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Mina Kim: Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. The first kids’ book I ever read by Mo Willems was Knuffle Bunny, after my daughter was born. It’s all about how little Trixie leaves her beloved bunny stuffy at the laundromat and can’t tell her oblivious dad about it because she can’t talk yet. So instead, she bawls, goes boneless, until they arrive home, and Trixie’s mom immediately realizes the bunny toy is missing.
The delightful story made me go in search of more Willems books — and there are a lot of them. You may know about the Pigeon who wants to drive the bus or does not want to take a bath, about best friends Elephant and Piggie, or the naked mole rat who just wants to get dressed.
Willems has also taken his stories to the stage and screen, with two performances Sunday at SF Sketchfest and a Paramount+ series later this year.
So listeners, do you have a favorite Mo Willems story? Mo, wonderful to have you on Forum. Welcome.
Mo Willems: Hiya, Mina. It’s really great to be here.
Mina Kim: Yeah. I mentioned Knuffle Bunny not only because it was my introduction to the Willems universe — and incidentally, my daughter was actually very attached to a bunny toy at that time —
Mo Willems: Excellent.
Mina Kim: — but also because it’s characteristic of how all your books entertain the adult as much as the kid, it feels like.
Mo Willems: Oh, that’s very kind. You know, I see the grown-ups — well, basically, I write for people who aren’t embarrassed yet. And having a child is a great chance to lose embarrassment, because embarrassment is a learned disease. Teenagers are dying of embarrassment all the time.
So I’m trying to make sure that you, as a grown-up, are enjoying yourself, because it’s a special time being with your kid and reading.
Mina Kim: And when you say embarrassment, you mean it’s a special time being with your kid and reading, and you can be very expressive, act out the stories, without worrying about feeling embarrassed — because you’re with a child who has no embarrassment at all.
Mo Willems: Well, exactly. It’s a key to being silly again. And a lot of the joy in life is the ability to be silly.
I think parents, particularly new parents, get very excited by all kinds of new things, but one is the opportunity to be very silly, both in private and in public. If you’re hanging out with a kid, you really get to be ridiculous in ways you can’t if you’re not.
Mina Kim: And obviously that really informed the way you approached the Pigeon books, right? This is the character that catapulted you onto the children’s book scene. One of the things about those books is how incredibly interactive they are, where the kid — and the adult too — is responding to the Pigeon.
Mo Willems: Yes, absolutely. I don’t really want my books to be read. I want them to be played. My job is to write 49 percent of the book and let the audience create the meaning.
And if that’s yelling “no” at the top of your lungs, that’s great. Rock on.
Mina Kim: Is that one of the things you really landed on as key to entertaining the child and parent alike? Some people might think that’s easy to pull off, but it really isn’t.
Mo Willems: No. Look — simple and easy are opposites. I spend most of my time trying to get simple enough.
The Pigeon is one step away from an abstraction. I want all my main characters to be simple enough that a five-year-old can draw them and a grown-up can look at them and say, “Oh, that’s the Pigeon, and that’s what they’re doing.”
So a lot of my work is ultimately reductive. It’s about taking things out rather than putting things in.
Mina Kim: What do you fundamentally feel like you’ve come to understand about children that makes that recipe so successful?
Mo Willems: I think one of the great things is that I don’t understand the world yet. So I’m living in the question and trying more and more to live in the question. And I think that’s a great place to meet kids.
The answers are less interesting to me than the questions. Why are people mean? What does it mean to be a friend? How do you repair a friendship? When should you repair a friendship? Can I drive the bus? Fundamental Greek philosophical questions.
Mina Kim: How did your time at Sesame Street influence the way you think about that — the question-asking, but also interacting with children through story?
Mo Willems: I was very lucky to be hired by Sesame Street when I was very young, just starting out. At the time, I didn’t think about writing for kids. I wanted to write for my generation.
What I learned there was respect for kids, respect for brevity, and the fact that a puppeteer can make anything funnier. For me, it was like going to grad school. We did a lot of child development seminars and things like that.
One thing I was frustrated by at the time — and things have changed — was that we didn’t approach failure realistically enough. Characters weren’t allowed to fail; they had to immediately be great at what they did.
So when I got the chance to make my own TV shows and books, I was intent on letting my characters be like kids — and like myself — and fail more often.
Mina Kim: Why do you think there was resistance to that at Sesame Street?
Mo Willems: It was a mindset at the time — a mindset of success. All the characters could play an instrument and play it well.
As a grown-up who couldn’t play an instrument well, I was more interested in the character who was trying to learn and judging themselves when they couldn’t do it right.
Mina Kim: And why is it so important for children to be exposed to that?
Mo Willems: Because they’re human beings.
Mina Kim: Yeah.
Mo Willems: This is the world. We’re stumbling into various failures all the time. To be afraid of that, or to pretend it isn’t happening, doesn’t serve anyone — certainly not reality.
Mina Kim: I’ve heard you say the Pigeon character showed up one day while you were trying to write a great picture book and said, “Don’t write this. It’s not any good. You should write about me.”
Mo Willems: Absolutely. That’s true.
Mina Kim: What were you writing that wasn’t very good?
Mo Willems: I was writing answers.
Mina Kim: Ah.
Mo Willems: I was trying to tell people how to be, which is a colossal error, because I know nothing.
Sometimes people think the Pigeon is just obnoxious, but the Pigeon is unheard. And I don’t know that all children know they are seeable — that they are seen.
I want my characters to stop, look out at the page, and look at the reader and say, visually, “You are seeable. You have value.”
Mina Kim: Was there fear about putting out something so different?
Mo Willems: No. It was great. You pick the animals nobody else wants.
The shape of a book tells you what it’s going to be. A wide book is usually about a place. A tall book is usually about a character.
The Pigeon book is square. It’s like an album. It’s rock and roll. It speaks directly to the audience. It looks like chicken scratch. No background. Everything you’re not supposed to do.
Was I afraid it would fail? No. I was certain it would fail. And that’s why I did it — with the freedom of not caring, except about communicating with people who maybe weren’t being listened to.
Mina Kim: We’re talking with children’s book author and performer Mo Willems. Listeners, what’s your favorite Mo Willems book or character?
Wren on Discord writes, “I’m so excited to hear Mo Willems on the air. When my kids were little, we loved his books. My teens still tell me ‘slop is pig culture.’ Our favorites were probably Knuffle Bunny Too and We Are in a Book!”
Do you want to talk a little about We Are in a Book!?
Mo Willems: Yeah. That one came out of an interview. I’m always taking my characters out to coffee. I have an idea garden.
Someone asked, “What do Elephant and Piggie do for a living?” And I said, “They work in books.”
Then I realized — if the interviewer didn’t know that, maybe Elephant and Piggie didn’t either. And once I knew that, I could just watch them react.
Mina Kim: And what’s great is how Gerald the elephant and Piggie play off each other — Gerald is careful and anxious, and Piggie is playful and impulsive.
Mo Willems: Yeah. Elephant Gerald is named after my favorite singer. He’s panicked. Piggie sees the joy of a wider community.
I relate to both. Sometimes I’m terrified by that idea, and sometimes I embrace it.
Mina Kim: We’ve been talking with Mo Willems, children’s book author, performer, and three-time Caldecott honoree.
We’ll have more with him — and with you listeners — after the break. Stay with us. This is Forum. I’m Mina Kim.
