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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ki Sung talks with clinical psychologist and author Ross Greene about why traditional discipline strategies often fail students, and what educators can do instead. Greene explains his \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions\u003c/a> model, which shifts the focus away from rewards and punishments and toward identifying the unmet needs and unsolved problems behind student behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"http://www.youtube.com/embed/4qsGTXLnmKs\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. There’s been no shortage of stories about what’s troubling kids today, the outbursts, the apathy, the mental health concerns. We’re seeing some signs of progress through solutions like limiting screen time and having more in real-life social interactions, but there are still students who need help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-66349\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"265\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg 265w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg-160x242.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 265px) 100vw, 265px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene developed the \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model\u003c/a> to help all students, and it requires a different way of responding to students’ behavior. He’s the author of the recently published book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> He’s also the bestselling author of several other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome, Dr. Greene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for being here. Let’s talk first about what you describe as concerning behavior, the stuff that gets kids sent to the principal’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You say concerning behavior is how kids communicate that they’re having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. Can you tell us more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I do say that all the time, and I wish everybody knew that. We’ve, we’ve all become accustomed to the cliche “All behavior is communication.” Somehow, it doesn’t translate for a lot of people that concerning behavior communicates that a kid is frustrated or distressed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Concerning behavior is a frustration or distress response, and almost always, what the student is frustrated or distressed about is an expectation that they’re having difficulty meeting. Um, if all we pay attention to is the behavior, then we’re gonna be kinda narrow in what we can do, or… ’cause when you’re focused on behavior, all you can really do is try to modify it, and that’s usually accomplished through some mix of rewards and punishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But rewards and punishments, what a lot of people refer to as consequences, aren’t problem-solving strategies. So we have a lot of students who have experienced a lot of consequences and who are still doing poorly because the problems that are causing the behaviors that we’ve been busy consequencing often haven’t even been identified, let alone solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, it’s kinda wild to hear you say that because I hear a lot of focus on the behavior. So what are you proposing we do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I am proposing that we de-emphasize our focus on behavior, and by the way, our focus on behavior Is all around us. We are, um… When we have a kid who’s struggling and communicating that they’re struggling through their behavior, we do behavior checklists, we do behavior observations, we do a functional behavior assessment all so that we can come up with a behavior plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> When a student is struggling in a classroom and communicate that through their concerning behavior, they get a discipline referral, and what the, the information that is mostly passed along to the people who are on the receiving end of those discipline referrals is the kid’s concerning behavior. And what they often do about it is give the kid consequences for their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We need to instead, um, focus on the problems that are causing that behavior. I call them unsolved problems. The synonym for unsolved problem is unmet expectation. This includes things like stuff classroom teachers deal with every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, difficulty coming back into the classroom after recess, difficulty sitting next to Susie during circle time, difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math, difficulty agreeing with Billy on the rules of the four square game at recess, difficulty coming to school, difficulty coming to school on time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I could go on forever. Those are not typically the things people are talking about when they’re talking about a kid who’s struggling. They’re often talking about the kid’s concerning behavior and what they’re doing to try to modify it, and maybe even the diagnosis that captures those behaviors. We would be so much better off if we have an instrument that helps us identify their unsolved problems, and we do in the collaborative and proactive solutions model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And if we were engaging students in the process of solving those problems, meaning collaboratively, and since we’re now out in front of those problems, having now finally identified them, the problem should also be proactive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I think there’s something huge in what you’re talking about solutions-wise in the word collaborative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re talking about including the student as well in how to move forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That is so what I’m talking about. But I think a lot of adults, um, both in education, in education but also everywhere else, think it’s their job to divine what’s getting in the kid’s way and to divine what the solutions should be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> This is not that. Kids can be relied upon to help us understand what’s making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. I’m often asked the question, “What makes you think the kid knows?” And my answer is, “i35 years of asking.” Kids can also be relied upon to, um, come up with solutions t- about what’s getting in the way of them meeting certain expectations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So this model is moving us away from being completely adult-driven. The adult is the facilitator of a process in which kid and adult are working toward solutions together. That is very different from what typically goes on now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I had to kind of work a little extra on to better understand is your concepts of collaborative and proactive solutions, because I realize a lot of why we continue to do what we’re doing, right, looking for behaviors, uh, trying to work in a behavior-focused model, I think a lot of why we operate that way is, is rooted in our communication, you know, how we communicate with young people, which is not necessarily open-ended, you know, which is thinking more about why have you not done this thing that I asked you to do already with the consequences in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, so can you give us some examples of how people can communicate to get to that state of collaboration versus maybe how we typically communicate now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, very interesting question. You know, solving a problem collaboratively starts with identifying the problem that you want to solve with the kid, and although that sounds like sort of a given, it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Mostly because we’re so focused on behavior that we often haven’t even identified the expectations a student is having difficulty reliably meeting. So we’ve gotta start with that, and the instrument that I was talking about is called the Assessment of Skills and Unsolved Problems, and it helps us memorialize every single expectation a particular student is having difficulty reliably meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And we are now, for having done that, out in front of it, which means we don’t have to wait for the frustration response to occur before we intervene. So much of intervention, so much of what we’re training educators to do, so much of what we’re teaching kids is what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated, and that’s late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That’s crisis management. That’s not out in front of it. That’s waiting for the behavior to occur. Boy, does the game change when we proactively identify unsolved problems- That positions us to solve them proactively. Um, I’m always telling educators, being late is not a given. With some intentionality, with some commitment, with some imagination, we could be early instead of late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So identifying unsolved problems is where the whole thing begins. It then continues with prioritizing the unsolved problems you’ve identified, because you’re not gonna be able to solve everything at once. Often we encourage educators to prioritize unsolved problems that are causing safety issues, because safety is a big deal in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then it’s time to start solving a problem collaboratively and proactively with a student. Um, what might that sound like? “I’ve noticed you’ve been having difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. What’s up?” The caregiver just got the conversation going. The caregiver is now facilitating a problem-solving process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> The caregiver is not thinking about consequences, because the caregiver should know that consequences don’t solve any problems. Now we’re looking to the kid to help us understand what’s making it hard. Now, sometimes kids say something that feel like a showstopper, like, “I hate it.” But one of the other things the collaborative and proactive solutions model provides is how to drill for more information, how to probe, and the drilling strategy, there are eight of them that I would use in that circumstances, is simple reflective listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> “You hate it. Tell me more about that.” “It’s stupid.” Sounds like another showstopper, but it’s not. “It’s stupid.” Um, “I’m sorry, I’m still not exactly sure what you mean. What do you mean when you say it’s stupid?” “It’s stupid how you make me do math I don’t know how to do.” Are we starting to get some traction here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We are. Do we need to continue probing? We do, because we don’t yet know what’s making it hard for the kid to complete the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. But we do have a kid who’s now talking, and that is a wonderful thing. Um, eventually, and I’m thinking of a particular kid here, we learned that, uh, when the double-digit division problems in math were presented in words, as in word problems, they got completely stumped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But when they could do it through, um, just doing out a division problem, they could do it just fine. Good. Now we know. That’s the first step of solving a problem collaboratively, curiosity, finding out what’s been getting in the kid’s way. The second step is the adult’s step. It’s their turn to say why they, um, think it’s important that the expectation Be met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then in the third step, adult and kid are collaborating on a solution that’s going to address the concerns of both parties. Solved problems don’t cause frustration responses, only unsolved problems do. So when educators first hear about this process, and all I’ve given you is the basic outlines, the first thing they think about, and I completely understand why, is time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They ask, “When does he think we’re going to do this?” But I could make a very persuasive argument for the fact that the reason we have no time is because we haven’t been doing this. We’ve been chasing after behavior day after day, same kids. It saves a lot of time to finally identify and solve the problems we’ve been chasing after all this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Who was it that said, uh, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember who it was, but they had a good point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I ask, in that instance with the math problem, what is the unproductive way to respond that you may have seen or heard about in classrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Oh, thinking that the student’s failure to do the math is due to poor motivation, and then thinking that what this student really needs is more motivation. And that could go in a few different directions. It could sound like this: “Uh, Billy, if you do not get that math done before recess, you are not going out for recess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Could be in the form of reward, “Billy, if you get that math done, you get XYZ reward.” Very common. Um, we still have no idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the math. We’ve lost sight of the fact that we are not the first people who’ve tried to incentivize Billy to do things that are hard for him. Um, we’ve also lost sight of the fact that this is not the first time Billy’s had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> It’s the 197th, which makes this an old unsolved problem. Um, if we punish Billy for something, for a problem that he is currently unable to overcome on his own, we heighten the likelihood that Billy will exhibit a frustration response. If we dangle a reward in front of Billy, and Billy is unable to achieve that award because Billy is not yet over, uh, uh, able to overcome that problem- We still run the risk of a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen just as many frustration responses when a kid didn’t get an anticipated reward as I have in response to punishment. But the whole thing here is we still don’t have the slightest idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. And until we do, Billy’s still gonna struggle with that unsolved problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s really fascinating to hear you describe the latter because that is far more common experience from my point of view than anyone having sat down and spent time identifying an unsolved problem. I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Even when people sit down with the kid and talk to the kid, what they’re often talking with the kid about is their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, so you ran out of Mrs. Johnson’s classroom. Why’d you do that? And the answer that we most frequently get when people try to talk with kids about their frustration responses is, “I don’t know,” or the most primitive of defense mechanisms, “No, I didn’t.” Those conversations, generally speaking, go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Conversations we have about helping kids understand what’s making it hard for them to meet an expectation, actually they’re the ones who are helping us understand, and working toward a solution that finally gets the problem solved so the frustration responses subside, that’s a beautiful thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So as you said, “I don’t know,” or, you know, other things kids say like, “I don’t care,” I imagine adults also have a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Does this help get at the root of how adults respond as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, a lot of maladaptive adult frustration responses occur in the heat of the moment as well. Our goal is to get out of the heat of the moment. The heat of the moment, I can’t say this enough times, isn’t a given. I know the students are difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I get it. I know that there’s too many of them in a classroom. I get that too. But this would all be a whole lot easier, and it would be much better practice for both educators and kids if we were focused on the right thing. Now, that’s the heat of the moment part of educator frustration these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of reasons that educators should be frustrated these days. Um, I think we’ve made it a lot harder to be an educator over the last two to three decades, and yes, high-stakes testing, I’m staring at you, but that is not the only thing that has made it harder to be an educator. I’ve had many educators say to me, “They’ve taken all the humanity out of my job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They’ve turned me into a test prep robot.” Um, zero tolerance policies, um, made it more difficult for me to find out what’s really going on with a kid because zero tolerance policies just tightened the vice grip and gave us an algorithm for applying consequences to certain behaviors. Um, we’ve made a lot of things harder on educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Let there be no doubt they aren’t paid anywhere nearly enough. Um, they don’t have time. So there’s a baseline level of frustration for a lot of educators these days. They often don’t feel safe in their classrooms. Um, I find that when we implement this model, it’s not just the frustration of kids that subside, it’s the frustration of educators as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Although I will say this: there’s nothing about this model that will help educators get paid what they deserve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that is the, a huge goal for so many people in order to better serve students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be back with our guest Ross Greene, right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So, you know, I’ve heard a lot of educators say, “Meet them where they’re at,” or, you know, a version of this is, “Teach the kid you have.” Um, but that’s not happening at a wide scale. Um, is it really hard to implement? Is it, uh, like what is it about schools that make it challenging to get to that point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> You know, one of the other big focal points of the book is, um, the concept of developmental variability, which I don’t hear people talking about enough, especially in schools, but anywhere really. Um, developmental variability basically says what’s walking in the door is a bunch of individual differences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Developmental variability is just a fanciv- fancy way of saying every kid is different, and let there be no doubt that is what’s walking in every classroom. We’ve done kids and educators a tremendous disservice by saying, “Even with all that developmental variability, you gotta get every kid over the same line by the end of the school year.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> How ludicrous, and educators told us that was ludicrous 30 years ago, and it’s just as ludicrous now. One of the points I make in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point. Teachers should feel free to have every kid be their own reference point for progress. That tells you that there is no line that everybody has to get over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s no line. There’s just making sure that every student makes as much progress relative to where they started at the beginning in every school year, and we need to free teachers up to be able to do that. Um, that’s what differentiated instruction is about. That’s what personalized learning is about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, those things frequently don’t embed themselves into our practice. Every kid is their own reference point. The goal of good teaching is defined as meeting every kid where they’re at. Um, we need to free teachers up to be able to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing that I thought was really interesting about your book is, I, I think this is interesting because teachers are asked to do so much, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> They are, in many cases, social workers. Sometimes they’re stand-ins for parents. They’re just doing more and more all the time, and what you write is that you don’t want teachers to be diagnosing, to look at behavior and diagnose behavior. Um, can you tell me why that is? And, and I ask because there is so much emphasis on the behavior side of interacting with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So why, why do you want teachers to, you know, not act in that way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, because diagnoses don’t really tell you very much. Um, not very much that you don’t already know. Diagnoses are sometimes the gateway for a kid to get services. Diagnosis can sometimes be the gateway for a kid to get funding for those services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’m a mental health professional, and I don’t find that diagnoses give me much useful information about a kid. Um, what gives me the useful information? What skills this kid is struggling with and what expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting, and I get that information from the assessment of skills and unsolved problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Here’s a, um, I was speaking at a, uh, autism conference in Denmark pre-COVID, and a mother in my audience raised her hand very tentatively and said, “Yeah, but I found my daughter’s autism diagnosis to be very useful.” I said, “That’s good.” Then she thought about it for a second, and she said, “But I think what you’re saying-” “Is that my daughter’s autism diagnosis really doesn’t tell me anything about her specific skills or the specific expectations she’s having difficulty meeting.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I said, “Right.” She thought about it a little bit more, and then she said, “And I think what you’re saying is that once I identify my daughter’s skills and unsolved problems, I’m going to find that I have information that is far more useful than her psychiatric diagnosis.” I said, “Probably.” Um, focusing on diagnoses focuses on, makes us focus on behavior, because if we look at the diagnostic criteria for the vast majority of childhood psychiatric disorders, what we’re going to find is a long list of behaviors, frustration responses, distress responses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So long as we’re focused on the behavior, we’re gonna be late every time, because behavior occurs after a kid is already having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. We’ve been waiting for behavior to occur. We need to start anticipating, identifying, and solving problems instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene is the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He’s also the author of other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School, and is the founding director of Lives in the Balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ki Sung talks with clinical psychologist and author Ross Greene about why traditional discipline strategies often fail students, and what educators can do instead. Greene explains his \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions\u003c/a> model, which shifts the focus away from rewards and punishments and toward identifying the unmet needs and unsolved problems behind student behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"http://www.youtube.com/embed/4qsGTXLnmKs\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. There’s been no shortage of stories about what’s troubling kids today, the outbursts, the apathy, the mental health concerns. We’re seeing some signs of progress through solutions like limiting screen time and having more in real-life social interactions, but there are still students who need help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-66349\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"265\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg 265w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg-160x242.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 265px) 100vw, 265px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene developed the \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model\u003c/a> to help all students, and it requires a different way of responding to students’ behavior. He’s the author of the recently published book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> He’s also the bestselling author of several other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome, Dr. Greene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for being here. Let’s talk first about what you describe as concerning behavior, the stuff that gets kids sent to the principal’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You say concerning behavior is how kids communicate that they’re having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. Can you tell us more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I do say that all the time, and I wish everybody knew that. We’ve, we’ve all become accustomed to the cliche “All behavior is communication.” Somehow, it doesn’t translate for a lot of people that concerning behavior communicates that a kid is frustrated or distressed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Concerning behavior is a frustration or distress response, and almost always, what the student is frustrated or distressed about is an expectation that they’re having difficulty meeting. Um, if all we pay attention to is the behavior, then we’re gonna be kinda narrow in what we can do, or… ’cause when you’re focused on behavior, all you can really do is try to modify it, and that’s usually accomplished through some mix of rewards and punishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But rewards and punishments, what a lot of people refer to as consequences, aren’t problem-solving strategies. So we have a lot of students who have experienced a lot of consequences and who are still doing poorly because the problems that are causing the behaviors that we’ve been busy consequencing often haven’t even been identified, let alone solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, it’s kinda wild to hear you say that because I hear a lot of focus on the behavior. So what are you proposing we do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I am proposing that we de-emphasize our focus on behavior, and by the way, our focus on behavior Is all around us. We are, um… When we have a kid who’s struggling and communicating that they’re struggling through their behavior, we do behavior checklists, we do behavior observations, we do a functional behavior assessment all so that we can come up with a behavior plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> When a student is struggling in a classroom and communicate that through their concerning behavior, they get a discipline referral, and what the, the information that is mostly passed along to the people who are on the receiving end of those discipline referrals is the kid’s concerning behavior. And what they often do about it is give the kid consequences for their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We need to instead, um, focus on the problems that are causing that behavior. I call them unsolved problems. The synonym for unsolved problem is unmet expectation. This includes things like stuff classroom teachers deal with every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, difficulty coming back into the classroom after recess, difficulty sitting next to Susie during circle time, difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math, difficulty agreeing with Billy on the rules of the four square game at recess, difficulty coming to school, difficulty coming to school on time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I could go on forever. Those are not typically the things people are talking about when they’re talking about a kid who’s struggling. They’re often talking about the kid’s concerning behavior and what they’re doing to try to modify it, and maybe even the diagnosis that captures those behaviors. We would be so much better off if we have an instrument that helps us identify their unsolved problems, and we do in the collaborative and proactive solutions model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And if we were engaging students in the process of solving those problems, meaning collaboratively, and since we’re now out in front of those problems, having now finally identified them, the problem should also be proactive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I think there’s something huge in what you’re talking about solutions-wise in the word collaborative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re talking about including the student as well in how to move forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That is so what I’m talking about. But I think a lot of adults, um, both in education, in education but also everywhere else, think it’s their job to divine what’s getting in the kid’s way and to divine what the solutions should be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> This is not that. Kids can be relied upon to help us understand what’s making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. I’m often asked the question, “What makes you think the kid knows?” And my answer is, “i35 years of asking.” Kids can also be relied upon to, um, come up with solutions t- about what’s getting in the way of them meeting certain expectations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So this model is moving us away from being completely adult-driven. The adult is the facilitator of a process in which kid and adult are working toward solutions together. That is very different from what typically goes on now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I had to kind of work a little extra on to better understand is your concepts of collaborative and proactive solutions, because I realize a lot of why we continue to do what we’re doing, right, looking for behaviors, uh, trying to work in a behavior-focused model, I think a lot of why we operate that way is, is rooted in our communication, you know, how we communicate with young people, which is not necessarily open-ended, you know, which is thinking more about why have you not done this thing that I asked you to do already with the consequences in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, so can you give us some examples of how people can communicate to get to that state of collaboration versus maybe how we typically communicate now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, very interesting question. You know, solving a problem collaboratively starts with identifying the problem that you want to solve with the kid, and although that sounds like sort of a given, it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Mostly because we’re so focused on behavior that we often haven’t even identified the expectations a student is having difficulty reliably meeting. So we’ve gotta start with that, and the instrument that I was talking about is called the Assessment of Skills and Unsolved Problems, and it helps us memorialize every single expectation a particular student is having difficulty reliably meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And we are now, for having done that, out in front of it, which means we don’t have to wait for the frustration response to occur before we intervene. So much of intervention, so much of what we’re training educators to do, so much of what we’re teaching kids is what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated, and that’s late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That’s crisis management. That’s not out in front of it. That’s waiting for the behavior to occur. Boy, does the game change when we proactively identify unsolved problems- That positions us to solve them proactively. Um, I’m always telling educators, being late is not a given. With some intentionality, with some commitment, with some imagination, we could be early instead of late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So identifying unsolved problems is where the whole thing begins. It then continues with prioritizing the unsolved problems you’ve identified, because you’re not gonna be able to solve everything at once. Often we encourage educators to prioritize unsolved problems that are causing safety issues, because safety is a big deal in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then it’s time to start solving a problem collaboratively and proactively with a student. Um, what might that sound like? “I’ve noticed you’ve been having difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. What’s up?” The caregiver just got the conversation going. The caregiver is now facilitating a problem-solving process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> The caregiver is not thinking about consequences, because the caregiver should know that consequences don’t solve any problems. Now we’re looking to the kid to help us understand what’s making it hard. Now, sometimes kids say something that feel like a showstopper, like, “I hate it.” But one of the other things the collaborative and proactive solutions model provides is how to drill for more information, how to probe, and the drilling strategy, there are eight of them that I would use in that circumstances, is simple reflective listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> “You hate it. Tell me more about that.” “It’s stupid.” Sounds like another showstopper, but it’s not. “It’s stupid.” Um, “I’m sorry, I’m still not exactly sure what you mean. What do you mean when you say it’s stupid?” “It’s stupid how you make me do math I don’t know how to do.” Are we starting to get some traction here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We are. Do we need to continue probing? We do, because we don’t yet know what’s making it hard for the kid to complete the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. But we do have a kid who’s now talking, and that is a wonderful thing. Um, eventually, and I’m thinking of a particular kid here, we learned that, uh, when the double-digit division problems in math were presented in words, as in word problems, they got completely stumped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But when they could do it through, um, just doing out a division problem, they could do it just fine. Good. Now we know. That’s the first step of solving a problem collaboratively, curiosity, finding out what’s been getting in the kid’s way. The second step is the adult’s step. It’s their turn to say why they, um, think it’s important that the expectation Be met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then in the third step, adult and kid are collaborating on a solution that’s going to address the concerns of both parties. Solved problems don’t cause frustration responses, only unsolved problems do. So when educators first hear about this process, and all I’ve given you is the basic outlines, the first thing they think about, and I completely understand why, is time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They ask, “When does he think we’re going to do this?” But I could make a very persuasive argument for the fact that the reason we have no time is because we haven’t been doing this. We’ve been chasing after behavior day after day, same kids. It saves a lot of time to finally identify and solve the problems we’ve been chasing after all this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Who was it that said, uh, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember who it was, but they had a good point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I ask, in that instance with the math problem, what is the unproductive way to respond that you may have seen or heard about in classrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Oh, thinking that the student’s failure to do the math is due to poor motivation, and then thinking that what this student really needs is more motivation. And that could go in a few different directions. It could sound like this: “Uh, Billy, if you do not get that math done before recess, you are not going out for recess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Could be in the form of reward, “Billy, if you get that math done, you get XYZ reward.” Very common. Um, we still have no idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the math. We’ve lost sight of the fact that we are not the first people who’ve tried to incentivize Billy to do things that are hard for him. Um, we’ve also lost sight of the fact that this is not the first time Billy’s had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> It’s the 197th, which makes this an old unsolved problem. Um, if we punish Billy for something, for a problem that he is currently unable to overcome on his own, we heighten the likelihood that Billy will exhibit a frustration response. If we dangle a reward in front of Billy, and Billy is unable to achieve that award because Billy is not yet over, uh, uh, able to overcome that problem- We still run the risk of a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen just as many frustration responses when a kid didn’t get an anticipated reward as I have in response to punishment. But the whole thing here is we still don’t have the slightest idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. And until we do, Billy’s still gonna struggle with that unsolved problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s really fascinating to hear you describe the latter because that is far more common experience from my point of view than anyone having sat down and spent time identifying an unsolved problem. I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Even when people sit down with the kid and talk to the kid, what they’re often talking with the kid about is their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, so you ran out of Mrs. Johnson’s classroom. Why’d you do that? And the answer that we most frequently get when people try to talk with kids about their frustration responses is, “I don’t know,” or the most primitive of defense mechanisms, “No, I didn’t.” Those conversations, generally speaking, go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Conversations we have about helping kids understand what’s making it hard for them to meet an expectation, actually they’re the ones who are helping us understand, and working toward a solution that finally gets the problem solved so the frustration responses subside, that’s a beautiful thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So as you said, “I don’t know,” or, you know, other things kids say like, “I don’t care,” I imagine adults also have a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Does this help get at the root of how adults respond as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, a lot of maladaptive adult frustration responses occur in the heat of the moment as well. Our goal is to get out of the heat of the moment. The heat of the moment, I can’t say this enough times, isn’t a given. I know the students are difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I get it. I know that there’s too many of them in a classroom. I get that too. But this would all be a whole lot easier, and it would be much better practice for both educators and kids if we were focused on the right thing. Now, that’s the heat of the moment part of educator frustration these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of reasons that educators should be frustrated these days. Um, I think we’ve made it a lot harder to be an educator over the last two to three decades, and yes, high-stakes testing, I’m staring at you, but that is not the only thing that has made it harder to be an educator. I’ve had many educators say to me, “They’ve taken all the humanity out of my job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They’ve turned me into a test prep robot.” Um, zero tolerance policies, um, made it more difficult for me to find out what’s really going on with a kid because zero tolerance policies just tightened the vice grip and gave us an algorithm for applying consequences to certain behaviors. Um, we’ve made a lot of things harder on educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Let there be no doubt they aren’t paid anywhere nearly enough. Um, they don’t have time. So there’s a baseline level of frustration for a lot of educators these days. They often don’t feel safe in their classrooms. Um, I find that when we implement this model, it’s not just the frustration of kids that subside, it’s the frustration of educators as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Although I will say this: there’s nothing about this model that will help educators get paid what they deserve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that is the, a huge goal for so many people in order to better serve students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be back with our guest Ross Greene, right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So, you know, I’ve heard a lot of educators say, “Meet them where they’re at,” or, you know, a version of this is, “Teach the kid you have.” Um, but that’s not happening at a wide scale. Um, is it really hard to implement? Is it, uh, like what is it about schools that make it challenging to get to that point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> You know, one of the other big focal points of the book is, um, the concept of developmental variability, which I don’t hear people talking about enough, especially in schools, but anywhere really. Um, developmental variability basically says what’s walking in the door is a bunch of individual differences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Developmental variability is just a fanciv- fancy way of saying every kid is different, and let there be no doubt that is what’s walking in every classroom. We’ve done kids and educators a tremendous disservice by saying, “Even with all that developmental variability, you gotta get every kid over the same line by the end of the school year.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> How ludicrous, and educators told us that was ludicrous 30 years ago, and it’s just as ludicrous now. One of the points I make in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point. Teachers should feel free to have every kid be their own reference point for progress. That tells you that there is no line that everybody has to get over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s no line. There’s just making sure that every student makes as much progress relative to where they started at the beginning in every school year, and we need to free teachers up to be able to do that. Um, that’s what differentiated instruction is about. That’s what personalized learning is about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, those things frequently don’t embed themselves into our practice. Every kid is their own reference point. The goal of good teaching is defined as meeting every kid where they’re at. Um, we need to free teachers up to be able to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing that I thought was really interesting about your book is, I, I think this is interesting because teachers are asked to do so much, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> They are, in many cases, social workers. Sometimes they’re stand-ins for parents. They’re just doing more and more all the time, and what you write is that you don’t want teachers to be diagnosing, to look at behavior and diagnose behavior. Um, can you tell me why that is? And, and I ask because there is so much emphasis on the behavior side of interacting with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So why, why do you want teachers to, you know, not act in that way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, because diagnoses don’t really tell you very much. Um, not very much that you don’t already know. Diagnoses are sometimes the gateway for a kid to get services. Diagnosis can sometimes be the gateway for a kid to get funding for those services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’m a mental health professional, and I don’t find that diagnoses give me much useful information about a kid. Um, what gives me the useful information? What skills this kid is struggling with and what expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting, and I get that information from the assessment of skills and unsolved problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Here’s a, um, I was speaking at a, uh, autism conference in Denmark pre-COVID, and a mother in my audience raised her hand very tentatively and said, “Yeah, but I found my daughter’s autism diagnosis to be very useful.” I said, “That’s good.” Then she thought about it for a second, and she said, “But I think what you’re saying-” “Is that my daughter’s autism diagnosis really doesn’t tell me anything about her specific skills or the specific expectations she’s having difficulty meeting.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I said, “Right.” She thought about it a little bit more, and then she said, “And I think what you’re saying is that once I identify my daughter’s skills and unsolved problems, I’m going to find that I have information that is far more useful than her psychiatric diagnosis.” I said, “Probably.” Um, focusing on diagnoses focuses on, makes us focus on behavior, because if we look at the diagnostic criteria for the vast majority of childhood psychiatric disorders, what we’re going to find is a long list of behaviors, frustration responses, distress responses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So long as we’re focused on the behavior, we’re gonna be late every time, because behavior occurs after a kid is already having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. We’ve been waiting for behavior to occur. We need to start anticipating, identifying, and solving problems instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene is the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He’s also the author of other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School, and is the founding director of Lives in the Balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For 30 years, Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa has relied on AmeriCorps services to support their students that need extra help. But when federal funding was cut, and later reinstated, that programming stalled, leaving some students behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, principal Nina Craig explains how the loss of tutors affected instruction and student relationships, while new AmeriCorps members, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli, describe stepping into classrooms with limited time and resources. We learn how even a few missed months of literacy support reduces how many students can be served.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1557384124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Marlena Jackson Rotondo. It’s almost Winter break at Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa, California, and tutoring sessions for the school year have just begun. The schools to AmeriCorps tutors have gone through a crash course of training to prepare for the reading and writing support they’ll provide for the rest of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>AmeriCorps is an independent government agency whose volunteer members provide educational support and services to schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>On this morning, a small group of fourth graders reluctantly file into the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>They’ve been pulled out of their classroom to spend 30 minutes with the tutors, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maya has the students get straight to work reading a story out loud from a workbook In unison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna start with our choral style of reading today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Ready? Go!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>All reading:\u003c/strong> My mother says to me, I choose a pretty paper fan with a picture of leaves and fireflies. I will keep my fan forever. When I grow up I will look at it and remember this night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The tutors stop the students every couple of sentences to ask about vocabulary in the text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So what happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> What unexpectedly happened? The wet… they were warned about the weather. They thought the waves were only gonna get to how tall? Do you remember from the first page? Student: mmmm….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The students seem timid, and when they do speak up, it’s very quiet. And sometimes the students don’t answer the questions at all, but Maya and Elena, unfazed by the silence, move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is normal student behavior for the first week of tutoring at Bellevue Elementary, but what isn’t normal is that the first week of tutoring has been delayed this year by more than two months. Tutoring was supposed to start in early fall. Last April, all AmeriCorps funding was terminated by the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> This ended an almost three decade long collaboration between Bellevue Elementary and AmeriCorps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cuts happened immediately and without explanation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> It was shocking how quickly it happened. Um, uh, literally felt like overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> so it kind of felt like the rug was pulled out from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s Nina Craig Bellevue, elementary’s principal of 10 years. Before that, she was a fifth grade teacher and she recalls working with AmeriCorps members then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> As a classroom teacher I remember them coming into my room and working with some of my students and having that partnership as a teacher\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And because the AmeriCorps members were such an integral part of the school community, the cuts were difficult for Bellevue students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> The relationship with the kids that was established and for the kids to all of a sudden have these people gone that are such a vital part of our school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> was really sad and really hard to explain, because they really do become a part of our school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> Through lawsuits. AmeriCorps funding cuts were reversed in June of last year, but by that time, schools like Bellevue Elementary were already behind for the next school year’s cycle of tutoring. Some schools across the district opted not to continue with tutoring and mentoring support from AmeriCorps members for the next school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is because they had to make decisions about their funding and without the certainty of AmeriCorps services, they had to go without. And because programming was delayed, Bellevue students didn’t start tutoring until December instead of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> there hasn’t been any tutoring offered for our third through sixth grade students until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> So without AmeriCorps, those students aren’t receiving any type of tutoring or intervention. And unless the teacher’s able to carve out time within their day to provide that,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> AmeriCorps members provide one of Bellevue elementary’s only forms of tier two support. That’s targeted support in a small group setting. In this case, it helps students who are struggling with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> In years past, we’ve had literacy paraprofessionals that could support our tier two. Um, however, with budget cuts, this is our first year without having them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> And so, um, we have one instructional aide. For the entire school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> But yeah, we’re very limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The two AmeriCorps tutors contribute greatly to Bellevue’s tier two manpower, but it’s still not enough. The school reduced the kindergarten day by one and a half hours so that kindergarten teachers could provide extra support for Bellevue’s first and second grade classrooms. On short notice, and with no wiggle room in their budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Bellevue Elementary had to make some hard choices. We’ll find out how they’re doing right after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>***Midroll Break***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I visited Bellevue Elementary back in December, I spoke with Fonzi, a fourth grader, receiving small group literacy tutoring for 30 minutes per day, four days per week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi: \u003c/strong>Dog Man and then I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fonzi’s telling me about the books he likes to read at home.,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What was that one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What’s that one about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> It’s um, there’s like different books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi:\u003c/strong> There’s, um, a Titanic book that, um, sunk in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So you read about different survival stories? Whoa, that’s pretty cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> He feels like there’s less reading time when he’s in his classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> The things that are different is, um, we don’t like read a lot of books,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But when he’s in his tutoring sessions, reading time, one of his favorite things to do, is extended\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> At AR time, we um, read, we read books for 15 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi is part of a small group of fourth grade students who have been identified as needing extra support with reading. During a normal year, there’s enough time for two groups of students to cycle through tutoring support from AmeriCorps members. But this year, since tutoring at Bellevue started late, AmeriCorps members only have time to help half of the students that they normally would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> At sites like Bellevue, the AmeriCorps tutors have become a staple in the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> There’s so many ways AmeriCorps impacts because of the tutoring, the recess playtime, the mentoring. It’s so much connection. You guys probably know more of the kids’ names than I do, um, at this point. And you just started\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And for Maya and Elena who are just starting their careers, the program offers them a glimpse into their professional future\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I know I want to do a job where I’m helping people and so I thought this was a great opportunity to, yeah, like, get some real life experience where I’m like serving others and I’m thinking of maybe doing something with social work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The opportunity to work with students in a school setting also offered Maya something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I’ve never worked with kids, and so I was kind of like, I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, I don’t know if I..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> …If I can do this, at first, you know, I was a little timid, but then you kind of just jump in and, um, you start connecting with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I spoke with the tutoring pair back in December, Elena was already feeling optimistic about her future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So far this job I feel extremely passionate about, which is, it’s just really nice waking up in the morning and I, I wake up early, like I wake up before my alarm clock ’cause I’m just excited to come to the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> A couple months later, Maya and Elena felt comfortable in their roles,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I just like know what I’m doing a little more. I kinda have a sense of like, we have a daily routine. I have really like good relationships with students now, so I’m like so excited to see them every day and they’re excited to see me and yeah, it’s great. It’s really good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And the AmeriCorps tutors have also noticed improvements in their students as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> One of my students in sixth grade, in one of his tests, he was and like the 26th percentile for reading in like November. And now he is like in the 42nd percentile and I’m like, whoa, that’s so like rewarding and exciting that he’s like doing so much better and able to do that on his own now, like do it more on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But the reality of having to work within the school’s limited resources has also sunk in for Maya.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Sometimes also it’s like really hard to see like how some students struggle so much in school or like, you know, and I can only do so much and help them so much in that 30 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> yeah, just doing the best you can every day with what you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> Cat was going to wait the cat, and then this could change to hundreds of bugs in one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> He called his keys and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I walked into the tutoring classroom in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> It felt like a transformed space with students who were relaxed and eager to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Elena had also noticed a difference in her students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> I feel like they’re a lot more confident in answering questions and what to write down. So I feel like that’s. That’s like the biggest difference I’ve seen is like their confidence in what they’re writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> So the door, what’s the door? Who does he know? What’s the door? It’s D, the OOR. Yeah. I thought it was E-D-O-O-O-R-H. What? All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi has also gained confidence in his reading abilities since December. He told me he’s reading three to four books a day and even tackling some chapter books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> When I first came in and reading groups, um, we started reading books and stuff and I kind of got into it and I started reading books every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The benefits of extra reading support provided by the AmeriCorps tutors at school has extended into Fonzie’s home life as well. He and his siblings made up a reading game that they like to play at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> We guess, like, the book that they have. They don’t show the covers. And we, guess, and then if we get it right, the people that have the book that the people say, they’re eliminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Even though there won’t be enough time to bring in another group of fourth graders for tutoring this school year, Elena and Maya look forward to the rest of their time with the students that they are able to help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Thank you to Bellevue Elementary’s faculty and staff who contributed their time to make this episode possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The MindShift team includes me, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Nimah Gobir, and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is head of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is KQED’s, editor-in-chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mindshift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED, some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio artists. San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For 30 years, Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa has relied on AmeriCorps services to support their students that need extra help. But when federal funding was cut, and later reinstated, that programming stalled, leaving some students behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, principal Nina Craig explains how the loss of tutors affected instruction and student relationships, while new AmeriCorps members, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli, describe stepping into classrooms with limited time and resources. We learn how even a few missed months of literacy support reduces how many students can be served.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1557384124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Marlena Jackson Rotondo. It’s almost Winter break at Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa, California, and tutoring sessions for the school year have just begun. The schools to AmeriCorps tutors have gone through a crash course of training to prepare for the reading and writing support they’ll provide for the rest of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>AmeriCorps is an independent government agency whose volunteer members provide educational support and services to schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>On this morning, a small group of fourth graders reluctantly file into the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>They’ve been pulled out of their classroom to spend 30 minutes with the tutors, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maya has the students get straight to work reading a story out loud from a workbook In unison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna start with our choral style of reading today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Ready? Go!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>All reading:\u003c/strong> My mother says to me, I choose a pretty paper fan with a picture of leaves and fireflies. I will keep my fan forever. When I grow up I will look at it and remember this night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The tutors stop the students every couple of sentences to ask about vocabulary in the text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So what happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> What unexpectedly happened? The wet… they were warned about the weather. They thought the waves were only gonna get to how tall? Do you remember from the first page? Student: mmmm….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The students seem timid, and when they do speak up, it’s very quiet. And sometimes the students don’t answer the questions at all, but Maya and Elena, unfazed by the silence, move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is normal student behavior for the first week of tutoring at Bellevue Elementary, but what isn’t normal is that the first week of tutoring has been delayed this year by more than two months. Tutoring was supposed to start in early fall. Last April, all AmeriCorps funding was terminated by the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> This ended an almost three decade long collaboration between Bellevue Elementary and AmeriCorps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cuts happened immediately and without explanation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> It was shocking how quickly it happened. Um, uh, literally felt like overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> so it kind of felt like the rug was pulled out from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s Nina Craig Bellevue, elementary’s principal of 10 years. Before that, she was a fifth grade teacher and she recalls working with AmeriCorps members then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> As a classroom teacher I remember them coming into my room and working with some of my students and having that partnership as a teacher\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And because the AmeriCorps members were such an integral part of the school community, the cuts were difficult for Bellevue students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> The relationship with the kids that was established and for the kids to all of a sudden have these people gone that are such a vital part of our school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> was really sad and really hard to explain, because they really do become a part of our school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> Through lawsuits. AmeriCorps funding cuts were reversed in June of last year, but by that time, schools like Bellevue Elementary were already behind for the next school year’s cycle of tutoring. Some schools across the district opted not to continue with tutoring and mentoring support from AmeriCorps members for the next school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is because they had to make decisions about their funding and without the certainty of AmeriCorps services, they had to go without. And because programming was delayed, Bellevue students didn’t start tutoring until December instead of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> there hasn’t been any tutoring offered for our third through sixth grade students until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> So without AmeriCorps, those students aren’t receiving any type of tutoring or intervention. And unless the teacher’s able to carve out time within their day to provide that,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> AmeriCorps members provide one of Bellevue elementary’s only forms of tier two support. That’s targeted support in a small group setting. In this case, it helps students who are struggling with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> In years past, we’ve had literacy paraprofessionals that could support our tier two. Um, however, with budget cuts, this is our first year without having them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> And so, um, we have one instructional aide. For the entire school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> But yeah, we’re very limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The two AmeriCorps tutors contribute greatly to Bellevue’s tier two manpower, but it’s still not enough. The school reduced the kindergarten day by one and a half hours so that kindergarten teachers could provide extra support for Bellevue’s first and second grade classrooms. On short notice, and with no wiggle room in their budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Bellevue Elementary had to make some hard choices. We’ll find out how they’re doing right after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>***Midroll Break***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I visited Bellevue Elementary back in December, I spoke with Fonzi, a fourth grader, receiving small group literacy tutoring for 30 minutes per day, four days per week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi: \u003c/strong>Dog Man and then I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fonzi’s telling me about the books he likes to read at home.,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What was that one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What’s that one about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> It’s um, there’s like different books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi:\u003c/strong> There’s, um, a Titanic book that, um, sunk in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So you read about different survival stories? Whoa, that’s pretty cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> He feels like there’s less reading time when he’s in his classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> The things that are different is, um, we don’t like read a lot of books,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But when he’s in his tutoring sessions, reading time, one of his favorite things to do, is extended\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> At AR time, we um, read, we read books for 15 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi is part of a small group of fourth grade students who have been identified as needing extra support with reading. During a normal year, there’s enough time for two groups of students to cycle through tutoring support from AmeriCorps members. But this year, since tutoring at Bellevue started late, AmeriCorps members only have time to help half of the students that they normally would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> At sites like Bellevue, the AmeriCorps tutors have become a staple in the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> There’s so many ways AmeriCorps impacts because of the tutoring, the recess playtime, the mentoring. It’s so much connection. You guys probably know more of the kids’ names than I do, um, at this point. And you just started\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And for Maya and Elena who are just starting their careers, the program offers them a glimpse into their professional future\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I know I want to do a job where I’m helping people and so I thought this was a great opportunity to, yeah, like, get some real life experience where I’m like serving others and I’m thinking of maybe doing something with social work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The opportunity to work with students in a school setting also offered Maya something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I’ve never worked with kids, and so I was kind of like, I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, I don’t know if I..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> …If I can do this, at first, you know, I was a little timid, but then you kind of just jump in and, um, you start connecting with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I spoke with the tutoring pair back in December, Elena was already feeling optimistic about her future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So far this job I feel extremely passionate about, which is, it’s just really nice waking up in the morning and I, I wake up early, like I wake up before my alarm clock ’cause I’m just excited to come to the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> A couple months later, Maya and Elena felt comfortable in their roles,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I just like know what I’m doing a little more. I kinda have a sense of like, we have a daily routine. I have really like good relationships with students now, so I’m like so excited to see them every day and they’re excited to see me and yeah, it’s great. It’s really good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And the AmeriCorps tutors have also noticed improvements in their students as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> One of my students in sixth grade, in one of his tests, he was and like the 26th percentile for reading in like November. And now he is like in the 42nd percentile and I’m like, whoa, that’s so like rewarding and exciting that he’s like doing so much better and able to do that on his own now, like do it more on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But the reality of having to work within the school’s limited resources has also sunk in for Maya.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Sometimes also it’s like really hard to see like how some students struggle so much in school or like, you know, and I can only do so much and help them so much in that 30 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> yeah, just doing the best you can every day with what you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> Cat was going to wait the cat, and then this could change to hundreds of bugs in one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> He called his keys and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I walked into the tutoring classroom in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> It felt like a transformed space with students who were relaxed and eager to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Elena had also noticed a difference in her students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> I feel like they’re a lot more confident in answering questions and what to write down. So I feel like that’s. That’s like the biggest difference I’ve seen is like their confidence in what they’re writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> So the door, what’s the door? Who does he know? What’s the door? It’s D, the OOR. Yeah. I thought it was E-D-O-O-O-R-H. What? All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi has also gained confidence in his reading abilities since December. He told me he’s reading three to four books a day and even tackling some chapter books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> When I first came in and reading groups, um, we started reading books and stuff and I kind of got into it and I started reading books every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The benefits of extra reading support provided by the AmeriCorps tutors at school has extended into Fonzie’s home life as well. He and his siblings made up a reading game that they like to play at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> We guess, like, the book that they have. They don’t show the covers. And we, guess, and then if we get it right, the people that have the book that the people say, they’re eliminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Even though there won’t be enough time to bring in another group of fourth graders for tutoring this school year, Elena and Maya look forward to the rest of their time with the students that they are able to help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Thank you to Bellevue Elementary’s faculty and staff who contributed their time to make this episode possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The MindShift team includes me, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Nimah Gobir, and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is head of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is KQED’s, editor-in-chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mindshift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED, some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio artists. San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Randy Porter has been teaching music in the Oakland Unified School District for 40 years, but he never set out to become a music teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he was younger, he had his sights set on a professional music career as a guitarist. Then in the 1980s, he landed a long-term substitute teaching role in two very different schools within the same district: Hillcrest, which is in an affluent neighborhood in the Oakland Hills, and Whittier in East Oakland, which was an epicenter of the crack cocaine epidemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The stark disparity between the two schools challenged Porter’s perception of his own impact on the students who weren’t receiving the education they deserved. So, he decided to continue on with his teaching career and eventually landed permanent teaching positions throughout the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66246\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66246\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of students\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Randy Porter and a group of students at Cazadero Music Camp from in 2019 hangs on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These days at Roosevelt Middle School, his classroom stands out. When most middle schoolers are learning the classics, Porter’s students dive deep into the world of jazz, even going so far as to play avant-garde compositions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re the only middle school band in the Local Supercluster, as far as I know, certainly in the Milky Way galaxy, that specializes in the music of Sun Ra,” said Porter. Sun Ra was an American jazz composer and band leader, known for his experimental music style and cosmic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Porter truly believes in the musical ability of kids of all ages. When he was Berkeley Symphony’s director of music education, he would have the orchestra perform pieces composed by 5-year-olds. And in years past, he’s created opportunities for his elementary and middle school students to record their own albums – something that he’s doing for his current middle school students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66244\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66244\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of newspaper clipping on a wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">News clippings of Randy Porter from 1994 hang on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Porter’s the type of teacher who provides a safe space for his students to practice, hang out and have a snack after school. But this is Mr. Porter’s last year teaching because he is retiring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this juncture, the future of music classes in Oakland public schools is uncertain because of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064579/oaklands-school-district-must-cut-100-million-its-proposed-plan-doesnt-get-close\">looming budget cuts\u003c/a> across the district. Porter does not want arts education to fall to the wayside so he started a \u003ca href=\"https://ebayc.liveimpact.org/fundraiser/li/7632/D/200582\">fundraiser for Roosevelt’s music program\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66247\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66247\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holds repaired cello\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter sets up a cello that he repaired with Gorilla Glue in his classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[The arts] is an absolutely essential part of a kid’s development. Music, art, PE, manipulating things with your hands – this is how kids learn,” he said. “It’s how a lot of people learn. And when you take them away, a certain portion of the population gets a little bit left behind,” Porter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many benefits for students who study and play music. Research conducted by the University of Southern California’s Brain and Creativity Institute found that \u003ca href=\"https://today.usc.edu/childrens-brains-develop-faster-with-music-training/\">learning music enhances auditory pathways in the brain\u003c/a>, which could help with other learning systems affected by these neural pathways like reading and language. In 2022, policy caught up with science when California voters passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11934191/what-prop-28-funding-will-mean-for-arts-education-in-california\">Proposition 28\u003c/a>, requiring the state to provide additional funding for music and arts programs for public schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For students like seventh grader Diego, Porter’s band class wasn’t a natural choice when he entered middle school. “It was so weird,” Diego said of jazz music. “I was like, ‘will people actually wanna listen to this?’ I didn’t even want to play it at first.” But, he marched forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I hesitated and then I just stuck with it,” he said. “I like that there’s so many possibilities and different combinations so that you can make any different one.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of Porter’s seventh grade students, Imani, who plays guitar, became interested in playing Sun Ra’s music in band class. “All the parts are so different and they all come together into chaotic bliss,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66245\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66245\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Student holding guitar\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Imani plays the guitar in Randy Porter’s music class at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some of Porter’s former students have gone on to new heights, like 10th grade student Ryan, who comes back to Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt every Thursday to mentor middle schoolers. When Ryan arrived in Porter’s classroom about five years ago, he had experience playing violin and had picked up the cello. But Porter’s jazz-filled band class presented something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just felt exciting to be in the music class…that’s when I started to think, ‘wait, I need to switch to an instrument that’s more suitable for jazz,’” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, at the suggestion of Porter, Ryan picked up his third instrument – the trombone. “It really opened up a new world for me,” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, he plays a total of fifteen instruments, is a member of the SFJAZZ High School All-Stars Band, and has played in a youth orchestra for three years, all at the encouragement of Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Middle school students are in an age group that is notorious in schools and among teachers for their unpredictability, high energy, and increased social awareness. But if you can tap into their interests, the potential for growth is what Porter finds most exciting about this age group, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66248\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1998px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holding bass instrument\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter tests an upright bass before the start of classes at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He plans on being an active member of the local music education community in his retirement, but the students are what he’ll miss most. “I wanna be helpful. I wanna mentor teachers. I want to do what I can just to see things continue to be successful,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he’ll also take time to tap back into the professional music world. This summer you can find Porter playing at one of his annual \u003ca href=\"https://oakland.chapelofthechimes.com/about-us/news-and-events/event-detail/58006-oakland-annual-solstice-concert\">gigs\u003c/a>, Chapel of the Chimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6654357560\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Randy Porter has been teaching music in the Oakland Unified School District for 40 years, but he never set out to become a music teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he was younger, he had his sights set on a professional music career as a guitarist. Then in the 1980s, he landed a long-term substitute teaching role in two very different schools within the same district: Hillcrest, which is in an affluent neighborhood in the Oakland Hills, and Whittier in East Oakland, which was an epicenter of the crack cocaine epidemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The stark disparity between the two schools challenged Porter’s perception of his own impact on the students who weren’t receiving the education they deserved. So, he decided to continue on with his teaching career and eventually landed permanent teaching positions throughout the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66246\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66246\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of students\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Randy Porter and a group of students at Cazadero Music Camp from in 2019 hangs on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These days at Roosevelt Middle School, his classroom stands out. When most middle schoolers are learning the classics, Porter’s students dive deep into the world of jazz, even going so far as to play avant-garde compositions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re the only middle school band in the Local Supercluster, as far as I know, certainly in the Milky Way galaxy, that specializes in the music of Sun Ra,” said Porter. Sun Ra was an American jazz composer and band leader, known for his experimental music style and cosmic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Porter truly believes in the musical ability of kids of all ages. When he was Berkeley Symphony’s director of music education, he would have the orchestra perform pieces composed by 5-year-olds. And in years past, he’s created opportunities for his elementary and middle school students to record their own albums – something that he’s doing for his current middle school students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66244\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66244\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of newspaper clipping on a wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">News clippings of Randy Porter from 1994 hang on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Porter’s the type of teacher who provides a safe space for his students to practice, hang out and have a snack after school. But this is Mr. Porter’s last year teaching because he is retiring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this juncture, the future of music classes in Oakland public schools is uncertain because of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064579/oaklands-school-district-must-cut-100-million-its-proposed-plan-doesnt-get-close\">looming budget cuts\u003c/a> across the district. Porter does not want arts education to fall to the wayside so he started a \u003ca href=\"https://ebayc.liveimpact.org/fundraiser/li/7632/D/200582\">fundraiser for Roosevelt’s music program\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66247\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66247\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holds repaired cello\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter sets up a cello that he repaired with Gorilla Glue in his classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[The arts] is an absolutely essential part of a kid’s development. Music, art, PE, manipulating things with your hands – this is how kids learn,” he said. “It’s how a lot of people learn. And when you take them away, a certain portion of the population gets a little bit left behind,” Porter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many benefits for students who study and play music. Research conducted by the University of Southern California’s Brain and Creativity Institute found that \u003ca href=\"https://today.usc.edu/childrens-brains-develop-faster-with-music-training/\">learning music enhances auditory pathways in the brain\u003c/a>, which could help with other learning systems affected by these neural pathways like reading and language. In 2022, policy caught up with science when California voters passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11934191/what-prop-28-funding-will-mean-for-arts-education-in-california\">Proposition 28\u003c/a>, requiring the state to provide additional funding for music and arts programs for public schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For students like seventh grader Diego, Porter’s band class wasn’t a natural choice when he entered middle school. “It was so weird,” Diego said of jazz music. “I was like, ‘will people actually wanna listen to this?’ I didn’t even want to play it at first.” But, he marched forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I hesitated and then I just stuck with it,” he said. “I like that there’s so many possibilities and different combinations so that you can make any different one.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of Porter’s seventh grade students, Imani, who plays guitar, became interested in playing Sun Ra’s music in band class. “All the parts are so different and they all come together into chaotic bliss,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66245\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66245\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Student holding guitar\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Imani plays the guitar in Randy Porter’s music class at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some of Porter’s former students have gone on to new heights, like 10th grade student Ryan, who comes back to Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt every Thursday to mentor middle schoolers. When Ryan arrived in Porter’s classroom about five years ago, he had experience playing violin and had picked up the cello. But Porter’s jazz-filled band class presented something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just felt exciting to be in the music class…that’s when I started to think, ‘wait, I need to switch to an instrument that’s more suitable for jazz,’” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, at the suggestion of Porter, Ryan picked up his third instrument – the trombone. “It really opened up a new world for me,” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, he plays a total of fifteen instruments, is a member of the SFJAZZ High School All-Stars Band, and has played in a youth orchestra for three years, all at the encouragement of Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Middle school students are in an age group that is notorious in schools and among teachers for their unpredictability, high energy, and increased social awareness. But if you can tap into their interests, the potential for growth is what Porter finds most exciting about this age group, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66248\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1998px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holding bass instrument\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter tests an upright bass before the start of classes at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He plans on being an active member of the local music education community in his retirement, but the students are what he’ll miss most. “I wanna be helpful. I wanna mentor teachers. I want to do what I can just to see things continue to be successful,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he’ll also take time to tap back into the professional music world. This summer you can find Porter playing at one of his annual \u003ca href=\"https://oakland.chapelofthechimes.com/about-us/news-and-events/event-detail/58006-oakland-annual-solstice-concert\">gigs\u003c/a>, Chapel of the Chimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent years, public interest in school boards has dropped, and what we do hear about usually has to do with a meeting gone rogue. And voter turnout for school board elections remains really low at an average of about 10 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott R. Levy, a lecturer at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, argues that this is an issue worth paying attention to because restoring power to school boards would hold the answer to public education reform and create true positive change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levy spent the first 20 years of his professional career as an investment banker, but he left his job on Wall Street after volunteering at his kids’ public school. That’s where he fell in love with the world of school governance. In 2015 he won his first elected seat on a school board, a seat that he held for the next 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode we discuss his new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262552721/why-school-boards-matter/\">Why School Boards Matter: Reclaiming The Heart of American Education and Democracy.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5042213997\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So just to get us launched into the topic, can you give me a brief and basic explanation of the configuration and function of a school board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Sure. So think of the board as a governance body. The board is not supposed to be running the schools day to day. Anytime you see a board member as a person running the school day to day, that’s a problem. They’re there to oversee budget allocation and to think about policy and think about strategic priorities and to ultimately choose a superintendent and then manage the superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s safe to say that there are very few people that are doing school board service for the money because it really is a labor of love. Board members come from all walks of life. There’s really no requirements per se, other than you have to be 18 years old in most places. You have to be a citizen and be able to vote and you have to certainly have residency in that community. So there are some restrictions, but otherwise it’s open to anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to have a student in the public schools. It could be that their kids attend private school. There aren’t rules around that. And so it’s really meant to be little “d” democracy. It’s whoever the public believes should be in that seat. In a school board, you really don’t have power over who’s serving with you. It’s decided by the public as it should be through the voting process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You state in the introduction of your book that school boards are the vital organ for education decision making. Why do you think that there seems to be this broad lack of awareness or misunderstanding about how a school board might serve the public?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ll tell you a story about when I first won my local election and became a school board member. I was walking down the street in my town and I got stopped by somebody that I knew. And they came up to me and they said, “Oh, congratulations, Scott. I heard you won the school board race. And that’s great because I’m going to be watching you on the web because, you know, the meetings are streamed so that any citizen can watch the meetings.” And I was really excited. I’m like, “wow, somebody actually watches these meetings.” And then he went on to say, yeah, yeah. I’ve been having trouble falling asleep. And so it’s super helpful to watch these meetings, because they’re really boring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many board meetings are somewhat routine. And that may be why there’s not a lot of attention on it. You’re going through budget line items, and it’s very technical. But I think, certainly, things changed in 2020 when COVID hit. And there were a lot of extremely important decisions that had to be made, and they had to be made very quickly. And they were decisions that there was a lot of attention over. And so the spotlight started to shine on school board rooms where a lot of these debates were happening. And then ever since 2020, there have been this constant stream of issues that have been adjudicated in boardrooms that have gotten a lot of attention.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think now people have more awareness, but having said that, people are, I think, generally focused on the clips that we may see on social media that sometimes have millions of hits where there’s arguments and they’re talking about really contentious cultural issues that divide us. But at the end of the day, if you walk into most school board meetings, whether it’s policy, budget. High level curriculum decisions, you’re focusing on various programs and initiatives. That’s what most of the discussion will be about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s the gist that I get. I’ve seen those viral moments online, but when I have clicked into a live stream of a school board meeting, it is probably what most might say is a mundane meeting of a couple folks in the room trying to make decisions. Maybe a couple people show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s only recent, and when I say recent, recent in American history that school boards have lost some of their power, sometimes due to school reform policy. Can you explain some of that historical significance of this loss of power and where the power that school boards used to hold has now been delegated to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s so interesting when you look back to early American history, school boards existed and they did absolutely everything. The states would ultimately have power to be responsible for public education, but they delegated authority to school boards to not only govern the schools, but even do the administration work because back in early days there was not even a superintendency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now in the days that we’ve seen of the 21st century, to your point, there’s been an incredible shift of power to states, mostly, and to some extent, the federal government. And there’s some really good and legitimate reasons for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Think about Brown versus Board of Education, where from a civil rights perspective, the federal judiciary decided to step in and make things right because it wasn’t happening correctly at the local level and there was inequity. Think about the way schools are funded, which historically was property taxes, where in many states there were communities that just simply could not fund the public schools to any sort of a basic level. So in many respects, there were a series of lawsuits that came about that really, you know, demanded that the state step in and be that equilibrating mechanism to fund schools to a level where students are getting a very appropriate public education, regardless of where they live. And so there are a lot of good reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are also probably some more sinister reasons. Education is a very large component of our economy. People care deeply about education. It affects a lot of families. And so certainly governors, legislators at the state level and at the federal level, look at that and say, ooh, maybe I should also be charged with having a role in education. So a lot the power has shifted to state and federal players. So I think we all need to step back and think about the fact of whether or not we agree with the particular approach any state is taking. Is that the right mechanism to have all that happen at the state level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I also just wanted to ask you very quickly about the power that school boards hold after the dismantling of the Department of Education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>I think there’s been a general sense that when certainly the current administration, the Trump administration, they were campaigning, they’re campaigning on pushing a lot of power back to states and localities, which in many respects would be commensurate with my thesis of how local districts should have a degree of autonomy. And boards are really important and can do a lot of good in trying to steer American education in a positive direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think what we’ve certainly seen over the last bunch of months is a continuation of the fact that the federal government is quite involved. So regardless of what we hear about the Department of Education shrinking or potentially being abolished, we’ve seen examples of where the federal government has certainly exerted power in places that they see something they don’t like. And I think that’s what we’ve seen in many administrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> I wanted to ask about education reform policy and some of the tensions that we see between these big reforms that might happen, one that just always sticks in my mind as common core. What would you say to someone, and I’m talking about voters, who believe that reform policy is the way forward and have kind of lost faith in the school board as an institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>The first thing I would say is that school boards are far from perfect. And there are many boards that certainly make decisions that many of us may look at and say are flawed. And I think there’s no perfect system to govern schools. Having said all that, I think in my mind, school boards are the place where governance can happen in a way that involves the community. And also provides a deep understanding of the district itself, because school boards are part of the districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, districts are very different in this country and they don’t have the same problems. You may have a district that has enrollment that’s dramatically increasing. You may have a district next door that has declining enrollment. That means incredibly different things in terms of how to manage a budget, how to manage operations, how to manage personnel. You could have a district in the same county that is in the 99th percentile in academic outcomes but has a stress and anxiety issue in their high school. And then the district next door might be below proficiency in math and reading. And you need to think about solutions that are very different in those two schools. And it’s extremely hard, I think, to come up with good one-size-fits-all policies that are gonna solve all our problems. And if you do, inevitably, you’re going to hit a roadblock.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the local communities aren’t vested in these programs, in these policies, and we see time and time again, Common Core being an example where it backfires. Because I think it’s so important to have people on the ground that are going to be affected be part of the process to come up with, ultimately, the solutions. And so that’s why I keep coming back to the fact that with all of its flaws, school boards are places that I think we should invest in. So if we started to focus our reform attention there, I actually think we could do a lot of good. And the funny thing is that reformers have looked at every place in the universe except for school boards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You brought up something that kind of reminded me of a huge issue that I hear from, and I think a lot of people have heard from educators when it comes to education reform policy is that the experts who are the teachers in the classroom are not being consulted for these massive changes, or they are not been consulted in the ways that, you know, I think most of them would feel is appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about the partnership that teachers and educators might have with school boards on the granular level where teachers don’t have to remain in this frustrated state of not seeing any change or not seeing any trust in their expertise or professionalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Yes. And I will start by saying that my mom was a kindergarten teacher in public school for over 30 years and I talked to her a lot about what her experience was like when I first became a school board member and ever since then I’ve looked at a lot of the research on teacher attrition and teacher satisfaction which should trouble all of us because the numbers are as we know not what they should be for a profession that’s so noble and and so important. And I think that one of the things that always comes out of studies that are done is the lack of autonomy that teachers feel, to your point, that their expertise isn’t valued, that they don’t have a say over what they’re doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of things that I talk about in my book is initiative fatigue. And it’s something that I always knew about because corporations have initiative fatigue, but when I got to education and my mom told me about this, I realized it was at a different level. And by the time you get to a classroom, if you think about all of the people that throw initiatives at schools, you have federal initiatives, you have state legislative initiatives, you have governors that come in with initiatives, every state has of course a regulatory body, a state school board in New York State and California, we have the regions, and they have initiatives. Then you have board members and the board as a whole that have initiatives, you have administrators at the centralized level, and then of course you have building administrators. And so that’s true. It’s very suffocating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so one of the things I talk about is how, again, if we try to be mindful of getting a better balance between state, federal, and local control, where the local governance entity does have more say over initiative flow, and then you had boards that were thoughtful about having a reasonable number of initiatives at any one time, I think naturally what’s gonna happen is that teachers have a better voice. Because a good board knows that board members are not professional educators and boards have to listen to administrators and teachers in their district. When decisions are made up above, it’s incredibly hard. You might have a committee of a teacher from here and a teacher from there, but we know that it’s not a grassroots effort when a decision’s made at a state or even a national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what it takes to establish and maintain that relationship between local teachers and the school board? What does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>With teachers in particular, if you think about it, boards often have committees, and committees might have representation of teachers and of administrators from different buildings. That’s one way that there could be a really good dialog. There’s often groups like, for instance, the PTA, where you’ll have teachers, and you’ll have parents together, and board members can be a liaison to that group or present, and update on what’s going on at the district level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In many districts, there’s a tradition of board members visiting schools once a year. So you get to maybe go into a classroom and see what’s going on. You would never do that every day, but to do that, to get a sense and a flavor for what’s happening in classrooms, that’s an amazing way to do it as well. Some districts have maybe the board president address teachers once a year. And that’s a really interesting and helpful way, I think also to build a relationship. So there are many ways and it’s important. It’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>So we just talked about partnership between educators and school boards, and you do say in your book that school boards are a mechanism for parent influence. Can you explain that mechanism, what that might look like coming from a parent who has maybe never voted in a local election, seeing an issue with their school and then becoming involved? What does that pathway look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So one of the things that I did, which I think was the most fun when I was researching for the book was I went back into the archives and I did ask the question, it seems like there are so many scenes around the country of very angry parents really yelling and screaming at school boards, has it always been this way or is this something new? And there’s no doubt what I found when you look back is that there have always been points in history where you’ve seen parent anger come out. And I think there’s a very natural question that underlies all of these battles, which is where is the line between parent rights and government control? And I do think that sometimes we’re very quick to either dismiss or to re-emphasize some parent point that is being espoused. But all of us, if we sat in the room and we polled 10 of us, let’s say, and we said, okay, where is that line? We might delineate that line at a slightly different point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you go back to the early 1900s, and I do this in my book, and it’s quite extraordinary, you could see the same exact language being used by parents at school board meetings saying, you can’t vaccinate my kids. If you vaccinate, my kids, you’re violating my rights and their rights, and you’re evaluating my constitutional rights. And they were doing that over the smallpox vaccine. And during COVID, we saw the same thing around the COVID vaccine. And that’s just one example. And so throughout American history, we’ve had this tension. So I think it’s very natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the other bit of tension is indoctrination versus education. Where is that line? And so I think we just have to have a little bit of grace in a way. And I think, the best we could do is say that sometimes people are going to be disagreeing on these subjects. And how do we want to resolve them? I think there’s no better way than with full transparency. In your local community. I think the other piece of your question, though, is if I’m a parent and I’m angry about something, what do I do? Start out, if it’s an issue in a classroom, with the teacher. Go to the teacher, have a conversation, and if that doesn’t work and you’re not satisfied, of course you have the right to talk to the principal or talk to the assistant principal. And if you’re still very unsatisfied, then you can bring it up, but you really don’t want to jump to the school board over the backs of many teachers, administrators that then will not have a chance to solve that problem with you first. If it’s an issue about, let’s say policy or budget allocation that clearly falls in the realm of the board, then of course, um, you have every right to go to the board, but you can also call a board member. If you see a board member at a soccer match or in church, you can certainly have discussions about things that are on your mind and air them, and then of course you have that right to be part of the public comment period too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the other thing that I would also add which is I think something that you always have to think about when you’re a school board member is If somebody comes to public comment and they express concern about a particular issue You always want to listen. It’s incredibly important to listen and to decide, um, you know whether you understand that viewpoint whether you agree with that viewpoint or not, but you don’t know for sure whether or not that viewpoint is 1% of your community or whether it represents 65% of your community. And I just believe that you have to be in touch with your community in lots of different ways and just have lots of data points so that you do get a sense of what the sentiment is like out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Also, speaking of parent influence, we’ve seen a lot of what I think would have been referred to as fringe movements of charter schools and homeschooling. We’re seeing that become a lot more mainstream, not just to talk about, but to practice. And obviously, the system of charter schools is becoming heavily influenced by school systems and there is a relationship between school boards. Charter schools, and also homeschooling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So can you kind of explain some of the influence or partnership that school boards have on those types of systems, and what people and voters can pay attention to when it comes to those educational practices?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Particularly with charter schools, the rules are different depending on what state you’re in. And sometimes school boards have a very influential role in whether or not a charter school can exist. And in other cases, the school board may have absolutely no power and no say. And really what happens is the charter decision is made more centrally at the state level by maybe the state board or one of the state entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I also think that there are a lot of interesting implications when you think about this long term. And I’ll give you one case study that happened in New York that I think could be an interesting microcosm of the situation that can happen in other parts of the country if you fast forward 10, 20 years from now and school choice and vouchers become more commonplace. And it’s actually a district that I attended when I was a kid and now is governed by board, the majority of whom send their kids to private school and it’s created an incredibly complex situation where there is a tremendous rift and rift is an understatement between the public school community and the private school community around the way the public district is being managed. On the one hand these are people that pay taxes and they have every right to, you know, run for school board and they’re winning the elections fair and square. On the other hand, you have individuals that are making decisions about a public school system, where many in the public school community argue are not in the best interest of public school students. And so there’s just incredible amounts of tension. And so you can see this being something that could happen in many communities down the road, if we have many, many more students that are not in the public system, and you might have the preponderance of voters that are in the not public system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanted to end on something that maybe is a little bit uplifting and positive and what you hope to see. Who should care about school boards or how should they care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So to end on a positive note, I think that one thing that I would think that all listeners may agree with is that when we look at our national politics, regardless of what side you’re on, I think it is clear that we have more polarization than we’ve ever had in recent history. And I do believe that when we look at local school districts, the reason that everybody should care is because they are a mechanism to potentially reduce polarization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the one hand, I know we see these scenes of people fighting in boardrooms here, like, how could they reduce polarization? It looks like boardrooms are incredibly polarized. But I would contend that they are the one place where people that have differences of opinion actually come together in person. And because everything is transparent and because local community members have a voice at the microphone, people can actually express their view. And if that view is diametrically different, others have to listen. And there is something incredibly American about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think that there’s this healing process in the fact that we can unify around what happens in a school board room, which is that people of all walks of life that have very different political beliefs can come express their view and have to be listened to. And maybe, just maybe we can realize that sometimes people with very opposing views from a policy perspective might be both coming from a good place, it’s just different places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This does seem like a giant lesson in civics. I really appreciate your time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s my pleasure being with you.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent years, public interest in school boards has dropped, and what we do hear about usually has to do with a meeting gone rogue. And voter turnout for school board elections remains really low at an average of about 10 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott R. Levy, a lecturer at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, argues that this is an issue worth paying attention to because restoring power to school boards would hold the answer to public education reform and create true positive change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levy spent the first 20 years of his professional career as an investment banker, but he left his job on Wall Street after volunteering at his kids’ public school. That’s where he fell in love with the world of school governance. In 2015 he won his first elected seat on a school board, a seat that he held for the next 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode we discuss his new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262552721/why-school-boards-matter/\">Why School Boards Matter: Reclaiming The Heart of American Education and Democracy.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5042213997\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So just to get us launched into the topic, can you give me a brief and basic explanation of the configuration and function of a school board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Sure. So think of the board as a governance body. The board is not supposed to be running the schools day to day. Anytime you see a board member as a person running the school day to day, that’s a problem. They’re there to oversee budget allocation and to think about policy and think about strategic priorities and to ultimately choose a superintendent and then manage the superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s safe to say that there are very few people that are doing school board service for the money because it really is a labor of love. Board members come from all walks of life. There’s really no requirements per se, other than you have to be 18 years old in most places. You have to be a citizen and be able to vote and you have to certainly have residency in that community. So there are some restrictions, but otherwise it’s open to anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to have a student in the public schools. It could be that their kids attend private school. There aren’t rules around that. And so it’s really meant to be little “d” democracy. It’s whoever the public believes should be in that seat. In a school board, you really don’t have power over who’s serving with you. It’s decided by the public as it should be through the voting process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You state in the introduction of your book that school boards are the vital organ for education decision making. Why do you think that there seems to be this broad lack of awareness or misunderstanding about how a school board might serve the public?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ll tell you a story about when I first won my local election and became a school board member. I was walking down the street in my town and I got stopped by somebody that I knew. And they came up to me and they said, “Oh, congratulations, Scott. I heard you won the school board race. And that’s great because I’m going to be watching you on the web because, you know, the meetings are streamed so that any citizen can watch the meetings.” And I was really excited. I’m like, “wow, somebody actually watches these meetings.” And then he went on to say, yeah, yeah. I’ve been having trouble falling asleep. And so it’s super helpful to watch these meetings, because they’re really boring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many board meetings are somewhat routine. And that may be why there’s not a lot of attention on it. You’re going through budget line items, and it’s very technical. But I think, certainly, things changed in 2020 when COVID hit. And there were a lot of extremely important decisions that had to be made, and they had to be made very quickly. And they were decisions that there was a lot of attention over. And so the spotlight started to shine on school board rooms where a lot of these debates were happening. And then ever since 2020, there have been this constant stream of issues that have been adjudicated in boardrooms that have gotten a lot of attention.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think now people have more awareness, but having said that, people are, I think, generally focused on the clips that we may see on social media that sometimes have millions of hits where there’s arguments and they’re talking about really contentious cultural issues that divide us. But at the end of the day, if you walk into most school board meetings, whether it’s policy, budget. High level curriculum decisions, you’re focusing on various programs and initiatives. That’s what most of the discussion will be about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s the gist that I get. I’ve seen those viral moments online, but when I have clicked into a live stream of a school board meeting, it is probably what most might say is a mundane meeting of a couple folks in the room trying to make decisions. Maybe a couple people show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s only recent, and when I say recent, recent in American history that school boards have lost some of their power, sometimes due to school reform policy. Can you explain some of that historical significance of this loss of power and where the power that school boards used to hold has now been delegated to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s so interesting when you look back to early American history, school boards existed and they did absolutely everything. The states would ultimately have power to be responsible for public education, but they delegated authority to school boards to not only govern the schools, but even do the administration work because back in early days there was not even a superintendency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now in the days that we’ve seen of the 21st century, to your point, there’s been an incredible shift of power to states, mostly, and to some extent, the federal government. And there’s some really good and legitimate reasons for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Think about Brown versus Board of Education, where from a civil rights perspective, the federal judiciary decided to step in and make things right because it wasn’t happening correctly at the local level and there was inequity. Think about the way schools are funded, which historically was property taxes, where in many states there were communities that just simply could not fund the public schools to any sort of a basic level. So in many respects, there were a series of lawsuits that came about that really, you know, demanded that the state step in and be that equilibrating mechanism to fund schools to a level where students are getting a very appropriate public education, regardless of where they live. And so there are a lot of good reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are also probably some more sinister reasons. Education is a very large component of our economy. People care deeply about education. It affects a lot of families. And so certainly governors, legislators at the state level and at the federal level, look at that and say, ooh, maybe I should also be charged with having a role in education. So a lot the power has shifted to state and federal players. So I think we all need to step back and think about the fact of whether or not we agree with the particular approach any state is taking. Is that the right mechanism to have all that happen at the state level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I also just wanted to ask you very quickly about the power that school boards hold after the dismantling of the Department of Education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>I think there’s been a general sense that when certainly the current administration, the Trump administration, they were campaigning, they’re campaigning on pushing a lot of power back to states and localities, which in many respects would be commensurate with my thesis of how local districts should have a degree of autonomy. And boards are really important and can do a lot of good in trying to steer American education in a positive direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think what we’ve certainly seen over the last bunch of months is a continuation of the fact that the federal government is quite involved. So regardless of what we hear about the Department of Education shrinking or potentially being abolished, we’ve seen examples of where the federal government has certainly exerted power in places that they see something they don’t like. And I think that’s what we’ve seen in many administrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> I wanted to ask about education reform policy and some of the tensions that we see between these big reforms that might happen, one that just always sticks in my mind as common core. What would you say to someone, and I’m talking about voters, who believe that reform policy is the way forward and have kind of lost faith in the school board as an institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>The first thing I would say is that school boards are far from perfect. And there are many boards that certainly make decisions that many of us may look at and say are flawed. And I think there’s no perfect system to govern schools. Having said all that, I think in my mind, school boards are the place where governance can happen in a way that involves the community. And also provides a deep understanding of the district itself, because school boards are part of the districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, districts are very different in this country and they don’t have the same problems. You may have a district that has enrollment that’s dramatically increasing. You may have a district next door that has declining enrollment. That means incredibly different things in terms of how to manage a budget, how to manage operations, how to manage personnel. You could have a district in the same county that is in the 99th percentile in academic outcomes but has a stress and anxiety issue in their high school. And then the district next door might be below proficiency in math and reading. And you need to think about solutions that are very different in those two schools. And it’s extremely hard, I think, to come up with good one-size-fits-all policies that are gonna solve all our problems. And if you do, inevitably, you’re going to hit a roadblock.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the local communities aren’t vested in these programs, in these policies, and we see time and time again, Common Core being an example where it backfires. Because I think it’s so important to have people on the ground that are going to be affected be part of the process to come up with, ultimately, the solutions. And so that’s why I keep coming back to the fact that with all of its flaws, school boards are places that I think we should invest in. So if we started to focus our reform attention there, I actually think we could do a lot of good. And the funny thing is that reformers have looked at every place in the universe except for school boards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You brought up something that kind of reminded me of a huge issue that I hear from, and I think a lot of people have heard from educators when it comes to education reform policy is that the experts who are the teachers in the classroom are not being consulted for these massive changes, or they are not been consulted in the ways that, you know, I think most of them would feel is appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about the partnership that teachers and educators might have with school boards on the granular level where teachers don’t have to remain in this frustrated state of not seeing any change or not seeing any trust in their expertise or professionalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Yes. And I will start by saying that my mom was a kindergarten teacher in public school for over 30 years and I talked to her a lot about what her experience was like when I first became a school board member and ever since then I’ve looked at a lot of the research on teacher attrition and teacher satisfaction which should trouble all of us because the numbers are as we know not what they should be for a profession that’s so noble and and so important. And I think that one of the things that always comes out of studies that are done is the lack of autonomy that teachers feel, to your point, that their expertise isn’t valued, that they don’t have a say over what they’re doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of things that I talk about in my book is initiative fatigue. And it’s something that I always knew about because corporations have initiative fatigue, but when I got to education and my mom told me about this, I realized it was at a different level. And by the time you get to a classroom, if you think about all of the people that throw initiatives at schools, you have federal initiatives, you have state legislative initiatives, you have governors that come in with initiatives, every state has of course a regulatory body, a state school board in New York State and California, we have the regions, and they have initiatives. Then you have board members and the board as a whole that have initiatives, you have administrators at the centralized level, and then of course you have building administrators. And so that’s true. It’s very suffocating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so one of the things I talk about is how, again, if we try to be mindful of getting a better balance between state, federal, and local control, where the local governance entity does have more say over initiative flow, and then you had boards that were thoughtful about having a reasonable number of initiatives at any one time, I think naturally what’s gonna happen is that teachers have a better voice. Because a good board knows that board members are not professional educators and boards have to listen to administrators and teachers in their district. When decisions are made up above, it’s incredibly hard. You might have a committee of a teacher from here and a teacher from there, but we know that it’s not a grassroots effort when a decision’s made at a state or even a national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what it takes to establish and maintain that relationship between local teachers and the school board? What does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>With teachers in particular, if you think about it, boards often have committees, and committees might have representation of teachers and of administrators from different buildings. That’s one way that there could be a really good dialog. There’s often groups like, for instance, the PTA, where you’ll have teachers, and you’ll have parents together, and board members can be a liaison to that group or present, and update on what’s going on at the district level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In many districts, there’s a tradition of board members visiting schools once a year. So you get to maybe go into a classroom and see what’s going on. You would never do that every day, but to do that, to get a sense and a flavor for what’s happening in classrooms, that’s an amazing way to do it as well. Some districts have maybe the board president address teachers once a year. And that’s a really interesting and helpful way, I think also to build a relationship. So there are many ways and it’s important. It’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>So we just talked about partnership between educators and school boards, and you do say in your book that school boards are a mechanism for parent influence. Can you explain that mechanism, what that might look like coming from a parent who has maybe never voted in a local election, seeing an issue with their school and then becoming involved? What does that pathway look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So one of the things that I did, which I think was the most fun when I was researching for the book was I went back into the archives and I did ask the question, it seems like there are so many scenes around the country of very angry parents really yelling and screaming at school boards, has it always been this way or is this something new? And there’s no doubt what I found when you look back is that there have always been points in history where you’ve seen parent anger come out. And I think there’s a very natural question that underlies all of these battles, which is where is the line between parent rights and government control? And I do think that sometimes we’re very quick to either dismiss or to re-emphasize some parent point that is being espoused. But all of us, if we sat in the room and we polled 10 of us, let’s say, and we said, okay, where is that line? We might delineate that line at a slightly different point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you go back to the early 1900s, and I do this in my book, and it’s quite extraordinary, you could see the same exact language being used by parents at school board meetings saying, you can’t vaccinate my kids. If you vaccinate, my kids, you’re violating my rights and their rights, and you’re evaluating my constitutional rights. And they were doing that over the smallpox vaccine. And during COVID, we saw the same thing around the COVID vaccine. And that’s just one example. And so throughout American history, we’ve had this tension. So I think it’s very natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the other bit of tension is indoctrination versus education. Where is that line? And so I think we just have to have a little bit of grace in a way. And I think, the best we could do is say that sometimes people are going to be disagreeing on these subjects. And how do we want to resolve them? I think there’s no better way than with full transparency. In your local community. I think the other piece of your question, though, is if I’m a parent and I’m angry about something, what do I do? Start out, if it’s an issue in a classroom, with the teacher. Go to the teacher, have a conversation, and if that doesn’t work and you’re not satisfied, of course you have the right to talk to the principal or talk to the assistant principal. And if you’re still very unsatisfied, then you can bring it up, but you really don’t want to jump to the school board over the backs of many teachers, administrators that then will not have a chance to solve that problem with you first. If it’s an issue about, let’s say policy or budget allocation that clearly falls in the realm of the board, then of course, um, you have every right to go to the board, but you can also call a board member. If you see a board member at a soccer match or in church, you can certainly have discussions about things that are on your mind and air them, and then of course you have that right to be part of the public comment period too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the other thing that I would also add which is I think something that you always have to think about when you’re a school board member is If somebody comes to public comment and they express concern about a particular issue You always want to listen. It’s incredibly important to listen and to decide, um, you know whether you understand that viewpoint whether you agree with that viewpoint or not, but you don’t know for sure whether or not that viewpoint is 1% of your community or whether it represents 65% of your community. And I just believe that you have to be in touch with your community in lots of different ways and just have lots of data points so that you do get a sense of what the sentiment is like out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Also, speaking of parent influence, we’ve seen a lot of what I think would have been referred to as fringe movements of charter schools and homeschooling. We’re seeing that become a lot more mainstream, not just to talk about, but to practice. And obviously, the system of charter schools is becoming heavily influenced by school systems and there is a relationship between school boards. Charter schools, and also homeschooling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So can you kind of explain some of the influence or partnership that school boards have on those types of systems, and what people and voters can pay attention to when it comes to those educational practices?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Particularly with charter schools, the rules are different depending on what state you’re in. And sometimes school boards have a very influential role in whether or not a charter school can exist. And in other cases, the school board may have absolutely no power and no say. And really what happens is the charter decision is made more centrally at the state level by maybe the state board or one of the state entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I also think that there are a lot of interesting implications when you think about this long term. And I’ll give you one case study that happened in New York that I think could be an interesting microcosm of the situation that can happen in other parts of the country if you fast forward 10, 20 years from now and school choice and vouchers become more commonplace. And it’s actually a district that I attended when I was a kid and now is governed by board, the majority of whom send their kids to private school and it’s created an incredibly complex situation where there is a tremendous rift and rift is an understatement between the public school community and the private school community around the way the public district is being managed. On the one hand these are people that pay taxes and they have every right to, you know, run for school board and they’re winning the elections fair and square. On the other hand, you have individuals that are making decisions about a public school system, where many in the public school community argue are not in the best interest of public school students. And so there’s just incredible amounts of tension. And so you can see this being something that could happen in many communities down the road, if we have many, many more students that are not in the public system, and you might have the preponderance of voters that are in the not public system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanted to end on something that maybe is a little bit uplifting and positive and what you hope to see. Who should care about school boards or how should they care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So to end on a positive note, I think that one thing that I would think that all listeners may agree with is that when we look at our national politics, regardless of what side you’re on, I think it is clear that we have more polarization than we’ve ever had in recent history. And I do believe that when we look at local school districts, the reason that everybody should care is because they are a mechanism to potentially reduce polarization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the one hand, I know we see these scenes of people fighting in boardrooms here, like, how could they reduce polarization? It looks like boardrooms are incredibly polarized. But I would contend that they are the one place where people that have differences of opinion actually come together in person. And because everything is transparent and because local community members have a voice at the microphone, people can actually express their view. And if that view is diametrically different, others have to listen. And there is something incredibly American about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think that there’s this healing process in the fact that we can unify around what happens in a school board room, which is that people of all walks of life that have very different political beliefs can come express their view and have to be listened to. And maybe, just maybe we can realize that sometimes people with very opposing views from a policy perspective might be both coming from a good place, it’s just different places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This does seem like a giant lesson in civics. I really appreciate your time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s my pleasure being with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2030 all high schoolers in California will be required to have taken a course in personal finance or financial literacy before they graduate high school. And across the U.S., about two thirds of states have already implemented or will soon implement similar requirements in their public schools. But what happens in the interim when Gen Z and Gen Alpha students might be left to rely on other sources of financial education and literacy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/\">Lillian Zhang\u003c/a>’s new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/book\">The New Money Rules: The Gen Z Guide to Personal Finance,\u003c/a>” offers a reliable and practical source of information for young people thrust into today’s world of finance in the digital age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First of all, it’s important for Gen Z to know that the rules of the game have changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3326217469\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nMarlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Something that I wanted to get into first, why Gen Z’s financial life looks different from previous generations. You say, like very early on in the first chapter of the book, “the rules of the game have changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s something that it’s really difficult for people to understand if they’re not growing up in Gen Z or younger. We’ll lump millennials in there too. So what does that mean that the rules of the games have changed in practical terms for Gen Z and older generations trying to understand today’s financial environment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think a lot of the changes that have happened for Gen Z and millennials, or just a lot of the external factors, look a lot different compared to other generations before. Maybe like 40 years ago, you can live on one income. And now it’s not the case anymore because wages have not increased at the same rate as cost of living has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d say also in terms of technology and how it’s much easier to gain access to information, which is a really positive thing, but also can promote impulsive behaviors or misinformation because of the technology. It’s easier for Gen Z now to make a lot of money, but it’s also the generation that can lose a lot of money the fastest. So all those factors combined contributes to how Gen Z is really facing a different reality from previous generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Money can buy happiness\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>And you kind of say in a soft way that you disagree with the general statement that money doesn’t bring happiness, in quotes. Can you walk me through your stance on seeking security and freedom through personal finance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. Money is such an integrated part of all of our lives whether or not you think about it on a daily basis there was a previous study from a decade and a half ago that states that the average income needed to be quote happy is around 75,000 but a more recent study says that happiness actually caps off closer to 500,000 a year which is surprising but then at same time, not really surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve also questioned this myself in terms of how much money would I need to feel happy and I just think about what are my goals, what are my values like, what do I appreciate spending money on; that’s how I think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really frustrating for young people to hear older generations say, “You don’t need money to be happy. You don’t need all these things to be happy.” And that’s not the reality when you’re talking about really big financial gaps that a lot of people are facing in the U.S these days. So I really appreciated your openness and your stance on this, especially as a young person that other young people can look up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>FOMO and how to stop comparing yourself to others \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Some of what you talk about in the books is about FOMO or the fear of missing out. You’re an online influencer and you found an unusual amount of financial success for someone in their 20s. What would you say to a young person who follows you and feels like they’re. Quote unquote, falling behind and need to keep up with what you’re doing or maybe with another influencer that they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah i’ve also compared myself to other people as well i think no matter what stage you’re at in your career or in your personal life.I always have to tell myself that the only thing that really matters is if you’ve improved from your past self and everyone’s on their own journey just because someone is 10 steps ahead of you doesn’t mean you should be comparing your first step to someone’s 10 steps…that’s sort of how I’ve Um, positioned it in my head. And so everyone’s just on their own journey. Everyone has different circumstances and situations and it’s not apples to apples comparison.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Online safety for digital natives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We hear a lot about how Gen Z and younger generations are, quote unquote, digital natives. But I don’t think we hear enough about how we can still support younger generations in moments when digital spaces are really hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, young people are still young people. They’re still learning how to navigate the world, figure out who they are. What are some of your quick tips for online safety, specifically maybe avoiding um, scams online or using safe platforms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> So yeah, the scams are getting a lot better and something that’s happened to me personally is I would get emails from a PayPal or an Amazon saying like so-and-so was charged on your card. Click now to undo the charge and as usually someone who is pretending to be a company trying to like get to your email address or your personal banking information and that’s something that I think is important to look out for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think we have this idea that older people are the people that are targeted the most for these types of scams, which they are, but I think also young people are very vulnerable, especially if you have that anxiety about your financial health and you might be learning how to implement impulse control. I know that if I was 16 and I got an email like that, I might automatically click on that link, not even thinking about someone trying to scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Oh, yes, that’s definitely true.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial (dis)advantage\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Okay. So let’s talk about finding financial stability as a young adult. That is a huge topic that contains lots of subtopics and can be super intimidating for a young person to even begin to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> One of the things that really popped out to me is that understanding the inequities of the financial playing field can be really helpful. Especially for young people who might be experiencing that FOMO when it comes to spending money. What would you say to these young people who might not understand that the people who look like they have it all in real life or online are most likely greatly advantaged financially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>I see this a lot like you mentioned on social media a lot of people post what they’re wearing where they’re going out to eat where they are vacationing and i think for a lot of young people who are aspiring to that lifestyle it can be really easy to compare yourself to what other people are doing and for a lot of people they worked for it. And for some people, they’re not showing how they’re affording it, whether that’s through debt; through their parent sponsorship. There are many factors in which you don’t know how they are doing something unless they tell you.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding financial stability through internships \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> There’s also a lot of different ways you can go about finding financial stability as a young adult. One of the really great ways that I saw you point out in the book is how internships create a pathway to financial stability, especially for people looking to find a career in the corporate world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about some of the practicalities of finding an internship even when you’re in high school or in the early stages of your post-secondary education? And how that can kind of set you up for some financial success early in your 20s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so my career path has mostly been the internship and then later on my corporate career, which I am a few years in now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I learned about internships when I was a freshman at college, and so I saw internships as a way to get my foot into the door, and I honestly didn’t really think about the financial aspects of internships because… I do think the main purpose of internships is to gain experience so you can land a higher paying role in the industry you want to be in after college, which is where many people see their real earnings come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In terms of resources for finding internships, when I was in school, I relied on a lot of networks like LinkedIn. I rely on Handshake, which is sort of like a LinkedIn for finding opportunities, but they’re specifically created for college students. And so I really appreciate the opportunities that I found through Handshake actually. Sometimes like professors or classes have jobs or opportunities that they’re connected to. Also relying on the peers in your school, perhaps the alumni that you can reach out to. Those are some of the tips that I have found super helpful when I was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Staying motivated\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about motivation. It’s easy to lose motivation, but especially if you feel like you’re never going to reach your financial goals and especially as a young person whose frontal lobe is not fully developed and you’re just starting to think about your personal finances, you’re starting to learn about future planning. What is a strategy that you like to use when you feel yourself losing motivation to keep your personal finance goals in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because especially for a lot of young people, we live in the culture of FOMO as well as YOLO culture. So, doing things without thinking long term or not understanding that there is a path long term. And I think a lot us get stuck in the cycle of, oh, I’m not going to hit my goals next year, therefore it’s gone to waste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we forget to realize that we have a long life ahead of us. And just because we don’t reach our goals next year doesn’t mean that we’re a failure or that we shouldn’t plan for the future and so i think we just need to be more intentional with what do you really want in five years or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m very adamant on tracking a lot of my progress just like month to month not all the time because I think that can be a little stressful but just like knowing where you’re at and seeing like which parts of this process can I control? And what are other parts of the process that are more external factors that I might have to let go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think it’s just understanding your situation and what specific things can you control in the process that will bring you more of that relief around the topic instead of feeling that you don’t have control over that.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The pitfalls of buy-now-pay-later\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Buy now, pay later. This has been a really big topic over the last couple of years, and I feel like that would be a really enticing tool for especially a young person to use, whether or not they have the finances to keep up with it. What are some of the risks and also rewards associated with these types of payment systems like Klarna or Afterpay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I’ve never used a buy now pay later service ever and it’s just something that I personally have a negative stance against because I think it can do something that is very dangerous. In a way it makes debt seem cute and it makes it not feel like a big deal because you’re not technically getting charged interest and the payments look smaller. So I think that’s what entices a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I mentioned in my book too that it’s kind of like the impulsive behavior that once you start doing something it could unlock something in your brain that it would be okay to do the same process or bnpl service for larger purchases even if you can’t afford it I think that’s the biggest pitfall is spiraling into something bigger than what you perhaps intended it to be be for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the most shocking things I’ve seen online about BNPL is that one of bnpl providers was actually on restaurants like Chipotle. “Get your burrito now and pay it later.” Which I think is really, I’m not sure about that, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm, yeah, that does seem like a really slippery slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Investing versus gambling\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanna also ask you about making the distinction between investing and gambling, especially when it comes to things like cryptocurrency and meme stock and sports betting that might blur the lines between investing in gambling behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> When it comes to short-term gambling or investing based on hype it usually involves a high form of luck. It’s not dependent on these specific technicals of how investment would grow over time, it’s more about did you get in at the right time and you get out at the right time. The entry points and the points that you leave is crucial whether or not you lose a lot of money or gain a lot money, and I don’t believe that is the wisest way for most people to build wealth long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when you’re investing in something in the long term, you’re investing in the fundamentals of a company or the economy as a whole. And that has its own guardrails. And studies have shown that if you invest for the long term, over a 20 year period, you’re basically guaranteed to profit off your investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think a lot of people, young people, don’t think about what their life would look like in X many years from now, because a lot of us want that instant gratification, just like when impulse shopping. And a lot of people want to see immediate gains in their money or investment growth. And so we just have to temper our expectations a little.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Meme stock versus meme coin\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>In the book, you tell a story about losing money to a risky investment in a meme coin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I mentioned meme stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain to us the difference between the two?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so the theory behind a meme stock and a meme coin is very similar. In the sense that it’s driven up by hype and there’s no real logic behind this particular asset. And so the difference is a stock is basically a portion of a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So an example like a real stock is like Google, Amazon, Apple, like established public companies, and a meme stock is a stop representing a company that is driven up artificially by media hype, by social hype, with no real logic to why the stock would increase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a normal situation when a stock increases, it’s because perhaps the product did well in sales. Or the earnings report was good, like something tangible behind that And a meme coin is a similar concept also driven by hype and the media except it’s for cryptocurrency. So digital currency that is worth money if you sell it. It’s driven by urgency in hopes that you will also enter in this investment and the people who actually benefit know when it’s gonna top out and they sell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And most people who get into this lose a lot of money because by the time you hear about it on the news the hype is already over but people still enter when the hype is over there’s no logic behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial literacy in high school\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about personal finance classes in high school. As of right now, over 30 states, including California, have some sort of ongoing or newly implemented mandate on personal finance class for high schoolers. How do you feel about personal finance classes and high schools and was it something that was offered to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think it’s really great that California in particular is paying more attention to this subject. When I was in high school, we had classes like microeconomics and learning about the government and learning personal finance would ha ve been so helpful for me leaving high school going to college or entering the real world because if the schools don’t teach you, a lot of times like kids and teenagers, students don’t know what to seek out because you don’t what you don’t know, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think introducing it early is going to be super helpful for students. And I saw that California is mandating a course to every high schooler starting in the 2030 to 31 school year, which is really great, but that’s still five years away. There’s still a long time. A lot of students within that timeframe still won’t get access, wide access, to the education. And so I think there’s still a lot of work to be done, but I’m really glad to see that California is picking this up.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How do you know who to trust online?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We know that most of Gen Z has grown up in a world with at least the internet and then younger Gen Z, obviously, a lot of other digital technologies. And there’s a lot of financial advice online these days. You can find financial advice on any social platform, wherever you look. And we know that Gen Z and younger generations seek out a lot of advice in general through social media. How do you know who to trust, who to follow? Whose advice to apply to your own financial life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Really great question. I say a lot of people including myself are sharing more of their personal finance journey or lessons kind of learned along the way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like to follow a lot people who kind of are in like a similar relatable journey and I kind of learn what worked for someone else and see if I can apply their life lessons to me and that’s kind of how I like to learn and I think a lot of my audience looks up to like my profile in a similar way but we also have more of those industry leaders who actually have credentials who talk more about like advice and what you can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I say every time you see an educational video content or book it doesn’t matter who it’s from you should understand that it’s not like a black and white situation where what they say is the truth. Always use your analytical thinking to decide whether what they said applies to you since everyone’s situation is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And also like to emphasize how there are also a lot of like get rich quick schemes that are promoted on social media and if something seems too good to be true, if someone’s promising profits like tomorrow, if you want to get onto this hype stock or investment next week to make money. If it sounds too good to be true, it’s probably a scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2030 all high schoolers in California will be required to have taken a course in personal finance or financial literacy before they graduate high school. And across the U.S., about two thirds of states have already implemented or will soon implement similar requirements in their public schools. But what happens in the interim when Gen Z and Gen Alpha students might be left to rely on other sources of financial education and literacy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/\">Lillian Zhang\u003c/a>’s new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/book\">The New Money Rules: The Gen Z Guide to Personal Finance,\u003c/a>” offers a reliable and practical source of information for young people thrust into today’s world of finance in the digital age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First of all, it’s important for Gen Z to know that the rules of the game have changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3326217469\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nMarlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Something that I wanted to get into first, why Gen Z’s financial life looks different from previous generations. You say, like very early on in the first chapter of the book, “the rules of the game have changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s something that it’s really difficult for people to understand if they’re not growing up in Gen Z or younger. We’ll lump millennials in there too. So what does that mean that the rules of the games have changed in practical terms for Gen Z and older generations trying to understand today’s financial environment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think a lot of the changes that have happened for Gen Z and millennials, or just a lot of the external factors, look a lot different compared to other generations before. Maybe like 40 years ago, you can live on one income. And now it’s not the case anymore because wages have not increased at the same rate as cost of living has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d say also in terms of technology and how it’s much easier to gain access to information, which is a really positive thing, but also can promote impulsive behaviors or misinformation because of the technology. It’s easier for Gen Z now to make a lot of money, but it’s also the generation that can lose a lot of money the fastest. So all those factors combined contributes to how Gen Z is really facing a different reality from previous generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Money can buy happiness\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>And you kind of say in a soft way that you disagree with the general statement that money doesn’t bring happiness, in quotes. Can you walk me through your stance on seeking security and freedom through personal finance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. Money is such an integrated part of all of our lives whether or not you think about it on a daily basis there was a previous study from a decade and a half ago that states that the average income needed to be quote happy is around 75,000 but a more recent study says that happiness actually caps off closer to 500,000 a year which is surprising but then at same time, not really surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve also questioned this myself in terms of how much money would I need to feel happy and I just think about what are my goals, what are my values like, what do I appreciate spending money on; that’s how I think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really frustrating for young people to hear older generations say, “You don’t need money to be happy. You don’t need all these things to be happy.” And that’s not the reality when you’re talking about really big financial gaps that a lot of people are facing in the U.S these days. So I really appreciated your openness and your stance on this, especially as a young person that other young people can look up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>FOMO and how to stop comparing yourself to others \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Some of what you talk about in the books is about FOMO or the fear of missing out. You’re an online influencer and you found an unusual amount of financial success for someone in their 20s. What would you say to a young person who follows you and feels like they’re. Quote unquote, falling behind and need to keep up with what you’re doing or maybe with another influencer that they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah i’ve also compared myself to other people as well i think no matter what stage you’re at in your career or in your personal life.I always have to tell myself that the only thing that really matters is if you’ve improved from your past self and everyone’s on their own journey just because someone is 10 steps ahead of you doesn’t mean you should be comparing your first step to someone’s 10 steps…that’s sort of how I’ve Um, positioned it in my head. And so everyone’s just on their own journey. Everyone has different circumstances and situations and it’s not apples to apples comparison.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Online safety for digital natives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We hear a lot about how Gen Z and younger generations are, quote unquote, digital natives. But I don’t think we hear enough about how we can still support younger generations in moments when digital spaces are really hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, young people are still young people. They’re still learning how to navigate the world, figure out who they are. What are some of your quick tips for online safety, specifically maybe avoiding um, scams online or using safe platforms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> So yeah, the scams are getting a lot better and something that’s happened to me personally is I would get emails from a PayPal or an Amazon saying like so-and-so was charged on your card. Click now to undo the charge and as usually someone who is pretending to be a company trying to like get to your email address or your personal banking information and that’s something that I think is important to look out for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think we have this idea that older people are the people that are targeted the most for these types of scams, which they are, but I think also young people are very vulnerable, especially if you have that anxiety about your financial health and you might be learning how to implement impulse control. I know that if I was 16 and I got an email like that, I might automatically click on that link, not even thinking about someone trying to scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Oh, yes, that’s definitely true.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial (dis)advantage\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Okay. So let’s talk about finding financial stability as a young adult. That is a huge topic that contains lots of subtopics and can be super intimidating for a young person to even begin to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> One of the things that really popped out to me is that understanding the inequities of the financial playing field can be really helpful. Especially for young people who might be experiencing that FOMO when it comes to spending money. What would you say to these young people who might not understand that the people who look like they have it all in real life or online are most likely greatly advantaged financially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>I see this a lot like you mentioned on social media a lot of people post what they’re wearing where they’re going out to eat where they are vacationing and i think for a lot of young people who are aspiring to that lifestyle it can be really easy to compare yourself to what other people are doing and for a lot of people they worked for it. And for some people, they’re not showing how they’re affording it, whether that’s through debt; through their parent sponsorship. There are many factors in which you don’t know how they are doing something unless they tell you.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding financial stability through internships \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> There’s also a lot of different ways you can go about finding financial stability as a young adult. One of the really great ways that I saw you point out in the book is how internships create a pathway to financial stability, especially for people looking to find a career in the corporate world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about some of the practicalities of finding an internship even when you’re in high school or in the early stages of your post-secondary education? And how that can kind of set you up for some financial success early in your 20s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so my career path has mostly been the internship and then later on my corporate career, which I am a few years in now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I learned about internships when I was a freshman at college, and so I saw internships as a way to get my foot into the door, and I honestly didn’t really think about the financial aspects of internships because… I do think the main purpose of internships is to gain experience so you can land a higher paying role in the industry you want to be in after college, which is where many people see their real earnings come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In terms of resources for finding internships, when I was in school, I relied on a lot of networks like LinkedIn. I rely on Handshake, which is sort of like a LinkedIn for finding opportunities, but they’re specifically created for college students. And so I really appreciate the opportunities that I found through Handshake actually. Sometimes like professors or classes have jobs or opportunities that they’re connected to. Also relying on the peers in your school, perhaps the alumni that you can reach out to. Those are some of the tips that I have found super helpful when I was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Staying motivated\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about motivation. It’s easy to lose motivation, but especially if you feel like you’re never going to reach your financial goals and especially as a young person whose frontal lobe is not fully developed and you’re just starting to think about your personal finances, you’re starting to learn about future planning. What is a strategy that you like to use when you feel yourself losing motivation to keep your personal finance goals in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because especially for a lot of young people, we live in the culture of FOMO as well as YOLO culture. So, doing things without thinking long term or not understanding that there is a path long term. And I think a lot us get stuck in the cycle of, oh, I’m not going to hit my goals next year, therefore it’s gone to waste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we forget to realize that we have a long life ahead of us. And just because we don’t reach our goals next year doesn’t mean that we’re a failure or that we shouldn’t plan for the future and so i think we just need to be more intentional with what do you really want in five years or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m very adamant on tracking a lot of my progress just like month to month not all the time because I think that can be a little stressful but just like knowing where you’re at and seeing like which parts of this process can I control? And what are other parts of the process that are more external factors that I might have to let go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think it’s just understanding your situation and what specific things can you control in the process that will bring you more of that relief around the topic instead of feeling that you don’t have control over that.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The pitfalls of buy-now-pay-later\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Buy now, pay later. This has been a really big topic over the last couple of years, and I feel like that would be a really enticing tool for especially a young person to use, whether or not they have the finances to keep up with it. What are some of the risks and also rewards associated with these types of payment systems like Klarna or Afterpay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I’ve never used a buy now pay later service ever and it’s just something that I personally have a negative stance against because I think it can do something that is very dangerous. In a way it makes debt seem cute and it makes it not feel like a big deal because you’re not technically getting charged interest and the payments look smaller. So I think that’s what entices a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I mentioned in my book too that it’s kind of like the impulsive behavior that once you start doing something it could unlock something in your brain that it would be okay to do the same process or bnpl service for larger purchases even if you can’t afford it I think that’s the biggest pitfall is spiraling into something bigger than what you perhaps intended it to be be for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the most shocking things I’ve seen online about BNPL is that one of bnpl providers was actually on restaurants like Chipotle. “Get your burrito now and pay it later.” Which I think is really, I’m not sure about that, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm, yeah, that does seem like a really slippery slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Investing versus gambling\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanna also ask you about making the distinction between investing and gambling, especially when it comes to things like cryptocurrency and meme stock and sports betting that might blur the lines between investing in gambling behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> When it comes to short-term gambling or investing based on hype it usually involves a high form of luck. It’s not dependent on these specific technicals of how investment would grow over time, it’s more about did you get in at the right time and you get out at the right time. The entry points and the points that you leave is crucial whether or not you lose a lot of money or gain a lot money, and I don’t believe that is the wisest way for most people to build wealth long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when you’re investing in something in the long term, you’re investing in the fundamentals of a company or the economy as a whole. And that has its own guardrails. And studies have shown that if you invest for the long term, over a 20 year period, you’re basically guaranteed to profit off your investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think a lot of people, young people, don’t think about what their life would look like in X many years from now, because a lot of us want that instant gratification, just like when impulse shopping. And a lot of people want to see immediate gains in their money or investment growth. And so we just have to temper our expectations a little.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Meme stock versus meme coin\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>In the book, you tell a story about losing money to a risky investment in a meme coin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I mentioned meme stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain to us the difference between the two?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so the theory behind a meme stock and a meme coin is very similar. In the sense that it’s driven up by hype and there’s no real logic behind this particular asset. And so the difference is a stock is basically a portion of a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So an example like a real stock is like Google, Amazon, Apple, like established public companies, and a meme stock is a stop representing a company that is driven up artificially by media hype, by social hype, with no real logic to why the stock would increase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a normal situation when a stock increases, it’s because perhaps the product did well in sales. Or the earnings report was good, like something tangible behind that And a meme coin is a similar concept also driven by hype and the media except it’s for cryptocurrency. So digital currency that is worth money if you sell it. It’s driven by urgency in hopes that you will also enter in this investment and the people who actually benefit know when it’s gonna top out and they sell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And most people who get into this lose a lot of money because by the time you hear about it on the news the hype is already over but people still enter when the hype is over there’s no logic behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial literacy in high school\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about personal finance classes in high school. As of right now, over 30 states, including California, have some sort of ongoing or newly implemented mandate on personal finance class for high schoolers. How do you feel about personal finance classes and high schools and was it something that was offered to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think it’s really great that California in particular is paying more attention to this subject. When I was in high school, we had classes like microeconomics and learning about the government and learning personal finance would ha ve been so helpful for me leaving high school going to college or entering the real world because if the schools don’t teach you, a lot of times like kids and teenagers, students don’t know what to seek out because you don’t what you don’t know, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think introducing it early is going to be super helpful for students. And I saw that California is mandating a course to every high schooler starting in the 2030 to 31 school year, which is really great, but that’s still five years away. There’s still a long time. A lot of students within that timeframe still won’t get access, wide access, to the education. And so I think there’s still a lot of work to be done, but I’m really glad to see that California is picking this up.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How do you know who to trust online?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We know that most of Gen Z has grown up in a world with at least the internet and then younger Gen Z, obviously, a lot of other digital technologies. And there’s a lot of financial advice online these days. You can find financial advice on any social platform, wherever you look. And we know that Gen Z and younger generations seek out a lot of advice in general through social media. How do you know who to trust, who to follow? Whose advice to apply to your own financial life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Really great question. I say a lot of people including myself are sharing more of their personal finance journey or lessons kind of learned along the way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like to follow a lot people who kind of are in like a similar relatable journey and I kind of learn what worked for someone else and see if I can apply their life lessons to me and that’s kind of how I like to learn and I think a lot of my audience looks up to like my profile in a similar way but we also have more of those industry leaders who actually have credentials who talk more about like advice and what you can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I say every time you see an educational video content or book it doesn’t matter who it’s from you should understand that it’s not like a black and white situation where what they say is the truth. Always use your analytical thinking to decide whether what they said applies to you since everyone’s situation is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And also like to emphasize how there are also a lot of like get rich quick schemes that are promoted on social media and if something seems too good to be true, if someone’s promising profits like tomorrow, if you want to get onto this hype stock or investment next week to make money. If it sounds too good to be true, it’s probably a scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This month MindShift is sharing an episode from MITs TeachLab podcast. Hosts Jessie Dukes and Justin Reich have interviewed teachers, school leaders and students about how the debut of ChatGPT and Generative AI is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve compiled their learnings into a mini series called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">Homework Machine\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3473844164\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey MindShift listeners, It’s Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ve got a special episode to share with you. It’s from our friends at Teach Lab, a podcast about the art and craft of teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their mini series, called The Homework Machine, hosts Jesse Dukes and Justin Reich explore the reactions to AI when it first debuted as a strange new technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll let our friends from Teach Lab take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> This is the Teach Lab podcast, I’m Justin Reich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And I’m Jesse Dukes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Devon O’Neil is a high school social studies teacher in Oregon. Back in 2021, after six years of teaching, she took 2 years off while her husband attended grad school. At MIT actually. And during her break from teaching, she worked designing classroom curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Which is a super cool experience, very different from being in the classroom, and also really reinforced that I wanted to be in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> When she was on her break, O’Neil missed two momentous years for schools. There was a pandemic, remote learning, hybrid learning, returning to school buildings. And when she went back to the classroom, in the fall of 2023, she said, there was some culture shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> It was those two, like super crazy post-Covid years. So I come back, and it’s like, like those movies where the caveman, like defrost or whatever. And they’re like “what is this?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t just that her fellow teachers were harrowed and burned out, while she was fresh and energetic. She also noticed that the student work was, well, different from what she remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> I’d have these really well written paragraphs or snippets that are looked to be very well researched and all this, but not at all on topic. Grammar was off. Even the most brilliant 14-year-old still talks like a 14-year-old and still writes like a 14-year-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, the grammar was oddly good. O’Neil can see her students’ screens, and she sometimes watches them work. And, one day, she noticed they were using an unusual search engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Bing! I was noticing a lot of them were using Bing. To Google stuff, see even to Google stuff. And I was like, that’s the weirdest choice. Who uses Bing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And then, one day, she was watching a student complete a writing assignment in a google doc. And poof, a whole well-written paragraph just appeared. Out of nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Like one minute it’s not there, and one minute it’s there. And, it said like “here are your results”. And they forgot to delete that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And that’s when Devon realized her students were using ChatGPT to complete in class writing assignments. They would copy and paste the questions she would give them into Bing’s Copilot, which was a free way to use ChatGPT. Then, the students copied the answer, sometimes without any editing, right into their google document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil: \u003c/strong>Which is kind of a rookie mistake, like if they’re going to cheat, you want them to cheat a little better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> We first talked to Devon in 2023, just a few weeks after she figured out what was going on. She says that since then, she’s gotten a lot more savvy about ChatGPT. But her experience speaks to how much can, and did, change in schools, in just a couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> In November of 2022, ChatGPT was launched as a free research preview of advanced generative AI, like a pilot, or beta version. Generative AI is a type of artificial intelligence that can create new content, especially text, but also images, videos, and music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ChatGPT is the most famous example of generative AI. There are competitors like Google’s Gemini, Anthropic’s Claude, and the Chinese company, DeepSeek. And rather quickly, students figured out, ChatGPT was pretty good at doing their homework for them. Devon, out of school for two years, working on curriculum, had missed the arrival of the new homework machine. But her students had not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> The arrival of chatGPT, and then fairly quick upgrades with GPT-3.5 and GPT-4 within a couple of years, has been the big story in education technology since the fall of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Waterfall of news stories]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 1: \u003c/strong>So how does it work? Students can drop an assignment into something like ChatGPT, click a button and their homework is done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 2: \u003c/strong>She is talking about ChatGPT. School districts like New York cities are banning it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 3: \u003c/strong>ChatGPT is the new artificial intelligence tool causing a stir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools have scrambled to figure out what to do about ChatGPT. Ban it? Embrace it? Teachers have scrambled to try to get ahead of the “cheating” problem, and to find ways in which AI can support education. Some Students have scrambled to figure out how to use AI without their teachers detecting it. And education technology companies have scrambled to create AI powered ed tech. And have made many promises about how generative AI will transform education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan:\u003c/strong> But I think we’re at the cusp of using AI for probably the biggest positive transformation that education has ever seen, and the way we’re going to do that is by giving every student on the planet an artificially intelligent but amazing personal tutor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My career has been devoted to studying education technology. Over and over again, we’ve seen new technologies emerge in education, and the technology developers will promise, every time, that the new tech will transform and democratize education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan :\u003c/strong>That’s what’s about to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And while the technologies do sometimes help teachers and students, those big transformations to schools, they never happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> But there is something different about Chat GPT and other AI. Throughout history, most education technology has been adopted by schools, who hope it will help them do better work, teaching students. But Generative AI wasn’t invited into schools. Not for the most part. It crashed the party. Even if schools ban it from school laptops, students can often get around that ban, by using Bing, for example. Or they have their own laptop. Or they can access it on their mobile phone, which over 95% of teenagers have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, the kids have access to generative AI. And they’re using it, whether their teachers want them to, or not. That’s having a big impact on schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a little about me, and this project. I am a journalist, and for the past year and a half, I’ve been working with Justin and other colleagues at MIT’s Teaching Systems Lab. We’ve interviewed over 85 teachers and school leaders, and over 35 students about how all of this is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been hearing about why students cheat using AI, what teachers are doing to stop them, and how some teachers and students have found ChatGPT to be helpful for learning. And for the next several weeks, we’re going to share what we’ve learned with you in a mini series we’re calling the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And now, Jesse, who has immersed himself in this research, will be our host and guide for these episodes. Jesse, you can take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Thanks Justin, but not so fast. We’re going to want your historical knowledge about educational technology to help us unpack and contextualize these stories. So stay close, and keep your mic handy. In fact, we’re going to hear from you again in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Sounds good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Alright, well, let’s go back to A beginning: December of 2022. We’ll start with Steve Ouellette. He’s a technology director at the Westwood School district, southwest of Boston. His job includes keeping track of computers and software for the district, but also helping teachers think through how to use technology in their work. He remembers the exact moment he heard about generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> So I think it was, it was December 8th. And I was home sick with Covid. I got an email, I’m on a listserv, you know, with all the tech directors in Massachusetts and I got an email that said: Have AI write your next English paper. The sub caption was: Buckle up, here it comes. And someone had basically shared a video of this thing called ChatGPT, that was generating an essay about, I think it was about Raisin in the Sun. And I was like “What is going on here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Watching the video, Ouellette says he immediately realized that this was a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was, that was a moment. You know, I’ve been in this business since 1993 and I don’t remember having like, a really specific, like, reaction to something the way I did when I saw that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Ouellette emailed the district’s superintendent, and explained the situation to her. There was a new technological tool, available to students, that could do their schoolwork. Pretty effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> And she had no idea what it was. And I explained to her what it was and sent her a link and she shot back to me five minutes later and she’s like, yeah, we need to write about this. And so we, we felt, we both felt this sense of like, urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> The superintendent asked Ouellette to write a memo to the district’s teachers. Ouellette is a technology guy, and out of curiosity and excitement, he decided to experiment. Could ChatGPT draft the memo? He asked ChatGPT to write the first draft and sent it to the superintendent. She read it and told Ouellette, this is pretty formal language, it doesn’t sound like you. Make it more casual sounding. But Ouellette didn’t rewrite the memo himself. He prompted ChatGPT to revise the memo. And he told it: “Make it more conversational.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> I said, you need to write something funny about how, you know France was gonna win the World Cup. And it like, seamlessly incorporated a little like parenthetical thing about, oh by the way, France is gonna win the World Cup. And in the way it did, it was like magnificent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Here’s the memo ChatGPT wrote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ChatGPT: \u003c/strong> ChatGPT could also be used to help students learn other languages, such as Spanish or French (which, by the way, I think will win the 2022 World Cup). Imagine being able to have a conversation with ChatGPT in French and receiving instant corrections and feedback on your pronunciation and grammar. The possibilities are truly endless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Side note, I’m not that impressed with how ChatGPT did with that World Cup joke. It says that “French” will win the world cup, not “France”. But, that aside, they sent the memo out that Monday. Remember, this was December of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next few months, Ouellette formed an AI working group in the district. They brought in a guest speaker. They looked at academic policies. They talked to teachers and students. And by the summer of 2023, they had revised academic integrity guidelines as well as some basic training for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> The goal was to inform staff about what this stuff is, to let them know that there are guidelines, and that if they have students, you know, in grades eight or higher, they can use it with their students. But we also wanted to inform staff how to use it for themselves to make their own work more efficient. The theory behind that is if they’re using it, then they’ll be more informed to use it responsibly with their kids. And it’s nowhere near where what it needs to be. I’ll be the first to admit it, but we did something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> What Westwood did was quite a bit more than most districts. Last fall, a survey found only about one quarter of teachers said their school district had provided any guidance or professional development, about AI. That’s two years after the arrival of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Westwood, the faculty learned about ChatGPT pretty early on. Likely before many of their students heard about it. That was NOT true for other schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> The First Time I heard about ChatGPT was in my English Class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>This is Nanki Kaur. She just graduated from American High School, in Fremont, California. And she heard about ChatGPT from another student back in the spring of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> We were having a conversation about how we were going to approach our research paper assignment that was coming up, and you would have to pick an individual of American significance and prove why they were of American significance and what impact they had. And he was talking about how he just asked this AI platform about how his person of American Significance who was BLEEP, had an impact on America and he got a really strong thesis statement. And he said, I didn’t even have to do anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Now, I bleeped that last bit so this student won’t get in trouble.But the point here, Nanki says the thesis statement was actually pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> And we were all confused and we were like, what are you talking about? Like how did you not have to do anything and how do you have such a strong thesis statement? ’cause we were just learning how to write a thesis statement at that time. And he said, there’s this online platform, it’s driven by artificial intelligence and it just writes it for you and it’s, it’s really thorough.It’s really good. You guys should try it. And so that was the first time I heard about it and I was shocked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Nanki talked with our colleague Holly McDede, a reporter based in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Did you try it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I did go home and try it. Not for the same assignment, but I went home and I looked it up like Chat GPT, OpenAI, what is it? And then I asked it a couple questions like what is the weather like, and if I were to write a story about a certain situation,could you write me a story? And it actually answered all my prompts and it wrote me like a solid paragraph, and so I was shocked. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Nanki says she doesn’t know what the other student did with his thesis statement, but she has a guess:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I think he did turn it in and I don’t know what kind of disciplinary action he got because there wasn’t really much set in stone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Do you suspect he didn’t get any disciplinary action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I do suspect that because he was oddly smug about how well he had done on that assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> As far as Nanki knows, that student didn’t get in any trouble. In fact, she’s not sure the teachers knew about ChatGPT at that point. And Nanki says that the school didn’t seem to catch on that students were using ChatGPT to cheat until the fall of 2023, the next school year. A whole year after ChatGPT launched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nanki says when they did realize what was happening, the school came down hard. Nanki’s AP English teacher held a special class meeting to present the new academic integrity policy, with a list of sanctions if students were caught using Chat GPT or other AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Which included, zeros on the assignments or administrative disciplinary action. And if worse comes to worst, then it would be, suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> At American High School Nanki says their policies didn’t just ban ChatGPT. Students were also told they couldn’t use Grammarly, the grammar check program, or similar AI tools that are often built into students’ browsers. But, the policies weren’t applied consistently. Nanki says her social studies teacher actually encouraged her to use AI for research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Because she said, I think it’s a really good tool to get all the facts in one spot. Obviously, I’m gonna ask you guys to fact check and cross check, make sure that everything is correct. But I think it’s a really great, you know, tool for you guys to use so that you have everything in one place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Was that confusing for you or other students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> It was confusing for me, personally because I was like, I just don’t want to use it at all. Like I don’t even care because I don’t need like this habit. I don’t want it on my computer. I don’t want it anywhere, like I just want it like away from me because I didn’t want to jeopardize any chance of having a good grade in that class or in any of my classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Some 3000 miles away from Nanki, another student had quite a different experience. Woody Goss was wrapping up 8th grade in a public school in the suburbs north of New York city when he spoke to us in the spring of 2024. He says his teachers didn’t really respond to the arrival of ChatGPT. And, that students used AI to get their schoolwork done in almost all of his classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says his science class was the worst. The students all have laptops, but the teacher sits in front of the class, and can’t see what’s on the screens. Woody sits in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> And you can see everybody’s screen and you can see ChatGPT spitting out the text, and you can see them copy and pasting it into their paper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> You could literally see your fellow students using ChatGPT…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss: \u003c/strong> And copying and pasting it, yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> If you could estimate how many people in a classroom of 20 students, how many were using it to cheat in the way you’re describing. How many would you say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> So I’d say that there’s 10 people in that class using it for everything like cheating on, the whole paper is AI, I’d say there’s another 5 that probably half of it’s written by AI, but they do actually read it through and go, “Gee, maybe I don’t wanna include the part that says ‘As a large language model…’” but they like read it through and copy parts and splice bits and do whatever. Then I’d say of, so you’ve got five remaining. I’d say probably 4 of that 5 do the paper legitimately. So there’s 4 people doing it legitimately, and then there’s another one that’s going, and I don’t know, they, it’s kind of a mix, like they plagiarized stuff, but it’s like a paragraph in their entire thing. And I would say, of those 4, I mean, unless you’ve got a really, not a super smart tech kid, I’d say probably all four of those are using AI in some way. It’s just using it appropriately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Woody says that some of his teachers were apparently totally oblivious to generative AI. But not his science teacher. She tried to encourage students to use it in a way that would help them learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> That teacher was really trying, she seemed to grasp the concept that there was AI being used, and she was like, we’re gonna learn how to use AI, legitimately and like how do we use it in our research? And everybody heard, oh, you can use AI in your paper. And they all didn’t actually listen to what she was saying. Please use it as like a secondary source. And they all went, “okay, I’m gonna use ChatGPT to write my paper. “\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Um, do you have any teachers who effectively managed this? You know, either in their…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> No, I have the science teacher really tried. She really, she did actually provide, unlike all the other teachers, she actually provided instruction like, Hey, here’s how we’re gonna use it. Everybody ignored it, but she did try, right? All my other teachers just flat out ignored it the whole year. Um, except for the ELA teacher who said, we’re all writing paper benchmarks, which was a nightmare. That was just…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Why, why was that a nightmare?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> Because I’d say for a lot of us, not, not even including AI, we’re all digital people on Chromebooks. We don’t, we don’t know how to write a paper benchmark, which you could argue is its own problem. But then you had a million kids yelling and screaming about that, because god forbid you have to write a paper benchmark. Eww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, according to Woody, his English teacher made the students write things out by hand, which actually did keep people from using ChatGPT. Although Woody thinks that created other problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people have suggested that Woody doesn’t need to worry. According to him he’s doing his work legitimately. Assuming that’s true, and that the other students are using ChatGPT, then it’ll all come out in the wash. He’ll actually learn what he’s supposed to, and the others won’t, and eventually, that will be obvious, and give him an advantage. Maybe in getting into college, maybe on tests, maybe in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Woody doesn’t see it that way. In his world. Grades matter. Students are under pressure. When students choose to cheat, that can impact how the teachers teach the material. And the pace of learning, which puts even more pressure on the students who are trying to do the work themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s frustrating. It’s a compounding effect. I’d say at the beginning of the year, there weren’t a lot of students using AI, and I’d say it’s shifted as the pacing gets faster, then more kids feel like they need it ’cause they feel like they’re gonna fail if they don’t have it. So it piles on itself, and it also, I was never the fast worker in the class. I can do the work, but I’m like dyslexic anyway, so it takes me forever to do the work anyway. I’d say the number of people not using it, like the number of people holding out and being like, “I’m gonna do my work legitimately” is going down because it’s just, there’s no room for, especially in the district where I am, where a lot of, we’re very grade grubby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s expected, like you gotta have an A in every class. So everybody is, “I gotta get that A, I gotta get this assignment in on time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> All right. I’d like to bring Justin Reich back to the program. Justin has studied technology in schools over the decades, and he can help us make sense of the stories we just heard. Welcome back Justin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me, Jesse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So the interviews that I shared took place over a year ago, and we’re now coming up on 3 years since ChatGPT was unveiled in November of 2022. So I’m curious what overall reactions you’re having as you listen back to these stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, the first thing it makes me think of is something that we’ve talked about before, which is just this idea of instantaneous arrival is so unusual for an education technology. I mean, the joke we make sometimes is that, you know, “no kid ever dragged their own smart board into a classroom”. Typically education technology was purchased by schools, and that meant the schools could have at least something of a plan before they gave all their teachers online grade books, or they bought all their kids’ Chromebooks, or they bought all their kids’ iPads, or whatever else it is. But there is zero time for planning. There’s zero time for preparation. You know, Steve Ouellette says, “This is urgent”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just, there’s something which is happening right now and we need to deal with it. And then schools have really different capacities to deal with that. So an affluent place like Westwood, where they probably have recovered pretty well from the pandemic where things are feeling like they’re back on track, they probably have plenty of resources to hire substitute teachers, you know, the population of kids they serve have all kinds of challenges, but not nearly, the challenges they might encounter in some of their urban neighborhoods nearby or rural neighborhoods out west. They’re in a good place to be able to say, “Oh, we’ve, I’ve got some extra time to be able to manage this. Like, let’s get started.” Let’s, you know, teachers have extra time to be on the working group, “Let’s get started working on this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For, at other places, many, many schools in November 2022, in the spring of 2023, were still drowning in the challenges of chronic absenteeism of learning, loss of school that felt like it really hadn’t bounced back yet. And so this new thing shows up, and not every school in the country is on the same footing in figuring out how to deal with it. But of course, even if a school doesn’t have an institutional plan to deal with it, every teacher has to deal with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Ms O’Neill walks into her classroom and all of her students are using Bing. And she goes, well, you know, Bing! Bing is the web browser that you use to download Google Chrome, so you can never have to use Bing again. Why are all my students using Bing on a Chromebook? Like none of this makes sense. And what a great story, to remind us how significantly and quickly things changed and how there was no choice to postpone this. There was no way to say, ah, “ we’ll just buy, maybe we’ll buy the smart boards, but we’ll buy them next year, or we’ll buy them two years after that. Let’s just work on other stuff for now.” You, as an educator, had this in your classroom and had to decide what you were gonna do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Well, speaking of no option to postpone, I wanna play you something that Sam Altman said about all of this back in 2023. You know that Sam Altman was one of the founders of OpenAI, the company responsible for ChatGPT. And he’s the CEO. You may remember he was actually ousted from the company briefly and then reinstated in an episode they’re now calling the blip, and one thing he’s gotten some criticism for is just releasing new versions of ChatGPT out into the world, arguably without a lot of thought about what impact that might have or without a lot of support for institutions like schools that might be impacted by AI. And in 2023, the hosts of the New York Times podcast, Hard Fork asked him about that. And here’s what he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman:\u003c/strong> You know, one example that I mean is instructive because it was the first and the loudest is what happened with ChatGPT and education. Days, at least weeks. But I think days after the release of ChatGPT school districts were like falling all over themselves to ban ChatGPT. And that didn’t really surprise us, like that we could have predicted and did predict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The thing that happened after that quickly was, you know, like weeks to months, was school districts and teachers saying, Hey, actually we made a mistake and this is really important part of the future of education and the benefits far outweigh the downside. And not only are we banning it, we’re encouraging our teachers to make use of it in the classroom. We’re encouraging our students to get really good at this tool because it’s gonna be part of the way people live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, you know, then there was like a big discussion about what, what the kind of path forward should be. And that is just not something that could have happened without releasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>So Justin, you were paying pretty close attention in 2022 and 2023 when ChatGPT was first unleashed upon schools. Do you think Altman’s account is historically accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I actually got to hear Sam Altman give some version of this because he came to MIT, not long after November, 2022, gave a talk that was facilitated by Sally Kornbluth, our president. And he said something along the lines, I think the question was something like, you know, where are there big wins for ChatGPT? And he was like, well, education’s a slam dunk. This is a place where very obviously, we’re seeing benefits, not really seeing any downsides. Things are just immediately improving society. So this is gonna be a fast win for us. And yeah, you know, it’s, it’s delusional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not at all connected to what is actually happening in reality in schools. I’m sure some of it is, if I built a technology product, I’d be pretty excited to hear the voices of people who are happy with it. You know, people in powerful places don’t always have great sources of information about what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes : \u003c/strong>And, and everything he says has a kind of factual basis to it, but it adds up to a kind of orderly picture of what happens, that to me doesn’t really reflect the chaos that educators were experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Also, if you just know something about schools, this idea that, like, “as soon as it was released they were all doing something”, it’s like, no, that’s not how schools work. And then “really quickly after doing it, they reverse themselves” and you’re like, no, you do not under- like, schools are carrier fleets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools are super tankers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Schools are super tankers. Like when they turn, they turn slowly and they turn with inertia. And when they go back it takes a lot of time to move that backwards, but even just in the handful of stories that we heard,we heard from a couple of students, one teacher who said there was nothing happening in their schools. It wasn’t being banned, it wasn’t being encouraged. Teachers were kind of figuring out on their own what to do with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I mean, if you talk to teachers and students, it’s not very hard to get stories where you get the sense of like, oh, this is not an unambiguously good thing. Like this is making Nanki nervous because pretty clearly students are using this to bypass their learning in ways that they shouldn’t. Woody is really concerned that his classes are moving faster than they’re supposed to because teachers are getting the wrong feedback. From students because students, instead of doing the work and doing the learning and figuring things out, are just copying, pasting questions from ChatGPT into their assignments and this, and Woody is trying to, is telling us he’s trying to do the right thing and this isn’t working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And even Steve, who’s in like the best possible circumstances, a really experienced, really talented tech director with a really supportive superintendent, really supportive community, cool things happening in their schools. As much good work as he’s doing, I think he still feels like, that he’s just barely taking the first steps that might be needed to get his hands wrapped around this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and in fact, I actually played that Sam Altman tape for him and you know, he, and arguably what Sam Altman describes most closely resembles Westwood and Steve Ouellette, like of all the people we heard from, his story is the closest to Sam Altman’s account of what happened. But this, this is what he had to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette: \u003c/strong>Not to highlight Westwood, but when I talk to my peers in neighboring districts, no one’s doing anything. Like they’re just starting to create, think about creating guidelines. And so, we’re kind of just like building the plane, you know, while we fly it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> For the next 6 episodes, we’re going to hear stories of building the plane as we fly it. We’ll hear from the teachers who are struggling to prevent their students from using ChatGPT to bypass learning and thinking; We’ll talk with students about why they turn to AI to get their work done, and what it feels like to be falsely accused of using AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’ll hear from teachers, students, and school leaders who have found ways to use AI to help them teach or learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in our next episode, what even is generative AI? And why does the so-called “jagged frontier” of this technology make it so challenging when it shows up in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It doesn’t think, it doesn’t understand, it predicts one word at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>That’s next time on the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by me, Jesse Dukes. We had editing from Ruxandra Guidi and Alexandra Salomon. Reporting and research from Holly McDede, Natasha Esteves, Andrew Meriwether, and Chris Bagg. Sound design and music supervision by Steven Jackson. Production support from Yebu Ji. Data analysis from Manee Ngozi Nnamani and Manasa Kudumu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Josh Sheldon, Camila Lee, Liz Hutner, and Eric Klopfer. Administrative support from Jessica Rondon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The research and reporting you heard in this episode was supported by the Spencer Foundation, the Kapor Foundation, the Jameel World Education Lab, the Social and Ethical Responsibility of Computing Initiative at MIT, and the RAISE initiative, Responsible AI for Social Empowerment and Education also at MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, we had support from Google’s Academic Research Awards program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Homework Machine is a production of the Teaching Systems Lab, Justin Reich Director, the lab is located at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, more commonly known to the world as MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://teachlabpodcast.com/\">teachlabpodcast.com\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://tsl.mit.edu/AI\">tsl.mit.edu/AI\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>That was The Homework Machine from MIT’s Teachlab podcast.\u003cbr>\nYou can find the whole series wherever you get your podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next month with a brand new episode of Mindshift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This month MindShift is sharing an episode from MITs TeachLab podcast. Hosts Jessie Dukes and Justin Reich have interviewed teachers, school leaders and students about how the debut of ChatGPT and Generative AI is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve compiled their learnings into a mini series called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">Homework Machine\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3473844164\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey MindShift listeners, It’s Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ve got a special episode to share with you. It’s from our friends at Teach Lab, a podcast about the art and craft of teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their mini series, called The Homework Machine, hosts Jesse Dukes and Justin Reich explore the reactions to AI when it first debuted as a strange new technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll let our friends from Teach Lab take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> This is the Teach Lab podcast, I’m Justin Reich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And I’m Jesse Dukes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Devon O’Neil is a high school social studies teacher in Oregon. Back in 2021, after six years of teaching, she took 2 years off while her husband attended grad school. At MIT actually. And during her break from teaching, she worked designing classroom curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Which is a super cool experience, very different from being in the classroom, and also really reinforced that I wanted to be in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> When she was on her break, O’Neil missed two momentous years for schools. There was a pandemic, remote learning, hybrid learning, returning to school buildings. And when she went back to the classroom, in the fall of 2023, she said, there was some culture shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> It was those two, like super crazy post-Covid years. So I come back, and it’s like, like those movies where the caveman, like defrost or whatever. And they’re like “what is this?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t just that her fellow teachers were harrowed and burned out, while she was fresh and energetic. She also noticed that the student work was, well, different from what she remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> I’d have these really well written paragraphs or snippets that are looked to be very well researched and all this, but not at all on topic. Grammar was off. Even the most brilliant 14-year-old still talks like a 14-year-old and still writes like a 14-year-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, the grammar was oddly good. O’Neil can see her students’ screens, and she sometimes watches them work. And, one day, she noticed they were using an unusual search engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Bing! I was noticing a lot of them were using Bing. To Google stuff, see even to Google stuff. And I was like, that’s the weirdest choice. Who uses Bing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And then, one day, she was watching a student complete a writing assignment in a google doc. And poof, a whole well-written paragraph just appeared. Out of nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Like one minute it’s not there, and one minute it’s there. And, it said like “here are your results”. And they forgot to delete that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And that’s when Devon realized her students were using ChatGPT to complete in class writing assignments. They would copy and paste the questions she would give them into Bing’s Copilot, which was a free way to use ChatGPT. Then, the students copied the answer, sometimes without any editing, right into their google document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil: \u003c/strong>Which is kind of a rookie mistake, like if they’re going to cheat, you want them to cheat a little better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> We first talked to Devon in 2023, just a few weeks after she figured out what was going on. She says that since then, she’s gotten a lot more savvy about ChatGPT. But her experience speaks to how much can, and did, change in schools, in just a couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> In November of 2022, ChatGPT was launched as a free research preview of advanced generative AI, like a pilot, or beta version. Generative AI is a type of artificial intelligence that can create new content, especially text, but also images, videos, and music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ChatGPT is the most famous example of generative AI. There are competitors like Google’s Gemini, Anthropic’s Claude, and the Chinese company, DeepSeek. And rather quickly, students figured out, ChatGPT was pretty good at doing their homework for them. Devon, out of school for two years, working on curriculum, had missed the arrival of the new homework machine. But her students had not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> The arrival of chatGPT, and then fairly quick upgrades with GPT-3.5 and GPT-4 within a couple of years, has been the big story in education technology since the fall of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Waterfall of news stories]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 1: \u003c/strong>So how does it work? Students can drop an assignment into something like ChatGPT, click a button and their homework is done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 2: \u003c/strong>She is talking about ChatGPT. School districts like New York cities are banning it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 3: \u003c/strong>ChatGPT is the new artificial intelligence tool causing a stir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools have scrambled to figure out what to do about ChatGPT. Ban it? Embrace it? Teachers have scrambled to try to get ahead of the “cheating” problem, and to find ways in which AI can support education. Some Students have scrambled to figure out how to use AI without their teachers detecting it. And education technology companies have scrambled to create AI powered ed tech. And have made many promises about how generative AI will transform education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan:\u003c/strong> But I think we’re at the cusp of using AI for probably the biggest positive transformation that education has ever seen, and the way we’re going to do that is by giving every student on the planet an artificially intelligent but amazing personal tutor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My career has been devoted to studying education technology. Over and over again, we’ve seen new technologies emerge in education, and the technology developers will promise, every time, that the new tech will transform and democratize education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan :\u003c/strong>That’s what’s about to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And while the technologies do sometimes help teachers and students, those big transformations to schools, they never happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> But there is something different about Chat GPT and other AI. Throughout history, most education technology has been adopted by schools, who hope it will help them do better work, teaching students. But Generative AI wasn’t invited into schools. Not for the most part. It crashed the party. Even if schools ban it from school laptops, students can often get around that ban, by using Bing, for example. Or they have their own laptop. Or they can access it on their mobile phone, which over 95% of teenagers have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, the kids have access to generative AI. And they’re using it, whether their teachers want them to, or not. That’s having a big impact on schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a little about me, and this project. I am a journalist, and for the past year and a half, I’ve been working with Justin and other colleagues at MIT’s Teaching Systems Lab. We’ve interviewed over 85 teachers and school leaders, and over 35 students about how all of this is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been hearing about why students cheat using AI, what teachers are doing to stop them, and how some teachers and students have found ChatGPT to be helpful for learning. And for the next several weeks, we’re going to share what we’ve learned with you in a mini series we’re calling the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And now, Jesse, who has immersed himself in this research, will be our host and guide for these episodes. Jesse, you can take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Thanks Justin, but not so fast. We’re going to want your historical knowledge about educational technology to help us unpack and contextualize these stories. So stay close, and keep your mic handy. In fact, we’re going to hear from you again in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Sounds good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Alright, well, let’s go back to A beginning: December of 2022. We’ll start with Steve Ouellette. He’s a technology director at the Westwood School district, southwest of Boston. His job includes keeping track of computers and software for the district, but also helping teachers think through how to use technology in their work. He remembers the exact moment he heard about generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> So I think it was, it was December 8th. And I was home sick with Covid. I got an email, I’m on a listserv, you know, with all the tech directors in Massachusetts and I got an email that said: Have AI write your next English paper. The sub caption was: Buckle up, here it comes. And someone had basically shared a video of this thing called ChatGPT, that was generating an essay about, I think it was about Raisin in the Sun. And I was like “What is going on here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Watching the video, Ouellette says he immediately realized that this was a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was, that was a moment. You know, I’ve been in this business since 1993 and I don’t remember having like, a really specific, like, reaction to something the way I did when I saw that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Ouellette emailed the district’s superintendent, and explained the situation to her. There was a new technological tool, available to students, that could do their schoolwork. Pretty effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> And she had no idea what it was. And I explained to her what it was and sent her a link and she shot back to me five minutes later and she’s like, yeah, we need to write about this. And so we, we felt, we both felt this sense of like, urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> The superintendent asked Ouellette to write a memo to the district’s teachers. Ouellette is a technology guy, and out of curiosity and excitement, he decided to experiment. Could ChatGPT draft the memo? He asked ChatGPT to write the first draft and sent it to the superintendent. She read it and told Ouellette, this is pretty formal language, it doesn’t sound like you. Make it more casual sounding. But Ouellette didn’t rewrite the memo himself. He prompted ChatGPT to revise the memo. And he told it: “Make it more conversational.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> I said, you need to write something funny about how, you know France was gonna win the World Cup. And it like, seamlessly incorporated a little like parenthetical thing about, oh by the way, France is gonna win the World Cup. And in the way it did, it was like magnificent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Here’s the memo ChatGPT wrote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ChatGPT: \u003c/strong> ChatGPT could also be used to help students learn other languages, such as Spanish or French (which, by the way, I think will win the 2022 World Cup). Imagine being able to have a conversation with ChatGPT in French and receiving instant corrections and feedback on your pronunciation and grammar. The possibilities are truly endless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Side note, I’m not that impressed with how ChatGPT did with that World Cup joke. It says that “French” will win the world cup, not “France”. But, that aside, they sent the memo out that Monday. Remember, this was December of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next few months, Ouellette formed an AI working group in the district. They brought in a guest speaker. They looked at academic policies. They talked to teachers and students. And by the summer of 2023, they had revised academic integrity guidelines as well as some basic training for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> The goal was to inform staff about what this stuff is, to let them know that there are guidelines, and that if they have students, you know, in grades eight or higher, they can use it with their students. But we also wanted to inform staff how to use it for themselves to make their own work more efficient. The theory behind that is if they’re using it, then they’ll be more informed to use it responsibly with their kids. And it’s nowhere near where what it needs to be. I’ll be the first to admit it, but we did something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> What Westwood did was quite a bit more than most districts. Last fall, a survey found only about one quarter of teachers said their school district had provided any guidance or professional development, about AI. That’s two years after the arrival of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Westwood, the faculty learned about ChatGPT pretty early on. Likely before many of their students heard about it. That was NOT true for other schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> The First Time I heard about ChatGPT was in my English Class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>This is Nanki Kaur. She just graduated from American High School, in Fremont, California. And she heard about ChatGPT from another student back in the spring of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> We were having a conversation about how we were going to approach our research paper assignment that was coming up, and you would have to pick an individual of American significance and prove why they were of American significance and what impact they had. And he was talking about how he just asked this AI platform about how his person of American Significance who was BLEEP, had an impact on America and he got a really strong thesis statement. And he said, I didn’t even have to do anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Now, I bleeped that last bit so this student won’t get in trouble.But the point here, Nanki says the thesis statement was actually pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> And we were all confused and we were like, what are you talking about? Like how did you not have to do anything and how do you have such a strong thesis statement? ’cause we were just learning how to write a thesis statement at that time. And he said, there’s this online platform, it’s driven by artificial intelligence and it just writes it for you and it’s, it’s really thorough.It’s really good. You guys should try it. And so that was the first time I heard about it and I was shocked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Nanki talked with our colleague Holly McDede, a reporter based in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Did you try it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I did go home and try it. Not for the same assignment, but I went home and I looked it up like Chat GPT, OpenAI, what is it? And then I asked it a couple questions like what is the weather like, and if I were to write a story about a certain situation,could you write me a story? And it actually answered all my prompts and it wrote me like a solid paragraph, and so I was shocked. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Nanki says she doesn’t know what the other student did with his thesis statement, but she has a guess:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I think he did turn it in and I don’t know what kind of disciplinary action he got because there wasn’t really much set in stone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Do you suspect he didn’t get any disciplinary action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I do suspect that because he was oddly smug about how well he had done on that assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> As far as Nanki knows, that student didn’t get in any trouble. In fact, she’s not sure the teachers knew about ChatGPT at that point. And Nanki says that the school didn’t seem to catch on that students were using ChatGPT to cheat until the fall of 2023, the next school year. A whole year after ChatGPT launched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nanki says when they did realize what was happening, the school came down hard. Nanki’s AP English teacher held a special class meeting to present the new academic integrity policy, with a list of sanctions if students were caught using Chat GPT or other AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Which included, zeros on the assignments or administrative disciplinary action. And if worse comes to worst, then it would be, suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> At American High School Nanki says their policies didn’t just ban ChatGPT. Students were also told they couldn’t use Grammarly, the grammar check program, or similar AI tools that are often built into students’ browsers. But, the policies weren’t applied consistently. Nanki says her social studies teacher actually encouraged her to use AI for research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Because she said, I think it’s a really good tool to get all the facts in one spot. Obviously, I’m gonna ask you guys to fact check and cross check, make sure that everything is correct. But I think it’s a really great, you know, tool for you guys to use so that you have everything in one place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Was that confusing for you or other students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> It was confusing for me, personally because I was like, I just don’t want to use it at all. Like I don’t even care because I don’t need like this habit. I don’t want it on my computer. I don’t want it anywhere, like I just want it like away from me because I didn’t want to jeopardize any chance of having a good grade in that class or in any of my classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Some 3000 miles away from Nanki, another student had quite a different experience. Woody Goss was wrapping up 8th grade in a public school in the suburbs north of New York city when he spoke to us in the spring of 2024. He says his teachers didn’t really respond to the arrival of ChatGPT. And, that students used AI to get their schoolwork done in almost all of his classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says his science class was the worst. The students all have laptops, but the teacher sits in front of the class, and can’t see what’s on the screens. Woody sits in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> And you can see everybody’s screen and you can see ChatGPT spitting out the text, and you can see them copy and pasting it into their paper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> You could literally see your fellow students using ChatGPT…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss: \u003c/strong> And copying and pasting it, yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> If you could estimate how many people in a classroom of 20 students, how many were using it to cheat in the way you’re describing. How many would you say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> So I’d say that there’s 10 people in that class using it for everything like cheating on, the whole paper is AI, I’d say there’s another 5 that probably half of it’s written by AI, but they do actually read it through and go, “Gee, maybe I don’t wanna include the part that says ‘As a large language model…’” but they like read it through and copy parts and splice bits and do whatever. Then I’d say of, so you’ve got five remaining. I’d say probably 4 of that 5 do the paper legitimately. So there’s 4 people doing it legitimately, and then there’s another one that’s going, and I don’t know, they, it’s kind of a mix, like they plagiarized stuff, but it’s like a paragraph in their entire thing. And I would say, of those 4, I mean, unless you’ve got a really, not a super smart tech kid, I’d say probably all four of those are using AI in some way. It’s just using it appropriately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Woody says that some of his teachers were apparently totally oblivious to generative AI. But not his science teacher. She tried to encourage students to use it in a way that would help them learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> That teacher was really trying, she seemed to grasp the concept that there was AI being used, and she was like, we’re gonna learn how to use AI, legitimately and like how do we use it in our research? And everybody heard, oh, you can use AI in your paper. And they all didn’t actually listen to what she was saying. Please use it as like a secondary source. And they all went, “okay, I’m gonna use ChatGPT to write my paper. “\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Um, do you have any teachers who effectively managed this? You know, either in their…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> No, I have the science teacher really tried. She really, she did actually provide, unlike all the other teachers, she actually provided instruction like, Hey, here’s how we’re gonna use it. Everybody ignored it, but she did try, right? All my other teachers just flat out ignored it the whole year. Um, except for the ELA teacher who said, we’re all writing paper benchmarks, which was a nightmare. That was just…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Why, why was that a nightmare?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> Because I’d say for a lot of us, not, not even including AI, we’re all digital people on Chromebooks. We don’t, we don’t know how to write a paper benchmark, which you could argue is its own problem. But then you had a million kids yelling and screaming about that, because god forbid you have to write a paper benchmark. Eww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, according to Woody, his English teacher made the students write things out by hand, which actually did keep people from using ChatGPT. Although Woody thinks that created other problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people have suggested that Woody doesn’t need to worry. According to him he’s doing his work legitimately. Assuming that’s true, and that the other students are using ChatGPT, then it’ll all come out in the wash. He’ll actually learn what he’s supposed to, and the others won’t, and eventually, that will be obvious, and give him an advantage. Maybe in getting into college, maybe on tests, maybe in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Woody doesn’t see it that way. In his world. Grades matter. Students are under pressure. When students choose to cheat, that can impact how the teachers teach the material. And the pace of learning, which puts even more pressure on the students who are trying to do the work themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s frustrating. It’s a compounding effect. I’d say at the beginning of the year, there weren’t a lot of students using AI, and I’d say it’s shifted as the pacing gets faster, then more kids feel like they need it ’cause they feel like they’re gonna fail if they don’t have it. So it piles on itself, and it also, I was never the fast worker in the class. I can do the work, but I’m like dyslexic anyway, so it takes me forever to do the work anyway. I’d say the number of people not using it, like the number of people holding out and being like, “I’m gonna do my work legitimately” is going down because it’s just, there’s no room for, especially in the district where I am, where a lot of, we’re very grade grubby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s expected, like you gotta have an A in every class. So everybody is, “I gotta get that A, I gotta get this assignment in on time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> All right. I’d like to bring Justin Reich back to the program. Justin has studied technology in schools over the decades, and he can help us make sense of the stories we just heard. Welcome back Justin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me, Jesse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So the interviews that I shared took place over a year ago, and we’re now coming up on 3 years since ChatGPT was unveiled in November of 2022. So I’m curious what overall reactions you’re having as you listen back to these stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, the first thing it makes me think of is something that we’ve talked about before, which is just this idea of instantaneous arrival is so unusual for an education technology. I mean, the joke we make sometimes is that, you know, “no kid ever dragged their own smart board into a classroom”. Typically education technology was purchased by schools, and that meant the schools could have at least something of a plan before they gave all their teachers online grade books, or they bought all their kids’ Chromebooks, or they bought all their kids’ iPads, or whatever else it is. But there is zero time for planning. There’s zero time for preparation. You know, Steve Ouellette says, “This is urgent”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just, there’s something which is happening right now and we need to deal with it. And then schools have really different capacities to deal with that. So an affluent place like Westwood, where they probably have recovered pretty well from the pandemic where things are feeling like they’re back on track, they probably have plenty of resources to hire substitute teachers, you know, the population of kids they serve have all kinds of challenges, but not nearly, the challenges they might encounter in some of their urban neighborhoods nearby or rural neighborhoods out west. They’re in a good place to be able to say, “Oh, we’ve, I’ve got some extra time to be able to manage this. Like, let’s get started.” Let’s, you know, teachers have extra time to be on the working group, “Let’s get started working on this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For, at other places, many, many schools in November 2022, in the spring of 2023, were still drowning in the challenges of chronic absenteeism of learning, loss of school that felt like it really hadn’t bounced back yet. And so this new thing shows up, and not every school in the country is on the same footing in figuring out how to deal with it. But of course, even if a school doesn’t have an institutional plan to deal with it, every teacher has to deal with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Ms O’Neill walks into her classroom and all of her students are using Bing. And she goes, well, you know, Bing! Bing is the web browser that you use to download Google Chrome, so you can never have to use Bing again. Why are all my students using Bing on a Chromebook? Like none of this makes sense. And what a great story, to remind us how significantly and quickly things changed and how there was no choice to postpone this. There was no way to say, ah, “ we’ll just buy, maybe we’ll buy the smart boards, but we’ll buy them next year, or we’ll buy them two years after that. Let’s just work on other stuff for now.” You, as an educator, had this in your classroom and had to decide what you were gonna do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Well, speaking of no option to postpone, I wanna play you something that Sam Altman said about all of this back in 2023. You know that Sam Altman was one of the founders of OpenAI, the company responsible for ChatGPT. And he’s the CEO. You may remember he was actually ousted from the company briefly and then reinstated in an episode they’re now calling the blip, and one thing he’s gotten some criticism for is just releasing new versions of ChatGPT out into the world, arguably without a lot of thought about what impact that might have or without a lot of support for institutions like schools that might be impacted by AI. And in 2023, the hosts of the New York Times podcast, Hard Fork asked him about that. And here’s what he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman:\u003c/strong> You know, one example that I mean is instructive because it was the first and the loudest is what happened with ChatGPT and education. Days, at least weeks. But I think days after the release of ChatGPT school districts were like falling all over themselves to ban ChatGPT. And that didn’t really surprise us, like that we could have predicted and did predict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The thing that happened after that quickly was, you know, like weeks to months, was school districts and teachers saying, Hey, actually we made a mistake and this is really important part of the future of education and the benefits far outweigh the downside. And not only are we banning it, we’re encouraging our teachers to make use of it in the classroom. We’re encouraging our students to get really good at this tool because it’s gonna be part of the way people live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, you know, then there was like a big discussion about what, what the kind of path forward should be. And that is just not something that could have happened without releasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>So Justin, you were paying pretty close attention in 2022 and 2023 when ChatGPT was first unleashed upon schools. Do you think Altman’s account is historically accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I actually got to hear Sam Altman give some version of this because he came to MIT, not long after November, 2022, gave a talk that was facilitated by Sally Kornbluth, our president. And he said something along the lines, I think the question was something like, you know, where are there big wins for ChatGPT? And he was like, well, education’s a slam dunk. This is a place where very obviously, we’re seeing benefits, not really seeing any downsides. Things are just immediately improving society. So this is gonna be a fast win for us. And yeah, you know, it’s, it’s delusional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not at all connected to what is actually happening in reality in schools. I’m sure some of it is, if I built a technology product, I’d be pretty excited to hear the voices of people who are happy with it. You know, people in powerful places don’t always have great sources of information about what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes : \u003c/strong>And, and everything he says has a kind of factual basis to it, but it adds up to a kind of orderly picture of what happens, that to me doesn’t really reflect the chaos that educators were experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Also, if you just know something about schools, this idea that, like, “as soon as it was released they were all doing something”, it’s like, no, that’s not how schools work. And then “really quickly after doing it, they reverse themselves” and you’re like, no, you do not under- like, schools are carrier fleets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools are super tankers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Schools are super tankers. Like when they turn, they turn slowly and they turn with inertia. And when they go back it takes a lot of time to move that backwards, but even just in the handful of stories that we heard,we heard from a couple of students, one teacher who said there was nothing happening in their schools. It wasn’t being banned, it wasn’t being encouraged. Teachers were kind of figuring out on their own what to do with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I mean, if you talk to teachers and students, it’s not very hard to get stories where you get the sense of like, oh, this is not an unambiguously good thing. Like this is making Nanki nervous because pretty clearly students are using this to bypass their learning in ways that they shouldn’t. Woody is really concerned that his classes are moving faster than they’re supposed to because teachers are getting the wrong feedback. From students because students, instead of doing the work and doing the learning and figuring things out, are just copying, pasting questions from ChatGPT into their assignments and this, and Woody is trying to, is telling us he’s trying to do the right thing and this isn’t working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And even Steve, who’s in like the best possible circumstances, a really experienced, really talented tech director with a really supportive superintendent, really supportive community, cool things happening in their schools. As much good work as he’s doing, I think he still feels like, that he’s just barely taking the first steps that might be needed to get his hands wrapped around this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and in fact, I actually played that Sam Altman tape for him and you know, he, and arguably what Sam Altman describes most closely resembles Westwood and Steve Ouellette, like of all the people we heard from, his story is the closest to Sam Altman’s account of what happened. But this, this is what he had to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette: \u003c/strong>Not to highlight Westwood, but when I talk to my peers in neighboring districts, no one’s doing anything. Like they’re just starting to create, think about creating guidelines. And so, we’re kind of just like building the plane, you know, while we fly it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> For the next 6 episodes, we’re going to hear stories of building the plane as we fly it. We’ll hear from the teachers who are struggling to prevent their students from using ChatGPT to bypass learning and thinking; We’ll talk with students about why they turn to AI to get their work done, and what it feels like to be falsely accused of using AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’ll hear from teachers, students, and school leaders who have found ways to use AI to help them teach or learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in our next episode, what even is generative AI? And why does the so-called “jagged frontier” of this technology make it so challenging when it shows up in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It doesn’t think, it doesn’t understand, it predicts one word at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>That’s next time on the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by me, Jesse Dukes. We had editing from Ruxandra Guidi and Alexandra Salomon. Reporting and research from Holly McDede, Natasha Esteves, Andrew Meriwether, and Chris Bagg. Sound design and music supervision by Steven Jackson. Production support from Yebu Ji. Data analysis from Manee Ngozi Nnamani and Manasa Kudumu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Josh Sheldon, Camila Lee, Liz Hutner, and Eric Klopfer. Administrative support from Jessica Rondon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The research and reporting you heard in this episode was supported by the Spencer Foundation, the Kapor Foundation, the Jameel World Education Lab, the Social and Ethical Responsibility of Computing Initiative at MIT, and the RAISE initiative, Responsible AI for Social Empowerment and Education also at MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, we had support from Google’s Academic Research Awards program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Homework Machine is a production of the Teaching Systems Lab, Justin Reich Director, the lab is located at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, more commonly known to the world as MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://teachlabpodcast.com/\">teachlabpodcast.com\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://tsl.mit.edu/AI\">tsl.mit.edu/AI\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>That was The Homework Machine from MIT’s Teachlab podcast.\u003cbr>\nYou can find the whole series wherever you get your podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next month with a brand new episode of Mindshift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65821\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1290px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-65821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561.jpg\" alt=\"Teen opening record player with crate of records at his feet.\" width=\"1290\" height=\"2275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561.jpg 1290w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-160x282.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-768x1354.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-871x1536.jpg 871w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-1161x2048.jpg 1161w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1290px) 100vw, 1290px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Student Shane Solis plays a record at The Mix, the teen-only section of the San Francisco Public Library main branch. \u003ccite>(Ki Sung/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public libraries have made significant transformations over the past decade to better serve community needs in the wake of technological and social change. Now, as public school funding faces an uncertain future, how will libraries step in? We’ll talk to some library kids who go to teen-only spaces after school and hear about how librarians are working hard to meet their needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3269390167\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Welcome to the MindShift Podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, there is a really cool place where teens love to hang out; no parents are allowed. There is no fee for admission but you gotta be checked in. What is this place?\u003cbr>\nIt’s \u003ca href=\"https://sfpl.org/teens/the-mix\">The Mix,\u003c/a> the teen only space inside the main branch of the San Francisco Public Library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Student Maelynn likes the hands-on activities\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>I just paint a canvas or I make, like, some bracelets, which is really cool to me. And then also, they have, like, video games, which is cool because I love playing Mario Kart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: 14-year-old Adam likes to make online content, after he finishes his homework, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adam: \u003c/strong>I just record gameplay sometimes with my voice and it’s really fun because I’m pretty good at it, but and the games I like to play just makes me happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>Like I don’t ever hear nobody say like oh We’re gonna hang out at library. It’s just be like, oh, I’m gonna hang out at The Mix but also not many people know about The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix has its own entrance on the second floor of the library. Inside there’s everything you can imagine to foster creativity. There’s a room with 3-d printers, sewing machines, mannequins and cabinets full of art supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two soundproof rooms with instruments where teens can make studio quality music recordings, podcasts or make green screen videos. There are tables for playing games like dungeons and dragons, a “carpet garden” lounge area for chilling or scrolling on phones; nooks with seating for large and small groups; a row of computers for playing video games; and of course bookshelves full of manga.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While I’m there, I see teens occupying every section of The Mix doing activities or just happily hanging out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On today’s episode of the MindShift Podcast, you’ll hear about how three libraries have transformed their services to create third spaces, that are neither home nor school, where teens can flourish. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to understand The Mix in San Francisco, you have to go back in time to 2009 in Chicago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That was when Chicago Public Libraries embarked on a bold plan through a program called YOUMedia. It was part of a broader initiative called \u003ca href=\"https://www.macfound.org/programs/pastwork/learning/\">Digital Media and Learning\u003c/a>. YOUMedia was designed to give students access to tech and digital media while in a safe environment with trusted adult mentors. Remember, this was in an era when there were fewer computers with WiFi at home for kids, so having these services at libraries made a lot of sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The idea was to lean into tech and build a bridge between letting teens do what they want, and making sure teens are in a positive environment. And it was a really new idea at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to teach digital media skills, educators tried a structured curriculum similar to school but found that that wasn’t widely popular with youth.\u003cbr>\nSo they rolled out workshop models that teens could explore at their own pace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric Brown who helped conduct research about YOUmedia’s impact, explained how staff gets teens to engage with technology, during a 2013 seminar:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Brown:\u003c/strong> they’re not forcing it down your throat. It’s a good place that gives you the option. You can pursue it or you can just chill. And you pursue it when you’re ready. And that’s very much the ethos of teens who go to YOU media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>:The YOUmedia model was so successful that the Chicago Public Library system expanded it to \u003ca href=\"https://www.chipublib.org/programs-and-partnerships/youmedia/\">29 branch locations\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other library systems around the country soon followed their example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But teens will always keep you on your toes. So being on the look out for what they need is something librarians are always focused on. And in New York, they saw one of those needs emerge recently. Here’s Siva Ramakrishnan, director of young adult services at the New York Public Library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>The pandemic really like brought into sharp relief the need for spaces where teens can build community again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>After all of that isolation, you know, it was such a difficult and weird and for many teens like traumatic time, right? And so at NYPL, we have done a number of things.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nSiva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>So one is that we have really invested in our spaces. This is kind of a, you know, historically a trend in libraries nationwide is that often there isn’t a space that is actually reserved for teenagers, right? Just historically there might be a general children’s area and that tends to skew, fairly young and adorable, right? But then there’s an adult area, right? And that tends to be very quiet with adults who are like in deep focus, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Siva Ramakrishnan: So we have really engaged in work over the past few years in carving out spaces in our libraries that are for teens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: What’s important is that the library isn’t just a space, but offers programming. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nypl.org/blog/2024/05/01/siva-ramakrishnan-and-steven-mahoney-receive-movers-shakers-honor-library-journal\">And in the new york public library’s teen centers, that are in several branches all over the city, they focus on\u003c/a> programs that teach civic engagement, college and career readiness along with cool things like how to run a 3d printer or facilitate a banned book club, or how to organize fashion design boot camps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan:\u003c/strong> We actually see a ton of teens across our libraries. NYPL has like over 90 neighborhood libraries. And like last school year in summer, we saw almost 120,000 teens who chose after a super long day at school to come to the library to their local branch and to participate in an after school program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Critics of teen spaces that focus on things other than literacy can take heart because there’s one really fascinating upside about the teens in New York. According to Ramakrishnan, they’re not only coming to the library more, these teens actually read more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen:\u003c/strong> Hmm, There are so many types of different media that we consume now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Doreen, a New York Public Library student ambassador whose job is to tutor kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen: \u003c/strong>I think that people perceive reading only as books or physical books. I know a lot of people who read on their Kindles or me personally, I have a heavy book bag. I take my iPad and I download a PDF of my book or my textbook and I read through there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>MUSIC\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, being IN a library can help facilitate reading even if your original reason for showing up is totally unrelated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Back in San Francisco at The Mix, student library ambassador Shane Macias considers his current relationship with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shane: \u003c/strong>Like I’ve checked out books and taken books that were there, they get for free. I read them at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix really reinvented what a library could be to its community. But when it started about a decade ago, the concept behind a teen space also ran counter to a traditional understanding of libraries as a place that houses books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>Some people were against this project in the community and voiced concern, like this sounds like a rec center and a daycare center for teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Eric Hannan, a librarian who helped start The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>And I’ve worked in libraries 35 years, that isn’t what libraries are supposed to do, but often it ends up being part of your job that you have what we used to call latchkey kids in the library after school, they have nowhere to go, both parents working or single parent working, they go chill in the libraries. So they’re gonna be there anyway, so we might as well kind of cater to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to cater to teens, the library got input from them. \u003ca href=\"https://youmedia.org/blog/in-san-francisco-teens-design-a-living-room-for-high-tech-learning-at-the-public-library/\">a board of advising youth (bay) weighed in and designed the San Francisco space around the idea of HoMaGo (ho-mah-go), an acronum for hang out, mess around, geek out. This board got final say on specific aspects of the space\u003c/a> like furniture preferences, programming and they even advocated for a dedicated bathroom in the mix. For Shane, a teen-designed space fits the bill.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nShane:\u003c/strong> I’d say to have space like this is very important because for me, in school and other libraries I’ve went to, I was either stuck with adults or little kids, which wasn’t uncomfortable, but it’s like, I wasn’t around people my age, so it felt really awkward and I guess did feel uncomfortable. It just kind of bothered me why the teens don’t have many places to go. Like, obviously we can go chill at the park or go back home but sometimes maybe we want more, I’d say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, as more libraries act as community centers for teens, they are meeting needs that schools, among other institutions, are unable to serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>The Library has a big role to play in helping teens in particular adapt to stress, stressors in life, be they political or, you know, biological COVID or just developmental. They’re just going through a unique time that is very short in their life, six or seven-ish years. And there’s a lot libraries can do to help ease some of the pain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65821\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1290px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-65821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561.jpg\" alt=\"Teen opening record player with crate of records at his feet.\" width=\"1290\" height=\"2275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561.jpg 1290w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-160x282.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-768x1354.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-871x1536.jpg 871w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-1161x2048.jpg 1161w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1290px) 100vw, 1290px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Student Shane Solis plays a record at The Mix, the teen-only section of the San Francisco Public Library main branch. \u003ccite>(Ki Sung/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public libraries have made significant transformations over the past decade to better serve community needs in the wake of technological and social change. Now, as public school funding faces an uncertain future, how will libraries step in? We’ll talk to some library kids who go to teen-only spaces after school and hear about how librarians are working hard to meet their needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3269390167\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Welcome to the MindShift Podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, there is a really cool place where teens love to hang out; no parents are allowed. There is no fee for admission but you gotta be checked in. What is this place?\u003cbr>\nIt’s \u003ca href=\"https://sfpl.org/teens/the-mix\">The Mix,\u003c/a> the teen only space inside the main branch of the San Francisco Public Library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Student Maelynn likes the hands-on activities\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>I just paint a canvas or I make, like, some bracelets, which is really cool to me. And then also, they have, like, video games, which is cool because I love playing Mario Kart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: 14-year-old Adam likes to make online content, after he finishes his homework, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adam: \u003c/strong>I just record gameplay sometimes with my voice and it’s really fun because I’m pretty good at it, but and the games I like to play just makes me happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>Like I don’t ever hear nobody say like oh We’re gonna hang out at library. It’s just be like, oh, I’m gonna hang out at The Mix but also not many people know about The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix has its own entrance on the second floor of the library. Inside there’s everything you can imagine to foster creativity. There’s a room with 3-d printers, sewing machines, mannequins and cabinets full of art supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two soundproof rooms with instruments where teens can make studio quality music recordings, podcasts or make green screen videos. There are tables for playing games like dungeons and dragons, a “carpet garden” lounge area for chilling or scrolling on phones; nooks with seating for large and small groups; a row of computers for playing video games; and of course bookshelves full of manga.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While I’m there, I see teens occupying every section of The Mix doing activities or just happily hanging out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On today’s episode of the MindShift Podcast, you’ll hear about how three libraries have transformed their services to create third spaces, that are neither home nor school, where teens can flourish. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to understand The Mix in San Francisco, you have to go back in time to 2009 in Chicago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That was when Chicago Public Libraries embarked on a bold plan through a program called YOUMedia. It was part of a broader initiative called \u003ca href=\"https://www.macfound.org/programs/pastwork/learning/\">Digital Media and Learning\u003c/a>. YOUMedia was designed to give students access to tech and digital media while in a safe environment with trusted adult mentors. Remember, this was in an era when there were fewer computers with WiFi at home for kids, so having these services at libraries made a lot of sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The idea was to lean into tech and build a bridge between letting teens do what they want, and making sure teens are in a positive environment. And it was a really new idea at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to teach digital media skills, educators tried a structured curriculum similar to school but found that that wasn’t widely popular with youth.\u003cbr>\nSo they rolled out workshop models that teens could explore at their own pace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric Brown who helped conduct research about YOUmedia’s impact, explained how staff gets teens to engage with technology, during a 2013 seminar:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Brown:\u003c/strong> they’re not forcing it down your throat. It’s a good place that gives you the option. You can pursue it or you can just chill. And you pursue it when you’re ready. And that’s very much the ethos of teens who go to YOU media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>:The YOUmedia model was so successful that the Chicago Public Library system expanded it to \u003ca href=\"https://www.chipublib.org/programs-and-partnerships/youmedia/\">29 branch locations\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other library systems around the country soon followed their example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But teens will always keep you on your toes. So being on the look out for what they need is something librarians are always focused on. And in New York, they saw one of those needs emerge recently. Here’s Siva Ramakrishnan, director of young adult services at the New York Public Library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>The pandemic really like brought into sharp relief the need for spaces where teens can build community again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>After all of that isolation, you know, it was such a difficult and weird and for many teens like traumatic time, right? And so at NYPL, we have done a number of things.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nSiva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>So one is that we have really invested in our spaces. This is kind of a, you know, historically a trend in libraries nationwide is that often there isn’t a space that is actually reserved for teenagers, right? Just historically there might be a general children’s area and that tends to skew, fairly young and adorable, right? But then there’s an adult area, right? And that tends to be very quiet with adults who are like in deep focus, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Siva Ramakrishnan: So we have really engaged in work over the past few years in carving out spaces in our libraries that are for teens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: What’s important is that the library isn’t just a space, but offers programming. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nypl.org/blog/2024/05/01/siva-ramakrishnan-and-steven-mahoney-receive-movers-shakers-honor-library-journal\">And in the new york public library’s teen centers, that are in several branches all over the city, they focus on\u003c/a> programs that teach civic engagement, college and career readiness along with cool things like how to run a 3d printer or facilitate a banned book club, or how to organize fashion design boot camps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan:\u003c/strong> We actually see a ton of teens across our libraries. NYPL has like over 90 neighborhood libraries. And like last school year in summer, we saw almost 120,000 teens who chose after a super long day at school to come to the library to their local branch and to participate in an after school program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Critics of teen spaces that focus on things other than literacy can take heart because there’s one really fascinating upside about the teens in New York. According to Ramakrishnan, they’re not only coming to the library more, these teens actually read more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen:\u003c/strong> Hmm, There are so many types of different media that we consume now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Doreen, a New York Public Library student ambassador whose job is to tutor kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen: \u003c/strong>I think that people perceive reading only as books or physical books. I know a lot of people who read on their Kindles or me personally, I have a heavy book bag. I take my iPad and I download a PDF of my book or my textbook and I read through there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>MUSIC\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, being IN a library can help facilitate reading even if your original reason for showing up is totally unrelated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Back in San Francisco at The Mix, student library ambassador Shane Macias considers his current relationship with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shane: \u003c/strong>Like I’ve checked out books and taken books that were there, they get for free. I read them at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix really reinvented what a library could be to its community. But when it started about a decade ago, the concept behind a teen space also ran counter to a traditional understanding of libraries as a place that houses books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>Some people were against this project in the community and voiced concern, like this sounds like a rec center and a daycare center for teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Eric Hannan, a librarian who helped start The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>And I’ve worked in libraries 35 years, that isn’t what libraries are supposed to do, but often it ends up being part of your job that you have what we used to call latchkey kids in the library after school, they have nowhere to go, both parents working or single parent working, they go chill in the libraries. So they’re gonna be there anyway, so we might as well kind of cater to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to cater to teens, the library got input from them. \u003ca href=\"https://youmedia.org/blog/in-san-francisco-teens-design-a-living-room-for-high-tech-learning-at-the-public-library/\">a board of advising youth (bay) weighed in and designed the San Francisco space around the idea of HoMaGo (ho-mah-go), an acronum for hang out, mess around, geek out. This board got final say on specific aspects of the space\u003c/a> like furniture preferences, programming and they even advocated for a dedicated bathroom in the mix. For Shane, a teen-designed space fits the bill.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nShane:\u003c/strong> I’d say to have space like this is very important because for me, in school and other libraries I’ve went to, I was either stuck with adults or little kids, which wasn’t uncomfortable, but it’s like, I wasn’t around people my age, so it felt really awkward and I guess did feel uncomfortable. It just kind of bothered me why the teens don’t have many places to go. Like, obviously we can go chill at the park or go back home but sometimes maybe we want more, I’d say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, as more libraries act as community centers for teens, they are meeting needs that schools, among other institutions, are unable to serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>The Library has a big role to play in helping teens in particular adapt to stress, stressors in life, be they political or, you know, biological COVID or just developmental. They’re just going through a unique time that is very short in their life, six or seven-ish years. And there’s a lot libraries can do to help ease some of the pain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teacher Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works. But recently, her \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">eighth-grade civics students \u003c/a>didn’t see a clear role for themselves in democracy, particularly because they were learning within the confines of the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, she tried something new – she invited \u003ca href=\"https://secure.smore.com/n/x2yqe\">older adults into her classroom to participate on a panel to answer a basic question\u003c/a>, “Why do we have civics?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Panelists shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights, which brought history to life for students in a way textbooks rarely do. In turn, the older adults asked students about their views on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65296/with-ai-changing-everything-heres-how-teachers-can-shape-the-new-culture-of-learning\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> and whether they were interested in civic life and volunteering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her hope for both the older adults and students was that they would connect with one another through learning about each other and start building community connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6728408/\">Research shows intergenerational programs\u003c/a> can improve students’ empathy, literacy and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54968/how-classroom-political-discussions-controversies-too-prepare-students-for-needed-civic-participation\"> civic engagement\u003c/a>, but developing those relationships outside of the home are hard to come by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65780\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 249px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-65780\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"249\" height=\"311\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg 640w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780-160x200.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 249px) 100vw, 249px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We are the \u003ca href=\"https://cogenerate.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Beyond-Passing-The-Torch.pdf\">most age segregated society,” said Mitchell.\u003c/a> “There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While some schools like \u003ca href=\"https://www.jenksps.org/o/west-elementary/page/grace-skilled-nursing-and-therapy-center\">Jenks West Elementary in Oklahoma\u003c/a> have built daily intergenerational interaction into their infrastructure, Mitchell shows that powerful learning experiences can happen within a single classroom. Her approach to intergenerational learning is supported by four takeaways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 24px; color: #2b2b2b;\">1. Have Conversations With Students Before An Event\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nBefore the panel, Mitchell guided students through a structured \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54378/how-to-create-deeper-student-learning-experiences-through-questions\">question-generating process\u003c/a>. She gave them broad topics to brainstorm around and encouraged them to think about what they were genuinely curious to ask someone from an older generation. After reviewing their suggestions, she selected the questions that would work best for the event and assigned student volunteers to ask them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To help the older adult panelists feel comfortable, Mitchell also hosted a brunch before the event. It gave panelists a chance to meet each other and ease into the school environment before stepping in front of a room full of eighth graders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of preparation makes a big difference, said Ruby Belle Booth, a researcher from the \u003ca href=\"https://circle.tufts.edu/\">Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement\u003c/a> at Tufts University. “Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults,” she said. When students know what to expect, they’re more confident stepping into unfamiliar conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That scaffolding helped students ask thoughtful, big-picture questions like: “What were the major civic issues of your life?” and “What was it like to be in a country at war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>2. Build Connections Into Work You’re Already Doing\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mitchell didn’t start from scratch. In the past, she had assigned students to interview older adults. But she noticed those conversations often stayed surface level. “How’s school? How’s soccer?” Mitchell said, summarizing the questions often asked. “The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She saw an opportunity to go deeper. By bringing those intergenerational conversations into her civics class, Mitchell hoped students would hear first-hand how older adults experienced civic life and begin to see themselves as future voters and engaged citizens. “\u003ca href=\"https://www.democraticknowledgeproject.org/\">[A majority] of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best system\u003c/a>,” she said. “But a third of young people are like, ‘Yeah, we don’t really have to vote.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Integrating this work into existing curriculum can be practical and powerful. “Thinking about how you can start with what you have is a really great way to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel,” said Booth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That could mean taking a guest speaker visit and building in time for students to ask questions or even inviting the speaker to ask questions of the students. The key, said Booth, is shifting from one-way learning to a more reciprocal exchange. “Start to think about little places where you can implement this, or where these intergenerational connections might already be happening, and try to enhance the benefits and learning outcomes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65769\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 960px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-65769 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"960\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-768x432.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Panelists from Ivy Mitchell’s intergenerational event shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>3. Don’t Get Into Divisive Issues Off The Bat\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For the first event, Mitchell and her students intentionally stayed away from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63250/politicians-love-to-talk-about-race-and-lgbtq-issues-in-school-teachers-and-teens-not-so-much\">controversial topics\u003c/a>. That decision helped create a space where both panelists and students could feel more at ease. Booth agreed that it’s important to start slow. “You don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues,” she said.\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\"> A structured conversation\u003c/a> can help build comfort and trust, which lays the groundwork for deeper, more challenging discussions down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also important to prepare older adults for how certain topics may be deeply personal to students. “A big one that we see divides with between generations is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/61031/teen-girls-and-lgbtq-youth-plagued-by-violence-and-trauma-survey-says\">LGBTQ identities\u003c/a>,” said Booth. “Being a young person with one of those identities in the classroom and then talking to older adults who may not have this similar understanding of the expansiveness of gender identity or sexuality can be challenging.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even without diving into the most divisive topics, Mitchell felt the panel sparked rich and meaningful conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>4. Leave Time For Reflection Afterwards\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leaving \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60009/keep-those-diaries-strategies-for-centering-student-voices-and-improving-reflection-habits\">space for students to reflect\u003c/a> after an intergenerational event is crucial, said Booth. “Talking about how it went — not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation — is vital,” she said. “It helps cement and deepen the learnings and takeaways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mitchell could tell the event resonated with her students in real time. “In our auditorium, the chairs are squeaky,” she said. “Whenever we have an event they’re not interested in, the squeaking starts and you know they’re not focused. And we didn’t have that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afterward, Mitchell invited students to write thank-you notes to the senior panelists and reflect on the experience. The feedback was overwhelmingly positive with one common theme. “All my students said consistently, ‘We wish we had more time,’” Mitchell said. “‘And we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.’” That feedback is shaping how Mitchell plans her next event. She wants to loosen the structure and give students more space to guide the dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Mitchell, the impact is clear. “The intergenerational voice brings so much more value and deepens the meaning of what you’re trying to do,” she said. “It makes civics come alive when you bring in people who have lived a civic life to talk about the things they’ve done and the ways they’ve connected to their community. And that can inspire kids to also connect to their community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2332768897\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s 10am at Grace Skilled Nursing Facility in Oklahoma and a cluster of 4- and 5-year-olds bounce with excitement, their sneakers squeaking on the linoleum floor of the rec room. Around them, seniors in wheelchairs and armchairs follow along as a teacher counts off stretches. They shake out limb by limb and every once in a while a kid adds a silly flair to one of the movements and everyone cracks a little smile as they try and keep up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"678\">\u003cem data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"676\">[Audio of teacher counting with students]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"786\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"696\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kids and seniors are moving together in rhythm. This is just another Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"820\">\u003cem data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"818\">[Audio of grands exercising]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"1094\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"838\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These preschoolers and kindergartners go to school here, inside of the senior living facility. The children are here every day—learning their ABCs, doing art projects, and eating snacks alongside the senior residents of Grace – who they call the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1390\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1113\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> When it originally started, it was the nursing home. And beside the nursing home was an early childhood center, which was like a daycare that was tied to our district. And so the residents and the students there at our early childhood center started making some connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1408\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Amanda Moore, the principal of Jenks West Elementary, the school inside of Grace. In the early days, the childhood center noticed the bonds that were forming between the youngest and oldest members of the community. The owners of Grace saw how much it meant to the residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They decided, okay, what can we do to make this a full-time program?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1930\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1803\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They did a renovation and they built on space so that we could have our students there housed in the nursing home every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"2075\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"1969\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is MindShift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Today we’ll explore how intergenerational learning works and why it might be exactly what schools need more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2316\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Book Buddies is one of the regular activities students at Jenks West Elementary do with the grands. Every other week, kids walk in an orderly line through the facility to meet their reading partners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2536\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Katy Wilson, a Kindergarten teacher at the school, says just being around older adults changes how students move and act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2742\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2678\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They start to learn body control more than a typical student.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2933\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2760\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> We know we can’t run out there with the grands. We know it’s not safe. We could trip somebody. They could get hurt. We learn that balance more because it’s higher stakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2987\">\u003cem data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2985\">[Mariah giving students their grands assignment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3098\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3005\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In the common room, kids settle in at tables. A teacher pairs students up with the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3224\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the kids read. Sometimes the grands do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3294\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Either way, it’s one-on-one time with a trusted adult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3528\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3393\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> And that’s something that I couldn’t accomplish in a typical classroom without all those tutors essentially built in to the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3546\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And it’s working. Jenks West has tracked student progress. Kids who go through the program tend to score higher on reading assessments than their peers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3952\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3719\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They get to read books that maybe we don’t cover on the academic side that are more fun books, which is great because they get to read about what they’re interested in that maybe we wouldn’t have time for in the typical classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"4020\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"3970\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grandma Margaret enjoys her time with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4191\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4043\">Grandma Margaret:\u003c/strong> I get to work with the children, and you’ll go down to read a book. Sometimes they’ll read it to you because they’ve got it memorized. Life would be kind of boring without them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4409\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4278\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> There’s also research that kids in these types of programs are more likely to have better attendance and stronger social skills. One of the long-term benefits is that students become more comfortable being around people who are different from them. Like a grand in a wheelchair, or one who doesn’t communicate easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4640\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amanda told me a story about a student who left Jenks West and later attended a different school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"5230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"4759\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> There were some students in her class that were in wheelchairs. She said her daughter naturally befriended these students and the teacher had actually recognized that and told the mom that. And she said, I truly believe it was the interactions that she had with the residents at Grace that helped her to have that understanding and empathy and not feel like there was anything that she needed to be worried about or afraid of, that it was just a part of her every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5418\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5248\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program benefits the grands too. There’s evidence that older adults experience improved mental health and less social isolation when they spend time with children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5628\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5483\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even the grands who are bedbound benefit. Just having kids in the building—hearing their laughter and songs in the hallway—makes a difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5646\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So why don’t more places have these programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> You really have to have everybody on board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5800\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5777\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s Amanda again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5908\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5819\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because both sides saw the benefits, we were able to create that partnership together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5926\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s likely not something that a school could do on its own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6008\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because it is expensive. They maintain that facility for us. If anything goes wrong in the rooms, they’re the ones that are taking care of all of that. They built a playground there for us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6335\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6218\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grace even employs a full-time liaison, who is in charge of communication between the nursing home and the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6503\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6354\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> She is always there and she helps organize our activities. We meet monthly to plan out the activities residents are going to do with the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6814\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6542\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Younger people interacting with older people has tons of advantages. But what if your school doesn’t have the resources to build a senior center? After the break, we look at how a middle school is making intergenerational learning work in a different way. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"7206\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"6872\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before the break we learned about how intergenerational learning can boost literacy and empathy in younger children, not to mention a bunch of benefits for older adults. In a middle school classroom, those same ideas are being used in a new way—to help strengthen something that many people worry is on shaky ground: our democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7246\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> My name is Ivy Mitchell. I teach eighth grade civics in Massachusetts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7642\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7337\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Ivy’s civics class, students learn how to be active members of the community. They also learn that they’ll need to work with people of all ages. After more than 20 years of teaching, Ivy noticed that older and younger generations don’t often get a chance to talk to each other—unless they’re family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7949\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7661\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> We are the most age-segregated society. This is the time when our age segregation has been the most extreme. There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"8047\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"7990\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When kids do talk to adults, it’s often surface level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8066\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> How’s school? How’s soccer? The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8567\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8186\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That’s a missed opportunity for all kinds of reasons. But as a civics teacher Ivy is especially concerned about one thing: cultivating students who are interested in voting when they get older. She believes that having deeper conversations with older adults about their experiences can help students better understand the past—and maybe feel more invested in shaping the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8586\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Ninety percent of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best way, the only best way. Whereas like a third of young people are like, yeah, you know, we don’t have to vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8782\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ivy wants to close that gap by connecting generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"9109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"8879\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Democracy is a very valuable thing. And the only place my students are hearing it is in my classroom. And if I could bring more voices in to say no, democracy has its flaws, but it’s still the best system we’ve ever discovered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9127\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea that civic learning can come from cross-generational relationships is backed by research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9421\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9250\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I do a lot of thinking about youth voice and institutions, youth civic development, and how young people can be more involved in our democracy and in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9462\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby Belle Booth wrote a report about youth civic engagement. In it she says together young people and older adults can tackle big challenges facing our democracy—like polarization, culture wars, extremism, and misinformation. But sometimes, misunderstandings between generations get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"10137\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"9784\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Young people, I think, tend to look at older generations as having sort of antiquated views on everything. And that’s largely in part because younger generations have different views on issues. They have different experiences. They have different understandings of modern technology. And as a result, they sort of judge older generations accordingly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10249\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10155\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Young people’s feelings towards older generations can be summed up in two dismissive words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10375\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10288\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> “OK, Boomer,” which is often said in response to an older person being out of touch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10506\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10397\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of humor and sass and attitude that young people bring to that relationship and that divide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10698\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10528\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> It speaks to the challenges that young people face in feeling like they have a voice and they feel like they’re often dismissed by older people—because often they are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10780\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10716\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And older people have thoughts about younger generations too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10890\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10802\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Sometimes older generations are like, okay, it’s all good. Gen Z is going to save us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"11053\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"10912\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> That puts a lot of pressure on the very small group of Gen Z who is really activist and engaged and trying to make a lot of social change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11255\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11071\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the big challenges that educators face in creating intergenerational learning opportunities is the power imbalance between adults and students. And schools only amplify that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11611\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11277\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> When you move that already existing age dynamic into a school setting where all the adults in the room are holding additional power—teachers giving out grades, principals calling students to their office and having disciplinary powers—it makes it so that those already entrenched age dynamics are even more challenging to overcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11652\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way to offset this power imbalance could be bringing people from outside of the school into the classroom, which is exactly what Ivy Mitchell, our teacher in Boston, decided to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11896\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11866\">Ivy Mitchell :\u003c/strong> Thank you for coming today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"12021\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"11914\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Her students came up with a list of questions, and Ivy assembled a panel of older adults to answer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12377\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12048\">Ivy Mitchell (event):\u003c/strong> The idea behind this event is I saw a problem and I’m trying to solve it. And the idea is to bring the generations together to help answer the question, why do we have civics? I know a lot of you wonder about that. And also to have them share their life experience and start building community connections, which are so vital.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12395\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One by one, students took the mic and asked questions to Berta, Steve, Tony, Eileen, and Jane. Questions like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12524\">Student:\u003c/strong> Do any of you think it’s hard to pay taxes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12584\">Student:\u003c/strong> What is it like to be in a country at war, either at home or abroad?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12669\">Student:\u003c/strong> What were the major civic issues of your life, and what experiences shaped your views on these issues?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12844\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12792\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And one by one they gave answers to the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"13001\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"12865\">Steve Humphrey:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think for me, the Vietnam War, for example, was a huge issue in my lifetime, and, you know, still is. I mean, it shaped us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13018\">Tony Surge:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we had, in our generation, we had a lot going on at once. We also had a big civil rights movement, Martin Luther King, that you probably will study, all very historical, if you go back and look at that. So during our generation, we saw a lot of major changes inside the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13329\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> The one that I kind of remember, I was young during the Vietnam War, but women’s rights. So back in ‘74 is when women could actually get a credit card without—if they were married—without their husband’s signature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13648\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13564\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then they flipped the panel around so elders could ask questions to students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13728\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13666\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> What are the concerns that those of you in school have now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13897\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13746\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> I mean, especially with computers and AI—does the AI scare any of you? Or do you feel that this is something you can really adapt to and understand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"14200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"13911\">Student:\u003c/strong> AI is starting to do new things. It can start to take over people’s jobs, which is concerning. There’s AI music now and my dad’s a musician, and that’s concerning because it’s not good right now, but it’s starting to get better. And it could end up taking over people’s jobs eventually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14416\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14214\">Student:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how you’re using it. Like, it can definitely be used for good and helpful things, but if you’re using it to fake images of people or things that they said, it’s not good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14607\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14455\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When Ivy debriefed with students after the event, they had overwhelmingly positive things to say. But there was one piece of feedback that stood out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14626\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> All my students said consistently, we wish we had more time and we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14783\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> They wanted to be able to talk, to really get into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14950\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14858\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Next time, she’s planning to loosen the reins and make space for more authentic dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14952\" data-end=\"15115\">Some of Ruby Belle Booth’s research inspired Ivy’s project. She noted some things that make intergenerational activities a success. Ivy did a lot of these things!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15133\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One: Ivy had conversations with her students where they came up with questions and talked about the event with students and older folks. This can make everyone feel a lot more comfortable and less nervous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15363\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15681\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15518\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Two: They didn’t get into tough and divisive questions during this first event. Maybe you don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15699\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three: Ivy built these connections into the work she was already doing. Ivy had assigned students to interview older adults before, but she wanted to take it further. So she made those conversations part of her class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"16124\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"15941\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Thinking about how you can start with what you have I think is a really great way to start to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16202\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16142\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Four: Ivy had time for reflection and feedback afterward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16472\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16224\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Talking about how it went—not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation for both parties—is vital to really cement, deepen, and further the learnings and takeaways from the opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16641\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16490\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby doesn’t say that intergenerational connections are the only solution for the problems our democracy faces. In fact, on its own it’s not enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"17207\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"16684\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I think that when we’re thinking about the long-term health of democracy, it needs to be grounded in communities and connection and reciprocity. A piece of that, when we’re thinking about including more young people in democracy—having more young people turn out to vote, having more young people who see a pathway to create change in their communities—we have to be thinking about what an inclusive democracy looks like, what a democracy that welcomes young voices looks like. Our democracy has to be intergenerational.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"17209\" data-end=\"17477\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"17209\" data-end=\"17225\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For the students, having conversations with older adults can help make history feel personal. And for the older adults, it’s a chance to share their stories and maybe even see the future a little more clearly through the eyes of the next generation.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teacher Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works. But recently, her \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">eighth-grade civics students \u003c/a>didn’t see a clear role for themselves in democracy, particularly because they were learning within the confines of the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, she tried something new – she invited \u003ca href=\"https://secure.smore.com/n/x2yqe\">older adults into her classroom to participate on a panel to answer a basic question\u003c/a>, “Why do we have civics?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Panelists shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights, which brought history to life for students in a way textbooks rarely do. In turn, the older adults asked students about their views on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65296/with-ai-changing-everything-heres-how-teachers-can-shape-the-new-culture-of-learning\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> and whether they were interested in civic life and volunteering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her hope for both the older adults and students was that they would connect with one another through learning about each other and start building community connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6728408/\">Research shows intergenerational programs\u003c/a> can improve students’ empathy, literacy and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54968/how-classroom-political-discussions-controversies-too-prepare-students-for-needed-civic-participation\"> civic engagement\u003c/a>, but developing those relationships outside of the home are hard to come by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65780\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 249px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-65780\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"249\" height=\"311\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg 640w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780-160x200.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 249px) 100vw, 249px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We are the \u003ca href=\"https://cogenerate.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Beyond-Passing-The-Torch.pdf\">most age segregated society,” said Mitchell.\u003c/a> “There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While some schools like \u003ca href=\"https://www.jenksps.org/o/west-elementary/page/grace-skilled-nursing-and-therapy-center\">Jenks West Elementary in Oklahoma\u003c/a> have built daily intergenerational interaction into their infrastructure, Mitchell shows that powerful learning experiences can happen within a single classroom. Her approach to intergenerational learning is supported by four takeaways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 24px; color: #2b2b2b;\">1. Have Conversations With Students Before An Event\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nBefore the panel, Mitchell guided students through a structured \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54378/how-to-create-deeper-student-learning-experiences-through-questions\">question-generating process\u003c/a>. She gave them broad topics to brainstorm around and encouraged them to think about what they were genuinely curious to ask someone from an older generation. After reviewing their suggestions, she selected the questions that would work best for the event and assigned student volunteers to ask them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To help the older adult panelists feel comfortable, Mitchell also hosted a brunch before the event. It gave panelists a chance to meet each other and ease into the school environment before stepping in front of a room full of eighth graders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of preparation makes a big difference, said Ruby Belle Booth, a researcher from the \u003ca href=\"https://circle.tufts.edu/\">Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement\u003c/a> at Tufts University. “Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults,” she said. When students know what to expect, they’re more confident stepping into unfamiliar conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That scaffolding helped students ask thoughtful, big-picture questions like: “What were the major civic issues of your life?” and “What was it like to be in a country at war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>2. Build Connections Into Work You’re Already Doing\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mitchell didn’t start from scratch. In the past, she had assigned students to interview older adults. But she noticed those conversations often stayed surface level. “How’s school? How’s soccer?” Mitchell said, summarizing the questions often asked. “The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She saw an opportunity to go deeper. By bringing those intergenerational conversations into her civics class, Mitchell hoped students would hear first-hand how older adults experienced civic life and begin to see themselves as future voters and engaged citizens. “\u003ca href=\"https://www.democraticknowledgeproject.org/\">[A majority] of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best system\u003c/a>,” she said. “But a third of young people are like, ‘Yeah, we don’t really have to vote.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Integrating this work into existing curriculum can be practical and powerful. “Thinking about how you can start with what you have is a really great way to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel,” said Booth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That could mean taking a guest speaker visit and building in time for students to ask questions or even inviting the speaker to ask questions of the students. The key, said Booth, is shifting from one-way learning to a more reciprocal exchange. “Start to think about little places where you can implement this, or where these intergenerational connections might already be happening, and try to enhance the benefits and learning outcomes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65769\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 960px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-65769 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"960\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-768x432.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Panelists from Ivy Mitchell’s intergenerational event shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>3. Don’t Get Into Divisive Issues Off The Bat\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For the first event, Mitchell and her students intentionally stayed away from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63250/politicians-love-to-talk-about-race-and-lgbtq-issues-in-school-teachers-and-teens-not-so-much\">controversial topics\u003c/a>. That decision helped create a space where both panelists and students could feel more at ease. Booth agreed that it’s important to start slow. “You don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues,” she said.\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\"> A structured conversation\u003c/a> can help build comfort and trust, which lays the groundwork for deeper, more challenging discussions down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also important to prepare older adults for how certain topics may be deeply personal to students. “A big one that we see divides with between generations is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/61031/teen-girls-and-lgbtq-youth-plagued-by-violence-and-trauma-survey-says\">LGBTQ identities\u003c/a>,” said Booth. “Being a young person with one of those identities in the classroom and then talking to older adults who may not have this similar understanding of the expansiveness of gender identity or sexuality can be challenging.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even without diving into the most divisive topics, Mitchell felt the panel sparked rich and meaningful conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>4. Leave Time For Reflection Afterwards\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leaving \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60009/keep-those-diaries-strategies-for-centering-student-voices-and-improving-reflection-habits\">space for students to reflect\u003c/a> after an intergenerational event is crucial, said Booth. “Talking about how it went — not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation — is vital,” she said. “It helps cement and deepen the learnings and takeaways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mitchell could tell the event resonated with her students in real time. “In our auditorium, the chairs are squeaky,” she said. “Whenever we have an event they’re not interested in, the squeaking starts and you know they’re not focused. And we didn’t have that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afterward, Mitchell invited students to write thank-you notes to the senior panelists and reflect on the experience. The feedback was overwhelmingly positive with one common theme. “All my students said consistently, ‘We wish we had more time,’” Mitchell said. “‘And we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.’” That feedback is shaping how Mitchell plans her next event. She wants to loosen the structure and give students more space to guide the dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Mitchell, the impact is clear. “The intergenerational voice brings so much more value and deepens the meaning of what you’re trying to do,” she said. “It makes civics come alive when you bring in people who have lived a civic life to talk about the things they’ve done and the ways they’ve connected to their community. And that can inspire kids to also connect to their community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2332768897\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s 10am at Grace Skilled Nursing Facility in Oklahoma and a cluster of 4- and 5-year-olds bounce with excitement, their sneakers squeaking on the linoleum floor of the rec room. Around them, seniors in wheelchairs and armchairs follow along as a teacher counts off stretches. They shake out limb by limb and every once in a while a kid adds a silly flair to one of the movements and everyone cracks a little smile as they try and keep up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"678\">\u003cem data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"676\">[Audio of teacher counting with students]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"786\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"696\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kids and seniors are moving together in rhythm. This is just another Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"820\">\u003cem data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"818\">[Audio of grands exercising]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"1094\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"838\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These preschoolers and kindergartners go to school here, inside of the senior living facility. The children are here every day—learning their ABCs, doing art projects, and eating snacks alongside the senior residents of Grace – who they call the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1390\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1113\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> When it originally started, it was the nursing home. And beside the nursing home was an early childhood center, which was like a daycare that was tied to our district. And so the residents and the students there at our early childhood center started making some connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1408\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Amanda Moore, the principal of Jenks West Elementary, the school inside of Grace. In the early days, the childhood center noticed the bonds that were forming between the youngest and oldest members of the community. The owners of Grace saw how much it meant to the residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They decided, okay, what can we do to make this a full-time program?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1930\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1803\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They did a renovation and they built on space so that we could have our students there housed in the nursing home every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"2075\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"1969\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is MindShift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Today we’ll explore how intergenerational learning works and why it might be exactly what schools need more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2316\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Book Buddies is one of the regular activities students at Jenks West Elementary do with the grands. Every other week, kids walk in an orderly line through the facility to meet their reading partners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2536\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Katy Wilson, a Kindergarten teacher at the school, says just being around older adults changes how students move and act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2742\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2678\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They start to learn body control more than a typical student.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2933\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2760\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> We know we can’t run out there with the grands. We know it’s not safe. We could trip somebody. They could get hurt. We learn that balance more because it’s higher stakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2987\">\u003cem data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2985\">[Mariah giving students their grands assignment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3098\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3005\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In the common room, kids settle in at tables. A teacher pairs students up with the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3224\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the kids read. Sometimes the grands do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3294\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Either way, it’s one-on-one time with a trusted adult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3528\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3393\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> And that’s something that I couldn’t accomplish in a typical classroom without all those tutors essentially built in to the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3546\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And it’s working. Jenks West has tracked student progress. Kids who go through the program tend to score higher on reading assessments than their peers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3952\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3719\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They get to read books that maybe we don’t cover on the academic side that are more fun books, which is great because they get to read about what they’re interested in that maybe we wouldn’t have time for in the typical classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"4020\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"3970\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grandma Margaret enjoys her time with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4191\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4043\">Grandma Margaret:\u003c/strong> I get to work with the children, and you’ll go down to read a book. Sometimes they’ll read it to you because they’ve got it memorized. Life would be kind of boring without them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4409\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4278\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> There’s also research that kids in these types of programs are more likely to have better attendance and stronger social skills. One of the long-term benefits is that students become more comfortable being around people who are different from them. Like a grand in a wheelchair, or one who doesn’t communicate easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4640\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amanda told me a story about a student who left Jenks West and later attended a different school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"5230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"4759\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> There were some students in her class that were in wheelchairs. She said her daughter naturally befriended these students and the teacher had actually recognized that and told the mom that. And she said, I truly believe it was the interactions that she had with the residents at Grace that helped her to have that understanding and empathy and not feel like there was anything that she needed to be worried about or afraid of, that it was just a part of her every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5418\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5248\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program benefits the grands too. There’s evidence that older adults experience improved mental health and less social isolation when they spend time with children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5628\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5483\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even the grands who are bedbound benefit. Just having kids in the building—hearing their laughter and songs in the hallway—makes a difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5646\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So why don’t more places have these programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> You really have to have everybody on board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5800\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5777\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s Amanda again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5908\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5819\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because both sides saw the benefits, we were able to create that partnership together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5926\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s likely not something that a school could do on its own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6008\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because it is expensive. They maintain that facility for us. If anything goes wrong in the rooms, they’re the ones that are taking care of all of that. They built a playground there for us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6335\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6218\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grace even employs a full-time liaison, who is in charge of communication between the nursing home and the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6503\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6354\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> She is always there and she helps organize our activities. We meet monthly to plan out the activities residents are going to do with the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6814\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6542\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Younger people interacting with older people has tons of advantages. But what if your school doesn’t have the resources to build a senior center? After the break, we look at how a middle school is making intergenerational learning work in a different way. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"7206\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"6872\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before the break we learned about how intergenerational learning can boost literacy and empathy in younger children, not to mention a bunch of benefits for older adults. In a middle school classroom, those same ideas are being used in a new way—to help strengthen something that many people worry is on shaky ground: our democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7246\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> My name is Ivy Mitchell. I teach eighth grade civics in Massachusetts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7642\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7337\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Ivy’s civics class, students learn how to be active members of the community. They also learn that they’ll need to work with people of all ages. After more than 20 years of teaching, Ivy noticed that older and younger generations don’t often get a chance to talk to each other—unless they’re family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7949\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7661\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> We are the most age-segregated society. This is the time when our age segregation has been the most extreme. There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"8047\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"7990\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When kids do talk to adults, it’s often surface level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8066\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> How’s school? How’s soccer? The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8567\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8186\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That’s a missed opportunity for all kinds of reasons. But as a civics teacher Ivy is especially concerned about one thing: cultivating students who are interested in voting when they get older. She believes that having deeper conversations with older adults about their experiences can help students better understand the past—and maybe feel more invested in shaping the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8586\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Ninety percent of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best way, the only best way. Whereas like a third of young people are like, yeah, you know, we don’t have to vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8782\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ivy wants to close that gap by connecting generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"9109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"8879\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Democracy is a very valuable thing. And the only place my students are hearing it is in my classroom. And if I could bring more voices in to say no, democracy has its flaws, but it’s still the best system we’ve ever discovered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9127\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea that civic learning can come from cross-generational relationships is backed by research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9421\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9250\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I do a lot of thinking about youth voice and institutions, youth civic development, and how young people can be more involved in our democracy and in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9462\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby Belle Booth wrote a report about youth civic engagement. In it she says together young people and older adults can tackle big challenges facing our democracy—like polarization, culture wars, extremism, and misinformation. But sometimes, misunderstandings between generations get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"10137\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"9784\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Young people, I think, tend to look at older generations as having sort of antiquated views on everything. And that’s largely in part because younger generations have different views on issues. They have different experiences. They have different understandings of modern technology. And as a result, they sort of judge older generations accordingly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10249\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10155\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Young people’s feelings towards older generations can be summed up in two dismissive words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10375\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10288\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> “OK, Boomer,” which is often said in response to an older person being out of touch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10506\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10397\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of humor and sass and attitude that young people bring to that relationship and that divide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10698\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10528\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> It speaks to the challenges that young people face in feeling like they have a voice and they feel like they’re often dismissed by older people—because often they are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10780\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10716\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And older people have thoughts about younger generations too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10890\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10802\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Sometimes older generations are like, okay, it’s all good. Gen Z is going to save us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"11053\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"10912\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> That puts a lot of pressure on the very small group of Gen Z who is really activist and engaged and trying to make a lot of social change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11255\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11071\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the big challenges that educators face in creating intergenerational learning opportunities is the power imbalance between adults and students. And schools only amplify that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11611\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11277\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> When you move that already existing age dynamic into a school setting where all the adults in the room are holding additional power—teachers giving out grades, principals calling students to their office and having disciplinary powers—it makes it so that those already entrenched age dynamics are even more challenging to overcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11652\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way to offset this power imbalance could be bringing people from outside of the school into the classroom, which is exactly what Ivy Mitchell, our teacher in Boston, decided to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11896\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11866\">Ivy Mitchell :\u003c/strong> Thank you for coming today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"12021\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"11914\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Her students came up with a list of questions, and Ivy assembled a panel of older adults to answer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12377\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12048\">Ivy Mitchell (event):\u003c/strong> The idea behind this event is I saw a problem and I’m trying to solve it. And the idea is to bring the generations together to help answer the question, why do we have civics? I know a lot of you wonder about that. And also to have them share their life experience and start building community connections, which are so vital.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12395\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One by one, students took the mic and asked questions to Berta, Steve, Tony, Eileen, and Jane. Questions like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12524\">Student:\u003c/strong> Do any of you think it’s hard to pay taxes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12584\">Student:\u003c/strong> What is it like to be in a country at war, either at home or abroad?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12669\">Student:\u003c/strong> What were the major civic issues of your life, and what experiences shaped your views on these issues?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12844\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12792\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And one by one they gave answers to the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"13001\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"12865\">Steve Humphrey:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think for me, the Vietnam War, for example, was a huge issue in my lifetime, and, you know, still is. I mean, it shaped us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13018\">Tony Surge:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we had, in our generation, we had a lot going on at once. We also had a big civil rights movement, Martin Luther King, that you probably will study, all very historical, if you go back and look at that. So during our generation, we saw a lot of major changes inside the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13329\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> The one that I kind of remember, I was young during the Vietnam War, but women’s rights. So back in ‘74 is when women could actually get a credit card without—if they were married—without their husband’s signature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13648\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13564\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then they flipped the panel around so elders could ask questions to students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13728\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13666\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> What are the concerns that those of you in school have now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13897\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13746\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> I mean, especially with computers and AI—does the AI scare any of you? Or do you feel that this is something you can really adapt to and understand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"14200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"13911\">Student:\u003c/strong> AI is starting to do new things. It can start to take over people’s jobs, which is concerning. There’s AI music now and my dad’s a musician, and that’s concerning because it’s not good right now, but it’s starting to get better. And it could end up taking over people’s jobs eventually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14416\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14214\">Student:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how you’re using it. Like, it can definitely be used for good and helpful things, but if you’re using it to fake images of people or things that they said, it’s not good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14607\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14455\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When Ivy debriefed with students after the event, they had overwhelmingly positive things to say. But there was one piece of feedback that stood out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14626\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> All my students said consistently, we wish we had more time and we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14783\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> They wanted to be able to talk, to really get into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14950\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14858\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Next time, she’s planning to loosen the reins and make space for more authentic dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14952\" data-end=\"15115\">Some of Ruby Belle Booth’s research inspired Ivy’s project. She noted some things that make intergenerational activities a success. Ivy did a lot of these things!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15133\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One: Ivy had conversations with her students where they came up with questions and talked about the event with students and older folks. This can make everyone feel a lot more comfortable and less nervous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15363\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15681\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15518\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Two: They didn’t get into tough and divisive questions during this first event. Maybe you don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15699\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three: Ivy built these connections into the work she was already doing. Ivy had assigned students to interview older adults before, but she wanted to take it further. So she made those conversations part of her class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"16124\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"15941\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Thinking about how you can start with what you have I think is a really great way to start to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16202\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16142\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Four: Ivy had time for reflection and feedback afterward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16472\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16224\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Talking about how it went—not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation for both parties—is vital to really cement, deepen, and further the learnings and takeaways from the opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16641\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16490\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby doesn’t say that intergenerational connections are the only solution for the problems our democracy faces. In fact, on its own it’s not enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"17207\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"16684\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I think that when we’re thinking about the long-term health of democracy, it needs to be grounded in communities and connection and reciprocity. A piece of that, when we’re thinking about including more young people in democracy—having more young people turn out to vote, having more young people who see a pathway to create change in their communities—we have to be thinking about what an inclusive democracy looks like, what a democracy that welcomes young voices looks like. Our democracy has to be intergenerational.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"17209\" data-end=\"17477\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"17209\" data-end=\"17225\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For the students, having conversations with older adults can help make history feel personal. And for the older adults, it’s a chance to share their stories and maybe even see the future a little more clearly through the eyes of the next generation.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "friendship-break-ups-can-be-devastating-for-tweens-heres-how-adults-can-help",
"title": "Friendship Break Ups Can Be Devastating for Tweens. Here’s How Adults Can Help",
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"headTitle": "Friendship Break Ups Can Be Devastating for Tweens. Here’s How Adults Can Help | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis, a researcher at Education Northwest, found out her 10-year-old son had made a sad playlist to cope with his best friend moving away. He’d listen to it at night and cry himself to sleep. “It just kind of crushed me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davis had known the transition would be tough, but she hadn’t realized just how deep the loss would feel. Like many adults, she underestimated how intense \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65569/the-secret-to-staying-best-friends-forever-dont-deep-score\">childhood friendships\u003c/a> – and their endings – can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friendship “breakups” are a common part of growing up. One \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30558749/\">study of sixth graders\u003c/a> in the Los Angeles Unified School District found that two-thirds of students changed friend groups between September and June. These shifts often happen during big transitions, like starting middle or high school or developing new interests. But just because they’re common doesn’t mean they’re easy, especially during adolescence, which neuroscientists define as the period from age 10 to 25.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lydiadenworth.com/\">Science journalist Lydia Denworth\u003c/a> has spent years researching how friendships develop across the lifespan. She says the adolescent brain is especially tuned into social dynamics. “Friendship is everything,” she said. “When it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.” Different situations call for different kinds of support. Denworth offers insights on how adults can show up thoughtfully when friendships shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Talk About Friendship Early\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Denworth encourages adults to be proactive about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63184/when-parents-know-these-4-phases-of-friendship-they-can-help-their-child-make-friends-more-easily\">supporting kids’ friendships\u003c/a>. That means talking about what healthy friendship looks like even when everything seems fine. “We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities,” she said. “We should be talking about [friendship] at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63456/6-ways-educators-can-bolster-boys-social-skills\">Friendship is a skill set\u003c/a>, according to Denworth, and kids don’t automatically arrive with all the tools they need. A healthy friendship, she added, is positive, long-lasting and cooperative with mutual kindness, emotional support and reciprocity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School in Berkeley, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59757/with-classroom-behavior-issues-on-the-rise-restorative-justice-offers-solutions\">restorative justice counselor\u003c/a> Chau Tran tells students early in the school year that she’s available to help with friendship issues. She’s learned that small miscommunications can quickly snowball. Support from adults can help students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\">express themselves clearly\u003c/a> and set better boundaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At this age, they’re still kind of learning how to navigate a conflict. They’re still figuring out how to speak their truth while also learning how to sit and actively listen,” Tran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When a Kid Is Going Through a Breakup\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If a child is being broken up with, it’s natural for adults to want to fix it. But Denworth says the best thing adults can do is slow down and validate the hurt. She noted that there is a tendency to minimize the pain, but developmentally their brains are responding to this social change differently than adults. “knowing that should help us\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64516/to-raise-empathetic-children-parents-must-practice-empathy-themselves\"> have more empathy\u003c/a>,” said Denworth. “I’d say, ‘Yeah, this really hurts.’ And then just let it. Let it hurt, but be there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s necessary for kids to go through these experiences as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/57010/how-understanding-middle-school-friendships-can-help-students\">part of the growing up process\u003c/a>. Where adults can be helpful is by providing some context and talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time, according to Denworth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saachi, a 14-year-old in Menlo Park, experienced a painful friendship fallout during her freshman year. “I just noticed they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me,” she said. Saachi was sad and confused, but she appreciated how her mom helped by staying calm and sharing similar stories from her own life. She encouraged Saachi to connect with other students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups,” Saachi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When Your Kid Is the One Ending Things\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Friendship breakups can also be hard for the person doing the breaking up. Isabel, 17, ended a friendship in high school. “When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more concerning signs,” Isabel said, adding that their friend would do things without caring about consequences. “That’s where I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Isabel didn’t talk to an adult about it because they had bad experiences with adults brushing it off in the past. They sent a text to end the friendship, then wrestled with guilt and doubt for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Denworth said that’s where parents can help—not by deciding whether a friendship should end, but by helping kids think through how they’re ending it. She recommends that parents check in with kids about whether they are being kind when they break things off with a friend. “That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty,” Denworth said. “And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>If you have more time, you can plan\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis’s son is facing another friend’s move this year, but this time, she’s planning ahead. Knowing her son and how deep his reactions were when his last friend moved away is making her think about ways that she can support him during what she knows will be a hard transition. “We’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time for them to be together,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is helping her son and his friend make time to create things so that they both have tangible memories of the friendship. Additionally they are planning for what her son might send his friend when the friend moves away. “So that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of the joy in their friendship,” added Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is also ensuring lines of communication like texting or online messaging are established so that her son and his friend can communicate after the move, even if their communication eventually peters out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many parents, Davis is figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing. So far, there is no perfect formula. “We need to be prepared to support him and who he is and the reactions that he’s going to have,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3169186124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Think back to when you were a kid—did you ever have a good friend move away? One day you’re hanging out at recess, planning your next sleepover, and then suddenly… they’re just gone. No more playdates, No more inside jokes, and no say in the matter. How unfair is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Leanne Davis, a parent in Washington State, watched her 10 year old son go through exactly that not too long ago WHEN His good friend moved to Spain. To Leanne’s surprise, her son grieved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> He made himself a sad playlist on Spotify. He listens to his playlist when he’s feeling like just really in his emotions about his friend and like his friend leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She caught him listening to it at night, crying himself to sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> It just kind of crushed me and then I realized like how important this these friendships were and it actually wasn’t something that we were talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Today on MindShift, we’re diving into the ups and downs of friendship breakups—and how the adults in kids’ lives can help them navigate it. We’ll hear from Leanne, researchers, and teens about how to strike the right balance. All that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a kid loses a friend, it can feel heartbreaking—for them and for the parent trying to support them. But these shifts in friendship are not only common they are actually expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Science journalist Lydia Denworth has spent years researching how friendships develop and function throughout all stages of life. She says that friendship during adolescence — a period neuroscientists define as spanning ages 10 to 25 — is especially unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> In adolescence in particular, the brain is. Undergoing a lot of change. Most of which makes you far more attentive to social cues, to friendship, to what everybody else is doing, what they might think of you. And it’s just it’s all about friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That hyper-focus on friends is biological. And it’s a growing up process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We want adolescents to begin to explore life outside their immediate family. We want them to learn to be independent and to take some risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And the focus on friends and the importance of their social lives is part of that. It’s finding their way in the larger social world and making sense of their own identity within that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s common for students to go through big friendship breakups when they are going through a school transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>One of the studies that I think is most surprising was done with thousands of middle schoolers in the Los Angeles School Unified School District, and they found that two thirds of sixth graders changed friends from September to June.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Kids make friends where they spend their time—on the soccer field, in the band room, at robotics club. And as interests change, friendships can too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>When kids are going through it, or if you went through that in sixth grade or seventh grade, you thought it was only you, right? That was that was losing your friends or feeling at sea a little bit or getting interested in—maybe you’re the you were the kid or your kid is the one who is seeking out the new relationships. But the the really important message is just how normal that is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, a 14 year old from Menlo Park, had a close knit group of friends when she started high school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We had come from middle school we all knew each other so we were just like, okay, like we’re gonna stick together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few months into the school year, something shifted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I just noticed like they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> They would be talking to people and then i would try to talk to them, and be like oh hey like what would we like just like telling them about stuff that happened um throughout the school day and then they would just like look at me like oh yeah whatever like uh-huh uh-uh and like quickly like turn away and like dismiss me constantly and i was just like they didn’t really acknowledge my presence anymore. It was as if like I just wasn’t really there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: It was especially painful because their friendship had once felt effortless—full of energy and care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We used to like talk so much like if we had if like one of us had something to say like we would sit there we’d listen we’d have like so much to say about the other person’s like story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When that dynamic disappeared, it left Saachi feeling something she didn’t expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I was kind of sad, but I was more so confused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> I would have liked to know what they were thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>If they had just talked to me you know maybe we would have still been friends i don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Saachi’s case, she was left to piece together what went wrong. In other cases, ending the friendship is a conscious choice. Isabel Daniels, a 17 year old, shared their story\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>I met this friend like pretty much in like middle school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>This friendship, it’s, like, Oh, someone finally understands me and like, we finally see each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Isabel was drawn to their friend’s free spirit—the way they didn’t seem weighed down by other people’s opinions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more like…concerning signs, like that lack of care for how society thinks it’s like a double edged sword and so it’s nice in a way that like, oh, you’re free from these and expectations, but also you don’t. Like you don’t care about consequences, which can lead to a lot of like dangerous behavior. And that’s where I was like, I’m not like comfortable with that. Just because I also don’t like being labeled or having a lot of expectations put on me, it doesn’t mean I’m want to go out of my way and be like a menace in like a not fun and silly way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What began as carefree fun started to feel unsafe. Isabel knew they needed to end the friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>It’s like fun while it lasts, but then you realize that fun comes with a cost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the time came to break things off, Isabel didn’t feel like they could do it in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I unfortunately broke up with this friend over text, blocked their number and then didn’t look back after that which only added to the guilt, because I didn’t give this friend a chance to explain, to give their piece. Like we didn’t have a conversation. I just like sent it, blocked, and then tried to move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Isabel was certain the friendship needed to end, and they haven’t talked to the friend since, but they were left with lingering questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> What if, like, what would this person say? Could have things been different if we both just talked?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though Isabel was grappling with some big questions, they did not reach out for support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was very against asking help, especially from adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>To Isabel, adults didn’t feel like a helpful option. They worried they wouldn’t be understood, or that the advice would miss the nuance of what they were going through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>Things tend to be watered down when you are talking to someone older than you because they view you as like oh you’re just not like fully mentally developed you just haven’t um seen life enough and that this is just part of that, but these are significant moments in our life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had memories of adults falling short when it came to helping with friendships. For example, Isabel has this story from when they were younger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was telling an adult that this kid was being a bit too rough with me when we were playing. This kid was a boy so you know what the adults told me? Oh that just means he likes you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lydia Denworth, the science journalist we heard from earlier, has some helpful insights about where adults often go wrong—and what they can do instead. She recommends adults have conversations with kids about friendship before things go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We should be talking about that at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test or, you know, whether you got the main lead role in the musical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities and what they’re doing. And we put pressure on those things and we want to know about their friends too, but what we don’t realize is that\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We can help kids understand that friendship is a set of social skills and that it is those are skills that we benefit from practice and that kids don’t necessarily come into the world having all of them ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Defining what a good and healthy friendship looks like early on can not only help them have stronger friendships, but also better romantic and family relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> A really good quality friendship has three things. It’s long lasting, it’s positive and it’s cooperative. So that means that a good friend is a steady, stable presence in your life. They make you feel good. So they’re kind. They say nice things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And then the co operative piece is the reciprocity, the the back and forth, the helpfulness, the sort of showing up and listening and and not having a relationship that’s lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And just because someone’s been your friend for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re still a good friend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The longer term relationships we often just sort of stick with because we have that shared history piece. But if they’re not positive any more, if they’re not making you feel better, then they might not be a really healthy relationship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a child is experiencing a friendship breakup, Lydia suggests adults resist the urge to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>You can’t necessarily just make it all better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We need to understand that kids need to go through these experiences and this process. But where adults can be helpful is by providing some context, by talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That also means validating the pain kids are feeling. It’ll be hard, but don’t jump in and convince kids that it isn’t a big deal. Downplaying the situation is well intentioned but it can backfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>I spoke earlier about how much the adolescent brain is changing. It’s almost at the same level that a toddler’s brain is changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The result is that not only are they really primed for social things, but they’re also their emotions are literally heightened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Friendship is everything. And so when it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words the feelings that kids are bringing to their social relationships are real for them and they aren’t the same for us adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Literally our brains are responding differently and knowing that should help us have more empathy\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> I’d say, Yeah, this really hurts. You know, I’m. And then just just let it, let it hurt like and, but be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And if a child wants to keep talking you can follow their lead by sharing your own experiences with friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Talk about maybe a time that you had a friendship that that fell apart or where somebody got hurt and what you did to mend it if you did or or why you didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, the freshman I talked to earlier, told me that she appreciated the way her mom did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> My mom she’s always been a very like calm individual like it takes a lot to tip her over the edge like she’s very like she wasn’t freaking out because she’s had a lot of like life experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She’s like i had friends like that like i dealt with that and it’s just like she was calm and that made me calm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When her mom said she’d eventually make new friends who treated her better, Saachi wasn’t so sure. But she tried to talk to new people in her classes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She was right, because I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>If your child is the one ending a friendship, it’s worth checking in—not to control their choice, but to help them think through how they’re doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Are they being kind? Are they being thoughtful? That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But but there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s return to Leanne Davis, the mom we heard from earlier. When she saw how hard her son took the loss, she realized she’d underestimated the seriousness of childhood friendships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> I moved a lot as an adult. My husband moved a a lot and I think we were tending, it took us a couple steps to be like, well, wait a minute, this is this kid and this kid is very different than other kid and. very different than maybe how we would do this. I need to be prepared to support him and who he is and like the reactions that he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This year another one of her son’s friends is moving away. And …this kid can’t catch a break…his friend is moving to Australia. But this time, Leanne is thinking about it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Now, knowing that this is happening and this is gonna be really rough we’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time, for them to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s helping him make memories—something tangible to remember the friendship by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Finding ways to like document some of their memories and things they’re doing together. Like he and I are planning for what would he like to send his friend when his friend leaves, or something that he’d like to make that, you know, that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of like the joy in their friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And she’s also planning for what happens after the move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis: \u003c/strong>He does text his friends, like on, he can like message him from the computer. So making sure that they’re able to communicate that way. and that it’s established before they leave, knowing that it may eventually fade out, but that that’s a way for them to know that they can get in touch with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Like so many parents, Leanne’s figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And maybe that’s the real work of showing up for kids—not having the perfect response, but staying close enough to notice what they need, and giving them space to figure the rest out themselves. Because in the end, friendship breakups are just part of growing up. But having someone who sees you through it can make all the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis, a researcher at Education Northwest, found out her 10-year-old son had made a sad playlist to cope with his best friend moving away. He’d listen to it at night and cry himself to sleep. “It just kind of crushed me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davis had known the transition would be tough, but she hadn’t realized just how deep the loss would feel. Like many adults, she underestimated how intense \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65569/the-secret-to-staying-best-friends-forever-dont-deep-score\">childhood friendships\u003c/a> – and their endings – can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friendship “breakups” are a common part of growing up. One \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30558749/\">study of sixth graders\u003c/a> in the Los Angeles Unified School District found that two-thirds of students changed friend groups between September and June. These shifts often happen during big transitions, like starting middle or high school or developing new interests. But just because they’re common doesn’t mean they’re easy, especially during adolescence, which neuroscientists define as the period from age 10 to 25.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lydiadenworth.com/\">Science journalist Lydia Denworth\u003c/a> has spent years researching how friendships develop across the lifespan. She says the adolescent brain is especially tuned into social dynamics. “Friendship is everything,” she said. “When it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.” Different situations call for different kinds of support. Denworth offers insights on how adults can show up thoughtfully when friendships shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Talk About Friendship Early\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Denworth encourages adults to be proactive about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63184/when-parents-know-these-4-phases-of-friendship-they-can-help-their-child-make-friends-more-easily\">supporting kids’ friendships\u003c/a>. That means talking about what healthy friendship looks like even when everything seems fine. “We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities,” she said. “We should be talking about [friendship] at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63456/6-ways-educators-can-bolster-boys-social-skills\">Friendship is a skill set\u003c/a>, according to Denworth, and kids don’t automatically arrive with all the tools they need. A healthy friendship, she added, is positive, long-lasting and cooperative with mutual kindness, emotional support and reciprocity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School in Berkeley, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59757/with-classroom-behavior-issues-on-the-rise-restorative-justice-offers-solutions\">restorative justice counselor\u003c/a> Chau Tran tells students early in the school year that she’s available to help with friendship issues. She’s learned that small miscommunications can quickly snowball. Support from adults can help students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\">express themselves clearly\u003c/a> and set better boundaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At this age, they’re still kind of learning how to navigate a conflict. They’re still figuring out how to speak their truth while also learning how to sit and actively listen,” Tran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When a Kid Is Going Through a Breakup\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If a child is being broken up with, it’s natural for adults to want to fix it. But Denworth says the best thing adults can do is slow down and validate the hurt. She noted that there is a tendency to minimize the pain, but developmentally their brains are responding to this social change differently than adults. “knowing that should help us\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64516/to-raise-empathetic-children-parents-must-practice-empathy-themselves\"> have more empathy\u003c/a>,” said Denworth. “I’d say, ‘Yeah, this really hurts.’ And then just let it. Let it hurt, but be there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s necessary for kids to go through these experiences as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/57010/how-understanding-middle-school-friendships-can-help-students\">part of the growing up process\u003c/a>. Where adults can be helpful is by providing some context and talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time, according to Denworth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saachi, a 14-year-old in Menlo Park, experienced a painful friendship fallout during her freshman year. “I just noticed they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me,” she said. Saachi was sad and confused, but she appreciated how her mom helped by staying calm and sharing similar stories from her own life. She encouraged Saachi to connect with other students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups,” Saachi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When Your Kid Is the One Ending Things\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Friendship breakups can also be hard for the person doing the breaking up. Isabel, 17, ended a friendship in high school. “When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more concerning signs,” Isabel said, adding that their friend would do things without caring about consequences. “That’s where I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Isabel didn’t talk to an adult about it because they had bad experiences with adults brushing it off in the past. They sent a text to end the friendship, then wrestled with guilt and doubt for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Denworth said that’s where parents can help—not by deciding whether a friendship should end, but by helping kids think through how they’re ending it. She recommends that parents check in with kids about whether they are being kind when they break things off with a friend. “That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty,” Denworth said. “And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>If you have more time, you can plan\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis’s son is facing another friend’s move this year, but this time, she’s planning ahead. Knowing her son and how deep his reactions were when his last friend moved away is making her think about ways that she can support him during what she knows will be a hard transition. “We’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time for them to be together,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is helping her son and his friend make time to create things so that they both have tangible memories of the friendship. Additionally they are planning for what her son might send his friend when the friend moves away. “So that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of the joy in their friendship,” added Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is also ensuring lines of communication like texting or online messaging are established so that her son and his friend can communicate after the move, even if their communication eventually peters out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many parents, Davis is figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing. So far, there is no perfect formula. “We need to be prepared to support him and who he is and the reactions that he’s going to have,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3169186124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Think back to when you were a kid—did you ever have a good friend move away? One day you’re hanging out at recess, planning your next sleepover, and then suddenly… they’re just gone. No more playdates, No more inside jokes, and no say in the matter. How unfair is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Leanne Davis, a parent in Washington State, watched her 10 year old son go through exactly that not too long ago WHEN His good friend moved to Spain. To Leanne’s surprise, her son grieved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> He made himself a sad playlist on Spotify. He listens to his playlist when he’s feeling like just really in his emotions about his friend and like his friend leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She caught him listening to it at night, crying himself to sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> It just kind of crushed me and then I realized like how important this these friendships were and it actually wasn’t something that we were talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Today on MindShift, we’re diving into the ups and downs of friendship breakups—and how the adults in kids’ lives can help them navigate it. We’ll hear from Leanne, researchers, and teens about how to strike the right balance. All that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a kid loses a friend, it can feel heartbreaking—for them and for the parent trying to support them. But these shifts in friendship are not only common they are actually expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Science journalist Lydia Denworth has spent years researching how friendships develop and function throughout all stages of life. She says that friendship during adolescence — a period neuroscientists define as spanning ages 10 to 25 — is especially unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> In adolescence in particular, the brain is. Undergoing a lot of change. Most of which makes you far more attentive to social cues, to friendship, to what everybody else is doing, what they might think of you. And it’s just it’s all about friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That hyper-focus on friends is biological. And it’s a growing up process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We want adolescents to begin to explore life outside their immediate family. We want them to learn to be independent and to take some risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And the focus on friends and the importance of their social lives is part of that. It’s finding their way in the larger social world and making sense of their own identity within that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s common for students to go through big friendship breakups when they are going through a school transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>One of the studies that I think is most surprising was done with thousands of middle schoolers in the Los Angeles School Unified School District, and they found that two thirds of sixth graders changed friends from September to June.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Kids make friends where they spend their time—on the soccer field, in the band room, at robotics club. And as interests change, friendships can too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>When kids are going through it, or if you went through that in sixth grade or seventh grade, you thought it was only you, right? That was that was losing your friends or feeling at sea a little bit or getting interested in—maybe you’re the you were the kid or your kid is the one who is seeking out the new relationships. But the the really important message is just how normal that is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, a 14 year old from Menlo Park, had a close knit group of friends when she started high school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We had come from middle school we all knew each other so we were just like, okay, like we’re gonna stick together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few months into the school year, something shifted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I just noticed like they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> They would be talking to people and then i would try to talk to them, and be like oh hey like what would we like just like telling them about stuff that happened um throughout the school day and then they would just like look at me like oh yeah whatever like uh-huh uh-uh and like quickly like turn away and like dismiss me constantly and i was just like they didn’t really acknowledge my presence anymore. It was as if like I just wasn’t really there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: It was especially painful because their friendship had once felt effortless—full of energy and care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We used to like talk so much like if we had if like one of us had something to say like we would sit there we’d listen we’d have like so much to say about the other person’s like story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When that dynamic disappeared, it left Saachi feeling something she didn’t expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I was kind of sad, but I was more so confused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> I would have liked to know what they were thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>If they had just talked to me you know maybe we would have still been friends i don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Saachi’s case, she was left to piece together what went wrong. In other cases, ending the friendship is a conscious choice. Isabel Daniels, a 17 year old, shared their story\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>I met this friend like pretty much in like middle school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>This friendship, it’s, like, Oh, someone finally understands me and like, we finally see each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Isabel was drawn to their friend’s free spirit—the way they didn’t seem weighed down by other people’s opinions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more like…concerning signs, like that lack of care for how society thinks it’s like a double edged sword and so it’s nice in a way that like, oh, you’re free from these and expectations, but also you don’t. Like you don’t care about consequences, which can lead to a lot of like dangerous behavior. And that’s where I was like, I’m not like comfortable with that. Just because I also don’t like being labeled or having a lot of expectations put on me, it doesn’t mean I’m want to go out of my way and be like a menace in like a not fun and silly way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What began as carefree fun started to feel unsafe. Isabel knew they needed to end the friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>It’s like fun while it lasts, but then you realize that fun comes with a cost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the time came to break things off, Isabel didn’t feel like they could do it in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I unfortunately broke up with this friend over text, blocked their number and then didn’t look back after that which only added to the guilt, because I didn’t give this friend a chance to explain, to give their piece. Like we didn’t have a conversation. I just like sent it, blocked, and then tried to move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Isabel was certain the friendship needed to end, and they haven’t talked to the friend since, but they were left with lingering questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> What if, like, what would this person say? Could have things been different if we both just talked?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though Isabel was grappling with some big questions, they did not reach out for support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was very against asking help, especially from adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>To Isabel, adults didn’t feel like a helpful option. They worried they wouldn’t be understood, or that the advice would miss the nuance of what they were going through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>Things tend to be watered down when you are talking to someone older than you because they view you as like oh you’re just not like fully mentally developed you just haven’t um seen life enough and that this is just part of that, but these are significant moments in our life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had memories of adults falling short when it came to helping with friendships. For example, Isabel has this story from when they were younger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was telling an adult that this kid was being a bit too rough with me when we were playing. This kid was a boy so you know what the adults told me? Oh that just means he likes you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lydia Denworth, the science journalist we heard from earlier, has some helpful insights about where adults often go wrong—and what they can do instead. She recommends adults have conversations with kids about friendship before things go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We should be talking about that at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test or, you know, whether you got the main lead role in the musical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities and what they’re doing. And we put pressure on those things and we want to know about their friends too, but what we don’t realize is that\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We can help kids understand that friendship is a set of social skills and that it is those are skills that we benefit from practice and that kids don’t necessarily come into the world having all of them ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Defining what a good and healthy friendship looks like early on can not only help them have stronger friendships, but also better romantic and family relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> A really good quality friendship has three things. It’s long lasting, it’s positive and it’s cooperative. So that means that a good friend is a steady, stable presence in your life. They make you feel good. So they’re kind. They say nice things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And then the co operative piece is the reciprocity, the the back and forth, the helpfulness, the sort of showing up and listening and and not having a relationship that’s lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And just because someone’s been your friend for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re still a good friend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The longer term relationships we often just sort of stick with because we have that shared history piece. But if they’re not positive any more, if they’re not making you feel better, then they might not be a really healthy relationship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a child is experiencing a friendship breakup, Lydia suggests adults resist the urge to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>You can’t necessarily just make it all better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We need to understand that kids need to go through these experiences and this process. But where adults can be helpful is by providing some context, by talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That also means validating the pain kids are feeling. It’ll be hard, but don’t jump in and convince kids that it isn’t a big deal. Downplaying the situation is well intentioned but it can backfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>I spoke earlier about how much the adolescent brain is changing. It’s almost at the same level that a toddler’s brain is changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The result is that not only are they really primed for social things, but they’re also their emotions are literally heightened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Friendship is everything. And so when it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words the feelings that kids are bringing to their social relationships are real for them and they aren’t the same for us adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Literally our brains are responding differently and knowing that should help us have more empathy\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> I’d say, Yeah, this really hurts. You know, I’m. And then just just let it, let it hurt like and, but be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And if a child wants to keep talking you can follow their lead by sharing your own experiences with friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Talk about maybe a time that you had a friendship that that fell apart or where somebody got hurt and what you did to mend it if you did or or why you didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, the freshman I talked to earlier, told me that she appreciated the way her mom did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> My mom she’s always been a very like calm individual like it takes a lot to tip her over the edge like she’s very like she wasn’t freaking out because she’s had a lot of like life experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She’s like i had friends like that like i dealt with that and it’s just like she was calm and that made me calm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When her mom said she’d eventually make new friends who treated her better, Saachi wasn’t so sure. But she tried to talk to new people in her classes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She was right, because I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>If your child is the one ending a friendship, it’s worth checking in—not to control their choice, but to help them think through how they’re doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Are they being kind? Are they being thoughtful? That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But but there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s return to Leanne Davis, the mom we heard from earlier. When she saw how hard her son took the loss, she realized she’d underestimated the seriousness of childhood friendships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> I moved a lot as an adult. My husband moved a a lot and I think we were tending, it took us a couple steps to be like, well, wait a minute, this is this kid and this kid is very different than other kid and. very different than maybe how we would do this. I need to be prepared to support him and who he is and like the reactions that he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This year another one of her son’s friends is moving away. And …this kid can’t catch a break…his friend is moving to Australia. But this time, Leanne is thinking about it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Now, knowing that this is happening and this is gonna be really rough we’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time, for them to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s helping him make memories—something tangible to remember the friendship by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Finding ways to like document some of their memories and things they’re doing together. Like he and I are planning for what would he like to send his friend when his friend leaves, or something that he’d like to make that, you know, that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of like the joy in their friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And she’s also planning for what happens after the move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis: \u003c/strong>He does text his friends, like on, he can like message him from the computer. So making sure that they’re able to communicate that way. and that it’s established before they leave, knowing that it may eventually fade out, but that that’s a way for them to know that they can get in touch with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Like so many parents, Leanne’s figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And maybe that’s the real work of showing up for kids—not having the perfect response, but staying close enough to notice what they need, and giving them space to figure the rest out themselves. Because in the end, friendship breakups are just part of growing up. But having someone who sees you through it can make all the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
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"onourwatch": {
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"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"perspectives": {
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"planet-money": {
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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},
"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
"airtime": "SAT 4pm-5pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/reveal",
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"rss": "http://feeds.revealradio.org/revealpodcast"
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