'Love You for You:' Trans Kids Talk to Their Grandparents

View the full episode transcript.

Our Love You for You series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.

This week, we’ll hear how grandparents’ hearts can be moved by having a transgender grandchild, and how that can expand the worldview of someone who may not be connected to the LGBTQ+ community.

We’ll hear from a 10-year-old transgender girl in conversation with her older sister and their grandfather. He lives in a rural California county, where many of his neighbors and hunting buddies don’t have much exposure to the transgender community.

We’ll also meet a 14-year-old nonbinary kid whose grandmother lives in India, where she’s become a fierce advocate for transgender and nonbinary youth. She’s taken on the challenge of explaining her grandchild’s gender to her relatives, some of whom are 90 or older.

Episode Transcript

Love You for You Episode 2: A Grandparent’s Love

Sasha Khokha: I’m Sasha Khokha, and this is The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California and the people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.

Montage of voices

Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? 

What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? 

Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. 

Thanks for letting me be who I am. 

And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. 

What are you hopeful for the future will look like for trans kids?

All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, ‘Hey, I’m trans,’ and everyone’s like, ‘OK, cool.’

Music fades out

Sasha Khokha: We’re calling the series Love You for You, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their grandparents.

Older sister: I’m 16. I’m a sophomore in high school. Uh, my pronouns are she, her, and this is my sister.

Younger sister: Hi, I’m 10. In two days, I’m about to be 11. Um, my pronouns are she, her, and this is my Grandpa.

Grandpa: Um. I’m old, I’m their Grandparent, and I’m very proud of being their Grandparent.

Sasha Khokha: This family — an older sister, a younger sister who is trans, and their grandfather — sat down to talk together to talk about their relationship. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, has chosen to stay anonymous and not use their names out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.

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Older sister: When you first came out, what was that experience like for you?

Younger sister: I think I was like nine or eight, and it was like during the summertime, like it was right, it was kind of like in the beginning of the summer. I kind of just realized, like, yeah, that’s who I am. I’m trans, like I’m not a boy. I’m a girl. And I remember I texted my mom, “Hey, you know how I’m a boy, I think I’m actually a girl.” And she called me and she was like, “What do you mean?” And I was just like, “I’m a girl.” It was like, kind of scary because I didn’t know what anyone would think. It was kinda like awkward because like when my grandma, like I go to my grandma’s house every Friday and she used to hug me and say “Oh my little boy,” and I would look to my mom like in like disgust and like it was like kinda like weird and it was still like when I was like figuring out who I was and stuff.

Older sister: Papa, how did it feel when my sister came out to you?

Grandpa: We always knew, so it was not a big surprise. When you were just three years old, we were putting on your dress. I think it was your…

Younger sister: Which one?

Grandpa: When you’re going through, I think, the Dorothy years.

Older sister: Oh, Wizard of Oz phase?

Grandpa: I was helping you with your dress, and we were having a hard time. And I said, it’d be a lot easier if you just dressed up like a boy, and you just turned to me at the age of three and said, “I wish I was a girl.” And from then on, we knew. I knew. There’s no doubt about it. And that was it.

Older sister: Yeah. Like, I feel like a lot of people don’t understand how little of a change it really was.

Grandpa: It was not a…

Older sister: Yeah, and like I’m sure it was a bigger change for you, obviously.

Younger sister: Yes.

Older sister: But like for us, it was like nothing, it was like nothing had changed. Same old you. You know? I was proud of you.

Younger sister: Thank you.

Older sister: You’re welcome. So do you feel that you’ve never really identified with, like, male?

Younger sister: No, I feel like I never did that, I always wore wigs, I’ve always loved doing makeup and stuff. I remember one day where I was like, I’m just going to do like a classic glam. Two minutes later, I had polka dots on my face looking like I was Minnie Mouse’s dress because I thought it was so funny and that I looked amazing and yeah.

Older sister: Uh, do you wish you would have transitioned sooner?

Younger sister: Yes, everyone kind of like already knew, like I said, I loved costumes, I love dressing up, but not like when I was like a baby. Not when I, yep. But I feel maybe like, I feel like a good age I wanted to was probably like seven.

Older sister: Yeah. What’s something that you do that makes you feel most like yourself?

Younger Sister: I love expressing myself in different ways that aren’t talking. Like I love dance, I do ballet.

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Younger Sister: And I think it’s such a fun way to express myself because you can like jump up in the air and like you can show your expressions, like when you’re doing ballet, you can like spin and doing a jump, that you’re sad or you’re happy. Like I love expressing myself in dance and in music and stuff like that.

Older sister: Yeah, you are definitely one of the most creative people I know.

Younger sister: Thank you.

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Older Sister: How does it feel when somebody uses your old name?

Younger sister: Um on like on purpose, like to be mean, I feel like like it annoys me, but also like I don’t get it because if you are trying to do this on purpose, it just fades through to, it’s like you should just stop. It’s not funny, it’s not cute, it’s just annoying, and if you do this, I’m calling you out right now.

Older sister: You just don’t let it affect you?

Younger sister: Yeah, I don’t.

Grandpa: Are there any other trans kids at your school?

Younger sister: Uh. I don’t think so, I don’t know.

Grandpa: What would you say if a new kid came to school and was trans? What would you say to make the school easier?

Younger sister: Um, stay away from certain people.

Grandpa: OK.

Older sister: Would you like give them any advice on how to stand up to bullies, or, like …

Younger sister: Oh yeah, don’t let it fade to you. They are just doing that because they are insecure about yourself. They just want to tear you down, even though you’re a confident, amazing person and they’re not. So just walk away and say, “I’m better than you,” and sing your way out. That’s what I do.

Older sister: OK.

Younger sister: Yes, like this has been going on for a long time. You guys are so unoriginal. Be like, stop.

Older sister: It must be exhausting being so strong all the time, and like standing up and not letting it bother you.

Younger sister: Um, not really.

Older sister: It’s just your norm.

Younger sister: Yeah.

Music fades in

Older sister: Do you guys think that, like, younger kids are better at learning new pronouns and new names than older people are? Because the older people have been calling you by your old name for so long.

Grandpa: I think the older people have a hard time.

Older sister: Yeah, I would agree.

Grandpa: Isn’t that right?

Younger sister: Yeah, also because, like I said, our whole family is very supportive, so once they found out, I feel like I heard that some of them bought their kids gender books. I’m very glad that there’s authors and stuff and people that, oh, let’s write about this stuff, so the younger kids and younger generations can know about it.

Older sister: Yeah, just like teaching younger kids, just educating them more about everything that goes into it. I definitely think that younger kids have an easier time with like switching names and pronouns.

Grandpa: Does it hurt your feelings when Papa accidentally calls you by your old name?

Younger sister: No, because I’m not that surprised at it, like yeah. Well, not in like a mean way. I’m just like, like I’ve been used to like everyone calling me it like for so long on accident, that I’m just like, yeah, OK, like, it’s fine.

Older sister: It’s to be expected.

Younger sister: Yeah, like there’s like it’s kind of like they’re forgetting.

Music fades in

Older sister: Papa, have you like told any of your friends or people around you, like people that don’t include our close family, about my sister being trans?

Grandpa: Yes, yes, all my close friends. They all know. I have not told my neighbors. But my friends that I go hunting with and fishing with, they were all Trump supporters, but I told them, and they’ve never said, I don’t know really how they feel about it, but they’ve said anything bad about it, or you know, saying that’s a terrible thing or…

Older sister: Yeah. Do you think that like people around you would have a reaction?

Grandpa: Some, yes, I do, yes. A lot of them would not understand at all. So they’re, what you don’t know they’re afraid of, kind of.

Older sister: Yeah. For people that you don’t think would be supportive or people that would have a negative reaction, what would you want to tell them to try and change their mind or redirect their thinking?

Grandpa: It’s hard to tell someone to change their mind without knowing somebody or, you know, I just can’t say she’s a beautiful person; she does, she has a great heart. Um, I don’t think that’d change their mind. I think over time, if they actually met somebody and were closer to them, that’s how I think that they’d lose their opinion.

Older sister: Yeah, you think that they would need to have personal experience with someone.

Grandpa: Personal experience, exactly.

Older sister: What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid?

Grandpa: Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person.

Older sister: Yeah, that’s a good answer.

Younger sister: Yeah!

Older sister: Like, I don’t, it just doesn’t make sense, people who just are homophobic for no good reason. Like, for things that don’t affect them, people that they don’t know. Doesn’t make sense to me.

Younger sister: Yeah, like cyberbullying, like when people cyberbully people like you don’t know this person personally, but like, why do you want to be mean to them for no reason? Like you actually like the person, like if you’re taking time every day to, be rude like…

Older sister: Yeah. Like, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all.

Younger sister: Yes.

Older sister: What do you want the future to look like for trans kids?

Younger sister: Uh, I hope that in the future everyone’s really supportive of them and that homophobia kind of disappears. It’s probably not, but like…

Older sister: That would be wonderful.

Younger sister: Honestly, like, there’s nothing we can really do about people having their own opinions, but like, I feel like sometimes we can just keep our opinions to ourselves, you know, just like, shush.

Music fades in

Older sister: What are you most excited about for your future?

Younger sister Well, there’s two things, one, becoming an actor, like, I really want to be a child actor if there’s any agents listening. Hello, I’m here! Hi. But another thing is I would love to, like this, I love how I get to like share knowledge to other people that might not know about being trans or stuff. So I love to…

Older Sister: To educate.

Younger sister: Yeah, to educate.

Older sister: Good answer. Papa, what do you hope that the future is like for trans kids, and what do you plan on doing to support trans kids?

Grandpa: Oh, I support this one all the time. Uh, I’d do anything for her, and she knows that. I just, I don’t want the hurt that people give to trans people for there’s no reason. That’s uh, that’s what really gets me and your grandma the most. We just hate to see you hurt.

Music fades in

Grandpa: Well, I got a question for you. Have you ever talked so much to your sister before? Actually sat and chatted with your sister?

Older sister: I don’t think that a conversation like this has ever really come up. I regret not asking you more about being trans, but I’m glad that we have this opportunity.

Younger sister: Yeah, like we never really have time, like you have a bunch of school and homework, and I have like Monday I have singing, Tuesday I have ballet…

Older sister: You have lots of commitments.

Younger Sister: Yes.

Older sister: I think that this has been very, very helpful, educational for me.

Younger Sister: Mm-hmm.

Older sister And I think that having this conversation and just learning more about you and like who you are as a person will help me to better explain it to other people, you know, like to my friends and the rest of my family.

Younger sister: And I hope for all the other trans kids and other trans people that this is very educational for them. Really, people that are not, like people that still trying to figure out who they are. I hope this helps people.

Older sister: I’m excited to see what you do in the future. I know that you’ll achieve your dreams of being an actress.

Grandpa: I can’t tell you how proud I am of you two doing this. This is amazing to me. I could never ever do this at your age, especially.

Older sister: Thank you.

Grandpa: And you guys are doing a great job. Just very special, both of you guys are.

Music fades in

Sasha Khokha: In our next conversation, we’re gonna hear a kid talking with their mom and their grandmother.

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Ba: It’s important in these times, you know, with all the misconceptions that are there, that we make our voice be heard.

Sasha Khokha: They discuss what it’s meant to have their family’s support across generations. And by the way, we’re just using this kid’s first name to protect their privacy.

Rohan Hi, my name is Rohan, I’m 14 years old, non-binary, and my pronouns are they, them. I’m here with my mom.

Ma: Hi.

Rohan: And my grandma, who I call Ba.

Ba: Hello.

Rohan: She’s visiting from India.

Mom: It’s not really our family culture to speak very publicly about you being trans, and in general, we’re very open about it, actually, in our community and our family. And so it’s not something secret at all, but we’re not used to talking about it publicly.

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Rohan: There’s not really a moment I can think of when I like found out I was trans or something, I’ve always felt like I didn’t fit into either of the main gender categories.

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Mom: Yeah, and as your mom, I can say that. You’ve always been you. Even when you were one years old, two years old, three years old, you know, really very young.

Ba: When they actually came out with it, I was very glad because I just never liked the fact of anyone having to hide something because I feel that it affects their personality, and all, whereas Rohan came out with it, we all were happy to share it with friends, you know, and that’s been good. And if I can go further, actually, for me, what has been very important is to see the child thrive. And I’ve seen Rohan thriving. I mean, I’ve seen them playing football, doing those miniature paintings, being good at school, and just more than anything else, being a very sensitive, loving child. And that for me has been most important.

Mom: There were a few things in your childhood that were very distinctive, like you never wore conventional like the short swimsuit, you know, you always wanted to wear the top as well, otherwise you would refuse to, even when you were very small, two, three years old.

Ba: You know, for me, there’s just that one memory where we were at the dining table and a friend was visiting and Rohan whispered to you to say that share, and I said it is such a good moment for me that you know not only was there a coming out but there was such a confidence about it.

Mom: Oh my gosh, I had forgotten that moment. That was a really precious moment. You were such a little one. And when you were excited, I also remember when we were discussing with the counselor, you know, she was advising that you could come out. Actually, we didn’t know about non-binary and they/them pronouns. So when we were talking about your gender fluidity and she asked you what’s your coming out plan. You were a little kid, Rohan of seven, eight years old. And she asked, “Who would you like to come out to?” And you said, “Everybody.” And I remember that was really one of my favorite moments.

Rohan: I feel like one of the things was it really like, somehow I feel like I was opened up to an even bigger community, like, and that was really special, I think, like of all the different, you know, like LGBTQ kids and…

Mom: So yeah, that’s one of the unexpected boons, isn’t it, Rohan, finding that community.

Rohan: Yeah, there’s so many nice moments like going to Pride and going to like groups where there’s like so many other like trans and non-binary or anyone who’s LGBTQ kids, and I just feel like I can connect with people so well there.

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Mom: Yeah, do you want to talk about some of the challenges on the other side, the challenges of being trans in this world?

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Rohan: For me, one of the biggest things is bathroom dysphoria, like especially being non-binary, I never know, I don’t want to go in either of the like male or female bathrooms and like especially in like big public spaces. Even if it’s like in a like area that’s very supportive, I feel really uncomfortable.

Mom: If there’s a non-binary, if there’s an all-gender bathroom available, does that make it?

Rohan: Yeah, definitely.

Mom: That addresses it, huh? So that’s the solution.

Rohan: Yeah.

Mom: Any other challenges you’ve experienced or difficulties?

Rohan: So, also, another thing is immigration when we’re going to see my grandparents in India, sometimes it’s tough explaining to the immigration agent like what non-binary is and sometimes like the, they’re like trying to talk to me in Hindi or like, and that’s sometimes a language barrier and like what it says on the passport may not match how they perceive me. I feel like worried. If we get into the country or not is based on their decisions. So it’s always a very stressful time.

Mom: I think my mom and I have talked about this, that as parents, as grandparents, we just want to protect our child and protect their right to be a child and dealing with these types of things with how to use the bathroom and navigating immigration. These are things which I know I, as a child, never had to think about. The adults in the world took care of it and made it easy and safe for me. I think that’s the toughest as an adult to not be able to control that I can make a world that children can be carefree and safe in.

Ba: This is such an important part of caring for our own children and, by extension, our grandchildren, and what it would mean not just for our grandchildren but for communities at large to see. We all feel it, and we all are together in it.

Mom: The safety of children is a community sport. It’s a team sport. Putting flags, rainbow flags and trans flags everywhere. Whenever I see a rainbow flag anywhere, I feel that it’s a signal that I am safe to be myself there. I know it makes difference to me as the parent of a trans child. I’ll be biking through the neighborhood, and in a way, it’s such a small cosmetic thing, putting a flag up outside your house, but it makes big difference.

Rohan: Yeah, I really feel like that.

Mom: Do you feel that too?

Rohan: Yeah.

Mom: Buy some flags.

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Ba: I think we are able to have conversations and just feel more open, more close to each other as family. And then I realized that it opened up another horizon for me. Like one day, I walked into an LGBTQ meeting in Bombay. I’d never done that before. And there were only two of us who were not in that category. Maybe we all are a bit in that category, but strikingly so. So it was a universe which I entered in because of you. And then one time, during a literary festival, I went to listen to transgender poetry. And I had not been aware of that whole scene in Bombay, and so my college, where I had studied, has an LGBTQ club. And I’ve got connected to that. And I’m looking forward to an opportunity to talk to grandparents through that.

Rohan: I mean, Ba, you saw this firsthand, but like, where the family in India, especially like the family that was like 90 or more years older, like still really tries and understands.

Mom: The way that she explained, the way you explained, mama and helped people understand how Rohan is, you know what it’s like because for many of them they had no exposure whatsoever to, maybe not even to LGBTQ, for some of our really elderly, forget trans. Just to have you know my 80 plus, 90 plus relative unanimously, not had one relative who when we go back home Rohan can’t be themselves with that even and so by extension I can’t be myself with. And that, even though it’s around this topic of being trans, I think in a way made me feel more safe about being myself, myself, in general. Because I realize that people are more capable than I might have guessed.

Rohan: India has been such like a happy memory in general for me, like, and I’m always excited to go now because it’s like there’s so much support and love there in that family.

Ba: And I just want to give the context that the family that my husband comes from is really a Marwadi, conservative family, and my own family, maybe a little forward, but otherwise a bit right-wing, you get the picture. And yet, before Rohan came to India, last time especially, because now they had grown up, I wanted them all to know before they met them, you know, so that there would really be no quizzical looks or anything, there’d just be a joyful feeling of a grandchild visiting. We’ve got a large family, so I would tell one person from the family to inform everybody else. If one talks in a certain way, then awareness does increase and something does shift.

Mom: Yeah, Ba, thanks for sharing that. Can you reflect on whether there was something about the way that you introduced people to the topic that got the reaction that you got?

Ba: I realized that there’s no sense in being forceful or angry, you know. I just, it’s important to reach, not to confront anyone. People always love it when somebody wants to share something. I didn’t say, I want to tell you, or I want you to know. Get into a conversation in some form, like encourage them to ask if a question popped up in their mind. I remember that there was an 83-year-old woman who was like you know, I’ve never heard of this do you mind if I ask more questions? I said no, I want you to ask more questions, and if you can talk to others about it.

Mom: You know, Ba, you’re a real leader, you are held in high respect in our family. And I think also you drew on that in the sense on the trust and respect people have for you. So you were sharing very much about how you feel. They could feel your comfort with it, your not just comfort, but joy about who Rohan is, your pride in Rohan, and then I think that people follow suit a little bit with someone they respect and trust.

Ba: One thing was my own intrinsic love for Rohan. That’s the first, but also, I think my own experience as having grown up in India at a time when there was so much gender discrimination and bias against women. So I somehow know in my bones how it feels, you know, so that the combined effect of that,  think, gave me a certain energy.

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Mom: Rohan, you also have family in Wyoming from your dad’s side. And so how has that story played out?

Rohan: Yeah, I mean, I feel like it’s kind of like a bit of an unfinished story. Like we haven’t yet told them, but like in Wyoming, like that community, it is a bit of a conservative community. But I mean I’m still hopeful that maybe, you know, it could be the same situation as what happened in India. Like, we kind of expected the worst, but then it was so amazing to see all these like, people understanding.

Mom: Yeah. And so though it’s unfinished, do you feel sad about that? Or kind of a sense of anything negative, dread or uncertainty or?

Rohan: Not really. I feel like I’m kind of hopeful.

Music fades in

Mom: Rohan, have you ever imagined or thought about not being trans or wished you were cisgender?

Rohan: Um, I feel like sometimes, yeah, maybe I think about what it might have been like if I wasn’t trans, but it’s never like a, like it’s almost like thinking about what would it be like for a different person who’s not trans. It’s not like, what if I was not trans? I mean, it’s who I am, I’d be a different person if I wasn’t trans. Like it’s almost like saying like, oh, what if I had chosen to be a different height? Or what if I had chosen for my skin color to be different? Like, it’s kind of who you are, and I’m happy to be who I am.

Ba: I very, very strongly feel that everyone has a right to be what they are. I think change happens. It happens slowly, but it does happen. So we keep our faith alive.

Mom: Great. And now the most important question, which family member has supported you best? Who gets the award?

Rohan: Everyone!

Mom: Rohan, I know that you were very hesitant to do this, so thanks for doing it. Thanks for taking a chance on it.

Rohan: I mean, I feel like in the end, all the stress when we did this fully went away.

Ba: I have to say that I felt teary in between. Just we’ve talked about these things, it’s not new, but talking like this, I think I feel very heartened.

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Mom: Yeah, that’s how I feel. My heart feels very full.

Rohan: I’m really happy we did this. You know, I feel like we’re giving a message out to people.

Sasha Khokha: Next week in the Love You for You series, we’ll hear a dad talking with his two gender-expansive teenagers. Both rugby players who’ve faced different kinds of challenges on the field.

Kid: I am a person like you, and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.

Sasha Khokha: That’s next week on The California Report Magazine.

The interviews in our Love You for You series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard, with additional mixing from Katherine Monahan. Srishti Prabha is our intern. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the Gender Reveal podcast, for his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. We’ll be releasing all of the stories in our Love You for You series on our podcast.

The California Report Magazine, Your State, Your stories.

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