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Election officials have said the claims are baseless, but Bianco said he has to investigate crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bianco said one of his top priorities as governor would be to kill the California Environmental Quality Act, or CEQA. He’d also get rid of the Coastal Commission and the California Air Resources Board. Those are some of the state’s bedrock environmental protections.\u003cbr>\n“Those are the issues that cause our cost of living to go up,” Bianco said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArticlePage-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/los-angeles-activities/world-cup-la-advocates-say-human-rights-are-an-afterthought\">\u003cstrong>A month out from World Cup, LA advocates say human rights are an afterthought\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Los Angeles World Cup host committee has quietly posted its guidance on human rights after months of speculation over where the plan was and when it would be published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Advocates had pushed the committee, an arm of the Los Angeles Sports & Entertainment Commission, to produce its plan. But now that it’s out, they’re not satisfied with what they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The human rights guidance\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/29/nx-s1-5787871/world-cup-cities-slow-to-reveal-fifa-required-human-rights-protection-plans\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu> is required by FIFA\u003c/u>\u003c/a> and outlined on \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://losangelesfwc26.com/human-rights/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>the host committee’s website\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. It includes a list of online resources including where to file complaints with various local and state level agencies and a summary of local, state and federal laws protecting human and civil rights. The committee is also touting a partnership with L.A. County in which people can \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://211la.org/humanrights\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>call 211 to report a concern during the tournament\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. “Los Angeles is weeks away from hosting one of the largest sporting events in the world, and yet what has been posted is not a plan,” Stephanie Richard, director of the Sunita Jain Anti‑Trafficking Initiative at Loyola Law School, said in a statement. “It is a list of laws and hotline numbers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The human rights document also skirts fears around ICE and its potential presence at the tournament and surrounding celebrations. Todd Lyons, the agency’s head, said earlier this year that ICE’s investigatory branch \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://laist.com/news/ice-confirms-at-world-cup-la-advocates-raise-alarm-over-human-rights\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>will play a key role in security for the tournament. \u003c/u>\u003c/a>But ICE and immigration enforcement aren’t mentioned on the host committee’s web page on human rights or in its outline of its approach to human rights. “Immigration status” only gets a mention in the list of existing anti-discrimination laws. “It certainly could have been much stronger,” Angelica Salas, executive director of the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights in Los Angeles, said of the plan. She added that her organization participated in a roundtable on the plan, and she was disappointed ICE and recent immigration sweeps weren’t mentioned in the resulting document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LAist reached out to spokespeople for the host committee for comment via email, phone and text, but did not hear back in time for publication. FIFA’s press team also did not respond to an email from LAist. According to the host committee’s website, the human rights plan is the result of coordination with the city and county of Los Angeles, the city of Inglewood, and 14 roundtable discussions held in the fall of 2025.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Wednesday, May 13, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the crowded field of mostly Democratic candidates vying to be California’s next governor, one MAGA Republican has had surprising staying power. That’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081096/riverside-county-sheriff-chad-bianco-on-his-faith-cutting-taxes-and-ballot-seizure\">Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco.\u003c/a> He’s recently been in national headlines for seizing hundreds of thousands of ballots, among other controversies. Bianco has built his profile on bashing the state’s Democrats and Governor Gavin Newsom. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The World Cup is officially one month away. And \u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/los-angeles-activities/world-cup-la-advocates-say-human-rights-are-an-afterthought\">some LA advocates\u003c/a> aren’t happy about how organizers plan to address human rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Riverside County Sheriff stays consistent in attack on Democrats as race for governor winds down\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Riverside County Sheriff \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081096/riverside-county-sheriff-chad-bianco-on-his-faith-cutting-taxes-and-ballot-seizure\">Chad Bianco\u003c/a> has consistently polled in the top 4-5 candidates since he entered the race for California governor. In the final month before the June primary, he continues his attacks on Democrats in Sacramento and Governor Gavin Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I want government out of the way of growth in California so we can once again finally prosper. It’s going to be like California will be more prosperous than at any time in its history, and I will liken it to the Gold Rush years,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bianco blames Democrats for ruining the state he said he fell in love with as a kid visiting from Utah. “Our businesses are leaving. Our workers are leaving. Our kids can’t afford to live here. There’s nothing good coming from the current Democrat Party,” Bianco said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bianco’s campaign has not been without controversy. He’s an ardent supporter of President Trump and recently \u003ca href=\"https://www.kvcrnews.org/local-news/2026-03-20/riverside-sheriff-says-ag-is-interfering-in-election-investigation\">seized hundreds of thousands of ballots\u003c/a> from the Riverside County Registrar of Voters, based on a tip from a citizens group that alleged election fraud. Election officials have said the claims are baseless, but Bianco said he has to investigate crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bianco said one of his top priorities as governor would be to kill the California Environmental Quality Act, or CEQA. He’d also get rid of the Coastal Commission and the California Air Resources Board. Those are some of the state’s bedrock environmental protections.\u003cbr>\n“Those are the issues that cause our cost of living to go up,” Bianco said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArticlePage-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/los-angeles-activities/world-cup-la-advocates-say-human-rights-are-an-afterthought\">\u003cstrong>A month out from World Cup, LA advocates say human rights are an afterthought\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Los Angeles World Cup host committee has quietly posted its guidance on human rights after months of speculation over where the plan was and when it would be published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Advocates had pushed the committee, an arm of the Los Angeles Sports & Entertainment Commission, to produce its plan. But now that it’s out, they’re not satisfied with what they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The human rights guidance\u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/29/nx-s1-5787871/world-cup-cities-slow-to-reveal-fifa-required-human-rights-protection-plans\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu> is required by FIFA\u003c/u>\u003c/a> and outlined on \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://losangelesfwc26.com/human-rights/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>the host committee’s website\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. It includes a list of online resources including where to file complaints with various local and state level agencies and a summary of local, state and federal laws protecting human and civil rights. The committee is also touting a partnership with L.A. County in which people can \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://211la.org/humanrights\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>call 211 to report a concern during the tournament\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. “Los Angeles is weeks away from hosting one of the largest sporting events in the world, and yet what has been posted is not a plan,” Stephanie Richard, director of the Sunita Jain Anti‑Trafficking Initiative at Loyola Law School, said in a statement. “It is a list of laws and hotline numbers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The human rights document also skirts fears around ICE and its potential presence at the tournament and surrounding celebrations. Todd Lyons, the agency’s head, said earlier this year that ICE’s investigatory branch \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://laist.com/news/ice-confirms-at-world-cup-la-advocates-raise-alarm-over-human-rights\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>will play a key role in security for the tournament. \u003c/u>\u003c/a>But ICE and immigration enforcement aren’t mentioned on the host committee’s web page on human rights or in its outline of its approach to human rights. “Immigration status” only gets a mention in the list of existing anti-discrimination laws. “It certainly could have been much stronger,” Angelica Salas, executive director of the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights in Los Angeles, said of the plan. She added that her organization participated in a roundtable on the plan, and she was disappointed ICE and recent immigration sweeps weren’t mentioned in the resulting document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LAist reached out to spokespeople for the host committee for comment via email, phone and text, but did not hear back in time for publication. FIFA’s press team also did not respond to an email from LAist. According to the host committee’s website, the human rights plan is the result of coordination with the city and county of Los Angeles, the city of Inglewood, and 14 roundtable discussions held in the fall of 2025.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">diving into the world of nonconsensual deepfake porn and why this problem reaches far beyond influencers and sex workers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When users on X started asking Grok to generate explicit images of real women and girls without their consent, Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator Morgpie watched the harassment spiral in real time. Cosplayer and software engineer Zander Small saw firsthand how nonconsensual images affected his girlfriend, a SFW creator, and her friends. The two decided to team up to build tools that help creators detect leaks, remove deepfakes, and reclaim control over their images online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and nonconsensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5643980688\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bigguswombus/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgpie\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, OnlyFans creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/zander_smalls/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander Small\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">content creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dexerto.com/twitch/influencers-take-on-ai-deepfakes-with-new-creator-protection-agency-3324719/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers take on AI deepfakes with their own creator protection agency\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Virginia Glaze, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dextero\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musks-ai-chatbot-grok-xai-making-sexual-deepfakes-imagine-rcna265855\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk’s Grok AI chatbot is still making sexual deepfakes, despite X’s promise to stop it\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Ingram, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/deepfake-nudify-schools-global-crisis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Deepfake Nudes Crisis in Schools Is Much Worse Than You Thought\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matt Burgess, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2025/05/take-it-down-act-signing-explicit-images\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take It Down Act: How to use it to remove revenge porn\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/rainns-recommendations-for-legislators/image-based-sexual-abuse-laws-combat-nonconsensual-ai-deepfakes/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Image-Based Sexual Abuse Laws: Combat Nonconsensual AI Deepfakes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/get-informed/issues/ai-tech-enabled-sexual-abuse/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI & Tech-Enabled Sexual Abuse: Risk & Prevention\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://deepstrike.io/blog/deepfake-statistics-2025\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deepfake Statistics 2025: AI Fraud Data & Trends\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mohammed Khalil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeepStrike\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you closing your tabs? You can be honest, this is a safe space. If you’re a fan of Close All Tabs and you want more of it, then please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us. It would be such a huge help to get the word out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s get to the show. Just a note, this episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and non-consensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know Grok? It’s the AI chatbot integrated with X, the social media app formerly known as Twitter and now owned by Elon Musk. Well, since late last year, Grok has been embroiled in an undressing scandal, generating sexually explicit images of people without their consent. The majority of targets were women. Some were minors, young girls. For a few weeks, it was a pretty disgusting widespread trend. When women or even teenage girls posted fully clothed photos of themselves on X, other users would comment and tag Grok, asking it to ‘put her in a bikini’ or ‘take off her top.’ The chatbot would publicly respond with a generated lewd or completely naked image of the subject. Some users went even further, asking Grok to add blood and bruises, prompting the chatbot to generate graphic, sexually violent images of these women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, it was very much like I was waking up every day and I didn’t want to post.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Morgpie, a Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator. People who know her IRL call her Morgan. She’s been a porn actress for years, and as someone who makes sexually explicit content, she’s used to creeps harassing her with her own nudes. But the Grok and dressing trend really unsettled her. It was the worst in January.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being looped in with something that is so violating, and like you said, something that’s even affecting minors is just disgusting. Every day I was going into my comments and just like hiding replies and blocking because I’m like, I’m not going to let you guys just generate these images of me that I did not consent to, especially if it’s being associated with basically creating child pornography on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was non-consensual, intimate imagery, more commonly known as deep fake porn. A deep fake is content that has been generated or manipulated by AI to imitate someone else. Zander Small, another content creator and a friend of Morgan’s, says that the proliferation of AI tools has started to seriously affect content creators, regardless of whether or not they make adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep fakes can be anything from deep fake explicit imagery with like, a creator doing something or nude content that they didn’t consent to. Or it could be stuff as simple as like, an audio deep fake where a creator is saying something that they don’t consent too, which might have repercussions of them being canceled or stuff that they just obviously wouldn’t consent to saying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of herself as much. After years of being in this industry, she’s developed thick skin. She’s mostly dealt with leaks, or explicit content that she posted behind a paywall that was illegally downloaded and posted elsewhere, without her consent. But the Grok trend is just the tip of the iceberg. Non-consensual deep fake-porn has exploded over the last few years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for a lot of people, the lack of consent is very attractive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is an issue that overwhelmingly affects women, and these circles are not as fringe as you might think. An annual report last year by the cybersecurity firm DeepStrike found that roughly 97% of all deepfakes online fall under non-consensual intimate imagery, and that 99 to 100% of victims of deepfake pornography are women. Here’s Zander again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is either fans, if you want to call them that, or just creeps on the internet, wanting to see more out of a creator than they consented to. I know it affects a lot of SFW creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFW, or Safe for Work. They don’t show nudity or make sexually explicit content. While NSFW, not Safer work, means adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you know, and I guess from that, you know, if a creator isn’t consenting to do more explicit content, then, you know, these, uh, I guess perpetrators, creeps, whatever you want to call them, you know, take into their hands to do it themselves. And it’s incredibly easy to deep fake content and, you know, as models get better and better and they get quicker and quicker, it doesn’t really require as much of sophisticated technology to run these models.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the mainstream models, ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, have guardrails that are supposed to prevent them from generating deep fake porn. In January, X announced that it implemented technological measures to prevent Grok from modifying images of real people in revealing clothing. But there are ways to get around these guardraills. Just last month, NBC News reported that Grok is still generating deep-fake porn of real women. And like Zander said, there are so many other models out there that just don’t have these guardrails in the first place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of himself, but he’s seen how much it’s affected people he’s close to, other safer work creators who don’t make explicit content. And Morgan, coming from the porn industry, has seen how this issue affects her fellow adult content creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So late last year, they teamed up to come up with a solution for other creators. Today, we’re diving into the seedy reality of non-consensual deepfake porn, when it got so bad, why it’s so hard to stop, and how two Gen Z content creators are trying to tackle it. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab: the reality of non-consensual deep fake porn. Morgan is an award-winning porn creator. Literally, she has multiple Pornhub awards. And when she started years ago, the internet was very different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting because when I first started, the climate was very much like, if you opened up Twitter, you would see tweets that are like, ‘sex work is real work.’ Of course, this was kind of around the time when OnlyFans was only just emerging barely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the world of adult content, there was before OnlyFans, and then there’s after OnlyFans. The platform completely changed the game, lowering the barrier of entry for new creators and giving them new options to monetize their content. Morgan said that before OnlyFans blew up, the only way to make a living as an independent porn creator was to land on the front page of Pornhub, or actresses had to break into the industry by being part of studio productions where they didn’t have as much autonomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting the shift between whenever porn was basically widely available, you didn’t really have to pay much for it. When I first started, I was uploading to Pornhub, and that was full length, full scenes that you could see for free at any time. Whereas now, the climate has shifted a lot to where creators like myself have a lot more control. So we’re able to, you know, use OnlyFans as a platform where we are more connected with our audience and that is actually the main pull. Now we’re in this age where these models can kind of take a bit of that control back. They can control what content they make, how much they sell it for. And I think that that plays so much into like the conversation about deepfakes where it’s about control. It’s all about consent. And then with deepfakes, you can make anybody do anything. So you have the control over this other person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since joining OnlyFans, Morgan and other adult creators have dealt with the same problem: leaks. They consent to paying subscribers accessing certain premium content that’s been posted behind a paywall. Then some unscrupulous subscriber downloads it and posts it publicly without their permission for the rest of the world to see. It was a constant source of frustration for Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then about a year and a half ago, Morgan noticed the deep fakes. Her friends told her about how they stumbled across videos of themselves online, but it wasn’t really them. Someone had taken explicit content from behind their paywalls and modified it, morphing them into these scenarios that the creators never wanted to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it all stems back to control. It’s like, ‘oh, you did this thing that I didn’t like. Well, look at this control I have over your image. I’m going to use that against you.’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think some detractors would say, like, ‘oh, well, if you make explicit content, why does deep fake porn bother you? Or why do your leaks bother you?’ What would you say to them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s it’s all about consent. That’s like saying, ‘oh, because you make porn, if I see you on the street, I can sexually assault you.’ You know, it’s like, consent is a very real thing. And there’s a big difference between me in the comfort of my own home within my own boundaries, producing content that I enjoy, and somebody else taking these things and making content that I didn’t consent to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just Morgan and her fellow porn actresses dealing with this. Women who don’t make explicit content are also subjected to this harassment. One of the most well-known cases of this was when Atrioc, a Twitch streamer, was live. During his stream, he showed his open tabs for a split second, and one of them included deep fake porn of his own friends and streaming colleagues. He was caught buying this content. QTCinderella, another streamer was one of Atriok’s close friends. She was also a victim of the deep fake porn he bought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip of QTCinderella]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atrioc for showing it to thousands of people, the people DMing me pictures of myself from that website, f*ck you all!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is like a great example of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is another Twitch streamer who was also a victim of atriox deep fake porn purchases. She does not make explicit adult content, but as a woman existing online, she deals with harassment constantly. Like, here she is reading comments from her audience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Pokimane]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo yo yo, let’s see some ass. This ain’t a club fam, this is just my Twitch chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are so many clips of her literally just getting up and standing up out of her chair and that’ll get clipped and posted all over Twitter. And all of Twitter is like, ‘look at what she’s doing. She’s gooner baiting!’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Goonerbait started as a term to describe video games or anime that aren’t pornographic but contain a lot of sexual imagery like jiggle physics and very scantily clad female characters. It’s media designed to appeal to gooners. Gooners are porn addicts. And now, internet randos love to accuse real-life women of gooner baiting, mainly female streamers like Pokimane.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘She’s, you know, performing for her male audience.’ And it’s like, well, is she really doing anything? She kind of just got up and walked out of the room, but they’re like, ‘oh, her pants are a little too tight.’ So it’s, like, I think this idea of a woman that’s kind of, just not really even doing anything, a lot of people love to just over-sexualize.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some online circles, there is the sentiment that women like Morgan deserve to be deepfaked because they already make porn, and that women, like Pokimane, also deserve to deepfake because they’re somehow gooner baiting. It even affects people who don’t post online. Non-consensual deepfakes are rampant in schools. A Wired investigation last month found that high school boys have targeted their fellow classmates by spreading fake, generated nudes of them. These are teenage girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, the thing is, it’s not going to stop with sex workers. As much as the sentiment these days is very anti-sex work, like, ‘oh, if you make this content, you’re kind of putting yourself up to be distributed in this way.’ But the thing it is, is it’s 100% a slippery slope and it’s going to keep going into Twitch streamers who are known and even just normal people. There’s nothing stopping anybody from pulling up somebody’s Facebook profile, just a normal person who doesn’t produce any content whatsoever, and making explicit deep fakes of them and distributing them. And that can be used as blackmail. The possibilities there are quite literally endless in terms of the harm that they could cause for everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve talked about spending so much money on deepfake takedowns, but how did you initially try to tackle this problem of deepfakes and leaked content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going in every single week and I was Googling my name and I was going on like Twitter, Reddit, all these other sites, just like searching for my name, um, and seeing pages and pages and pages of all this leaked content that would come up. And back then I was paying over a thousand dollars a month on these takedowns, but I would still have to go in and manually report a lot of stuff. You shouldn’t really have to go in and look at your own leaks and your own deep fakes, which is just awful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan was at her wits end. And then, late last year, she saw that Zander was working on a project that may be able to solve her problem. And she wanted to help. We’ll hear Zander’s story after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, back to the story after the break. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Now, let’s open that new tab: What is Fanlock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander had started out as a Minecraft YouTuber back in high school. It was a fun thing he did on the side before he went to college to study software engineering. He was on his high school robotics team and loved tinkering and fixing things. A few years ago, during his sophomore year, he started going to anime conventions with his friends. Here’s the thing, Zander’s really tall. He’s 6’8″. His friend pointed out that he could carve out a real niche as a comically tall cosplayer. He pushed Zander to start posting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like ‘Bro, it’s gonna be like viral because like, oh my gosh, why is a Gojo cosplayer like as tall as like LeBron James?’ So I did it and it did pretty good. And I guess it just snowballed from there and I just haven’t stopped since.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About six months after he went viral as comically tall Gojo, he started getting brand deals from anime companies. He gained hundreds of thousands of followers. He flew all over the country, attending cons and meetups. He even hosted a few lookalike competitions. There’s a picture of the Hatsune Miku lookalite competition he hosted. A gaggle of cosplayers in turquoise wigs, and then Zander, towering above the crowd in his own turquois getup. Of course, he was still in school juggling a burgeoning full-time career as a content creator while also attending classes and doing homework and studying for exams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He considered dropping out, but his parents really, really wanted him to stay in school. They weren’t thrilled at the idea of their son leaving an engineering degree to pursue anime content. So he stuck it out, and last year, while finishing up his last semester of school, He stumbled across this deep fake problem. It struck a very personal chord.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So about a month before I graduated, my girlfriend, who’s an SFW creator, had a huge deep fake problem. Um, you know, there’s accounts popping up on like Threads or Instagram that either use her likeness or just full on non-consensual porn, uh, deep fakes of her, which is super mentally taxing, uh on her, you know, as an SF W creator. You know, she didn’t consent to being in those positions or having these account to DM her fans, like, ‘Hey, send me $400 and we’ll go on a date,’ type of just scam content. So it was from there that I was like, let me see what’s up and see if I can help you. So that’s when I really took a deep dive into DMCA, non-consensual imagery and depending on the platform it’s on what you can do about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DMCA, as in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It’s copyright law for internet content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was able to get a lot of her stuff down, which was great. Uh, but then at that point it was like, you know, what are the other players in the space doing about this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What he found were takedown tools that were very expensive and not that effective. While creator management firms and talent agencies have in-house services for this, they’re inaccessible to smaller creators. After Zander helped his girlfriend, her friends reached out to him. They had the same problem. And then their friends reached out. And all of this coincided with his post-graduation job search. He planned to at least try to use his degree. But the job market for entry-level software engineers was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the third final round interview at like some fang company where they rejected me after four weeks and five interviews, I was just so fed up. I was like, you know what, screw this. I’m gonna just do this myself. I’ma make my own company. So, and at that time, you it’s like the overlap of like, oh, I figured out how to do this. I could help more creators like this and really solve a real problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, he started working on it, a tool for creators that would scan the internet for leaked and deepfaked content and automatically send DMCA takedown requests. And if the sites didn’t comply, this tool would have to find other ways to force a takedow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander knew how traumatic it was for his girlfriend and her friends to be constantly confronted with non-consensual deepfake porn. So, he wanted this tool to take down content automatically, without creators having to see it. And the tool also had to catch the non-consensual deepfakes before they spread to other platforms. But he knew he couldn’t do it alone. He needed the perspective of other creators for it to really work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I pretty much just posted on my close friends at some point, like, hey, I’m thinking about doing this as like an actual like business or something like that. If anyone will be down to just test it out for free and see how good like my, you know, scanning architecture and stuff like that is, let me know. And Morgan actually swiped up on the story and was like, hey, that actually sounds pretty neat. I’d be down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan and Zander had met at TwitchCon a while back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we hopped on a call and I was like, ‘would you be down to like do this with me?’ Cause like, I think it’d be pretty sick if we had like two creators doing it that know the problem. You know, Morgan knows firsthand, like the adult space, but as well as like a firsthand account of like leaks and deep fakes and you know, where they live and stuff like that. And you know I guess from there, it just was one of those things where it was like I think this could be a real player in the space and I’m really passionate about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan, what was it like for you to see that story?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve struggled with this stuff for so long. I know so many people that I could tap in on and get their feedback. My scope in this space is so wide because I’ve had my eggs in so many baskets online And that I knew that I would be able to bring a good perspective and good input.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they managed to raise $200,000, and with that, Morgan and Zander launched Fanlock earlier this year. Zander handles the technical side, making sure Fanlock works, and Morgan handles the creator side, managing outreach to other creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I get to apply that degree that I was considering dropping out to do content for. And it’s, I guess like a full 360, you know, everyone that was like, you should stay in school and finish it out. I guess it came back to be useful because now I can apply it to helping my friends and other people in the space with this really real problem that they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This solution isn’t that straightforward though. That’s a new tab: Why is it so hard to take down deepfakes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In May last year, President Trump signed the Take It Down Act, a landmark law that criminalizes the publication of non-consensual intimate imagery, including digital forgeries, aka deep fake porn. It’s one of Congress’s first bipartisan actions to tackle AI-generated content. The law also requires online platforms to implement a removal request system and to take down deep fake porn within 48 hours of a request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these sites thankfully already had like forms or different reporting mechanisms to report deepfakes, but I think with this act itself, it’s a really good step in the right direction to combat non-consensual deepfake and, you know, props to the government for doing something right for once and actually passing this really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the Take It Down Act is only enforceable under U.S. jurisdiction, although the EU also has similar laws. But a lot of these sites are based outside of these places, like in Russia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so for like Russia and Chinese sites, it gets a lot harder because they don’t have any need to comply either like deep fake penalties or DMCA because it’s specifically like USA, EU jurisdiction typically. And that makes it a lot hard to get content down off those sites if it’s even possible at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a few things you can do for these sites. There’s been some sites I know firsthand that they use, let’s say, a USA-based company for their notification system. We’re able to submit basically a DMCA to those companies, basically being like, hey, just so you know, you’re aiding in copyright infringement by working with this client. If we were to take it a step further, we could always issue a DMC subpoena to them if they use Google Analytics, for example, to straight to Google. And that would help us get more information about… The actual emails of the site, who this person actually is. So if they’re in the EU or USA, we can take those legal routes. Obviously there’s sites I know that are pretty much, they’re built from the ground up for piracy and it’s pretty much impossible to get those stuff down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the more difficult aspects of tackling deepfakes is catching them before Google indexes them, basically, storing web pages in its own database so they appear in search results. Because when something appears in search results, it spreads like wildfire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google updated its search functions a few years ago to identify deepfakes and prevent them from appearing at the top of search results, but there are still deepfakess that slip through the cracks. Zander said that Fanlock keeps tabs on specific sites that have histories of hosting non-consensual deepfakes. They scan them and send takedown demands, before they hit Google search results.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, no one wants their family Googling them or something and they see deep fakes of them all over Google Images.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know Fanlock also relies on a lot of facial recognition technology to identify leaked content and deepfakes. Obviously, this technology is very controversial. It’s often used in law enforcement and has a lot connections to surveillance. But what are your thoughts on this use of facial-recognition technology?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, obviously, if a creator signs up for our platform and we’re doing it in a consensual manner, I think that’s great. I obviously am big anti-surveillance, but I think the the key word at the end of the day is just consent, which is like the fundamental problem that I think these creators are having. And if they’re consenting to a service to take down stuff that was made non-consensually, I think, that’s why our creators are okay with it. And I think there’s a big differentiation between that and then, you know, some tech company scanning my face to see if I’m a criminal or something like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to talk about some of the technical challenges that still exist. You mentioned trying to build a Telegram scanner right now. A lot of non-consensual deep fake porn is passed around in closed channels on Discord or group chats or Telegram. Do either of you have any experience with this happening? Like, what is the approach here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we were building FanLock, I was like, Telegram is, like, the final boss of piracy. I really want to build a solution that while we can’t scan a hundred percent of Telegram, I want to build the absolute most, like I guess comprehensive Telegram scanner we can based on like what’s publicly available and what providers there are to us. So for Telegram, typically for like private groups and stuff like that, you’re able to join them if you have like a join link, which we’ve kind of gotten from people being like, ‘hey, I got leaks here, join my channel.’ And after we get the join link we’re able to figure out where copyrighted content is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We already do have our Telegram scanner up. You know, we have about 11 million channels, you know, from our own services, but also third party providers that we use that have kind of indexed Telegram for us, which is great. Discord is a little bit trickier because it’s a TOS breach to use any sort of like bot activity on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TOS is Terms of Service, the contract between a platform like Telegram and its users.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, like on Discord, if someone has a link that they’ve noticed that they want down, they can submit it to us and then we can do it from there. We currently don’t scan Discord because it is like a TOS breach to do, but we’re hoping as, like I said, as we grow that door can open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Overall, what hurdles still exist when it comes to taking down deepfakes? Like what’s the kind of like technical white whale you’re still chasing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’d say the biggest thing that we’re trying to roll out is actually identifying who leaked or who deep faked XYZ content. I think if we were able to do that, we might, I wouldn’t say solve the piracy problem, but definitely lower it. You know, we’re really hoping we can get in talks with, you know, platforms like OF, Fansly or Instagram and stuff like that, uh, to roll out a technology that we’re working on where basically it embeds like an invisible watermark into different images and stuff like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if it is leaked or if it has deep faked or if someone else’s face has put on it, they’re able to know who exactly posted it based off this invisible embedded technology, which already exists for sites like Netflix. It’s how they track like video, uh, I guess leaks or, you know, from studios that maybe have like a trailer for the new Avengers movie and they want to track if it got leaked on X or anything like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if we’re able to get that done, like I feel like we’d significantly fix the problem and be a lot more proactive. Because I mean, if people start realizing, ‘oh shoot, if I leak or deep fake content, my account gets banned. Like, it’s going to really throw a wrench in the whole leak ecosystem. And that’s what we’re really trying to build towards right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re coming from very different sides of the internet, kind of, whether in the safe work side or the adult content industry. But this is also a problem that deeply affects both of your spheres of the creator economy. How has the proliferation of deepfake porn changed the creator industry for you? And what would you say to someone who’s afraid to keep posting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unfortunate thing is it’s such an uphill battle when it comes to deepfaked and leaked content, especially with AI getting as good as it is right now. But to somebody who is kind of scared to post right now, just know that there are people who are trying to find solutions to this kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for these people who are generating this kind of content, it’s very much about their own sense of control. It doesn’t reflect you as a creator. You shouldn’t be afraid to post what you want because of this horrible threat of somebody taking your content and basically twisting it into something that you didn’t consent to. And hopefully our government can kind of catch up with this kind of stuff here pretty soon. But there are people like me and Zander who are trying to take real steps to help mitigate this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For creators, I’d say, you know, if you need to, you know, get anything you need for support on it, do it. You know, if you need to take a step back, do it. And then I’d say like, it’s a twofold thing where it’s like, don’t glamorize generative AI video and image content because that only speeds up the industry and then really push for better legislation and, you know, call your Senator, call your Congressman, like get it passed. Because It’s only going to get worse as it gets easier and it’s able to be done for more people. I think those are probably the two biggest things a creator can do right now that has like an actual like tangible impact to halt this problem or make it slow down at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you both so much for talking about all of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you or someone you know has been targeted with deep fake porn, there are ways to have it removed. Fanlock also has free guides for creators navigating this problem. Check the show notes for more. We’ll link to a few resources about the Take It Down Act and how to remove non-consensual intimate imagery. For now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">diving into the world of nonconsensual deepfake porn and why this problem reaches far beyond influencers and sex workers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When users on X started asking Grok to generate explicit images of real women and girls without their consent, Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator Morgpie watched the harassment spiral in real time. Cosplayer and software engineer Zander Small saw firsthand how nonconsensual images affected his girlfriend, a SFW creator, and her friends. The two decided to team up to build tools that help creators detect leaks, remove deepfakes, and reclaim control over their images online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and nonconsensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5643980688\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/bigguswombus/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgpie\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, OnlyFans creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/zander_smalls/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander Small\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">content creator and cofounder of Fanlock\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dexerto.com/twitch/influencers-take-on-ai-deepfakes-with-new-creator-protection-agency-3324719/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers take on AI deepfakes with their own creator protection agency\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Virginia Glaze, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dextero\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musks-ai-chatbot-grok-xai-making-sexual-deepfakes-imagine-rcna265855\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Musk’s Grok AI chatbot is still making sexual deepfakes, despite X’s promise to stop it\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — David Ingram, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/deepfake-nudify-schools-global-crisis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Deepfake Nudes Crisis in Schools Is Much Worse Than You Thought\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matt Burgess, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WIRED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://19thnews.org/2025/05/take-it-down-act-signing-explicit-images\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take It Down Act: How to use it to remove revenge porn\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jasmine Mithani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The 19th\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/rainns-recommendations-for-legislators/image-based-sexual-abuse-laws-combat-nonconsensual-ai-deepfakes/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Image-Based Sexual Abuse Laws: Combat Nonconsensual AI Deepfakes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://rainn.org/get-informed/issues/ai-tech-enabled-sexual-abuse/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI & Tech-Enabled Sexual Abuse: Risk & Prevention\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RAINN\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://deepstrike.io/blog/deepfake-statistics-2025\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deepfake Statistics 2025: AI Fraud Data & Trends\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Mohammed Khalil, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DeepStrike\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you closing your tabs? You can be honest, this is a safe space. If you’re a fan of Close All Tabs and you want more of it, then please rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And tell your friends about us. It would be such a huge help to get the word out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s get to the show. Just a note, this episode contains mentions of gender-based violence and non-consensual intimate imagery, which may be triggering for some listeners.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know Grok? It’s the AI chatbot integrated with X, the social media app formerly known as Twitter and now owned by Elon Musk. Well, since late last year, Grok has been embroiled in an undressing scandal, generating sexually explicit images of people without their consent. The majority of targets were women. Some were minors, young girls. For a few weeks, it was a pretty disgusting widespread trend. When women or even teenage girls posted fully clothed photos of themselves on X, other users would comment and tag Grok, asking it to ‘put her in a bikini’ or ‘take off her top.’ The chatbot would publicly respond with a generated lewd or completely naked image of the subject. Some users went even further, asking Grok to add blood and bruises, prompting the chatbot to generate graphic, sexually violent images of these women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, it was very much like I was waking up every day and I didn’t want to post.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Morgpie, a Twitch streamer and OnlyFans creator. People who know her IRL call her Morgan. She’s been a porn actress for years, and as someone who makes sexually explicit content, she’s used to creeps harassing her with her own nudes. But the Grok and dressing trend really unsettled her. It was the worst in January.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being looped in with something that is so violating, and like you said, something that’s even affecting minors is just disgusting. Every day I was going into my comments and just like hiding replies and blocking because I’m like, I’m not going to let you guys just generate these images of me that I did not consent to, especially if it’s being associated with basically creating child pornography on Twitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was non-consensual, intimate imagery, more commonly known as deep fake porn. A deep fake is content that has been generated or manipulated by AI to imitate someone else. Zander Small, another content creator and a friend of Morgan’s, says that the proliferation of AI tools has started to seriously affect content creators, regardless of whether or not they make adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep fakes can be anything from deep fake explicit imagery with like, a creator doing something or nude content that they didn’t consent to. Or it could be stuff as simple as like, an audio deep fake where a creator is saying something that they don’t consent too, which might have repercussions of them being canceled or stuff that they just obviously wouldn’t consent to saying.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of herself as much. After years of being in this industry, she’s developed thick skin. She’s mostly dealt with leaks, or explicit content that she posted behind a paywall that was illegally downloaded and posted elsewhere, without her consent. But the Grok trend is just the tip of the iceberg. Non-consensual deep fake-porn has exploded over the last few years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that for a lot of people, the lack of consent is very attractive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is an issue that overwhelmingly affects women, and these circles are not as fringe as you might think. An annual report last year by the cybersecurity firm DeepStrike found that roughly 97% of all deepfakes online fall under non-consensual intimate imagery, and that 99 to 100% of victims of deepfake pornography are women. Here’s Zander again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it is either fans, if you want to call them that, or just creeps on the internet, wanting to see more out of a creator than they consented to. I know it affects a lot of SFW creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFW, or Safe for Work. They don’t show nudity or make sexually explicit content. While NSFW, not Safer work, means adult content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, you know, and I guess from that, you know, if a creator isn’t consenting to do more explicit content, then, you know, these, uh, I guess perpetrators, creeps, whatever you want to call them, you know, take into their hands to do it themselves. And it’s incredibly easy to deep fake content and, you know, as models get better and better and they get quicker and quicker, it doesn’t really require as much of sophisticated technology to run these models.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the mainstream models, ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, have guardrails that are supposed to prevent them from generating deep fake porn. In January, X announced that it implemented technological measures to prevent Grok from modifying images of real people in revealing clothing. But there are ways to get around these guardraills. Just last month, NBC News reported that Grok is still generating deep-fake porn of real women. And like Zander said, there are so many other models out there that just don’t have these guardrails in the first place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander hasn’t had to deal with deep fake porn of himself, but he’s seen how much it’s affected people he’s close to, other safer work creators who don’t make explicit content. And Morgan, coming from the porn industry, has seen how this issue affects her fellow adult content creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So late last year, they teamed up to come up with a solution for other creators. Today, we’re diving into the seedy reality of non-consensual deepfake porn, when it got so bad, why it’s so hard to stop, and how two Gen Z content creators are trying to tackle it. Ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open our first tab: the reality of non-consensual deep fake porn. Morgan is an award-winning porn creator. Literally, she has multiple Pornhub awards. And when she started years ago, the internet was very different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting because when I first started, the climate was very much like, if you opened up Twitter, you would see tweets that are like, ‘sex work is real work.’ Of course, this was kind of around the time when OnlyFans was only just emerging barely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the world of adult content, there was before OnlyFans, and then there’s after OnlyFans. The platform completely changed the game, lowering the barrier of entry for new creators and giving them new options to monetize their content. Morgan said that before OnlyFans blew up, the only way to make a living as an independent porn creator was to land on the front page of Pornhub, or actresses had to break into the industry by being part of studio productions where they didn’t have as much autonomy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very interesting the shift between whenever porn was basically widely available, you didn’t really have to pay much for it. When I first started, I was uploading to Pornhub, and that was full length, full scenes that you could see for free at any time. Whereas now, the climate has shifted a lot to where creators like myself have a lot more control. So we’re able to, you know, use OnlyFans as a platform where we are more connected with our audience and that is actually the main pull. Now we’re in this age where these models can kind of take a bit of that control back. They can control what content they make, how much they sell it for. And I think that that plays so much into like the conversation about deepfakes where it’s about control. It’s all about consent. And then with deepfakes, you can make anybody do anything. So you have the control over this other person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since joining OnlyFans, Morgan and other adult creators have dealt with the same problem: leaks. They consent to paying subscribers accessing certain premium content that’s been posted behind a paywall. Then some unscrupulous subscriber downloads it and posts it publicly without their permission for the rest of the world to see. It was a constant source of frustration for Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then about a year and a half ago, Morgan noticed the deep fakes. Her friends told her about how they stumbled across videos of themselves online, but it wasn’t really them. Someone had taken explicit content from behind their paywalls and modified it, morphing them into these scenarios that the creators never wanted to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it all stems back to control. It’s like, ‘oh, you did this thing that I didn’t like. Well, look at this control I have over your image. I’m going to use that against you.’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think some detractors would say, like, ‘oh, well, if you make explicit content, why does deep fake porn bother you? Or why do your leaks bother you?’ What would you say to them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s it’s all about consent. That’s like saying, ‘oh, because you make porn, if I see you on the street, I can sexually assault you.’ You know, it’s like, consent is a very real thing. And there’s a big difference between me in the comfort of my own home within my own boundaries, producing content that I enjoy, and somebody else taking these things and making content that I didn’t consent to be in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just Morgan and her fellow porn actresses dealing with this. Women who don’t make explicit content are also subjected to this harassment. One of the most well-known cases of this was when Atrioc, a Twitch streamer, was live. During his stream, he showed his open tabs for a split second, and one of them included deep fake porn of his own friends and streaming colleagues. He was caught buying this content. QTCinderella, another streamer was one of Atriok’s close friends. She was also a victim of the deep fake porn he bought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio Clip of QTCinderella]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Atrioc for showing it to thousands of people, the people DMing me pictures of myself from that website, f*ck you all!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is like a great example of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pokimane is another Twitch streamer who was also a victim of atriox deep fake porn purchases. She does not make explicit adult content, but as a woman existing online, she deals with harassment constantly. Like, here she is reading comments from her audience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip of Pokimane]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yo yo yo, let’s see some ass. This ain’t a club fam, this is just my Twitch chat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are so many clips of her literally just getting up and standing up out of her chair and that’ll get clipped and posted all over Twitter. And all of Twitter is like, ‘look at what she’s doing. She’s gooner baiting!’.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Goonerbait started as a term to describe video games or anime that aren’t pornographic but contain a lot of sexual imagery like jiggle physics and very scantily clad female characters. It’s media designed to appeal to gooners. Gooners are porn addicts. And now, internet randos love to accuse real-life women of gooner baiting, mainly female streamers like Pokimane.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘She’s, you know, performing for her male audience.’ And it’s like, well, is she really doing anything? She kind of just got up and walked out of the room, but they’re like, ‘oh, her pants are a little too tight.’ So it’s, like, I think this idea of a woman that’s kind of, just not really even doing anything, a lot of people love to just over-sexualize.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In some online circles, there is the sentiment that women like Morgan deserve to be deepfaked because they already make porn, and that women, like Pokimane, also deserve to deepfake because they’re somehow gooner baiting. It even affects people who don’t post online. Non-consensual deepfakes are rampant in schools. A Wired investigation last month found that high school boys have targeted their fellow classmates by spreading fake, generated nudes of them. These are teenage girls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, the thing is, it’s not going to stop with sex workers. As much as the sentiment these days is very anti-sex work, like, ‘oh, if you make this content, you’re kind of putting yourself up to be distributed in this way.’ But the thing it is, is it’s 100% a slippery slope and it’s going to keep going into Twitch streamers who are known and even just normal people. There’s nothing stopping anybody from pulling up somebody’s Facebook profile, just a normal person who doesn’t produce any content whatsoever, and making explicit deep fakes of them and distributing them. And that can be used as blackmail. The possibilities there are quite literally endless in terms of the harm that they could cause for everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve talked about spending so much money on deepfake takedowns, but how did you initially try to tackle this problem of deepfakes and leaked content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was going in every single week and I was Googling my name and I was going on like Twitter, Reddit, all these other sites, just like searching for my name, um, and seeing pages and pages and pages of all this leaked content that would come up. And back then I was paying over a thousand dollars a month on these takedowns, but I would still have to go in and manually report a lot of stuff. You shouldn’t really have to go in and look at your own leaks and your own deep fakes, which is just awful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan was at her wits end. And then, late last year, she saw that Zander was working on a project that may be able to solve her problem. And she wanted to help. We’ll hear Zander’s story after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. Okay, back to the story after the break. Stick around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Now, let’s open that new tab: What is Fanlock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander had started out as a Minecraft YouTuber back in high school. It was a fun thing he did on the side before he went to college to study software engineering. He was on his high school robotics team and loved tinkering and fixing things. A few years ago, during his sophomore year, he started going to anime conventions with his friends. Here’s the thing, Zander’s really tall. He’s 6’8″. His friend pointed out that he could carve out a real niche as a comically tall cosplayer. He pushed Zander to start posting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was like ‘Bro, it’s gonna be like viral because like, oh my gosh, why is a Gojo cosplayer like as tall as like LeBron James?’ So I did it and it did pretty good. And I guess it just snowballed from there and I just haven’t stopped since.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About six months after he went viral as comically tall Gojo, he started getting brand deals from anime companies. He gained hundreds of thousands of followers. He flew all over the country, attending cons and meetups. He even hosted a few lookalike competitions. There’s a picture of the Hatsune Miku lookalite competition he hosted. A gaggle of cosplayers in turquoise wigs, and then Zander, towering above the crowd in his own turquois getup. Of course, he was still in school juggling a burgeoning full-time career as a content creator while also attending classes and doing homework and studying for exams.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He considered dropping out, but his parents really, really wanted him to stay in school. They weren’t thrilled at the idea of their son leaving an engineering degree to pursue anime content. So he stuck it out, and last year, while finishing up his last semester of school, He stumbled across this deep fake problem. It struck a very personal chord.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So about a month before I graduated, my girlfriend, who’s an SFW creator, had a huge deep fake problem. Um, you know, there’s accounts popping up on like Threads or Instagram that either use her likeness or just full on non-consensual porn, uh, deep fakes of her, which is super mentally taxing, uh on her, you know, as an SF W creator. You know, she didn’t consent to being in those positions or having these account to DM her fans, like, ‘Hey, send me $400 and we’ll go on a date,’ type of just scam content. So it was from there that I was like, let me see what’s up and see if I can help you. So that’s when I really took a deep dive into DMCA, non-consensual imagery and depending on the platform it’s on what you can do about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DMCA, as in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It’s copyright law for internet content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was able to get a lot of her stuff down, which was great. Uh, but then at that point it was like, you know, what are the other players in the space doing about this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What he found were takedown tools that were very expensive and not that effective. While creator management firms and talent agencies have in-house services for this, they’re inaccessible to smaller creators. After Zander helped his girlfriend, her friends reached out to him. They had the same problem. And then their friends reached out. And all of this coincided with his post-graduation job search. He planned to at least try to use his degree. But the job market for entry-level software engineers was rough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think by the third final round interview at like some fang company where they rejected me after four weeks and five interviews, I was just so fed up. I was like, you know what, screw this. I’m gonna just do this myself. I’ma make my own company. So, and at that time, you it’s like the overlap of like, oh, I figured out how to do this. I could help more creators like this and really solve a real problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, he started working on it, a tool for creators that would scan the internet for leaked and deepfaked content and automatically send DMCA takedown requests. And if the sites didn’t comply, this tool would have to find other ways to force a takedow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Zander knew how traumatic it was for his girlfriend and her friends to be constantly confronted with non-consensual deepfake porn. So, he wanted this tool to take down content automatically, without creators having to see it. And the tool also had to catch the non-consensual deepfakes before they spread to other platforms. But he knew he couldn’t do it alone. He needed the perspective of other creators for it to really work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I pretty much just posted on my close friends at some point, like, hey, I’m thinking about doing this as like an actual like business or something like that. If anyone will be down to just test it out for free and see how good like my, you know, scanning architecture and stuff like that is, let me know. And Morgan actually swiped up on the story and was like, hey, that actually sounds pretty neat. I’d be down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan and Zander had met at TwitchCon a while back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we hopped on a call and I was like, ‘would you be down to like do this with me?’ Cause like, I think it’d be pretty sick if we had like two creators doing it that know the problem. You know, Morgan knows firsthand, like the adult space, but as well as like a firsthand account of like leaks and deep fakes and you know, where they live and stuff like that. And you know I guess from there, it just was one of those things where it was like I think this could be a real player in the space and I’m really passionate about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan, what was it like for you to see that story?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve struggled with this stuff for so long. I know so many people that I could tap in on and get their feedback. My scope in this space is so wide because I’ve had my eggs in so many baskets online And that I knew that I would be able to bring a good perspective and good input.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they managed to raise $200,000, and with that, Morgan and Zander launched Fanlock earlier this year. Zander handles the technical side, making sure Fanlock works, and Morgan handles the creator side, managing outreach to other creators.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I get to apply that degree that I was considering dropping out to do content for. And it’s, I guess like a full 360, you know, everyone that was like, you should stay in school and finish it out. I guess it came back to be useful because now I can apply it to helping my friends and other people in the space with this really real problem that they have.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This solution isn’t that straightforward though. That’s a new tab: Why is it so hard to take down deepfakes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In May last year, President Trump signed the Take It Down Act, a landmark law that criminalizes the publication of non-consensual intimate imagery, including digital forgeries, aka deep fake porn. It’s one of Congress’s first bipartisan actions to tackle AI-generated content. The law also requires online platforms to implement a removal request system and to take down deep fake porn within 48 hours of a request.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these sites thankfully already had like forms or different reporting mechanisms to report deepfakes, but I think with this act itself, it’s a really good step in the right direction to combat non-consensual deepfake and, you know, props to the government for doing something right for once and actually passing this really quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the Take It Down Act is only enforceable under U.S. jurisdiction, although the EU also has similar laws. But a lot of these sites are based outside of these places, like in Russia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so for like Russia and Chinese sites, it gets a lot harder because they don’t have any need to comply either like deep fake penalties or DMCA because it’s specifically like USA, EU jurisdiction typically. And that makes it a lot hard to get content down off those sites if it’s even possible at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a few things you can do for these sites. There’s been some sites I know firsthand that they use, let’s say, a USA-based company for their notification system. We’re able to submit basically a DMCA to those companies, basically being like, hey, just so you know, you’re aiding in copyright infringement by working with this client. If we were to take it a step further, we could always issue a DMC subpoena to them if they use Google Analytics, for example, to straight to Google. And that would help us get more information about… The actual emails of the site, who this person actually is. So if they’re in the EU or USA, we can take those legal routes. Obviously there’s sites I know that are pretty much, they’re built from the ground up for piracy and it’s pretty much impossible to get those stuff down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the more difficult aspects of tackling deepfakes is catching them before Google indexes them, basically, storing web pages in its own database so they appear in search results. Because when something appears in search results, it spreads like wildfire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google updated its search functions a few years ago to identify deepfakes and prevent them from appearing at the top of search results, but there are still deepfakess that slip through the cracks. Zander said that Fanlock keeps tabs on specific sites that have histories of hosting non-consensual deepfakes. They scan them and send takedown demands, before they hit Google search results.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, no one wants their family Googling them or something and they see deep fakes of them all over Google Images.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know Fanlock also relies on a lot of facial recognition technology to identify leaked content and deepfakes. Obviously, this technology is very controversial. It’s often used in law enforcement and has a lot connections to surveillance. But what are your thoughts on this use of facial-recognition technology?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, obviously, if a creator signs up for our platform and we’re doing it in a consensual manner, I think that’s great. I obviously am big anti-surveillance, but I think the the key word at the end of the day is just consent, which is like the fundamental problem that I think these creators are having. And if they’re consenting to a service to take down stuff that was made non-consensually, I think, that’s why our creators are okay with it. And I think there’s a big differentiation between that and then, you know, some tech company scanning my face to see if I’m a criminal or something like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to talk about some of the technical challenges that still exist. You mentioned trying to build a Telegram scanner right now. A lot of non-consensual deep fake porn is passed around in closed channels on Discord or group chats or Telegram. Do either of you have any experience with this happening? Like, what is the approach here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we were building FanLock, I was like, Telegram is, like, the final boss of piracy. I really want to build a solution that while we can’t scan a hundred percent of Telegram, I want to build the absolute most, like I guess comprehensive Telegram scanner we can based on like what’s publicly available and what providers there are to us. So for Telegram, typically for like private groups and stuff like that, you’re able to join them if you have like a join link, which we’ve kind of gotten from people being like, ‘hey, I got leaks here, join my channel.’ And after we get the join link we’re able to figure out where copyrighted content is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We already do have our Telegram scanner up. You know, we have about 11 million channels, you know, from our own services, but also third party providers that we use that have kind of indexed Telegram for us, which is great. Discord is a little bit trickier because it’s a TOS breach to use any sort of like bot activity on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TOS is Terms of Service, the contract between a platform like Telegram and its users.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, like on Discord, if someone has a link that they’ve noticed that they want down, they can submit it to us and then we can do it from there. We currently don’t scan Discord because it is like a TOS breach to do, but we’re hoping as, like I said, as we grow that door can open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Overall, what hurdles still exist when it comes to taking down deepfakes? Like what’s the kind of like technical white whale you’re still chasing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’d say the biggest thing that we’re trying to roll out is actually identifying who leaked or who deep faked XYZ content. I think if we were able to do that, we might, I wouldn’t say solve the piracy problem, but definitely lower it. You know, we’re really hoping we can get in talks with, you know, platforms like OF, Fansly or Instagram and stuff like that, uh, to roll out a technology that we’re working on where basically it embeds like an invisible watermark into different images and stuff like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if it is leaked or if it has deep faked or if someone else’s face has put on it, they’re able to know who exactly posted it based off this invisible embedded technology, which already exists for sites like Netflix. It’s how they track like video, uh, I guess leaks or, you know, from studios that maybe have like a trailer for the new Avengers movie and they want to track if it got leaked on X or anything like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if we’re able to get that done, like I feel like we’d significantly fix the problem and be a lot more proactive. Because I mean, if people start realizing, ‘oh shoot, if I leak or deep fake content, my account gets banned. Like, it’s going to really throw a wrench in the whole leak ecosystem. And that’s what we’re really trying to build towards right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re coming from very different sides of the internet, kind of, whether in the safe work side or the adult content industry. But this is also a problem that deeply affects both of your spheres of the creator economy. How has the proliferation of deepfake porn changed the creator industry for you? And what would you say to someone who’s afraid to keep posting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The unfortunate thing is it’s such an uphill battle when it comes to deepfaked and leaked content, especially with AI getting as good as it is right now. But to somebody who is kind of scared to post right now, just know that there are people who are trying to find solutions to this kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for these people who are generating this kind of content, it’s very much about their own sense of control. It doesn’t reflect you as a creator. You shouldn’t be afraid to post what you want because of this horrible threat of somebody taking your content and basically twisting it into something that you didn’t consent to. And hopefully our government can kind of catch up with this kind of stuff here pretty soon. But there are people like me and Zander who are trying to take real steps to help mitigate this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For creators, I’d say, you know, if you need to, you know, get anything you need for support on it, do it. You know, if you need to take a step back, do it. And then I’d say like, it’s a twofold thing where it’s like, don’t glamorize generative AI video and image content because that only speeds up the industry and then really push for better legislation and, you know, call your Senator, call your Congressman, like get it passed. Because It’s only going to get worse as it gets easier and it’s able to be done for more people. I think those are probably the two biggest things a creator can do right now that has like an actual like tangible impact to halt this problem or make it slow down at least.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, thank you both so much for talking about all of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgpie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zander Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you or someone you know has been targeted with deep fake porn, there are ways to have it removed. Fanlock also has free guides for creators navigating this problem. Check the show notes for more. We’ll link to a few resources about the Take It Down Act and how to remove non-consensual intimate imagery. For now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. The Close All tabs team also includes producer Maya Cueva and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Friday, May 8, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ron Eby spent 20 years in the Navy before he retired from his role as a commander. But after a while, he got bored – so he signed up for a new covert mission. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kazu.org/kazu-news/2026-05-07/a-retired-navy-commander-a-stakeout-and-a-new-understanding-of-sea-otters-in-elkhorn-slough\">Looking for otters.\u003c/a> Not enemy warships, but threatened sea otters, as a volunteer with the Elkhorn Slough Reserve in Moss Landing. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">U.S. Senator Adam Schiff and Central Coast Congressman Salud Carbajal joined Chumash Coastal Band leaders and environmental groups on the Central Coast Thursday. They criticized the Trump administration’s support for restarting an oil pipeline linked to the 2015 Refugio spill. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kazu.org/kazu-news/2026-05-07/a-retired-navy-commander-a-stakeout-and-a-new-understanding-of-sea-otters-in-elkhorn-slough\">\u003cstrong>A retired Navy commander, a stakeout, and a new understanding of sea otters in Elkhorn Slough\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On a cloudy morning in early April, Ron Eby and a couple other volunteers from the Elkhorn Slough National Estuarine Research Reserve (ESNERR) head out into the calm, blue waters of Elkhorn Slough in a very quiet electric boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately, they’re surrounded by wildlife—a pile of barking sea lions, an eared grebe, harbor seals. Then, after just a few minutes, the main attraction. “There’s the otter right in front of us,” Eby says as he slows the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A furry brown southern sea otter splashes around in the estuary. Eby spent 20 years in the Navy before he retired from his role as a commander. But after a while, he got bored. So he signed up for a new covert mission. “To go out there in the middle of the night, park, turn the lights off, kind of hide,” Eby said. And look for otters. Not enemy warships—but threatened sea otters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that surveillance led to new understandings about the marine mammals once hunted nearly to extinction for their uniquely warm coats. Twenty years ago, scientists thought these otters typically lived in the ocean. But Eby and his friend Robert Scoles, a retired sheriff’s deputy, weren’t so sure. “We would see things that didn’t fit what they were saying,” Eby said. Like otter footprints and scat on the Elkhorn Slough shore. And that made them curious. They’d just started volunteering at the estuary, and they wondered—if the otters mostly just visited, why were there so many footprints? “After all my time in the Navy and Robert’s time as a sheriff, you kind of like to check things out,” Eby said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For two years, twice a month, Eby and Scoles staked out the otters overnight. No one had ever monitored the animals like this. The pair discovered that many of the otters scientists thought were visiting the estuary were actually residents. And the otters did something called “hauling out”—when they scoot out of the water and onto land as a way to rest and warm up. “And we found that otters here in Elkhorn Slough were healthier by far than all the otters along the coast,” Eby said, because they don’t have to worry about predators, and food is abundant. “So that really was a breakthrough.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All the monitoring by Eby and Scoles changed scientists’ understanding of otters. For example, they realized that the estuary—which is quiet and undeveloped, unlike a lot of California’s coastline—gave the otters more opportunities to haul out. This discovery led to other research showing that not only do otters thrive in estuaries, but they’re part of an important food chain that helps the rest of the ecosystem thrive, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Lawmakers, environmental activists denounce restart of pipeline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>U.S. Senator Adam Schiff and Central Coast Congressman Salud Carbajal joined Chumash Coastal Band leaders and environmental groups on the Central Coast Thursday. They criticized the Trump administration’s support for restarting an oil pipeline linked to the 2015 Refugio spill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Speakers at a Santa Barbara rally accused the Trump administration and Sable Offshore Corporation of bypassing California environmental protections to restart the aging pipeline system. The pipeline was shut down after the 2015 spill released more than 100,000 gallons of crude oil along the Santa Barbara County coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Schiff said the issue goes beyond politics. “President Nixon himself, and this shows you how far the Republican Party has moved from those roots, spoke of the obligation that we had to protect the environment and how this was not just a California or a Santa Barbara issue. This is really a national issue,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sable said the pipeline is safe. However, environmental groups and Chumash Coastal Band tribal leaders warned another spill could threaten marine ecosystems, fisheries, and coastal communities statewide.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For two years, twice a month, Eby and Scoles staked out the otters overnight. No one had ever monitored the animals like this. The pair discovered that many of the otters scientists thought were visiting the estuary were actually residents. And the otters did something called “hauling out”—when they scoot out of the water and onto land as a way to rest and warm up. “And we found that otters here in Elkhorn Slough were healthier by far than all the otters along the coast,” Eby said, because they don’t have to worry about predators, and food is abundant. “So that really was a breakthrough.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All the monitoring by Eby and Scoles changed scientists’ understanding of otters. For example, they realized that the estuary—which is quiet and undeveloped, unlike a lot of California’s coastline—gave the otters more opportunities to haul out. This discovery led to other research showing that not only do otters thrive in estuaries, but they’re part of an important food chain that helps the rest of the ecosystem thrive, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Lawmakers, environmental activists denounce restart of pipeline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>U.S. Senator Adam Schiff and Central Coast Congressman Salud Carbajal joined Chumash Coastal Band leaders and environmental groups on the Central Coast Thursday. They criticized the Trump administration’s support for restarting an oil pipeline linked to the 2015 Refugio spill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Speakers at a Santa Barbara rally accused the Trump administration and Sable Offshore Corporation of bypassing California environmental protections to restart the aging pipeline system. The pipeline was shut down after the 2015 spill released more than 100,000 gallons of crude oil along the Santa Barbara County coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Schiff said the issue goes beyond politics. “President Nixon himself, and this shows you how far the Republican Party has moved from those roots, spoke of the obligation that we had to protect the environment and how this was not just a California or a Santa Barbara issue. This is really a national issue,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sable said the pipeline is safe. However, environmental groups and Chumash Coastal Band tribal leaders warned another spill could threaten marine ecosystems, fisheries, and coastal communities statewide.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545?mt=2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Listen to this and more in-depth storytelling by subscribing to The California Report Magazine podcast.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082926/californias-governors-race-remains-wide-open-heres-what-to-know-before-the-primary\">California’s Governor’s Race Remains Wide Open. Here’s What to Know Before the Primary\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From controversies to campaign promises, California’s governor’s race is national news. And with ballots landing in mailboxes already, the race is still a toss-up — with eight candidates vying for the state’s top job. We sit down with KQED political correspondents Guy Marzorati and Marisa Lagos to hear more about the candidates and what we should look for in the final weeks before Election Day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082596/in-northern-californias-maternity-desert-a-humboldt-midwife-offers-intimate-births\">\u003cb>In Northern California’s Maternity Desert, a Humboldt Midwife Offers Intimate Births\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite being the nation’s most populous state, there’s increasingly fewer places to give birth. In rural areas, giving birth can be difficult and dangerous as local hospitals shut down maternity wards. In Humboldt County, some women now travel hours in labor to reach the nearest delivery room. One small birth center in Eureka is trying to fill that gap with a different approach to care. There, midwives spend more time with patients and offer a calmer, more personal setting for births. It’s a model that could help address the state’s growing maternity care crisis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 16px;font-weight: 400\">[ad fullwidth]\u003c/span>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545?mt=2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Listen to this and more in-depth storytelling by subscribing to The California Report Magazine podcast.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"routes-Site-routes-Post-Title-__Title__title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082926/californias-governors-race-remains-wide-open-heres-what-to-know-before-the-primary\">California’s Governor’s Race Remains Wide Open. Here’s What to Know Before the Primary\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From controversies to campaign promises, California’s governor’s race is national news. And with ballots landing in mailboxes already, the race is still a toss-up — with eight candidates vying for the state’s top job. We sit down with KQED political correspondents Guy Marzorati and Marisa Lagos to hear more about the candidates and what we should look for in the final weeks before Election Day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082596/in-northern-californias-maternity-desert-a-humboldt-midwife-offers-intimate-births\">\u003cb>In Northern California’s Maternity Desert, a Humboldt Midwife Offers Intimate Births\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite being the nation’s most populous state, there’s increasingly fewer places to give birth. In rural areas, giving birth can be difficult and dangerous as local hospitals shut down maternity wards. In Humboldt County, some women now travel hours in labor to reach the nearest delivery room. One small birth center in Eureka is trying to fill that gap with a different approach to care. There, midwives spend more time with patients and offer a calmer, more personal setting for births. It’s a model that could help address the state’s growing maternity care crisis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 16px;font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Between her two young toddlers, her work as a seaweed farmer on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/humboldt-county\">Humboldt County’s \u003c/a>coast, and a third baby on the way, Leslie Booher doesn’t have a lot of spare time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But her prenatal appointments with her \u003ca href=\"https://midwifemade.com/2509-2/\">midwife, Laura Doyle\u003c/a>, give Booher the opportunity to really focus on the pregnancy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For me, feeling more informed and curious makes you feel much more empowered in your body,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike the \u003ca href=\"https://www.uclahealth.org/medical-services/birthplace/pregnancy-newborn-health/prenatal-education/your-pregnancy/schedule-prenatal-care\">typical\u003c/a> 10- to 15-minute OB check-up, Booher and Doyle spent a full hour together in early March, chatting on a comfortable sofa at \u003ca href=\"https://www.moonstonemidwives.com/\">Moonstone Midwives Birth Center\u003c/a> in Eureka, California. The cozy room where they met has kids’ toys in one corner, calm pastel-colored paintings on the wall, and feels more like a friend’s living room than a clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle listened to the baby’s heartbeat, took Booher’s blood pressure, and reviewed her blood test results. The midwife also asked about Booher’s stress levels, whether she’s exercising, and if she’s getting enough time to herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082734\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082734 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Midwife Laura Doyle measures expecting parent Leslie Booher’s fundal height during an appointment at Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In prenatal care, what I am learning the most is who this person is,” Doyle said. “Yes, I look at blood work. Yes, I’m feeling babies and their growth. More importantly, I’m like: ‘Who are you? What are the relationships like in your life? Are you supported? Are you fearful?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She continued: “Every little story I get out of somebody is like telling me so much about how they are, and often, how their birth will be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across California, and across the U.S., there are now fewer places in which to give birth. Hospitals — facing rising costs, staff shortages and falling birth rates — are \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2024/09/new-maternity-care-closures/\">closing\u003c/a> maternity wards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rural parts of the state are especially impacted: many women in these regions must travel for hours in labor to give birth, which can cause \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciline.org/public-health/obstetric-care-rural-america/\">serious complications\u003c/a> for moms and babies, including a \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciline.org/public-health/obstetric-care-rural-america/\">higher risk\u003c/a> of pre-term births, c-sections and infant deaths. In California, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CFH/DMCAH/Pages/Health-Topics/Pregnancy-Related-Mortality.aspx\">maternal mortality rate\u003c/a> is higher in rural communities than in urban areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Humboldt and other northwestern parts of the state, two hospitals have closed their labor and delivery units in the past five years, leaving the entire county with just one hospital in which to give birth, Providence St. Joseph in Eureka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12007627 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/AGBontaAP1-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People are coming from a couple hours [away] to have their babies,” Doyle said. “We only have one hospital that is doing deliveries for hours in every direction. It’s super stressful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abundant research has shown that midwifery care leads to \u003ca href=\"https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/the-value-of-midwives-during-prenatal-care-and-birth/\">better\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29944777/\">outcomes\u003c/a> for many of these challenges. As medically-trained healthcare professionals, midwives offer a different kind of care that can help meet this need. They can place IVs, do sutures, and give antibiotics — but they don’t administer epidurals or perform c-sections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doing unmedicated birth means we’re relying on preventative care, so good nutrition, really good sleep, low stress and getting these babies in an optimal position,” Doyle said. “Unfortunately, standard medical practice doesn’t have time for that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And they offer women longer prenatal appointments, safe birth outside a hospital setting, and regular postpartum check-ups —a crucial time, because \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK592630/\">most pregnancy-related deaths\u003c/a> occur in the postpartum period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the vast majority of people can’t afford midwifery care. Midwives are not covered by most insurers, and incredibly low reimbursement rates mean that most midwives also can’t accept low-income clients on Medi-Cal. Holly Smith, a midwife and co-lead of \u003ca href=\"https://www.midwiferyaccessca.org/\">Midwifery Access California\u003c/a>, estimated that Medi-Cal reimburses around $3,000 per birth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Midwives across the state have told us that the minimum they need is $7,000-$8,000 per birth, in order to sustain their practice,” said Smith, adding that the actual cost is around $14,000-$15,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle has found a way to serve low-income families in Humboldt, where the median household income is about 60% of the state median.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always say, we’re all working hard to be poor,” Doyle said. “The stress is real for most people in this community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082736\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12082736\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Midwife Laura Doyle at Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082737\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082737 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Midwife Laura Doyle (right) chats with expecting parent Kaylee Biane and her daughter Josie in the waiting room at Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After a year of meetings, Doyle was able to negotiate a better deal with the local Medi-Cal payer in Humboldt, Partnership Healthplan. This makes her birth center one of the very few in California able to accept low-income families. Around 75% of current Moonstone clients are on Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s so frustrating to know that you can only have this if you can afford it,” said Doyle. “That is just wrong. Everybody should have access to good midwifery care. It’s really been the motivator of my career: people should be empowered in their birth experience no matter who they are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moonstone is located opposite Humboldt’s last remaining labor and delivery ward, at Providence St. Joseph, so that if a birthing person wants an epidural, needs surgery or the baby has to go to the NICU, the transfer is quick and easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve always been able to reach out to doctors and consult with them,” Doyle said, of the hospital staff. “We’ve built that rapport; they trust us and we trust them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Community midwives, meaning those who don’t work in a hospital, attend around \u003ca href=\"https://www.chcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/MaternityCareAlmanac2023.pdf\">1% of births\u003c/a> in California — but \u003ca href=\"https://www.chcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ListeningMothersCAFullSurveyReport2018.pdf\">research\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.chcf.org/resource/advancing-midwifery-birth-equity-california/\">has shown\u003c/a> that more birthing people would like to have this kind of care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some women seek midwifery care because they’ve had a difficult experience in the hospital. Claire Henderson gave birth at Mad River Community Hospital nearby in Arcata, before it closed its maternity ward in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had three birthing rooms and at that time I think nine babies were being born, or were just born, so there was no room for me,” Henderson said. “But I was in full labor, so they stuck me in this little exam room we called a ‘closet,’ and that’s where I had my baby.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Henderson said she felt unheard by the hospital staff, who kept offering her medicine she didn’t want. Even though her baby was born healthy, she felt overwhelmed — so when she got pregnant a second time, she knew she wanted a midwife instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe in hospital births, but I knew I wanted a natural, physiological birth,” she said, “uninterrupted as much as possible, and to have everything calm down.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080800 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/20260309_MIGNON_20-KQED.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Moonstone, Henderson gave birth in a birth suite with the lights dimmed low. “I was very present in my body and brain. The midwives checked the baby here and there, but I wasn’t on continuous monitoring — they left us alone a lot of the time. I was laughing in between contractions. It felt so natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even so, Henderson said: “Birth is really hard. It was still one of the most intense pains of my life. But I didn’t need anything for [it]. I just needed to feel secure and safe – and that was my team and the environment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle said she gave birth to her first baby at home in a very remote area, supported by midwives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The most impactful thing was their patience, and [the way they] really listened to me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle trained as a midwife herself and after many years of attending home births, she opened Moonstone with \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">co-owner Calista Young\u003c/span> in 2014. It’s still the county’s only birth center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we have a really unique culture in Humboldt,” she said. “I always call it the ‘707 culture.’ It’s like a different way of being, and a lot of it was driven by the outlaw culture of marijuana growing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle believes that mindset has influenced birthing people’s approach to their healthcare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these women are like, ‘No, I’m not doing that. I’m declining this, I’m declining that,” she said. “‘I want to do it this way.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082740\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12082740\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The exterior of Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. The midwives moved to this location in January of 2026 in order to be closer to Providence St. Joseph, the one remaining hospital with a labor and delivery unit in Humboldt county. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On a typical day at the birth center, pregnant women will come in for their check-ups or group prenatal classes, while new moms can join postpartum support groups. Moonstone has two birth suites which resemble hotel rooms: comfy queen beds and large tubs for water birth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Occasionally a mom will drop by with her newborn and a box of cookies or muffins for the midwives, as a little token of thanks. Doyle has lost count of how many babies she’s delivered, but estimated she’s passed the 1,000 mark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can tell that’s what’s happened when I’m going through the grocery store,” she said, laughing, “because I see everybody and it’s hard to get anywhere, which is the sweet thing about being in a small town.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Clare Wiley is a Los Angeles based reporter covering women’s health. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was co-published and supported by the journalism nonprofit the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F705e1645.streak-link.com%2FC1mohHHz81VdDMSRUwkUFhI3%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.economichardship.org%252F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C2df2b5528d9e466cdb2608de94ebfbf4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639111938429288639%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0NPfR6pRTwbXNJHuUbcNiAt3kkjrCO%2Bl7shM6fBqucc%3D&reserved=0\">\u003cem>Economic Hardship Reporting Project\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike the \u003ca href=\"https://www.uclahealth.org/medical-services/birthplace/pregnancy-newborn-health/prenatal-education/your-pregnancy/schedule-prenatal-care\">typical\u003c/a> 10- to 15-minute OB check-up, Booher and Doyle spent a full hour together in early March, chatting on a comfortable sofa at \u003ca href=\"https://www.moonstonemidwives.com/\">Moonstone Midwives Birth Center\u003c/a> in Eureka, California. The cozy room where they met has kids’ toys in one corner, calm pastel-colored paintings on the wall, and feels more like a friend’s living room than a clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle listened to the baby’s heartbeat, took Booher’s blood pressure, and reviewed her blood test results. The midwife also asked about Booher’s stress levels, whether she’s exercising, and if she’s getting enough time to herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082734\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082734 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_08-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Midwife Laura Doyle measures expecting parent Leslie Booher’s fundal height during an appointment at Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In prenatal care, what I am learning the most is who this person is,” Doyle said. “Yes, I look at blood work. Yes, I’m feeling babies and their growth. More importantly, I’m like: ‘Who are you? What are the relationships like in your life? Are you supported? Are you fearful?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She continued: “Every little story I get out of somebody is like telling me so much about how they are, and often, how their birth will be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across California, and across the U.S., there are now fewer places in which to give birth. Hospitals — facing rising costs, staff shortages and falling birth rates — are \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2024/09/new-maternity-care-closures/\">closing\u003c/a> maternity wards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rural parts of the state are especially impacted: many women in these regions must travel for hours in labor to give birth, which can cause \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciline.org/public-health/obstetric-care-rural-america/\">serious complications\u003c/a> for moms and babies, including a \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciline.org/public-health/obstetric-care-rural-america/\">higher risk\u003c/a> of pre-term births, c-sections and infant deaths. In California, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CFH/DMCAH/Pages/Health-Topics/Pregnancy-Related-Mortality.aspx\">maternal mortality rate\u003c/a> is higher in rural communities than in urban areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Humboldt and other northwestern parts of the state, two hospitals have closed their labor and delivery units in the past five years, leaving the entire county with just one hospital in which to give birth, Providence St. Joseph in Eureka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People are coming from a couple hours [away] to have their babies,” Doyle said. “We only have one hospital that is doing deliveries for hours in every direction. It’s super stressful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abundant research has shown that midwifery care leads to \u003ca href=\"https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/the-value-of-midwives-during-prenatal-care-and-birth/\">better\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29944777/\">outcomes\u003c/a> for many of these challenges. As medically-trained healthcare professionals, midwives offer a different kind of care that can help meet this need. They can place IVs, do sutures, and give antibiotics — but they don’t administer epidurals or perform c-sections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doing unmedicated birth means we’re relying on preventative care, so good nutrition, really good sleep, low stress and getting these babies in an optimal position,” Doyle said. “Unfortunately, standard medical practice doesn’t have time for that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And they offer women longer prenatal appointments, safe birth outside a hospital setting, and regular postpartum check-ups —a crucial time, because \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK592630/\">most pregnancy-related deaths\u003c/a> occur in the postpartum period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the vast majority of people can’t afford midwifery care. Midwives are not covered by most insurers, and incredibly low reimbursement rates mean that most midwives also can’t accept low-income clients on Medi-Cal. Holly Smith, a midwife and co-lead of \u003ca href=\"https://www.midwiferyaccessca.org/\">Midwifery Access California\u003c/a>, estimated that Medi-Cal reimburses around $3,000 per birth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Midwives across the state have told us that the minimum they need is $7,000-$8,000 per birth, in order to sustain their practice,” said Smith, adding that the actual cost is around $14,000-$15,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle has found a way to serve low-income families in Humboldt, where the median household income is about 60% of the state median.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always say, we’re all working hard to be poor,” Doyle said. “The stress is real for most people in this community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082736\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12082736\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_16-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Midwife Laura Doyle at Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082737\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12082737 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_29-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Midwife Laura Doyle (right) chats with expecting parent Kaylee Biane and her daughter Josie in the waiting room at Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After a year of meetings, Doyle was able to negotiate a better deal with the local Medi-Cal payer in Humboldt, Partnership Healthplan. This makes her birth center one of the very few in California able to accept low-income families. Around 75% of current Moonstone clients are on Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s so frustrating to know that you can only have this if you can afford it,” said Doyle. “That is just wrong. Everybody should have access to good midwifery care. It’s really been the motivator of my career: people should be empowered in their birth experience no matter who they are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moonstone is located opposite Humboldt’s last remaining labor and delivery ward, at Providence St. Joseph, so that if a birthing person wants an epidural, needs surgery or the baby has to go to the NICU, the transfer is quick and easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve always been able to reach out to doctors and consult with them,” Doyle said, of the hospital staff. “We’ve built that rapport; they trust us and we trust them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Community midwives, meaning those who don’t work in a hospital, attend around \u003ca href=\"https://www.chcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/MaternityCareAlmanac2023.pdf\">1% of births\u003c/a> in California — but \u003ca href=\"https://www.chcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ListeningMothersCAFullSurveyReport2018.pdf\">research\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.chcf.org/resource/advancing-midwifery-birth-equity-california/\">has shown\u003c/a> that more birthing people would like to have this kind of care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some women seek midwifery care because they’ve had a difficult experience in the hospital. Claire Henderson gave birth at Mad River Community Hospital nearby in Arcata, before it closed its maternity ward in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had three birthing rooms and at that time I think nine babies were being born, or were just born, so there was no room for me,” Henderson said. “But I was in full labor, so they stuck me in this little exam room we called a ‘closet,’ and that’s where I had my baby.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Henderson said she felt unheard by the hospital staff, who kept offering her medicine she didn’t want. Even though her baby was born healthy, she felt overwhelmed — so when she got pregnant a second time, she knew she wanted a midwife instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe in hospital births, but I knew I wanted a natural, physiological birth,” she said, “uninterrupted as much as possible, and to have everything calm down.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Moonstone, Henderson gave birth in a birth suite with the lights dimmed low. “I was very present in my body and brain. The midwives checked the baby here and there, but I wasn’t on continuous monitoring — they left us alone a lot of the time. I was laughing in between contractions. It felt so natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even so, Henderson said: “Birth is really hard. It was still one of the most intense pains of my life. But I didn’t need anything for [it]. I just needed to feel secure and safe – and that was my team and the environment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle said she gave birth to her first baby at home in a very remote area, supported by midwives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The most impactful thing was their patience, and [the way they] really listened to me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle trained as a midwife herself and after many years of attending home births, she opened Moonstone with \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">co-owner Calista Young\u003c/span> in 2014. It’s still the county’s only birth center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we have a really unique culture in Humboldt,” she said. “I always call it the ‘707 culture.’ It’s like a different way of being, and a lot of it was driven by the outlaw culture of marijuana growing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Doyle believes that mindset has influenced birthing people’s approach to their healthcare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of these women are like, ‘No, I’m not doing that. I’m declining this, I’m declining that,” she said. “‘I want to do it this way.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12082740\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12082740\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/KQED_RURALMATERNALHEALTH_HIRES_37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The exterior of Moonstone Midwives Birth Center in Eureka on May 4, 2026. The midwives moved to this location in January of 2026 in order to be closer to Providence St. Joseph, the one remaining hospital with a labor and delivery unit in Humboldt county. \u003ccite>(Alexandra Hootnick for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On a typical day at the birth center, pregnant women will come in for their check-ups or group prenatal classes, while new moms can join postpartum support groups. Moonstone has two birth suites which resemble hotel rooms: comfy queen beds and large tubs for water birth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Occasionally a mom will drop by with her newborn and a box of cookies or muffins for the midwives, as a little token of thanks. Doyle has lost count of how many babies she’s delivered, but estimated she’s passed the 1,000 mark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can tell that’s what’s happened when I’m going through the grocery store,” she said, laughing, “because I see everybody and it’s hard to get anywhere, which is the sweet thing about being in a small town.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Clare Wiley is a Los Angeles based reporter covering women’s health. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was co-published and supported by the journalism nonprofit the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F705e1645.streak-link.com%2FC1mohHHz81VdDMSRUwkUFhI3%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.economichardship.org%252F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C2df2b5528d9e466cdb2608de94ebfbf4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639111938429288639%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0NPfR6pRTwbXNJHuUbcNiAt3kkjrCO%2Bl7shM6fBqucc%3D&reserved=0\">\u003cem>Economic Hardship Reporting Project\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Teaching First Responders About Human Remains Recovery After Wildfires",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Thursday, May 7, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As wildfires become more destructive in California, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/education/2026-05-06/new-fresno-based-training-teaches-first-responders-to-find-human-remains-after-wildfires\">the need for forensic investigations is increasing.\u003c/a> Specifically – the need for finding and identifying bodies after a wildfire. A recent intensive academy at Fresno City College addressed this need by training working professionals. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Advocates are criticizing the state’s tracking of evictions, saying California has failed to accurately count them for decades, and drumming up support for a bill that would more closely monitor it. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Humboldt County Supervisors are looking at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ijpr.org/politics-government/2026-04-30/humboldt-county-sheriff-oversight-committee\">creating a civilian oversight committee\u003c/a> for the sheriff’s office. They’re trying to get ahead of a possible citizen initiative.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/education/2026-05-06/new-fresno-based-training-teaches-first-responders-to-find-human-remains-after-wildfires\">\u003cstrong>New Fresno-based training teaches first responders to find human remains after wildfires\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On a recent morning, Fresno County Deputy Coroner Bianca Torres was kneeling at the base of a burned up car. Nearby was a grisly sight: a skeleton found in the driver’s seat – but not the whole skeleton. “Because that person was seated there in the driver’s seat, we know that we’re missing pieces,” she said – specifically, missing bones. She was looking for bone fragments with a team of professionals including a firefighter, an arson investigator, a forensic anthropologist and a homicide detective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Normally, not all of them would have been doing this work, but they were enrolled in a training – and this scene was staged as part of the inaugural \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.firedeathacademy.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cu>Central California Forensic Fire Death Investigation Academy\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. The intensive, weeklong course took place mid-April at Fresno City College.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As wildfires become more destructive in California, the need for forensic investigations afterward is increasing — specifically, the need for identifying bodies. The academy teaches first responders how to assist and recover human remains after fatal wildfire mass disasters. So as Torres swept and sifted through debris, others were pulling out pieces of the car’s carpet. It was a team effort, because they learned every piece found during an investigation is crucial. “Body preservation, bone preservation, that’s very important to us, the medical examiner and the anthropologists,” Torres said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The five-day academy consisted of three days of lectures that taught attendees how a body burns and how to recover remains without accidentally damaging critical evidence. The last two days, students were set into groups to study a fire scenario and recover the remains within it. Some scenarios simulated houses, while others revolved around cars. Chelsey Juarez, a forensic anthropologist and a professor at Fresno State, led the academy. She said wildfires are becoming increasingly fatal. “As someone who responds to fire, the best time to prepare is right now,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last ten years, at least \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://34c031f8-c9fd-4018-8c5a-4159cdff6b0d-cdn-endpoint.azureedge.net/-/media/calfire-website/our-impact/fire-statistics/top-20-deadliest-ca-wildfires.pdf?rev=0d4612ff0cb447fb827fa0ac6c309d3d&hash=34718653A215C315C5E3CB5BB6A4E550\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cu>180 people\u003c/u>\u003c/a> have died from fires in California, including the Camp and Palisades fires that wiped out parts of Butte and Los Angeles counties. So, Juarez said, if fires at that scale continue, more people might be pulled into investigating wildfire deaths – and she wants them to have a chance to learn before the next big wildfire occurs.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>New report shows gaps in eviction data reporting across the state\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Advocates are criticizing the state’s tracking of evictions, saying California has failed to accurately count them for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://civilinjustice.net/report\">report by Strategic Actions for a Just Economy\u003c/a> covers data on eviction case outcomes in the state dating back to 2010. Its author, Kyle Nelson, said that while evictions are believed to drive homelessness in California, lawmakers are trying to prevent it without complete data. “This invites two questions: why are lawmakers crafting eviction prevention policies without fully understanding eviction data? And how do they know if these policy interventions are working?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, advocates are drumming up support for a bill that would more closely monitor eviction data. SB 1160 would require local courts to provide California’s Judicial Council with information on eviction filings, aggregated by zip code, and require the Council to make that data public. State Senator Maria Elena Durazo supports the legislation. “Essentially we’re navigating homelessness prevention without a map. So this bill shines light on the eviction process by using eviction data from the courts,” Durazo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv>The report shows the counties with the most eviction filings report the least amount of data. It also shows multiple counties file more evictions now than they did prior to the pandemic.\u003c/div>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.ijpr.org/politics-government/2026-04-30/humboldt-county-sheriff-oversight-committee\">\u003cstrong>Humboldt County takes first step toward sheriff oversight panel\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Humboldt County supervisors are considering creating a civilian oversight committee for the sheriff’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Supervisors said they trust current Sheriff William Honsal but argued that now is the time to establish oversight, before any incident could undermine that trust. Supervisor Steve Madrone introduced the idea last month, saying some community members remain skeptical of the department because complaints are investigated internally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the avenue forward to improve that trust,” Madrone said. “I believe that as we improve that trust, it increases the number of people that want to become deputies. Because for them, morale goes up because they’re more trusted in the community by verifiable actions that involves people outside of law enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Honsal pushed back, telling supervisors that existing oversight is sufficient. “Why fix something that’s not broken?” he said. “I’ve yet to hear why, other than you have a small group of people that want to see this because of a potential future incident.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An example ordinance would create a citizen-led committee to review complaints and make recommendations. The group would not have authority over daily operations or personnel decisions. Supervisors said they want to establish the committee themselves, rather than through a ballot measure.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Thursday, May 7, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As wildfires become more destructive in California, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/education/2026-05-06/new-fresno-based-training-teaches-first-responders-to-find-human-remains-after-wildfires\">the need for forensic investigations is increasing.\u003c/a> Specifically – the need for finding and identifying bodies after a wildfire. A recent intensive academy at Fresno City College addressed this need by training working professionals. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Advocates are criticizing the state’s tracking of evictions, saying California has failed to accurately count them for decades, and drumming up support for a bill that would more closely monitor it. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Humboldt County Supervisors are looking at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ijpr.org/politics-government/2026-04-30/humboldt-county-sheriff-oversight-committee\">creating a civilian oversight committee\u003c/a> for the sheriff’s office. They’re trying to get ahead of a possible citizen initiative.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kvpr.org/education/2026-05-06/new-fresno-based-training-teaches-first-responders-to-find-human-remains-after-wildfires\">\u003cstrong>New Fresno-based training teaches first responders to find human remains after wildfires\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On a recent morning, Fresno County Deputy Coroner Bianca Torres was kneeling at the base of a burned up car. Nearby was a grisly sight: a skeleton found in the driver’s seat – but not the whole skeleton. “Because that person was seated there in the driver’s seat, we know that we’re missing pieces,” she said – specifically, missing bones. She was looking for bone fragments with a team of professionals including a firefighter, an arson investigator, a forensic anthropologist and a homicide detective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Normally, not all of them would have been doing this work, but they were enrolled in a training – and this scene was staged as part of the inaugural \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.firedeathacademy.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cu>Central California Forensic Fire Death Investigation Academy\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. The intensive, weeklong course took place mid-April at Fresno City College.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As wildfires become more destructive in California, the need for forensic investigations afterward is increasing — specifically, the need for identifying bodies. The academy teaches first responders how to assist and recover human remains after fatal wildfire mass disasters. So as Torres swept and sifted through debris, others were pulling out pieces of the car’s carpet. It was a team effort, because they learned every piece found during an investigation is crucial. “Body preservation, bone preservation, that’s very important to us, the medical examiner and the anthropologists,” Torres said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The five-day academy consisted of three days of lectures that taught attendees how a body burns and how to recover remains without accidentally damaging critical evidence. The last two days, students were set into groups to study a fire scenario and recover the remains within it. Some scenarios simulated houses, while others revolved around cars. Chelsey Juarez, a forensic anthropologist and a professor at Fresno State, led the academy. She said wildfires are becoming increasingly fatal. “As someone who responds to fire, the best time to prepare is right now,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last ten years, at least \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://34c031f8-c9fd-4018-8c5a-4159cdff6b0d-cdn-endpoint.azureedge.net/-/media/calfire-website/our-impact/fire-statistics/top-20-deadliest-ca-wildfires.pdf?rev=0d4612ff0cb447fb827fa0ac6c309d3d&hash=34718653A215C315C5E3CB5BB6A4E550\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u003cu>180 people\u003c/u>\u003c/a> have died from fires in California, including the Camp and Palisades fires that wiped out parts of Butte and Los Angeles counties. So, Juarez said, if fires at that scale continue, more people might be pulled into investigating wildfire deaths – and she wants them to have a chance to learn before the next big wildfire occurs.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>New report shows gaps in eviction data reporting across the state\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Advocates are criticizing the state’s tracking of evictions, saying California has failed to accurately count them for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://civilinjustice.net/report\">report by Strategic Actions for a Just Economy\u003c/a> covers data on eviction case outcomes in the state dating back to 2010. Its author, Kyle Nelson, said that while evictions are believed to drive homelessness in California, lawmakers are trying to prevent it without complete data. “This invites two questions: why are lawmakers crafting eviction prevention policies without fully understanding eviction data? And how do they know if these policy interventions are working?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, advocates are drumming up support for a bill that would more closely monitor eviction data. SB 1160 would require local courts to provide California’s Judicial Council with information on eviction filings, aggregated by zip code, and require the Council to make that data public. State Senator Maria Elena Durazo supports the legislation. “Essentially we’re navigating homelessness prevention without a map. So this bill shines light on the eviction process by using eviction data from the courts,” Durazo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv>The report shows the counties with the most eviction filings report the least amount of data. It also shows multiple counties file more evictions now than they did prior to the pandemic.\u003c/div>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArtP-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.ijpr.org/politics-government/2026-04-30/humboldt-county-sheriff-oversight-committee\">\u003cstrong>Humboldt County takes first step toward sheriff oversight panel\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Humboldt County supervisors are considering creating a civilian oversight committee for the sheriff’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Supervisors said they trust current Sheriff William Honsal but argued that now is the time to establish oversight, before any incident could undermine that trust. Supervisor Steve Madrone introduced the idea last month, saying some community members remain skeptical of the department because complaints are investigated internally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the avenue forward to improve that trust,” Madrone said. “I believe that as we improve that trust, it increases the number of people that want to become deputies. Because for them, morale goes up because they’re more trusted in the community by verifiable actions that involves people outside of law enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Honsal pushed back, telling supervisors that existing oversight is sufficient. “Why fix something that’s not broken?” he said. “I’ve yet to hear why, other than you have a small group of people that want to see this because of a potential future incident.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An example ordinance would create a citizen-led committee to review complaints and make recommendations. The group would not have authority over daily operations or personnel decisions. Supervisors said they want to establish the committee themselves, rather than through a ballot measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "a-vinyl-found-in-san-francisco-contains-echoes-of-a-filipino-american-love-story",
"title": "A Vinyl Found in San Francisco Contains Echoes of a Filipino American Love Story",
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"headTitle": "A Vinyl Found in San Francisco Contains Echoes of a Filipino American Love Story | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jess Garcia has a little game she and her husband like to play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ll enjoy a big pitcher of margaritas on Valencia Street in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. One day, they were rummaging through the vinyls when they found an album that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cover had hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks, including cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, and the Golden Gate Bridge — all circling a portrait of a Filipino couple wearing a blue suit and a white lace dress. The album title was etched across the top in thick black letters: \u003cem>Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We didn’t really understand what type of album this was at first,” Garcia said. Her first impression was that it was a 50th anniversary album given to their guests as gifts. But when she rushed home to play the record, she realized it was something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[When] the music started playing, it just had this really nostalgic feeling to it,” she said. “Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081475\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081475\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Memorabilia from Cora and Santos Beloy, including a 45 rpm record, photographs and album materials, are arranged together in San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Garcia did a little research and discovered the Beloys recorded their album at \u003ca href=\"https://www.hydestreet.com/history.html\">Wally Heider Studio\u003c/a>, which had once hosted iconic Bay Area bands like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, and the Grateful Dead. Garcia had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Indeed, a simple internet search of Cora and Santos Beloy doesn’t yield much information. There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but nothing about Santos’ funeral. You might also find a smattering of Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. On the surface, it all feels pretty mundane. But then you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music, especially their rendition of the classic Filipino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>” — an anthem among Filipinos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDyY7o5weu-YE&start_radio=1\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation. According to Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr, this arrangement was a kind of role reversal because Cora was fluent in Tagalog and Santos was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She could sing in seven languages, and Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song,” Sherr said. “So when you say that opposites attract, I think that they were meant to be together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos also grew up in dramatically different ways. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, while Santos was raised in San Francisco’s Fillmore District. Cora sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. Santos was a young soprano who sang on the radio. Cora immigrated to the US alone at 18, while Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their paths crossed in the early 1950s when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. One night, she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember her saying, ‘Once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it,’” Sherr said. “It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12070415 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251221_JohnColtraneChurch_December_GH-15_qed.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos shared the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together, Sherr said. They had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own, and a little whistle to catch each other’s attention at parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines so Santos could meet Cora’s family. While there, Cora, under her maiden name “Cora Delfino,” recorded a handful of songs with her brother, who was a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, she became a star. Songs like “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPgSFXm9DeI&list=RDHPgSFXm9DeI&start_radio=1\">Silver Moon\u003c/a>” took over Manila airwaves, and her single “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep,” said Sherr. “I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora’s singing aligned with the \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4FlxtqjkBY0tKRUUdjAcEb\">classic kundiman style\u003c/a>, a type of Filipino music — mostly smooth, romantic ballads — sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist by singing in English, a common trend applied to Filipino folk songs at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s something about her songs,” Sherr said. “The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Truly a performer’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When Cora and Santos returned to San Francisco, Cora didn’t try to leverage her mega-hit in the Philippines into a flashy music career stateside. Instead, she prioritized motherhood. Cora was already pregnant with Sherr’s older brother, Chris Beloy, by the time she and Santos returned from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America, working on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along a few years after Chris.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs, Cora never stopped playing music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was just truly a performer,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora once confessed a secret to Cissy about this time when the kids were young. While Sherr and her brother were in school, Cora would get dressed up and sneak out to perform for the shoppers at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians. That surprised Sherr, who had no idea of her mom’s secret performances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out,” Cissy said. “Maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know? Maybe her love of singing … she got to do that as well as be a mom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mall gigs were also surprising to Sherr because at the time, her mom was getting offers for other glamorous, high-profile jobs. At one point, the comedian Phyllis Diller approached Cora for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in San Francisco called \u003ca href=\"https://www.comedyhistory101.com/comedy-history-101/2019/3/4/history-of-the-purple-onion-comedy-club-in-san-francisco\">The Purple Onion\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Cissy said her mother turned the job down, claiming it would interfere with her ability to be present with her family. Instead, Cora only took the so-called “casuals,” referring to gigs that were short-term and close to home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her niche became performing at local hotels, the lead vocalist for big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never got to see her perform because I was just too little,” Sherr said. “I got to see her get dressed. That was the show for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Depending on the night, Cora would don Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Sherr’s favorite, though, was her mom’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000544/\">Carmen Miranda\u003c/a> outfit, a reference to the Brazilian pop star famous for wearing a massive hat with fake fruit piled on top. “I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her father, Santos, loved the spotlight as much as Cora. Back then he would work a full day, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit and join his wife onstage. Over the years, Cora and Santos played restaurants, weddings, and anniversary parties. In 1964, they even decided to record their music. This record had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To this day people tell me ‘Oh, Cora and Santos, ‘Dahil Sa Iyo,’ that was my favorite,’” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081486\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081486\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora Beloy poses with fellow musicians. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Beloys worked on the record with Tom Spinosa, a bandleader who had opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa is the one typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t really want to give him credit because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though her parents loved everybody, they had no desire to work with Spinosa again, Sherr said. Even now, she has a feeling that Spinosa could have helped put her parents on the map in a bigger way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did,” she said. “Here’s my impression, they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, ‘Okay, we did it for the love of music.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos doubled down on their love of music, expanding their reach as a family band around the state, and even performing on cruise ships around the world. Eventually, Cora and Santos landed their most iconic gig as the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Performing alongside stars\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1940s to the 1970s, the Fairmont was a nightly destination for live music. Some of the world’s biggest stars performed at the hotel’s Venetian Room, including Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">famously sang\u003c/a> “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed five nights a week at the New Orleans Room, a cocktail lounge adjacent to the Venetian Room. Its high profile location allowed them to befriend people such as Tony Bennett himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysw4svDmcxc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sherr’s godsister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, still remembers arriving at the Beloys’ house for dinner one night, decades ago, to find the music legend sitting in the Beloys’ living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Tony Bennett] just hung out and we were all laughing” she said. “We had Auntie’s chili; she made lumpias and she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.” And to top it all off, Cora Santos and Tony Bennet played a duet at the living room piano. Ofalsa-Nutter also said that she’d witnessed a similar experience with The Lettermen, whose lead singer \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0124650/bio/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm\">Tony Butala\u003c/a> became a good friend to the Beloys. And one night while performing at the Fairmont, the Beloys invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving the level of mega stardom that surrounded them, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous,” especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Polynesian-themed tiki bar, the Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed their showstopping set on a barge that floated over the Tonga Rooms’s indoor swimming pool, as a synthetic thunderstorm poured around them. Cora knew how to work a crowd, and Santos entranced the audience by playing multiple instruments at once. The performance was so elaborate, it garnered a kind of cult following. One of their fans included the man their niece, Ange Beloy Wesley, was dating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He went in there once and saw them, and so he just kept going back,” Wesley said. She hadn’t known that her now-husband was a fan of her aunt and uncle until she introduced them for the first time. “‘[Are they] the little Filipino couple on the boat,’” she recalled him asking her. “He’s going, ‘They are a bad ass couple!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081484\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081484\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora and Santos Beloy performing the traditional Filipino bamboo dance. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wesley’s husband wasn’t the only one taken by Cora and Santos. Sherr said that more than once, her parents would return from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who had jumped into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though Sherr remembers these performances with nostalgia, she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job at the bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It must have been hard to come home, power nap, and then go 9 to 1 at the Fairmont Hotel,” she said. “I think a lot of it he did for Mom because it was Mom’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building community out of music\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Aside from music, Sherr said her mom’s other dream was to have a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church, several blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset. In the early 1960s, Cora and Santos became advisors for the church teen program, chaperoning dozens of kids to bowling nights and ski trips. Cora also ran the children’s choir, and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There weren’t any Filipinos – very few Filipino people in the parish,” Sherr said. “So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people,” Cissy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, Cora and Santos also provided music lessons to countless children around the neighborhood. Oftentimes, the couple would give away instruments for free, just to ensure their students had access to music all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of course, they also taught music to their family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had specific lessons. They made sure of that,” said Cora and Santos’ niece, Chelle Lindahl. “There was a set time and then we practiced every day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl’s parents divorced when she was about 8 years old. Soon after, her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed raising three young girls. So Lindahl and her sisters, including Wesley, went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They took on the parent roles,” Lindahl said. “They had two children of their own, and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that … That was incredibly generous on their part.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Auntie and uncle had taken over so fiercely,” Wesley agreed. “We were living in a good environment, we were fed and clothed, and all our needs were met.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl and Wesley said that their aunt and uncle made them feel special during a time when they especially needed love and tending to. They performed alongside Cora and Santos at weddings and The Tonga Room. And Cora, who had begun writing jingles for local businesses, invited the girls to record what she had written for a popular local burger chain — Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life,” said Lindahl. “Just no way. And it was just them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Recording an album on their own terms\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, after several years performing at the Fairmont Hotel, Cora and Santos released their only full-length record — In Baghdad By The Bay. The title is a reference to a nickname for San Francisco given by beloved \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> columnist \u003ca href=\"https://www.norcalmediamuseum.org/?page_id=218\">Herb Caen\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Beloys decided to produce this record on their own terms — no middlemen — under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover and invited local musicians to perform with them. Lindahl and Wesley recalled celebrating the album’s release at Cora and Santos’ home in the Inner Sunset.“That was a big, big deal,” Lindahl said. “But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. They were beautiful together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know, Mom just sadly carried on,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081474\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081474\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(From left) Ange Westly, Cissy Sherr and Tisha Nutter, relatives of Cora and Santos Beloy, are photographed with the album In Baghdad By the Bay in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But Cora never stopped performing, taking the stage at nursing homes, birthday parties, and anywhere else she could get her hands on a microphone. Into her nineties, Cora would ask to play the piano at restaurants with in-house entertainment, rather than eat her food. Cora performed her last song in 2022, just weeks before she passed away at 93-years-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical careers in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names, but that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them. They wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sherr acknowledged that people may not have stories about “the famous Cora and Santos,” but they do have stories about the generous couple who wouldn’t accept payment for playing at a wedding or the skillful teachers who instilled a love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos Beloy were legends at the Tonga Room and larger than life figures at home. Their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jess Garcia, has a little game she and her husband like to play…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>They’ll enjoy a big ole pitcher of margaritas on Valencia St in San Francisco, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. They were rummaging through the vinyls one day when they saw something that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>So when we saw this album, obviously it attracted our attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The album cover has these hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks. Cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge – and they’re all circling this portrait of a Filipino couple. It looks like a wedding photo from the 70s or 80s, maybe. He’s in a blue suit with a purple ruffled shirt underneath. She’s in a white lace dress. And in thick black letters, the album title reads “Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>We didn’t really understand like what type of album this was at first. My first impression was that, like maybe it was like a 50th anniversary album that, like they gave out to like friends and family with like just like their favorite songs on it which I thought was like such a cute idea. And then we actually did kind of rush home because we were eager to listen to the album. So when we put it on and the music started playing it just had this like really nostalgic feeling to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>The very first track is Spanish Eyes. And you know, a couple of seconds into the track, Cora and Santos start singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” in the clear: “Spanish Eyes. Teardrops are falling from your Spanish Eyes.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I just thought they were so sweet and I’ve never, you know, I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The couple recorded at a studio called Wally Heider. Some other Iconic Bay Area bands have recorded there. Like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead. Jess had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Jess is right, if you search the names “Cora and Santos Beloy,” you probably won’t find much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Reporter Asal Ehsanipour loves a good mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but not much about Santos’ funeral. A few Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. It all feels pretty mundane. But then… you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And music was everything to this couple. Today we’re digging into the lives and legacy…big and small…of Cora and Santos Beloy. Take it away, Asal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>The song that comes up most is Cora and Santos Beloy’s biggest hit – a rendition of the classic Filippino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Dahil Sa Iyo” in the clear for a moment \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Dahil Sa Iyo is a kind of anthem among Filipinos. Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation… It’s a kind of role reversal – because Cora was fluent in Tagalog, and Santos wasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She could sing in seven languages, // And Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So, when you say that opposites attract, in some ways, I think that they were meant to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s parents were also opposite in the way they’d grown up. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, Santos was raised in the Fillmore. She sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. He was a young soprano, who sang on the radio. Cora was an immigrant, Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So dad grew up so different from mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Their paths finally crossed in the early 50s, when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. And one night… she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I remember her saying, “once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos’ song “Hawaiian Wedding Song” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I knew that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos were crazy about each other. Cissy says it was the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together… The kind where they had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own… and a little whistle so they could get each other’s attention at a party. .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines, so Santos could meet Cora’s family. And while they were there, Cora recorded a handful of songs with her brother – a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, Cora became a star.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Her single, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>,” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 50s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora Delphino singing: “My Song of Love”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep. I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora’s singing was very much in the classic kundiman style. A type of Filipino music – mostly smooth, romantic ballads – sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist, singing in English.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There’s something about her songs. The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Despite her mega hit in the Phillipines, Cora didn’t try to leverage her success into a flashy music career back in San Francisco. Instead, she immediately shifted into mom mode. This was the 1950s. Corae was already pregnant by the time she and Santos got back from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco, and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America. He worked on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along 14 months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs – Cora never stopped playing music. \u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She was like just truly a performer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora once told Cissy a secret about this time. When the kids were in school, she confessed almost wistfully… that she’d sneak out and perform at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>They’d pick her up, bring her down to the mall and they’d be all set up for her to sing for the shoppers going through the mall.I would get home before you did and we never knew she did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy had always thought her mom was doing the dishes and baking cookies while she was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out, maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know. Maybe her love of singing, she got to do that as well as be a mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But it wasn’t just mall jobs. Cora also got offers for glamorous, higher profile jobs. At one point, Cissy said her mom had been approached by the comedian Phyllis Diller for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in the city, called The Purple Onion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I do remember that, because Phylliss Diller, she’s famous, you know. Oh, but mommy’s not gonna do that because that means she won’t be home to cook dinner for us\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Instead, Cora took the so-called “casuals.” Gigs that were short-term and close to home. She started performing at local hotels, singing with the big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Big band music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh… my mom sounded great with a big band.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Those huge jazz ensembles – a dozen or more musicians packed onstage together playing a big brassy sound. This was Cora’s niche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> I never got to see her perform because I was just too little, you know. I got to see her get dressed that was the show for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Depending on the night, Cora would dress in Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Cissy’s favorite, though, was her mom’s Carmen Miranda outfit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Because that big hat had a whole bowl of fruit on the top. And I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>And Santos loved the spotlight as much as Cora. He would work a full day at the bank, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit – and join his wife on stage. And eventually… once the kids got older… they became the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This was during the Fairmont’s heyday… back when it was a nightly destination for live music. The main attraction was the Venetian Room, a glamorous concert hall where some of the world’s biggest stars performed – people like Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett. In fact, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">Tony Bennett first sang “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency at the Venetian Room.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tony Bennet singing “I Left My Heart In San Francisco”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>And then there was, uh, I think there was a little lounge on each side. There was one to the right, a cocktail lounge with live music. And that’s the one mom and dad played in. And it was called the New Orleans Room. And I feel like it was kind of a staging or maybe a waiting area for either if you couldn’t get tickets for the main show or you were waiting to go in that main show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This regular gig adjacent to the Venetian Room meant Cora and Santos befriended all kinds of people. Including…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Tony, just Tony.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s god sister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, is talking about that very same Tony Bennett. She still remembers one night, decades ago, when her Auntie Cora invited the family over for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Just come on over, it’s Monday. Except Tony Bennett was sitting there in the living room. And he just hung out and we were all just laughing. We had Auntie’s chili. She made lumpias and // it was like she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Except on this night, Cora sang a duet with Tony Bennet at the piano in her living room. Casual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>And this not only happened with Tony Bennett, this happened with The Letterman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos became longtime friends with the pop group’s lead singer, Tony Butala. One night, they invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving THAT level of stardom, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous” … especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Rumbling music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>For the uninitiated, The Tonga Room is a Polynesian-themed tiki bar known for extravagant umbrella drinks and an indoor thunderstorm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>When they were about to come out and perform, they would start this thunder and lightning. And then the rain would start coming down. And there would be Auntie Cora, Uncle Santos and they would be on this barge and the barge would come out on this little waterway then the rain would stop and then they would start performing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos start singing: “When I Hear the Church Bells Ringing”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it was just gobsmacking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>This is Chelle Lindahl, Cora and Santos’ niece.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl:\u003c/strong> I know we were just all like, oh, oh my God, look at this. And then Auntie and Uncle are on this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>People would go to the Tonga Room FOR Cora and Santos…they had a bit of a cult following.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora knew how to work a crowd. And when Santos sang… you couldn’t help but pay attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos song “Now That Summer Is Gone” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh, he’s so fun. My dad had this way of playing like three instruments at once. Like three quarters of a one-man band. It was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says that more than once, her parents would come from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who got a little too swept up in the music, and would jump into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy remembers it all with nostalgia. But she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>It must have been hard to come home power nap and then go nine to one at the Fairmont hotel or something // and I think a lot of it he did it for mom because it was mom’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But more than anything, they loved to perform together. Cora and Santos played restaurants, anniversary parties, and cruise ships around the world. Back in 1964, they even decided to record their music – this was before the album our question asker found. This one had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> To this day people tell me “Oh, Cora and Santos, “Dahil Sa Iyo” – that was my favorite, you know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They worked with Tom Spinosa, a big-deal bandleader who’d opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa – not Cora and Santos – is typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the US…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I don’t really want to give him credit. Because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him to be honest with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says her parents loved everybody, but had no desire to work with Spinosa again. She’s got this feeling that the record could have put her parents on the map in a bigger way… Spinosa could have helped with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did\u003cem>. \u003c/em>So I think that maybe they were…here’s my impression, that they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, okay, you know, we did it for the love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>And as it turns out…. their love of music, their desire to build community out of music, would be the \u003cem>\u003cu>real\u003c/u>\u003c/em> legacy of their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos may have had a glamorous onstage life at the Fairmount hotel, befriending famous singers and sparkling under the lights, but Asal Ehsanipour tells us their most lasting legacy may have been on their local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Cissy says her mom had always dreamt of having a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church – just a few blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora ran the children’s choir and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There weren’t any Filipinos, very few Filipino people in the parish, so they were teaching the bamboo dance to people, those kids and their parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>By the 1960s, San Francisco had a sizable Filipino population, but not many lived in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora would teach the moms how to make lumpia, while Santos played poker with the dads. And together the couple gave music lessons to kids all around the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>How many students would you say they had?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh I could not keep, I have no idea. Countless I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Teaching them bass, banjo, piano…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Guitar, ukulele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oftentimes, they’d give away instruments for free, just to ensure kids had access to music all the time. And of course, they made sure their nieces knew music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We had specific lessons. I mean they made sure of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s cousin, Chelle Lindahl again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>There was a set time and then we practiced every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle was Santos’ brother’s kid. Her parents divorced when she was about eight. Then her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed. So the girls went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>And they took on the parent roles. I mean they had two children of their own and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that. That was incredibly generous on their part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle said her aunt and uncle made the girls feel special during a time when they really needed love and tending to. Music was a big part of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that I enjoyed the most was the singing, // And they gave us that opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora had started writing jingles for local businesses. So she invited the girls to record what she’d written for a very popular local burger chain, Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl and Ange Wesley sing together: \u003c/strong>Doggie Diner, nothing’s finer, doggy diners, dog gone good!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We went down to a radio station and recorded it, and then we were kind of famous at school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Under the care of Cora and Santos, the ragged edges of their broken family began to smooth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>They, they just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life. Just no way. And it was just them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They modeled what a loving relationship and happy family looks like… It really set the bar for Chelle and her sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it sounds corny these days, but. They really were it, you know, they embodied it. They really did.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>In 1974… a full decade after “Dahil Sa Iyo” came out, Cora and Santos decided to release their music again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This time, they produced it on their own terms… no middlemen… under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. They called it “In Baghdad By The Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora singing: “I know a great old city down California Way. They call it San Francisco or Baghdad By The Bay.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is the very same record our question asker Jess Garcia found at the thrift store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>I remember just admiring the cover art and they had the cable car on there and I think the bridge is on there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover, and invited local musicians to perform with them. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children. They celebrated in classic Beloy fashion, with a huge party at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I remember being in the living room and like having it presented and everybody’s like ‘oh my god this is amazing.’ you know I mean this was, in this day and age of you can record anything and this and that like to get your songs pressed onto vinyl. That was a big, big deal. But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. Like their voices, they were beautiful together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“In Baghdad by the Bay” ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>I hope it pans to your parents. I want to see them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Come on, pan out, pan it out.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Back at Cissy’s house, she’s showing me a home video of her parents in their later years. They’re performing on a lawn together. It’s a stark contrast to the drama of The Tonga Room… This feels light and casual. No pretenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Always the last song they play, this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>What’s this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr singing: \u003c/strong>Have I told you lately that I love you? Dear, have I told you…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Your mom was looking at your dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Always. Lookit. Watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Home movie sound fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>You know? Mom just sadly carried on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But she never stopped performing. She played at nursing homes, birthday parties — wherever she could get her hands on a microphone, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>We go to a brunch. Boy, my mom was drooling over the piano before the food. She would ask can I play? can I play for everybody? She wanted to play that piano for everybody at the brunch rather than eat, in her 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora performed her last song in 2022… just weeks before she died at 93 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Music fades out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical career in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names. But that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them…they wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>You will talk to so many people and they might not have this story about, oh, the famous Cora and Santos, but they will have a great story. Oh gosh, they played at my wedding and I couldn’t afford to pay them or they wouldn’t let me pay them, but it made it so special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They were legends at the Tonga Room…larger than life figures at home… their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Cora and Santos Beloy were talented local AAPI musicians, who played regularly at the Fairmount Hotel’s Tonga Room in the 1970s. But their most lasting legacy is on their family and friends.\r\n\r\n",
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"title": "A Vinyl Found in San Francisco Contains Echoes of a Filipino American Love Story | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jess Garcia has a little game she and her husband like to play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ll enjoy a big pitcher of margaritas on Valencia Street in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. One day, they were rummaging through the vinyls when they found an album that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cover had hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks, including cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, and the Golden Gate Bridge — all circling a portrait of a Filipino couple wearing a blue suit and a white lace dress. The album title was etched across the top in thick black letters: \u003cem>Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We didn’t really understand what type of album this was at first,” Garcia said. Her first impression was that it was a 50th anniversary album given to their guests as gifts. But when she rushed home to play the record, she realized it was something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[When] the music started playing, it just had this really nostalgic feeling to it,” she said. “Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081475\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081475\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Memorabilia from Cora and Santos Beloy, including a 45 rpm record, photographs and album materials, are arranged together in San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Garcia did a little research and discovered the Beloys recorded their album at \u003ca href=\"https://www.hydestreet.com/history.html\">Wally Heider Studio\u003c/a>, which had once hosted iconic Bay Area bands like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, and the Grateful Dead. Garcia had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Indeed, a simple internet search of Cora and Santos Beloy doesn’t yield much information. There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but nothing about Santos’ funeral. You might also find a smattering of Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. On the surface, it all feels pretty mundane. But then you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music, especially their rendition of the classic Filipino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>” — an anthem among Filipinos.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/yY7o5weu-YE'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/yY7o5weu-YE'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation. According to Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr, this arrangement was a kind of role reversal because Cora was fluent in Tagalog and Santos was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She could sing in seven languages, and Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song,” Sherr said. “So when you say that opposites attract, I think that they were meant to be together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos also grew up in dramatically different ways. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, while Santos was raised in San Francisco’s Fillmore District. Cora sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. Santos was a young soprano who sang on the radio. Cora immigrated to the US alone at 18, while Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their paths crossed in the early 1950s when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. One night, she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember her saying, ‘Once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it,’” Sherr said. “It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos shared the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together, Sherr said. They had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own, and a little whistle to catch each other’s attention at parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines so Santos could meet Cora’s family. While there, Cora, under her maiden name “Cora Delfino,” recorded a handful of songs with her brother, who was a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, she became a star. Songs like “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPgSFXm9DeI&list=RDHPgSFXm9DeI&start_radio=1\">Silver Moon\u003c/a>” took over Manila airwaves, and her single “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep,” said Sherr. “I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora’s singing aligned with the \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4FlxtqjkBY0tKRUUdjAcEb\">classic kundiman style\u003c/a>, a type of Filipino music — mostly smooth, romantic ballads — sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist by singing in English, a common trend applied to Filipino folk songs at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s something about her songs,” Sherr said. “The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Truly a performer’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When Cora and Santos returned to San Francisco, Cora didn’t try to leverage her mega-hit in the Philippines into a flashy music career stateside. Instead, she prioritized motherhood. Cora was already pregnant with Sherr’s older brother, Chris Beloy, by the time she and Santos returned from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America, working on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along a few years after Chris.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs, Cora never stopped playing music.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/M6bkjT4WQHE'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/M6bkjT4WQHE'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>“She was just truly a performer,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora once confessed a secret to Cissy about this time when the kids were young. While Sherr and her brother were in school, Cora would get dressed up and sneak out to perform for the shoppers at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians. That surprised Sherr, who had no idea of her mom’s secret performances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out,” Cissy said. “Maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know? Maybe her love of singing … she got to do that as well as be a mom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mall gigs were also surprising to Sherr because at the time, her mom was getting offers for other glamorous, high-profile jobs. At one point, the comedian Phyllis Diller approached Cora for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in San Francisco called \u003ca href=\"https://www.comedyhistory101.com/comedy-history-101/2019/3/4/history-of-the-purple-onion-comedy-club-in-san-francisco\">The Purple Onion\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Cissy said her mother turned the job down, claiming it would interfere with her ability to be present with her family. Instead, Cora only took the so-called “casuals,” referring to gigs that were short-term and close to home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her niche became performing at local hotels, the lead vocalist for big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never got to see her perform because I was just too little,” Sherr said. “I got to see her get dressed. That was the show for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Depending on the night, Cora would don Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Sherr’s favorite, though, was her mom’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000544/\">Carmen Miranda\u003c/a> outfit, a reference to the Brazilian pop star famous for wearing a massive hat with fake fruit piled on top. “I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her father, Santos, loved the spotlight as much as Cora. Back then he would work a full day, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit and join his wife onstage. Over the years, Cora and Santos played restaurants, weddings, and anniversary parties. In 1964, they even decided to record their music. This record had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To this day people tell me ‘Oh, Cora and Santos, ‘Dahil Sa Iyo,’ that was my favorite,’” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081486\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081486\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora Beloy poses with fellow musicians. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Beloys worked on the record with Tom Spinosa, a bandleader who had opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa is the one typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t really want to give him credit because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though her parents loved everybody, they had no desire to work with Spinosa again, Sherr said. Even now, she has a feeling that Spinosa could have helped put her parents on the map in a bigger way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did,” she said. “Here’s my impression, they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, ‘Okay, we did it for the love of music.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos doubled down on their love of music, expanding their reach as a family band around the state, and even performing on cruise ships around the world. Eventually, Cora and Santos landed their most iconic gig as the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Performing alongside stars\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1940s to the 1970s, the Fairmont was a nightly destination for live music. Some of the world’s biggest stars performed at the hotel’s Venetian Room, including Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">famously sang\u003c/a> “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed five nights a week at the New Orleans Room, a cocktail lounge adjacent to the Venetian Room. Its high profile location allowed them to befriend people such as Tony Bennett himself.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/Ysw4svDmcxc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/Ysw4svDmcxc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Sherr’s godsister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, still remembers arriving at the Beloys’ house for dinner one night, decades ago, to find the music legend sitting in the Beloys’ living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Tony Bennett] just hung out and we were all laughing” she said. “We had Auntie’s chili; she made lumpias and she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.” And to top it all off, Cora Santos and Tony Bennet played a duet at the living room piano. Ofalsa-Nutter also said that she’d witnessed a similar experience with The Lettermen, whose lead singer \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0124650/bio/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm\">Tony Butala\u003c/a> became a good friend to the Beloys. And one night while performing at the Fairmont, the Beloys invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving the level of mega stardom that surrounded them, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous,” especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Polynesian-themed tiki bar, the Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed their showstopping set on a barge that floated over the Tonga Rooms’s indoor swimming pool, as a synthetic thunderstorm poured around them. Cora knew how to work a crowd, and Santos entranced the audience by playing multiple instruments at once. The performance was so elaborate, it garnered a kind of cult following. One of their fans included the man their niece, Ange Beloy Wesley, was dating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He went in there once and saw them, and so he just kept going back,” Wesley said. She hadn’t known that her now-husband was a fan of her aunt and uncle until she introduced them for the first time. “‘[Are they] the little Filipino couple on the boat,’” she recalled him asking her. “He’s going, ‘They are a bad ass couple!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081484\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081484\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora and Santos Beloy performing the traditional Filipino bamboo dance. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wesley’s husband wasn’t the only one taken by Cora and Santos. Sherr said that more than once, her parents would return from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who had jumped into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though Sherr remembers these performances with nostalgia, she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job at the bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It must have been hard to come home, power nap, and then go 9 to 1 at the Fairmont Hotel,” she said. “I think a lot of it he did for Mom because it was Mom’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building community out of music\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Aside from music, Sherr said her mom’s other dream was to have a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church, several blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset. In the early 1960s, Cora and Santos became advisors for the church teen program, chaperoning dozens of kids to bowling nights and ski trips. Cora also ran the children’s choir, and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There weren’t any Filipinos – very few Filipino people in the parish,” Sherr said. “So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people,” Cissy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, Cora and Santos also provided music lessons to countless children around the neighborhood. Oftentimes, the couple would give away instruments for free, just to ensure their students had access to music all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of course, they also taught music to their family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had specific lessons. They made sure of that,” said Cora and Santos’ niece, Chelle Lindahl. “There was a set time and then we practiced every day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl’s parents divorced when she was about 8 years old. Soon after, her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed raising three young girls. So Lindahl and her sisters, including Wesley, went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They took on the parent roles,” Lindahl said. “They had two children of their own, and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that … That was incredibly generous on their part.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Auntie and uncle had taken over so fiercely,” Wesley agreed. “We were living in a good environment, we were fed and clothed, and all our needs were met.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl and Wesley said that their aunt and uncle made them feel special during a time when they especially needed love and tending to. They performed alongside Cora and Santos at weddings and The Tonga Room. And Cora, who had begun writing jingles for local businesses, invited the girls to record what she had written for a popular local burger chain — Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life,” said Lindahl. “Just no way. And it was just them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Recording an album on their own terms\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, after several years performing at the Fairmont Hotel, Cora and Santos released their only full-length record — In Baghdad By The Bay. The title is a reference to a nickname for San Francisco given by beloved \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> columnist \u003ca href=\"https://www.norcalmediamuseum.org/?page_id=218\">Herb Caen\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Beloys decided to produce this record on their own terms — no middlemen — under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover and invited local musicians to perform with them. Lindahl and Wesley recalled celebrating the album’s release at Cora and Santos’ home in the Inner Sunset.“That was a big, big deal,” Lindahl said. “But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. They were beautiful together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know, Mom just sadly carried on,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081474\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081474\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(From left) Ange Westly, Cissy Sherr and Tisha Nutter, relatives of Cora and Santos Beloy, are photographed with the album In Baghdad By the Bay in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But Cora never stopped performing, taking the stage at nursing homes, birthday parties, and anywhere else she could get her hands on a microphone. Into her nineties, Cora would ask to play the piano at restaurants with in-house entertainment, rather than eat her food. Cora performed her last song in 2022, just weeks before she passed away at 93-years-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical careers in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names, but that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them. They wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sherr acknowledged that people may not have stories about “the famous Cora and Santos,” but they do have stories about the generous couple who wouldn’t accept payment for playing at a wedding or the skillful teachers who instilled a love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos Beloy were legends at the Tonga Room and larger than life figures at home. Their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jess Garcia, has a little game she and her husband like to play…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>They’ll enjoy a big ole pitcher of margaritas on Valencia St in San Francisco, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. They were rummaging through the vinyls one day when they saw something that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>So when we saw this album, obviously it attracted our attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The album cover has these hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks. Cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge – and they’re all circling this portrait of a Filipino couple. It looks like a wedding photo from the 70s or 80s, maybe. He’s in a blue suit with a purple ruffled shirt underneath. She’s in a white lace dress. And in thick black letters, the album title reads “Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>We didn’t really understand like what type of album this was at first. My first impression was that, like maybe it was like a 50th anniversary album that, like they gave out to like friends and family with like just like their favorite songs on it which I thought was like such a cute idea. And then we actually did kind of rush home because we were eager to listen to the album. So when we put it on and the music started playing it just had this like really nostalgic feeling to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>The very first track is Spanish Eyes. And you know, a couple of seconds into the track, Cora and Santos start singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” in the clear: “Spanish Eyes. Teardrops are falling from your Spanish Eyes.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I just thought they were so sweet and I’ve never, you know, I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The couple recorded at a studio called Wally Heider. Some other Iconic Bay Area bands have recorded there. Like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead. Jess had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Jess is right, if you search the names “Cora and Santos Beloy,” you probably won’t find much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Reporter Asal Ehsanipour loves a good mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but not much about Santos’ funeral. A few Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. It all feels pretty mundane. But then… you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And music was everything to this couple. Today we’re digging into the lives and legacy…big and small…of Cora and Santos Beloy. Take it away, Asal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>The song that comes up most is Cora and Santos Beloy’s biggest hit – a rendition of the classic Filippino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Dahil Sa Iyo” in the clear for a moment \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Dahil Sa Iyo is a kind of anthem among Filipinos. Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation… It’s a kind of role reversal – because Cora was fluent in Tagalog, and Santos wasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She could sing in seven languages, // And Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So, when you say that opposites attract, in some ways, I think that they were meant to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s parents were also opposite in the way they’d grown up. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, Santos was raised in the Fillmore. She sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. He was a young soprano, who sang on the radio. Cora was an immigrant, Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So dad grew up so different from mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Their paths finally crossed in the early 50s, when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. And one night… she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I remember her saying, “once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos’ song “Hawaiian Wedding Song” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I knew that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos were crazy about each other. Cissy says it was the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together… The kind where they had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own… and a little whistle so they could get each other’s attention at a party. .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines, so Santos could meet Cora’s family. And while they were there, Cora recorded a handful of songs with her brother – a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, Cora became a star.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Her single, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>,” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 50s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora Delphino singing: “My Song of Love”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep. I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora’s singing was very much in the classic kundiman style. A type of Filipino music – mostly smooth, romantic ballads – sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist, singing in English.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There’s something about her songs. The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Despite her mega hit in the Phillipines, Cora didn’t try to leverage her success into a flashy music career back in San Francisco. Instead, she immediately shifted into mom mode. This was the 1950s. Corae was already pregnant by the time she and Santos got back from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco, and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America. He worked on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along 14 months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs – Cora never stopped playing music. \u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She was like just truly a performer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora once told Cissy a secret about this time. When the kids were in school, she confessed almost wistfully… that she’d sneak out and perform at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>They’d pick her up, bring her down to the mall and they’d be all set up for her to sing for the shoppers going through the mall.I would get home before you did and we never knew she did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy had always thought her mom was doing the dishes and baking cookies while she was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out, maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know. Maybe her love of singing, she got to do that as well as be a mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But it wasn’t just mall jobs. Cora also got offers for glamorous, higher profile jobs. At one point, Cissy said her mom had been approached by the comedian Phyllis Diller for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in the city, called The Purple Onion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I do remember that, because Phylliss Diller, she’s famous, you know. Oh, but mommy’s not gonna do that because that means she won’t be home to cook dinner for us\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Instead, Cora took the so-called “casuals.” Gigs that were short-term and close to home. She started performing at local hotels, singing with the big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Big band music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh… my mom sounded great with a big band.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Those huge jazz ensembles – a dozen or more musicians packed onstage together playing a big brassy sound. This was Cora’s niche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> I never got to see her perform because I was just too little, you know. I got to see her get dressed that was the show for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Depending on the night, Cora would dress in Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Cissy’s favorite, though, was her mom’s Carmen Miranda outfit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Because that big hat had a whole bowl of fruit on the top. And I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>And Santos loved the spotlight as much as Cora. He would work a full day at the bank, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit – and join his wife on stage. And eventually… once the kids got older… they became the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This was during the Fairmont’s heyday… back when it was a nightly destination for live music. The main attraction was the Venetian Room, a glamorous concert hall where some of the world’s biggest stars performed – people like Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett. In fact, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">Tony Bennett first sang “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency at the Venetian Room.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tony Bennet singing “I Left My Heart In San Francisco”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>And then there was, uh, I think there was a little lounge on each side. There was one to the right, a cocktail lounge with live music. And that’s the one mom and dad played in. And it was called the New Orleans Room. And I feel like it was kind of a staging or maybe a waiting area for either if you couldn’t get tickets for the main show or you were waiting to go in that main show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This regular gig adjacent to the Venetian Room meant Cora and Santos befriended all kinds of people. Including…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Tony, just Tony.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s god sister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, is talking about that very same Tony Bennett. She still remembers one night, decades ago, when her Auntie Cora invited the family over for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Just come on over, it’s Monday. Except Tony Bennett was sitting there in the living room. And he just hung out and we were all just laughing. We had Auntie’s chili. She made lumpias and // it was like she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Except on this night, Cora sang a duet with Tony Bennet at the piano in her living room. Casual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>And this not only happened with Tony Bennett, this happened with The Letterman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos became longtime friends with the pop group’s lead singer, Tony Butala. One night, they invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving THAT level of stardom, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous” … especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Rumbling music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>For the uninitiated, The Tonga Room is a Polynesian-themed tiki bar known for extravagant umbrella drinks and an indoor thunderstorm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>When they were about to come out and perform, they would start this thunder and lightning. And then the rain would start coming down. And there would be Auntie Cora, Uncle Santos and they would be on this barge and the barge would come out on this little waterway then the rain would stop and then they would start performing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos start singing: “When I Hear the Church Bells Ringing”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it was just gobsmacking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>This is Chelle Lindahl, Cora and Santos’ niece.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl:\u003c/strong> I know we were just all like, oh, oh my God, look at this. And then Auntie and Uncle are on this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>People would go to the Tonga Room FOR Cora and Santos…they had a bit of a cult following.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora knew how to work a crowd. And when Santos sang… you couldn’t help but pay attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos song “Now That Summer Is Gone” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh, he’s so fun. My dad had this way of playing like three instruments at once. Like three quarters of a one-man band. It was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says that more than once, her parents would come from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who got a little too swept up in the music, and would jump into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy remembers it all with nostalgia. But she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>It must have been hard to come home power nap and then go nine to one at the Fairmont hotel or something // and I think a lot of it he did it for mom because it was mom’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But more than anything, they loved to perform together. Cora and Santos played restaurants, anniversary parties, and cruise ships around the world. Back in 1964, they even decided to record their music – this was before the album our question asker found. This one had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> To this day people tell me “Oh, Cora and Santos, “Dahil Sa Iyo” – that was my favorite, you know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They worked with Tom Spinosa, a big-deal bandleader who’d opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa – not Cora and Santos – is typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the US…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I don’t really want to give him credit. Because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him to be honest with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says her parents loved everybody, but had no desire to work with Spinosa again. She’s got this feeling that the record could have put her parents on the map in a bigger way… Spinosa could have helped with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did\u003cem>. \u003c/em>So I think that maybe they were…here’s my impression, that they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, okay, you know, we did it for the love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>And as it turns out…. their love of music, their desire to build community out of music, would be the \u003cem>\u003cu>real\u003c/u>\u003c/em> legacy of their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos may have had a glamorous onstage life at the Fairmount hotel, befriending famous singers and sparkling under the lights, but Asal Ehsanipour tells us their most lasting legacy may have been on their local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Cissy says her mom had always dreamt of having a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church – just a few blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora ran the children’s choir and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There weren’t any Filipinos, very few Filipino people in the parish, so they were teaching the bamboo dance to people, those kids and their parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>By the 1960s, San Francisco had a sizable Filipino population, but not many lived in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora would teach the moms how to make lumpia, while Santos played poker with the dads. And together the couple gave music lessons to kids all around the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>How many students would you say they had?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh I could not keep, I have no idea. Countless I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Teaching them bass, banjo, piano…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Guitar, ukulele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oftentimes, they’d give away instruments for free, just to ensure kids had access to music all the time. And of course, they made sure their nieces knew music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We had specific lessons. I mean they made sure of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s cousin, Chelle Lindahl again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>There was a set time and then we practiced every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle was Santos’ brother’s kid. Her parents divorced when she was about eight. Then her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed. So the girls went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>And they took on the parent roles. I mean they had two children of their own and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that. That was incredibly generous on their part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle said her aunt and uncle made the girls feel special during a time when they really needed love and tending to. Music was a big part of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that I enjoyed the most was the singing, // And they gave us that opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora had started writing jingles for local businesses. So she invited the girls to record what she’d written for a very popular local burger chain, Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl and Ange Wesley sing together: \u003c/strong>Doggie Diner, nothing’s finer, doggy diners, dog gone good!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We went down to a radio station and recorded it, and then we were kind of famous at school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Under the care of Cora and Santos, the ragged edges of their broken family began to smooth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>They, they just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life. Just no way. And it was just them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They modeled what a loving relationship and happy family looks like… It really set the bar for Chelle and her sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it sounds corny these days, but. They really were it, you know, they embodied it. They really did.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>In 1974… a full decade after “Dahil Sa Iyo” came out, Cora and Santos decided to release their music again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This time, they produced it on their own terms… no middlemen… under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. They called it “In Baghdad By The Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora singing: “I know a great old city down California Way. They call it San Francisco or Baghdad By The Bay.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is the very same record our question asker Jess Garcia found at the thrift store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>I remember just admiring the cover art and they had the cable car on there and I think the bridge is on there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover, and invited local musicians to perform with them. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children. They celebrated in classic Beloy fashion, with a huge party at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I remember being in the living room and like having it presented and everybody’s like ‘oh my god this is amazing.’ you know I mean this was, in this day and age of you can record anything and this and that like to get your songs pressed onto vinyl. That was a big, big deal. But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. Like their voices, they were beautiful together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“In Baghdad by the Bay” ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>I hope it pans to your parents. I want to see them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Come on, pan out, pan it out.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Back at Cissy’s house, she’s showing me a home video of her parents in their later years. They’re performing on a lawn together. It’s a stark contrast to the drama of The Tonga Room… This feels light and casual. No pretenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Always the last song they play, this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>What’s this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr singing: \u003c/strong>Have I told you lately that I love you? Dear, have I told you…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Your mom was looking at your dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Always. Lookit. Watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Home movie sound fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>You know? Mom just sadly carried on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But she never stopped performing. She played at nursing homes, birthday parties — wherever she could get her hands on a microphone, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>We go to a brunch. Boy, my mom was drooling over the piano before the food. She would ask can I play? can I play for everybody? She wanted to play that piano for everybody at the brunch rather than eat, in her 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora performed her last song in 2022… just weeks before she died at 93 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Music fades out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical career in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names. But that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them…they wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>You will talk to so many people and they might not have this story about, oh, the famous Cora and Santos, but they will have a great story. Oh gosh, they played at my wedding and I couldn’t afford to pay them or they wouldn’t let me pay them, but it made it so special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They were legends at the Tonga Room…larger than life figures at home… their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Wednesday, May 6, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigration enforcement is affecting recipients of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, or DACA. Since 2012, the program has allowed people brought to the United States as children to stay in the US and work, go to school, and buy property. But \u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2026/04/23/sacramento-dreamer-says-reopened-immigration-case-upended-her-career/\">one Sacramento woman’s life unraveled\u003c/a> within days of learning that her immigration case was being reopened. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The U.S. Department of Education \u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/education/education-department-lausd-teacher-reassignment-misconduct-policy-title-ix\">is investigating\u003c/a> how the Los Angeles Unified School District handles allegations of sexual misconduct involving teachers and students. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom is asking California election officials to \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article315634785.html\">speed up their vote count\u003c/a> in the June primary.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"page-title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2026/04/23/sacramento-dreamer-says-reopened-immigration-case-upended-her-career/\">\u003cstrong>Sacramento Dreamer says reopened immigration case upended her career\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is renewing efforts to dismantle the Obama-era Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, or DACA. The policy currently shields over half a million immigrants brought to the U.S. as children from deportation. Roughly 300 DACA recipients, referred to as Dreamers, have been arrested and dozens have already been deported, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/25-28166%20S1%20SIGNED%20Durbin%20Responses_Durbin.pdf\">February memorandum from the Department of Homeland Security.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Sacramento, one woman lost her job and is dealing with traumatic memories from childhood detention after learning of the sudden reopening of her case. Daniela Valladares Hernandez, \u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2026/04/14/sacramento-daca-recipient-ordered-to-travel-thousands-of-miles-for-court/\">a 28-year-old Dreamer who came to the United States from Honduras as a child\u003c/a>, said her life looked different just weeks ago prior to receiving the letter. She was studying for a life and health insurance professional certification for her finance job, planning a birthday celebration and looking for a volleyball league to join in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, she said she cries herself to sleep most nights. “I held a stainless steel cup and in just holding that I immediately had a flashback to the coldness of the bars and the stuff within the facilities,” Valladares said, recounting her detainment after crossing the border as a 6-year-old. “I was really excited and looking forward to celebrating my birthday. I don’t want to say there’s not much to celebrate, but it almost feels more inhuman to myself to create this illusion that I can have a normal day or a fun day when every day there’s work to do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Valladares was ordered to report in person to an immigration court in Georgia — a state she hasn’t lived in for 10 years — despite having lived in California for four years. She said she requested to transfer the case to Sacramento or appear remotely, but both were denied. Her attorney was allowed to appear remotely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sudden reopening of the case, which she said was administratively closed over a decade ago, has affected nearly every aspect of her life, including her job. Valladares said her employer gave her a choice after learning she could be required to leave for court proceedings or potentially be detained: resign now or risk being fired and barred from working for the company again. “They told me that if I were to get detained and I couldn’t contact my job, it would be considered job abandonment, so ultimately if that happened, I wouldn’t be eligible for rehire,” she said. “However, if I resigned, I could be eligible for rehire one day and focus on fighting my case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She has since received food assistance and legal support from NorCal Resist, a Sacramento-based immigrant advocacy and mutual aid organization. NorCal Resist Program Director Giselle Garcia said a weeks-long battle to get the case moved to California, which included garnering support from Sacramento Congresswoman Doris Matsui, finally paid off. A second motion to change venue was accepted by the Atlanta court last month. But Garcia says that doesn’t mean Valladares’ life is back on track. “She lost a job that she worked very hard to get and to thrive in, she’s facing housing insecurity,” Garcia stressed. “She’s still going to be forced to engage in this procedure that is quite frankly not a fair one. The odds are always stacked against the respondent.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Valladares now has to wait for the Sacramento immigration court to issue a new hearing date. Legal experts and immigration attorneys say it’s difficult to know exactly how many people are in similar situations as Valladares because data from immigration courts is often delayed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArticlePage-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/education/education-department-lausd-teacher-reassignment-misconduct-policy-title-ix\">\u003cstrong>Trump administration opens investigation into LAUSD sexual misconduct policy\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Education is investigating how the Los Angeles Unified School District responds to educators accused of sexual misconduct with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The department accuses the district of maintaining a policy that “automatically” reassigns teachers to other schools when they are accused of sexual misconduct with students and cites a \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/28094823-united-teachers-los-angeles-final-settlement-agreement-2023-100498-df-11-13-24/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>2024 agreement with the teachers union\u003c/u>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Los Angeles Unified spokesperson wrote in a statement that it’s “not true” that staff being investigated for sexual misconduct are reassigned to other school sites. “‘Reassignment’ typically means an employee is directed to remain at home and away from students and schools during an investigation,” the spokesperson wrote. United Teachers Los Angeles called the DOE’s accusations a “fundamental misunderstanding” of the district’s reassignment policy. “[Employees] are not reassigned to another classroom or to any other setting where they would interact with students,” read a statement provided by the union. “This policy protects both students and staff and creates conditions for a thorough and appropriate investigation of allegations.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The federal investigation, overseen by the department’s Office for Civil Rights, will assess whether the district’s policy violates Title IX, a law that \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.ed.gov/laws-and-policy/civil-rights-laws/title-ix-and-sex-discrimination\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>prohibits sex-based discrimination in federally funded education programs\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. Kimberly Richey, the assistant secretary for civil rights, wrote in \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.ed.gov/about/news/press-release/us-department-of-education-opens-title-ix-investigation-los-angeles-unified-school-district\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>a statement\u003c/u>\u003c/a> that Title IX requires schools to address claims of sexual misconduct in a “timely manner.” “It is unconscionable that the district would simply ignore Title IX’s procedural requirements to protect teachers who cause life-changing harm to their kids,” Richey wrote. “The Trump administration will always fight to uphold the law, protect the safety of all students and restore common sense to our schools.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LAUSD protocol related to employee misconduct says administrators must remove accused employees from their classroom or worksite whenever there is a risk to the safety of students or staff. The \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/28094784-bul-0443812-protocols-and-procedures-to-report-reassign-and-investigate-allegations-of-employee-misconduct/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>110-page protocol document\u003c/u>\u003c/a> also lists several other requirements for allegations related to sexual misconduct, including contacting law enforcement and the agencies that license teachers. “Los Angeles Unified takes all allegations of sexual misconduct and harassment with the utmost seriousness,” a spokesperson wrote in a statement. “Our primary responsibility is to ensure the safety, dignity and well-being of every student and staff member in our care.” The statement also said the district follows Title IX procedures and continuously reviews its policies, training and reporting systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Newsom calls on election officials to count ballots faster \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Governor Gavin Newsom is \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/GovPressOffice/status/2051662586165477712\">asking California election officials\u003c/a> to speed up their vote count in the June primary. In a letter to election officials, Newsom said “the longer the voting count takes, the more mis and disinformation spreads.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at a news conference on Tuesday, California Secretary of State Shirley Weber said the speed of the vote count is a balancing act. “We want to count fast, we want to be effective and efficient. But at the same time we want to make sure that we’re accurate,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s vote count has slowed in recent years as voters have overwhelmingly adopted vote-by-mail, which requires verification after ballots are cast. In his letter, Newsom recommended elections officials take advantage of recent laws passed to speed up ballot counting – that includes lengthening the time ballots can be counted before Election Day and giving more regular updates on ballot counts. President Donald Trump and House Speaker Mike Johnson have used the slow count in California to falsely imply the state’s election results are fraudulent.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Here are the morning’s top stories on Wednesday, May 6, 2026\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigration enforcement is affecting recipients of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, or DACA. Since 2012, the program has allowed people brought to the United States as children to stay in the US and work, go to school, and buy property. But \u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2026/04/23/sacramento-dreamer-says-reopened-immigration-case-upended-her-career/\">one Sacramento woman’s life unraveled\u003c/a> within days of learning that her immigration case was being reopened. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The U.S. Department of Education \u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/education/education-department-lausd-teacher-reassignment-misconduct-policy-title-ix\">is investigating\u003c/a> how the Los Angeles Unified School District handles allegations of sexual misconduct involving teachers and students. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Governor Gavin Newsom is asking California election officials to \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article315634785.html\">speed up their vote count\u003c/a> in the June primary.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 class=\"page-title\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2026/04/23/sacramento-dreamer-says-reopened-immigration-case-upended-her-career/\">\u003cstrong>Sacramento Dreamer says reopened immigration case upended her career\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is renewing efforts to dismantle the Obama-era Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, or DACA. The policy currently shields over half a million immigrants brought to the U.S. as children from deportation. Roughly 300 DACA recipients, referred to as Dreamers, have been arrested and dozens have already been deported, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/25-28166%20S1%20SIGNED%20Durbin%20Responses_Durbin.pdf\">February memorandum from the Department of Homeland Security.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Sacramento, one woman lost her job and is dealing with traumatic memories from childhood detention after learning of the sudden reopening of her case. Daniela Valladares Hernandez, \u003ca href=\"https://www.capradio.org/articles/2026/04/14/sacramento-daca-recipient-ordered-to-travel-thousands-of-miles-for-court/\">a 28-year-old Dreamer who came to the United States from Honduras as a child\u003c/a>, said her life looked different just weeks ago prior to receiving the letter. She was studying for a life and health insurance professional certification for her finance job, planning a birthday celebration and looking for a volleyball league to join in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, she said she cries herself to sleep most nights. “I held a stainless steel cup and in just holding that I immediately had a flashback to the coldness of the bars and the stuff within the facilities,” Valladares said, recounting her detainment after crossing the border as a 6-year-old. “I was really excited and looking forward to celebrating my birthday. I don’t want to say there’s not much to celebrate, but it almost feels more inhuman to myself to create this illusion that I can have a normal day or a fun day when every day there’s work to do.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Valladares was ordered to report in person to an immigration court in Georgia — a state she hasn’t lived in for 10 years — despite having lived in California for four years. She said she requested to transfer the case to Sacramento or appear remotely, but both were denied. Her attorney was allowed to appear remotely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sudden reopening of the case, which she said was administratively closed over a decade ago, has affected nearly every aspect of her life, including her job. Valladares said her employer gave her a choice after learning she could be required to leave for court proceedings or potentially be detained: resign now or risk being fired and barred from working for the company again. “They told me that if I were to get detained and I couldn’t contact my job, it would be considered job abandonment, so ultimately if that happened, I wouldn’t be eligible for rehire,” she said. “However, if I resigned, I could be eligible for rehire one day and focus on fighting my case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She has since received food assistance and legal support from NorCal Resist, a Sacramento-based immigrant advocacy and mutual aid organization. NorCal Resist Program Director Giselle Garcia said a weeks-long battle to get the case moved to California, which included garnering support from Sacramento Congresswoman Doris Matsui, finally paid off. A second motion to change venue was accepted by the Atlanta court last month. But Garcia says that doesn’t mean Valladares’ life is back on track. “She lost a job that she worked very hard to get and to thrive in, she’s facing housing insecurity,” Garcia stressed. “She’s still going to be forced to engage in this procedure that is quite frankly not a fair one. The odds are always stacked against the respondent.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Valladares now has to wait for the Sacramento immigration court to issue a new hearing date. Legal experts and immigration attorneys say it’s difficult to know exactly how many people are in similar situations as Valladares because data from immigration courts is often delayed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"ArticlePage-headline\">\u003ca href=\"https://laist.com/news/education/education-department-lausd-teacher-reassignment-misconduct-policy-title-ix\">\u003cstrong>Trump administration opens investigation into LAUSD sexual misconduct policy\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Department of Education is investigating how the Los Angeles Unified School District responds to educators accused of sexual misconduct with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The department accuses the district of maintaining a policy that “automatically” reassigns teachers to other schools when they are accused of sexual misconduct with students and cites a \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/28094823-united-teachers-los-angeles-final-settlement-agreement-2023-100498-df-11-13-24/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>2024 agreement with the teachers union\u003c/u>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Los Angeles Unified spokesperson wrote in a statement that it’s “not true” that staff being investigated for sexual misconduct are reassigned to other school sites. “‘Reassignment’ typically means an employee is directed to remain at home and away from students and schools during an investigation,” the spokesperson wrote. United Teachers Los Angeles called the DOE’s accusations a “fundamental misunderstanding” of the district’s reassignment policy. “[Employees] are not reassigned to another classroom or to any other setting where they would interact with students,” read a statement provided by the union. “This policy protects both students and staff and creates conditions for a thorough and appropriate investigation of allegations.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The federal investigation, overseen by the department’s Office for Civil Rights, will assess whether the district’s policy violates Title IX, a law that \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.ed.gov/laws-and-policy/civil-rights-laws/title-ix-and-sex-discrimination\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>prohibits sex-based discrimination in federally funded education programs\u003c/u>\u003c/a>. Kimberly Richey, the assistant secretary for civil rights, wrote in \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.ed.gov/about/news/press-release/us-department-of-education-opens-title-ix-investigation-los-angeles-unified-school-district\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>a statement\u003c/u>\u003c/a> that Title IX requires schools to address claims of sexual misconduct in a “timely manner.” “It is unconscionable that the district would simply ignore Title IX’s procedural requirements to protect teachers who cause life-changing harm to their kids,” Richey wrote. “The Trump administration will always fight to uphold the law, protect the safety of all students and restore common sense to our schools.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LAUSD protocol related to employee misconduct says administrators must remove accused employees from their classroom or worksite whenever there is a risk to the safety of students or staff. The \u003ca class=\"Link\" href=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/28094784-bul-0443812-protocols-and-procedures-to-report-reassign-and-investigate-allegations-of-employee-misconduct/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-cms-ai=\"0\">\u003cu>110-page protocol document\u003c/u>\u003c/a> also lists several other requirements for allegations related to sexual misconduct, including contacting law enforcement and the agencies that license teachers. “Los Angeles Unified takes all allegations of sexual misconduct and harassment with the utmost seriousness,” a spokesperson wrote in a statement. “Our primary responsibility is to ensure the safety, dignity and well-being of every student and staff member in our care.” The statement also said the district follows Title IX procedures and continuously reviews its policies, training and reporting systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Newsom calls on election officials to count ballots faster \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Governor Gavin Newsom is \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/GovPressOffice/status/2051662586165477712\">asking California election officials\u003c/a> to speed up their vote count in the June primary. In a letter to election officials, Newsom said “the longer the voting count takes, the more mis and disinformation spreads.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at a news conference on Tuesday, California Secretary of State Shirley Weber said the speed of the vote count is a balancing act. “We want to count fast, we want to be effective and efficient. But at the same time we want to make sure that we’re accurate,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s vote count has slowed in recent years as voters have overwhelmingly adopted vote-by-mail, which requires verification after ballots are cast. In his letter, Newsom recommended elections officials take advantage of recent laws passed to speed up ballot counting – that includes lengthening the time ballots can be counted before Election Day and giving more regular updates on ballot counts. President Donald Trump and House Speaker Mike Johnson have used the slow count in California to falsely imply the state’s election results are fraudulent.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "My Therapist Is a Chatbot (Reload) | KQED",
"description": "What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot? For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. Note: This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised. This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when your therapist is… a chatbot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg, it started with a late-night spiral over dating. Instead of texting a friend, she opened ChatGPT and got the kind of calm, reassuring advice she needed. It worked… maybe a little too well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley joins Morgan to dig into the rise of AI therapy, why so many people are turning to chatbots for emotional support, and what they might be risking in the process. These systems promise something traditional mental health care often can’t: instant, affordable, judgment-free access. But there are limits and, sometimes, serious consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Note:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions. Listener discretion is advised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode first aired on April 23rd, 2025 \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4726760100\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em> health correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12057327/ai-prophets-and-spiritual-delusions\">AI Prophets and Spiritual Delusions\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Close All Tabs\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/urban-survival/202510/new-studies-reveal-mental-health-blindspots-of-ai-chatbots\">New Studies Reveal Mental Health Blindspots of AI Chatbots\u003c/a> — Marlynn Wei, \u003ci>Psychology Today\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2026/04/07/nx-s1-5771707/mental-health-care-workforce-artificial-intelligence-ai\">AI in the mental health care workforce is met with fear, pushback — and enthusiasm\u003c/a> — Rhitu Chatterjee, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey! You’re listening to Close All Tabs, and I’m Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">May is Mental Health Awareness Month. With the proliferation of AI tools over the last few years, many people have turned to chatbots for companionship, advice … and even therapy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It makes sense — healthcare in the US can be completely inaccessible, especially when it comes to mental health treatment. But in some cases, AI chatbots can put very vulnerable users in danger.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In light of that, mental health has been at the forefront of conversations about AI use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, for Mental Health Awareness Month, we’re re-airing an episode that explores that exact topic. A quick heads up: this episode includes discussion of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In January 2026, Character.AI agreed to settle multiple lawsuits that alleged that the chatbot contributed to mental health issues among teenagers. Other companies have faced similar lawsuits, after several users died by suicide, allegedly at the encouragement of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"meta": {
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"source": "BBC World Service"
},
"link": "/radio/program/bbc-world-service",
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"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/26099305-72af-4542-9dde-ac1807fe36d5/kqed-s-the-california-report",
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}
},
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"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"freakonomics-radio": {
"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"here-and-now": {
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
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