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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was reported for K Onda KQED, a monthly newsletter focused on the Bay Area’s Latinx community. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/k-onda\">Click here to subscribe\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I catch up with Bay Area masa mogul Emmanuel Galvan, he is about to enter his busiest time of year: the December tamalada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tamales are available year-round, but they hold special meaning and significance during the holiday season for many Latine families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Galvan, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13933138/bolita-masa-berkeley-pop-up-farmers-market-tetelas-tamales\">founder of Berkeley-based Bolita Masa\u003c/a>, sells pre-mixed masa — dough for making tamales — and ready-made tamales in both savory and sweet varieties made with his company’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht1NVEHLgCs&list=TLGGjvIt_pyBuwsxMDEyMjAyNQ&index=7\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">signature heirloom corn masa from Mexico.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For December, Bolita expanded its workforce from three people, including Galvan, to nine workers who will make close to 6,000 tamales by hand. The term tamalada refers to making tamales as a group and turning it into a festive occasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always found it so important to make food with your parents, your grandparents, your cousins,” Galvan said. “That’s how you kind of share information, and you retain kind of a familial culture. And it’s also how you develop family traditions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066063\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066063\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A tortilla cooks on a comal at Bolita Masa on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. The company tests masa texture and hydration throughout the day to ensure dough consistency. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On the surface, tamales are rather simple: corn dough stuffed with a filling — or not — placed in a wrapper of some kind and then steamed. They date back thousands of years in Mesoamerica and appear in a multitude of varieties throughout Latin America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I searched for tamale vendors in the Bay Area, I found options from Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Nicaragua and El Salvador that vary in fillings, size and toppings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concept may be simple, but the execution is not. As Galvan pointed out, tamales require a lot of work to prepare all the ingredients and assemble them, which is where the tamalada comes in.[aside postID=news_12062734 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-38.jpg']“The association with the holidays has to do with the fact that tamales require so much labor,” Galvan said. “You have your whole family together around the holidays or a big celebration, so you get everyone together and then you use as many people as possible to help you make all these tamales. You’re doing something that takes time and you’re chatting and catching up.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have spent many Christmas Eves on masa duty, donning one of my mom’s plaid aprons, slathering a pre-soaked corn leaf in masa and handing it to the next person to fill and fold. Sometimes I’ve used a spoon or spatula, but my favorite hack involves lugging out my mom’s wooden tortilla press to spread a ball of masa into an even surface area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For several years, my older sister hosted a tamalada at her home in Seattle, where dozens of friends and family would join in assembling hundreds of tamales and then taking home their own stash, because it’s fair to expect some compensation for hard work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The party became my sister’s signature annual event, one that friends would plan for months in advance to attend. Many invitees weren’t of Mexican descent, but they loved partaking in the tradition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066060\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066060\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">J. Embry pours heirloom corn into a large pot for cooking before it is ground into masa on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. Bolita Masa prepares dough from scratch using traditional ingredients and methods. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The most important thing about tamaladas, my sister told me recently, is to pass on recipes, techniques and knowledge to younger generations. Many young people balk at the amount of work it takes to make a pot of tamales, but the tias and abuelitas families rely on to make tamales and pozole won’t be around forever, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bolita starts taking orders for tamales the day before Thanksgiving and typically sells out within a week, Galvan said. Customers will pick up orders at various pop-up sales held at different locations throughout the month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This year’s menu includes savory options such as pork en salsa verde, turkey in mole negro, braised beef shoulder barbacoa with potato, and squash with black beans. The sweet versions — which Galvan says pair well with coffee on winter mornings — include chocolate and quince. Bolita sells a half dozen for $30 to $48, or about $5.50 to $8 each.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People get a little bit of a sticker shock initially,” Galvan said of his prices. “Our tamales are made of the best possible maize in the world. And I’m not saying that lightly. It’s always a little bit of a conversation when people ask how much they are, but then once they try them, you know they’re worth it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066062\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12066062 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Bolita Masa employee mixes freshly ground masa by hand on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. The dough is made from heirloom corn and prepared daily during the December rush. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>I recently saw a meme on social media that said, “Instead of Black Friday deals, could tamales be $10 a dozen again?” That price was normal about 20 years ago — and ignores the skyrocketing cost of ingredients and labor in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many people expect tamales, like many other types of Mexican dishes or street food, to be cheap, Galvan said. But that’s not possible if you are paying your workers a living wage and using top-quality ingredients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of it is people’s internalized racism of what a thing should cost because they’ve seen it made cheaply before. But they should really be asking themselves, is that person able to pay themselves?” Galvan said. “I’m not trying to shame people into paying more or something, but it’s really thinking about the whole system — like the labor at every level.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bolita’s mission is less about charging as much as possible and more about working with vendors and family farms in Mexico that are preserving heirloom varieties of corn that might otherwise disappear. Hosting your own tamalada offers a great — and more economical — alternative if you have the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dried chiles, labeled and stacked in clear bins, line a shelf at Bolita Masa on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. The chiles are used to flavor tamales and masa-based dishes produced during the holiday season. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After talking with Galvan, I felt more inspired to embrace the comfort of tamales this holiday season, whether that means holding my own tamalada while my mother is in town or supporting local makers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months of harsh immigration enforcement have taken an economic and psychological toll on many Latino businesses and community members this past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our indigenous ancestors created tamales millennia ago, leaving us a gift that encapsulates culture, tradition, love, family and connection. That’s what I — and I’m sure many others — am craving more than anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Here are some tips for hosting your own tamalada:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Consult experts:\u003c/strong> Sit down with the tamale maker in your family ahead of time and collect all the tips and information you can. You can also find countless tamale tutorials online.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Preparation is key:\u003c/strong> Assembling and prepping ingredients takes time. Stores sell many of the main ingredients ready for cooking, including pre-mixed dough.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Involve as much help as you can:\u003c/strong> The purpose of a tamalada is to build a connection with your family and community. The more hands available, the easier it will be to make tamales. Just make sure everyone has a clear task.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Galvan’s tips:\u003c/strong> Keep your masa cold while making tamales, or it won’t stick to the wrapper. Don’t overstuff each tamale — make sure the dough fully encloses the filling to avoid spills during cooking.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Make it fun:\u003c/strong> Enjoy holiday-inspired drinks like ponche, a Mexican-style punch made with fresh and dried fruits and cinnamon. Play music. Reminisce. Ask questions. Make the type of memories you’ll want to remember years from now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was reported for K Onda KQED, a monthly newsletter focused on the Bay Area’s Latinx community. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/k-onda\">Click here to subscribe\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I catch up with Bay Area masa mogul Emmanuel Galvan, he is about to enter his busiest time of year: the December tamalada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tamales are available year-round, but they hold special meaning and significance during the holiday season for many Latine families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Galvan, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13933138/bolita-masa-berkeley-pop-up-farmers-market-tetelas-tamales\">founder of Berkeley-based Bolita Masa\u003c/a>, sells pre-mixed masa — dough for making tamales — and ready-made tamales in both savory and sweet varieties made with his company’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht1NVEHLgCs&list=TLGGjvIt_pyBuwsxMDEyMjAyNQ&index=7\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">signature heirloom corn masa from Mexico.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For December, Bolita expanded its workforce from three people, including Galvan, to nine workers who will make close to 6,000 tamales by hand. The term tamalada refers to making tamales as a group and turning it into a festive occasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always found it so important to make food with your parents, your grandparents, your cousins,” Galvan said. “That’s how you kind of share information, and you retain kind of a familial culture. And it’s also how you develop family traditions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066063\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066063\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A tortilla cooks on a comal at Bolita Masa on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. The company tests masa texture and hydration throughout the day to ensure dough consistency. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On the surface, tamales are rather simple: corn dough stuffed with a filling — or not — placed in a wrapper of some kind and then steamed. They date back thousands of years in Mesoamerica and appear in a multitude of varieties throughout Latin America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I searched for tamale vendors in the Bay Area, I found options from Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Nicaragua and El Salvador that vary in fillings, size and toppings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concept may be simple, but the execution is not. As Galvan pointed out, tamales require a lot of work to prepare all the ingredients and assemble them, which is where the tamalada comes in.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The association with the holidays has to do with the fact that tamales require so much labor,” Galvan said. “You have your whole family together around the holidays or a big celebration, so you get everyone together and then you use as many people as possible to help you make all these tamales. You’re doing something that takes time and you’re chatting and catching up.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have spent many Christmas Eves on masa duty, donning one of my mom’s plaid aprons, slathering a pre-soaked corn leaf in masa and handing it to the next person to fill and fold. Sometimes I’ve used a spoon or spatula, but my favorite hack involves lugging out my mom’s wooden tortilla press to spread a ball of masa into an even surface area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For several years, my older sister hosted a tamalada at her home in Seattle, where dozens of friends and family would join in assembling hundreds of tamales and then taking home their own stash, because it’s fair to expect some compensation for hard work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The party became my sister’s signature annual event, one that friends would plan for months in advance to attend. Many invitees weren’t of Mexican descent, but they loved partaking in the tradition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066060\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066060\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-9-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">J. Embry pours heirloom corn into a large pot for cooking before it is ground into masa on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. Bolita Masa prepares dough from scratch using traditional ingredients and methods. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The most important thing about tamaladas, my sister told me recently, is to pass on recipes, techniques and knowledge to younger generations. Many young people balk at the amount of work it takes to make a pot of tamales, but the tias and abuelitas families rely on to make tamales and pozole won’t be around forever, she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bolita starts taking orders for tamales the day before Thanksgiving and typically sells out within a week, Galvan said. Customers will pick up orders at various pop-up sales held at different locations throughout the month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This year’s menu includes savory options such as pork en salsa verde, turkey in mole negro, braised beef shoulder barbacoa with potato, and squash with black beans. The sweet versions — which Galvan says pair well with coffee on winter mornings — include chocolate and quince. Bolita sells a half dozen for $30 to $48, or about $5.50 to $8 each.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People get a little bit of a sticker shock initially,” Galvan said of his prices. “Our tamales are made of the best possible maize in the world. And I’m not saying that lightly. It’s always a little bit of a conversation when people ask how much they are, but then once they try them, you know they’re worth it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066062\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12066062 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-12-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Bolita Masa employee mixes freshly ground masa by hand on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. The dough is made from heirloom corn and prepared daily during the December rush. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>I recently saw a meme on social media that said, “Instead of Black Friday deals, could tamales be $10 a dozen again?” That price was normal about 20 years ago — and ignores the skyrocketing cost of ingredients and labor in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many people expect tamales, like many other types of Mexican dishes or street food, to be cheap, Galvan said. But that’s not possible if you are paying your workers a living wage and using top-quality ingredients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of it is people’s internalized racism of what a thing should cost because they’ve seen it made cheaply before. But they should really be asking themselves, is that person able to pay themselves?” Galvan said. “I’m not trying to shame people into paying more or something, but it’s really thinking about the whole system — like the labor at every level.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bolita’s mission is less about charging as much as possible and more about working with vendors and family farms in Mexico that are preserving heirloom varieties of corn that might otherwise disappear. Hosting your own tamalada offers a great — and more economical — alternative if you have the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251203_K_ONDA_DECEMBER_GH-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dried chiles, labeled and stacked in clear bins, line a shelf at Bolita Masa on Dec. 3, 2025, in Berkeley. The chiles are used to flavor tamales and masa-based dishes produced during the holiday season. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After talking with Galvan, I felt more inspired to embrace the comfort of tamales this holiday season, whether that means holding my own tamalada while my mother is in town or supporting local makers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months of harsh immigration enforcement have taken an economic and psychological toll on many Latino businesses and community members this past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our indigenous ancestors created tamales millennia ago, leaving us a gift that encapsulates culture, tradition, love, family and connection. That’s what I — and I’m sure many others — am craving more than anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Here are some tips for hosting your own tamalada:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Consult experts:\u003c/strong> Sit down with the tamale maker in your family ahead of time and collect all the tips and information you can. You can also find countless tamale tutorials online.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Preparation is key:\u003c/strong> Assembling and prepping ingredients takes time. Stores sell many of the main ingredients ready for cooking, including pre-mixed dough.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Involve as much help as you can:\u003c/strong> The purpose of a tamalada is to build a connection with your family and community. The more hands available, the easier it will be to make tamales. Just make sure everyone has a clear task.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Galvan’s tips:\u003c/strong> Keep your masa cold while making tamales, or it won’t stick to the wrapper. Don’t overstuff each tamale — make sure the dough fully encloses the filling to avoid spills during cooking.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Make it fun:\u003c/strong> Enjoy holiday-inspired drinks like ponche, a Mexican-style punch made with fresh and dried fruits and cinnamon. Play music. Reminisce. Ask questions. Make the type of memories you’ll want to remember years from now.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "hes-painted-thousands-of-san-franciscos-iconic-victorian-homes-meet-dr-color",
"title": "He’s Painted Thousands of San Francisco’s Iconic Victorian Homes. Meet Dr. Color",
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"headTitle": "He’s Painted Thousands of San Francisco’s Iconic Victorian Homes. Meet Dr. Color | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>A hot pink nail salon. A yellow taqueria. A periwinkle Edwardian with red trim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Block after block along \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>’s bustling 24th Street, architectural gems mimic the vibrant papel picado strung up in windowfronts across the historic \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/mission-district\">Mission District\u003c/a> corridor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Less eye-catching, however, are the small signs affixed to the sides of these buildings, an understated acknowledgment of the man who painted thousands of technicolor buildings and helped shape the city’s iconic skyline in the process: Bob Buckter, better known as Dr. Color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is widely known for its colorful architectural landscape, particularly the rainbow of Victorians dotting its hillsides. Much of it can be attributed to Buckter, who has painted and consulted on color design for tens of thousands of Victorian homes, churches, commercial buildings and more for nearly 60 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s another job with my sign on it,” Buckter said on a recent fall afternoon, gesturing to the left as he drove down 24th Street in his royal blue pickup truck, a license plate that reads “DRCOLOR” on the back bumper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The guy wanted the wildest pink I could come up with, and there it is,” Buckter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059298\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A building painted by Bob Buckter, also known as Dr. Color, is seen at 1102 Treat Ave., in San Francisco’s Mission District on Oct. 8, 2025. Buckter has designed and painted more than 23,000 homes, along with other projects in San Francisco and beyond. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The 78-year-old’s work uses different colors to highlight the ornate details of a building’s facade, generating the polychromatic architectural backdrop that draws so many people to the City by the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“San Francisco is the leader of the identity of Victorian architecture across the West Coast. I would probably venture to say even across the nation,” said Clark Thenhaus, associate professor of architecture at California College of the Arts in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Victorian-style architecture in the United States was first popularized on the East Coast, where these homes were constructed with natural materials like stone and brick, giving them more neutral earth-tone colors, like softer grays and browns.[aside postID=news_12057037 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250904_K-ONDA-SEPTEMBER-NAIL-ARTIST-_GH-2-KQED.jpg']As the style moved toward the West Coast, timber became the primary building material for Victorians. Wood exterior made a better canvas for paint, and soon the multicolored facades could be found across California, from Santa Cruz to Nevada City in the Sierra foothills and Eureka along the coast in Humboldt County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What you find is actually a whole new way of thinking about color, because now it’s not derivative of a specific material. It’s actually applied to something,” Thenhaus said. “That’s when you start to see the Victorians kind of change their clothing from this earthen material to something that’s much more vibrant and bright.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buckter started painting houses in the 1970s after graduating from San Francisco State University with a degree in social sciences and a minor in business, cultivating his passion at the cusp of the city’s psychedelic era. After doing a couple of paint jobs for a friend, he placed an ad in a local newspaper offering house painting services to earn some extra cash while pursuing a career in real estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He never completed any formal art or color theory training, but after he landed his first home painting gig, clients kept coming. After retiring from painting homes himself in his thirties, color consulting became his full-time work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058967\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058967\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"840\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-2000x672.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-160x54.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-1536x516.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-2048x688.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A home Bob Buckler painted is located in the Dolores Heights neighborhood in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just learned everything the hard way,” Buckter said. “I made sure people would be happy, even when I was trying new things, and I learned a lot doing that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maria Diaz Bobillo, who lives in a yellow accessory dwelling unit that Buckter designed across from Dolores Park, chose the unit specifically for its sunny hues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A friend sent me the Craigslist ad, and she was like, ‘It speaks to you, it has your colors,” she said. “It has this deep yellow, and I had friends who used to call me Yellow Maria because my whole wardrobe was yellow. It was meant to be, you know? And it’s very beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In front of her cottage stands another one of Buckter’s jewels, a three-story Victorian that features 11 colors in total. A yellow and gold face with blue, green and purple trimmings, plus a stained glass feature next to the front staircase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059318\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059318\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A molding design adorned with gold leaf, a decorative style specialized by Bob Buckter, stands in the Dolores Heights neighborhood on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This is a big part of my life, this building,” Buckter said, using a green laser pointer to identify elements of the design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Color himself lived in the building before moving to his current residence, a periwinkle Edwardian with gold leaf finish on Vermont Street. And he remembers every detail that went into both homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I rigged this whole thing with my own scaffolding, you know, a plank that goes all the way across with hooks and ropes, and I did all the work up there myself,” he said, pointing to a hand-stenciled ribbon feature lining the top of his yellow building at Dolores Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buckter rattled off memories of living there, like hot tub ragers on the roof overlooking the city’s skyline. “Lots of parties, and before all those buildings were built, this had a view of the Bay Bridge,” he said, pointing to Salesforce Tower in the distance. “Now you can’t see it, but what am I going to do? Just enjoy it, I guess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058968\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058968\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"840\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-2000x672.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-160x54.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-1536x516.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-2048x688.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bob Buckler’s home is located in the Mission District in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For many years, Buckter, a second-generation San Franciscan who was born in the Mission District and grew up in the Sunset District, worked right alongside the painting crew on scaffolds, highlighting all the nooks and crannies with multiple colors that make it impossible not to stop and stare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They never had a major accident, but they did take a few chances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One day, one of the guys that put the hooks up on the building for the plants said, ‘Hey, there’s a bunch of marijuana on this roof drying out. Send me up a brown paper bag.’ So I sent that up, we smoked it and this stuff was out of this world,” he laughed. “In retrospect, it might’ve been mixed with some bad stuff, but the good thing is everyone is still alive and healthy. So we had a lot of fun.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Several artists and other “colorists” began experimenting with home exterior colors in the 1960s, inspiring one another’s work. Buckter himself did the color for two of the best-known Victorians on Steiner Street overlooking Alamo Square Park, called the “Painted Ladies,” but those have since been repainted. His work is mentioned throughout the 1978 book, \u003cem>Painted Ladies – San Francisco’s Resplendent Victorians\u003c/em>, which coined the term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058963\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12058963 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bob Buckter’s color swatches for a new project sit on his desk in his home in the Mission District in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These days, Buckter primarily provides color consulting services where he’ll advise clients on palettes and types of paint for homes and businesses across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recently released his own book, which he said is his first and last, on all of the signature work he’s done in the city and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m still doing commercial and industrial work; however, my labor of love and what I really enjoy best is historic homes,” Buckter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Victorians are more than just a pretty sidewalk attraction, though, Thenhaus said. They represent eras of history, social movements and changes across the city at large.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1960s and ’70s, “most of the Victorians were more like a commune back in the day. These were like sex, drug and rock ‘n’ roll places. There were a lot of people living there, and they were inexpensive at that time,” Thenhaus said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059296\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059296\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A building Bob Buckter painted is located in the Mission District at 3033 24th Street in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Former homes of groups like the Cockettes, an avant-garde theater and drag group, or the Grateful Dead, still draw crowds of tourists to this day. The groovy ethos of those eras inspired their colors, but they were also a visual tool of the counter-cultural and civil rights movements of their time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brightly colored Victorians in the Castro, for example, signaled safe spaces for thousands of gay men who moved to San Francisco during World War II, after being discharged and denied G.I. benefits from the U.S. military due to their sexuality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These homes also serve as a marker of some of the city’s darker histories, like the numerous Victorian homes that were placed on trucks and physically moved out of the historically African American Fillmore District and into other neighborhoods like Pacific Heights around the 1970s, displacing thousands of Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, efforts to preserve the city’s Victorian image in some ways belie the history that made them so culturally significant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re often now the most expensive real estate in the city, and often they are single-family homes or carved up into apartments,” Thenhaus said. “In a way, it is just preserving an image of them, but not necessarily with the kind of counter-cultural revolution that came with what led to them being so brightly painted and ornate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058966\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058966\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A home Bob Buckler painted is located in the Dolores Heights neighborhood in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the city faces a pressing housing crisis, pouring money, time and effort into preserving Victorians strikes some as out of line with residents’ more utilitarian need for shelter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You have this real conflict of what is the priority from a city planning standpoint: the imageability of the city and its popular appeal for tourism to see these houses juxtaposed by the growing need for more housing, probably better housing, and ways of thinking about the kind of equitable structure of the housing market,” Thenhaus said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nevertheless, Victorians have stood tall throughout the city’s many boom and bust cycles. Clients still come to Dr. Color with their own ideas and preferences, and he steers people toward combinations he thinks will bring out the best of the building’s architecture, drawing on elements of the surrounding area and environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Color fads also come and go. One trend you won’t see Buckter getting enthusiastic over is monochrome, such as the all-black or all-white Victorians some homeowners are going with these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059320\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A building Bob Buckter painted is located in the Mission District at 3033 24th St., in San Francisco, on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In my opinion, that is an ignorant approach to decorating your facade, because the owners are ignoring the architecture. They aren’t paying attention to what the building has. I do,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thenhaus said the single-color approach is part of a wider trend in fashion, a sort of “clean girl” aesthetic that’s crept into architecture and design. But it also harkens back to some of the city’s earliest Victorian homes, like the Queen Annes erected in San Francisco after the Gold Rush, which were often painted all white to cover up their wooden exterior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen it where a lot of fashion went to a kind of monochrome. I don’t know that I read it at this point anyway as being a political statement or reaction or anything like that,” the architecture professor said. “My take on it is it’s actually a way of differentiating from the plethora of colors out there, like, here’s an all-black, here’s an all-white.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buckter has had more freedom to be creative in San Francisco than he would in many other places. City officials say they rarely step in to regulate a building’s color. Some exceptions include if a building is a designated landmark or located in certain areas like the Jackson Square Historic District, downtown’s conservation district or the Northeast Waterfront Historic District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058964\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058964\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bob Buckter poses for a portrait at his home in the Mission District in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Buckter is well known around town. When this reporter contacted the Planning Department for information on color regulations, the response was immediate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You wouldn’t be talking about Bob Buckter by any chance, would you? Only asking because his name is the one that came to mind,” Daniel Sider, chief of staff for San Francisco Planning, wrote in an email to KQED. “I’m familiar with him because — to be totally honest — my HOA hired him when we repainted my building.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sider’s building went with a sky blue face with white, beige and navy blue details — Dr. Color’s personal favorites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like blue,” Buckter said. “My truck is blue and I’ve got a couple old Mercedes-Benz collector cars that are also blue and gray.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But most anything goes for Dr. Color, if it’s what the client wants. His approach and inspiration, he said, “is to have people happy about what I’m doing, something they personally like, and that will appeal to the widest range of people so they can look up and see something that is in very good taste.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A hot pink nail salon. A yellow taqueria. A periwinkle Edwardian with red trim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Block after block along \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>’s bustling 24th Street, architectural gems mimic the vibrant papel picado strung up in windowfronts across the historic \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/mission-district\">Mission District\u003c/a> corridor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Less eye-catching, however, are the small signs affixed to the sides of these buildings, an understated acknowledgment of the man who painted thousands of technicolor buildings and helped shape the city’s iconic skyline in the process: Bob Buckter, better known as Dr. Color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is widely known for its colorful architectural landscape, particularly the rainbow of Victorians dotting its hillsides. Much of it can be attributed to Buckter, who has painted and consulted on color design for tens of thousands of Victorian homes, churches, commercial buildings and more for nearly 60 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s another job with my sign on it,” Buckter said on a recent fall afternoon, gesturing to the left as he drove down 24th Street in his royal blue pickup truck, a license plate that reads “DRCOLOR” on the back bumper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The guy wanted the wildest pink I could come up with, and there it is,” Buckter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059298\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01283_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A building painted by Bob Buckter, also known as Dr. Color, is seen at 1102 Treat Ave., in San Francisco’s Mission District on Oct. 8, 2025. Buckter has designed and painted more than 23,000 homes, along with other projects in San Francisco and beyond. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The 78-year-old’s work uses different colors to highlight the ornate details of a building’s facade, generating the polychromatic architectural backdrop that draws so many people to the City by the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“San Francisco is the leader of the identity of Victorian architecture across the West Coast. I would probably venture to say even across the nation,” said Clark Thenhaus, associate professor of architecture at California College of the Arts in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Victorian-style architecture in the United States was first popularized on the East Coast, where these homes were constructed with natural materials like stone and brick, giving them more neutral earth-tone colors, like softer grays and browns.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>As the style moved toward the West Coast, timber became the primary building material for Victorians. Wood exterior made a better canvas for paint, and soon the multicolored facades could be found across California, from Santa Cruz to Nevada City in the Sierra foothills and Eureka along the coast in Humboldt County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What you find is actually a whole new way of thinking about color, because now it’s not derivative of a specific material. It’s actually applied to something,” Thenhaus said. “That’s when you start to see the Victorians kind of change their clothing from this earthen material to something that’s much more vibrant and bright.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buckter started painting houses in the 1970s after graduating from San Francisco State University with a degree in social sciences and a minor in business, cultivating his passion at the cusp of the city’s psychedelic era. After doing a couple of paint jobs for a friend, he placed an ad in a local newspaper offering house painting services to earn some extra cash while pursuing a career in real estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He never completed any formal art or color theory training, but after he landed his first home painting gig, clients kept coming. After retiring from painting homes himself in his thirties, color consulting became his full-time work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058967\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058967\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"840\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-2000x672.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-160x54.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-1536x516.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-01_TV-2048x688.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A home Bob Buckler painted is located in the Dolores Heights neighborhood in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just learned everything the hard way,” Buckter said. “I made sure people would be happy, even when I was trying new things, and I learned a lot doing that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maria Diaz Bobillo, who lives in a yellow accessory dwelling unit that Buckter designed across from Dolores Park, chose the unit specifically for its sunny hues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A friend sent me the Craigslist ad, and she was like, ‘It speaks to you, it has your colors,” she said. “It has this deep yellow, and I had friends who used to call me Yellow Maria because my whole wardrobe was yellow. It was meant to be, you know? And it’s very beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In front of her cottage stands another one of Buckter’s jewels, a three-story Victorian that features 11 colors in total. A yellow and gold face with blue, green and purple trimmings, plus a stained glass feature next to the front staircase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059318\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059318\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_00466_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A molding design adorned with gold leaf, a decorative style specialized by Bob Buckter, stands in the Dolores Heights neighborhood on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This is a big part of my life, this building,” Buckter said, using a green laser pointer to identify elements of the design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Color himself lived in the building before moving to his current residence, a periwinkle Edwardian with gold leaf finish on Vermont Street. And he remembers every detail that went into both homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I rigged this whole thing with my own scaffolding, you know, a plank that goes all the way across with hooks and ropes, and I did all the work up there myself,” he said, pointing to a hand-stenciled ribbon feature lining the top of his yellow building at Dolores Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buckter rattled off memories of living there, like hot tub ragers on the roof overlooking the city’s skyline. “Lots of parties, and before all those buildings were built, this had a view of the Bay Bridge,” he said, pointing to Salesforce Tower in the distance. “Now you can’t see it, but what am I going to do? Just enjoy it, I guess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058968\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058968\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"840\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-2000x672.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-160x54.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-1536x516.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-drcolor_DIPTYCH-02_TV-2048x688.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bob Buckler’s home is located in the Mission District in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For many years, Buckter, a second-generation San Franciscan who was born in the Mission District and grew up in the Sunset District, worked right alongside the painting crew on scaffolds, highlighting all the nooks and crannies with multiple colors that make it impossible not to stop and stare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They never had a major accident, but they did take a few chances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One day, one of the guys that put the hooks up on the building for the plants said, ‘Hey, there’s a bunch of marijuana on this roof drying out. Send me up a brown paper bag.’ So I sent that up, we smoked it and this stuff was out of this world,” he laughed. “In retrospect, it might’ve been mixed with some bad stuff, but the good thing is everyone is still alive and healthy. So we had a lot of fun.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Several artists and other “colorists” began experimenting with home exterior colors in the 1960s, inspiring one another’s work. Buckter himself did the color for two of the best-known Victorians on Steiner Street overlooking Alamo Square Park, called the “Painted Ladies,” but those have since been repainted. His work is mentioned throughout the 1978 book, \u003cem>Painted Ladies – San Francisco’s Resplendent Victorians\u003c/em>, which coined the term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058963\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12058963 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00228_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bob Buckter’s color swatches for a new project sit on his desk in his home in the Mission District in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These days, Buckter primarily provides color consulting services where he’ll advise clients on palettes and types of paint for homes and businesses across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recently released his own book, which he said is his first and last, on all of the signature work he’s done in the city and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m still doing commercial and industrial work; however, my labor of love and what I really enjoy best is historic homes,” Buckter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Victorians are more than just a pretty sidewalk attraction, though, Thenhaus said. They represent eras of history, social movements and changes across the city at large.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1960s and ’70s, “most of the Victorians were more like a commune back in the day. These were like sex, drug and rock ‘n’ roll places. There were a lot of people living there, and they were inexpensive at that time,” Thenhaus said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059296\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059296\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01126_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A building Bob Buckter painted is located in the Mission District at 3033 24th Street in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Former homes of groups like the Cockettes, an avant-garde theater and drag group, or the Grateful Dead, still draw crowds of tourists to this day. The groovy ethos of those eras inspired their colors, but they were also a visual tool of the counter-cultural and civil rights movements of their time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brightly colored Victorians in the Castro, for example, signaled safe spaces for thousands of gay men who moved to San Francisco during World War II, after being discharged and denied G.I. benefits from the U.S. military due to their sexuality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These homes also serve as a marker of some of the city’s darker histories, like the numerous Victorian homes that were placed on trucks and physically moved out of the historically African American Fillmore District and into other neighborhoods like Pacific Heights around the 1970s, displacing thousands of Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, efforts to preserve the city’s Victorian image in some ways belie the history that made them so culturally significant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re often now the most expensive real estate in the city, and often they are single-family homes or carved up into apartments,” Thenhaus said. “In a way, it is just preserving an image of them, but not necessarily with the kind of counter-cultural revolution that came with what led to them being so brightly painted and ornate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058966\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058966\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00383_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A home Bob Buckler painted is located in the Dolores Heights neighborhood in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the city faces a pressing housing crisis, pouring money, time and effort into preserving Victorians strikes some as out of line with residents’ more utilitarian need for shelter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You have this real conflict of what is the priority from a city planning standpoint: the imageability of the city and its popular appeal for tourism to see these houses juxtaposed by the growing need for more housing, probably better housing, and ways of thinking about the kind of equitable structure of the housing market,” Thenhaus said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nevertheless, Victorians have stood tall throughout the city’s many boom and bust cycles. Clients still come to Dr. Color with their own ideas and preferences, and he steers people toward combinations he thinks will bring out the best of the building’s architecture, drawing on elements of the surrounding area and environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Color fads also come and go. One trend you won’t see Buckter getting enthusiastic over is monochrome, such as the all-black or all-white Victorians some homeowners are going with these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059320\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008-drcolor_01180_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A building Bob Buckter painted is located in the Mission District at 3033 24th St., in San Francisco, on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In my opinion, that is an ignorant approach to decorating your facade, because the owners are ignoring the architecture. They aren’t paying attention to what the building has. I do,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thenhaus said the single-color approach is part of a wider trend in fashion, a sort of “clean girl” aesthetic that’s crept into architecture and design. But it also harkens back to some of the city’s earliest Victorian homes, like the Queen Annes erected in San Francisco after the Gold Rush, which were often painted all white to cover up their wooden exterior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen it where a lot of fashion went to a kind of monochrome. I don’t know that I read it at this point anyway as being a political statement or reaction or anything like that,” the architecture professor said. “My take on it is it’s actually a way of differentiating from the plethora of colors out there, like, here’s an all-black, here’s an all-white.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buckter has had more freedom to be creative in San Francisco than he would in many other places. City officials say they rarely step in to regulate a building’s color. Some exceptions include if a building is a designated landmark or located in certain areas like the Jackson Square Historic District, downtown’s conservation district or the Northeast Waterfront Historic District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058964\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058964\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251002-DRCOLOR_00257_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bob Buckter poses for a portrait at his home in the Mission District in San Francisco on Oct. 2, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Buckter is well known around town. When this reporter contacted the Planning Department for information on color regulations, the response was immediate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You wouldn’t be talking about Bob Buckter by any chance, would you? Only asking because his name is the one that came to mind,” Daniel Sider, chief of staff for San Francisco Planning, wrote in an email to KQED. “I’m familiar with him because — to be totally honest — my HOA hired him when we repainted my building.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sider’s building went with a sky blue face with white, beige and navy blue details — Dr. Color’s personal favorites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like blue,” Buckter said. “My truck is blue and I’ve got a couple old Mercedes-Benz collector cars that are also blue and gray.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But most anything goes for Dr. Color, if it’s what the client wants. His approach and inspiration, he said, “is to have people happy about what I’m doing, something they personally like, and that will appeal to the widest range of people so they can look up and see something that is in very good taste.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Skipping Thanksgiving? Where to Escape the Holiday in the Bay Area",
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"headTitle": "Skipping Thanksgiving? Where to Escape the Holiday in the Bay Area | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Maybe you \u003cem>really\u003c/em> don’t like cranberry sauce. Perhaps you just moved to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area\u003c/a> and still haven’t \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13983952/best-ways-to-do-friendsgiving-101-holiday-history-thanksgiving-with-friends\">found your people yet\u003c/a>, or “going home” — for whatever reason — is difficult this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe you just didn’t really celebrate \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/thanksgiving\">Thanksgiving\u003c/a> growing up and still haven’t connected with it. (Or maybe you really, \u003cem>really\u003c/em> don’t like cranberry sauce.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whatever your situation, if you aren’t “doing” Thanksgiving this year and want to escape the holiday on Thursday, the good news is: You have options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While many businesses and public spaces close down for the week, some places in the Bay Area are still open and available to offer you distraction, solace or just a different experience from the more traditional Thanksgiving gatherings.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Attend the Thanksgiving Sunrise Ceremony\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every year, Indigenous families from across the country — and their allies — \u003ca href=\"https://www.iitc.org/event/indigenous-peoples-thanksgiving-sunrise-gathering-november-27-2025/\">head to Alcatraz Island on Thursday before sunrise\u003c/a> to commemorate \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11788540/a-look-back-at-the-occupation-of-alcatraz-50-years-later\">the historic 1969 Occupation\u003c/a>, sparked when a group of Native American students landed on the island, with the aim of returning this land to Indigenous ownership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11894291\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11894291\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hundreds of Native American families and allies ferry to Alcatraz Island each Thanksgiving before sunrise to commemorate the historic 1969 Occupation. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The event includes several ceremonies traditional to different Native American nations, live music and some remarks from speakers. The event is family-friendly and wheelchair accessible. Boats depart from Pier 33 in San Francisco starting at 4:15 a.m. until 6 a.m., and all boats return to the city by 9 a.m. While limited tickets are available on the day, you can also \u003ca href=\"https://www.cityexperiences.com/san-francisco/city-cruises/alcatraz/programs-and-events/annual-events/indigenous-peoples-sunrise-gathering/\">buy an advance ticket online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Wander the San Francisco Botanical Garden for free\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Many museums, like the Oakland Museum of California or SFMOMA, are closed on Thursday. But not only does one of San Francisco’s most popular outdoor museums \u003ca href=\"https://gggp.org/visit/admissions-hours/\">stay open on Thanksgiving Day\u003c/a>, it’s also \u003cem>free \u003c/em>that day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Botanical Garden in Golden Gate Park confirmed that it’ll be offering free admission to everyone on Thursday, regardless of where you live (\u003ca href=\"https://gggp.org/tickets/\">free admission is usually based on San Francisco residency\u003c/a>). The garden opens from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056799\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Moon-View-e1758300999218.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056799\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Moon-View-e1758300999218.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1265\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Platform viewing deck over pond in Moon Viewing Garden in San Francisco Botanical Garden with fall foliage color in Japanese Maple trees. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Saxon Holt)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And if you want to make a day of it, the nearby Conservatory of Flowers and Japanese Tea Garden will also be open on Thanksgiving. Free admission here, however, will only be on offer to members, San Francisco residents, veterans and \u003ca href=\"https://museums4all.org/\">visitors with an EBT card as part of the Museums For All program\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can’t attend in person? The event will also be streamed online via the \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/treatycouncil/\">International Indian Treaty Council’s Facebook page\u003c/a> starting at 6 a.m.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Take a hike (we have suggestions)\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is full of outdoor recreation opportunities, and \u003ca href=\"https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=37.7800771&lon=-122.4201615\">the weather is forecast to be cool and mostly sunny on Thursday\u003c/a>.[aside postID=news_12064296 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AngelIslandGGBridgeGetty.jpg']If you’re in need of inspiration, take a look at our recommendations for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064296/san-francisco-bay-area-holiday-hikes-things-to-do-thanksgiving-where-take-guests-holidays\">iconic Bay Area sightseeing spots\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054079/best-hikes-san-francisco-presidio-views-trails-hiking\">the best hikes in San Francisco’s Presidio\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1985496/best-bay-area-hikes-wildlife-near-me\">the trails where you’re most likely to catch a glimpse of wildlife here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One idea for getting outdoors in the San José area:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/communications-hill-stairs\">Communications Hill\u003c/a> in the city’s southern half, and head over to Cassellino Drive, where you’ll find several easy street parking options nearby. From here, tackle the Grand Staircase, with 252 steps that lead up to one of the best views of San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for an East Bay adventure instead, head to South Fremont to climb \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/mission-peak\">Mission Peak\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Thanksgiving Day, you can access the trail through Stanford Avenue (6:30 a.m. to 9 p.m.). Roughly three miles at a steep incline, it takes \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/mission-peak\">most visitors about five hours\u003c/a> to hike all the way to the peak’s top and come back down. If you’re looking for a physical challenge to fill the holiday, this might be it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Join a Turkey Trot around the Bay (or just watch one)\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Not into hiking? What about dressing up as a turkey and running a 5K?[aside postID=news_12054079 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/250904-PRESIDIOHIKES-11-BL-KQED.jpg']While San Francisco’s \u003ca href=\"https://sfturkeytrot.wixsite.com/sftt\">23rd Annual Thanksgiving Run and Walk\u003c/a> (more commonly known as the Turkey Trot) is no longer accepting sign-ups, you can still register for other Turkey Trots around the Bay Area, including \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandturkeytrot.org/event-details\">Oakland\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.svturkeytrot.com/\">San José\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.marinturkeytrot.com/\">Novato\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://madarc.com/turkeytrot/\">Petaluma\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://runsignup.com/Race/CA/Concord/ConcordTurkeyTrot5k\">Concord\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://raceroster.com/events/2025/107698/walnut-creek-turkey-trot\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While runners are timed, these races are pretty low-pressure and are mostly about getting folks moving at whatever speed works best for them. While you’ll have to pay a registration fee to race —with most proceeds going to local charities — you’ll be rewarded with either a medal or jersey for your efforts, on top of the sheer fun of the race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you don’t want to do any running yourself, a fun alternative is hanging out near the finish line and cheering runners on as they come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Be transported by drinks at a themed bar\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If you’re wondering “but why a \u003cem>themed \u003c/em>bar?”, let us explain: You may not always be a fan of say, tiki torches — or Harry Potter — but the commitment of themed bars to their bit comes in pretty clutch when you want to be transported to a whole different vibe, far away from Thanksgiving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two such suggestions for San Francisco alone: Enjoy a piña colada next to the indoor lagoon of \u003ca href=\"https://www.fairmont-san-francisco.com/dine/tonga-room-hurricane-bar/\">The Tonga Room & Hurricane Room\u003c/a> at the Fairmont Hotel, or watch a Harry Potter-themed drag show at \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/wizards.wands/\">Wizards & Wands\u003c/a> (and yes, they have Butter Beer) in the Marina District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you can wait a day, a host of pop-up \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/maps/best-holiday-cocktails-bars-san-francisco-bay-area\">holiday-themed bars are also coming to the Bay Area\u003c/a>, to fast-forward you far beyond Thanksgiving and into the festive season — although several of them are only open on Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>And finally … escape to the movies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ready to \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeqj5GnoFUY\">defy gravity\u003c/a> with Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande in \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/11/20/nx-s1-5612585/wicked-for-good-review-ariana-grande-cynthia-erivo\">\u003cem>Wicked For Good\u003c/em>\u003c/a>?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How about Berkeley’s own Andy Samberg voicing an awkward teenage lynx \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/zootopia-2-movie-review-292761226b0b7bee0ba470281b6832d8\">in Zootopia 2\u003c/a>?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12065470\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12065470\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oakland’s Grand Lake Theatre will be one of several independent cinemas in the Bay Area that will stay open through the holiday week.\u003c/span> \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Or perhaps you’d rather see Brendan Fraser \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/brendan-fraser-rental-family-interview-1d3895901593b28eccd6547be8ffbfcc\">playing\u003c/a> an American living in Japan, acting out multiple roles in Rental Family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All AMC and Cinemark theaters in the Bay Area are open Thursday and through the holiday weekend. Several independent theaters, like Alamo Drafthouse in San Francisco, Mountain View and Santa Clara, Oakland’s Grand Lake Theatre and El Cerrito’s Rialto Cinemas will also have showings on Thanksgiving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/nkhan\">\u003cem>Nisa Khan\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Not everything’s closed on Turkey Day. Whether you want distraction, solace or just a break from tradition, here’s where to escape Thanksgiving.\r\n",
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"title": "Skipping Thanksgiving? Where to Escape the Holiday in the Bay Area | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Maybe you \u003cem>really\u003c/em> don’t like cranberry sauce. Perhaps you just moved to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area\u003c/a> and still haven’t \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13983952/best-ways-to-do-friendsgiving-101-holiday-history-thanksgiving-with-friends\">found your people yet\u003c/a>, or “going home” — for whatever reason — is difficult this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe you just didn’t really celebrate \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/thanksgiving\">Thanksgiving\u003c/a> growing up and still haven’t connected with it. (Or maybe you really, \u003cem>really\u003c/em> don’t like cranberry sauce.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whatever your situation, if you aren’t “doing” Thanksgiving this year and want to escape the holiday on Thursday, the good news is: You have options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While many businesses and public spaces close down for the week, some places in the Bay Area are still open and available to offer you distraction, solace or just a different experience from the more traditional Thanksgiving gatherings.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Attend the Thanksgiving Sunrise Ceremony\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every year, Indigenous families from across the country — and their allies — \u003ca href=\"https://www.iitc.org/event/indigenous-peoples-thanksgiving-sunrise-gathering-november-27-2025/\">head to Alcatraz Island on Thursday before sunrise\u003c/a> to commemorate \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11788540/a-look-back-at-the-occupation-of-alcatraz-50-years-later\">the historic 1969 Occupation\u003c/a>, sparked when a group of Native American students landed on the island, with the aim of returning this land to Indigenous ownership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11894291\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11894291\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/10/RS52216_063_Alcatraz_IncarcerationExhibit_10282021-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hundreds of Native American families and allies ferry to Alcatraz Island each Thanksgiving before sunrise to commemorate the historic 1969 Occupation. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The event includes several ceremonies traditional to different Native American nations, live music and some remarks from speakers. The event is family-friendly and wheelchair accessible. Boats depart from Pier 33 in San Francisco starting at 4:15 a.m. until 6 a.m., and all boats return to the city by 9 a.m. While limited tickets are available on the day, you can also \u003ca href=\"https://www.cityexperiences.com/san-francisco/city-cruises/alcatraz/programs-and-events/annual-events/indigenous-peoples-sunrise-gathering/\">buy an advance ticket online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Wander the San Francisco Botanical Garden for free\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Many museums, like the Oakland Museum of California or SFMOMA, are closed on Thursday. But not only does one of San Francisco’s most popular outdoor museums \u003ca href=\"https://gggp.org/visit/admissions-hours/\">stay open on Thanksgiving Day\u003c/a>, it’s also \u003cem>free \u003c/em>that day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Botanical Garden in Golden Gate Park confirmed that it’ll be offering free admission to everyone on Thursday, regardless of where you live (\u003ca href=\"https://gggp.org/tickets/\">free admission is usually based on San Francisco residency\u003c/a>). The garden opens from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12056799\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Moon-View-e1758300999218.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12056799\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/Moon-View-e1758300999218.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1265\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Platform viewing deck over pond in Moon Viewing Garden in San Francisco Botanical Garden with fall foliage color in Japanese Maple trees. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Saxon Holt)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And if you want to make a day of it, the nearby Conservatory of Flowers and Japanese Tea Garden will also be open on Thanksgiving. Free admission here, however, will only be on offer to members, San Francisco residents, veterans and \u003ca href=\"https://museums4all.org/\">visitors with an EBT card as part of the Museums For All program\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can’t attend in person? The event will also be streamed online via the \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/treatycouncil/\">International Indian Treaty Council’s Facebook page\u003c/a> starting at 6 a.m.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Take a hike (we have suggestions)\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is full of outdoor recreation opportunities, and \u003ca href=\"https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=37.7800771&lon=-122.4201615\">the weather is forecast to be cool and mostly sunny on Thursday\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>If you’re in need of inspiration, take a look at our recommendations for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064296/san-francisco-bay-area-holiday-hikes-things-to-do-thanksgiving-where-take-guests-holidays\">iconic Bay Area sightseeing spots\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054079/best-hikes-san-francisco-presidio-views-trails-hiking\">the best hikes in San Francisco’s Presidio\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1985496/best-bay-area-hikes-wildlife-near-me\">the trails where you’re most likely to catch a glimpse of wildlife here\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One idea for getting outdoors in the San José area:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/communications-hill-stairs\">Communications Hill\u003c/a> in the city’s southern half, and head over to Cassellino Drive, where you’ll find several easy street parking options nearby. From here, tackle the Grand Staircase, with 252 steps that lead up to one of the best views of San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for an East Bay adventure instead, head to South Fremont to climb \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/mission-peak\">Mission Peak\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Thanksgiving Day, you can access the trail through Stanford Avenue (6:30 a.m. to 9 p.m.). Roughly three miles at a steep incline, it takes \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/mission-peak\">most visitors about five hours\u003c/a> to hike all the way to the peak’s top and come back down. If you’re looking for a physical challenge to fill the holiday, this might be it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Join a Turkey Trot around the Bay (or just watch one)\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Not into hiking? What about dressing up as a turkey and running a 5K?\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>While San Francisco’s \u003ca href=\"https://sfturkeytrot.wixsite.com/sftt\">23rd Annual Thanksgiving Run and Walk\u003c/a> (more commonly known as the Turkey Trot) is no longer accepting sign-ups, you can still register for other Turkey Trots around the Bay Area, including \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandturkeytrot.org/event-details\">Oakland\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.svturkeytrot.com/\">San José\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.marinturkeytrot.com/\">Novato\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://madarc.com/turkeytrot/\">Petaluma\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://runsignup.com/Race/CA/Concord/ConcordTurkeyTrot5k\">Concord\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://raceroster.com/events/2025/107698/walnut-creek-turkey-trot\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While runners are timed, these races are pretty low-pressure and are mostly about getting folks moving at whatever speed works best for them. While you’ll have to pay a registration fee to race —with most proceeds going to local charities — you’ll be rewarded with either a medal or jersey for your efforts, on top of the sheer fun of the race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you don’t want to do any running yourself, a fun alternative is hanging out near the finish line and cheering runners on as they come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Be transported by drinks at a themed bar\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If you’re wondering “but why a \u003cem>themed \u003c/em>bar?”, let us explain: You may not always be a fan of say, tiki torches — or Harry Potter — but the commitment of themed bars to their bit comes in pretty clutch when you want to be transported to a whole different vibe, far away from Thanksgiving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two such suggestions for San Francisco alone: Enjoy a piña colada next to the indoor lagoon of \u003ca href=\"https://www.fairmont-san-francisco.com/dine/tonga-room-hurricane-bar/\">The Tonga Room & Hurricane Room\u003c/a> at the Fairmont Hotel, or watch a Harry Potter-themed drag show at \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/wizards.wands/\">Wizards & Wands\u003c/a> (and yes, they have Butter Beer) in the Marina District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you can wait a day, a host of pop-up \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/maps/best-holiday-cocktails-bars-san-francisco-bay-area\">holiday-themed bars are also coming to the Bay Area\u003c/a>, to fast-forward you far beyond Thanksgiving and into the festive season — although several of them are only open on Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>And finally … escape to the movies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ready to \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeqj5GnoFUY\">defy gravity\u003c/a> with Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande in \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/11/20/nx-s1-5612585/wicked-for-good-review-ariana-grande-cynthia-erivo\">\u003cem>Wicked For Good\u003c/em>\u003c/a>?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How about Berkeley’s own Andy Samberg voicing an awkward teenage lynx \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/zootopia-2-movie-review-292761226b0b7bee0ba470281b6832d8\">in Zootopia 2\u003c/a>?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12065470\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12065470\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20250319_FreakyTales_GC-118_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oakland’s Grand Lake Theatre will be one of several independent cinemas in the Bay Area that will stay open through the holiday week.\u003c/span> \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Or perhaps you’d rather see Brendan Fraser \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/brendan-fraser-rental-family-interview-1d3895901593b28eccd6547be8ffbfcc\">playing\u003c/a> an American living in Japan, acting out multiple roles in Rental Family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All AMC and Cinemark theaters in the Bay Area are open Thursday and through the holiday weekend. Several independent theaters, like Alamo Drafthouse in San Francisco, Mountain View and Santa Clara, Oakland’s Grand Lake Theatre and El Cerrito’s Rialto Cinemas will also have showings on Thanksgiving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/nkhan\">\u003cem>Nisa Khan\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "celebrating-a-long-lost-history-of-californias-black-trans-trailblazers",
"title": "Celebrating a ‘Long Lost History’ of California’s Black Trans Trailblazers",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”[aside postID=news_12063889 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-30-KQED.jpg']And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-much-should-you-tip-for-a-drink-at-a-bar-in-the-bay-area",
"title": "How Much Should You Tip for a Drink at a Bar in the Bay Area?",
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"content": "\u003cp>You had dinner at a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/food\">restaurant\u003c/a> and the check has just landed on your table. How much you’ll tip probably seems intuitive: between \u003ca href=\"https://www.foodandwine.com/the-only-tipping-guide-you-will-ever-need-6825830\">18% to 25% \u003c/a>of your final bill, depending on the quality of service you received.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when it comes to a night out at a bar, how much should you tip for drinks in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Putting a dollar down for each drink you ordered probably sounds familiar to folks who’ve been going out for a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And yes, “usually at a dive bar, it’s normal to leave a dollar or two if you order a beer or a well shot,” said Marissa Maldonado, a bartender in San Francisco’s Castro District who’s worked in the service industry for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in most other situations, Maldonado said, what’s considered a baseline tip at bars has changed since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic. And the bar professionals across the Bay Area that KQED spoke to — with experience across dive, cocktail and sports bars — confirmed that 20% of the total bill has become the standard bar tip in the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064542\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064542\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1240\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2-1536x992.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Even if there’s still some debate among customers about what kind of tips should be expected at the bar, there are a few core principles bartenders say you can apply to determine what kind of tip is expected. \u003ccite>(Darren Tu/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The transition from “a dollar or two per drink” to a percentage tip has gained momentum in the last five years. More businesses have \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231016-the-dark-side-of-touch-screen-tipping\">adopted point of sale technology\u003c/a> that lets patrons pay a percentage on their card before heading out, leaving behind the days when you \u003cem>needed\u003c/em> to have a cash tip ready.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How we tip has changed, but for folks on the other side of the bar, the value of tipping has not. We looked at the history and data of tipping in the Bay Area — along with the experiences of bartenders — to better understand what’s changed in how and why we compensate service when going out for drinks.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How tipping habits have shifted\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The online consumer discourse around \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/01/how-tipping-in-the-united-states-got-out-of-control.html\">“tipflation”\u003c/a> — the idea that customers feel more pressure to tip higher and more often — often points the finger at the widespread adoption of POS technology. But data shows that tipping has actually \u003cem>slumped \u003c/em>in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before the pandemic, the monthly average tip at food and beverage establishments — known in the industry as F&B — across the region hovered slightly above 14%, at Bay Area businesses that use POS technology from the company Square (data below). This average also includes restaurant workers, who usually receive \u003ca href=\"https://squareup.com/us/en/press/summer-restaurant-report-2025\">fewer tips than bartenders\u003c/a>, according to Square’s own data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12065041\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1130\" height=\"636\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1.png 1130w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1-160x90.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1130px) 100vw, 1130px\">\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When COVID-19 restrictions forced bars and restaurants to limit operations in 2020, patrons started tipping more. By April 2020, the average tip at F&B businesses in San Francisco had increased to roughly 16.5%: up more than two percentage points from the previous year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after that peak, F&B tipping has slowly decreased. Data from Square shows that the monthly average for the Bay Area in June 2025 was 14.22% — lower than it was at any time in 2019. Nationally, tipping across all F&B establishments has not grown in the past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This trend coincides with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036654/2025-recession-indicator-meme-us-economy\">a decline in consumer confidence\u003c/a> — how individual consumers feel about the overall direction of the economy. Tips make about a quarter of what F&B workers make in income, a Square spokesperson said, so lower tips “can signal deeper labor market challenges.” And as tips have declined since the pandemic, grocery prices have gone up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12056768/grocery-prices-have-jumped-up-and-theres-no-relief-in-sight\">by almost 30%\u003c/a> and Bay Area rent prices \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/rent-cost-burden-bay-area-21067582.php\">have rebounded\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Once people felt things were going back to normal [after the height of the pandemic]l, tips started to go down across the board,” said Erika Carig, a bar professional in Santa Clara County for the last decade. “But we are still doing this work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The quality of our service has not gone down,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A brief history of tipping\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For over a century, service industry workers in the United States have depended on voluntary tips from customers to make a living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Civil War, formerly enslaved Black Americans \u003ca href=\"https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/\">sought jobs across different industries\u003c/a>, including restaurants and the growing railroad network. But many employers, knowing that they could easily exploit Black workers, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/30/how-tipping-came-to-the-us.html\">offered a cruel bargain\u003c/a>: a job, but with little to no pay. Some businesses even formally built tips \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/pullman-porters\">into their payment structure\u003c/a>.[aside postID=news_12060700 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251016-DUBAICHOCOLATES-09-BL-KQED.jpg']“Tipping is rooted in a lot of racism,” said Aleka Ross, a San Francisco-based bar professional with service experience on both the West and East Coasts. “Employers didn’t want to pay Black Americans what they were owed … how they got around that was tipping.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1966, it became \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/committee-report/116th-congress/house-report/150/1\">federal policy\u003c/a> to pay service workers less than the minimum wage, as long as tips made up the difference. Businesses could now pay their employees less and customers, in turn, would now be partly responsible for ensuring fair compensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And like any other form of income, Uncle Sam wanted his share. For decades, the Internal Revenue Service has expected service workers to report tips in their annual tax returns — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f4070--2005.pdf\">submit extra paperwork\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But big changes could be coming: after Congress passed the One Big Beautiful Bill Act earlier this year, the IRS \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/treasury-irs-issue-guidance-listing-occupations-where-workers-customarily-and-regularly-receive-tips-under-the-one-big-beautiful-bill\">is now considering\u003c/a> allowing workers making less than $150,000 to deduct up to $25,000 in tips per year on federal taxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Making a living at the bar\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In most of the country, the federal minimum wage for tipped workers is \u003ca href=\"https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped\">$2.13 an hour\u003c/a>, compared to $7.25 an hour in almost all other industries — and employers can even deduct meals and lodging from that amount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California, however, has its own state-mandated minimum wage of \u003ca href=\"https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/minimum_wage.htm\">$16.50 an hour\u003c/a>. Individual cities like San Francisco — which mandates an hourly rate of $19.18 — go even higher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064544\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064544\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1240\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3-1536x992.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">For over a century, service industry workers in the United States have depended on voluntary tips from customers to make a living. \u003ccite>(Darren Tu/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“But we still rely on tips to make a livable wage,” said Ila Sangupta, an independent bar professional living in San Francisco. Without tips, Sangupta said, she would not be able to afford to live in the city where she works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other bartenders KQED spoke with shared that despite qualifying for minimum-wage rates, they still have to work multiple jobs to cover essential needs, like healthcare coverage or child care. San Francisco requires employers with at least 20 employees to spend \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/information--health-care-security-ordinance\">a certain amount on workers’ healthcare\u003c/a>, but almost everywhere else in California, businesses are only required to provide health insurance benefits \u003ca href=\"https://legalaidatwork.org/factsheet/health-insurance-employment/\">when they have 50 or more full-time employees\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/snap-helps-millions-of-workers-in-low-paying-jobs\">recent data\u003c/a> shows that 27.6% of workers nationwide receiving SNAP benefits (also known as food stamps) are employed in the service industry — by far the largest group with this support. And when the recent federal government shutdown \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12060770/snap-calfresh-food-stamps-government-shutdown-november-payments-ebt\">affected SNAP funds\u003c/a> at the start of November, that also impacted thousands of bar and restaurant workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s hard to work in this industry,” said Carig from Santa Clara County, “and not get paid a livable wage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What bartenders want you to know about tipping\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Even if there’s still some debate among customers about what kind of tips should be expected at the bar, there are a few core principles bartenders say you can apply to determine what kind of tip is expected — and is fairest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How fancy are your drinks?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bartenders KQED spoke with suggested you could first consider how elaborate your drinks were, as this usually tracks with how much time and attention your bartender gave you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Does the drink have at least two or more touches? Does it have a garnish? Am I cooling a glass?” Ross said. “I hope the client can understand the service and time I’m dedicating to making a great cocktail.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How big — and demanding — is your party?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Serving bigger parties also requires more of the bartender’s service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A bigger tip sounds great in a situation where you see that we’re taking extra care of you or you have a larger party that has a bunch of different requests,” Sangupta said. “If you’re making 15 espresso martinis, it’s a lot of work for a bartender to do versus 15 vodka sodas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you or your friends were a bit \u003cem>too \u003c/em>rowdy, it’s also a good idea to take that into account, say professionals — especially if your bartender had to work extra to accommodate you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064546\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064546\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1240\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1-1536x992.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The transition from “a dollar or two per drink” to a percentage tip has gained momentum in the last five years. \u003ccite>(Darren Tu/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you come in drunk with your friends during last call, I don’t mind making you a drink,” said Carig from Santa Clara County. “But people need to be mindful about the way that they’re treating workers and the energy they’re giving to workers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And that shows all the way through to when you sign off on your check,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What kind of service did you receive?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Tipping doesn’t go from your pocket to the owner of the establishment,” Maldonado said. “It’s thanking that person who has a smile on their face and giving great service and doing it quickly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this vein, it’s still helpful to think about bar tipping as you do in restaurants — and also factoring in that, like servers, bartenders still deal with unique situations. If you’re at a busy dive bar and your drink is taking a while, keep in mind there may only be one bartender working that night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>… and cash is king.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while they acknowledged that it’s not always available, most bartenders KQED spoke with mentioned that cash is more convenient for tipping because tips on a card usually are passed on by employers later in the pay period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "We talked to bartenders — and looked at the data — to understand how a standard drink tip has shifted. \r\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>You had dinner at a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/food\">restaurant\u003c/a> and the check has just landed on your table. How much you’ll tip probably seems intuitive: between \u003ca href=\"https://www.foodandwine.com/the-only-tipping-guide-you-will-ever-need-6825830\">18% to 25% \u003c/a>of your final bill, depending on the quality of service you received.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when it comes to a night out at a bar, how much should you tip for drinks in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Putting a dollar down for each drink you ordered probably sounds familiar to folks who’ve been going out for a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And yes, “usually at a dive bar, it’s normal to leave a dollar or two if you order a beer or a well shot,” said Marissa Maldonado, a bartender in San Francisco’s Castro District who’s worked in the service industry for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in most other situations, Maldonado said, what’s considered a baseline tip at bars has changed since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic. And the bar professionals across the Bay Area that KQED spoke to — with experience across dive, cocktail and sports bars — confirmed that 20% of the total bill has become the standard bar tip in the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064542\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064542\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1240\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bart-Tipping_Body_2-1536x992.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Even if there’s still some debate among customers about what kind of tips should be expected at the bar, there are a few core principles bartenders say you can apply to determine what kind of tip is expected. \u003ccite>(Darren Tu/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The transition from “a dollar or two per drink” to a percentage tip has gained momentum in the last five years. More businesses have \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231016-the-dark-side-of-touch-screen-tipping\">adopted point of sale technology\u003c/a> that lets patrons pay a percentage on their card before heading out, leaving behind the days when you \u003cem>needed\u003c/em> to have a cash tip ready.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How we tip has changed, but for folks on the other side of the bar, the value of tipping has not. We looked at the history and data of tipping in the Bay Area — along with the experiences of bartenders — to better understand what’s changed in how and why we compensate service when going out for drinks.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How tipping habits have shifted\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The online consumer discourse around \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/01/how-tipping-in-the-united-states-got-out-of-control.html\">“tipflation”\u003c/a> — the idea that customers feel more pressure to tip higher and more often — often points the finger at the widespread adoption of POS technology. But data shows that tipping has actually \u003cem>slumped \u003c/em>in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before the pandemic, the monthly average tip at food and beverage establishments — known in the industry as F&B — across the region hovered slightly above 14%, at Bay Area businesses that use POS technology from the company Square (data below). This average also includes restaurant workers, who usually receive \u003ca href=\"https://squareup.com/us/en/press/summer-restaurant-report-2025\">fewer tips than bartenders\u003c/a>, according to Square’s own data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12065041\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1130\" height=\"636\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1.png 1130w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/tippingsquare20192025-1-160x90.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1130px) 100vw, 1130px\">\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When COVID-19 restrictions forced bars and restaurants to limit operations in 2020, patrons started tipping more. By April 2020, the average tip at F&B businesses in San Francisco had increased to roughly 16.5%: up more than two percentage points from the previous year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after that peak, F&B tipping has slowly decreased. Data from Square shows that the monthly average for the Bay Area in June 2025 was 14.22% — lower than it was at any time in 2019. Nationally, tipping across all F&B establishments has not grown in the past year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This trend coincides with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036654/2025-recession-indicator-meme-us-economy\">a decline in consumer confidence\u003c/a> — how individual consumers feel about the overall direction of the economy. Tips make about a quarter of what F&B workers make in income, a Square spokesperson said, so lower tips “can signal deeper labor market challenges.” And as tips have declined since the pandemic, grocery prices have gone up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12056768/grocery-prices-have-jumped-up-and-theres-no-relief-in-sight\">by almost 30%\u003c/a> and Bay Area rent prices \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/rent-cost-burden-bay-area-21067582.php\">have rebounded\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Once people felt things were going back to normal [after the height of the pandemic]l, tips started to go down across the board,” said Erika Carig, a bar professional in Santa Clara County for the last decade. “But we are still doing this work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The quality of our service has not gone down,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A brief history of tipping\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For over a century, service industry workers in the United States have depended on voluntary tips from customers to make a living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Civil War, formerly enslaved Black Americans \u003ca href=\"https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/\">sought jobs across different industries\u003c/a>, including restaurants and the growing railroad network. But many employers, knowing that they could easily exploit Black workers, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/30/how-tipping-came-to-the-us.html\">offered a cruel bargain\u003c/a>: a job, but with little to no pay. Some businesses even formally built tips \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/pullman-porters\">into their payment structure\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Tipping is rooted in a lot of racism,” said Aleka Ross, a San Francisco-based bar professional with service experience on both the West and East Coasts. “Employers didn’t want to pay Black Americans what they were owed … how they got around that was tipping.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 1966, it became \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/committee-report/116th-congress/house-report/150/1\">federal policy\u003c/a> to pay service workers less than the minimum wage, as long as tips made up the difference. Businesses could now pay their employees less and customers, in turn, would now be partly responsible for ensuring fair compensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And like any other form of income, Uncle Sam wanted his share. For decades, the Internal Revenue Service has expected service workers to report tips in their annual tax returns — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f4070--2005.pdf\">submit extra paperwork\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But big changes could be coming: after Congress passed the One Big Beautiful Bill Act earlier this year, the IRS \u003ca href=\"https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/treasury-irs-issue-guidance-listing-occupations-where-workers-customarily-and-regularly-receive-tips-under-the-one-big-beautiful-bill\">is now considering\u003c/a> allowing workers making less than $150,000 to deduct up to $25,000 in tips per year on federal taxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Making a living at the bar\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In most of the country, the federal minimum wage for tipped workers is \u003ca href=\"https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped\">$2.13 an hour\u003c/a>, compared to $7.25 an hour in almost all other industries — and employers can even deduct meals and lodging from that amount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California, however, has its own state-mandated minimum wage of \u003ca href=\"https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/minimum_wage.htm\">$16.50 an hour\u003c/a>. Individual cities like San Francisco — which mandates an hourly rate of $19.18 — go even higher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064544\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064544\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1240\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_3-1536x992.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">For over a century, service industry workers in the United States have depended on voluntary tips from customers to make a living. \u003ccite>(Darren Tu/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“But we still rely on tips to make a livable wage,” said Ila Sangupta, an independent bar professional living in San Francisco. Without tips, Sangupta said, she would not be able to afford to live in the city where she works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other bartenders KQED spoke with shared that despite qualifying for minimum-wage rates, they still have to work multiple jobs to cover essential needs, like healthcare coverage or child care. San Francisco requires employers with at least 20 employees to spend \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/information--health-care-security-ordinance\">a certain amount on workers’ healthcare\u003c/a>, but almost everywhere else in California, businesses are only required to provide health insurance benefits \u003ca href=\"https://legalaidatwork.org/factsheet/health-insurance-employment/\">when they have 50 or more full-time employees\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/snap-helps-millions-of-workers-in-low-paying-jobs\">recent data\u003c/a> shows that 27.6% of workers nationwide receiving SNAP benefits (also known as food stamps) are employed in the service industry — by far the largest group with this support. And when the recent federal government shutdown \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12060770/snap-calfresh-food-stamps-government-shutdown-november-payments-ebt\">affected SNAP funds\u003c/a> at the start of November, that also impacted thousands of bar and restaurant workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s hard to work in this industry,” said Carig from Santa Clara County, “and not get paid a livable wage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What bartenders want you to know about tipping\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Even if there’s still some debate among customers about what kind of tips should be expected at the bar, there are a few core principles bartenders say you can apply to determine what kind of tip is expected — and is fairest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How fancy are your drinks?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bartenders KQED spoke with suggested you could first consider how elaborate your drinks were, as this usually tracks with how much time and attention your bartender gave you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Does the drink have at least two or more touches? Does it have a garnish? Am I cooling a glass?” Ross said. “I hope the client can understand the service and time I’m dedicating to making a great cocktail.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How big — and demanding — is your party?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Serving bigger parties also requires more of the bartender’s service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A bigger tip sounds great in a situation where you see that we’re taking extra care of you or you have a larger party that has a bunch of different requests,” Sangupta said. “If you’re making 15 espresso martinis, it’s a lot of work for a bartender to do versus 15 vodka sodas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you or your friends were a bit \u003cem>too \u003c/em>rowdy, it’s also a good idea to take that into account, say professionals — especially if your bartender had to work extra to accommodate you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12064546\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12064546\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1240\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/Bar-Tipping_Body_1-1536x992.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The transition from “a dollar or two per drink” to a percentage tip has gained momentum in the last five years. \u003ccite>(Darren Tu/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you come in drunk with your friends during last call, I don’t mind making you a drink,” said Carig from Santa Clara County. “But people need to be mindful about the way that they’re treating workers and the energy they’re giving to workers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And that shows all the way through to when you sign off on your check,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What kind of service did you receive?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Tipping doesn’t go from your pocket to the owner of the establishment,” Maldonado said. “It’s thanking that person who has a smile on their face and giving great service and doing it quickly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this vein, it’s still helpful to think about bar tipping as you do in restaurants — and also factoring in that, like servers, bartenders still deal with unique situations. If you’re at a busy dive bar and your drink is taking a while, keep in mind there may only be one bartender working that night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>… and cash is king.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while they acknowledged that it’s not always available, most bartenders KQED spoke with mentioned that cash is more convenient for tipping because tips on a card usually are passed on by employers later in the pay period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations",
"title": "'It's Self-Love': Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation",
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"headTitle": "‘It’s Self-Love’: Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we enter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977169/transgender-history-bay-area-san-francisco-lgbtq-trans-bay\">Transgender Awareness Month\u003c/a>, we shift the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties in conversation with transgender elders whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.[aside postID=news_12061805 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/1.png']And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "This week’s special episode of The California Report Magazine features a conversation between a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist from the Bay Area and a Gen Z nonbinary Latinx organizer from Sacramento about resilience, dignity and self-expression. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we enter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977169/transgender-history-bay-area-san-francisco-lgbtq-trans-bay\">Transgender Awareness Month\u003c/a>, we shift the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties in conversation with transgender elders whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/loveyouforyou\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll explore how parents stretch, adapt and grow alongside their children, learning in real time what it means to support their trans and gender-expansive kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear a conversation between a 12-year-old transgender girl and her mom, which ranges from the joys of dancing and shopping to confronting the current anti-trans climate. We’ll also meet two gender-expansive siblings, who talk to their dad about what it’s been like to support one another, and reflect on how well their parents navigated their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A 12-year-old transgender girl (she/her) and her mom\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Roberto Santiago, a father and his gender expansive kids, Eloui, 14 (xe/xyr) and Ryu, 15 (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1846671904\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and it’s The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California, talking to people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063881\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063881\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 12-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her mom. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their parents about the parents’ journey to fully understand and support their child’s gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could but there have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> You kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’ll hear from this dad and his kids later in the show, but we’re going to start this episode with a 12-year-old girl in conversation with her mom. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, are not using their names because of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>So me first? OK. So I am in seventh grade. I live in the Bay Area. My pronouns are she, her. And this is my mom!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>All right. And I’m her mom. My pronouns are also she, her. And I also live in the Bay Area, because we live together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>What grade are you in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh, I’m, I graduated from um a really big grade, and now I’m not in school anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>A really big grade. OK. So yeah, I’m 12 right now, almost 13. And when I started, like, really transitioning from a boy to a girl, I was like, how old was I? I was like six, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I mean, we can talk about going back to when you were three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I was just about to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>No, wait, I want to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> So, when I was 3 years old, I had like developed a obsession with wearing dresses and sometimes I wore dresses to preschool and it was like so fun because I was so fancy. Also, I like danced around in dresses with my brother a bunch like just like go crazy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>But of course, we didn’t have dresses for you. That wasn’t part of your wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>For me, yeah. Yeah, that wasn’t a part of my wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> So it was towels or it was…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Or it was yeah, or was your old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>My old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> And I was like so fancy, and I pranced around the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were trying in vain to get you to get in a beautiful Christmas suit to go to a Christmas party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “No! I, I don’t want to be handsome. I want to be beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. Yeah, there was no coming out. It was always just was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Always like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never one of those, like manly boys, masculine boys. When I was, like, tiny, I would kind of describe myself as that one little gay boy with, like, my pink ruffles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How do you, how did you decide, or how is it clear to you that you’re not the little gay boy, but you’re a girl?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I think one day there’s like this bus with the mad ladies on it, just like models like looking, like glaring at the screen like they always do, and I was like ‘Oh, that looks fun, I want to do that,’ and also I’ve always had an obsession with dresses and never suits or anything like that. So I think it just like gradually happened. It was like meant to be. ‘Cause I started feeling like that at a really young age. I followed my gut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never ever doubtful that I wanted to be a girl. I never had doubt in that. I was always sure that this is what I was going to be when I grew up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think we spent a lot of time kind of considering that and, and making sure it’s the right path and talking you and me and talking to therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And how are you doing now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am doing good. I’m doing pretty fine. I am kind of like antsy to get on, like to finally start estrogen because we put in the puberty blocker implant a while ago. I’m feeling pretty content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Um, how has your view changed on the LGBTQ+ community because I’m your kid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Good question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think I’ve learned a lot. I guess what I didn’t know was the breadth of people’s experience and how much range there is in what someone feels in terms of their own gender but also their sexuality, and how there are lots of different combinations and ways that that’s expressed, and it’s all cool and it…you can be happy anywhere on that spectrum, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely didn’t know how a transition is managed and how you know there’s a whole field of doctors and therapists and people who are there to care for us and make sure that it’s safe and healthy and that we’re happy. I’m like really happy to know that community now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ve like caught you reading a few books about this, And that’s nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What makes you happy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I would have to say friends and mall shopping trips. Because friends, they’re my friends and they make me happy. And the reason why they’re my friends is that they make me happy. And the mall trip, it’s because I have a bit of a shopping addiction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I know. What is it that you love to buy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Mostly beauty products, like makeup and skincare and hair care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Have you been coaching me a little bit on all of that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have, I have, what product are you wearing right now on your lips?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t know. I think it’s called lippy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’re not serious, right? You know what product it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Tell me. How do you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I guided you to the exact place in store. Like told you, the directions like because I know that store by heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m in good hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Tell me about your friends a little more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>My friends, most of them are from school. We have like a huge friend group. But I’m especially friends with like, I have two like really close friends, and we’re kind of like a trio and we like do everything together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I love that for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>We’re like a bit too close of friends because we were not allowed to sit together anymore because we talked too much to each other. You didn’t hear that, well, no, it’s just a little thing, like if we’re working together on a group project, we get to sit together, but anything else, no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, so tell me about life outside of school. What are you, what’s your greatest accomplishment and what are you most proud of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Outside of school, I would say I’m most proud of dance, um, and that’s because I’m on my ninth year of dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What’s the gift that dance has given you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t know, maybe uh, the gift that dance has given me is confidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you remember what you said after the first time you did get up on stage? Do you remember your reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember exactly what I said, but my reaction was like, oh my god, that’s so, that’s easy, like that’s not scary at all, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> And you said, the words that you said were, “I was born to be on that stage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Actually, yeah. Oh my god, I don’t remember that at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel like being trans makes you different from other kids at school or at dance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I do not feel that way because none of my personal friends knows, I haven’t like opened up to them yet, so like, they just treat me like another girl at our school who just happens to be their friend, so then we just do all the normal stuff together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Do you think anything would change if you did share with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I’m really not sure. Because I have a bunch of friends at school, and I’m not sure, like, how they view, like, trans people or the LGBTQ+ community, so like ‘cause we don’t really talk about that stuff, um, so I’m not sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to know without bringing it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah. If one of your friends found out, or like, if you told one of your friends that you had a trans kid, would that affect the way they viewed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ve had some experience with that. I think I have told lots of friends. Their reaction has been overwhelmingly wonderful. And then it becomes a non-issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s what happens. I’m only friends with good people. Do you feel like anything about being trans has made you feel, has made your experience different, like has made you grow up faster, made you think about things more deeply?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Uh\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I do think so in some ways because you have to like, I had to like snap back into the real world sometimes to see what’s going on with like politics and stuff like that. And like sometimes there’s bad news about that. So I feel like I’ve had to mature faster than normal, to like, I guess, process that. And also you’ve told me to think to the future, like how would this transition like affect me in the future a bunch. So, yeah, I do think so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you try to stay educated about what’s happening in politics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How does it make you feel when you hear about something that is negative about LGBTQ people in the news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t really feel offended. Like, it’s kind of weird, because I’ve like started to view myself as just another girl, like a normal, like a normal person, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Just let it roll off you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mostly just laugh at it because it’s so ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s a good attitude\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Why are you looking at me like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I just love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Um, what do you most proud of about your mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am proud how you have completely accepted me and like adapted or like learned everything you can about me and people like me, and I think that’s just really sweet, and I’m also proud how you’ve also accepted that you are not walking out of this world without a full encyclopedia of skincare and makeup in your head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I knew this was going to go back to the mall. Yeah, I’ve started my journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’ve started your journey. You’ve started your retinol peptide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m trying to be open to that journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, you are. I dunno, I’m glad I’m on this journey with you, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Aww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Stop, no, don’t make a big deal about that. No, don’t get all mushy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, I’m very happy to be your partner in this journey as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sasha Khokha: Several of the conversations we’ve brought you in our\u003cem> Love You for You series\u003c/em> — like the one you just heard — have been between transgender kids and their moms. Now we’re going to hear from a dad — Roberto Santiago — talking with his two gender-expansive kids. Ryu is 15 and uses they/them pronouns, and Eloui, who’s 14 and uses neopronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Eloui, just for people who may not know, I don’t think everyone knows about neopronouns, so could you just talk a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Um, so, uh, neopronoun is any pronoun outside of he, him, she, her, they, them. Any pronoun other than that is a neopronoun. So my pronouns, xe/xyr, are spelled X-E-X-Y-R.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Ryu and Eloui talk with their dad about what they think their parents have done right on their gender journey and what they could do better. And also what it’s been like having a sibling who’s also gender-expansive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You guys have been like so supportive of each other. Ryu got your pronouns before I did, much more consistently, and what has it been like, I mean, who’s having a similar journey, you know, how, what has that done for you in terms of like your ability to explore your gender or whatever?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, Ryu, my entire life has been like the person I talk to, the person who gets me. Like, I don’t know, so if it was really good to have like the person who’s always understood me more than most other people, like understand this as well. That’s been really great, and it’s nice to have someone to rely on to talk about the issues of a genderqueer child in America, because like they don’t get all of it. We don’t experience gender dysphoria the same way, but like it is, it’s still nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I don’t even experience gender dysphoria at all, really, and thank goodness for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Lucky you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I cannot imagine. Um, Eloui was also, you know, huge in terms of my, my initial just coming out, right? Just like having that person essentially test the waters for me, right? And see how everyone in my community and everyone in my family was so wonderful and loving and accepting. And so like, I, you know, really just got my, got to do my transition almost entirely risk-free. Thanks to Eloui.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And I remember being very overjoyed when Ryu came out. I was like, someone who gets it, right here, who lives in my house, across the hallway, in my same room, whatever, it was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And so I’m curious from you guys, like what what about gender expression, like you’re for yourself, like what has that been like, and then what do you think the world should know? Like what’s misunderstood about gender expression?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> I really like to wear skirts and dresses, but I also hate to be perceived as female. So something that’s been hard for me, especially recently, is like I want to be pretty and girlie without being seen as female. I want, I’ve always said that if people are going to assume my gender as binary, male or female, I would rather them see me as male.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’ve always just worn the clothing that like feels most comfortable on my body. Which is 90% of the time just gonna be you know like, a T-shirt and some sweatpants. Uh, for me, the biggest part of gender expression in my life has always been my hair. I throughout my life have have gone through having very short and very long hair, and I currently have long hair. Um, and I, I like both because, and you know, I generally style it in a way that is perceived as androgynous because I like the way that that looks on me. And two, it’s literally just like convenient, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess I do a lot of things, mostly that are typically perceived as female. Um, I like to bake. I like cook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You also play rugby and hit people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eloui: I also play rugby and hit people, and I like to get dirty, and I like to play video games so like I’m, I feel like I am kind of pretty in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’ll be honest, I think that just makes both of you like typical kids for me, right? Like what I take from that, from what you all are saying is, that you know, there’s a gender binary, but also we know that there’s a gender, you know, spectrum, right? And some people lean hard into the binary, whether they’re cis or transgender, right. And, and some people, you know, who are transgender will make that completely binary flip, right. Whereas there’s also all these people out there who are living their lives somewhere in between, and their gender expression is coming somewhere in between. And I think that that’s really important for people like me who are still learning to not make assumptions, right? And to just, again, it goes back to like, I’m gonna wait for you to tell me who you are and not make assumptions about people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I’m curious. So what’s been your experience like with your classmates and your peers and maybe your teammates at rugby?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I mean, I was expecting, you know, honestly, more of a kind of positive response. Like I wasn’t really expecting like a whole party or anything, right? But I was expecting people to at least make an effort. I told everyone that I use they/them and they continue using he/him. And I would, you, I corrected them for about, you know, three or four months, which, always ‘sorry’ and then nothing would change. Uh, and I just, I kind of got tired of it and I just, you know, was, was a boy at rugby essentially for another couple of years before I quit. And I think that’s part of the reason why I quit was just like, nothing malicious was happening, but nobody was making an effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I went back to rugby in January, and I am playing on a girls’ team. And like, there has been some weirdness because I didn’t actually like, I told, I didn’t make a big announcement when I joined the team. I kinda told people one by one, starting with the people that I thought would be chill with it. And then I kinda accidentally told like all of the like low-key, kinda mean girls on the team that I was trans. And ever since then, you know, I could feel them like kinda giving me weird looks and being weird and like trying to be extra nice. And I get that a lot with like people trying to be nice. And I know a lot of the time it comes from a place of sincerity. And they’re not always trying to be mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>It just feels patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I am a person like you and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>So Eloui, at a certain point, a couple years ago, you had been playing rugby, and then you stopped for a couple of years, and you still sort of held on to being a rugby player as part of your identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>It’s a really important part of me, it’s something that I take a lot of pride in, it makes me feel tough, and I wannabe tough, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But then this year you went back, and I think one of the big differences that people probably don’t know about youth rugby or maybe youth sports in general is that when you play up until about middle school, the teams are co-ed, right? So you played on a co-ed team when you were little. Then you stopped. Did you stop because it was becoming gendered? What was it like going back to a gendered team?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>There were two big reasons I stopped, and the first one was I quit rugby the same day I found out Ryu quit rugby, because Ryu was such an important part of my rugby experience, I didn’t want to do rugby without them, but yeah, the other thing was definitely, I am so scared of having to play on a gendered team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And then you did for a season?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And honestly, most of it was actually a really good experience for me. All the girls that I immediately made friends with were like super sweet about it and so understanding. And like my favorite coach got it immediately and the other kids, it took a minute, but they’re getting there. Um there’s a part of me that is femme and is a girl and helped me connect to that in a way that’s not associated with femininity because it’s a tough, tackle you into the mud sport. So it was a really like almost healing experience for all the parts of me. It was also hard because people would say, OK, for the photo, everyone say, ‘girls rugby.’ Or like, ‘OK, girls’ like to go to do this, and I tried to correct them every time, but like they didn’t always listen to me. And that was a struggle because like, you have to find the middle ground between sticking up for yourself and just accepting that like, I signed up to be on a girl’s team and I’m just gonna have to let it go sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But also, we could provide maybe a list of like group pronouns that are not gendered, right? Hey y’all, hey folks, hey team, hey players, hey, you know, that can help counteract that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But I am curious, like, you know, me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could, right? And we’re pretty open-minded. There have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong? What would you tell parents or kids or whatever in the world about your experience being parented?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, less so these days, but like when I was younger, one thing that you, and especially mom, would do a lot of the time, is you kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? And I really appreciate it, and I really did appreciate it. But like someone would misgender me, and I would start to correct them. And like one of you, mom or you, would often, I don’t even think without realizing it, just kind of jump in and correct them for me. And I appreciate that a lot. And I know it’s like parent protectiveness, but one thing I would say is let the kid figure it out for themself. And if they don’t say anything, to make sure that the kid knows that you’re supporting them, correct the person. But like give, I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and I think something that I started to do with both of you is going into a situation or like if we had like a little moment as an aside, being able to just ask you, like, do, do you wanna say anything? Do you want me to say anything, or do you just wanna let it go? And letting you guys lead from that perspective. Once I learned how to do that, I think that was helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that was a big upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>But the main thing that you got right, and the most important thing, is to just say yes to your kid and listen to what they’re asking of you, right? Like, at the end of the day, if they want to change their name or change their pronouns, the very least you can do is just respect that because it costs nothing to be kind to them and to validate them. And the alternative can be some really scary stuff that your kid has to go through, right? They can feel unloved, they can feel like nobody wants them, right, because if your parents, the people that society and your instincts and everything tells you should be the people that love and care for you the most. And you have this huge facet of your being that you feel and they just won’t accept that. And in some cases, they won’t even accept any of you just because of that part of you. Um, that can feel awful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I’m wondering, like, do you have any misgivings? Do you feel like there’s anything that like you could have really done better, because I know for me personally, I feel like my trans experience in relation to you two at least has has been wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think some of my missteps came even before either of you came out. So like Ryu, I think about that time, you know, you wanted to wear your hair in a ponytail and a scrunchie to day care. And I was like, “That’s fine. You can do that, but you have to understand some kids aren’t going to get it and they might tease you.” And you, the look on your face, when I said that, like, I thought I was trying to be supportive, right? Because I wasn’t saying don’t do it. I was just wanting to prepare you for the fact that other people might not be as accepting. And even that kind of crushed you a little bit. And I felt so bad, because I was getting out of the car to go to school, and I was like, I didn’t have a chance to fix it. I learned so much from that. I think a lot of the things that I regret or that I feel bad about are things that you, you all never saw. You know, like conversations I may have had early on with people that you weren’t privy to, but that’s where I was probably expressing my, my doubts and my misgivings and my fears and, you know, just how new it was. And I think that that’s something that it’s important for parents to know, and I think I’ve said this, but it’s OK to not be there yet. Right? Like, don’t show your kid that. Right. But if you internally feel like, “Oh, no, like, I don’t know about this, like I dunno how I feel about this,” as long as you’re kind of working through that yourself and not putting that on your kid, I work through it. Right. And the goal I hope is to get to a place of acceptance, but, you know, don’t totally beat yourself up either if you’re like, ‘I’m freaking out.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I think what you did right is like all the things. Everything\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Right on. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so, you know, you’ve been living this life for a little while, and there’s a lot going on in the world right now. What are you hopeful for for the future for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, “Hey, I’m trans.” And everyone’s like, “OK, cool.” And trans people can get access to their gender-affirming care the same way cis people can get access to their gender-affirming care. I would just like to see trans people become more integrated, accepted, normalized members of society instead of sort of being ostracized and feeling othered and having to create our own safe spaces. I think the world should just be a safe space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Right. You want to be mundane. You don’t want to be a topic of conversation anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Like I want to be a person. I wanna be all kinds of things, and also trans. I don’t wanna be trans and all kinds of things because I feel like how a lot of people see me. I’m just me, I’m like you. You know, I’m not an exhibit, I am not an alien. I’m, I’m just a person. I want to be seen as that. Like, “Oh, I’m Eloui and I like purple. Oh, I am Eloui, also I’m trans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>This has been really great, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the next bit of time brings us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Thanks for supporting us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’m glad that there are spaces for like stories like this to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Love you, bud.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui\u003c/strong>: Love you, Dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Roberto Santiago and his two kids, 14-year-old Eloui and 15-year-old Ryu, as part of our series \u003cem>Love You For You, \u003c/em>where transgender kids talk about what it means to thrive with support from the adults in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho with help from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\"> Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a> for all his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. You can find all the interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You \u003c/em>series on our podcast. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week on the show, we’ll meet some transgender elders who’ve got some words of wisdom for a younger generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Quetzali: \u003c/strong>Do you have any advice for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donna Persona: \u003c/strong>I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim, identify as a warrior, a fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine. Your state, your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/loveyouforyou\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll explore how parents stretch, adapt and grow alongside their children, learning in real time what it means to support their trans and gender-expansive kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear a conversation between a 12-year-old transgender girl and her mom, which ranges from the joys of dancing and shopping to confronting the current anti-trans climate. We’ll also meet two gender-expansive siblings, who talk to their dad about what it’s been like to support one another, and reflect on how well their parents navigated their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A 12-year-old transgender girl (she/her) and her mom\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Roberto Santiago, a father and his gender expansive kids, Eloui, 14 (xe/xyr) and Ryu, 15 (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1846671904\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and it’s The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California, talking to people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063881\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063881\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 12-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her mom. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their parents about the parents’ journey to fully understand and support their child’s gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could but there have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> You kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’ll hear from this dad and his kids later in the show, but we’re going to start this episode with a 12-year-old girl in conversation with her mom. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, are not using their names because of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>So me first? OK. So I am in seventh grade. I live in the Bay Area. My pronouns are she, her. And this is my mom!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>All right. And I’m her mom. My pronouns are also she, her. And I also live in the Bay Area, because we live together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>What grade are you in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh, I’m, I graduated from um a really big grade, and now I’m not in school anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>A really big grade. OK. So yeah, I’m 12 right now, almost 13. And when I started, like, really transitioning from a boy to a girl, I was like, how old was I? I was like six, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I mean, we can talk about going back to when you were three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I was just about to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>No, wait, I want to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> So, when I was 3 years old, I had like developed a obsession with wearing dresses and sometimes I wore dresses to preschool and it was like so fun because I was so fancy. Also, I like danced around in dresses with my brother a bunch like just like go crazy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>But of course, we didn’t have dresses for you. That wasn’t part of your wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>For me, yeah. Yeah, that wasn’t a part of my wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> So it was towels or it was…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Or it was yeah, or was your old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>My old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> And I was like so fancy, and I pranced around the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were trying in vain to get you to get in a beautiful Christmas suit to go to a Christmas party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “No! I, I don’t want to be handsome. I want to be beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. Yeah, there was no coming out. It was always just was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Always like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never one of those, like manly boys, masculine boys. When I was, like, tiny, I would kind of describe myself as that one little gay boy with, like, my pink ruffles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How do you, how did you decide, or how is it clear to you that you’re not the little gay boy, but you’re a girl?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I think one day there’s like this bus with the mad ladies on it, just like models like looking, like glaring at the screen like they always do, and I was like ‘Oh, that looks fun, I want to do that,’ and also I’ve always had an obsession with dresses and never suits or anything like that. So I think it just like gradually happened. It was like meant to be. ‘Cause I started feeling like that at a really young age. I followed my gut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never ever doubtful that I wanted to be a girl. I never had doubt in that. I was always sure that this is what I was going to be when I grew up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think we spent a lot of time kind of considering that and, and making sure it’s the right path and talking you and me and talking to therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And how are you doing now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am doing good. I’m doing pretty fine. I am kind of like antsy to get on, like to finally start estrogen because we put in the puberty blocker implant a while ago. I’m feeling pretty content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Um, how has your view changed on the LGBTQ+ community because I’m your kid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Good question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think I’ve learned a lot. I guess what I didn’t know was the breadth of people’s experience and how much range there is in what someone feels in terms of their own gender but also their sexuality, and how there are lots of different combinations and ways that that’s expressed, and it’s all cool and it…you can be happy anywhere on that spectrum, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely didn’t know how a transition is managed and how you know there’s a whole field of doctors and therapists and people who are there to care for us and make sure that it’s safe and healthy and that we’re happy. I’m like really happy to know that community now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ve like caught you reading a few books about this, And that’s nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What makes you happy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I would have to say friends and mall shopping trips. Because friends, they’re my friends and they make me happy. And the reason why they’re my friends is that they make me happy. And the mall trip, it’s because I have a bit of a shopping addiction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I know. What is it that you love to buy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Mostly beauty products, like makeup and skincare and hair care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Have you been coaching me a little bit on all of that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have, I have, what product are you wearing right now on your lips?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t know. I think it’s called lippy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’re not serious, right? You know what product it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Tell me. How do you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I guided you to the exact place in store. Like told you, the directions like because I know that store by heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m in good hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Tell me about your friends a little more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>My friends, most of them are from school. We have like a huge friend group. But I’m especially friends with like, I have two like really close friends, and we’re kind of like a trio and we like do everything together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I love that for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>We’re like a bit too close of friends because we were not allowed to sit together anymore because we talked too much to each other. You didn’t hear that, well, no, it’s just a little thing, like if we’re working together on a group project, we get to sit together, but anything else, no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, so tell me about life outside of school. What are you, what’s your greatest accomplishment and what are you most proud of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Outside of school, I would say I’m most proud of dance, um, and that’s because I’m on my ninth year of dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What’s the gift that dance has given you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t know, maybe uh, the gift that dance has given me is confidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you remember what you said after the first time you did get up on stage? Do you remember your reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember exactly what I said, but my reaction was like, oh my god, that’s so, that’s easy, like that’s not scary at all, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> And you said, the words that you said were, “I was born to be on that stage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Actually, yeah. Oh my god, I don’t remember that at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel like being trans makes you different from other kids at school or at dance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I do not feel that way because none of my personal friends knows, I haven’t like opened up to them yet, so like, they just treat me like another girl at our school who just happens to be their friend, so then we just do all the normal stuff together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Do you think anything would change if you did share with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I’m really not sure. Because I have a bunch of friends at school, and I’m not sure, like, how they view, like, trans people or the LGBTQ+ community, so like ‘cause we don’t really talk about that stuff, um, so I’m not sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to know without bringing it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah. If one of your friends found out, or like, if you told one of your friends that you had a trans kid, would that affect the way they viewed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ve had some experience with that. I think I have told lots of friends. Their reaction has been overwhelmingly wonderful. And then it becomes a non-issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s what happens. I’m only friends with good people. Do you feel like anything about being trans has made you feel, has made your experience different, like has made you grow up faster, made you think about things more deeply?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Uh\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I do think so in some ways because you have to like, I had to like snap back into the real world sometimes to see what’s going on with like politics and stuff like that. And like sometimes there’s bad news about that. So I feel like I’ve had to mature faster than normal, to like, I guess, process that. And also you’ve told me to think to the future, like how would this transition like affect me in the future a bunch. So, yeah, I do think so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you try to stay educated about what’s happening in politics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How does it make you feel when you hear about something that is negative about LGBTQ people in the news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t really feel offended. Like, it’s kind of weird, because I’ve like started to view myself as just another girl, like a normal, like a normal person, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Just let it roll off you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mostly just laugh at it because it’s so ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s a good attitude\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Why are you looking at me like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I just love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Um, what do you most proud of about your mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am proud how you have completely accepted me and like adapted or like learned everything you can about me and people like me, and I think that’s just really sweet, and I’m also proud how you’ve also accepted that you are not walking out of this world without a full encyclopedia of skincare and makeup in your head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I knew this was going to go back to the mall. Yeah, I’ve started my journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’ve started your journey. You’ve started your retinol peptide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m trying to be open to that journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, you are. I dunno, I’m glad I’m on this journey with you, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Aww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Stop, no, don’t make a big deal about that. No, don’t get all mushy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, I’m very happy to be your partner in this journey as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sasha Khokha: Several of the conversations we’ve brought you in our\u003cem> Love You for You series\u003c/em> — like the one you just heard — have been between transgender kids and their moms. Now we’re going to hear from a dad — Roberto Santiago — talking with his two gender-expansive kids. Ryu is 15 and uses they/them pronouns, and Eloui, who’s 14 and uses neopronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Eloui, just for people who may not know, I don’t think everyone knows about neopronouns, so could you just talk a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Um, so, uh, neopronoun is any pronoun outside of he, him, she, her, they, them. Any pronoun other than that is a neopronoun. So my pronouns, xe/xyr, are spelled X-E-X-Y-R.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Ryu and Eloui talk with their dad about what they think their parents have done right on their gender journey and what they could do better. And also what it’s been like having a sibling who’s also gender-expansive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You guys have been like so supportive of each other. Ryu got your pronouns before I did, much more consistently, and what has it been like, I mean, who’s having a similar journey, you know, how, what has that done for you in terms of like your ability to explore your gender or whatever?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, Ryu, my entire life has been like the person I talk to, the person who gets me. Like, I don’t know, so if it was really good to have like the person who’s always understood me more than most other people, like understand this as well. That’s been really great, and it’s nice to have someone to rely on to talk about the issues of a genderqueer child in America, because like they don’t get all of it. We don’t experience gender dysphoria the same way, but like it is, it’s still nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I don’t even experience gender dysphoria at all, really, and thank goodness for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Lucky you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I cannot imagine. Um, Eloui was also, you know, huge in terms of my, my initial just coming out, right? Just like having that person essentially test the waters for me, right? And see how everyone in my community and everyone in my family was so wonderful and loving and accepting. And so like, I, you know, really just got my, got to do my transition almost entirely risk-free. Thanks to Eloui.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And I remember being very overjoyed when Ryu came out. I was like, someone who gets it, right here, who lives in my house, across the hallway, in my same room, whatever, it was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And so I’m curious from you guys, like what what about gender expression, like you’re for yourself, like what has that been like, and then what do you think the world should know? Like what’s misunderstood about gender expression?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> I really like to wear skirts and dresses, but I also hate to be perceived as female. So something that’s been hard for me, especially recently, is like I want to be pretty and girlie without being seen as female. I want, I’ve always said that if people are going to assume my gender as binary, male or female, I would rather them see me as male.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’ve always just worn the clothing that like feels most comfortable on my body. Which is 90% of the time just gonna be you know like, a T-shirt and some sweatpants. Uh, for me, the biggest part of gender expression in my life has always been my hair. I throughout my life have have gone through having very short and very long hair, and I currently have long hair. Um, and I, I like both because, and you know, I generally style it in a way that is perceived as androgynous because I like the way that that looks on me. And two, it’s literally just like convenient, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess I do a lot of things, mostly that are typically perceived as female. Um, I like to bake. I like cook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You also play rugby and hit people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eloui: I also play rugby and hit people, and I like to get dirty, and I like to play video games so like I’m, I feel like I am kind of pretty in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’ll be honest, I think that just makes both of you like typical kids for me, right? Like what I take from that, from what you all are saying is, that you know, there’s a gender binary, but also we know that there’s a gender, you know, spectrum, right? And some people lean hard into the binary, whether they’re cis or transgender, right. And, and some people, you know, who are transgender will make that completely binary flip, right. Whereas there’s also all these people out there who are living their lives somewhere in between, and their gender expression is coming somewhere in between. And I think that that’s really important for people like me who are still learning to not make assumptions, right? And to just, again, it goes back to like, I’m gonna wait for you to tell me who you are and not make assumptions about people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I’m curious. So what’s been your experience like with your classmates and your peers and maybe your teammates at rugby?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I mean, I was expecting, you know, honestly, more of a kind of positive response. Like I wasn’t really expecting like a whole party or anything, right? But I was expecting people to at least make an effort. I told everyone that I use they/them and they continue using he/him. And I would, you, I corrected them for about, you know, three or four months, which, always ‘sorry’ and then nothing would change. Uh, and I just, I kind of got tired of it and I just, you know, was, was a boy at rugby essentially for another couple of years before I quit. And I think that’s part of the reason why I quit was just like, nothing malicious was happening, but nobody was making an effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I went back to rugby in January, and I am playing on a girls’ team. And like, there has been some weirdness because I didn’t actually like, I told, I didn’t make a big announcement when I joined the team. I kinda told people one by one, starting with the people that I thought would be chill with it. And then I kinda accidentally told like all of the like low-key, kinda mean girls on the team that I was trans. And ever since then, you know, I could feel them like kinda giving me weird looks and being weird and like trying to be extra nice. And I get that a lot with like people trying to be nice. And I know a lot of the time it comes from a place of sincerity. And they’re not always trying to be mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>It just feels patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I am a person like you and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>So Eloui, at a certain point, a couple years ago, you had been playing rugby, and then you stopped for a couple of years, and you still sort of held on to being a rugby player as part of your identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>It’s a really important part of me, it’s something that I take a lot of pride in, it makes me feel tough, and I wannabe tough, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But then this year you went back, and I think one of the big differences that people probably don’t know about youth rugby or maybe youth sports in general is that when you play up until about middle school, the teams are co-ed, right? So you played on a co-ed team when you were little. Then you stopped. Did you stop because it was becoming gendered? What was it like going back to a gendered team?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>There were two big reasons I stopped, and the first one was I quit rugby the same day I found out Ryu quit rugby, because Ryu was such an important part of my rugby experience, I didn’t want to do rugby without them, but yeah, the other thing was definitely, I am so scared of having to play on a gendered team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And then you did for a season?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And honestly, most of it was actually a really good experience for me. All the girls that I immediately made friends with were like super sweet about it and so understanding. And like my favorite coach got it immediately and the other kids, it took a minute, but they’re getting there. Um there’s a part of me that is femme and is a girl and helped me connect to that in a way that’s not associated with femininity because it’s a tough, tackle you into the mud sport. So it was a really like almost healing experience for all the parts of me. It was also hard because people would say, OK, for the photo, everyone say, ‘girls rugby.’ Or like, ‘OK, girls’ like to go to do this, and I tried to correct them every time, but like they didn’t always listen to me. And that was a struggle because like, you have to find the middle ground between sticking up for yourself and just accepting that like, I signed up to be on a girl’s team and I’m just gonna have to let it go sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But also, we could provide maybe a list of like group pronouns that are not gendered, right? Hey y’all, hey folks, hey team, hey players, hey, you know, that can help counteract that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But I am curious, like, you know, me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could, right? And we’re pretty open-minded. There have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong? What would you tell parents or kids or whatever in the world about your experience being parented?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, less so these days, but like when I was younger, one thing that you, and especially mom, would do a lot of the time, is you kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? And I really appreciate it, and I really did appreciate it. But like someone would misgender me, and I would start to correct them. And like one of you, mom or you, would often, I don’t even think without realizing it, just kind of jump in and correct them for me. And I appreciate that a lot. And I know it’s like parent protectiveness, but one thing I would say is let the kid figure it out for themself. And if they don’t say anything, to make sure that the kid knows that you’re supporting them, correct the person. But like give, I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and I think something that I started to do with both of you is going into a situation or like if we had like a little moment as an aside, being able to just ask you, like, do, do you wanna say anything? Do you want me to say anything, or do you just wanna let it go? And letting you guys lead from that perspective. Once I learned how to do that, I think that was helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that was a big upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>But the main thing that you got right, and the most important thing, is to just say yes to your kid and listen to what they’re asking of you, right? Like, at the end of the day, if they want to change their name or change their pronouns, the very least you can do is just respect that because it costs nothing to be kind to them and to validate them. And the alternative can be some really scary stuff that your kid has to go through, right? They can feel unloved, they can feel like nobody wants them, right, because if your parents, the people that society and your instincts and everything tells you should be the people that love and care for you the most. And you have this huge facet of your being that you feel and they just won’t accept that. And in some cases, they won’t even accept any of you just because of that part of you. Um, that can feel awful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I’m wondering, like, do you have any misgivings? Do you feel like there’s anything that like you could have really done better, because I know for me personally, I feel like my trans experience in relation to you two at least has has been wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think some of my missteps came even before either of you came out. So like Ryu, I think about that time, you know, you wanted to wear your hair in a ponytail and a scrunchie to day care. And I was like, “That’s fine. You can do that, but you have to understand some kids aren’t going to get it and they might tease you.” And you, the look on your face, when I said that, like, I thought I was trying to be supportive, right? Because I wasn’t saying don’t do it. I was just wanting to prepare you for the fact that other people might not be as accepting. And even that kind of crushed you a little bit. And I felt so bad, because I was getting out of the car to go to school, and I was like, I didn’t have a chance to fix it. I learned so much from that. I think a lot of the things that I regret or that I feel bad about are things that you, you all never saw. You know, like conversations I may have had early on with people that you weren’t privy to, but that’s where I was probably expressing my, my doubts and my misgivings and my fears and, you know, just how new it was. And I think that that’s something that it’s important for parents to know, and I think I’ve said this, but it’s OK to not be there yet. Right? Like, don’t show your kid that. Right. But if you internally feel like, “Oh, no, like, I don’t know about this, like I dunno how I feel about this,” as long as you’re kind of working through that yourself and not putting that on your kid, I work through it. Right. And the goal I hope is to get to a place of acceptance, but, you know, don’t totally beat yourself up either if you’re like, ‘I’m freaking out.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I think what you did right is like all the things. Everything\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Right on. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so, you know, you’ve been living this life for a little while, and there’s a lot going on in the world right now. What are you hopeful for for the future for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, “Hey, I’m trans.” And everyone’s like, “OK, cool.” And trans people can get access to their gender-affirming care the same way cis people can get access to their gender-affirming care. I would just like to see trans people become more integrated, accepted, normalized members of society instead of sort of being ostracized and feeling othered and having to create our own safe spaces. I think the world should just be a safe space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Right. You want to be mundane. You don’t want to be a topic of conversation anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Like I want to be a person. I wanna be all kinds of things, and also trans. I don’t wanna be trans and all kinds of things because I feel like how a lot of people see me. I’m just me, I’m like you. You know, I’m not an exhibit, I am not an alien. I’m, I’m just a person. I want to be seen as that. Like, “Oh, I’m Eloui and I like purple. Oh, I am Eloui, also I’m trans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>This has been really great, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the next bit of time brings us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Thanks for supporting us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’m glad that there are spaces for like stories like this to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Love you, bud.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui\u003c/strong>: Love you, Dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Roberto Santiago and his two kids, 14-year-old Eloui and 15-year-old Ryu, as part of our series \u003cem>Love You For You, \u003c/em>where transgender kids talk about what it means to thrive with support from the adults in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho with help from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\"> Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a> for all his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. You can find all the interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You \u003c/em>series on our podcast. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week on the show, we’ll meet some transgender elders who’ve got some words of wisdom for a younger generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Quetzali: \u003c/strong>Do you have any advice for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donna Persona: \u003c/strong>I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim, identify as a warrior, a fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine. Your state, your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"headTitle": "How Californians Are Reclaiming Día De Los Muertos as an Act of Cultural Resistance | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was reported for K Onda KQED, a monthly newsletter focused on the Bay Area’s Latinx community. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/k-onda\">Click here to subscribe\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I had planned to spend Nov. 1, a Saturday, cleaning and organizing my house. Then my friend Susie Sanchez-Young, owner of The Designing Chica, texted me to suggest I come to a Día de los Muertos event in Lafayette, a mere 15 minutes from my home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That afternoon, my kids and I drove up a windy hill to find parking in Oakmont Cemetery, which sits on a serene and picturesque hill offering amazing views of the north Interstate 680 corridor. We were there not to visit a particular departed loved one, but all of them — the dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The event featured some elements I’ve come to expect from a Mexican-themed lineup: performances by a mariachi, a folkloric dance company and traditional Aztec dancers.\u003cbr>\nIt was lively without feeling overly cheery, which I appreciated because it provided a sense of community among everyone who wanted to soak in culture, tradition and sacred rituals of mourning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I did not grow up observing Día de los Muertos as anything more than the Mexican version of All Saints Day, a holy day of obligation for Catholics. I don’t build an elaborate altar. But this year, I found myself leaning into Día de los Muertos as an act of honoring loved ones as well as resisting assimilation, embracing artistic expression and reclaiming my Indigenous heritage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The practice of honoring the deceased stretches back thousands of years to the Indigenous peoples of Mexico. Yet the rituals and iconography associated with this observation have modern roots in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco artist and curator \u003ca href=\"https://rioyanez.com/\">Rio Yañez\u003c/a> grew up immersed in Día de los Muertos. His father, the late Rene Yañez, co-founded the altar exhibits and procession in San Francisco’s Mission District in the 1970s and ‘80s that are credited with starting the Día de los Muertos celebrations on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063630\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063630\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yobani Nava Chavez made an altar for her son, Eduardo Yobani Nava Chavez, a former teacher, at the Oakland Día de los Muertos Festival in Fruitvale in 2023. The altar is decorated with masks that his former students made by hand. \u003ccite>(Estefany Gonzalez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The holiday became a touchstone for the Chicano movement as a way to assert cultural identity and resistance. Still, Rio Yañez said his father, who was born in Mexico, was called out for not being Chicano enough and for reimagining traditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up with my dad being constantly reminded that he was failing a purity test for Day of the Dead,” he said during \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101911846/how-dia-de-los-muertos-continues-to-evolve\">a show I produced for KQED’s Forum\u003c/a>. “As a Chicano, as a Mexican American, adaptation, reinvention, reinterpretation — that is always what (Día de los Muertos) has been about.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yañez co-curated an exhibit at SOMArts called Día de Los Muertos 2025: We Love You that featured female and nonbinary artists presenting different interpretations of an altar. He noted that altars for public view often include political statements, call attention to issues and challenge the status quo.[aside postID=news_12059504 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/20250930_HISPANICSERVINGINSTITUTIONS_GC-7-KQED.jpg']I’m now used to seeing jack-o’-lanterns next to Catrinas in many American homes, signaling the holiday’s place in mainstream America. The irony is that while many non-Latinos now embrace Día de los Muertos, they often focus more on the aesthetics and festive aspects instead of seeing it as a channel for grief, remembrance and connection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can stop Mattel from making Catrina Barbies,” Yañez told me. “Where we can make a difference and have some control is in what we can do as a community and for each other and how we engage with each other.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Día de los Muertos has turned into a cultural phenomenon because it’s a rare opportunity to talk about the dead outside of a funeral context, said Luisa Navarro, a Texas native who runs a blog and gift shop in Brooklyn called \u003ca href=\"https://mexicoinmypocket.com/\">Mexico in My Pocket\u003c/a> and recently released a book titled Mexico’s Day of the Dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are a very inviting culture. We have room at the table for everyone, but it’s important to educate yourself and understand the holiday,” she told me. “I try to avoid shaming people and policing people who don’t understand. Instead, I tell stories and educate people about the meaning and origin.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The essence of the holiday remains remembering deceased loved ones, but observing this practice has also served as an act of resistance and resilience since the time Spanish colonizers failed to stamp it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m on this mission to share our stories, to spread awareness because there’s so many misconceptions and stereotypes about our culture,” Navarro said. “It is so, so, so beautiful how the Chicano movement and how our community has continued to amplify our stories, to keep our traditions alive and to keep our duality alive. And I’m so so proud of that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063326\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063326\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A demonstrator holds a sign reading “Santuario: Manteniendo Familias Unidas” (“Sanctuary: Keeping Families United”) during the Faith in Action “Walking Our Faith” vigil outside the San Francisco Immigration Court on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This year has been a psychologically difficult year for immigrant communities that are under attack by the Trump administration, which has used brutal tactics to detain immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I reflected on this, I thought of how Belinda Hernandez-Arriaga, founder and CEO of Ayudando Latinos A Soñar, a nonprofit that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12021877/california-nonprofit-empowers-half-moon-bay-farmworkers-healing-resources\">serves the immigrant community\u003c/a> in Half Moon Bay, uses culture as a cure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s been especially important during the last couple of years of COVID, where there was a lot of loss. And with our recent, two years ago, the mass shooting of our seven farm workers, the Día de los Muertos and the altar gave us a place to come together as a community to grieve and to remember and to not forget,” she said during the Forum show. “It’s a portal for mental health. It’s also a portal for well-being and resistance and community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back at Oakmont Cemetery, I stood in a long line with my 6-year-old daughter, who waited patiently for close to an hour to have her face painted in the Catrina style.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We watched the Aztec dancers light copal, a tree resin that has been used for rituals for thousands of years, and perform a ceremonial dance. I explained that the Indigenous people have populated Mexico for centuries and started the very practice we took part in that day. I then explained that after the Spanish arrived, the cultures mixed, and continue evolving into the version we have today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later that evening, we lit a candle in front of a display of photographs of deceased loved ones and talked about who they were. Among the collection are \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2021/12/15/how-vicente-fernandez-earned-appreciation-for-rancheros-like-my-dad/\">photos of my dad\u003c/a>, the only grandparent my children have not met because he passed away before they were born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They asked me about his favorite foods and what he was like. It was a simple observation of Día de los Muertos, and one small way to keep his memory alive for the next generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was reported for K Onda KQED, a monthly newsletter focused on the Bay Area’s Latinx community. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/k-onda\">Click here to subscribe\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I had planned to spend Nov. 1, a Saturday, cleaning and organizing my house. Then my friend Susie Sanchez-Young, owner of The Designing Chica, texted me to suggest I come to a Día de los Muertos event in Lafayette, a mere 15 minutes from my home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That afternoon, my kids and I drove up a windy hill to find parking in Oakmont Cemetery, which sits on a serene and picturesque hill offering amazing views of the north Interstate 680 corridor. We were there not to visit a particular departed loved one, but all of them — the dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The event featured some elements I’ve come to expect from a Mexican-themed lineup: performances by a mariachi, a folkloric dance company and traditional Aztec dancers.\u003cbr>\nIt was lively without feeling overly cheery, which I appreciated because it provided a sense of community among everyone who wanted to soak in culture, tradition and sacred rituals of mourning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I did not grow up observing Día de los Muertos as anything more than the Mexican version of All Saints Day, a holy day of obligation for Catholics. I don’t build an elaborate altar. But this year, I found myself leaning into Día de los Muertos as an act of honoring loved ones as well as resisting assimilation, embracing artistic expression and reclaiming my Indigenous heritage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The practice of honoring the deceased stretches back thousands of years to the Indigenous peoples of Mexico. Yet the rituals and iconography associated with this observation have modern roots in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco artist and curator \u003ca href=\"https://rioyanez.com/\">Rio Yañez\u003c/a> grew up immersed in Día de los Muertos. His father, the late Rene Yañez, co-founded the altar exhibits and procession in San Francisco’s Mission District in the 1970s and ‘80s that are credited with starting the Día de los Muertos celebrations on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063630\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063630\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/231029_OAKDiadelosMuertosFestival_EG-2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yobani Nava Chavez made an altar for her son, Eduardo Yobani Nava Chavez, a former teacher, at the Oakland Día de los Muertos Festival in Fruitvale in 2023. The altar is decorated with masks that his former students made by hand. \u003ccite>(Estefany Gonzalez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The holiday became a touchstone for the Chicano movement as a way to assert cultural identity and resistance. Still, Rio Yañez said his father, who was born in Mexico, was called out for not being Chicano enough and for reimagining traditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up with my dad being constantly reminded that he was failing a purity test for Day of the Dead,” he said during \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101911846/how-dia-de-los-muertos-continues-to-evolve\">a show I produced for KQED’s Forum\u003c/a>. “As a Chicano, as a Mexican American, adaptation, reinvention, reinterpretation — that is always what (Día de los Muertos) has been about.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yañez co-curated an exhibit at SOMArts called Día de Los Muertos 2025: We Love You that featured female and nonbinary artists presenting different interpretations of an altar. He noted that altars for public view often include political statements, call attention to issues and challenge the status quo.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>I’m now used to seeing jack-o’-lanterns next to Catrinas in many American homes, signaling the holiday’s place in mainstream America. The irony is that while many non-Latinos now embrace Día de los Muertos, they often focus more on the aesthetics and festive aspects instead of seeing it as a channel for grief, remembrance and connection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can stop Mattel from making Catrina Barbies,” Yañez told me. “Where we can make a difference and have some control is in what we can do as a community and for each other and how we engage with each other.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Día de los Muertos has turned into a cultural phenomenon because it’s a rare opportunity to talk about the dead outside of a funeral context, said Luisa Navarro, a Texas native who runs a blog and gift shop in Brooklyn called \u003ca href=\"https://mexicoinmypocket.com/\">Mexico in My Pocket\u003c/a> and recently released a book titled Mexico’s Day of the Dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are a very inviting culture. We have room at the table for everyone, but it’s important to educate yourself and understand the holiday,” she told me. “I try to avoid shaming people and policing people who don’t understand. Instead, I tell stories and educate people about the meaning and origin.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The essence of the holiday remains remembering deceased loved ones, but observing this practice has also served as an act of resistance and resilience since the time Spanish colonizers failed to stamp it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m on this mission to share our stories, to spread awareness because there’s so many misconceptions and stereotypes about our culture,” Navarro said. “It is so, so, so beautiful how the Chicano movement and how our community has continued to amplify our stories, to keep our traditions alive and to keep our duality alive. And I’m so so proud of that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063326\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063326\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_ICE-VIGIL_GH-15-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A demonstrator holds a sign reading “Santuario: Manteniendo Familias Unidas” (“Sanctuary: Keeping Families United”) during the Faith in Action “Walking Our Faith” vigil outside the San Francisco Immigration Court on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This year has been a psychologically difficult year for immigrant communities that are under attack by the Trump administration, which has used brutal tactics to detain immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I reflected on this, I thought of how Belinda Hernandez-Arriaga, founder and CEO of Ayudando Latinos A Soñar, a nonprofit that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12021877/california-nonprofit-empowers-half-moon-bay-farmworkers-healing-resources\">serves the immigrant community\u003c/a> in Half Moon Bay, uses culture as a cure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s been especially important during the last couple of years of COVID, where there was a lot of loss. And with our recent, two years ago, the mass shooting of our seven farm workers, the Día de los Muertos and the altar gave us a place to come together as a community to grieve and to remember and to not forget,” she said during the Forum show. “It’s a portal for mental health. It’s also a portal for well-being and resistance and community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back at Oakmont Cemetery, I stood in a long line with my 6-year-old daughter, who waited patiently for close to an hour to have her face painted in the Catrina style.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We watched the Aztec dancers light copal, a tree resin that has been used for rituals for thousands of years, and perform a ceremonial dance. I explained that the Indigenous people have populated Mexico for centuries and started the very practice we took part in that day. I then explained that after the Spanish arrived, the cultures mixed, and continue evolving into the version we have today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later that evening, we lit a candle in front of a display of photographs of deceased loved ones and talked about who they were. Among the collection are \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2021/12/15/how-vicente-fernandez-earned-appreciation-for-rancheros-like-my-dad/\">photos of my dad\u003c/a>, the only grandparent my children have not met because he passed away before they were born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They asked me about his favorite foods and what he was like. It was a simple observation of Día de los Muertos, and one small way to keep his memory alive for the next generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Marble Statue” is swirling and melancholic, a cocoon embracing listeners with a gentle reminder to let go of perfection. It starts off with a dreamy trumpet line (video game fans might be able to hear a layered trumpet sample from Disco Elysium) that intentionally echoes Pasion’s vulnerable lyrics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When we thought of the melody and the chords, the trumpet part came to try to symbolize that longing, spiraling feeling,” said guitarist and co-vocalist Brenden Phung. “Blending that was a way to bring our sound forward while also continuing to experiment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another new direction the band took was recording in a professional studio for the first time. Armed with demos they first ideated in their practice space, the group recorded at Tiny Telephone in Oakland to bring their material to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[With] ‘Marble Statue,’ having all of us play in the same room really helped us practice for that studio session,” said guitarist and bassist Cliff Yang. “We were so laser focused on all the different tiny sections in songs where things have to be locked in.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Working with the producers at Tiny Telephone also helped achieve a sense of cohesion for \u003cem>The Art of Erosion\u003c/em> as a whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Tiny Telephone] really helped tie these 11 separate songs into, I think, a really solid album that is trying to take the listener on a journey of what it’s like when you feel a relationship slowly starting to wear away and all its nuances and different situations,” said Phung. “I hope that for anyone checking out \u003cem>The Art of Erosion\u003c/em>, they can really feel this sense of universalness about these tough situations.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Indigo Elephant’s new album \u003cem>The Art of Erosion\u003c/em> is out now. The band is performing at \u003ca href=\"https://dice.fm/event/92gmk7-saturday-matinee-show-featuring-indigo-elephant-kiroshi-downbydawn-granny-nix-15th-nov-the-knockout-san-francisco-tickets?pid=YUCBDJYJ&_branch_match_id=1482798793074668333&utm_medium=partners_api&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA8soKSkottLXz8nMy9ZLyUxO1UvL1U9PMrFIMrcwNUxJSrIvyEyxjQx1dnLxivRSqytKTUstKsrMS49PKsovL04tsnXOKMrPTQUAxxeRAUgAAAA%3D\">The Knockout\u003c/a> in San Francisco on Nov. 15.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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},
"radiolab": {
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"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
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