Episode Transcript
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Morgan Sung: Don’t worry, you’re still in the right podcast, even though it’s not Wednesday. This is, in fact, Close All Tabs, and we’re here with a very special bonus episode. This is an update on the Internet Archive, which, if you scroll way, way back, we talked about in one of the first episodes of this show.
Back in March, we went on a deep dive to try to answer this question. What happens if the Internet Archive goes dark? The Internet Archive faces a copyright lawsuit that threatens to shut it down. In a previous lawsuit, publishers argued that the Internet Archive isn’t a library. But, as of last week, thanks to a designation from California Senator Alex Padilla, the Internet archive is now a federal depository library. We’ll get into what that means. But what counts as a library online? Who decides what is and isn’t a library?
Let’s talk about what a federal depository library does, because when I reported on this for KQED, a lot of people on Instagram seemed to be confused. Some thought that by becoming a federal depository library, the Internet Archive would suddenly be under the control of the government. That is not at all the case. So to clear things up, I talked to the Internet Archive’s founder, Brewster Kahle, about what this designation really means. First question, what is a federal depository library?
Brewster Kahle: In the United States, the Federal Depository Library Program is a program administered by the Government Printing Office to ensure that all Americans have public access to government information. In the old days, it used to mean that they would get the publications from the Government Printing Office, which are the works of government, and then those would go to a large number of physical libraries that would be accessible to people.
Then as things changed to CDs and DVDs, microfilm and microfiche, then all of these libraries adapted and upgraded to these new formats. And now more and more the materials are coming in digitally. So these are then preserved on thousands of locations around the United States so that they’re close at hand to people and then served by librarians to help people find the right information within it.
Morgan Sung: The Government Printing Office established the Federal Library Depository Program in 1813, and now there are over 1,000 libraries in this network. The idea is to keep public government documents accessible. These can include books, maps, environmental reports, health studies, congressional records, newspapers — you get the idea. It does not mean the government has a say in what participating libraries do. It just means that libraries get to hold this information and share it.
Brewster Kahle: And it’s millions and millions of pages. It usually takes up maybe a whole floor of public libraries to go and store and make this available. And it has been available in things like microfiche and microfilm, which are great that they’re able to be copied so easily, but they’re not easy to access. And the idea of bringing all these materials digital and making them available digitally so that they can be woven into Wikipedia, they can be easily available in the middle of the night. You don’t have to go and travel to your local library to be able to get to it, to go in and put copies of these digital materials in those other federal depository libraries.
Morgan Sung: Libraries don’t always have the resources to sift through all these documents, digitize them, and host them online. Since they’re part of this program now, the Internet Archive can help the other libraries with all of that, which they’ve already been doing anyway. This designation just means it more convenient to work with those member libraries.
Brewster Kahle: This step is a evolution of this program of democracies library of taking all of the works of democracies and making them permanently available online. By being part of the program itself, it just gets us closer to the source of where the materials are coming from so that it’s more reliably delivered to the Internet Archive to then be made available to the patrons of the Internet Archive or partner libraries that want to get things from us. The whole internet ecosystem gets stronger as digital learners get more access to general materials, but now closer access into the government materials.
Morgan Sung: This seems like the first truly digital library to be included in the federal depository program. Do you think this signals a change in the way the government is thinking about libraries?
Brewster Kahle: I think all libraries are going digital, but because the Internet Archive was founded in 1996, as sort of part of the whole digital wave, um, the Internet archive is largely available digitally. And so I think it’s just a normal evolution of libraries. We’re just only 30 years old, so are really born during the digital era.
Morgan Sung: When it comes to copyright lawsuits, it’s unclear whether being part of this program will bolster the Internet Archive’s defense. But Brewster said this designation doesn’t change anything about how the Internet Archive operates. Because the United States government doesn’t copyright these documents, they can be digitized, archived, and shared among member libraries without any issues.
Brewster Kahle: And so they can be free flowing and be woven into the fabric of our knowledge ecosystem if they’re in digital form. So as we bring these things digital, other libraries can host on it, other services can be built on it, um, and they can freely available when often these things are only available through very expensive commercial products. So this kind of change of adapting to the digital era. It’s just a natural step that we libraries are all going through.
Morgan Sung: So what about the critics who say that the internet archive isn’t a library and doesn’t have the right to digitize archive and share information, copyrighted or not? Here’s what Brewster said.
Brewster Kahle: The Internet Archive has always lived by the ethics and the role of a library in our society. So I don’t know that this program is going to particularly change anybody’s perceptions, but I think it is just fulfilling the library role that we’ve always held.
Morgan Sung: So, still a library, that’s the ending closing thought.
Brewster Kahle: Internet Archive is a library that does interlibrary loan and physical access and digital access, just like all the other libraries out there. Towards the fantasticness of the vastness of what’s going on online in October, the Internet Archive will hit a milestone of one trillion web pages.
Morgan Sung: Wow.
Brewster Kahle: And that one trillion will — is not just a testament to, you know, what libraries are able to do but actually the sharing that people and governments have to try to create an educated populace and share knowledge widely and I think there’s uh — we should be celebrating what it is that’s going on in the broader internet towards sharing and creating materials that we’re all learning from and we’re very happy to be part of the federal depository library program.
Morgan Sung: Thanks so much for joining us, Brewster.
Brewster Kahle: Thank you, Morgan.
Morgan Sung: That’s our update. We’ll be back Wednesday.
Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show.
Original music, including our theme song by Chris Egusa. Sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM.
Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.
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