em>I talked to their CEO, Thomas McNaughton. He said basically, when you said like electric oven to him like 10 years ago, he was like, he thought of like an Easy Bake Oven, you know, like a toy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:45] \u003c/em>And I didn’t realize how evolved the technology really is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:49] \u003c/em>But he said that changed around six years ago. He started seeing these electric ovens that were like really powerful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>And that kind of introduced us to the idea, saying, like, if this oven is so powerful, couldn’t we build our entire operation around electricity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:07] \u003c/em>He said that sustainability is like a really important value of theirs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:11] \u003c/em>Sustainability for us is not just where we buy our seafood from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:19] \u003c/em>In terms of like the challenges that he faced, he said that whether or not a space has the ability to like accommodate the electrical load that like an electric kitchen requires is a limiting factor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:36] \u003c/em>A lot of older properties we’re not able to look at. And so that’s one that can feel somewhat constricting at times. Problem solving is one of the most fascinating parts of the job of a chef or a restaurateur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:51] \u003c/em>And that sounds kind of expensive, maybe? What was that process like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:55] \u003c/em>What McNaughton said is that in general to buy electric appliances is a little more expensive than gas ones, to run them is more expensive. They spend about $8,000 a month at their Oakland location on electricity, which is like 34 times higher than the average household in California. Oh my goodness. So it’s a considerable load. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:16] \u003c/em>That’s a lot of money every month, Azul, for electricity. I mean, what makes it worth it for him? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:22] \u003c/em>Well, I think on one hand, you know, he said sustainability is like a big part of their business So there is value in sort of like a non numerical thing for them I think now it’s sort of liked baked in no pun intended into their business, right? Like they are an electric Restaurant and it’s part of like kind of the identity of their pizza \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:46] \u003c/em>And really, these electric ovens, I think, really are creating this kind of new wave of pizza making because they’re so powerful, because you can toggle both deck top and bottom heat. It actually, we can incorporate a fair amount of char, like a Neapolitan pizza, but actually slow down the bake time. And that incorporates a lot more texture into our high-hydration dough that, to me, is incredibly craveable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:16] \u003c/em>Did you taste it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:17] \u003c/em>I did. yeah, I mean flower waters. It’s good pizza. I don’t think that’s a controversial take McNaughton’s like a finalist for like the James Beard Awards before so \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:29] \u003c/em>Yeah, they’re doing pretty well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:31] \u003c/em>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:32] \u003c/em>So my name’s Azul, I’m a reporter at KQED. Did you know that flour and water was all electric? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:38] \u003c/em>I did not know that they were all electric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:59] \u003c/em>We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, the health case for electric kitchens. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you here on the Bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:27] \u003c/em>I guess aside from the broader ecological benefits of going electric, what do experts say about the other benefits for restaurants going electric? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:38] \u003c/em>Just to like put a number on it, there’s a new study that actually came out this month that found that 70% of gas burning kitchens, so these are commercial kitchens that were studied, exceeded the recommended limits for nitrogen dioxide that’s like federal health standards. They also found, you know, like elevated levels of carbon dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>You would never stand over the tailpipe of your car breathing in those pollutants, and yet people stand over a stove breathing the same pollutants day after day, meal after meal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:13] \u003c/em>I talked to Rob Jackson, he’s an environmental scientist at Stanford University, and he talked about this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:18] \u003c/em>We know that the pollution that’s created by burning fossil fuels is harmful, and there’s no reason to do that now when cleaner, better technologies are available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:28] \u003c/em>And then imagine if you’re a chef in a kitchen, you’re standing over that burner for eight hours a day. And I talked to some of the chefs, they said like, it’s less greasy, you have a little bit more control. Like one thing they said about induction is like, you’ll never have a pot of cream boil over because with an induction cooktop, you can just like set it at a number and it’ll just stay there. Whereas with like flame, the heat transfer, things just get hotter and hotter. There is like some push back against cooking with induction or electric. A lot of chefs, you know, have hesitation around changing their cooking practices. The California Restaurant Association, which is this trade association group for the California restaurant industry, in a commercial from 2019, they said like, what about like searing meat or charring vegetables? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:23] \u003c/em>Or cooking food in a wok over high intensity heat. All of that would go away. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:28] \u003c/em>Some of that could be due to the fact that induction is still catching up to where it needs to be in terms of technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:36] \u003c/em>Try doing three or 400 covers a night on an electric stove. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:42] \u003c/em>How you cook is very personal. There’s cultural practices, there’s how you learned in cooking school, all these things that go into it. So, while McNaughton promotes this move that he’s made very heavily, a lot of people have doubts about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:56] \u003c/em>Have there been any efforts at the local and statewide level to push more commercial kitchens to make this change?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:04] \u003c/em>There’s been like a specific push for commercial kitchens and there’s been a broader push just to get gas out of all buildings. So you can go back to like 2019 in Berkeley. Berkeley passed a ban on natural gas in new construction. And the city of Berkeley is leading the charge with the law that covers new construction. That got a lot of pushback from the California restaurant association that successfully defeated the, the band in the courts by arguing basically like Berkeley was overstepping its bounds. They were trying to regulate the efficiency of things when that’s the remit of the title. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newscaster: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:40] \u003c/em>New at 10 tonight, the City of Berkeley lost its latest legal battle. Today, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied Berkeley’s petition for the court to rehear the case after the ban was ruled illegal last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:53] \u003c/em>There’s also efforts at the state level to incentivize kitchens specifically to go all electric. There’s rebates available through California utilities like PG&E for commercial kitchens to buy appliances. There’s these Chef Fluencers that is run by this group called the Building Decarbonization Coalition. And their jobs are basically to like preach the good word of induction and encourage people to adopt it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:22] \u003c/em>Yeah, there’s the practical piece of it of just making it easier, lowering the barriers for restaurants to get access to these things. But also there’s this norms piece of like really trying to get people in the restaurant industry to, I guess, see this as a thing that they could do that wouldn’t impact their food quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:46] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, you know, when most people think of electric cooking, they think of those like janky electric coil stoves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:52] \u003c/em>Oh yeah, me too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:53] \u003c/em>But like that’s not what this is. This is like the technology has come a long way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:58] \u003c/em>I think that there’s some misconceptions about it. Oh my goodness, it’s not gonna achieve the same quality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:06] \u003c/em>I spoke to Katie Chin. She’s a chef fluencer and a caterer based in Southern California. And she’s had her own journey with induction. Like when she first used it, she was like, oh no, like, you know, I’m a cater, I’m professional caterer. Like I gotta cook. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:22] \u003c/em>I had never cooked on one and it scared me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:25] \u003c/em>She told me this story about being stuck in Southern California traffic on the way to a catering gig and actually being thankful that there was induction at her client’s house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:36] \u003c/em>Seeing is believing. So I was able to boil the water for, you know, 600 dumplings in a fraction of the time it would have taken for me to use a gas stove and heat up all that water. \u003cem>[00:13:45]\u003c/em>\u003cem>[9.1]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:46] \u003c/em>She really says that people should try to keep an open mind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:52] \u003c/em>And a lot of people associate like, well, how can you, how can get those great stir fries if you’re not like, you know how people flip the wok like this? I think the main stereotype is that, oh, it’s not gonna get hot enough. And I see no difference at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:09] \u003c/em>I gotta say, Azul, when I think about our state fighting climate change, I don’t really think about commercial kitchens very much, but how much of a difference could it actually make if more commercial kitchens in the state address their emissions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:26] \u003c/em>I think it comes down to this thing where it’s like, as long as there are stoves with a gas pipe leading to them, we’re going to keep burning gas in this state. And if California is going to truly like decarbonize and get off gas, then we need to start looking at our buildings and restaurants are this very entrenched use of natural gas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:55] \u003c/em>Azul, this was such an interesting story. Thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us. Appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:01] \u003c/em>You’re welcome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The vast majority of commercial kitchens in California — some 85% — rely on gas to power their appliances. But scientists say that will have to change if the state hopes to reach its goal of net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045. Bay Area food franchise Flour + Water is one of many local shops leading the charge away from gas appliances. In today’s episode, KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman visits an electric pizza kitchen to help us understand the benefits of electrification and what’s preventing more kitchens from making the switch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Many think of California as a leader when it comes to fighting climate change. We’ve got this ambitious goal of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045. But there are a lot of things that get in the way of that. Like our reliance on cars and perhaps one less obvious reason, how we cook. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Many think of California as a leader when it comes to fighting climate change. We’ve got this ambitious goal of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045. But there are a lot of things that get in the way of that. Like our reliance on cars and perhaps one less obvious reason, how we cook. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:32] \u003c/em>As long as there are stoves with a gas pipe leading to them, we’re going to keep burning gas in this state. And restaurants are this very entrenched use of natural gas. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:32] \u003c/em>As long as there are stoves with a gas pipe leading to them, we’re going to keep burning gas in this state. And restaurants are this very entrenched use of natural gas. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>85% of California restaurants use gas to power their appliances. And it turns out, electrifying restaurant kitchens could actually play a pretty big role in getting us closer to our climate goals. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>85% of California restaurants use gas to power their appliances. And it turns out, electrifying restaurant kitchens could actually play a pretty big role in getting us closer to our climate goals. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:04] \u003c/em>We know that the pollution that’s created by burning fossil fuels is harmful and there’s no reason to do that now when cleaner, better technologies are available. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:04] \u003c/em>We know that the pollution that’s created by burning fossil fuels is harmful and there’s no reason to do that now when cleaner, better technologies are available. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:14] \u003c/em>Today, the benefits of electrifying California’s restaurants and what it’s gonna take to get more of them on board. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:14] \u003c/em>Today, the benefits of electrifying California’s restaurants and what it’s gonna take to get more of them on board. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>You know, we think of California as like this leader in climate change, right? We have more efficient fuel for our cars. We invest in transit and carpooling and all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>You know, we think of California as like this leader in climate change, right? We have more efficient fuel for our cars. We invest in transit and carpooling and all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:39] \u003c/em>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:44] \u003c/em>Buildings, and then restaurants in particular, are this one place where we’re really behind. Buildings are responsible for about a quarter of all of California’s greenhouse gas emissions and restaurants in our state use gas at a much higher rate than other states. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:44] \u003c/em>Buildings, and then restaurants in particular, are this one place where we’re really behind. Buildings are responsible for about a quarter of all of California’s greenhouse gas emissions and restaurants in our state use gas at a much higher rate than other states. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:03] \u003c/em>This is a sleeper issue. A lot of people don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:03] \u003c/em>This is a sleeper issue. A lot of people don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:07] \u003c/em>Brandy Seals is the Director of the Electrification for Health program at Stanford University. And they’re really looking at benefits of electrifying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:18] \u003c/em>So when you look at commercial spaces, kitchens, and food service, they have about five times the energy usage of a standard office. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:18] \u003c/em>So when you look at commercial spaces, kitchens, and food service, they have about five times the energy usage of a standard office. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:28] \u003c/em>She says that commercial kitchens really like punch above their weight. Because restaurants use gas, they’re also sort of cementing this demand for gas. So she says that if we’re gonna really address this issue of climate change, we need to start looking at buildings and specifically restaurants. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:28] \u003c/em>She says that commercial kitchens really like punch above their weight. Because restaurants use gas, they’re also sort of cementing this demand for gas. So she says that if we’re gonna really address this issue of climate change, we need to start looking at buildings and specifically restaurants. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:48] \u003c/em>So it sounds like commercial kitchens are maybe an untapped space for electrification that I’m definitely not thinking about. But what are the barriers to actually making it happen and also making it more common? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:03] \u003c/em>Well, I think like, first off, just put yourself in the shoes of a restaurant owner, right? Restaurants run on extremely thin margins. You know, there’s a lot of turnover, like, you know, most restaurants don’t even make it a year, right. And in order to switch to electricity, that’s a big investment, right, most restaurants are going to come with gas hookups for your appliances. But in order to switch electric, you gotta get a new panel, you got to pay for new electric service. You gotta buy these appliances. Electricity, not cheap in California. I mean, we have the most expensive electricity in the Continental 48. There’s also not as much of a demand in the market. So it’s just kind of like this small niche thing that’s growing that is kind of still waiting to see its moment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:03] \u003c/em>Well, I think like, first off, just put yourself in the shoes of a restaurant owner, right? Restaurants run on extremely thin margins. You know, there’s a lot of turnover, like, you know, most restaurants don’t even make it a year, right. And in order to switch to electricity, that’s a big investment, right, most restaurants are going to come with gas hookups for your appliances. But in order to switch electric, you gotta get a new panel, you got to pay for new electric service. You gotta buy these appliances. Electricity, not cheap in California. I mean, we have the most expensive electricity in the Continental 48. There’s also not as much of a demand in the market. So it’s just kind of like this small niche thing that’s growing that is kind of still waiting to see its moment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:59] \u003c/em>So you visited a restaurant that actually went electric. Who did you meet and what did they say about the practical barriers that they faced? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:11] \u003c/em>Can we do a little tour? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:12] \u003c/em>Yeah, of course. So our pantry section or garmagé. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:12] \u003c/em>Yeah, of course. So our pantry section or garmagé. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:16] \u003c/em>So I went to Flower and Water. They have a pizza shop in Oakland, but they’re part of this restaurant group. They’ve essentially committed to making all of their future restaurants electric.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:29] \u003c/em>Machines, slushies, burners, fryers, everything here runs on electric.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:35] \u003c/em>I talked to their CEO, Thomas McNaughton. He said basically, when you said like electric oven to him like 10 years ago, he was like, he thought of like an Easy Bake Oven, you know, like a toy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:35] \u003c/em>I talked to their CEO, Thomas McNaughton. He said basically, when you said like electric oven to him like 10 years ago, he was like, he thought of like an Easy Bake Oven, you know, like a toy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:45] \u003c/em>And I didn’t realize how evolved the technology really is. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:49] \u003c/em>But he said that changed around six years ago. He started seeing these electric ovens that were like really powerful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>And that kind of introduced us to the idea, saying, like, if this oven is so powerful, couldn’t we build our entire operation around electricity?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>And that kind of introduced us to the idea, saying, like, if this oven is so powerful, couldn’t we build our entire operation around electricity?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:07] \u003c/em>He said that sustainability is like a really important value of theirs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:11] \u003c/em>Sustainability for us is not just where we buy our seafood from. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:11] \u003c/em>Sustainability for us is not just where we buy our seafood from. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:19] \u003c/em>In terms of like the challenges that he faced, he said that whether or not a space has the ability to like accommodate the electrical load that like an electric kitchen requires is a limiting factor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:19] \u003c/em>In terms of like the challenges that he faced, he said that whether or not a space has the ability to like accommodate the electrical load that like an electric kitchen requires is a limiting factor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:36] \u003c/em>A lot of older properties we’re not able to look at. And so that’s one that can feel somewhat constricting at times. Problem solving is one of the most fascinating parts of the job of a chef or a restaurateur. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:36] \u003c/em>A lot of older properties we’re not able to look at. And so that’s one that can feel somewhat constricting at times. Problem solving is one of the most fascinating parts of the job of a chef or a restaurateur. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:51] \u003c/em>And that sounds kind of expensive, maybe? What was that process like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:51] \u003c/em>And that sounds kind of expensive, maybe? What was that process like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:55] \u003c/em>What McNaughton said is that in general to buy electric appliances is a little more expensive than gas ones, to run them is more expensive. They spend about $8,000 a month at their Oakland location on electricity, which is like 34 times higher than the average household in California. Oh my goodness. So it’s a considerable load. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:55] \u003c/em>What McNaughton said is that in general to buy electric appliances is a little more expensive than gas ones, to run them is more expensive. They spend about $8,000 a month at their Oakland location on electricity, which is like 34 times higher than the average household in California. Oh my goodness. So it’s a considerable load. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:16] \u003c/em>That’s a lot of money every month, Azul, for electricity. I mean, what makes it worth it for him? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:16] \u003c/em>That’s a lot of money every month, Azul, for electricity. I mean, what makes it worth it for him? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:22] \u003c/em>Well, I think on one hand, you know, he said sustainability is like a big part of their business So there is value in sort of like a non numerical thing for them I think now it’s sort of liked baked in no pun intended into their business, right? Like they are an electric Restaurant and it’s part of like kind of the identity of their pizza \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:22] \u003c/em>Well, I think on one hand, you know, he said sustainability is like a big part of their business So there is value in sort of like a non numerical thing for them I think now it’s sort of liked baked in no pun intended into their business, right? Like they are an electric Restaurant and it’s part of like kind of the identity of their pizza \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:46] \u003c/em>And really, these electric ovens, I think, really are creating this kind of new wave of pizza making because they’re so powerful, because you can toggle both deck top and bottom heat. It actually, we can incorporate a fair amount of char, like a Neapolitan pizza, but actually slow down the bake time. And that incorporates a lot more texture into our high-hydration dough that, to me, is incredibly craveable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:46] \u003c/em>And really, these electric ovens, I think, really are creating this kind of new wave of pizza making because they’re so powerful, because you can toggle both deck top and bottom heat. It actually, we can incorporate a fair amount of char, like a Neapolitan pizza, but actually slow down the bake time. And that incorporates a lot more texture into our high-hydration dough that, to me, is incredibly craveable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:16] \u003c/em>Did you taste it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:16] \u003c/em>Did you taste it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:17] \u003c/em>I did. yeah, I mean flower waters. It’s good pizza. I don’t think that’s a controversial take McNaughton’s like a finalist for like the James Beard Awards before so \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:17] \u003c/em>I did. yeah, I mean flower waters. It’s good pizza. I don’t think that’s a controversial take McNaughton’s like a finalist for like the James Beard Awards before so \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:29] \u003c/em>Yeah, they’re doing pretty well. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:29] \u003c/em>Yeah, they’re doing pretty well. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:31] \u003c/em>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:31] \u003c/em>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:32] \u003c/em>So my name’s Azul, I’m a reporter at KQED. Did you know that flour and water was all electric? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:32] \u003c/em>So my name’s Azul, I’m a reporter at KQED. Did you know that flour and water was all electric? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:38] \u003c/em>I did not know that they were all electric. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:59] \u003c/em>We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, the health case for electric kitchens. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you here on the Bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:59] \u003c/em>We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, the health case for electric kitchens. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you here on the Bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:27] \u003c/em>I guess aside from the broader ecological benefits of going electric, what do experts say about the other benefits for restaurants going electric? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:38] \u003c/em>Just to like put a number on it, there’s a new study that actually came out this month that found that 70% of gas burning kitchens, so these are commercial kitchens that were studied, exceeded the recommended limits for nitrogen dioxide that’s like federal health standards. They also found, you know, like elevated levels of carbon dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:38] \u003c/em>Just to like put a number on it, there’s a new study that actually came out this month that found that 70% of gas burning kitchens, so these are commercial kitchens that were studied, exceeded the recommended limits for nitrogen dioxide that’s like federal health standards. They also found, you know, like elevated levels of carbon dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>You would never stand over the tailpipe of your car breathing in those pollutants, and yet people stand over a stove breathing the same pollutants day after day, meal after meal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>You would never stand over the tailpipe of your car breathing in those pollutants, and yet people stand over a stove breathing the same pollutants day after day, meal after meal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:13] \u003c/em>I talked to Rob Jackson, he’s an environmental scientist at Stanford University, and he talked about this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:18] \u003c/em>We know that the pollution that’s created by burning fossil fuels is harmful, and there’s no reason to do that now when cleaner, better technologies are available. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:28] \u003c/em>And then imagine if you’re a chef in a kitchen, you’re standing over that burner for eight hours a day. And I talked to some of the chefs, they said like, it’s less greasy, you have a little bit more control. Like one thing they said about induction is like, you’ll never have a pot of cream boil over because with an induction cooktop, you can just like set it at a number and it’ll just stay there. Whereas with like flame, the heat transfer, things just get hotter and hotter. There is like some push back against cooking with induction or electric. A lot of chefs, you know, have hesitation around changing their cooking practices. The California Restaurant Association, which is this trade association group for the California restaurant industry, in a commercial from 2019, they said like, what about like searing meat or charring vegetables? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:23] \u003c/em>Or cooking food in a wok over high intensity heat. All of that would go away. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:28] \u003c/em>Some of that could be due to the fact that induction is still catching up to where it needs to be in terms of technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:36] \u003c/em>Try doing three or 400 covers a night on an electric stove. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:42] \u003c/em>How you cook is very personal. There’s cultural practices, there’s how you learned in cooking school, all these things that go into it. So, while McNaughton promotes this move that he’s made very heavily, a lot of people have doubts about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:56] \u003c/em>Have there been any efforts at the local and statewide level to push more commercial kitchens to make this change?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:04] \u003c/em>There’s been like a specific push for commercial kitchens and there’s been a broader push just to get gas out of all buildings. So you can go back to like 2019 in Berkeley. Berkeley passed a ban on natural gas in new construction. And the city of Berkeley is leading the charge with the law that covers new construction. That got a lot of pushback from the California restaurant association that successfully defeated the, the band in the courts by arguing basically like Berkeley was overstepping its bounds. They were trying to regulate the efficiency of things when that’s the remit of the title. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:04] \u003c/em>There’s been like a specific push for commercial kitchens and there’s been a broader push just to get gas out of all buildings. So you can go back to like 2019 in Berkeley. Berkeley passed a ban on natural gas in new construction. And the city of Berkeley is leading the charge with the law that covers new construction. That got a lot of pushback from the California restaurant association that successfully defeated the, the band in the courts by arguing basically like Berkeley was overstepping its bounds. They were trying to regulate the efficiency of things when that’s the remit of the title. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newscaster: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:40] \u003c/em>New at 10 tonight, the City of Berkeley lost its latest legal battle. Today, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied Berkeley’s petition for the court to rehear the case after the ban was ruled illegal last year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:53] \u003c/em>There’s also efforts at the state level to incentivize kitchens specifically to go all electric. There’s rebates available through California utilities like PG&E for commercial kitchens to buy appliances. There’s these Chef Fluencers that is run by this group called the Building Decarbonization Coalition. And their jobs are basically to like preach the good word of induction and encourage people to adopt it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:22] \u003c/em>Yeah, there’s the practical piece of it of just making it easier, lowering the barriers for restaurants to get access to these things. But also there’s this norms piece of like really trying to get people in the restaurant industry to, I guess, see this as a thing that they could do that wouldn’t impact their food quality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:46] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, you know, when most people think of electric cooking, they think of those like janky electric coil stoves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:52] \u003c/em>Oh yeah, me too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:53] \u003c/em>But like that’s not what this is. This is like the technology has come a long way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:58] \u003c/em>I think that there’s some misconceptions about it. Oh my goodness, it’s not gonna achieve the same quality. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:06] \u003c/em>I spoke to Katie Chin. She’s a chef fluencer and a caterer based in Southern California. And she’s had her own journey with induction. Like when she first used it, she was like, oh no, like, you know, I’m a cater, I’m professional caterer. Like I gotta cook. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:25] \u003c/em>She told me this story about being stuck in Southern California traffic on the way to a catering gig and actually being thankful that there was induction at her client’s house.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:36] \u003c/em>Seeing is believing. So I was able to boil the water for, you know, 600 dumplings in a fraction of the time it would have taken for me to use a gas stove and heat up all that water. \u003cem>[00:13:45]\u003c/em>\u003cem>[9.1]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:36] \u003c/em>Seeing is believing. So I was able to boil the water for, you know, 600 dumplings in a fraction of the time it would have taken for me to use a gas stove and heat up all that water. \u003cem>[00:13:45]\u003c/em>\u003cem>[9.1]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:46] \u003c/em>She really says that people should try to keep an open mind.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:52] \u003c/em>And a lot of people associate like, well, how can you, how can get those great stir fries if you’re not like, you know how people flip the wok like this? I think the main stereotype is that, oh, it’s not gonna get hot enough. And I see no difference at all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:09] \u003c/em>I gotta say, Azul, when I think about our state fighting climate change, I don’t really think about commercial kitchens very much, but how much of a difference could it actually make if more commercial kitchens in the state address their emissions?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:26] \u003c/em>I think it comes down to this thing where it’s like, as long as there are stoves with a gas pipe leading to them, we’re going to keep burning gas in this state. And if California is going to truly like decarbonize and get off gas, then we need to start looking at our buildings and restaurants are this very entrenched use of natural gas. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:55] \u003c/em>Azul, this was such an interesting story. Thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us. Appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The vast majority of commercial kitchens in California — some 85% — rely on gas to power their appliances. But scientists say that will have to change if the state hopes to reach its goal of net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045. Bay Area food franchise Flour + Water is one of many local shops leading the charge away from gas appliances. In today’s episode, KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman visits an electric pizza kitchen to help us understand the benefits of electrification and what’s preventing more kitchens from making the switch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/2002089/heres-what-all-electric-bay-area-restaurants-have-learned-from-ditching-gas\">Here’s What All-Electric Bay Area Restaurants Have Learned From Ditching Gas\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Many think of California as a leader when it comes to fighting climate change. We’ve got this ambitious goal of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045. But there are a lot of things that get in the way of that. Like our reliance on cars and perhaps one less obvious reason, how we cook. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:32] \u003c/em>As long as there are stoves with a gas pipe leading to them, we’re going to keep burning gas in this state. And restaurants are this very entrenched use of natural gas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>85% of California restaurants use gas to power their appliances. And it turns out, electrifying restaurant kitchens could actually play a pretty big role in getting us closer to our climate goals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:04] \u003c/em>We know that the pollution that’s created by burning fossil fuels is harmful and there’s no reason to do that now when cleaner, better technologies are available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:14] \u003c/em>Today, the benefits of electrifying California’s restaurants and what it’s gonna take to get more of them on board. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>You know, we think of California as like this leader in climate change, right? We have more efficient fuel for our cars. We invest in transit and carpooling and all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:39] \u003c/em>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:44] \u003c/em>Buildings, and then restaurants in particular, are this one place where we’re really behind. Buildings are responsible for about a quarter of all of California’s greenhouse gas emissions and restaurants in our state use gas at a much higher rate than other states. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:03] \u003c/em>This is a sleeper issue. A lot of people don’t realize it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:07] \u003c/em>Brandy Seals is the Director of the Electrification for Health program at Stanford University. And they’re really looking at benefits of electrifying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brandy Seals: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:18] \u003c/em>So when you look at commercial spaces, kitchens, and food service, they have about five times the energy usage of a standard office. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:28] \u003c/em>She says that commercial kitchens really like punch above their weight. Because restaurants use gas, they’re also sort of cementing this demand for gas. So she says that if we’re gonna really address this issue of climate change, we need to start looking at buildings and specifically restaurants. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:48] \u003c/em>So it sounds like commercial kitchens are maybe an untapped space for electrification that I’m definitely not thinking about. But what are the barriers to actually making it happen and also making it more common? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:03] \u003c/em>Well, I think like, first off, just put yourself in the shoes of a restaurant owner, right? Restaurants run on extremely thin margins. You know, there’s a lot of turnover, like, you know, most restaurants don’t even make it a year, right. And in order to switch to electricity, that’s a big investment, right, most restaurants are going to come with gas hookups for your appliances. But in order to switch electric, you gotta get a new panel, you got to pay for new electric service. You gotta buy these appliances. Electricity, not cheap in California. I mean, we have the most expensive electricity in the Continental 48. There’s also not as much of a demand in the market. So it’s just kind of like this small niche thing that’s growing that is kind of still waiting to see its moment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:59] \u003c/em>So you visited a restaurant that actually went electric. Who did you meet and what did they say about the practical barriers that they faced? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:11] \u003c/em>Can we do a little tour? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:12] \u003c/em>Yeah, of course. So our pantry section or garmagé. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:16] \u003c/em>So I went to Flower and Water. They have a pizza shop in Oakland, but they’re part of this restaurant group. They’ve essentially committed to making all of their future restaurants electric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:29] \u003c/em>Machines, slushies, burners, fryers, everything here runs on electric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:35] \u003c/em>I talked to their CEO, Thomas McNaughton. He said basically, when you said like electric oven to him like 10 years ago, he was like, he thought of like an Easy Bake Oven, you know, like a toy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:45] \u003c/em>And I didn’t realize how evolved the technology really is. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:49] \u003c/em>But he said that changed around six years ago. He started seeing these electric ovens that were like really powerful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>And that kind of introduced us to the idea, saying, like, if this oven is so powerful, couldn’t we build our entire operation around electricity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:07] \u003c/em>He said that sustainability is like a really important value of theirs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:11] \u003c/em>Sustainability for us is not just where we buy our seafood from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:19] \u003c/em>In terms of like the challenges that he faced, he said that whether or not a space has the ability to like accommodate the electrical load that like an electric kitchen requires is a limiting factor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:36] \u003c/em>A lot of older properties we’re not able to look at. And so that’s one that can feel somewhat constricting at times. Problem solving is one of the most fascinating parts of the job of a chef or a restaurateur. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:51] \u003c/em>And that sounds kind of expensive, maybe? What was that process like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:55] \u003c/em>What McNaughton said is that in general to buy electric appliances is a little more expensive than gas ones, to run them is more expensive. They spend about $8,000 a month at their Oakland location on electricity, which is like 34 times higher than the average household in California. Oh my goodness. So it’s a considerable load. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:16] \u003c/em>That’s a lot of money every month, Azul, for electricity. I mean, what makes it worth it for him? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:22] \u003c/em>Well, I think on one hand, you know, he said sustainability is like a big part of their business So there is value in sort of like a non numerical thing for them I think now it’s sort of liked baked in no pun intended into their business, right? Like they are an electric Restaurant and it’s part of like kind of the identity of their pizza \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas McNaughton: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:46] \u003c/em>And really, these electric ovens, I think, really are creating this kind of new wave of pizza making because they’re so powerful, because you can toggle both deck top and bottom heat. It actually, we can incorporate a fair amount of char, like a Neapolitan pizza, but actually slow down the bake time. And that incorporates a lot more texture into our high-hydration dough that, to me, is incredibly craveable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:16] \u003c/em>Did you taste it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:17] \u003c/em>I did. yeah, I mean flower waters. It’s good pizza. I don’t think that’s a controversial take McNaughton’s like a finalist for like the James Beard Awards before so \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:29] \u003c/em>Yeah, they’re doing pretty well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:31] \u003c/em>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:32] \u003c/em>So my name’s Azul, I’m a reporter at KQED. Did you know that flour and water was all electric? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:38] \u003c/em>I did not know that they were all electric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:59] \u003c/em>We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, the health case for electric kitchens. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you here on the Bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:27] \u003c/em>I guess aside from the broader ecological benefits of going electric, what do experts say about the other benefits for restaurants going electric? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:38] \u003c/em>Just to like put a number on it, there’s a new study that actually came out this month that found that 70% of gas burning kitchens, so these are commercial kitchens that were studied, exceeded the recommended limits for nitrogen dioxide that’s like federal health standards. They also found, you know, like elevated levels of carbon dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>You would never stand over the tailpipe of your car breathing in those pollutants, and yet people stand over a stove breathing the same pollutants day after day, meal after meal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:13] \u003c/em>I talked to Rob Jackson, he’s an environmental scientist at Stanford University, and he talked about this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Jackson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:18] \u003c/em>We know that the pollution that’s created by burning fossil fuels is harmful, and there’s no reason to do that now when cleaner, better technologies are available. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:28] \u003c/em>And then imagine if you’re a chef in a kitchen, you’re standing over that burner for eight hours a day. And I talked to some of the chefs, they said like, it’s less greasy, you have a little bit more control. Like one thing they said about induction is like, you’ll never have a pot of cream boil over because with an induction cooktop, you can just like set it at a number and it’ll just stay there. Whereas with like flame, the heat transfer, things just get hotter and hotter. There is like some push back against cooking with induction or electric. A lot of chefs, you know, have hesitation around changing their cooking practices. The California Restaurant Association, which is this trade association group for the California restaurant industry, in a commercial from 2019, they said like, what about like searing meat or charring vegetables? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:23] \u003c/em>Or cooking food in a wok over high intensity heat. All of that would go away. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:28] \u003c/em>Some of that could be due to the fact that induction is still catching up to where it needs to be in terms of technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Commerical: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:36] \u003c/em>Try doing three or 400 covers a night on an electric stove. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:42] \u003c/em>How you cook is very personal. There’s cultural practices, there’s how you learned in cooking school, all these things that go into it. So, while McNaughton promotes this move that he’s made very heavily, a lot of people have doubts about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:56] \u003c/em>Have there been any efforts at the local and statewide level to push more commercial kitchens to make this change?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:04] \u003c/em>There’s been like a specific push for commercial kitchens and there’s been a broader push just to get gas out of all buildings. So you can go back to like 2019 in Berkeley. Berkeley passed a ban on natural gas in new construction. And the city of Berkeley is leading the charge with the law that covers new construction. That got a lot of pushback from the California restaurant association that successfully defeated the, the band in the courts by arguing basically like Berkeley was overstepping its bounds. They were trying to regulate the efficiency of things when that’s the remit of the title. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newscaster: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:40] \u003c/em>New at 10 tonight, the City of Berkeley lost its latest legal battle. Today, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied Berkeley’s petition for the court to rehear the case after the ban was ruled illegal last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:53] \u003c/em>There’s also efforts at the state level to incentivize kitchens specifically to go all electric. There’s rebates available through California utilities like PG&E for commercial kitchens to buy appliances. There’s these Chef Fluencers that is run by this group called the Building Decarbonization Coalition. And their jobs are basically to like preach the good word of induction and encourage people to adopt it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:22] \u003c/em>Yeah, there’s the practical piece of it of just making it easier, lowering the barriers for restaurants to get access to these things. But also there’s this norms piece of like really trying to get people in the restaurant industry to, I guess, see this as a thing that they could do that wouldn’t impact their food quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:46] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, you know, when most people think of electric cooking, they think of those like janky electric coil stoves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:52] \u003c/em>Oh yeah, me too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:53] \u003c/em>But like that’s not what this is. This is like the technology has come a long way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:58] \u003c/em>I think that there’s some misconceptions about it. Oh my goodness, it’s not gonna achieve the same quality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:06] \u003c/em>I spoke to Katie Chin. She’s a chef fluencer and a caterer based in Southern California. And she’s had her own journey with induction. Like when she first used it, she was like, oh no, like, you know, I’m a cater, I’m professional caterer. Like I gotta cook. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:22] \u003c/em>I had never cooked on one and it scared me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:25] \u003c/em>She told me this story about being stuck in Southern California traffic on the way to a catering gig and actually being thankful that there was induction at her client’s house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:36] \u003c/em>Seeing is believing. So I was able to boil the water for, you know, 600 dumplings in a fraction of the time it would have taken for me to use a gas stove and heat up all that water. \u003cem>[00:13:45]\u003c/em>\u003cem>[9.1]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:46] \u003c/em>She really says that people should try to keep an open mind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Chin: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:52] \u003c/em>And a lot of people associate like, well, how can you, how can get those great stir fries if you’re not like, you know how people flip the wok like this? I think the main stereotype is that, oh, it’s not gonna get hot enough. And I see no difference at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:09] \u003c/em>I gotta say, Azul, when I think about our state fighting climate change, I don’t really think about commercial kitchens very much, but how much of a difference could it actually make if more commercial kitchens in the state address their emissions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:26] \u003c/em>I think it comes down to this thing where it’s like, as long as there are stoves with a gas pipe leading to them, we’re going to keep burning gas in this state. And if California is going to truly like decarbonize and get off gas, then we need to start looking at our buildings and restaurants are this very entrenched use of natural gas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:55] \u003c/em>Azul, this was such an interesting story. Thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us. Appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:01] \u003c/em>You’re welcome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series explores what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We say it without thinking: I love that song, I love this city, I love you. But when researchers try to pin love down, they find a panoply of meanings. Love is a biological drive, a psychological attachment, a practice expressed through countless small choices and a cultural story. UC Berkeley psychology professor Dacher Keltner argues that love serves an even more fundamental purpose: It helps keep human beings alive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming an almost reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone,” Dacher says. “Strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy.” We talk to Keltner about what we mean when we talk about love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Dacher Keltner and his work \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/dacher-keltner\">here\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-science-of-happiness/id1340505607\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Dacher Keltner, professor of psychology and founding faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center, UC Berkeley\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s tough to define love. As a researcher, do you have a definition for it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>What I would say is that it’s a brief feeling that we have about things or people that we feel devoted to, that we want to sacrifice to, and that we feel uniquely connected to. Science is making progress in understanding the love we feel for romantic partners, sexual partners, friends, family members, strangers, and nature. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And is it a different kind of love that we’re feeling? Is something different lighting up if, say, it’s a tree or a whale or our lover or our husband?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And when I look at my dog, I definitely feel that big, like, swirl of oxytocin when he looks back at me. Is it an emotion that I’m feeling? Is it a feeling that you’re doing an action? What exactly is love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you say, “I love my brother,” or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Of the most sophisticated literature on this, one [about] is trauma. We know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think it says about humans as a species that we can have such a range of different kinds of love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Ten years? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If we lose someone that we really care about, what do we know about the process of grief? What does that tell us about love?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The impetus for this show actually came, I was hosting for him, and we did an episode on a writer from the L.A. Times was asking, he was so heartbroken over a lost love that he could not function, and he had read all of the self-help books, trying to get himself back on track, and he just couldn’t, he couldn’t function. And so he found that studying the neuroscience of grief actually helped him make sense of why he was so lost. And so my question to you is, is it helpful, the impetus like I said of the show to kind of look at love and relationship, sex and dating through a scientific lens, what does science give us in terms of understanding something that in so many ways is kind of unknowable? It’s something that we feel that’s maybe captured better in mythology or poetry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I know that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Has studying it for you helped you love more, or are there times when you’re in the lab going, “This is deadening it for me”? What’s in your own experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think that love is just humanly universal, the way that we experience it, or is it culturally impacted, or does culture play a big role on how we experience and how we love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>How old is your daughter? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Seven. I’m hoping we figure it out before she turns 16. That’s deeply, deeply my hope. It’s probably ignorance, but I do not want her coming to me and being like “Claude and me are just, you know, getting up in there.” In this moment where there’s like so much anxiety and depression, unfortunately, and mental health issues, self-love, what do we know about self-love and how do we love ourselves better? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I almost tear up at the question because something has happened to this young generation compared to what I was like when I was 20. You know, they are smarter and working hard and more pressured and worried about the environment and worried about AI. I mean, they’re taking on a lot on their shoulders and facing a very tricky economy. And despite all of these strengths that they have, they’re harder on themselves, more critical, and in extreme cases, more self-loathing as you see in them and hate. And the best literature on that is self-compassion, you know. And the idea there is you take this fundamental form of love, of compassion, just feeling a devotion to somebody else’s wellbeing, and then you orient it to yourself, you know. And you do it through, sort of, practices of, sort of, reminding yourself of good things. You do it by remembering what your friends say about you that’s supportive, or you even put your hand on your chest and sort of calm down, all shown in science to kind of reduce stress and anxiety. And you know, we need to– when you mix together the pressure and anxiety of youth, and they’re turning away from dating and long-term commitments. Marriage rates have dropped 10%. It’s remarkable, right? And then they are distrusting of long-term relationships often. We’ve got a crisis coming, right, that we’ve got to attend to and love is a good way to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is it doesn’t have to be like, you need to find your person or the ultimate tomorrow. It’s like literally, like you said, putting a hand over your heart, like, “How can I be a friend to myself today?” Looking at people in the eye, maybe not being so buried in our phones. Anything else you’d wanna add to the audience in terms of how tomorrow we might live in a world that has more love in it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher, thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome, Lesley. It’s been a really wonderful conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We say it without thinking: I love that song, I love this city, I love you. But when researchers try to pin love down, they find a panoply of meanings. Love is a biological drive, a psychological attachment, a practice expressed through countless small choices and a cultural story. UC Berkeley psychology professor Dacher Keltner argues that love serves an even more fundamental purpose: It helps keep human beings alive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We say it without thinking: I love that song, I love this city, I love you. But when researchers try to pin love down, they find a panoply of meanings. Love is a biological drive, a psychological attachment, a practice expressed through countless small choices and a cultural story. UC Berkeley psychology professor Dacher Keltner argues that love serves an even more fundamental purpose: It helps keep human beings alive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming an almost reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone,” Dacher says. “Strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy.” We talk to Keltner about what we mean when we talk about love. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming an almost reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone,” Dacher says. “Strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy.” We talk to Keltner about what we mean when we talk about love. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Learn more about Dacher Keltner and his work \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/dacher-keltner\">here\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-science-of-happiness/id1340505607\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Learn more about Dacher Keltner and his work \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/dacher-keltner\">here\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-science-of-happiness/id1340505607\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s tough to define love. As a researcher, do you have a definition for it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>What I would say is that it’s a brief feeling that we have about things or people that we feel devoted to, that we want to sacrifice to, and that we feel uniquely connected to. Science is making progress in understanding the love we feel for romantic partners, sexual partners, friends, family members, strangers, and nature. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>What I would say is that it’s a brief feeling that we have about things or people that we feel devoted to, that we want to sacrifice to, and that we feel uniquely connected to. Science is making progress in understanding the love we feel for romantic partners, sexual partners, friends, family members, strangers, and nature. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And is it a different kind of love that we’re feeling? Is something different lighting up if, say, it’s a tree or a whale or our lover or our husband?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And is it a different kind of love that we’re feeling? Is something different lighting up if, say, it’s a tree or a whale or our lover or our husband?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And when I look at my dog, I definitely feel that big, like, swirl of oxytocin when he looks back at me. Is it an emotion that I’m feeling? Is it a feeling that you’re doing an action? What exactly is love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And when I look at my dog, I definitely feel that big, like, swirl of oxytocin when he looks back at me. Is it an emotion that I’m feeling? Is it a feeling that you’re doing an action? What exactly is love? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you say, “I love my brother,” or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you say, “I love my brother,” or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Of the most sophisticated literature on this, one [about] is trauma. We know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Of the most sophisticated literature on this, one [about] is trauma. We know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think it says about humans as a species that we can have such a range of different kinds of love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think it says about humans as a species that we can have such a range of different kinds of love? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Ten years? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Ten years? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If we lose someone that we really care about, what do we know about the process of grief? What does that tell us about love?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The impetus for this show actually came, I was hosting for him, and we did an episode on a writer from the L.A. Times was asking, he was so heartbroken over a lost love that he could not function, and he had read all of the self-help books, trying to get himself back on track, and he just couldn’t, he couldn’t function. And so he found that studying the neuroscience of grief actually helped him make sense of why he was so lost. And so my question to you is, is it helpful, the impetus like I said of the show to kind of look at love and relationship, sex and dating through a scientific lens, what does science give us in terms of understanding something that in so many ways is kind of unknowable? It’s something that we feel that’s maybe captured better in mythology or poetry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The impetus for this show actually came, I was hosting for him, and we did an episode on a writer from the L.A. Times was asking, he was so heartbroken over a lost love that he could not function, and he had read all of the self-help books, trying to get himself back on track, and he just couldn’t, he couldn’t function. And so he found that studying the neuroscience of grief actually helped him make sense of why he was so lost. And so my question to you is, is it helpful, the impetus like I said of the show to kind of look at love and relationship, sex and dating through a scientific lens, what does science give us in terms of understanding something that in so many ways is kind of unknowable? It’s something that we feel that’s maybe captured better in mythology or poetry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Has studying it for you helped you love more, or are there times when you’re in the lab going, “This is deadening it for me”? What’s in your own experience? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think that love is just humanly universal, the way that we experience it, or is it culturally impacted, or does culture play a big role on how we experience and how we love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>How old is your daughter? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Seven. I’m hoping we figure it out before she turns 16. That’s deeply, deeply my hope. It’s probably ignorance, but I do not want her coming to me and being like “Claude and me are just, you know, getting up in there.” In this moment where there’s like so much anxiety and depression, unfortunately, and mental health issues, self-love, what do we know about self-love and how do we love ourselves better? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I almost tear up at the question because something has happened to this young generation compared to what I was like when I was 20. You know, they are smarter and working hard and more pressured and worried about the environment and worried about AI. I mean, they’re taking on a lot on their shoulders and facing a very tricky economy. And despite all of these strengths that they have, they’re harder on themselves, more critical, and in extreme cases, more self-loathing as you see in them and hate. And the best literature on that is self-compassion, you know. And the idea there is you take this fundamental form of love, of compassion, just feeling a devotion to somebody else’s wellbeing, and then you orient it to yourself, you know. And you do it through, sort of, practices of, sort of, reminding yourself of good things. You do it by remembering what your friends say about you that’s supportive, or you even put your hand on your chest and sort of calm down, all shown in science to kind of reduce stress and anxiety. And you know, we need to– when you mix together the pressure and anxiety of youth, and they’re turning away from dating and long-term commitments. Marriage rates have dropped 10%. It’s remarkable, right? And then they are distrusting of long-term relationships often. We’ve got a crisis coming, right, that we’ve got to attend to and love is a good way to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is it doesn’t have to be like, you need to find your person or the ultimate tomorrow. It’s like literally, like you said, putting a hand over your heart, like, “How can I be a friend to myself today?” Looking at people in the eye, maybe not being so buried in our phones. Anything else you’d wanna add to the audience in terms of how tomorrow we might live in a world that has more love in it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher, thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome, Lesley. It’s been a really wonderful conversation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Can science decode love without draining it of its mystery? UC Berkeley psychologist Dacher Keltner says understanding how love works can help us cultivate more intimacy. \n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series explores what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We say it without thinking: I love that song, I love this city, I love you. But when researchers try to pin love down, they find a panoply of meanings. Love is a biological drive, a psychological attachment, a practice expressed through countless small choices and a cultural story. UC Berkeley psychology professor Dacher Keltner argues that love serves an even more fundamental purpose: It helps keep human beings alive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming an almost reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone,” Dacher says. “Strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy.” We talk to Keltner about what we mean when we talk about love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Dacher Keltner and his work \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/dacher-keltner\">here\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-science-of-happiness/id1340505607\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Dacher Keltner, professor of psychology and founding faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center, UC Berkeley\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s tough to define love. As a researcher, do you have a definition for it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>What I would say is that it’s a brief feeling that we have about things or people that we feel devoted to, that we want to sacrifice to, and that we feel uniquely connected to. Science is making progress in understanding the love we feel for romantic partners, sexual partners, friends, family members, strangers, and nature. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And is it a different kind of love that we’re feeling? Is something different lighting up if, say, it’s a tree or a whale or our lover or our husband?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And when I look at my dog, I definitely feel that big, like, swirl of oxytocin when he looks back at me. Is it an emotion that I’m feeling? Is it a feeling that you’re doing an action? What exactly is love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you say, “I love my brother,” or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Of the most sophisticated literature on this, one [about] is trauma. We know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think it says about humans as a species that we can have such a range of different kinds of love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Ten years? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If we lose someone that we really care about, what do we know about the process of grief? What does that tell us about love?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The impetus for this show actually came, I was hosting for him, and we did an episode on a writer from the L.A. Times was asking, he was so heartbroken over a lost love that he could not function, and he had read all of the self-help books, trying to get himself back on track, and he just couldn’t, he couldn’t function. And so he found that studying the neuroscience of grief actually helped him make sense of why he was so lost. And so my question to you is, is it helpful, the impetus like I said of the show to kind of look at love and relationship, sex and dating through a scientific lens, what does science give us in terms of understanding something that in so many ways is kind of unknowable? It’s something that we feel that’s maybe captured better in mythology or poetry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I know that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Has studying it for you helped you love more, or are there times when you’re in the lab going, “This is deadening it for me”? What’s in your own experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think that love is just humanly universal, the way that we experience it, or is it culturally impacted, or does culture play a big role on how we experience and how we love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>We don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>How old is your daughter? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Seven. I’m hoping we figure it out before she turns 16. That’s deeply, deeply my hope. It’s probably ignorance, but I do not want her coming to me and being like “Claude and me are just, you know, getting up in there.” In this moment where there’s like so much anxiety and depression, unfortunately, and mental health issues, self-love, what do we know about self-love and how do we love ourselves better? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I almost tear up at the question because something has happened to this young generation compared to what I was like when I was 20. You know, they are smarter and working hard and more pressured and worried about the environment and worried about AI. I mean, they’re taking on a lot on their shoulders and facing a very tricky economy. And despite all of these strengths that they have, they’re harder on themselves, more critical, and in extreme cases, more self-loathing as you see in them and hate. And the best literature on that is self-compassion, you know. And the idea there is you take this fundamental form of love, of compassion, just feeling a devotion to somebody else’s wellbeing, and then you orient it to yourself, you know. And you do it through, sort of, practices of, sort of, reminding yourself of good things. You do it by remembering what your friends say about you that’s supportive, or you even put your hand on your chest and sort of calm down, all shown in science to kind of reduce stress and anxiety. And you know, we need to– when you mix together the pressure and anxiety of youth, and they’re turning away from dating and long-term commitments. Marriage rates have dropped 10%. It’s remarkable, right? And then they are distrusting of long-term relationships often. We’ve got a crisis coming, right, that we’ve got to attend to and love is a good way to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is it doesn’t have to be like, you need to find your person or the ultimate tomorrow. It’s like literally, like you said, putting a hand over your heart, like, “How can I be a friend to myself today?” Looking at people in the eye, maybe not being so buried in our phones. Anything else you’d wanna add to the audience in terms of how tomorrow we might live in a world that has more love in it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher, thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome, Lesley. It’s been a really wonderful conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity,” said Mónica Guzmán, host of the podcast “A Braver Way.” “Because if it’s not you who talks to that person, and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who’s going to do it?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll talk to Guzmán about how to stay curious even when you hate your lover’s politics — and how to coexist peacefully without surrendering your own convictions\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán,\u003c/strong> host, “\u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/abraverway/\">A Braver Way\u003c/a>” podcast; author, “I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Polarization is present in your own family. Your parents are enthusiastic Trump supporters. You are a liberal journalist from Seattle who voted for Joe Biden. Do you all avoid politics? Or how do you navigate those conversations?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you try to avoid certain topics or do you find that you can find common ground?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I imagine you’re not living with your parents anymore. You’re not with them 24 hours a day, like you may be with a partner. So, do you think it’s different for those who are navigating this inside a romantic relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal of those conversations? Are you trying to sway someone who has a deeply different view? Is that even possible in this moment? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I know a couple who’s navigating this. The guy is very right, and the woman is quite left. One thing that he says is so challenging is that their social media feeds are giving them very different facts. How does a couple have a responsible, empathetic conversation if they don’t share the same information on the topic? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If I am highly convinced that I know something about this issue and I’m not going to change, is it worth having a conversation about that issue with my partner?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you have advice for folks if they want to have a conversation that they know is going to be hard? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You’ve interviewed a married couple, one is a committed liberal, one is committed conservative. What did you learn from them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If folks are not in a marriage, but they’re just dating, do you think people should filter for politics in this moment because things are so divided?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity,” said Mónica Guzmán, host of the podcast “A Braver Way.” “Because if it’s not you who talks to that person, and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who’s going to do it?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll talk to Guzmán about how to stay curious even when you hate your lover’s politics — and how to coexist peacefully without surrendering your own convictions\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán,\u003c/strong> host, “\u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/abraverway/\">A Braver Way\u003c/a>” podcast; author, “I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times”\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Polarization is present in your own family. Your parents are enthusiastic Trump supporters. You are a liberal journalist from Seattle who voted for Joe Biden. Do you all avoid politics? Or how do you navigate those conversations?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I imagine you’re not living with your parents anymore. You’re not with them 24 hours a day, like you may be with a partner. So, do you think it’s different for those who are navigating this inside a romantic relationship?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal of those conversations? Are you trying to sway someone who has a deeply different view? Is that even possible in this moment? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I know a couple who’s navigating this. The guy is very right, and the woman is quite left. One thing that he says is so challenging is that their social media feeds are giving them very different facts. How does a couple have a responsible, empathetic conversation if they don’t share the same information on the topic? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If I am highly convinced that I know something about this issue and I’m not going to change, is it worth having a conversation about that issue with my partner?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You’ve interviewed a married couple, one is a committed liberal, one is committed conservative. What did you learn from them?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You’ve interviewed a married couple, one is a committed liberal, one is committed conservative. What did you learn from them?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If folks are not in a marriage, but they’re just dating, do you think people should filter for politics in this moment because things are so divided?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If folks are not in a marriage, but they’re just dating, do you think people should filter for politics in this moment because things are so divided?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Politics isn’t just pulling the country apart — it’s unsettling our most intimate relationships. Nearly half of Americans say they wouldn’t date someone who doesn’t share their political views. But what happens if you’re already in love, and politics becomes a fault line in your relationship? Can love make space for views you find impossible to accept?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity,” said Mónica Guzmán, host of the podcast “A Braver Way.” “Because if it’s not you who talks to that person, and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who’s going to do it?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll talk to Guzmán about how to stay curious even when you hate your lover’s politics — and how to coexist peacefully without surrendering your own convictions\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán,\u003c/strong> host, “\u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/abraverway/\">A Braver Way\u003c/a>” podcast; author, “I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Polarization is present in your own family. Your parents are enthusiastic Trump supporters. You are a liberal journalist from Seattle who voted for Joe Biden. Do you all avoid politics? Or how do you navigate those conversations?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Earlier on, it was a bit awkward. We didn’t know how to pick it up, but we’re a really unfiltered family. So as soon as we became citizens, because we’re Mexican immigrants, back in the year 2000, it became clear my parents were going to the right and me and my brother were going to the left. The volume at restaurants, when Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow came up, it just went up. We would just fill the car, front seat versus back seat. But it got really tense after the 2016 election. That’s when we wondered: is the heat from the friction between our perspectives going to burn something, or is it going to cook something? The lessons we learned, trying to keep things to a simmer, going through rupture and repair cycles, trying to be honest with each other even while we let the other person be honest with us, boy, that was hard, but it taught us a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you try to avoid certain topics or do you find that you can find common ground?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>These days we talk about it all. There really is not much that we’re not able to discuss. To give you an example, my mother was a pro-life activist who went to the march on Washington, and I am decidedly pro-choice. So, the conversations would often include tears, her not believing that her own daughter could think these things. But we’re also able to have the most constructive conversations on abortion. The common ground we found is lots of people on both sides of this issue want fewer unwanted pregnancies. Okay, what can we do as a culture and as a society? You can get to some pretty constructive, incredible nuances of these issues and understand that both of us care deeply about what’s going on in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I imagine you’re not living with your parents anymore. You’re not with them 24 hours a day, like you may be with a partner. So, do you think it’s different for those who are navigating this inside a romantic relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Absolutely, when you are living with them all the time, everything changes. I’ve heard from couples where one of them comes into the room, and they’re watching Fox News, or they’re watching MSNBC, you’re already triggered by something. And then different partners will have different ideas about whether or not to talk about politics. The problem is if politics is deeply meaningful to one or both partners, not talking about politics is not talking about me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal of those conversations? Are you trying to sway someone who has a deeply different view? Is that even possible in this moment? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>In a committed romantic relationship, you want to stay connected. You want to love and support your partner. So the goal has to include understanding. The good thing about being in a relationship is you’ve already built up enough trust to be able to be honest about how you feel. A difference in ideas can be an amazing opportunity to strengthen your connection. But it’s also a big challenge because it’s difficult to stay curious when the other person believes something you find obscene, that you find wild. And because of your relationship, your expectations get in the way of that goal of understanding to maintain connection. You’re going to say, “How could my own husband, how could my own wife, how could my own partner believe something like this?” That’s all going to make you want to run away from a conversation that could be really fascinating if you go ahead and have it. It’s through those clashes and diverse opinions within the trust of a relationship that you can learn so much about them and so much about you. One of the most productive questions that you ask across a divide, especially if it’s a values-based difference, is not, “Why don’t you care about this thing that I care about?” But rather, “What do you care about more?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I know a couple who’s navigating this. The guy is very right, and the woman is quite left. One thing that he says is so challenging is that their social media feeds are giving them very different facts. How does a couple have a responsible, empathetic conversation if they don’t share the same information on the topic? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The way we do that is we follow each other’s threads without judgment. I know how difficult that can be because if you think that your partner is trusting sources that are bogus, all you want to do is tell them they’re wrong, the source is wrong, and that you just can’t have the conversation unless they agree with you. You love your partner, and your partner trusts this source. Why? Get curious about that and let that curiosity become a nonjudgmental accompaniment, and ask your partner, “Can you walk me through the source you see? Can you show me the newsletter?” And then listen and watch and ask questions that allow them to be open with you. Do not criticize the source until you fully understand what it’s all about. And then afterward say, “Can I walk you through my source and tell you why I trust them?” So much about the sources that we believe is about what they call up in us. Some sources reflect people’s concerns better than others. I think that’s the key. So even if somebody who disagrees is like, “There’s nothing factual there. There’s a lot of sensationalism.” And often that’s true. It’s still worth noting when a source tugs on something that matters to somebody, and it makes them gravitate to those voices. We need to understand that and pick up on that. Once you do that and people feel heard across that divide, then you can start a more persuasive conversation. I have received your source nonjudgmentally. Maybe you’ve received mine. Now can we talk about verification? Can we talk about substance? Can we talk about why I don’t trust your source? That conversation is better had after you understand why they trust theirs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If I am highly convinced that I know something about this issue and I’m not going to change, is it worth having a conversation about that issue with my partner?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>The best way for me to be heard on my convictions is to demonstrate to the other person that I can hear theirs. The trick is not to treat it as a strategy. I’m going to fake listen to them nonjudgmentally until they give me the time of day, and then I’m going to steamroll them and tell them how wrong they are. No. These conversations can be transformative. You are convicted; that’s great. It’s tough to be curious. It’s tough to be open, but again, how can anybody give you that gift if you can’t give it to anybody else? Also, there is nothing about receiving somebody’s opposing conviction that threatens yours. Nothing. There is no such thing as someone changing your mind with a flip of a switch unless your mind is already fertile ground to be changed on that thing. So if your convictions are really deep, what do you have to worry about? All you’re doing is listening to somebody else. And by the way, in the context of a relationship, you’re listening to someone you love. And we all know how wonderful it feels to be heard by someone we love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you have advice for folks if they want to have a conversation that they know is going to be hard? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>One big thing is to understand that you don’t need to have hard conversations all at once, and that it’s nice when life flows in through your conversation. So there’s been some research that conversations in the car can be really productive. You’re not looking at each other like a showdown. You’re looking straight ahead. You’re next to each other. Also, if you’re sitting down, I like going to coffee shops and looking for seats that are next to each other but angled 45 degrees toward each other. This is amazing because it allows you to look at your partner and also look away to take a break. This helps calm your nervous system to get enough fuel for some of those hard moments. And then finally, you don’t have to have it out all at once. Come back to it later. Let what they said sit in your mind and let yourself process that. It’s incredible what that does. Sometimes if we try to do it all in one shot, we’ve got so many emotions that they run away with us. Let the pressure valve do its work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is staying curious in any way, shape, or form letting go of protecting, say, another group? I can imagine someone being convicted about a social justice issue or racial equality and that curiosity feels like they’re abandoning that group. Staying curious and being in conversation with someone who they see is against protecting that group could feel like that curiosity is dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you have a connection to someone who believes something you think is harmful, you have an opportunity because if it’s not you who talks to them and potentially helps them see things a different way, then who? Who’s going to do it? You have the relationship, you have the trust, you have opportunity. So I would actually flip that on its head. I think it is more dangerous not to be curious and not to engage someone who holds an idea you find to be harmful. There is so much harm in isolating ourselves into different communities that can’t talk to each other. That’s what’s ultimately the most harmful because if we’re not talking, we’re not persuading, we’re not reframing, we are not seeing things a different way. We’re just going to keep seeing things the way we like. And if we’re not listened to and can’t engage with people who are close to us and disagree with us, then we’re just going to continue to be heard by people who agree with us, which research shows radicalizes our opinions and makes us think that the whole world ought to believe what we believe. We all become more intolerant of different opinions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Research does show that we tend to exaggerate how extreme people on the other side actually are. Why do you think we have that tendency? Why do we do that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I like to say that whoever is underrepresented in your life will be overrepresented in your imagination. There is fear that has to do with this and stories that we hear in a very polarized media environment. A lot of the loudest voices and the most extreme stories are the ones that get told. So of course they take up a lot of space in our heads. Meanwhile, a lot of the conversations across divides that we witness on the news and in other places are high-octane showdowns meant to score points. You’ve probably seen the research too about how one side thinks the other is immoral and more vicious and crazy, stupid and evil. It’s completely unsurprising to me, given how we are trapped in this vicious cycle, that we are judging each other more while we’re engaging each other less. The research into the misperceptions, the perception gaps, the exaggerations is profound. Where are we getting our information? If we’re getting our information about people who disagree with us, only secondhand, there’s a good chance it’s a funhouse mirror over there. You have to make some space in your life to ask, “What am I missing?” It’s pretty tough to live so scared of everybody. It’s not fun. It’s not helping us. And it’s certainly not changing the world for the better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You’ve interviewed a married couple, one is a committed liberal, one is committed conservative. What did you learn from them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>This is Rick and Barbara. Rick is Republican, and Barbara is Democrat. In 2020, they went through a period where they could not talk to each other at all. Rick was going to vote for Trump. Barbara was just beside herself. It was too activating; it was too hard to be in the same room and have these conversations about these things that mattered so much to them. But they found another way. They wrote long letters to each other about how they felt and what was concerning them. That got them through that period, which I think was so cool. So they agreed that they would ask each other questions about what they believed. After a while, Barbara noticed that she was asking Rick a lot of questions, but Rick was not asking her a lot of questions. So, she confronted him and said, “Rick, what’s going on?” And Rick said, “Well, I already know why you believe what you believe.” She said, “Oh really? Prove it.” So they named an issue, and Rick goes, “Well, you believe that probably because of this and this and this.” And Barbara goes, “That’s right.” And then they went to the next issue. “Well, you believe it because of this.” And Barbara says, “That’s right!” They did this over and over again. The common reason turned out to mostly apply to Barbara, but Barbara said, “Rick, we’re married. I need you to hear those reasons from me. I need you to hear my personal reasons. Not the general trend or statistic. Can you please still ask me?” You still have to get it from each other. It’s these conversations that are the necessary piece. You need to be fully participating in those conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If folks are not in a marriage, but they’re just dating, do you think people should filter for politics in this moment because things are so divided?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>I consider myself a curious person. I like the world to get bigger and not smaller, at least in some areas of my life. So the question is, do you want that too? Because it can make you grow. The contrast is a beautiful thing at a time when so many people are running away and avoiding friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you might be compatible in many other ways, even if you’re not politically compatible. Running up to the midterms, it’s going to get hot. Do you have any advice for folks on how to navigate relationships with their friends, lover, or family that are on the other side of the aisle?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>If you are surprised by something they say, then take that as an invitation. You already have the relationship. And then instead of, “Whoa, really? That’s terrible, that sucks.” Say, “Whoa, really? Tell me more about that. How’d you come to that?” How did you come to believe what you believe is the most powerful question you can ask? Not, why do you believe what you believe? Why do you believe what you believe puts people on trial. How did you come to believe what you believe — asks people to take you on a tour. Create and generate the kind of understanding that could be a countercultural thing against the partisan messaging, sloganeering, exaggerating, manipulating that happens every campaign season in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all get a little more curious in the next month or so. Thank you so much, Mónica. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mónica Guzmán: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Mónica Guzmán is a journalist and host of the podcast, “A Braver Way.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "flu-season-early-2026-bay-area-where-to-find-flu-vaccine-near-me-safe-with-covid-shot",
"title": "Flu Season Has Arrived in the Bay Area Early This Year — Time to Get Your Flu Shot",
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"headTitle": "Flu Season Has Arrived in the Bay Area Early This Year — Time to Get Your Flu Shot | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>As the Bay Area’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091325/summer-covid-test-2026-wastewater-variants-isolation-contagious-xfg-san-francisco-bay-area-california\">summer COVID-19 wave\u003c/a> finally tapers down, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flu\">flu \u003c/a>season is here to take its place — and it’s early this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to data from Stanford University’s WastewaterSCAN project, which monitors viral levels in human sewage, seasonal onset for flu didn’t arrive until November 2025. But this year, the Bay Area has already officially hit the threshold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what to know about the Bay Area’s early 2026 flu season and when you should be getting vaccinated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s going on with flu this year?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1405\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-800x562.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1020x717.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1536x1079.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1920x1349.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I find a flu shot this month?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Common places to find a flu shot appointment, walk-in site or drive-thru flu shot:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vaccines.gov/find-vaccines/\">CDC’s Find Flu Vaccines tool\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your county’s public health department may also be offering flu shots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Places to get a free or low-cost flu shot in the Bay Area include:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://acphd.org/clinics/\">Alameda County Immunization Clinics\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-800x562.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1020x717.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1536x1079.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1920x1349.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Where can I find a flu shot this month?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I find a flu shot this month?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)",
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"Costco Pharmacy flu shots",
"Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vaccines.gov/find-vaccines/\">CDC’s Find Flu Vaccines tool\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"text": "Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?\u003c/h3>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Your county’s public health department may also be offering flu shots.\u003c/p>\n",
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"Alameda County Immunization Clinics"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://acphd.org/clinics/\">Alameda County Immunization Clinics\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"excerpt": "The COVID-19 summer wave may be slowly leaving the building, but it’s been holding open the door for flu season to walk right in.",
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"title": "Flu Season Has Arrived in the Bay Area Early This Year — Time to Get Your Flu Shot | KQED",
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"headline": "Flu Season Has Arrived in the Bay Area Early This Year — Time to Get Your Flu Shot",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>As the Bay Area’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091325/summer-covid-test-2026-wastewater-variants-isolation-contagious-xfg-san-francisco-bay-area-california\">summer COVID-19 wave\u003c/a> finally tapers down, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flu\">flu \u003c/a>season is here to take its place — and it’s early this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to data from Stanford University’s WastewaterSCAN project, which monitors viral levels in human sewage, seasonal onset for flu didn’t arrive until November 2025. But this year, the Bay Area has already officially hit the threshold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Doctors generally recommend that you get your flu vaccine \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines/vaccinations.html\">sometime in October\u003c/a>, so your body has maximum immunity as the flu starts rising. But this year, the early arrival of flu season — and the Bay Area’s first death from flu in San Francisco — has several counties urging residents to get their shot sooner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what to know about the Bay Area’s early 2026 flu season and when you should be getting vaccinated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s going on with flu this year?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>WastewaterSCAN’s Amanda Bidwell said that this past September, the team detected the presence of influenza in over 90% of samples from the Bay Area wastewater sites they monitored that month. Concentrations of flu in local human sewage were up almost 350% from August to September, Bidwell said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>UCSF’s lab is also diagnosing flu in its patients up to five times as much as it was a month ago, said Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at UCSF, in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1405\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12028314\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-800x562.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1020x717.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1536x1079.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/FluGetty-1920x1349.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A CVS in Huntington Park on Aug. 28, 2024. (Christina House/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Oct. 1, the San Francisco Department of Public Health announced the city’s first death from flu in a resident. Last winter, San Francisco didn’t see any flu deaths until January.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The early arrival of flu in California “also tracks with the earlier flu activity seen in the UK, Japan, and other countries in the Northern Hemisphere,” Chin-Hong said. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that the flu season will be worse this year, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu shot is updated every year for maximum efficacy against prevalent strains — and “We have well matched vaccines this year,” Chin-Hong said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If flu season is here early, should I be getting my flu shot sooner too?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The general consensus is: yes. “I will probably get my flu shot on the soonish side,” Chin-Hong said. “Definitely before Halloween, and probably not wait until November.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marin County’s former public health officer Matt Willis, now at Your Local Epidemiologist California, \u003ca href=\"https://yourlocalepidemiologistca.substack.com/p/early-flu-covid-19-peaks-and-a-record?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store-no-desktop&inbox=true&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app&triedRedirect=true\">wrote in his newsletter\u003c/a> that “Now is the time to get your flu shot, if you haven’t already,” since maximum protection from the vaccine takes around two weeks to build.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco health officials have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/news-san-francisco-department-of-public-health-encourages-vaccination-as-citys-first-influenza-death-is-confirmed\">urging residents to seek out their flu vaccine \u003c/a>since the agency announced the city’s first death from the disease. In a Thursday public advisory, the Santa Clara Public Health Department told residents that “Early flu activity means now is the time to protect your family against fall viruses” — including COVID-19. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new, updated 2026-27 COVID-19 shots are also now available, and it’s completely safe to get your flu vaccine and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> at the same time for convenience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Additionally, the public should be aware and cautious of rapidly spreading misinformation that questions the safety and efficacy of widely tested vaccinations that have protected us for years,” a Santa Clara County spokesperson said. “It’s important to get vaccine information from trusted messengers and qualified healthcare professionals, such as your local public health department.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As anyone who’s had the flu can attest, the virus is no joke. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/php/data-vis/2025-2026.html\">estimated \u003c/a>that last flu season, there were at least 32 million illnesses nationwide, 390,000 hospitalizations, and 24,000 deaths from the flu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The flu vaccine reduces your risk of severe illness and hospitalization. The virus can be especially dangerous for kids, and the CDC said that a 2022 study showed flu vaccination reduced children’s risk of severe, life-threatening influenza by 75%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I find a flu shot this month?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have health insurance, a flu shot is covered and available without extra cost, as a preventive service from your usual health care provider. It’s also available at most pharmacies (see below).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get your flu shot at the same time as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098931/where-can-i-find-new-updated-2026-27-covid-vaccine-near-me-moderna-pfizer-cvs-walgreens-safeway-vaccinations-health-insurance-cost\">your COVID-19 vaccine\u003c/a> — it’s completely safe to do so, and many people do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Common places to find a flu shot appointment, walk-in site or drive-thru flu shot:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vaccines.gov/find-vaccines/\">CDC’s Find Flu Vaccines tool\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/cold-and-flu/prevention#/prevention\">Kaiser Permanente flu shots (Northern California)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cvs.com/immunizations/flu\">CVS flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.walgreens.com/topic/pharmacy/seasonal-flu.jsp?ban=flu_fy21_influenzapage\">Walgreens flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.riteaid.com/pharmacy/scheduler\">Rite Aid flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.costco.com/Pharmacy/adult-immunization-program.html\">Costco Pharmacy flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.albertsons.com/pharmacy/pharmacy-services/immunizations.html\">Albertsons (Safeway) flu shots\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I get a flu shot if I don’t have health insurance?\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can get the vaccine free of charge from several Bay Area providers and community clinics if you don’t have insurance. (You can also \u003cem>technically \u003c/em>use these free services even if you do have insurance, but you may consider choosing to reserve these particular resources for those without coverage).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your county’s public health department may also be offering flu shots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Places to get a free or low-cost flu shot in the Bay Area include:\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcdcp.org/aitc/aitc-regular-prices-low-cost-or-free-vaccines/\">San Francisco Department of Public Health’s AITC clinic\u003c/a> (offers a pay-what-you-can option)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://cchealth.org/immunization/clinics.php#Uninsured\"> Contra Costa Public Health Immunization Clinic\u003c/a> (flu shots are $15 for adults over 19, but fees may be waived if you’re unable to pay)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://acphd.org/clinics/\">Alameda County Immunization Clinics\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "how-to-handle-group-conflict-without-tearing-people-apart",
"title": "How to Handle Group Conflict Without Tearing People Apart",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are living in divisive times. People are sorting themselves into political and ideological camps. Disagreements within communities, friend groups and families can quickly become a stark choice: you’re either with us or against us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how can groups fight without tearing each other apart? In her new book, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict,” facilitator Priya Parker explores how fighting with care can deepen the relationships we’re afraid of losing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We haven’t been taught to fight well,” Parker said. “We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Parker offers another possibility: staying in the room and seeing a conflict through to its resolution. “Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer,” Parker said. “It is beautiful on the other side.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to her about the strategies groups can employ when sparks fly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Priya Parker and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.priyaparker.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker,\u003c/strong> facilitator; strategic adviser; author, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your original book, “The Art of Gathering,” famously brought people together for really unique parties. Did some of them just go really bad? Why are you turning towards fighting?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There is so much conflict in gathering, and particularly in the planning of gatherings. “The Art of Fighting,” in a lot of ways, is my second book about connection. I am interested in connection. And so much of what I see is that we are more fragile as communities, in part because of our conflict aversion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Was part of your motivation, beyond tense wedding planning, what we’re seeing between neighbors and inside town halls that are blowing up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I am a facilitator, and during the summer of 2020, I was invited into a number of group and organizational reckonings. If you remember that summer, it was the summer Black Lives Matter and the first summer after the pandemic hit, there were a lot of reckonings inside of organizations. As a facilitator, my peers and I were brought in, and because people were in virtual work, a lot of those reckonings were inside little squares on Zoom. My work had always been in person. Even if people are facing each other and having a conversation they’d otherwise rather not have, you can use your body, if they run out of the room, you could chase them. But all of a sudden in the Zoom, you’re just hitting a little red button and anyone can leave. So, it was a really complex time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Avoiding conflict is no better than burning the house down, as you put it. Talk about that because you learned that lesson from a young age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>My parents both come from lineages — my mother is Indian, my father is white American — where when conflict arose, we kind of stuck our head in the sand, we’re ostriches. When my parents divorced when I was about nine years old, I and everyone around them was shocked because they never fought. And so I learned from a young age that there’s great loss also in avoidance and that human connection can be as threatened by unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And a fight can sometimes define what a group is about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We’re really living in a time of boundaries and canceling. Social media makes this a lot easier. We can ghost our way through conflict. Have we gotten a lot quicker to leave? And how can people move past those moments where you just want to step out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>The first thing, back up a little bit. Don’t start with a specific form in mind of what this group needs to be. First ask, what is the actual need of this group? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Friends, we’re friends. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It sounds like I just need to go dancing with these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>At some point, you may have to ask, is this the group that I thought it was? And maybe they become your fun group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are living in divisive times. People are sorting themselves into political and ideological camps. Disagreements within communities, friend groups and families can quickly become a stark choice: you’re either with us or against us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So how can groups fight without tearing each other apart? In her new book, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict,” facilitator Priya Parker explores how fighting with care can deepen the relationships we’re afraid of losing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We haven’t been taught to fight well,” Parker said. “We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Parker offers another possibility: staying in the room and seeing a conflict through to its resolution. “Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer,” Parker said. “It is beautiful on the other side.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We talk to her about the strategies groups can employ when sparks fly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Learn more about Priya Parker and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.priyaparker.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your original book, “The Art of Gathering,” famously brought people together for really unique parties. Did some of them just go really bad? Why are you turning towards fighting?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There is so much conflict in gathering, and particularly in the planning of gatherings. “The Art of Fighting,” in a lot of ways, is my second book about connection. I am interested in connection. And so much of what I see is that we are more fragile as communities, in part because of our conflict aversion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Was part of your motivation, beyond tense wedding planning, what we’re seeing between neighbors and inside town halls that are blowing up?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I am a facilitator, and during the summer of 2020, I was invited into a number of group and organizational reckonings. If you remember that summer, it was the summer Black Lives Matter and the first summer after the pandemic hit, there were a lot of reckonings inside of organizations. As a facilitator, my peers and I were brought in, and because people were in virtual work, a lot of those reckonings were inside little squares on Zoom. My work had always been in person. Even if people are facing each other and having a conversation they’d otherwise rather not have, you can use your body, if they run out of the room, you could chase them. But all of a sudden in the Zoom, you’re just hitting a little red button and anyone can leave. So, it was a really complex time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Avoiding conflict is no better than burning the house down, as you put it. Talk about that because you learned that lesson from a young age.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>My parents both come from lineages — my mother is Indian, my father is white American — where when conflict arose, we kind of stuck our head in the sand, we’re ostriches. When my parents divorced when I was about nine years old, I and everyone around them was shocked because they never fought. And so I learned from a young age that there’s great loss also in avoidance and that human connection can be as threatened by unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And a fight can sometimes define what a group is about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We’re really living in a time of boundaries and canceling. Social media makes this a lot easier. We can ghost our way through conflict. Have we gotten a lot quicker to leave? And how can people move past those moments where you just want to step out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>The first thing, back up a little bit. Don’t start with a specific form in mind of what this group needs to be. First ask, what is the actual need of this group? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It sounds like I just need to go dancing with these people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It sounds like I just need to go dancing with these people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>At some point, you may have to ask, is this the group that I thought it was? And maybe they become your fun group.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>At some point, you may have to ask, is this the group that I thought it was? And maybe they become your fun group.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are living in divisive times. People are sorting themselves into political and ideological camps. Disagreements within communities, friend groups and families can quickly become a stark choice: you’re either with us or against us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how can groups fight without tearing each other apart? In her new book, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict,” facilitator Priya Parker explores how fighting with care can deepen the relationships we’re afraid of losing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We haven’t been taught to fight well,” Parker said. “We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Parker offers another possibility: staying in the room and seeing a conflict through to its resolution. “Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer,” Parker said. “It is beautiful on the other side.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to her about the strategies groups can employ when sparks fly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Priya Parker and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.priyaparker.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker,\u003c/strong> facilitator; strategic adviser; author, “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your original book, “The Art of Gathering,” famously brought people together for really unique parties. Did some of them just go really bad? Why are you turning towards fighting?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There is so much conflict in gathering, and particularly in the planning of gatherings. “The Art of Fighting,” in a lot of ways, is my second book about connection. I am interested in connection. And so much of what I see is that we are more fragile as communities, in part because of our conflict aversion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Was part of your motivation, beyond tense wedding planning, what we’re seeing between neighbors and inside town halls that are blowing up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I am a facilitator, and during the summer of 2020, I was invited into a number of group and organizational reckonings. If you remember that summer, it was the summer Black Lives Matter and the first summer after the pandemic hit, there were a lot of reckonings inside of organizations. As a facilitator, my peers and I were brought in, and because people were in virtual work, a lot of those reckonings were inside little squares on Zoom. My work had always been in person. Even if people are facing each other and having a conversation they’d otherwise rather not have, you can use your body, if they run out of the room, you could chase them. But all of a sudden in the Zoom, you’re just hitting a little red button and anyone can leave. So, it was a really complex time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As I was watching and as I was part of many of these reckonings, I noticed that we haven’t been taught to fight well. We oscillate between avoidance and burning the house down. And as I was in many Zooms, and these organizations would agree with me, we often don’t have either the skills or the actual infrastructure to know how to have a healthy group fight. So I wanted to write a book that began to ask not how do you yell at strangers on the internet, but actually, how do we fight with those we want to belong to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Avoiding conflict is no better than burning the house down, as you put it. Talk about that because you learned that lesson from a young age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>My parents both come from lineages — my mother is Indian, my father is white American — where when conflict arose, we kind of stuck our head in the sand, we’re ostriches. When my parents divorced when I was about nine years old, I and everyone around them was shocked because they never fought. And so I learned from a young age that there’s great loss also in avoidance and that human connection can be as threatened by unhealthy peace as it is by unhealthy conflict.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And a fight can sometimes define what a group is about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>In fact, fights actually form groups. You can’t become a group without a storm, without a fight. There are four phases of a group formation and the first is form and the second is called storm, which is when a group has to decide it is worth making this a thing. It’s almost like couples have the DTR that define the relationship. Are we dating? Are you my boyfriend? Are you my girlfriend? Are we poly? Are we monogamous? It turns out, groups have to go through a similar phase. What are we, what are we about, who’s in charge? And when we are unwilling or unable or unskilled to have these crucial conversations about who we are and what we are doing around here, our groups end up dissipating. They never actually form.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We’re really living in a time of boundaries and canceling. Social media makes this a lot easier. We can ghost our way through conflict. Have we gotten a lot quicker to leave? And how can people move past those moments where you just want to step out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>We sure have. It’s easier to bounce than to bother. This is also uniquely part of being alive in the modern era, which is that we tend to, for better or for worse, choose our groups. We choose our friends, we choose our workplace, we choose our institutions of worship. It’s never been easier to leave, in part because we have so much choice. In our great-grandmother’s village, you didn’t have a lot of choice. There were not a lot of places to go. Even in traditional communities, you run into each other at the grocery store or at the market. You can’t avoid each other for that long. Yet in modern life, in part because of an abundance of choice and in part because we can hide from each other through our screens and text messages, it’s never been easier to not face, and yet it is keeping us really lonely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It seems like we need to practice because I am also very conflict-avoidant. It sounds terrifying to get my sword ready. Right after the election, I had friends who went in very different directions. It surprised me a lot. There is still a lot of tension in this group of friends, and we never talk about politics, but it’s creating a lot of distance between us. So, if I wanted to get everyone together to have these hard conversations, what are some of the infrastructure or tools you mentioned in the book? How would I do it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>The first thing, back up a little bit. Don’t start with a specific form in mind of what this group needs to be. First ask, what is the actual need of this group? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Friends, we’re friends. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Do you need to talk about this difference? And if so, how? The idea of bringing them all together at the table and talking about politics, that will probably go badly. I would start first by asking yourself, what is the actual need here? What are these people to me? Not all conflict avoidance is from fear. Some of it is from wisdom. In “The Art of Fighting,” I actually have a group of girlfriends who’ve been friends for 30 years; it sounds like your group a little bit. During the pandemic, they hopped on these Zoom happy hours and they realized very quickly that they were very far apart from each other — politically, socially, even perceptions of the pandemic. It threw a number of them into an existential crisis. Are these my people? Is this still my group? And so part of what I worked on with them is to go through a set of questions to decide whether to face or not. And then what is it that you’re facing? Questions like, can I continue to engage meaningfully? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have a longing for this group? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My hope with “The Art of Fighting” is not that it gives us better answers, but that it gives us better questions. Ask yourself, what are these people to me? Is it important to me to be in relationship with people who have different viewpoints from me, or is this a red line? It’s first a set of questions for oneself and then beginning to ask, well, do I think by saying something we’re going to alter one another? And if you still have longing for these people, part of my advice to you would be to actually talk less, have fun together, remember why you’re friends, go have a blast. Sometimes a community actually needs to talk less. What they actually need is a soccer game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It sounds like I just need to go dancing with these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>At some point, you may have to ask, is this the group that I thought it was? And maybe they become your fun group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just putting that title on it made my whole system align in a really good way. But let’s say there is a group conflict that really needs to be had, and I’m ready for it. We’ve defined it. What are some of the tools to use while you’re in that moment? How do you create a ritual or a space where a productive conversation can happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I had a mentor called Randa Slim, and she would always say that 90% of the success of what happens in a room happens before anyone arrives. First, engage in a period of what I call the pre-conflict resolution. When I work with a team or an organization, and they’re getting ready to come together for some kind of facing, one of the questions we ask is, are we having the right conversation? Are we having the right fight? What do you think is happening here? What is the purpose of this organization? What is a conversation you’re always having that feels like it is never getting resolved? And just really listening. Sometimes it’s good to have people have some reflection time, whether in a workbook or with a trusted person, so that they can actually sort out their ideas and feel some of their emotions before coming into the higher-stakes room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, once you’re actually in the room to set up, let people understand how it’s going to go, how long it is. Where are we going to be hosting this? Something as simple as not having it in a glass room where other people can see. Don’t have it at a restaurant where other people can hear. Some of these are very practical. Get the table out of the room if possible, which is sort of counterintuitive. Tables often block connection. Then also spend time preparing your own body. Conflict is physical, deeply physical, just not often in the way we think. Not necessarily between people, but in ourselves. So also beginning to prepare ourselves to be able to go into the room and hold healthy heat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the goal? At the end of the day, there’s probably still going to be differences. So, what are you trying to achieve in that space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>There’s a facilitator named Sethu Nair. She told me, you’re trying to create a space where people can actually safely say what they need to say. Now, what does that mean? I have an example in the book where I look at one of the first formative fights between the founders of Burning Man. They had gathered together in Marian Goodell’s dining room. This was in 1998. They had experienced a crisis the summer before. Someone had died. And as Goodell described, it was Mad Max out there on the Playa. And they came together and had to ask, can we create infrastructure and hierarchy if we are trying to also create utopia? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker:\u003c/strong> And the conversation that they were having was, what do we pay ourselves? The values of the group up until that point was they were all equal, so they should all make the same amount of money. And they started comparing rents, and that revealed differences. One lived in a more expensive area, two others were roommates, one had a rent control apartment. Goodell was sitting there clutching this yellow legal pad, and one of the founders said, “Well, everyone should make $30,000.” And she exclaimed, “That’s irrational!” And then she took a deep breath, and she spoke the dangerous truth. She said, “We shouldn’t all get paid the same.” And someone shot back, “How could you value yourself more than us?” Ouch. If she was willing to say it and they were willing to hold it, it expanded their geography of possibility, but it also could have gotten her kicked out. And so part of the infrastructure of a group fight is to make it safe enough for someone to speak their dangerous truth. And their dangerous truth may be, “It really hurt my feelings that you didn’t invite me to your wedding.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You talk about how we shouldn’t stop for the most offended person in the room. And you have a great example of this in your book. Talk about what happened in that workshop with 80 progressive leaders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>I was facilitating a workshop about community and gathering. I had just begun speaking. Everyone was in a circle. I was speaking about gathering and community. I was using the word tribe. And a person stepped forward and took a mic and said, “I take issue with your use of the word tribe. I’m indigenous. And you are appropriating the word tribe.” The room tenses up. I tense up. But I’m very practiced at this. I breathe. I put my feet on the ground. Again, I’m the facilitator. I have authority. I’m holding a mic. I’m in a position of privilege. I look at her, and I say, “Thank you. I will consider it. And I may not change how I’m speaking. Tribe is a sociological word. It’s a word that exists in many cultures. It’s a word that has existed in many contexts for thousands of years.” And then I looked, and everyone’s holding their breath. And I said, “Don’t let the room be defined by the most offended voice.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was brought in to help them expand their geography. Years later, some of the members from that moment still bring it up. One of them said to me, “You helped us get unstuck so that we could have wider conversations and not stop if someone is offended.” And let me be clear, I didn’t think the woman shouldn’t have said what she said. I think she should say it. It’s really important. It’s a very good point. I want it on the table. We are a worse group if it’s not on the table. These are core fights. And so I tried to make her feel felt. I gave air to her offense, and I didn’t let the room be defined by it. And we widened the scope of possible conversation that day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we do this, if we can learn how to do this [fighting] better, do you have a bigger goal? Do you think we can get through this divisiveness in our country?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Most people I know are in pain. Most people are lonely, even within their intimate partners. Every group fights. Every group I know, friend group, family group, has some mess inside. Part of the invitation is to first say this is a mess and learn to grow the relational longing to be in a mess with you, to grow our capacity for each other, to grow tolerance for each other, to grow joy with each other because the only way out is actually with one another. It is beautiful on the other side. Friends who fight and come through it are actually closer. It’s actually quite intimate to admit hurt. It’s quite intimate to call someone out with care and, in a way, to protect the group and figure out who we are and what we want to do around here. Once you get through it, you’re much more sturdy. You’re much more resilient. This isn’t a moment to keep walking away from each other. We’re going to be incredibly lonely and incredibly bored. It’s so beautiful to be with each other, but part of the art of fighting is to bring in warmth and humor and joy and not just have this serious, angry side over here and this fun, playful side over there. It’s actually all together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of my favorite examples in the book is a church. A woman called me up saying her church is going through a reckoning like so many churches during the summer of 2020, in part because they hadn’t worshiped together. Their core function to come together every Sunday, to be together in communion was now on a live stream. She said, “We’ve been missing each other, both literally, but also liturgically.” They were tearing each other up about all sorts of stuff like Christianity and Black Lives Matter. And this was a majority white church. She said, “It feels exhausting trying to bring people together, to have these really hard conversations. Everyone’s exhausted.” And someone said, “What if instead we threw a parking lot party? We threw a party outside of the church. Dunk the deacon?” And someone else quickly Googled: how much does it cost to rent a dunk tank? And they were like, “It’s 250 bucks, should we do it?” As they were planning this kind of ridiculous party, they started feeling relaxed. They hosted this parking lot party, and they had the church band play cover songs, they had a dunk tank, they had cotton candy, and they basically just practiced being together again, which after the pandemic was a big deal. One of the women wrote to me later, and she said, “It was so beautiful.” And as people left that day, I kept hearing the phrase, “I didn’t realize how much we needed this.” What they did that day was they didn’t go for the wound. They didn’t go for the jugular. They watered the garden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>May we all water more gardens and really get to the other side of this moment and beyond. Inside our friendships, obviously, but beyond for our country. Thank you so much, Priya. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Parker: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Priya Parker is a facilitator, as you heard, and strategic adviser. Her new book is “The Art of Fighting: The Transformative Power of Conflict.” Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "the-case-for-a-fetish-revolution",
"title": "The Case for a Fetish Revolution",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom,\u003c/strong> sex educator; author, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Niki Davis-Fainbloom, author of the forthcoming book \"Fetish,\" is calling for a fetish revolution. She wants us to rethink what we call strange, or kinky, so we can normalize all types of desire. \n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Niki Davis-Fainbloom and her work \u003ca href=\"https://www.nikidavisf.com/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom,\u003c/strong> sex educator; author, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk?",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr. — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, STAT News",
"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
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"The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry — Kara Nesvig, Allure",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Morgan Sung: What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk? | KQED",
"description": "Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "kaiser-permanente-to-pay-owed-wages-to-more-than-1000-nurses-says-union",
"title": "Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute",
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"headTitle": "Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "The California Nurses Association estimates total missed pay in the tens of millions of dollars.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"headTitle": "What Does Romantic Jealousy Do to Us? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jealousy can begin as curiosity, even admiration, before it curdles into something darker. For writer Sarah Haas, an old Instagram post of her husband’s ex became the root of an obsession. She began to stalk the woman online, pore over her photographs and even tried to look like her. She began to feel the woman’s presence in ordinary moments in her marriage, the intrusive thoughts spiraling her into anger and shame. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person,” said Haas. “And she became somebody who was always with me and who was standing against me. She was a threat to what I had.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Haas about the destructive power of jealousy and the source of the emotion she calls both noxious and inevitable. Haas’s forthcoming book is “Jealousy: A Memoir.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sarah Haas and her work \u003ca href=\"https://sarahrosehaas.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas, \u003c/strong>author, “Jealousy: A Memoir”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah, you have really experienced the absolute depths of jealousy. How do you define it? And how is it potentially different from envy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah, you have really experienced the absolute depths of jealousy. How do you define it? And how is it potentially different from envy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Writer Sarah Haas became obsessed with a woman she’d never met: her husband’s ex. In her new book, Jealousy: A Memoir, she explores how jealousy can consume us, distort reality and begin to feel like a force of its own.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jealousy can begin as curiosity, even admiration, before it curdles into something darker. For writer Sarah Haas, an old Instagram post of her husband’s ex became the root of an obsession. She began to stalk the woman online, pore over her photographs and even tried to look like her. She began to feel the woman’s presence in ordinary moments in her marriage, the intrusive thoughts spiraling her into anger and shame. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person,” said Haas. “And she became somebody who was always with me and who was standing against me. She was a threat to what I had.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Haas about the destructive power of jealousy and the source of the emotion she calls both noxious and inevitable. Haas’s forthcoming book is “Jealousy: A Memoir.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sarah Haas and her work \u003ca href=\"https://sarahrosehaas.com/about/\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas, \u003c/strong>author, “Jealousy: A Memoir”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah, you have really experienced the absolute depths of jealousy. How do you define it? And how is it potentially different from envy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In love, some of us hold tightly to our independence, while others crave closeness and reassurance. Attachment theory calls those tendencies avoidant or anxious — and we’ve long assumed they’re wired into us from an early age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Columbia University psychiatrist Amir Levine, author of the bestseller “Attached,” says attachment is far more flexible than we realize. He says anyone can build a more secure life by surrounding themselves with a “village” of dependable relationships. “You can let your guard down, and you can explore more,” Levine said. “You can dare more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk with Levine about his new book, “Secure,” and how the relationships we build can change the way we attach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can learn about your own attachment style \u003ca href=\"https://amirlevinemd.com/attachment-style-quiz/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine,\u003c/strong> associate professor of clinical psychiatry, Columbia University; author, \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are the attachment styles?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>There are four recognized attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, secure, and fearful avoidant. People who are anxious love a lot of closeness, but they need reassurance. They’re very sensitive to any potential disruption in that closeness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People who are avoidant don’t like too much closeness. Independence comes first. And then, secure, they go with the flow. If you need a lot reassurance, they’ll give you reassurance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you need your distance, they’ll give you distance. They’re not gonna take it to heart, and they’re not going to get upset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the fourth one, which is more rare, is a combination of people who want to be in a relationship and want closeness, but they’re also very sensitive to being potentially rebuffed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like, I need people, but I’m also really scared of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And the thesis of your book is that if you fall into one of these insecure categories, there’s actually hope for you once you create a secure village with people who are consistent and responsive and predictable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just the interactions with our most crucial relationships; the seemingly insignificant minor interactions that we’re having all day long with the barista, with our boss, with a colleague. Those make a difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. 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But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the one thing that someone should change tomorrow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. 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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you can learn about your own attachment style \u003ca href=\"https://amirlevinemd.com/attachment-style-quiz/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In love, some of us hold tightly to our independence, while others crave closeness and reassurance. Attachment theory calls those tendencies avoidant or anxious — and we’ve long assumed they’re wired into us from an early age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Columbia University psychiatrist Amir Levine, author of the bestseller “Attached,” says attachment is far more flexible than we realize. He says anyone can build a more secure life by surrounding themselves with a “village” of dependable relationships. “You can let your guard down, and you can explore more,” Levine said. “You can dare more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk with Levine about his new book, “Secure,” and how the relationships we build can change the way we attach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can learn about your own attachment style \u003ca href=\"https://amirlevinemd.com/attachment-style-quiz/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine,\u003c/strong> associate professor of clinical psychiatry, Columbia University; author, \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are the attachment styles?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>There are four recognized attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, secure, and fearful avoidant. People who are anxious love a lot of closeness, but they need reassurance. They’re very sensitive to any potential disruption in that closeness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People who are avoidant don’t like too much closeness. Independence comes first. And then, secure, they go with the flow. If you need a lot reassurance, they’ll give you reassurance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you need your distance, they’ll give you distance. They’re not gonna take it to heart, and they’re not going to get upset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the fourth one, which is more rare, is a combination of people who want to be in a relationship and want closeness, but they’re also very sensitive to being potentially rebuffed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like, I need people, but I’m also really scared of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And the thesis of your book is that if you fall into one of these insecure categories, there’s actually hope for you once you create a secure village with people who are consistent and responsive and predictable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just the interactions with our most crucial relationships; the seemingly insignificant minor interactions that we’re having all day long with the barista, with our boss, with a colleague. Those make a difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. You can feel the self-esteem, the control over one’s life, all of that stuff really kicks into place. But it’s not just the psychological, it really affects us on a bodily level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Flesh out some of the findings that you illustrate in your book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the one thing that someone should change tomorrow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>Thanks, I really enjoyed this conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"radiolab": {
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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"reveal": {
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"science-friday": {
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