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Mina Kim: Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Even before the government shutdown, more than 150,000 federal workers accepted buyouts, with this week being their last. The massive exodus of civil servants is being called by government experts a damaging loss of institutional expertise — or a brain drain — that will be hard to reverse.
But that brain drain extends far beyond the federal workforce. New data suggests fewer students and researchers are coming to the U.S. to work or study, while American scholars and professionals are looking outside the country.
This hour, we look at how and why it’s happening and what the broader impacts could be. And listeners, are you considering leaving the U.S. for school or work?
Joining me first is Sonya Pfeiffer, a civil rights and criminal defense attorney who started the process of moving with her family to Canada at the end of President Trump’s first term. Welcome to Forum, Sonya.
Sonya Pfeiffer: Hi. Good afternoon — and good morning to you.
Mina Kim: That’s right, because you’re in Canada. Can you walk us through your and your husband’s decision to leave the U.S.? He’s also a high-profile criminal defense attorney. What were the concerns that made you want to leave?
Sonya Pfeiffer: Sure. In the summer of 2020, I think everyone remembers we had no idea how the election was going to turn out. At the time, our daughter was ten. We kept her home even when many schools reopened in the fall because we had high-risk individuals around us and didn’t want to put her in a position of possibly bringing COVID home and harming or killing someone.
I was essentially homeschooling her while also doing my law work. We had many conversations about what she was learning and how she was absorbing the world around her. I often tell the story of one dinner table conversation where she said to us, “I hate America.” It still takes my breath away.
The only thing I care about in raising a child is that she does good in the world — and in order to do that, she has to see good. But her examples of leadership and civic engagement after four years of Trump were not what we hoped they would be. Even though we had a very “woke” conversation — and I don’t think that’s a dirty word; I prefer to be awake — she said, “Don’t you know that all I’ve known is hate?”
So we began to think seriously about a plan B. Fortunately, my husband had given a speech to the Criminal Lawyers’ Association of Ontario in 2018. We reached out to contacts there, and very quickly opportunities opened up. The law firm where we’re now both associated, Brody Thorning, welcomed us. The University of Toronto invited us to teach trial advocacy. My daughter got into an excellent IB school with an international student body.
Even after Biden was elected, we thought, let’s give it a go. Then January 6th happened in 2021, and we felt reassured we’d made the right choice. We didn’t imagine things would unfold as they have, but we’re grateful to have roots in Canada.
Mina Kim: Sonya, are you seeing other people in the U.S. wanting to do what you did? Are friends or family reaching out to learn how you made the move?
Sonya Pfeiffer: Absolutely. For years, people have joked, “If this happens, I’m moving to Canada.” But now it’s real. I’ve had at least nine friends reach out for information on how to move here. I referred them to my immigration lawyer, who is busier than she’s ever been.
Just this past weekend, I got another call from someone considering moving for personal reasons. For families with LGBTQ members, especially those who are trans, these are serious issues. And it’s not just lawyers. I’ve spoken with artists, educators, and writers.
I will say that for attorneys like me — criminal defense and civil rights lawyers — I don’t think most of us will uproot entirely. I’m grateful to be in Canada so my daughter can see a different way of existing and communicating. But I still very much consider myself part of the resistance in the U.S. Lawyers will be the last ones standing here. So this move isn’t about turning away from the U.S. — it’s about creating an opportunity for my family while still being able to fight for the rule of law and constitutional values that guide this country.
Mina Kim: Let me bring listeners into the conversation. Are you or someone you know considering leaving the country for school or work? Tell us why. Maybe some of Sonya’s reasons resonate with you.
You can email forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads — we’re @KQEDforum. Or call us at 866-733-6786.
I want to bring in Sarah Willcox, deputy director of Scholars at Risk. Sarah, welcome to Forum.
Sarah Willcox: Thank you very much.
Mina Kim: Are you seeing an uptick in U.S. scholars wanting to explore opportunities outside the country as well?
Sarah Willcox: I’d say it’s anecdotal. We’re hearing case by case from scholars and researchers across the country. But it’s a trend that mirrors global issues.
Scholars at Risk has tracked threats to academic freedom, to individual scholars, and to institutional autonomy worldwide since 2000. Scholars are often threatened for what they say, what they stand for, or their status in their communities. We’ve helped them find positions around the world where they can safely continue their work.
Most of these scholars are coming from authoritarian states or conflict zones. They face detention, disappearance, or worse. That’s not what we’re seeing in the U.S. right now — scholars here aren’t facing those extreme threats. But we do see warning signs. When scholars here speak up, challenge ideology, or simply pursue the truth, they’re increasingly targeted. That’s a pattern we recognize from authoritarian regimes.
Just yesterday we released our annual report, Free to Think, which documents attacks on academics worldwide — wrongful imprisonment, forced disappearance, threats to families, violence. While the U.S. is not at that level, the patterns are concerning.
Mina Kim: Yes. I read in the report that attacks on academic freedom shifted after January 2025 — to pressure from the federal government following Donald Trump’s reelection, including efforts to control university admissions, hiring, research, teaching, and disciplinary processes. What fields are you seeing most affected?
Sarah Willcox: It really spans disciplines. Recently, an Afghan scholar at a well-known New York institution lost federal grant funding. He’s an epidemiologist with a stable position, but his funding was revoked. That’s not a physical threat, but it’s a targeted attack nonetheless. We’re seeing that happen to U.S. citizens as well as international scholars based here.
Mina Kim: Can you help us understand how stark this shift is, compared to what the U.S. has historically meant for scholars globally?
Sarah Willcox: Historically, the U.S. was seen as a place to freely pursue truth, exchange ideas, and share work with colleagues and the public. When that’s threatened, it shakes democratic institutions at their foundation.
Even though these issues are more severe elsewhere, it’s important to recognize what’s happening here too — and to stand up against it.
Mina Kim: Listener Casey on Discord writes: I’ve been thinking about leaving the U.S. since 2022. My wife has her Polish passport and everything. We just haven’t quite reached the tipping point. American work culture and how we treat folks in poverty — I don’t see those changing in my lifetime. If I ever go back to research, I’d look to Canada or Western Europe.
We’re talking about America’s brain drain — fewer international students and researchers coming here, while U.S. scholars and professionals are increasingly choosing to work elsewhere. It’s a reversal of a decades-long trend of the U.S. being a magnet for talent from around the globe.
We’re joined by Sarah Willcox, deputy director of Scholars at Risk, and Sonya Pfeiffer, civil rights and criminal defense attorney who moved to Canada. And listeners, are you considering leaving the country for school or work? Were you planning to attend college or do research in the U.S. but changed your mind? Do you work in science and has your funding been affected?
Call us at 866-733-6786, email forum@kqed.org, or find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads @KQEDforum.
More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.
