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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the first semester at ARISE High School in Oakland, several teachers have bandages on their fingertips as part of their jobs. It’s not because of a sudden rise in paper cuts. It’s because students have started practicing finger pricks as part of a phlebotomy certification program and teachers are their willing clientele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re getting stuck on a weekly basis,” said John Warren, ARISE’s director of community learning and engagement. “We’re literally offering up our blood to our students in order to give them practice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. Once students pass their requirements, they can become certified phlebotomists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3636485791\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phlebotomy is just one of several career-focused offerings at ARISE as part of its \u003ca href=\"https://www.ousd.org/high-school-linked-learning-office\">Linked Learning program\u003c/a>, California’s version of career and technical education, often called CTE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the country, \u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/10/03/will-students-benefit-with-career-technical-education-at-labor-department/\">schools are expanding career\u003c/a> and technical education. These programs connect academic learning to industries such as healthcare, construction, information technology and advanced manufacturing. For some students, they lead directly to jobs. For others, they provide confidence, direction and a clearer sense of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal ultimately is that students are asking far less often, ‘Why do I have to learn this?'” Warren said. “We’re making those connections so they understand how what they’re learning relates to what they might do in the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66457\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66457\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1030\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-160x141.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-768x676.jpeg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>College or Career? Increasingly, Schools Say Both\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Career education has often been treated as secondary to college-preparatory academics. But that framing is changing as programs like agriculture or manufacturing courses lead to more advanced pathways like networking, engineering or healthcare training. “The purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in an applied setting,” said Thomas Torre Gibney, a research scientist at WestEd who studies college and career readiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of real-world learning can help students understand why academic skills matter. Math, communication, biology, teamwork and professionalism stop feeling abstract when students can see how they are used in a workplace setting that may be part of their near future. In phlebotomy, for example, students learn that 50-70% of all medical diagnoses rely on the results of the blood draws, making the accuracy of a blood draw critically important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As college costs rise and families consider whether debt is worthwhile, \u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/10/03/will-students-benefit-with-career-technical-education-at-labor-department/\">more attention has turned to alternatives\u003c/a> and complements to the traditional four-year route. While research still shows that a college degree pays off and leads to higher earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma, researchers and educators increasingly say CTE does not need to be an either/or choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s another camp out there,” Torre Gibney said, “that sees no distinction between post-secondary preparation and CTE programming.” In that model, “CTE is preparation for college and career with the emphasis on the ‘and.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students might earn an industry credential in high school, begin working, then return later for more education. Others may use early career experience to confirm they want to pursue a degree. This concept is often described as \u003ca href=\"https://octae.ed.gov/cte/initiatives/credentials\">stackable credentials\u003c/a>: education that can build over time instead of requiring one uninterrupted path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rhode Island has emerged as one of the states experimenting with this model. The state has expanded career pathways in areas including aquaponics, green energy, aviation, pre-medicine and cosmetology, while maintaining college-preparatory requirements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“College is still our north star,” said Angélica Infante-Green, commissioner of the Rhode Island Department of Education at the \u003ca href=\"https://ewa.org/\">Education Writers Association\u003c/a> conference in June. The goal, she said, is to expand students’ options, not limit them. “We don’t want to send the message that one is more important than the other.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At ARISE, students are required to take at least two dual-enrollment college courses alongside their career pathway classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They graduate ARISE feeling like they’re familiar with college-level rigor,” Warren said. That familiarity can be especially important for first-generation college students. Rather than stepping into something entirely unfamiliar after high school, college becomes a continuation of a path they’ve already begun.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A Classroom Where the Work Is Real\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At another phlebotomy training course in San Jose, students from Summit-Tahoma High School spend two weeks learning how to draw blood. When students go around to introduce themselves in a class that includes 14 high schoolers, many talk about an interest in pursuing medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66455\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 252px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-66455\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9937.jpeg\" alt=\"Woman smiling for portrait.\" width=\"252\" height=\"280\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Lowe works at Bay Area Medical Academy, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. (Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On the first day, instructor Tracy Lowe asks for a volunteer. She works for the \u003ca href=\"https://bamasf.edu/\">Bay Area Medical Academy\u003c/a>, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. The rest of the students gather around as she demonstrates a blood draw, expertly tying a tourniquet, locating a vein, disinfecting the skin and inserting a needle into the student’s arm. Soon, the students will be doing the same thing themselves. One of their first in class assignments is to practice tying tourniquets on each others’ upper arms and they are instructed to practice tying the stretchy blue bands around their thighs as homework that evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next two weeks they’ll learn how to identify veins, handle medical equipment, follow sterile procedures and perform blood draws under close supervision from clinical instructors. Unlike many academic classes, mistakes are expected. Only one student, a junior named Olivia, successfully completes a blood draw on her first day.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why Exposure Matters\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For educators like Devonna Alatorre, who oversees CTE programs at Summit-Tahoma High School, the point is bigger than one certification. “My focus within it is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school,” she said. “It gives students an opportunity to have a concrete entryway into healthcare,” Alatorre said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She doesn’t see college and career preparation as opposites. “We see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teenagers are often asked to make big postsecondary decisions with limited firsthand knowledge of different careers. CTE can change that. A student who enjoys working with patients may discover a pathway into nursing, medical assisting or laboratory work. Another may realize that blood, needles or clinical environments are not for them. “I know for sure I want to be a nurse,” said Olivia, the Summit-Tahoma student who made the successful blood draw. “I think this will help me get there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many educators argue that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66081/young-employed-and-unhappy\">changing your mind can be just as valuable\u003c/a> as confirming a career goal. Research on career pathways suggests that students often carry forward skills, confidence and self-knowledge even when they ultimately choose a different field. Both outcomes are useful. Instead of guessing about the future, students gain evidence. “Our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success,” said Alatorre\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That may mean college for some students. For others, it may mean work, apprenticeships, certificates or a combination of all three over time. And in one classroom, it may mean something even more immediate: A high school student confidently saying, “Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3636485791\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You’re listening to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our story begins in a classroom. But probably not the kind you’re used to. Definitely not the kind I’m used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this high school classroom, there are desks with needles, tourniquets, and blood vials. 10 students from Summit Tahoma high school in San Jose gather around a table at the front of the room .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Everyone’s here for phlebotomy. Like everyone’s here in the same place, everyone’s for the same reason. We’re all taking phlebotomy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Meaning drawing blood, And it is taught by Tracy Lowe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It’s my job and my opportunity and it’s really my pleasure to be able to instruct this class for you. [00:19:08][5.2]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here Tracy leans forward to tap the desk in front of her for emphasis\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys are in a phlebotomy class, which means we are going to start phlebotomy today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students look on for their first demonstration. Tracy will walk them through how to draw blood. She starts by making sure everything is exactly where she needs it.\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: line-through\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> We have these caddies here, and we supply you with the equipment that you’ll need for the day. [00:16:31][6.0]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I take a peek into the caddy. It has a bunch of tubes with colored caps and alcohol wipes, and several capped needles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I draw someone’s blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s the first day of a two week long course. But a brave soul raises his hand and walks to the front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right, can he sit in your seat? and I’m going to show you guys so come on up come on up, gather around. I’m gonna show you guys the…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy demonstrates the way she wants her students to start: warm, confident, and clear. She introduces herself, states her intention and asks for consent all in a matter of seconds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name’s Tracey. I’m here from the lab. Do you mind if I draw your blood? Yes. OK, cool. Which arm do you want to use?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The volunteer says either arm is fine. And after Tracy takes a look at both arms she lays the right one on top of the sterile surface..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Alright. I’m going to get everything set up. I’m gonna get my gloves on. So sanitize my hands, get my glove on. I’m getting everything I need. We use alcohol wipes…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy takes out an alcohol wipe, needle, tape with a little cotton ball stuck to it, and a tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The tourniquet goes on tight enough to restrict the venous access. It helps to plump the veins up. And a good tourniquet is gonna be your number one asset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She ties it snugly around his forearm. And tells students where the needle will go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Typically we’re going to try and draw here in what’s called the antecubital region which is right here. Nimah Gobir: She points to an area on the inside of the elbow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> When you’re feeling for a vein. I want you not to be shy. You’ve got to mush your finger and we call it palpating, okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She presses at the arm with gloved fingertips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So we’re going to palpate for the vein by pushing your finger in. Once you feel the vein, I want to you to commit to the entire area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She finds what she’s looking for AND she starts tapping lightly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The veins should feel like you have like a water balloon and you’re tapping it. It’s gonna like spring back at you. It’s like bouncy and springy and spongy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe: \u003c/strong> I’m just going to take my wipe and wipe down. Throw that out. Alcohol and trash goes in there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy picks up her needle, and the whole class seems to move in a bit to get a better look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to do this at a 30 degree angle and 30 degrees means I’m going to be able to go in like this and kind of arrive at where these fingers are touching on the patient’s skin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the needle first goes in nothing happens. That’s normal. Tracy adjusts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You’re like oh my gosh what do I do I’ll tell you what you do you take your finger and you feel gently where’s the vein right there over there so what I need to do is come back just like that see how easy that was to it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She repositions the needle. All at once, the tube that was attached to the needle starts to fill up with dark red blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to switch out my tube by putting a finger here to balance it, pull that off, and I put my second tube on there. [00:24:19][9.1]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the students faints. They get her seated in a chair. She’s a little shaken, but okay. And this happens.The sight of blood can make people woozy. But it’s also a reminder: this is real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This isn’t a classroom where they talk about doing things — they actually do them. And starting on this first day they’ll begin drawing blood themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>My name is Angela. You can call me Angie. You don’t have to call me instructor Angie. That’s a long title.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Angie is one of the clinical instructors that will work with students on their blood draws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>I am an EMT. I’ve been an EMT since 2008. I decided to go back to phlebotomy school years ago to increase my value. To be an emergency room technician so then I took a phlebotomy. I did a phlebotomy then I became a phlebotomy lab instructor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The class is still buzzing from what just happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong> Welcome to the real world of phlebotomy school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong> OK, so of course, now everybody’s like, OMG, right? It happens. Prime example, it can happen just like that when you’re working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>Where are the tourniquets? Let’s go. Let’s practice those first because we can’t draw a thing without one. So everybody grab a blue tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Each student grabs a stretchy blue tourniquet and watches Angie demonstrate how to tie it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: Y\u003c/strong>ou bring it even enough, you grab with this hand, You pull, and you let go.. Yeah, I made that look really easy, right? I know. So everybody grab a partner…and let’s do that first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>They pair up and practice tying tourniquets around each other’s arms.They know from watching Tracy that this small step makes everything else possible. We’ll check back in on their progress later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this phlebotomy course students are handling materials, practicing, and messing up. This all falls under what is called career and technical education – known as CTE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE is a remarkably common feature of American high schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thomas Torre Gibney works at west ed, a research organization. He studies career and technical education for high schoolers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So CTE as an elective course can range from anything from intro to agricultural science, to intro to manufacturing, to more advanced coursework that might be applied in a specific program of study, like phlebotomy or networking in an information technology program of studies\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Most CTE programs are designed around specific industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> And the purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in typically like an applied setting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And in many cases—like this phlebotomy class—these programs are built directly into the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: CTE itself has been changing. And lately, it’s been getting more attention\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So nowadays what we’re seeing is a real public debate around the value of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Normal American families are asking hard questions about whether taking on the debt to attain a college degree is worth it in the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Especially as people become more scared of AI taking jobs.Research still shows that having a college degree pays off,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Students who have a college degree tend to outperform their peers in the labor market. They have higher lifetime average earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But CTE doesn’t have to be an alternative to college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE has historically suffered from a stigma. Historically we’ve seen that students who were considered to be quote-unquote not college material would disproportionately be routed into these programs in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That history still shapes how people think about CTE today. And it’s something educators, researchers, and policymakers are actively trying to undo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way educators are trying to bridge that divide is through something called stackable credentials.These are certifications that build on one another\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So a lot of states are trying to think deeply about what do stackable credentials look like such that students could have on ramps and off ramps into their post-secondary study as it suits their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s what that can look like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Maybe a student concentrates in a carpentry program of study in high school and due to, you know, financial concerns they might opt to go directly into the labor market right out of high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> They need to earn money instead of taking on debt and going into higher education program. Well, the idea is that let’s say that student, you know, takes part in an apprenticeship, they get some certification that has value in the labor market. At a later time in their life they may decide to go back to school and go in a different direction or build on that credential and say, okay, you know, actually, I really want to be a general contractor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So I’d like to go on and get a bachelor’s degree in construction management, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words: a student meets the needs of their life in the moment. Goes to work, build experience and later return to school when it makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna Alatorre is in charge of Summit Tahoma High School’ s CTE programs—that’s where the students from the phlebotomy class go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre\u003c/strong>: My focus is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nimah Gobir: This is the school’s first year sending students off-campus for phlebotomy training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre: \u003c/strong>It gives students an opportunity to have like a concrete entryway into healthcare, which as we know is like a field with strong demand. It gives them a certification pathway and an opportunity to continue learning essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna doesn’t see CTE and college as opposite pathways\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Honestly, we see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some students, phlebotomy might be the job they stick with for their whole career. For others, it’s a first step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Something like Phlebotomy doesn’t close doors or narrow the pathway for them, it is opening up opportunities for them. And students are gaining context for what they’re studying, motivation for why academics matter, and sometimes even a clearer sense of purpose with these types of opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The goal isn’t necessarily to produce lifelong phlebotomists. It’s to send students forward with skills, habits, and a clearer sense of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> And our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a short break. And when we get back we’ll see what the students are up to\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The blood draws might be the most dramatic part of this program, but there’s more to the job. To do phlebotomy, you also have to handle patients. Tracy the phlebotomy instructor talks to the students about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient comes with a unique experience. Every patient comes a unique backstory. Every patient has a unique set of feelings about getting their blood drawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I will also say this. Most patients don’t love it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says that if you do phlebotomy you’ll be performing blood draws on people of a variety of ages, backgrounds and relationship to healthcare. And some of these people are getting their blood drawn because they want answers about their health. She writes some stats on the whiteboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> 50 to 70% of all of the diagnosis, stems from the results of the blood draw, which is a huge amount of emphasis put on the results of the blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So even though we have quick interactions with the patient, it counts for a lot, like, it’s weighted very heavily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You might remember how Tracy began the very first demonstration: by introducing herself and asking permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It really begins and ends with tell me your name, tell me you did a birth, let’s take a look at your arm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though it is quick and they might see 50 different people that day. Each patient needs to be treated like the most important person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient in front you has the need to have your exceptional and undivided attention on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means professionalism. Students should wear their badges, pronounce names correctly and use the right gender pronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The engagement that you have with the patient can really be the difference with them feeling like, hey, I felt seen this time, I heard this time. I felt like I was acknowledged as a person, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys get to be the changing face of health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I return towards the end of their two week program, students are more comfortable.They’ve been drawing each others blood for about 10 days. Some have small bruises called hematomas from early mistakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’m amazed by how close they’ve become to each other. They’re teenagers, so their friend groups are still intact, but this class has brought them physically close in a different way: They know each other’s veins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Alyssa’s arm is pretty good. Some hands are better, like Kai’s hands, I was able to get hers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia is a 17 year old senior. She was actually able to have a successful draw on her first day, which is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> We came in from lunch, she’s talking, she was like, okay, who’s ready to do blood draw? So I’m like, ooh. I did draw the first. I was the only student to draw on the day with Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> By now, she’s confident.So when I ask her if she’s comfortable drawing my blood. She gives me a little shrug and says okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Okay, you want to sit down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She treats me like a real patient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia\u003c/strong>: Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today. Could I get blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> Yes, you may. Thank you. Thanks for asking. Of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Um, can I get your name and date of birth?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I gave it. I’m a Saittarius\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Do you, are you prone to fainting when getting blood drawn?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> No, fortunately not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As she preps her station. she makes some small talk with me about my work—just like at my doctor’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I’m just going to check your veins right now. I’m going to put the tourniquet on and then I’ll do some palpating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s feeling for a bounce like they’re been taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> So you have a vein right here going upward. It’s decently long. So I’ll do this arm. I want you to put your, put your fist, and you’re going to put it underneath. So you can keep your arm nice and straight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A small pinch tells me she’s put the needle in but I’m looking away trying to be as still as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> You okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And …nothing happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I think it rolled, oddly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A rolled vein just means it moved—something that happens more often than you’d think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She calls over Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>Angie?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I think she rolled. I don’t know if you can feel it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>This is great. This is this is great for you because then you say, you know, I can’t get it. I’m sorry you’re vein rolled…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m sorry, your vein rolled over. Can I see your other arm?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Take two. I roll up my other sleeve and position my arm on the table. When Oliva identifies the vein in this arms she lets me know that it looks a little smaller, but she’s going to give it a shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>There we go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Wow. Olivia! Okayyy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I watch my blood start to fill the tube—dark red, faster than I expect. After she tapes a cotton ball to my arm, she hands me my sealed tube of blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>And then your blood is really warm. It’s really warm as soon as it comes out your body it’s really warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>It’s so creepy.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After taking this two week course students can decide to take a certification exam.Those who pass the exam and want to continue can return here for an externship. Which means they’ll come back to this facility to practice blood draws until they fulfill their requirement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia plans to continue\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m quite enjoying the class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For her, phlebotomy is part of her bigger career goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I decided to do this program because I know for sure I want be a nurse, so trying to work towards that. And I think this will help me get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This phlebotomy class has given students like Olivia confidence, skills, and momentum before they ever set foot in a college lecture hall. For other students, the takeaway is different. Some realize that blood, needles, and clinical settings aren’t for them. All of that is valuable information. changing your mind can be part of the point—students still leave with transferable skills and a clearer sense of what kinds of work fit them best.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The exposure lends itself to clarity. By the time they graduate high school, they won’t just be guessing about what fields they’re interested in pursuing. They’ll have evidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Why Hands-On Career Training and Academics Go Hand-in-Hand | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript. At the end of the first semester at ARISE High School in Oakland, several teachers have bandages on their fingertips as part of their jobs. It’s not because of a sudden rise in paper cuts. It’s because students have started practicing finger pricks as part of a phlebotomy certification program and teachers are their willing clientele. “We're getting stuck on a weekly basis,” said John Warren, ARISE’s director of community learning and engagement. “We're literally offering up our blood to our students in order to give them practice.” Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the first semester at ARISE High School in Oakland, several teachers have bandages on their fingertips as part of their jobs. It’s not because of a sudden rise in paper cuts. It’s because students have started practicing finger pricks as part of a phlebotomy certification program and teachers are their willing clientele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re getting stuck on a weekly basis,” said John Warren, ARISE’s director of community learning and engagement. “We’re literally offering up our blood to our students in order to give them practice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. Once students pass their requirements, they can become certified phlebotomists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3636485791\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phlebotomy is just one of several career-focused offerings at ARISE as part of its \u003ca href=\"https://www.ousd.org/high-school-linked-learning-office\">Linked Learning program\u003c/a>, California’s version of career and technical education, often called CTE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the country, \u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/10/03/will-students-benefit-with-career-technical-education-at-labor-department/\">schools are expanding career\u003c/a> and technical education. These programs connect academic learning to industries such as healthcare, construction, information technology and advanced manufacturing. For some students, they lead directly to jobs. For others, they provide confidence, direction and a clearer sense of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal ultimately is that students are asking far less often, ‘Why do I have to learn this?'” Warren said. “We’re making those connections so they understand how what they’re learning relates to what they might do in the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66457\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66457\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1030\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-160x141.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-768x676.jpeg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>College or Career? Increasingly, Schools Say Both\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Career education has often been treated as secondary to college-preparatory academics. But that framing is changing as programs like agriculture or manufacturing courses lead to more advanced pathways like networking, engineering or healthcare training. “The purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in an applied setting,” said Thomas Torre Gibney, a research scientist at WestEd who studies college and career readiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of real-world learning can help students understand why academic skills matter. Math, communication, biology, teamwork and professionalism stop feeling abstract when students can see how they are used in a workplace setting that may be part of their near future. In phlebotomy, for example, students learn that 50-70% of all medical diagnoses rely on the results of the blood draws, making the accuracy of a blood draw critically important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As college costs rise and families consider whether debt is worthwhile, \u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/10/03/will-students-benefit-with-career-technical-education-at-labor-department/\">more attention has turned to alternatives\u003c/a> and complements to the traditional four-year route. While research still shows that a college degree pays off and leads to higher earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma, researchers and educators increasingly say CTE does not need to be an either/or choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s another camp out there,” Torre Gibney said, “that sees no distinction between post-secondary preparation and CTE programming.” In that model, “CTE is preparation for college and career with the emphasis on the ‘and.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students might earn an industry credential in high school, begin working, then return later for more education. Others may use early career experience to confirm they want to pursue a degree. This concept is often described as \u003ca href=\"https://octae.ed.gov/cte/initiatives/credentials\">stackable credentials\u003c/a>: education that can build over time instead of requiring one uninterrupted path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rhode Island has emerged as one of the states experimenting with this model. The state has expanded career pathways in areas including aquaponics, green energy, aviation, pre-medicine and cosmetology, while maintaining college-preparatory requirements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“College is still our north star,” said Angélica Infante-Green, commissioner of the Rhode Island Department of Education at the \u003ca href=\"https://ewa.org/\">Education Writers Association\u003c/a> conference in June. The goal, she said, is to expand students’ options, not limit them. “We don’t want to send the message that one is more important than the other.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At ARISE, students are required to take at least two dual-enrollment college courses alongside their career pathway classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They graduate ARISE feeling like they’re familiar with college-level rigor,” Warren said. That familiarity can be especially important for first-generation college students. Rather than stepping into something entirely unfamiliar after high school, college becomes a continuation of a path they’ve already begun.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A Classroom Where the Work Is Real\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At another phlebotomy training course in San Jose, students from Summit-Tahoma High School spend two weeks learning how to draw blood. When students go around to introduce themselves in a class that includes 14 high schoolers, many talk about an interest in pursuing medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66455\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 252px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-66455\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9937.jpeg\" alt=\"Woman smiling for portrait.\" width=\"252\" height=\"280\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Lowe works at Bay Area Medical Academy, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. (Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On the first day, instructor Tracy Lowe asks for a volunteer. She works for the \u003ca href=\"https://bamasf.edu/\">Bay Area Medical Academy\u003c/a>, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. The rest of the students gather around as she demonstrates a blood draw, expertly tying a tourniquet, locating a vein, disinfecting the skin and inserting a needle into the student’s arm. Soon, the students will be doing the same thing themselves. One of their first in class assignments is to practice tying tourniquets on each others’ upper arms and they are instructed to practice tying the stretchy blue bands around their thighs as homework that evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next two weeks they’ll learn how to identify veins, handle medical equipment, follow sterile procedures and perform blood draws under close supervision from clinical instructors. Unlike many academic classes, mistakes are expected. Only one student, a junior named Olivia, successfully completes a blood draw on her first day.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why Exposure Matters\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For educators like Devonna Alatorre, who oversees CTE programs at Summit-Tahoma High School, the point is bigger than one certification. “My focus within it is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school,” she said. “It gives students an opportunity to have a concrete entryway into healthcare,” Alatorre said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She doesn’t see college and career preparation as opposites. “We see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teenagers are often asked to make big postsecondary decisions with limited firsthand knowledge of different careers. CTE can change that. A student who enjoys working with patients may discover a pathway into nursing, medical assisting or laboratory work. Another may realize that blood, needles or clinical environments are not for them. “I know for sure I want to be a nurse,” said Olivia, the Summit-Tahoma student who made the successful blood draw. “I think this will help me get there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many educators argue that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66081/young-employed-and-unhappy\">changing your mind can be just as valuable\u003c/a> as confirming a career goal. Research on career pathways suggests that students often carry forward skills, confidence and self-knowledge even when they ultimately choose a different field. Both outcomes are useful. Instead of guessing about the future, students gain evidence. “Our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success,” said Alatorre\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That may mean college for some students. For others, it may mean work, apprenticeships, certificates or a combination of all three over time. And in one classroom, it may mean something even more immediate: A high school student confidently saying, “Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3636485791\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You’re listening to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our story begins in a classroom. But probably not the kind you’re used to. Definitely not the kind I’m used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this high school classroom, there are desks with needles, tourniquets, and blood vials. 10 students from Summit Tahoma high school in San Jose gather around a table at the front of the room .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Everyone’s here for phlebotomy. Like everyone’s here in the same place, everyone’s for the same reason. We’re all taking phlebotomy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Meaning drawing blood, And it is taught by Tracy Lowe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It’s my job and my opportunity and it’s really my pleasure to be able to instruct this class for you. [00:19:08][5.2]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here Tracy leans forward to tap the desk in front of her for emphasis\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys are in a phlebotomy class, which means we are going to start phlebotomy today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students look on for their first demonstration. Tracy will walk them through how to draw blood. She starts by making sure everything is exactly where she needs it.\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: line-through\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> We have these caddies here, and we supply you with the equipment that you’ll need for the day. [00:16:31][6.0]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I take a peek into the caddy. It has a bunch of tubes with colored caps and alcohol wipes, and several capped needles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I draw someone’s blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s the first day of a two week long course. But a brave soul raises his hand and walks to the front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right, can he sit in your seat? and I’m going to show you guys so come on up come on up, gather around. I’m gonna show you guys the…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy demonstrates the way she wants her students to start: warm, confident, and clear. She introduces herself, states her intention and asks for consent all in a matter of seconds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name’s Tracey. I’m here from the lab. Do you mind if I draw your blood? Yes. OK, cool. Which arm do you want to use?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The volunteer says either arm is fine. And after Tracy takes a look at both arms she lays the right one on top of the sterile surface..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Alright. I’m going to get everything set up. I’m gonna get my gloves on. So sanitize my hands, get my glove on. I’m getting everything I need. We use alcohol wipes…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy takes out an alcohol wipe, needle, tape with a little cotton ball stuck to it, and a tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The tourniquet goes on tight enough to restrict the venous access. It helps to plump the veins up. And a good tourniquet is gonna be your number one asset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She ties it snugly around his forearm. And tells students where the needle will go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Typically we’re going to try and draw here in what’s called the antecubital region which is right here. Nimah Gobir: She points to an area on the inside of the elbow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> When you’re feeling for a vein. I want you not to be shy. You’ve got to mush your finger and we call it palpating, okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She presses at the arm with gloved fingertips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So we’re going to palpate for the vein by pushing your finger in. Once you feel the vein, I want to you to commit to the entire area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She finds what she’s looking for AND she starts tapping lightly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The veins should feel like you have like a water balloon and you’re tapping it. It’s gonna like spring back at you. It’s like bouncy and springy and spongy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe: \u003c/strong> I’m just going to take my wipe and wipe down. Throw that out. Alcohol and trash goes in there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy picks up her needle, and the whole class seems to move in a bit to get a better look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to do this at a 30 degree angle and 30 degrees means I’m going to be able to go in like this and kind of arrive at where these fingers are touching on the patient’s skin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the needle first goes in nothing happens. That’s normal. Tracy adjusts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You’re like oh my gosh what do I do I’ll tell you what you do you take your finger and you feel gently where’s the vein right there over there so what I need to do is come back just like that see how easy that was to it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She repositions the needle. All at once, the tube that was attached to the needle starts to fill up with dark red blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to switch out my tube by putting a finger here to balance it, pull that off, and I put my second tube on there. [00:24:19][9.1]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the students faints. They get her seated in a chair. She’s a little shaken, but okay. And this happens.The sight of blood can make people woozy. But it’s also a reminder: this is real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This isn’t a classroom where they talk about doing things — they actually do them. And starting on this first day they’ll begin drawing blood themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>My name is Angela. You can call me Angie. You don’t have to call me instructor Angie. That’s a long title.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Angie is one of the clinical instructors that will work with students on their blood draws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>I am an EMT. I’ve been an EMT since 2008. I decided to go back to phlebotomy school years ago to increase my value. To be an emergency room technician so then I took a phlebotomy. I did a phlebotomy then I became a phlebotomy lab instructor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The class is still buzzing from what just happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong> Welcome to the real world of phlebotomy school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong> OK, so of course, now everybody’s like, OMG, right? It happens. Prime example, it can happen just like that when you’re working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>Where are the tourniquets? Let’s go. Let’s practice those first because we can’t draw a thing without one. So everybody grab a blue tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Each student grabs a stretchy blue tourniquet and watches Angie demonstrate how to tie it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: Y\u003c/strong>ou bring it even enough, you grab with this hand, You pull, and you let go.. Yeah, I made that look really easy, right? I know. So everybody grab a partner…and let’s do that first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>They pair up and practice tying tourniquets around each other’s arms.They know from watching Tracy that this small step makes everything else possible. We’ll check back in on their progress later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this phlebotomy course students are handling materials, practicing, and messing up. This all falls under what is called career and technical education – known as CTE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE is a remarkably common feature of American high schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thomas Torre Gibney works at west ed, a research organization. He studies career and technical education for high schoolers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So CTE as an elective course can range from anything from intro to agricultural science, to intro to manufacturing, to more advanced coursework that might be applied in a specific program of study, like phlebotomy or networking in an information technology program of studies\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Most CTE programs are designed around specific industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> And the purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in typically like an applied setting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And in many cases—like this phlebotomy class—these programs are built directly into the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: CTE itself has been changing. And lately, it’s been getting more attention\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So nowadays what we’re seeing is a real public debate around the value of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Normal American families are asking hard questions about whether taking on the debt to attain a college degree is worth it in the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Especially as people become more scared of AI taking jobs.Research still shows that having a college degree pays off,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Students who have a college degree tend to outperform their peers in the labor market. They have higher lifetime average earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But CTE doesn’t have to be an alternative to college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE has historically suffered from a stigma. Historically we’ve seen that students who were considered to be quote-unquote not college material would disproportionately be routed into these programs in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That history still shapes how people think about CTE today. And it’s something educators, researchers, and policymakers are actively trying to undo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way educators are trying to bridge that divide is through something called stackable credentials.These are certifications that build on one another\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So a lot of states are trying to think deeply about what do stackable credentials look like such that students could have on ramps and off ramps into their post-secondary study as it suits their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s what that can look like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Maybe a student concentrates in a carpentry program of study in high school and due to, you know, financial concerns they might opt to go directly into the labor market right out of high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> They need to earn money instead of taking on debt and going into higher education program. Well, the idea is that let’s say that student, you know, takes part in an apprenticeship, they get some certification that has value in the labor market. At a later time in their life they may decide to go back to school and go in a different direction or build on that credential and say, okay, you know, actually, I really want to be a general contractor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So I’d like to go on and get a bachelor’s degree in construction management, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words: a student meets the needs of their life in the moment. Goes to work, build experience and later return to school when it makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna Alatorre is in charge of Summit Tahoma High School’ s CTE programs—that’s where the students from the phlebotomy class go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre\u003c/strong>: My focus is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nimah Gobir: This is the school’s first year sending students off-campus for phlebotomy training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre: \u003c/strong>It gives students an opportunity to have like a concrete entryway into healthcare, which as we know is like a field with strong demand. It gives them a certification pathway and an opportunity to continue learning essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna doesn’t see CTE and college as opposite pathways\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Honestly, we see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some students, phlebotomy might be the job they stick with for their whole career. For others, it’s a first step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Something like Phlebotomy doesn’t close doors or narrow the pathway for them, it is opening up opportunities for them. And students are gaining context for what they’re studying, motivation for why academics matter, and sometimes even a clearer sense of purpose with these types of opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The goal isn’t necessarily to produce lifelong phlebotomists. It’s to send students forward with skills, habits, and a clearer sense of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> And our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a short break. And when we get back we’ll see what the students are up to\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The blood draws might be the most dramatic part of this program, but there’s more to the job. To do phlebotomy, you also have to handle patients. Tracy the phlebotomy instructor talks to the students about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient comes with a unique experience. Every patient comes a unique backstory. Every patient has a unique set of feelings about getting their blood drawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I will also say this. Most patients don’t love it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says that if you do phlebotomy you’ll be performing blood draws on people of a variety of ages, backgrounds and relationship to healthcare. And some of these people are getting their blood drawn because they want answers about their health. She writes some stats on the whiteboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> 50 to 70% of all of the diagnosis, stems from the results of the blood draw, which is a huge amount of emphasis put on the results of the blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So even though we have quick interactions with the patient, it counts for a lot, like, it’s weighted very heavily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You might remember how Tracy began the very first demonstration: by introducing herself and asking permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It really begins and ends with tell me your name, tell me you did a birth, let’s take a look at your arm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though it is quick and they might see 50 different people that day. Each patient needs to be treated like the most important person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient in front you has the need to have your exceptional and undivided attention on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means professionalism. Students should wear their badges, pronounce names correctly and use the right gender pronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The engagement that you have with the patient can really be the difference with them feeling like, hey, I felt seen this time, I heard this time. I felt like I was acknowledged as a person, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys get to be the changing face of health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I return towards the end of their two week program, students are more comfortable.They’ve been drawing each others blood for about 10 days. Some have small bruises called hematomas from early mistakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’m amazed by how close they’ve become to each other. They’re teenagers, so their friend groups are still intact, but this class has brought them physically close in a different way: They know each other’s veins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Alyssa’s arm is pretty good. Some hands are better, like Kai’s hands, I was able to get hers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia is a 17 year old senior. She was actually able to have a successful draw on her first day, which is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> We came in from lunch, she’s talking, she was like, okay, who’s ready to do blood draw? So I’m like, ooh. I did draw the first. I was the only student to draw on the day with Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> By now, she’s confident.So when I ask her if she’s comfortable drawing my blood. She gives me a little shrug and says okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Okay, you want to sit down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She treats me like a real patient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia\u003c/strong>: Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today. Could I get blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> Yes, you may. Thank you. Thanks for asking. Of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Um, can I get your name and date of birth?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I gave it. I’m a Saittarius\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Do you, are you prone to fainting when getting blood drawn?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> No, fortunately not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As she preps her station. she makes some small talk with me about my work—just like at my doctor’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I’m just going to check your veins right now. I’m going to put the tourniquet on and then I’ll do some palpating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s feeling for a bounce like they’re been taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> So you have a vein right here going upward. It’s decently long. So I’ll do this arm. I want you to put your, put your fist, and you’re going to put it underneath. So you can keep your arm nice and straight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A small pinch tells me she’s put the needle in but I’m looking away trying to be as still as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> You okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And …nothing happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I think it rolled, oddly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A rolled vein just means it moved—something that happens more often than you’d think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She calls over Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>Angie?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I think she rolled. I don’t know if you can feel it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>This is great. This is this is great for you because then you say, you know, I can’t get it. I’m sorry you’re vein rolled…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m sorry, your vein rolled over. Can I see your other arm?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Take two. I roll up my other sleeve and position my arm on the table. When Oliva identifies the vein in this arms she lets me know that it looks a little smaller, but she’s going to give it a shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>There we go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Wow. Olivia! Okayyy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I watch my blood start to fill the tube—dark red, faster than I expect. After she tapes a cotton ball to my arm, she hands me my sealed tube of blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>And then your blood is really warm. It’s really warm as soon as it comes out your body it’s really warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>It’s so creepy.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After taking this two week course students can decide to take a certification exam.Those who pass the exam and want to continue can return here for an externship. Which means they’ll come back to this facility to practice blood draws until they fulfill their requirement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia plans to continue\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m quite enjoying the class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For her, phlebotomy is part of her bigger career goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I decided to do this program because I know for sure I want be a nurse, so trying to work towards that. And I think this will help me get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This phlebotomy class has given students like Olivia confidence, skills, and momentum before they ever set foot in a college lecture hall. For other students, the takeaway is different. Some realize that blood, needles, and clinical settings aren’t for them. All of that is valuable information. changing your mind can be part of the point—students still leave with transferable skills and a clearer sense of what kinds of work fit them best.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The exposure lends itself to clarity. By the time they graduate high school, they won’t just be guessing about what fields they’re interested in pursuing. They’ll have evidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "families-and-teachers-are-questioning-ed-tech-are-schools-and-districts-starting-to-listen",
"title": "Families and Teachers are Questioning Ed Tech. Are Schools and Districts Starting to Listen?",
"publishDate": 1787675143,
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"headTitle": "Families and Teachers are Questioning Ed Tech. Are Schools and Districts Starting to Listen? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Los Angeles parent Lila Byock’s son started middle school, his grades suddenly collapsed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It didn’t make sense. “He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school,” Byock said. She and her husband were confused and concerned.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers assured the family that their son understood the material and the problem wasn’t academics. “They said, ‘He just can’t \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63519/distracted-students-understanding-these-3-myths-of-attention-span-can-help\">stay on task\u003c/a> on his iPad,’” she continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That answer surprised Byock. Like many parents, she assumed that after pandemic remote learning ended, classrooms had largely returned to face-to-face instruction. Instead, she learned her son was spending much of his school day on a district-issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After talking with her son, Byock realized he wasn’t trying to break rules, but rather, he felt trapped by distractions he couldn’t seem to resist. “It was eroding his self-esteem,” she said. “He told us, ‘I want to stop, and I don’t think I can.'”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Byock asked school administrators how devices were being used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66432/little-kids-outsmart-content-blockers-what-can-be-done-about-devices-in-school\">what safeguards existed\u003c/a>, the school’s answers didn’t satisfy her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>The promise of education technology\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, classrooms don’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Esquivel, the issue extends beyond one software program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Some schools are pulling back on tech use\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-768x549.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-1536x1097.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2048x1463.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To understand how schools got to a place where students spend so much of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audrey Watters is a writer and historian who studies education technology. She says the debates we’re having about ed tech today stretch back to way before students were using laptops..\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>You want to be able to develop a machine that can administer, grade, and teach more efficiently, more objectively, than teachers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says that every wave of ed tech promises to improve learning, but underneath those promises is a deep discomfort with how human and unpredictable classrooms actually are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To make one thing clear, teachers have used technology creatively for decades — They might show short videos to illustrate a concept or even take students on a virtual field trip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oftentimes learning with tech is shaped by the companies that make the tools\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Audrey’s argument is that education technology has failed because it was built to standardize learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>While she was going through this, she felt isolated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Molly wants more opportunities for students to interact with each other and with their teacher. She says the difference feels obvious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Compare that to a classroom where every student is working on a device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It means kids have headphones on, their heads are tilted down to look at a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At her organization, EverySchool, she has worked to synthesize research so that teachers don’t have to. A big thing she did that many folks don’t do was that she focused on research that wasn’t funded by people with a stake in these tech tools. A big finding that may surprise you is that there isn’t conclusive evidence saying that tech is making kids smarter or improves learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, we can’t pin this all on edtech. There are a variety of factors that may be contributing, but at a minimum it’s safe to say it isn’t helping. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A lot of schools use ed tech tools \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech and TechEd are not the same thing. But teaching how to using technology, teaching transformative technology skills is not the same thing as using technology to teach every subject. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amy also debunks that EdTech is neutral. You might hear edtech is a tool… like a pencil\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And that brings us back to Lila and her son. Who was definitely not using his ipad like a pencil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>Algebra’s hard. It’s not very hard to scroll YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This is Lila again. Talking about her son. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Since Lila first started asking questions, LAUSD has adopted new limits on student screen time, including restrictions on classroom device use and new options for families to opt out of bringing devices home. It’s a sign that some districts are beginning to rethink their relationship with technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At the smallest pointy tip is Disruptive technology\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>And that’s tech that disrupts learning and breeds habitual use. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning, like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So really it’s something that we encourage educators to use to really to avoid using if possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So, use sparingly and in very specific situations if you do end up needing to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Supportive is the area that supports learning in helpful ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The two words that changed everything were what if. As in, What if they didn’t do school this way anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> School leaders began digging into the research –much of the same research Amy Tyson pointed to— showing that one-to-one devices often fail to deliver on their promises.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Instead of having students carrying Chromebooks all day, McPherson invested in classroom carts to keep devices in the room and had teachers use them only when teachers believed they genuinely add value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>As we came back this school year, we started really training our teachers. This is coming. We’re not sure when. We are unsure exactly the timeline. Actually over the last two days, students have returned to their Chromebooks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This wasn’t a ban. And it wasn’t a rigid policy. It was more of a reset.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So students will actually come back and have zero Chromebook time for their first few weeks in our spring semester. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>All we’ve done is give guidance. Please use them as sparingly as possible. Think about when they really enhance the lesson, enhance the learning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So, over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals or not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Inge is clear-eyed about the limits of this approach. Keeping Chromebooks at school won’t magically solve every problem. But she hopes it’s a start. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What I’m most proud of the work here is that I have a staff who is really brave to try something different. They’re allowing us to make this change knowing that we’re going to face unknowns, we’re going to face challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her hope isn’t that other schools copy McPherson exactly, but that they feel empowered to ask their own “what if” questions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>After talking with her son, Byock realized he wasn’t trying to break rules, but rather, he felt trapped by distractions he couldn’t seem to resist. “It was eroding his self-esteem,” she said. “He told us, ‘I want to stop, and I don’t think I can.'”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs,” she said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Esquivel, the issue extends beyond one software program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For Esquivel, the issue extends beyond one software program.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Some schools are pulling back on tech use",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Some schools are pulling back on tech use\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-768x549.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-1536x1097.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2048x1463.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>music\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To understand how schools got to a place where students spend so much of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audrey Watters is a writer and historian who studies education technology. She says the debates we’re having about ed tech today stretch back to way before students were using laptops..\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>You want to be able to develop a machine that can administer, grade, and teach more efficiently, more objectively, than teachers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says that every wave of ed tech promises to improve learning, but underneath those promises is a deep discomfort with how human and unpredictable classrooms actually are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To make one thing clear, teachers have used technology creatively for decades — They might show short videos to illustrate a concept or even take students on a virtual field trip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oftentimes learning with tech is shaped by the companies that make the tools\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Audrey’s argument is that education technology has failed because it was built to standardize learning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>While she was going through this, she felt isolated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Molly wants more opportunities for students to interact with each other and with their teacher. She says the difference feels obvious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Compare that to a classroom where every student is working on a device.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It means kids have headphones on, their heads are tilted down to look at a screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At her organization, EverySchool, she has worked to synthesize research so that teachers don’t have to. A big thing she did that many folks don’t do was that she focused on research that wasn’t funded by people with a stake in these tech tools. A big finding that may surprise you is that there isn’t conclusive evidence saying that tech is making kids smarter or improves learning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, we can’t pin this all on edtech. There are a variety of factors that may be contributing, but at a minimum it’s safe to say it isn’t helping. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A lot of schools use ed tech tools \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech and TechEd are not the same thing. But teaching how to using technology, teaching transformative technology skills is not the same thing as using technology to teach every subject. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech and TechEd are not the same thing. But teaching how to using technology, teaching transformative technology skills is not the same thing as using technology to teach every subject. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amy also debunks that EdTech is neutral. You might hear edtech is a tool… like a pencil\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And that brings us back to Lila and her son. Who was definitely not using his ipad like a pencil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>Algebra’s hard. It’s not very hard to scroll YouTube. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>Algebra’s hard. It’s not very hard to scroll YouTube. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This is Lila again. Talking about her son. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Since Lila first started asking questions, LAUSD has adopted new limits on student screen time, including restrictions on classroom device use and new options for families to opt out of bringing devices home. It’s a sign that some districts are beginning to rethink their relationship with technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At the smallest pointy tip is Disruptive technology\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>And that’s tech that disrupts learning and breeds habitual use. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning, like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning, like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So really it’s something that we encourage educators to use to really to avoid using if possible. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So really it’s something that we encourage educators to use to really to avoid using if possible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So, use sparingly and in very specific situations if you do end up needing to use it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So, use sparingly and in very specific situations if you do end up needing to use it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Supportive is the area that supports learning in helpful ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Supportive is the area that supports learning in helpful ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The two words that changed everything were what if. As in, What if they didn’t do school this way anymore?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> School leaders began digging into the research –much of the same research Amy Tyson pointed to— showing that one-to-one devices often fail to deliver on their promises.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Instead of having students carrying Chromebooks all day, McPherson invested in classroom carts to keep devices in the room and had teachers use them only when teachers believed they genuinely add value.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>As we came back this school year, we started really training our teachers. This is coming. We’re not sure when. We are unsure exactly the timeline. Actually over the last two days, students have returned to their Chromebooks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This wasn’t a ban. And it wasn’t a rigid policy. It was more of a reset.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So students will actually come back and have zero Chromebook time for their first few weeks in our spring semester. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>All we’ve done is give guidance. Please use them as sparingly as possible. Think about when they really enhance the lesson, enhance the learning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So, over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals or not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Inge is clear-eyed about the limits of this approach. Keeping Chromebooks at school won’t magically solve every problem. But she hopes it’s a start. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What I’m most proud of the work here is that I have a staff who is really brave to try something different. They’re allowing us to make this change knowing that we’re going to face unknowns, we’re going to face challenges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her hope isn’t that other schools copy McPherson exactly, but that they feel empowered to ask their own “what if” questions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her hope isn’t that other schools copy McPherson exactly, but that they feel empowered to ask their own “what if” questions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Los Angeles parent Lila Byock’s son started middle school, his grades suddenly collapsed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It didn’t make sense. “He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school,” Byock said. She and her husband were confused and concerned.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers assured the family that their son understood the material and the problem wasn’t academics. “They said, ‘He just can’t \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63519/distracted-students-understanding-these-3-myths-of-attention-span-can-help\">stay on task\u003c/a> on his iPad,’” she continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That answer surprised Byock. Like many parents, she assumed that after pandemic remote learning ended, classrooms had largely returned to face-to-face instruction. Instead, she learned her son was spending much of his school day on a district-issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After talking with her son, Byock realized he wasn’t trying to break rules, but rather, he felt trapped by distractions he couldn’t seem to resist. “It was eroding his self-esteem,” she said. “He told us, ‘I want to stop, and I don’t think I can.'”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Byock asked school administrators how devices were being used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66432/little-kids-outsmart-content-blockers-what-can-be-done-about-devices-in-school\">what safeguards existed\u003c/a>, the school’s answers didn’t satisfy her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>The promise of education technology\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, classrooms don’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Esquivel, the issue extends beyond one software program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Some schools are pulling back on tech use\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-768x549.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-1536x1097.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2048x1463.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To understand how schools got to a place where students spend so much of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audrey Watters is a writer and historian who studies education technology. She says the debates we’re having about ed tech today stretch back to way before students were using laptops..\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>You want to be able to develop a machine that can administer, grade, and teach more efficiently, more objectively, than teachers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says that every wave of ed tech promises to improve learning, but underneath those promises is a deep discomfort with how human and unpredictable classrooms actually are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To make one thing clear, teachers have used technology creatively for decades — They might show short videos to illustrate a concept or even take students on a virtual field trip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oftentimes learning with tech is shaped by the companies that make the tools\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Audrey’s argument is that education technology has failed because it was built to standardize learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>While she was going through this, she felt isolated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Molly wants more opportunities for students to interact with each other and with their teacher. She says the difference feels obvious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Compare that to a classroom where every student is working on a device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It means kids have headphones on, their heads are tilted down to look at a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At her organization, EverySchool, she has worked to synthesize research so that teachers don’t have to. A big thing she did that many folks don’t do was that she focused on research that wasn’t funded by people with a stake in these tech tools. A big finding that may surprise you is that there isn’t conclusive evidence saying that tech is making kids smarter or improves learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, we can’t pin this all on edtech. There are a variety of factors that may be contributing, but at a minimum it’s safe to say it isn’t helping. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A lot of schools use ed tech tools \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech and TechEd are not the same thing. But teaching how to using technology, teaching transformative technology skills is not the same thing as using technology to teach every subject. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amy also debunks that EdTech is neutral. You might hear edtech is a tool… like a pencil\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And that brings us back to Lila and her son. Who was definitely not using his ipad like a pencil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>Algebra’s hard. It’s not very hard to scroll YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This is Lila again. Talking about her son. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Since Lila first started asking questions, LAUSD has adopted new limits on student screen time, including restrictions on classroom device use and new options for families to opt out of bringing devices home. It’s a sign that some districts are beginning to rethink their relationship with technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At the smallest pointy tip is Disruptive technology\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>And that’s tech that disrupts learning and breeds habitual use. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning, like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So really it’s something that we encourage educators to use to really to avoid using if possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So, use sparingly and in very specific situations if you do end up needing to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Supportive is the area that supports learning in helpful ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The two words that changed everything were what if. As in, What if they didn’t do school this way anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> School leaders began digging into the research –much of the same research Amy Tyson pointed to— showing that one-to-one devices often fail to deliver on their promises.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Instead of having students carrying Chromebooks all day, McPherson invested in classroom carts to keep devices in the room and had teachers use them only when teachers believed they genuinely add value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>As we came back this school year, we started really training our teachers. This is coming. We’re not sure when. We are unsure exactly the timeline. Actually over the last two days, students have returned to their Chromebooks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This wasn’t a ban. And it wasn’t a rigid policy. It was more of a reset.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So students will actually come back and have zero Chromebook time for their first few weeks in our spring semester. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>All we’ve done is give guidance. Please use them as sparingly as possible. Think about when they really enhance the lesson, enhance the learning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So, over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals or not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Inge is clear-eyed about the limits of this approach. Keeping Chromebooks at school won’t magically solve every problem. But she hopes it’s a start. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What I’m most proud of the work here is that I have a staff who is really brave to try something different. They’re allowing us to make this change knowing that we’re going to face unknowns, we’re going to face challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her hope isn’t that other schools copy McPherson exactly, but that they feel empowered to ask their own “what if” questions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-lasting-legacy-of-rita-piersons-every-kid-needs-a-champion",
"title": "The Lasting Legacy of Rita Pierson’s ‘Every Kid Needs a Champion’",
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"headTitle": "The Lasting Legacy of Rita Pierson’s ‘Every Kid Needs a Champion’ | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, Rita Pierson, a middle school teacher from Texas, walked onto a stage, wearing a bright red jacket, to deliver an unscripted speech to TED Conference attendees. The video of that speech would become one of the most viewed TED Talks at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In just under eight minutes, she made a simple, unforgettable argument: kids don’t learn from people they don’t like. The talk, titled \u003ca href=\"https://www.ted.com/talks/rita_pierson_every_kid_needs_a_champion\">Every Kid Needs a Champion\u003c/a>, is often the first time people hear someone describe teaching not just as instruction, but as a relationship. The video has become a staple of teacher professional development sessions across the country in staff meetings and college classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than a decade later, the message lands in a very different educational climate. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/what-new-survey-says-about-teachers-plans-leave-their-jobs\">Teachers report high levels of stress\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/overview-teacher-shortages-2025-factsheet\">staffing shortages are common\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://cps.northeastern.edu/news/teacher-burnout-crisis-addressing-compassion-fatigue-and-the-impact-of-praxis-shock/\">burnout remains a major concern\u003c/a>. Exploring her presentation today raises important questions: What does it actually take to be the kind of teacher Pierson described? And is it sustainable?\u003cbr />\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The teacher behind the TED Talk\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before her talk went viral, Rita Pierson was already well known among educators in Texas. She came from a family of teachers and spent decades working in classrooms and advocating for students who often felt overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest, remembers that relationships were at the center of everything her mother did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She helped remind teachers that it’s okay to say ‘I love you.’ It’s okay to let the kids know that they are loved,” Forrest said. “There’s so many kids out there who don’t know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That idea shows up clearly in the talk. Teachers, she said, have the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60094/strategies-for-building-deeper-relationships-with-students-through-academic-content\">power to build relationships\u003c/a>, even with students who struggle in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But her daughter said Pierson also understood the emotional demands of that kind of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She reminded me quickly [during] my first year teaching that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted,” Forrest said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Every kid needs a champion | Rita Pierson | TED\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/SFnMTHhKdkw?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen>\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A message passed from teacher to teacher\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For many educators, Pierson’s talk appears during professional development at the start of the school year. That’s how Melissa K. Stanley encountered it when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really resonated with me,” Stanley said. “I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today she trains future teachers of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University, where Pierson’s message is still part of the curriculum. Before her students begin their pre-service teaching placements, Stanley asks them to watch the talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The video helps her introduce students to what educators call \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60112/learning-from-students-families-as-a-step-toward-equity-in-literacy-instruction\">asset-based pedagogy\u003c/a>, an approach that focuses on students’ strengths and experiences rather than what students lack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/new-focus-strength-based-learning\">Studies\u003c/a> have found that students often show stronger engagement, greater belonging and better academic outcomes when teachers build on students’ strengths and experiences rather than focusing primarily on deficits. Instead of asking what students lack, teachers focus on what they bring to the table.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for some future educators, Stanley said, this approach is new and they don’t know where to start. This video helps her pre-service teachers start talking about what it means to build relationships with students so they can start to apply asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re about to step into classrooms for the first time and they’re nervous,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When caring becomes exhausting by design\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The kind of relational teaching Pierson described requires emotional labor. For teachers already juggling large class sizes, administrative demands and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">behavioral challenges\u003c/a>, that energy can run out quickly. Teacher burnout has been a major concern in recent years and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/09/27/a-dwindling-number-of-new-u-s-college-graduates-have-a-degree-in-education/\">fewer people are entering the profession\u003c/a>. Surveys consistently show high levels of stress among educators and \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">many teachers leave the profession within their first five years\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Researchers like professor \u003ca href=\"https://www.cpc.unc.edu/people/fellows/ganga-bey/\">Ganga Bey at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill\u003c/a> are looking more closely at the emotional dynamics of teaching and how educators can sustain themselves while still showing up for students. Bey studies how people respond to stress and why similar experiences can affect individuals differently. “Not everyone who is exposed to stress will deal with it in the same way,” Bey said. “Dealing with it has a lot of implications for how that stress will impact people’s health.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching provides plenty of opportunities for stressful encounters. Examples may include a heated argument with a student or a classroom moment that spirals unexpectedly. According to Bey, the way teachers interpret those moments can influence how stressful they become physically and emotionally. For instance, if a teacher interprets a student’s outburst as a personal attack, the body may register the encounter as a threat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the teacher understands the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66347/ross-greene-what-if-bad-behavior-isnt-the-problem\">behavior as a sign the student is struggling\u003c/a>, the response can shift. “You wouldn’t be treating someone badly like that if you yourself weren’t suffering in some way,” Bey added. That reframing doesn’t mean ignoring harmful behavior. Instead, Bey said it can reduce the intensity of the stress response and make it easier to stay grounded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bey describes this mindset as part of what she calls a \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">vitalizing identity\u003c/a>, which is a way of understanding yourself and others that emphasizes connection, compassion and shared humanity. At its core, she said, it’s about expanding the boundaries of who we include in our circle of care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burnout often occurs, Bey said, when educators consistently place students’ needs above their own without receiving the support they need. “One would hope that because teachers give up so much of themselves that others would pour so much into them to sustain the work that they do. And that does not happen,” she said. Instead, many teachers are left trying to set boundaries that school systems often do not support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Love, to me, is the idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else,” Bey said, and teachers have to include themselves in their own circles of care. In other words, caring for students cannot come at the expense of caring for yourself, which is the lesson Pierson emphasized with her daughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson’s continued legacy \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Stanley’s college students, Pierson’s talk often becomes a reference point throughout their training. They return to it when they’re thinking about classroom management, lesson design or how to respond to difficult moments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard—when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/jc95sq/if_i_have_to_sit_through_that_rita_pierson_ted/\">fatigue that comes with repeated views\u003c/a> of the TED Talk during professional development, Pierson’s message continues to resonate with educators. Stanley believes that’s because the talk gives them a license to teach the way they want to. That doesn’t mean the work becomes easy; building relationships with students takes time, patience and emotional effort. But Pierson’s legacy reminds educators that those relationships are not separate from learning. They are what make learning possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For many teachers, that idea still feels worth holding onto.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s summertime. School hasn’t started yet. The hallways are still quiet, and the kids are still sleeping in, but teachers? They’re back in school early to attend mandatory professional development sessions. Also known as PD. These might include discussing new protocols, hashing out curriculum and getting inspired for the new school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If I asked teachers ‘What’s the one piece of PD you just know is coming?’ A lot of them would say the same thing: “Every kid needs a champion.” A TED Talk given by a teacher named Rita Pierson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson:\u003c/strong> Every child deserves a champion, an adult who will never give up on them, who understands the power of connection and insists that they become the best they can possibly be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In our last episode, we talked about how teaching is harder than ever – and how schools tend to focus on supporting kids while overlooking the adults who make learning possible: teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this episode, we take a look at Rita Pierson’s viral talk and what it tells us about how relationships shape learning. We’ll meet the people who knew Rita best, the educators who carry her philosophy forward, and the researcher studying what happens to our bodies and minds when we lead with love.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Every time somebody finds out I teach middle school, they’re like, ‘Oh bless you.’ Like that’s the that’s the first reaction. And I’m like, Yeah, I know, because everybody remembers middle school is such a hard transition\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Beth Jarzabek teaches English in Ludlow, Massachusetts. She works with the kids who struggle the most with reading and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I have all three grades. So I teach sixth, seventh, and eighth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Since her students need more support, there’s a stigma about being placed in her class\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Like, ‘Oh, you have to go to Mrs. J’s class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These are kids who often mask academic frustration with misbehavior. They might act out. They shut down. But Beth sees through it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek\u003c/strong>: Their other teachers may not see them the same way I do. So I try to make those connections and and try to be their champion\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea of being a students’ champion comes straight from Rita Pierson. Like many teachers Beth first watched her TED Talk video during professional development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> There were people like, you know, who were kind of rolling their eyes and whatnot. But it resonated with maybe when she talked about the kids that she had that, you know were the kids that were struggling, that the and the fact that she said to them, they put us all together to show everybody else how it’s done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s the clip from Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: One year I came up with a bright idea. I told all my students, you were chosen to be in my class. Because I am the best teacher and you are the best students. They put us all together so we could show everybody else how to do it.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> And I was like, oh, I love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So Beth decided to bring that same energy into her own classroom, especially for kids who rarely get encouraged by adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I started, you know, just trying to be that hype person, you know, when I go when I would go into my neighbor’s classroom, I would be like, Oh, which kids can I steal from you? You know, I’m like, oh, or if a kid got transferred in, I was like, I found out how cool you were, and I told them that I want, wanted you in my classroom. And it gave the kids like a little boost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Or I’ll say to them, you know, like, hey, I’m telling all these people how awesome you are. I’m like, you gotta show them how awesome you are. And they’re like, okay, well, for you, I’ll do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> she’s tapping into something we know from decades of research. A positive relationship with even one caring adult is one of the strongest predictors of: better attendance, stronger academic performance, and improved social-emotional skills\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Several studies find that students with strong teacher relationships can gain the equivalent of up to an extra year of learning — especially those who struggle the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And here’s something else: supportive teacher–student relationships protect teachers too. Studies show that educators who feel connected to their students report significantly lower burnout and higher job satisfaction, even in high-stress environments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I don’t have to be your favorite, but I’m still gonna go to bat with you. You are still going to know that you’re safe with me. You are still going to know that you have a valued place in my classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She reminds herself of that, even on the hardest days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I try to remember when everything is falling apart I’m here for them to be that person in this tumultuous time in their life is really such an honor. Sometimes it’s easier to remember that than others. And there’s definitely days that I I go home and I like I’m under a weighted blanket. But I try to bring myself back to that, you know, what an honor it is to be the safe place for these kids because some of them don’t have it otherwise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Up next, we’ll explore why Rita Pierson’s message still resonates — who she was, how teachers are putting her ideas into practice, and what it takes to care for students without burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita Pierson’s TED Talk reached millions of teachers, but behind the scenes, the story of how it even happened is almost as special as the talk itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I joined Ted working two days a week to try and help them figure out whether or not they could make TV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I said, Of course you can do TV, it’s SNL for nerds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet Blake , was the head of television for TED in 2013. She was producing a TV special on education — it included John Legend, Bill Gates, Sir Ken Robinson… big names. But she couldn’t shake off the feeling that something was missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> Through YouTube and I came across Rita. And the video that was that existed online wasn’t great, but I could see she had this enormous personality and that she was so authentic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After seeing clips of Rita giving teaching tips, she spent months trying to track her down\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I was getting a bit desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita wasn’t a celebrity educator at the time. She was a longtime teacher and administrator in Houston who came from a family of educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And eventually I was calling different school districts in Houston. And I left a message for her at a school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then one evening Juliet’s phone rang.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I got a call one evening, and she just went, ‘Hello,’ and I went, ‘Rita, Rita Pearson?’ And she went, ‘Sure am.’ And I went, ‘I have been looking you for you for months.’ She said, ‘Why?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m producing a show for Ted.’ And she said these magical words that made me fall in love with her immediately. ‘Who’s Ted?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> From there, they talked on the phone almost every night—once Rita got home from teaching. They were trying to figure out what she might talk about for her presentation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> She would talk to me about her mother and her father being educators and the schools that she’d worked in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita could move seamlessly between heartbreaking stories about students and cracking jokes about the realities of teaching. And slowly, through those late-night phone calls, the TED Talk started to take shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And then she said, I need to write this, don’t I? I said, Yes, this is how it works. You not only have to write it, you have to learn it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But when Rita arrived in New York for rehearsal…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, ‘Honey, I didn’t learn it.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet was panicking… Rita was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, You sit here and I’ll be on the stage and give me, tell me when I’ve got to wrap up, do this, and I’ll bring it to a close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I just thought, you know what? I just trust this woman to be brilliant. I just know that she’s going to do it and it’s gonna be great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That talk given live and mostly off the cuff and it is the one millions of teachers know today. Rita, on stage, speaking straight from the heart about how relationships are important for learning\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: But one of the things that we never discuss or we rarely discuss is the value and importance of human connection…relationships]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet remembers her as one of the most authentic speakers she’s ever worked with. And Rita’s daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest says this all makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> My mother’s never written down a speech in her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> there might be maybe some bullet points, but she always knew exactly what she wanted to say and how she wanted to get it across.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Kristin says her mom’s taught elementary and junior high students for over 40 years. Her entire philosophy came down to one lesson:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It’s okay to say I love you. It’s okay to let the kids know that that that they are loved, because there’s so many kids out there who don’t know that, who don’t inherently know that they are love. And so to explicitly tell kids, I care about you, you know, I’m here for you. I love you, and I’m gonna work my butt off for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin spent 15 years teaching in Houston herself, and she says her mother’s approach shaped her own practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> her work was centered around relationships. It was centered around relationship building and that was the central part of who I got to be as a teacher because I got that from her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But she’s also quick to point out that her mom wasn’t naïve about the realities of teaching. Rita loved her students fiercely, but she knew that caring deeply for students wasn’t enough to protect her from burnout or from a system that often asks too much with too little support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And she reminded me quickly, my first year teaching, that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: When Kristin had an especially hard day in the classroom. Rita would say, “You get 5 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It just means that you know, your sadness, there’s an end point to it. So whatever that five minutes is, it might be a day, it might be a week, it might be a month. But just know that at some point there’s going to be an end to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin says those lessons from her mom took on a very different meaning not long after the TED Talk was filmed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> After you know, they shot that TED talk, she she passed about three months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kirstin isn’t in the classroom anymore, but she still works with educators. she brings her mom’s presence with her everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> I think about my mom every day, and it’s been close to 13 years since she was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And even the day she passed, I had to remind myself, okay, you get five minutes. I don’t know if my five minutes is over yet. I really I really don’t know. But I I haven’t stayed in a sad place clearly, but but it’s definitely reminded me to pick myself up, dust myself off, and and what’s the next thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> More than a decade later, Rita Pierson’s talk is still finding new audiences – not just among teachers, but among the people learning to become teachers. And that’s where Melissa Stanley comes in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I am Dr. Melissa K. Stanley and I am the director of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I teach social studies methods courses to help prepare them to be social studies teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She first saw Rita’s talk back when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> And it really resonated with me and resonated with the way that I taught. I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And once Melissa became a teacher-educator at Central Michigan University. The talk became part of how she teaches. It’s a required video during the semester that her class does their pre-student teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> They’re pretty nervous. And that is the semester that they do their pre-student teaching. It’s is the first real experience that they’ll get with students in going into classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa uses the video to introduce students to asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It’s looking at the whole student and it’s valuing what they bring and building relationships with them when the history of education has traditionally been kind of a deficit approach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means seeing students through their problems rather than their potential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Studies show that when teachers take an asset-based approach, valuing students’ cultural strengths, community knowledge, and lived identities, students show stronger academic engagement, better attendance, and improved well-being. And teachers themselves experience more purpose and lower burnout because relationships feel reciprocal rather than adversarial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> That really helps us have conversations and then use it as a gateway into conversations with students about how we adopt an asset bit based pedagogy and how we value the whole student and we value the strengths they bring to the classroom, the diversity they bring to the classroom, and how we work with that to build relationships and then also help them grow and meet their goals and their dreams for their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> for some preservice teachers, this is a brand-new idea. Their own schooling may not have included teachers who championed them. So imagining themselves as that kind of teacher can be hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It generally generates a lot of questions about okay, how do we do this? This is great. I would love to get there. That’s kind of an end goal for me. But what are the steps along the way? What does that look like in practical application?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They also discuss Rita’s line about joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk:\u003c/strong>Teaching and learning should bring joy.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> But if you’re engaging in this type of teaching and this type of work with students, not every moment is going to be joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk: \u003c/strong>So teachers become great actors and great actresses. And we come to work when we don’t feel like it. And we listen to policy that doesn’t make sense. And we teach anyway. We teach anyway because that’s what we do. ]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> So we have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard, when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa is naming something important. Teachers want to show up for kids the way Rita did, but the reality is that teaching is stressful. And not just the piles of grading or the endless meetings—interpersonal stress can hit teachers particularly hard. It affects their bodies and can leave them feeling emotionally exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ganga Bey is a researcher at the University of North Carolina. She studies how stress affects the body and why stress hits some people harder than others. And one thing she’s interested in is how the way we think about other people changes how stress affects us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Love to me is this idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In simpler terms: seeing other people’s well-being as connected to your own. That can matter a lot in the classroom. Because when a student lashes out, a teacher can interpret that in different ways. They can think: This kid doesn’t respect me. Or: This kid is struggling right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And Ganga says that shift matters physically—not just emotionally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> So because of that, I’m literally gonna process that in a less stressful way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now to be clear—this is not the same thing as toxic positivity. This isn’t: ‘Just smile through abuse.’ And it’s not: ‘Teachers should sacrifice themselves for kids.’ In fact, Ganga says one of the biggest problems in education is that teachers are already being asked to give too much of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Teachers are a particular group of people. Who encounter a tremendous amount of stressors and some of them are avoidable stressors right and part of the way that we organize our society teachers are undervalued um overworked and and live in a largely thankless space\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers are reporting record-high stress levels, elevated rates of depression, and many are leaving the profession within the first five years. Ganga says burnout often happens when teachers keep putting everyone else’s needs ahead of their own for too long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I think burnout happens when you have pushed out, pushed through as much as possibly can because you have centered the needs of these children that you have been serving above even your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So her argument isn’t “love harder.” It’s that teachers have to include themselves in that care too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> It means that when my body is signaling to me that I am tired…we give equal weight to our needs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>That balance—staying open to students without completely draining yourself—is hard. But Ganga says people like Rita Pierson matter because that care seem possible\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I love to hear about Rita because I know that there are other people out there like that who embody this. And the more that we make them into real human beings and make them accessible, the more than I think we can convince others that it’s worth endeavoring to even be like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Regardless of what the world right now may make us think, that it is worth it for us to pursue a world and a society and hold on to the idea that being loving can be the norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley and the Templeton Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, Rita Pierson, a middle school teacher from Texas, walked onto a stage, wearing a bright red jacket, to deliver an unscripted speech to TED Conference attendees. The video of that speech would become one of the most viewed TED Talks at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In just under eight minutes, she made a simple, unforgettable argument: kids don’t learn from people they don’t like. The talk, titled \u003ca href=\"https://www.ted.com/talks/rita_pierson_every_kid_needs_a_champion\">Every Kid Needs a Champion\u003c/a>, is often the first time people hear someone describe teaching not just as instruction, but as a relationship. The video has become a staple of teacher professional development sessions across the country in staff meetings and college classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than a decade later, the message lands in a very different educational climate. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/what-new-survey-says-about-teachers-plans-leave-their-jobs\">Teachers report high levels of stress\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/overview-teacher-shortages-2025-factsheet\">staffing shortages are common\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://cps.northeastern.edu/news/teacher-burnout-crisis-addressing-compassion-fatigue-and-the-impact-of-praxis-shock/\">burnout remains a major concern\u003c/a>. Exploring her presentation today raises important questions: What does it actually take to be the kind of teacher Pierson described? And is it sustainable?\u003cbr />\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The teacher behind the TED Talk\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before her talk went viral, Rita Pierson was already well known among educators in Texas. She came from a family of teachers and spent decades working in classrooms and advocating for students who often felt overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest, remembers that relationships were at the center of everything her mother did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She helped remind teachers that it’s okay to say ‘I love you.’ It’s okay to let the kids know that they are loved,” Forrest said. “There’s so many kids out there who don’t know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That idea shows up clearly in the talk. Teachers, she said, have the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60094/strategies-for-building-deeper-relationships-with-students-through-academic-content\">power to build relationships\u003c/a>, even with students who struggle in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But her daughter said Pierson also understood the emotional demands of that kind of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She reminded me quickly [during] my first year teaching that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted,” Forrest said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Every kid needs a champion | Rita Pierson | TED\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/SFnMTHhKdkw?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen>\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A message passed from teacher to teacher\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For many educators, Pierson’s talk appears during professional development at the start of the school year. That’s how Melissa K. Stanley encountered it when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really resonated with me,” Stanley said. “I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today she trains future teachers of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University, where Pierson’s message is still part of the curriculum. Before her students begin their pre-service teaching placements, Stanley asks them to watch the talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The video helps her introduce students to what educators call \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60112/learning-from-students-families-as-a-step-toward-equity-in-literacy-instruction\">asset-based pedagogy\u003c/a>, an approach that focuses on students’ strengths and experiences rather than what students lack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/new-focus-strength-based-learning\">Studies\u003c/a> have found that students often show stronger engagement, greater belonging and better academic outcomes when teachers build on students’ strengths and experiences rather than focusing primarily on deficits. Instead of asking what students lack, teachers focus on what they bring to the table.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for some future educators, Stanley said, this approach is new and they don’t know where to start. This video helps her pre-service teachers start talking about what it means to build relationships with students so they can start to apply asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re about to step into classrooms for the first time and they’re nervous,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When caring becomes exhausting by design\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The kind of relational teaching Pierson described requires emotional labor. For teachers already juggling large class sizes, administrative demands and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">behavioral challenges\u003c/a>, that energy can run out quickly. Teacher burnout has been a major concern in recent years and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/09/27/a-dwindling-number-of-new-u-s-college-graduates-have-a-degree-in-education/\">fewer people are entering the profession\u003c/a>. Surveys consistently show high levels of stress among educators and \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">many teachers leave the profession within their first five years\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Researchers like professor \u003ca href=\"https://www.cpc.unc.edu/people/fellows/ganga-bey/\">Ganga Bey at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill\u003c/a> are looking more closely at the emotional dynamics of teaching and how educators can sustain themselves while still showing up for students. Bey studies how people respond to stress and why similar experiences can affect individuals differently. “Not everyone who is exposed to stress will deal with it in the same way,” Bey said. “Dealing with it has a lot of implications for how that stress will impact people’s health.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching provides plenty of opportunities for stressful encounters. Examples may include a heated argument with a student or a classroom moment that spirals unexpectedly. According to Bey, the way teachers interpret those moments can influence how stressful they become physically and emotionally. For instance, if a teacher interprets a student’s outburst as a personal attack, the body may register the encounter as a threat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the teacher understands the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66347/ross-greene-what-if-bad-behavior-isnt-the-problem\">behavior as a sign the student is struggling\u003c/a>, the response can shift. “You wouldn’t be treating someone badly like that if you yourself weren’t suffering in some way,” Bey added. That reframing doesn’t mean ignoring harmful behavior. Instead, Bey said it can reduce the intensity of the stress response and make it easier to stay grounded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bey describes this mindset as part of what she calls a \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">vitalizing identity\u003c/a>, which is a way of understanding yourself and others that emphasizes connection, compassion and shared humanity. At its core, she said, it’s about expanding the boundaries of who we include in our circle of care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burnout often occurs, Bey said, when educators consistently place students’ needs above their own without receiving the support they need. “One would hope that because teachers give up so much of themselves that others would pour so much into them to sustain the work that they do. And that does not happen,” she said. Instead, many teachers are left trying to set boundaries that school systems often do not support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Love, to me, is the idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else,” Bey said, and teachers have to include themselves in their own circles of care. In other words, caring for students cannot come at the expense of caring for yourself, which is the lesson Pierson emphasized with her daughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson’s continued legacy \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Stanley’s college students, Pierson’s talk often becomes a reference point throughout their training. They return to it when they’re thinking about classroom management, lesson design or how to respond to difficult moments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard—when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/jc95sq/if_i_have_to_sit_through_that_rita_pierson_ted/\">fatigue that comes with repeated views\u003c/a> of the TED Talk during professional development, Pierson’s message continues to resonate with educators. Stanley believes that’s because the talk gives them a license to teach the way they want to. That doesn’t mean the work becomes easy; building relationships with students takes time, patience and emotional effort. But Pierson’s legacy reminds educators that those relationships are not separate from learning. They are what make learning possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For many teachers, that idea still feels worth holding onto.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s summertime. School hasn’t started yet. The hallways are still quiet, and the kids are still sleeping in, but teachers? They’re back in school early to attend mandatory professional development sessions. Also known as PD. These might include discussing new protocols, hashing out curriculum and getting inspired for the new school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If I asked teachers ‘What’s the one piece of PD you just know is coming?’ A lot of them would say the same thing: “Every kid needs a champion.” A TED Talk given by a teacher named Rita Pierson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson:\u003c/strong> Every child deserves a champion, an adult who will never give up on them, who understands the power of connection and insists that they become the best they can possibly be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In our last episode, we talked about how teaching is harder than ever – and how schools tend to focus on supporting kids while overlooking the adults who make learning possible: teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this episode, we take a look at Rita Pierson’s viral talk and what it tells us about how relationships shape learning. We’ll meet the people who knew Rita best, the educators who carry her philosophy forward, and the researcher studying what happens to our bodies and minds when we lead with love.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Every time somebody finds out I teach middle school, they’re like, ‘Oh bless you.’ Like that’s the that’s the first reaction. And I’m like, Yeah, I know, because everybody remembers middle school is such a hard transition\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Beth Jarzabek teaches English in Ludlow, Massachusetts. She works with the kids who struggle the most with reading and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I have all three grades. So I teach sixth, seventh, and eighth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Since her students need more support, there’s a stigma about being placed in her class\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Like, ‘Oh, you have to go to Mrs. J’s class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These are kids who often mask academic frustration with misbehavior. They might act out. They shut down. But Beth sees through it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek\u003c/strong>: Their other teachers may not see them the same way I do. So I try to make those connections and and try to be their champion\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea of being a students’ champion comes straight from Rita Pierson. Like many teachers Beth first watched her TED Talk video during professional development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> There were people like, you know, who were kind of rolling their eyes and whatnot. But it resonated with maybe when she talked about the kids that she had that, you know were the kids that were struggling, that the and the fact that she said to them, they put us all together to show everybody else how it’s done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s the clip from Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: One year I came up with a bright idea. I told all my students, you were chosen to be in my class. Because I am the best teacher and you are the best students. They put us all together so we could show everybody else how to do it.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> And I was like, oh, I love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So Beth decided to bring that same energy into her own classroom, especially for kids who rarely get encouraged by adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I started, you know, just trying to be that hype person, you know, when I go when I would go into my neighbor’s classroom, I would be like, Oh, which kids can I steal from you? You know, I’m like, oh, or if a kid got transferred in, I was like, I found out how cool you were, and I told them that I want, wanted you in my classroom. And it gave the kids like a little boost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Or I’ll say to them, you know, like, hey, I’m telling all these people how awesome you are. I’m like, you gotta show them how awesome you are. And they’re like, okay, well, for you, I’ll do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> she’s tapping into something we know from decades of research. A positive relationship with even one caring adult is one of the strongest predictors of: better attendance, stronger academic performance, and improved social-emotional skills\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Several studies find that students with strong teacher relationships can gain the equivalent of up to an extra year of learning — especially those who struggle the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And here’s something else: supportive teacher–student relationships protect teachers too. Studies show that educators who feel connected to their students report significantly lower burnout and higher job satisfaction, even in high-stress environments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I don’t have to be your favorite, but I’m still gonna go to bat with you. You are still going to know that you’re safe with me. You are still going to know that you have a valued place in my classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She reminds herself of that, even on the hardest days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I try to remember when everything is falling apart I’m here for them to be that person in this tumultuous time in their life is really such an honor. Sometimes it’s easier to remember that than others. And there’s definitely days that I I go home and I like I’m under a weighted blanket. But I try to bring myself back to that, you know, what an honor it is to be the safe place for these kids because some of them don’t have it otherwise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Up next, we’ll explore why Rita Pierson’s message still resonates — who she was, how teachers are putting her ideas into practice, and what it takes to care for students without burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita Pierson’s TED Talk reached millions of teachers, but behind the scenes, the story of how it even happened is almost as special as the talk itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I joined Ted working two days a week to try and help them figure out whether or not they could make TV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I said, Of course you can do TV, it’s SNL for nerds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet Blake , was the head of television for TED in 2013. She was producing a TV special on education — it included John Legend, Bill Gates, Sir Ken Robinson… big names. But she couldn’t shake off the feeling that something was missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> Through YouTube and I came across Rita. And the video that was that existed online wasn’t great, but I could see she had this enormous personality and that she was so authentic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After seeing clips of Rita giving teaching tips, she spent months trying to track her down\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I was getting a bit desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita wasn’t a celebrity educator at the time. She was a longtime teacher and administrator in Houston who came from a family of educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And eventually I was calling different school districts in Houston. And I left a message for her at a school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then one evening Juliet’s phone rang.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I got a call one evening, and she just went, ‘Hello,’ and I went, ‘Rita, Rita Pearson?’ And she went, ‘Sure am.’ And I went, ‘I have been looking you for you for months.’ She said, ‘Why?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m producing a show for Ted.’ And she said these magical words that made me fall in love with her immediately. ‘Who’s Ted?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> From there, they talked on the phone almost every night—once Rita got home from teaching. They were trying to figure out what she might talk about for her presentation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> She would talk to me about her mother and her father being educators and the schools that she’d worked in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita could move seamlessly between heartbreaking stories about students and cracking jokes about the realities of teaching. And slowly, through those late-night phone calls, the TED Talk started to take shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And then she said, I need to write this, don’t I? I said, Yes, this is how it works. You not only have to write it, you have to learn it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But when Rita arrived in New York for rehearsal…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, ‘Honey, I didn’t learn it.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet was panicking… Rita was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, You sit here and I’ll be on the stage and give me, tell me when I’ve got to wrap up, do this, and I’ll bring it to a close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I just thought, you know what? I just trust this woman to be brilliant. I just know that she’s going to do it and it’s gonna be great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That talk given live and mostly off the cuff and it is the one millions of teachers know today. Rita, on stage, speaking straight from the heart about how relationships are important for learning\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: But one of the things that we never discuss or we rarely discuss is the value and importance of human connection…relationships]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet remembers her as one of the most authentic speakers she’s ever worked with. And Rita’s daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest says this all makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> My mother’s never written down a speech in her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> there might be maybe some bullet points, but she always knew exactly what she wanted to say and how she wanted to get it across.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Kristin says her mom’s taught elementary and junior high students for over 40 years. Her entire philosophy came down to one lesson:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It’s okay to say I love you. It’s okay to let the kids know that that that they are loved, because there’s so many kids out there who don’t know that, who don’t inherently know that they are love. And so to explicitly tell kids, I care about you, you know, I’m here for you. I love you, and I’m gonna work my butt off for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin spent 15 years teaching in Houston herself, and she says her mother’s approach shaped her own practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> her work was centered around relationships. It was centered around relationship building and that was the central part of who I got to be as a teacher because I got that from her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But she’s also quick to point out that her mom wasn’t naïve about the realities of teaching. Rita loved her students fiercely, but she knew that caring deeply for students wasn’t enough to protect her from burnout or from a system that often asks too much with too little support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And she reminded me quickly, my first year teaching, that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: When Kristin had an especially hard day in the classroom. Rita would say, “You get 5 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It just means that you know, your sadness, there’s an end point to it. So whatever that five minutes is, it might be a day, it might be a week, it might be a month. But just know that at some point there’s going to be an end to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin says those lessons from her mom took on a very different meaning not long after the TED Talk was filmed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> After you know, they shot that TED talk, she she passed about three months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kirstin isn’t in the classroom anymore, but she still works with educators. she brings her mom’s presence with her everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> I think about my mom every day, and it’s been close to 13 years since she was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And even the day she passed, I had to remind myself, okay, you get five minutes. I don’t know if my five minutes is over yet. I really I really don’t know. But I I haven’t stayed in a sad place clearly, but but it’s definitely reminded me to pick myself up, dust myself off, and and what’s the next thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> More than a decade later, Rita Pierson’s talk is still finding new audiences – not just among teachers, but among the people learning to become teachers. And that’s where Melissa Stanley comes in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I am Dr. Melissa K. Stanley and I am the director of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I teach social studies methods courses to help prepare them to be social studies teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She first saw Rita’s talk back when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> And it really resonated with me and resonated with the way that I taught. I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And once Melissa became a teacher-educator at Central Michigan University. The talk became part of how she teaches. It’s a required video during the semester that her class does their pre-student teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> They’re pretty nervous. And that is the semester that they do their pre-student teaching. It’s is the first real experience that they’ll get with students in going into classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa uses the video to introduce students to asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It’s looking at the whole student and it’s valuing what they bring and building relationships with them when the history of education has traditionally been kind of a deficit approach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means seeing students through their problems rather than their potential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Studies show that when teachers take an asset-based approach, valuing students’ cultural strengths, community knowledge, and lived identities, students show stronger academic engagement, better attendance, and improved well-being. And teachers themselves experience more purpose and lower burnout because relationships feel reciprocal rather than adversarial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> That really helps us have conversations and then use it as a gateway into conversations with students about how we adopt an asset bit based pedagogy and how we value the whole student and we value the strengths they bring to the classroom, the diversity they bring to the classroom, and how we work with that to build relationships and then also help them grow and meet their goals and their dreams for their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> for some preservice teachers, this is a brand-new idea. Their own schooling may not have included teachers who championed them. So imagining themselves as that kind of teacher can be hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It generally generates a lot of questions about okay, how do we do this? This is great. I would love to get there. That’s kind of an end goal for me. But what are the steps along the way? What does that look like in practical application?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They also discuss Rita’s line about joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk:\u003c/strong>Teaching and learning should bring joy.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> But if you’re engaging in this type of teaching and this type of work with students, not every moment is going to be joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk: \u003c/strong>So teachers become great actors and great actresses. And we come to work when we don’t feel like it. And we listen to policy that doesn’t make sense. And we teach anyway. We teach anyway because that’s what we do. ]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> So we have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard, when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa is naming something important. Teachers want to show up for kids the way Rita did, but the reality is that teaching is stressful. And not just the piles of grading or the endless meetings—interpersonal stress can hit teachers particularly hard. It affects their bodies and can leave them feeling emotionally exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ganga Bey is a researcher at the University of North Carolina. She studies how stress affects the body and why stress hits some people harder than others. And one thing she’s interested in is how the way we think about other people changes how stress affects us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Love to me is this idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In simpler terms: seeing other people’s well-being as connected to your own. That can matter a lot in the classroom. Because when a student lashes out, a teacher can interpret that in different ways. They can think: This kid doesn’t respect me. Or: This kid is struggling right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And Ganga says that shift matters physically—not just emotionally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> So because of that, I’m literally gonna process that in a less stressful way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now to be clear—this is not the same thing as toxic positivity. This isn’t: ‘Just smile through abuse.’ And it’s not: ‘Teachers should sacrifice themselves for kids.’ In fact, Ganga says one of the biggest problems in education is that teachers are already being asked to give too much of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Teachers are a particular group of people. Who encounter a tremendous amount of stressors and some of them are avoidable stressors right and part of the way that we organize our society teachers are undervalued um overworked and and live in a largely thankless space\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers are reporting record-high stress levels, elevated rates of depression, and many are leaving the profession within the first five years. Ganga says burnout often happens when teachers keep putting everyone else’s needs ahead of their own for too long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I think burnout happens when you have pushed out, pushed through as much as possibly can because you have centered the needs of these children that you have been serving above even your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So her argument isn’t “love harder.” It’s that teachers have to include themselves in that care too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> It means that when my body is signaling to me that I am tired…we give equal weight to our needs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>That balance—staying open to students without completely draining yourself—is hard. But Ganga says people like Rita Pierson matter because that care seem possible\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I love to hear about Rita because I know that there are other people out there like that who embody this. And the more that we make them into real human beings and make them accessible, the more than I think we can convince others that it’s worth endeavoring to even be like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Regardless of what the world right now may make us think, that it is worth it for us to pursue a world and a society and hold on to the idea that being loving can be the norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley and the Templeton Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, Rebecca Rogers, a kindergarten teacher at Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, California, wasn’t sure how much longer she could keep teaching. She was dealing with a mysterious immune reaction that doctors couldn’t explain; and she was losing weight, struggling to eat and constantly exhausted. At the same time, she was teaching a classroom full of 4 and 5-year-olds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was probably crying most days coming to school,” Rogers said. “Like, how am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, every morning, she still showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had to be there for these little people who were learning how to do school for the first time,” she said. “I was a hot mess in education.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers’ experience reflects a challenge facing schools across the country. National surveys have found that teachers report \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/teacher-stress-declining\">high rates of stress and burnout\u003c/a>, and many districts continue to struggle with educator retention. Researchers have also found that teacher wellbeing affects more than the adults in the building. Teacher stress can influence \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10421665/\">classroom climate, student engagement and disciplinary practices\u003c/a>. Yet while schools have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kff.org/mental-health/the-landscape-of-school-based-mental-health-services/\">increasingly invested in student mental health supports\u003c/a>, that same level of consideration hasn’t been extended to educators. Oakland Unified School District, where Rogers teaches, is\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/02/12/ousd-budget-plan-cuts-central-office-50-million-deficit/\"> facing a $103 million deficit and is \u003c/a>projected to experience significant cuts to the district’s central office, as well as teaching and support staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite these challenges, Redwood Heights school leaders are trying something different.\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Moving Beyond Burnout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Three years ago, Redwood Heights principal Cynthia Bagby began looking for ways to better support her staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve always wanted to have a program that would take care of the teachers and help them have balance,” Bagby said. When she learned about \u003ca href=\"https://www.theteachingwell.org/\">The Teaching Well\u003c/a>, an Oakland-based nonprofit focused on educator wellbeing, she felt the organization’s approach aligned with her own beliefs about leadership. “It matched my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well was founded around the premise that supporting educators requires more than helping individual teachers cope with stress. The organization works at three levels: individual, interpersonal and systemic. Depending on a school’s needs, The Teaching Well may provide therapy or mentoring for individual educators; facilitate professional development sessions for school staff; coach principals and district leaders on workplace conditions and school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce,” said Lindsey Fuller, executive director of the Teaching Well. “We actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The organization’s staff, including the clinical therapists, is entirely made up of former teachers and administrators who understand the realities of school life firsthand. “We all have a burnout story,” Fuller said. “We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Supporting Individual Teachers\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, who currently teaches first grade, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53875/how-reflective-supervision-sessions-help-teachers-cope-with-the-stress-of-the-job\">one of the most meaningful supports\u003c/a> came through one-on-one mentoring. “It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom,” she said. In conversations with her mentor, Rogers found herself talking about the difficulty of leaving work at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here,” she said. “I’m showering and trying to go to sleep and eat, and I’m like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need?” Researchers sometimes refer to this as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66329/want-to-lighten-your-mental-load-first-let-go-of-these-gender-myths\">emotional labor,\u003c/a> which is the work of managing not only your own emotions but also responding to the emotional needs of others. For educators, that work often extends far beyond the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers also participated in therapy through The Teaching Well. Research suggests that therapy and mental health support can reduce stress and symptoms of burnout among educators, but access can be difficult because of cost, insurance barriers and long waitlists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fuller argues that teachers face additional challenges because their work involves absorbing students’ struggles and trauma. “A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it,” she said. Because the organization’s therapists are all former educators, teachers are able to move more quickly into meaningful conversations, according to Fuller. “It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building a Culture of Support\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, I attended a Teaching Well session held in the school library. Teachers were seated in a circle with their snacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson started a session with a simple question. “How are y’all feeling?” he asked. Teachers called out numbers to rate their energy levels between one and five, with one being low energy and five as high energy. Several reported twos and threes.The session began with a somatic exercise designed to help participants notice what was happening in their bodies. “We can’t silence stress,” Robinson told the group. “But we can turn down the volume.” Teachers closed their eyes and placed their hands on their chests and stomachs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later, educators discussed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58702/is-it-ok-for-teachers-to-cry-in-class\">warning signs that stress was building\u003c/a>. Teachers colored in worksheets with car dashboards printed on them, identifying the emotional and physical signals that told them something was wrong. The goal was to help educators recognize stress before it became overwhelming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the sessions helped normalize conversations about wellbeing that rarely happened in schools. “It gave me this opportunity to think about myself and my practice,” she said, “and me as a human in the context of teaching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving Schools Through Systems\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well’s leaders are careful not to frame burnout as an individual problem that teachers can solve through breathing exercises alone. Fuller says lasting change requires attention to the conditions teachers work within. At Redwood Heights, that meant coaching and support for principal Bagby as well, who says the work has helped create a shared language around relationships, stress and conflict. “What I appreciate about The Teaching Well is they’ve given us practices to maintain that human element—the compassionate element— of how we relate to each other,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching Well partnerships typically last 3-5 years. The organization posits that quick wellness initiatives often fail because they don’t address underlying causes of burnout. “We love to invest in Band-Aids,” Fuller said. “We are reticent to invest in root-cause strategy and sustained support.” The model also depends on buy-in from school and district leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Redwood Heights Elementary, teacher retention rose from 75% in the 2022–23 school year to 91% in 2024–25, \u003ca href=\"https://dashboards.ousd.org/t/HR/views/RetentionDashboardPublic/TeachersatSites?%3Aembed=y&%3AshowShareOptions=true&%3Adisplay_count=no&%3AshowVizHome=no\">a 16-percentage-point increase\u003c/a> during the school’s partnership with The Teaching Well. Across its partner schools nationally, the organization says it retained 85% of participating educators. While individual teachers can benefit from mentoring or therapy, broader cultural changes require administrators willing to examine policies, expectations and workplace conditions. In other words, supporting teachers is not just about helping them become more resilient. It’s also about changing the systems in which they work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research increasingly suggests that teacher wellbeing affects students as well. “We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65836/strict-rules-can-foster-calm-classrooms-but-some-students-pay-the-price\">exclusionary discipline\u003c/a>,” Fuller said. “When a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the changes have shown up in smaller moments. When she notices herself becoming stressed, she now uses some of the same \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53306/how-mindfulness-can-help-teachers-and-students-manage-challenging-situations\">somatic practices\u003c/a> she learned through mentoring and professional development. She has also introduced breathing exercises into her first grade classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whenever we come in from lunch or recess, before we do anything, it’s time for breath work,” Rogers said. The experience has changed the way she interprets \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">student behavior\u003c/a>. “It’s allowed me to view my students in a different way [by] thinking about a trauma-informed response and what they might need,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Three years after she considered leaving teaching, Rogers is still at Redwood Heights. Recently, she found herself looking around her classroom and reflecting on how much her students have grown in a school year that seemed to fly by. “They’re doing it. It’s happening. Like their brains are growing” she said, “I’m like ‘Look at you reading.’”\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was probably crying most days coming to school like ‘How am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, kindergarten teacher Becca Rogers thought she might have to leave teaching altogether. She was having serious health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like having this immune reaction that Western medicine could not figure out. I was losing a ton of weight, I was having these really reactive experiences with food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And every morning, she still had to walk into a kindergarten classroom full of five-year-olds. Little kids who needed help opening snacks and learning how to stand in line. And while she was trying to care for all of them, she was barely holding herself together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>That’s what was going on. I was a hot mess in education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I was little, I thought teachers lived at school. A lot of kids think that. But I think even adults can forget that teachers are carrying entire lives and struggles into the classroom with them. Increasingly, many are burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>National surveys have found that teachers report higher rates of burnout than many other professions. And in recent years, schools across the country have struggled to retain educators. That stress doesn’t just affect teachers, it can shape classroom climate, student relationships, and even disciplinary outcomes. In this episode, we look at what happens when schools start treating teacher wellbeing as essential — not extra — and what it takes to support the people who care for kids. People like Becca Rogers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to show up with a cold and be sick than call the sub.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Calling out sick can sometimes create its own kind of stress. Teachers might need to prepare another lesson plan or be worried about how the day will go without them. For Becca, it was just easier to push through\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I’m someone who says yes, right? Like I’m a teacher, I’m a union rep. I sit on the board of my child’s preschool. I’m a runner, I am a mom. Like, I have a hard time saying no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At one point her colleague pulled her aside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> And was like, how are you doing? You don’t look good, you don’t sound good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like yeah, I’ve been hiding that I don’t feel good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We are hemorrhaging educators across this country\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lindsey Fuller, executive director of The Teaching Well. The Teaching Well organization works with schools and districts to support educator wellbeing as essential to helping teachers keep teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce, we actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Schools are often asked to work with outside consultants and organizations. But teachers can sometimes feel like the people trying to support them don’t fully understand what classrooms are actually like. At The Teaching Well, the staff are all former educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong> So we get it. That is one of the things that makes us really stand out as an organization. We all have a burnout story. We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed and we will always fight for kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Their team is made up of 13 facilitators and therapists and they approach teacher wellbeing on multiple levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The individual, interpersonal, and systemic level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In practice, that might mean they provide therapy for one teacher, lead professional development sessions for an entire staff, or coach district leaders trying to improve working conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some teachers, conversations about “wellness” can feel disconnected from the realities of overcrowded classrooms, staffing shortages, and impossible workloads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of folks hear wellness and they think it’s all woo-woo, like yoga, Lululemon on the beach. That is not what we’re talking about. There’s rigor and strategy in workplace wellbeing initiatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, the school where Becca works, principal Cynthia Bagby had been watching teachers struggle under increasing pressure. Around the same time Becca was burning out, Cynthia decided to bring in The Teaching Well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby: \u003c/strong>I’ve always wanted to have a program that would kind of take care of the teachers. And like help them to have balance, but also focusing on how they can manage themselves as teachers. And so when I heard about this organization, I thought, oh it matches my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says many teachers enter the profession with deep care for children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> They really want to make a difference in the world. And then when they get in the classroom, it’s challenging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teacher stress is closely tied to high turnover rates, especially in schools serving high-needs communities. Cynthia hoped The Teaching Well could help sustain teachers by giving them the tools to care for themselves and each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> When people feel supported, of course they could show up differently. And then you’re not teaching out of fear, but you’re teaching out a love you’re teaching knowing that someone has your back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Partnerships with the Teaching Well are designed to last 3-5 years. In these long term relationships with schools they’ve been able to retain 85% of teachers they work with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lasting change usually depends on whether school and district leaders are willing to shift the conditions teachers are working in. Cynthia was willing to work directly with teaching well staff to be more responsive to teachers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> I also receive coaching with them too. I get to hear their perspective from the like general feedback they get, maybe from the teachers, kind of keep me to see if I’m aligned with what I believe about leading a school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Improving teacher wellbeing involves buy-in from administrators and a long term commitment. But there is more that can be done to help teachers thrive. We’ll get into what happens at the group and individual level after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Each month the Teaching Well comes to Redwood Heights to do professional development after school. Executive director Lindsey Fuller greets people at the door. About twenty educators come in to sink into chairs arranged in a circle. teacher Becca Rogers is there and so is principal Cynthia Bagby\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>How y’all feeling? One to five, as five being high, One being a low, can I get a number? I just want to see what I’m dealing with today. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> I’m seeing some twos, threes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At the front of the room is facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson Robinson. He starts the session with a somatic practice – These are breathing and movement techniques designed to help regulate the nervous system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>We can’t silence stress, right? But we can turn down the value. So the intention today is to find the knob for the volume. How do we turn that down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>He asks teachers to close their eyes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>Place one hand over your heart if you have your hands available and your belly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> Now take a slow, steady breath in release. Take another one in through your nose this time and exhale through your mouth like a soft sigh. Now we’re going to begin to notice, starting from the top, going down. Start at your forehead, your jaw.….”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Around the room, shoulders drop. A few teachers lean back in their chairs and exhale deeply. For a couple minutes, nobody is redirecting behavior. Nobody is answering emails or prepping lessons.They’re just paying attention to their own bodies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>See if you could turn the volume down just one more notch….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When the exercise ends, teachers slowly blink their eyes open. A few nod quietly to themselves, almost like they’re saying: okay. I’m here now. The sessions are designed to help teachers recognize how stress shows up physically and emotionally. At one point, educators are handed worksheets with car dashboards printed on them. Lindsey explains what they’ll do with them\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna get to do some coloring today, um designing your own dashboard. So we’re going to do a little car metaphor play. Uh and then we’re, we’re gonna help you think about our stress management sequence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea is to think about the warning lights going off internally. She says some stress signals are temporary — like a seatbelt alarm. Others are more serious. The kind you can ignore for a little while, but not forever. She tells the group what is going on in their bodies when this happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The amygdala is a part of your brain that helps alert us when there’s a problem. It says, hey yo… something’s going off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna take about four minutes here, and then we’re gonna invite you a couple of folks to share out. Okay? So let’s get connected. Feel free to turn and talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers sit coloring in dashboards with colored pencils, They’re talking quietly with one another about burnout, frustration, and overload. For teachers like Becca, being asked how they’re doing — and being honest about the answer — was a major shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The group sessions are one part of The Teaching Well’s model. But teachers can also receive individual support through one on one mentoring and clinical therapy. Becca has used both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom and seeing what they can provide me. We do a lot of somatic practices or just thinking out loud or touching base what’s actually happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In one mentoring session, Becca tells Teaching Well’s Marc Anthony Robinson over a video call that it is hard to separate teaching from the rest of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s just nice to just sit for a moment. And it’s good for me because after this, I’m going straight to another thing. I’m gonna the new families event for kindergarten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>So you gotta be back on in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I do. I do have to do this back on again. I know, it doesn’t stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here. And I’m like showering and trying to go to sleep and eat. And I’m, like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong> I have to like, it’s okay. You do not need to like hold that when you leave, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>I’m really just honored to be doing this process and this journey with you because I’ve seen you maneuver through a lot and I’m excited for what this new year is going to bring for you school year wise. It’s like it’s going to feel different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In addition to mentoring Becca has also used the therapy services through Teaching Well. Therapy has also been shown to reduce stress and burnout in teachers, but waitlists and cost can make access difficult. Through Teaching Well, teachers can have up to 16 therapy sessions. And if a teacher needs more, Teaching Well helps them get a therapist through their insurance. Lindsey says that mental health services are becoming more available, but oftentimes they’re just for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> What no one is funding comprehensively yet, and we are looking for, is who is funding the mental health grants and programs for the educators that receive those students, that work with them day in and day out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Educators are often absorbing students’ trauma. This is called vicarious or secondary trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The clinical therapists at the teaching well are also former educators. Which addresses a pitfall that is common in many free therapy programs for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>They’re spending so much time trying to explain the context of working in a school that they don’t get to get to the healing. It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When teachers are well students fare better too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of exclusionary discipline. In other words, when a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class and refer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three years after Becca thought about leaving teaching, she’s still at Redwood Heights. And she says she no longer feels like crying before school every day. Having space to talk about teaching to her mentor and her colleagues helped her reestablish herself and her values\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It gave me this like opportunity to be very meta and think about myself and my practice. And me as a human in the context of teaching\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, when stress rises in the classroom, she notices it earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>When I feel myself getting stressed in the class, I find that’s a time for somatic practice for me and I share that practice with my students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>We also do a lot of breath work. Whenever we come in from lunch, recess, we know before we do anything, it’s time for breath work so we can help with that transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[breathing exercise]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I think it’s also allowed me to view my students in a different way, like thinking about a trauma informed response and like what I need, maybe what they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Becca has more empathy now. More capacity to stay present through hard moments with her students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>They’re really navigating something too, right. They’re human, I’m a human and we’re having this experience together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, Rebecca Rogers, a kindergarten teacher at Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, California, wasn’t sure how much longer she could keep teaching. She was dealing with a mysterious immune reaction that doctors couldn’t explain; and she was losing weight, struggling to eat and constantly exhausted. At the same time, she was teaching a classroom full of 4 and 5-year-olds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was probably crying most days coming to school,” Rogers said. “Like, how am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, every morning, she still showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had to be there for these little people who were learning how to do school for the first time,” she said. “I was a hot mess in education.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers’ experience reflects a challenge facing schools across the country. National surveys have found that teachers report \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/teacher-stress-declining\">high rates of stress and burnout\u003c/a>, and many districts continue to struggle with educator retention. Researchers have also found that teacher wellbeing affects more than the adults in the building. Teacher stress can influence \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10421665/\">classroom climate, student engagement and disciplinary practices\u003c/a>. Yet while schools have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kff.org/mental-health/the-landscape-of-school-based-mental-health-services/\">increasingly invested in student mental health supports\u003c/a>, that same level of consideration hasn’t been extended to educators. Oakland Unified School District, where Rogers teaches, is\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/02/12/ousd-budget-plan-cuts-central-office-50-million-deficit/\"> facing a $103 million deficit and is \u003c/a>projected to experience significant cuts to the district’s central office, as well as teaching and support staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite these challenges, Redwood Heights school leaders are trying something different.\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Moving Beyond Burnout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Three years ago, Redwood Heights principal Cynthia Bagby began looking for ways to better support her staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve always wanted to have a program that would take care of the teachers and help them have balance,” Bagby said. When she learned about \u003ca href=\"https://www.theteachingwell.org/\">The Teaching Well\u003c/a>, an Oakland-based nonprofit focused on educator wellbeing, she felt the organization’s approach aligned with her own beliefs about leadership. “It matched my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well was founded around the premise that supporting educators requires more than helping individual teachers cope with stress. The organization works at three levels: individual, interpersonal and systemic. Depending on a school’s needs, The Teaching Well may provide therapy or mentoring for individual educators; facilitate professional development sessions for school staff; coach principals and district leaders on workplace conditions and school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce,” said Lindsey Fuller, executive director of the Teaching Well. “We actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The organization’s staff, including the clinical therapists, is entirely made up of former teachers and administrators who understand the realities of school life firsthand. “We all have a burnout story,” Fuller said. “We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Supporting Individual Teachers\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, who currently teaches first grade, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53875/how-reflective-supervision-sessions-help-teachers-cope-with-the-stress-of-the-job\">one of the most meaningful supports\u003c/a> came through one-on-one mentoring. “It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom,” she said. In conversations with her mentor, Rogers found herself talking about the difficulty of leaving work at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here,” she said. “I’m showering and trying to go to sleep and eat, and I’m like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need?” Researchers sometimes refer to this as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66329/want-to-lighten-your-mental-load-first-let-go-of-these-gender-myths\">emotional labor,\u003c/a> which is the work of managing not only your own emotions but also responding to the emotional needs of others. For educators, that work often extends far beyond the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers also participated in therapy through The Teaching Well. Research suggests that therapy and mental health support can reduce stress and symptoms of burnout among educators, but access can be difficult because of cost, insurance barriers and long waitlists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fuller argues that teachers face additional challenges because their work involves absorbing students’ struggles and trauma. “A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it,” she said. Because the organization’s therapists are all former educators, teachers are able to move more quickly into meaningful conversations, according to Fuller. “It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building a Culture of Support\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, I attended a Teaching Well session held in the school library. Teachers were seated in a circle with their snacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson started a session with a simple question. “How are y’all feeling?” he asked. Teachers called out numbers to rate their energy levels between one and five, with one being low energy and five as high energy. Several reported twos and threes.The session began with a somatic exercise designed to help participants notice what was happening in their bodies. “We can’t silence stress,” Robinson told the group. “But we can turn down the volume.” Teachers closed their eyes and placed their hands on their chests and stomachs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later, educators discussed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58702/is-it-ok-for-teachers-to-cry-in-class\">warning signs that stress was building\u003c/a>. Teachers colored in worksheets with car dashboards printed on them, identifying the emotional and physical signals that told them something was wrong. The goal was to help educators recognize stress before it became overwhelming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the sessions helped normalize conversations about wellbeing that rarely happened in schools. “It gave me this opportunity to think about myself and my practice,” she said, “and me as a human in the context of teaching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving Schools Through Systems\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well’s leaders are careful not to frame burnout as an individual problem that teachers can solve through breathing exercises alone. Fuller says lasting change requires attention to the conditions teachers work within. At Redwood Heights, that meant coaching and support for principal Bagby as well, who says the work has helped create a shared language around relationships, stress and conflict. “What I appreciate about The Teaching Well is they’ve given us practices to maintain that human element—the compassionate element— of how we relate to each other,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching Well partnerships typically last 3-5 years. The organization posits that quick wellness initiatives often fail because they don’t address underlying causes of burnout. “We love to invest in Band-Aids,” Fuller said. “We are reticent to invest in root-cause strategy and sustained support.” The model also depends on buy-in from school and district leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Redwood Heights Elementary, teacher retention rose from 75% in the 2022–23 school year to 91% in 2024–25, \u003ca href=\"https://dashboards.ousd.org/t/HR/views/RetentionDashboardPublic/TeachersatSites?%3Aembed=y&%3AshowShareOptions=true&%3Adisplay_count=no&%3AshowVizHome=no\">a 16-percentage-point increase\u003c/a> during the school’s partnership with The Teaching Well. Across its partner schools nationally, the organization says it retained 85% of participating educators. While individual teachers can benefit from mentoring or therapy, broader cultural changes require administrators willing to examine policies, expectations and workplace conditions. In other words, supporting teachers is not just about helping them become more resilient. It’s also about changing the systems in which they work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research increasingly suggests that teacher wellbeing affects students as well. “We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65836/strict-rules-can-foster-calm-classrooms-but-some-students-pay-the-price\">exclusionary discipline\u003c/a>,” Fuller said. “When a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the changes have shown up in smaller moments. When she notices herself becoming stressed, she now uses some of the same \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53306/how-mindfulness-can-help-teachers-and-students-manage-challenging-situations\">somatic practices\u003c/a> she learned through mentoring and professional development. She has also introduced breathing exercises into her first grade classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whenever we come in from lunch or recess, before we do anything, it’s time for breath work,” Rogers said. The experience has changed the way she interprets \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">student behavior\u003c/a>. “It’s allowed me to view my students in a different way [by] thinking about a trauma-informed response and what they might need,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Three years after she considered leaving teaching, Rogers is still at Redwood Heights. Recently, she found herself looking around her classroom and reflecting on how much her students have grown in a school year that seemed to fly by. “They’re doing it. It’s happening. Like their brains are growing” she said, “I’m like ‘Look at you reading.’”\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was probably crying most days coming to school like ‘How am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, kindergarten teacher Becca Rogers thought she might have to leave teaching altogether. She was having serious health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like having this immune reaction that Western medicine could not figure out. I was losing a ton of weight, I was having these really reactive experiences with food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And every morning, she still had to walk into a kindergarten classroom full of five-year-olds. Little kids who needed help opening snacks and learning how to stand in line. And while she was trying to care for all of them, she was barely holding herself together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>That’s what was going on. I was a hot mess in education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I was little, I thought teachers lived at school. A lot of kids think that. But I think even adults can forget that teachers are carrying entire lives and struggles into the classroom with them. Increasingly, many are burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>National surveys have found that teachers report higher rates of burnout than many other professions. And in recent years, schools across the country have struggled to retain educators. That stress doesn’t just affect teachers, it can shape classroom climate, student relationships, and even disciplinary outcomes. In this episode, we look at what happens when schools start treating teacher wellbeing as essential — not extra — and what it takes to support the people who care for kids. People like Becca Rogers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to show up with a cold and be sick than call the sub.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Calling out sick can sometimes create its own kind of stress. Teachers might need to prepare another lesson plan or be worried about how the day will go without them. For Becca, it was just easier to push through\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I’m someone who says yes, right? Like I’m a teacher, I’m a union rep. I sit on the board of my child’s preschool. I’m a runner, I am a mom. Like, I have a hard time saying no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At one point her colleague pulled her aside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> And was like, how are you doing? You don’t look good, you don’t sound good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like yeah, I’ve been hiding that I don’t feel good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We are hemorrhaging educators across this country\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lindsey Fuller, executive director of The Teaching Well. The Teaching Well organization works with schools and districts to support educator wellbeing as essential to helping teachers keep teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce, we actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Schools are often asked to work with outside consultants and organizations. But teachers can sometimes feel like the people trying to support them don’t fully understand what classrooms are actually like. At The Teaching Well, the staff are all former educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong> So we get it. That is one of the things that makes us really stand out as an organization. We all have a burnout story. We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed and we will always fight for kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Their team is made up of 13 facilitators and therapists and they approach teacher wellbeing on multiple levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The individual, interpersonal, and systemic level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In practice, that might mean they provide therapy for one teacher, lead professional development sessions for an entire staff, or coach district leaders trying to improve working conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some teachers, conversations about “wellness” can feel disconnected from the realities of overcrowded classrooms, staffing shortages, and impossible workloads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of folks hear wellness and they think it’s all woo-woo, like yoga, Lululemon on the beach. That is not what we’re talking about. There’s rigor and strategy in workplace wellbeing initiatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, the school where Becca works, principal Cynthia Bagby had been watching teachers struggle under increasing pressure. Around the same time Becca was burning out, Cynthia decided to bring in The Teaching Well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby: \u003c/strong>I’ve always wanted to have a program that would kind of take care of the teachers. And like help them to have balance, but also focusing on how they can manage themselves as teachers. And so when I heard about this organization, I thought, oh it matches my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says many teachers enter the profession with deep care for children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> They really want to make a difference in the world. And then when they get in the classroom, it’s challenging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teacher stress is closely tied to high turnover rates, especially in schools serving high-needs communities. Cynthia hoped The Teaching Well could help sustain teachers by giving them the tools to care for themselves and each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> When people feel supported, of course they could show up differently. And then you’re not teaching out of fear, but you’re teaching out a love you’re teaching knowing that someone has your back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Partnerships with the Teaching Well are designed to last 3-5 years. In these long term relationships with schools they’ve been able to retain 85% of teachers they work with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lasting change usually depends on whether school and district leaders are willing to shift the conditions teachers are working in. Cynthia was willing to work directly with teaching well staff to be more responsive to teachers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> I also receive coaching with them too. I get to hear their perspective from the like general feedback they get, maybe from the teachers, kind of keep me to see if I’m aligned with what I believe about leading a school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Improving teacher wellbeing involves buy-in from administrators and a long term commitment. But there is more that can be done to help teachers thrive. We’ll get into what happens at the group and individual level after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Each month the Teaching Well comes to Redwood Heights to do professional development after school. Executive director Lindsey Fuller greets people at the door. About twenty educators come in to sink into chairs arranged in a circle. teacher Becca Rogers is there and so is principal Cynthia Bagby\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>How y’all feeling? One to five, as five being high, One being a low, can I get a number? I just want to see what I’m dealing with today. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> I’m seeing some twos, threes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At the front of the room is facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson Robinson. He starts the session with a somatic practice – These are breathing and movement techniques designed to help regulate the nervous system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>We can’t silence stress, right? But we can turn down the value. So the intention today is to find the knob for the volume. How do we turn that down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>He asks teachers to close their eyes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>Place one hand over your heart if you have your hands available and your belly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> Now take a slow, steady breath in release. Take another one in through your nose this time and exhale through your mouth like a soft sigh. Now we’re going to begin to notice, starting from the top, going down. Start at your forehead, your jaw.….”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Around the room, shoulders drop. A few teachers lean back in their chairs and exhale deeply. For a couple minutes, nobody is redirecting behavior. Nobody is answering emails or prepping lessons.They’re just paying attention to their own bodies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>See if you could turn the volume down just one more notch….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When the exercise ends, teachers slowly blink their eyes open. A few nod quietly to themselves, almost like they’re saying: okay. I’m here now. The sessions are designed to help teachers recognize how stress shows up physically and emotionally. At one point, educators are handed worksheets with car dashboards printed on them. Lindsey explains what they’ll do with them\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna get to do some coloring today, um designing your own dashboard. So we’re going to do a little car metaphor play. Uh and then we’re, we’re gonna help you think about our stress management sequence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea is to think about the warning lights going off internally. She says some stress signals are temporary — like a seatbelt alarm. Others are more serious. The kind you can ignore for a little while, but not forever. She tells the group what is going on in their bodies when this happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The amygdala is a part of your brain that helps alert us when there’s a problem. It says, hey yo… something’s going off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna take about four minutes here, and then we’re gonna invite you a couple of folks to share out. Okay? So let’s get connected. Feel free to turn and talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers sit coloring in dashboards with colored pencils, They’re talking quietly with one another about burnout, frustration, and overload. For teachers like Becca, being asked how they’re doing — and being honest about the answer — was a major shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The group sessions are one part of The Teaching Well’s model. But teachers can also receive individual support through one on one mentoring and clinical therapy. Becca has used both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom and seeing what they can provide me. We do a lot of somatic practices or just thinking out loud or touching base what’s actually happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In one mentoring session, Becca tells Teaching Well’s Marc Anthony Robinson over a video call that it is hard to separate teaching from the rest of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s just nice to just sit for a moment. And it’s good for me because after this, I’m going straight to another thing. I’m gonna the new families event for kindergarten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>So you gotta be back on in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I do. I do have to do this back on again. I know, it doesn’t stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here. And I’m like showering and trying to go to sleep and eat. And I’m, like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong> I have to like, it’s okay. You do not need to like hold that when you leave, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>I’m really just honored to be doing this process and this journey with you because I’ve seen you maneuver through a lot and I’m excited for what this new year is going to bring for you school year wise. It’s like it’s going to feel different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In addition to mentoring Becca has also used the therapy services through Teaching Well. Therapy has also been shown to reduce stress and burnout in teachers, but waitlists and cost can make access difficult. Through Teaching Well, teachers can have up to 16 therapy sessions. And if a teacher needs more, Teaching Well helps them get a therapist through their insurance. Lindsey says that mental health services are becoming more available, but oftentimes they’re just for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> What no one is funding comprehensively yet, and we are looking for, is who is funding the mental health grants and programs for the educators that receive those students, that work with them day in and day out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Educators are often absorbing students’ trauma. This is called vicarious or secondary trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The clinical therapists at the teaching well are also former educators. Which addresses a pitfall that is common in many free therapy programs for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>They’re spending so much time trying to explain the context of working in a school that they don’t get to get to the healing. It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When teachers are well students fare better too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of exclusionary discipline. In other words, when a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class and refer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three years after Becca thought about leaving teaching, she’s still at Redwood Heights. And she says she no longer feels like crying before school every day. Having space to talk about teaching to her mentor and her colleagues helped her reestablish herself and her values\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It gave me this like opportunity to be very meta and think about myself and my practice. And me as a human in the context of teaching\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, when stress rises in the classroom, she notices it earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>When I feel myself getting stressed in the class, I find that’s a time for somatic practice for me and I share that practice with my students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>We also do a lot of breath work. Whenever we come in from lunch, recess, we know before we do anything, it’s time for breath work so we can help with that transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[breathing exercise]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I think it’s also allowed me to view my students in a different way, like thinking about a trauma informed response and like what I need, maybe what they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Becca has more empathy now. More capacity to stay present through hard moments with her students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>They’re really navigating something too, right. They’re human, I’m a human and we’re having this experience together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Shafia Zaloom: Sex Ed and Becoming the Askable Parent",
"publishDate": 1781123663,
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"headTitle": "Shafia Zaloom: Sex Ed and Becoming the Askable Parent | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">In this digital age, kids are surrounded by messages about gender and sexuality. But are parents creating the space for conversation and understanding? Health educator \u003ca href=\"https://www.shafiazaloom.com/\">Shafia Zaloom\u003c/a> has a new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://hep.gse.harvard.edu/9798895570593/getting-real-about-sex-ed/\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need\u003c/span>\u003c/a>,” that guides parents through different stages of development. Having a more contemporary understanding of sex ed can help parents become the “askable parent” when kids have questions about the world — such as how they want to be treated and how that extends to relationships — so they don’t have to rely so heavily on peers, social media and algorithms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9462844781\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the Mind Shift Podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to get an update on sex ed in the United States., sex ed is no longer about just intercourse and preventing pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections. Sexuality education is more nuanced and starts earlier in life. And biologically, that makes a lot of sense. But culturally, we may have a lot catching up to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My guest today is Shafia Zaloom. Health educator and author of \u003ca href=\"https://hep.gse.harvard.edu/9798895570593/getting-real-about-sex-ed/\">Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need\u003c/a>. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Shafia Zaloom, welcome to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>You teach at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and you’re a high school health educator in San Francisco. You also work with schools across the country in states of all political leanings which you describe in your book Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For old timers like me, can you describe the evolution of sex education to sexuality education- What’s the difference and how are they taught differently?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, of course. So when it comes to sex education in particular, that’s mostly information-based and it’s really grounded in sort of medical health, sexual reproductive health, right? So it has to do with preventing unintended pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy. It has to deal with preventing passing of sexually transmitted infections. And it’s very sort of clinical and medical-based. It’s important.\u003cbr>\nBut sexuality education is a lot more holistic and it’s a lot nuanced and it includes a whole lot more. So not just the information, but what do you actually do with it and what’s the meaning we assign to it? It really has to do with… How we relate to ourselves and to the world, how we take care of others, how we treat others because that matters. And that’s really at the heart of comprehensive sexuality education. There’s an ethical aspect to it having to do with decision-making that promotes and encourages relationships grounded in mutual respect, empathy, and dignity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>As a health educator, you must get asked all kinds of questions by students of all ages. What are some of the most frequently asked questions you get from middle schoolers and teens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>It is such a tremendous range, and I’ve been doing this for 30 years, right? So the questions have been the same for 30 years, and then other questions have sort of evolved and become different. And then there’s brand new stuff. And the brand new staff sometimes changes constantly because it’s within a context of digital spaces. And so it’s just super interesting, you know, for the younger kids from middle school. You know, they’ll just ask basic direct questions. What is this? What is that? How do I know if I like girls or boys? How do know if someone really has a crush on me? How do tell my best friend that I don’t like it when they’re always hugging me? You know questions like that that have sort of transcended time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have some kids now in middle school who are asking about pornography. Which is different because it’s so ubiquitous, it’s still accessible now, that I see more questions that are very specific to certain types of media and what they’re exposed to in media. You know, what is popping the cherry mean? What’s a grundle? What’s gooning? You know, all these different sort of, this different kind of language that exists in digital spaces that they’re expose to. And are sort of wrestling with to make meaning of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then as kids get older in high school, the stakes feel a lot higher. I get a lot like to shave or not to shave. How do I make it not hurt when I lose my virginity? Questions like when is it okay to have sex with someone? How do you know what real trust actually is? Really pretty important and intense questions that also reveal… These aren’t being discussed in other spaces, right? That this is one of the first times someone has asked them, you know, what are you curious about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And a lot of times too now, which is different from the past, kids are asking me to legitimize something. I heard that, or is it true that…” kind of questions having to do with what they’re exposed to in media, like “what’s a blue waffle? Can girls pee out of their vaginas?” Like there’s all kinds of different things that they’re exposed to that they are wondering about. Most of the time they’ll just Google, right? And so they get this information and then they have this intuitive response of like, I don’t know if that can actually be right. And then they ask it in class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Uh… That sounds way more complicated than I think the questions were asked in my sex ed class a long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> [Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Um, how do you navigate that world? Or maybe the better question is how are the kids navigating? You mentioned they’re searching online, but it seems like an endless rabbit hole that could lead you to pretty dark places, especially at a very young age, because I saw this study that showed that kids are encountering porn. The average age that they encounter porn is 12, and it happens a lot at school just by clicking through links unassumingly. And so that’s what I wonder, like how do you think they’re navigating the space? You mentioned like parents, but what else are they doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>I think more parents are trying to talk about these things, and modern parents, and good for them, yay, and we’re trying to get folks to talk about this more, but we’ll check the box around like, okay, I talk to my kids about consent, I talk my kid about STIs, I talk about birth control, things like that, if we’re talking about teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then I have a kid come up to me to say, okay, I know the definition of consent, and my parents keep telling me, you know, I should respect women or I should respect whomever, whatever it may be. But what does that mean exactly? Right, like that’s the followup question that I’m now getting, what does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think that’s important. The Googling, absolutely, a lot of times pornography will come up. It’s a lot harder for kids to avoid coming across porn or sexually explicit material than it is not to these days. And so then that, you know, that’s a whole rabbit hole in of itself. And because we’re not providing, and in fact currently rolling back comprehensive sexuality education courses in schools, you know. Kids are turning to pornography. It’s become the default sex ed of this country. That’s like watching the Fast and the Furious to learn how to drive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so, you know, kids are looking for information from their friends. They’re looking to social media. They’re asking Google. And for parents, if you’re not talking to your kid about sexuality, you’re the only person not talking your kid about sexuality because their friends are, the internet is, you know all these different influencers who are out there. And so that’s why this conversation is so important, not only in learning spaces, but also at home, because parenting adults, a kid’s guardian is the primary sexuality educator in a child’s life. That has been true forever. I don’t know a single professional sexuality educator who doesn’t believe that. And it’s challenging. It’s really hard to keep up, especially if you haven’t had a positive experience with that education yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>I think one of the most fascinating aspects of your book is that you lay out a lot of real life scenarios in school in very precise language. For example, I’ve never heard of the term, and I think it’s okay to say, clamper. Oh yeah. It’s probably in a category of behaviors that…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> happened on school campuses or elsewhere outside of the school. Can you describe what that is and how you’ve addressed that in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, for sure. So clamping, depending on what classroom you’re in, and this tends to start sort of young, right? In the case of my book, there’s a field trip and they’re walking upstairs in a museum. There are different terms for it too, euphemisms, like fish in the creek, clamping. You know, a lot of different ways by which kids will reference this behavior. You know the euphemism is supposed to make it humorous, which sort of excuses the. Inappropriate or aggressive behavior behind it. And it’s basically poking someone in the butt and in the butt crack in particular and thinking that that’s really funny. And I don’t know a lot of kids who actually think that is very funny, but this is also happening during a time when they’re negotiating social landscapes, social power and currency, and how we connect to and relate to each other and what kind of influence different kids have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So in addressing that, there are two things we need to do, and sometimes there’s a third. If there’s kid who brings that to your attention, because sometimes there is, right? There’s the kid who will say, hey, this is going on. Did you see this? Did you know this? They go to the adult because they’re looking for some sort of help, because intuitively they know that this isn’t something that’s okay. And that kid needs to be recognized, right, because… When it comes to that dynamic, you know, the topic of snitching comes up, it’s really important to be very concrete about the difference between snitching, which is telling on someone on purpose to get them in trouble on purpose, and reporting, which is where you’re sharing information, asking for help trying to support community and righting a wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then you have two other things: You have the kid who actually experienced the clamp or the poke, the unwanted poking, and then you have the kid who actually did it. And so those are two kids, usually the kid who does it, it’s important to remove their audience. When we address these things publicly, it’s important to say something, to stand for what’s right, to hold people accountable to the guidelines you’ve set up in your classroom or amongst each other in your community. But we don’t want to go too far because for adolescents when we go too far in a public setting, they shut down because it feels shameful. And so what we want to do is say something so that people know oh okay the teacher is aware the the caretaking adult knows this is happening and so they’re going to take care of it but they’re also going to honor and respect that kids make mistakes and that we have the opportunity to learn from them so that we can be better people. And that’s what you’re going do in private right? That’s what you’re going to do with discretion, not secrecy. That’s different. But hold kids accountable in a way that honors privacy and the opportunity to become available to the learning and the guidance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that social learning is going to be critical. So we want to support the kid who experienced it, find out how they felt about it, how things are going, what kind of support they may need. The other kid, we’re doing something similar. And we really want to get behind that behavior to see what need is. They’re trying to meet by engaging in that behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Were they looking for connection? Were they are looking for affirmation through attention?, whether it was negative or positive, didn’t really matter for them, like, whatever it may have been, help them understand how their choice in making that, getting that need met actually didn’t serve them or anyone else. And it’s absolutely not acceptable. And so then what are the other options for them when they’re feeling that way to get those needs met, in a way that actually then affirms what they’re trying to figure out, how they’re in the classroom and how they are part of community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>And I guess that can also be applicable to other interactions one has with others in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Oh, 100%, yes. And it’s an opportunity to give, to impart a lesson to and to reinforce information, right? That very rarely do any of us, the first time we hear something, especially if we’re a young person, right, are we gonna remember, internalize, and make that a part of our practice? Practice is essential. That’s why kids are in school. And so that kid, it’s also an opportunity to review consent, bodily autonomy, asking permission, what accountability actually means, the value of community, what we’re actually going for in our relationships, who we wanna be. There’s a ton of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>But the scenario you describe is really detailed, as are a lot of incidents that are really uncomfortable or challenging. And I think what you do really well is lay out several raw descriptions of conflict you’ve heard about or seen on campus, including the use of slurs. And a lot those instances, when boundaries are crossed, you often end up with a student reply of, I was just joking or I didn’t mean it. So how do you address that seemingly common response to an infraction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>That’s such a good question. You know, I think, so it’s so important when working with young people in particular that we get, that we recognize the behavior, that we hold them accountable, but that we also guide them to what’s behind the behavior. And I think that’s… The most important piece is when these things come up, because kids are in gender and sexuality school all the time, all day, every day, it’s constantly being modeled for them. They’re being socialized by all these different social institutions all the times, is that we guide them towards those universal values that we think are really important when it comes to relationships with others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what our culture teaches kids, because sex is everywhere and nowhere all at once. It’s something that a lot of people don’t have a lot practice talking about in really positive, productive, constructive ways. And so when it comes to kids, they’ve learned that when we talk about sex, if we veil it in humor, that we can get away with a lot behaviors. That if we didn’t veil them in humor, would definitely not be okay, that would be disrespectful, would be considered rude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this is a way by which sort of the sex stigmatization that has historically been a part of our culture continues and is perpetuated. So when talking with kids, it’s really important first that we not shame and this is the thing, most adults have been socialized to respond to issues of sexuality that would warrant, oh, I was just kidding, it’s not a big deal, I didn’t mean it that way, with some sort of shame, fear avoidance versus care, love, and affirmation. Because that’s the counter narrative, right, the care, love, and affirmation. And a lot of times kids, especially adolescents, are just mirroring and trying on navigating the gauntlet to adulthood of what they see in adult culture. So we have to help them understand. We have to contextualize it for them. We have to get behind the behavior to help understand the feelings that are there and what values we’re actually aspiring to. And the reason why that behavior actually erodes relationships and community versus affirms and builds them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m wondering if you can make a connection to being an adult by having these experiences early. How do they manifest in an adult’s life? And by experiences I mean standing up for yourself or communicating what you want or how you need to be treated and like entering into interactions with understanding instead of shame. I mean, you just mentioned many things here. So I guess generally like, you know, if somebody has this kind of experience, how does that project into their lives as an adult?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Well, what we understand and know about social learning is that one, it makes us available to feel socially connected, actually improves and cultivates the capacity for young people to learn effectively. What we also know about learning is that we need practice and it needs to be scaffolded over time in a developmentally appropriate way. And so when we take this on, you know, Freud said that the two most important things in life are work and love. And this is ultimately comprehensive sexuality education. You know, we forget this sometimes because of our history of stigmatizing it, is that this is about cultivating the capacity to love and be loved. And so that requires skills. It requires being attuned to yourself and others. You know, skills are something we have to practice and build over time. And so when you have someone who’s had the benefit of these skills, of this sort of reinforcement, the contextualizing, applying these skills and cultivating these capacities in different contexts across different experiences, you have some one who actually becomes more considerate of others, who’s able to be attuned to others and to themselves to act in ways that are ethical in terms of how we treat each other because that really matters, who can exercise empathy, who can ask for help when they need it, and who have the language and the practice to verbalize what they’re thinking and feeling when they need to ask for that, or when they see that others need it too and offer it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s a really important piece. I wanna make sure we don’t only focus on self. We really have to balance how we connect with ourselves as individuals with becoming community-minded and understanding the value of being socially connected and in community with other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So what tips do you have for parents who really struggle with their discomfort around talking about sexuality and relationships with their kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>I mean, as much as we can is get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable, which is such a valuable thing to model, right? That sometimes the hardest conversations are the most important ones to have in a relationship. And there are plenty of scripts and resources out there, some great books for having these conversations with young people across developmental stages in ways that are cognitively congruent. And so I would say it’s really important for a parent to educate themselves to find those resources that align with their values so that they can start early. And it’s never too late, I wanna say that too. And to provide their kid with medically accurate, credible information first and foremost. But the most important piece is actually the values stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So to get concrete around it, let’s say you’re in the car with your kid and you let them DJ for the ride. And a song comes on, you can simply drop a question, like, “huh, do you think this is about infatuation or authentic connection? Because I’m not really sure, you know?” It’s just a question like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or you’re watching as a family, you’re a watching a show, or you’re just watching something with your kid, or you heard they’re watching something, so you start to watch it too. And you talk about the characters like real people. And you say like, well, do you think that was wordless consent? Do you think that that was actually like a response that really honored and respected what they wanted or their right to make a decision or I noticed they changed their mind, you know, like that kind of a thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And you’re not, you’re not launching, um, and you’re just collecting these beautiful moments that you scaffold over time, and then you can go back and you can sort of embellish and bedazzle and hang all kinds of beautiful things on the scaffolding, but it’s really important to get that foundational piece first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, becoming the askable parent means that we have our eyes and ears open, and for adolescents, a lot of times that’s not on our time, it’s on their time, right, like late at night or whatever else because their circadian rhythms have shifted. And we’re doing a lot values education in particular, you know, we want to make sure they have access to the medically accurate information, but then the values education and how we apply that information to interpersonal dynamics is going to be super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so for kids, even saying, hey, I heard this podcast and there was this woman speaking about sexuality education. Are you getting any of that in school and in what ways? And how’s it been? What do you think about it? Kids love to, they have a keen sense of justice too. Could even say, she said this, do you think that’s true? Have you seen that come up? Do you think that would be valuable information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But those are the ways that I. I think parents can become askable when it comes to their kids. And it doesn’t mean being your kid’s friend. They really need a parent with boundaries and doing the hard stuff. And how do you get comfortable with being uncomfortable? Those sorts of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So I want to ask you, for maybe millennials, Gen Xers who grew up in a different era of sex ed, can you identify some myths about sexuality education that adults should consider unlearning?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>I think this is true of all adults, actually, just because it’s interesting, I think the stigmatizing aspect of sexuality has been perpetuated across its cyclical, right, generational cycles of this, and we really need to move away from that, and that requires people to work on themselves. And earlier you had asked about how can parents become askable parents, right? And get comfortable with this. And part of that’s a parent’s responsibility to do with other people their own age, right. Like your own friends, have conversations about this, practice having this conversation. The myths that are out there are that if we tell kids then they’re gonna go run out and do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s no empirical evidence whatsoever. That tells us that’s the case. In fact, the inverse is true. And so, you know, that’s just when we’ve put political ideology above student health and perpetuated stigmatizing ideas around sexuality. All you have to do is look at the Dutch. I mean, they start age-appropriate sexuality education in preschool and kindergarten, and it follows them all up into adulthood. You know, their focus is really on responsibility and joy. Versus like disaster prevention, fear and avoidance. And so, and their young people are far more relational, their STI and unintended pregnancy rates are like some of the lowest in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, it’s really important that we understand…we spend more, we invest more in fire prevention and fire safety, like information and learning with young people than we do on sex ed. And when you give that education to kids, like, okay, here’s how we prevent fires or how we deal with them if there is one or whatever else they don’t go home and start making fires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I tell young people that this is what adults believe, that if they acquire a sex education, they’re gonna run out and go start having sex, they look at me like I have three heads. And they’re offended. They’re like, really? And then they get funny and they’re like oh, think of all the other things that they tell us to do when they spend all this time trying to teach us and how we don’t do them. Right? Um, so I think that’s the biggest one is, uh, that if we tell them they’re automatically going to go out and do, um, because all the evidence and there’s tons of it, decades of it tells us that if engage in age appropriate comprehensive sexuality education as it’s meant to be, that all the things we hope for our kids, there’s a higher probability of that happening than the inverse, which people are afraid of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for all that context and guiding us to become the Askable parent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Thank you for having me and your interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Shafia Zaloom is the author of the recently published book, Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need. She’s a health educator who teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and at a high school in San Francisco and consults schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Credits: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">In this digital age, kids are surrounded by messages about gender and sexuality. But are parents creating the space for conversation and understanding? Health educator \u003ca href=\"https://www.shafiazaloom.com/\">Shafia Zaloom\u003c/a> has a new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://hep.gse.harvard.edu/9798895570593/getting-real-about-sex-ed/\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need\u003c/span>\u003c/a>,” that guides parents through different stages of development. Having a more contemporary understanding of sex ed can help parents become the “askable parent” when kids have questions about the world — such as how they want to be treated and how that extends to relationships — so they don’t have to rely so heavily on peers, social media and algorithms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9462844781\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome to the Mind Shift Podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to get an update on sex ed in the United States., sex ed is no longer about just intercourse and preventing pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections. Sexuality education is more nuanced and starts earlier in life. And biologically, that makes a lot of sense. But culturally, we may have a lot catching up to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My guest today is Shafia Zaloom. Health educator and author of \u003ca href=\"https://hep.gse.harvard.edu/9798895570593/getting-real-about-sex-ed/\">Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need\u003c/a>. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Shafia Zaloom, welcome to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>You teach at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and you’re a high school health educator in San Francisco. You also work with schools across the country in states of all political leanings which you describe in your book Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For old timers like me, can you describe the evolution of sex education to sexuality education- What’s the difference and how are they taught differently?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, of course. So when it comes to sex education in particular, that’s mostly information-based and it’s really grounded in sort of medical health, sexual reproductive health, right? So it has to do with preventing unintended pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy. It has to deal with preventing passing of sexually transmitted infections. And it’s very sort of clinical and medical-based. It’s important.\u003cbr>\nBut sexuality education is a lot more holistic and it’s a lot nuanced and it includes a whole lot more. So not just the information, but what do you actually do with it and what’s the meaning we assign to it? It really has to do with… How we relate to ourselves and to the world, how we take care of others, how we treat others because that matters. And that’s really at the heart of comprehensive sexuality education. There’s an ethical aspect to it having to do with decision-making that promotes and encourages relationships grounded in mutual respect, empathy, and dignity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>As a health educator, you must get asked all kinds of questions by students of all ages. What are some of the most frequently asked questions you get from middle schoolers and teens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>It is such a tremendous range, and I’ve been doing this for 30 years, right? So the questions have been the same for 30 years, and then other questions have sort of evolved and become different. And then there’s brand new stuff. And the brand new staff sometimes changes constantly because it’s within a context of digital spaces. And so it’s just super interesting, you know, for the younger kids from middle school. You know, they’ll just ask basic direct questions. What is this? What is that? How do I know if I like girls or boys? How do know if someone really has a crush on me? How do tell my best friend that I don’t like it when they’re always hugging me? You know questions like that that have sort of transcended time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have some kids now in middle school who are asking about pornography. Which is different because it’s so ubiquitous, it’s still accessible now, that I see more questions that are very specific to certain types of media and what they’re exposed to in media. You know, what is popping the cherry mean? What’s a grundle? What’s gooning? You know, all these different sort of, this different kind of language that exists in digital spaces that they’re expose to. And are sort of wrestling with to make meaning of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then as kids get older in high school, the stakes feel a lot higher. I get a lot like to shave or not to shave. How do I make it not hurt when I lose my virginity? Questions like when is it okay to have sex with someone? How do you know what real trust actually is? Really pretty important and intense questions that also reveal… These aren’t being discussed in other spaces, right? That this is one of the first times someone has asked them, you know, what are you curious about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And a lot of times too now, which is different from the past, kids are asking me to legitimize something. I heard that, or is it true that…” kind of questions having to do with what they’re exposed to in media, like “what’s a blue waffle? Can girls pee out of their vaginas?” Like there’s all kinds of different things that they’re exposed to that they are wondering about. Most of the time they’ll just Google, right? And so they get this information and then they have this intuitive response of like, I don’t know if that can actually be right. And then they ask it in class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Uh… That sounds way more complicated than I think the questions were asked in my sex ed class a long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> [Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Um, how do you navigate that world? Or maybe the better question is how are the kids navigating? You mentioned they’re searching online, but it seems like an endless rabbit hole that could lead you to pretty dark places, especially at a very young age, because I saw this study that showed that kids are encountering porn. The average age that they encounter porn is 12, and it happens a lot at school just by clicking through links unassumingly. And so that’s what I wonder, like how do you think they’re navigating the space? You mentioned like parents, but what else are they doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>I think more parents are trying to talk about these things, and modern parents, and good for them, yay, and we’re trying to get folks to talk about this more, but we’ll check the box around like, okay, I talk to my kids about consent, I talk my kid about STIs, I talk about birth control, things like that, if we’re talking about teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then I have a kid come up to me to say, okay, I know the definition of consent, and my parents keep telling me, you know, I should respect women or I should respect whomever, whatever it may be. But what does that mean exactly? Right, like that’s the followup question that I’m now getting, what does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think that’s important. The Googling, absolutely, a lot of times pornography will come up. It’s a lot harder for kids to avoid coming across porn or sexually explicit material than it is not to these days. And so then that, you know, that’s a whole rabbit hole in of itself. And because we’re not providing, and in fact currently rolling back comprehensive sexuality education courses in schools, you know. Kids are turning to pornography. It’s become the default sex ed of this country. That’s like watching the Fast and the Furious to learn how to drive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so, you know, kids are looking for information from their friends. They’re looking to social media. They’re asking Google. And for parents, if you’re not talking to your kid about sexuality, you’re the only person not talking your kid about sexuality because their friends are, the internet is, you know all these different influencers who are out there. And so that’s why this conversation is so important, not only in learning spaces, but also at home, because parenting adults, a kid’s guardian is the primary sexuality educator in a child’s life. That has been true forever. I don’t know a single professional sexuality educator who doesn’t believe that. And it’s challenging. It’s really hard to keep up, especially if you haven’t had a positive experience with that education yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>I think one of the most fascinating aspects of your book is that you lay out a lot of real life scenarios in school in very precise language. For example, I’ve never heard of the term, and I think it’s okay to say, clamper. Oh yeah. It’s probably in a category of behaviors that…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> happened on school campuses or elsewhere outside of the school. Can you describe what that is and how you’ve addressed that in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, for sure. So clamping, depending on what classroom you’re in, and this tends to start sort of young, right? In the case of my book, there’s a field trip and they’re walking upstairs in a museum. There are different terms for it too, euphemisms, like fish in the creek, clamping. You know, a lot of different ways by which kids will reference this behavior. You know the euphemism is supposed to make it humorous, which sort of excuses the. Inappropriate or aggressive behavior behind it. And it’s basically poking someone in the butt and in the butt crack in particular and thinking that that’s really funny. And I don’t know a lot of kids who actually think that is very funny, but this is also happening during a time when they’re negotiating social landscapes, social power and currency, and how we connect to and relate to each other and what kind of influence different kids have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So in addressing that, there are two things we need to do, and sometimes there’s a third. If there’s kid who brings that to your attention, because sometimes there is, right? There’s the kid who will say, hey, this is going on. Did you see this? Did you know this? They go to the adult because they’re looking for some sort of help, because intuitively they know that this isn’t something that’s okay. And that kid needs to be recognized, right, because… When it comes to that dynamic, you know, the topic of snitching comes up, it’s really important to be very concrete about the difference between snitching, which is telling on someone on purpose to get them in trouble on purpose, and reporting, which is where you’re sharing information, asking for help trying to support community and righting a wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then you have two other things: You have the kid who actually experienced the clamp or the poke, the unwanted poking, and then you have the kid who actually did it. And so those are two kids, usually the kid who does it, it’s important to remove their audience. When we address these things publicly, it’s important to say something, to stand for what’s right, to hold people accountable to the guidelines you’ve set up in your classroom or amongst each other in your community. But we don’t want to go too far because for adolescents when we go too far in a public setting, they shut down because it feels shameful. And so what we want to do is say something so that people know oh okay the teacher is aware the the caretaking adult knows this is happening and so they’re going to take care of it but they’re also going to honor and respect that kids make mistakes and that we have the opportunity to learn from them so that we can be better people. And that’s what you’re going do in private right? That’s what you’re going to do with discretion, not secrecy. That’s different. But hold kids accountable in a way that honors privacy and the opportunity to become available to the learning and the guidance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that social learning is going to be critical. So we want to support the kid who experienced it, find out how they felt about it, how things are going, what kind of support they may need. The other kid, we’re doing something similar. And we really want to get behind that behavior to see what need is. They’re trying to meet by engaging in that behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Were they looking for connection? Were they are looking for affirmation through attention?, whether it was negative or positive, didn’t really matter for them, like, whatever it may have been, help them understand how their choice in making that, getting that need met actually didn’t serve them or anyone else. And it’s absolutely not acceptable. And so then what are the other options for them when they’re feeling that way to get those needs met, in a way that actually then affirms what they’re trying to figure out, how they’re in the classroom and how they are part of community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>And I guess that can also be applicable to other interactions one has with others in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Oh, 100%, yes. And it’s an opportunity to give, to impart a lesson to and to reinforce information, right? That very rarely do any of us, the first time we hear something, especially if we’re a young person, right, are we gonna remember, internalize, and make that a part of our practice? Practice is essential. That’s why kids are in school. And so that kid, it’s also an opportunity to review consent, bodily autonomy, asking permission, what accountability actually means, the value of community, what we’re actually going for in our relationships, who we wanna be. There’s a ton of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>But the scenario you describe is really detailed, as are a lot of incidents that are really uncomfortable or challenging. And I think what you do really well is lay out several raw descriptions of conflict you’ve heard about or seen on campus, including the use of slurs. And a lot those instances, when boundaries are crossed, you often end up with a student reply of, I was just joking or I didn’t mean it. So how do you address that seemingly common response to an infraction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>That’s such a good question. You know, I think, so it’s so important when working with young people in particular that we get, that we recognize the behavior, that we hold them accountable, but that we also guide them to what’s behind the behavior. And I think that’s… The most important piece is when these things come up, because kids are in gender and sexuality school all the time, all day, every day, it’s constantly being modeled for them. They’re being socialized by all these different social institutions all the times, is that we guide them towards those universal values that we think are really important when it comes to relationships with others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what our culture teaches kids, because sex is everywhere and nowhere all at once. It’s something that a lot of people don’t have a lot practice talking about in really positive, productive, constructive ways. And so when it comes to kids, they’ve learned that when we talk about sex, if we veil it in humor, that we can get away with a lot behaviors. That if we didn’t veil them in humor, would definitely not be okay, that would be disrespectful, would be considered rude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this is a way by which sort of the sex stigmatization that has historically been a part of our culture continues and is perpetuated. So when talking with kids, it’s really important first that we not shame and this is the thing, most adults have been socialized to respond to issues of sexuality that would warrant, oh, I was just kidding, it’s not a big deal, I didn’t mean it that way, with some sort of shame, fear avoidance versus care, love, and affirmation. Because that’s the counter narrative, right, the care, love, and affirmation. And a lot of times kids, especially adolescents, are just mirroring and trying on navigating the gauntlet to adulthood of what they see in adult culture. So we have to help them understand. We have to contextualize it for them. We have to get behind the behavior to help understand the feelings that are there and what values we’re actually aspiring to. And the reason why that behavior actually erodes relationships and community versus affirms and builds them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>I’m wondering if you can make a connection to being an adult by having these experiences early. How do they manifest in an adult’s life? And by experiences I mean standing up for yourself or communicating what you want or how you need to be treated and like entering into interactions with understanding instead of shame. I mean, you just mentioned many things here. So I guess generally like, you know, if somebody has this kind of experience, how does that project into their lives as an adult?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Well, what we understand and know about social learning is that one, it makes us available to feel socially connected, actually improves and cultivates the capacity for young people to learn effectively. What we also know about learning is that we need practice and it needs to be scaffolded over time in a developmentally appropriate way. And so when we take this on, you know, Freud said that the two most important things in life are work and love. And this is ultimately comprehensive sexuality education. You know, we forget this sometimes because of our history of stigmatizing it, is that this is about cultivating the capacity to love and be loved. And so that requires skills. It requires being attuned to yourself and others. You know, skills are something we have to practice and build over time. And so when you have someone who’s had the benefit of these skills, of this sort of reinforcement, the contextualizing, applying these skills and cultivating these capacities in different contexts across different experiences, you have some one who actually becomes more considerate of others, who’s able to be attuned to others and to themselves to act in ways that are ethical in terms of how we treat each other because that really matters, who can exercise empathy, who can ask for help when they need it, and who have the language and the practice to verbalize what they’re thinking and feeling when they need to ask for that, or when they see that others need it too and offer it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s a really important piece. I wanna make sure we don’t only focus on self. We really have to balance how we connect with ourselves as individuals with becoming community-minded and understanding the value of being socially connected and in community with other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So what tips do you have for parents who really struggle with their discomfort around talking about sexuality and relationships with their kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>I mean, as much as we can is get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable, which is such a valuable thing to model, right? That sometimes the hardest conversations are the most important ones to have in a relationship. And there are plenty of scripts and resources out there, some great books for having these conversations with young people across developmental stages in ways that are cognitively congruent. And so I would say it’s really important for a parent to educate themselves to find those resources that align with their values so that they can start early. And it’s never too late, I wanna say that too. And to provide their kid with medically accurate, credible information first and foremost. But the most important piece is actually the values stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So to get concrete around it, let’s say you’re in the car with your kid and you let them DJ for the ride. And a song comes on, you can simply drop a question, like, “huh, do you think this is about infatuation or authentic connection? Because I’m not really sure, you know?” It’s just a question like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or you’re watching as a family, you’re a watching a show, or you’re just watching something with your kid, or you heard they’re watching something, so you start to watch it too. And you talk about the characters like real people. And you say like, well, do you think that was wordless consent? Do you think that that was actually like a response that really honored and respected what they wanted or their right to make a decision or I noticed they changed their mind, you know, like that kind of a thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And you’re not, you’re not launching, um, and you’re just collecting these beautiful moments that you scaffold over time, and then you can go back and you can sort of embellish and bedazzle and hang all kinds of beautiful things on the scaffolding, but it’s really important to get that foundational piece first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, becoming the askable parent means that we have our eyes and ears open, and for adolescents, a lot of times that’s not on our time, it’s on their time, right, like late at night or whatever else because their circadian rhythms have shifted. And we’re doing a lot values education in particular, you know, we want to make sure they have access to the medically accurate information, but then the values education and how we apply that information to interpersonal dynamics is going to be super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so for kids, even saying, hey, I heard this podcast and there was this woman speaking about sexuality education. Are you getting any of that in school and in what ways? And how’s it been? What do you think about it? Kids love to, they have a keen sense of justice too. Could even say, she said this, do you think that’s true? Have you seen that come up? Do you think that would be valuable information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But those are the ways that I. I think parents can become askable when it comes to their kids. And it doesn’t mean being your kid’s friend. They really need a parent with boundaries and doing the hard stuff. And how do you get comfortable with being uncomfortable? Those sorts of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So I want to ask you, for maybe millennials, Gen Xers who grew up in a different era of sex ed, can you identify some myths about sexuality education that adults should consider unlearning?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>I think this is true of all adults, actually, just because it’s interesting, I think the stigmatizing aspect of sexuality has been perpetuated across its cyclical, right, generational cycles of this, and we really need to move away from that, and that requires people to work on themselves. And earlier you had asked about how can parents become askable parents, right? And get comfortable with this. And part of that’s a parent’s responsibility to do with other people their own age, right. Like your own friends, have conversations about this, practice having this conversation. The myths that are out there are that if we tell kids then they’re gonna go run out and do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s no empirical evidence whatsoever. That tells us that’s the case. In fact, the inverse is true. And so, you know, that’s just when we’ve put political ideology above student health and perpetuated stigmatizing ideas around sexuality. All you have to do is look at the Dutch. I mean, they start age-appropriate sexuality education in preschool and kindergarten, and it follows them all up into adulthood. You know, their focus is really on responsibility and joy. Versus like disaster prevention, fear and avoidance. And so, and their young people are far more relational, their STI and unintended pregnancy rates are like some of the lowest in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, it’s really important that we understand…we spend more, we invest more in fire prevention and fire safety, like information and learning with young people than we do on sex ed. And when you give that education to kids, like, okay, here’s how we prevent fires or how we deal with them if there is one or whatever else they don’t go home and start making fires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I tell young people that this is what adults believe, that if they acquire a sex education, they’re gonna run out and go start having sex, they look at me like I have three heads. And they’re offended. They’re like, really? And then they get funny and they’re like oh, think of all the other things that they tell us to do when they spend all this time trying to teach us and how we don’t do them. Right? Um, so I think that’s the biggest one is, uh, that if we tell them they’re automatically going to go out and do, um, because all the evidence and there’s tons of it, decades of it tells us that if engage in age appropriate comprehensive sexuality education as it’s meant to be, that all the things we hope for our kids, there’s a higher probability of that happening than the inverse, which people are afraid of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for all that context and guiding us to become the Askable parent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shafia Zaloom: \u003c/strong>Thank you for having me and your interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Shafia Zaloom is the author of the recently published book, Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today’s Students Need. She’s a health educator who teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and at a high school in San Francisco and consults schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Credits: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ki Sung talks with clinical psychologist and author Ross Greene about why traditional discipline strategies often fail students, and what educators can do instead. Greene explains his \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions\u003c/a> model, which shifts the focus away from rewards and punishments and toward identifying the unmet needs and unsolved problems behind student behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"http://www.youtube.com/embed/4qsGTXLnmKs\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. There’s been no shortage of stories about what’s troubling kids today, the outbursts, the apathy, the mental health concerns. We’re seeing some signs of progress through solutions like limiting screen time and having more in real-life social interactions, but there are still students who need help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-66349\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"265\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg 265w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg-160x242.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 265px) 100vw, 265px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene developed the \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model\u003c/a> to help all students, and it requires a different way of responding to students’ behavior. He’s the author of the recently published book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> He’s also the bestselling author of several other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome, Dr. Greene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for being here. Let’s talk first about what you describe as concerning behavior, the stuff that gets kids sent to the principal’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You say concerning behavior is how kids communicate that they’re having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. Can you tell us more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I do say that all the time, and I wish everybody knew that. We’ve, we’ve all become accustomed to the cliche “All behavior is communication.” Somehow, it doesn’t translate for a lot of people that concerning behavior communicates that a kid is frustrated or distressed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Concerning behavior is a frustration or distress response, and almost always, what the student is frustrated or distressed about is an expectation that they’re having difficulty meeting. Um, if all we pay attention to is the behavior, then we’re gonna be kinda narrow in what we can do, or… ’cause when you’re focused on behavior, all you can really do is try to modify it, and that’s usually accomplished through some mix of rewards and punishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But rewards and punishments, what a lot of people refer to as consequences, aren’t problem-solving strategies. So we have a lot of students who have experienced a lot of consequences and who are still doing poorly because the problems that are causing the behaviors that we’ve been busy consequencing often haven’t even been identified, let alone solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, it’s kinda wild to hear you say that because I hear a lot of focus on the behavior. So what are you proposing we do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I am proposing that we de-emphasize our focus on behavior, and by the way, our focus on behavior Is all around us. We are, um… When we have a kid who’s struggling and communicating that they’re struggling through their behavior, we do behavior checklists, we do behavior observations, we do a functional behavior assessment all so that we can come up with a behavior plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> When a student is struggling in a classroom and communicate that through their concerning behavior, they get a discipline referral, and what the, the information that is mostly passed along to the people who are on the receiving end of those discipline referrals is the kid’s concerning behavior. And what they often do about it is give the kid consequences for their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We need to instead, um, focus on the problems that are causing that behavior. I call them unsolved problems. The synonym for unsolved problem is unmet expectation. This includes things like stuff classroom teachers deal with every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, difficulty coming back into the classroom after recess, difficulty sitting next to Susie during circle time, difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math, difficulty agreeing with Billy on the rules of the four square game at recess, difficulty coming to school, difficulty coming to school on time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I could go on forever. Those are not typically the things people are talking about when they’re talking about a kid who’s struggling. They’re often talking about the kid’s concerning behavior and what they’re doing to try to modify it, and maybe even the diagnosis that captures those behaviors. We would be so much better off if we have an instrument that helps us identify their unsolved problems, and we do in the collaborative and proactive solutions model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And if we were engaging students in the process of solving those problems, meaning collaboratively, and since we’re now out in front of those problems, having now finally identified them, the problem should also be proactive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I think there’s something huge in what you’re talking about solutions-wise in the word collaborative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re talking about including the student as well in how to move forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That is so what I’m talking about. But I think a lot of adults, um, both in education, in education but also everywhere else, think it’s their job to divine what’s getting in the kid’s way and to divine what the solutions should be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> This is not that. Kids can be relied upon to help us understand what’s making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. I’m often asked the question, “What makes you think the kid knows?” And my answer is, “i35 years of asking.” Kids can also be relied upon to, um, come up with solutions t- about what’s getting in the way of them meeting certain expectations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So this model is moving us away from being completely adult-driven. The adult is the facilitator of a process in which kid and adult are working toward solutions together. That is very different from what typically goes on now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I had to kind of work a little extra on to better understand is your concepts of collaborative and proactive solutions, because I realize a lot of why we continue to do what we’re doing, right, looking for behaviors, uh, trying to work in a behavior-focused model, I think a lot of why we operate that way is, is rooted in our communication, you know, how we communicate with young people, which is not necessarily open-ended, you know, which is thinking more about why have you not done this thing that I asked you to do already with the consequences in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, so can you give us some examples of how people can communicate to get to that state of collaboration versus maybe how we typically communicate now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, very interesting question. You know, solving a problem collaboratively starts with identifying the problem that you want to solve with the kid, and although that sounds like sort of a given, it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Mostly because we’re so focused on behavior that we often haven’t even identified the expectations a student is having difficulty reliably meeting. So we’ve gotta start with that, and the instrument that I was talking about is called the Assessment of Skills and Unsolved Problems, and it helps us memorialize every single expectation a particular student is having difficulty reliably meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And we are now, for having done that, out in front of it, which means we don’t have to wait for the frustration response to occur before we intervene. So much of intervention, so much of what we’re training educators to do, so much of what we’re teaching kids is what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated, and that’s late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That’s crisis management. That’s not out in front of it. That’s waiting for the behavior to occur. Boy, does the game change when we proactively identify unsolved problems- That positions us to solve them proactively. Um, I’m always telling educators, being late is not a given. With some intentionality, with some commitment, with some imagination, we could be early instead of late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So identifying unsolved problems is where the whole thing begins. It then continues with prioritizing the unsolved problems you’ve identified, because you’re not gonna be able to solve everything at once. Often we encourage educators to prioritize unsolved problems that are causing safety issues, because safety is a big deal in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then it’s time to start solving a problem collaboratively and proactively with a student. Um, what might that sound like? “I’ve noticed you’ve been having difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. What’s up?” The caregiver just got the conversation going. The caregiver is now facilitating a problem-solving process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> The caregiver is not thinking about consequences, because the caregiver should know that consequences don’t solve any problems. Now we’re looking to the kid to help us understand what’s making it hard. Now, sometimes kids say something that feel like a showstopper, like, “I hate it.” But one of the other things the collaborative and proactive solutions model provides is how to drill for more information, how to probe, and the drilling strategy, there are eight of them that I would use in that circumstances, is simple reflective listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> “You hate it. Tell me more about that.” “It’s stupid.” Sounds like another showstopper, but it’s not. “It’s stupid.” Um, “I’m sorry, I’m still not exactly sure what you mean. What do you mean when you say it’s stupid?” “It’s stupid how you make me do math I don’t know how to do.” Are we starting to get some traction here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We are. Do we need to continue probing? We do, because we don’t yet know what’s making it hard for the kid to complete the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. But we do have a kid who’s now talking, and that is a wonderful thing. Um, eventually, and I’m thinking of a particular kid here, we learned that, uh, when the double-digit division problems in math were presented in words, as in word problems, they got completely stumped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But when they could do it through, um, just doing out a division problem, they could do it just fine. Good. Now we know. That’s the first step of solving a problem collaboratively, curiosity, finding out what’s been getting in the kid’s way. The second step is the adult’s step. It’s their turn to say why they, um, think it’s important that the expectation Be met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then in the third step, adult and kid are collaborating on a solution that’s going to address the concerns of both parties. Solved problems don’t cause frustration responses, only unsolved problems do. So when educators first hear about this process, and all I’ve given you is the basic outlines, the first thing they think about, and I completely understand why, is time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They ask, “When does he think we’re going to do this?” But I could make a very persuasive argument for the fact that the reason we have no time is because we haven’t been doing this. We’ve been chasing after behavior day after day, same kids. It saves a lot of time to finally identify and solve the problems we’ve been chasing after all this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Who was it that said, uh, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember who it was, but they had a good point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I ask, in that instance with the math problem, what is the unproductive way to respond that you may have seen or heard about in classrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Oh, thinking that the student’s failure to do the math is due to poor motivation, and then thinking that what this student really needs is more motivation. And that could go in a few different directions. It could sound like this: “Uh, Billy, if you do not get that math done before recess, you are not going out for recess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Could be in the form of reward, “Billy, if you get that math done, you get XYZ reward.” Very common. Um, we still have no idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the math. We’ve lost sight of the fact that we are not the first people who’ve tried to incentivize Billy to do things that are hard for him. Um, we’ve also lost sight of the fact that this is not the first time Billy’s had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> It’s the 197th, which makes this an old unsolved problem. Um, if we punish Billy for something, for a problem that he is currently unable to overcome on his own, we heighten the likelihood that Billy will exhibit a frustration response. If we dangle a reward in front of Billy, and Billy is unable to achieve that award because Billy is not yet over, uh, uh, able to overcome that problem- We still run the risk of a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen just as many frustration responses when a kid didn’t get an anticipated reward as I have in response to punishment. But the whole thing here is we still don’t have the slightest idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. And until we do, Billy’s still gonna struggle with that unsolved problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s really fascinating to hear you describe the latter because that is far more common experience from my point of view than anyone having sat down and spent time identifying an unsolved problem. I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Even when people sit down with the kid and talk to the kid, what they’re often talking with the kid about is their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, so you ran out of Mrs. Johnson’s classroom. Why’d you do that? And the answer that we most frequently get when people try to talk with kids about their frustration responses is, “I don’t know,” or the most primitive of defense mechanisms, “No, I didn’t.” Those conversations, generally speaking, go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Conversations we have about helping kids understand what’s making it hard for them to meet an expectation, actually they’re the ones who are helping us understand, and working toward a solution that finally gets the problem solved so the frustration responses subside, that’s a beautiful thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So as you said, “I don’t know,” or, you know, other things kids say like, “I don’t care,” I imagine adults also have a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Does this help get at the root of how adults respond as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, a lot of maladaptive adult frustration responses occur in the heat of the moment as well. Our goal is to get out of the heat of the moment. The heat of the moment, I can’t say this enough times, isn’t a given. I know the students are difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I get it. I know that there’s too many of them in a classroom. I get that too. But this would all be a whole lot easier, and it would be much better practice for both educators and kids if we were focused on the right thing. Now, that’s the heat of the moment part of educator frustration these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of reasons that educators should be frustrated these days. Um, I think we’ve made it a lot harder to be an educator over the last two to three decades, and yes, high-stakes testing, I’m staring at you, but that is not the only thing that has made it harder to be an educator. I’ve had many educators say to me, “They’ve taken all the humanity out of my job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They’ve turned me into a test prep robot.” Um, zero tolerance policies, um, made it more difficult for me to find out what’s really going on with a kid because zero tolerance policies just tightened the vice grip and gave us an algorithm for applying consequences to certain behaviors. Um, we’ve made a lot of things harder on educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Let there be no doubt they aren’t paid anywhere nearly enough. Um, they don’t have time. So there’s a baseline level of frustration for a lot of educators these days. They often don’t feel safe in their classrooms. Um, I find that when we implement this model, it’s not just the frustration of kids that subside, it’s the frustration of educators as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Although I will say this: there’s nothing about this model that will help educators get paid what they deserve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that is the, a huge goal for so many people in order to better serve students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be back with our guest Ross Greene, right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So, you know, I’ve heard a lot of educators say, “Meet them where they’re at,” or, you know, a version of this is, “Teach the kid you have.” Um, but that’s not happening at a wide scale. Um, is it really hard to implement? Is it, uh, like what is it about schools that make it challenging to get to that point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> You know, one of the other big focal points of the book is, um, the concept of developmental variability, which I don’t hear people talking about enough, especially in schools, but anywhere really. Um, developmental variability basically says what’s walking in the door is a bunch of individual differences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Developmental variability is just a fanciv- fancy way of saying every kid is different, and let there be no doubt that is what’s walking in every classroom. We’ve done kids and educators a tremendous disservice by saying, “Even with all that developmental variability, you gotta get every kid over the same line by the end of the school year.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> How ludicrous, and educators told us that was ludicrous 30 years ago, and it’s just as ludicrous now. One of the points I make in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point. Teachers should feel free to have every kid be their own reference point for progress. That tells you that there is no line that everybody has to get over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s no line. There’s just making sure that every student makes as much progress relative to where they started at the beginning in every school year, and we need to free teachers up to be able to do that. Um, that’s what differentiated instruction is about. That’s what personalized learning is about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, those things frequently don’t embed themselves into our practice. Every kid is their own reference point. The goal of good teaching is defined as meeting every kid where they’re at. Um, we need to free teachers up to be able to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing that I thought was really interesting about your book is, I, I think this is interesting because teachers are asked to do so much, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> They are, in many cases, social workers. Sometimes they’re stand-ins for parents. They’re just doing more and more all the time, and what you write is that you don’t want teachers to be diagnosing, to look at behavior and diagnose behavior. Um, can you tell me why that is? And, and I ask because there is so much emphasis on the behavior side of interacting with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So why, why do you want teachers to, you know, not act in that way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, because diagnoses don’t really tell you very much. Um, not very much that you don’t already know. Diagnoses are sometimes the gateway for a kid to get services. Diagnosis can sometimes be the gateway for a kid to get funding for those services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’m a mental health professional, and I don’t find that diagnoses give me much useful information about a kid. Um, what gives me the useful information? What skills this kid is struggling with and what expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting, and I get that information from the assessment of skills and unsolved problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Here’s a, um, I was speaking at a, uh, autism conference in Denmark pre-COVID, and a mother in my audience raised her hand very tentatively and said, “Yeah, but I found my daughter’s autism diagnosis to be very useful.” I said, “That’s good.” Then she thought about it for a second, and she said, “But I think what you’re saying-” “Is that my daughter’s autism diagnosis really doesn’t tell me anything about her specific skills or the specific expectations she’s having difficulty meeting.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I said, “Right.” She thought about it a little bit more, and then she said, “And I think what you’re saying is that once I identify my daughter’s skills and unsolved problems, I’m going to find that I have information that is far more useful than her psychiatric diagnosis.” I said, “Probably.” Um, focusing on diagnoses focuses on, makes us focus on behavior, because if we look at the diagnostic criteria for the vast majority of childhood psychiatric disorders, what we’re going to find is a long list of behaviors, frustration responses, distress responses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So long as we’re focused on the behavior, we’re gonna be late every time, because behavior occurs after a kid is already having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. We’ve been waiting for behavior to occur. We need to start anticipating, identifying, and solving problems instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene is the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He’s also the author of other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School, and is the founding director of Lives in the Balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ki Sung talks with clinical psychologist and author Ross Greene about why traditional discipline strategies often fail students, and what educators can do instead. Greene explains his \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions\u003c/a> model, which shifts the focus away from rewards and punishments and toward identifying the unmet needs and unsolved problems behind student behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"http://www.youtube.com/embed/4qsGTXLnmKs\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. There’s been no shortage of stories about what’s troubling kids today, the outbursts, the apathy, the mental health concerns. We’re seeing some signs of progress through solutions like limiting screen time and having more in real-life social interactions, but there are still students who need help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-66349\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"265\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg 265w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg-160x242.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 265px) 100vw, 265px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene developed the \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model\u003c/a> to help all students, and it requires a different way of responding to students’ behavior. He’s the author of the recently published book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> He’s also the bestselling author of several other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome, Dr. Greene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for being here. Let’s talk first about what you describe as concerning behavior, the stuff that gets kids sent to the principal’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You say concerning behavior is how kids communicate that they’re having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. Can you tell us more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I do say that all the time, and I wish everybody knew that. We’ve, we’ve all become accustomed to the cliche “All behavior is communication.” Somehow, it doesn’t translate for a lot of people that concerning behavior communicates that a kid is frustrated or distressed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Concerning behavior is a frustration or distress response, and almost always, what the student is frustrated or distressed about is an expectation that they’re having difficulty meeting. Um, if all we pay attention to is the behavior, then we’re gonna be kinda narrow in what we can do, or… ’cause when you’re focused on behavior, all you can really do is try to modify it, and that’s usually accomplished through some mix of rewards and punishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But rewards and punishments, what a lot of people refer to as consequences, aren’t problem-solving strategies. So we have a lot of students who have experienced a lot of consequences and who are still doing poorly because the problems that are causing the behaviors that we’ve been busy consequencing often haven’t even been identified, let alone solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, it’s kinda wild to hear you say that because I hear a lot of focus on the behavior. So what are you proposing we do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I am proposing that we de-emphasize our focus on behavior, and by the way, our focus on behavior Is all around us. We are, um… When we have a kid who’s struggling and communicating that they’re struggling through their behavior, we do behavior checklists, we do behavior observations, we do a functional behavior assessment all so that we can come up with a behavior plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> When a student is struggling in a classroom and communicate that through their concerning behavior, they get a discipline referral, and what the, the information that is mostly passed along to the people who are on the receiving end of those discipline referrals is the kid’s concerning behavior. And what they often do about it is give the kid consequences for their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We need to instead, um, focus on the problems that are causing that behavior. I call them unsolved problems. The synonym for unsolved problem is unmet expectation. This includes things like stuff classroom teachers deal with every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, difficulty coming back into the classroom after recess, difficulty sitting next to Susie during circle time, difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math, difficulty agreeing with Billy on the rules of the four square game at recess, difficulty coming to school, difficulty coming to school on time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I could go on forever. Those are not typically the things people are talking about when they’re talking about a kid who’s struggling. They’re often talking about the kid’s concerning behavior and what they’re doing to try to modify it, and maybe even the diagnosis that captures those behaviors. We would be so much better off if we have an instrument that helps us identify their unsolved problems, and we do in the collaborative and proactive solutions model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And if we were engaging students in the process of solving those problems, meaning collaboratively, and since we’re now out in front of those problems, having now finally identified them, the problem should also be proactive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I think there’s something huge in what you’re talking about solutions-wise in the word collaborative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re talking about including the student as well in how to move forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That is so what I’m talking about. But I think a lot of adults, um, both in education, in education but also everywhere else, think it’s their job to divine what’s getting in the kid’s way and to divine what the solutions should be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> This is not that. Kids can be relied upon to help us understand what’s making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. I’m often asked the question, “What makes you think the kid knows?” And my answer is, “i35 years of asking.” Kids can also be relied upon to, um, come up with solutions t- about what’s getting in the way of them meeting certain expectations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So this model is moving us away from being completely adult-driven. The adult is the facilitator of a process in which kid and adult are working toward solutions together. That is very different from what typically goes on now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I had to kind of work a little extra on to better understand is your concepts of collaborative and proactive solutions, because I realize a lot of why we continue to do what we’re doing, right, looking for behaviors, uh, trying to work in a behavior-focused model, I think a lot of why we operate that way is, is rooted in our communication, you know, how we communicate with young people, which is not necessarily open-ended, you know, which is thinking more about why have you not done this thing that I asked you to do already with the consequences in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, so can you give us some examples of how people can communicate to get to that state of collaboration versus maybe how we typically communicate now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, very interesting question. You know, solving a problem collaboratively starts with identifying the problem that you want to solve with the kid, and although that sounds like sort of a given, it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Mostly because we’re so focused on behavior that we often haven’t even identified the expectations a student is having difficulty reliably meeting. So we’ve gotta start with that, and the instrument that I was talking about is called the Assessment of Skills and Unsolved Problems, and it helps us memorialize every single expectation a particular student is having difficulty reliably meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And we are now, for having done that, out in front of it, which means we don’t have to wait for the frustration response to occur before we intervene. So much of intervention, so much of what we’re training educators to do, so much of what we’re teaching kids is what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated, and that’s late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That’s crisis management. That’s not out in front of it. That’s waiting for the behavior to occur. Boy, does the game change when we proactively identify unsolved problems- That positions us to solve them proactively. Um, I’m always telling educators, being late is not a given. With some intentionality, with some commitment, with some imagination, we could be early instead of late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So identifying unsolved problems is where the whole thing begins. It then continues with prioritizing the unsolved problems you’ve identified, because you’re not gonna be able to solve everything at once. Often we encourage educators to prioritize unsolved problems that are causing safety issues, because safety is a big deal in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then it’s time to start solving a problem collaboratively and proactively with a student. Um, what might that sound like? “I’ve noticed you’ve been having difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. What’s up?” The caregiver just got the conversation going. The caregiver is now facilitating a problem-solving process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> The caregiver is not thinking about consequences, because the caregiver should know that consequences don’t solve any problems. Now we’re looking to the kid to help us understand what’s making it hard. Now, sometimes kids say something that feel like a showstopper, like, “I hate it.” But one of the other things the collaborative and proactive solutions model provides is how to drill for more information, how to probe, and the drilling strategy, there are eight of them that I would use in that circumstances, is simple reflective listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> “You hate it. Tell me more about that.” “It’s stupid.” Sounds like another showstopper, but it’s not. “It’s stupid.” Um, “I’m sorry, I’m still not exactly sure what you mean. What do you mean when you say it’s stupid?” “It’s stupid how you make me do math I don’t know how to do.” Are we starting to get some traction here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We are. Do we need to continue probing? We do, because we don’t yet know what’s making it hard for the kid to complete the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. But we do have a kid who’s now talking, and that is a wonderful thing. Um, eventually, and I’m thinking of a particular kid here, we learned that, uh, when the double-digit division problems in math were presented in words, as in word problems, they got completely stumped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But when they could do it through, um, just doing out a division problem, they could do it just fine. Good. Now we know. That’s the first step of solving a problem collaboratively, curiosity, finding out what’s been getting in the kid’s way. The second step is the adult’s step. It’s their turn to say why they, um, think it’s important that the expectation Be met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then in the third step, adult and kid are collaborating on a solution that’s going to address the concerns of both parties. Solved problems don’t cause frustration responses, only unsolved problems do. So when educators first hear about this process, and all I’ve given you is the basic outlines, the first thing they think about, and I completely understand why, is time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They ask, “When does he think we’re going to do this?” But I could make a very persuasive argument for the fact that the reason we have no time is because we haven’t been doing this. We’ve been chasing after behavior day after day, same kids. It saves a lot of time to finally identify and solve the problems we’ve been chasing after all this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Who was it that said, uh, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember who it was, but they had a good point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I ask, in that instance with the math problem, what is the unproductive way to respond that you may have seen or heard about in classrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Oh, thinking that the student’s failure to do the math is due to poor motivation, and then thinking that what this student really needs is more motivation. And that could go in a few different directions. It could sound like this: “Uh, Billy, if you do not get that math done before recess, you are not going out for recess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Could be in the form of reward, “Billy, if you get that math done, you get XYZ reward.” Very common. Um, we still have no idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the math. We’ve lost sight of the fact that we are not the first people who’ve tried to incentivize Billy to do things that are hard for him. Um, we’ve also lost sight of the fact that this is not the first time Billy’s had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> It’s the 197th, which makes this an old unsolved problem. Um, if we punish Billy for something, for a problem that he is currently unable to overcome on his own, we heighten the likelihood that Billy will exhibit a frustration response. If we dangle a reward in front of Billy, and Billy is unable to achieve that award because Billy is not yet over, uh, uh, able to overcome that problem- We still run the risk of a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen just as many frustration responses when a kid didn’t get an anticipated reward as I have in response to punishment. But the whole thing here is we still don’t have the slightest idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. And until we do, Billy’s still gonna struggle with that unsolved problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s really fascinating to hear you describe the latter because that is far more common experience from my point of view than anyone having sat down and spent time identifying an unsolved problem. I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Even when people sit down with the kid and talk to the kid, what they’re often talking with the kid about is their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, so you ran out of Mrs. Johnson’s classroom. Why’d you do that? And the answer that we most frequently get when people try to talk with kids about their frustration responses is, “I don’t know,” or the most primitive of defense mechanisms, “No, I didn’t.” Those conversations, generally speaking, go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Conversations we have about helping kids understand what’s making it hard for them to meet an expectation, actually they’re the ones who are helping us understand, and working toward a solution that finally gets the problem solved so the frustration responses subside, that’s a beautiful thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So as you said, “I don’t know,” or, you know, other things kids say like, “I don’t care,” I imagine adults also have a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Does this help get at the root of how adults respond as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, a lot of maladaptive adult frustration responses occur in the heat of the moment as well. Our goal is to get out of the heat of the moment. The heat of the moment, I can’t say this enough times, isn’t a given. I know the students are difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I get it. I know that there’s too many of them in a classroom. I get that too. But this would all be a whole lot easier, and it would be much better practice for both educators and kids if we were focused on the right thing. Now, that’s the heat of the moment part of educator frustration these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of reasons that educators should be frustrated these days. Um, I think we’ve made it a lot harder to be an educator over the last two to three decades, and yes, high-stakes testing, I’m staring at you, but that is not the only thing that has made it harder to be an educator. I’ve had many educators say to me, “They’ve taken all the humanity out of my job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They’ve turned me into a test prep robot.” Um, zero tolerance policies, um, made it more difficult for me to find out what’s really going on with a kid because zero tolerance policies just tightened the vice grip and gave us an algorithm for applying consequences to certain behaviors. Um, we’ve made a lot of things harder on educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Let there be no doubt they aren’t paid anywhere nearly enough. Um, they don’t have time. So there’s a baseline level of frustration for a lot of educators these days. They often don’t feel safe in their classrooms. Um, I find that when we implement this model, it’s not just the frustration of kids that subside, it’s the frustration of educators as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Although I will say this: there’s nothing about this model that will help educators get paid what they deserve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that is the, a huge goal for so many people in order to better serve students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be back with our guest Ross Greene, right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So, you know, I’ve heard a lot of educators say, “Meet them where they’re at,” or, you know, a version of this is, “Teach the kid you have.” Um, but that’s not happening at a wide scale. Um, is it really hard to implement? Is it, uh, like what is it about schools that make it challenging to get to that point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> You know, one of the other big focal points of the book is, um, the concept of developmental variability, which I don’t hear people talking about enough, especially in schools, but anywhere really. Um, developmental variability basically says what’s walking in the door is a bunch of individual differences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Developmental variability is just a fanciv- fancy way of saying every kid is different, and let there be no doubt that is what’s walking in every classroom. We’ve done kids and educators a tremendous disservice by saying, “Even with all that developmental variability, you gotta get every kid over the same line by the end of the school year.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> How ludicrous, and educators told us that was ludicrous 30 years ago, and it’s just as ludicrous now. One of the points I make in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point. Teachers should feel free to have every kid be their own reference point for progress. That tells you that there is no line that everybody has to get over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s no line. There’s just making sure that every student makes as much progress relative to where they started at the beginning in every school year, and we need to free teachers up to be able to do that. Um, that’s what differentiated instruction is about. That’s what personalized learning is about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, those things frequently don’t embed themselves into our practice. Every kid is their own reference point. The goal of good teaching is defined as meeting every kid where they’re at. Um, we need to free teachers up to be able to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing that I thought was really interesting about your book is, I, I think this is interesting because teachers are asked to do so much, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> They are, in many cases, social workers. Sometimes they’re stand-ins for parents. They’re just doing more and more all the time, and what you write is that you don’t want teachers to be diagnosing, to look at behavior and diagnose behavior. Um, can you tell me why that is? And, and I ask because there is so much emphasis on the behavior side of interacting with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So why, why do you want teachers to, you know, not act in that way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, because diagnoses don’t really tell you very much. Um, not very much that you don’t already know. Diagnoses are sometimes the gateway for a kid to get services. Diagnosis can sometimes be the gateway for a kid to get funding for those services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’m a mental health professional, and I don’t find that diagnoses give me much useful information about a kid. Um, what gives me the useful information? What skills this kid is struggling with and what expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting, and I get that information from the assessment of skills and unsolved problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Here’s a, um, I was speaking at a, uh, autism conference in Denmark pre-COVID, and a mother in my audience raised her hand very tentatively and said, “Yeah, but I found my daughter’s autism diagnosis to be very useful.” I said, “That’s good.” Then she thought about it for a second, and she said, “But I think what you’re saying-” “Is that my daughter’s autism diagnosis really doesn’t tell me anything about her specific skills or the specific expectations she’s having difficulty meeting.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I said, “Right.” She thought about it a little bit more, and then she said, “And I think what you’re saying is that once I identify my daughter’s skills and unsolved problems, I’m going to find that I have information that is far more useful than her psychiatric diagnosis.” I said, “Probably.” Um, focusing on diagnoses focuses on, makes us focus on behavior, because if we look at the diagnostic criteria for the vast majority of childhood psychiatric disorders, what we’re going to find is a long list of behaviors, frustration responses, distress responses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So long as we’re focused on the behavior, we’re gonna be late every time, because behavior occurs after a kid is already having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. We’ve been waiting for behavior to occur. We need to start anticipating, identifying, and solving problems instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene is the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He’s also the author of other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School, and is the founding director of Lives in the Balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For 30 years, Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa has relied on AmeriCorps services to support their students that need extra help. But when federal funding was cut, and later reinstated, that programming stalled, leaving some students behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, principal Nina Craig explains how the loss of tutors affected instruction and student relationships, while new AmeriCorps members, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli, describe stepping into classrooms with limited time and resources. We learn how even a few missed months of literacy support reduces how many students can be served.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1557384124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Marlena Jackson Rotondo. It’s almost Winter break at Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa, California, and tutoring sessions for the school year have just begun. The schools to AmeriCorps tutors have gone through a crash course of training to prepare for the reading and writing support they’ll provide for the rest of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>AmeriCorps is an independent government agency whose volunteer members provide educational support and services to schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>On this morning, a small group of fourth graders reluctantly file into the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>They’ve been pulled out of their classroom to spend 30 minutes with the tutors, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maya has the students get straight to work reading a story out loud from a workbook In unison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna start with our choral style of reading today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Ready? Go!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>All reading:\u003c/strong> My mother says to me, I choose a pretty paper fan with a picture of leaves and fireflies. I will keep my fan forever. When I grow up I will look at it and remember this night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The tutors stop the students every couple of sentences to ask about vocabulary in the text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So what happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> What unexpectedly happened? The wet… they were warned about the weather. They thought the waves were only gonna get to how tall? Do you remember from the first page? Student: mmmm….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The students seem timid, and when they do speak up, it’s very quiet. And sometimes the students don’t answer the questions at all, but Maya and Elena, unfazed by the silence, move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is normal student behavior for the first week of tutoring at Bellevue Elementary, but what isn’t normal is that the first week of tutoring has been delayed this year by more than two months. Tutoring was supposed to start in early fall. Last April, all AmeriCorps funding was terminated by the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> This ended an almost three decade long collaboration between Bellevue Elementary and AmeriCorps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cuts happened immediately and without explanation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> It was shocking how quickly it happened. Um, uh, literally felt like overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> so it kind of felt like the rug was pulled out from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s Nina Craig Bellevue, elementary’s principal of 10 years. Before that, she was a fifth grade teacher and she recalls working with AmeriCorps members then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> As a classroom teacher I remember them coming into my room and working with some of my students and having that partnership as a teacher\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And because the AmeriCorps members were such an integral part of the school community, the cuts were difficult for Bellevue students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> The relationship with the kids that was established and for the kids to all of a sudden have these people gone that are such a vital part of our school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> was really sad and really hard to explain, because they really do become a part of our school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> Through lawsuits. AmeriCorps funding cuts were reversed in June of last year, but by that time, schools like Bellevue Elementary were already behind for the next school year’s cycle of tutoring. Some schools across the district opted not to continue with tutoring and mentoring support from AmeriCorps members for the next school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is because they had to make decisions about their funding and without the certainty of AmeriCorps services, they had to go without. And because programming was delayed, Bellevue students didn’t start tutoring until December instead of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> there hasn’t been any tutoring offered for our third through sixth grade students until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> So without AmeriCorps, those students aren’t receiving any type of tutoring or intervention. And unless the teacher’s able to carve out time within their day to provide that,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> AmeriCorps members provide one of Bellevue elementary’s only forms of tier two support. That’s targeted support in a small group setting. In this case, it helps students who are struggling with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> In years past, we’ve had literacy paraprofessionals that could support our tier two. Um, however, with budget cuts, this is our first year without having them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> And so, um, we have one instructional aide. For the entire school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> But yeah, we’re very limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The two AmeriCorps tutors contribute greatly to Bellevue’s tier two manpower, but it’s still not enough. The school reduced the kindergarten day by one and a half hours so that kindergarten teachers could provide extra support for Bellevue’s first and second grade classrooms. On short notice, and with no wiggle room in their budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Bellevue Elementary had to make some hard choices. We’ll find out how they’re doing right after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>***Midroll Break***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I visited Bellevue Elementary back in December, I spoke with Fonzi, a fourth grader, receiving small group literacy tutoring for 30 minutes per day, four days per week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi: \u003c/strong>Dog Man and then I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fonzi’s telling me about the books he likes to read at home.,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What was that one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What’s that one about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> It’s um, there’s like different books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi:\u003c/strong> There’s, um, a Titanic book that, um, sunk in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So you read about different survival stories? Whoa, that’s pretty cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> He feels like there’s less reading time when he’s in his classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> The things that are different is, um, we don’t like read a lot of books,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But when he’s in his tutoring sessions, reading time, one of his favorite things to do, is extended\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> At AR time, we um, read, we read books for 15 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi is part of a small group of fourth grade students who have been identified as needing extra support with reading. During a normal year, there’s enough time for two groups of students to cycle through tutoring support from AmeriCorps members. But this year, since tutoring at Bellevue started late, AmeriCorps members only have time to help half of the students that they normally would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> At sites like Bellevue, the AmeriCorps tutors have become a staple in the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> There’s so many ways AmeriCorps impacts because of the tutoring, the recess playtime, the mentoring. It’s so much connection. You guys probably know more of the kids’ names than I do, um, at this point. And you just started\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And for Maya and Elena who are just starting their careers, the program offers them a glimpse into their professional future\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I know I want to do a job where I’m helping people and so I thought this was a great opportunity to, yeah, like, get some real life experience where I’m like serving others and I’m thinking of maybe doing something with social work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The opportunity to work with students in a school setting also offered Maya something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I’ve never worked with kids, and so I was kind of like, I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, I don’t know if I..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> …If I can do this, at first, you know, I was a little timid, but then you kind of just jump in and, um, you start connecting with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I spoke with the tutoring pair back in December, Elena was already feeling optimistic about her future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So far this job I feel extremely passionate about, which is, it’s just really nice waking up in the morning and I, I wake up early, like I wake up before my alarm clock ’cause I’m just excited to come to the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> A couple months later, Maya and Elena felt comfortable in their roles,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I just like know what I’m doing a little more. I kinda have a sense of like, we have a daily routine. I have really like good relationships with students now, so I’m like so excited to see them every day and they’re excited to see me and yeah, it’s great. It’s really good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And the AmeriCorps tutors have also noticed improvements in their students as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> One of my students in sixth grade, in one of his tests, he was and like the 26th percentile for reading in like November. And now he is like in the 42nd percentile and I’m like, whoa, that’s so like rewarding and exciting that he’s like doing so much better and able to do that on his own now, like do it more on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But the reality of having to work within the school’s limited resources has also sunk in for Maya.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Sometimes also it’s like really hard to see like how some students struggle so much in school or like, you know, and I can only do so much and help them so much in that 30 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> yeah, just doing the best you can every day with what you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> Cat was going to wait the cat, and then this could change to hundreds of bugs in one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> He called his keys and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I walked into the tutoring classroom in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> It felt like a transformed space with students who were relaxed and eager to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Elena had also noticed a difference in her students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> I feel like they’re a lot more confident in answering questions and what to write down. So I feel like that’s. That’s like the biggest difference I’ve seen is like their confidence in what they’re writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> So the door, what’s the door? Who does he know? What’s the door? It’s D, the OOR. Yeah. I thought it was E-D-O-O-O-R-H. What? All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi has also gained confidence in his reading abilities since December. He told me he’s reading three to four books a day and even tackling some chapter books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> When I first came in and reading groups, um, we started reading books and stuff and I kind of got into it and I started reading books every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The benefits of extra reading support provided by the AmeriCorps tutors at school has extended into Fonzie’s home life as well. He and his siblings made up a reading game that they like to play at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> We guess, like, the book that they have. They don’t show the covers. And we, guess, and then if we get it right, the people that have the book that the people say, they’re eliminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Even though there won’t be enough time to bring in another group of fourth graders for tutoring this school year, Elena and Maya look forward to the rest of their time with the students that they are able to help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Thank you to Bellevue Elementary’s faculty and staff who contributed their time to make this episode possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The MindShift team includes me, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Nimah Gobir, and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is head of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is KQED’s, editor-in-chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mindshift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED, some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio artists. San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Marlena Jackson Rotondo. It’s almost Winter break at Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa, California, and tutoring sessions for the school year have just begun. The schools to AmeriCorps tutors have gone through a crash course of training to prepare for the reading and writing support they’ll provide for the rest of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>AmeriCorps is an independent government agency whose volunteer members provide educational support and services to schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>On this morning, a small group of fourth graders reluctantly file into the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>They’ve been pulled out of their classroom to spend 30 minutes with the tutors, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maya has the students get straight to work reading a story out loud from a workbook In unison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna start with our choral style of reading today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Ready? Go!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>All reading:\u003c/strong> My mother says to me, I choose a pretty paper fan with a picture of leaves and fireflies. I will keep my fan forever. When I grow up I will look at it and remember this night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The tutors stop the students every couple of sentences to ask about vocabulary in the text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So what happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> What unexpectedly happened? The wet… they were warned about the weather. They thought the waves were only gonna get to how tall? Do you remember from the first page? Student: mmmm….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The students seem timid, and when they do speak up, it’s very quiet. And sometimes the students don’t answer the questions at all, but Maya and Elena, unfazed by the silence, move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is normal student behavior for the first week of tutoring at Bellevue Elementary, but what isn’t normal is that the first week of tutoring has been delayed this year by more than two months. Tutoring was supposed to start in early fall. Last April, all AmeriCorps funding was terminated by the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> This ended an almost three decade long collaboration between Bellevue Elementary and AmeriCorps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cuts happened immediately and without explanation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> It was shocking how quickly it happened. Um, uh, literally felt like overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> so it kind of felt like the rug was pulled out from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s Nina Craig Bellevue, elementary’s principal of 10 years. Before that, she was a fifth grade teacher and she recalls working with AmeriCorps members then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> As a classroom teacher I remember them coming into my room and working with some of my students and having that partnership as a teacher\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And because the AmeriCorps members were such an integral part of the school community, the cuts were difficult for Bellevue students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> The relationship with the kids that was established and for the kids to all of a sudden have these people gone that are such a vital part of our school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> was really sad and really hard to explain, because they really do become a part of our school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> Through lawsuits. AmeriCorps funding cuts were reversed in June of last year, but by that time, schools like Bellevue Elementary were already behind for the next school year’s cycle of tutoring. Some schools across the district opted not to continue with tutoring and mentoring support from AmeriCorps members for the next school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is because they had to make decisions about their funding and without the certainty of AmeriCorps services, they had to go without. And because programming was delayed, Bellevue students didn’t start tutoring until December instead of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> there hasn’t been any tutoring offered for our third through sixth grade students until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> So without AmeriCorps, those students aren’t receiving any type of tutoring or intervention. And unless the teacher’s able to carve out time within their day to provide that,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> AmeriCorps members provide one of Bellevue elementary’s only forms of tier two support. That’s targeted support in a small group setting. In this case, it helps students who are struggling with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> In years past, we’ve had literacy paraprofessionals that could support our tier two. Um, however, with budget cuts, this is our first year without having them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> And so, um, we have one instructional aide. For the entire school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> But yeah, we’re very limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The two AmeriCorps tutors contribute greatly to Bellevue’s tier two manpower, but it’s still not enough. The school reduced the kindergarten day by one and a half hours so that kindergarten teachers could provide extra support for Bellevue’s first and second grade classrooms. On short notice, and with no wiggle room in their budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Bellevue Elementary had to make some hard choices. We’ll find out how they’re doing right after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>***Midroll Break***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I visited Bellevue Elementary back in December, I spoke with Fonzi, a fourth grader, receiving small group literacy tutoring for 30 minutes per day, four days per week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi: \u003c/strong>Dog Man and then I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fonzi’s telling me about the books he likes to read at home.,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What was that one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What’s that one about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> It’s um, there’s like different books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi:\u003c/strong> There’s, um, a Titanic book that, um, sunk in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So you read about different survival stories? Whoa, that’s pretty cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> He feels like there’s less reading time when he’s in his classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> The things that are different is, um, we don’t like read a lot of books,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But when he’s in his tutoring sessions, reading time, one of his favorite things to do, is extended\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> At AR time, we um, read, we read books for 15 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi is part of a small group of fourth grade students who have been identified as needing extra support with reading. During a normal year, there’s enough time for two groups of students to cycle through tutoring support from AmeriCorps members. But this year, since tutoring at Bellevue started late, AmeriCorps members only have time to help half of the students that they normally would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> At sites like Bellevue, the AmeriCorps tutors have become a staple in the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> There’s so many ways AmeriCorps impacts because of the tutoring, the recess playtime, the mentoring. It’s so much connection. You guys probably know more of the kids’ names than I do, um, at this point. And you just started\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And for Maya and Elena who are just starting their careers, the program offers them a glimpse into their professional future\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I know I want to do a job where I’m helping people and so I thought this was a great opportunity to, yeah, like, get some real life experience where I’m like serving others and I’m thinking of maybe doing something with social work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The opportunity to work with students in a school setting also offered Maya something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I’ve never worked with kids, and so I was kind of like, I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, I don’t know if I..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> …If I can do this, at first, you know, I was a little timid, but then you kind of just jump in and, um, you start connecting with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I spoke with the tutoring pair back in December, Elena was already feeling optimistic about her future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So far this job I feel extremely passionate about, which is, it’s just really nice waking up in the morning and I, I wake up early, like I wake up before my alarm clock ’cause I’m just excited to come to the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> A couple months later, Maya and Elena felt comfortable in their roles,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I just like know what I’m doing a little more. I kinda have a sense of like, we have a daily routine. I have really like good relationships with students now, so I’m like so excited to see them every day and they’re excited to see me and yeah, it’s great. It’s really good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And the AmeriCorps tutors have also noticed improvements in their students as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> One of my students in sixth grade, in one of his tests, he was and like the 26th percentile for reading in like November. And now he is like in the 42nd percentile and I’m like, whoa, that’s so like rewarding and exciting that he’s like doing so much better and able to do that on his own now, like do it more on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But the reality of having to work within the school’s limited resources has also sunk in for Maya.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Sometimes also it’s like really hard to see like how some students struggle so much in school or like, you know, and I can only do so much and help them so much in that 30 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> yeah, just doing the best you can every day with what you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> Cat was going to wait the cat, and then this could change to hundreds of bugs in one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> He called his keys and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I walked into the tutoring classroom in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> It felt like a transformed space with students who were relaxed and eager to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Elena had also noticed a difference in her students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> I feel like they’re a lot more confident in answering questions and what to write down. So I feel like that’s. That’s like the biggest difference I’ve seen is like their confidence in what they’re writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> So the door, what’s the door? Who does he know? What’s the door? It’s D, the OOR. Yeah. I thought it was E-D-O-O-O-R-H. What? All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi has also gained confidence in his reading abilities since December. He told me he’s reading three to four books a day and even tackling some chapter books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> When I first came in and reading groups, um, we started reading books and stuff and I kind of got into it and I started reading books every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The benefits of extra reading support provided by the AmeriCorps tutors at school has extended into Fonzie’s home life as well. He and his siblings made up a reading game that they like to play at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> We guess, like, the book that they have. They don’t show the covers. And we, guess, and then if we get it right, the people that have the book that the people say, they’re eliminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Even though there won’t be enough time to bring in another group of fourth graders for tutoring this school year, Elena and Maya look forward to the rest of their time with the students that they are able to help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Thank you to Bellevue Elementary’s faculty and staff who contributed their time to make this episode possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The MindShift team includes me, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Nimah Gobir, and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is head of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is KQED’s, editor-in-chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mindshift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED, some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio artists. San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Randy Porter has been teaching music in the Oakland Unified School District for 40 years, but he never set out to become a music teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he was younger, he had his sights set on a professional music career as a guitarist. Then in the 1980s, he landed a long-term substitute teaching role in two very different schools within the same district: Hillcrest, which is in an affluent neighborhood in the Oakland Hills, and Whittier in East Oakland, which was an epicenter of the crack cocaine epidemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The stark disparity between the two schools challenged Porter’s perception of his own impact on the students who weren’t receiving the education they deserved. So, he decided to continue on with his teaching career and eventually landed permanent teaching positions throughout the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66246\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66246\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of students\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Randy Porter and a group of students at Cazadero Music Camp from in 2019 hangs on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These days at Roosevelt Middle School, his classroom stands out. When most middle schoolers are learning the classics, Porter’s students dive deep into the world of jazz, even going so far as to play avant-garde compositions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re the only middle school band in the Local Supercluster, as far as I know, certainly in the Milky Way galaxy, that specializes in the music of Sun Ra,” said Porter. Sun Ra was an American jazz composer and band leader, known for his experimental music style and cosmic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Porter truly believes in the musical ability of kids of all ages. When he was Berkeley Symphony’s director of music education, he would have the orchestra perform pieces composed by 5-year-olds. And in years past, he’s created opportunities for his elementary and middle school students to record their own albums – something that he’s doing for his current middle school students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66244\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66244\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of newspaper clipping on a wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">News clippings of Randy Porter from 1994 hang on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Porter’s the type of teacher who provides a safe space for his students to practice, hang out and have a snack after school. But this is Mr. Porter’s last year teaching because he is retiring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this juncture, the future of music classes in Oakland public schools is uncertain because of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064579/oaklands-school-district-must-cut-100-million-its-proposed-plan-doesnt-get-close\">looming budget cuts\u003c/a> across the district. Porter does not want arts education to fall to the wayside so he started a \u003ca href=\"https://ebayc.liveimpact.org/fundraiser/li/7632/D/200582\">fundraiser for Roosevelt’s music program\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66247\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66247\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holds repaired cello\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter sets up a cello that he repaired with Gorilla Glue in his classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[The arts] is an absolutely essential part of a kid’s development. Music, art, PE, manipulating things with your hands – this is how kids learn,” he said. “It’s how a lot of people learn. And when you take them away, a certain portion of the population gets a little bit left behind,” Porter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many benefits for students who study and play music. Research conducted by the University of Southern California’s Brain and Creativity Institute found that \u003ca href=\"https://today.usc.edu/childrens-brains-develop-faster-with-music-training/\">learning music enhances auditory pathways in the brain\u003c/a>, which could help with other learning systems affected by these neural pathways like reading and language. In 2022, policy caught up with science when California voters passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11934191/what-prop-28-funding-will-mean-for-arts-education-in-california\">Proposition 28\u003c/a>, requiring the state to provide additional funding for music and arts programs for public schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For students like seventh grader Diego, Porter’s band class wasn’t a natural choice when he entered middle school. “It was so weird,” Diego said of jazz music. “I was like, ‘will people actually wanna listen to this?’ I didn’t even want to play it at first.” But, he marched forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I hesitated and then I just stuck with it,” he said. “I like that there’s so many possibilities and different combinations so that you can make any different one.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of Porter’s seventh grade students, Imani, who plays guitar, became interested in playing Sun Ra’s music in band class. “All the parts are so different and they all come together into chaotic bliss,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66245\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66245\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Student holding guitar\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Imani plays the guitar in Randy Porter’s music class at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some of Porter’s former students have gone on to new heights, like 10th grade student Ryan, who comes back to Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt every Thursday to mentor middle schoolers. When Ryan arrived in Porter’s classroom about five years ago, he had experience playing violin and had picked up the cello. But Porter’s jazz-filled band class presented something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just felt exciting to be in the music class…that’s when I started to think, ‘wait, I need to switch to an instrument that’s more suitable for jazz,’” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, at the suggestion of Porter, Ryan picked up his third instrument – the trombone. “It really opened up a new world for me,” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, he plays a total of fifteen instruments, is a member of the SFJAZZ High School All-Stars Band, and has played in a youth orchestra for three years, all at the encouragement of Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Middle school students are in an age group that is notorious in schools and among teachers for their unpredictability, high energy, and increased social awareness. But if you can tap into their interests, the potential for growth is what Porter finds most exciting about this age group, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66248\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1998px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holding bass instrument\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter tests an upright bass before the start of classes at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He plans on being an active member of the local music education community in his retirement, but the students are what he’ll miss most. “I wanna be helpful. I wanna mentor teachers. I want to do what I can just to see things continue to be successful,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he’ll also take time to tap back into the professional music world. This summer you can find Porter playing at one of his annual \u003ca href=\"https://oakland.chapelofthechimes.com/about-us/news-and-events/event-detail/58006-oakland-annual-solstice-concert\">gigs\u003c/a>, Chapel of the Chimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6654357560\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Randy Porter has been teaching music in the Oakland Unified School District for 40 years, but he never set out to become a music teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he was younger, he had his sights set on a professional music career as a guitarist. Then in the 1980s, he landed a long-term substitute teaching role in two very different schools within the same district: Hillcrest, which is in an affluent neighborhood in the Oakland Hills, and Whittier in East Oakland, which was an epicenter of the crack cocaine epidemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The stark disparity between the two schools challenged Porter’s perception of his own impact on the students who weren’t receiving the education they deserved. So, he decided to continue on with his teaching career and eventually landed permanent teaching positions throughout the district.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66246\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66246\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of students\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-05_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Randy Porter and a group of students at Cazadero Music Camp from in 2019 hangs on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These days at Roosevelt Middle School, his classroom stands out. When most middle schoolers are learning the classics, Porter’s students dive deep into the world of jazz, even going so far as to play avant-garde compositions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re the only middle school band in the Local Supercluster, as far as I know, certainly in the Milky Way galaxy, that specializes in the music of Sun Ra,” said Porter. Sun Ra was an American jazz composer and band leader, known for his experimental music style and cosmic philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Porter truly believes in the musical ability of kids of all ages. When he was Berkeley Symphony’s director of music education, he would have the orchestra perform pieces composed by 5-year-olds. And in years past, he’s created opportunities for his elementary and middle school students to record their own albums – something that he’s doing for his current middle school students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66244\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66244\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Photo of newspaper clipping on a wall.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-02_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">News clippings of Randy Porter from 1994 hang on the wall in Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Porter’s the type of teacher who provides a safe space for his students to practice, hang out and have a snack after school. But this is Mr. Porter’s last year teaching because he is retiring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this juncture, the future of music classes in Oakland public schools is uncertain because of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064579/oaklands-school-district-must-cut-100-million-its-proposed-plan-doesnt-get-close\">looming budget cuts\u003c/a> across the district. Porter does not want arts education to fall to the wayside so he started a \u003ca href=\"https://ebayc.liveimpact.org/fundraiser/li/7632/D/200582\">fundraiser for Roosevelt’s music program\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66247\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66247\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holds repaired cello\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-04_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter sets up a cello that he repaired with Gorilla Glue in his classroom at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[The arts] is an absolutely essential part of a kid’s development. Music, art, PE, manipulating things with your hands – this is how kids learn,” he said. “It’s how a lot of people learn. And when you take them away, a certain portion of the population gets a little bit left behind,” Porter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many benefits for students who study and play music. Research conducted by the University of Southern California’s Brain and Creativity Institute found that \u003ca href=\"https://today.usc.edu/childrens-brains-develop-faster-with-music-training/\">learning music enhances auditory pathways in the brain\u003c/a>, which could help with other learning systems affected by these neural pathways like reading and language. In 2022, policy caught up with science when California voters passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11934191/what-prop-28-funding-will-mean-for-arts-education-in-california\">Proposition 28\u003c/a>, requiring the state to provide additional funding for music and arts programs for public schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For students like seventh grader Diego, Porter’s band class wasn’t a natural choice when he entered middle school. “It was so weird,” Diego said of jazz music. “I was like, ‘will people actually wanna listen to this?’ I didn’t even want to play it at first.” But, he marched forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I hesitated and then I just stuck with it,” he said. “I like that there’s so many possibilities and different combinations so that you can make any different one.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of Porter’s seventh grade students, Imani, who plays guitar, became interested in playing Sun Ra’s music in band class. “All the parts are so different and they all come together into chaotic bliss,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66245\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66245\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Student holding guitar\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-01_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Imani plays the guitar in Randy Porter’s music class at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some of Porter’s former students have gone on to new heights, like 10th grade student Ryan, who comes back to Porter’s classroom at Roosevelt every Thursday to mentor middle schoolers. When Ryan arrived in Porter’s classroom about five years ago, he had experience playing violin and had picked up the cello. But Porter’s jazz-filled band class presented something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just felt exciting to be in the music class…that’s when I started to think, ‘wait, I need to switch to an instrument that’s more suitable for jazz,’” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, at the suggestion of Porter, Ryan picked up his third instrument – the trombone. “It really opened up a new world for me,” said Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, he plays a total of fifteen instruments, is a member of the SFJAZZ High School All-Stars Band, and has played in a youth orchestra for three years, all at the encouragement of Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Middle school students are in an age group that is notorious in schools and among teachers for their unpredictability, high energy, and increased social awareness. But if you can tap into their interests, the potential for growth is what Porter finds most exciting about this age group, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66248\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1998px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"Man holding bass instrument\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/04/260313-RANDY-PORTER-RETIRES-MD-03_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Randy Porter tests an upright bass before the start of classes at Roosevelt Middle School in Oakland on March 14, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He plans on being an active member of the local music education community in his retirement, but the students are what he’ll miss most. “I wanna be helpful. I wanna mentor teachers. I want to do what I can just to see things continue to be successful,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he’ll also take time to tap back into the professional music world. This summer you can find Porter playing at one of his annual \u003ca href=\"https://oakland.chapelofthechimes.com/about-us/news-and-events/event-detail/58006-oakland-annual-solstice-concert\">gigs\u003c/a>, Chapel of the Chimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Oliver, an only child, was born in 2018, and he and his parents don’t live near family. When the pandemic hit, “it was kinda like a perfect storm” during such an important time in early childhood development, said Dan, Oliver’s dad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oliver’s teachers noticed early on in preschool that he was having a hard time engaging with his peers and would keep to himself during group activities, Dan said. His parents initially brushed it off as shyness. “It really surprised us because we don’t see that at home at all,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as his teachers brought up their concerns, Dan and his wife, who weren’t familiar with the special education system, began to learn all about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They were prepared to send Oliver to the local public school for kindergarten. But when they found out about Copper Island Academy, they saw an opportunity for Oliver to experience a different type of school, one that reminded Dan of his own school experience, when class sizes were smaller and students connected with their peers and teachers beyond traditional academics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy is where “sisu” — a Finnish word describing an internal level of grit and perseverance — is paramount. It’s a K-8 charter school serving students and their families from the surrounding area of Calumet, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula. Tucked behind an EMS vehicle service center on the only road to and from the town’s one-room airport, you might never know that the school is there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6353911588\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1562\" height=\"1463\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983.jpg\" alt=\"A poster is displayed on a wall\" class=\"wp-image-66188\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983.jpg 1562w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-160x150.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-768x719.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-1536x1439.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1562px) 100vw, 1562px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A poster creating an acronym of the word “sisu” is on display at Copper Island Academy. (Marlena Jackson-Retondo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Launched in the fall of 2021, the school was developed by educator duo and married couple Matt and Nora Laho. But this isn’t just their brainchild. It was actualized in collaboration with community members and families searching for an answer to their concerns about public education — like increased screentime, a lack of joy in learning, less challenging lessons and dwindling extracurricular offerings — during the thick of the COVID-19 pandemic, Matt Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The parent community also wanted more skilled trades and culinary arts in the day-to-day curriculum, Laho said. For example, parents noted the slow decline in shop classes offered in public schools, so Copper Island made a concerted effort to bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group considered many education models, Laho said, including Montessori and hybrid models, but ultimately they landed on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/55006/the-teachers-role-in-finlands-phenomenon-based-learning\">Finnish education model\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Finnish education model is marked by teacher autonomy and collaboration, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/47909/how-kids-learn-better-by-taking-frequent-breaks-throughout-the-day\">frequent breaks\u003c/a>, inclusive practices and differentiation, according to \u003ca href=\"https://taughtbyfinland.com/\">Tim Walker\u003c/a>, Copper Island Academy’s Finnish education model consultant, who has written several books about \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Teach-Like-Finland/\">teaching in Finland\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers in Finland are highly respected professionals, and it’s difficult to obtain teaching credentials. Teachers are allotted ample time for planning and prep, and they’re expected to leave school at the end of the day alongside their students. In the U.S., teacher shortages are common, morale and teacher pay are low and planning and prep periods are painfully short.\u003c/p>\n\n\nCalumet and the surrounding area are home to the highest percentage of people of Finnish heritage outside of Finland itself. But that didn’t mean schools in the area operated like their cross-Atlantic counterparts. For the Lahos, the Finnish model represented what parents and families in the area wanted most out of their children’s education: hands-on classrooms, real-world life skills and a focus on joy.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s so great about Finland? \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early 2000s, Finland emerged as an unexpected global leader in education after the first Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) scores, published in 2001, ranked Finland number one among the 31 other participating countries. The U.S. showed middle-of-the-road academic scores and was ranked in the 15th spot that same year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2001, the Bush administration also reauthorized the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) and rolled out the No Child Left Behind Act in public schools across the country in 2002, so education reform was already top of mind in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the decade following the 2001 PISA scores, Finland continued to rank in the top three participating countries. Within that time, the U.S. was one of many countries that looked to Finland’s balanced approach to learning for guidance on pedagogical practices, which included differentiated learning and early intervention practices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But by the 2010s, Finland’s PISA scores began to fall, and the hype died down. And organizations like the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which administers the PISA exams, began to encourage schools to focus more on student well-being beyond academic success, said Walker, an American teacher who taught in Finland for more than 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the draw to a Finnish model still remains today in education circles, and for Copper Island Academy, it landed close to home.\u003c/p>\n\n\nAnd for parents like Dan, Copper Island had the added benefit of an inclusive special education program. He said enrolling Oliver at Copper Island Academy “was the best decision we possibly could have made.”\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Special education, the Finnish way\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Oliver has an Individualized Education Program (IEP), a highly detailed, legally binding document, requiring an official diagnosis. The family asked we not use their last name because of privacy concerns for their child. IEPs adjust the curriculum for an individual student in order to meet their goals. Part of Oliver’s education plan includes push-ins during general education classroom time with Jennifer Gervais, one of Copper Island Academy’s special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Push-ins are a form of support that keeps students in the classroom alongside their peers rather than in a siloed special education classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During a push-in on one of his more difficult mornings, Gervais sits next to Oliver and quietly prompts him to participate. The other students are used to her presence in their classroom and aren’t phased. Oliver’s responses are very quiet, but he does take part in a phonics lesson led by his teacher, Ms. Erva. And if you listen very carefully, you can hear his peers encouraging him with a “good job, Oliver,” after his turn to play the phonics game is over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_JenGervais_headshot-e1773379859400.png\" alt=\"Woman in front of window\" class=\"wp-image-66186\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy teacher Jennifer Gervais. (Marlena Jackson-Retondo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although Oliver’s experience at Copper Island Academy has been positive, many students struggle to get the services they need.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cgg/students-with-disabilities#:~:text=In%202022%E2%80%9323%2C%20the%20number,of%20all%20public%20school%20students.\">7.5 million students\u003c/a> receiving special education services in the U.S. — the majority of whom are diagnosed with \u003ca href=\"https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/specific-learning-disorder/what-is-specific-learning-disorder\">specific learning disorders\u003c/a> like dyslexia, dysgraphia or dyscalculia. Even for those students who are identified as needing to receive special education services early on, the path to receiving these supports is hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most often in the U.S., students must exhaust Tier 1 and Tier 2 support services, which consist of specialized, small group instruction from a general education teacher, specialists or paraeducators, before receiving an IEP — a Tier 3 special education service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the special education system in Finland is marked by teacher and family collaboration, personalized learning and trust in teacher expertise; special education intervention in Finland is seen as a preventative and inclusive practice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Everybody’s getting support,” said Helmi Betancourt, an elementary special education teacher in Helsinki, Finland. Like many special education teachers in Finland, Betancourt is assigned to many different classrooms. Throughout the week, she spends a couple of hours in each of her assigned classrooms teaching alongside the general education teacher. If there is an individual student or smaller group of students who need extra help outside of their general education classroom, Betancourt has the flexibility to pull them into a separate learning environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to support a student with special education resources is seen as a pedagogical one, and is accessible for any student in the classroom who is struggling with academic or behavioral issues, according to Betancourt and her colleague in special education, Anna-Mari Vuohelainen. Teachers are free to make these decisions without the explicit consent of parents and without waiting for a diagnosis for additional support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s based on the benefit of the child,” not on a diagnosis, Betancourt said. They use a classroom-based support system to be more inclusive of special education students in their general education classrooms, and to make sure that other students who are not yet receiving support, but might need it, get it as early as possible. This also makes for less paperwork.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The idea is that nobody has to wait for the support that they need,” said Betancourt, because sometimes, getting a diagnosis takes a long time and it’s unfair to a student if they can’t get support for years. And the students identified as having the most intensive needs receive them in a setting that makes the most sense for their needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\nBut there isn’t necessarily a one-to-one application of the Finnish education model to the U.S. special education system.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Early intervention and measuring student growth\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Early intervention is one of the hallmarks of the Finnish education model, and is one that Copper Island has emulated. According to Laho, early intervention allows Copper Island to tackle problems as they emerge and before a formal special education referral needs to be placed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In order to identify student needs, teachers across departments regularly meet to hold student success meetings. These meetings occur outside of traditional IEP or special education meeting requirements, and all students are considered. This is where they identify students who are struggling, collaborate on how to help the student and regularly check in. Student success meetings often happen before parent involvement, and if the plan to remediate doesn’t work, then they might have to call a parent in to work out a more robust support plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special education teachers attend student success meetings, but not necessarily to provide special education services. They’re there because of their expertise in Tier 2 and Tier 3 intervention. It’s a seemingly small distinction to make, but a rather important one that advances a culture of trust and respect in educators who are highly regarded for their pedagogical expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The success of these meetings is measured in individual student growth, not achievement. The teachers and admin focus on answering questions like: Where did this student start the year? Where are they mid-year, and where did they end the year? And according to Laho, student growth is the most useful measurement that Copper Island tracks, and they do so without compromising measurable achievement.\u003c/p>\n\n\nStudents at Copper Island Academy score very high on traditional indicators of student achievement. Most notably, they received a score of 99.03 in the 2024-25 Michigan School Index — a state-run public school accountability system that evaluates overall school achievement on a scale of 0-100 — placing the school in the top 3.5% of all Michigan public schools.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Inclusion first for special education students \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>The school’s unwavering stance on inclusion of all students in general education classrooms was a big deal for Gervais.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In other schools throughout her experience in special education, which spans more than a decade, Gervais has had to fight to get special education students included in the general education classroom, she said. Self-contained special education support is not an uncommon practice in public schools across the U.S., in which students receiving differing levels of special education support are kept from their general education peers for much of the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although some level of inclusion in general education classrooms is a North Star for special education in the U.S. public school system, it isn’t always possible or recommended for every student. The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act does not have a number or percentage of general education classroom time that each student with an IEP is required to meet. Rather, inclusion is measured by Least Restrictive Environment practices. But across special education, the measurable benchmark for “good” general education classroom integration time per student hovers around \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=59\">80%\u003c/a>, although classroom time alone doesn’t automatically lead to improved outcomes, said Chris Lemons, a professor who specializes in learning disabilities at Stanford University’s Graduate School of Education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special education teaching presents its own unique challenges, but according to Jeremy Jarvi, who has taught in self-contained, mild-to-moderate and moderate-to-severe special education classrooms in the Bay Area, the prominent issues that come to mind are systemic and bureaucratic in nature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We can’t force it,” said Jarvi, of inclusion in all cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For parents like \u003ca href=\"http://www.danielwillingham.com/\">Daniel Willingham\u003c/a> and his wife, navigating the special education system for their daughter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-willingham-how-to-interact-with-a-disabled-child-20180322-story.html\">Esprit\u003c/a>, over a decade ago was challenging and frustrating. Willingham is an education expert, and his wife is a teacher, but even then, it took a lot of time and expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To be clear, my child was profoundly disabled and so education for her looked quite different,” Willingham said. “It’s not like she was having trouble reading … she couldn’t speak.” So education for Esprit looked like setting up systems for her to be able to communicate “yes” and “no,” and inclusion in a general education classroom wasn’t possible or the best option for her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although Esprit’s medical conditions required in-home care and schooling, Willingham and his family experienced many of the common failures and triumphs of the U.S. special education system. They dealt with the frustration that comes with “tangling with bureaucracy,” but also benefited from interactions with educators and therapists who were “working very, very hard under very difficult circumstances trying to help children,” Willingham said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n“We frequently marveled that anyone was able to navigate through this system,” especially families without a stay-at-home parent, Willingham said.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Paraeducators and classroom staffing\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Classroom staffing can be an issue, according to Jarvi, and at previous schools he found himself spending a lot of time each week training paraeducators.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“On top of working with the kids, I’m training adults … you hope that they get it the first time,” but they don’t always, and this takes time away from individualized instruction, Jarvi said of his past experiences. He now works with experienced paraeducators who have made a big difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paraeducators are recognized by many states as essential to the K-12 classroom. And for some, like Lemons, the Stanford professor, the idea of paraeducators in the classroom is promising. This is not only because there are more paraeducators than special education teachers in the public school system, but also because they are with students throughout the entire school day, including in special education and general education classrooms, Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the U.S. paraeducators only need a high school diploma, and “in many districts, [paraeducators] receive the least amount of training, the least amount of support; they’re paid the least, but in many ways, they’re kind of the cog in the system that makes everything work, especially for kids with more extensive support needs,” Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n\n\nSo far, Copper Island has had a positive experience with their paraeducators because of their willingness to go through the extra training and credentialing that the school requires outside of Michigan’s academic standards, according to Laho. The school’s paraeducators are trained on Orton-Gillingham or Morphology, which are touted for their detailed and unique approach to literacy education, especially for students who struggle. Laho said having paraeducators trained in these two methods allows for flexibility “to use multiple different people to attack a problem.”\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Trust in special education teachers\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>In Finland, conversations between special education teachers and general education teachers happen on a regular basis, and pedagogical approaches to addressing all student learning are shared.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Walker, the special education teacher who assisted in his Finnish classroom was seen as an “instructional coach who’s not at a higher level than the general ed teacher, but is still this trusted colleague … who has specialized knowledge in assisting kids who need more support in the classroom.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A second set of discerning eyes can go a long way. Knowing that he wasn’t alone in providing attentive and individualized instruction for students with IEPs or those who needed a little bit of extra help with a specific subject matter was a relief to Walker. This practice of part-time, in-classroom special education instruction also allowed for Walker to exercise intellectual humility. He acknowledged that the special education teacher’s presence in his classroom two times per week exposed growth areas to better meet student needs, a ritual that he welcomed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“For a lot of teachers out there, especially in the United States — when they don’t have this type of [inclusive] model — it’s very easy for you to feel alone in your classroom,” Walker said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These types of experiences have roots in teacher training programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the U.S., “typically, teachers who are trained to be general education teachers receive way too little training related to supporting kids with disabilities,” said Lemons, pointing out that some graduate schools of education, like Stanford’s, offer only one course focused on students with disabilities to elementary teacher candidates. On top of that, he said there’s almost zero training on how general education teachers can build effective working relationships with special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even at Copper Island, where teachers are trained in differentiation, general education teachers have had some trepidation about approaching differentiated learning practices. But experts like Gervais are available and willing to work with general education teachers to adjust their lessons so that everyone can learn with their peers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I told every one of them, ‘I will gladly show you because in special ed you learn to differentiate anything that’s thrown at you,’” Gervais said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And offering to help general education teachers with differentiating their work also benefits other students outside of special education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n“We don’t just teach to that middle student. It helps everybody,” Gervais said.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Brain breaks for everyone, outside\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Like schools in Finland, Copper Island prioritizes outdoor time for all students, which happens at a greater frequency than a typical U.S. school. This was one of the major draws for Dan and his family, and regular outdoor time during the school day has helped Oliver come out of his shell, connect with friends and focus in the classroom, Dan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But time outside at this school doesn’t just happen during recess and lunch; it happens every 45 minutes for 15 minutes at a time. This is Copper Island’s version of “brain breaks” — a tried and true method of allowing for, typically, classroom time spent away from academic subjects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brain breaks are used in both American and Finnish schools, but the way that Copper Island does brain breaks is different from most U.S. schools. Typically, brain breaks in American classrooms are occasional, very short, in-class and not necessarily physical.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brain breaks at Copper Island are always spent outside — rain or shine or snow — and they happen seamlessly at all grade levels. When the brain break begins, students walk quietly through the hallways and out into the schoolyard. Once the break is over, a whistle is blown, and the students quickly and quietly pile through the school’s back doors, returning to their classrooms with minimal prompting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Usually, moments of transition like these are a stress point for teachers, who are tasked with managing energetic or even disengaged students itching to get away from the lesson plan, and then coaxing them back into the lesson plan. It might even be unfathomable to some teachers across the U.S. to get all students outside for a brain break and then settled and back into the classroom, all within 15 minutes, multiple times per day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there wasn’t any yelling or running down hallways to get to a brain break at Copper Island when I visited. And when asked, teachers repeatedly brushed off any potential stress or anxiety around transitions in and out of brain breaks. It turns out these breaks aren’t just good for students, they’re good for the teachers too, who spend most of their classroom time executing highly engaged and individualized lesson plans for all of their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edvF_AJXU5I&t=3s\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s only one rule during brain breaks at Copper Island Academy — sports balls aren’t allowed. “The minute that you give a sports ball to somebody, you put rules and limitations on [their play],” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, kids in elementary school are encouraged to play with each other and throughout the various outdoor spaces, like their play structure, the perimeter of surrounding woods, in the garden or on the structure made of industrial-sized rubber tires.\u003c/p>\n\n\nSports balls are reintroduced during brain breaks for middle schoolers, who Laho said might need additional motivation to move their bodies and spend time outdoors.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Can Copper Island be replicated? It depends\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Calumet and the surrounding Houghton County area are a pocket of the U.S. that has preserved old town Americana charm, for better or for worse. Some people don’t lock their front doors, and they leave their keys in their cars when they are away, just in case someone needs to borrow them. The people are kind and welcoming, and very quick to recommend their claim to fame: the meat pasty. And Copper Island Academy reflects these unique traits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The families in the community had worried that the Finnish model in a location with such an overwhelmingly large population of people with Finnish heritage would be seen as exclusionary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to Laho, the diversity at Copper Island Academy reflects that of the surrounding area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So far we haven’t seen any discrepancies between, you know, one demographic or another,” Laho said about student academic achievement and behavioral data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school has also made a significant effort to support teachers beyond their professional development days with Walker and more than what you might find in an average American public school classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Something fundamental took place during the pandemic, Walker said. In the scramble to overhaul in-person learning to virtual learning, along with the pressure to mitigate learning loss, teachers started to publicly acknowledge their dismal working conditions, Walker said. And American society took notice, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There was something about COVID that broke many educators,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But paying attention to teacher well-being in a holistic manner at Copper Island has paid off. The school’s baby pilot program allows new mothers, who are only allotted 12 weeks of unpaid maternity leave by federal standards, to ease their way back into teaching full time again after having a baby. On certain days, babies are allowed in the classroom, and teachers meet their hours without having to choose continuous, outsourced child care for their infants.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The teachers also created a support group they call “Tsemppiä,” a Finnish word that doesn’t have a direct translation, but one that Walker compared to terms like “godspeed” or “strength” and is used in Finland as a word of encouragement. And the Tsemppiä group at Copper Island does just that — it exists as a support group made by and for teachers experiencing difficulties in their personal lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although Tsemppiä was established before Walker came on as an educational consultant, he quickly recognized its purpose from his days teaching in Finland. The U.S. has a habit of creating and encouraging “super teachers,” Walker said — individuals who exceed, above and beyond, which harbors competition to be “the best.” In his experience, “super teachers” don’t really exist in Finland, Walker said, and instead there’s more of a spirit of teamwork and collaboration between teachers. The adoption of this part of Finnish culture is a big part of why Copper Island has been able to be so successful, Walker said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Additionally, the administrators don’t seem to hover at Copper Island; rather, as Laho said, they trust their teachers to get their work done. If lesson planning needs to happen at home, then that works for the school administrators. If teachers need to leave the building with the students at 3:20 p.m. when the school day is over, that also works.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy experiences the everyday limitations that many American schools and educators face. “I wish we could pay our teachers what they’re worth financially,” said Laho, adding that the school does “find ways to leverage what [they do] have to help” their teachers in other ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We want to try to find ways to support the teachers in what they’re doing, knowing that we’re asking them to do a lot within our model,” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1262\" height=\"1618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184.png\" alt=\"Man smiling for portrait\" class=\"wp-image-66185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184.png 1262w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-160x205.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-768x985.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-1198x1536.png 1198w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1262px) 100vw, 1262px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy co-founder Matt Laho. (Marlena Jackson-Retondo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As for students, the school has put into place measures to encourage their belonging in the community. Students are grouped intentionally in classrooms, which gives them the opportunity to work and play with the peers that they may not organically gravitate toward, Laho said. This practice of belonging and empathy extends throughout the school culture, both in the classroom, outdoors and in the community, Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when Dan is out in the neighborhood with his son, or at a local hockey game, all of the hard work that Oliver and his teachers have done to face challenging social situations has paid off. Now, when Oliver sees someone familiar outside of school, “[he] always points out, ‘Hey, there’s my friend from school’ or ‘there’s my teacher,’” Dan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He described enrolling Oliver in Copper Island as one of the best decisions he’s recently made and is glad he did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that connection between the students and the students and their and their teachers is really great,” he said. “Really, really great.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-audio\">\u003caudio controls src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6353911588\">\u003c/audio>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Oliver’s teachers noticed early on in preschool that he was having a hard time engaging with his peers and would keep to himself during group activities, Dan said. His parents initially brushed it off as shyness. “It really surprised us because we don’t see that at home at all,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They were prepared to send Oliver to the local public school for kindergarten. But when they found out about Copper Island Academy, they saw an opportunity for Oliver to experience a different type of school, one that reminded Dan of his own school experience, when class sizes were smaller and students connected with their peers and teachers beyond traditional academics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy is where “sisu” — a Finnish word describing an internal level of grit and perseverance — is paramount. It’s a K-8 charter school serving students and their families from the surrounding area of Calumet, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula. Tucked behind an EMS vehicle service center on the only road to and from the town’s one-room airport, you might never know that the school is there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy is where “sisu” — a Finnish word describing an internal level of grit and perseverance — is paramount. It’s a K-8 charter school serving students and their families from the surrounding area of Calumet, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula. Tucked behind an EMS vehicle service center on the only road to and from the town’s one-room airport, you might never know that the school is there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983.jpg\" alt=\"A poster is displayed on a wall\" class=\"wp-image-66188\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983.jpg 1562w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-160x150.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-768x719.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-1536x1439.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A poster creating an acronym of the word “sisu” is on display at Copper Island Academy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983.jpg\" alt=\"A poster is displayed on a wall\" class=\"wp-image-66188\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A poster creating an acronym of the word “sisu” is on display at Copper Island Academy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Launched in the fall of 2021, the school was developed by educator duo and married couple Matt and Nora Laho. But this isn’t just their brainchild. It was actualized in collaboration with community members and families searching for an answer to their concerns about public education — like increased screentime, a lack of joy in learning, less challenging lessons and dwindling extracurricular offerings — during the thick of the COVID-19 pandemic, Matt Laho said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Launched in the fall of 2021, the school was developed by educator duo and married couple Matt and Nora Laho. But this isn’t just their brainchild. It was actualized in collaboration with community members and families searching for an answer to their concerns about public education — like increased screentime, a lack of joy in learning, less challenging lessons and dwindling extracurricular offerings — during the thick of the COVID-19 pandemic, Matt Laho said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The parent community also wanted more skilled trades and culinary arts in the day-to-day curriculum, Laho said. For example, parents noted the slow decline in shop classes offered in public schools, so Copper Island made a concerted effort to bring them back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The parent community also wanted more skilled trades and culinary arts in the day-to-day curriculum, Laho said. For example, parents noted the slow decline in shop classes offered in public schools, so Copper Island made a concerted effort to bring them back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The group considered many education models, Laho said, including Montessori and hybrid models, but ultimately they landed on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/55006/the-teachers-role-in-finlands-phenomenon-based-learning\">Finnish education model\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The group considered many education models, Laho said, including Montessori and hybrid models, but ultimately they landed on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/55006/the-teachers-role-in-finlands-phenomenon-based-learning\">Finnish education model\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Finnish education model is marked by teacher autonomy and collaboration, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/47909/how-kids-learn-better-by-taking-frequent-breaks-throughout-the-day\">frequent breaks\u003c/a>, inclusive practices and differentiation, according to \u003ca href=\"https://taughtbyfinland.com/\">Tim Walker\u003c/a>, Copper Island Academy’s Finnish education model consultant, who has written several books about \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Teach-Like-Finland/\">teaching in Finland\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The Finnish education model is marked by teacher autonomy and collaboration, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/47909/how-kids-learn-better-by-taking-frequent-breaks-throughout-the-day\">frequent breaks\u003c/a>, inclusive practices and differentiation, according to \u003ca href=\"https://taughtbyfinland.com/\">Tim Walker\u003c/a>, Copper Island Academy’s Finnish education model consultant, who has written several books about \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Teach-Like-Finland/\">teaching in Finland\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Teachers in Finland are highly respected professionals, and it’s difficult to obtain teaching credentials. Teachers are allotted ample time for planning and prep, and they’re expected to leave school at the end of the day alongside their students. In the U.S., teacher shortages are common, morale and teacher pay are low and planning and prep periods are painfully short.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Teachers in Finland are highly respected professionals, and it’s difficult to obtain teaching credentials. Teachers are allotted ample time for planning and prep, and they’re expected to leave school at the end of the day alongside their students. In the U.S., teacher shortages are common, morale and teacher pay are low and planning and prep periods are painfully short.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the early 2000s, Finland emerged as an unexpected global leader in education after the first Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) scores, published in 2001, ranked Finland number one among the 31 other participating countries. The U.S. showed middle-of-the-road academic scores and was ranked in the 15th spot that same year.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>In the early 2000s, Finland emerged as an unexpected global leader in education after the first Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) scores, published in 2001, ranked Finland number one among the 31 other participating countries. The U.S. showed middle-of-the-road academic scores and was ranked in the 15th spot that same year.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 2001, the Bush administration also reauthorized the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) and rolled out the No Child Left Behind Act in public schools across the country in 2002, so education reform was already top of mind in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>In 2001, the Bush administration also reauthorized the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) and rolled out the No Child Left Behind Act in public schools across the country in 2002, so education reform was already top of mind in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the decade following the 2001 PISA scores, Finland continued to rank in the top three participating countries. Within that time, the U.S. was one of many countries that looked to Finland’s balanced approach to learning for guidance on pedagogical practices, which included differentiated learning and early intervention practices.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>In the decade following the 2001 PISA scores, Finland continued to rank in the top three participating countries. Within that time, the U.S. was one of many countries that looked to Finland’s balanced approach to learning for guidance on pedagogical practices, which included differentiated learning and early intervention practices.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But by the 2010s, Finland’s PISA scores began to fall, and the hype died down. And organizations like the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which administers the PISA exams, began to encourage schools to focus more on student well-being beyond academic success, said Walker, an American teacher who taught in Finland for more than 10 years.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But by the 2010s, Finland’s PISA scores began to fall, and the hype died down. And organizations like the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which administers the PISA exams, began to encourage schools to focus more on student well-being beyond academic success, said Walker, an American teacher who taught in Finland for more than 10 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, the draw to a Finnish model still remains today in education circles, and for Copper Island Academy, it landed close to home.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>However, the draw to a Finnish model still remains today in education circles, and for Copper Island Academy, it landed close to home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Oliver has an Individualized Education Program (IEP), a highly detailed, legally binding document, requiring an official diagnosis. The family asked we not use their last name because of privacy concerns for their child. IEPs adjust the curriculum for an individual student in order to meet their goals. Part of Oliver’s education plan includes push-ins during general education classroom time with Jennifer Gervais, one of Copper Island Academy’s special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Oliver has an Individualized Education Program (IEP), a highly detailed, legally binding document, requiring an official diagnosis. The family asked we not use their last name because of privacy concerns for their child. IEPs adjust the curriculum for an individual student in order to meet their goals. Part of Oliver’s education plan includes push-ins during general education classroom time with Jennifer Gervais, one of Copper Island Academy’s special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Push-ins are a form of support that keeps students in the classroom alongside their peers rather than in a siloed special education classroom.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Push-ins are a form of support that keeps students in the classroom alongside their peers rather than in a siloed special education classroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During a push-in on one of his more difficult mornings, Gervais sits next to Oliver and quietly prompts him to participate. The other students are used to her presence in their classroom and aren’t phased. Oliver’s responses are very quiet, but he does take part in a phonics lesson led by his teacher, Ms. Erva. And if you listen very carefully, you can hear his peers encouraging him with a “good job, Oliver,” after his turn to play the phonics game is over.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>During a push-in on one of his more difficult mornings, Gervais sits next to Oliver and quietly prompts him to participate. The other students are used to her presence in their classroom and aren’t phased. Oliver’s responses are very quiet, but he does take part in a phonics lesson led by his teacher, Ms. Erva. And if you listen very carefully, you can hear his peers encouraging him with a “good job, Oliver,” after his turn to play the phonics game is over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_JenGervais_headshot-e1773379859400.png\" alt=\"Woman in front of window\" class=\"wp-image-66186\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy teacher Jennifer Gervais.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_JenGervais_headshot-e1773379859400.png\" alt=\"Woman in front of window\" class=\"wp-image-66186\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy teacher Jennifer Gervais.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although Oliver’s experience at Copper Island Academy has been positive, many students struggle to get the services they need.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Although Oliver’s experience at Copper Island Academy has been positive, many students struggle to get the services they need.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cgg/students-with-disabilities#:~:text=In%202022%E2%80%9323%2C%20the%20number,of%20all%20public%20school%20students.\">7.5 million students\u003c/a> receiving special education services in the U.S. — the majority of whom are diagnosed with \u003ca href=\"https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/specific-learning-disorder/what-is-specific-learning-disorder\">specific learning disorders\u003c/a> like dyslexia, dysgraphia or dyscalculia. Even for those students who are identified as needing to receive special education services early on, the path to receiving these supports is hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>There are \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cgg/students-with-disabilities#:~:text=In%202022%E2%80%9323%2C%20the%20number,of%20all%20public%20school%20students.\">7.5 million students\u003c/a> receiving special education services in the U.S. — the majority of whom are diagnosed with \u003ca href=\"https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/specific-learning-disorder/what-is-specific-learning-disorder\">specific learning disorders\u003c/a> like dyslexia, dysgraphia or dyscalculia. Even for those students who are identified as needing to receive special education services early on, the path to receiving these supports is hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Most often in the U.S., students must exhaust Tier 1 and Tier 2 support services, which consist of specialized, small group instruction from a general education teacher, specialists or paraeducators, before receiving an IEP — a Tier 3 special education service.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Most often in the U.S., students must exhaust Tier 1 and Tier 2 support services, which consist of specialized, small group instruction from a general education teacher, specialists or paraeducators, before receiving an IEP — a Tier 3 special education service.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, the special education system in Finland is marked by teacher and family collaboration, personalized learning and trust in teacher expertise; special education intervention in Finland is seen as a preventative and inclusive practice.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>However, the special education system in Finland is marked by teacher and family collaboration, personalized learning and trust in teacher expertise; special education intervention in Finland is seen as a preventative and inclusive practice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Everybody’s getting support,” said Helmi Betancourt, an elementary special education teacher in Helsinki, Finland. Like many special education teachers in Finland, Betancourt is assigned to many different classrooms. Throughout the week, she spends a couple of hours in each of her assigned classrooms teaching alongside the general education teacher. If there is an individual student or smaller group of students who need extra help outside of their general education classroom, Betancourt has the flexibility to pull them into a separate learning environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Everybody’s getting support,” said Helmi Betancourt, an elementary special education teacher in Helsinki, Finland. Like many special education teachers in Finland, Betancourt is assigned to many different classrooms. Throughout the week, she spends a couple of hours in each of her assigned classrooms teaching alongside the general education teacher. If there is an individual student or smaller group of students who need extra help outside of their general education classroom, Betancourt has the flexibility to pull them into a separate learning environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The decision to support a student with special education resources is seen as a pedagogical one, and is accessible for any student in the classroom who is struggling with academic or behavioral issues, according to Betancourt and her colleague in special education, Anna-Mari Vuohelainen. Teachers are free to make these decisions without the explicit consent of parents and without waiting for a diagnosis for additional support.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The decision to support a student with special education resources is seen as a pedagogical one, and is accessible for any student in the classroom who is struggling with academic or behavioral issues, according to Betancourt and her colleague in special education, Anna-Mari Vuohelainen. Teachers are free to make these decisions without the explicit consent of parents and without waiting for a diagnosis for additional support.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s based on the benefit of the child,” not on a diagnosis, Betancourt said. They use a classroom-based support system to be more inclusive of special education students in their general education classrooms, and to make sure that other students who are not yet receiving support, but might need it, get it as early as possible. This also makes for less paperwork.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“It’s based on the benefit of the child,” not on a diagnosis, Betancourt said. They use a classroom-based support system to be more inclusive of special education students in their general education classrooms, and to make sure that other students who are not yet receiving support, but might need it, get it as early as possible. This also makes for less paperwork.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The idea is that nobody has to wait for the support that they need,” said Betancourt, because sometimes, getting a diagnosis takes a long time and it’s unfair to a student if they can’t get support for years. And the students identified as having the most intensive needs receive them in a setting that makes the most sense for their needs.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“The idea is that nobody has to wait for the support that they need,” said Betancourt, because sometimes, getting a diagnosis takes a long time and it’s unfair to a student if they can’t get support for years. And the students identified as having the most intensive needs receive them in a setting that makes the most sense for their needs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Early intervention is one of the hallmarks of the Finnish education model, and is one that Copper Island has emulated. According to Laho, early intervention allows Copper Island to tackle problems as they emerge and before a formal special education referral needs to be placed.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Early intervention is one of the hallmarks of the Finnish education model, and is one that Copper Island has emulated. According to Laho, early intervention allows Copper Island to tackle problems as they emerge and before a formal special education referral needs to be placed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In order to identify student needs, teachers across departments regularly meet to hold student success meetings. These meetings occur outside of traditional IEP or special education meeting requirements, and all students are considered. This is where they identify students who are struggling, collaborate on how to help the student and regularly check in. Student success meetings often happen before parent involvement, and if the plan to remediate doesn’t work, then they might have to call a parent in to work out a more robust support plan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In order to identify student needs, teachers across departments regularly meet to hold student success meetings. These meetings occur outside of traditional IEP or special education meeting requirements, and all students are considered. This is where they identify students who are struggling, collaborate on how to help the student and regularly check in. Student success meetings often happen before parent involvement, and if the plan to remediate doesn’t work, then they might have to call a parent in to work out a more robust support plan.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special education teachers attend student success meetings, but not necessarily to provide special education services. They’re there because of their expertise in Tier 2 and Tier 3 intervention. It’s a seemingly small distinction to make, but a rather important one that advances a culture of trust and respect in educators who are highly regarded for their pedagogical expertise.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Special education teachers attend student success meetings, but not necessarily to provide special education services. They’re there because of their expertise in Tier 2 and Tier 3 intervention. It’s a seemingly small distinction to make, but a rather important one that advances a culture of trust and respect in educators who are highly regarded for their pedagogical expertise.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The success of these meetings is measured in individual student growth, not achievement. The teachers and admin focus on answering questions like: Where did this student start the year? Where are they mid-year, and where did they end the year? And according to Laho, student growth is the most useful measurement that Copper Island tracks, and they do so without compromising measurable achievement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The success of these meetings is measured in individual student growth, not achievement. The teachers and admin focus on answering questions like: Where did this student start the year? Where are they mid-year, and where did they end the year? And according to Laho, student growth is the most useful measurement that Copper Island tracks, and they do so without compromising measurable achievement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The school’s unwavering stance on inclusion of all students in general education classrooms was a big deal for Gervais.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The school’s unwavering stance on inclusion of all students in general education classrooms was a big deal for Gervais.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In other schools throughout her experience in special education, which spans more than a decade, Gervais has had to fight to get special education students included in the general education classroom, she said. Self-contained special education support is not an uncommon practice in public schools across the U.S., in which students receiving differing levels of special education support are kept from their general education peers for much of the day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In other schools throughout her experience in special education, which spans more than a decade, Gervais has had to fight to get special education students included in the general education classroom, she said. Self-contained special education support is not an uncommon practice in public schools across the U.S., in which students receiving differing levels of special education support are kept from their general education peers for much of the day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although some level of inclusion in general education classrooms is a North Star for special education in the U.S. public school system, it isn’t always possible or recommended for every student. The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act does not have a number or percentage of general education classroom time that each student with an IEP is required to meet. Rather, inclusion is measured by Least Restrictive Environment practices. But across special education, the measurable benchmark for “good” general education classroom integration time per student hovers around \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=59\">80%\u003c/a>, although classroom time alone doesn’t automatically lead to improved outcomes, said Chris Lemons, a professor who specializes in learning disabilities at Stanford University’s Graduate School of Education.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although some level of inclusion in general education classrooms is a North Star for special education in the U.S. public school system, it isn’t always possible or recommended for every student. The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act does not have a number or percentage of general education classroom time that each student with an IEP is required to meet. Rather, inclusion is measured by Least Restrictive Environment practices. But across special education, the measurable benchmark for “good” general education classroom integration time per student hovers around \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=59\">80%\u003c/a>, although classroom time alone doesn’t automatically lead to improved outcomes, said Chris Lemons, a professor who specializes in learning disabilities at Stanford University’s Graduate School of Education.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Special education teaching presents its own unique challenges, but according to Jeremy Jarvi, who has taught in self-contained, mild-to-moderate and moderate-to-severe special education classrooms in the Bay Area, the prominent issues that come to mind are systemic and bureaucratic in nature.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Special education teaching presents its own unique challenges, but according to Jeremy Jarvi, who has taught in self-contained, mild-to-moderate and moderate-to-severe special education classrooms in the Bay Area, the prominent issues that come to mind are systemic and bureaucratic in nature.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We can’t force it,” said Jarvi, of inclusion in all cases.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We can’t force it,” said Jarvi, of inclusion in all cases.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For parents like \u003ca href=\"http://www.danielwillingham.com/\">Daniel Willingham\u003c/a> and his wife, navigating the special education system for their daughter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-willingham-how-to-interact-with-a-disabled-child-20180322-story.html\">Esprit\u003c/a>, over a decade ago was challenging and frustrating. Willingham is an education expert, and his wife is a teacher, but even then, it took a lot of time and expertise.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For parents like \u003ca href=\"http://www.danielwillingham.com/\">Daniel Willingham\u003c/a> and his wife, navigating the special education system for their daughter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-willingham-how-to-interact-with-a-disabled-child-20180322-story.html\">Esprit\u003c/a>, over a decade ago was challenging and frustrating. Willingham is an education expert, and his wife is a teacher, but even then, it took a lot of time and expertise.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“To be clear, my child was profoundly disabled and so education for her looked quite different,” Willingham said. “It’s not like she was having trouble reading … she couldn’t speak.” So education for Esprit looked like setting up systems for her to be able to communicate “yes” and “no,” and inclusion in a general education classroom wasn’t possible or the best option for her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“To be clear, my child was profoundly disabled and so education for her looked quite different,” Willingham said. “It’s not like she was having trouble reading … she couldn’t speak.” So education for Esprit looked like setting up systems for her to be able to communicate “yes” and “no,” and inclusion in a general education classroom wasn’t possible or the best option for her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although Esprit’s medical conditions required in-home care and schooling, Willingham and his family experienced many of the common failures and triumphs of the U.S. special education system. They dealt with the frustration that comes with “tangling with bureaucracy,” but also benefited from interactions with educators and therapists who were “working very, very hard under very difficult circumstances trying to help children,” Willingham said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although Esprit’s medical conditions required in-home care and schooling, Willingham and his family experienced many of the common failures and triumphs of the U.S. special education system. They dealt with the frustration that comes with “tangling with bureaucracy,” but also benefited from interactions with educators and therapists who were “working very, very hard under very difficult circumstances trying to help children,” Willingham said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Classroom staffing can be an issue, according to Jarvi, and at previous schools he found himself spending a lot of time each week training paraeducators.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“On top of working with the kids, I’m training adults … you hope that they get it the first time,” but they don’t always, and this takes time away from individualized instruction, Jarvi said of his past experiences. He now works with experienced paraeducators who have made a big difference.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“On top of working with the kids, I’m training adults … you hope that they get it the first time,” but they don’t always, and this takes time away from individualized instruction, Jarvi said of his past experiences. He now works with experienced paraeducators who have made a big difference.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Paraeducators are recognized by many states as essential to the K-12 classroom. And for some, like Lemons, the Stanford professor, the idea of paraeducators in the classroom is promising. This is not only because there are more paraeducators than special education teachers in the public school system, but also because they are with students throughout the entire school day, including in special education and general education classrooms, Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Paraeducators are recognized by many states as essential to the K-12 classroom. And for some, like Lemons, the Stanford professor, the idea of paraeducators in the classroom is promising. This is not only because there are more paraeducators than special education teachers in the public school system, but also because they are with students throughout the entire school day, including in special education and general education classrooms, Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the U.S. paraeducators only need a high school diploma, and “in many districts, [paraeducators] receive the least amount of training, the least amount of support; they’re paid the least, but in many ways, they’re kind of the cog in the system that makes everything work, especially for kids with more extensive support needs,” Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the U.S. paraeducators only need a high school diploma, and “in many districts, [paraeducators] receive the least amount of training, the least amount of support; they’re paid the least, but in many ways, they’re kind of the cog in the system that makes everything work, especially for kids with more extensive support needs,” Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In Finland, conversations between special education teachers and general education teachers happen on a regular basis, and pedagogical approaches to addressing all student learning are shared.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Walker, the special education teacher who assisted in his Finnish classroom was seen as an “instructional coach who’s not at a higher level than the general ed teacher, but is still this trusted colleague … who has specialized knowledge in assisting kids who need more support in the classroom.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For Walker, the special education teacher who assisted in his Finnish classroom was seen as an “instructional coach who’s not at a higher level than the general ed teacher, but is still this trusted colleague … who has specialized knowledge in assisting kids who need more support in the classroom.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A second set of discerning eyes can go a long way. Knowing that he wasn’t alone in providing attentive and individualized instruction for students with IEPs or those who needed a little bit of extra help with a specific subject matter was a relief to Walker. This practice of part-time, in-classroom special education instruction also allowed for Walker to exercise intellectual humility. He acknowledged that the special education teacher’s presence in his classroom two times per week exposed growth areas to better meet student needs, a ritual that he welcomed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A second set of discerning eyes can go a long way. Knowing that he wasn’t alone in providing attentive and individualized instruction for students with IEPs or those who needed a little bit of extra help with a specific subject matter was a relief to Walker. This practice of part-time, in-classroom special education instruction also allowed for Walker to exercise intellectual humility. He acknowledged that the special education teacher’s presence in his classroom two times per week exposed growth areas to better meet student needs, a ritual that he welcomed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“For a lot of teachers out there, especially in the United States — when they don’t have this type of [inclusive] model — it’s very easy for you to feel alone in your classroom,” Walker said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>These types of experiences have roots in teacher training programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the U.S., “typically, teachers who are trained to be general education teachers receive way too little training related to supporting kids with disabilities,” said Lemons, pointing out that some graduate schools of education, like Stanford’s, offer only one course focused on students with disabilities to elementary teacher candidates. On top of that, he said there’s almost zero training on how general education teachers can build effective working relationships with special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the U.S., “typically, teachers who are trained to be general education teachers receive way too little training related to supporting kids with disabilities,” said Lemons, pointing out that some graduate schools of education, like Stanford’s, offer only one course focused on students with disabilities to elementary teacher candidates. On top of that, he said there’s almost zero training on how general education teachers can build effective working relationships with special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Even at Copper Island, where teachers are trained in differentiation, general education teachers have had some trepidation about approaching differentiated learning practices. But experts like Gervais are available and willing to work with general education teachers to adjust their lessons so that everyone can learn with their peers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Even at Copper Island, where teachers are trained in differentiation, general education teachers have had some trepidation about approaching differentiated learning practices. But experts like Gervais are available and willing to work with general education teachers to adjust their lessons so that everyone can learn with their peers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I told every one of them, ‘I will gladly show you because in special ed you learn to differentiate anything that’s thrown at you,’” Gervais said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I told every one of them, ‘I will gladly show you because in special ed you learn to differentiate anything that’s thrown at you,’” Gervais said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And offering to help general education teachers with differentiating their work also benefits other students outside of special education.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like schools in Finland, Copper Island prioritizes outdoor time for all students, which happens at a greater frequency than a typical U.S. school. This was one of the major draws for Dan and his family, and regular outdoor time during the school day has helped Oliver come out of his shell, connect with friends and focus in the classroom, Dan said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like schools in Finland, Copper Island prioritizes outdoor time for all students, which happens at a greater frequency than a typical U.S. school. This was one of the major draws for Dan and his family, and regular outdoor time during the school day has helped Oliver come out of his shell, connect with friends and focus in the classroom, Dan said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But time outside at this school doesn’t just happen during recess and lunch; it happens every 45 minutes for 15 minutes at a time. This is Copper Island’s version of “brain breaks” — a tried and true method of allowing for, typically, classroom time spent away from academic subjects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But time outside at this school doesn’t just happen during recess and lunch; it happens every 45 minutes for 15 minutes at a time. This is Copper Island’s version of “brain breaks” — a tried and true method of allowing for, typically, classroom time spent away from academic subjects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Brain breaks are used in both American and Finnish schools, but the way that Copper Island does brain breaks is different from most U.S. schools. Typically, brain breaks in American classrooms are occasional, very short, in-class and not necessarily physical.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Brain breaks are used in both American and Finnish schools, but the way that Copper Island does brain breaks is different from most U.S. schools. Typically, brain breaks in American classrooms are occasional, very short, in-class and not necessarily physical.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Brain breaks at Copper Island are always spent outside — rain or shine or snow — and they happen seamlessly at all grade levels. When the brain break begins, students walk quietly through the hallways and out into the schoolyard. Once the break is over, a whistle is blown, and the students quickly and quietly pile through the school’s back doors, returning to their classrooms with minimal prompting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Brain breaks at Copper Island are always spent outside — rain or shine or snow — and they happen seamlessly at all grade levels. When the brain break begins, students walk quietly through the hallways and out into the schoolyard. Once the break is over, a whistle is blown, and the students quickly and quietly pile through the school’s back doors, returning to their classrooms with minimal prompting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Usually, moments of transition like these are a stress point for teachers, who are tasked with managing energetic or even disengaged students itching to get away from the lesson plan, and then coaxing them back into the lesson plan. It might even be unfathomable to some teachers across the U.S. to get all students outside for a brain break and then settled and back into the classroom, all within 15 minutes, multiple times per day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Usually, moments of transition like these are a stress point for teachers, who are tasked with managing energetic or even disengaged students itching to get away from the lesson plan, and then coaxing them back into the lesson plan. It might even be unfathomable to some teachers across the U.S. to get all students outside for a brain break and then settled and back into the classroom, all within 15 minutes, multiple times per day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there wasn’t any yelling or running down hallways to get to a brain break at Copper Island when I visited. And when asked, teachers repeatedly brushed off any potential stress or anxiety around transitions in and out of brain breaks. It turns out these breaks aren’t just good for students, they’re good for the teachers too, who spend most of their classroom time executing highly engaged and individualized lesson plans for all of their students.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there wasn’t any yelling or running down hallways to get to a brain break at Copper Island when I visited. And when asked, teachers repeatedly brushed off any potential stress or anxiety around transitions in and out of brain breaks. It turns out these breaks aren’t just good for students, they’re good for the teachers too, who spend most of their classroom time executing highly engaged and individualized lesson plans for all of their students.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s only one rule during brain breaks at Copper Island Academy — sports balls aren’t allowed. “The minute that you give a sports ball to somebody, you put rules and limitations on [their play],” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s only one rule during brain breaks at Copper Island Academy — sports balls aren’t allowed. “The minute that you give a sports ball to somebody, you put rules and limitations on [their play],” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Instead, kids in elementary school are encouraged to play with each other and throughout the various outdoor spaces, like their play structure, the perimeter of surrounding woods, in the garden or on the structure made of industrial-sized rubber tires.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Calumet and the surrounding Houghton County area are a pocket of the U.S. that has preserved old town Americana charm, for better or for worse. Some people don’t lock their front doors, and they leave their keys in their cars when they are away, just in case someone needs to borrow them. The people are kind and welcoming, and very quick to recommend their claim to fame: the meat pasty. And Copper Island Academy reflects these unique traits.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Calumet and the surrounding Houghton County area are a pocket of the U.S. that has preserved old town Americana charm, for better or for worse. Some people don’t lock their front doors, and they leave their keys in their cars when they are away, just in case someone needs to borrow them. The people are kind and welcoming, and very quick to recommend their claim to fame: the meat pasty. And Copper Island Academy reflects these unique traits.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The families in the community had worried that the Finnish model in a location with such an overwhelmingly large population of people with Finnish heritage would be seen as exclusionary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The families in the community had worried that the Finnish model in a location with such an overwhelmingly large population of people with Finnish heritage would be seen as exclusionary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to Laho, the diversity at Copper Island Academy reflects that of the surrounding area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“So far we haven’t seen any discrepancies between, you know, one demographic or another,” Laho said about student academic achievement and behavioral data.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“So far we haven’t seen any discrepancies between, you know, one demographic or another,” Laho said about student academic achievement and behavioral data.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The school has also made a significant effort to support teachers beyond their professional development days with Walker and more than what you might find in an average American public school classroom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The school has also made a significant effort to support teachers beyond their professional development days with Walker and more than what you might find in an average American public school classroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Something fundamental took place during the pandemic, Walker said. In the scramble to overhaul in-person learning to virtual learning, along with the pressure to mitigate learning loss, teachers started to publicly acknowledge their dismal working conditions, Walker said. And American society took notice, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Something fundamental took place during the pandemic, Walker said. In the scramble to overhaul in-person learning to virtual learning, along with the pressure to mitigate learning loss, teachers started to publicly acknowledge their dismal working conditions, Walker said. And American society took notice, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There was something about COVID that broke many educators,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But paying attention to teacher well-being in a holistic manner at Copper Island has paid off. The school’s baby pilot program allows new mothers, who are only allotted 12 weeks of unpaid maternity leave by federal standards, to ease their way back into teaching full time again after having a baby. On certain days, babies are allowed in the classroom, and teachers meet their hours without having to choose continuous, outsourced child care for their infants.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But paying attention to teacher well-being in a holistic manner at Copper Island has paid off. The school’s baby pilot program allows new mothers, who are only allotted 12 weeks of unpaid maternity leave by federal standards, to ease their way back into teaching full time again after having a baby. On certain days, babies are allowed in the classroom, and teachers meet their hours without having to choose continuous, outsourced child care for their infants.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The teachers also created a support group they call “Tsemppiä,” a Finnish word that doesn’t have a direct translation, but one that Walker compared to terms like “godspeed” or “strength” and is used in Finland as a word of encouragement. And the Tsemppiä group at Copper Island does just that — it exists as a support group made by and for teachers experiencing difficulties in their personal lives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The teachers also created a support group they call “Tsemppiä,” a Finnish word that doesn’t have a direct translation, but one that Walker compared to terms like “godspeed” or “strength” and is used in Finland as a word of encouragement. And the Tsemppiä group at Copper Island does just that — it exists as a support group made by and for teachers experiencing difficulties in their personal lives.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although Tsemppiä was established before Walker came on as an educational consultant, he quickly recognized its purpose from his days teaching in Finland. The U.S. has a habit of creating and encouraging “super teachers,” Walker said — individuals who exceed, above and beyond, which harbors competition to be “the best.” In his experience, “super teachers” don’t really exist in Finland, Walker said, and instead there’s more of a spirit of teamwork and collaboration between teachers. The adoption of this part of Finnish culture is a big part of why Copper Island has been able to be so successful, Walker said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although Tsemppiä was established before Walker came on as an educational consultant, he quickly recognized its purpose from his days teaching in Finland. The U.S. has a habit of creating and encouraging “super teachers,” Walker said — individuals who exceed, above and beyond, which harbors competition to be “the best.” In his experience, “super teachers” don’t really exist in Finland, Walker said, and instead there’s more of a spirit of teamwork and collaboration between teachers. The adoption of this part of Finnish culture is a big part of why Copper Island has been able to be so successful, Walker said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Additionally, the administrators don’t seem to hover at Copper Island; rather, as Laho said, they trust their teachers to get their work done. If lesson planning needs to happen at home, then that works for the school administrators. If teachers need to leave the building with the students at 3:20 p.m. when the school day is over, that also works.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Additionally, the administrators don’t seem to hover at Copper Island; rather, as Laho said, they trust their teachers to get their work done. If lesson planning needs to happen at home, then that works for the school administrators. If teachers need to leave the building with the students at 3:20 p.m. when the school day is over, that also works.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy experiences the everyday limitations that many American schools and educators face. “I wish we could pay our teachers what they’re worth financially,” said Laho, adding that the school does “find ways to leverage what [they do] have to help” their teachers in other ways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy experiences the everyday limitations that many American schools and educators face. “I wish we could pay our teachers what they’re worth financially,” said Laho, adding that the school does “find ways to leverage what [they do] have to help” their teachers in other ways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We want to try to find ways to support the teachers in what they’re doing, knowing that we’re asking them to do a lot within our model,” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We want to try to find ways to support the teachers in what they’re doing, knowing that we’re asking them to do a lot within our model,” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184.png\" alt=\"Man smiling for portrait\" class=\"wp-image-66185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184.png 1262w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-160x205.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-768x985.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-1198x1536.png 1198w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy co-founder Matt Laho.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184.png\" alt=\"Man smiling for portrait\" class=\"wp-image-66185\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy co-founder Matt Laho.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As for students, the school has put into place measures to encourage their belonging in the community. Students are grouped intentionally in classrooms, which gives them the opportunity to work and play with the peers that they may not organically gravitate toward, Laho said. This practice of belonging and empathy extends throughout the school culture, both in the classroom, outdoors and in the community, Laho said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The Finnish education model shot to global prominence in 2001, but has since fallen. But the lessons of Finland still resonate with educators and parents, so much so that some U.S. schools are modeled with Finnish best practices. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Oliver, an only child, was born in 2018, and he and his parents don’t live near family. When the pandemic hit, “it was kinda like a perfect storm” during such an important time in early childhood development, said Dan, Oliver’s dad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oliver’s teachers noticed early on in preschool that he was having a hard time engaging with his peers and would keep to himself during group activities, Dan said. His parents initially brushed it off as shyness. “It really surprised us because we don’t see that at home at all,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as his teachers brought up their concerns, Dan and his wife, who weren’t familiar with the special education system, began to learn all about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They were prepared to send Oliver to the local public school for kindergarten. But when they found out about Copper Island Academy, they saw an opportunity for Oliver to experience a different type of school, one that reminded Dan of his own school experience, when class sizes were smaller and students connected with their peers and teachers beyond traditional academics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy is where “sisu” — a Finnish word describing an internal level of grit and perseverance — is paramount. It’s a K-8 charter school serving students and their families from the surrounding area of Calumet, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula. Tucked behind an EMS vehicle service center on the only road to and from the town’s one-room airport, you might never know that the school is there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6353911588\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1562\" height=\"1463\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983.jpg\" alt=\"A poster is displayed on a wall\" class=\"wp-image-66188\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983.jpg 1562w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-160x150.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-768x719.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_SISUacronymposter-1-scaled-e1773380265983-1536x1439.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1562px) 100vw, 1562px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A poster creating an acronym of the word “sisu” is on display at Copper Island Academy. (Marlena Jackson-Retondo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Launched in the fall of 2021, the school was developed by educator duo and married couple Matt and Nora Laho. But this isn’t just their brainchild. It was actualized in collaboration with community members and families searching for an answer to their concerns about public education — like increased screentime, a lack of joy in learning, less challenging lessons and dwindling extracurricular offerings — during the thick of the COVID-19 pandemic, Matt Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The parent community also wanted more skilled trades and culinary arts in the day-to-day curriculum, Laho said. For example, parents noted the slow decline in shop classes offered in public schools, so Copper Island made a concerted effort to bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group considered many education models, Laho said, including Montessori and hybrid models, but ultimately they landed on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/55006/the-teachers-role-in-finlands-phenomenon-based-learning\">Finnish education model\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Finnish education model is marked by teacher autonomy and collaboration, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/47909/how-kids-learn-better-by-taking-frequent-breaks-throughout-the-day\">frequent breaks\u003c/a>, inclusive practices and differentiation, according to \u003ca href=\"https://taughtbyfinland.com/\">Tim Walker\u003c/a>, Copper Island Academy’s Finnish education model consultant, who has written several books about \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Teach-Like-Finland/\">teaching in Finland\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers in Finland are highly respected professionals, and it’s difficult to obtain teaching credentials. Teachers are allotted ample time for planning and prep, and they’re expected to leave school at the end of the day alongside their students. In the U.S., teacher shortages are common, morale and teacher pay are low and planning and prep periods are painfully short.\u003c/p>\n\n\nCalumet and the surrounding area are home to the highest percentage of people of Finnish heritage outside of Finland itself. But that didn’t mean schools in the area operated like their cross-Atlantic counterparts. For the Lahos, the Finnish model represented what parents and families in the area wanted most out of their children’s education: hands-on classrooms, real-world life skills and a focus on joy.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s so great about Finland? \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early 2000s, Finland emerged as an unexpected global leader in education after the first Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) scores, published in 2001, ranked Finland number one among the 31 other participating countries. The U.S. showed middle-of-the-road academic scores and was ranked in the 15th spot that same year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2001, the Bush administration also reauthorized the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) and rolled out the No Child Left Behind Act in public schools across the country in 2002, so education reform was already top of mind in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the decade following the 2001 PISA scores, Finland continued to rank in the top three participating countries. Within that time, the U.S. was one of many countries that looked to Finland’s balanced approach to learning for guidance on pedagogical practices, which included differentiated learning and early intervention practices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But by the 2010s, Finland’s PISA scores began to fall, and the hype died down. And organizations like the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which administers the PISA exams, began to encourage schools to focus more on student well-being beyond academic success, said Walker, an American teacher who taught in Finland for more than 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the draw to a Finnish model still remains today in education circles, and for Copper Island Academy, it landed close to home.\u003c/p>\n\n\nAnd for parents like Dan, Copper Island had the added benefit of an inclusive special education program. He said enrolling Oliver at Copper Island Academy “was the best decision we possibly could have made.”\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Special education, the Finnish way\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Oliver has an Individualized Education Program (IEP), a highly detailed, legally binding document, requiring an official diagnosis. The family asked we not use their last name because of privacy concerns for their child. IEPs adjust the curriculum for an individual student in order to meet their goals. Part of Oliver’s education plan includes push-ins during general education classroom time with Jennifer Gervais, one of Copper Island Academy’s special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Push-ins are a form of support that keeps students in the classroom alongside their peers rather than in a siloed special education classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During a push-in on one of his more difficult mornings, Gervais sits next to Oliver and quietly prompts him to participate. The other students are used to her presence in their classroom and aren’t phased. Oliver’s responses are very quiet, but he does take part in a phonics lesson led by his teacher, Ms. Erva. And if you listen very carefully, you can hear his peers encouraging him with a “good job, Oliver,” after his turn to play the phonics game is over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2560\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_JenGervais_headshot-e1773379859400.png\" alt=\"Woman in front of window\" class=\"wp-image-66186\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy teacher Jennifer Gervais. (Marlena Jackson-Retondo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although Oliver’s experience at Copper Island Academy has been positive, many students struggle to get the services they need.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cgg/students-with-disabilities#:~:text=In%202022%E2%80%9323%2C%20the%20number,of%20all%20public%20school%20students.\">7.5 million students\u003c/a> receiving special education services in the U.S. — the majority of whom are diagnosed with \u003ca href=\"https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/specific-learning-disorder/what-is-specific-learning-disorder\">specific learning disorders\u003c/a> like dyslexia, dysgraphia or dyscalculia. Even for those students who are identified as needing to receive special education services early on, the path to receiving these supports is hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most often in the U.S., students must exhaust Tier 1 and Tier 2 support services, which consist of specialized, small group instruction from a general education teacher, specialists or paraeducators, before receiving an IEP — a Tier 3 special education service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the special education system in Finland is marked by teacher and family collaboration, personalized learning and trust in teacher expertise; special education intervention in Finland is seen as a preventative and inclusive practice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Everybody’s getting support,” said Helmi Betancourt, an elementary special education teacher in Helsinki, Finland. Like many special education teachers in Finland, Betancourt is assigned to many different classrooms. Throughout the week, she spends a couple of hours in each of her assigned classrooms teaching alongside the general education teacher. If there is an individual student or smaller group of students who need extra help outside of their general education classroom, Betancourt has the flexibility to pull them into a separate learning environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The decision to support a student with special education resources is seen as a pedagogical one, and is accessible for any student in the classroom who is struggling with academic or behavioral issues, according to Betancourt and her colleague in special education, Anna-Mari Vuohelainen. Teachers are free to make these decisions without the explicit consent of parents and without waiting for a diagnosis for additional support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s based on the benefit of the child,” not on a diagnosis, Betancourt said. They use a classroom-based support system to be more inclusive of special education students in their general education classrooms, and to make sure that other students who are not yet receiving support, but might need it, get it as early as possible. This also makes for less paperwork.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The idea is that nobody has to wait for the support that they need,” said Betancourt, because sometimes, getting a diagnosis takes a long time and it’s unfair to a student if they can’t get support for years. And the students identified as having the most intensive needs receive them in a setting that makes the most sense for their needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\nBut there isn’t necessarily a one-to-one application of the Finnish education model to the U.S. special education system.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Early intervention and measuring student growth\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Early intervention is one of the hallmarks of the Finnish education model, and is one that Copper Island has emulated. According to Laho, early intervention allows Copper Island to tackle problems as they emerge and before a formal special education referral needs to be placed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In order to identify student needs, teachers across departments regularly meet to hold student success meetings. These meetings occur outside of traditional IEP or special education meeting requirements, and all students are considered. This is where they identify students who are struggling, collaborate on how to help the student and regularly check in. Student success meetings often happen before parent involvement, and if the plan to remediate doesn’t work, then they might have to call a parent in to work out a more robust support plan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special education teachers attend student success meetings, but not necessarily to provide special education services. They’re there because of their expertise in Tier 2 and Tier 3 intervention. It’s a seemingly small distinction to make, but a rather important one that advances a culture of trust and respect in educators who are highly regarded for their pedagogical expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The success of these meetings is measured in individual student growth, not achievement. The teachers and admin focus on answering questions like: Where did this student start the year? Where are they mid-year, and where did they end the year? And according to Laho, student growth is the most useful measurement that Copper Island tracks, and they do so without compromising measurable achievement.\u003c/p>\n\n\nStudents at Copper Island Academy score very high on traditional indicators of student achievement. Most notably, they received a score of 99.03 in the 2024-25 Michigan School Index — a state-run public school accountability system that evaluates overall school achievement on a scale of 0-100 — placing the school in the top 3.5% of all Michigan public schools.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Inclusion first for special education students \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>The school’s unwavering stance on inclusion of all students in general education classrooms was a big deal for Gervais.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In other schools throughout her experience in special education, which spans more than a decade, Gervais has had to fight to get special education students included in the general education classroom, she said. Self-contained special education support is not an uncommon practice in public schools across the U.S., in which students receiving differing levels of special education support are kept from their general education peers for much of the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although some level of inclusion in general education classrooms is a North Star for special education in the U.S. public school system, it isn’t always possible or recommended for every student. The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act does not have a number or percentage of general education classroom time that each student with an IEP is required to meet. Rather, inclusion is measured by Least Restrictive Environment practices. But across special education, the measurable benchmark for “good” general education classroom integration time per student hovers around \u003ca href=\"https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=59\">80%\u003c/a>, although classroom time alone doesn’t automatically lead to improved outcomes, said Chris Lemons, a professor who specializes in learning disabilities at Stanford University’s Graduate School of Education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Special education teaching presents its own unique challenges, but according to Jeremy Jarvi, who has taught in self-contained, mild-to-moderate and moderate-to-severe special education classrooms in the Bay Area, the prominent issues that come to mind are systemic and bureaucratic in nature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We can’t force it,” said Jarvi, of inclusion in all cases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For parents like \u003ca href=\"http://www.danielwillingham.com/\">Daniel Willingham\u003c/a> and his wife, navigating the special education system for their daughter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-willingham-how-to-interact-with-a-disabled-child-20180322-story.html\">Esprit\u003c/a>, over a decade ago was challenging and frustrating. Willingham is an education expert, and his wife is a teacher, but even then, it took a lot of time and expertise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To be clear, my child was profoundly disabled and so education for her looked quite different,” Willingham said. “It’s not like she was having trouble reading … she couldn’t speak.” So education for Esprit looked like setting up systems for her to be able to communicate “yes” and “no,” and inclusion in a general education classroom wasn’t possible or the best option for her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although Esprit’s medical conditions required in-home care and schooling, Willingham and his family experienced many of the common failures and triumphs of the U.S. special education system. They dealt with the frustration that comes with “tangling with bureaucracy,” but also benefited from interactions with educators and therapists who were “working very, very hard under very difficult circumstances trying to help children,” Willingham said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n“We frequently marveled that anyone was able to navigate through this system,” especially families without a stay-at-home parent, Willingham said.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Paraeducators and classroom staffing\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Classroom staffing can be an issue, according to Jarvi, and at previous schools he found himself spending a lot of time each week training paraeducators.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“On top of working with the kids, I’m training adults … you hope that they get it the first time,” but they don’t always, and this takes time away from individualized instruction, Jarvi said of his past experiences. He now works with experienced paraeducators who have made a big difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paraeducators are recognized by many states as essential to the K-12 classroom. And for some, like Lemons, the Stanford professor, the idea of paraeducators in the classroom is promising. This is not only because there are more paraeducators than special education teachers in the public school system, but also because they are with students throughout the entire school day, including in special education and general education classrooms, Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the U.S. paraeducators only need a high school diploma, and “in many districts, [paraeducators] receive the least amount of training, the least amount of support; they’re paid the least, but in many ways, they’re kind of the cog in the system that makes everything work, especially for kids with more extensive support needs,” Lemons said.\u003c/p>\n\n\nSo far, Copper Island has had a positive experience with their paraeducators because of their willingness to go through the extra training and credentialing that the school requires outside of Michigan’s academic standards, according to Laho. The school’s paraeducators are trained on Orton-Gillingham or Morphology, which are touted for their detailed and unique approach to literacy education, especially for students who struggle. Laho said having paraeducators trained in these two methods allows for flexibility “to use multiple different people to attack a problem.”\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Trust in special education teachers\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>In Finland, conversations between special education teachers and general education teachers happen on a regular basis, and pedagogical approaches to addressing all student learning are shared.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Walker, the special education teacher who assisted in his Finnish classroom was seen as an “instructional coach who’s not at a higher level than the general ed teacher, but is still this trusted colleague … who has specialized knowledge in assisting kids who need more support in the classroom.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A second set of discerning eyes can go a long way. Knowing that he wasn’t alone in providing attentive and individualized instruction for students with IEPs or those who needed a little bit of extra help with a specific subject matter was a relief to Walker. This practice of part-time, in-classroom special education instruction also allowed for Walker to exercise intellectual humility. He acknowledged that the special education teacher’s presence in his classroom two times per week exposed growth areas to better meet student needs, a ritual that he welcomed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“For a lot of teachers out there, especially in the United States — when they don’t have this type of [inclusive] model — it’s very easy for you to feel alone in your classroom,” Walker said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These types of experiences have roots in teacher training programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the U.S., “typically, teachers who are trained to be general education teachers receive way too little training related to supporting kids with disabilities,” said Lemons, pointing out that some graduate schools of education, like Stanford’s, offer only one course focused on students with disabilities to elementary teacher candidates. On top of that, he said there’s almost zero training on how general education teachers can build effective working relationships with special education teachers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even at Copper Island, where teachers are trained in differentiation, general education teachers have had some trepidation about approaching differentiated learning practices. But experts like Gervais are available and willing to work with general education teachers to adjust their lessons so that everyone can learn with their peers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I told every one of them, ‘I will gladly show you because in special ed you learn to differentiate anything that’s thrown at you,’” Gervais said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And offering to help general education teachers with differentiating their work also benefits other students outside of special education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n“We don’t just teach to that middle student. It helps everybody,” Gervais said.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Brain breaks for everyone, outside\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Like schools in Finland, Copper Island prioritizes outdoor time for all students, which happens at a greater frequency than a typical U.S. school. This was one of the major draws for Dan and his family, and regular outdoor time during the school day has helped Oliver come out of his shell, connect with friends and focus in the classroom, Dan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But time outside at this school doesn’t just happen during recess and lunch; it happens every 45 minutes for 15 minutes at a time. This is Copper Island’s version of “brain breaks” — a tried and true method of allowing for, typically, classroom time spent away from academic subjects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brain breaks are used in both American and Finnish schools, but the way that Copper Island does brain breaks is different from most U.S. schools. Typically, brain breaks in American classrooms are occasional, very short, in-class and not necessarily physical.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brain breaks at Copper Island are always spent outside — rain or shine or snow — and they happen seamlessly at all grade levels. When the brain break begins, students walk quietly through the hallways and out into the schoolyard. Once the break is over, a whistle is blown, and the students quickly and quietly pile through the school’s back doors, returning to their classrooms with minimal prompting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Usually, moments of transition like these are a stress point for teachers, who are tasked with managing energetic or even disengaged students itching to get away from the lesson plan, and then coaxing them back into the lesson plan. It might even be unfathomable to some teachers across the U.S. to get all students outside for a brain break and then settled and back into the classroom, all within 15 minutes, multiple times per day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there wasn’t any yelling or running down hallways to get to a brain break at Copper Island when I visited. And when asked, teachers repeatedly brushed off any potential stress or anxiety around transitions in and out of brain breaks. It turns out these breaks aren’t just good for students, they’re good for the teachers too, who spend most of their classroom time executing highly engaged and individualized lesson plans for all of their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/edvF_AJXU5I'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/edvF_AJXU5I'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s only one rule during brain breaks at Copper Island Academy — sports balls aren’t allowed. “The minute that you give a sports ball to somebody, you put rules and limitations on [their play],” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Instead, kids in elementary school are encouraged to play with each other and throughout the various outdoor spaces, like their play structure, the perimeter of surrounding woods, in the garden or on the structure made of industrial-sized rubber tires.\u003c/p>\n\n\nSports balls are reintroduced during brain breaks for middle schoolers, who Laho said might need additional motivation to move their bodies and spend time outdoors.\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Can Copper Island be replicated? It depends\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\u003cp>Calumet and the surrounding Houghton County area are a pocket of the U.S. that has preserved old town Americana charm, for better or for worse. Some people don’t lock their front doors, and they leave their keys in their cars when they are away, just in case someone needs to borrow them. The people are kind and welcoming, and very quick to recommend their claim to fame: the meat pasty. And Copper Island Academy reflects these unique traits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The families in the community had worried that the Finnish model in a location with such an overwhelmingly large population of people with Finnish heritage would be seen as exclusionary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to Laho, the diversity at Copper Island Academy reflects that of the surrounding area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So far we haven’t seen any discrepancies between, you know, one demographic or another,” Laho said about student academic achievement and behavioral data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school has also made a significant effort to support teachers beyond their professional development days with Walker and more than what you might find in an average American public school classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Something fundamental took place during the pandemic, Walker said. In the scramble to overhaul in-person learning to virtual learning, along with the pressure to mitigate learning loss, teachers started to publicly acknowledge their dismal working conditions, Walker said. And American society took notice, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There was something about COVID that broke many educators,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But paying attention to teacher well-being in a holistic manner at Copper Island has paid off. The school’s baby pilot program allows new mothers, who are only allotted 12 weeks of unpaid maternity leave by federal standards, to ease their way back into teaching full time again after having a baby. On certain days, babies are allowed in the classroom, and teachers meet their hours without having to choose continuous, outsourced child care for their infants.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The teachers also created a support group they call “Tsemppiä,” a Finnish word that doesn’t have a direct translation, but one that Walker compared to terms like “godspeed” or “strength” and is used in Finland as a word of encouragement. And the Tsemppiä group at Copper Island does just that — it exists as a support group made by and for teachers experiencing difficulties in their personal lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although Tsemppiä was established before Walker came on as an educational consultant, he quickly recognized its purpose from his days teaching in Finland. The U.S. has a habit of creating and encouraging “super teachers,” Walker said — individuals who exceed, above and beyond, which harbors competition to be “the best.” In his experience, “super teachers” don’t really exist in Finland, Walker said, and instead there’s more of a spirit of teamwork and collaboration between teachers. The adoption of this part of Finnish culture is a big part of why Copper Island has been able to be so successful, Walker said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Additionally, the administrators don’t seem to hover at Copper Island; rather, as Laho said, they trust their teachers to get their work done. If lesson planning needs to happen at home, then that works for the school administrators. If teachers need to leave the building with the students at 3:20 p.m. when the school day is over, that also works.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Copper Island Academy experiences the everyday limitations that many American schools and educators face. “I wish we could pay our teachers what they’re worth financially,” said Laho, adding that the school does “find ways to leverage what [they do] have to help” their teachers in other ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We want to try to find ways to support the teachers in what they’re doing, knowing that we’re asking them to do a lot within our model,” Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1262\" height=\"1618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184.png\" alt=\"Man smiling for portrait\" class=\"wp-image-66185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184.png 1262w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-160x205.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-768x985.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/03/MS_CIA_MattLaho_headshot2-e1773379757184-1198x1536.png 1198w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1262px) 100vw, 1262px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Copper Island Academy co-founder Matt Laho. (Marlena Jackson-Retondo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As for students, the school has put into place measures to encourage their belonging in the community. Students are grouped intentionally in classrooms, which gives them the opportunity to work and play with the peers that they may not organically gravitate toward, Laho said. This practice of belonging and empathy extends throughout the school culture, both in the classroom, outdoors and in the community, Laho said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when Dan is out in the neighborhood with his son, or at a local hockey game, all of the hard work that Oliver and his teachers have done to face challenging social situations has paid off. Now, when Oliver sees someone familiar outside of school, “[he] always points out, ‘Hey, there’s my friend from school’ or ‘there’s my teacher,’” Dan said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He described enrolling Oliver in Copper Island as one of the best decisions he’s recently made and is glad he did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that connection between the students and the students and their and their teachers is really great,” he said. “Really, really great.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-audio\">\u003caudio controls src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6353911588\">\u003c/audio>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent years, public interest in school boards has dropped, and what we do hear about usually has to do with a meeting gone rogue. And voter turnout for school board elections remains really low at an average of about 10 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott R. Levy, a lecturer at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, argues that this is an issue worth paying attention to because restoring power to school boards would hold the answer to public education reform and create true positive change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levy spent the first 20 years of his professional career as an investment banker, but he left his job on Wall Street after volunteering at his kids’ public school. That’s where he fell in love with the world of school governance. In 2015 he won his first elected seat on a school board, a seat that he held for the next 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode we discuss his new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262552721/why-school-boards-matter/\">Why School Boards Matter: Reclaiming The Heart of American Education and Democracy.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5042213997\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So just to get us launched into the topic, can you give me a brief and basic explanation of the configuration and function of a school board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Sure. So think of the board as a governance body. The board is not supposed to be running the schools day to day. Anytime you see a board member as a person running the school day to day, that’s a problem. They’re there to oversee budget allocation and to think about policy and think about strategic priorities and to ultimately choose a superintendent and then manage the superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s safe to say that there are very few people that are doing school board service for the money because it really is a labor of love. Board members come from all walks of life. There’s really no requirements per se, other than you have to be 18 years old in most places. You have to be a citizen and be able to vote and you have to certainly have residency in that community. So there are some restrictions, but otherwise it’s open to anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to have a student in the public schools. It could be that their kids attend private school. There aren’t rules around that. And so it’s really meant to be little “d” democracy. It’s whoever the public believes should be in that seat. In a school board, you really don’t have power over who’s serving with you. It’s decided by the public as it should be through the voting process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You state in the introduction of your book that school boards are the vital organ for education decision making. Why do you think that there seems to be this broad lack of awareness or misunderstanding about how a school board might serve the public?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ll tell you a story about when I first won my local election and became a school board member. I was walking down the street in my town and I got stopped by somebody that I knew. And they came up to me and they said, “Oh, congratulations, Scott. I heard you won the school board race. And that’s great because I’m going to be watching you on the web because, you know, the meetings are streamed so that any citizen can watch the meetings.” And I was really excited. I’m like, “wow, somebody actually watches these meetings.” And then he went on to say, yeah, yeah. I’ve been having trouble falling asleep. And so it’s super helpful to watch these meetings, because they’re really boring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many board meetings are somewhat routine. And that may be why there’s not a lot of attention on it. You’re going through budget line items, and it’s very technical. But I think, certainly, things changed in 2020 when COVID hit. And there were a lot of extremely important decisions that had to be made, and they had to be made very quickly. And they were decisions that there was a lot of attention over. And so the spotlight started to shine on school board rooms where a lot of these debates were happening. And then ever since 2020, there have been this constant stream of issues that have been adjudicated in boardrooms that have gotten a lot of attention.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think now people have more awareness, but having said that, people are, I think, generally focused on the clips that we may see on social media that sometimes have millions of hits where there’s arguments and they’re talking about really contentious cultural issues that divide us. But at the end of the day, if you walk into most school board meetings, whether it’s policy, budget. High level curriculum decisions, you’re focusing on various programs and initiatives. That’s what most of the discussion will be about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s the gist that I get. I’ve seen those viral moments online, but when I have clicked into a live stream of a school board meeting, it is probably what most might say is a mundane meeting of a couple folks in the room trying to make decisions. Maybe a couple people show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s only recent, and when I say recent, recent in American history that school boards have lost some of their power, sometimes due to school reform policy. Can you explain some of that historical significance of this loss of power and where the power that school boards used to hold has now been delegated to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s so interesting when you look back to early American history, school boards existed and they did absolutely everything. The states would ultimately have power to be responsible for public education, but they delegated authority to school boards to not only govern the schools, but even do the administration work because back in early days there was not even a superintendency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now in the days that we’ve seen of the 21st century, to your point, there’s been an incredible shift of power to states, mostly, and to some extent, the federal government. And there’s some really good and legitimate reasons for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Think about Brown versus Board of Education, where from a civil rights perspective, the federal judiciary decided to step in and make things right because it wasn’t happening correctly at the local level and there was inequity. Think about the way schools are funded, which historically was property taxes, where in many states there were communities that just simply could not fund the public schools to any sort of a basic level. So in many respects, there were a series of lawsuits that came about that really, you know, demanded that the state step in and be that equilibrating mechanism to fund schools to a level where students are getting a very appropriate public education, regardless of where they live. And so there are a lot of good reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are also probably some more sinister reasons. Education is a very large component of our economy. People care deeply about education. It affects a lot of families. And so certainly governors, legislators at the state level and at the federal level, look at that and say, ooh, maybe I should also be charged with having a role in education. So a lot the power has shifted to state and federal players. So I think we all need to step back and think about the fact of whether or not we agree with the particular approach any state is taking. Is that the right mechanism to have all that happen at the state level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I also just wanted to ask you very quickly about the power that school boards hold after the dismantling of the Department of Education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>I think there’s been a general sense that when certainly the current administration, the Trump administration, they were campaigning, they’re campaigning on pushing a lot of power back to states and localities, which in many respects would be commensurate with my thesis of how local districts should have a degree of autonomy. And boards are really important and can do a lot of good in trying to steer American education in a positive direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think what we’ve certainly seen over the last bunch of months is a continuation of the fact that the federal government is quite involved. So regardless of what we hear about the Department of Education shrinking or potentially being abolished, we’ve seen examples of where the federal government has certainly exerted power in places that they see something they don’t like. And I think that’s what we’ve seen in many administrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> I wanted to ask about education reform policy and some of the tensions that we see between these big reforms that might happen, one that just always sticks in my mind as common core. What would you say to someone, and I’m talking about voters, who believe that reform policy is the way forward and have kind of lost faith in the school board as an institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>The first thing I would say is that school boards are far from perfect. And there are many boards that certainly make decisions that many of us may look at and say are flawed. And I think there’s no perfect system to govern schools. Having said all that, I think in my mind, school boards are the place where governance can happen in a way that involves the community. And also provides a deep understanding of the district itself, because school boards are part of the districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, districts are very different in this country and they don’t have the same problems. You may have a district that has enrollment that’s dramatically increasing. You may have a district next door that has declining enrollment. That means incredibly different things in terms of how to manage a budget, how to manage operations, how to manage personnel. You could have a district in the same county that is in the 99th percentile in academic outcomes but has a stress and anxiety issue in their high school. And then the district next door might be below proficiency in math and reading. And you need to think about solutions that are very different in those two schools. And it’s extremely hard, I think, to come up with good one-size-fits-all policies that are gonna solve all our problems. And if you do, inevitably, you’re going to hit a roadblock.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the local communities aren’t vested in these programs, in these policies, and we see time and time again, Common Core being an example where it backfires. Because I think it’s so important to have people on the ground that are going to be affected be part of the process to come up with, ultimately, the solutions. And so that’s why I keep coming back to the fact that with all of its flaws, school boards are places that I think we should invest in. So if we started to focus our reform attention there, I actually think we could do a lot of good. And the funny thing is that reformers have looked at every place in the universe except for school boards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You brought up something that kind of reminded me of a huge issue that I hear from, and I think a lot of people have heard from educators when it comes to education reform policy is that the experts who are the teachers in the classroom are not being consulted for these massive changes, or they are not been consulted in the ways that, you know, I think most of them would feel is appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about the partnership that teachers and educators might have with school boards on the granular level where teachers don’t have to remain in this frustrated state of not seeing any change or not seeing any trust in their expertise or professionalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Yes. And I will start by saying that my mom was a kindergarten teacher in public school for over 30 years and I talked to her a lot about what her experience was like when I first became a school board member and ever since then I’ve looked at a lot of the research on teacher attrition and teacher satisfaction which should trouble all of us because the numbers are as we know not what they should be for a profession that’s so noble and and so important. And I think that one of the things that always comes out of studies that are done is the lack of autonomy that teachers feel, to your point, that their expertise isn’t valued, that they don’t have a say over what they’re doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of things that I talk about in my book is initiative fatigue. And it’s something that I always knew about because corporations have initiative fatigue, but when I got to education and my mom told me about this, I realized it was at a different level. And by the time you get to a classroom, if you think about all of the people that throw initiatives at schools, you have federal initiatives, you have state legislative initiatives, you have governors that come in with initiatives, every state has of course a regulatory body, a state school board in New York State and California, we have the regions, and they have initiatives. Then you have board members and the board as a whole that have initiatives, you have administrators at the centralized level, and then of course you have building administrators. And so that’s true. It’s very suffocating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so one of the things I talk about is how, again, if we try to be mindful of getting a better balance between state, federal, and local control, where the local governance entity does have more say over initiative flow, and then you had boards that were thoughtful about having a reasonable number of initiatives at any one time, I think naturally what’s gonna happen is that teachers have a better voice. Because a good board knows that board members are not professional educators and boards have to listen to administrators and teachers in their district. When decisions are made up above, it’s incredibly hard. You might have a committee of a teacher from here and a teacher from there, but we know that it’s not a grassroots effort when a decision’s made at a state or even a national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what it takes to establish and maintain that relationship between local teachers and the school board? What does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>With teachers in particular, if you think about it, boards often have committees, and committees might have representation of teachers and of administrators from different buildings. That’s one way that there could be a really good dialog. There’s often groups like, for instance, the PTA, where you’ll have teachers, and you’ll have parents together, and board members can be a liaison to that group or present, and update on what’s going on at the district level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In many districts, there’s a tradition of board members visiting schools once a year. So you get to maybe go into a classroom and see what’s going on. You would never do that every day, but to do that, to get a sense and a flavor for what’s happening in classrooms, that’s an amazing way to do it as well. Some districts have maybe the board president address teachers once a year. And that’s a really interesting and helpful way, I think also to build a relationship. So there are many ways and it’s important. It’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>So we just talked about partnership between educators and school boards, and you do say in your book that school boards are a mechanism for parent influence. Can you explain that mechanism, what that might look like coming from a parent who has maybe never voted in a local election, seeing an issue with their school and then becoming involved? What does that pathway look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So one of the things that I did, which I think was the most fun when I was researching for the book was I went back into the archives and I did ask the question, it seems like there are so many scenes around the country of very angry parents really yelling and screaming at school boards, has it always been this way or is this something new? And there’s no doubt what I found when you look back is that there have always been points in history where you’ve seen parent anger come out. And I think there’s a very natural question that underlies all of these battles, which is where is the line between parent rights and government control? And I do think that sometimes we’re very quick to either dismiss or to re-emphasize some parent point that is being espoused. But all of us, if we sat in the room and we polled 10 of us, let’s say, and we said, okay, where is that line? We might delineate that line at a slightly different point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you go back to the early 1900s, and I do this in my book, and it’s quite extraordinary, you could see the same exact language being used by parents at school board meetings saying, you can’t vaccinate my kids. If you vaccinate, my kids, you’re violating my rights and their rights, and you’re evaluating my constitutional rights. And they were doing that over the smallpox vaccine. And during COVID, we saw the same thing around the COVID vaccine. And that’s just one example. And so throughout American history, we’ve had this tension. So I think it’s very natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the other bit of tension is indoctrination versus education. Where is that line? And so I think we just have to have a little bit of grace in a way. And I think, the best we could do is say that sometimes people are going to be disagreeing on these subjects. And how do we want to resolve them? I think there’s no better way than with full transparency. In your local community. I think the other piece of your question, though, is if I’m a parent and I’m angry about something, what do I do? Start out, if it’s an issue in a classroom, with the teacher. Go to the teacher, have a conversation, and if that doesn’t work and you’re not satisfied, of course you have the right to talk to the principal or talk to the assistant principal. And if you’re still very unsatisfied, then you can bring it up, but you really don’t want to jump to the school board over the backs of many teachers, administrators that then will not have a chance to solve that problem with you first. If it’s an issue about, let’s say policy or budget allocation that clearly falls in the realm of the board, then of course, um, you have every right to go to the board, but you can also call a board member. If you see a board member at a soccer match or in church, you can certainly have discussions about things that are on your mind and air them, and then of course you have that right to be part of the public comment period too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the other thing that I would also add which is I think something that you always have to think about when you’re a school board member is If somebody comes to public comment and they express concern about a particular issue You always want to listen. It’s incredibly important to listen and to decide, um, you know whether you understand that viewpoint whether you agree with that viewpoint or not, but you don’t know for sure whether or not that viewpoint is 1% of your community or whether it represents 65% of your community. And I just believe that you have to be in touch with your community in lots of different ways and just have lots of data points so that you do get a sense of what the sentiment is like out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Also, speaking of parent influence, we’ve seen a lot of what I think would have been referred to as fringe movements of charter schools and homeschooling. We’re seeing that become a lot more mainstream, not just to talk about, but to practice. And obviously, the system of charter schools is becoming heavily influenced by school systems and there is a relationship between school boards. Charter schools, and also homeschooling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So can you kind of explain some of the influence or partnership that school boards have on those types of systems, and what people and voters can pay attention to when it comes to those educational practices?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Particularly with charter schools, the rules are different depending on what state you’re in. And sometimes school boards have a very influential role in whether or not a charter school can exist. And in other cases, the school board may have absolutely no power and no say. And really what happens is the charter decision is made more centrally at the state level by maybe the state board or one of the state entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I also think that there are a lot of interesting implications when you think about this long term. And I’ll give you one case study that happened in New York that I think could be an interesting microcosm of the situation that can happen in other parts of the country if you fast forward 10, 20 years from now and school choice and vouchers become more commonplace. And it’s actually a district that I attended when I was a kid and now is governed by board, the majority of whom send their kids to private school and it’s created an incredibly complex situation where there is a tremendous rift and rift is an understatement between the public school community and the private school community around the way the public district is being managed. On the one hand these are people that pay taxes and they have every right to, you know, run for school board and they’re winning the elections fair and square. On the other hand, you have individuals that are making decisions about a public school system, where many in the public school community argue are not in the best interest of public school students. And so there’s just incredible amounts of tension. And so you can see this being something that could happen in many communities down the road, if we have many, many more students that are not in the public system, and you might have the preponderance of voters that are in the not public system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanted to end on something that maybe is a little bit uplifting and positive and what you hope to see. Who should care about school boards or how should they care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So to end on a positive note, I think that one thing that I would think that all listeners may agree with is that when we look at our national politics, regardless of what side you’re on, I think it is clear that we have more polarization than we’ve ever had in recent history. And I do believe that when we look at local school districts, the reason that everybody should care is because they are a mechanism to potentially reduce polarization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the one hand, I know we see these scenes of people fighting in boardrooms here, like, how could they reduce polarization? It looks like boardrooms are incredibly polarized. But I would contend that they are the one place where people that have differences of opinion actually come together in person. And because everything is transparent and because local community members have a voice at the microphone, people can actually express their view. And if that view is diametrically different, others have to listen. And there is something incredibly American about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think that there’s this healing process in the fact that we can unify around what happens in a school board room, which is that people of all walks of life that have very different political beliefs can come express their view and have to be listened to. And maybe, just maybe we can realize that sometimes people with very opposing views from a policy perspective might be both coming from a good place, it’s just different places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This does seem like a giant lesson in civics. I really appreciate your time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s my pleasure being with you.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent years, public interest in school boards has dropped, and what we do hear about usually has to do with a meeting gone rogue. And voter turnout for school board elections remains really low at an average of about 10 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott R. Levy, a lecturer at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, argues that this is an issue worth paying attention to because restoring power to school boards would hold the answer to public education reform and create true positive change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levy spent the first 20 years of his professional career as an investment banker, but he left his job on Wall Street after volunteering at his kids’ public school. That’s where he fell in love with the world of school governance. In 2015 he won his first elected seat on a school board, a seat that he held for the next 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode we discuss his new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262552721/why-school-boards-matter/\">Why School Boards Matter: Reclaiming The Heart of American Education and Democracy.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5042213997\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So just to get us launched into the topic, can you give me a brief and basic explanation of the configuration and function of a school board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Sure. So think of the board as a governance body. The board is not supposed to be running the schools day to day. Anytime you see a board member as a person running the school day to day, that’s a problem. They’re there to oversee budget allocation and to think about policy and think about strategic priorities and to ultimately choose a superintendent and then manage the superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s safe to say that there are very few people that are doing school board service for the money because it really is a labor of love. Board members come from all walks of life. There’s really no requirements per se, other than you have to be 18 years old in most places. You have to be a citizen and be able to vote and you have to certainly have residency in that community. So there are some restrictions, but otherwise it’s open to anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to have a student in the public schools. It could be that their kids attend private school. There aren’t rules around that. And so it’s really meant to be little “d” democracy. It’s whoever the public believes should be in that seat. In a school board, you really don’t have power over who’s serving with you. It’s decided by the public as it should be through the voting process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You state in the introduction of your book that school boards are the vital organ for education decision making. Why do you think that there seems to be this broad lack of awareness or misunderstanding about how a school board might serve the public?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ll tell you a story about when I first won my local election and became a school board member. I was walking down the street in my town and I got stopped by somebody that I knew. And they came up to me and they said, “Oh, congratulations, Scott. I heard you won the school board race. And that’s great because I’m going to be watching you on the web because, you know, the meetings are streamed so that any citizen can watch the meetings.” And I was really excited. I’m like, “wow, somebody actually watches these meetings.” And then he went on to say, yeah, yeah. I’ve been having trouble falling asleep. And so it’s super helpful to watch these meetings, because they’re really boring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many board meetings are somewhat routine. And that may be why there’s not a lot of attention on it. You’re going through budget line items, and it’s very technical. But I think, certainly, things changed in 2020 when COVID hit. And there were a lot of extremely important decisions that had to be made, and they had to be made very quickly. And they were decisions that there was a lot of attention over. And so the spotlight started to shine on school board rooms where a lot of these debates were happening. And then ever since 2020, there have been this constant stream of issues that have been adjudicated in boardrooms that have gotten a lot of attention.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think now people have more awareness, but having said that, people are, I think, generally focused on the clips that we may see on social media that sometimes have millions of hits where there’s arguments and they’re talking about really contentious cultural issues that divide us. But at the end of the day, if you walk into most school board meetings, whether it’s policy, budget. High level curriculum decisions, you’re focusing on various programs and initiatives. That’s what most of the discussion will be about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s the gist that I get. I’ve seen those viral moments online, but when I have clicked into a live stream of a school board meeting, it is probably what most might say is a mundane meeting of a couple folks in the room trying to make decisions. Maybe a couple people show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s only recent, and when I say recent, recent in American history that school boards have lost some of their power, sometimes due to school reform policy. Can you explain some of that historical significance of this loss of power and where the power that school boards used to hold has now been delegated to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s so interesting when you look back to early American history, school boards existed and they did absolutely everything. The states would ultimately have power to be responsible for public education, but they delegated authority to school boards to not only govern the schools, but even do the administration work because back in early days there was not even a superintendency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now in the days that we’ve seen of the 21st century, to your point, there’s been an incredible shift of power to states, mostly, and to some extent, the federal government. And there’s some really good and legitimate reasons for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Think about Brown versus Board of Education, where from a civil rights perspective, the federal judiciary decided to step in and make things right because it wasn’t happening correctly at the local level and there was inequity. Think about the way schools are funded, which historically was property taxes, where in many states there were communities that just simply could not fund the public schools to any sort of a basic level. So in many respects, there were a series of lawsuits that came about that really, you know, demanded that the state step in and be that equilibrating mechanism to fund schools to a level where students are getting a very appropriate public education, regardless of where they live. And so there are a lot of good reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are also probably some more sinister reasons. Education is a very large component of our economy. People care deeply about education. It affects a lot of families. And so certainly governors, legislators at the state level and at the federal level, look at that and say, ooh, maybe I should also be charged with having a role in education. So a lot the power has shifted to state and federal players. So I think we all need to step back and think about the fact of whether or not we agree with the particular approach any state is taking. Is that the right mechanism to have all that happen at the state level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I also just wanted to ask you very quickly about the power that school boards hold after the dismantling of the Department of Education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>I think there’s been a general sense that when certainly the current administration, the Trump administration, they were campaigning, they’re campaigning on pushing a lot of power back to states and localities, which in many respects would be commensurate with my thesis of how local districts should have a degree of autonomy. And boards are really important and can do a lot of good in trying to steer American education in a positive direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think what we’ve certainly seen over the last bunch of months is a continuation of the fact that the federal government is quite involved. So regardless of what we hear about the Department of Education shrinking or potentially being abolished, we’ve seen examples of where the federal government has certainly exerted power in places that they see something they don’t like. And I think that’s what we’ve seen in many administrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> I wanted to ask about education reform policy and some of the tensions that we see between these big reforms that might happen, one that just always sticks in my mind as common core. What would you say to someone, and I’m talking about voters, who believe that reform policy is the way forward and have kind of lost faith in the school board as an institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>The first thing I would say is that school boards are far from perfect. And there are many boards that certainly make decisions that many of us may look at and say are flawed. And I think there’s no perfect system to govern schools. Having said all that, I think in my mind, school boards are the place where governance can happen in a way that involves the community. And also provides a deep understanding of the district itself, because school boards are part of the districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, districts are very different in this country and they don’t have the same problems. You may have a district that has enrollment that’s dramatically increasing. You may have a district next door that has declining enrollment. That means incredibly different things in terms of how to manage a budget, how to manage operations, how to manage personnel. You could have a district in the same county that is in the 99th percentile in academic outcomes but has a stress and anxiety issue in their high school. And then the district next door might be below proficiency in math and reading. And you need to think about solutions that are very different in those two schools. And it’s extremely hard, I think, to come up with good one-size-fits-all policies that are gonna solve all our problems. And if you do, inevitably, you’re going to hit a roadblock.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the local communities aren’t vested in these programs, in these policies, and we see time and time again, Common Core being an example where it backfires. Because I think it’s so important to have people on the ground that are going to be affected be part of the process to come up with, ultimately, the solutions. And so that’s why I keep coming back to the fact that with all of its flaws, school boards are places that I think we should invest in. So if we started to focus our reform attention there, I actually think we could do a lot of good. And the funny thing is that reformers have looked at every place in the universe except for school boards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You brought up something that kind of reminded me of a huge issue that I hear from, and I think a lot of people have heard from educators when it comes to education reform policy is that the experts who are the teachers in the classroom are not being consulted for these massive changes, or they are not been consulted in the ways that, you know, I think most of them would feel is appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about the partnership that teachers and educators might have with school boards on the granular level where teachers don’t have to remain in this frustrated state of not seeing any change or not seeing any trust in their expertise or professionalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Yes. And I will start by saying that my mom was a kindergarten teacher in public school for over 30 years and I talked to her a lot about what her experience was like when I first became a school board member and ever since then I’ve looked at a lot of the research on teacher attrition and teacher satisfaction which should trouble all of us because the numbers are as we know not what they should be for a profession that’s so noble and and so important. And I think that one of the things that always comes out of studies that are done is the lack of autonomy that teachers feel, to your point, that their expertise isn’t valued, that they don’t have a say over what they’re doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of things that I talk about in my book is initiative fatigue. And it’s something that I always knew about because corporations have initiative fatigue, but when I got to education and my mom told me about this, I realized it was at a different level. And by the time you get to a classroom, if you think about all of the people that throw initiatives at schools, you have federal initiatives, you have state legislative initiatives, you have governors that come in with initiatives, every state has of course a regulatory body, a state school board in New York State and California, we have the regions, and they have initiatives. Then you have board members and the board as a whole that have initiatives, you have administrators at the centralized level, and then of course you have building administrators. And so that’s true. It’s very suffocating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so one of the things I talk about is how, again, if we try to be mindful of getting a better balance between state, federal, and local control, where the local governance entity does have more say over initiative flow, and then you had boards that were thoughtful about having a reasonable number of initiatives at any one time, I think naturally what’s gonna happen is that teachers have a better voice. Because a good board knows that board members are not professional educators and boards have to listen to administrators and teachers in their district. When decisions are made up above, it’s incredibly hard. You might have a committee of a teacher from here and a teacher from there, but we know that it’s not a grassroots effort when a decision’s made at a state or even a national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what it takes to establish and maintain that relationship between local teachers and the school board? What does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>With teachers in particular, if you think about it, boards often have committees, and committees might have representation of teachers and of administrators from different buildings. That’s one way that there could be a really good dialog. There’s often groups like, for instance, the PTA, where you’ll have teachers, and you’ll have parents together, and board members can be a liaison to that group or present, and update on what’s going on at the district level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In many districts, there’s a tradition of board members visiting schools once a year. So you get to maybe go into a classroom and see what’s going on. You would never do that every day, but to do that, to get a sense and a flavor for what’s happening in classrooms, that’s an amazing way to do it as well. Some districts have maybe the board president address teachers once a year. And that’s a really interesting and helpful way, I think also to build a relationship. So there are many ways and it’s important. It’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>So we just talked about partnership between educators and school boards, and you do say in your book that school boards are a mechanism for parent influence. Can you explain that mechanism, what that might look like coming from a parent who has maybe never voted in a local election, seeing an issue with their school and then becoming involved? What does that pathway look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So one of the things that I did, which I think was the most fun when I was researching for the book was I went back into the archives and I did ask the question, it seems like there are so many scenes around the country of very angry parents really yelling and screaming at school boards, has it always been this way or is this something new? And there’s no doubt what I found when you look back is that there have always been points in history where you’ve seen parent anger come out. And I think there’s a very natural question that underlies all of these battles, which is where is the line between parent rights and government control? And I do think that sometimes we’re very quick to either dismiss or to re-emphasize some parent point that is being espoused. But all of us, if we sat in the room and we polled 10 of us, let’s say, and we said, okay, where is that line? We might delineate that line at a slightly different point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you go back to the early 1900s, and I do this in my book, and it’s quite extraordinary, you could see the same exact language being used by parents at school board meetings saying, you can’t vaccinate my kids. If you vaccinate, my kids, you’re violating my rights and their rights, and you’re evaluating my constitutional rights. And they were doing that over the smallpox vaccine. And during COVID, we saw the same thing around the COVID vaccine. And that’s just one example. And so throughout American history, we’ve had this tension. So I think it’s very natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the other bit of tension is indoctrination versus education. Where is that line? And so I think we just have to have a little bit of grace in a way. And I think, the best we could do is say that sometimes people are going to be disagreeing on these subjects. And how do we want to resolve them? I think there’s no better way than with full transparency. In your local community. I think the other piece of your question, though, is if I’m a parent and I’m angry about something, what do I do? Start out, if it’s an issue in a classroom, with the teacher. Go to the teacher, have a conversation, and if that doesn’t work and you’re not satisfied, of course you have the right to talk to the principal or talk to the assistant principal. And if you’re still very unsatisfied, then you can bring it up, but you really don’t want to jump to the school board over the backs of many teachers, administrators that then will not have a chance to solve that problem with you first. If it’s an issue about, let’s say policy or budget allocation that clearly falls in the realm of the board, then of course, um, you have every right to go to the board, but you can also call a board member. If you see a board member at a soccer match or in church, you can certainly have discussions about things that are on your mind and air them, and then of course you have that right to be part of the public comment period too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the other thing that I would also add which is I think something that you always have to think about when you’re a school board member is If somebody comes to public comment and they express concern about a particular issue You always want to listen. It’s incredibly important to listen and to decide, um, you know whether you understand that viewpoint whether you agree with that viewpoint or not, but you don’t know for sure whether or not that viewpoint is 1% of your community or whether it represents 65% of your community. And I just believe that you have to be in touch with your community in lots of different ways and just have lots of data points so that you do get a sense of what the sentiment is like out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Also, speaking of parent influence, we’ve seen a lot of what I think would have been referred to as fringe movements of charter schools and homeschooling. We’re seeing that become a lot more mainstream, not just to talk about, but to practice. And obviously, the system of charter schools is becoming heavily influenced by school systems and there is a relationship between school boards. Charter schools, and also homeschooling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So can you kind of explain some of the influence or partnership that school boards have on those types of systems, and what people and voters can pay attention to when it comes to those educational practices?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Particularly with charter schools, the rules are different depending on what state you’re in. And sometimes school boards have a very influential role in whether or not a charter school can exist. And in other cases, the school board may have absolutely no power and no say. And really what happens is the charter decision is made more centrally at the state level by maybe the state board or one of the state entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I also think that there are a lot of interesting implications when you think about this long term. And I’ll give you one case study that happened in New York that I think could be an interesting microcosm of the situation that can happen in other parts of the country if you fast forward 10, 20 years from now and school choice and vouchers become more commonplace. And it’s actually a district that I attended when I was a kid and now is governed by board, the majority of whom send their kids to private school and it’s created an incredibly complex situation where there is a tremendous rift and rift is an understatement between the public school community and the private school community around the way the public district is being managed. On the one hand these are people that pay taxes and they have every right to, you know, run for school board and they’re winning the elections fair and square. On the other hand, you have individuals that are making decisions about a public school system, where many in the public school community argue are not in the best interest of public school students. And so there’s just incredible amounts of tension. And so you can see this being something that could happen in many communities down the road, if we have many, many more students that are not in the public system, and you might have the preponderance of voters that are in the not public system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanted to end on something that maybe is a little bit uplifting and positive and what you hope to see. Who should care about school boards or how should they care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So to end on a positive note, I think that one thing that I would think that all listeners may agree with is that when we look at our national politics, regardless of what side you’re on, I think it is clear that we have more polarization than we’ve ever had in recent history. And I do believe that when we look at local school districts, the reason that everybody should care is because they are a mechanism to potentially reduce polarization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the one hand, I know we see these scenes of people fighting in boardrooms here, like, how could they reduce polarization? It looks like boardrooms are incredibly polarized. But I would contend that they are the one place where people that have differences of opinion actually come together in person. And because everything is transparent and because local community members have a voice at the microphone, people can actually express their view. And if that view is diametrically different, others have to listen. And there is something incredibly American about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think that there’s this healing process in the fact that we can unify around what happens in a school board room, which is that people of all walks of life that have very different political beliefs can come express their view and have to be listened to. And maybe, just maybe we can realize that sometimes people with very opposing views from a policy perspective might be both coming from a good place, it’s just different places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This does seem like a giant lesson in civics. I really appreciate your time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2030 all high schoolers in California will be required to have taken a course in personal finance or financial literacy before they graduate high school. And across the U.S., about two thirds of states have already implemented or will soon implement similar requirements in their public schools. But what happens in the interim when Gen Z and Gen Alpha students might be left to rely on other sources of financial education and literacy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/\">Lillian Zhang\u003c/a>’s new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/book\">The New Money Rules: The Gen Z Guide to Personal Finance,\u003c/a>” offers a reliable and practical source of information for young people thrust into today’s world of finance in the digital age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First of all, it’s important for Gen Z to know that the rules of the game have changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3326217469\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nMarlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Something that I wanted to get into first, why Gen Z’s financial life looks different from previous generations. You say, like very early on in the first chapter of the book, “the rules of the game have changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s something that it’s really difficult for people to understand if they’re not growing up in Gen Z or younger. We’ll lump millennials in there too. So what does that mean that the rules of the games have changed in practical terms for Gen Z and older generations trying to understand today’s financial environment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think a lot of the changes that have happened for Gen Z and millennials, or just a lot of the external factors, look a lot different compared to other generations before. Maybe like 40 years ago, you can live on one income. And now it’s not the case anymore because wages have not increased at the same rate as cost of living has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d say also in terms of technology and how it’s much easier to gain access to information, which is a really positive thing, but also can promote impulsive behaviors or misinformation because of the technology. It’s easier for Gen Z now to make a lot of money, but it’s also the generation that can lose a lot of money the fastest. So all those factors combined contributes to how Gen Z is really facing a different reality from previous generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Money can buy happiness\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>And you kind of say in a soft way that you disagree with the general statement that money doesn’t bring happiness, in quotes. Can you walk me through your stance on seeking security and freedom through personal finance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. Money is such an integrated part of all of our lives whether or not you think about it on a daily basis there was a previous study from a decade and a half ago that states that the average income needed to be quote happy is around 75,000 but a more recent study says that happiness actually caps off closer to 500,000 a year which is surprising but then at same time, not really surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve also questioned this myself in terms of how much money would I need to feel happy and I just think about what are my goals, what are my values like, what do I appreciate spending money on; that’s how I think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really frustrating for young people to hear older generations say, “You don’t need money to be happy. You don’t need all these things to be happy.” And that’s not the reality when you’re talking about really big financial gaps that a lot of people are facing in the U.S these days. So I really appreciated your openness and your stance on this, especially as a young person that other young people can look up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>FOMO and how to stop comparing yourself to others \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Some of what you talk about in the books is about FOMO or the fear of missing out. You’re an online influencer and you found an unusual amount of financial success for someone in their 20s. What would you say to a young person who follows you and feels like they’re. Quote unquote, falling behind and need to keep up with what you’re doing or maybe with another influencer that they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah i’ve also compared myself to other people as well i think no matter what stage you’re at in your career or in your personal life.I always have to tell myself that the only thing that really matters is if you’ve improved from your past self and everyone’s on their own journey just because someone is 10 steps ahead of you doesn’t mean you should be comparing your first step to someone’s 10 steps…that’s sort of how I’ve Um, positioned it in my head. And so everyone’s just on their own journey. Everyone has different circumstances and situations and it’s not apples to apples comparison.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Online safety for digital natives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We hear a lot about how Gen Z and younger generations are, quote unquote, digital natives. But I don’t think we hear enough about how we can still support younger generations in moments when digital spaces are really hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, young people are still young people. They’re still learning how to navigate the world, figure out who they are. What are some of your quick tips for online safety, specifically maybe avoiding um, scams online or using safe platforms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> So yeah, the scams are getting a lot better and something that’s happened to me personally is I would get emails from a PayPal or an Amazon saying like so-and-so was charged on your card. Click now to undo the charge and as usually someone who is pretending to be a company trying to like get to your email address or your personal banking information and that’s something that I think is important to look out for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think we have this idea that older people are the people that are targeted the most for these types of scams, which they are, but I think also young people are very vulnerable, especially if you have that anxiety about your financial health and you might be learning how to implement impulse control. I know that if I was 16 and I got an email like that, I might automatically click on that link, not even thinking about someone trying to scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Oh, yes, that’s definitely true.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial (dis)advantage\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Okay. So let’s talk about finding financial stability as a young adult. That is a huge topic that contains lots of subtopics and can be super intimidating for a young person to even begin to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> One of the things that really popped out to me is that understanding the inequities of the financial playing field can be really helpful. Especially for young people who might be experiencing that FOMO when it comes to spending money. What would you say to these young people who might not understand that the people who look like they have it all in real life or online are most likely greatly advantaged financially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>I see this a lot like you mentioned on social media a lot of people post what they’re wearing where they’re going out to eat where they are vacationing and i think for a lot of young people who are aspiring to that lifestyle it can be really easy to compare yourself to what other people are doing and for a lot of people they worked for it. And for some people, they’re not showing how they’re affording it, whether that’s through debt; through their parent sponsorship. There are many factors in which you don’t know how they are doing something unless they tell you.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding financial stability through internships \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> There’s also a lot of different ways you can go about finding financial stability as a young adult. One of the really great ways that I saw you point out in the book is how internships create a pathway to financial stability, especially for people looking to find a career in the corporate world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about some of the practicalities of finding an internship even when you’re in high school or in the early stages of your post-secondary education? And how that can kind of set you up for some financial success early in your 20s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so my career path has mostly been the internship and then later on my corporate career, which I am a few years in now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I learned about internships when I was a freshman at college, and so I saw internships as a way to get my foot into the door, and I honestly didn’t really think about the financial aspects of internships because… I do think the main purpose of internships is to gain experience so you can land a higher paying role in the industry you want to be in after college, which is where many people see their real earnings come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In terms of resources for finding internships, when I was in school, I relied on a lot of networks like LinkedIn. I rely on Handshake, which is sort of like a LinkedIn for finding opportunities, but they’re specifically created for college students. And so I really appreciate the opportunities that I found through Handshake actually. Sometimes like professors or classes have jobs or opportunities that they’re connected to. Also relying on the peers in your school, perhaps the alumni that you can reach out to. Those are some of the tips that I have found super helpful when I was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Staying motivated\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about motivation. It’s easy to lose motivation, but especially if you feel like you’re never going to reach your financial goals and especially as a young person whose frontal lobe is not fully developed and you’re just starting to think about your personal finances, you’re starting to learn about future planning. What is a strategy that you like to use when you feel yourself losing motivation to keep your personal finance goals in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because especially for a lot of young people, we live in the culture of FOMO as well as YOLO culture. So, doing things without thinking long term or not understanding that there is a path long term. And I think a lot us get stuck in the cycle of, oh, I’m not going to hit my goals next year, therefore it’s gone to waste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we forget to realize that we have a long life ahead of us. And just because we don’t reach our goals next year doesn’t mean that we’re a failure or that we shouldn’t plan for the future and so i think we just need to be more intentional with what do you really want in five years or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m very adamant on tracking a lot of my progress just like month to month not all the time because I think that can be a little stressful but just like knowing where you’re at and seeing like which parts of this process can I control? And what are other parts of the process that are more external factors that I might have to let go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think it’s just understanding your situation and what specific things can you control in the process that will bring you more of that relief around the topic instead of feeling that you don’t have control over that.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The pitfalls of buy-now-pay-later\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Buy now, pay later. This has been a really big topic over the last couple of years, and I feel like that would be a really enticing tool for especially a young person to use, whether or not they have the finances to keep up with it. What are some of the risks and also rewards associated with these types of payment systems like Klarna or Afterpay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I’ve never used a buy now pay later service ever and it’s just something that I personally have a negative stance against because I think it can do something that is very dangerous. In a way it makes debt seem cute and it makes it not feel like a big deal because you’re not technically getting charged interest and the payments look smaller. So I think that’s what entices a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I mentioned in my book too that it’s kind of like the impulsive behavior that once you start doing something it could unlock something in your brain that it would be okay to do the same process or bnpl service for larger purchases even if you can’t afford it I think that’s the biggest pitfall is spiraling into something bigger than what you perhaps intended it to be be for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the most shocking things I’ve seen online about BNPL is that one of bnpl providers was actually on restaurants like Chipotle. “Get your burrito now and pay it later.” Which I think is really, I’m not sure about that, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm, yeah, that does seem like a really slippery slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Investing versus gambling\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanna also ask you about making the distinction between investing and gambling, especially when it comes to things like cryptocurrency and meme stock and sports betting that might blur the lines between investing in gambling behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> When it comes to short-term gambling or investing based on hype it usually involves a high form of luck. It’s not dependent on these specific technicals of how investment would grow over time, it’s more about did you get in at the right time and you get out at the right time. The entry points and the points that you leave is crucial whether or not you lose a lot of money or gain a lot money, and I don’t believe that is the wisest way for most people to build wealth long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when you’re investing in something in the long term, you’re investing in the fundamentals of a company or the economy as a whole. And that has its own guardrails. And studies have shown that if you invest for the long term, over a 20 year period, you’re basically guaranteed to profit off your investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think a lot of people, young people, don’t think about what their life would look like in X many years from now, because a lot of us want that instant gratification, just like when impulse shopping. And a lot of people want to see immediate gains in their money or investment growth. And so we just have to temper our expectations a little.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Meme stock versus meme coin\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>In the book, you tell a story about losing money to a risky investment in a meme coin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I mentioned meme stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain to us the difference between the two?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so the theory behind a meme stock and a meme coin is very similar. In the sense that it’s driven up by hype and there’s no real logic behind this particular asset. And so the difference is a stock is basically a portion of a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So an example like a real stock is like Google, Amazon, Apple, like established public companies, and a meme stock is a stop representing a company that is driven up artificially by media hype, by social hype, with no real logic to why the stock would increase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a normal situation when a stock increases, it’s because perhaps the product did well in sales. Or the earnings report was good, like something tangible behind that And a meme coin is a similar concept also driven by hype and the media except it’s for cryptocurrency. So digital currency that is worth money if you sell it. It’s driven by urgency in hopes that you will also enter in this investment and the people who actually benefit know when it’s gonna top out and they sell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And most people who get into this lose a lot of money because by the time you hear about it on the news the hype is already over but people still enter when the hype is over there’s no logic behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial literacy in high school\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about personal finance classes in high school. As of right now, over 30 states, including California, have some sort of ongoing or newly implemented mandate on personal finance class for high schoolers. How do you feel about personal finance classes and high schools and was it something that was offered to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think it’s really great that California in particular is paying more attention to this subject. When I was in high school, we had classes like microeconomics and learning about the government and learning personal finance would ha ve been so helpful for me leaving high school going to college or entering the real world because if the schools don’t teach you, a lot of times like kids and teenagers, students don’t know what to seek out because you don’t what you don’t know, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think introducing it early is going to be super helpful for students. And I saw that California is mandating a course to every high schooler starting in the 2030 to 31 school year, which is really great, but that’s still five years away. There’s still a long time. A lot of students within that timeframe still won’t get access, wide access, to the education. And so I think there’s still a lot of work to be done, but I’m really glad to see that California is picking this up.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How do you know who to trust online?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We know that most of Gen Z has grown up in a world with at least the internet and then younger Gen Z, obviously, a lot of other digital technologies. And there’s a lot of financial advice online these days. You can find financial advice on any social platform, wherever you look. And we know that Gen Z and younger generations seek out a lot of advice in general through social media. How do you know who to trust, who to follow? Whose advice to apply to your own financial life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Really great question. I say a lot of people including myself are sharing more of their personal finance journey or lessons kind of learned along the way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like to follow a lot people who kind of are in like a similar relatable journey and I kind of learn what worked for someone else and see if I can apply their life lessons to me and that’s kind of how I like to learn and I think a lot of my audience looks up to like my profile in a similar way but we also have more of those industry leaders who actually have credentials who talk more about like advice and what you can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I say every time you see an educational video content or book it doesn’t matter who it’s from you should understand that it’s not like a black and white situation where what they say is the truth. Always use your analytical thinking to decide whether what they said applies to you since everyone’s situation is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And also like to emphasize how there are also a lot of like get rich quick schemes that are promoted on social media and if something seems too good to be true, if someone’s promising profits like tomorrow, if you want to get onto this hype stock or investment next week to make money. If it sounds too good to be true, it’s probably a scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nMarlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Something that I wanted to get into first, why Gen Z’s financial life looks different from previous generations. You say, like very early on in the first chapter of the book, “the rules of the game have changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s something that it’s really difficult for people to understand if they’re not growing up in Gen Z or younger. We’ll lump millennials in there too. So what does that mean that the rules of the games have changed in practical terms for Gen Z and older generations trying to understand today’s financial environment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think a lot of the changes that have happened for Gen Z and millennials, or just a lot of the external factors, look a lot different compared to other generations before. Maybe like 40 years ago, you can live on one income. And now it’s not the case anymore because wages have not increased at the same rate as cost of living has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d say also in terms of technology and how it’s much easier to gain access to information, which is a really positive thing, but also can promote impulsive behaviors or misinformation because of the technology. It’s easier for Gen Z now to make a lot of money, but it’s also the generation that can lose a lot of money the fastest. So all those factors combined contributes to how Gen Z is really facing a different reality from previous generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Money can buy happiness\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>And you kind of say in a soft way that you disagree with the general statement that money doesn’t bring happiness, in quotes. Can you walk me through your stance on seeking security and freedom through personal finance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. Money is such an integrated part of all of our lives whether or not you think about it on a daily basis there was a previous study from a decade and a half ago that states that the average income needed to be quote happy is around 75,000 but a more recent study says that happiness actually caps off closer to 500,000 a year which is surprising but then at same time, not really surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve also questioned this myself in terms of how much money would I need to feel happy and I just think about what are my goals, what are my values like, what do I appreciate spending money on; that’s how I think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really frustrating for young people to hear older generations say, “You don’t need money to be happy. You don’t need all these things to be happy.” And that’s not the reality when you’re talking about really big financial gaps that a lot of people are facing in the U.S these days. So I really appreciated your openness and your stance on this, especially as a young person that other young people can look up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>FOMO and how to stop comparing yourself to others \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Some of what you talk about in the books is about FOMO or the fear of missing out. You’re an online influencer and you found an unusual amount of financial success for someone in their 20s. What would you say to a young person who follows you and feels like they’re. Quote unquote, falling behind and need to keep up with what you’re doing or maybe with another influencer that they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah i’ve also compared myself to other people as well i think no matter what stage you’re at in your career or in your personal life.I always have to tell myself that the only thing that really matters is if you’ve improved from your past self and everyone’s on their own journey just because someone is 10 steps ahead of you doesn’t mean you should be comparing your first step to someone’s 10 steps…that’s sort of how I’ve Um, positioned it in my head. And so everyone’s just on their own journey. Everyone has different circumstances and situations and it’s not apples to apples comparison.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Online safety for digital natives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We hear a lot about how Gen Z and younger generations are, quote unquote, digital natives. But I don’t think we hear enough about how we can still support younger generations in moments when digital spaces are really hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, young people are still young people. They’re still learning how to navigate the world, figure out who they are. What are some of your quick tips for online safety, specifically maybe avoiding um, scams online or using safe platforms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> So yeah, the scams are getting a lot better and something that’s happened to me personally is I would get emails from a PayPal or an Amazon saying like so-and-so was charged on your card. Click now to undo the charge and as usually someone who is pretending to be a company trying to like get to your email address or your personal banking information and that’s something that I think is important to look out for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think we have this idea that older people are the people that are targeted the most for these types of scams, which they are, but I think also young people are very vulnerable, especially if you have that anxiety about your financial health and you might be learning how to implement impulse control. I know that if I was 16 and I got an email like that, I might automatically click on that link, not even thinking about someone trying to scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Oh, yes, that’s definitely true.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial (dis)advantage\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Okay. So let’s talk about finding financial stability as a young adult. That is a huge topic that contains lots of subtopics and can be super intimidating for a young person to even begin to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> One of the things that really popped out to me is that understanding the inequities of the financial playing field can be really helpful. Especially for young people who might be experiencing that FOMO when it comes to spending money. What would you say to these young people who might not understand that the people who look like they have it all in real life or online are most likely greatly advantaged financially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>I see this a lot like you mentioned on social media a lot of people post what they’re wearing where they’re going out to eat where they are vacationing and i think for a lot of young people who are aspiring to that lifestyle it can be really easy to compare yourself to what other people are doing and for a lot of people they worked for it. And for some people, they’re not showing how they’re affording it, whether that’s through debt; through their parent sponsorship. There are many factors in which you don’t know how they are doing something unless they tell you.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding financial stability through internships \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> There’s also a lot of different ways you can go about finding financial stability as a young adult. One of the really great ways that I saw you point out in the book is how internships create a pathway to financial stability, especially for people looking to find a career in the corporate world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about some of the practicalities of finding an internship even when you’re in high school or in the early stages of your post-secondary education? And how that can kind of set you up for some financial success early in your 20s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so my career path has mostly been the internship and then later on my corporate career, which I am a few years in now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I learned about internships when I was a freshman at college, and so I saw internships as a way to get my foot into the door, and I honestly didn’t really think about the financial aspects of internships because… I do think the main purpose of internships is to gain experience so you can land a higher paying role in the industry you want to be in after college, which is where many people see their real earnings come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In terms of resources for finding internships, when I was in school, I relied on a lot of networks like LinkedIn. I rely on Handshake, which is sort of like a LinkedIn for finding opportunities, but they’re specifically created for college students. And so I really appreciate the opportunities that I found through Handshake actually. Sometimes like professors or classes have jobs or opportunities that they’re connected to. Also relying on the peers in your school, perhaps the alumni that you can reach out to. Those are some of the tips that I have found super helpful when I was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Staying motivated\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about motivation. It’s easy to lose motivation, but especially if you feel like you’re never going to reach your financial goals and especially as a young person whose frontal lobe is not fully developed and you’re just starting to think about your personal finances, you’re starting to learn about future planning. What is a strategy that you like to use when you feel yourself losing motivation to keep your personal finance goals in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because especially for a lot of young people, we live in the culture of FOMO as well as YOLO culture. So, doing things without thinking long term or not understanding that there is a path long term. And I think a lot us get stuck in the cycle of, oh, I’m not going to hit my goals next year, therefore it’s gone to waste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we forget to realize that we have a long life ahead of us. And just because we don’t reach our goals next year doesn’t mean that we’re a failure or that we shouldn’t plan for the future and so i think we just need to be more intentional with what do you really want in five years or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m very adamant on tracking a lot of my progress just like month to month not all the time because I think that can be a little stressful but just like knowing where you’re at and seeing like which parts of this process can I control? And what are other parts of the process that are more external factors that I might have to let go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think it’s just understanding your situation and what specific things can you control in the process that will bring you more of that relief around the topic instead of feeling that you don’t have control over that.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The pitfalls of buy-now-pay-later\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Buy now, pay later. This has been a really big topic over the last couple of years, and I feel like that would be a really enticing tool for especially a young person to use, whether or not they have the finances to keep up with it. What are some of the risks and also rewards associated with these types of payment systems like Klarna or Afterpay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I’ve never used a buy now pay later service ever and it’s just something that I personally have a negative stance against because I think it can do something that is very dangerous. In a way it makes debt seem cute and it makes it not feel like a big deal because you’re not technically getting charged interest and the payments look smaller. So I think that’s what entices a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I mentioned in my book too that it’s kind of like the impulsive behavior that once you start doing something it could unlock something in your brain that it would be okay to do the same process or bnpl service for larger purchases even if you can’t afford it I think that’s the biggest pitfall is spiraling into something bigger than what you perhaps intended it to be be for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the most shocking things I’ve seen online about BNPL is that one of bnpl providers was actually on restaurants like Chipotle. “Get your burrito now and pay it later.” Which I think is really, I’m not sure about that, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm, yeah, that does seem like a really slippery slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Investing versus gambling\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanna also ask you about making the distinction between investing and gambling, especially when it comes to things like cryptocurrency and meme stock and sports betting that might blur the lines between investing in gambling behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> When it comes to short-term gambling or investing based on hype it usually involves a high form of luck. It’s not dependent on these specific technicals of how investment would grow over time, it’s more about did you get in at the right time and you get out at the right time. The entry points and the points that you leave is crucial whether or not you lose a lot of money or gain a lot money, and I don’t believe that is the wisest way for most people to build wealth long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when you’re investing in something in the long term, you’re investing in the fundamentals of a company or the economy as a whole. And that has its own guardrails. And studies have shown that if you invest for the long term, over a 20 year period, you’re basically guaranteed to profit off your investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think a lot of people, young people, don’t think about what their life would look like in X many years from now, because a lot of us want that instant gratification, just like when impulse shopping. And a lot of people want to see immediate gains in their money or investment growth. And so we just have to temper our expectations a little.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Meme stock versus meme coin\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>In the book, you tell a story about losing money to a risky investment in a meme coin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I mentioned meme stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain to us the difference between the two?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so the theory behind a meme stock and a meme coin is very similar. In the sense that it’s driven up by hype and there’s no real logic behind this particular asset. And so the difference is a stock is basically a portion of a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So an example like a real stock is like Google, Amazon, Apple, like established public companies, and a meme stock is a stop representing a company that is driven up artificially by media hype, by social hype, with no real logic to why the stock would increase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a normal situation when a stock increases, it’s because perhaps the product did well in sales. Or the earnings report was good, like something tangible behind that And a meme coin is a similar concept also driven by hype and the media except it’s for cryptocurrency. So digital currency that is worth money if you sell it. It’s driven by urgency in hopes that you will also enter in this investment and the people who actually benefit know when it’s gonna top out and they sell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And most people who get into this lose a lot of money because by the time you hear about it on the news the hype is already over but people still enter when the hype is over there’s no logic behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial literacy in high school\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about personal finance classes in high school. As of right now, over 30 states, including California, have some sort of ongoing or newly implemented mandate on personal finance class for high schoolers. How do you feel about personal finance classes and high schools and was it something that was offered to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think it’s really great that California in particular is paying more attention to this subject. When I was in high school, we had classes like microeconomics and learning about the government and learning personal finance would ha ve been so helpful for me leaving high school going to college or entering the real world because if the schools don’t teach you, a lot of times like kids and teenagers, students don’t know what to seek out because you don’t what you don’t know, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think introducing it early is going to be super helpful for students. And I saw that California is mandating a course to every high schooler starting in the 2030 to 31 school year, which is really great, but that’s still five years away. There’s still a long time. A lot of students within that timeframe still won’t get access, wide access, to the education. And so I think there’s still a lot of work to be done, but I’m really glad to see that California is picking this up.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How do you know who to trust online?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We know that most of Gen Z has grown up in a world with at least the internet and then younger Gen Z, obviously, a lot of other digital technologies. And there’s a lot of financial advice online these days. You can find financial advice on any social platform, wherever you look. And we know that Gen Z and younger generations seek out a lot of advice in general through social media. How do you know who to trust, who to follow? Whose advice to apply to your own financial life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Really great question. I say a lot of people including myself are sharing more of their personal finance journey or lessons kind of learned along the way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like to follow a lot people who kind of are in like a similar relatable journey and I kind of learn what worked for someone else and see if I can apply their life lessons to me and that’s kind of how I like to learn and I think a lot of my audience looks up to like my profile in a similar way but we also have more of those industry leaders who actually have credentials who talk more about like advice and what you can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I say every time you see an educational video content or book it doesn’t matter who it’s from you should understand that it’s not like a black and white situation where what they say is the truth. Always use your analytical thinking to decide whether what they said applies to you since everyone’s situation is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And also like to emphasize how there are also a lot of like get rich quick schemes that are promoted on social media and if something seems too good to be true, if someone’s promising profits like tomorrow, if you want to get onto this hype stock or investment next week to make money. If it sounds too good to be true, it’s probably a scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This month MindShift is sharing an episode from MITs TeachLab podcast. Hosts Jessie Dukes and Justin Reich have interviewed teachers, school leaders and students about how the debut of ChatGPT and Generative AI is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve compiled their learnings into a mini series called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">Homework Machine\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3473844164\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey MindShift listeners, It’s Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ve got a special episode to share with you. It’s from our friends at Teach Lab, a podcast about the art and craft of teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their mini series, called The Homework Machine, hosts Jesse Dukes and Justin Reich explore the reactions to AI when it first debuted as a strange new technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll let our friends from Teach Lab take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> This is the Teach Lab podcast, I’m Justin Reich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And I’m Jesse Dukes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Devon O’Neil is a high school social studies teacher in Oregon. Back in 2021, after six years of teaching, she took 2 years off while her husband attended grad school. At MIT actually. And during her break from teaching, she worked designing classroom curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Which is a super cool experience, very different from being in the classroom, and also really reinforced that I wanted to be in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> When she was on her break, O’Neil missed two momentous years for schools. There was a pandemic, remote learning, hybrid learning, returning to school buildings. And when she went back to the classroom, in the fall of 2023, she said, there was some culture shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> It was those two, like super crazy post-Covid years. So I come back, and it’s like, like those movies where the caveman, like defrost or whatever. And they’re like “what is this?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t just that her fellow teachers were harrowed and burned out, while she was fresh and energetic. She also noticed that the student work was, well, different from what she remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> I’d have these really well written paragraphs or snippets that are looked to be very well researched and all this, but not at all on topic. Grammar was off. Even the most brilliant 14-year-old still talks like a 14-year-old and still writes like a 14-year-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, the grammar was oddly good. O’Neil can see her students’ screens, and she sometimes watches them work. And, one day, she noticed they were using an unusual search engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Bing! I was noticing a lot of them were using Bing. To Google stuff, see even to Google stuff. And I was like, that’s the weirdest choice. Who uses Bing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And then, one day, she was watching a student complete a writing assignment in a google doc. And poof, a whole well-written paragraph just appeared. Out of nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Like one minute it’s not there, and one minute it’s there. And, it said like “here are your results”. And they forgot to delete that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And that’s when Devon realized her students were using ChatGPT to complete in class writing assignments. They would copy and paste the questions she would give them into Bing’s Copilot, which was a free way to use ChatGPT. Then, the students copied the answer, sometimes without any editing, right into their google document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil: \u003c/strong>Which is kind of a rookie mistake, like if they’re going to cheat, you want them to cheat a little better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> We first talked to Devon in 2023, just a few weeks after she figured out what was going on. She says that since then, she’s gotten a lot more savvy about ChatGPT. But her experience speaks to how much can, and did, change in schools, in just a couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> In November of 2022, ChatGPT was launched as a free research preview of advanced generative AI, like a pilot, or beta version. Generative AI is a type of artificial intelligence that can create new content, especially text, but also images, videos, and music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ChatGPT is the most famous example of generative AI. There are competitors like Google’s Gemini, Anthropic’s Claude, and the Chinese company, DeepSeek. And rather quickly, students figured out, ChatGPT was pretty good at doing their homework for them. Devon, out of school for two years, working on curriculum, had missed the arrival of the new homework machine. But her students had not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> The arrival of chatGPT, and then fairly quick upgrades with GPT-3.5 and GPT-4 within a couple of years, has been the big story in education technology since the fall of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Waterfall of news stories]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 1: \u003c/strong>So how does it work? Students can drop an assignment into something like ChatGPT, click a button and their homework is done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 2: \u003c/strong>She is talking about ChatGPT. School districts like New York cities are banning it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 3: \u003c/strong>ChatGPT is the new artificial intelligence tool causing a stir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools have scrambled to figure out what to do about ChatGPT. Ban it? Embrace it? Teachers have scrambled to try to get ahead of the “cheating” problem, and to find ways in which AI can support education. Some Students have scrambled to figure out how to use AI without their teachers detecting it. And education technology companies have scrambled to create AI powered ed tech. And have made many promises about how generative AI will transform education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan:\u003c/strong> But I think we’re at the cusp of using AI for probably the biggest positive transformation that education has ever seen, and the way we’re going to do that is by giving every student on the planet an artificially intelligent but amazing personal tutor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My career has been devoted to studying education technology. Over and over again, we’ve seen new technologies emerge in education, and the technology developers will promise, every time, that the new tech will transform and democratize education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan :\u003c/strong>That’s what’s about to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And while the technologies do sometimes help teachers and students, those big transformations to schools, they never happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> But there is something different about Chat GPT and other AI. Throughout history, most education technology has been adopted by schools, who hope it will help them do better work, teaching students. But Generative AI wasn’t invited into schools. Not for the most part. It crashed the party. Even if schools ban it from school laptops, students can often get around that ban, by using Bing, for example. Or they have their own laptop. Or they can access it on their mobile phone, which over 95% of teenagers have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, the kids have access to generative AI. And they’re using it, whether their teachers want them to, or not. That’s having a big impact on schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a little about me, and this project. I am a journalist, and for the past year and a half, I’ve been working with Justin and other colleagues at MIT’s Teaching Systems Lab. We’ve interviewed over 85 teachers and school leaders, and over 35 students about how all of this is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been hearing about why students cheat using AI, what teachers are doing to stop them, and how some teachers and students have found ChatGPT to be helpful for learning. And for the next several weeks, we’re going to share what we’ve learned with you in a mini series we’re calling the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And now, Jesse, who has immersed himself in this research, will be our host and guide for these episodes. Jesse, you can take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Thanks Justin, but not so fast. We’re going to want your historical knowledge about educational technology to help us unpack and contextualize these stories. So stay close, and keep your mic handy. In fact, we’re going to hear from you again in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Sounds good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Alright, well, let’s go back to A beginning: December of 2022. We’ll start with Steve Ouellette. He’s a technology director at the Westwood School district, southwest of Boston. His job includes keeping track of computers and software for the district, but also helping teachers think through how to use technology in their work. He remembers the exact moment he heard about generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> So I think it was, it was December 8th. And I was home sick with Covid. I got an email, I’m on a listserv, you know, with all the tech directors in Massachusetts and I got an email that said: Have AI write your next English paper. The sub caption was: Buckle up, here it comes. And someone had basically shared a video of this thing called ChatGPT, that was generating an essay about, I think it was about Raisin in the Sun. And I was like “What is going on here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Watching the video, Ouellette says he immediately realized that this was a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was, that was a moment. You know, I’ve been in this business since 1993 and I don’t remember having like, a really specific, like, reaction to something the way I did when I saw that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Ouellette emailed the district’s superintendent, and explained the situation to her. There was a new technological tool, available to students, that could do their schoolwork. Pretty effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> And she had no idea what it was. And I explained to her what it was and sent her a link and she shot back to me five minutes later and she’s like, yeah, we need to write about this. And so we, we felt, we both felt this sense of like, urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> The superintendent asked Ouellette to write a memo to the district’s teachers. Ouellette is a technology guy, and out of curiosity and excitement, he decided to experiment. Could ChatGPT draft the memo? He asked ChatGPT to write the first draft and sent it to the superintendent. She read it and told Ouellette, this is pretty formal language, it doesn’t sound like you. Make it more casual sounding. But Ouellette didn’t rewrite the memo himself. He prompted ChatGPT to revise the memo. And he told it: “Make it more conversational.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> I said, you need to write something funny about how, you know France was gonna win the World Cup. And it like, seamlessly incorporated a little like parenthetical thing about, oh by the way, France is gonna win the World Cup. And in the way it did, it was like magnificent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Here’s the memo ChatGPT wrote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ChatGPT: \u003c/strong> ChatGPT could also be used to help students learn other languages, such as Spanish or French (which, by the way, I think will win the 2022 World Cup). Imagine being able to have a conversation with ChatGPT in French and receiving instant corrections and feedback on your pronunciation and grammar. The possibilities are truly endless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Side note, I’m not that impressed with how ChatGPT did with that World Cup joke. It says that “French” will win the world cup, not “France”. But, that aside, they sent the memo out that Monday. Remember, this was December of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next few months, Ouellette formed an AI working group in the district. They brought in a guest speaker. They looked at academic policies. They talked to teachers and students. And by the summer of 2023, they had revised academic integrity guidelines as well as some basic training for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> The goal was to inform staff about what this stuff is, to let them know that there are guidelines, and that if they have students, you know, in grades eight or higher, they can use it with their students. But we also wanted to inform staff how to use it for themselves to make their own work more efficient. The theory behind that is if they’re using it, then they’ll be more informed to use it responsibly with their kids. And it’s nowhere near where what it needs to be. I’ll be the first to admit it, but we did something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> What Westwood did was quite a bit more than most districts. Last fall, a survey found only about one quarter of teachers said their school district had provided any guidance or professional development, about AI. That’s two years after the arrival of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Westwood, the faculty learned about ChatGPT pretty early on. Likely before many of their students heard about it. That was NOT true for other schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> The First Time I heard about ChatGPT was in my English Class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>This is Nanki Kaur. She just graduated from American High School, in Fremont, California. And she heard about ChatGPT from another student back in the spring of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> We were having a conversation about how we were going to approach our research paper assignment that was coming up, and you would have to pick an individual of American significance and prove why they were of American significance and what impact they had. And he was talking about how he just asked this AI platform about how his person of American Significance who was BLEEP, had an impact on America and he got a really strong thesis statement. And he said, I didn’t even have to do anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Now, I bleeped that last bit so this student won’t get in trouble.But the point here, Nanki says the thesis statement was actually pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> And we were all confused and we were like, what are you talking about? Like how did you not have to do anything and how do you have such a strong thesis statement? ’cause we were just learning how to write a thesis statement at that time. And he said, there’s this online platform, it’s driven by artificial intelligence and it just writes it for you and it’s, it’s really thorough.It’s really good. You guys should try it. And so that was the first time I heard about it and I was shocked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Nanki talked with our colleague Holly McDede, a reporter based in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Did you try it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I did go home and try it. Not for the same assignment, but I went home and I looked it up like Chat GPT, OpenAI, what is it? And then I asked it a couple questions like what is the weather like, and if I were to write a story about a certain situation,could you write me a story? And it actually answered all my prompts and it wrote me like a solid paragraph, and so I was shocked. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Nanki says she doesn’t know what the other student did with his thesis statement, but she has a guess:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I think he did turn it in and I don’t know what kind of disciplinary action he got because there wasn’t really much set in stone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Do you suspect he didn’t get any disciplinary action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I do suspect that because he was oddly smug about how well he had done on that assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> As far as Nanki knows, that student didn’t get in any trouble. In fact, she’s not sure the teachers knew about ChatGPT at that point. And Nanki says that the school didn’t seem to catch on that students were using ChatGPT to cheat until the fall of 2023, the next school year. A whole year after ChatGPT launched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nanki says when they did realize what was happening, the school came down hard. Nanki’s AP English teacher held a special class meeting to present the new academic integrity policy, with a list of sanctions if students were caught using Chat GPT or other AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Which included, zeros on the assignments or administrative disciplinary action. And if worse comes to worst, then it would be, suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> At American High School Nanki says their policies didn’t just ban ChatGPT. Students were also told they couldn’t use Grammarly, the grammar check program, or similar AI tools that are often built into students’ browsers. But, the policies weren’t applied consistently. Nanki says her social studies teacher actually encouraged her to use AI for research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Because she said, I think it’s a really good tool to get all the facts in one spot. Obviously, I’m gonna ask you guys to fact check and cross check, make sure that everything is correct. But I think it’s a really great, you know, tool for you guys to use so that you have everything in one place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Was that confusing for you or other students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> It was confusing for me, personally because I was like, I just don’t want to use it at all. Like I don’t even care because I don’t need like this habit. I don’t want it on my computer. I don’t want it anywhere, like I just want it like away from me because I didn’t want to jeopardize any chance of having a good grade in that class or in any of my classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Some 3000 miles away from Nanki, another student had quite a different experience. Woody Goss was wrapping up 8th grade in a public school in the suburbs north of New York city when he spoke to us in the spring of 2024. He says his teachers didn’t really respond to the arrival of ChatGPT. And, that students used AI to get their schoolwork done in almost all of his classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says his science class was the worst. The students all have laptops, but the teacher sits in front of the class, and can’t see what’s on the screens. Woody sits in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> And you can see everybody’s screen and you can see ChatGPT spitting out the text, and you can see them copy and pasting it into their paper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> You could literally see your fellow students using ChatGPT…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss: \u003c/strong> And copying and pasting it, yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> If you could estimate how many people in a classroom of 20 students, how many were using it to cheat in the way you’re describing. How many would you say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> So I’d say that there’s 10 people in that class using it for everything like cheating on, the whole paper is AI, I’d say there’s another 5 that probably half of it’s written by AI, but they do actually read it through and go, “Gee, maybe I don’t wanna include the part that says ‘As a large language model…’” but they like read it through and copy parts and splice bits and do whatever. Then I’d say of, so you’ve got five remaining. I’d say probably 4 of that 5 do the paper legitimately. So there’s 4 people doing it legitimately, and then there’s another one that’s going, and I don’t know, they, it’s kind of a mix, like they plagiarized stuff, but it’s like a paragraph in their entire thing. And I would say, of those 4, I mean, unless you’ve got a really, not a super smart tech kid, I’d say probably all four of those are using AI in some way. It’s just using it appropriately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Woody says that some of his teachers were apparently totally oblivious to generative AI. But not his science teacher. She tried to encourage students to use it in a way that would help them learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> That teacher was really trying, she seemed to grasp the concept that there was AI being used, and she was like, we’re gonna learn how to use AI, legitimately and like how do we use it in our research? And everybody heard, oh, you can use AI in your paper. And they all didn’t actually listen to what she was saying. Please use it as like a secondary source. And they all went, “okay, I’m gonna use ChatGPT to write my paper. “\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Um, do you have any teachers who effectively managed this? You know, either in their…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> No, I have the science teacher really tried. She really, she did actually provide, unlike all the other teachers, she actually provided instruction like, Hey, here’s how we’re gonna use it. Everybody ignored it, but she did try, right? All my other teachers just flat out ignored it the whole year. Um, except for the ELA teacher who said, we’re all writing paper benchmarks, which was a nightmare. That was just…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Why, why was that a nightmare?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> Because I’d say for a lot of us, not, not even including AI, we’re all digital people on Chromebooks. We don’t, we don’t know how to write a paper benchmark, which you could argue is its own problem. But then you had a million kids yelling and screaming about that, because god forbid you have to write a paper benchmark. Eww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, according to Woody, his English teacher made the students write things out by hand, which actually did keep people from using ChatGPT. Although Woody thinks that created other problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people have suggested that Woody doesn’t need to worry. According to him he’s doing his work legitimately. Assuming that’s true, and that the other students are using ChatGPT, then it’ll all come out in the wash. He’ll actually learn what he’s supposed to, and the others won’t, and eventually, that will be obvious, and give him an advantage. Maybe in getting into college, maybe on tests, maybe in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Woody doesn’t see it that way. In his world. Grades matter. Students are under pressure. When students choose to cheat, that can impact how the teachers teach the material. And the pace of learning, which puts even more pressure on the students who are trying to do the work themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s frustrating. It’s a compounding effect. I’d say at the beginning of the year, there weren’t a lot of students using AI, and I’d say it’s shifted as the pacing gets faster, then more kids feel like they need it ’cause they feel like they’re gonna fail if they don’t have it. So it piles on itself, and it also, I was never the fast worker in the class. I can do the work, but I’m like dyslexic anyway, so it takes me forever to do the work anyway. I’d say the number of people not using it, like the number of people holding out and being like, “I’m gonna do my work legitimately” is going down because it’s just, there’s no room for, especially in the district where I am, where a lot of, we’re very grade grubby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s expected, like you gotta have an A in every class. So everybody is, “I gotta get that A, I gotta get this assignment in on time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> All right. I’d like to bring Justin Reich back to the program. Justin has studied technology in schools over the decades, and he can help us make sense of the stories we just heard. Welcome back Justin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me, Jesse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So the interviews that I shared took place over a year ago, and we’re now coming up on 3 years since ChatGPT was unveiled in November of 2022. So I’m curious what overall reactions you’re having as you listen back to these stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, the first thing it makes me think of is something that we’ve talked about before, which is just this idea of instantaneous arrival is so unusual for an education technology. I mean, the joke we make sometimes is that, you know, “no kid ever dragged their own smart board into a classroom”. Typically education technology was purchased by schools, and that meant the schools could have at least something of a plan before they gave all their teachers online grade books, or they bought all their kids’ Chromebooks, or they bought all their kids’ iPads, or whatever else it is. But there is zero time for planning. There’s zero time for preparation. You know, Steve Ouellette says, “This is urgent”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just, there’s something which is happening right now and we need to deal with it. And then schools have really different capacities to deal with that. So an affluent place like Westwood, where they probably have recovered pretty well from the pandemic where things are feeling like they’re back on track, they probably have plenty of resources to hire substitute teachers, you know, the population of kids they serve have all kinds of challenges, but not nearly, the challenges they might encounter in some of their urban neighborhoods nearby or rural neighborhoods out west. They’re in a good place to be able to say, “Oh, we’ve, I’ve got some extra time to be able to manage this. Like, let’s get started.” Let’s, you know, teachers have extra time to be on the working group, “Let’s get started working on this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For, at other places, many, many schools in November 2022, in the spring of 2023, were still drowning in the challenges of chronic absenteeism of learning, loss of school that felt like it really hadn’t bounced back yet. And so this new thing shows up, and not every school in the country is on the same footing in figuring out how to deal with it. But of course, even if a school doesn’t have an institutional plan to deal with it, every teacher has to deal with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Ms O’Neill walks into her classroom and all of her students are using Bing. And she goes, well, you know, Bing! Bing is the web browser that you use to download Google Chrome, so you can never have to use Bing again. Why are all my students using Bing on a Chromebook? Like none of this makes sense. And what a great story, to remind us how significantly and quickly things changed and how there was no choice to postpone this. There was no way to say, ah, “ we’ll just buy, maybe we’ll buy the smart boards, but we’ll buy them next year, or we’ll buy them two years after that. Let’s just work on other stuff for now.” You, as an educator, had this in your classroom and had to decide what you were gonna do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Well, speaking of no option to postpone, I wanna play you something that Sam Altman said about all of this back in 2023. You know that Sam Altman was one of the founders of OpenAI, the company responsible for ChatGPT. And he’s the CEO. You may remember he was actually ousted from the company briefly and then reinstated in an episode they’re now calling the blip, and one thing he’s gotten some criticism for is just releasing new versions of ChatGPT out into the world, arguably without a lot of thought about what impact that might have or without a lot of support for institutions like schools that might be impacted by AI. And in 2023, the hosts of the New York Times podcast, Hard Fork asked him about that. And here’s what he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman:\u003c/strong> You know, one example that I mean is instructive because it was the first and the loudest is what happened with ChatGPT and education. Days, at least weeks. But I think days after the release of ChatGPT school districts were like falling all over themselves to ban ChatGPT. And that didn’t really surprise us, like that we could have predicted and did predict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The thing that happened after that quickly was, you know, like weeks to months, was school districts and teachers saying, Hey, actually we made a mistake and this is really important part of the future of education and the benefits far outweigh the downside. And not only are we banning it, we’re encouraging our teachers to make use of it in the classroom. We’re encouraging our students to get really good at this tool because it’s gonna be part of the way people live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, you know, then there was like a big discussion about what, what the kind of path forward should be. And that is just not something that could have happened without releasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>So Justin, you were paying pretty close attention in 2022 and 2023 when ChatGPT was first unleashed upon schools. Do you think Altman’s account is historically accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I actually got to hear Sam Altman give some version of this because he came to MIT, not long after November, 2022, gave a talk that was facilitated by Sally Kornbluth, our president. And he said something along the lines, I think the question was something like, you know, where are there big wins for ChatGPT? And he was like, well, education’s a slam dunk. This is a place where very obviously, we’re seeing benefits, not really seeing any downsides. Things are just immediately improving society. So this is gonna be a fast win for us. And yeah, you know, it’s, it’s delusional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not at all connected to what is actually happening in reality in schools. I’m sure some of it is, if I built a technology product, I’d be pretty excited to hear the voices of people who are happy with it. You know, people in powerful places don’t always have great sources of information about what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes : \u003c/strong>And, and everything he says has a kind of factual basis to it, but it adds up to a kind of orderly picture of what happens, that to me doesn’t really reflect the chaos that educators were experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Also, if you just know something about schools, this idea that, like, “as soon as it was released they were all doing something”, it’s like, no, that’s not how schools work. And then “really quickly after doing it, they reverse themselves” and you’re like, no, you do not under- like, schools are carrier fleets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools are super tankers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Schools are super tankers. Like when they turn, they turn slowly and they turn with inertia. And when they go back it takes a lot of time to move that backwards, but even just in the handful of stories that we heard,we heard from a couple of students, one teacher who said there was nothing happening in their schools. It wasn’t being banned, it wasn’t being encouraged. Teachers were kind of figuring out on their own what to do with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I mean, if you talk to teachers and students, it’s not very hard to get stories where you get the sense of like, oh, this is not an unambiguously good thing. Like this is making Nanki nervous because pretty clearly students are using this to bypass their learning in ways that they shouldn’t. Woody is really concerned that his classes are moving faster than they’re supposed to because teachers are getting the wrong feedback. From students because students, instead of doing the work and doing the learning and figuring things out, are just copying, pasting questions from ChatGPT into their assignments and this, and Woody is trying to, is telling us he’s trying to do the right thing and this isn’t working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And even Steve, who’s in like the best possible circumstances, a really experienced, really talented tech director with a really supportive superintendent, really supportive community, cool things happening in their schools. As much good work as he’s doing, I think he still feels like, that he’s just barely taking the first steps that might be needed to get his hands wrapped around this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and in fact, I actually played that Sam Altman tape for him and you know, he, and arguably what Sam Altman describes most closely resembles Westwood and Steve Ouellette, like of all the people we heard from, his story is the closest to Sam Altman’s account of what happened. But this, this is what he had to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette: \u003c/strong>Not to highlight Westwood, but when I talk to my peers in neighboring districts, no one’s doing anything. Like they’re just starting to create, think about creating guidelines. And so, we’re kind of just like building the plane, you know, while we fly it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> For the next 6 episodes, we’re going to hear stories of building the plane as we fly it. We’ll hear from the teachers who are struggling to prevent their students from using ChatGPT to bypass learning and thinking; We’ll talk with students about why they turn to AI to get their work done, and what it feels like to be falsely accused of using AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’ll hear from teachers, students, and school leaders who have found ways to use AI to help them teach or learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in our next episode, what even is generative AI? And why does the so-called “jagged frontier” of this technology make it so challenging when it shows up in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It doesn’t think, it doesn’t understand, it predicts one word at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>That’s next time on the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by me, Jesse Dukes. We had editing from Ruxandra Guidi and Alexandra Salomon. Reporting and research from Holly McDede, Natasha Esteves, Andrew Meriwether, and Chris Bagg. Sound design and music supervision by Steven Jackson. Production support from Yebu Ji. Data analysis from Manee Ngozi Nnamani and Manasa Kudumu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Josh Sheldon, Camila Lee, Liz Hutner, and Eric Klopfer. Administrative support from Jessica Rondon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The research and reporting you heard in this episode was supported by the Spencer Foundation, the Kapor Foundation, the Jameel World Education Lab, the Social and Ethical Responsibility of Computing Initiative at MIT, and the RAISE initiative, Responsible AI for Social Empowerment and Education also at MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, we had support from Google’s Academic Research Awards program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Homework Machine is a production of the Teaching Systems Lab, Justin Reich Director, the lab is located at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, more commonly known to the world as MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://teachlabpodcast.com/\">teachlabpodcast.com\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://tsl.mit.edu/AI\">tsl.mit.edu/AI\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>That was The Homework Machine from MIT’s Teachlab podcast.\u003cbr>\nYou can find the whole series wherever you get your podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next month with a brand new episode of Mindshift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This month MindShift is sharing an episode from MITs TeachLab podcast. Hosts Jessie Dukes and Justin Reich have interviewed teachers, school leaders and students about how the debut of ChatGPT and Generative AI is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve compiled their learnings into a mini series called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">Homework Machine\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3473844164\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey MindShift listeners, It’s Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ve got a special episode to share with you. It’s from our friends at Teach Lab, a podcast about the art and craft of teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their mini series, called The Homework Machine, hosts Jesse Dukes and Justin Reich explore the reactions to AI when it first debuted as a strange new technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll let our friends from Teach Lab take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> This is the Teach Lab podcast, I’m Justin Reich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And I’m Jesse Dukes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Devon O’Neil is a high school social studies teacher in Oregon. Back in 2021, after six years of teaching, she took 2 years off while her husband attended grad school. At MIT actually. And during her break from teaching, she worked designing classroom curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Which is a super cool experience, very different from being in the classroom, and also really reinforced that I wanted to be in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> When she was on her break, O’Neil missed two momentous years for schools. There was a pandemic, remote learning, hybrid learning, returning to school buildings. And when she went back to the classroom, in the fall of 2023, she said, there was some culture shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> It was those two, like super crazy post-Covid years. So I come back, and it’s like, like those movies where the caveman, like defrost or whatever. And they’re like “what is this?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t just that her fellow teachers were harrowed and burned out, while she was fresh and energetic. She also noticed that the student work was, well, different from what she remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> I’d have these really well written paragraphs or snippets that are looked to be very well researched and all this, but not at all on topic. Grammar was off. Even the most brilliant 14-year-old still talks like a 14-year-old and still writes like a 14-year-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, the grammar was oddly good. O’Neil can see her students’ screens, and she sometimes watches them work. And, one day, she noticed they were using an unusual search engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Bing! I was noticing a lot of them were using Bing. To Google stuff, see even to Google stuff. And I was like, that’s the weirdest choice. Who uses Bing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And then, one day, she was watching a student complete a writing assignment in a google doc. And poof, a whole well-written paragraph just appeared. Out of nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Like one minute it’s not there, and one minute it’s there. And, it said like “here are your results”. And they forgot to delete that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And that’s when Devon realized her students were using ChatGPT to complete in class writing assignments. They would copy and paste the questions she would give them into Bing’s Copilot, which was a free way to use ChatGPT. Then, the students copied the answer, sometimes without any editing, right into their google document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil: \u003c/strong>Which is kind of a rookie mistake, like if they’re going to cheat, you want them to cheat a little better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> We first talked to Devon in 2023, just a few weeks after she figured out what was going on. She says that since then, she’s gotten a lot more savvy about ChatGPT. But her experience speaks to how much can, and did, change in schools, in just a couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> In November of 2022, ChatGPT was launched as a free research preview of advanced generative AI, like a pilot, or beta version. Generative AI is a type of artificial intelligence that can create new content, especially text, but also images, videos, and music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ChatGPT is the most famous example of generative AI. There are competitors like Google’s Gemini, Anthropic’s Claude, and the Chinese company, DeepSeek. And rather quickly, students figured out, ChatGPT was pretty good at doing their homework for them. Devon, out of school for two years, working on curriculum, had missed the arrival of the new homework machine. But her students had not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> The arrival of chatGPT, and then fairly quick upgrades with GPT-3.5 and GPT-4 within a couple of years, has been the big story in education technology since the fall of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Waterfall of news stories]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 1: \u003c/strong>So how does it work? Students can drop an assignment into something like ChatGPT, click a button and their homework is done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 2: \u003c/strong>She is talking about ChatGPT. School districts like New York cities are banning it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 3: \u003c/strong>ChatGPT is the new artificial intelligence tool causing a stir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools have scrambled to figure out what to do about ChatGPT. Ban it? Embrace it? Teachers have scrambled to try to get ahead of the “cheating” problem, and to find ways in which AI can support education. Some Students have scrambled to figure out how to use AI without their teachers detecting it. And education technology companies have scrambled to create AI powered ed tech. And have made many promises about how generative AI will transform education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan:\u003c/strong> But I think we’re at the cusp of using AI for probably the biggest positive transformation that education has ever seen, and the way we’re going to do that is by giving every student on the planet an artificially intelligent but amazing personal tutor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My career has been devoted to studying education technology. Over and over again, we’ve seen new technologies emerge in education, and the technology developers will promise, every time, that the new tech will transform and democratize education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan :\u003c/strong>That’s what’s about to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And while the technologies do sometimes help teachers and students, those big transformations to schools, they never happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> But there is something different about Chat GPT and other AI. Throughout history, most education technology has been adopted by schools, who hope it will help them do better work, teaching students. But Generative AI wasn’t invited into schools. Not for the most part. It crashed the party. Even if schools ban it from school laptops, students can often get around that ban, by using Bing, for example. Or they have their own laptop. Or they can access it on their mobile phone, which over 95% of teenagers have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, the kids have access to generative AI. And they’re using it, whether their teachers want them to, or not. That’s having a big impact on schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a little about me, and this project. I am a journalist, and for the past year and a half, I’ve been working with Justin and other colleagues at MIT’s Teaching Systems Lab. We’ve interviewed over 85 teachers and school leaders, and over 35 students about how all of this is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been hearing about why students cheat using AI, what teachers are doing to stop them, and how some teachers and students have found ChatGPT to be helpful for learning. And for the next several weeks, we’re going to share what we’ve learned with you in a mini series we’re calling the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And now, Jesse, who has immersed himself in this research, will be our host and guide for these episodes. Jesse, you can take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Thanks Justin, but not so fast. We’re going to want your historical knowledge about educational technology to help us unpack and contextualize these stories. So stay close, and keep your mic handy. In fact, we’re going to hear from you again in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Sounds good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Alright, well, let’s go back to A beginning: December of 2022. We’ll start with Steve Ouellette. He’s a technology director at the Westwood School district, southwest of Boston. His job includes keeping track of computers and software for the district, but also helping teachers think through how to use technology in their work. He remembers the exact moment he heard about generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> So I think it was, it was December 8th. And I was home sick with Covid. I got an email, I’m on a listserv, you know, with all the tech directors in Massachusetts and I got an email that said: Have AI write your next English paper. The sub caption was: Buckle up, here it comes. And someone had basically shared a video of this thing called ChatGPT, that was generating an essay about, I think it was about Raisin in the Sun. And I was like “What is going on here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Watching the video, Ouellette says he immediately realized that this was a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was, that was a moment. You know, I’ve been in this business since 1993 and I don’t remember having like, a really specific, like, reaction to something the way I did when I saw that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Ouellette emailed the district’s superintendent, and explained the situation to her. There was a new technological tool, available to students, that could do their schoolwork. Pretty effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> And she had no idea what it was. And I explained to her what it was and sent her a link and she shot back to me five minutes later and she’s like, yeah, we need to write about this. And so we, we felt, we both felt this sense of like, urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> The superintendent asked Ouellette to write a memo to the district’s teachers. Ouellette is a technology guy, and out of curiosity and excitement, he decided to experiment. Could ChatGPT draft the memo? He asked ChatGPT to write the first draft and sent it to the superintendent. She read it and told Ouellette, this is pretty formal language, it doesn’t sound like you. Make it more casual sounding. But Ouellette didn’t rewrite the memo himself. He prompted ChatGPT to revise the memo. And he told it: “Make it more conversational.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> I said, you need to write something funny about how, you know France was gonna win the World Cup. And it like, seamlessly incorporated a little like parenthetical thing about, oh by the way, France is gonna win the World Cup. And in the way it did, it was like magnificent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Here’s the memo ChatGPT wrote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ChatGPT: \u003c/strong> ChatGPT could also be used to help students learn other languages, such as Spanish or French (which, by the way, I think will win the 2022 World Cup). Imagine being able to have a conversation with ChatGPT in French and receiving instant corrections and feedback on your pronunciation and grammar. The possibilities are truly endless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Side note, I’m not that impressed with how ChatGPT did with that World Cup joke. It says that “French” will win the world cup, not “France”. But, that aside, they sent the memo out that Monday. Remember, this was December of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next few months, Ouellette formed an AI working group in the district. They brought in a guest speaker. They looked at academic policies. They talked to teachers and students. And by the summer of 2023, they had revised academic integrity guidelines as well as some basic training for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> The goal was to inform staff about what this stuff is, to let them know that there are guidelines, and that if they have students, you know, in grades eight or higher, they can use it with their students. But we also wanted to inform staff how to use it for themselves to make their own work more efficient. The theory behind that is if they’re using it, then they’ll be more informed to use it responsibly with their kids. And it’s nowhere near where what it needs to be. I’ll be the first to admit it, but we did something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> What Westwood did was quite a bit more than most districts. Last fall, a survey found only about one quarter of teachers said their school district had provided any guidance or professional development, about AI. That’s two years after the arrival of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Westwood, the faculty learned about ChatGPT pretty early on. Likely before many of their students heard about it. That was NOT true for other schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> The First Time I heard about ChatGPT was in my English Class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>This is Nanki Kaur. She just graduated from American High School, in Fremont, California. And she heard about ChatGPT from another student back in the spring of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> We were having a conversation about how we were going to approach our research paper assignment that was coming up, and you would have to pick an individual of American significance and prove why they were of American significance and what impact they had. And he was talking about how he just asked this AI platform about how his person of American Significance who was BLEEP, had an impact on America and he got a really strong thesis statement. And he said, I didn’t even have to do anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Now, I bleeped that last bit so this student won’t get in trouble.But the point here, Nanki says the thesis statement was actually pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> And we were all confused and we were like, what are you talking about? Like how did you not have to do anything and how do you have such a strong thesis statement? ’cause we were just learning how to write a thesis statement at that time. And he said, there’s this online platform, it’s driven by artificial intelligence and it just writes it for you and it’s, it’s really thorough.It’s really good. You guys should try it. And so that was the first time I heard about it and I was shocked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Nanki talked with our colleague Holly McDede, a reporter based in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Did you try it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I did go home and try it. Not for the same assignment, but I went home and I looked it up like Chat GPT, OpenAI, what is it? And then I asked it a couple questions like what is the weather like, and if I were to write a story about a certain situation,could you write me a story? And it actually answered all my prompts and it wrote me like a solid paragraph, and so I was shocked. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Nanki says she doesn’t know what the other student did with his thesis statement, but she has a guess:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I think he did turn it in and I don’t know what kind of disciplinary action he got because there wasn’t really much set in stone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Do you suspect he didn’t get any disciplinary action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I do suspect that because he was oddly smug about how well he had done on that assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> As far as Nanki knows, that student didn’t get in any trouble. In fact, she’s not sure the teachers knew about ChatGPT at that point. And Nanki says that the school didn’t seem to catch on that students were using ChatGPT to cheat until the fall of 2023, the next school year. A whole year after ChatGPT launched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nanki says when they did realize what was happening, the school came down hard. Nanki’s AP English teacher held a special class meeting to present the new academic integrity policy, with a list of sanctions if students were caught using Chat GPT or other AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Which included, zeros on the assignments or administrative disciplinary action. And if worse comes to worst, then it would be, suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> At American High School Nanki says their policies didn’t just ban ChatGPT. Students were also told they couldn’t use Grammarly, the grammar check program, or similar AI tools that are often built into students’ browsers. But, the policies weren’t applied consistently. Nanki says her social studies teacher actually encouraged her to use AI for research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Because she said, I think it’s a really good tool to get all the facts in one spot. Obviously, I’m gonna ask you guys to fact check and cross check, make sure that everything is correct. But I think it’s a really great, you know, tool for you guys to use so that you have everything in one place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Was that confusing for you or other students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> It was confusing for me, personally because I was like, I just don’t want to use it at all. Like I don’t even care because I don’t need like this habit. I don’t want it on my computer. I don’t want it anywhere, like I just want it like away from me because I didn’t want to jeopardize any chance of having a good grade in that class or in any of my classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Some 3000 miles away from Nanki, another student had quite a different experience. Woody Goss was wrapping up 8th grade in a public school in the suburbs north of New York city when he spoke to us in the spring of 2024. He says his teachers didn’t really respond to the arrival of ChatGPT. And, that students used AI to get their schoolwork done in almost all of his classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says his science class was the worst. The students all have laptops, but the teacher sits in front of the class, and can’t see what’s on the screens. Woody sits in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> And you can see everybody’s screen and you can see ChatGPT spitting out the text, and you can see them copy and pasting it into their paper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> You could literally see your fellow students using ChatGPT…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss: \u003c/strong> And copying and pasting it, yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> If you could estimate how many people in a classroom of 20 students, how many were using it to cheat in the way you’re describing. How many would you say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> So I’d say that there’s 10 people in that class using it for everything like cheating on, the whole paper is AI, I’d say there’s another 5 that probably half of it’s written by AI, but they do actually read it through and go, “Gee, maybe I don’t wanna include the part that says ‘As a large language model…’” but they like read it through and copy parts and splice bits and do whatever. Then I’d say of, so you’ve got five remaining. I’d say probably 4 of that 5 do the paper legitimately. So there’s 4 people doing it legitimately, and then there’s another one that’s going, and I don’t know, they, it’s kind of a mix, like they plagiarized stuff, but it’s like a paragraph in their entire thing. And I would say, of those 4, I mean, unless you’ve got a really, not a super smart tech kid, I’d say probably all four of those are using AI in some way. It’s just using it appropriately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Woody says that some of his teachers were apparently totally oblivious to generative AI. But not his science teacher. She tried to encourage students to use it in a way that would help them learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> That teacher was really trying, she seemed to grasp the concept that there was AI being used, and she was like, we’re gonna learn how to use AI, legitimately and like how do we use it in our research? And everybody heard, oh, you can use AI in your paper. And they all didn’t actually listen to what she was saying. Please use it as like a secondary source. And they all went, “okay, I’m gonna use ChatGPT to write my paper. “\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Um, do you have any teachers who effectively managed this? You know, either in their…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> No, I have the science teacher really tried. She really, she did actually provide, unlike all the other teachers, she actually provided instruction like, Hey, here’s how we’re gonna use it. Everybody ignored it, but she did try, right? All my other teachers just flat out ignored it the whole year. Um, except for the ELA teacher who said, we’re all writing paper benchmarks, which was a nightmare. That was just…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Why, why was that a nightmare?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> Because I’d say for a lot of us, not, not even including AI, we’re all digital people on Chromebooks. We don’t, we don’t know how to write a paper benchmark, which you could argue is its own problem. But then you had a million kids yelling and screaming about that, because god forbid you have to write a paper benchmark. Eww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, according to Woody, his English teacher made the students write things out by hand, which actually did keep people from using ChatGPT. Although Woody thinks that created other problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people have suggested that Woody doesn’t need to worry. According to him he’s doing his work legitimately. Assuming that’s true, and that the other students are using ChatGPT, then it’ll all come out in the wash. He’ll actually learn what he’s supposed to, and the others won’t, and eventually, that will be obvious, and give him an advantage. Maybe in getting into college, maybe on tests, maybe in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Woody doesn’t see it that way. In his world. Grades matter. Students are under pressure. When students choose to cheat, that can impact how the teachers teach the material. And the pace of learning, which puts even more pressure on the students who are trying to do the work themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s frustrating. It’s a compounding effect. I’d say at the beginning of the year, there weren’t a lot of students using AI, and I’d say it’s shifted as the pacing gets faster, then more kids feel like they need it ’cause they feel like they’re gonna fail if they don’t have it. So it piles on itself, and it also, I was never the fast worker in the class. I can do the work, but I’m like dyslexic anyway, so it takes me forever to do the work anyway. I’d say the number of people not using it, like the number of people holding out and being like, “I’m gonna do my work legitimately” is going down because it’s just, there’s no room for, especially in the district where I am, where a lot of, we’re very grade grubby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s expected, like you gotta have an A in every class. So everybody is, “I gotta get that A, I gotta get this assignment in on time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> All right. I’d like to bring Justin Reich back to the program. Justin has studied technology in schools over the decades, and he can help us make sense of the stories we just heard. Welcome back Justin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me, Jesse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So the interviews that I shared took place over a year ago, and we’re now coming up on 3 years since ChatGPT was unveiled in November of 2022. So I’m curious what overall reactions you’re having as you listen back to these stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, the first thing it makes me think of is something that we’ve talked about before, which is just this idea of instantaneous arrival is so unusual for an education technology. I mean, the joke we make sometimes is that, you know, “no kid ever dragged their own smart board into a classroom”. Typically education technology was purchased by schools, and that meant the schools could have at least something of a plan before they gave all their teachers online grade books, or they bought all their kids’ Chromebooks, or they bought all their kids’ iPads, or whatever else it is. But there is zero time for planning. There’s zero time for preparation. You know, Steve Ouellette says, “This is urgent”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just, there’s something which is happening right now and we need to deal with it. And then schools have really different capacities to deal with that. So an affluent place like Westwood, where they probably have recovered pretty well from the pandemic where things are feeling like they’re back on track, they probably have plenty of resources to hire substitute teachers, you know, the population of kids they serve have all kinds of challenges, but not nearly, the challenges they might encounter in some of their urban neighborhoods nearby or rural neighborhoods out west. They’re in a good place to be able to say, “Oh, we’ve, I’ve got some extra time to be able to manage this. Like, let’s get started.” Let’s, you know, teachers have extra time to be on the working group, “Let’s get started working on this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For, at other places, many, many schools in November 2022, in the spring of 2023, were still drowning in the challenges of chronic absenteeism of learning, loss of school that felt like it really hadn’t bounced back yet. And so this new thing shows up, and not every school in the country is on the same footing in figuring out how to deal with it. But of course, even if a school doesn’t have an institutional plan to deal with it, every teacher has to deal with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Ms O’Neill walks into her classroom and all of her students are using Bing. And she goes, well, you know, Bing! Bing is the web browser that you use to download Google Chrome, so you can never have to use Bing again. Why are all my students using Bing on a Chromebook? Like none of this makes sense. And what a great story, to remind us how significantly and quickly things changed and how there was no choice to postpone this. There was no way to say, ah, “ we’ll just buy, maybe we’ll buy the smart boards, but we’ll buy them next year, or we’ll buy them two years after that. Let’s just work on other stuff for now.” You, as an educator, had this in your classroom and had to decide what you were gonna do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Well, speaking of no option to postpone, I wanna play you something that Sam Altman said about all of this back in 2023. You know that Sam Altman was one of the founders of OpenAI, the company responsible for ChatGPT. And he’s the CEO. You may remember he was actually ousted from the company briefly and then reinstated in an episode they’re now calling the blip, and one thing he’s gotten some criticism for is just releasing new versions of ChatGPT out into the world, arguably without a lot of thought about what impact that might have or without a lot of support for institutions like schools that might be impacted by AI. And in 2023, the hosts of the New York Times podcast, Hard Fork asked him about that. And here’s what he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman:\u003c/strong> You know, one example that I mean is instructive because it was the first and the loudest is what happened with ChatGPT and education. Days, at least weeks. But I think days after the release of ChatGPT school districts were like falling all over themselves to ban ChatGPT. And that didn’t really surprise us, like that we could have predicted and did predict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The thing that happened after that quickly was, you know, like weeks to months, was school districts and teachers saying, Hey, actually we made a mistake and this is really important part of the future of education and the benefits far outweigh the downside. And not only are we banning it, we’re encouraging our teachers to make use of it in the classroom. We’re encouraging our students to get really good at this tool because it’s gonna be part of the way people live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, you know, then there was like a big discussion about what, what the kind of path forward should be. And that is just not something that could have happened without releasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>So Justin, you were paying pretty close attention in 2022 and 2023 when ChatGPT was first unleashed upon schools. Do you think Altman’s account is historically accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I actually got to hear Sam Altman give some version of this because he came to MIT, not long after November, 2022, gave a talk that was facilitated by Sally Kornbluth, our president. And he said something along the lines, I think the question was something like, you know, where are there big wins for ChatGPT? And he was like, well, education’s a slam dunk. This is a place where very obviously, we’re seeing benefits, not really seeing any downsides. Things are just immediately improving society. So this is gonna be a fast win for us. And yeah, you know, it’s, it’s delusional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not at all connected to what is actually happening in reality in schools. I’m sure some of it is, if I built a technology product, I’d be pretty excited to hear the voices of people who are happy with it. You know, people in powerful places don’t always have great sources of information about what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes : \u003c/strong>And, and everything he says has a kind of factual basis to it, but it adds up to a kind of orderly picture of what happens, that to me doesn’t really reflect the chaos that educators were experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Also, if you just know something about schools, this idea that, like, “as soon as it was released they were all doing something”, it’s like, no, that’s not how schools work. And then “really quickly after doing it, they reverse themselves” and you’re like, no, you do not under- like, schools are carrier fleets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools are super tankers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Schools are super tankers. Like when they turn, they turn slowly and they turn with inertia. And when they go back it takes a lot of time to move that backwards, but even just in the handful of stories that we heard,we heard from a couple of students, one teacher who said there was nothing happening in their schools. It wasn’t being banned, it wasn’t being encouraged. Teachers were kind of figuring out on their own what to do with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I mean, if you talk to teachers and students, it’s not very hard to get stories where you get the sense of like, oh, this is not an unambiguously good thing. Like this is making Nanki nervous because pretty clearly students are using this to bypass their learning in ways that they shouldn’t. Woody is really concerned that his classes are moving faster than they’re supposed to because teachers are getting the wrong feedback. From students because students, instead of doing the work and doing the learning and figuring things out, are just copying, pasting questions from ChatGPT into their assignments and this, and Woody is trying to, is telling us he’s trying to do the right thing and this isn’t working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And even Steve, who’s in like the best possible circumstances, a really experienced, really talented tech director with a really supportive superintendent, really supportive community, cool things happening in their schools. As much good work as he’s doing, I think he still feels like, that he’s just barely taking the first steps that might be needed to get his hands wrapped around this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and in fact, I actually played that Sam Altman tape for him and you know, he, and arguably what Sam Altman describes most closely resembles Westwood and Steve Ouellette, like of all the people we heard from, his story is the closest to Sam Altman’s account of what happened. But this, this is what he had to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette: \u003c/strong>Not to highlight Westwood, but when I talk to my peers in neighboring districts, no one’s doing anything. Like they’re just starting to create, think about creating guidelines. And so, we’re kind of just like building the plane, you know, while we fly it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> For the next 6 episodes, we’re going to hear stories of building the plane as we fly it. We’ll hear from the teachers who are struggling to prevent their students from using ChatGPT to bypass learning and thinking; We’ll talk with students about why they turn to AI to get their work done, and what it feels like to be falsely accused of using AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’ll hear from teachers, students, and school leaders who have found ways to use AI to help them teach or learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in our next episode, what even is generative AI? And why does the so-called “jagged frontier” of this technology make it so challenging when it shows up in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It doesn’t think, it doesn’t understand, it predicts one word at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>That’s next time on the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by me, Jesse Dukes. We had editing from Ruxandra Guidi and Alexandra Salomon. Reporting and research from Holly McDede, Natasha Esteves, Andrew Meriwether, and Chris Bagg. Sound design and music supervision by Steven Jackson. Production support from Yebu Ji. Data analysis from Manee Ngozi Nnamani and Manasa Kudumu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Josh Sheldon, Camila Lee, Liz Hutner, and Eric Klopfer. Administrative support from Jessica Rondon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The research and reporting you heard in this episode was supported by the Spencer Foundation, the Kapor Foundation, the Jameel World Education Lab, the Social and Ethical Responsibility of Computing Initiative at MIT, and the RAISE initiative, Responsible AI for Social Empowerment and Education also at MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, we had support from Google’s Academic Research Awards program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Homework Machine is a production of the Teaching Systems Lab, Justin Reich Director, the lab is located at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, more commonly known to the world as MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://teachlabpodcast.com/\">teachlabpodcast.com\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://tsl.mit.edu/AI\">tsl.mit.edu/AI\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>That was The Homework Machine from MIT’s Teachlab podcast.\u003cbr>\nYou can find the whole series wherever you get your podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next month with a brand new episode of Mindshift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
"airtime": "SUN 9pm-10pm",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"id": "here-and-now",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
"subscribe": {
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Hidden-Brain-p787503/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/xtTd",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
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},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e0c2d153-ad36-4c8d-901d-f1da6a724824/political-breakdown",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/572155894/political-breakdown",
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