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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent years, public interest in school boards has dropped, and what we do hear about usually has to do with a meeting gone rogue. And voter turnout for school board elections remains really low at an average of about 10 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott R. Levy, a lecturer at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, argues that this is an issue worth paying attention to because restoring power to school boards would hold the answer to public education reform and create true positive change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levy spent the first 20 years of his professional career as an investment banker, but he left his job on Wall Street after volunteering at his kids’ public school. That’s where he fell in love with the world of school governance. In 2015 he won his first elected seat on a school board, a seat that he held for the next 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode we discuss his new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262552721/why-school-boards-matter/\">Why School Boards Matter: Reclaiming The Heart of American Education and Democracy.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5042213997\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So just to get us launched into the topic, can you give me a brief and basic explanation of the configuration and function of a school board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Sure. So think of the board as a governance body. The board is not supposed to be running the schools day to day. Anytime you see a board member as a person running the school day to day, that’s a problem. They’re there to oversee budget allocation and to think about policy and think about strategic priorities and to ultimately choose a superintendent and then manage the superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s safe to say that there are very few people that are doing school board service for the money because it really is a labor of love. Board members come from all walks of life. There’s really no requirements per se, other than you have to be 18 years old in most places. You have to be a citizen and be able to vote and you have to certainly have residency in that community. So there are some restrictions, but otherwise it’s open to anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to have a student in the public schools. It could be that their kids attend private school. There aren’t rules around that. And so it’s really meant to be little “d” democracy. It’s whoever the public believes should be in that seat. In a school board, you really don’t have power over who’s serving with you. It’s decided by the public as it should be through the voting process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You state in the introduction of your book that school boards are the vital organ for education decision making. Why do you think that there seems to be this broad lack of awareness or misunderstanding about how a school board might serve the public?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ll tell you a story about when I first won my local election and became a school board member. I was walking down the street in my town and I got stopped by somebody that I knew. And they came up to me and they said, “Oh, congratulations, Scott. I heard you won the school board race. And that’s great because I’m going to be watching you on the web because, you know, the meetings are streamed so that any citizen can watch the meetings.” And I was really excited. I’m like, “wow, somebody actually watches these meetings.” And then he went on to say, yeah, yeah. I’ve been having trouble falling asleep. And so it’s super helpful to watch these meetings, because they’re really boring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many board meetings are somewhat routine. And that may be why there’s not a lot of attention on it. You’re going through budget line items, and it’s very technical. But I think, certainly, things changed in 2020 when COVID hit. And there were a lot of extremely important decisions that had to be made, and they had to be made very quickly. And they were decisions that there was a lot of attention over. And so the spotlight started to shine on school board rooms where a lot of these debates were happening. And then ever since 2020, there have been this constant stream of issues that have been adjudicated in boardrooms that have gotten a lot of attention.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think now people have more awareness, but having said that, people are, I think, generally focused on the clips that we may see on social media that sometimes have millions of hits where there’s arguments and they’re talking about really contentious cultural issues that divide us. But at the end of the day, if you walk into most school board meetings, whether it’s policy, budget. High level curriculum decisions, you’re focusing on various programs and initiatives. That’s what most of the discussion will be about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s the gist that I get. I’ve seen those viral moments online, but when I have clicked into a live stream of a school board meeting, it is probably what most might say is a mundane meeting of a couple folks in the room trying to make decisions. Maybe a couple people show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s only recent, and when I say recent, recent in American history that school boards have lost some of their power, sometimes due to school reform policy. Can you explain some of that historical significance of this loss of power and where the power that school boards used to hold has now been delegated to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s so interesting when you look back to early American history, school boards existed and they did absolutely everything. The states would ultimately have power to be responsible for public education, but they delegated authority to school boards to not only govern the schools, but even do the administration work because back in early days there was not even a superintendency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now in the days that we’ve seen of the 21st century, to your point, there’s been an incredible shift of power to states, mostly, and to some extent, the federal government. And there’s some really good and legitimate reasons for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Think about Brown versus Board of Education, where from a civil rights perspective, the federal judiciary decided to step in and make things right because it wasn’t happening correctly at the local level and there was inequity. Think about the way schools are funded, which historically was property taxes, where in many states there were communities that just simply could not fund the public schools to any sort of a basic level. So in many respects, there were a series of lawsuits that came about that really, you know, demanded that the state step in and be that equilibrating mechanism to fund schools to a level where students are getting a very appropriate public education, regardless of where they live. And so there are a lot of good reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are also probably some more sinister reasons. Education is a very large component of our economy. People care deeply about education. It affects a lot of families. And so certainly governors, legislators at the state level and at the federal level, look at that and say, ooh, maybe I should also be charged with having a role in education. So a lot the power has shifted to state and federal players. So I think we all need to step back and think about the fact of whether or not we agree with the particular approach any state is taking. Is that the right mechanism to have all that happen at the state level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I also just wanted to ask you very quickly about the power that school boards hold after the dismantling of the Department of Education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>I think there’s been a general sense that when certainly the current administration, the Trump administration, they were campaigning, they’re campaigning on pushing a lot of power back to states and localities, which in many respects would be commensurate with my thesis of how local districts should have a degree of autonomy. And boards are really important and can do a lot of good in trying to steer American education in a positive direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think what we’ve certainly seen over the last bunch of months is a continuation of the fact that the federal government is quite involved. So regardless of what we hear about the Department of Education shrinking or potentially being abolished, we’ve seen examples of where the federal government has certainly exerted power in places that they see something they don’t like. And I think that’s what we’ve seen in many administrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> I wanted to ask about education reform policy and some of the tensions that we see between these big reforms that might happen, one that just always sticks in my mind as common core. What would you say to someone, and I’m talking about voters, who believe that reform policy is the way forward and have kind of lost faith in the school board as an institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>The first thing I would say is that school boards are far from perfect. And there are many boards that certainly make decisions that many of us may look at and say are flawed. And I think there’s no perfect system to govern schools. Having said all that, I think in my mind, school boards are the place where governance can happen in a way that involves the community. And also provides a deep understanding of the district itself, because school boards are part of the districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, districts are very different in this country and they don’t have the same problems. You may have a district that has enrollment that’s dramatically increasing. You may have a district next door that has declining enrollment. That means incredibly different things in terms of how to manage a budget, how to manage operations, how to manage personnel. You could have a district in the same county that is in the 99th percentile in academic outcomes but has a stress and anxiety issue in their high school. And then the district next door might be below proficiency in math and reading. And you need to think about solutions that are very different in those two schools. And it’s extremely hard, I think, to come up with good one-size-fits-all policies that are gonna solve all our problems. And if you do, inevitably, you’re going to hit a roadblock.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the local communities aren’t vested in these programs, in these policies, and we see time and time again, Common Core being an example where it backfires. Because I think it’s so important to have people on the ground that are going to be affected be part of the process to come up with, ultimately, the solutions. And so that’s why I keep coming back to the fact that with all of its flaws, school boards are places that I think we should invest in. So if we started to focus our reform attention there, I actually think we could do a lot of good. And the funny thing is that reformers have looked at every place in the universe except for school boards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You brought up something that kind of reminded me of a huge issue that I hear from, and I think a lot of people have heard from educators when it comes to education reform policy is that the experts who are the teachers in the classroom are not being consulted for these massive changes, or they are not been consulted in the ways that, you know, I think most of them would feel is appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about the partnership that teachers and educators might have with school boards on the granular level where teachers don’t have to remain in this frustrated state of not seeing any change or not seeing any trust in their expertise or professionalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Yes. And I will start by saying that my mom was a kindergarten teacher in public school for over 30 years and I talked to her a lot about what her experience was like when I first became a school board member and ever since then I’ve looked at a lot of the research on teacher attrition and teacher satisfaction which should trouble all of us because the numbers are as we know not what they should be for a profession that’s so noble and and so important. And I think that one of the things that always comes out of studies that are done is the lack of autonomy that teachers feel, to your point, that their expertise isn’t valued, that they don’t have a say over what they’re doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of things that I talk about in my book is initiative fatigue. And it’s something that I always knew about because corporations have initiative fatigue, but when I got to education and my mom told me about this, I realized it was at a different level. And by the time you get to a classroom, if you think about all of the people that throw initiatives at schools, you have federal initiatives, you have state legislative initiatives, you have governors that come in with initiatives, every state has of course a regulatory body, a state school board in New York State and California, we have the regions, and they have initiatives. Then you have board members and the board as a whole that have initiatives, you have administrators at the centralized level, and then of course you have building administrators. And so that’s true. It’s very suffocating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so one of the things I talk about is how, again, if we try to be mindful of getting a better balance between state, federal, and local control, where the local governance entity does have more say over initiative flow, and then you had boards that were thoughtful about having a reasonable number of initiatives at any one time, I think naturally what’s gonna happen is that teachers have a better voice. Because a good board knows that board members are not professional educators and boards have to listen to administrators and teachers in their district. When decisions are made up above, it’s incredibly hard. You might have a committee of a teacher from here and a teacher from there, but we know that it’s not a grassroots effort when a decision’s made at a state or even a national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what it takes to establish and maintain that relationship between local teachers and the school board? What does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>With teachers in particular, if you think about it, boards often have committees, and committees might have representation of teachers and of administrators from different buildings. That’s one way that there could be a really good dialog. There’s often groups like, for instance, the PTA, where you’ll have teachers, and you’ll have parents together, and board members can be a liaison to that group or present, and update on what’s going on at the district level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In many districts, there’s a tradition of board members visiting schools once a year. So you get to maybe go into a classroom and see what’s going on. You would never do that every day, but to do that, to get a sense and a flavor for what’s happening in classrooms, that’s an amazing way to do it as well. Some districts have maybe the board president address teachers once a year. And that’s a really interesting and helpful way, I think also to build a relationship. So there are many ways and it’s important. It’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>So we just talked about partnership between educators and school boards, and you do say in your book that school boards are a mechanism for parent influence. Can you explain that mechanism, what that might look like coming from a parent who has maybe never voted in a local election, seeing an issue with their school and then becoming involved? What does that pathway look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So one of the things that I did, which I think was the most fun when I was researching for the book was I went back into the archives and I did ask the question, it seems like there are so many scenes around the country of very angry parents really yelling and screaming at school boards, has it always been this way or is this something new? And there’s no doubt what I found when you look back is that there have always been points in history where you’ve seen parent anger come out. And I think there’s a very natural question that underlies all of these battles, which is where is the line between parent rights and government control? And I do think that sometimes we’re very quick to either dismiss or to re-emphasize some parent point that is being espoused. But all of us, if we sat in the room and we polled 10 of us, let’s say, and we said, okay, where is that line? We might delineate that line at a slightly different point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you go back to the early 1900s, and I do this in my book, and it’s quite extraordinary, you could see the same exact language being used by parents at school board meetings saying, you can’t vaccinate my kids. If you vaccinate, my kids, you’re violating my rights and their rights, and you’re evaluating my constitutional rights. And they were doing that over the smallpox vaccine. And during COVID, we saw the same thing around the COVID vaccine. And that’s just one example. And so throughout American history, we’ve had this tension. So I think it’s very natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the other bit of tension is indoctrination versus education. Where is that line? And so I think we just have to have a little bit of grace in a way. And I think, the best we could do is say that sometimes people are going to be disagreeing on these subjects. And how do we want to resolve them? I think there’s no better way than with full transparency. In your local community. I think the other piece of your question, though, is if I’m a parent and I’m angry about something, what do I do? Start out, if it’s an issue in a classroom, with the teacher. Go to the teacher, have a conversation, and if that doesn’t work and you’re not satisfied, of course you have the right to talk to the principal or talk to the assistant principal. And if you’re still very unsatisfied, then you can bring it up, but you really don’t want to jump to the school board over the backs of many teachers, administrators that then will not have a chance to solve that problem with you first. If it’s an issue about, let’s say policy or budget allocation that clearly falls in the realm of the board, then of course, um, you have every right to go to the board, but you can also call a board member. If you see a board member at a soccer match or in church, you can certainly have discussions about things that are on your mind and air them, and then of course you have that right to be part of the public comment period too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the other thing that I would also add which is I think something that you always have to think about when you’re a school board member is If somebody comes to public comment and they express concern about a particular issue You always want to listen. It’s incredibly important to listen and to decide, um, you know whether you understand that viewpoint whether you agree with that viewpoint or not, but you don’t know for sure whether or not that viewpoint is 1% of your community or whether it represents 65% of your community. And I just believe that you have to be in touch with your community in lots of different ways and just have lots of data points so that you do get a sense of what the sentiment is like out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Also, speaking of parent influence, we’ve seen a lot of what I think would have been referred to as fringe movements of charter schools and homeschooling. We’re seeing that become a lot more mainstream, not just to talk about, but to practice. And obviously, the system of charter schools is becoming heavily influenced by school systems and there is a relationship between school boards. Charter schools, and also homeschooling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So can you kind of explain some of the influence or partnership that school boards have on those types of systems, and what people and voters can pay attention to when it comes to those educational practices?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Particularly with charter schools, the rules are different depending on what state you’re in. And sometimes school boards have a very influential role in whether or not a charter school can exist. And in other cases, the school board may have absolutely no power and no say. And really what happens is the charter decision is made more centrally at the state level by maybe the state board or one of the state entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I also think that there are a lot of interesting implications when you think about this long term. And I’ll give you one case study that happened in New York that I think could be an interesting microcosm of the situation that can happen in other parts of the country if you fast forward 10, 20 years from now and school choice and vouchers become more commonplace. And it’s actually a district that I attended when I was a kid and now is governed by board, the majority of whom send their kids to private school and it’s created an incredibly complex situation where there is a tremendous rift and rift is an understatement between the public school community and the private school community around the way the public district is being managed. On the one hand these are people that pay taxes and they have every right to, you know, run for school board and they’re winning the elections fair and square. On the other hand, you have individuals that are making decisions about a public school system, where many in the public school community argue are not in the best interest of public school students. And so there’s just incredible amounts of tension. And so you can see this being something that could happen in many communities down the road, if we have many, many more students that are not in the public system, and you might have the preponderance of voters that are in the not public system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanted to end on something that maybe is a little bit uplifting and positive and what you hope to see. Who should care about school boards or how should they care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So to end on a positive note, I think that one thing that I would think that all listeners may agree with is that when we look at our national politics, regardless of what side you’re on, I think it is clear that we have more polarization than we’ve ever had in recent history. And I do believe that when we look at local school districts, the reason that everybody should care is because they are a mechanism to potentially reduce polarization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the one hand, I know we see these scenes of people fighting in boardrooms here, like, how could they reduce polarization? It looks like boardrooms are incredibly polarized. But I would contend that they are the one place where people that have differences of opinion actually come together in person. And because everything is transparent and because local community members have a voice at the microphone, people can actually express their view. And if that view is diametrically different, others have to listen. And there is something incredibly American about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think that there’s this healing process in the fact that we can unify around what happens in a school board room, which is that people of all walks of life that have very different political beliefs can come express their view and have to be listened to. And maybe, just maybe we can realize that sometimes people with very opposing views from a policy perspective might be both coming from a good place, it’s just different places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This does seem like a giant lesson in civics. I really appreciate your time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s my pleasure being with you.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In recent years, public interest in school boards has dropped, and what we do hear about usually has to do with a meeting gone rogue. And voter turnout for school board elections remains really low at an average of about 10 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott R. Levy, a lecturer at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, argues that this is an issue worth paying attention to because restoring power to school boards would hold the answer to public education reform and create true positive change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levy spent the first 20 years of his professional career as an investment banker, but he left his job on Wall Street after volunteering at his kids’ public school. That’s where he fell in love with the world of school governance. In 2015 he won his first elected seat on a school board, a seat that he held for the next 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode we discuss his new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262552721/why-school-boards-matter/\">Why School Boards Matter: Reclaiming The Heart of American Education and Democracy.\u003c/a>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5042213997\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So just to get us launched into the topic, can you give me a brief and basic explanation of the configuration and function of a school board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Sure. So think of the board as a governance body. The board is not supposed to be running the schools day to day. Anytime you see a board member as a person running the school day to day, that’s a problem. They’re there to oversee budget allocation and to think about policy and think about strategic priorities and to ultimately choose a superintendent and then manage the superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s safe to say that there are very few people that are doing school board service for the money because it really is a labor of love. Board members come from all walks of life. There’s really no requirements per se, other than you have to be 18 years old in most places. You have to be a citizen and be able to vote and you have to certainly have residency in that community. So there are some restrictions, but otherwise it’s open to anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to have a student in the public schools. It could be that their kids attend private school. There aren’t rules around that. And so it’s really meant to be little “d” democracy. It’s whoever the public believes should be in that seat. In a school board, you really don’t have power over who’s serving with you. It’s decided by the public as it should be through the voting process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You state in the introduction of your book that school boards are the vital organ for education decision making. Why do you think that there seems to be this broad lack of awareness or misunderstanding about how a school board might serve the public?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ll tell you a story about when I first won my local election and became a school board member. I was walking down the street in my town and I got stopped by somebody that I knew. And they came up to me and they said, “Oh, congratulations, Scott. I heard you won the school board race. And that’s great because I’m going to be watching you on the web because, you know, the meetings are streamed so that any citizen can watch the meetings.” And I was really excited. I’m like, “wow, somebody actually watches these meetings.” And then he went on to say, yeah, yeah. I’ve been having trouble falling asleep. And so it’s super helpful to watch these meetings, because they’re really boring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And many board meetings are somewhat routine. And that may be why there’s not a lot of attention on it. You’re going through budget line items, and it’s very technical. But I think, certainly, things changed in 2020 when COVID hit. And there were a lot of extremely important decisions that had to be made, and they had to be made very quickly. And they were decisions that there was a lot of attention over. And so the spotlight started to shine on school board rooms where a lot of these debates were happening. And then ever since 2020, there have been this constant stream of issues that have been adjudicated in boardrooms that have gotten a lot of attention.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think now people have more awareness, but having said that, people are, I think, generally focused on the clips that we may see on social media that sometimes have millions of hits where there’s arguments and they’re talking about really contentious cultural issues that divide us. But at the end of the day, if you walk into most school board meetings, whether it’s policy, budget. High level curriculum decisions, you’re focusing on various programs and initiatives. That’s what most of the discussion will be about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s the gist that I get. I’ve seen those viral moments online, but when I have clicked into a live stream of a school board meeting, it is probably what most might say is a mundane meeting of a couple folks in the room trying to make decisions. Maybe a couple people show up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s only recent, and when I say recent, recent in American history that school boards have lost some of their power, sometimes due to school reform policy. Can you explain some of that historical significance of this loss of power and where the power that school boards used to hold has now been delegated to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s so interesting when you look back to early American history, school boards existed and they did absolutely everything. The states would ultimately have power to be responsible for public education, but they delegated authority to school boards to not only govern the schools, but even do the administration work because back in early days there was not even a superintendency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now in the days that we’ve seen of the 21st century, to your point, there’s been an incredible shift of power to states, mostly, and to some extent, the federal government. And there’s some really good and legitimate reasons for this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Think about Brown versus Board of Education, where from a civil rights perspective, the federal judiciary decided to step in and make things right because it wasn’t happening correctly at the local level and there was inequity. Think about the way schools are funded, which historically was property taxes, where in many states there were communities that just simply could not fund the public schools to any sort of a basic level. So in many respects, there were a series of lawsuits that came about that really, you know, demanded that the state step in and be that equilibrating mechanism to fund schools to a level where students are getting a very appropriate public education, regardless of where they live. And so there are a lot of good reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are also probably some more sinister reasons. Education is a very large component of our economy. People care deeply about education. It affects a lot of families. And so certainly governors, legislators at the state level and at the federal level, look at that and say, ooh, maybe I should also be charged with having a role in education. So a lot the power has shifted to state and federal players. So I think we all need to step back and think about the fact of whether or not we agree with the particular approach any state is taking. Is that the right mechanism to have all that happen at the state level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I also just wanted to ask you very quickly about the power that school boards hold after the dismantling of the Department of Education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>I think there’s been a general sense that when certainly the current administration, the Trump administration, they were campaigning, they’re campaigning on pushing a lot of power back to states and localities, which in many respects would be commensurate with my thesis of how local districts should have a degree of autonomy. And boards are really important and can do a lot of good in trying to steer American education in a positive direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think what we’ve certainly seen over the last bunch of months is a continuation of the fact that the federal government is quite involved. So regardless of what we hear about the Department of Education shrinking or potentially being abolished, we’ve seen examples of where the federal government has certainly exerted power in places that they see something they don’t like. And I think that’s what we’ve seen in many administrations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> I wanted to ask about education reform policy and some of the tensions that we see between these big reforms that might happen, one that just always sticks in my mind as common core. What would you say to someone, and I’m talking about voters, who believe that reform policy is the way forward and have kind of lost faith in the school board as an institution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>The first thing I would say is that school boards are far from perfect. And there are many boards that certainly make decisions that many of us may look at and say are flawed. And I think there’s no perfect system to govern schools. Having said all that, I think in my mind, school boards are the place where governance can happen in a way that involves the community. And also provides a deep understanding of the district itself, because school boards are part of the districts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, districts are very different in this country and they don’t have the same problems. You may have a district that has enrollment that’s dramatically increasing. You may have a district next door that has declining enrollment. That means incredibly different things in terms of how to manage a budget, how to manage operations, how to manage personnel. You could have a district in the same county that is in the 99th percentile in academic outcomes but has a stress and anxiety issue in their high school. And then the district next door might be below proficiency in math and reading. And you need to think about solutions that are very different in those two schools. And it’s extremely hard, I think, to come up with good one-size-fits-all policies that are gonna solve all our problems. And if you do, inevitably, you’re going to hit a roadblock.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the local communities aren’t vested in these programs, in these policies, and we see time and time again, Common Core being an example where it backfires. Because I think it’s so important to have people on the ground that are going to be affected be part of the process to come up with, ultimately, the solutions. And so that’s why I keep coming back to the fact that with all of its flaws, school boards are places that I think we should invest in. So if we started to focus our reform attention there, I actually think we could do a lot of good. And the funny thing is that reformers have looked at every place in the universe except for school boards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>You brought up something that kind of reminded me of a huge issue that I hear from, and I think a lot of people have heard from educators when it comes to education reform policy is that the experts who are the teachers in the classroom are not being consulted for these massive changes, or they are not been consulted in the ways that, you know, I think most of them would feel is appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about the partnership that teachers and educators might have with school boards on the granular level where teachers don’t have to remain in this frustrated state of not seeing any change or not seeing any trust in their expertise or professionalism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Yes. And I will start by saying that my mom was a kindergarten teacher in public school for over 30 years and I talked to her a lot about what her experience was like when I first became a school board member and ever since then I’ve looked at a lot of the research on teacher attrition and teacher satisfaction which should trouble all of us because the numbers are as we know not what they should be for a profession that’s so noble and and so important. And I think that one of the things that always comes out of studies that are done is the lack of autonomy that teachers feel, to your point, that their expertise isn’t valued, that they don’t have a say over what they’re doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of things that I talk about in my book is initiative fatigue. And it’s something that I always knew about because corporations have initiative fatigue, but when I got to education and my mom told me about this, I realized it was at a different level. And by the time you get to a classroom, if you think about all of the people that throw initiatives at schools, you have federal initiatives, you have state legislative initiatives, you have governors that come in with initiatives, every state has of course a regulatory body, a state school board in New York State and California, we have the regions, and they have initiatives. Then you have board members and the board as a whole that have initiatives, you have administrators at the centralized level, and then of course you have building administrators. And so that’s true. It’s very suffocating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so one of the things I talk about is how, again, if we try to be mindful of getting a better balance between state, federal, and local control, where the local governance entity does have more say over initiative flow, and then you had boards that were thoughtful about having a reasonable number of initiatives at any one time, I think naturally what’s gonna happen is that teachers have a better voice. Because a good board knows that board members are not professional educators and boards have to listen to administrators and teachers in their district. When decisions are made up above, it’s incredibly hard. You might have a committee of a teacher from here and a teacher from there, but we know that it’s not a grassroots effort when a decision’s made at a state or even a national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what it takes to establish and maintain that relationship between local teachers and the school board? What does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>With teachers in particular, if you think about it, boards often have committees, and committees might have representation of teachers and of administrators from different buildings. That’s one way that there could be a really good dialog. There’s often groups like, for instance, the PTA, where you’ll have teachers, and you’ll have parents together, and board members can be a liaison to that group or present, and update on what’s going on at the district level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In many districts, there’s a tradition of board members visiting schools once a year. So you get to maybe go into a classroom and see what’s going on. You would never do that every day, but to do that, to get a sense and a flavor for what’s happening in classrooms, that’s an amazing way to do it as well. Some districts have maybe the board president address teachers once a year. And that’s a really interesting and helpful way, I think also to build a relationship. So there are many ways and it’s important. It’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>So we just talked about partnership between educators and school boards, and you do say in your book that school boards are a mechanism for parent influence. Can you explain that mechanism, what that might look like coming from a parent who has maybe never voted in a local election, seeing an issue with their school and then becoming involved? What does that pathway look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So one of the things that I did, which I think was the most fun when I was researching for the book was I went back into the archives and I did ask the question, it seems like there are so many scenes around the country of very angry parents really yelling and screaming at school boards, has it always been this way or is this something new? And there’s no doubt what I found when you look back is that there have always been points in history where you’ve seen parent anger come out. And I think there’s a very natural question that underlies all of these battles, which is where is the line between parent rights and government control? And I do think that sometimes we’re very quick to either dismiss or to re-emphasize some parent point that is being espoused. But all of us, if we sat in the room and we polled 10 of us, let’s say, and we said, okay, where is that line? We might delineate that line at a slightly different point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So if you go back to the early 1900s, and I do this in my book, and it’s quite extraordinary, you could see the same exact language being used by parents at school board meetings saying, you can’t vaccinate my kids. If you vaccinate, my kids, you’re violating my rights and their rights, and you’re evaluating my constitutional rights. And they were doing that over the smallpox vaccine. And during COVID, we saw the same thing around the COVID vaccine. And that’s just one example. And so throughout American history, we’ve had this tension. So I think it’s very natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the other bit of tension is indoctrination versus education. Where is that line? And so I think we just have to have a little bit of grace in a way. And I think, the best we could do is say that sometimes people are going to be disagreeing on these subjects. And how do we want to resolve them? I think there’s no better way than with full transparency. In your local community. I think the other piece of your question, though, is if I’m a parent and I’m angry about something, what do I do? Start out, if it’s an issue in a classroom, with the teacher. Go to the teacher, have a conversation, and if that doesn’t work and you’re not satisfied, of course you have the right to talk to the principal or talk to the assistant principal. And if you’re still very unsatisfied, then you can bring it up, but you really don’t want to jump to the school board over the backs of many teachers, administrators that then will not have a chance to solve that problem with you first. If it’s an issue about, let’s say policy or budget allocation that clearly falls in the realm of the board, then of course, um, you have every right to go to the board, but you can also call a board member. If you see a board member at a soccer match or in church, you can certainly have discussions about things that are on your mind and air them, and then of course you have that right to be part of the public comment period too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the other thing that I would also add which is I think something that you always have to think about when you’re a school board member is If somebody comes to public comment and they express concern about a particular issue You always want to listen. It’s incredibly important to listen and to decide, um, you know whether you understand that viewpoint whether you agree with that viewpoint or not, but you don’t know for sure whether or not that viewpoint is 1% of your community or whether it represents 65% of your community. And I just believe that you have to be in touch with your community in lots of different ways and just have lots of data points so that you do get a sense of what the sentiment is like out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Also, speaking of parent influence, we’ve seen a lot of what I think would have been referred to as fringe movements of charter schools and homeschooling. We’re seeing that become a lot more mainstream, not just to talk about, but to practice. And obviously, the system of charter schools is becoming heavily influenced by school systems and there is a relationship between school boards. Charter schools, and also homeschooling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So can you kind of explain some of the influence or partnership that school boards have on those types of systems, and what people and voters can pay attention to when it comes to those educational practices?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> Particularly with charter schools, the rules are different depending on what state you’re in. And sometimes school boards have a very influential role in whether or not a charter school can exist. And in other cases, the school board may have absolutely no power and no say. And really what happens is the charter decision is made more centrally at the state level by maybe the state board or one of the state entities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I also think that there are a lot of interesting implications when you think about this long term. And I’ll give you one case study that happened in New York that I think could be an interesting microcosm of the situation that can happen in other parts of the country if you fast forward 10, 20 years from now and school choice and vouchers become more commonplace. And it’s actually a district that I attended when I was a kid and now is governed by board, the majority of whom send their kids to private school and it’s created an incredibly complex situation where there is a tremendous rift and rift is an understatement between the public school community and the private school community around the way the public district is being managed. On the one hand these are people that pay taxes and they have every right to, you know, run for school board and they’re winning the elections fair and square. On the other hand, you have individuals that are making decisions about a public school system, where many in the public school community argue are not in the best interest of public school students. And so there’s just incredible amounts of tension. And so you can see this being something that could happen in many communities down the road, if we have many, many more students that are not in the public system, and you might have the preponderance of voters that are in the not public system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanted to end on something that maybe is a little bit uplifting and positive and what you hope to see. Who should care about school boards or how should they care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy:\u003c/strong> So to end on a positive note, I think that one thing that I would think that all listeners may agree with is that when we look at our national politics, regardless of what side you’re on, I think it is clear that we have more polarization than we’ve ever had in recent history. And I do believe that when we look at local school districts, the reason that everybody should care is because they are a mechanism to potentially reduce polarization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the one hand, I know we see these scenes of people fighting in boardrooms here, like, how could they reduce polarization? It looks like boardrooms are incredibly polarized. But I would contend that they are the one place where people that have differences of opinion actually come together in person. And because everything is transparent and because local community members have a voice at the microphone, people can actually express their view. And if that view is diametrically different, others have to listen. And there is something incredibly American about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think that there’s this healing process in the fact that we can unify around what happens in a school board room, which is that people of all walks of life that have very different political beliefs can come express their view and have to be listened to. And maybe, just maybe we can realize that sometimes people with very opposing views from a policy perspective might be both coming from a good place, it’s just different places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This does seem like a giant lesson in civics. I really appreciate your time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Levy: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s my pleasure being with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2030 all high schoolers in California will be required to have taken a course in personal finance or financial literacy before they graduate high school. And across the U.S., about two thirds of states have already implemented or will soon implement similar requirements in their public schools. But what happens in the interim when Gen Z and Gen Alpha students might be left to rely on other sources of financial education and literacy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/\">Lillian Zhang\u003c/a>’s new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/book\">The New Money Rules: The Gen Z Guide to Personal Finance,\u003c/a>” offers a reliable and practical source of information for young people thrust into today’s world of finance in the digital age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First of all, it’s important for Gen Z to know that the rules of the game have changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3326217469\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nMarlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Something that I wanted to get into first, why Gen Z’s financial life looks different from previous generations. You say, like very early on in the first chapter of the book, “the rules of the game have changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s something that it’s really difficult for people to understand if they’re not growing up in Gen Z or younger. We’ll lump millennials in there too. So what does that mean that the rules of the games have changed in practical terms for Gen Z and older generations trying to understand today’s financial environment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think a lot of the changes that have happened for Gen Z and millennials, or just a lot of the external factors, look a lot different compared to other generations before. Maybe like 40 years ago, you can live on one income. And now it’s not the case anymore because wages have not increased at the same rate as cost of living has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d say also in terms of technology and how it’s much easier to gain access to information, which is a really positive thing, but also can promote impulsive behaviors or misinformation because of the technology. It’s easier for Gen Z now to make a lot of money, but it’s also the generation that can lose a lot of money the fastest. So all those factors combined contributes to how Gen Z is really facing a different reality from previous generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Money can buy happiness\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>And you kind of say in a soft way that you disagree with the general statement that money doesn’t bring happiness, in quotes. Can you walk me through your stance on seeking security and freedom through personal finance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. Money is such an integrated part of all of our lives whether or not you think about it on a daily basis there was a previous study from a decade and a half ago that states that the average income needed to be quote happy is around 75,000 but a more recent study says that happiness actually caps off closer to 500,000 a year which is surprising but then at same time, not really surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve also questioned this myself in terms of how much money would I need to feel happy and I just think about what are my goals, what are my values like, what do I appreciate spending money on; that’s how I think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really frustrating for young people to hear older generations say, “You don’t need money to be happy. You don’t need all these things to be happy.” And that’s not the reality when you’re talking about really big financial gaps that a lot of people are facing in the U.S these days. So I really appreciated your openness and your stance on this, especially as a young person that other young people can look up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>FOMO and how to stop comparing yourself to others \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Some of what you talk about in the books is about FOMO or the fear of missing out. You’re an online influencer and you found an unusual amount of financial success for someone in their 20s. What would you say to a young person who follows you and feels like they’re. Quote unquote, falling behind and need to keep up with what you’re doing or maybe with another influencer that they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah i’ve also compared myself to other people as well i think no matter what stage you’re at in your career or in your personal life.I always have to tell myself that the only thing that really matters is if you’ve improved from your past self and everyone’s on their own journey just because someone is 10 steps ahead of you doesn’t mean you should be comparing your first step to someone’s 10 steps…that’s sort of how I’ve Um, positioned it in my head. And so everyone’s just on their own journey. Everyone has different circumstances and situations and it’s not apples to apples comparison.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Online safety for digital natives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We hear a lot about how Gen Z and younger generations are, quote unquote, digital natives. But I don’t think we hear enough about how we can still support younger generations in moments when digital spaces are really hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, young people are still young people. They’re still learning how to navigate the world, figure out who they are. What are some of your quick tips for online safety, specifically maybe avoiding um, scams online or using safe platforms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> So yeah, the scams are getting a lot better and something that’s happened to me personally is I would get emails from a PayPal or an Amazon saying like so-and-so was charged on your card. Click now to undo the charge and as usually someone who is pretending to be a company trying to like get to your email address or your personal banking information and that’s something that I think is important to look out for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think we have this idea that older people are the people that are targeted the most for these types of scams, which they are, but I think also young people are very vulnerable, especially if you have that anxiety about your financial health and you might be learning how to implement impulse control. I know that if I was 16 and I got an email like that, I might automatically click on that link, not even thinking about someone trying to scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Oh, yes, that’s definitely true.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial (dis)advantage\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Okay. So let’s talk about finding financial stability as a young adult. That is a huge topic that contains lots of subtopics and can be super intimidating for a young person to even begin to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> One of the things that really popped out to me is that understanding the inequities of the financial playing field can be really helpful. Especially for young people who might be experiencing that FOMO when it comes to spending money. What would you say to these young people who might not understand that the people who look like they have it all in real life or online are most likely greatly advantaged financially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>I see this a lot like you mentioned on social media a lot of people post what they’re wearing where they’re going out to eat where they are vacationing and i think for a lot of young people who are aspiring to that lifestyle it can be really easy to compare yourself to what other people are doing and for a lot of people they worked for it. And for some people, they’re not showing how they’re affording it, whether that’s through debt; through their parent sponsorship. There are many factors in which you don’t know how they are doing something unless they tell you.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding financial stability through internships \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> There’s also a lot of different ways you can go about finding financial stability as a young adult. One of the really great ways that I saw you point out in the book is how internships create a pathway to financial stability, especially for people looking to find a career in the corporate world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about some of the practicalities of finding an internship even when you’re in high school or in the early stages of your post-secondary education? And how that can kind of set you up for some financial success early in your 20s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so my career path has mostly been the internship and then later on my corporate career, which I am a few years in now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I learned about internships when I was a freshman at college, and so I saw internships as a way to get my foot into the door, and I honestly didn’t really think about the financial aspects of internships because… I do think the main purpose of internships is to gain experience so you can land a higher paying role in the industry you want to be in after college, which is where many people see their real earnings come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In terms of resources for finding internships, when I was in school, I relied on a lot of networks like LinkedIn. I rely on Handshake, which is sort of like a LinkedIn for finding opportunities, but they’re specifically created for college students. And so I really appreciate the opportunities that I found through Handshake actually. Sometimes like professors or classes have jobs or opportunities that they’re connected to. Also relying on the peers in your school, perhaps the alumni that you can reach out to. Those are some of the tips that I have found super helpful when I was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Staying motivated\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about motivation. It’s easy to lose motivation, but especially if you feel like you’re never going to reach your financial goals and especially as a young person whose frontal lobe is not fully developed and you’re just starting to think about your personal finances, you’re starting to learn about future planning. What is a strategy that you like to use when you feel yourself losing motivation to keep your personal finance goals in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because especially for a lot of young people, we live in the culture of FOMO as well as YOLO culture. So, doing things without thinking long term or not understanding that there is a path long term. And I think a lot us get stuck in the cycle of, oh, I’m not going to hit my goals next year, therefore it’s gone to waste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we forget to realize that we have a long life ahead of us. And just because we don’t reach our goals next year doesn’t mean that we’re a failure or that we shouldn’t plan for the future and so i think we just need to be more intentional with what do you really want in five years or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m very adamant on tracking a lot of my progress just like month to month not all the time because I think that can be a little stressful but just like knowing where you’re at and seeing like which parts of this process can I control? And what are other parts of the process that are more external factors that I might have to let go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think it’s just understanding your situation and what specific things can you control in the process that will bring you more of that relief around the topic instead of feeling that you don’t have control over that.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The pitfalls of buy-now-pay-later\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Buy now, pay later. This has been a really big topic over the last couple of years, and I feel like that would be a really enticing tool for especially a young person to use, whether or not they have the finances to keep up with it. What are some of the risks and also rewards associated with these types of payment systems like Klarna or Afterpay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I’ve never used a buy now pay later service ever and it’s just something that I personally have a negative stance against because I think it can do something that is very dangerous. In a way it makes debt seem cute and it makes it not feel like a big deal because you’re not technically getting charged interest and the payments look smaller. So I think that’s what entices a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I mentioned in my book too that it’s kind of like the impulsive behavior that once you start doing something it could unlock something in your brain that it would be okay to do the same process or bnpl service for larger purchases even if you can’t afford it I think that’s the biggest pitfall is spiraling into something bigger than what you perhaps intended it to be be for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the most shocking things I’ve seen online about BNPL is that one of bnpl providers was actually on restaurants like Chipotle. “Get your burrito now and pay it later.” Which I think is really, I’m not sure about that, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm, yeah, that does seem like a really slippery slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Investing versus gambling\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanna also ask you about making the distinction between investing and gambling, especially when it comes to things like cryptocurrency and meme stock and sports betting that might blur the lines between investing in gambling behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> When it comes to short-term gambling or investing based on hype it usually involves a high form of luck. It’s not dependent on these specific technicals of how investment would grow over time, it’s more about did you get in at the right time and you get out at the right time. The entry points and the points that you leave is crucial whether or not you lose a lot of money or gain a lot money, and I don’t believe that is the wisest way for most people to build wealth long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when you’re investing in something in the long term, you’re investing in the fundamentals of a company or the economy as a whole. And that has its own guardrails. And studies have shown that if you invest for the long term, over a 20 year period, you’re basically guaranteed to profit off your investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think a lot of people, young people, don’t think about what their life would look like in X many years from now, because a lot of us want that instant gratification, just like when impulse shopping. And a lot of people want to see immediate gains in their money or investment growth. And so we just have to temper our expectations a little.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Meme stock versus meme coin\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>In the book, you tell a story about losing money to a risky investment in a meme coin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I mentioned meme stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain to us the difference between the two?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so the theory behind a meme stock and a meme coin is very similar. In the sense that it’s driven up by hype and there’s no real logic behind this particular asset. And so the difference is a stock is basically a portion of a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So an example like a real stock is like Google, Amazon, Apple, like established public companies, and a meme stock is a stop representing a company that is driven up artificially by media hype, by social hype, with no real logic to why the stock would increase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a normal situation when a stock increases, it’s because perhaps the product did well in sales. Or the earnings report was good, like something tangible behind that And a meme coin is a similar concept also driven by hype and the media except it’s for cryptocurrency. So digital currency that is worth money if you sell it. It’s driven by urgency in hopes that you will also enter in this investment and the people who actually benefit know when it’s gonna top out and they sell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And most people who get into this lose a lot of money because by the time you hear about it on the news the hype is already over but people still enter when the hype is over there’s no logic behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial literacy in high school\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about personal finance classes in high school. As of right now, over 30 states, including California, have some sort of ongoing or newly implemented mandate on personal finance class for high schoolers. How do you feel about personal finance classes and high schools and was it something that was offered to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think it’s really great that California in particular is paying more attention to this subject. When I was in high school, we had classes like microeconomics and learning about the government and learning personal finance would ha ve been so helpful for me leaving high school going to college or entering the real world because if the schools don’t teach you, a lot of times like kids and teenagers, students don’t know what to seek out because you don’t what you don’t know, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think introducing it early is going to be super helpful for students. And I saw that California is mandating a course to every high schooler starting in the 2030 to 31 school year, which is really great, but that’s still five years away. There’s still a long time. A lot of students within that timeframe still won’t get access, wide access, to the education. And so I think there’s still a lot of work to be done, but I’m really glad to see that California is picking this up.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How do you know who to trust online?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We know that most of Gen Z has grown up in a world with at least the internet and then younger Gen Z, obviously, a lot of other digital technologies. And there’s a lot of financial advice online these days. You can find financial advice on any social platform, wherever you look. And we know that Gen Z and younger generations seek out a lot of advice in general through social media. How do you know who to trust, who to follow? Whose advice to apply to your own financial life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Really great question. I say a lot of people including myself are sharing more of their personal finance journey or lessons kind of learned along the way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like to follow a lot people who kind of are in like a similar relatable journey and I kind of learn what worked for someone else and see if I can apply their life lessons to me and that’s kind of how I like to learn and I think a lot of my audience looks up to like my profile in a similar way but we also have more of those industry leaders who actually have credentials who talk more about like advice and what you can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I say every time you see an educational video content or book it doesn’t matter who it’s from you should understand that it’s not like a black and white situation where what they say is the truth. Always use your analytical thinking to decide whether what they said applies to you since everyone’s situation is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And also like to emphasize how there are also a lot of like get rich quick schemes that are promoted on social media and if something seems too good to be true, if someone’s promising profits like tomorrow, if you want to get onto this hype stock or investment next week to make money. If it sounds too good to be true, it’s probably a scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2030 all high schoolers in California will be required to have taken a course in personal finance or financial literacy before they graduate high school. And across the U.S., about two thirds of states have already implemented or will soon implement similar requirements in their public schools. But what happens in the interim when Gen Z and Gen Alpha students might be left to rely on other sources of financial education and literacy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/\">Lillian Zhang\u003c/a>’s new book, “\u003ca href=\"https://lillianzhang.com/book\">The New Money Rules: The Gen Z Guide to Personal Finance,\u003c/a>” offers a reliable and practical source of information for young people thrust into today’s world of finance in the digital age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First of all, it’s important for Gen Z to know that the rules of the game have changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3326217469\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nMarlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Something that I wanted to get into first, why Gen Z’s financial life looks different from previous generations. You say, like very early on in the first chapter of the book, “the rules of the game have changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think that’s something that it’s really difficult for people to understand if they’re not growing up in Gen Z or younger. We’ll lump millennials in there too. So what does that mean that the rules of the games have changed in practical terms for Gen Z and older generations trying to understand today’s financial environment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think a lot of the changes that have happened for Gen Z and millennials, or just a lot of the external factors, look a lot different compared to other generations before. Maybe like 40 years ago, you can live on one income. And now it’s not the case anymore because wages have not increased at the same rate as cost of living has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’d say also in terms of technology and how it’s much easier to gain access to information, which is a really positive thing, but also can promote impulsive behaviors or misinformation because of the technology. It’s easier for Gen Z now to make a lot of money, but it’s also the generation that can lose a lot of money the fastest. So all those factors combined contributes to how Gen Z is really facing a different reality from previous generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Money can buy happiness\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>And you kind of say in a soft way that you disagree with the general statement that money doesn’t bring happiness, in quotes. Can you walk me through your stance on seeking security and freedom through personal finance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. Money is such an integrated part of all of our lives whether or not you think about it on a daily basis there was a previous study from a decade and a half ago that states that the average income needed to be quote happy is around 75,000 but a more recent study says that happiness actually caps off closer to 500,000 a year which is surprising but then at same time, not really surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve also questioned this myself in terms of how much money would I need to feel happy and I just think about what are my goals, what are my values like, what do I appreciate spending money on; that’s how I think about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really frustrating for young people to hear older generations say, “You don’t need money to be happy. You don’t need all these things to be happy.” And that’s not the reality when you’re talking about really big financial gaps that a lot of people are facing in the U.S these days. So I really appreciated your openness and your stance on this, especially as a young person that other young people can look up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>FOMO and how to stop comparing yourself to others \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Some of what you talk about in the books is about FOMO or the fear of missing out. You’re an online influencer and you found an unusual amount of financial success for someone in their 20s. What would you say to a young person who follows you and feels like they’re. Quote unquote, falling behind and need to keep up with what you’re doing or maybe with another influencer that they’re seeing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah i’ve also compared myself to other people as well i think no matter what stage you’re at in your career or in your personal life.I always have to tell myself that the only thing that really matters is if you’ve improved from your past self and everyone’s on their own journey just because someone is 10 steps ahead of you doesn’t mean you should be comparing your first step to someone’s 10 steps…that’s sort of how I’ve Um, positioned it in my head. And so everyone’s just on their own journey. Everyone has different circumstances and situations and it’s not apples to apples comparison.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Online safety for digital natives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We hear a lot about how Gen Z and younger generations are, quote unquote, digital natives. But I don’t think we hear enough about how we can still support younger generations in moments when digital spaces are really hard to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, young people are still young people. They’re still learning how to navigate the world, figure out who they are. What are some of your quick tips for online safety, specifically maybe avoiding um, scams online or using safe platforms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> So yeah, the scams are getting a lot better and something that’s happened to me personally is I would get emails from a PayPal or an Amazon saying like so-and-so was charged on your card. Click now to undo the charge and as usually someone who is pretending to be a company trying to like get to your email address or your personal banking information and that’s something that I think is important to look out for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think we have this idea that older people are the people that are targeted the most for these types of scams, which they are, but I think also young people are very vulnerable, especially if you have that anxiety about your financial health and you might be learning how to implement impulse control. I know that if I was 16 and I got an email like that, I might automatically click on that link, not even thinking about someone trying to scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Oh, yes, that’s definitely true.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial (dis)advantage\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Okay. So let’s talk about finding financial stability as a young adult. That is a huge topic that contains lots of subtopics and can be super intimidating for a young person to even begin to think about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> One of the things that really popped out to me is that understanding the inequities of the financial playing field can be really helpful. Especially for young people who might be experiencing that FOMO when it comes to spending money. What would you say to these young people who might not understand that the people who look like they have it all in real life or online are most likely greatly advantaged financially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang: \u003c/strong>I see this a lot like you mentioned on social media a lot of people post what they’re wearing where they’re going out to eat where they are vacationing and i think for a lot of young people who are aspiring to that lifestyle it can be really easy to compare yourself to what other people are doing and for a lot of people they worked for it. And for some people, they’re not showing how they’re affording it, whether that’s through debt; through their parent sponsorship. There are many factors in which you don’t know how they are doing something unless they tell you.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding financial stability through internships \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> There’s also a lot of different ways you can go about finding financial stability as a young adult. One of the really great ways that I saw you point out in the book is how internships create a pathway to financial stability, especially for people looking to find a career in the corporate world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can you talk a little bit about some of the practicalities of finding an internship even when you’re in high school or in the early stages of your post-secondary education? And how that can kind of set you up for some financial success early in your 20s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so my career path has mostly been the internship and then later on my corporate career, which I am a few years in now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I learned about internships when I was a freshman at college, and so I saw internships as a way to get my foot into the door, and I honestly didn’t really think about the financial aspects of internships because… I do think the main purpose of internships is to gain experience so you can land a higher paying role in the industry you want to be in after college, which is where many people see their real earnings come in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In terms of resources for finding internships, when I was in school, I relied on a lot of networks like LinkedIn. I rely on Handshake, which is sort of like a LinkedIn for finding opportunities, but they’re specifically created for college students. And so I really appreciate the opportunities that I found through Handshake actually. Sometimes like professors or classes have jobs or opportunities that they’re connected to. Also relying on the peers in your school, perhaps the alumni that you can reach out to. Those are some of the tips that I have found super helpful when I was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Staying motivated\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about motivation. It’s easy to lose motivation, but especially if you feel like you’re never going to reach your financial goals and especially as a young person whose frontal lobe is not fully developed and you’re just starting to think about your personal finances, you’re starting to learn about future planning. What is a strategy that you like to use when you feel yourself losing motivation to keep your personal finance goals in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because especially for a lot of young people, we live in the culture of FOMO as well as YOLO culture. So, doing things without thinking long term or not understanding that there is a path long term. And I think a lot us get stuck in the cycle of, oh, I’m not going to hit my goals next year, therefore it’s gone to waste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we forget to realize that we have a long life ahead of us. And just because we don’t reach our goals next year doesn’t mean that we’re a failure or that we shouldn’t plan for the future and so i think we just need to be more intentional with what do you really want in five years or 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I do is I’m very adamant on tracking a lot of my progress just like month to month not all the time because I think that can be a little stressful but just like knowing where you’re at and seeing like which parts of this process can I control? And what are other parts of the process that are more external factors that I might have to let go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think it’s just understanding your situation and what specific things can you control in the process that will bring you more of that relief around the topic instead of feeling that you don’t have control over that.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The pitfalls of buy-now-pay-later\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Buy now, pay later. This has been a really big topic over the last couple of years, and I feel like that would be a really enticing tool for especially a young person to use, whether or not they have the finances to keep up with it. What are some of the risks and also rewards associated with these types of payment systems like Klarna or Afterpay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I’ve never used a buy now pay later service ever and it’s just something that I personally have a negative stance against because I think it can do something that is very dangerous. In a way it makes debt seem cute and it makes it not feel like a big deal because you’re not technically getting charged interest and the payments look smaller. So I think that’s what entices a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I mentioned in my book too that it’s kind of like the impulsive behavior that once you start doing something it could unlock something in your brain that it would be okay to do the same process or bnpl service for larger purchases even if you can’t afford it I think that’s the biggest pitfall is spiraling into something bigger than what you perhaps intended it to be be for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of the most shocking things I’ve seen online about BNPL is that one of bnpl providers was actually on restaurants like Chipotle. “Get your burrito now and pay it later.” Which I think is really, I’m not sure about that, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm, yeah, that does seem like a really slippery slope.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Investing versus gambling\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I wanna also ask you about making the distinction between investing and gambling, especially when it comes to things like cryptocurrency and meme stock and sports betting that might blur the lines between investing in gambling behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> When it comes to short-term gambling or investing based on hype it usually involves a high form of luck. It’s not dependent on these specific technicals of how investment would grow over time, it’s more about did you get in at the right time and you get out at the right time. The entry points and the points that you leave is crucial whether or not you lose a lot of money or gain a lot money, and I don’t believe that is the wisest way for most people to build wealth long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when you’re investing in something in the long term, you’re investing in the fundamentals of a company or the economy as a whole. And that has its own guardrails. And studies have shown that if you invest for the long term, over a 20 year period, you’re basically guaranteed to profit off your investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think a lot of people, young people, don’t think about what their life would look like in X many years from now, because a lot of us want that instant gratification, just like when impulse shopping. And a lot of people want to see immediate gains in their money or investment growth. And so we just have to temper our expectations a little.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Meme stock versus meme coin\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>In the book, you tell a story about losing money to a risky investment in a meme coin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I mentioned meme stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Can you explain to us the difference between the two?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Yes, so the theory behind a meme stock and a meme coin is very similar. In the sense that it’s driven up by hype and there’s no real logic behind this particular asset. And so the difference is a stock is basically a portion of a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So an example like a real stock is like Google, Amazon, Apple, like established public companies, and a meme stock is a stop representing a company that is driven up artificially by media hype, by social hype, with no real logic to why the stock would increase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a normal situation when a stock increases, it’s because perhaps the product did well in sales. Or the earnings report was good, like something tangible behind that And a meme coin is a similar concept also driven by hype and the media except it’s for cryptocurrency. So digital currency that is worth money if you sell it. It’s driven by urgency in hopes that you will also enter in this investment and the people who actually benefit know when it’s gonna top out and they sell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And most people who get into this lose a lot of money because by the time you hear about it on the news the hype is already over but people still enter when the hype is over there’s no logic behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Financial literacy in high school\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about personal finance classes in high school. As of right now, over 30 states, including California, have some sort of ongoing or newly implemented mandate on personal finance class for high schoolers. How do you feel about personal finance classes and high schools and was it something that was offered to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> I think it’s really great that California in particular is paying more attention to this subject. When I was in high school, we had classes like microeconomics and learning about the government and learning personal finance would ha ve been so helpful for me leaving high school going to college or entering the real world because if the schools don’t teach you, a lot of times like kids and teenagers, students don’t know what to seek out because you don’t what you don’t know, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I think introducing it early is going to be super helpful for students. And I saw that California is mandating a course to every high schooler starting in the 2030 to 31 school year, which is really great, but that’s still five years away. There’s still a long time. A lot of students within that timeframe still won’t get access, wide access, to the education. And so I think there’s still a lot of work to be done, but I’m really glad to see that California is picking this up.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How do you know who to trust online?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We know that most of Gen Z has grown up in a world with at least the internet and then younger Gen Z, obviously, a lot of other digital technologies. And there’s a lot of financial advice online these days. You can find financial advice on any social platform, wherever you look. And we know that Gen Z and younger generations seek out a lot of advice in general through social media. How do you know who to trust, who to follow? Whose advice to apply to your own financial life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lillian Zhang:\u003c/strong> Really great question. I say a lot of people including myself are sharing more of their personal finance journey or lessons kind of learned along the way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like to follow a lot people who kind of are in like a similar relatable journey and I kind of learn what worked for someone else and see if I can apply their life lessons to me and that’s kind of how I like to learn and I think a lot of my audience looks up to like my profile in a similar way but we also have more of those industry leaders who actually have credentials who talk more about like advice and what you can do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so I say every time you see an educational video content or book it doesn’t matter who it’s from you should understand that it’s not like a black and white situation where what they say is the truth. Always use your analytical thinking to decide whether what they said applies to you since everyone’s situation is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And also like to emphasize how there are also a lot of like get rich quick schemes that are promoted on social media and if something seems too good to be true, if someone’s promising profits like tomorrow, if you want to get onto this hype stock or investment next week to make money. If it sounds too good to be true, it’s probably a scam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This month MindShift is sharing an episode from MITs TeachLab podcast. Hosts Jessie Dukes and Justin Reich have interviewed teachers, school leaders and students about how the debut of ChatGPT and Generative AI is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve compiled their learnings into a mini series called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">Homework Machine\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3473844164\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey MindShift listeners, It’s Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ve got a special episode to share with you. It’s from our friends at Teach Lab, a podcast about the art and craft of teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their mini series, called The Homework Machine, hosts Jesse Dukes and Justin Reich explore the reactions to AI when it first debuted as a strange new technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll let our friends from Teach Lab take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> This is the Teach Lab podcast, I’m Justin Reich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And I’m Jesse Dukes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Devon O’Neil is a high school social studies teacher in Oregon. Back in 2021, after six years of teaching, she took 2 years off while her husband attended grad school. At MIT actually. And during her break from teaching, she worked designing classroom curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Which is a super cool experience, very different from being in the classroom, and also really reinforced that I wanted to be in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> When she was on her break, O’Neil missed two momentous years for schools. There was a pandemic, remote learning, hybrid learning, returning to school buildings. And when she went back to the classroom, in the fall of 2023, she said, there was some culture shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> It was those two, like super crazy post-Covid years. So I come back, and it’s like, like those movies where the caveman, like defrost or whatever. And they’re like “what is this?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t just that her fellow teachers were harrowed and burned out, while she was fresh and energetic. She also noticed that the student work was, well, different from what she remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> I’d have these really well written paragraphs or snippets that are looked to be very well researched and all this, but not at all on topic. Grammar was off. Even the most brilliant 14-year-old still talks like a 14-year-old and still writes like a 14-year-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, the grammar was oddly good. O’Neil can see her students’ screens, and she sometimes watches them work. And, one day, she noticed they were using an unusual search engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Bing! I was noticing a lot of them were using Bing. To Google stuff, see even to Google stuff. And I was like, that’s the weirdest choice. Who uses Bing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And then, one day, she was watching a student complete a writing assignment in a google doc. And poof, a whole well-written paragraph just appeared. Out of nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Like one minute it’s not there, and one minute it’s there. And, it said like “here are your results”. And they forgot to delete that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And that’s when Devon realized her students were using ChatGPT to complete in class writing assignments. They would copy and paste the questions she would give them into Bing’s Copilot, which was a free way to use ChatGPT. Then, the students copied the answer, sometimes without any editing, right into their google document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil: \u003c/strong>Which is kind of a rookie mistake, like if they’re going to cheat, you want them to cheat a little better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> We first talked to Devon in 2023, just a few weeks after she figured out what was going on. She says that since then, she’s gotten a lot more savvy about ChatGPT. But her experience speaks to how much can, and did, change in schools, in just a couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> In November of 2022, ChatGPT was launched as a free research preview of advanced generative AI, like a pilot, or beta version. Generative AI is a type of artificial intelligence that can create new content, especially text, but also images, videos, and music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ChatGPT is the most famous example of generative AI. There are competitors like Google’s Gemini, Anthropic’s Claude, and the Chinese company, DeepSeek. And rather quickly, students figured out, ChatGPT was pretty good at doing their homework for them. Devon, out of school for two years, working on curriculum, had missed the arrival of the new homework machine. But her students had not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> The arrival of chatGPT, and then fairly quick upgrades with GPT-3.5 and GPT-4 within a couple of years, has been the big story in education technology since the fall of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Waterfall of news stories]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 1: \u003c/strong>So how does it work? Students can drop an assignment into something like ChatGPT, click a button and their homework is done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 2: \u003c/strong>She is talking about ChatGPT. School districts like New York cities are banning it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 3: \u003c/strong>ChatGPT is the new artificial intelligence tool causing a stir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools have scrambled to figure out what to do about ChatGPT. Ban it? Embrace it? Teachers have scrambled to try to get ahead of the “cheating” problem, and to find ways in which AI can support education. Some Students have scrambled to figure out how to use AI without their teachers detecting it. And education technology companies have scrambled to create AI powered ed tech. And have made many promises about how generative AI will transform education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan:\u003c/strong> But I think we’re at the cusp of using AI for probably the biggest positive transformation that education has ever seen, and the way we’re going to do that is by giving every student on the planet an artificially intelligent but amazing personal tutor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My career has been devoted to studying education technology. Over and over again, we’ve seen new technologies emerge in education, and the technology developers will promise, every time, that the new tech will transform and democratize education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan :\u003c/strong>That’s what’s about to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And while the technologies do sometimes help teachers and students, those big transformations to schools, they never happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> But there is something different about Chat GPT and other AI. Throughout history, most education technology has been adopted by schools, who hope it will help them do better work, teaching students. But Generative AI wasn’t invited into schools. Not for the most part. It crashed the party. Even if schools ban it from school laptops, students can often get around that ban, by using Bing, for example. Or they have their own laptop. Or they can access it on their mobile phone, which over 95% of teenagers have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, the kids have access to generative AI. And they’re using it, whether their teachers want them to, or not. That’s having a big impact on schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a little about me, and this project. I am a journalist, and for the past year and a half, I’ve been working with Justin and other colleagues at MIT’s Teaching Systems Lab. We’ve interviewed over 85 teachers and school leaders, and over 35 students about how all of this is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been hearing about why students cheat using AI, what teachers are doing to stop them, and how some teachers and students have found ChatGPT to be helpful for learning. And for the next several weeks, we’re going to share what we’ve learned with you in a mini series we’re calling the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And now, Jesse, who has immersed himself in this research, will be our host and guide for these episodes. Jesse, you can take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Thanks Justin, but not so fast. We’re going to want your historical knowledge about educational technology to help us unpack and contextualize these stories. So stay close, and keep your mic handy. In fact, we’re going to hear from you again in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Sounds good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Alright, well, let’s go back to A beginning: December of 2022. We’ll start with Steve Ouellette. He’s a technology director at the Westwood School district, southwest of Boston. His job includes keeping track of computers and software for the district, but also helping teachers think through how to use technology in their work. He remembers the exact moment he heard about generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> So I think it was, it was December 8th. And I was home sick with Covid. I got an email, I’m on a listserv, you know, with all the tech directors in Massachusetts and I got an email that said: Have AI write your next English paper. The sub caption was: Buckle up, here it comes. And someone had basically shared a video of this thing called ChatGPT, that was generating an essay about, I think it was about Raisin in the Sun. And I was like “What is going on here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Watching the video, Ouellette says he immediately realized that this was a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was, that was a moment. You know, I’ve been in this business since 1993 and I don’t remember having like, a really specific, like, reaction to something the way I did when I saw that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Ouellette emailed the district’s superintendent, and explained the situation to her. There was a new technological tool, available to students, that could do their schoolwork. Pretty effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> And she had no idea what it was. And I explained to her what it was and sent her a link and she shot back to me five minutes later and she’s like, yeah, we need to write about this. And so we, we felt, we both felt this sense of like, urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> The superintendent asked Ouellette to write a memo to the district’s teachers. Ouellette is a technology guy, and out of curiosity and excitement, he decided to experiment. Could ChatGPT draft the memo? He asked ChatGPT to write the first draft and sent it to the superintendent. She read it and told Ouellette, this is pretty formal language, it doesn’t sound like you. Make it more casual sounding. But Ouellette didn’t rewrite the memo himself. He prompted ChatGPT to revise the memo. And he told it: “Make it more conversational.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> I said, you need to write something funny about how, you know France was gonna win the World Cup. And it like, seamlessly incorporated a little like parenthetical thing about, oh by the way, France is gonna win the World Cup. And in the way it did, it was like magnificent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Here’s the memo ChatGPT wrote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ChatGPT: \u003c/strong> ChatGPT could also be used to help students learn other languages, such as Spanish or French (which, by the way, I think will win the 2022 World Cup). Imagine being able to have a conversation with ChatGPT in French and receiving instant corrections and feedback on your pronunciation and grammar. The possibilities are truly endless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Side note, I’m not that impressed with how ChatGPT did with that World Cup joke. It says that “French” will win the world cup, not “France”. But, that aside, they sent the memo out that Monday. Remember, this was December of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next few months, Ouellette formed an AI working group in the district. They brought in a guest speaker. They looked at academic policies. They talked to teachers and students. And by the summer of 2023, they had revised academic integrity guidelines as well as some basic training for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> The goal was to inform staff about what this stuff is, to let them know that there are guidelines, and that if they have students, you know, in grades eight or higher, they can use it with their students. But we also wanted to inform staff how to use it for themselves to make their own work more efficient. The theory behind that is if they’re using it, then they’ll be more informed to use it responsibly with their kids. And it’s nowhere near where what it needs to be. I’ll be the first to admit it, but we did something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> What Westwood did was quite a bit more than most districts. Last fall, a survey found only about one quarter of teachers said their school district had provided any guidance or professional development, about AI. That’s two years after the arrival of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Westwood, the faculty learned about ChatGPT pretty early on. Likely before many of their students heard about it. That was NOT true for other schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> The First Time I heard about ChatGPT was in my English Class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>This is Nanki Kaur. She just graduated from American High School, in Fremont, California. And she heard about ChatGPT from another student back in the spring of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> We were having a conversation about how we were going to approach our research paper assignment that was coming up, and you would have to pick an individual of American significance and prove why they were of American significance and what impact they had. And he was talking about how he just asked this AI platform about how his person of American Significance who was BLEEP, had an impact on America and he got a really strong thesis statement. And he said, I didn’t even have to do anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Now, I bleeped that last bit so this student won’t get in trouble.But the point here, Nanki says the thesis statement was actually pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> And we were all confused and we were like, what are you talking about? Like how did you not have to do anything and how do you have such a strong thesis statement? ’cause we were just learning how to write a thesis statement at that time. And he said, there’s this online platform, it’s driven by artificial intelligence and it just writes it for you and it’s, it’s really thorough.It’s really good. You guys should try it. And so that was the first time I heard about it and I was shocked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Nanki talked with our colleague Holly McDede, a reporter based in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Did you try it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I did go home and try it. Not for the same assignment, but I went home and I looked it up like Chat GPT, OpenAI, what is it? And then I asked it a couple questions like what is the weather like, and if I were to write a story about a certain situation,could you write me a story? And it actually answered all my prompts and it wrote me like a solid paragraph, and so I was shocked. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Nanki says she doesn’t know what the other student did with his thesis statement, but she has a guess:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I think he did turn it in and I don’t know what kind of disciplinary action he got because there wasn’t really much set in stone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Do you suspect he didn’t get any disciplinary action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I do suspect that because he was oddly smug about how well he had done on that assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> As far as Nanki knows, that student didn’t get in any trouble. In fact, she’s not sure the teachers knew about ChatGPT at that point. And Nanki says that the school didn’t seem to catch on that students were using ChatGPT to cheat until the fall of 2023, the next school year. A whole year after ChatGPT launched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nanki says when they did realize what was happening, the school came down hard. Nanki’s AP English teacher held a special class meeting to present the new academic integrity policy, with a list of sanctions if students were caught using Chat GPT or other AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Which included, zeros on the assignments or administrative disciplinary action. And if worse comes to worst, then it would be, suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> At American High School Nanki says their policies didn’t just ban ChatGPT. Students were also told they couldn’t use Grammarly, the grammar check program, or similar AI tools that are often built into students’ browsers. But, the policies weren’t applied consistently. Nanki says her social studies teacher actually encouraged her to use AI for research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Because she said, I think it’s a really good tool to get all the facts in one spot. Obviously, I’m gonna ask you guys to fact check and cross check, make sure that everything is correct. But I think it’s a really great, you know, tool for you guys to use so that you have everything in one place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Was that confusing for you or other students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> It was confusing for me, personally because I was like, I just don’t want to use it at all. Like I don’t even care because I don’t need like this habit. I don’t want it on my computer. I don’t want it anywhere, like I just want it like away from me because I didn’t want to jeopardize any chance of having a good grade in that class or in any of my classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Some 3000 miles away from Nanki, another student had quite a different experience. Woody Goss was wrapping up 8th grade in a public school in the suburbs north of New York city when he spoke to us in the spring of 2024. He says his teachers didn’t really respond to the arrival of ChatGPT. And, that students used AI to get their schoolwork done in almost all of his classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says his science class was the worst. The students all have laptops, but the teacher sits in front of the class, and can’t see what’s on the screens. Woody sits in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> And you can see everybody’s screen and you can see ChatGPT spitting out the text, and you can see them copy and pasting it into their paper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> You could literally see your fellow students using ChatGPT…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss: \u003c/strong> And copying and pasting it, yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> If you could estimate how many people in a classroom of 20 students, how many were using it to cheat in the way you’re describing. How many would you say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> So I’d say that there’s 10 people in that class using it for everything like cheating on, the whole paper is AI, I’d say there’s another 5 that probably half of it’s written by AI, but they do actually read it through and go, “Gee, maybe I don’t wanna include the part that says ‘As a large language model…’” but they like read it through and copy parts and splice bits and do whatever. Then I’d say of, so you’ve got five remaining. I’d say probably 4 of that 5 do the paper legitimately. So there’s 4 people doing it legitimately, and then there’s another one that’s going, and I don’t know, they, it’s kind of a mix, like they plagiarized stuff, but it’s like a paragraph in their entire thing. And I would say, of those 4, I mean, unless you’ve got a really, not a super smart tech kid, I’d say probably all four of those are using AI in some way. It’s just using it appropriately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Woody says that some of his teachers were apparently totally oblivious to generative AI. But not his science teacher. She tried to encourage students to use it in a way that would help them learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> That teacher was really trying, she seemed to grasp the concept that there was AI being used, and she was like, we’re gonna learn how to use AI, legitimately and like how do we use it in our research? And everybody heard, oh, you can use AI in your paper. And they all didn’t actually listen to what she was saying. Please use it as like a secondary source. And they all went, “okay, I’m gonna use ChatGPT to write my paper. “\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Um, do you have any teachers who effectively managed this? You know, either in their…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> No, I have the science teacher really tried. She really, she did actually provide, unlike all the other teachers, she actually provided instruction like, Hey, here’s how we’re gonna use it. Everybody ignored it, but she did try, right? All my other teachers just flat out ignored it the whole year. Um, except for the ELA teacher who said, we’re all writing paper benchmarks, which was a nightmare. That was just…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Why, why was that a nightmare?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> Because I’d say for a lot of us, not, not even including AI, we’re all digital people on Chromebooks. We don’t, we don’t know how to write a paper benchmark, which you could argue is its own problem. But then you had a million kids yelling and screaming about that, because god forbid you have to write a paper benchmark. Eww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, according to Woody, his English teacher made the students write things out by hand, which actually did keep people from using ChatGPT. Although Woody thinks that created other problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people have suggested that Woody doesn’t need to worry. According to him he’s doing his work legitimately. Assuming that’s true, and that the other students are using ChatGPT, then it’ll all come out in the wash. He’ll actually learn what he’s supposed to, and the others won’t, and eventually, that will be obvious, and give him an advantage. Maybe in getting into college, maybe on tests, maybe in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Woody doesn’t see it that way. In his world. Grades matter. Students are under pressure. When students choose to cheat, that can impact how the teachers teach the material. And the pace of learning, which puts even more pressure on the students who are trying to do the work themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s frustrating. It’s a compounding effect. I’d say at the beginning of the year, there weren’t a lot of students using AI, and I’d say it’s shifted as the pacing gets faster, then more kids feel like they need it ’cause they feel like they’re gonna fail if they don’t have it. So it piles on itself, and it also, I was never the fast worker in the class. I can do the work, but I’m like dyslexic anyway, so it takes me forever to do the work anyway. I’d say the number of people not using it, like the number of people holding out and being like, “I’m gonna do my work legitimately” is going down because it’s just, there’s no room for, especially in the district where I am, where a lot of, we’re very grade grubby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s expected, like you gotta have an A in every class. So everybody is, “I gotta get that A, I gotta get this assignment in on time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> All right. I’d like to bring Justin Reich back to the program. Justin has studied technology in schools over the decades, and he can help us make sense of the stories we just heard. Welcome back Justin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me, Jesse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So the interviews that I shared took place over a year ago, and we’re now coming up on 3 years since ChatGPT was unveiled in November of 2022. So I’m curious what overall reactions you’re having as you listen back to these stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, the first thing it makes me think of is something that we’ve talked about before, which is just this idea of instantaneous arrival is so unusual for an education technology. I mean, the joke we make sometimes is that, you know, “no kid ever dragged their own smart board into a classroom”. Typically education technology was purchased by schools, and that meant the schools could have at least something of a plan before they gave all their teachers online grade books, or they bought all their kids’ Chromebooks, or they bought all their kids’ iPads, or whatever else it is. But there is zero time for planning. There’s zero time for preparation. You know, Steve Ouellette says, “This is urgent”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just, there’s something which is happening right now and we need to deal with it. And then schools have really different capacities to deal with that. So an affluent place like Westwood, where they probably have recovered pretty well from the pandemic where things are feeling like they’re back on track, they probably have plenty of resources to hire substitute teachers, you know, the population of kids they serve have all kinds of challenges, but not nearly, the challenges they might encounter in some of their urban neighborhoods nearby or rural neighborhoods out west. They’re in a good place to be able to say, “Oh, we’ve, I’ve got some extra time to be able to manage this. Like, let’s get started.” Let’s, you know, teachers have extra time to be on the working group, “Let’s get started working on this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For, at other places, many, many schools in November 2022, in the spring of 2023, were still drowning in the challenges of chronic absenteeism of learning, loss of school that felt like it really hadn’t bounced back yet. And so this new thing shows up, and not every school in the country is on the same footing in figuring out how to deal with it. But of course, even if a school doesn’t have an institutional plan to deal with it, every teacher has to deal with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Ms O’Neill walks into her classroom and all of her students are using Bing. And she goes, well, you know, Bing! Bing is the web browser that you use to download Google Chrome, so you can never have to use Bing again. Why are all my students using Bing on a Chromebook? Like none of this makes sense. And what a great story, to remind us how significantly and quickly things changed and how there was no choice to postpone this. There was no way to say, ah, “ we’ll just buy, maybe we’ll buy the smart boards, but we’ll buy them next year, or we’ll buy them two years after that. Let’s just work on other stuff for now.” You, as an educator, had this in your classroom and had to decide what you were gonna do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Well, speaking of no option to postpone, I wanna play you something that Sam Altman said about all of this back in 2023. You know that Sam Altman was one of the founders of OpenAI, the company responsible for ChatGPT. And he’s the CEO. You may remember he was actually ousted from the company briefly and then reinstated in an episode they’re now calling the blip, and one thing he’s gotten some criticism for is just releasing new versions of ChatGPT out into the world, arguably without a lot of thought about what impact that might have or without a lot of support for institutions like schools that might be impacted by AI. And in 2023, the hosts of the New York Times podcast, Hard Fork asked him about that. And here’s what he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman:\u003c/strong> You know, one example that I mean is instructive because it was the first and the loudest is what happened with ChatGPT and education. Days, at least weeks. But I think days after the release of ChatGPT school districts were like falling all over themselves to ban ChatGPT. And that didn’t really surprise us, like that we could have predicted and did predict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The thing that happened after that quickly was, you know, like weeks to months, was school districts and teachers saying, Hey, actually we made a mistake and this is really important part of the future of education and the benefits far outweigh the downside. And not only are we banning it, we’re encouraging our teachers to make use of it in the classroom. We’re encouraging our students to get really good at this tool because it’s gonna be part of the way people live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, you know, then there was like a big discussion about what, what the kind of path forward should be. And that is just not something that could have happened without releasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>So Justin, you were paying pretty close attention in 2022 and 2023 when ChatGPT was first unleashed upon schools. Do you think Altman’s account is historically accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I actually got to hear Sam Altman give some version of this because he came to MIT, not long after November, 2022, gave a talk that was facilitated by Sally Kornbluth, our president. And he said something along the lines, I think the question was something like, you know, where are there big wins for ChatGPT? And he was like, well, education’s a slam dunk. This is a place where very obviously, we’re seeing benefits, not really seeing any downsides. Things are just immediately improving society. So this is gonna be a fast win for us. And yeah, you know, it’s, it’s delusional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not at all connected to what is actually happening in reality in schools. I’m sure some of it is, if I built a technology product, I’d be pretty excited to hear the voices of people who are happy with it. You know, people in powerful places don’t always have great sources of information about what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes : \u003c/strong>And, and everything he says has a kind of factual basis to it, but it adds up to a kind of orderly picture of what happens, that to me doesn’t really reflect the chaos that educators were experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Also, if you just know something about schools, this idea that, like, “as soon as it was released they were all doing something”, it’s like, no, that’s not how schools work. And then “really quickly after doing it, they reverse themselves” and you’re like, no, you do not under- like, schools are carrier fleets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools are super tankers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Schools are super tankers. Like when they turn, they turn slowly and they turn with inertia. And when they go back it takes a lot of time to move that backwards, but even just in the handful of stories that we heard,we heard from a couple of students, one teacher who said there was nothing happening in their schools. It wasn’t being banned, it wasn’t being encouraged. Teachers were kind of figuring out on their own what to do with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I mean, if you talk to teachers and students, it’s not very hard to get stories where you get the sense of like, oh, this is not an unambiguously good thing. Like this is making Nanki nervous because pretty clearly students are using this to bypass their learning in ways that they shouldn’t. Woody is really concerned that his classes are moving faster than they’re supposed to because teachers are getting the wrong feedback. From students because students, instead of doing the work and doing the learning and figuring things out, are just copying, pasting questions from ChatGPT into their assignments and this, and Woody is trying to, is telling us he’s trying to do the right thing and this isn’t working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And even Steve, who’s in like the best possible circumstances, a really experienced, really talented tech director with a really supportive superintendent, really supportive community, cool things happening in their schools. As much good work as he’s doing, I think he still feels like, that he’s just barely taking the first steps that might be needed to get his hands wrapped around this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and in fact, I actually played that Sam Altman tape for him and you know, he, and arguably what Sam Altman describes most closely resembles Westwood and Steve Ouellette, like of all the people we heard from, his story is the closest to Sam Altman’s account of what happened. But this, this is what he had to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette: \u003c/strong>Not to highlight Westwood, but when I talk to my peers in neighboring districts, no one’s doing anything. Like they’re just starting to create, think about creating guidelines. And so, we’re kind of just like building the plane, you know, while we fly it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> For the next 6 episodes, we’re going to hear stories of building the plane as we fly it. We’ll hear from the teachers who are struggling to prevent their students from using ChatGPT to bypass learning and thinking; We’ll talk with students about why they turn to AI to get their work done, and what it feels like to be falsely accused of using AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’ll hear from teachers, students, and school leaders who have found ways to use AI to help them teach or learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in our next episode, what even is generative AI? And why does the so-called “jagged frontier” of this technology make it so challenging when it shows up in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It doesn’t think, it doesn’t understand, it predicts one word at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>That’s next time on the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by me, Jesse Dukes. We had editing from Ruxandra Guidi and Alexandra Salomon. Reporting and research from Holly McDede, Natasha Esteves, Andrew Meriwether, and Chris Bagg. Sound design and music supervision by Steven Jackson. Production support from Yebu Ji. Data analysis from Manee Ngozi Nnamani and Manasa Kudumu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Josh Sheldon, Camila Lee, Liz Hutner, and Eric Klopfer. Administrative support from Jessica Rondon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The research and reporting you heard in this episode was supported by the Spencer Foundation, the Kapor Foundation, the Jameel World Education Lab, the Social and Ethical Responsibility of Computing Initiative at MIT, and the RAISE initiative, Responsible AI for Social Empowerment and Education also at MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, we had support from Google’s Academic Research Awards program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Homework Machine is a production of the Teaching Systems Lab, Justin Reich Director, the lab is located at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, more commonly known to the world as MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://teachlabpodcast.com/\">teachlabpodcast.com\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://tsl.mit.edu/AI\">tsl.mit.edu/AI\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>That was The Homework Machine from MIT’s Teachlab podcast.\u003cbr>\nYou can find the whole series wherever you get your podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next month with a brand new episode of Mindshift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This month MindShift is sharing an episode from MITs TeachLab podcast. Hosts Jessie Dukes and Justin Reich have interviewed teachers, school leaders and students about how the debut of ChatGPT and Generative AI is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve compiled their learnings into a mini series called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.teachlabpodcast.com/\">Homework Machine\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3473844164\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nKi Sung:\u003c/strong> Hey MindShift listeners, It’s Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ve got a special episode to share with you. It’s from our friends at Teach Lab, a podcast about the art and craft of teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their mini series, called The Homework Machine, hosts Jesse Dukes and Justin Reich explore the reactions to AI when it first debuted as a strange new technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll let our friends from Teach Lab take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode Transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> This is the Teach Lab podcast, I’m Justin Reich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And I’m Jesse Dukes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Devon O’Neil is a high school social studies teacher in Oregon. Back in 2021, after six years of teaching, she took 2 years off while her husband attended grad school. At MIT actually. And during her break from teaching, she worked designing classroom curriculum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Which is a super cool experience, very different from being in the classroom, and also really reinforced that I wanted to be in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> When she was on her break, O’Neil missed two momentous years for schools. There was a pandemic, remote learning, hybrid learning, returning to school buildings. And when she went back to the classroom, in the fall of 2023, she said, there was some culture shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> It was those two, like super crazy post-Covid years. So I come back, and it’s like, like those movies where the caveman, like defrost or whatever. And they’re like “what is this?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t just that her fellow teachers were harrowed and burned out, while she was fresh and energetic. She also noticed that the student work was, well, different from what she remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> I’d have these really well written paragraphs or snippets that are looked to be very well researched and all this, but not at all on topic. Grammar was off. Even the most brilliant 14-year-old still talks like a 14-year-old and still writes like a 14-year-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, the grammar was oddly good. O’Neil can see her students’ screens, and she sometimes watches them work. And, one day, she noticed they were using an unusual search engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Bing! I was noticing a lot of them were using Bing. To Google stuff, see even to Google stuff. And I was like, that’s the weirdest choice. Who uses Bing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And then, one day, she was watching a student complete a writing assignment in a google doc. And poof, a whole well-written paragraph just appeared. Out of nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil:\u003c/strong> Like one minute it’s not there, and one minute it’s there. And, it said like “here are your results”. And they forgot to delete that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> And that’s when Devon realized her students were using ChatGPT to complete in class writing assignments. They would copy and paste the questions she would give them into Bing’s Copilot, which was a free way to use ChatGPT. Then, the students copied the answer, sometimes without any editing, right into their google document.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devon O’Neil: \u003c/strong>Which is kind of a rookie mistake, like if they’re going to cheat, you want them to cheat a little better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> We first talked to Devon in 2023, just a few weeks after she figured out what was going on. She says that since then, she’s gotten a lot more savvy about ChatGPT. But her experience speaks to how much can, and did, change in schools, in just a couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> In November of 2022, ChatGPT was launched as a free research preview of advanced generative AI, like a pilot, or beta version. Generative AI is a type of artificial intelligence that can create new content, especially text, but also images, videos, and music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ChatGPT is the most famous example of generative AI. There are competitors like Google’s Gemini, Anthropic’s Claude, and the Chinese company, DeepSeek. And rather quickly, students figured out, ChatGPT was pretty good at doing their homework for them. Devon, out of school for two years, working on curriculum, had missed the arrival of the new homework machine. But her students had not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> The arrival of chatGPT, and then fairly quick upgrades with GPT-3.5 and GPT-4 within a couple of years, has been the big story in education technology since the fall of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Waterfall of news stories]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 1: \u003c/strong>So how does it work? Students can drop an assignment into something like ChatGPT, click a button and their homework is done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 2: \u003c/strong>She is talking about ChatGPT. School districts like New York cities are banning it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News anchor 3: \u003c/strong>ChatGPT is the new artificial intelligence tool causing a stir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools have scrambled to figure out what to do about ChatGPT. Ban it? Embrace it? Teachers have scrambled to try to get ahead of the “cheating” problem, and to find ways in which AI can support education. Some Students have scrambled to figure out how to use AI without their teachers detecting it. And education technology companies have scrambled to create AI powered ed tech. And have made many promises about how generative AI will transform education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan:\u003c/strong> But I think we’re at the cusp of using AI for probably the biggest positive transformation that education has ever seen, and the way we’re going to do that is by giving every student on the planet an artificially intelligent but amazing personal tutor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> My career has been devoted to studying education technology. Over and over again, we’ve seen new technologies emerge in education, and the technology developers will promise, every time, that the new tech will transform and democratize education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sal Khan :\u003c/strong>That’s what’s about to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And while the technologies do sometimes help teachers and students, those big transformations to schools, they never happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> But there is something different about Chat GPT and other AI. Throughout history, most education technology has been adopted by schools, who hope it will help them do better work, teaching students. But Generative AI wasn’t invited into schools. Not for the most part. It crashed the party. Even if schools ban it from school laptops, students can often get around that ban, by using Bing, for example. Or they have their own laptop. Or they can access it on their mobile phone, which over 95% of teenagers have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, the kids have access to generative AI. And they’re using it, whether their teachers want them to, or not. That’s having a big impact on schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a little about me, and this project. I am a journalist, and for the past year and a half, I’ve been working with Justin and other colleagues at MIT’s Teaching Systems Lab. We’ve interviewed over 85 teachers and school leaders, and over 35 students about how all of this is actually playing out in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been hearing about why students cheat using AI, what teachers are doing to stop them, and how some teachers and students have found ChatGPT to be helpful for learning. And for the next several weeks, we’re going to share what we’ve learned with you in a mini series we’re calling the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> And now, Jesse, who has immersed himself in this research, will be our host and guide for these episodes. Jesse, you can take it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Thanks Justin, but not so fast. We’re going to want your historical knowledge about educational technology to help us unpack and contextualize these stories. So stay close, and keep your mic handy. In fact, we’re going to hear from you again in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Sounds good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Alright, well, let’s go back to A beginning: December of 2022. We’ll start with Steve Ouellette. He’s a technology director at the Westwood School district, southwest of Boston. His job includes keeping track of computers and software for the district, but also helping teachers think through how to use technology in their work. He remembers the exact moment he heard about generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> So I think it was, it was December 8th. And I was home sick with Covid. I got an email, I’m on a listserv, you know, with all the tech directors in Massachusetts and I got an email that said: Have AI write your next English paper. The sub caption was: Buckle up, here it comes. And someone had basically shared a video of this thing called ChatGPT, that was generating an essay about, I think it was about Raisin in the Sun. And I was like “What is going on here?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Watching the video, Ouellette says he immediately realized that this was a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was, that was a moment. You know, I’ve been in this business since 1993 and I don’t remember having like, a really specific, like, reaction to something the way I did when I saw that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Ouellette emailed the district’s superintendent, and explained the situation to her. There was a new technological tool, available to students, that could do their schoolwork. Pretty effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> And she had no idea what it was. And I explained to her what it was and sent her a link and she shot back to me five minutes later and she’s like, yeah, we need to write about this. And so we, we felt, we both felt this sense of like, urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> The superintendent asked Ouellette to write a memo to the district’s teachers. Ouellette is a technology guy, and out of curiosity and excitement, he decided to experiment. Could ChatGPT draft the memo? He asked ChatGPT to write the first draft and sent it to the superintendent. She read it and told Ouellette, this is pretty formal language, it doesn’t sound like you. Make it more casual sounding. But Ouellette didn’t rewrite the memo himself. He prompted ChatGPT to revise the memo. And he told it: “Make it more conversational.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> I said, you need to write something funny about how, you know France was gonna win the World Cup. And it like, seamlessly incorporated a little like parenthetical thing about, oh by the way, France is gonna win the World Cup. And in the way it did, it was like magnificent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Here’s the memo ChatGPT wrote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ChatGPT: \u003c/strong> ChatGPT could also be used to help students learn other languages, such as Spanish or French (which, by the way, I think will win the 2022 World Cup). Imagine being able to have a conversation with ChatGPT in French and receiving instant corrections and feedback on your pronunciation and grammar. The possibilities are truly endless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Side note, I’m not that impressed with how ChatGPT did with that World Cup joke. It says that “French” will win the world cup, not “France”. But, that aside, they sent the memo out that Monday. Remember, this was December of 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next few months, Ouellette formed an AI working group in the district. They brought in a guest speaker. They looked at academic policies. They talked to teachers and students. And by the summer of 2023, they had revised academic integrity guidelines as well as some basic training for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette:\u003c/strong> The goal was to inform staff about what this stuff is, to let them know that there are guidelines, and that if they have students, you know, in grades eight or higher, they can use it with their students. But we also wanted to inform staff how to use it for themselves to make their own work more efficient. The theory behind that is if they’re using it, then they’ll be more informed to use it responsibly with their kids. And it’s nowhere near where what it needs to be. I’ll be the first to admit it, but we did something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> What Westwood did was quite a bit more than most districts. Last fall, a survey found only about one quarter of teachers said their school district had provided any guidance or professional development, about AI. That’s two years after the arrival of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Westwood, the faculty learned about ChatGPT pretty early on. Likely before many of their students heard about it. That was NOT true for other schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> The First Time I heard about ChatGPT was in my English Class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>This is Nanki Kaur. She just graduated from American High School, in Fremont, California. And she heard about ChatGPT from another student back in the spring of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> We were having a conversation about how we were going to approach our research paper assignment that was coming up, and you would have to pick an individual of American significance and prove why they were of American significance and what impact they had. And he was talking about how he just asked this AI platform about how his person of American Significance who was BLEEP, had an impact on America and he got a really strong thesis statement. And he said, I didn’t even have to do anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Now, I bleeped that last bit so this student won’t get in trouble.But the point here, Nanki says the thesis statement was actually pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> And we were all confused and we were like, what are you talking about? Like how did you not have to do anything and how do you have such a strong thesis statement? ’cause we were just learning how to write a thesis statement at that time. And he said, there’s this online platform, it’s driven by artificial intelligence and it just writes it for you and it’s, it’s really thorough.It’s really good. You guys should try it. And so that was the first time I heard about it and I was shocked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Nanki talked with our colleague Holly McDede, a reporter based in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Did you try it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I did go home and try it. Not for the same assignment, but I went home and I looked it up like Chat GPT, OpenAI, what is it? And then I asked it a couple questions like what is the weather like, and if I were to write a story about a certain situation,could you write me a story? And it actually answered all my prompts and it wrote me like a solid paragraph, and so I was shocked. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Nanki says she doesn’t know what the other student did with his thesis statement, but she has a guess:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I think he did turn it in and I don’t know what kind of disciplinary action he got because there wasn’t really much set in stone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Do you suspect he didn’t get any disciplinary action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> I do suspect that because he was oddly smug about how well he had done on that assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> As far as Nanki knows, that student didn’t get in any trouble. In fact, she’s not sure the teachers knew about ChatGPT at that point. And Nanki says that the school didn’t seem to catch on that students were using ChatGPT to cheat until the fall of 2023, the next school year. A whole year after ChatGPT launched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nanki says when they did realize what was happening, the school came down hard. Nanki’s AP English teacher held a special class meeting to present the new academic integrity policy, with a list of sanctions if students were caught using Chat GPT or other AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Which included, zeros on the assignments or administrative disciplinary action. And if worse comes to worst, then it would be, suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> At American High School Nanki says their policies didn’t just ban ChatGPT. Students were also told they couldn’t use Grammarly, the grammar check program, or similar AI tools that are often built into students’ browsers. But, the policies weren’t applied consistently. Nanki says her social studies teacher actually encouraged her to use AI for research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> Because she said, I think it’s a really good tool to get all the facts in one spot. Obviously, I’m gonna ask you guys to fact check and cross check, make sure that everything is correct. But I think it’s a really great, you know, tool for you guys to use so that you have everything in one place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly McDede:\u003c/strong> Was that confusing for you or other students?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nanki Kaur:\u003c/strong> It was confusing for me, personally because I was like, I just don’t want to use it at all. Like I don’t even care because I don’t need like this habit. I don’t want it on my computer. I don’t want it anywhere, like I just want it like away from me because I didn’t want to jeopardize any chance of having a good grade in that class or in any of my classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Some 3000 miles away from Nanki, another student had quite a different experience. Woody Goss was wrapping up 8th grade in a public school in the suburbs north of New York city when he spoke to us in the spring of 2024. He says his teachers didn’t really respond to the arrival of ChatGPT. And, that students used AI to get their schoolwork done in almost all of his classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says his science class was the worst. The students all have laptops, but the teacher sits in front of the class, and can’t see what’s on the screens. Woody sits in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> And you can see everybody’s screen and you can see ChatGPT spitting out the text, and you can see them copy and pasting it into their paper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> You could literally see your fellow students using ChatGPT…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss: \u003c/strong> And copying and pasting it, yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> If you could estimate how many people in a classroom of 20 students, how many were using it to cheat in the way you’re describing. How many would you say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> So I’d say that there’s 10 people in that class using it for everything like cheating on, the whole paper is AI, I’d say there’s another 5 that probably half of it’s written by AI, but they do actually read it through and go, “Gee, maybe I don’t wanna include the part that says ‘As a large language model…’” but they like read it through and copy parts and splice bits and do whatever. Then I’d say of, so you’ve got five remaining. I’d say probably 4 of that 5 do the paper legitimately. So there’s 4 people doing it legitimately, and then there’s another one that’s going, and I don’t know, they, it’s kind of a mix, like they plagiarized stuff, but it’s like a paragraph in their entire thing. And I would say, of those 4, I mean, unless you’ve got a really, not a super smart tech kid, I’d say probably all four of those are using AI in some way. It’s just using it appropriately.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Woody says that some of his teachers were apparently totally oblivious to generative AI. But not his science teacher. She tried to encourage students to use it in a way that would help them learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> That teacher was really trying, she seemed to grasp the concept that there was AI being used, and she was like, we’re gonna learn how to use AI, legitimately and like how do we use it in our research? And everybody heard, oh, you can use AI in your paper. And they all didn’t actually listen to what she was saying. Please use it as like a secondary source. And they all went, “okay, I’m gonna use ChatGPT to write my paper. “\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Um, do you have any teachers who effectively managed this? You know, either in their…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> No, I have the science teacher really tried. She really, she did actually provide, unlike all the other teachers, she actually provided instruction like, Hey, here’s how we’re gonna use it. Everybody ignored it, but she did try, right? All my other teachers just flat out ignored it the whole year. Um, except for the ELA teacher who said, we’re all writing paper benchmarks, which was a nightmare. That was just…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Why, why was that a nightmare?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> Because I’d say for a lot of us, not, not even including AI, we’re all digital people on Chromebooks. We don’t, we don’t know how to write a paper benchmark, which you could argue is its own problem. But then you had a million kids yelling and screaming about that, because god forbid you have to write a paper benchmark. Eww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So, according to Woody, his English teacher made the students write things out by hand, which actually did keep people from using ChatGPT. Although Woody thinks that created other problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people have suggested that Woody doesn’t need to worry. According to him he’s doing his work legitimately. Assuming that’s true, and that the other students are using ChatGPT, then it’ll all come out in the wash. He’ll actually learn what he’s supposed to, and the others won’t, and eventually, that will be obvious, and give him an advantage. Maybe in getting into college, maybe on tests, maybe in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Woody doesn’t see it that way. In his world. Grades matter. Students are under pressure. When students choose to cheat, that can impact how the teachers teach the material. And the pace of learning, which puts even more pressure on the students who are trying to do the work themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Woody Goss:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s frustrating. It’s a compounding effect. I’d say at the beginning of the year, there weren’t a lot of students using AI, and I’d say it’s shifted as the pacing gets faster, then more kids feel like they need it ’cause they feel like they’re gonna fail if they don’t have it. So it piles on itself, and it also, I was never the fast worker in the class. I can do the work, but I’m like dyslexic anyway, so it takes me forever to do the work anyway. I’d say the number of people not using it, like the number of people holding out and being like, “I’m gonna do my work legitimately” is going down because it’s just, there’s no room for, especially in the district where I am, where a lot of, we’re very grade grubby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s expected, like you gotta have an A in every class. So everybody is, “I gotta get that A, I gotta get this assignment in on time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> All right. I’d like to bring Justin Reich back to the program. Justin has studied technology in schools over the decades, and he can help us make sense of the stories we just heard. Welcome back Justin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me, Jesse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> So the interviews that I shared took place over a year ago, and we’re now coming up on 3 years since ChatGPT was unveiled in November of 2022. So I’m curious what overall reactions you’re having as you listen back to these stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Well, the first thing it makes me think of is something that we’ve talked about before, which is just this idea of instantaneous arrival is so unusual for an education technology. I mean, the joke we make sometimes is that, you know, “no kid ever dragged their own smart board into a classroom”. Typically education technology was purchased by schools, and that meant the schools could have at least something of a plan before they gave all their teachers online grade books, or they bought all their kids’ Chromebooks, or they bought all their kids’ iPads, or whatever else it is. But there is zero time for planning. There’s zero time for preparation. You know, Steve Ouellette says, “This is urgent”.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just, there’s something which is happening right now and we need to deal with it. And then schools have really different capacities to deal with that. So an affluent place like Westwood, where they probably have recovered pretty well from the pandemic where things are feeling like they’re back on track, they probably have plenty of resources to hire substitute teachers, you know, the population of kids they serve have all kinds of challenges, but not nearly, the challenges they might encounter in some of their urban neighborhoods nearby or rural neighborhoods out west. They’re in a good place to be able to say, “Oh, we’ve, I’ve got some extra time to be able to manage this. Like, let’s get started.” Let’s, you know, teachers have extra time to be on the working group, “Let’s get started working on this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For, at other places, many, many schools in November 2022, in the spring of 2023, were still drowning in the challenges of chronic absenteeism of learning, loss of school that felt like it really hadn’t bounced back yet. And so this new thing shows up, and not every school in the country is on the same footing in figuring out how to deal with it. But of course, even if a school doesn’t have an institutional plan to deal with it, every teacher has to deal with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So Ms O’Neill walks into her classroom and all of her students are using Bing. And she goes, well, you know, Bing! Bing is the web browser that you use to download Google Chrome, so you can never have to use Bing again. Why are all my students using Bing on a Chromebook? Like none of this makes sense. And what a great story, to remind us how significantly and quickly things changed and how there was no choice to postpone this. There was no way to say, ah, “ we’ll just buy, maybe we’ll buy the smart boards, but we’ll buy them next year, or we’ll buy them two years after that. Let’s just work on other stuff for now.” You, as an educator, had this in your classroom and had to decide what you were gonna do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Well, speaking of no option to postpone, I wanna play you something that Sam Altman said about all of this back in 2023. You know that Sam Altman was one of the founders of OpenAI, the company responsible for ChatGPT. And he’s the CEO. You may remember he was actually ousted from the company briefly and then reinstated in an episode they’re now calling the blip, and one thing he’s gotten some criticism for is just releasing new versions of ChatGPT out into the world, arguably without a lot of thought about what impact that might have or without a lot of support for institutions like schools that might be impacted by AI. And in 2023, the hosts of the New York Times podcast, Hard Fork asked him about that. And here’s what he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Altman:\u003c/strong> You know, one example that I mean is instructive because it was the first and the loudest is what happened with ChatGPT and education. Days, at least weeks. But I think days after the release of ChatGPT school districts were like falling all over themselves to ban ChatGPT. And that didn’t really surprise us, like that we could have predicted and did predict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The thing that happened after that quickly was, you know, like weeks to months, was school districts and teachers saying, Hey, actually we made a mistake and this is really important part of the future of education and the benefits far outweigh the downside. And not only are we banning it, we’re encouraging our teachers to make use of it in the classroom. We’re encouraging our students to get really good at this tool because it’s gonna be part of the way people live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, you know, then there was like a big discussion about what, what the kind of path forward should be. And that is just not something that could have happened without releasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>So Justin, you were paying pretty close attention in 2022 and 2023 when ChatGPT was first unleashed upon schools. Do you think Altman’s account is historically accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Well, I actually got to hear Sam Altman give some version of this because he came to MIT, not long after November, 2022, gave a talk that was facilitated by Sally Kornbluth, our president. And he said something along the lines, I think the question was something like, you know, where are there big wins for ChatGPT? And he was like, well, education’s a slam dunk. This is a place where very obviously, we’re seeing benefits, not really seeing any downsides. Things are just immediately improving society. So this is gonna be a fast win for us. And yeah, you know, it’s, it’s delusional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not at all connected to what is actually happening in reality in schools. I’m sure some of it is, if I built a technology product, I’d be pretty excited to hear the voices of people who are happy with it. You know, people in powerful places don’t always have great sources of information about what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes : \u003c/strong>And, and everything he says has a kind of factual basis to it, but it adds up to a kind of orderly picture of what happens, that to me doesn’t really reflect the chaos that educators were experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich:\u003c/strong> Also, if you just know something about schools, this idea that, like, “as soon as it was released they were all doing something”, it’s like, no, that’s not how schools work. And then “really quickly after doing it, they reverse themselves” and you’re like, no, you do not under- like, schools are carrier fleets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Schools are super tankers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Reich: \u003c/strong>Schools are super tankers. Like when they turn, they turn slowly and they turn with inertia. And when they go back it takes a lot of time to move that backwards, but even just in the handful of stories that we heard,we heard from a couple of students, one teacher who said there was nothing happening in their schools. It wasn’t being banned, it wasn’t being encouraged. Teachers were kind of figuring out on their own what to do with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I mean, if you talk to teachers and students, it’s not very hard to get stories where you get the sense of like, oh, this is not an unambiguously good thing. Like this is making Nanki nervous because pretty clearly students are using this to bypass their learning in ways that they shouldn’t. Woody is really concerned that his classes are moving faster than they’re supposed to because teachers are getting the wrong feedback. From students because students, instead of doing the work and doing the learning and figuring things out, are just copying, pasting questions from ChatGPT into their assignments and this, and Woody is trying to, is telling us he’s trying to do the right thing and this isn’t working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And even Steve, who’s in like the best possible circumstances, a really experienced, really talented tech director with a really supportive superintendent, really supportive community, cool things happening in their schools. As much good work as he’s doing, I think he still feels like, that he’s just barely taking the first steps that might be needed to get his hands wrapped around this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and in fact, I actually played that Sam Altman tape for him and you know, he, and arguably what Sam Altman describes most closely resembles Westwood and Steve Ouellette, like of all the people we heard from, his story is the closest to Sam Altman’s account of what happened. But this, this is what he had to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Ouellette: \u003c/strong>Not to highlight Westwood, but when I talk to my peers in neighboring districts, no one’s doing anything. Like they’re just starting to create, think about creating guidelines. And so, we’re kind of just like building the plane, you know, while we fly it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes:\u003c/strong> For the next 6 episodes, we’re going to hear stories of building the plane as we fly it. We’ll hear from the teachers who are struggling to prevent their students from using ChatGPT to bypass learning and thinking; We’ll talk with students about why they turn to AI to get their work done, and what it feels like to be falsely accused of using AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’ll hear from teachers, students, and school leaders who have found ways to use AI to help them teach or learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in our next episode, what even is generative AI? And why does the so-called “jagged frontier” of this technology make it so challenging when it shows up in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It doesn’t think, it doesn’t understand, it predicts one word at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>That’s next time on the Homework Machine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by me, Jesse Dukes. We had editing from Ruxandra Guidi and Alexandra Salomon. Reporting and research from Holly McDede, Natasha Esteves, Andrew Meriwether, and Chris Bagg. Sound design and music supervision by Steven Jackson. Production support from Yebu Ji. Data analysis from Manee Ngozi Nnamani and Manasa Kudumu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Josh Sheldon, Camila Lee, Liz Hutner, and Eric Klopfer. Administrative support from Jessica Rondon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The research and reporting you heard in this episode was supported by the Spencer Foundation, the Kapor Foundation, the Jameel World Education Lab, the Social and Ethical Responsibility of Computing Initiative at MIT, and the RAISE initiative, Responsible AI for Social Empowerment and Education also at MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, we had support from Google’s Academic Research Awards program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Homework Machine is a production of the Teaching Systems Lab, Justin Reich Director, the lab is located at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, more commonly known to the world as MIT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://teachlabpodcast.com/\">teachlabpodcast.com\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://tsl.mit.edu/AI\">tsl.mit.edu/AI\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>That was The Homework Machine from MIT’s Teachlab podcast.\u003cbr>\nYou can find the whole series wherever you get your podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll be back next month with a brand new episode of Mindshift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65821\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1290px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-65821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561.jpg\" alt=\"Teen opening record player with crate of records at his feet.\" width=\"1290\" height=\"2275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561.jpg 1290w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-160x282.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-768x1354.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-871x1536.jpg 871w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/IMG_8561-1161x2048.jpg 1161w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1290px) 100vw, 1290px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Student Shane Solis plays a record at The Mix, the teen-only section of the San Francisco Public Library main branch. \u003ccite>(Ki Sung/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Public libraries have made significant transformations over the past decade to better serve community needs in the wake of technological and social change. Now, as public school funding faces an uncertain future, how will libraries step in? We’ll talk to some library kids who go to teen-only spaces after school and hear about how librarians are working hard to meet their needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3269390167\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Welcome to the MindShift Podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, there is a really cool place where teens love to hang out; no parents are allowed. There is no fee for admission but you gotta be checked in. What is this place?\u003cbr>\nIt’s \u003ca href=\"https://sfpl.org/teens/the-mix\">The Mix,\u003c/a> the teen only space inside the main branch of the San Francisco Public Library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Student Maelynn likes the hands-on activities\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>I just paint a canvas or I make, like, some bracelets, which is really cool to me. And then also, they have, like, video games, which is cool because I love playing Mario Kart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: 14-year-old Adam likes to make online content, after he finishes his homework, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adam: \u003c/strong>I just record gameplay sometimes with my voice and it’s really fun because I’m pretty good at it, but and the games I like to play just makes me happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>Like I don’t ever hear nobody say like oh We’re gonna hang out at library. It’s just be like, oh, I’m gonna hang out at The Mix but also not many people know about The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix has its own entrance on the second floor of the library. Inside there’s everything you can imagine to foster creativity. There’s a room with 3-d printers, sewing machines, mannequins and cabinets full of art supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two soundproof rooms with instruments where teens can make studio quality music recordings, podcasts or make green screen videos. There are tables for playing games like dungeons and dragons, a “carpet garden” lounge area for chilling or scrolling on phones; nooks with seating for large and small groups; a row of computers for playing video games; and of course bookshelves full of manga.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While I’m there, I see teens occupying every section of The Mix doing activities or just happily hanging out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On today’s episode of the MindShift Podcast, you’ll hear about how three libraries have transformed their services to create third spaces, that are neither home nor school, where teens can flourish. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to understand The Mix in San Francisco, you have to go back in time to 2009 in Chicago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That was when Chicago Public Libraries embarked on a bold plan through a program called YOUMedia. It was part of a broader initiative called \u003ca href=\"https://www.macfound.org/programs/pastwork/learning/\">Digital Media and Learning\u003c/a>. YOUMedia was designed to give students access to tech and digital media while in a safe environment with trusted adult mentors. Remember, this was in an era when there were fewer computers with WiFi at home for kids, so having these services at libraries made a lot of sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The idea was to lean into tech and build a bridge between letting teens do what they want, and making sure teens are in a positive environment. And it was a really new idea at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to teach digital media skills, educators tried a structured curriculum similar to school but found that that wasn’t widely popular with youth.\u003cbr>\nSo they rolled out workshop models that teens could explore at their own pace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric Brown who helped conduct research about YOUmedia’s impact, explained how staff gets teens to engage with technology, during a 2013 seminar:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Brown:\u003c/strong> they’re not forcing it down your throat. It’s a good place that gives you the option. You can pursue it or you can just chill. And you pursue it when you’re ready. And that’s very much the ethos of teens who go to YOU media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>:The YOUmedia model was so successful that the Chicago Public Library system expanded it to \u003ca href=\"https://www.chipublib.org/programs-and-partnerships/youmedia/\">29 branch locations\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other library systems around the country soon followed their example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But teens will always keep you on your toes. So being on the look out for what they need is something librarians are always focused on. And in New York, they saw one of those needs emerge recently. Here’s Siva Ramakrishnan, director of young adult services at the New York Public Library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>The pandemic really like brought into sharp relief the need for spaces where teens can build community again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>After all of that isolation, you know, it was such a difficult and weird and for many teens like traumatic time, right? And so at NYPL, we have done a number of things.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nSiva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>So one is that we have really invested in our spaces. This is kind of a, you know, historically a trend in libraries nationwide is that often there isn’t a space that is actually reserved for teenagers, right? Just historically there might be a general children’s area and that tends to skew, fairly young and adorable, right? But then there’s an adult area, right? And that tends to be very quiet with adults who are like in deep focus, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Siva Ramakrishnan: So we have really engaged in work over the past few years in carving out spaces in our libraries that are for teens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: What’s important is that the library isn’t just a space, but offers programming. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nypl.org/blog/2024/05/01/siva-ramakrishnan-and-steven-mahoney-receive-movers-shakers-honor-library-journal\">And in the new york public library’s teen centers, that are in several branches all over the city, they focus on\u003c/a> programs that teach civic engagement, college and career readiness along with cool things like how to run a 3d printer or facilitate a banned book club, or how to organize fashion design boot camps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan:\u003c/strong> We actually see a ton of teens across our libraries. NYPL has like over 90 neighborhood libraries. And like last school year in summer, we saw almost 120,000 teens who chose after a super long day at school to come to the library to their local branch and to participate in an after school program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Critics of teen spaces that focus on things other than literacy can take heart because there’s one really fascinating upside about the teens in New York. According to Ramakrishnan, they’re not only coming to the library more, these teens actually read more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen:\u003c/strong> Hmm, There are so many types of different media that we consume now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Doreen, a New York Public Library student ambassador whose job is to tutor kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen: \u003c/strong>I think that people perceive reading only as books or physical books. I know a lot of people who read on their Kindles or me personally, I have a heavy book bag. I take my iPad and I download a PDF of my book or my textbook and I read through there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>MUSIC\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, being IN a library can help facilitate reading even if your original reason for showing up is totally unrelated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Back in San Francisco at The Mix, student library ambassador Shane Macias considers his current relationship with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shane: \u003c/strong>Like I’ve checked out books and taken books that were there, they get for free. I read them at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix really reinvented what a library could be to its community. But when it started about a decade ago, the concept behind a teen space also ran counter to a traditional understanding of libraries as a place that houses books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>Some people were against this project in the community and voiced concern, like this sounds like a rec center and a daycare center for teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Eric Hannan, a librarian who helped start The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>And I’ve worked in libraries 35 years, that isn’t what libraries are supposed to do, but often it ends up being part of your job that you have what we used to call latchkey kids in the library after school, they have nowhere to go, both parents working or single parent working, they go chill in the libraries. So they’re gonna be there anyway, so we might as well kind of cater to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to cater to teens, the library got input from them. \u003ca href=\"https://youmedia.org/blog/in-san-francisco-teens-design-a-living-room-for-high-tech-learning-at-the-public-library/\">a board of advising youth (bay) weighed in and designed the San Francisco space around the idea of HoMaGo (ho-mah-go), an acronum for hang out, mess around, geek out. This board got final say on specific aspects of the space\u003c/a> like furniture preferences, programming and they even advocated for a dedicated bathroom in the mix. For Shane, a teen-designed space fits the bill.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nShane:\u003c/strong> I’d say to have space like this is very important because for me, in school and other libraries I’ve went to, I was either stuck with adults or little kids, which wasn’t uncomfortable, but it’s like, I wasn’t around people my age, so it felt really awkward and I guess did feel uncomfortable. It just kind of bothered me why the teens don’t have many places to go. Like, obviously we can go chill at the park or go back home but sometimes maybe we want more, I’d say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, as more libraries act as community centers for teens, they are meeting needs that schools, among other institutions, are unable to serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>The Library has a big role to play in helping teens in particular adapt to stress, stressors in life, be they political or, you know, biological COVID or just developmental. They’re just going through a unique time that is very short in their life, six or seven-ish years. And there’s a lot libraries can do to help ease some of the pain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Student Maelynn likes the hands-on activities\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>I just paint a canvas or I make, like, some bracelets, which is really cool to me. And then also, they have, like, video games, which is cool because I love playing Mario Kart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: 14-year-old Adam likes to make online content, after he finishes his homework, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adam: \u003c/strong>I just record gameplay sometimes with my voice and it’s really fun because I’m pretty good at it, but and the games I like to play just makes me happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maelynn: \u003c/strong>Like I don’t ever hear nobody say like oh We’re gonna hang out at library. It’s just be like, oh, I’m gonna hang out at The Mix but also not many people know about The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix has its own entrance on the second floor of the library. Inside there’s everything you can imagine to foster creativity. There’s a room with 3-d printers, sewing machines, mannequins and cabinets full of art supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two soundproof rooms with instruments where teens can make studio quality music recordings, podcasts or make green screen videos. There are tables for playing games like dungeons and dragons, a “carpet garden” lounge area for chilling or scrolling on phones; nooks with seating for large and small groups; a row of computers for playing video games; and of course bookshelves full of manga.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While I’m there, I see teens occupying every section of The Mix doing activities or just happily hanging out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On today’s episode of the MindShift Podcast, you’ll hear about how three libraries have transformed their services to create third spaces, that are neither home nor school, where teens can flourish. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to understand The Mix in San Francisco, you have to go back in time to 2009 in Chicago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That was when Chicago Public Libraries embarked on a bold plan through a program called YOUMedia. It was part of a broader initiative called \u003ca href=\"https://www.macfound.org/programs/pastwork/learning/\">Digital Media and Learning\u003c/a>. YOUMedia was designed to give students access to tech and digital media while in a safe environment with trusted adult mentors. Remember, this was in an era when there were fewer computers with WiFi at home for kids, so having these services at libraries made a lot of sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The idea was to lean into tech and build a bridge between letting teens do what they want, and making sure teens are in a positive environment. And it was a really new idea at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to teach digital media skills, educators tried a structured curriculum similar to school but found that that wasn’t widely popular with youth.\u003cbr>\nSo they rolled out workshop models that teens could explore at their own pace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric Brown who helped conduct research about YOUmedia’s impact, explained how staff gets teens to engage with technology, during a 2013 seminar:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Brown:\u003c/strong> they’re not forcing it down your throat. It’s a good place that gives you the option. You can pursue it or you can just chill. And you pursue it when you’re ready. And that’s very much the ethos of teens who go to YOU media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>:The YOUmedia model was so successful that the Chicago Public Library system expanded it to \u003ca href=\"https://www.chipublib.org/programs-and-partnerships/youmedia/\">29 branch locations\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other library systems around the country soon followed their example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But teens will always keep you on your toes. So being on the look out for what they need is something librarians are always focused on. And in New York, they saw one of those needs emerge recently. Here’s Siva Ramakrishnan, director of young adult services at the New York Public Library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>The pandemic really like brought into sharp relief the need for spaces where teens can build community again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>After all of that isolation, you know, it was such a difficult and weird and for many teens like traumatic time, right? And so at NYPL, we have done a number of things.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nSiva Ramakrishnan: \u003c/strong>So one is that we have really invested in our spaces. This is kind of a, you know, historically a trend in libraries nationwide is that often there isn’t a space that is actually reserved for teenagers, right? Just historically there might be a general children’s area and that tends to skew, fairly young and adorable, right? But then there’s an adult area, right? And that tends to be very quiet with adults who are like in deep focus, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Siva Ramakrishnan: So we have really engaged in work over the past few years in carving out spaces in our libraries that are for teens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: What’s important is that the library isn’t just a space, but offers programming. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nypl.org/blog/2024/05/01/siva-ramakrishnan-and-steven-mahoney-receive-movers-shakers-honor-library-journal\">And in the new york public library’s teen centers, that are in several branches all over the city, they focus on\u003c/a> programs that teach civic engagement, college and career readiness along with cool things like how to run a 3d printer or facilitate a banned book club, or how to organize fashion design boot camps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Siva Ramakrishnan:\u003c/strong> We actually see a ton of teens across our libraries. NYPL has like over 90 neighborhood libraries. And like last school year in summer, we saw almost 120,000 teens who chose after a super long day at school to come to the library to their local branch and to participate in an after school program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Critics of teen spaces that focus on things other than literacy can take heart because there’s one really fascinating upside about the teens in New York. According to Ramakrishnan, they’re not only coming to the library more, these teens actually read more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen:\u003c/strong> Hmm, There are so many types of different media that we consume now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Doreen, a New York Public Library student ambassador whose job is to tutor kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doreen: \u003c/strong>I think that people perceive reading only as books or physical books. I know a lot of people who read on their Kindles or me personally, I have a heavy book bag. I take my iPad and I download a PDF of my book or my textbook and I read through there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>MUSIC\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, being IN a library can help facilitate reading even if your original reason for showing up is totally unrelated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: Back in San Francisco at The Mix, student library ambassador Shane Macias considers his current relationship with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shane: \u003c/strong>Like I’ve checked out books and taken books that were there, they get for free. I read them at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The Mix really reinvented what a library could be to its community. But when it started about a decade ago, the concept behind a teen space also ran counter to a traditional understanding of libraries as a place that houses books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>Some people were against this project in the community and voiced concern, like this sounds like a rec center and a daycare center for teenagers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: That’s Eric Hannan, a librarian who helped start The Mix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>And I’ve worked in libraries 35 years, that isn’t what libraries are supposed to do, but often it ends up being part of your job that you have what we used to call latchkey kids in the library after school, they have nowhere to go, both parents working or single parent working, they go chill in the libraries. So they’re gonna be there anyway, so we might as well kind of cater to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: In order to cater to teens, the library got input from them. \u003ca href=\"https://youmedia.org/blog/in-san-francisco-teens-design-a-living-room-for-high-tech-learning-at-the-public-library/\">a board of advising youth (bay) weighed in and designed the San Francisco space around the idea of HoMaGo (ho-mah-go), an acronum for hang out, mess around, geek out. This board got final say on specific aspects of the space\u003c/a> like furniture preferences, programming and they even advocated for a dedicated bathroom in the mix. For Shane, a teen-designed space fits the bill.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nShane:\u003c/strong> I’d say to have space like this is very important because for me, in school and other libraries I’ve went to, I was either stuck with adults or little kids, which wasn’t uncomfortable, but it’s like, I wasn’t around people my age, so it felt really awkward and I guess did feel uncomfortable. It just kind of bothered me why the teens don’t have many places to go. Like, obviously we can go chill at the park or go back home but sometimes maybe we want more, I’d say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: It turns out, as more libraries act as community centers for teens, they are meeting needs that schools, among other institutions, are unable to serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eric Hannan: \u003c/strong>The Library has a big role to play in helping teens in particular adapt to stress, stressors in life, be they political or, you know, biological COVID or just developmental. They’re just going through a unique time that is very short in their life, six or seven-ish years. And there’s a lot libraries can do to help ease some of the pain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung\u003c/strong>: The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teacher Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works. But recently, her \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">eighth-grade civics students \u003c/a>didn’t see a clear role for themselves in democracy, particularly because they were learning within the confines of the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, she tried something new – she invited \u003ca href=\"https://secure.smore.com/n/x2yqe\">older adults into her classroom to participate on a panel to answer a basic question\u003c/a>, “Why do we have civics?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Panelists shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights, which brought history to life for students in a way textbooks rarely do. In turn, the older adults asked students about their views on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65296/with-ai-changing-everything-heres-how-teachers-can-shape-the-new-culture-of-learning\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> and whether they were interested in civic life and volunteering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her hope for both the older adults and students was that they would connect with one another through learning about each other and start building community connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6728408/\">Research shows intergenerational programs\u003c/a> can improve students’ empathy, literacy and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54968/how-classroom-political-discussions-controversies-too-prepare-students-for-needed-civic-participation\"> civic engagement\u003c/a>, but developing those relationships outside of the home are hard to come by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65780\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 249px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-65780\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"249\" height=\"311\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg 640w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780-160x200.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 249px) 100vw, 249px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We are the \u003ca href=\"https://cogenerate.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Beyond-Passing-The-Torch.pdf\">most age segregated society,” said Mitchell.\u003c/a> “There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While some schools like \u003ca href=\"https://www.jenksps.org/o/west-elementary/page/grace-skilled-nursing-and-therapy-center\">Jenks West Elementary in Oklahoma\u003c/a> have built daily intergenerational interaction into their infrastructure, Mitchell shows that powerful learning experiences can happen within a single classroom. Her approach to intergenerational learning is supported by four takeaways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 24px; color: #2b2b2b;\">1. Have Conversations With Students Before An Event\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nBefore the panel, Mitchell guided students through a structured \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54378/how-to-create-deeper-student-learning-experiences-through-questions\">question-generating process\u003c/a>. She gave them broad topics to brainstorm around and encouraged them to think about what they were genuinely curious to ask someone from an older generation. After reviewing their suggestions, she selected the questions that would work best for the event and assigned student volunteers to ask them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To help the older adult panelists feel comfortable, Mitchell also hosted a brunch before the event. It gave panelists a chance to meet each other and ease into the school environment before stepping in front of a room full of eighth graders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of preparation makes a big difference, said Ruby Belle Booth, a researcher from the \u003ca href=\"https://circle.tufts.edu/\">Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement\u003c/a> at Tufts University. “Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults,” she said. When students know what to expect, they’re more confident stepping into unfamiliar conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That scaffolding helped students ask thoughtful, big-picture questions like: “What were the major civic issues of your life?” and “What was it like to be in a country at war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>2. Build Connections Into Work You’re Already Doing\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mitchell didn’t start from scratch. In the past, she had assigned students to interview older adults. But she noticed those conversations often stayed surface level. “How’s school? How’s soccer?” Mitchell said, summarizing the questions often asked. “The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She saw an opportunity to go deeper. By bringing those intergenerational conversations into her civics class, Mitchell hoped students would hear first-hand how older adults experienced civic life and begin to see themselves as future voters and engaged citizens. “\u003ca href=\"https://www.democraticknowledgeproject.org/\">[A majority] of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best system\u003c/a>,” she said. “But a third of young people are like, ‘Yeah, we don’t really have to vote.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Integrating this work into existing curriculum can be practical and powerful. “Thinking about how you can start with what you have is a really great way to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel,” said Booth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That could mean taking a guest speaker visit and building in time for students to ask questions or even inviting the speaker to ask questions of the students. The key, said Booth, is shifting from one-way learning to a more reciprocal exchange. “Start to think about little places where you can implement this, or where these intergenerational connections might already be happening, and try to enhance the benefits and learning outcomes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65769\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 960px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-65769 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"960\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-768x432.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Panelists from Ivy Mitchell’s intergenerational event shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>3. Don’t Get Into Divisive Issues Off The Bat\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For the first event, Mitchell and her students intentionally stayed away from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63250/politicians-love-to-talk-about-race-and-lgbtq-issues-in-school-teachers-and-teens-not-so-much\">controversial topics\u003c/a>. That decision helped create a space where both panelists and students could feel more at ease. Booth agreed that it’s important to start slow. “You don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues,” she said.\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\"> A structured conversation\u003c/a> can help build comfort and trust, which lays the groundwork for deeper, more challenging discussions down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also important to prepare older adults for how certain topics may be deeply personal to students. “A big one that we see divides with between generations is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/61031/teen-girls-and-lgbtq-youth-plagued-by-violence-and-trauma-survey-says\">LGBTQ identities\u003c/a>,” said Booth. “Being a young person with one of those identities in the classroom and then talking to older adults who may not have this similar understanding of the expansiveness of gender identity or sexuality can be challenging.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even without diving into the most divisive topics, Mitchell felt the panel sparked rich and meaningful conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>4. Leave Time For Reflection Afterwards\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leaving \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60009/keep-those-diaries-strategies-for-centering-student-voices-and-improving-reflection-habits\">space for students to reflect\u003c/a> after an intergenerational event is crucial, said Booth. “Talking about how it went — not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation — is vital,” she said. “It helps cement and deepen the learnings and takeaways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mitchell could tell the event resonated with her students in real time. “In our auditorium, the chairs are squeaky,” she said. “Whenever we have an event they’re not interested in, the squeaking starts and you know they’re not focused. And we didn’t have that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afterward, Mitchell invited students to write thank-you notes to the senior panelists and reflect on the experience. The feedback was overwhelmingly positive with one common theme. “All my students said consistently, ‘We wish we had more time,’” Mitchell said. “‘And we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.’” That feedback is shaping how Mitchell plans her next event. She wants to loosen the structure and give students more space to guide the dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Mitchell, the impact is clear. “The intergenerational voice brings so much more value and deepens the meaning of what you’re trying to do,” she said. “It makes civics come alive when you bring in people who have lived a civic life to talk about the things they’ve done and the ways they’ve connected to their community. And that can inspire kids to also connect to their community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2332768897\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s 10am at Grace Skilled Nursing Facility in Oklahoma and a cluster of 4- and 5-year-olds bounce with excitement, their sneakers squeaking on the linoleum floor of the rec room. Around them, seniors in wheelchairs and armchairs follow along as a teacher counts off stretches. They shake out limb by limb and every once in a while a kid adds a silly flair to one of the movements and everyone cracks a little smile as they try and keep up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"678\">\u003cem data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"676\">[Audio of teacher counting with students]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"786\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"696\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kids and seniors are moving together in rhythm. This is just another Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"820\">\u003cem data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"818\">[Audio of grands exercising]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"1094\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"838\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These preschoolers and kindergartners go to school here, inside of the senior living facility. The children are here every day—learning their ABCs, doing art projects, and eating snacks alongside the senior residents of Grace – who they call the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1390\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1113\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> When it originally started, it was the nursing home. And beside the nursing home was an early childhood center, which was like a daycare that was tied to our district. And so the residents and the students there at our early childhood center started making some connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1408\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Amanda Moore, the principal of Jenks West Elementary, the school inside of Grace. In the early days, the childhood center noticed the bonds that were forming between the youngest and oldest members of the community. The owners of Grace saw how much it meant to the residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They decided, okay, what can we do to make this a full-time program?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1930\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1803\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They did a renovation and they built on space so that we could have our students there housed in the nursing home every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"2075\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"1969\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is MindShift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Today we’ll explore how intergenerational learning works and why it might be exactly what schools need more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2316\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Book Buddies is one of the regular activities students at Jenks West Elementary do with the grands. Every other week, kids walk in an orderly line through the facility to meet their reading partners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2536\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Katy Wilson, a Kindergarten teacher at the school, says just being around older adults changes how students move and act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2742\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2678\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They start to learn body control more than a typical student.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2933\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2760\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> We know we can’t run out there with the grands. We know it’s not safe. We could trip somebody. They could get hurt. We learn that balance more because it’s higher stakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2987\">\u003cem data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2985\">[Mariah giving students their grands assignment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3098\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3005\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In the common room, kids settle in at tables. A teacher pairs students up with the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3224\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the kids read. Sometimes the grands do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3294\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Either way, it’s one-on-one time with a trusted adult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3528\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3393\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> And that’s something that I couldn’t accomplish in a typical classroom without all those tutors essentially built in to the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3546\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And it’s working. Jenks West has tracked student progress. Kids who go through the program tend to score higher on reading assessments than their peers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3952\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3719\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They get to read books that maybe we don’t cover on the academic side that are more fun books, which is great because they get to read about what they’re interested in that maybe we wouldn’t have time for in the typical classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"4020\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"3970\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grandma Margaret enjoys her time with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4191\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4043\">Grandma Margaret:\u003c/strong> I get to work with the children, and you’ll go down to read a book. Sometimes they’ll read it to you because they’ve got it memorized. Life would be kind of boring without them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4409\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4278\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> There’s also research that kids in these types of programs are more likely to have better attendance and stronger social skills. One of the long-term benefits is that students become more comfortable being around people who are different from them. Like a grand in a wheelchair, or one who doesn’t communicate easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4640\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amanda told me a story about a student who left Jenks West and later attended a different school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"5230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"4759\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> There were some students in her class that were in wheelchairs. She said her daughter naturally befriended these students and the teacher had actually recognized that and told the mom that. And she said, I truly believe it was the interactions that she had with the residents at Grace that helped her to have that understanding and empathy and not feel like there was anything that she needed to be worried about or afraid of, that it was just a part of her every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5418\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5248\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program benefits the grands too. There’s evidence that older adults experience improved mental health and less social isolation when they spend time with children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5628\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5483\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even the grands who are bedbound benefit. Just having kids in the building—hearing their laughter and songs in the hallway—makes a difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5646\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So why don’t more places have these programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> You really have to have everybody on board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5800\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5777\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s Amanda again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5908\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5819\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because both sides saw the benefits, we were able to create that partnership together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5926\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s likely not something that a school could do on its own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6008\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because it is expensive. They maintain that facility for us. If anything goes wrong in the rooms, they’re the ones that are taking care of all of that. They built a playground there for us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6335\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6218\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grace even employs a full-time liaison, who is in charge of communication between the nursing home and the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6503\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6354\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> She is always there and she helps organize our activities. We meet monthly to plan out the activities residents are going to do with the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6814\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6542\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Younger people interacting with older people has tons of advantages. But what if your school doesn’t have the resources to build a senior center? After the break, we look at how a middle school is making intergenerational learning work in a different way. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"7206\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"6872\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before the break we learned about how intergenerational learning can boost literacy and empathy in younger children, not to mention a bunch of benefits for older adults. In a middle school classroom, those same ideas are being used in a new way—to help strengthen something that many people worry is on shaky ground: our democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7246\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> My name is Ivy Mitchell. I teach eighth grade civics in Massachusetts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7642\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7337\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Ivy’s civics class, students learn how to be active members of the community. They also learn that they’ll need to work with people of all ages. After more than 20 years of teaching, Ivy noticed that older and younger generations don’t often get a chance to talk to each other—unless they’re family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7949\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7661\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> We are the most age-segregated society. This is the time when our age segregation has been the most extreme. There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"8047\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"7990\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When kids do talk to adults, it’s often surface level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8066\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> How’s school? How’s soccer? The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8567\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8186\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That’s a missed opportunity for all kinds of reasons. But as a civics teacher Ivy is especially concerned about one thing: cultivating students who are interested in voting when they get older. She believes that having deeper conversations with older adults about their experiences can help students better understand the past—and maybe feel more invested in shaping the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8586\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Ninety percent of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best way, the only best way. Whereas like a third of young people are like, yeah, you know, we don’t have to vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8782\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ivy wants to close that gap by connecting generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"9109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"8879\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Democracy is a very valuable thing. And the only place my students are hearing it is in my classroom. And if I could bring more voices in to say no, democracy has its flaws, but it’s still the best system we’ve ever discovered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9127\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea that civic learning can come from cross-generational relationships is backed by research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9421\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9250\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I do a lot of thinking about youth voice and institutions, youth civic development, and how young people can be more involved in our democracy and in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9462\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby Belle Booth wrote a report about youth civic engagement. In it she says together young people and older adults can tackle big challenges facing our democracy—like polarization, culture wars, extremism, and misinformation. But sometimes, misunderstandings between generations get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"10137\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"9784\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Young people, I think, tend to look at older generations as having sort of antiquated views on everything. And that’s largely in part because younger generations have different views on issues. They have different experiences. They have different understandings of modern technology. And as a result, they sort of judge older generations accordingly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10249\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10155\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Young people’s feelings towards older generations can be summed up in two dismissive words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10375\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10288\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> “OK, Boomer,” which is often said in response to an older person being out of touch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10506\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10397\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of humor and sass and attitude that young people bring to that relationship and that divide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10698\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10528\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> It speaks to the challenges that young people face in feeling like they have a voice and they feel like they’re often dismissed by older people—because often they are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10780\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10716\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And older people have thoughts about younger generations too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10890\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10802\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Sometimes older generations are like, okay, it’s all good. Gen Z is going to save us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"11053\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"10912\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> That puts a lot of pressure on the very small group of Gen Z who is really activist and engaged and trying to make a lot of social change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11255\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11071\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the big challenges that educators face in creating intergenerational learning opportunities is the power imbalance between adults and students. And schools only amplify that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11611\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11277\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> When you move that already existing age dynamic into a school setting where all the adults in the room are holding additional power—teachers giving out grades, principals calling students to their office and having disciplinary powers—it makes it so that those already entrenched age dynamics are even more challenging to overcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11652\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way to offset this power imbalance could be bringing people from outside of the school into the classroom, which is exactly what Ivy Mitchell, our teacher in Boston, decided to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11896\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11866\">Ivy Mitchell :\u003c/strong> Thank you for coming today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"12021\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"11914\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Her students came up with a list of questions, and Ivy assembled a panel of older adults to answer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12377\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12048\">Ivy Mitchell (event):\u003c/strong> The idea behind this event is I saw a problem and I’m trying to solve it. And the idea is to bring the generations together to help answer the question, why do we have civics? I know a lot of you wonder about that. And also to have them share their life experience and start building community connections, which are so vital.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12395\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One by one, students took the mic and asked questions to Berta, Steve, Tony, Eileen, and Jane. Questions like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12524\">Student:\u003c/strong> Do any of you think it’s hard to pay taxes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12584\">Student:\u003c/strong> What is it like to be in a country at war, either at home or abroad?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12669\">Student:\u003c/strong> What were the major civic issues of your life, and what experiences shaped your views on these issues?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12844\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12792\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And one by one they gave answers to the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"13001\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"12865\">Steve Humphrey:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think for me, the Vietnam War, for example, was a huge issue in my lifetime, and, you know, still is. I mean, it shaped us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13018\">Tony Surge:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we had, in our generation, we had a lot going on at once. We also had a big civil rights movement, Martin Luther King, that you probably will study, all very historical, if you go back and look at that. So during our generation, we saw a lot of major changes inside the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13329\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> The one that I kind of remember, I was young during the Vietnam War, but women’s rights. So back in ‘74 is when women could actually get a credit card without—if they were married—without their husband’s signature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13648\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13564\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then they flipped the panel around so elders could ask questions to students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13728\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13666\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> What are the concerns that those of you in school have now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13897\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13746\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> I mean, especially with computers and AI—does the AI scare any of you? Or do you feel that this is something you can really adapt to and understand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"14200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"13911\">Student:\u003c/strong> AI is starting to do new things. It can start to take over people’s jobs, which is concerning. There’s AI music now and my dad’s a musician, and that’s concerning because it’s not good right now, but it’s starting to get better. And it could end up taking over people’s jobs eventually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14416\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14214\">Student:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how you’re using it. Like, it can definitely be used for good and helpful things, but if you’re using it to fake images of people or things that they said, it’s not good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14607\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14455\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When Ivy debriefed with students after the event, they had overwhelmingly positive things to say. But there was one piece of feedback that stood out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14626\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> All my students said consistently, we wish we had more time and we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14783\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> They wanted to be able to talk, to really get into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14950\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14858\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Next time, she’s planning to loosen the reins and make space for more authentic dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14952\" data-end=\"15115\">Some of Ruby Belle Booth’s research inspired Ivy’s project. She noted some things that make intergenerational activities a success. Ivy did a lot of these things!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15133\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One: Ivy had conversations with her students where they came up with questions and talked about the event with students and older folks. This can make everyone feel a lot more comfortable and less nervous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15363\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15681\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15518\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Two: They didn’t get into tough and divisive questions during this first event. Maybe you don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15699\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three: Ivy built these connections into the work she was already doing. Ivy had assigned students to interview older adults before, but she wanted to take it further. So she made those conversations part of her class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"16124\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"15941\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Thinking about how you can start with what you have I think is a really great way to start to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16202\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16142\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Four: Ivy had time for reflection and feedback afterward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16472\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16224\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Talking about how it went—not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation for both parties—is vital to really cement, deepen, and further the learnings and takeaways from the opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16641\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16490\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby doesn’t say that intergenerational connections are the only solution for the problems our democracy faces. In fact, on its own it’s not enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"17207\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"16684\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I think that when we’re thinking about the long-term health of democracy, it needs to be grounded in communities and connection and reciprocity. A piece of that, when we’re thinking about including more young people in democracy—having more young people turn out to vote, having more young people who see a pathway to create change in their communities—we have to be thinking about what an inclusive democracy looks like, what a democracy that welcomes young voices looks like. Our democracy has to be intergenerational.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"17209\" data-end=\"17477\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"17209\" data-end=\"17225\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For the students, having conversations with older adults can help make history feel personal. And for the older adults, it’s a chance to share their stories and maybe even see the future a little more clearly through the eyes of the next generation.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teacher Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works. But recently, her \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">eighth-grade civics students \u003c/a>didn’t see a clear role for themselves in democracy, particularly because they were learning within the confines of the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, she tried something new – she invited \u003ca href=\"https://secure.smore.com/n/x2yqe\">older adults into her classroom to participate on a panel to answer a basic question\u003c/a>, “Why do we have civics?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Panelists shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights, which brought history to life for students in a way textbooks rarely do. In turn, the older adults asked students about their views on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65296/with-ai-changing-everything-heres-how-teachers-can-shape-the-new-culture-of-learning\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> and whether they were interested in civic life and volunteering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her hope for both the older adults and students was that they would connect with one another through learning about each other and start building community connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6728408/\">Research shows intergenerational programs\u003c/a> can improve students’ empathy, literacy and\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54968/how-classroom-political-discussions-controversies-too-prepare-students-for-needed-civic-participation\"> civic engagement\u003c/a>, but developing those relationships outside of the home are hard to come by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65780\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 249px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-65780\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"249\" height=\"311\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780.jpg 640w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/0780-160x200.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 249px) 100vw, 249px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ivy Mitchell has spent two decades helping students understand how government works.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We are the \u003ca href=\"https://cogenerate.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Beyond-Passing-The-Torch.pdf\">most age segregated society,” said Mitchell.\u003c/a> “There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While some schools like \u003ca href=\"https://www.jenksps.org/o/west-elementary/page/grace-skilled-nursing-and-therapy-center\">Jenks West Elementary in Oklahoma\u003c/a> have built daily intergenerational interaction into their infrastructure, Mitchell shows that powerful learning experiences can happen within a single classroom. Her approach to intergenerational learning is supported by four takeaways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 24px; color: #2b2b2b;\">1. Have Conversations With Students Before An Event\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\nBefore the panel, Mitchell guided students through a structured \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54378/how-to-create-deeper-student-learning-experiences-through-questions\">question-generating process\u003c/a>. She gave them broad topics to brainstorm around and encouraged them to think about what they were genuinely curious to ask someone from an older generation. After reviewing their suggestions, she selected the questions that would work best for the event and assigned student volunteers to ask them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To help the older adult panelists feel comfortable, Mitchell also hosted a brunch before the event. It gave panelists a chance to meet each other and ease into the school environment before stepping in front of a room full of eighth graders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of preparation makes a big difference, said Ruby Belle Booth, a researcher from the \u003ca href=\"https://circle.tufts.edu/\">Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement\u003c/a> at Tufts University. “Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults,” she said. When students know what to expect, they’re more confident stepping into unfamiliar conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That scaffolding helped students ask thoughtful, big-picture questions like: “What were the major civic issues of your life?” and “What was it like to be in a country at war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>2. Build Connections Into Work You’re Already Doing\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mitchell didn’t start from scratch. In the past, she had assigned students to interview older adults. But she noticed those conversations often stayed surface level. “How’s school? How’s soccer?” Mitchell said, summarizing the questions often asked. “The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She saw an opportunity to go deeper. By bringing those intergenerational conversations into her civics class, Mitchell hoped students would hear first-hand how older adults experienced civic life and begin to see themselves as future voters and engaged citizens. “\u003ca href=\"https://www.democraticknowledgeproject.org/\">[A majority] of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best system\u003c/a>,” she said. “But a third of young people are like, ‘Yeah, we don’t really have to vote.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Integrating this work into existing curriculum can be practical and powerful. “Thinking about how you can start with what you have is a really great way to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel,” said Booth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That could mean taking a guest speaker visit and building in time for students to ask questions or even inviting the speaker to ask questions of the students. The key, said Booth, is shifting from one-way learning to a more reciprocal exchange. “Start to think about little places where you can implement this, or where these intergenerational connections might already be happening, and try to enhance the benefits and learning outcomes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_65769\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 960px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-65769 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"960\" height=\"540\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2025/09/Ivy-Mitchel-2-768x432.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Panelists from Ivy Mitchell’s intergenerational event shared first-hand stories about the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement and women’s rights.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>3. Don’t Get Into Divisive Issues Off The Bat\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For the first event, Mitchell and her students intentionally stayed away from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63250/politicians-love-to-talk-about-race-and-lgbtq-issues-in-school-teachers-and-teens-not-so-much\">controversial topics\u003c/a>. That decision helped create a space where both panelists and students could feel more at ease. Booth agreed that it’s important to start slow. “You don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues,” she said.\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\"> A structured conversation\u003c/a> can help build comfort and trust, which lays the groundwork for deeper, more challenging discussions down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also important to prepare older adults for how certain topics may be deeply personal to students. “A big one that we see divides with between generations is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/61031/teen-girls-and-lgbtq-youth-plagued-by-violence-and-trauma-survey-says\">LGBTQ identities\u003c/a>,” said Booth. “Being a young person with one of those identities in the classroom and then talking to older adults who may not have this similar understanding of the expansiveness of gender identity or sexuality can be challenging.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even without diving into the most divisive topics, Mitchell felt the panel sparked rich and meaningful conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>4. Leave Time For Reflection Afterwards\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leaving \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60009/keep-those-diaries-strategies-for-centering-student-voices-and-improving-reflection-habits\">space for students to reflect\u003c/a> after an intergenerational event is crucial, said Booth. “Talking about how it went — not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation — is vital,” she said. “It helps cement and deepen the learnings and takeaways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mitchell could tell the event resonated with her students in real time. “In our auditorium, the chairs are squeaky,” she said. “Whenever we have an event they’re not interested in, the squeaking starts and you know they’re not focused. And we didn’t have that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afterward, Mitchell invited students to write thank-you notes to the senior panelists and reflect on the experience. The feedback was overwhelmingly positive with one common theme. “All my students said consistently, ‘We wish we had more time,’” Mitchell said. “‘And we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.’” That feedback is shaping how Mitchell plans her next event. She wants to loosen the structure and give students more space to guide the dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Mitchell, the impact is clear. “The intergenerational voice brings so much more value and deepens the meaning of what you’re trying to do,” she said. “It makes civics come alive when you bring in people who have lived a civic life to talk about the things they’ve done and the ways they’ve connected to their community. And that can inspire kids to also connect to their community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2332768897\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s 10am at Grace Skilled Nursing Facility in Oklahoma and a cluster of 4- and 5-year-olds bounce with excitement, their sneakers squeaking on the linoleum floor of the rec room. Around them, seniors in wheelchairs and armchairs follow along as a teacher counts off stretches. They shake out limb by limb and every once in a while a kid adds a silly flair to one of the movements and everyone cracks a little smile as they try and keep up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"678\">\u003cem data-start=\"633\" data-end=\"676\">[Audio of teacher counting with students]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"786\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"696\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kids and seniors are moving together in rhythm. This is just another Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"820\">\u003cem data-start=\"788\" data-end=\"818\">[Audio of grands exercising]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"1094\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"838\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These preschoolers and kindergartners go to school here, inside of the senior living facility. The children are here every day—learning their ABCs, doing art projects, and eating snacks alongside the senior residents of Grace – who they call the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1390\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1096\" data-end=\"1113\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> When it originally started, it was the nursing home. And beside the nursing home was an early childhood center, which was like a daycare that was tied to our district. And so the residents and the students there at our early childhood center started making some connections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1392\" data-end=\"1408\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Amanda Moore, the principal of Jenks West Elementary, the school inside of Grace. In the early days, the childhood center noticed the bonds that were forming between the youngest and oldest members of the community. The owners of Grace saw how much it meant to the residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They decided, okay, what can we do to make this a full-time program?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1930\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1803\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> They did a renovation and they built on space so that we could have our students there housed in the nursing home every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"2075\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1953\" data-end=\"1969\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is MindShift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Today we’ll explore how intergenerational learning works and why it might be exactly what schools need more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2316\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Book Buddies is one of the regular activities students at Jenks West Elementary do with the grands. Every other week, kids walk in an orderly line through the facility to meet their reading partners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2520\" data-end=\"2536\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Katy Wilson, a Kindergarten teacher at the school, says just being around older adults changes how students move and act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2742\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2662\" data-end=\"2678\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They start to learn body control more than a typical student.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2933\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2760\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> We know we can’t run out there with the grands. We know it’s not safe. We could trip somebody. They could get hurt. We learn that balance more because it’s higher stakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2987\">\u003cem data-start=\"2935\" data-end=\"2985\">[Mariah giving students their grands assignment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3098\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2989\" data-end=\"3005\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In the common room, kids settle in at tables. A teacher pairs students up with the grands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3208\" data-end=\"3224\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Sometimes the kids read. Sometimes the grands do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3294\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Either way, it’s one-on-one time with a trusted adult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3528\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3377\" data-end=\"3393\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> And that’s something that I couldn’t accomplish in a typical classroom without all those tutors essentially built in to the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3530\" data-end=\"3546\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And it’s working. Jenks West has tracked student progress. Kids who go through the program tend to score higher on reading assessments than their peers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3952\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3703\" data-end=\"3719\">Katy Wilson:\u003c/strong> They get to read books that maybe we don’t cover on the academic side that are more fun books, which is great because they get to read about what they’re interested in that maybe we wouldn’t have time for in the typical classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"4020\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3954\" data-end=\"3970\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grandma Margaret enjoys her time with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4191\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4043\">Grandma Margaret:\u003c/strong> I get to work with the children, and you’ll go down to read a book. Sometimes they’ll read it to you because they’ve got it memorized. Life would be kind of boring without them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4409\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4262\" data-end=\"4278\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> There’s also research that kids in these types of programs are more likely to have better attendance and stronger social skills. One of the long-term benefits is that students become more comfortable being around people who are different from them. Like a grand in a wheelchair, or one who doesn’t communicate easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4624\" data-end=\"4640\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amanda told me a story about a student who left Jenks West and later attended a different school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"5230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4742\" data-end=\"4759\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> There were some students in her class that were in wheelchairs. She said her daughter naturally befriended these students and the teacher had actually recognized that and told the mom that. And she said, I truly believe it was the interactions that she had with the residents at Grace that helped her to have that understanding and empathy and not feel like there was anything that she needed to be worried about or afraid of, that it was just a part of her every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5418\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5248\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program benefits the grands too. There’s evidence that older adults experience improved mental health and less social isolation when they spend time with children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5628\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5483\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even the grands who are bedbound benefit. Just having kids in the building—hearing their laughter and songs in the hallway—makes a difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5630\" data-end=\"5646\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So why don’t more places have these programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5696\" data-end=\"5713\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> You really have to have everybody on board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5800\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5777\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s Amanda again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5908\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5802\" data-end=\"5819\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because both sides saw the benefits, we were able to create that partnership together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5910\" data-end=\"5926\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s likely not something that a school could do on its own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5991\" data-end=\"6008\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> Because it is expensive. They maintain that facility for us. If anything goes wrong in the rooms, they’re the ones that are taking care of all of that. They built a playground there for us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6335\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6202\" data-end=\"6218\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Grace even employs a full-time liaison, who is in charge of communication between the nursing home and the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6503\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6354\">Amanda Moore:\u003c/strong> She is always there and she helps organize our activities. We meet monthly to plan out the activities residents are going to do with the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6814\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6526\" data-end=\"6542\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Younger people interacting with older people has tons of advantages. But what if your school doesn’t have the resources to build a senior center? After the break, we look at how a middle school is making intergenerational learning work in a different way. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"7206\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6856\" data-end=\"6872\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before the break we learned about how intergenerational learning can boost literacy and empathy in younger children, not to mention a bunch of benefits for older adults. In a middle school classroom, those same ideas are being used in a new way—to help strengthen something that many people worry is on shaky ground: our democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7229\" data-end=\"7246\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> My name is Ivy Mitchell. I teach eighth grade civics in Massachusetts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7642\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7321\" data-end=\"7337\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Ivy’s civics class, students learn how to be active members of the community. They also learn that they’ll need to work with people of all ages. After more than 20 years of teaching, Ivy noticed that older and younger generations don’t often get a chance to talk to each other—unless they’re family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7949\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7644\" data-end=\"7661\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> We are the most age-segregated society. This is the time when our age segregation has been the most extreme. There’s a lot of research out there on how seniors are dealing with their lack of connection to the community, because a lot of those community resources have eroded over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"8047\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7974\" data-end=\"7990\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When kids do talk to adults, it’s often surface level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8049\" data-end=\"8066\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> How’s school? How’s soccer? The moment for reflecting on your life and sharing that is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8567\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8170\" data-end=\"8186\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That’s a missed opportunity for all kinds of reasons. But as a civics teacher Ivy is especially concerned about one thing: cultivating students who are interested in voting when they get older. She believes that having deeper conversations with older adults about their experiences can help students better understand the past—and maybe feel more invested in shaping the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8569\" data-end=\"8586\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Ninety percent of baby boomers believe that democracy is the best way, the only best way. Whereas like a third of young people are like, yeah, you know, we don’t have to vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8766\" data-end=\"8782\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ivy wants to close that gap by connecting generations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"9109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8862\" data-end=\"8879\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> Democracy is a very valuable thing. And the only place my students are hearing it is in my classroom. And if I could bring more voices in to say no, democracy has its flaws, but it’s still the best system we’ve ever discovered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9111\" data-end=\"9127\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea that civic learning can come from cross-generational relationships is backed by research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9421\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9230\" data-end=\"9250\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I do a lot of thinking about youth voice and institutions, youth civic development, and how young people can be more involved in our democracy and in their communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9446\" data-end=\"9462\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby Belle Booth wrote a report about youth civic engagement. In it she says together young people and older adults can tackle big challenges facing our democracy—like polarization, culture wars, extremism, and misinformation. But sometimes, misunderstandings between generations get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"10137\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9764\" data-end=\"9784\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Young people, I think, tend to look at older generations as having sort of antiquated views on everything. And that’s largely in part because younger generations have different views on issues. They have different experiences. They have different understandings of modern technology. And as a result, they sort of judge older generations accordingly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10249\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10139\" data-end=\"10155\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Young people’s feelings towards older generations can be summed up in two dismissive words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10375\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10288\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> “OK, Boomer,” which is often said in response to an older person being out of touch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10506\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10377\" data-end=\"10397\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of humor and sass and attitude that young people bring to that relationship and that divide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10698\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10508\" data-end=\"10528\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> It speaks to the challenges that young people face in feeling like they have a voice and they feel like they’re often dismissed by older people—because often they are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10780\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10700\" data-end=\"10716\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And older people have thoughts about younger generations too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10890\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10782\" data-end=\"10802\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Sometimes older generations are like, okay, it’s all good. Gen Z is going to save us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"11053\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10892\" data-end=\"10912\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> That puts a lot of pressure on the very small group of Gen Z who is really activist and engaged and trying to make a lot of social change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11255\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11055\" data-end=\"11071\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the big challenges that educators face in creating intergenerational learning opportunities is the power imbalance between adults and students. And schools only amplify that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11611\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11257\" data-end=\"11277\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> When you move that already existing age dynamic into a school setting where all the adults in the room are holding additional power—teachers giving out grades, principals calling students to their office and having disciplinary powers—it makes it so that those already entrenched age dynamics are even more challenging to overcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11839\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11636\" data-end=\"11652\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way to offset this power imbalance could be bringing people from outside of the school into the classroom, which is exactly what Ivy Mitchell, our teacher in Boston, decided to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11896\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11841\" data-end=\"11866\">Ivy Mitchell :\u003c/strong> Thank you for coming today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"12021\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11898\" data-end=\"11914\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Her students came up with a list of questions, and Ivy assembled a panel of older adults to answer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12377\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12023\" data-end=\"12048\">Ivy Mitchell (event):\u003c/strong> The idea behind this event is I saw a problem and I’m trying to solve it. And the idea is to bring the generations together to help answer the question, why do we have civics? I know a lot of you wonder about that. And also to have them share their life experience and start building community connections, which are so vital.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12379\" data-end=\"12395\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One by one, students took the mic and asked questions to Berta, Steve, Tony, Eileen, and Jane. Questions like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12512\" data-end=\"12524\">Student:\u003c/strong> Do any of you think it’s hard to pay taxes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12572\" data-end=\"12584\">Student:\u003c/strong> What is it like to be in a country at war, either at home or abroad?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12657\" data-end=\"12669\">Student:\u003c/strong> What were the major civic issues of your life, and what experiences shaped your views on these issues?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12844\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12776\" data-end=\"12792\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And one by one they gave answers to the students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"13001\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"12846\" data-end=\"12865\">Steve Humphrey:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think for me, the Vietnam War, for example, was a huge issue in my lifetime, and, you know, still is. I mean, it shaped us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13003\" data-end=\"13018\">Tony Surge:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we had, in our generation, we had a lot going on at once. We also had a big civil rights movement, Martin Luther King, that you probably will study, all very historical, if you go back and look at that. So during our generation, we saw a lot of major changes inside the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13313\" data-end=\"13329\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> The one that I kind of remember, I was young during the Vietnam War, but women’s rights. So back in ‘74 is when women could actually get a credit card without—if they were married—without their husband’s signature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13648\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13548\" data-end=\"13564\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then they flipped the panel around so elders could ask questions to students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13728\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13650\" data-end=\"13666\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> What are the concerns that those of you in school have now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13897\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13730\" data-end=\"13746\">Eileen Hill:\u003c/strong> I mean, especially with computers and AI—does the AI scare any of you? Or do you feel that this is something you can really adapt to and understand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"14200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"13899\" data-end=\"13911\">Student:\u003c/strong> AI is starting to do new things. It can start to take over people’s jobs, which is concerning. There’s AI music now and my dad’s a musician, and that’s concerning because it’s not good right now, but it’s starting to get better. And it could end up taking over people’s jobs eventually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14416\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14202\" data-end=\"14214\">Student:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how you’re using it. Like, it can definitely be used for good and helpful things, but if you’re using it to fake images of people or things that they said, it’s not good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14607\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14439\" data-end=\"14455\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When Ivy debriefed with students after the event, they had overwhelmingly positive things to say. But there was one piece of feedback that stood out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14764\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14609\" data-end=\"14626\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> All my students said consistently, we wish we had more time and we wish we’d been able to have a more authentic conversation with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14766\" data-end=\"14783\">Ivy Mitchell:\u003c/strong> They wanted to be able to talk, to really get into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14950\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"14842\" data-end=\"14858\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Next time, she’s planning to loosen the reins and make space for more authentic dialogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"14952\" data-end=\"15115\">Some of Ruby Belle Booth’s research inspired Ivy’s project. She noted some things that make intergenerational activities a success. Ivy did a lot of these things!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15117\" data-end=\"15133\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One: Ivy had conversations with her students where they came up with questions and talked about the event with students and older folks. This can make everyone feel a lot more comfortable and less nervous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15343\" data-end=\"15363\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Having really clear goals and expectations is one of the easiest ways to facilitate this process for young people or for older adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15681\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15502\" data-end=\"15518\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Two: They didn’t get into tough and divisive questions during this first event. Maybe you don’t want to jump headfirst into some of these more sensitive issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15683\" data-end=\"15699\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three: Ivy built these connections into the work she was already doing. Ivy had assigned students to interview older adults before, but she wanted to take it further. So she made those conversations part of her class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"16124\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"15921\" data-end=\"15941\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Thinking about how you can start with what you have I think is a really great way to start to implement this kind of intergenerational learning without fully reinventing the wheel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16202\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16126\" data-end=\"16142\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Four: Ivy had time for reflection and feedback afterward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16472\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16204\" data-end=\"16224\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> Talking about how it went—not just about the things you talked about, but the process of having this intergenerational conversation for both parties—is vital to really cement, deepen, and further the learnings and takeaways from the opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16641\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16474\" data-end=\"16490\">Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Ruby doesn’t say that intergenerational connections are the only solution for the problems our democracy faces. In fact, on its own it’s not enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"17207\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"16664\" data-end=\"16684\">Ruby Belle Booth:\u003c/strong> I think that when we’re thinking about the long-term health of democracy, it needs to be grounded in communities and connection and reciprocity. A piece of that, when we’re thinking about including more young people in democracy—having more young people turn out to vote, having more young people who see a pathway to create change in their communities—we have to be thinking about what an inclusive democracy looks like, what a democracy that welcomes young voices looks like. Our democracy has to be intergenerational.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Friendship Break Ups Can Be Devastating for Tweens. Here’s How Adults Can Help",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis, a researcher at Education Northwest, found out her 10-year-old son had made a sad playlist to cope with his best friend moving away. He’d listen to it at night and cry himself to sleep. “It just kind of crushed me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davis had known the transition would be tough, but she hadn’t realized just how deep the loss would feel. Like many adults, she underestimated how intense \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65569/the-secret-to-staying-best-friends-forever-dont-deep-score\">childhood friendships\u003c/a> – and their endings – can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friendship “breakups” are a common part of growing up. One \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30558749/\">study of sixth graders\u003c/a> in the Los Angeles Unified School District found that two-thirds of students changed friend groups between September and June. These shifts often happen during big transitions, like starting middle or high school or developing new interests. But just because they’re common doesn’t mean they’re easy, especially during adolescence, which neuroscientists define as the period from age 10 to 25.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lydiadenworth.com/\">Science journalist Lydia Denworth\u003c/a> has spent years researching how friendships develop across the lifespan. She says the adolescent brain is especially tuned into social dynamics. “Friendship is everything,” she said. “When it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.” Different situations call for different kinds of support. Denworth offers insights on how adults can show up thoughtfully when friendships shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Talk About Friendship Early\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Denworth encourages adults to be proactive about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63184/when-parents-know-these-4-phases-of-friendship-they-can-help-their-child-make-friends-more-easily\">supporting kids’ friendships\u003c/a>. That means talking about what healthy friendship looks like even when everything seems fine. “We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities,” she said. “We should be talking about [friendship] at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63456/6-ways-educators-can-bolster-boys-social-skills\">Friendship is a skill set\u003c/a>, according to Denworth, and kids don’t automatically arrive with all the tools they need. A healthy friendship, she added, is positive, long-lasting and cooperative with mutual kindness, emotional support and reciprocity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School in Berkeley, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59757/with-classroom-behavior-issues-on-the-rise-restorative-justice-offers-solutions\">restorative justice counselor\u003c/a> Chau Tran tells students early in the school year that she’s available to help with friendship issues. She’s learned that small miscommunications can quickly snowball. Support from adults can help students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\">express themselves clearly\u003c/a> and set better boundaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At this age, they’re still kind of learning how to navigate a conflict. They’re still figuring out how to speak their truth while also learning how to sit and actively listen,” Tran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When a Kid Is Going Through a Breakup\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If a child is being broken up with, it’s natural for adults to want to fix it. But Denworth says the best thing adults can do is slow down and validate the hurt. She noted that there is a tendency to minimize the pain, but developmentally their brains are responding to this social change differently than adults. “knowing that should help us\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64516/to-raise-empathetic-children-parents-must-practice-empathy-themselves\"> have more empathy\u003c/a>,” said Denworth. “I’d say, ‘Yeah, this really hurts.’ And then just let it. Let it hurt, but be there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s necessary for kids to go through these experiences as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/57010/how-understanding-middle-school-friendships-can-help-students\">part of the growing up process\u003c/a>. Where adults can be helpful is by providing some context and talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time, according to Denworth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saachi, a 14-year-old in Menlo Park, experienced a painful friendship fallout during her freshman year. “I just noticed they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me,” she said. Saachi was sad and confused, but she appreciated how her mom helped by staying calm and sharing similar stories from her own life. She encouraged Saachi to connect with other students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups,” Saachi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When Your Kid Is the One Ending Things\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Friendship breakups can also be hard for the person doing the breaking up. Isabel, 17, ended a friendship in high school. “When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more concerning signs,” Isabel said, adding that their friend would do things without caring about consequences. “That’s where I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Isabel didn’t talk to an adult about it because they had bad experiences with adults brushing it off in the past. They sent a text to end the friendship, then wrestled with guilt and doubt for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Denworth said that’s where parents can help—not by deciding whether a friendship should end, but by helping kids think through how they’re ending it. She recommends that parents check in with kids about whether they are being kind when they break things off with a friend. “That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty,” Denworth said. “And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>If you have more time, you can plan\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis’s son is facing another friend’s move this year, but this time, she’s planning ahead. Knowing her son and how deep his reactions were when his last friend moved away is making her think about ways that she can support him during what she knows will be a hard transition. “We’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time for them to be together,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is helping her son and his friend make time to create things so that they both have tangible memories of the friendship. Additionally they are planning for what her son might send his friend when the friend moves away. “So that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of the joy in their friendship,” added Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is also ensuring lines of communication like texting or online messaging are established so that her son and his friend can communicate after the move, even if their communication eventually peters out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many parents, Davis is figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing. So far, there is no perfect formula. “We need to be prepared to support him and who he is and the reactions that he’s going to have,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3169186124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Think back to when you were a kid—did you ever have a good friend move away? One day you’re hanging out at recess, planning your next sleepover, and then suddenly… they’re just gone. No more playdates, No more inside jokes, and no say in the matter. How unfair is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Leanne Davis, a parent in Washington State, watched her 10 year old son go through exactly that not too long ago WHEN His good friend moved to Spain. To Leanne’s surprise, her son grieved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> He made himself a sad playlist on Spotify. He listens to his playlist when he’s feeling like just really in his emotions about his friend and like his friend leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She caught him listening to it at night, crying himself to sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> It just kind of crushed me and then I realized like how important this these friendships were and it actually wasn’t something that we were talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Today on MindShift, we’re diving into the ups and downs of friendship breakups—and how the adults in kids’ lives can help them navigate it. We’ll hear from Leanne, researchers, and teens about how to strike the right balance. All that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a kid loses a friend, it can feel heartbreaking—for them and for the parent trying to support them. But these shifts in friendship are not only common they are actually expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Science journalist Lydia Denworth has spent years researching how friendships develop and function throughout all stages of life. She says that friendship during adolescence — a period neuroscientists define as spanning ages 10 to 25 — is especially unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> In adolescence in particular, the brain is. Undergoing a lot of change. Most of which makes you far more attentive to social cues, to friendship, to what everybody else is doing, what they might think of you. And it’s just it’s all about friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That hyper-focus on friends is biological. And it’s a growing up process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We want adolescents to begin to explore life outside their immediate family. We want them to learn to be independent and to take some risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And the focus on friends and the importance of their social lives is part of that. It’s finding their way in the larger social world and making sense of their own identity within that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s common for students to go through big friendship breakups when they are going through a school transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>One of the studies that I think is most surprising was done with thousands of middle schoolers in the Los Angeles School Unified School District, and they found that two thirds of sixth graders changed friends from September to June.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Kids make friends where they spend their time—on the soccer field, in the band room, at robotics club. And as interests change, friendships can too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>When kids are going through it, or if you went through that in sixth grade or seventh grade, you thought it was only you, right? That was that was losing your friends or feeling at sea a little bit or getting interested in—maybe you’re the you were the kid or your kid is the one who is seeking out the new relationships. But the the really important message is just how normal that is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, a 14 year old from Menlo Park, had a close knit group of friends when she started high school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We had come from middle school we all knew each other so we were just like, okay, like we’re gonna stick together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few months into the school year, something shifted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I just noticed like they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> They would be talking to people and then i would try to talk to them, and be like oh hey like what would we like just like telling them about stuff that happened um throughout the school day and then they would just like look at me like oh yeah whatever like uh-huh uh-uh and like quickly like turn away and like dismiss me constantly and i was just like they didn’t really acknowledge my presence anymore. It was as if like I just wasn’t really there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: It was especially painful because their friendship had once felt effortless—full of energy and care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We used to like talk so much like if we had if like one of us had something to say like we would sit there we’d listen we’d have like so much to say about the other person’s like story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When that dynamic disappeared, it left Saachi feeling something she didn’t expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I was kind of sad, but I was more so confused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> I would have liked to know what they were thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>If they had just talked to me you know maybe we would have still been friends i don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Saachi’s case, she was left to piece together what went wrong. In other cases, ending the friendship is a conscious choice. Isabel Daniels, a 17 year old, shared their story\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>I met this friend like pretty much in like middle school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>This friendship, it’s, like, Oh, someone finally understands me and like, we finally see each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Isabel was drawn to their friend’s free spirit—the way they didn’t seem weighed down by other people’s opinions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more like…concerning signs, like that lack of care for how society thinks it’s like a double edged sword and so it’s nice in a way that like, oh, you’re free from these and expectations, but also you don’t. Like you don’t care about consequences, which can lead to a lot of like dangerous behavior. And that’s where I was like, I’m not like comfortable with that. Just because I also don’t like being labeled or having a lot of expectations put on me, it doesn’t mean I’m want to go out of my way and be like a menace in like a not fun and silly way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What began as carefree fun started to feel unsafe. Isabel knew they needed to end the friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>It’s like fun while it lasts, but then you realize that fun comes with a cost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the time came to break things off, Isabel didn’t feel like they could do it in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I unfortunately broke up with this friend over text, blocked their number and then didn’t look back after that which only added to the guilt, because I didn’t give this friend a chance to explain, to give their piece. Like we didn’t have a conversation. I just like sent it, blocked, and then tried to move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Isabel was certain the friendship needed to end, and they haven’t talked to the friend since, but they were left with lingering questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> What if, like, what would this person say? Could have things been different if we both just talked?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though Isabel was grappling with some big questions, they did not reach out for support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was very against asking help, especially from adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>To Isabel, adults didn’t feel like a helpful option. They worried they wouldn’t be understood, or that the advice would miss the nuance of what they were going through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>Things tend to be watered down when you are talking to someone older than you because they view you as like oh you’re just not like fully mentally developed you just haven’t um seen life enough and that this is just part of that, but these are significant moments in our life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had memories of adults falling short when it came to helping with friendships. For example, Isabel has this story from when they were younger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was telling an adult that this kid was being a bit too rough with me when we were playing. This kid was a boy so you know what the adults told me? Oh that just means he likes you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lydia Denworth, the science journalist we heard from earlier, has some helpful insights about where adults often go wrong—and what they can do instead. She recommends adults have conversations with kids about friendship before things go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We should be talking about that at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test or, you know, whether you got the main lead role in the musical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities and what they’re doing. And we put pressure on those things and we want to know about their friends too, but what we don’t realize is that\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We can help kids understand that friendship is a set of social skills and that it is those are skills that we benefit from practice and that kids don’t necessarily come into the world having all of them ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Defining what a good and healthy friendship looks like early on can not only help them have stronger friendships, but also better romantic and family relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> A really good quality friendship has three things. It’s long lasting, it’s positive and it’s cooperative. So that means that a good friend is a steady, stable presence in your life. They make you feel good. So they’re kind. They say nice things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And then the co operative piece is the reciprocity, the the back and forth, the helpfulness, the sort of showing up and listening and and not having a relationship that’s lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And just because someone’s been your friend for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re still a good friend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The longer term relationships we often just sort of stick with because we have that shared history piece. But if they’re not positive any more, if they’re not making you feel better, then they might not be a really healthy relationship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a child is experiencing a friendship breakup, Lydia suggests adults resist the urge to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>You can’t necessarily just make it all better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We need to understand that kids need to go through these experiences and this process. But where adults can be helpful is by providing some context, by talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That also means validating the pain kids are feeling. It’ll be hard, but don’t jump in and convince kids that it isn’t a big deal. Downplaying the situation is well intentioned but it can backfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>I spoke earlier about how much the adolescent brain is changing. It’s almost at the same level that a toddler’s brain is changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The result is that not only are they really primed for social things, but they’re also their emotions are literally heightened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Friendship is everything. And so when it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words the feelings that kids are bringing to their social relationships are real for them and they aren’t the same for us adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Literally our brains are responding differently and knowing that should help us have more empathy\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> I’d say, Yeah, this really hurts. You know, I’m. And then just just let it, let it hurt like and, but be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And if a child wants to keep talking you can follow their lead by sharing your own experiences with friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Talk about maybe a time that you had a friendship that that fell apart or where somebody got hurt and what you did to mend it if you did or or why you didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, the freshman I talked to earlier, told me that she appreciated the way her mom did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> My mom she’s always been a very like calm individual like it takes a lot to tip her over the edge like she’s very like she wasn’t freaking out because she’s had a lot of like life experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She’s like i had friends like that like i dealt with that and it’s just like she was calm and that made me calm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When her mom said she’d eventually make new friends who treated her better, Saachi wasn’t so sure. But she tried to talk to new people in her classes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She was right, because I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>If your child is the one ending a friendship, it’s worth checking in—not to control their choice, but to help them think through how they’re doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Are they being kind? Are they being thoughtful? That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But but there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s return to Leanne Davis, the mom we heard from earlier. When she saw how hard her son took the loss, she realized she’d underestimated the seriousness of childhood friendships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> I moved a lot as an adult. My husband moved a a lot and I think we were tending, it took us a couple steps to be like, well, wait a minute, this is this kid and this kid is very different than other kid and. very different than maybe how we would do this. I need to be prepared to support him and who he is and like the reactions that he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This year another one of her son’s friends is moving away. And …this kid can’t catch a break…his friend is moving to Australia. But this time, Leanne is thinking about it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Now, knowing that this is happening and this is gonna be really rough we’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time, for them to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s helping him make memories—something tangible to remember the friendship by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Finding ways to like document some of their memories and things they’re doing together. Like he and I are planning for what would he like to send his friend when his friend leaves, or something that he’d like to make that, you know, that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of like the joy in their friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And she’s also planning for what happens after the move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis: \u003c/strong>He does text his friends, like on, he can like message him from the computer. So making sure that they’re able to communicate that way. and that it’s established before they leave, knowing that it may eventually fade out, but that that’s a way for them to know that they can get in touch with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Like so many parents, Leanne’s figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And maybe that’s the real work of showing up for kids—not having the perfect response, but staying close enough to notice what they need, and giving them space to figure the rest out themselves. Because in the end, friendship breakups are just part of growing up. But having someone who sees you through it can make all the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis, a researcher at Education Northwest, found out her 10-year-old son had made a sad playlist to cope with his best friend moving away. He’d listen to it at night and cry himself to sleep. “It just kind of crushed me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davis had known the transition would be tough, but she hadn’t realized just how deep the loss would feel. Like many adults, she underestimated how intense \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65569/the-secret-to-staying-best-friends-forever-dont-deep-score\">childhood friendships\u003c/a> – and their endings – can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friendship “breakups” are a common part of growing up. One \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30558749/\">study of sixth graders\u003c/a> in the Los Angeles Unified School District found that two-thirds of students changed friend groups between September and June. These shifts often happen during big transitions, like starting middle or high school or developing new interests. But just because they’re common doesn’t mean they’re easy, especially during adolescence, which neuroscientists define as the period from age 10 to 25.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lydiadenworth.com/\">Science journalist Lydia Denworth\u003c/a> has spent years researching how friendships develop across the lifespan. She says the adolescent brain is especially tuned into social dynamics. “Friendship is everything,” she said. “When it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.” Different situations call for different kinds of support. Denworth offers insights on how adults can show up thoughtfully when friendships shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Talk About Friendship Early\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Denworth encourages adults to be proactive about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63184/when-parents-know-these-4-phases-of-friendship-they-can-help-their-child-make-friends-more-easily\">supporting kids’ friendships\u003c/a>. That means talking about what healthy friendship looks like even when everything seems fine. “We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities,” she said. “We should be talking about [friendship] at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63456/6-ways-educators-can-bolster-boys-social-skills\">Friendship is a skill set\u003c/a>, according to Denworth, and kids don’t automatically arrive with all the tools they need. A healthy friendship, she added, is positive, long-lasting and cooperative with mutual kindness, emotional support and reciprocity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School in Berkeley, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59757/with-classroom-behavior-issues-on-the-rise-restorative-justice-offers-solutions\">restorative justice counselor\u003c/a> Chau Tran tells students early in the school year that she’s available to help with friendship issues. She’s learned that small miscommunications can quickly snowball. Support from adults can help students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\">express themselves clearly\u003c/a> and set better boundaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At this age, they’re still kind of learning how to navigate a conflict. They’re still figuring out how to speak their truth while also learning how to sit and actively listen,” Tran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When a Kid Is Going Through a Breakup\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If a child is being broken up with, it’s natural for adults to want to fix it. But Denworth says the best thing adults can do is slow down and validate the hurt. She noted that there is a tendency to minimize the pain, but developmentally their brains are responding to this social change differently than adults. “knowing that should help us\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64516/to-raise-empathetic-children-parents-must-practice-empathy-themselves\"> have more empathy\u003c/a>,” said Denworth. “I’d say, ‘Yeah, this really hurts.’ And then just let it. Let it hurt, but be there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s necessary for kids to go through these experiences as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/57010/how-understanding-middle-school-friendships-can-help-students\">part of the growing up process\u003c/a>. Where adults can be helpful is by providing some context and talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time, according to Denworth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saachi, a 14-year-old in Menlo Park, experienced a painful friendship fallout during her freshman year. “I just noticed they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me,” she said. Saachi was sad and confused, but she appreciated how her mom helped by staying calm and sharing similar stories from her own life. She encouraged Saachi to connect with other students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups,” Saachi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When Your Kid Is the One Ending Things\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Friendship breakups can also be hard for the person doing the breaking up. Isabel, 17, ended a friendship in high school. “When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more concerning signs,” Isabel said, adding that their friend would do things without caring about consequences. “That’s where I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Isabel didn’t talk to an adult about it because they had bad experiences with adults brushing it off in the past. They sent a text to end the friendship, then wrestled with guilt and doubt for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Denworth said that’s where parents can help—not by deciding whether a friendship should end, but by helping kids think through how they’re ending it. She recommends that parents check in with kids about whether they are being kind when they break things off with a friend. “That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty,” Denworth said. “And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>If you have more time, you can plan\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis’s son is facing another friend’s move this year, but this time, she’s planning ahead. Knowing her son and how deep his reactions were when his last friend moved away is making her think about ways that she can support him during what she knows will be a hard transition. “We’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time for them to be together,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is helping her son and his friend make time to create things so that they both have tangible memories of the friendship. Additionally they are planning for what her son might send his friend when the friend moves away. “So that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of the joy in their friendship,” added Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is also ensuring lines of communication like texting or online messaging are established so that her son and his friend can communicate after the move, even if their communication eventually peters out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many parents, Davis is figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing. So far, there is no perfect formula. “We need to be prepared to support him and who he is and the reactions that he’s going to have,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3169186124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Think back to when you were a kid—did you ever have a good friend move away? One day you’re hanging out at recess, planning your next sleepover, and then suddenly… they’re just gone. No more playdates, No more inside jokes, and no say in the matter. How unfair is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Leanne Davis, a parent in Washington State, watched her 10 year old son go through exactly that not too long ago WHEN His good friend moved to Spain. To Leanne’s surprise, her son grieved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> He made himself a sad playlist on Spotify. He listens to his playlist when he’s feeling like just really in his emotions about his friend and like his friend leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She caught him listening to it at night, crying himself to sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> It just kind of crushed me and then I realized like how important this these friendships were and it actually wasn’t something that we were talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Today on MindShift, we’re diving into the ups and downs of friendship breakups—and how the adults in kids’ lives can help them navigate it. We’ll hear from Leanne, researchers, and teens about how to strike the right balance. All that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a kid loses a friend, it can feel heartbreaking—for them and for the parent trying to support them. But these shifts in friendship are not only common they are actually expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Science journalist Lydia Denworth has spent years researching how friendships develop and function throughout all stages of life. She says that friendship during adolescence — a period neuroscientists define as spanning ages 10 to 25 — is especially unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> In adolescence in particular, the brain is. Undergoing a lot of change. Most of which makes you far more attentive to social cues, to friendship, to what everybody else is doing, what they might think of you. And it’s just it’s all about friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That hyper-focus on friends is biological. And it’s a growing up process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We want adolescents to begin to explore life outside their immediate family. We want them to learn to be independent and to take some risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And the focus on friends and the importance of their social lives is part of that. It’s finding their way in the larger social world and making sense of their own identity within that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s common for students to go through big friendship breakups when they are going through a school transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>One of the studies that I think is most surprising was done with thousands of middle schoolers in the Los Angeles School Unified School District, and they found that two thirds of sixth graders changed friends from September to June.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Kids make friends where they spend their time—on the soccer field, in the band room, at robotics club. And as interests change, friendships can too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>When kids are going through it, or if you went through that in sixth grade or seventh grade, you thought it was only you, right? That was that was losing your friends or feeling at sea a little bit or getting interested in—maybe you’re the you were the kid or your kid is the one who is seeking out the new relationships. But the the really important message is just how normal that is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, a 14 year old from Menlo Park, had a close knit group of friends when she started high school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We had come from middle school we all knew each other so we were just like, okay, like we’re gonna stick together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few months into the school year, something shifted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I just noticed like they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> They would be talking to people and then i would try to talk to them, and be like oh hey like what would we like just like telling them about stuff that happened um throughout the school day and then they would just like look at me like oh yeah whatever like uh-huh uh-uh and like quickly like turn away and like dismiss me constantly and i was just like they didn’t really acknowledge my presence anymore. It was as if like I just wasn’t really there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: It was especially painful because their friendship had once felt effortless—full of energy and care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We used to like talk so much like if we had if like one of us had something to say like we would sit there we’d listen we’d have like so much to say about the other person’s like story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When that dynamic disappeared, it left Saachi feeling something she didn’t expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I was kind of sad, but I was more so confused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> I would have liked to know what they were thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>If they had just talked to me you know maybe we would have still been friends i don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Saachi’s case, she was left to piece together what went wrong. In other cases, ending the friendship is a conscious choice. Isabel Daniels, a 17 year old, shared their story\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>I met this friend like pretty much in like middle school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>This friendship, it’s, like, Oh, someone finally understands me and like, we finally see each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Isabel was drawn to their friend’s free spirit—the way they didn’t seem weighed down by other people’s opinions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more like…concerning signs, like that lack of care for how society thinks it’s like a double edged sword and so it’s nice in a way that like, oh, you’re free from these and expectations, but also you don’t. Like you don’t care about consequences, which can lead to a lot of like dangerous behavior. And that’s where I was like, I’m not like comfortable with that. Just because I also don’t like being labeled or having a lot of expectations put on me, it doesn’t mean I’m want to go out of my way and be like a menace in like a not fun and silly way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What began as carefree fun started to feel unsafe. Isabel knew they needed to end the friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>It’s like fun while it lasts, but then you realize that fun comes with a cost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the time came to break things off, Isabel didn’t feel like they could do it in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I unfortunately broke up with this friend over text, blocked their number and then didn’t look back after that which only added to the guilt, because I didn’t give this friend a chance to explain, to give their piece. Like we didn’t have a conversation. I just like sent it, blocked, and then tried to move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Isabel was certain the friendship needed to end, and they haven’t talked to the friend since, but they were left with lingering questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> What if, like, what would this person say? Could have things been different if we both just talked?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though Isabel was grappling with some big questions, they did not reach out for support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was very against asking help, especially from adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>To Isabel, adults didn’t feel like a helpful option. They worried they wouldn’t be understood, or that the advice would miss the nuance of what they were going through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>Things tend to be watered down when you are talking to someone older than you because they view you as like oh you’re just not like fully mentally developed you just haven’t um seen life enough and that this is just part of that, but these are significant moments in our life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had memories of adults falling short when it came to helping with friendships. For example, Isabel has this story from when they were younger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was telling an adult that this kid was being a bit too rough with me when we were playing. This kid was a boy so you know what the adults told me? Oh that just means he likes you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lydia Denworth, the science journalist we heard from earlier, has some helpful insights about where adults often go wrong—and what they can do instead. She recommends adults have conversations with kids about friendship before things go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We should be talking about that at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test or, you know, whether you got the main lead role in the musical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities and what they’re doing. And we put pressure on those things and we want to know about their friends too, but what we don’t realize is that\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We can help kids understand that friendship is a set of social skills and that it is those are skills that we benefit from practice and that kids don’t necessarily come into the world having all of them ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Defining what a good and healthy friendship looks like early on can not only help them have stronger friendships, but also better romantic and family relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> A really good quality friendship has three things. It’s long lasting, it’s positive and it’s cooperative. So that means that a good friend is a steady, stable presence in your life. They make you feel good. So they’re kind. They say nice things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And then the co operative piece is the reciprocity, the the back and forth, the helpfulness, the sort of showing up and listening and and not having a relationship that’s lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And just because someone’s been your friend for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re still a good friend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The longer term relationships we often just sort of stick with because we have that shared history piece. But if they’re not positive any more, if they’re not making you feel better, then they might not be a really healthy relationship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a child is experiencing a friendship breakup, Lydia suggests adults resist the urge to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>You can’t necessarily just make it all better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We need to understand that kids need to go through these experiences and this process. But where adults can be helpful is by providing some context, by talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That also means validating the pain kids are feeling. It’ll be hard, but don’t jump in and convince kids that it isn’t a big deal. Downplaying the situation is well intentioned but it can backfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>I spoke earlier about how much the adolescent brain is changing. It’s almost at the same level that a toddler’s brain is changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The result is that not only are they really primed for social things, but they’re also their emotions are literally heightened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Friendship is everything. And so when it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words the feelings that kids are bringing to their social relationships are real for them and they aren’t the same for us adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Literally our brains are responding differently and knowing that should help us have more empathy\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> I’d say, Yeah, this really hurts. You know, I’m. And then just just let it, let it hurt like and, but be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And if a child wants to keep talking you can follow their lead by sharing your own experiences with friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Talk about maybe a time that you had a friendship that that fell apart or where somebody got hurt and what you did to mend it if you did or or why you didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, the freshman I talked to earlier, told me that she appreciated the way her mom did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> My mom she’s always been a very like calm individual like it takes a lot to tip her over the edge like she’s very like she wasn’t freaking out because she’s had a lot of like life experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She’s like i had friends like that like i dealt with that and it’s just like she was calm and that made me calm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When her mom said she’d eventually make new friends who treated her better, Saachi wasn’t so sure. But she tried to talk to new people in her classes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She was right, because I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>If your child is the one ending a friendship, it’s worth checking in—not to control their choice, but to help them think through how they’re doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Are they being kind? Are they being thoughtful? That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But but there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s return to Leanne Davis, the mom we heard from earlier. When she saw how hard her son took the loss, she realized she’d underestimated the seriousness of childhood friendships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> I moved a lot as an adult. My husband moved a a lot and I think we were tending, it took us a couple steps to be like, well, wait a minute, this is this kid and this kid is very different than other kid and. very different than maybe how we would do this. I need to be prepared to support him and who he is and like the reactions that he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This year another one of her son’s friends is moving away. And …this kid can’t catch a break…his friend is moving to Australia. But this time, Leanne is thinking about it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Now, knowing that this is happening and this is gonna be really rough we’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time, for them to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s helping him make memories—something tangible to remember the friendship by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Finding ways to like document some of their memories and things they’re doing together. Like he and I are planning for what would he like to send his friend when his friend leaves, or something that he’d like to make that, you know, that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of like the joy in their friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And she’s also planning for what happens after the move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis: \u003c/strong>He does text his friends, like on, he can like message him from the computer. So making sure that they’re able to communicate that way. and that it’s established before they leave, knowing that it may eventually fade out, but that that’s a way for them to know that they can get in touch with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Like so many parents, Leanne’s figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And maybe that’s the real work of showing up for kids—not having the perfect response, but staying close enough to notice what they need, and giving them space to figure the rest out themselves. Because in the end, friendship breakups are just part of growing up. But having someone who sees you through it can make all the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://sites.google.com/view/historyfrogedu/home\">Karalee Wong Nakatsuka\u003c/a> has been a history teacher at the same middle school in Arcadia – a community with a population that’s \u003ca href=\"https://censusreporter.org/profiles/16000US0602462-arcadia-ca/\">57% Asian\u003c/a> – since 1990. She had felt well-versed in American history throughout much of her career, but it wasn’t until a pivotal year in the lives of so many that she developed an even deeper understanding of Asian American history: 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The spread of COVID-19 and the anti-China sentiment that ensued spilled over to Asian Americans. There was also the murder of George Floyd, which was enabled by an Asian American police \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/officer-who-stood-george-floyd-died-asian-american-we-need-n1221311\">officer\u003c/a>. Asian elders were being targeted with violence, including one 84-year-old man who was \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/02/12/966940217/anger-and-fear-as-asian-american-seniors-targeted-in-bay-area-attacks\">pushed\u003c/a> to his death. In 2021, six women of Asian descent were killed in the Atlanta spa shooting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4056354895\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lack of understanding of the Asian American experience propelled Nakatsuka to contribute to a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gilderlehrman.org/professional-development/summer-pd/neh-summer-institute/pacific-crossings-asian-american-pacific-islander-histories\">summer program\u003c/a> to help 36 middle and high school teachers teach the richness of AAPI history. The program became a welcome resource, especially for Asian American students who were not learning about AAPI history at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listen to the latest episode of the MindShift podcast to learn about how students are learning about the broader contributions of Asian Americans and their activism and what that means for civic engagement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4056354895\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift Podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, I want to take you to a middle school in a Los Angeles suburb so you can meet Karalee Wong Nakatsuka, an 8th grade history teacher at First Avenue Middle School. I visited back in May, which marked the beginning of a very special month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Morning. Happy AANHPI Heritage Month. No Phones!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Ms. Nakatsuka, greeting students at the door, was especially enthusiastic for Asian American Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander Heritage month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve known her for about a year now, and let me tell you she is very passionate about her work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, we’re talking about citizenship and remember Joanne Furman says citizenship is about belonging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>This lesson is about a Chinese American man named Wong Kim Ark. Before this year, most people hadn’t heard of him. But anyone born in the United States over the past 127 years – has him and the 14th amendment to thank for U.S. citizenship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Wong Kim Ark was born of Chinese immigrants. And he says, I am an American, right? And they’re challenged, they test him whether or not he can be in America. And what do they say? They say no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Wong, with the support of the Chinese community in San Francisco, fought for HIS AND their right to citizenship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>But he challenges it, goes to the Supreme Court, and they say what? Yes, you are an American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>But Asian Americans like Wong Kim Ark, and their activism, are rarely remembered. Students may spend a lot of time on social media, but he doesn’t pop up on anyone’s feed. I asked some of Karalee’s students about times they’ve discussed AAPI history outside of her class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong>I think in seventh grade I might have like heard the term once or twice,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong> I never really like understood it. I think the first time I actually started learning about it was in Ms. Nakatsuka’s class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong>Like, we did Black history, obviously, and white history. And then also Native American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student:\u003c/strong> I think in Virginia when I grew up, I was surrounded by like an all white school and we did learn a lot about, like slavery and Black history but we never learned about anything like this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> These students are surrounded by information because they have phones and have social media. But AAPI history? That’s a tougher subject to learn about. Even in their Asian American families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong>My parents immigrated here and I was born in India. I feel like overall, we just never really have the chance to talk about other races and AAPI history. We just are more secluded, so that’s why it was for me a big deal when we actually started learning about more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Coming up, what inspired one teacher to speak up about AAPI History. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Karalee Nakatsuka has been teaching history since 1990, and brings her own personal history to the subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chinese exclusion is my jam, because when my grandfather came, he was a paper son.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Meaning, he came to this country by asserting that he was a relative of someone already in the United States. Up until the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, specific immigrant groups weren’t targeted by exclusionary laws – anyone who showed up in this country just did so. But laws specifically excluding people of Chinese descent made impossible things like civic participation, justice, police protection, fair wages, home ownership. Adding to that, there were racist killings and calls for mass deportations all fanned by the media, pitting low wage workers against one another –\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>I, myself, because I didn’t understand history as well as I hope I understand it better now, like I’m talking with my students, like seeing the patterns, remembering– I mean, I’ve been teaching Chinese exclusion, I think probably from the beginning, but then connecting those lines and connecting to the present, that these view of the perpetual foreigners, view of yellow peril, these attitudes are still there and it’s really hard to shake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite her family history, Nakatsuka didn’t just learn how to teach AAPI history overnight. She didn’t instinctively know how to do this. It required professional development and a professional network – something she acquired only in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are several programs throughout the country that will train teachers on certain eras of US history – the early colonial period, the American revolution, the civil rights movement. However…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong:\u003c/strong> The reality is there’s very little training in Asian American history generally,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Jane Hong, a professor of history at Occidental College.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong :\u003c/strong> When you get to Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander histories, there’s even less training and even fewer opportunities and resources I think, for teachers, especially teachers outside of Hawaii, kind of the West, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>For context about her own school experience, Professor Hong grew up in a vibrant Asian American community on the East Coast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>I don’t think I learned any Asian American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>I did take AP US History. The AP US history exam does cover the kind of greatest hits version of Asian American history so the Chinese Exclusion Act Japanese American incarceration and that might be it right it’s really those two topics and then sometimes right the Spanish American War and so the US colonization of the Philippines but even those topics don’t go really deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Last year, she hosted a two-week training for about 36 middle and high school teachers on how to teach AAPI history. It was held at Occidental College as a pilot program. So, Why did she develop this program?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers, like students, benefit from having a facilitated experience when learning about any topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> In Hong’s training, teaching strategies are taught alongside history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The teachers read books, visited historic sites and watched sections of documentary films, such as “Free Chol Soo Lee.” The documentary is about a wrongly convicted Korean American man whom police insisted was a Chinatown gang member in the 1970s. The documentary is also about the Asian American activism that helped eventually free him from prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teacher Karalee Nakatsuka helped as a master teacher in Hong’s training. She realized she needed something like this after a pivotal year in the lives of so many: 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>While the murder of George Floyd sparked a racial reckoning, AAPI hate was steeply rising. Asian Americans were blamed for COVID, Asian elders were pushed violently on sidewalks, sometimes to their death. Others onto subway tracks and killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>My kids were, during the pandemic, someone yelled Wuhan at them when they were in the store with my husband, with their dad, and like, I thought we were in a very safe neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>And then, the Atlanta spa shootings happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsclip sound\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>In March 2021, A white gunman killed 8 people, 6 of them women of Asian descent. Investigators said the killings weren’t racially motivated, but that’s not how Asian American women perceived it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>And across the country, all these teachers across, because I had met these really, really cool people important people, history people, civics people, and they reached out to me from across the country saying, are you okay? And I was like, “Oh, yeah, I’m okay. You should reach out to your other AAPI folks.” But then I was… I was like, I’m not okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>After a series of exchanges with professional friends, Karalee took action. She became more visible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> This is not normal Karalee. This is what Karalee normally does. But I felt so compelled to use my voice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>She also became more outspoken about her experience. Like on the Let’s K12 Better Podcast with host Amber Coleman Mortley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amber Coleman Mortley:\u003c/strong> Does anyone else I just want to jump in on the question that I had posed or.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> I’ll speak up. When you say empathy, that’s like one of my favorite words. And that’s huge because after Atlanta, people, it’s just all these wounds that we’ve had that have been festering that we don’t look at. I mean that as Asians, we are like taught, put your head down and just do everything and do it the best, do it better, because we always have to prove ourselves. And so we just live our lives and that’s just how it is. But we’ve been really introspective. And we’ve suffered microaggressions and harms and we just kind of keep on going. But after Atlanta, we’re like, maybe we need to speak up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>And there was a letter written to colleagues – which a lot of Asian American women did at the time – in an attempt for understanding from their community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>…and I said, I just want to let you know what it’s like to be Asian- American during this time. And if I read that letter now, it feels very personal, it feels very raw and sharing just experiences of getting the wrong report card for my kid because they’re giving it to the Asian parent or my You know, different things, people mixing up Asian American people. So all those things came together to just make me feel like, hey, I need to respond. So also in my classroom, I said I need to, I need to teach anti-Asian hate. And these are all things that I don’t remember being formally taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Karalee’s passion for AAPI history soon got an even bigger audience. She was already a Gilda Lehrman California history teacher of the year. But then she spoke out at more conferences and webinars and ran a professional community. She was featured in the New York Times and Time Magazine. She wrote a book called “Bringing History and Civics to Life,” which centers student empathy in lessons about people in American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in her classroom, history from the 1800s feels contemporary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Okay, so in the 1870s, what is the attitude towards the Chinese after the railroad is already built? They’re villains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> They’re villains. What else? They’re taking our jobs. They’re taking over our country. We don’t want them, right? And as a result of this anti-Chinese sentiment from across the country, they decide, okay, we’re going to exclude the Chinese. So 1882, Chinese Exclusion Act. All Chinese are excluded. But was the 14th Amendment still written in 1882? Yeah, it was written in 1868. So what do we do about that birthright citizenship thing? And they challenge it under Wong Kim Ark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> The 1800s is relevant again because of the executive order signed by President Trump in his second term to redefine birthright citizenship. This executive order is making its way through the courts right now AND upends the 127-year old application of birthright citizenship as granting U.S. citizenship to individuals born within the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nakatsuka uses the news to make history more relatable through an exercise. She starts by showing slides and video clips to help explain the executive order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> On his first day in office, President Donald Trump sent an executive order to end universal birthright citizenship and limit it at birth to people with at least one parent who is a permanent resident or citizen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>The president wants to grant citizenship based on the parents’ immigration status.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Trump’s move could upend a 120-year-old Supreme Court precedent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Nakasutka has the students apply the executive order to real or fictitious people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Get out your post-it notes and look at what Trump is saying about who is allowed to be in America\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>She then asks her students to write down those names, while she takes a poster and draws two columns: a “yes” column and a “no” column.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>So if according to the Trump order, your person can be in America, that’s a yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Would that person be a citizen under the executive order? Or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>And according to His executive order, your person would not be, they have to have one parent who’s a permanent resident or citizen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>The students discuss among themselves the people they chose and what category they fall into. Then, while the students start putting their Post-it notes in the yes or no columns, Nakatsuka shares insights about herself about who in her family would be considered a citizen under the executive order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>So a lot of no’s are like my mom, like my mom wouldn’t have been able to be a citizen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does this order affect us? Yeah, it does. I mean it depends on people that you that you that you chose, right? so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump, Trump’s birthright order, if it was back when my mom was being born, my all my uncles and aunties wouldn’t be here, then I wouldn’t be here if they weren’t allowed to be citizens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Nakatsuka reminds them about the central question in this activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>You might know some friends, it might be your parents, right? And so that birthright citizen order is just like how we looked at the past. Who’s allowed to be here, who’s not allowed to be here? Who belongs in America, who is part of the we? Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Some of the students’ post-its under the NOs, as in, no, they wouldn’t be citizens under the executive order are “mom,” “dad,” “My friends” and “Wong Kim Ark.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the root of this lesson in history, though, is a lesson students can apply every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Alright, so citizenship is about belonging. What kind of America do we want to be? And we’ve been talking about that from the beginning, right? In the beginning , who is the we?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Learning about AAPI history has broader implications, Here’s professor Jane Hong again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong:\u003c/strong> Because of Asian American’s very specific history of being excluded from US citizenship, learning how much it took for folks to be able to engage kind of in the political process but also just in society more generally, knowing that history I would hope would inspire them to take advantage of the the rights and the privileges that they do have knowing how many people have fought and died for their right to do so like for me that that’s one of the most kind of weighty and important lessons of US history\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And this understanding isn’t just about AAPI history, but all American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>I think the more you understand about your own history and where you fit into kind of larger American society, the more likely it is that you will feel some kind of connection and desire to engage in like what you might call civic society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>About a dozen states have requirements to make AAPI history part of the curriculum in K-12 schools. If you’re looking for ways to learn more about AAPI history, Jane Hong has a couple of resources for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>One docuseries that I always recommend is the Asian-Americans docuseries on PBS. It’s five episodes, covers a long expanse of Asian-American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Her second resource recommendation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>The AAPI multimedia textbook that’s published and being published by the UCLA Asian American Studies Center. It is a massive enterprise with really dozens and dozens of historians, scholars from across the United States and the world. It’s peer reviewed, so everything that’s written by folks is peer reviewed by other experts in the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> For Jane and others committed to Asian American Pacific Islander history, the hope is that the complexity of American history is better understood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://sites.google.com/view/historyfrogedu/home\">Karalee Wong Nakatsuka\u003c/a> has been a history teacher at the same middle school in Arcadia – a community with a population that’s \u003ca href=\"https://censusreporter.org/profiles/16000US0602462-arcadia-ca/\">57% Asian\u003c/a> – since 1990. She had felt well-versed in American history throughout much of her career, but it wasn’t until a pivotal year in the lives of so many that she developed an even deeper understanding of Asian American history: 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The spread of COVID-19 and the anti-China sentiment that ensued spilled over to Asian Americans. There was also the murder of George Floyd, which was enabled by an Asian American police \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/officer-who-stood-george-floyd-died-asian-american-we-need-n1221311\">officer\u003c/a>. Asian elders were being targeted with violence, including one 84-year-old man who was \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/02/12/966940217/anger-and-fear-as-asian-american-seniors-targeted-in-bay-area-attacks\">pushed\u003c/a> to his death. In 2021, six women of Asian descent were killed in the Atlanta spa shooting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4056354895\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lack of understanding of the Asian American experience propelled Nakatsuka to contribute to a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gilderlehrman.org/professional-development/summer-pd/neh-summer-institute/pacific-crossings-asian-american-pacific-islander-histories\">summer program\u003c/a> to help 36 middle and high school teachers teach the richness of AAPI history. The program became a welcome resource, especially for Asian American students who were not learning about AAPI history at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listen to the latest episode of the MindShift podcast to learn about how students are learning about the broader contributions of Asian Americans and their activism and what that means for civic engagement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4056354895\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift Podcast where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, I want to take you to a middle school in a Los Angeles suburb so you can meet Karalee Wong Nakatsuka, an 8th grade history teacher at First Avenue Middle School. I visited back in May, which marked the beginning of a very special month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Morning. Happy AANHPI Heritage Month. No Phones!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Ms. Nakatsuka, greeting students at the door, was especially enthusiastic for Asian American Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander Heritage month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I’ve known her for about a year now, and let me tell you she is very passionate about her work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, we’re talking about citizenship and remember Joanne Furman says citizenship is about belonging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>This lesson is about a Chinese American man named Wong Kim Ark. Before this year, most people hadn’t heard of him. But anyone born in the United States over the past 127 years – has him and the 14th amendment to thank for U.S. citizenship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Wong Kim Ark was born of Chinese immigrants. And he says, I am an American, right? And they’re challenged, they test him whether or not he can be in America. And what do they say? They say no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Wong, with the support of the Chinese community in San Francisco, fought for HIS AND their right to citizenship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>But he challenges it, goes to the Supreme Court, and they say what? Yes, you are an American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>But Asian Americans like Wong Kim Ark, and their activism, are rarely remembered. Students may spend a lot of time on social media, but he doesn’t pop up on anyone’s feed. I asked some of Karalee’s students about times they’ve discussed AAPI history outside of her class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong>I think in seventh grade I might have like heard the term once or twice,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong> I never really like understood it. I think the first time I actually started learning about it was in Ms. Nakatsuka’s class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong>Like, we did Black history, obviously, and white history. And then also Native American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student:\u003c/strong> I think in Virginia when I grew up, I was surrounded by like an all white school and we did learn a lot about, like slavery and Black history but we never learned about anything like this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> These students are surrounded by information because they have phones and have social media. But AAPI history? That’s a tougher subject to learn about. Even in their Asian American families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Student: \u003c/strong>My parents immigrated here and I was born in India. I feel like overall, we just never really have the chance to talk about other races and AAPI history. We just are more secluded, so that’s why it was for me a big deal when we actually started learning about more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Coming up, what inspired one teacher to speak up about AAPI History. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Karalee Nakatsuka has been teaching history since 1990, and brings her own personal history to the subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chinese exclusion is my jam, because when my grandfather came, he was a paper son.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Meaning, he came to this country by asserting that he was a relative of someone already in the United States. Up until the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, specific immigrant groups weren’t targeted by exclusionary laws – anyone who showed up in this country just did so. But laws specifically excluding people of Chinese descent made impossible things like civic participation, justice, police protection, fair wages, home ownership. Adding to that, there were racist killings and calls for mass deportations all fanned by the media, pitting low wage workers against one another –\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>I, myself, because I didn’t understand history as well as I hope I understand it better now, like I’m talking with my students, like seeing the patterns, remembering– I mean, I’ve been teaching Chinese exclusion, I think probably from the beginning, but then connecting those lines and connecting to the present, that these view of the perpetual foreigners, view of yellow peril, these attitudes are still there and it’s really hard to shake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite her family history, Nakatsuka didn’t just learn how to teach AAPI history overnight. She didn’t instinctively know how to do this. It required professional development and a professional network – something she acquired only in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are several programs throughout the country that will train teachers on certain eras of US history – the early colonial period, the American revolution, the civil rights movement. However…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong:\u003c/strong> The reality is there’s very little training in Asian American history generally,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> That’s Jane Hong, a professor of history at Occidental College.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong :\u003c/strong> When you get to Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander histories, there’s even less training and even fewer opportunities and resources I think, for teachers, especially teachers outside of Hawaii, kind of the West, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>For context about her own school experience, Professor Hong grew up in a vibrant Asian American community on the East Coast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>I don’t think I learned any Asian American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>I did take AP US History. The AP US history exam does cover the kind of greatest hits version of Asian American history so the Chinese Exclusion Act Japanese American incarceration and that might be it right it’s really those two topics and then sometimes right the Spanish American War and so the US colonization of the Philippines but even those topics don’t go really deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Last year, she hosted a two-week training for about 36 middle and high school teachers on how to teach AAPI history. It was held at Occidental College as a pilot program. So, Why did she develop this program?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers, like students, benefit from having a facilitated experience when learning about any topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> In Hong’s training, teaching strategies are taught alongside history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The teachers read books, visited historic sites and watched sections of documentary films, such as “Free Chol Soo Lee.” The documentary is about a wrongly convicted Korean American man whom police insisted was a Chinatown gang member in the 1970s. The documentary is also about the Asian American activism that helped eventually free him from prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teacher Karalee Nakatsuka helped as a master teacher in Hong’s training. She realized she needed something like this after a pivotal year in the lives of so many: 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>While the murder of George Floyd sparked a racial reckoning, AAPI hate was steeply rising. Asian Americans were blamed for COVID, Asian elders were pushed violently on sidewalks, sometimes to their death. Others onto subway tracks and killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>My kids were, during the pandemic, someone yelled Wuhan at them when they were in the store with my husband, with their dad, and like, I thought we were in a very safe neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>And then, the Atlanta spa shootings happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsclip sound\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>In March 2021, A white gunman killed 8 people, 6 of them women of Asian descent. Investigators said the killings weren’t racially motivated, but that’s not how Asian American women perceived it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>And across the country, all these teachers across, because I had met these really, really cool people important people, history people, civics people, and they reached out to me from across the country saying, are you okay? And I was like, “Oh, yeah, I’m okay. You should reach out to your other AAPI folks.” But then I was… I was like, I’m not okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>After a series of exchanges with professional friends, Karalee took action. She became more visible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> This is not normal Karalee. This is what Karalee normally does. But I felt so compelled to use my voice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>She also became more outspoken about her experience. Like on the Let’s K12 Better Podcast with host Amber Coleman Mortley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amber Coleman Mortley:\u003c/strong> Does anyone else I just want to jump in on the question that I had posed or.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> I’ll speak up. When you say empathy, that’s like one of my favorite words. And that’s huge because after Atlanta, people, it’s just all these wounds that we’ve had that have been festering that we don’t look at. I mean that as Asians, we are like taught, put your head down and just do everything and do it the best, do it better, because we always have to prove ourselves. And so we just live our lives and that’s just how it is. But we’ve been really introspective. And we’ve suffered microaggressions and harms and we just kind of keep on going. But after Atlanta, we’re like, maybe we need to speak up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>And there was a letter written to colleagues – which a lot of Asian American women did at the time – in an attempt for understanding from their community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>…and I said, I just want to let you know what it’s like to be Asian- American during this time. And if I read that letter now, it feels very personal, it feels very raw and sharing just experiences of getting the wrong report card for my kid because they’re giving it to the Asian parent or my You know, different things, people mixing up Asian American people. So all those things came together to just make me feel like, hey, I need to respond. So also in my classroom, I said I need to, I need to teach anti-Asian hate. And these are all things that I don’t remember being formally taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Karalee’s passion for AAPI history soon got an even bigger audience. She was already a Gilda Lehrman California history teacher of the year. But then she spoke out at more conferences and webinars and ran a professional community. She was featured in the New York Times and Time Magazine. She wrote a book called “Bringing History and Civics to Life,” which centers student empathy in lessons about people in American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Back in her classroom, history from the 1800s feels contemporary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Okay, so in the 1870s, what is the attitude towards the Chinese after the railroad is already built? They’re villains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> They’re villains. What else? They’re taking our jobs. They’re taking over our country. We don’t want them, right? And as a result of this anti-Chinese sentiment from across the country, they decide, okay, we’re going to exclude the Chinese. So 1882, Chinese Exclusion Act. All Chinese are excluded. But was the 14th Amendment still written in 1882? Yeah, it was written in 1868. So what do we do about that birthright citizenship thing? And they challenge it under Wong Kim Ark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> The 1800s is relevant again because of the executive order signed by President Trump in his second term to redefine birthright citizenship. This executive order is making its way through the courts right now AND upends the 127-year old application of birthright citizenship as granting U.S. citizenship to individuals born within the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nakatsuka uses the news to make history more relatable through an exercise. She starts by showing slides and video clips to help explain the executive order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka:\u003c/strong> On his first day in office, President Donald Trump sent an executive order to end universal birthright citizenship and limit it at birth to people with at least one parent who is a permanent resident or citizen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>The president wants to grant citizenship based on the parents’ immigration status.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Trump’s move could upend a 120-year-old Supreme Court precedent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Nakasutka has the students apply the executive order to real or fictitious people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Get out your post-it notes and look at what Trump is saying about who is allowed to be in America\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>She then asks her students to write down those names, while she takes a poster and draws two columns: a “yes” column and a “no” column.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>So if according to the Trump order, your person can be in America, that’s a yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Would that person be a citizen under the executive order? Or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>And according to His executive order, your person would not be, they have to have one parent who’s a permanent resident or citizen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>The students discuss among themselves the people they chose and what category they fall into. Then, while the students start putting their Post-it notes in the yes or no columns, Nakatsuka shares insights about herself about who in her family would be considered a citizen under the executive order.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>So a lot of no’s are like my mom, like my mom wouldn’t have been able to be a citizen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does this order affect us? Yeah, it does. I mean it depends on people that you that you that you chose, right? so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump, Trump’s birthright order, if it was back when my mom was being born, my all my uncles and aunties wouldn’t be here, then I wouldn’t be here if they weren’t allowed to be citizens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Nakatsuka reminds them about the central question in this activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>You might know some friends, it might be your parents, right? And so that birthright citizen order is just like how we looked at the past. Who’s allowed to be here, who’s not allowed to be here? Who belongs in America, who is part of the we? Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Some of the students’ post-its under the NOs, as in, no, they wouldn’t be citizens under the executive order are “mom,” “dad,” “My friends” and “Wong Kim Ark.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the root of this lesson in history, though, is a lesson students can apply every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Karalee Nakatsuka: \u003c/strong>Alright, so citizenship is about belonging. What kind of America do we want to be? And we’ve been talking about that from the beginning, right? In the beginning , who is the we?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Learning about AAPI history has broader implications, Here’s professor Jane Hong again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong:\u003c/strong> Because of Asian American’s very specific history of being excluded from US citizenship, learning how much it took for folks to be able to engage kind of in the political process but also just in society more generally, knowing that history I would hope would inspire them to take advantage of the the rights and the privileges that they do have knowing how many people have fought and died for their right to do so like for me that that’s one of the most kind of weighty and important lessons of US history\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> And this understanding isn’t just about AAPI history, but all American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>I think the more you understand about your own history and where you fit into kind of larger American society, the more likely it is that you will feel some kind of connection and desire to engage in like what you might call civic society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>About a dozen states have requirements to make AAPI history part of the curriculum in K-12 schools. If you’re looking for ways to learn more about AAPI history, Jane Hong has a couple of resources for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>One docuseries that I always recommend is the Asian-Americans docuseries on PBS. It’s five episodes, covers a long expanse of Asian-American history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Her second resource recommendation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jane Hong: \u003c/strong>The AAPI multimedia textbook that’s published and being published by the UCLA Asian American Studies Center. It is a massive enterprise with really dozens and dozens of historians, scholars from across the United States and the world. It’s peer reviewed, so everything that’s written by folks is peer reviewed by other experts in the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> For Jane and others committed to Asian American Pacific Islander history, the hope is that the complexity of American history is better understood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Kyle, a 10th grader at Palo Alto High School, walked into his final debate of the day, he was hoping for an easy finish to a long tournament. Instead, he found himself face-to-face with an opponent known for being challenging and loud. “The entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs,” Kyle recalled. “It really tested my ability to stay calm. There were so many times I wanted to scream back, but I didn’t.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kyle’s experience isn’t unique. From school board meetings to online comment sections, many people have been in situations where emotions take over and voices rise. At a time when \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">public discourse often feels combative and chaotic\u003c/a>, high school speech and debate helps students learn how to stay composed in these moments, to speak with intention, and to listen when tensions run high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Speech and debate offers this amazing gift,” said Kyle Hietala, a speech and debate coach at Palo Alto High School. “No matter what event you’re in, you’re guaranteed a set amount of time to speak. No interruptions. No shouting over you. Your voice will be heard.” Additionally, speech and debate allows students to experiment with different communication styles, source reliable information and practice public speaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Kyle, the student, the experience has been transformative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandfather once called me wishy-washy, which I interpret as him saying I didn’t really mean it when I said something,” he said. But after joining speech and debate, he improved his communication skills in several ways. “I became more confident, less shy; it got easier to get my point across.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Learning to Think Critically About Information\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Speech and debate can teach students how to think critically about the information they use to build an argument, which. includes learning how to evaluate sources. Fewer young people rely on traditional news, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/fact-sheet/social-media-and-news-fact-sheet/\">many Gen Z students get information from social media platforms\u003c/a> where algorithms can reinforce existing beliefs. But that approach won’t work in a debate round. Since students are expected to back up their claims with credible sources, they quickly learn the difference between reliable information and content that won’t hold up under scrutiny. If a student cites a TikTok in a debate, their opponent will be quick to call it “not verifiable,” said Priya Garcia, a speech and debate coach at Leland High School\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Removing social media as a primary source is one of several ways speech and debate can expand students’ information diets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re forced to passionately engage in a bunch of research and learn more about the world overall,” said Samit, a twelfth grader from Nueva School. “You aren’t biased by social media because you’ve done the research and advocated for the perspectives that go both for and against that media.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students may not always change their minds, but they become more aware of what shapes their thinking as they question their assumptions, consider multiple viewpoints, and build arguments rooted in evidence. “I didn’t keep up with the news when I started high school,” said Tessa, a student at Palo Alto High School who reads the news daily. “Now I feel so much more educated about what’s going on around me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding the Right Format for Every Student\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The range of events available in high school speech and debate clubs allows students to find formats that suit their unique personalities, research styles, and interests. Coach Garcia compares it to track and field. Students can pick and choose the events that fit them best and they can do more than one, she said. For example, a student who enjoys philosophical questions might gravitate toward Lincoln-Douglas debate, which focuses on moral and ethical dilemmas. Someone more interested in current events might choose policy debate, which centers on government action and real-world proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although students are often assigned a side in debate events, they usually study both sides of the issue to prepare counterarguments and strengthen their position. “You’re open to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/50983/how-debate-structures-allow-english-learners-brilliance-to-shine\">more arguments and more sources\u003c/a>. It kind of opens you up to a lot more ideas,” said Narendra, a twelfth grader from Archbishop Mitty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While many students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/52590/why-debate-may-be-the-best-way-to-save-constructive-disagreement\">grow by exploring different sides of an argument\u003c/a>, coaches understand that not everyone is comfortable defending an argument they do not agree with. “If a student is hesitant to defend a position they don’t agree with,” said Garcia, “We’ll often guide them toward a speech event, or something like Congressional Debate. It’s called a debate, but it allows for a lot more personal choice in what topics students prepare and argue.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Garcia said usually students’ beliefs do not hamper their ability to debate. “Having opinions isn’t a bad thing. It can actually fuel their research.” She encourages students to use their discomfort as a tool for deeper inquiry and ask themselves questions like, “What are the sub-arguments on this side of the resolution that make me feel weird or uneasy? Why do I feel that way? And how can I find sources that still support my side, but in a way that aligns with my values?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Facing the Fear and Finding Your Voice\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Debate isn’t just for extroverts. In fact, many quieter or more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62119/how-extroverted-teachers-can-engage-introverted-students\">introverted students thrive\u003c/a> in debate. Their thoughtfulness often becomes an asset in constructing well-reasoned, creative arguments, said coach Hietala.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6447508/#:~:text=Age%2Dof%2Donset%20data%20point,lead%20to%20better%20treatment%20outcomes.\">Fear of public speaking is common, especially for teenagers\u003c/a>. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students noted that speech and debate gave them the tools to work through that fear, even in interpersonal relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alejandro, a ninth grade student from Palo Alto High School, said that he’s always liked to talk, but since starting speech and debate his confidence has expanded. “I’m confident about talking not just about jokes and funny things, but actually about complicated topics and sad topics,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those who participate in debate may still get nervous when they speak. However, they learn that nervousness is something they can work through. “Speech and debate has definitely helped me control my own emotions around that,” said Motoko, a student at Palo Alto High School. “I’m more comfortable talking in front of people and sharing my own ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5130606911\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I walk into Palo Alto High School, the energy is electric. I’ve been to basketball games, school plays, even science fairs, but I’ve never seen anything quite like this. This is a high school debate tournament. Students in suits pace the hallways, whispering arguments under their breath. Some are huddled over laptops, scrolling through pages of notes. Others repeatedly refresh a website, waiting to see their next opponent. And in a few minutes, I’m about to step into my first round as a spectator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’ll be watching Holden, a senior at Palo Alto High School, debate a student from another school. When I talked to Holden a few weeks before, it was over Zoom. He was casual, funny, and relaxed. But today, as I spot him across the crowded school hallway, he’s buttoned-up in a suit, laptop in hand. He looks focused\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> It can be kind of stressful when you’re waiting for results to come out or you’re just waiting for the next round to drop, which I’m waiting for right now. But kind of distracting yourself with other things and not focusing on debate all the time is very, very helpful, especially since you’re at these tournaments for so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In speech and debate clubs across the country, students like Holden are learning to craft strong, structured arguments—they’re developing skills that will serve them well in school, careers, and life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program everyone in the hallway is refreshing tells students where to go, who they’ll be debating, and which side of the argument they’ll take. Holden sees his opponent’s name pop up—Hannah. He’s met her in other tournaments before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Hannah’s a really great debater and so I think overall, yeah she, I mean very persuasive, very articulate, so we’ll see, I have no clue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He shuts his laptop and motions for me to follow him. We weave through the crowd to a classroom where two judges sit at student desks. Hannah, also in a suit, is poised with her laptop open. The room is expectant, a little tense. Then, the round begins with Hannah\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> This will be a six minute affirmative speech. I’ll just be going over my contentions. And time starts now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lincoln-Douglas style debate. One person argues for a resolution—a big, philosophical statement—while the other argues against it. Today’s resolution? Well… I’ll let Hannah tell you\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral. Hannah is arguing for the affirmative. She lays out her case: Artificial General Intelligence – also called AGI- threatens jobs, accelerates inequality, and consumes massive amounts of energy. She cites sources, scanning her laptop while keeping her focus on the judges. Holden listens carefully, scribbling down notes and then stands up for cross-examination, which means he’ll ask Hannah some clarifying questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Let’s first talk about your first contention about economics.You talk about how AGI will replace workers. Could you read me a specific piece of evidence from your case that says that AGI will displace many workers and not just AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> Yes, That’s specifically the first part in the affirmative contention…..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then it’s his turn to argue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden Lee:\u003c/strong> the affirmative must prove that AGI development is inherently that…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He counters that AGI can enhance human well-being, improve healthcare, and make agriculture more sustainable. He questions whether AGI development is inherently immoral, pointing out that misuse doesn’t mean the technology itself is bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> There are three main areas AGI would benefit human health: Disease diagnosis, cancer treatment, and drug innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For 40 minutes, they go back and forth, quickly challenging each other’s claims, quoting studies, asking sharp questions. And here’s what surprises me: They’re arguing hard, but they’re listening, too. They don’t interrupt. They engage with each other’s ideas. It’s not the shouting match I’ve come to expect from political debates on TV or the kind of back-and-forth you see online, where people talk past each other instead of truly listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> AGI poses an unprecedented threat to workers and the economy at large. Siphonover25 explains that AGI possesses the capability to fully replace cognitive and physical labor, rendering human employment obsolete across numerous industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I find it very hard to believe that everyone is just going to lose their job with AGI. That’s exactly what people said when tractors and other forms of agriculture, agricultural innovations displaced millions of Americans from the agricultural sector. But Americans aren’t all unemployed today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then, just like that, it’s over. They shake hands, gather their papers, and walk out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah and Holden:\u003c/strong> thanks, good debate\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I find Holden in the hallway after. He looks calm and collected. Meanwhile, as a person who does not like confrontation, I’ve been sweating from just watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I think overall the debate was very high quality, lots of substance, lot of new points that I didn’t prep for and so I had to kind of think on my feet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln Douglass debaters know the topic beforehand and they have a few weeks to research it, but they don’t know if they will be asked to argue the affirmative or the negative. Holden could just as easily have been asked to argue the other side. Lincoln-Douglas debaters have to prepare for both positions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> The flip -flopping’s kind of hard. You have to get adjusted to it. You have to go from being fervently, you know, denying it, you know, an argument into the affirmative affirmation of it. And so it’s a really good skill to develop, though, to be able to flip -flop and kind of see. just kind of a broader perspective of how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate clubs give students the chance to communicate ideas that might be different from their actual opinions and there’s room for everyone to practice that skill in a way that fits their style.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’ll hear from students who specialize in different speech and debate events, explore what keeps them motivated, and ask a bigger question: Could learning to debate make all of us better at having tough conversations? That’s coming up next on MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Many of us avoid tough conversations. Not because we don’t care, but because we’re afraid. Afraid of being judged, of saying the wrong thing, of facing backlash. But avoiding these conversations doesn’t keep us safe. In fact, it keeps us disconnected. Knowing how to express your views and truly engage with others is a skill that helps students build deeper relationships, shape their thinking, and even change the way they see the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kyle Hietala, one of the debate coaches at Palo Alto High School told me that the structure students have to follow is helpful for making sure everyone can say their piece\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate offers this amazing gift where you are guaranteed an exact number of minutes to speak regardless of the type of speech and debate event that you’re in. You’re guaranteed to not be interrupted or shouted over or shouted down in your speaking time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s uncommon for a debate to go off the rails the way conversations might at a tense Thanksgiving dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> The students generally check each other on it. It’s really rare that I have to step in and kind of say like, Whoa, chill or like let’s step back for a second\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It also helps that there are a variety of speech and debate events, so students can explore what feels best for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to use the comparison of like track and field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Priya Garcia, one of the speech and debate coaches at Leland High School,which is a school that participated in the tournament.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Not every student does shot put, not every student does javelin, not every student does the hurdles like Students get to pick and choose which events are best suited for them. They’re testing out different styles of athleticism and different skills. There’s different preparation involved for each of those track and field events. Speech and debate is similar in that there are, at least on the California level, 17 different events that are available… national level is a little bit different. And I do have students who do a speech event and a debate event\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln-Douglas is about philosophy and big-picture thinking, whereas Policy Debate is a two-on-two debate where teams research and argue for or against a specific policy. Like in this round on the language used when describing abuse in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then there’s Public Forum Debate, which is more like what you might expect from a political debate—teams of two arguing over real-world policy issues. LIke here where students are arguing over us trade agreements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a Public Forum debate]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Everyone has their own style. Some people love the technical aspects of Policy, others like the philosophy of Lincoln-Douglas. And then there are speech events—where you perform, almost like theater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a speech event]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Interestingly enough, when I talked to students who participate in speech and debate about whether they have changed their mind about something, they said no, not really. They described it as more of an expansion of their knowledge about certain topics and ability to think about things in new ways. Here’s Priya\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Most of the time we have students who are able to set aside their personal opinions for the sake of the debate. And for them, for the sake of winning, because that’s what they care about at their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Occasionally, students don’t want to argue for beliefs they disagree with. In that case, a coach might steer them toward a different style of speech or debate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> We’ll lean them more towards a speech event where they get to pick their side. towards a congressional debate, which is, it’s called a debate, but they get to do a lot of preparation on the stuff that they actually care about in that round.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But in general, having opinions about a topic is a strength that coaches help students use to their advantage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> They’re also able to use those opinions to fuel their research. They’re able to take and think about like, wait, why do I feel like that? What are some of the sub arguments within this side of the resolution that make me feel like a little weird maybe, or maybe make me feel a little bit bad about the side that I’m advocating for? And why do I feel that way? And how can I channel that into picking? Evidence and sources that don’t make me feel that way and yet are trying to prove a similar point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> You learn how to think fast on your feet\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Tessa. She’s a sophomore from Palo Alto High School, who does an event called extemporaneous speech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> you also have to learn how to be fluent and not stumble over yourself. And if you do make a mistake, then you got to recover really fast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Fear of public speaking is common. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students who participate in debate club may still get nervous when they are speaking, but they know it’s only temporary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I think this translates very well into your classes and giving presentations. Also, my coach jokes around that like if you forget to do your slideshow, just like pull up an image and then you can give that speech and then just like make the whole thing up on the spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Another major benefit? Debate keeps students engaged with current events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I did not keep up with the news when I was going into high school and I feel like now I’m so much more educated in what’s going on around me and even like with the elections, I’d say this was the first election that I actually cared about because I was reading the news over and over again and looking at polls and like, oh my God, Trump, Kamala, Trump, Kamala, like what’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The number of young people who read or watch traditional news has been declining. But citing TikTok in a debate round? That won’t fly. Here’s Priya again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to tell them that social media is a tool, much like a pen. I can use it to write a nice poem or I can use it to poke someone’s eye out. So with that same vein, any of their interest in social media has actually led them to a variety of new pieces of evidence and new sources. but then at the same time, me being like, oh, make sure that that thing that you saw on TikTok actually has a citation in the description, and then go to the citation in the description instead of just citing the TikTok as is. Making sure that they’re kind of doing all of that backtracking, finding out what the original source was, because rest assured, their opponents are gonna tell them in round, wait a second, you just got this from TikTok? That’s not verifiable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the most critical skills that speech and debate teaches students is how to regulate their emotions in high-stress situations. Kyle, a freshman at Palo Alto High School, told me about a time he had to learn this firsthand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> I walked into my last round of the day and i thought i could finally breathe a sigh of relief but what ended up happening was my opponent was very good and she actually is quite well renowned for being a bit mean to her opponents and so the entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> It was really kind of a trial of my ability to stay calm because there were countless times where I wanted to like stand up and scream at her too but I didn’t end up doing that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I just want to emphasize Kyle is 14 years old, and he’s already mastered something that many adults struggle with: how to stay engaged in tough conversations without making them personal. He understands that debating an issue passionately doesn’t mean attacking the person on the other side. Last year’s presidential debates show how badly this lesson is needed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Snipes from presidential debates]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they do not follow the rules of debate in the presidential election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our politicians aren’t exactly setting the best example for constructive discussion. But students? They’re leading the way—debate by debate, tournament by tournament. Speech and Debate is giving them the space to practice not just the fundamentals of argumentation, but the fundamentals of democracy and strong relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There are so many benefits to your students in starting this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Byron R. Arthur. He’s Board President of the National Speech and Debate Association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There’s some studies that have been done, particularly around young people of color or young people that are called, quote, unquote, at risk, where those students who’ve been involved in debate have significantly better academic and social behavioral outcomes than their similarly situated peers who do not. You’re going to see it in your test scores. You will see it in your attendance at school.You will see it in a decrease in suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you’re listening to this and thinking, “I wish I had done debate in high school” or maybe “I wish my school had a debate program,” there’s good news. You don’t need to wait for an official team to get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> if the question is, should we start one? My answer would be, oh, hell, yes! Reach out to the National Speech and Debate Association. Our goal is that every school in this country will one day have a speech and debate program. Every one of them. That’s what we’re aiming for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> And so if a school wants to start it, there’s no excuse. There’s absolutely no excuse. Reach out to the office, reach out to the organization. And we’ve got people there who help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before I went to this tournament, I thought debate was all about being the loudest, the most confident, the quickest on your feet. But after watching these students, I realized it’s actually about curiosity, the ability to hold two ideas in your head at once. The skill of truly listening. That’s something we could all use a little more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This episode would not have been possible without Palo Alto High School: Kyle Hietala, Tessa, Motoko, Kyle the student and Holden. Thank you to Priya Garcia and Students at Leeland. Thank you to student at Archbishop Midi and Nueva, including Hannah. Thank you Byron R. Arthur\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Marnette Federis and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick, Seth Samuel is our sound designer, Jen Chien is our head of podcasts, Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Holly Kernan is KQED’s chief content officer. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Kyle, a 10th grader at Palo Alto High School, walked into his final debate of the day, he was hoping for an easy finish to a long tournament. Instead, he found himself face-to-face with an opponent known for being challenging and loud. “The entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs,” Kyle recalled. “It really tested my ability to stay calm. There were so many times I wanted to scream back, but I didn’t.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kyle’s experience isn’t unique. From school board meetings to online comment sections, many people have been in situations where emotions take over and voices rise. At a time when \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">public discourse often feels combative and chaotic\u003c/a>, high school speech and debate helps students learn how to stay composed in these moments, to speak with intention, and to listen when tensions run high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Speech and debate offers this amazing gift,” said Kyle Hietala, a speech and debate coach at Palo Alto High School. “No matter what event you’re in, you’re guaranteed a set amount of time to speak. No interruptions. No shouting over you. Your voice will be heard.” Additionally, speech and debate allows students to experiment with different communication styles, source reliable information and practice public speaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Kyle, the student, the experience has been transformative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandfather once called me wishy-washy, which I interpret as him saying I didn’t really mean it when I said something,” he said. But after joining speech and debate, he improved his communication skills in several ways. “I became more confident, less shy; it got easier to get my point across.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Learning to Think Critically About Information\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Speech and debate can teach students how to think critically about the information they use to build an argument, which. includes learning how to evaluate sources. Fewer young people rely on traditional news, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/fact-sheet/social-media-and-news-fact-sheet/\">many Gen Z students get information from social media platforms\u003c/a> where algorithms can reinforce existing beliefs. But that approach won’t work in a debate round. Since students are expected to back up their claims with credible sources, they quickly learn the difference between reliable information and content that won’t hold up under scrutiny. If a student cites a TikTok in a debate, their opponent will be quick to call it “not verifiable,” said Priya Garcia, a speech and debate coach at Leland High School\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Removing social media as a primary source is one of several ways speech and debate can expand students’ information diets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re forced to passionately engage in a bunch of research and learn more about the world overall,” said Samit, a twelfth grader from Nueva School. “You aren’t biased by social media because you’ve done the research and advocated for the perspectives that go both for and against that media.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students may not always change their minds, but they become more aware of what shapes their thinking as they question their assumptions, consider multiple viewpoints, and build arguments rooted in evidence. “I didn’t keep up with the news when I started high school,” said Tessa, a student at Palo Alto High School who reads the news daily. “Now I feel so much more educated about what’s going on around me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding the Right Format for Every Student\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The range of events available in high school speech and debate clubs allows students to find formats that suit their unique personalities, research styles, and interests. Coach Garcia compares it to track and field. Students can pick and choose the events that fit them best and they can do more than one, she said. For example, a student who enjoys philosophical questions might gravitate toward Lincoln-Douglas debate, which focuses on moral and ethical dilemmas. Someone more interested in current events might choose policy debate, which centers on government action and real-world proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although students are often assigned a side in debate events, they usually study both sides of the issue to prepare counterarguments and strengthen their position. “You’re open to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/50983/how-debate-structures-allow-english-learners-brilliance-to-shine\">more arguments and more sources\u003c/a>. It kind of opens you up to a lot more ideas,” said Narendra, a twelfth grader from Archbishop Mitty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While many students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/52590/why-debate-may-be-the-best-way-to-save-constructive-disagreement\">grow by exploring different sides of an argument\u003c/a>, coaches understand that not everyone is comfortable defending an argument they do not agree with. “If a student is hesitant to defend a position they don’t agree with,” said Garcia, “We’ll often guide them toward a speech event, or something like Congressional Debate. It’s called a debate, but it allows for a lot more personal choice in what topics students prepare and argue.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Garcia said usually students’ beliefs do not hamper their ability to debate. “Having opinions isn’t a bad thing. It can actually fuel their research.” She encourages students to use their discomfort as a tool for deeper inquiry and ask themselves questions like, “What are the sub-arguments on this side of the resolution that make me feel weird or uneasy? Why do I feel that way? And how can I find sources that still support my side, but in a way that aligns with my values?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Facing the Fear and Finding Your Voice\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Debate isn’t just for extroverts. In fact, many quieter or more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62119/how-extroverted-teachers-can-engage-introverted-students\">introverted students thrive\u003c/a> in debate. Their thoughtfulness often becomes an asset in constructing well-reasoned, creative arguments, said coach Hietala.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6447508/#:~:text=Age%2Dof%2Donset%20data%20point,lead%20to%20better%20treatment%20outcomes.\">Fear of public speaking is common, especially for teenagers\u003c/a>. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students noted that speech and debate gave them the tools to work through that fear, even in interpersonal relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alejandro, a ninth grade student from Palo Alto High School, said that he’s always liked to talk, but since starting speech and debate his confidence has expanded. “I’m confident about talking not just about jokes and funny things, but actually about complicated topics and sad topics,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those who participate in debate may still get nervous when they speak. However, they learn that nervousness is something they can work through. “Speech and debate has definitely helped me control my own emotions around that,” said Motoko, a student at Palo Alto High School. “I’m more comfortable talking in front of people and sharing my own ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5130606911\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I walk into Palo Alto High School, the energy is electric. I’ve been to basketball games, school plays, even science fairs, but I’ve never seen anything quite like this. This is a high school debate tournament. Students in suits pace the hallways, whispering arguments under their breath. Some are huddled over laptops, scrolling through pages of notes. Others repeatedly refresh a website, waiting to see their next opponent. And in a few minutes, I’m about to step into my first round as a spectator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’ll be watching Holden, a senior at Palo Alto High School, debate a student from another school. When I talked to Holden a few weeks before, it was over Zoom. He was casual, funny, and relaxed. But today, as I spot him across the crowded school hallway, he’s buttoned-up in a suit, laptop in hand. He looks focused\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> It can be kind of stressful when you’re waiting for results to come out or you’re just waiting for the next round to drop, which I’m waiting for right now. But kind of distracting yourself with other things and not focusing on debate all the time is very, very helpful, especially since you’re at these tournaments for so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In speech and debate clubs across the country, students like Holden are learning to craft strong, structured arguments—they’re developing skills that will serve them well in school, careers, and life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program everyone in the hallway is refreshing tells students where to go, who they’ll be debating, and which side of the argument they’ll take. Holden sees his opponent’s name pop up—Hannah. He’s met her in other tournaments before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Hannah’s a really great debater and so I think overall, yeah she, I mean very persuasive, very articulate, so we’ll see, I have no clue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He shuts his laptop and motions for me to follow him. We weave through the crowd to a classroom where two judges sit at student desks. Hannah, also in a suit, is poised with her laptop open. The room is expectant, a little tense. Then, the round begins with Hannah\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> This will be a six minute affirmative speech. I’ll just be going over my contentions. And time starts now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lincoln-Douglas style debate. One person argues for a resolution—a big, philosophical statement—while the other argues against it. Today’s resolution? Well… I’ll let Hannah tell you\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral. Hannah is arguing for the affirmative. She lays out her case: Artificial General Intelligence – also called AGI- threatens jobs, accelerates inequality, and consumes massive amounts of energy. She cites sources, scanning her laptop while keeping her focus on the judges. Holden listens carefully, scribbling down notes and then stands up for cross-examination, which means he’ll ask Hannah some clarifying questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Let’s first talk about your first contention about economics.You talk about how AGI will replace workers. Could you read me a specific piece of evidence from your case that says that AGI will displace many workers and not just AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> Yes, That’s specifically the first part in the affirmative contention…..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then it’s his turn to argue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden Lee:\u003c/strong> the affirmative must prove that AGI development is inherently that…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He counters that AGI can enhance human well-being, improve healthcare, and make agriculture more sustainable. He questions whether AGI development is inherently immoral, pointing out that misuse doesn’t mean the technology itself is bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> There are three main areas AGI would benefit human health: Disease diagnosis, cancer treatment, and drug innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For 40 minutes, they go back and forth, quickly challenging each other’s claims, quoting studies, asking sharp questions. And here’s what surprises me: They’re arguing hard, but they’re listening, too. They don’t interrupt. They engage with each other’s ideas. It’s not the shouting match I’ve come to expect from political debates on TV or the kind of back-and-forth you see online, where people talk past each other instead of truly listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> AGI poses an unprecedented threat to workers and the economy at large. Siphonover25 explains that AGI possesses the capability to fully replace cognitive and physical labor, rendering human employment obsolete across numerous industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I find it very hard to believe that everyone is just going to lose their job with AGI. That’s exactly what people said when tractors and other forms of agriculture, agricultural innovations displaced millions of Americans from the agricultural sector. But Americans aren’t all unemployed today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then, just like that, it’s over. They shake hands, gather their papers, and walk out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah and Holden:\u003c/strong> thanks, good debate\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I find Holden in the hallway after. He looks calm and collected. Meanwhile, as a person who does not like confrontation, I’ve been sweating from just watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I think overall the debate was very high quality, lots of substance, lot of new points that I didn’t prep for and so I had to kind of think on my feet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln Douglass debaters know the topic beforehand and they have a few weeks to research it, but they don’t know if they will be asked to argue the affirmative or the negative. Holden could just as easily have been asked to argue the other side. Lincoln-Douglas debaters have to prepare for both positions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> The flip -flopping’s kind of hard. You have to get adjusted to it. You have to go from being fervently, you know, denying it, you know, an argument into the affirmative affirmation of it. And so it’s a really good skill to develop, though, to be able to flip -flop and kind of see. just kind of a broader perspective of how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate clubs give students the chance to communicate ideas that might be different from their actual opinions and there’s room for everyone to practice that skill in a way that fits their style.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’ll hear from students who specialize in different speech and debate events, explore what keeps them motivated, and ask a bigger question: Could learning to debate make all of us better at having tough conversations? That’s coming up next on MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Many of us avoid tough conversations. Not because we don’t care, but because we’re afraid. Afraid of being judged, of saying the wrong thing, of facing backlash. But avoiding these conversations doesn’t keep us safe. In fact, it keeps us disconnected. Knowing how to express your views and truly engage with others is a skill that helps students build deeper relationships, shape their thinking, and even change the way they see the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kyle Hietala, one of the debate coaches at Palo Alto High School told me that the structure students have to follow is helpful for making sure everyone can say their piece\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate offers this amazing gift where you are guaranteed an exact number of minutes to speak regardless of the type of speech and debate event that you’re in. You’re guaranteed to not be interrupted or shouted over or shouted down in your speaking time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s uncommon for a debate to go off the rails the way conversations might at a tense Thanksgiving dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> The students generally check each other on it. It’s really rare that I have to step in and kind of say like, Whoa, chill or like let’s step back for a second\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It also helps that there are a variety of speech and debate events, so students can explore what feels best for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to use the comparison of like track and field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Priya Garcia, one of the speech and debate coaches at Leland High School,which is a school that participated in the tournament.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Not every student does shot put, not every student does javelin, not every student does the hurdles like Students get to pick and choose which events are best suited for them. They’re testing out different styles of athleticism and different skills. There’s different preparation involved for each of those track and field events. Speech and debate is similar in that there are, at least on the California level, 17 different events that are available… national level is a little bit different. And I do have students who do a speech event and a debate event\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln-Douglas is about philosophy and big-picture thinking, whereas Policy Debate is a two-on-two debate where teams research and argue for or against a specific policy. Like in this round on the language used when describing abuse in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then there’s Public Forum Debate, which is more like what you might expect from a political debate—teams of two arguing over real-world policy issues. LIke here where students are arguing over us trade agreements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a Public Forum debate]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Everyone has their own style. Some people love the technical aspects of Policy, others like the philosophy of Lincoln-Douglas. And then there are speech events—where you perform, almost like theater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a speech event]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Interestingly enough, when I talked to students who participate in speech and debate about whether they have changed their mind about something, they said no, not really. They described it as more of an expansion of their knowledge about certain topics and ability to think about things in new ways. Here’s Priya\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Most of the time we have students who are able to set aside their personal opinions for the sake of the debate. And for them, for the sake of winning, because that’s what they care about at their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Occasionally, students don’t want to argue for beliefs they disagree with. In that case, a coach might steer them toward a different style of speech or debate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> We’ll lean them more towards a speech event where they get to pick their side. towards a congressional debate, which is, it’s called a debate, but they get to do a lot of preparation on the stuff that they actually care about in that round.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But in general, having opinions about a topic is a strength that coaches help students use to their advantage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> They’re also able to use those opinions to fuel their research. They’re able to take and think about like, wait, why do I feel like that? What are some of the sub arguments within this side of the resolution that make me feel like a little weird maybe, or maybe make me feel a little bit bad about the side that I’m advocating for? And why do I feel that way? And how can I channel that into picking? Evidence and sources that don’t make me feel that way and yet are trying to prove a similar point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> You learn how to think fast on your feet\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Tessa. She’s a sophomore from Palo Alto High School, who does an event called extemporaneous speech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> you also have to learn how to be fluent and not stumble over yourself. And if you do make a mistake, then you got to recover really fast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Fear of public speaking is common. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students who participate in debate club may still get nervous when they are speaking, but they know it’s only temporary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I think this translates very well into your classes and giving presentations. Also, my coach jokes around that like if you forget to do your slideshow, just like pull up an image and then you can give that speech and then just like make the whole thing up on the spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Another major benefit? Debate keeps students engaged with current events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I did not keep up with the news when I was going into high school and I feel like now I’m so much more educated in what’s going on around me and even like with the elections, I’d say this was the first election that I actually cared about because I was reading the news over and over again and looking at polls and like, oh my God, Trump, Kamala, Trump, Kamala, like what’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The number of young people who read or watch traditional news has been declining. But citing TikTok in a debate round? That won’t fly. Here’s Priya again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to tell them that social media is a tool, much like a pen. I can use it to write a nice poem or I can use it to poke someone’s eye out. So with that same vein, any of their interest in social media has actually led them to a variety of new pieces of evidence and new sources. but then at the same time, me being like, oh, make sure that that thing that you saw on TikTok actually has a citation in the description, and then go to the citation in the description instead of just citing the TikTok as is. Making sure that they’re kind of doing all of that backtracking, finding out what the original source was, because rest assured, their opponents are gonna tell them in round, wait a second, you just got this from TikTok? That’s not verifiable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the most critical skills that speech and debate teaches students is how to regulate their emotions in high-stress situations. Kyle, a freshman at Palo Alto High School, told me about a time he had to learn this firsthand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> I walked into my last round of the day and i thought i could finally breathe a sigh of relief but what ended up happening was my opponent was very good and she actually is quite well renowned for being a bit mean to her opponents and so the entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> It was really kind of a trial of my ability to stay calm because there were countless times where I wanted to like stand up and scream at her too but I didn’t end up doing that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I just want to emphasize Kyle is 14 years old, and he’s already mastered something that many adults struggle with: how to stay engaged in tough conversations without making them personal. He understands that debating an issue passionately doesn’t mean attacking the person on the other side. Last year’s presidential debates show how badly this lesson is needed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Snipes from presidential debates]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they do not follow the rules of debate in the presidential election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our politicians aren’t exactly setting the best example for constructive discussion. But students? They’re leading the way—debate by debate, tournament by tournament. Speech and Debate is giving them the space to practice not just the fundamentals of argumentation, but the fundamentals of democracy and strong relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There are so many benefits to your students in starting this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Byron R. Arthur. He’s Board President of the National Speech and Debate Association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There’s some studies that have been done, particularly around young people of color or young people that are called, quote, unquote, at risk, where those students who’ve been involved in debate have significantly better academic and social behavioral outcomes than their similarly situated peers who do not. You’re going to see it in your test scores. You will see it in your attendance at school.You will see it in a decrease in suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you’re listening to this and thinking, “I wish I had done debate in high school” or maybe “I wish my school had a debate program,” there’s good news. You don’t need to wait for an official team to get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> if the question is, should we start one? My answer would be, oh, hell, yes! Reach out to the National Speech and Debate Association. Our goal is that every school in this country will one day have a speech and debate program. Every one of them. That’s what we’re aiming for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> And so if a school wants to start it, there’s no excuse. There’s absolutely no excuse. Reach out to the office, reach out to the organization. And we’ve got people there who help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before I went to this tournament, I thought debate was all about being the loudest, the most confident, the quickest on your feet. But after watching these students, I realized it’s actually about curiosity, the ability to hold two ideas in your head at once. The skill of truly listening. That’s something we could all use a little more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This episode would not have been possible without Palo Alto High School: Kyle Hietala, Tessa, Motoko, Kyle the student and Holden. Thank you to Priya Garcia and Students at Leeland. Thank you to student at Archbishop Midi and Nueva, including Hannah. Thank you Byron R. Arthur\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Marnette Federis and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick, Seth Samuel is our sound designer, Jen Chien is our head of podcasts, Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Holly Kernan is KQED’s chief content officer. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jessica Lifshitz noticed a shift in the writing stamina of her fifth graders in recent years. Students weren’t connecting to text-heavy personal narratives in the way that they used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She couldn’t pinpoint the reason for this steady decline in writing stamina, but the disconnect was clear. “Our kids are just having a harder time writing longer pieces compared to what they used to be able to do,” said Lifshitz, who has been teaching for 21 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Looking at examples of writing and storytelling is an important element of building students’ literacy and writing skills. Since her students were struggling with the existing material, she decided to do something different: have her students rely on themselves and their voices for that narrative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last fall, Lifshitz decided to introduce the first writing unit of the year using “\u003ca href=\"https://themoth.org/\">The Moth\u003c/a>,” the popular podcast, public radio program and event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students spent six weeks listening to, watching, developing, writing and eventually recording their own stories. The unit was a success; it sparked the young readers’ and writers’ storytelling abilities and offered lessons in empathy, courage and multi-modal literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We certainly practice [responding to prompts about short readings] in other ways, but I also wanted to just bring the joy of storytelling back to kids,” said Lifshitz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an age where writing in school is often focused on fulfilling standardized test requirements, personal narrative writing units can offer a more personalized approach to literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Personal Narrative Unit\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lifshitz starts the unit by introducing her students to examples of personal narratives from The Moth’s archives. The fifth graders then sample more of the pre-approved stories on their own. As the students listened to the stories, watched the videos and read the transcripts, they worked on annotating the text and answered questions like: What is this story about? How can this story help others?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then students brainstormed stories from their own lives and shared these stories with their peers. Lifshitz said the energy from her students during the brainstorming was palpable and resulted in stories with titles like, “When Petsitting Goes Wrong,” “The Hardest Math Problem” and “Grandpa and Grandma Day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once each student landed on a story they wanted to develop further, they mapped them out using a graphic organizer and studied four storytelling strategies. “Snapshots” describe in detail things that could be seen; “Thought-shots” describe the thoughts and emotions that the writer was experiencing; “Exploding important moments” magnified significant parts of the story; And “Adding in reflection” encouraged students to share a lesson that their story could teach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, Lifshitz reflected on her own journey using The Moth in our latest episode of the MindShift Podcast. She describes the community of teachers she developed as she started sharing her own teaching stories with the world, and the difference it made in reigniting her excitement with teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As my voice found an audience, as our stories formed the basis for a strong community, my teaching began to change and I began to grow, and writing was such a huge part of that for me,” Lifshitz said in the podcast. “Maybe that is why storytelling is so important to me, because it was this storytelling that allowed me to connect with audiences, to develop community, to be challenged, to be exposed to others in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8799077194\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Moth Model\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Lifshitz developed her own unit, \u003ca href=\"https://themoth.org/the-moths-education-program\">The Moth has a curriculum for K-12 teachers\u003c/a> who are a part of their Teacher’s Lounge program. The Moth also hosts in-person afterschool and summer programs for teens, as well as virtual workshops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s rare for teens to find a space where they are free to tell their own stories, uninterrupted, for five minutes “unless you’re talking to the internet in a void,” said Ana Stern, The Moth’s senior manager of education. At the end of the eight-week sessions, the teens share their stories for the whole group. The “slam,” as they call it, is also recorded. The recordings are given to each student and they get to decide what they want to do with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some teens perform their story at the slam and never look at the recording again, said Stern, and that’s okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Stern, building a community comes first because storytelling can be a vulnerable experience. “We really spend a lot of time concentrating on building as brave and as safe a space as possible,” she said. And the program encourages students to lead with curiosity and withhold judgement when giving peer-to-peer feedback, she continued. Often, by the end of the eight-week program Stern hears feedback from students like, “I never thought my story would matter” and “I never thought I had anything to say.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Through the workshop, they’re realizing not only do they have something to say, but they have folks who want to hear them as well,” said Stern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8799077194\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung, and with me today is MindShift reporter Marlena Jackson-Retondo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Hi, Ki.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Marlena. So you have a story today that’s about writing, but it’s really about something else. Tell us more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’m here to tell you about a teacher named Jessica Lifshitz. Jessica has been teaching for two decades, but over time, she began to notice a shift in the writing stamina of her fifth graders. They were petering out and not really interested in writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Struggling with student engagement, that sounds like a really familiar problem teachers have, especially post pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Yeah, students weren’t connecting to traditional writing prompts for personal narratives in the way that they used to. Like how did the student spend their summer? What was their favorite memory? Something was missing, both from the text prompts and the student assignments, so she out an idea from the moth. In the moth, adults perform their stories in front of a live audience, usually about three stories per episode, and these stories are grouped by themes like timeless love, football, and grocery trips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jess’s students read their moth-style stories about fifth grade stuff, with titles like When Pet Sitting Goes Wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker: \u003c/strong>When I got into the backyard, I couldn’t find the pit bull. I was just like, oh my god, oh god, oh my God, oh God, Oh my God.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo\u003c/strong>: Grandpa and grandma day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker: \u003c/strong>Grandma always makes the best lunches. Cucumbers, mango, watermelon, tuna, croissants, grapes. I would put it all on my plate and start making food monsters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo\u003c/strong>: And the hardest math problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker:\u003c/strong> Once, when I was doing math, my teacher introduced me to an indescribably hard math problem. If my head had a fuse, like where a bomb would be, it would blow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We’ll tell you why Jessica wanted to do this after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer: \u003c/strong>Support for MindShift comes from Landmark College. Landmark college’s fully online certificate in learning differences and neurodiversity provides educators with research-based skills and strategies that improve learning outcomes for neurodivergent students. Earn up to 15 graduate level credits and specialize in one of the following areas, post-secondary disability services, executive function, or autism on campus or online. Learn more at landmark.edu slash certificate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Teacher Jessica Lifshitz does something special in her classroom. Instead of having her students respond to boring writing prompts on paper, she has them tell stories about their lives to each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay Marlena, that sounds great. So what’s the real reason Jess has her students do this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Well, I thought we’d get a little meta, so I asked Jess Lifshitz to do something a little different for you, our listeners. I asked just to tell the story of why she came to teach her students about narrative storytelling all of the month. She performed her piece in front of a tiny audience live near Chicago. Please welcome Jess Lifshitz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lifshitz:\u003c/strong> My students are storytellers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their stories fill the spaces in which we learn. And when I think of my storytellers, I think of one student in particular. She is a master storyteller and her name is Lucy. Every morning we begin our days with a check-in question, a quick way to ease into our morning, a way for everyone to have their voice heard before we dig into the harder work of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The questions are simple. What is the thing you are most proud of or what is your biggest fear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Lucy, she turns every answer into an adventure. Like the time when the question asked about your scariest moment. And Lucy launched into the ordeal that ensued when her dog ran away and she searched her entire neighborhood to find her only to return home and find her dog waiting for her in the backyard. Or the time she was answering a question about the worst injury you’ve ever had and it turned into a five minute retelling. Or the time she was wrapped in a mermaid blanket and turned over in her bed and fell directly onto her humidifier, smacking her face and leaving her with a permanent scar on her cheek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is rarely a day that goes by where she doesn’t give us all a good story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now I’ve been a teacher for more than 20 years. In those 20 years, I have heard my share of childhood adventures told through the dramatic voices of my students. But in those 20 years, I have also had to read the often dry words of those same students as they write in response to the boring prompts that we are required to assign from time to time. You know the kind. Prompts like, ‘What is something you did this summer?’ Or ‘What is an important moment you spent with someone you love?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t know what it is, but something about those prompts just sucks the soul out of a story. All that heart, all that voice that students like Lucy naturally pour into their stories seems to disappear when they are asked to write those same stories out for an assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And after 20 years of watching the joy slip out of a story, I decided that I needed to do something to try to recapture the energy that filled my students’ stories when they were not writing for an an assignment, I wanted their classroom writing to be filled with the same kind of energy that filled every one of Lucy’s stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I began to wrestle with how to bring this joy back to my students and to their stories, I started to think about my own history with writing. When I was a kid, I never saw myself as a writer. I saw writing as something I had to do, a task that I had complete. But at a certain point in my life, that changed. At some point, writing became a way for me to process the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Writing brought me peace. Writing became so much more than a task. It became a way to connect with myself and with others. Writing become a way for me to form community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So when did that happen? For me, that transformation occurred when I started to write about my life as a fifth grade literacy teacher. This was in the days when the internet was a kinder place, when blogging wasn’t a career, when we weren’t worried about being influencers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this amazing thing happened through my writing. In a time when I felt isolated as a teacher, stagnant and bored with the teaching I was doing, I found others who opened up a whole new world for me through the sharing of their stories. I read the stories of others and they inspired me to think about teaching in a whole way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As my voice found an audience, as our stories formed the basis for a strong community, my teaching began to change and I began to grow. And writing was such a huge part of that for me. Maybe that is why storytelling is so important to me, because it was this storytelling that allowed me to connect with audiences, to develop community, to be challenged, to be exposed to others in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was fine until I learned what else was out there. And then I became better because of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is what I wanted for my students. I wanted my students to see storytelling as a way to connect with others. As a way to feel less alone in this world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I started to think about how to cultivate the same kind of experience for my students. And I kept thinking about the role that an audience plays in our storytelling. When our stories have a place to land, a place where they matter and can cause others to see the world in a new or different way, that is when our stories feel the most worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in all those boring writing prompts, the only audience my students saw for their stories was me, their teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I needed to find a way to give them an audience beyond just me and to make their stories matter. And as I started to think about telling stories for an audience, my mind began to wander to one of my favorite public radio podcasts, the Moth Radio Hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How many times did I sat in my car at the end of a long day needing to hear the end of a Moth radio hour story? Sometimes those driveway moments were filled with laughter and sometimes with tears, but every one of those moments had one thing in common, a compelling story told in front of an audience that caused me to feel something in connection with the person telling the story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was those thoughts of the purpose of storytelling and of the Moth radio hour that led me to the realization that this year, my fifth graders and I would start our writing year with our very own Moth story hour. We would find a way to tell our stories, to use our stories to connect us, to learn from one another’s stories and to build our classroom community on the foundation of the stories that we would share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have a lot of hopes for my students and I had a lot hopes of what a Moth Story Hour might be able to do for my student and for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let me share a few of those hopes with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hope number one. In a world where far too much of the writing we ask our students to do in school is connected to the tests that they will take, it is my hope that my students can find a way to use writing to connect us to each other instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hope number two, it is hope that if my students are able to feel the ways in which writing can serve a genuine purpose, that it can make them better, they will see the other benefits of writing on their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And finally, hope number three is really a hope for myself and my fellow educators. In order for our students to be able to feel the ways in which writing can serve these genuine purposes, we as educators must have the freedom to craft for our student the kinds of writing experiences that cultivate those possibilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for me and for my fifth grade students, the Moth story hour was just that kind of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That was Jess Lifshitz, a fifth grade teacher near Chicago. When I talked with her earlier this year, she said that this revamped writing unit not only allowed her students to connect with their own stories, but also help them develop empathy for one another. And who doesn’t love that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Sounds like a happy ending. Thanks Marlena for sharing that story with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>That was MindShift reporter Marlena Jackson-Retondo. We’ll bring you more ideas and innovations from experts in education and beyond. Hit follow on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss a thing. The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nima Gobier, Marlena Jackson- Retondo, and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, and Maha Sanad. MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students spent six weeks listening to, watching, developing, writing and eventually recording their own stories. The unit was a success; it sparked the young readers’ and writers’ storytelling abilities and offered lessons in empathy, courage and multi-modal literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We certainly practice [responding to prompts about short readings] in other ways, but I also wanted to just bring the joy of storytelling back to kids,” said Lifshitz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In an age where writing in school is often focused on fulfilling standardized test requirements, personal narrative writing units can offer a more personalized approach to literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Personal Narrative Unit\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lifshitz starts the unit by introducing her students to examples of personal narratives from The Moth’s archives. The fifth graders then sample more of the pre-approved stories on their own. As the students listened to the stories, watched the videos and read the transcripts, they worked on annotating the text and answered questions like: What is this story about? How can this story help others?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then students brainstormed stories from their own lives and shared these stories with their peers. Lifshitz said the energy from her students during the brainstorming was palpable and resulted in stories with titles like, “When Petsitting Goes Wrong,” “The Hardest Math Problem” and “Grandpa and Grandma Day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once each student landed on a story they wanted to develop further, they mapped them out using a graphic organizer and studied four storytelling strategies. “Snapshots” describe in detail things that could be seen; “Thought-shots” describe the thoughts and emotions that the writer was experiencing; “Exploding important moments” magnified significant parts of the story; And “Adding in reflection” encouraged students to share a lesson that their story could teach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, Lifshitz reflected on her own journey using The Moth in our latest episode of the MindShift Podcast. She describes the community of teachers she developed as she started sharing her own teaching stories with the world, and the difference it made in reigniting her excitement with teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As my voice found an audience, as our stories formed the basis for a strong community, my teaching began to change and I began to grow, and writing was such a huge part of that for me,” Lifshitz said in the podcast. “Maybe that is why storytelling is so important to me, because it was this storytelling that allowed me to connect with audiences, to develop community, to be challenged, to be exposed to others in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8799077194\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Moth Model\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Lifshitz developed her own unit, \u003ca href=\"https://themoth.org/the-moths-education-program\">The Moth has a curriculum for K-12 teachers\u003c/a> who are a part of their Teacher’s Lounge program. The Moth also hosts in-person afterschool and summer programs for teens, as well as virtual workshops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s rare for teens to find a space where they are free to tell their own stories, uninterrupted, for five minutes “unless you’re talking to the internet in a void,” said Ana Stern, The Moth’s senior manager of education. At the end of the eight-week sessions, the teens share their stories for the whole group. The “slam,” as they call it, is also recorded. The recordings are given to each student and they get to decide what they want to do with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some teens perform their story at the slam and never look at the recording again, said Stern, and that’s okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Stern, building a community comes first because storytelling can be a vulnerable experience. “We really spend a lot of time concentrating on building as brave and as safe a space as possible,” she said. And the program encourages students to lead with curiosity and withhold judgement when giving peer-to-peer feedback, she continued. Often, by the end of the eight-week program Stern hears feedback from students like, “I never thought my story would matter” and “I never thought I had anything to say.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Through the workshop, they’re realizing not only do they have something to say, but they have folks who want to hear them as well,” said Stern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8799077194\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung, and with me today is MindShift reporter Marlena Jackson-Retondo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Hi, Ki.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, Marlena. So you have a story today that’s about writing, but it’s really about something else. Tell us more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’m here to tell you about a teacher named Jessica Lifshitz. Jessica has been teaching for two decades, but over time, she began to notice a shift in the writing stamina of her fifth graders. They were petering out and not really interested in writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Struggling with student engagement, that sounds like a really familiar problem teachers have, especially post pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Yeah, students weren’t connecting to traditional writing prompts for personal narratives in the way that they used to. Like how did the student spend their summer? What was their favorite memory? Something was missing, both from the text prompts and the student assignments, so she out an idea from the moth. In the moth, adults perform their stories in front of a live audience, usually about three stories per episode, and these stories are grouped by themes like timeless love, football, and grocery trips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jess’s students read their moth-style stories about fifth grade stuff, with titles like When Pet Sitting Goes Wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker: \u003c/strong>When I got into the backyard, I couldn’t find the pit bull. I was just like, oh my god, oh god, oh my God, oh God, Oh my God.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo\u003c/strong>: Grandpa and grandma day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker: \u003c/strong>Grandma always makes the best lunches. Cucumbers, mango, watermelon, tuna, croissants, grapes. I would put it all on my plate and start making food monsters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo\u003c/strong>: And the hardest math problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker:\u003c/strong> Once, when I was doing math, my teacher introduced me to an indescribably hard math problem. If my head had a fuse, like where a bomb would be, it would blow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>We’ll tell you why Jessica wanted to do this after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer: \u003c/strong>Support for MindShift comes from Landmark College. Landmark college’s fully online certificate in learning differences and neurodiversity provides educators with research-based skills and strategies that improve learning outcomes for neurodivergent students. Earn up to 15 graduate level credits and specialize in one of the following areas, post-secondary disability services, executive function, or autism on campus or online. Learn more at landmark.edu slash certificate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Teacher Jessica Lifshitz does something special in her classroom. Instead of having her students respond to boring writing prompts on paper, she has them tell stories about their lives to each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Okay Marlena, that sounds great. So what’s the real reason Jess has her students do this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Well, I thought we’d get a little meta, so I asked Jess Lifshitz to do something a little different for you, our listeners. I asked just to tell the story of why she came to teach her students about narrative storytelling all of the month. She performed her piece in front of a tiny audience live near Chicago. Please welcome Jess Lifshitz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lifshitz:\u003c/strong> My students are storytellers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their stories fill the spaces in which we learn. And when I think of my storytellers, I think of one student in particular. She is a master storyteller and her name is Lucy. Every morning we begin our days with a check-in question, a quick way to ease into our morning, a way for everyone to have their voice heard before we dig into the harder work of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The questions are simple. What is the thing you are most proud of or what is your biggest fear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Lucy, she turns every answer into an adventure. Like the time when the question asked about your scariest moment. And Lucy launched into the ordeal that ensued when her dog ran away and she searched her entire neighborhood to find her only to return home and find her dog waiting for her in the backyard. Or the time she was answering a question about the worst injury you’ve ever had and it turned into a five minute retelling. Or the time she was wrapped in a mermaid blanket and turned over in her bed and fell directly onto her humidifier, smacking her face and leaving her with a permanent scar on her cheek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is rarely a day that goes by where she doesn’t give us all a good story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now I’ve been a teacher for more than 20 years. In those 20 years, I have heard my share of childhood adventures told through the dramatic voices of my students. But in those 20 years, I have also had to read the often dry words of those same students as they write in response to the boring prompts that we are required to assign from time to time. You know the kind. Prompts like, ‘What is something you did this summer?’ Or ‘What is an important moment you spent with someone you love?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t know what it is, but something about those prompts just sucks the soul out of a story. All that heart, all that voice that students like Lucy naturally pour into their stories seems to disappear when they are asked to write those same stories out for an assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And after 20 years of watching the joy slip out of a story, I decided that I needed to do something to try to recapture the energy that filled my students’ stories when they were not writing for an an assignment, I wanted their classroom writing to be filled with the same kind of energy that filled every one of Lucy’s stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I began to wrestle with how to bring this joy back to my students and to their stories, I started to think about my own history with writing. When I was a kid, I never saw myself as a writer. I saw writing as something I had to do, a task that I had complete. But at a certain point in my life, that changed. At some point, writing became a way for me to process the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Writing brought me peace. Writing became so much more than a task. It became a way to connect with myself and with others. Writing become a way for me to form community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So when did that happen? For me, that transformation occurred when I started to write about my life as a fifth grade literacy teacher. This was in the days when the internet was a kinder place, when blogging wasn’t a career, when we weren’t worried about being influencers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this amazing thing happened through my writing. In a time when I felt isolated as a teacher, stagnant and bored with the teaching I was doing, I found others who opened up a whole new world for me through the sharing of their stories. I read the stories of others and they inspired me to think about teaching in a whole way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As my voice found an audience, as our stories formed the basis for a strong community, my teaching began to change and I began to grow. And writing was such a huge part of that for me. Maybe that is why storytelling is so important to me, because it was this storytelling that allowed me to connect with audiences, to develop community, to be challenged, to be exposed to others in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was fine until I learned what else was out there. And then I became better because of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is what I wanted for my students. I wanted my students to see storytelling as a way to connect with others. As a way to feel less alone in this world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I started to think about how to cultivate the same kind of experience for my students. And I kept thinking about the role that an audience plays in our storytelling. When our stories have a place to land, a place where they matter and can cause others to see the world in a new or different way, that is when our stories feel the most worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in all those boring writing prompts, the only audience my students saw for their stories was me, their teacher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I needed to find a way to give them an audience beyond just me and to make their stories matter. And as I started to think about telling stories for an audience, my mind began to wander to one of my favorite public radio podcasts, the Moth Radio Hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How many times did I sat in my car at the end of a long day needing to hear the end of a Moth radio hour story? Sometimes those driveway moments were filled with laughter and sometimes with tears, but every one of those moments had one thing in common, a compelling story told in front of an audience that caused me to feel something in connection with the person telling the story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was those thoughts of the purpose of storytelling and of the Moth radio hour that led me to the realization that this year, my fifth graders and I would start our writing year with our very own Moth story hour. We would find a way to tell our stories, to use our stories to connect us, to learn from one another’s stories and to build our classroom community on the foundation of the stories that we would share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I have a lot of hopes for my students and I had a lot hopes of what a Moth Story Hour might be able to do for my student and for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let me share a few of those hopes with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hope number one. In a world where far too much of the writing we ask our students to do in school is connected to the tests that they will take, it is my hope that my students can find a way to use writing to connect us to each other instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hope number two, it is hope that if my students are able to feel the ways in which writing can serve a genuine purpose, that it can make them better, they will see the other benefits of writing on their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And finally, hope number three is really a hope for myself and my fellow educators. In order for our students to be able to feel the ways in which writing can serve these genuine purposes, we as educators must have the freedom to craft for our student the kinds of writing experiences that cultivate those possibilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for me and for my fifth grade students, the Moth story hour was just that kind of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That was Jess Lifshitz, a fifth grade teacher near Chicago. When I talked with her earlier this year, she said that this revamped writing unit not only allowed her students to connect with their own stories, but also help them develop empathy for one another. And who doesn’t love that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Sounds like a happy ending. Thanks Marlena for sharing that story with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>That was MindShift reporter Marlena Jackson-Retondo. We’ll bring you more ideas and innovations from experts in education and beyond. Hit follow on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss a thing. The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nima Gobier, Marlena Jackson- Retondo, and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, and Maha Sanad. MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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},
"radiolab": {
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"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
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