‘Love You for You:’ What Parents Can Learn About Love and Support from their Trans Kids

View the full episode transcript.

Our Love You for You series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.

This week, we’ll explore how parents stretch, adapt and grow alongside their children, learning in real time what it means to support their trans and gender-expansive kids.

We’ll hear a conversation between a 12-year-old transgender girl and her mom, which ranges from the joys of dancing and shopping to confronting the current anti-trans climate. We’ll also meet two gender-expansive siblings, who talk to their dad about what it’s been like to support one another, and reflect on how well their parents navigated their identities.

Guests:

• A 12-year-old transgender girl (she/her) and her mom
• Roberto Santiago, a father and his gender expansive kids, Eloui, 14 (xe/xyr) and Ryu, 15 (they/them)

Episode Transcript

Music fades in

Sasha Khokha: I’m Sasha Khokha, and it’s The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California, talking to people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.

Montage of voices

Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? 

What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? 

Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. 

Thanks for letting me be who I am. 

And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. 

 Music fades out

We’re calling the series Love You for You, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their parents about the parents’ journey to fully understand and support their child’s gender identity.

Roberto Santiago: Me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could but there have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong?

Eloui: You kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.

Sasha Khokha: We’ll hear from this dad and his kids later in the show, but we’re going to start this episode with a 12-year-old girl in conversation with her mom. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, are not using their names because of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.

Kid: So me first? OK. So I am in seventh grade. I live in the Bay Area. My pronouns are she, her. And this is my mom!

Mom: All right. And I’m her mom. My pronouns are also she, her. And I also live in the Bay Area, because we live together.

Kid: What grade are you in?

Mom: Oh, I’m, I graduated from um a really big grade, and now I’m not in school anymore.

Kid: A really big grade. OK. So yeah, I’m 12 right now, almost 13. And when I started, like, really transitioning from a boy to a girl, I was like, how old was I? I was like six, right?

Mom: Well, I mean, we can talk about going back to when you were three years old.

Kid: Yeah, I was just about to say that.

Mom: And we were …

Kid: No, wait, I want to talk about this.

Mom: OK, tell me.

Kid: So, when I was 3 years old, I had like developed a obsession with wearing dresses and sometimes I wore dresses to preschool and it was like so fun because I was so fancy. Also, I like danced around in dresses with my brother a bunch like just like go crazy.

Mom: But of course, we didn’t have dresses for you. That wasn’t part of your wardrobe.

Kid: For me, yeah. Yeah, that wasn’t a part of my wardrobe.

Mom: So it was towels or it was…

Kid: Or it was yeah, or was your old dresses.

Mom: My old dresses.

Kid: And I was like so fancy, and I pranced around the house.

Mom: And we were trying in vain to get you to get in a beautiful Christmas suit to go to a Christmas party.

Kid: And I was like, “No! I, I don’t want to be handsome. I want to be beautiful.”

Mom: Hmm-mm. Yeah, there was no coming out. It was always just was.

Kid: Always like that.

Kid: I was never one of those, like manly boys, masculine boys. When I was, like, tiny, I would kind of describe myself as that one little gay boy with, like, my pink ruffles.

Mom: How do you, how did you decide, or how is it clear to you that you’re not the little gay boy, but you’re a girl?

Kid: I think one day there’s like this bus with the mad ladies on it, just like models like looking, like glaring at the screen like they always do, and I was like ‘Oh, that looks fun, I want to do that,’ and also I’ve always had an obsession with dresses and never suits or anything like that. So I think it just like gradually happened. It was like meant to be. ‘Cause I started feeling like that at a really young age. I followed my gut.

Mom: Mm-hmm.

Kid: I was never ever doubtful that I wanted to be a girl. I never had doubt in that. I was always sure that this is what I was going to be when I grew up.

Mom: I think we spent a lot of time kind of considering that and, and making sure it’s the right path and talking you and me and talking to therapists.

Kid: Yeah.

Mom: And how are you doing now?

Kid: I am doing good. I’m doing pretty fine. I am kind of like antsy to get on, like to finally start estrogen because we put in the puberty blocker implant a while ago. I’m feeling pretty content.

Mom: Good.

Kid: Um, how has your view changed on the LGBTQ+ community because I’m your kid?

Mom: OK. Good question.

Kid: Yes.

Mom: I think I’ve learned a lot. I guess what I didn’t know was the breadth of people’s experience and how much range there is in what someone feels in terms of their own gender but also their sexuality, and how there are lots of different combinations and ways that that’s expressed, and it’s all cool and it…you can be happy anywhere on that spectrum, you know?

I definitely didn’t know how a transition is managed and how you know there’s a whole field of doctors and therapists and people who are there to care for us and make sure that it’s safe and healthy and that we’re happy. I’m like really happy to know that community now.

Kid: Yeah, I mean, I’ve like caught you reading a few books about this, And that’s nice.

Music fades in

Mom: What makes you happy?

Kid: I would have to say friends and mall shopping trips. Because friends, they’re my friends and they make me happy. And the reason why they’re my friends is that they make me happy. And the mall trip, it’s because I have a bit of a shopping addiction.

Mom: I know. What is it that you love to buy?

Kid: Mostly beauty products, like makeup and skincare and hair care.

Mom: Have you been coaching me a little bit on all of that?

Kid: Yeah, I have, I have, what product are you wearing right now on your lips?

Mom: I mean, I don’t know. I think it’s called lippy.

Kid: You’re not serious, right? You know what product it is, right?

Mom: Tell me. How do you know?

Kid: Yeah, I guided you to the exact place in store. Like told you, the directions like because I know that store by heart.

Mom: I’m in good hands.

Music fades in

Mom: OK. Tell me about your friends a little more.

Kid: My friends, most of them are from school. We have like a huge friend group. But I’m especially friends with like, I have two like really close friends, and we’re kind of like a trio and we like do everything together.

Mom: I love that for you.

Kid: We’re like a bit too close of friends because we were not allowed to sit together anymore because we talked too much to each other. You didn’t hear that, well, no, it’s just a little thing, like if we’re working together on a group project, we get to sit together, but anything else, no.

Mom: OK, so tell me about life outside of school. What are you, what’s your greatest accomplishment and what are you most proud of?

Kid: Outside of school, I would say I’m most proud of dance, um, and that’s because I’m on my ninth year of dance.

Mom: What’s the gift that dance has given you?

Kid: I don’t know, maybe uh, the gift that dance has given me is confidence.

Mom: Do you remember what you said after the first time you did get up on stage? Do you remember your reaction?

Kid: I don’t remember exactly what I said, but my reaction was like, oh my god, that’s so, that’s easy, like that’s not scary at all, right?

Mom: And you said, the words that you said were, “I was born to be on that stage.”

Kid: Actually, yeah. Oh my god, I don’t remember that at all.

Music fades in

Mom: Do you feel like being trans makes you different from other kids at school or at dance?

Kid: I do not feel that way because none of my personal friends knows, I haven’t like opened up to them yet, so like, they just treat me like another girl at our school who just happens to be their friend, so then we just do all the normal stuff together

Mom: Do you think anything would change if you did share with them?

Kid: I’m really not sure. Because I have a bunch of friends at school, and I’m not sure, like, how they view, like, trans people or the LGBTQ+ community, so like ‘cause we don’t really talk about that stuff, um, so I’m not sure.

Mom: It’s hard to know without bringing it up.

Kid: Yeah. If one of your friends found out, or like, if you told one of your friends that you had a trans kid, would that affect the way they viewed you?

Mom: Well, I’ve had some experience with that. I think I have told lots of friends. Their reaction has been overwhelmingly wonderful. And then it becomes a non-issue.

Kid: Yeah.

Mom: That’s what happens. I’m only friends with good people. Do you feel like anything about being trans has made you feel, has made your experience different, like has made you grow up faster, made you think about things more deeply?

Kid: Uh, I do think so in some ways because you have to like, I had to like snap back into the real world sometimes to see what’s going on with like politics and stuff like that. And like sometimes there’s bad news about that. So I feel like I’ve had to mature faster than normal, to like, I guess, process that. And also you’ve told me to think to the future, like how would this transition like affect me in the future a bunch. So, yeah, I do think so.

Mom: Yeah.

Kid: Yeah.

Mom: Do you try to stay educated about what’s happening in politics?

Kid: Yes, definitely.

Mom: How does it make you feel when you hear about something that is negative about LGBTQ people in the news?

Kid: I mean, I don’t really feel offended. Like, it’s kind of weird, because I’ve like started to view myself as just another girl, like a normal, like a normal person, I guess.

Mom: Just let it roll off you?

Kid: Yeah, I mostly just laugh at it because it’s so ridiculous.

Mom: That’s a good attitude

Kid: Why are you looking at me like that?

Mom: I just love you.

Kid: OK.

Mom: OK.

Music fades in

Mom: Um, what do you most proud of about your mom?

Kid: I am proud how you have completely accepted me and like adapted or like learned everything you can about me and people like me, and I think that’s just really sweet, and I’m also proud how you’ve also accepted that you are not walking out of this world without a full encyclopedia of skincare and makeup in your head.

Mom: I knew this was going to go back to the mall. Yeah, I’ve started my journey.

Kid: You’ve started your journey. You’ve started your retinol peptide.

Mom: I’m trying to be open to that journey.

Kid: Yes, you are. I dunno, I’m glad I’m on this journey with you, I guess.

Mom: Aww.

Kid: Stop, no, don’t make a big deal about that. No, don’t get all mushy.

Mom: OK, I’m very happy to be your partner in this journey as well.

Kid: Yay.

Music fades in

Sasha Khokha: Several of the conversations we’ve brought you in our Love You for You series — like the one you just heard — have been between transgender kids and their moms. Now we’re going to hear from a dad — Roberto Santiago — talking with his two gender-expansive kids. Ryu is 15 and uses they/them pronouns, and Eloui, who’s 14 and uses neopronouns.

Roberto Santiago: Eloui, just for people who may not know, I don’t think everyone knows about neopronouns, so could you just talk a little bit about that?

Eloui: Um, so, uh, neopronoun is any pronoun outside of he, him, she, her, they, them. Any pronoun other than that is a neopronoun. So my pronouns, xe/xyr, are spelled X-E-X-Y-R.

Sasha Khokha: Ryu and Eloui talk with their dad about what they think their parents have done right on their gender journey and what they could do better. And also what it’s been like having a sibling who’s also gender-expansive.

Roberto Santiago: You guys have been like so supportive of each other. Ryu got your pronouns before I did, much more consistently, and what has it been like, I mean, who’s having a similar journey, you know, how, what has that done for you in terms of like your ability to explore your gender or whatever?

Eloui: Well, Ryu, my entire life has been like the person I talk to, the person who gets me. Like, I don’t know, so if it was really good to have like the person who’s always understood me more than most other people, like understand this as well. That’s been really great, and it’s nice to have someone to rely on to talk about the issues of a genderqueer child in America, because like they don’t get all of it. We don’t experience gender dysphoria the same way, but like it is, it’s still nice.

Ryu: I don’t even experience gender dysphoria at all, really, and thank goodness for that.

Eloui: Lucky you.

Ryu: I cannot imagine. Um, Eloui was also, you know, huge in terms of my, my initial just coming out, right? Just like having that person essentially test the waters for me, right? And see how everyone in my community and everyone in my family was so wonderful and loving and accepting. And so like, I, you know, really just got my, got to do my transition almost entirely risk-free. Thanks to Eloui.

Eloui: And I remember being very overjoyed when Ryu came out. I was like, someone who gets it, right here, who lives in my house, across the hallway, in my same room, whatever, it was great.

Music fades in

Roberto Santiago: And so I’m curious from you guys, like what what about gender expression, like you’re for yourself, like what has that been like, and then what do you think the world should know? Like what’s misunderstood about gender expression?

Eloui: I really like to wear skirts and dresses, but I also hate to be perceived as female. So something that’s been hard for me, especially recently, is like I want to be pretty and girlie without being seen as female. I want, I’ve always said that if people are going to assume my gender as binary, male or female, I would rather them see me as male.

Ryu: I’ve always just worn the clothing that like feels most comfortable on my body. Which is 90% of the time just gonna be you know like, a T-shirt and some sweatpants. Uh, for me, the biggest part of gender expression in my life has always been my hair. I throughout my life have have gone through having very short and very long hair, and I currently have long hair. Um, and I, I like both because, and you know, I generally style it in a way that is perceived as androgynous because I like the way that that looks on me. And two, it’s literally just like convenient, right?

Eloui: Yeah, I guess I do a lot of things, mostly that are typically perceived as female. Um, I like to bake. I like cook.

Roberto Santiago: You also play rugby and hit people.

Eloui: I also play rugby and hit people, and I like to get dirty, and I like to play video games so like I’m, I feel like I am kind of pretty in the middle.

Roberto Santiago: I mean, I’ll be honest, I think that just makes both of you like typical kids for me, right? Like what I take from that, from what you all are saying is, that you know, there’s a gender binary, but also we know that there’s a gender, you know, spectrum, right? And some people lean hard into the binary, whether they’re cis or transgender, right. And, and some people, you know, who are transgender will make that completely binary flip, right. Whereas there’s also all these people out there who are living their lives somewhere in between, and their gender expression is coming somewhere in between. And I think that that’s really important for people like me who are still learning to not make assumptions, right? And to just, again, it goes back to like, I’m gonna wait for you to tell me who you are and not make assumptions about people.

Music fades in

Roberto Santiago: I’m curious. So what’s been your experience like with your classmates and your peers and maybe your teammates at rugby?

Ryu: I mean, I was expecting, you know, honestly, more of a kind of positive response. Like I wasn’t really expecting like a whole party or anything, right? But I was expecting people to at least make an effort. I told everyone that I use they/them and they continue using he/him. And I would, you, I corrected them for about, you know, three or four months, which, always ‘sorry’ and then nothing would change. Uh, and I just, I kind of got tired of it and I just, you know, was, was a boy at rugby essentially for another couple of years before I quit. And I think that’s part of the reason why I quit was just like, nothing malicious was happening, but nobody was making an effort.

Eloui: I went back to rugby in January, and I am playing on a girls’ team. And like, there has been some weirdness because I didn’t actually like, I told, I didn’t make a big announcement when I joined the team. I kinda told people one by one, starting with the people that I thought would be chill with it. And then I kinda accidentally told like all of the like low-key, kinda mean girls on the team that I was trans. And ever since then, you know, I could feel them like kinda giving me weird looks and being weird and like trying to be extra nice. And I get that a lot with like people trying to be nice. And I know a lot of the time it comes from a place of sincerity. And they’re not always trying to be mean?

Ryu: It just feels patronizing.

Eloui: Yeah, I am a person like you and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.

Roberto Santiago: So Eloui, at a certain point, a couple years ago, you had been playing rugby, and then you stopped for a couple of years, and you still sort of held on to being a rugby player as part of your identity.

Eloui: It’s a really important part of me, it’s something that I take a lot of pride in, it makes me feel tough, and I wannabe tough, you know?

Roberto Santiago: But then this year you went back, and I think one of the big differences that people probably don’t know about youth rugby or maybe youth sports in general is that when you play up until about middle school, the teams are co-ed, right? So you played on a co-ed team when you were little. Then you stopped. Did you stop because it was becoming gendered? What was it like going back to a gendered team?

Eloui: There were two big reasons I stopped, and the first one was I quit rugby the same day I found out Ryu quit rugby, because Ryu was such an important part of my rugby experience, I didn’t want to do rugby without them, but yeah, the other thing was definitely, I am so scared of having to play on a gendered team.

Roberto Santiago: And then you did for a season?

Eloui: And honestly, most of it was actually a really good experience for me. All the girls that I immediately made friends with were like super sweet about it and so understanding. And like my favorite coach got it immediately and the other kids, it took a minute, but they’re getting there. Um there’s a part of me that is femme and is a girl and helped me connect to that in a way that’s not associated with femininity because it’s a tough, tackle you into the mud sport. So it was a really like almost healing experience for all the parts of me. It was also hard because people would say, OK, for the photo, everyone say, ‘girls rugby.’ Or like, ‘OK, girls’ like to go to do this, and I tried to correct them every time, but like they didn’t always listen to me. And that was a struggle because like, you have to find the middle ground between sticking up for yourself and just accepting that like, I signed up to be on a girl’s team and I’m just gonna have to let it go sometimes.

Roberto Santiago: But also, we could provide maybe a list of like group pronouns that are not gendered, right? Hey y’all, hey folks, hey team, hey players, hey, you know, that can help counteract that.

Music fades in

Roberto Santiago: But I am curious, like, you know, me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could, right? And we’re pretty open-minded. There have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong? What would you tell parents or kids or whatever in the world about your experience being parented?

Eloui: Well, less so these days, but like when I was younger, one thing that you, and especially mom, would do a lot of the time, is you kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? And I really appreciate it, and I really did appreciate it. But like someone would misgender me, and I would start to correct them. And like one of you, mom or you, would often, I don’t even think without realizing it, just kind of jump in and correct them for me. And I appreciate that a lot. And I know it’s like parent protectiveness, but one thing I would say is let the kid figure it out for themself. And if they don’t say anything, to make sure that the kid knows that you’re supporting them, correct the person. But like give, I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.

Roberto Santiago: Yeah, and I think something that I started to do with both of you is going into a situation or like if we had like a little moment as an aside, being able to just ask you, like, do, do you wanna say anything? Do you want me to say anything, or do you just wanna let it go? And letting you guys lead from that perspective. Once I learned how to do that, I think that was helpful.

Eloui: Yeah, that was a big upgrade.

Ryu: But the main thing that you got right, and the most important thing, is to just say yes to your kid and listen to what they’re asking of you, right? Like, at the end of the day, if they want to change their name or change their pronouns, the very least you can do is just respect that because it costs nothing to be kind to them and to validate them. And the alternative can be some really scary stuff that your kid has to go through, right? They can feel unloved, they can feel like nobody wants them, right, because if your parents, the people that society and your instincts and everything tells you should be the people that love and care for you the most. And you have this huge facet of your being that you feel and they just won’t accept that. And in some cases, they won’t even accept any of you just because of that part of you. Um, that can feel awful.

And I’m wondering, like, do you have any misgivings? Do you feel like there’s anything that like you could have really done better, because I know for me personally, I feel like my trans experience in relation to you two at least has has been wonderful.

Roberto Santiago: Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think some of my missteps came even before either of you came out. So like Ryu, I think about that time, you know, you wanted to wear your hair in a ponytail and a scrunchie to day care. And I was like, “That’s fine. You can do that, but you have to understand some kids aren’t going to get it and they might tease you.” And you, the look on your face, when I said that, like, I thought I was trying to be supportive, right? Because I wasn’t saying don’t do it. I was just wanting to prepare you for the fact that other people might not be as accepting. And even that kind of crushed you a little bit. And I felt so bad, because I was getting out of the car to go to school, and I was like, I didn’t have a chance to fix it. I learned so much from that. I think a lot of the things that I regret or that I feel bad about are things that you, you all never saw. You know, like conversations I may have had early on with people that you weren’t privy to, but that’s where I was probably expressing my, my doubts and my misgivings and my fears and, you know, just how new it was. And I think that that’s something that it’s important for parents to know, and I think I’ve said this, but it’s OK to not be there yet. Right? Like, don’t show your kid that. Right. But if you internally feel like, “Oh, no, like, I don’t know about this, like I dunno how I feel about this,” as long as you’re kind of working through that yourself and not putting that on your kid, I work through it. Right. And the goal I hope is to get to a place of acceptance, but, you know, don’t totally beat yourself up either if you’re like, ‘I’m freaking out.’

Eloui: I think what you did right is like all the things. Everything

Roberto Santiago: Right on. Thank you.

Music fades in

Roberto Santiago: Yeah, so, you know, you’ve been living this life for a little while, and there’s a lot going on in the world right now. What are you hopeful for for the future for trans kids?

Ryu: All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, “Hey, I’m trans.” And everyone’s like, “OK, cool.” And trans people can get access to their gender-affirming care the same way cis people can get access to their gender-affirming care. I would just like to see trans people become more integrated, accepted, normalized members of society instead of sort of being ostracized and feeling othered and having to create our own safe spaces. I think the world should just be a safe space.

Roberto Santiago: Right. You want to be mundane. You don’t want to be a topic of conversation anymore.

Eloui: Like I want to be a person. I wanna be all kinds of things, and also trans. I don’t wanna be trans and all kinds of things because I feel like how a lot of people see me. I’m just me, I’m like you. You know, I’m not an exhibit, I am not an alien. I’m, I’m just a person. I want to be seen as that. Like, “Oh, I’m Eloui and I like purple. Oh, I am Eloui, also I’m trans.”

Roberto Santiago: This has been really great, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the next bit of time brings us.

Music fades in

Eloui: Thanks for supporting us.

Ryu: I’m glad that there are spaces for like stories like this to be told.

Roberto Santiago: Love you, bud.

Eloui: Love you, Dad.

Music fades out

Sasha Khokha: Roberto Santiago and his two kids, 14-year-old Eloui and 15-year-old Ryu, as part of our series Love You For You, where transgender kids talk about what it means to thrive with support from the adults in their lives.

The interviews in our Love You for You series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho with help from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern.

Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the Gender Reveal podcast for all his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. You can find all the interviews in our Love You for You series on our podcast. The California Report Magazine.

Next week on the show, we’ll meet some transgender elders who’ve got some words of wisdom for a younger generation.

Quetzali: Do you have any advice for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience?

Donna Persona: I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim, identify as a warrior, a fighter.

Sasha Khokha: That’s next week on the California Report Magazine. Your state, your stories.