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Mina Kim: Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Tucker Carlson’s break with President Trump is prompting myriad questions and opinion pieces about its sincerity and significance. Here’s what started it all: Carlson, on his podcast last week, told his brother Buckley that after the Iran war, he regrets supporting the president and is tormented by it.
Tucker Carlson (clip): We’re implicated in this for sure. Yes. It’s not enough to say, well, I changed my mind or, like, oh, this is bad, I’m out. In very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now. So I do think it’s a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. We’ll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And I want to say I’m sorry for misleading people—it was not intentional. That’s all I’ll say.
Mina Kim: Listeners, your reaction? What do you make of Tucker Carlson’s apology and disavowal of Trump? You can tell us at 866-733-6786, on our social channels, or by email at forum@kqed.org.
Jason Zengerle is a New Yorker staff writer and author of a recent biography of Tucker Carlson called Hated by All the Right People. He joins me now. Jason, thanks for coming on.
Jason Zengerle: Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.
Mina Kim: First, what did you make of these remarks when you heard them?
Jason Zengerle: I was surprised, but also not surprised. They reminded me a lot of how Tucker has talked about the Iraq War, which was a big inflection point in his career. He supported the war, had some doubts going in, suppressed those doubts, and then became one of the first conservative pundits to turn against it.
Not only did he disavow his support, but he also wrestled with why he got it wrong. That led to a significant ideological shift—toward a more anti-interventionist, isolationist foreign policy, along with more restrictionist views on immigration and opposition to free trade, similar to Pat Buchanan’s positions.
The story he tells about his current views often traces back to Iraq. And I think he’s doing something similar now—using similar language about being “tormented” and starting to construct a new narrative for himself. I’m a bit surprised by how forthright he’s been in criticizing Trump. I thought he might be more cautious. But it’s not the first time he’s changed his mind—or broken with Trump.
Back in 2020, during Trump’s presidency—after COVID and amid the Black Lives Matter protests—Tucker privately told people he was done with Trump. Even publicly, if you read between the lines of his Fox show, you could see that shift.
Mina Kim: So there’s some sincerity in his comments, especially given his long-standing opposition to U.S. involvement in foreign wars. But you also said you were surprised by how direct he was. In what ways? Do you think his apology—saying he misled people and feels tormented—is sincere?
Jason Zengerle: It’s hard to judge sincerity. What I meant is that he’s being very absolute—he’s not leaving much wiggle room. In that sense, I do think he’s genuinely angry at Trump and feels betrayed.
At the same time, with Tucker, you always have to consider the bigger picture. I think what he’s saying is genuine, but it’s also a political move. He’s positioning himself for something.
Mina Kim: Let’s bring in a caller. Vincent in Sacramento, you’re on.
Vincent (caller): Good morning, Mina. Thank you for taking my call. I’ll keep it short. I don’t think Tucker Carlson can be trusted at all. I’m just speculating, but I think in the future he might want to run for president or something, and he needs to distance himself now to have any chance at redemption. That’s all I wanted to say.
Mina Kim: Thanks, Vincent. Jason, what are you hearing about that possibility?
Jason Zengerle: I agree with that line of thinking. In the past, when people asked if Tucker might run for president, I’d say it was conceivable, but not something he’d always wanted. He’s not like Bill Clinton, who seemed driven toward the presidency from early on.
I thought the only scenarios where he might run were if someone like JD Vance—who aligns closely with him—changed course ideologically, or if Tucker concluded Vance couldn’t win. And I didn’t think that would happen before 2032.
But the Iran war has changed that calculus. The way Tucker is leaning into his criticism of Trump suggests he could be positioning himself for a 2028 run. He would likely frame himself as the true heir to MAGA, arguing it’s an ideological movement centered on things like anti-interventionism.
The counterargument is that MAGA is more of a personality-driven movement centered on Trump himself. Tucker may be testing which of those is true.
Mina Kim: So he’s betting there’s a movement beyond Trump that he could lead. I also want to ask about how far he’s willing to go in criticizing Trump’s character. He’s hinted at concerns but hasn’t gone all the way. Is that deliberate?
Jason Zengerle: Yes. He’s had private doubts about Trump’s character for a long time. Even during Trump’s presidency, Tucker supported his policies but avoided fully embracing him as a person. Off air, he kept some distance, likely because he believed getting too close to Trump could be damaging.
That changed after he left Fox and aligned more closely with Trump. But those underlying concerns about Trump’s character have always been there.
Now he’s voicing some of them, but he’s not rejecting Trump entirely. His criticism is focused mainly on foreign policy—especially Iran and, more broadly, Israel. He’s constructing a narrative that Trump is being influenced or constrained, which veers into conspiracy theory territory.
Mina Kim: Right, and he’s also suggested Trump is being influenced by neoconservatives. Some listeners point out that he hasn’t criticized other aspects of Trump’s presidency—for example, January 6.
Jason Zengerle: In fact, he’s criticized Trump from the right on January 6, saying he wasn’t aggressive enough. If you listen to the full podcast interview, not just the widely shared clip, he continues to praise Trump on many fronts. It’s really this one issue—foreign policy—that’s driving the break.
Mina Kim: Before we go to break, why does this matter? What’s the scope of Carlson’s influence right now?
Jason Zengerle: He has a substantial following within the MAGA universe. After Trump, he may have one of the largest audiences—though there’s still a huge gap between them.
Others have tried to break with Trump and failed. That may happen here too. But Tucker is one of the most prominent, skilled, and influential figures to attempt it, which makes this worth watching.
Mina Kim: We’re talking with Jason Zengerle, staff writer at The New Yorker. His recent book is Hated by All the Right People: Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind.
We’ll have more with Jason and with you, our listeners, right after the break. Stay with us. I’m Mina Kim.
