Sohla El-Waylly Cements Her Starring Role With a Thrilling Debut Cookbook
A New Cookbook Shows That Going Vegan Doesn't Have to Break Your Budget
Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food
How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe
‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin
How to Write Film Music That Stops Time
Oakland Photographer Ashley A. Ross Reflects on Her Religious Upbringing in Debut MoAD Show
A New Outdoor Restaurant Promises Comfort Food and Music — Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond
Nigella Lawson's New Cookbook Leans Into the Pleasure of Home Food
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It’s the classic story of an undervalued woman of color shamelessly confused with the other South Asian woman in the office by her own boss — but onstage at the 92nd Street Y \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sj7L30851Q&ab_channel=LisaPhamFlowers\">for the whole internet to see\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>El-Waylly launched herself out of Bon Appetit and into everywhere else: \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i7fVY596mY&t=152s\">Food 52\u003c/a>, the History Channel, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybNex3XsgFc&t=73s&ab_channel=NYTCooking\">New York Times Cooking channel\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXnlVlkkkxM&ab_channel=BabishCulinaryUniverse\">Babish Culinary Universe\u003c/a> and an HBO series that she co-hosted with actor Dan Levy. Her obvious culinary mastery that doesn’t stop at how to cook something but why you cook it that way — on a chemical level — coupled with her punchy witticisms and flaky salt-of-the-earth sincerity has earned her prime time in the pantheon of unmistakably cool internet personalities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always struggled to learn the way I was \u003ci>supposed\u003c/i> to learn, whether in the high school geography class I had to repeat or in a restaurant kitchen following a chef’s blunt commands,” she writes in the book’s introduction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What emerges from El-Waylly’s candid trove of fumbles and failures is a person who really knows what she’s talking about — who can tell you exactly where you went wrong because she’s been there herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of her San Francisco book tour appearances on January 29 and 30, I talked to El-Waylly about how to host a dinner party that will cure winter blues and what she ate the last time she visited the Bay, as a depressed undergrad over 20 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">********\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OLIVIA CRUZ MAYEDA:\u003c/b> Your new cookbook weaves in guidance and anecdotes that feel resonant in the kitchen and outside it, too. What do you hope people take with them from \u003ci>Start Here\u003c/i> as they move through the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SOHLA EL-WAYLLY: \u003c/b>I think the biggest message is that you’re going to mess up, and it’s going to be okay — that’s the main thing. I think that a lot of times people don’t even try stuff because they’re afraid of failing or just not being good at it. But I think it’s important to remember that everyone’s terrible at everything in the beginning, and you just have to push through that phase of maybe making a lot of bad food, and it will eventually get good. I think that really applies to everything in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px;min-width: 325px\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae/video/7283990481220963626\" data-video-id=\"7283990481220963626\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@sohlae\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@sohlae\u003c/a> Here’s another peek from my cookbook, START HERE! (Have you preordered yet!?) In it, I teach you techniques, so eventually you won’t need recipes any more! Like this method for the best crispy, juicy, seared & braised chicken thighs. Make it like me with salsa verde and zucchini, or make it your own with cauliflower & curry, carrots & bone broth, or however the hell you want! Photos @Laura hi \u003ca title=\"♬ Sweet Dreams - Trinix\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/Sweet-Dreams-6795037315535210498?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ Sweet Dreams – Trinix\u003c/a>\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>[tiktok]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>New York Times\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb> called your cookbook “the new \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Joy of Cooking\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>.” What cookbooks or food personalities most influenced you when you were starting out?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every day after school, I’d watch Jacques Torres. He had this show on PBS called “Desert Circus.” It had a really fun intro, and he’d roll around on roller skates. He did a chocolate sculpture once, and he had all these molds. And then he was like, “Anything can be a mold.” And he grabbed that air conditioner filter and molded chocolate on that, so then I went and I grabbed the filter out of the air conditioner! A lot of people can be a little rigid and, especially with pastry, be like, “You have to get this piping tip,” you know, “and you need this cake pan.” But he showed how you can make things work with what you have. And I feel like that really inspired me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What are you looking forward to during your visit to the Bay Area? Any foods in particular?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, I haven’t been in a really long time, but I went to school at UC Irvine. And I was really depressed. So the thing to do was to just drive to San Francisco all the way up [the Pacific Coast Highway]. And then get clam chowder at, like, five in the morning. I want to go to that pier that I went to and try to get some clam chowder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I first encountered your work when you were still working at Bon Appetit, where you were part of a racial reckoning at the publication but also in food media at large. Do you feel like any meaningful change has happened since then?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It does feel like there’s more diverse voices that are out there now. But I think that the biggest thing — and I don’t even think this has anything to do with anything I did or anything that happened — is just that people have their own platforms now. With social media, the people are picking who gets to be uplifted. I really like that there’s a lot of cool independent creators who I don’t think would have had a huge voice with traditional media. One of my favorite people is — Black Forager is her handle — \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@alexisnikole?lang=en\">Alexis Nicole\u003c/a>. I love her. I learn so much from her videos. And she’s someone that did it completely on her own, and the people picked her. I just love that there’s more and more voices like that because we don’t need the traditional media anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>I\u003c/i> only exist because of the people who support me. I know that. And it’s really heartwarming that I have this support and this really loving community. And it’s also scary because I hope I’m giving them enough, you know what I mean? I totally exist because of individuals who believe in me, not because of one big, faceless corporation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/p/CzKW8Xov-Or/?igsh=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg%3D%3D\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>There’s so much heaviness in the world right now from the Congo to Sudan to Palestine. You signed onto — along with Berkeley chef Samin Nosrat — the \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hospitality-for-humanity.com/\">\u003cb>Hospitality for Humanity\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> pledge, a coalition of food and beverage workers calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, co-organized by another Bay Area chef, Reem Assil. How do you hope food and chefs can play a role in social justice and political organizing?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s tough. I feel like a lot of what happens is people just repost things, which I also was doing for a while, but I stopped because I saw a lot of prominent people who posted misinformation by accident with the best intentions because we’re not journalists, we’re not politicians. It’s easy to not know exactly what’s a real post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think the better way is just to focus on bringing awareness with what we do best, which is food. And I think it’s really important, especially with what’s happening in Palestine, to humanize the people there by just sharing more of their culture. I like talking about the food and celebrating the positive things that are happening over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I love the deep dives into food history and food science that feel like throughlines in your work. Is there anything you’ve been nerding out about recently?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[aside postID='arts_13921460,arts_13919177,arts_13926618']\u003c/span>Well, I’m currently working on my next book. The first one, I knew exactly what I wanted the book to accomplish. So for the next book, I don’t really have a plan, and I’m just letting myself learn about things that are interesting to me, and I’m just cooking stuff that I’m into. So I’ve just really been into princess cake lately. I’ve always seen them, but the ones from the grocery store are usually not very good, if we’re being totally honest. That marzipan is a little stale. But making a fresh one kind of blew me away with how delicious it is. So now I just want to learn more about princess cake and marzipan. I want to be someone where anytime you come over to my house — even if it’s a Tuesday — I made you a princess cake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I’m having a small dinner party tomorrow with a few friends. What’s a menu from recipes in your book that you’d recommend for a vibey but not super high-maintenance dinner to cure our winter blues?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think for appetizers, there’s a shrimp cocktail in the book that’s really fun, and broiled oysters. But most of the time when we have people over, I can’t wrap my head around all that. So I’ll make a quick crudités plate. I love having some crunchy veg before a meal because it’s kind of like palate cleanser vibes. Try radishes and some Asian pear. There’s a ranch fun dip recipe in the book using pistachios — that’s fantastic. So put all the veggies on ice and get a nice glass bowl for the fun dip. People don’t give crudités respect, but you can make it really sexy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the main, maybe make those braised short ribs. You can make them the same day, but they are a lot better if you dry-brine them tonight. And then I really like to serve that with steamed vegetables, like some really nice broccolini and carrots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then dessert: I think you should go for the chocolate pudding pie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>El-Waylly will be signing copies of \u003c/i>Start Here\u003ci> at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/products/sohla-el-waylly-book-signing-start-here-instructions-for-becoming-a-better-cook\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St., San Francisco) at 4 p.m. on January 30, following her \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jccsf.org/event/sohla-el-waylly-start-here/\">\u003ci>sold-out book event\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> at the Jewish Community Center of San Francisco on January 29.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The culinary maverick reflects on transformations in food media, Palestine and her next cookbook. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1706559431,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":31,"wordCount":1892},"headData":{"title":"Sohla El-Waylly Cements Her Starring Role With a Thrilling Debut Cookbook | KQED","description":"The culinary maverick reflects on transformations in food media, Palestine and her next cookbook. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"Sohla El-Waylly Cements Her Starring Role With a Thrilling Debut Cookbook","datePublished":"2024-01-29T20:14:45.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-29T20:17:11.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"source":"Food","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/food","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13951141/sohla-el-waylly-cookbook-start-here-bay-area-interview","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sohla El-Waylly is a culinary maverick of our time: She knows how to deactivate the surface starches of rice for the perfect pilaf, she’s made crudités sexy by sheer force of will and she’s spoken truth to power with lasting impacts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>El-Waylly’s highly-anticipated first cookbook, \u003ci>Start Here: Instructions for Becoming a Better Cook\u003c/i>, is the this-is-just-the-beginning hat tip of a chef who’s quickly won over the hearts of home cooks all over the world — and who’s already planning her next book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in 2020, El-Waylly said she wasn’t being equitably compensated for her work as an assistant food editor at Bon Appetit, a public statement that became a part of a much larger racial reckoning in food media. It also launched \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNnBPM0Y9gU&ab_channel=Natalie\">fan-made supercuts\u003c/a> of every time El-Waylly was called over by white colleagues to temper chocolate or give her expert advice on using masa harina, all uncompensated. It’s the classic story of an undervalued woman of color shamelessly confused with the other South Asian woman in the office by her own boss — but onstage at the 92nd Street Y \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sj7L30851Q&ab_channel=LisaPhamFlowers\">for the whole internet to see\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>El-Waylly launched herself out of Bon Appetit and into everywhere else: \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i7fVY596mY&t=152s\">Food 52\u003c/a>, the History Channel, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybNex3XsgFc&t=73s&ab_channel=NYTCooking\">New York Times Cooking channel\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXnlVlkkkxM&ab_channel=BabishCulinaryUniverse\">Babish Culinary Universe\u003c/a> and an HBO series that she co-hosted with actor Dan Levy. Her obvious culinary mastery that doesn’t stop at how to cook something but why you cook it that way — on a chemical level — coupled with her punchy witticisms and flaky salt-of-the-earth sincerity has earned her prime time in the pantheon of unmistakably cool internet personalities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always struggled to learn the way I was \u003ci>supposed\u003c/i> to learn, whether in the high school geography class I had to repeat or in a restaurant kitchen following a chef’s blunt commands,” she writes in the book’s introduction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What emerges from El-Waylly’s candid trove of fumbles and failures is a person who really knows what she’s talking about — who can tell you exactly where you went wrong because she’s been there herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of her San Francisco book tour appearances on January 29 and 30, I talked to El-Waylly about how to host a dinner party that will cure winter blues and what she ate the last time she visited the Bay, as a depressed undergrad over 20 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">********\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OLIVIA CRUZ MAYEDA:\u003c/b> Your new cookbook weaves in guidance and anecdotes that feel resonant in the kitchen and outside it, too. What do you hope people take with them from \u003ci>Start Here\u003c/i> as they move through the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SOHLA EL-WAYLLY: \u003c/b>I think the biggest message is that you’re going to mess up, and it’s going to be okay — that’s the main thing. I think that a lot of times people don’t even try stuff because they’re afraid of failing or just not being good at it. But I think it’s important to remember that everyone’s terrible at everything in the beginning, and you just have to push through that phase of maybe making a lot of bad food, and it will eventually get good. I think that really applies to everything in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px;min-width: 325px\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae/video/7283990481220963626\" data-video-id=\"7283990481220963626\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@sohlae\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@sohlae\u003c/a> Here’s another peek from my cookbook, START HERE! (Have you preordered yet!?) In it, I teach you techniques, so eventually you won’t need recipes any more! Like this method for the best crispy, juicy, seared & braised chicken thighs. Make it like me with salsa verde and zucchini, or make it your own with cauliflower & curry, carrots & bone broth, or however the hell you want! Photos @Laura hi \u003ca title=\"♬ Sweet Dreams - Trinix\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/Sweet-Dreams-6795037315535210498?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ Sweet Dreams – Trinix\u003c/a>\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"tiktok","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>New York Times\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb> called your cookbook “the new \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Joy of Cooking\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>.” What cookbooks or food personalities most influenced you when you were starting out?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every day after school, I’d watch Jacques Torres. He had this show on PBS called “Desert Circus.” It had a really fun intro, and he’d roll around on roller skates. He did a chocolate sculpture once, and he had all these molds. And then he was like, “Anything can be a mold.” And he grabbed that air conditioner filter and molded chocolate on that, so then I went and I grabbed the filter out of the air conditioner! A lot of people can be a little rigid and, especially with pastry, be like, “You have to get this piping tip,” you know, “and you need this cake pan.” But he showed how you can make things work with what you have. And I feel like that really inspired me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What are you looking forward to during your visit to the Bay Area? Any foods in particular?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, I haven’t been in a really long time, but I went to school at UC Irvine. And I was really depressed. So the thing to do was to just drive to San Francisco all the way up [the Pacific Coast Highway]. And then get clam chowder at, like, five in the morning. I want to go to that pier that I went to and try to get some clam chowder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I first encountered your work when you were still working at Bon Appetit, where you were part of a racial reckoning at the publication but also in food media at large. Do you feel like any meaningful change has happened since then?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It does feel like there’s more diverse voices that are out there now. But I think that the biggest thing — and I don’t even think this has anything to do with anything I did or anything that happened — is just that people have their own platforms now. With social media, the people are picking who gets to be uplifted. I really like that there’s a lot of cool independent creators who I don’t think would have had a huge voice with traditional media. One of my favorite people is — Black Forager is her handle — \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@alexisnikole?lang=en\">Alexis Nicole\u003c/a>. I love her. I learn so much from her videos. And she’s someone that did it completely on her own, and the people picked her. I just love that there’s more and more voices like that because we don’t need the traditional media anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>I\u003c/i> only exist because of the people who support me. I know that. And it’s really heartwarming that I have this support and this really loving community. And it’s also scary because I hope I’m giving them enough, you know what I mean? I totally exist because of individuals who believe in me, not because of one big, faceless corporation.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"instagramLink","attributes":{"named":{"instagramId":"CzKW8Xov-Or"},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>There’s so much heaviness in the world right now from the Congo to Sudan to Palestine. You signed onto — along with Berkeley chef Samin Nosrat — the \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hospitality-for-humanity.com/\">\u003cb>Hospitality for Humanity\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> pledge, a coalition of food and beverage workers calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, co-organized by another Bay Area chef, Reem Assil. How do you hope food and chefs can play a role in social justice and political organizing?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s tough. I feel like a lot of what happens is people just repost things, which I also was doing for a while, but I stopped because I saw a lot of prominent people who posted misinformation by accident with the best intentions because we’re not journalists, we’re not politicians. It’s easy to not know exactly what’s a real post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think the better way is just to focus on bringing awareness with what we do best, which is food. And I think it’s really important, especially with what’s happening in Palestine, to humanize the people there by just sharing more of their culture. I like talking about the food and celebrating the positive things that are happening over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I love the deep dives into food history and food science that feel like throughlines in your work. Is there anything you’ve been nerding out about recently?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13921460,arts_13919177,arts_13926618","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/span>Well, I’m currently working on my next book. The first one, I knew exactly what I wanted the book to accomplish. So for the next book, I don’t really have a plan, and I’m just letting myself learn about things that are interesting to me, and I’m just cooking stuff that I’m into. So I’ve just really been into princess cake lately. I’ve always seen them, but the ones from the grocery store are usually not very good, if we’re being totally honest. That marzipan is a little stale. But making a fresh one kind of blew me away with how delicious it is. So now I just want to learn more about princess cake and marzipan. I want to be someone where anytime you come over to my house — even if it’s a Tuesday — I made you a princess cake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I’m having a small dinner party tomorrow with a few friends. What’s a menu from recipes in your book that you’d recommend for a vibey but not super high-maintenance dinner to cure our winter blues?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think for appetizers, there’s a shrimp cocktail in the book that’s really fun, and broiled oysters. But most of the time when we have people over, I can’t wrap my head around all that. So I’ll make a quick crudités plate. I love having some crunchy veg before a meal because it’s kind of like palate cleanser vibes. Try radishes and some Asian pear. There’s a ranch fun dip recipe in the book using pistachios — that’s fantastic. So put all the veggies on ice and get a nice glass bowl for the fun dip. People don’t give crudités respect, but you can make it really sexy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the main, maybe make those braised short ribs. You can make them the same day, but they are a lot better if you dry-brine them tonight. And then I really like to serve that with steamed vegetables, like some really nice broccolini and carrots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then dessert: I think you should go for the chocolate pudding pie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>El-Waylly will be signing copies of \u003c/i>Start Here\u003ci> at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/products/sohla-el-waylly-book-signing-start-here-instructions-for-becoming-a-better-cook\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St., San Francisco) at 4 p.m. on January 30, following her \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jccsf.org/event/sohla-el-waylly-start-here/\">\u003ci>sold-out book event\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> at the Jewish Community Center of San Francisco on January 29.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13951141/sohla-el-waylly-cookbook-start-here-bay-area-interview","authors":["11872"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_16106","arts_10278","arts_1297","arts_1050","arts_989","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13951147","label":"source_arts_13951141"},"arts_13938161":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13938161","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13938161","score":null,"sort":[1700247493000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"vegan-cookbook-plant-based-budget-quick","title":"A New Cookbook Shows That Going Vegan Doesn't Have to Break Your Budget","publishDate":1700247493,"format":"standard","headTitle":"A New Cookbook Shows That Going Vegan Doesn’t Have to Break Your Budget | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>Toni Okamoto spent most of her childhood in Sacramento with her Mexican grandmother and Japanese grandfather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From her grandmother, she learned to cook calabasitas, sopa de fideo and tacos of all kinds. From her grandfather, she learned the value of cultivating your own ingredients — he returned to work on the family farm after surviving World War II internment camps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those influences now show up fondly in Okamato’s work as a vegan cook, a path she started in 2007, when she was 20 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, she released her fourth cookbook, \u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/718948/plant-based-on-a-budget-quick-and-easy-by-toni-okamoto-foreword-by-michael-greger/\">\u003ci>Plant-Based on a Budget Quick & Easy\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, which offers vegan recipes that are inexpensive and culturally relevant. She’s on a mission to re-educate people on how to cook better for their health, well-being and bank accounts while staying true to their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In that way, Okamoto’s work echoes that of other Northern California cookbook authors including\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13900311/bryant-terry-four-color-books-imprint-food-media-diversity\"> Bryant Terry\u003c/a>, Luz Calvo and Catriona Rueda Esquibel, whose \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayexpress.com/bay-area-professors-write-decolonial-mexican-cookbook-to-reclaim-the-traditional-foods-of-their-ancestors-2-1/\">decolonial approach\u003c/a> to cooking challenges the widely accepted narrative that cultural or “ethnic” foods are inherently unhealthy — and that they must showcase meat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-13938179\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2469\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-800x1029.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-1020x1312.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-768x988.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-1194x1536.jpg 1194w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-1593x2048.jpg 1593w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Okamoto’s new cookbook has a recipe for udon noodles with peanut sauce, sheet pan nachos, cauliflower fried rice and vanilla buttercream frosting. There is an entire section on grains and legumes, ranging from amaranth to Mexican-style rice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, her sopa de fideo — a tomato broth–based pasta dish — is a version of a meal I make for my kids about once a week based on a recipe I learned from my mother. Okamoto spruces hers up by adding diced zucchini and fresh tomatoes for texture and using vegetable broth instead of chicken bouillon. It takes less than 15 minutes to prepare and tastes like a bowl of grandma hugs. It’s also the kind of dish that can be reduced to a few steps or dressed up with a bit of extra effort, which reflects another one of the book’s themes: Make your food as easy and simple as you want, and level up as you see fit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The release of \u003ci>Plant-Based on a Budget Quick & Easy\u003c/i> also coincides with a time of steep inflation. In 2022, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-price-outlook/summary-findings/\">food prices shot up by 10 percent\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=2b168260-a717-4708-a264-cb354e815c67#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20share%20of,on%20food%20away%20from%20home.\">consumers spent 11.3 percent of their disposable income on food\u003c/a> — the sharpest leap ever recorded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. And so the book also teaches readers how to master the basics with an eye toward frugality — properly stocking your pantry, cooking enough for multiple meals and planning ingredient lists ahead of time to avoid over-buying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I talked to Okamoto about her journey as a vegan cook, her tips for eating more plants and how she fights the perception that veganism is mostly just for wealthy white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: There is a perception that healthy eating is expensive. What are your thoughts on that? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Toni Okamoto:\u003c/b> There has been this narrative that’s been created that processed food and fast food are the more inexpensive route to go. But when I teach people how to eat healthy and on a budget and to think beyond one meal, a light bulb will go off in their head. It will become clear that this is the cheapest way to be eating. I buy things like rice and beans, some frozen vegetables, some fruit like bananas and some sunflower seeds that can really stretch me the entire week, and I’ve shown countless people how to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13938180\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1707px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13938180\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A smiling woman in a white blouse holds up a grocery store receipt.\" width=\"1707\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-scaled.jpg 1707w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-800x1200.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-1020x1530.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-768x1152.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-1024x1536.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-1365x2048.jpg 1365w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1707px) 100vw, 1707px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Okamoto shows off her budget-friendly meal planning skills. \u003ccite>(Michelle Cehn)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do you have basic tips that you start out with?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I would start out by creating a meal plan and taking note of what you have in your pantry and your refrigerator already. Then I take a shopping list to the grocery store. It’s so stressful to go in there and see all the things that I want to buy. But if I stay the course, I will save a lot of money, which will ultimately make me happy. You can buy a whole large container of oats for about $2.50. I’ll do overnight oats with sliced banana and some raw sunflower seeds for breakfast. For my entrees throughout the work week, I’ll do something like a big pasta dish with some fruits and veggies, maybe a can of beans and marinara sauce. Very simple and also economical. Another idea would be chili using pantry staples like canned beans, canned corn, canned tomatoes. Those will all be inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I was on a very, very, extremely tight financial budget, living in a lot of debt, I chose to cook dried beans, and I would have to soak them the night before and then watch them on the stove for a few hours as they cooked. Now I don’t have that time and have a little bit more money, so I’m choosing cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>You were vegetarian, and then you became vegan. How do you define being a vegan?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[In college] I joined a vegetarian club on campus, solely so that I could receive extra credit. I found incredibly inspiring people who taught me that it was possible to be on a budget, to be tied culturally to food that you grew up eating and still be vegan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Veganism often comes off as elitist or that it’s a “white people thing.” What are your thoughts on breaking those perceptions? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Being vegan for the past 16 years, I see it is becoming far more diverse than ever. The Black community is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13916044/sucka-free-soul-the-vegan-hood-chefs-honor-southern-heritage-with-a-frisco-twist\">leading\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13906738/malibus-burgers-vegan-diner-breakfast-oakland\">the way\u003c/a> for people becoming more interested in vegan living. And I think it’s now not only about the ethics of the environment or animals, but so many people are looking at their families and the suffering that they’ve experienced health-wise. I am so inspired by the vegans of color out there using their platforms to educate people on the benefits of plant-based eating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13938181\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13938181\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles.jpg\" alt=\"A bowl of sesame ginger noodles topped with tofu and sliced red pepper.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1536\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-800x640.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-1020x816.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-768x614.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Okamoto believes vegan dishes — like this bowl of sesame-ginger noodles — can and should reflect people’s cultural identities. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of BenBella Books)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Why do you use the term “plant-based”? What do you think that means? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cstrong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[aside postID='arts_13928345,arts_13916044,arts_13910234']\u003c/span>\u003c/strong>\u003c/b>I wanted to create a resource that was as inclusive as possible. I originally started \u003ci>Plant-Based on a Budget\u003c/i> to solve some of the issues that my own family was experiencing. There was type 2 diabetes and heart disease that were causing so much suffering and sadness. We lost some family members to those things, and they experienced hardships before that, like heart attacks and amputations. I wanted to relieve some of the pain points like cost when it came to eating healthier and combating those diet-related health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of struggles that people are facing in their lives. And it’s so easy to think that someone doesn’t care about their nutrition or what their children are eating. But the fact is that people really do care. They just don’t have the skill set and the knowledge to change their habits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How did your upbringing influence your cooking? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When my dad came back from the Navy after being deployed, I went to live with him. And we lived sort of the bachelor life together. I started eating foods that were more processed and more convenient. My dad worked a lot trying to give us the best life possible, so we relied on convenient foods like a can of chili and hot dogs or Hamburger Helper, things like that. It wasn’t until I ran track in high school that I started feeling ill all the time, and my concerned coach suggested that I cut back on red meats and fast food so that I could perform better, feel healthier. It was the first time I thought about the food I ate and how it impacted my health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13938182\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13938182\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo.jpg\" alt=\"A woman seated outdoors next to a garden bed holds up a stalk of kale.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1177\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-800x490.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-1020x625.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-160x98.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-768x471.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-1536x942.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Okamoto believes most people can add more plant-based foods into their diet, even if it’s just one or two meals a week. \u003ccite>(Michelle Cehn)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>At first, your family disagreed with your decision to stop eating meat. Now that your parents have come around, what is that like for you?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, I think there’s a mutual love and respect that we’ve shared for each other that wants us to continue being close. And they want to see me happy. They want to see me thriving, They want to see me healthy. And they know that this is the path I believe is going to make those things possible. So they support it. I appreciate how they’ve opened their minds and hearts. My parents no longer buy meat-based chorizo, they buy Soyrizo. If you knew my parents beforehand, you would also really appreciate that change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do you have any general guidance for people interested in expanding their diet to include more vegan foods?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can start with Meatless Monday or “Vegan Before 6:00” or one or two vegan or vegetarian meals per week. Eating more plants is going to help your gut. It’s going to bring you more energy, provide your body with more nutrients, and those are all positive things. It’s about giving yourself space to make those changes and also grace when you’re not meeting your goals.\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Sacramento author Toni Okamoto is on a mission to counter the misconceptions about plant-based cooking.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705003083,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":31,"wordCount":1624},"headData":{"title":"A New Cookbook Shows That Going Vegan Doesn't Have to Break Your Budget | KQED","description":"Sacramento author Toni Okamoto is on a mission to counter the misconceptions about plant-based cooking.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"A New Cookbook Shows That Going Vegan Doesn't Have to Break Your Budget","datePublished":"2023-11-17T18:58:13.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T19:58:03.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"source":"Food","sourceUrl":"/food/","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13938161/vegan-cookbook-plant-based-budget-quick","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Toni Okamoto spent most of her childhood in Sacramento with her Mexican grandmother and Japanese grandfather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From her grandmother, she learned to cook calabasitas, sopa de fideo and tacos of all kinds. From her grandfather, she learned the value of cultivating your own ingredients — he returned to work on the family farm after surviving World War II internment camps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those influences now show up fondly in Okamato’s work as a vegan cook, a path she started in 2007, when she was 20 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, she released her fourth cookbook, \u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/718948/plant-based-on-a-budget-quick-and-easy-by-toni-okamoto-foreword-by-michael-greger/\">\u003ci>Plant-Based on a Budget Quick & Easy\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, which offers vegan recipes that are inexpensive and culturally relevant. She’s on a mission to re-educate people on how to cook better for their health, well-being and bank accounts while staying true to their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In that way, Okamoto’s work echoes that of other Northern California cookbook authors including\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13900311/bryant-terry-four-color-books-imprint-food-media-diversity\"> Bryant Terry\u003c/a>, Luz Calvo and Catriona Rueda Esquibel, whose \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayexpress.com/bay-area-professors-write-decolonial-mexican-cookbook-to-reclaim-the-traditional-foods-of-their-ancestors-2-1/\">decolonial approach\u003c/a> to cooking challenges the widely accepted narrative that cultural or “ethnic” foods are inherently unhealthy — and that they must showcase meat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-13938179\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2469\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-800x1029.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-1020x1312.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-768x988.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-1194x1536.jpg 1194w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Plant-BasedonaBudget-QuickandEasy_FrontCover-1593x2048.jpg 1593w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Okamoto’s new cookbook has a recipe for udon noodles with peanut sauce, sheet pan nachos, cauliflower fried rice and vanilla buttercream frosting. There is an entire section on grains and legumes, ranging from amaranth to Mexican-style rice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, her sopa de fideo — a tomato broth–based pasta dish — is a version of a meal I make for my kids about once a week based on a recipe I learned from my mother. Okamoto spruces hers up by adding diced zucchini and fresh tomatoes for texture and using vegetable broth instead of chicken bouillon. It takes less than 15 minutes to prepare and tastes like a bowl of grandma hugs. It’s also the kind of dish that can be reduced to a few steps or dressed up with a bit of extra effort, which reflects another one of the book’s themes: Make your food as easy and simple as you want, and level up as you see fit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The release of \u003ci>Plant-Based on a Budget Quick & Easy\u003c/i> also coincides with a time of steep inflation. In 2022, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-price-outlook/summary-findings/\">food prices shot up by 10 percent\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=2b168260-a717-4708-a264-cb354e815c67#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20share%20of,on%20food%20away%20from%20home.\">consumers spent 11.3 percent of their disposable income on food\u003c/a> — the sharpest leap ever recorded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. And so the book also teaches readers how to master the basics with an eye toward frugality — properly stocking your pantry, cooking enough for multiple meals and planning ingredient lists ahead of time to avoid over-buying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I talked to Okamoto about her journey as a vegan cook, her tips for eating more plants and how she fights the perception that veganism is mostly just for wealthy white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: There is a perception that healthy eating is expensive. What are your thoughts on that? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Toni Okamoto:\u003c/b> There has been this narrative that’s been created that processed food and fast food are the more inexpensive route to go. But when I teach people how to eat healthy and on a budget and to think beyond one meal, a light bulb will go off in their head. It will become clear that this is the cheapest way to be eating. I buy things like rice and beans, some frozen vegetables, some fruit like bananas and some sunflower seeds that can really stretch me the entire week, and I’ve shown countless people how to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13938180\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1707px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13938180\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A smiling woman in a white blouse holds up a grocery store receipt.\" width=\"1707\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-scaled.jpg 1707w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-800x1200.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-1020x1530.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-768x1152.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-1024x1536.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Michelle-Meal-Plans-Last-Day-94-1-1-1365x2048.jpg 1365w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1707px) 100vw, 1707px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Okamoto shows off her budget-friendly meal planning skills. \u003ccite>(Michelle Cehn)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do you have basic tips that you start out with?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I would start out by creating a meal plan and taking note of what you have in your pantry and your refrigerator already. Then I take a shopping list to the grocery store. It’s so stressful to go in there and see all the things that I want to buy. But if I stay the course, I will save a lot of money, which will ultimately make me happy. You can buy a whole large container of oats for about $2.50. I’ll do overnight oats with sliced banana and some raw sunflower seeds for breakfast. For my entrees throughout the work week, I’ll do something like a big pasta dish with some fruits and veggies, maybe a can of beans and marinara sauce. Very simple and also economical. Another idea would be chili using pantry staples like canned beans, canned corn, canned tomatoes. Those will all be inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I was on a very, very, extremely tight financial budget, living in a lot of debt, I chose to cook dried beans, and I would have to soak them the night before and then watch them on the stove for a few hours as they cooked. Now I don’t have that time and have a little bit more money, so I’m choosing cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>You were vegetarian, and then you became vegan. How do you define being a vegan?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[In college] I joined a vegetarian club on campus, solely so that I could receive extra credit. I found incredibly inspiring people who taught me that it was possible to be on a budget, to be tied culturally to food that you grew up eating and still be vegan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Veganism often comes off as elitist or that it’s a “white people thing.” What are your thoughts on breaking those perceptions? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Being vegan for the past 16 years, I see it is becoming far more diverse than ever. The Black community is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13916044/sucka-free-soul-the-vegan-hood-chefs-honor-southern-heritage-with-a-frisco-twist\">leading\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13906738/malibus-burgers-vegan-diner-breakfast-oakland\">the way\u003c/a> for people becoming more interested in vegan living. And I think it’s now not only about the ethics of the environment or animals, but so many people are looking at their families and the suffering that they’ve experienced health-wise. I am so inspired by the vegans of color out there using their platforms to educate people on the benefits of plant-based eating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13938181\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13938181\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles.jpg\" alt=\"A bowl of sesame ginger noodles topped with tofu and sliced red pepper.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1536\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-800x640.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-1020x816.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-768x614.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Sesame-Ginger-Noodles-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Okamoto believes vegan dishes — like this bowl of sesame-ginger noodles — can and should reflect people’s cultural identities. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of BenBella Books)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Why do you use the term “plant-based”? What do you think that means? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cstrong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13928345,arts_13916044,arts_13910234","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/span>\u003c/strong>\u003c/b>I wanted to create a resource that was as inclusive as possible. I originally started \u003ci>Plant-Based on a Budget\u003c/i> to solve some of the issues that my own family was experiencing. There was type 2 diabetes and heart disease that were causing so much suffering and sadness. We lost some family members to those things, and they experienced hardships before that, like heart attacks and amputations. I wanted to relieve some of the pain points like cost when it came to eating healthier and combating those diet-related health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of struggles that people are facing in their lives. And it’s so easy to think that someone doesn’t care about their nutrition or what their children are eating. But the fact is that people really do care. They just don’t have the skill set and the knowledge to change their habits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How did your upbringing influence your cooking? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When my dad came back from the Navy after being deployed, I went to live with him. And we lived sort of the bachelor life together. I started eating foods that were more processed and more convenient. My dad worked a lot trying to give us the best life possible, so we relied on convenient foods like a can of chili and hot dogs or Hamburger Helper, things like that. It wasn’t until I ran track in high school that I started feeling ill all the time, and my concerned coach suggested that I cut back on red meats and fast food so that I could perform better, feel healthier. It was the first time I thought about the food I ate and how it impacted my health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13938182\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13938182\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo.jpg\" alt=\"A woman seated outdoors next to a garden bed holds up a stalk of kale.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1177\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-800x490.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-1020x625.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-160x98.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-768x471.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Toni-Author-Photo-1536x942.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Okamoto believes most people can add more plant-based foods into their diet, even if it’s just one or two meals a week. \u003ccite>(Michelle Cehn)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>At first, your family disagreed with your decision to stop eating meat. Now that your parents have come around, what is that like for you?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, I think there’s a mutual love and respect that we’ve shared for each other that wants us to continue being close. And they want to see me happy. They want to see me thriving, They want to see me healthy. And they know that this is the path I believe is going to make those things possible. So they support it. I appreciate how they’ve opened their minds and hearts. My parents no longer buy meat-based chorizo, they buy Soyrizo. If you knew my parents beforehand, you would also really appreciate that change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do you have any general guidance for people interested in expanding their diet to include more vegan foods?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can start with Meatless Monday or “Vegan Before 6:00” or one or two vegan or vegetarian meals per week. Eating more plants is going to help your gut. It’s going to bring you more energy, provide your body with more nutrients, and those are all positive things. It’s about giving yourself space to make those changes and also grace when you’re not meeting your goals.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13938161/vegan-cookbook-plant-based-budget-quick","authors":["11666"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_16106","arts_1297","arts_21673","arts_877","arts_989","arts_5779","arts_14087"],"featImg":"arts_13938177","label":"source_arts_13938161"},"arts_13937806":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13937806","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13937806","score":null,"sort":[1699492681000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"fuchsia-dunlop-taught-me-how-to-cook-chinese-food","title":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food","publishDate":1699492681,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>For most of my adult life, I didn’t really know how to cook Chinese food. Once in a while, I’d attempt some big song and dance for a dinner party — scratch-made dumplings, say, or crispy roast pork belly. But the kind of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13924997/the-woks-of-life-chinese-american-cookbook-berkeley-san-francisco-omnivore-books\">homey, everyday dishes I grew up on\u003c/a> as a first-generation immigrant kid? Those remained a mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After I had children of my own, that ignorance started to feel like a personal failing: Americanized as my girls were certain to be, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ediblecommunities.com/recipes/the-best-congee/\">I couldn’t stand the idea\u003c/a> that they would grow up not knowing how to eat a proper family-style Chinese meal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, I set about trying to learn. This was eight or nine years ago, when reliable English-language recipes for home-style Chinese dishes were still relatively hard to find. When I snagged a copy of Fuchsia Dunlop’s \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393089042\">\u003ci>Every Grain of Rice\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, it felt like I could finally unlock the puzzle box I’d been worrying over for years. Here, at last, was an English-language cookbook packed with straightforward recipes for the kind of simple Chinese dishes that I’d grown up on: pressed tofu stir-fried with green peppers, clams in black bean sauce, napa cabbage with dried shrimp. By the time I finished cooking my way through the book, I was well on my way to becoming the kind of competent Chinese home cook who could whip up three quick stir-fries in the time it takes a pot of rice to finish steaming. All thanks to the clear instruction of a mild-mannered white woman from the U.K.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop, of course, is a legend in the world of Chinese cookery. In the ’90s, she became the first Westerner to train at the prestigious Sichuan Higher Institute of Cuisine in Chengdu, China, and she has made a career out of translating China’s wildly diverse, and often wildly misunderstood, cuisines for a non-Chinese audience. She’s done it, too, with a humility and earnest curiosity that sets her apart from many of her \u003ca href=\"https://www.ocweekly.com/the-problem-isnt-rick-bayless-cooking-mexican-food-its-that-hes-a-thin-skinned-diva-7075113-2/\">“white expert” counterparts\u003c/a> in other cuisines: No one is quicker than Dunlop to deflect praise back to the Chinese chefs who have befriended her and taught her their secrets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-13937825\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The book jacket for Fuchsia Dunlop's 'Invitation to a Banquet' depicts a colorful Chinese ceramic bowl against a light blue background.\" width=\"1695\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg 1695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-800x1208.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1020x1540.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-768x1160.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1017x1536.jpg 1017w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1356x2048.jpg 1356w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1695px) 100vw, 1695px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop’s new book, \u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>, isn’t a cookbook at all. Instead, it’s a meandering, often philosophical exploration of what Chinese food culture actually \u003ci>is —\u003c/i> and what it’s becoming — told through the story of 30 specific dishes. In one chapter, about a soup of wild catfish cheeks, she writes about the dozens of different food textures that the Chinese both admire and have highly specific words for. In another, she writes about a dish made by braising the cottony, seemingly inedible pith of a pomelo until it becomes ethereally delicious — a creation so ingenious that it flips the famous notion that Chinese people are willing to treat \u003ci>anything\u003c/i> vaguely edible as an ingredient entirely on its head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No other cuisine,” Dunlop writes of Chinese food, “has had such extraordinary influence or been so much loved, adopted and localized in so many countries.” At the same time, few other cuisines have been as shockingly misunderstood, especially in the West\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the eve of the book’s U.S. release — and ahead of her San Francisco book tour events on Nov. 13 and 14 — I spoke to Dunlop about new trends in American Chinese food, what Chinese people in China think of her books, and the uniquely British phenomenon of fish and chip shops that have been converted into Chinese restaurants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luke Tsai: You’re probably best known for your cookbooks, but this new book, \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>, very much is not that — it’s more about the history and cultural context behind Chinese food. What inspired this project?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fuchsia Dunlop:\u003c/b> Well, I’ve been eating and thinking about Chinese food for about 30 years now, and there’s always been more that I wanted to say about it than you can reasonably do in the headnotes or introduction of a cookbook. The thing that was preoccupying me more and more is this weird injustice in the way that Chinese food is viewed internationally, which is that it’s incredibly popular globally, and it has been, in many places, for 100 years. But at the same time, people don’t really give it credit for being the sophisticated, extraordinarily diverse and wide-ranging cuisine that it is. Chinese food has been stuck in the kind of easy neighborhood or takeout brackets. And few people in the West have the chance to try really high-level Chinese food — these technically advanced, complicated dishes that are not recognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of the stereotypes that I really wanted to look at in the book is the old thing about the Chinese eating everything, which has always been seen in a really negative light in the West — this idea that it’s a poor country that’s a bit desperate, so they’ll eat anything. It’s true that the Chinese eat an extraordinary range of ingredients, and are much more adventurous than your typical Westerner. But I find this inspirational and joyful. And also at a time when we all have to think more creatively about how we eat because of environmental reasons, I think there’s so much to learn from this radically creative Chinese approach to making delicacies out of everything and not wasting anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937828\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937828\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg\" alt=\"A cook in a striped apron poses for the camera while holding a plate of Chinese food.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-800x1000.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1020x1276.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-160x200.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-768x960.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1228x1536.jpg 1228w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1638x2048.jpg 1638w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dunlop poses for a photo in her London kitchen. \u003ccite>(Yuki Sugiura)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>One of the parts of the book I found really interesting were the differences between British Chinese food and American Chinese food — the fact that Chinese food didn’t really take off in the U.K. until after the 1950s, for instance. What would you say are the main differences today?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have some parallels like chow mein and chop suey. In the U.K., we have sweet-and-sour pork balls with red sauce and also chips in curry sauce because that was another thing — that Chinese restaurants often took over fish and chip shops. We don’t have General Tso’s chicken, but we do have crispy duck with pancakes everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In America now, you have whole suburbs with enormous populations of Chinese from all over China. In the U.K., we don’t have anywhere like San Gabriel Valley or New York Chinatown. The amount of produce and the scale is much bigger than ours, and you’ve got a greater diversity of regional restaurants. We have a lot of Sichuan and a bit of Hunan in the U.K., but you’ve got so many Jiangnan or Shanghainese restaurants, which we don’t really have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You’ve just got bigger centers of Chinese people in the U.S., and having more native Chinese people in an immigrant population makes the food much more “authentic,” in the sense that it’s closer to what people are actually eating in China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What do you think of the Bay Area’s Chinese food scene, especially in terms of some of the new movements we’re seeing in more “modern” second- or third-generation Chinese American cuisine — the food being put out by chefs like Brandon Jew (of \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.misterjius.com/\">\u003cb>Mister Jiu’s\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb>), who is hosting \u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/event/445082/invitation-to-a-banquet-cookbook-release-party-with-fuchsia-dunlop\">one of your San Francisco book events\u003c/a>?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not just in the Bay Area, but in America generally, I think it’s really interesting that there’s a whole lot of second- and third generation Chinese people who are doing interesting things that involve mixing up different cultural influences and working with their heritage but not being totally bound by it, which is really fun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another thing that I tried to bring out in the book is that Chinese food is so diverse and dynamic. In China itself, the food has always been responding to new cultures and new influences. The best example is Sichuanese food itself: They’ve only had chilies for a couple hundred years. They combined the chili with the ancient Chinese spice, the Sichuan pepper, and they created \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/magazine/mala-sicuhuan-peppercorn-recipe.html\">mala\u003c/a>. And now you can’t really imagine Sichuan food without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been traveling around for three decades now. Every time I go to China there’s some new craze, some new ingredient. Most of us have an affection and a reverence for tradition. But I think that can coexist with being creative — with breaking the tradition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937831\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1803px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937831\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The Chinese-language book jacket for the book 'Shark's Fin and Sichuan Pepper' depicts a woman bending down to talk to a Chinese woman seated in front of several bowls of soup.\" width=\"1803\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg 1803w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-800x1136.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1020x1448.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-160x227.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-768x1090.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1082x1536.jpg 1082w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1442x2048.jpg 1442w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1803px) 100vw, 1803px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The book jacket for the Chinese edition of Dunlop’s 2008 food memoir, ‘Shark’s Fin and Sichuan Pepper.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>It seems like you’re very conscious of your responsibility as the person who is introducing many people — even people of Chinese descent — to Chinese cooking. Do you think of your role as being primarily one of translating Chinese food culture to foreigners? Or have Chinese readers also become a part of your audience?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cstrong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[aside postID='arts_13924997,arts_13927103,arts_13906189']\u003c/span>\u003c/strong>\u003c/b>When I started out, what I thought I was doing was writing about Chinese food for people who were not Chinese and didn’t grow up with it. That was the whole motivation, really. And so it’s been really surprising to me that actually the people who appreciate it the most tend to be people like you — who know Chinese food and love it, but don’t necessarily speak the language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, four of my books have been published in China in Chinese — this one is the first book I’ve written that I knew would have a Chinese edition. So I suppose I’m not writing for only one audience anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I am an outsider. I didn’t grow up with this, and I’m observing Chinese food from that outside viewpoint. On the other hand, I’m really trying to understand how food is eaten and understood in China itself — and to be fair and balanced about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe that’s why Chinese people like it too. A lot of Chinese readers of the books tell me they find it really interesting. Somebody coming from outside notices things that you don’t really notice as the daily background of your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>On Monday, Nov. 13, Dunlop will appear in San Francisco for a book signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/CzAPdhzCnZ3/?img_index=1\">\u003ci>China Live\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (644 Broadway) from 2–4 p.m., and a book talk and signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/collections/events/products/pre-order-chinese-fuchsia-dunlop-invitation-to-a-banquet-the-story-of-chinese-food-expected-october-10\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St.) at 6:30 p.m.. On Tuesday, Nov. 14, she’ll appear at a ticketed release party at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/\">\u003ci>Moongate Lounge\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (28 Waverly Pl.) from 6–9 p.m. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Her new book, ‘Invitation to a Banquet,’ goes beyond recipes to grapple with the very essence of the cuisine.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705003118,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":29,"wordCount":1858},"headData":{"title":"Fuchsia Dunlop's New Book Tells the Story Chinese Food | KQED","description":"Her new book, ‘Invitation to a Banquet,’ goes beyond recipes to grapple with the very essence of the cuisine.","ogTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop's New Book Tells the Story Chinese Food %%page%% %%sep%% KQED","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food","datePublished":"2023-11-09T01:18:01.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T19:58:38.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"source":"Food","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/food","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13937806/fuchsia-dunlop-taught-me-how-to-cook-chinese-food","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>For most of my adult life, I didn’t really know how to cook Chinese food. Once in a while, I’d attempt some big song and dance for a dinner party — scratch-made dumplings, say, or crispy roast pork belly. But the kind of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13924997/the-woks-of-life-chinese-american-cookbook-berkeley-san-francisco-omnivore-books\">homey, everyday dishes I grew up on\u003c/a> as a first-generation immigrant kid? Those remained a mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After I had children of my own, that ignorance started to feel like a personal failing: Americanized as my girls were certain to be, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ediblecommunities.com/recipes/the-best-congee/\">I couldn’t stand the idea\u003c/a> that they would grow up not knowing how to eat a proper family-style Chinese meal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, I set about trying to learn. This was eight or nine years ago, when reliable English-language recipes for home-style Chinese dishes were still relatively hard to find. When I snagged a copy of Fuchsia Dunlop’s \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393089042\">\u003ci>Every Grain of Rice\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, it felt like I could finally unlock the puzzle box I’d been worrying over for years. Here, at last, was an English-language cookbook packed with straightforward recipes for the kind of simple Chinese dishes that I’d grown up on: pressed tofu stir-fried with green peppers, clams in black bean sauce, napa cabbage with dried shrimp. By the time I finished cooking my way through the book, I was well on my way to becoming the kind of competent Chinese home cook who could whip up three quick stir-fries in the time it takes a pot of rice to finish steaming. All thanks to the clear instruction of a mild-mannered white woman from the U.K.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop, of course, is a legend in the world of Chinese cookery. In the ’90s, she became the first Westerner to train at the prestigious Sichuan Higher Institute of Cuisine in Chengdu, China, and she has made a career out of translating China’s wildly diverse, and often wildly misunderstood, cuisines for a non-Chinese audience. She’s done it, too, with a humility and earnest curiosity that sets her apart from many of her \u003ca href=\"https://www.ocweekly.com/the-problem-isnt-rick-bayless-cooking-mexican-food-its-that-hes-a-thin-skinned-diva-7075113-2/\">“white expert” counterparts\u003c/a> in other cuisines: No one is quicker than Dunlop to deflect praise back to the Chinese chefs who have befriended her and taught her their secrets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-13937825\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The book jacket for Fuchsia Dunlop's 'Invitation to a Banquet' depicts a colorful Chinese ceramic bowl against a light blue background.\" width=\"1695\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg 1695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-800x1208.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1020x1540.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-768x1160.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1017x1536.jpg 1017w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1356x2048.jpg 1356w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1695px) 100vw, 1695px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop’s new book, \u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>, isn’t a cookbook at all. Instead, it’s a meandering, often philosophical exploration of what Chinese food culture actually \u003ci>is —\u003c/i> and what it’s becoming — told through the story of 30 specific dishes. In one chapter, about a soup of wild catfish cheeks, she writes about the dozens of different food textures that the Chinese both admire and have highly specific words for. In another, she writes about a dish made by braising the cottony, seemingly inedible pith of a pomelo until it becomes ethereally delicious — a creation so ingenious that it flips the famous notion that Chinese people are willing to treat \u003ci>anything\u003c/i> vaguely edible as an ingredient entirely on its head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No other cuisine,” Dunlop writes of Chinese food, “has had such extraordinary influence or been so much loved, adopted and localized in so many countries.” At the same time, few other cuisines have been as shockingly misunderstood, especially in the West\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the eve of the book’s U.S. release — and ahead of her San Francisco book tour events on Nov. 13 and 14 — I spoke to Dunlop about new trends in American Chinese food, what Chinese people in China think of her books, and the uniquely British phenomenon of fish and chip shops that have been converted into Chinese restaurants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luke Tsai: You’re probably best known for your cookbooks, but this new book, \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>, very much is not that — it’s more about the history and cultural context behind Chinese food. What inspired this project?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fuchsia Dunlop:\u003c/b> Well, I’ve been eating and thinking about Chinese food for about 30 years now, and there’s always been more that I wanted to say about it than you can reasonably do in the headnotes or introduction of a cookbook. The thing that was preoccupying me more and more is this weird injustice in the way that Chinese food is viewed internationally, which is that it’s incredibly popular globally, and it has been, in many places, for 100 years. But at the same time, people don’t really give it credit for being the sophisticated, extraordinarily diverse and wide-ranging cuisine that it is. Chinese food has been stuck in the kind of easy neighborhood or takeout brackets. And few people in the West have the chance to try really high-level Chinese food — these technically advanced, complicated dishes that are not recognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of the stereotypes that I really wanted to look at in the book is the old thing about the Chinese eating everything, which has always been seen in a really negative light in the West — this idea that it’s a poor country that’s a bit desperate, so they’ll eat anything. It’s true that the Chinese eat an extraordinary range of ingredients, and are much more adventurous than your typical Westerner. But I find this inspirational and joyful. And also at a time when we all have to think more creatively about how we eat because of environmental reasons, I think there’s so much to learn from this radically creative Chinese approach to making delicacies out of everything and not wasting anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937828\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937828\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg\" alt=\"A cook in a striped apron poses for the camera while holding a plate of Chinese food.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-800x1000.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1020x1276.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-160x200.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-768x960.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1228x1536.jpg 1228w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1638x2048.jpg 1638w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dunlop poses for a photo in her London kitchen. \u003ccite>(Yuki Sugiura)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>One of the parts of the book I found really interesting were the differences between British Chinese food and American Chinese food — the fact that Chinese food didn’t really take off in the U.K. until after the 1950s, for instance. What would you say are the main differences today?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have some parallels like chow mein and chop suey. In the U.K., we have sweet-and-sour pork balls with red sauce and also chips in curry sauce because that was another thing — that Chinese restaurants often took over fish and chip shops. We don’t have General Tso’s chicken, but we do have crispy duck with pancakes everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In America now, you have whole suburbs with enormous populations of Chinese from all over China. In the U.K., we don’t have anywhere like San Gabriel Valley or New York Chinatown. The amount of produce and the scale is much bigger than ours, and you’ve got a greater diversity of regional restaurants. We have a lot of Sichuan and a bit of Hunan in the U.K., but you’ve got so many Jiangnan or Shanghainese restaurants, which we don’t really have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You’ve just got bigger centers of Chinese people in the U.S., and having more native Chinese people in an immigrant population makes the food much more “authentic,” in the sense that it’s closer to what people are actually eating in China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What do you think of the Bay Area’s Chinese food scene, especially in terms of some of the new movements we’re seeing in more “modern” second- or third-generation Chinese American cuisine — the food being put out by chefs like Brandon Jew (of \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.misterjius.com/\">\u003cb>Mister Jiu’s\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb>), who is hosting \u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/event/445082/invitation-to-a-banquet-cookbook-release-party-with-fuchsia-dunlop\">one of your San Francisco book events\u003c/a>?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not just in the Bay Area, but in America generally, I think it’s really interesting that there’s a whole lot of second- and third generation Chinese people who are doing interesting things that involve mixing up different cultural influences and working with their heritage but not being totally bound by it, which is really fun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another thing that I tried to bring out in the book is that Chinese food is so diverse and dynamic. In China itself, the food has always been responding to new cultures and new influences. The best example is Sichuanese food itself: They’ve only had chilies for a couple hundred years. They combined the chili with the ancient Chinese spice, the Sichuan pepper, and they created \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/magazine/mala-sicuhuan-peppercorn-recipe.html\">mala\u003c/a>. And now you can’t really imagine Sichuan food without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been traveling around for three decades now. Every time I go to China there’s some new craze, some new ingredient. Most of us have an affection and a reverence for tradition. But I think that can coexist with being creative — with breaking the tradition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937831\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1803px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937831\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The Chinese-language book jacket for the book 'Shark's Fin and Sichuan Pepper' depicts a woman bending down to talk to a Chinese woman seated in front of several bowls of soup.\" width=\"1803\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg 1803w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-800x1136.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1020x1448.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-160x227.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-768x1090.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1082x1536.jpg 1082w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1442x2048.jpg 1442w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1803px) 100vw, 1803px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The book jacket for the Chinese edition of Dunlop’s 2008 food memoir, ‘Shark’s Fin and Sichuan Pepper.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>It seems like you’re very conscious of your responsibility as the person who is introducing many people — even people of Chinese descent — to Chinese cooking. Do you think of your role as being primarily one of translating Chinese food culture to foreigners? Or have Chinese readers also become a part of your audience?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cstrong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13924997,arts_13927103,arts_13906189","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/span>\u003c/strong>\u003c/b>When I started out, what I thought I was doing was writing about Chinese food for people who were not Chinese and didn’t grow up with it. That was the whole motivation, really. And so it’s been really surprising to me that actually the people who appreciate it the most tend to be people like you — who know Chinese food and love it, but don’t necessarily speak the language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, four of my books have been published in China in Chinese — this one is the first book I’ve written that I knew would have a Chinese edition. So I suppose I’m not writing for only one audience anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I am an outsider. I didn’t grow up with this, and I’m observing Chinese food from that outside viewpoint. On the other hand, I’m really trying to understand how food is eaten and understood in China itself — and to be fair and balanced about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe that’s why Chinese people like it too. A lot of Chinese readers of the books tell me they find it really interesting. Somebody coming from outside notices things that you don’t really notice as the daily background of your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>On Monday, Nov. 13, Dunlop will appear in San Francisco for a book signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/CzAPdhzCnZ3/?img_index=1\">\u003ci>China Live\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (644 Broadway) from 2–4 p.m., and a book talk and signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/collections/events/products/pre-order-chinese-fuchsia-dunlop-invitation-to-a-banquet-the-story-of-chinese-food-expected-october-10\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St.) at 6:30 p.m.. On Tuesday, Nov. 14, she’ll appear at a ticketed release party at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/\">\u003ci>Moongate Lounge\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (28 Waverly Pl.) from 6–9 p.m. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13937806/fuchsia-dunlop-taught-me-how-to-cook-chinese-food","authors":["11743"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_21727","arts_16106","arts_10278","arts_1297","arts_1050","arts_989","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13937823","label":"source_arts_13937806"},"arts_13930923":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13930923","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13930923","score":null,"sort":[1687899384000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"tune-yards-boots-riley-im-a-virgo","title":"How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe","publishDate":1687899384,"format":"aside","headTitle":"How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe | KQED","labelTerm":{"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13930965\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13930965\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"a white man and a woman pose on a rock in front of a lake\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1020x1020.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-768x768.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1536x1536.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1920x1920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square.jpg 1976w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nate Brenner and Merrill Garbus are Tune-Yards, whose experimental indie pop sets the tone for Boots Riley’s new show, ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pooneh Ghana)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Given the many delightfully strange elements packed into \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kqed.org/arts/13836455/in-sorry-to-bother-you-an-alternate-universe-oakland-is-still-true-and-familiar&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1687838246775907&usg=AOvVaw1djNgiIIFJwO-81Fyq3ZsQ\">\u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, Boots Riley’s 2018 directorial debut, one could be forgiven for overlooking its musical score. But from start to finish, the vocal-looped compositions created by Tune-Yards (Merrill Garbus and Nate Brenner) play a key role in bringing Riley’s surreal version of Oakland to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13836455']The same is true in \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>, Riley’s new series for Amazon Prime, which debuted on June 23 to rave reviews. The story, which follows a 13-foot-tall 19-year-old named Cootie (Jharrel Jerome) as he first discovers life outside his house, spans tones and genres; the plot contains elements of a superhero story, a heist movie, a romance, a buddy movie — there’s even an animated show-within-the-show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s consistent is the score, which works subtly but powerfully, almost as its own character. No one in modern pop music uses vocals as an instrument quite the way Tune-Yards does. Garbus’ voice surrounds the viewer, becoming a siren, then percussion; it’s layered into a Greek chorus; its timbre shifts nimbly with the show’s mood. The effect here is expansive — it adds weight to the storyline’s central tragedy, brings a light sweetness to Cootie’s experience of falling in love, and imbues action scenes with a colorful, off-kilter urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfpWY330mM\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Virgo\u003c/em> also seems to confirm that Tune-Yards has become the house band for the Boots Riley cinematic universe — the Danny Elfman to his Tim Burton, if you will — which means we can likely expect more from the partnership in years to come. (Riley has said he thinks of \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> as tracks No. 1 and 2 in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/boots-riley-interview-im-a-virgo-anti-capitalist-revolution-amazon-prime-1234772623/\">seven- or eight-track “cinematic album.”\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Garbus and Brenner work on material for a new Tune-Yards record, the score to \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> should be released on vinyl later this year. We called them up to hear more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: How did you and Boots meet? Were you fans of each other’s work first?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> I believe \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/gabbylalamusic/?hl=en\">Gabby [La La]\u003c/a>, his wife, liked Tune-Yards, and showed him some of our music. And then maybe he saw us at Stern Grove? But the first time we really met was New Year’s Eve 2012, when he opened for Erykah Badu at the Fox. His energy when he performed was just unbelievable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus: \u003c/strong>[His son] Django was only a couple months old at the time, and he was like, wearing him, with the little headphones on, hanging out between sets at the Fox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13927554']I grew up on the East Coast, so I only knew of the Coup peripherally, but once I started listening it was just completely up my alley. Coming from where I come from — my grandparents kind of hovered around the communism of New York Jews in the ’40s and ’50s, and I have a background in a lot of the stuff that I was hearing in the music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Had you ever scored a film before \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>? How did that part of your partnership begin?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> He was like “I’m making a movie, and I want you to do the music. Can I send you the screenplay?” A lot of times when people say they want Tune-Yards to score something, they mean they want us to write “Bizness” over again, or they want us to write “Water Fountain” over again. But with Boots, I had a feeling he was like, “No, I want all the weird of you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Honestly, it sounded too amazing to ever be made into a movie. But I was like, sure, I’ll make some weird music. So we started demoing and recording, and we’d meet at Awaken Cafe and just talk. He wanted a lot of my vocals, and I was using a lot of this harmonizer pedal I was into at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no, we had never scored a film before. If you had asked me before if I wanted to, I probably would have been like “Ha! Sure.” But — maybe because I didn’t go to school for music — it always seemed out of the realm of possibility for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtsDLj7g_oF/?hl=en\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What was your process like for the \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> We had a lot of time before they even started filming, on both \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>. We uploaded probably 100 demos to a SoundCloud, and he was still writing the script while he was listening to those. So he’d be like, ‘Oh, that was cool, you guys sent me that thing and I changed the script to fit it.’ I think he also wound up playing demos for the cast as they were shooting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Boots is really clear about the sounds in his head, including instrumentation. When he told us the concept of the show, I was like ‘Oh, do you want superhero music?’ and he was like ‘No, I don’t. Here is what I want.’ And he gave us a couple references that were wildly different than what I ever would have conceived of: carillon bells; the 1956 Japanese film\u003cem> Street of Shame\u003c/em>, with music by [avant-garde composer] Toshiro Mayuzumi; \u003cem>Cape Fear\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Throughout the process he’d text us at, like, midnight on a Sunday, being like “Check this out! I don’t want it to sound \u003cem>like\u003c/em> this, but maybe have a similar vibe…”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931048\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931048\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a man and a woman in a music studio, the woman is wearing headphones and sitting at a computer and giving a thumbs up\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tune-Yards at their studio, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Having a really strong melody was important to him. He didn’t want it to be abstract music. But he also didn’t want it to be repetitive, like in \u003cem>White Lotus\u003c/em> where you hear the theme over and over again and you can’t get it out of your head … so a lot of the intuition about how to be musicians scoring a television show went out the window. As it did with \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>. We’d be like “Well, typically in movie scores they do this…” and he’d be like, “Erase that from your mind! I don’t want to do typical movie music.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Also, he remembers \u003cem>everything\u003c/em>. He’d come over, like, two nights a week after our kid went to bed, and we’d play him something, and he’d give us notes. “OK, what if we tried a tambourine on this one?” And then we’d have a million things to do, and he’s busy, but four weeks later he’d be like “Let’s hear that tambourine.” He’s always throwing out so many ideas, you think he can’t possibly be keeping track of all of them. But he is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/p/CtkKuRkyH8U/\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>This show is set in a surreal version of Oakland. Were you consciously thinking about the sound of the Town when you were writing this score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> I think about Oakland and Oakland music traditions all the time, with the discomfort and self-consciousness of not growing up here, having moved here in 2009. I think Nate and Boots share a lot more of the George Clinton and Bootsy [Collins] thing, Nate grew up listening to that music. But I came to the Coup late, I came to E-40 late. I grew up on the East Coast with New York hip-hop and, like, Dave Matthews Band, the music of suburban Connecticut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which is all to say, with the exception of the our very first record, all our albums — the music that has really made Tune-Yards Tune-Yards — has been when I’ve lived in Oakland, and it’s \u003cem>always\u003c/em> me trying to figure myself out here, myself as a white person here. I almost want to say “as an expat.”[aside postid='arts_13894750']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With this show, though, I thought a lot about wanting to honor the fact that he asked \u003cem>us\u003c/em> to do this, he wanted Tune-Yards music. So we’re gonna do Tune-Yards music, knowing that Oakland is being filtered through us. Or maybe we’re being filtered through Oakland. Also, the references he gave us were so out there — like, from a Japanese film from the ’50s. If he wanted music that came from Oakland, he knows how to do that. But he wanted the world. He wants everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931049\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931049\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a woman sitting on the floor and a man sitting on a couch in a music studio\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Merrill Garbus and Boots Riley, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Were there any particularly challenging scenes or elements?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Definitely the psychic theater [a few segments in which Jones, an organizer played by Kara Young, delivers monologues about capitalism]. The last one is like seven and a half minutes of a character breaking down the exploitative and racist nature of capitalism. It really needs the music to help an audience stick around for that — even though Kara’s acting is amazing, and it’s extremely dynamic. But that’s another problem: how do you use music to move it along and also not get in the way of the dialogue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpagmvYZKRc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Those scenes are so wild to watch — for me, there was an element of “I can’t believe this is real, that this is going to be on a TV show distributed by Amazon.”\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> It’s definitely the first time I’ve seen an organizer as the main character in a TV show. There are just so many things [in this show that] we haven’t seen in mainstream culture. But there are organizers all over this country. And now someone could see that and think, ‘Oh, I want to do that in my community. I’ve never seen it before.’ It feels really instructive of how to use art in a way that can tap into people’s imaginations, open them up to different futures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll just say I hope this continues to be the time in our lives where we get to keep working with Boots Riley. \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> was a big change for me, and how I related to music. I think that indie pop, Pitchfork-y world of the mid-2000s that Tune-Yards came up in — I started to feel kind of constricted as an artist, as a creator. And it’s so satisfying to see Boots kind of bloom in pop culture at this particular moment in time. Just to be around him and be part of his creative universe has really opened my mind … It’s reinvigorated my sense of curiosity and inventiveness and wanting to do things that have never been done before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We worked harder on \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> than we have in a really long time, up late at night after our kid went to bed. Even just the amount of music that we wrote … it was all super intense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner: \u003c/strong>It’s one of those where, when you’re in the middle of it, you’re like, oh, we need a vacation as soon as this is over. But then when it’s over you’re like … what am I doing? And you just want to be working on it again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘I’m A Virgo’ is streaming now on Amazon Prime. Tune-Yards is scheduled to perform at Gundlach Bundschu Winery in Sonoma on Aug. 22 and at the Center for the Arts in Grass Valley on Aug. 23; \u003ca href=\"https://tune-yards.com/tourdates/\">details here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The Oakland indie pop duo discusses their score for the rapper-activist-filmmaker's wild new show, 'I'm A Virgo.'","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705005339,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":37,"wordCount":2132},"headData":{"title":"How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe | KQED","description":"The Oakland indie pop duo discusses their score for the rapper-activist-filmmaker's wild new show, 'I'm A Virgo.'","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe","datePublished":"2023-06-27T20:56:24.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T20:35:39.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"sticky":false,"templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13930923/tune-yards-boots-riley-im-a-virgo","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13930965\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13930965\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"a white man and a woman pose on a rock in front of a lake\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1020x1020.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-768x768.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1536x1536.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1920x1920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square.jpg 1976w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nate Brenner and Merrill Garbus are Tune-Yards, whose experimental indie pop sets the tone for Boots Riley’s new show, ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pooneh Ghana)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Given the many delightfully strange elements packed into \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kqed.org/arts/13836455/in-sorry-to-bother-you-an-alternate-universe-oakland-is-still-true-and-familiar&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1687838246775907&usg=AOvVaw1djNgiIIFJwO-81Fyq3ZsQ\">\u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, Boots Riley’s 2018 directorial debut, one could be forgiven for overlooking its musical score. But from start to finish, the vocal-looped compositions created by Tune-Yards (Merrill Garbus and Nate Brenner) play a key role in bringing Riley’s surreal version of Oakland to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13836455","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The same is true in \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>, Riley’s new series for Amazon Prime, which debuted on June 23 to rave reviews. The story, which follows a 13-foot-tall 19-year-old named Cootie (Jharrel Jerome) as he first discovers life outside his house, spans tones and genres; the plot contains elements of a superhero story, a heist movie, a romance, a buddy movie — there’s even an animated show-within-the-show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s consistent is the score, which works subtly but powerfully, almost as its own character. No one in modern pop music uses vocals as an instrument quite the way Tune-Yards does. Garbus’ voice surrounds the viewer, becoming a siren, then percussion; it’s layered into a Greek chorus; its timbre shifts nimbly with the show’s mood. The effect here is expansive — it adds weight to the storyline’s central tragedy, brings a light sweetness to Cootie’s experience of falling in love, and imbues action scenes with a colorful, off-kilter urgency.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/DYfpWY330mM'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/DYfpWY330mM'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Virgo\u003c/em> also seems to confirm that Tune-Yards has become the house band for the Boots Riley cinematic universe — the Danny Elfman to his Tim Burton, if you will — which means we can likely expect more from the partnership in years to come. (Riley has said he thinks of \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> as tracks No. 1 and 2 in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/boots-riley-interview-im-a-virgo-anti-capitalist-revolution-amazon-prime-1234772623/\">seven- or eight-track “cinematic album.”\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Garbus and Brenner work on material for a new Tune-Yards record, the score to \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> should be released on vinyl later this year. We called them up to hear more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: How did you and Boots meet? Were you fans of each other’s work first?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> I believe \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/gabbylalamusic/?hl=en\">Gabby [La La]\u003c/a>, his wife, liked Tune-Yards, and showed him some of our music. And then maybe he saw us at Stern Grove? But the first time we really met was New Year’s Eve 2012, when he opened for Erykah Badu at the Fox. His energy when he performed was just unbelievable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus: \u003c/strong>[His son] Django was only a couple months old at the time, and he was like, wearing him, with the little headphones on, hanging out between sets at the Fox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13927554","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>I grew up on the East Coast, so I only knew of the Coup peripherally, but once I started listening it was just completely up my alley. Coming from where I come from — my grandparents kind of hovered around the communism of New York Jews in the ’40s and ’50s, and I have a background in a lot of the stuff that I was hearing in the music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Had you ever scored a film before \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>? How did that part of your partnership begin?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> He was like “I’m making a movie, and I want you to do the music. Can I send you the screenplay?” A lot of times when people say they want Tune-Yards to score something, they mean they want us to write “Bizness” over again, or they want us to write “Water Fountain” over again. But with Boots, I had a feeling he was like, “No, I want all the weird of you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Honestly, it sounded too amazing to ever be made into a movie. But I was like, sure, I’ll make some weird music. So we started demoing and recording, and we’d meet at Awaken Cafe and just talk. He wanted a lot of my vocals, and I was using a lot of this harmonizer pedal I was into at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no, we had never scored a film before. If you had asked me before if I wanted to, I probably would have been like “Ha! Sure.” But — maybe because I didn’t go to school for music — it always seemed out of the realm of possibility for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtsDLj7g_oF/?hl=en\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What was your process like for the \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> We had a lot of time before they even started filming, on both \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>. We uploaded probably 100 demos to a SoundCloud, and he was still writing the script while he was listening to those. So he’d be like, ‘Oh, that was cool, you guys sent me that thing and I changed the script to fit it.’ I think he also wound up playing demos for the cast as they were shooting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Boots is really clear about the sounds in his head, including instrumentation. When he told us the concept of the show, I was like ‘Oh, do you want superhero music?’ and he was like ‘No, I don’t. Here is what I want.’ And he gave us a couple references that were wildly different than what I ever would have conceived of: carillon bells; the 1956 Japanese film\u003cem> Street of Shame\u003c/em>, with music by [avant-garde composer] Toshiro Mayuzumi; \u003cem>Cape Fear\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Throughout the process he’d text us at, like, midnight on a Sunday, being like “Check this out! I don’t want it to sound \u003cem>like\u003c/em> this, but maybe have a similar vibe…”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931048\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931048\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a man and a woman in a music studio, the woman is wearing headphones and sitting at a computer and giving a thumbs up\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tune-Yards at their studio, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Having a really strong melody was important to him. He didn’t want it to be abstract music. But he also didn’t want it to be repetitive, like in \u003cem>White Lotus\u003c/em> where you hear the theme over and over again and you can’t get it out of your head … so a lot of the intuition about how to be musicians scoring a television show went out the window. As it did with \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>. We’d be like “Well, typically in movie scores they do this…” and he’d be like, “Erase that from your mind! I don’t want to do typical movie music.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Also, he remembers \u003cem>everything\u003c/em>. He’d come over, like, two nights a week after our kid went to bed, and we’d play him something, and he’d give us notes. “OK, what if we tried a tambourine on this one?” And then we’d have a million things to do, and he’s busy, but four weeks later he’d be like “Let’s hear that tambourine.” He’s always throwing out so many ideas, you think he can’t possibly be keeping track of all of them. But he is.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"instagramLink","attributes":{"named":{"instagramId":"CtkKuRkyH8U"},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>This show is set in a surreal version of Oakland. Were you consciously thinking about the sound of the Town when you were writing this score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> I think about Oakland and Oakland music traditions all the time, with the discomfort and self-consciousness of not growing up here, having moved here in 2009. I think Nate and Boots share a lot more of the George Clinton and Bootsy [Collins] thing, Nate grew up listening to that music. But I came to the Coup late, I came to E-40 late. I grew up on the East Coast with New York hip-hop and, like, Dave Matthews Band, the music of suburban Connecticut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which is all to say, with the exception of the our very first record, all our albums — the music that has really made Tune-Yards Tune-Yards — has been when I’ve lived in Oakland, and it’s \u003cem>always\u003c/em> me trying to figure myself out here, myself as a white person here. I almost want to say “as an expat.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13894750","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With this show, though, I thought a lot about wanting to honor the fact that he asked \u003cem>us\u003c/em> to do this, he wanted Tune-Yards music. So we’re gonna do Tune-Yards music, knowing that Oakland is being filtered through us. Or maybe we’re being filtered through Oakland. Also, the references he gave us were so out there — like, from a Japanese film from the ’50s. If he wanted music that came from Oakland, he knows how to do that. But he wanted the world. He wants everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931049\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931049\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a woman sitting on the floor and a man sitting on a couch in a music studio\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Merrill Garbus and Boots Riley, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Were there any particularly challenging scenes or elements?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Definitely the psychic theater [a few segments in which Jones, an organizer played by Kara Young, delivers monologues about capitalism]. The last one is like seven and a half minutes of a character breaking down the exploitative and racist nature of capitalism. It really needs the music to help an audience stick around for that — even though Kara’s acting is amazing, and it’s extremely dynamic. But that’s another problem: how do you use music to move it along and also not get in the way of the dialogue?\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/lpagmvYZKRc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/lpagmvYZKRc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Those scenes are so wild to watch — for me, there was an element of “I can’t believe this is real, that this is going to be on a TV show distributed by Amazon.”\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> It’s definitely the first time I’ve seen an organizer as the main character in a TV show. There are just so many things [in this show that] we haven’t seen in mainstream culture. But there are organizers all over this country. And now someone could see that and think, ‘Oh, I want to do that in my community. I’ve never seen it before.’ It feels really instructive of how to use art in a way that can tap into people’s imaginations, open them up to different futures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll just say I hope this continues to be the time in our lives where we get to keep working with Boots Riley. \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> was a big change for me, and how I related to music. I think that indie pop, Pitchfork-y world of the mid-2000s that Tune-Yards came up in — I started to feel kind of constricted as an artist, as a creator. And it’s so satisfying to see Boots kind of bloom in pop culture at this particular moment in time. Just to be around him and be part of his creative universe has really opened my mind … It’s reinvigorated my sense of curiosity and inventiveness and wanting to do things that have never been done before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We worked harder on \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> than we have in a really long time, up late at night after our kid went to bed. Even just the amount of music that we wrote … it was all super intense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner: \u003c/strong>It’s one of those where, when you’re in the middle of it, you’re like, oh, we need a vacation as soon as this is over. But then when it’s over you’re like … what am I doing? And you just want to be working on it again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘I’m A Virgo’ is streaming now on Amazon Prime. Tune-Yards is scheduled to perform at Gundlach Bundschu Winery in Sonoma on Aug. 22 and at the Center for the Arts in Grass Valley on Aug. 23; \u003ca href=\"https://tune-yards.com/tourdates/\">details here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13930923/tune-yards-boots-riley-im-a-virgo","authors":["7237"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_835","arts_69","arts_990"],"tags":["arts_10589","arts_14347","arts_11374","arts_1998","arts_10342","arts_3607","arts_10278","arts_977","arts_1050","arts_1143","arts_10521","arts_989","arts_1584"],"featImg":"arts_13930964","label":"arts"},"arts_13929679":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13929679","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13929679","score":null,"sort":[1685123449000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"avant-to-live-is-a-monument-to-beloved-mission-filmmaker-craig-baldwin","title":"‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin","publishDate":1685123449,"format":"standard","headTitle":"‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":140,"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cp>An enjoyable exception to the usual prestige books about artists, \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!\u003c/em> evokes the iconoclastic personality of San Francisco’s preeminent underground filmmaker and The Other Cinema curator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Written and compiled by Bay Area artists and curators Brett Kashmere and Steve Polta (and just published by their respective organizations, INCITE Journal of Experimental Media and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcinematheque.org/avant-to-live-events/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">San Francisco Cinematheque\u003c/a>), the massive tome frontloads a veritable trove of reminiscences, anecdotes, interviews and tributes before presenting an array of critical analyses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more than 40 years, Craig Baldwin has reappropriated images from discarded and forgotten educational and industrial movies (found footage, in the vernacular of experimental film) to craft brilliant, hyper-dense 16mm films critiquing U.S. exceptionalism, colonialism, capitalism and moviemaking. Given that his works — \u003cem>Tribulation 99: Alien Anomalies Under America\u003c/em>, \u003cem>¡O No Coronado!\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Sonic Outlaws\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Spectres of the Spectrum\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Mock Up on Mu \u003c/em>— are subversive mashups of experimental documentary, science-fiction fantasia and essay film, it’s fitting that \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live\u003c/em> is a hybrid zine, scrapbook, academic treatise and alternate social history of post-1970s San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Roxie\u003c/a> hosts a celebration of the book Sunday, May 28 and a retrospective of Baldwin’s films May 30–31. I met the Mission’s whirling dervish at his home base, the Artists’ Television Access space on Valencia St., for a typically chatty, digressive conversation. Baldwin greeted me with a lament about the current state of the building, where he’s screened thousands of alternative films since the ‘80s, and a brief history of the punk artists who preceded him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929714\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png\" alt=\"a book cover in black and white that reads 'Craig Baldwin' in white and in red 'Avant to live!'\" width=\"800\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-160x204.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-768x980.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ was recently published by San Francisco Cinematheque and INCITE: Journal of Experimental Media. \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Baldwin:\u003c/strong> The history of this space [is that] it was too big — I think it was a bakery and a family could live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>KQED Arts:\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>A business in the front and the family lived upstairs.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s a brilliant idea. And you know what I call it? Live/work. [ATA and The Other] happened to be the destination space for people from the ‘burbs who would check this place out on a Saturday. You can’t get down the sidewalk. I’m not putting that down, by the way. I’m glad they come to the city. It’s too bad it doesn’t happen in their own neighborhoods but I’m glad to be presenting an alternative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we can hardly afford the rent. You know what’s two doors down? Dogue. If you want to serve your dog a $75 meal. Do you believe that? That is just m************ outrageous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I’m here on account of \u003cem>Avant to Live\u003c/em>, which has more love per page than the Kama Sutra.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like that. The writers are pouring love on me, if that’s what you mean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929710\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929710\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white film of a young woman with light hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"581\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1020x741.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-768x558.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1536x1116.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1920x1395.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg 1922w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘FlickSkin.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Do you recall a formative moment when motion pictures, moving images, captured you more than theater, sports writing and your other adolescent creative pursuits?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first movie I ever saw, at the Village Theater when I was growing up in Sacramento. \u003cem>Lorna Doone\u003c/em>. You could look it up. Black-and-white. Anyone can come up with an anecdote like that. There’s nothing particularly meaningful about that … that probably happens to every kid who goes to see their first movie. But I remember that moment to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>But that experience didn’t make you a filmmaker.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What made me a maker was Super 8. The generation coming up now, they don’t have their Super 8. It was the tractability, flexibility, mutability, portability, ease, comfort of Super 8 that anyone in high school would be doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You could borrow your best friend’s camera, or your parents might have a camera, and just go out and shoot. That’s probably it. But the found-footage thing, the Craig Baldwin thing, there is a story in the book about \u003cem>Stolen Movie\u003c/em>, which is playing at the Roxie [May 30] and \u003cem>FlickSkin\u003c/em>, the film that I made to get into the film program at [SF] State. I had my paintings in the Crocker Art Gallery in Sacramento. My mother probably sensed something, and she would drive me on a Saturday … many mothers do that, take their kids to art classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929709\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929709\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg\" alt=\"A blurry still from a movie, with a man in a red shirt with long blond hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"573\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1020x731.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-160x115.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-768x550.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1536x1101.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-2048x1468.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1920x1376.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from ‘Stolen Movie.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Then what made you different?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Good question. The subcultural thing [for one] … I was impoverished the whole time. I never went the pro route. Accident or nature or coincidence or God or whatever, I ended up having a roommate who had an uncle who ran a porn theater. I ended up sleeping in the projection booth. I saw what film was. Found film, to me —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>That is, film intended for one purpose —\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That I could re-use. But it was more the materiality. It could have been another way but I was in the porn field, I was close to the film, I was demystified, I was radicalized, I understood what it was, just light through a strip of celluloid. This was a public thing that people paid money to see, and it was nothing but that. And the way it was treated in that porn theater was not professional, you understand? It was devalued. It was degraded. It was the lowest, the gutter, and that’s what radicalized me. As a found-footage maker, I realized I could do that. For me, [film was] the artistic opportunity, the potential, the attraction, the allure, the eros, the desire to get your hands on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929717\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-13929717 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg\" alt=\"a young man in a black and white striped shirt is seen looking at film \" width=\"800\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-1020x700.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-768x527.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg 1494w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Craig Baldwin in his editing niche at the Russians, cutting RocketKitKongoKit (1986), circa 1984. \u003ccite>(Photographer unknown)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anything else you recall about that porn house?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a very famous theater on the corner of Jones and Golden Gate. It was more like a pickup joint. People would just be standing, the screen would be there and people would be walking around. There were seats, but you weren’t expected to sit down. I said, ‘This is almost like an installation.’ Naïve, you understand. [I realized] film is not untouchable, film is not above me, not something I can’t reach. It is something at my level, it is free, cheap, like what I do here. [Baldwin waves his hand.] All these pieces of furniture were just found on the street. I wouldn’t buy a piece of furniture. It was just the way our generation lived. [Or at least] the way I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The tactile experience of shooting and editing film has been replaced by digital equipment. So what is the meaning of an image now? How does a 20-year-old maker connect with image-making, and does it matter?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I just don’t know. It’s a rhetorical question. It’s more difficult for me to personally connect, which has something to do with my generation, but also has to do with my sensibility, which is more like a sculptor or a painter. It’s more assemblage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why Bruce Conner connected with me. \u003cem>A Movie\u003c/em> (Conner’s 1958 collage film that became a touchstone of experimental film) was part of an assemblage, part of an installation, of which there were a million things, the projector was part of it and the film was running on the projector. And he just said, “Let’s make this a standalone, let’s take the projector and the film and show it in a theater as opposed to a gallery.” That’s kind of an “aha” moment. Conner always identified himself as a sculptor, a visual artist. Moviemaker came way later in his career.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Viewers are somewhat more media-savvy than when you were editing shots from 1950s films into \u003cem>Tribulation 99\u003c/em> (1991). Do you think people trust images less than when you started out?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I never did trust it. I was always doing the fake news thing. Industrial films, educational films — for me the word is ideology. I was always trying to see through, X-ray, strip the whatever: capitalism, sexism, blah blah blah. I was radicalized. I happened to see the Bank of America burn in Isla Vista [in 1970] when I was 17 years old. I lived through it. For me, it was indulgent, silly, trivial to make films that weren’t addressing class war. That’s the dialectical materialism, that’s what you’re talking about. Class war almost seems like a quaint term, though I still believe in it. That’s what I’m still trying to get to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929711\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929711\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie with a sea monster\" width=\"800\" height=\"552\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1020x704.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-768x530.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1536x1060.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-2048x1413.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1920x1325.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘Tribulation 99.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>One of the pieces in the book describes a lifestyle that you came to embrace called “masochism on the margins.” \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not saying I change the world, or culture jam. Not that there’s just two paths, but by engagement with the more corporate model, which is the larger model, that doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you are going to be able to make a difference, either. It’s a lose-lose situation, I guess you could say. So I choose the grind-me-up, self-sacrifice, marginal, the first guy they shoot kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I always point to Jonas Salk, my hero. My father had polio. Big deal. He got through. And I did, because we had our polio shots. A small group of people can make a big difference. It’s not just elite people, like Salk certainly was. But people can propose ideas, and those people themselves might not be “successful,” but their ideas can live a little bit, down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I learned from the book that you have a work in progress called \u003cem>Invisible Insurrection\u003c/em>. What can you tell me about it?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not very far along. I’ll finish that film. It’s all down there [points to the basement]. I just haven’t had the time. I’m just crying, screaming, raging overwhelmed right now. It’s a little bit of a review of a cultural history, and this moment where there was a resistance against the Bomb and then there was the move to suburbia, which I’m a product of, and then there were the beatniks, and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happened is, there are particular humans that we can point to and say, “Well, that guy had a pretty good idea what was going on,” and [one] was William Burroughs. Now, how many movies are there about William Burroughs? A lot. In France, the same postwar, the same malaise, “something’s wrong, something’s being screwed up.” The generation there that comes up, that’s the same as Burroughs, had their coterie of thinkers that we might call the Situationists. So it’s a Situationist film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happens is Burroughs shoots his wife, ends up in Africa, writes \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em>, puts it together in Paris. Here’s Guy Debord, the guy who wrote \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em> (1967), which is also filled with quotes and aphorisms and citations — just like Burroughs. So these guys are developing a style which is a little bit reminiscent of everything we’ve been talking about today, which is this acknowledgement of philosophy and ideas that we have inherited that we think might be good, and putting together new combinations postwar, post-Bomb. They’re both writing [what] are arguably the most important books of our generation: \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929715\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929715\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie of a woman sitting looking into a microsope\" width=\"800\" height=\"611\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1020x779.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-160x122.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-768x587.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1536x1173.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1920x1466.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png 2040w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Baldwin’s ‘Spectres of the Spectrum.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What does your project do with those works?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I am doing is having a conversation, a fistfight, between Burroughs and Debord, set in ’59 in France. I have a trillion French-language films, you understand. The right period, but also a little bit self-reflexive and hilarious. But I could use the voices of Debord and Burroughs. And I can certainly use the actual words, that is to say, what they wrote. Technology has provided that for us: You can get more text than you want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I can actually have those guys talking. I could recreate something that never happened. They never met. The point is I’m bringing them together. I will be able to have this discussion about intellectual history, about philosophical discourse, but in a para-narrative way. I [just] made that up. We see not only the discussion between Burroughs and Debord that never happened, but also the meeting of these two generations, the subcultures, the undergrounds, the progenitors of the ‘60s. Planting the seeds of resistance. A way of creating this moment postwar, our generation, in which these guys hash it out, in an essay form but not in a written linguistic form — in an enacted, embodied, imagistic form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ takes place May 28–31 at the Roxie Theater in San Francisco, kicking off with a book launch on May 28, screenings of Baldwin’s work May 30–31, and in-person appearances by the filmmaker at all events. \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\">Tickets and more info here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The publication of a career-spanning book is marked with a retrospective at the Roxie. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705005448,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":40,"wordCount":2309},"headData":{"title":"‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin | KQED","description":"The publication of a career-spanning book is marked with a retrospective at the Roxie. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin","datePublished":"2023-05-26T17:50:49.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T20:37:28.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13929679/avant-to-live-is-a-monument-to-beloved-mission-filmmaker-craig-baldwin","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>An enjoyable exception to the usual prestige books about artists, \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!\u003c/em> evokes the iconoclastic personality of San Francisco’s preeminent underground filmmaker and The Other Cinema curator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Written and compiled by Bay Area artists and curators Brett Kashmere and Steve Polta (and just published by their respective organizations, INCITE Journal of Experimental Media and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcinematheque.org/avant-to-live-events/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">San Francisco Cinematheque\u003c/a>), the massive tome frontloads a veritable trove of reminiscences, anecdotes, interviews and tributes before presenting an array of critical analyses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more than 40 years, Craig Baldwin has reappropriated images from discarded and forgotten educational and industrial movies (found footage, in the vernacular of experimental film) to craft brilliant, hyper-dense 16mm films critiquing U.S. exceptionalism, colonialism, capitalism and moviemaking. Given that his works — \u003cem>Tribulation 99: Alien Anomalies Under America\u003c/em>, \u003cem>¡O No Coronado!\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Sonic Outlaws\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Spectres of the Spectrum\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Mock Up on Mu \u003c/em>— are subversive mashups of experimental documentary, science-fiction fantasia and essay film, it’s fitting that \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live\u003c/em> is a hybrid zine, scrapbook, academic treatise and alternate social history of post-1970s San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Roxie\u003c/a> hosts a celebration of the book Sunday, May 28 and a retrospective of Baldwin’s films May 30–31. I met the Mission’s whirling dervish at his home base, the Artists’ Television Access space on Valencia St., for a typically chatty, digressive conversation. Baldwin greeted me with a lament about the current state of the building, where he’s screened thousands of alternative films since the ‘80s, and a brief history of the punk artists who preceded him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929714\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png\" alt=\"a book cover in black and white that reads 'Craig Baldwin' in white and in red 'Avant to live!'\" width=\"800\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-160x204.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-768x980.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ was recently published by San Francisco Cinematheque and INCITE: Journal of Experimental Media. \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Baldwin:\u003c/strong> The history of this space [is that] it was too big — I think it was a bakery and a family could live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>KQED Arts:\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>A business in the front and the family lived upstairs.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s a brilliant idea. And you know what I call it? Live/work. [ATA and The Other] happened to be the destination space for people from the ‘burbs who would check this place out on a Saturday. You can’t get down the sidewalk. I’m not putting that down, by the way. I’m glad they come to the city. It’s too bad it doesn’t happen in their own neighborhoods but I’m glad to be presenting an alternative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we can hardly afford the rent. You know what’s two doors down? Dogue. If you want to serve your dog a $75 meal. Do you believe that? That is just m************ outrageous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I’m here on account of \u003cem>Avant to Live\u003c/em>, which has more love per page than the Kama Sutra.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like that. The writers are pouring love on me, if that’s what you mean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929710\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929710\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white film of a young woman with light hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"581\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1020x741.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-768x558.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1536x1116.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1920x1395.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg 1922w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘FlickSkin.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Do you recall a formative moment when motion pictures, moving images, captured you more than theater, sports writing and your other adolescent creative pursuits?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first movie I ever saw, at the Village Theater when I was growing up in Sacramento. \u003cem>Lorna Doone\u003c/em>. You could look it up. Black-and-white. Anyone can come up with an anecdote like that. There’s nothing particularly meaningful about that … that probably happens to every kid who goes to see their first movie. But I remember that moment to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>But that experience didn’t make you a filmmaker.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What made me a maker was Super 8. The generation coming up now, they don’t have their Super 8. It was the tractability, flexibility, mutability, portability, ease, comfort of Super 8 that anyone in high school would be doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You could borrow your best friend’s camera, or your parents might have a camera, and just go out and shoot. That’s probably it. But the found-footage thing, the Craig Baldwin thing, there is a story in the book about \u003cem>Stolen Movie\u003c/em>, which is playing at the Roxie [May 30] and \u003cem>FlickSkin\u003c/em>, the film that I made to get into the film program at [SF] State. I had my paintings in the Crocker Art Gallery in Sacramento. My mother probably sensed something, and she would drive me on a Saturday … many mothers do that, take their kids to art classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929709\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929709\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg\" alt=\"A blurry still from a movie, with a man in a red shirt with long blond hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"573\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1020x731.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-160x115.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-768x550.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1536x1101.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-2048x1468.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1920x1376.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from ‘Stolen Movie.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Then what made you different?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Good question. The subcultural thing [for one] … I was impoverished the whole time. I never went the pro route. Accident or nature or coincidence or God or whatever, I ended up having a roommate who had an uncle who ran a porn theater. I ended up sleeping in the projection booth. I saw what film was. Found film, to me —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>That is, film intended for one purpose —\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That I could re-use. But it was more the materiality. It could have been another way but I was in the porn field, I was close to the film, I was demystified, I was radicalized, I understood what it was, just light through a strip of celluloid. This was a public thing that people paid money to see, and it was nothing but that. And the way it was treated in that porn theater was not professional, you understand? It was devalued. It was degraded. It was the lowest, the gutter, and that’s what radicalized me. As a found-footage maker, I realized I could do that. For me, [film was] the artistic opportunity, the potential, the attraction, the allure, the eros, the desire to get your hands on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929717\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-13929717 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg\" alt=\"a young man in a black and white striped shirt is seen looking at film \" width=\"800\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-1020x700.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-768x527.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg 1494w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Craig Baldwin in his editing niche at the Russians, cutting RocketKitKongoKit (1986), circa 1984. \u003ccite>(Photographer unknown)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anything else you recall about that porn house?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a very famous theater on the corner of Jones and Golden Gate. It was more like a pickup joint. People would just be standing, the screen would be there and people would be walking around. There were seats, but you weren’t expected to sit down. I said, ‘This is almost like an installation.’ Naïve, you understand. [I realized] film is not untouchable, film is not above me, not something I can’t reach. It is something at my level, it is free, cheap, like what I do here. [Baldwin waves his hand.] All these pieces of furniture were just found on the street. I wouldn’t buy a piece of furniture. It was just the way our generation lived. [Or at least] the way I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The tactile experience of shooting and editing film has been replaced by digital equipment. So what is the meaning of an image now? How does a 20-year-old maker connect with image-making, and does it matter?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I just don’t know. It’s a rhetorical question. It’s more difficult for me to personally connect, which has something to do with my generation, but also has to do with my sensibility, which is more like a sculptor or a painter. It’s more assemblage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why Bruce Conner connected with me. \u003cem>A Movie\u003c/em> (Conner’s 1958 collage film that became a touchstone of experimental film) was part of an assemblage, part of an installation, of which there were a million things, the projector was part of it and the film was running on the projector. And he just said, “Let’s make this a standalone, let’s take the projector and the film and show it in a theater as opposed to a gallery.” That’s kind of an “aha” moment. Conner always identified himself as a sculptor, a visual artist. Moviemaker came way later in his career.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Viewers are somewhat more media-savvy than when you were editing shots from 1950s films into \u003cem>Tribulation 99\u003c/em> (1991). Do you think people trust images less than when you started out?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I never did trust it. I was always doing the fake news thing. Industrial films, educational films — for me the word is ideology. I was always trying to see through, X-ray, strip the whatever: capitalism, sexism, blah blah blah. I was radicalized. I happened to see the Bank of America burn in Isla Vista [in 1970] when I was 17 years old. I lived through it. For me, it was indulgent, silly, trivial to make films that weren’t addressing class war. That’s the dialectical materialism, that’s what you’re talking about. Class war almost seems like a quaint term, though I still believe in it. That’s what I’m still trying to get to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929711\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929711\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie with a sea monster\" width=\"800\" height=\"552\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1020x704.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-768x530.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1536x1060.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-2048x1413.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1920x1325.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘Tribulation 99.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>One of the pieces in the book describes a lifestyle that you came to embrace called “masochism on the margins.” \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not saying I change the world, or culture jam. Not that there’s just two paths, but by engagement with the more corporate model, which is the larger model, that doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you are going to be able to make a difference, either. It’s a lose-lose situation, I guess you could say. So I choose the grind-me-up, self-sacrifice, marginal, the first guy they shoot kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I always point to Jonas Salk, my hero. My father had polio. Big deal. He got through. And I did, because we had our polio shots. A small group of people can make a big difference. It’s not just elite people, like Salk certainly was. But people can propose ideas, and those people themselves might not be “successful,” but their ideas can live a little bit, down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I learned from the book that you have a work in progress called \u003cem>Invisible Insurrection\u003c/em>. What can you tell me about it?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not very far along. I’ll finish that film. It’s all down there [points to the basement]. I just haven’t had the time. I’m just crying, screaming, raging overwhelmed right now. It’s a little bit of a review of a cultural history, and this moment where there was a resistance against the Bomb and then there was the move to suburbia, which I’m a product of, and then there were the beatniks, and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happened is, there are particular humans that we can point to and say, “Well, that guy had a pretty good idea what was going on,” and [one] was William Burroughs. Now, how many movies are there about William Burroughs? A lot. In France, the same postwar, the same malaise, “something’s wrong, something’s being screwed up.” The generation there that comes up, that’s the same as Burroughs, had their coterie of thinkers that we might call the Situationists. So it’s a Situationist film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happens is Burroughs shoots his wife, ends up in Africa, writes \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em>, puts it together in Paris. Here’s Guy Debord, the guy who wrote \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em> (1967), which is also filled with quotes and aphorisms and citations — just like Burroughs. So these guys are developing a style which is a little bit reminiscent of everything we’ve been talking about today, which is this acknowledgement of philosophy and ideas that we have inherited that we think might be good, and putting together new combinations postwar, post-Bomb. They’re both writing [what] are arguably the most important books of our generation: \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929715\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929715\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie of a woman sitting looking into a microsope\" width=\"800\" height=\"611\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1020x779.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-160x122.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-768x587.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1536x1173.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1920x1466.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png 2040w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Baldwin’s ‘Spectres of the Spectrum.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What does your project do with those works?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I am doing is having a conversation, a fistfight, between Burroughs and Debord, set in ’59 in France. I have a trillion French-language films, you understand. The right period, but also a little bit self-reflexive and hilarious. But I could use the voices of Debord and Burroughs. And I can certainly use the actual words, that is to say, what they wrote. Technology has provided that for us: You can get more text than you want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I can actually have those guys talking. I could recreate something that never happened. They never met. The point is I’m bringing them together. I will be able to have this discussion about intellectual history, about philosophical discourse, but in a para-narrative way. I [just] made that up. We see not only the discussion between Burroughs and Debord that never happened, but also the meeting of these two generations, the subcultures, the undergrounds, the progenitors of the ‘60s. Planting the seeds of resistance. A way of creating this moment postwar, our generation, in which these guys hash it out, in an essay form but not in a written linguistic form — in an enacted, embodied, imagistic form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ takes place May 28–31 at the Roxie Theater in San Francisco, kicking off with a book launch on May 28, screenings of Baldwin’s work May 30–31, and in-person appearances by the filmmaker at all events. \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\">Tickets and more info here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13929679/avant-to-live-is-a-monument-to-beloved-mission-filmmaker-craig-baldwin","authors":["22"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_73","arts_74"],"tags":["arts_5053","arts_977","arts_1050","arts_1257","arts_989","arts_9879","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13929704","label":"arts_140"},"arts_13927554":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13927554","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13927554","score":null,"sort":[1681231436000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"barry-jenkins-nicholas-britell-interview-soundbox-san-francisco-symphony","title":"How to Write Film Music That Stops Time","publishDate":1681231436,"format":"standard","headTitle":"How to Write Film Music That Stops Time | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":140,"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 4.6875em;float: left;line-height: 0.733em;padding: 0.05em 0.1em 0 0;font-family: times, serif, georgia\">T\u003c/span>here’s a standout scene in \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, Barry Jenkins’ widely acclaimed 2016 coming-of-age film, that doesn’t have the typical “pivotal moment” hallmarks of an \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCQn_FkFElI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Oscars Best Picture winner\u003c/a>. There’s not a big speech. Not a lot really happens, even.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the scene in which Juan (Mahershala Ali) teaches Little (Alex Hibbert) how to swim is rich text for other reasons. There’s the painterly light, athletic camera work. The symbolism is somehow both striking and understated — a rare glimpse of Black masculinity as a nurturing force, as well as what Jenkins has called a “spiritual transference” between these two characters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the music. Bright, anxious violins pick up speed as the figurative baptism progresses; over the course of a two-minute piece, composer Nicholas Britell’s score reflects the beauty and danger of the ocean, as well as the complex sea of emotions in our young protagonist: determination, hope and fear. I dare you to find me someone who didn’t sit in the movie theater holding their breath for the entire scene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6yMItXePG8\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the seven years since \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>’s release, with films like \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em> and the limited series \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, the partnership between Jenkins and Britell has produced numerous breathtaking moments like this. Jenkins tells stories of Black America, consistently turning an artful, unflinching eye on protagonists who are limited or literally trapped by injustice, by poverty and incarceration. And while Jenkins’ writing and direction are deeply empathetic, it’s often Britell’s scores — soaring, evocative works that apply R&B and hip-hop production techniques to classical music — that grant these characters their full humanity, reminding us that even people living in the most tragic of circumstances experience a vast range of emotion, including love and yearning along with anguish.[aside postid='forum_2010101892493']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A horn line swells, and we remember — oh, right. Every single person I meet has an entire universe of pain and beauty and unfulfilled dreams swirling inside them at all times. And then we weep uncontrollably into our popcorn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Britell, a classically trained pianist, has been a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/About-SFS/Collaborative-Partners\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">collaborative partner\u003c/a>” with the San Francisco Symphony since 2018. But his April 14–15 events with Jenkins at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/soundbox\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">SoundBox\u003c/a>, with Symphony musicians performing works from \u003cem>Moonlight,\u003c/em> \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, will present his most personal collaboration yet with the organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: Barry, your projects have always shown a love of music, even going back to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/24154/medicine_for_melancholy\">\u003cem>Medicine for Melancholy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Can you talk about where music lives in your writing process? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> Music has always been part of it. I mean, I’ve always been surrounded by music — I grew up in a household where, even though we were so extremely poor, there was always music playing. Or I would go to the flea market and get tapes — and this is terrible as someone who now makes a living from copywritten material — but people would make these cassette tapes with all these different songs on them, and you could get a tape for like five bucks, as opposed to an album, which cost 15 or 20 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13844783']And I’ve always listened to music while I write. When I first got to college and started pursuing creative writing and working on film, I would go to this café to work. And between coffee, wine and music, I found that I could slip into a place where I could translate the feeling of what was happening in the scene in my head to the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was also when I was discovering the filmmakers who became foundational to my idea of what cinema was, people like Claire Denis and Wong Kar-wai, and they used music in a very open, very clear way. In film school, I was taught music is meant to be in the background of a film, which is kind of making it elevator music. So I was like, \u003cem>No, no, no:\u003c/em> I’ve seen films where you can use this combination of sound and images and score to really elevate what the character was feeling. That’s the place it’s always had for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927608\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"a black and white photo of a young Black man in a dark collared shirt with glasses, smiling at the camera \" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-768x509.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1536x1018.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-2048x1358.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1920x1273.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Barry Jenkins’ San Francisco-set debut feature, ‘Medicine for Melancholy,’ will be released by The Criterion Collection in June, with new commentary from the filmmaker. \u003ccite>(Matt Morris)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>You’ve both spoken about not wanting to tell the audience how to feel, that it’s more about music that sounds the way the characters feel — kind of achieving interiority through music. Which, especially as a non-musician, seems mystical to me. Can you talk about what it looks like to get into that headspace and compose for different characters, especially people with very different lived experiences from your own?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> It can \u003cem>feel\u003c/em> mystical; I also use the word “alchemy” a lot. And so much of it is about this incredibly close collaboration, searching \u003cem>together\u003c/em> for things — I’m never working alone. Which is why it’s so special that Barry and I are doing this show; we get into this stream of consciousness when we’re in the room together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, for example, Barry said “I’m hearing brass and horns.” So I started thinking about the scene where Tish and Fonny have finally been able to rent that apartment, and they’re in the street and they start shouting to the sky with joy. I think a lot about shapes. I feel that the shapes of things in music actually affect us all in similar ways. So, OK, I want the music to go upward — to shout to the sky. Well, what if it’s a trumpet shouting to the sky? And then I start doing experiments with brass, French horns, clarinet, trumpet, flugelhorn, piccolo trumpet, and I kind of go off into the wilderness and try things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, through experimenting together, we realized it was missing cellos. Like, \u003cem>oh, the cellos are the feeling of love.\u003c/em> And all of a sudden, if I take the chords that I was playing with brass but the cellos play them, everything feels different. It’s never, oh, what key signature is this, or what type of chord is this. It ultimately always comes back to feelings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmK71ZfaZO4\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audiences have these incredibly poignant, personal responses to these scores, where the music seems to help them access complicated feelings about their own lives. Have you seen \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWQ7neoBhCE\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">the comments\u003c/a> on “Agape” on YouTube?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> They’re nuts. (Laughs.) Nuts! Way more people have listened to that piece than have even heard of this film. Way more people are going to hear that song than will ever watch \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em>. And I remember being there at the moment of its creation, in this really diligent but simple process of chasing what that moment felt like, both within the film and within the characters’ lives. It’s this very aspirational moment, when Tish is at her most hopeful, like everything is on the table for this family. And Nick just did this thing where he had the song keep reaching \u003cem>up and up and up\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Barry Jenkins\"]‘[James] Baldwin was … bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.’[/pullquote]But the way that piece of music connects with people, and this is me saying this, not Nick — these are Black films and this is Black music. It really is. And it’s amazing to me there are white people all over the world, we’ve seen this on Instagram, who walk down the aisle to this piece of music. I say it’s Black music because what Mr. Baldwin was writing, and what Regina and Stephan and KiKi are doing in that sequence, is bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I get a little tipsy and I go read those comments on YouTube, I see that the whole journey of making that film, even if people only accessed it through hearing this one song, would have been worth it. Because the way people respond to the feeling of that music … I mean, sometimes it knocks me down. If you want to know the power, the effect, the legitimate movement that a piece of score can create, go look up that thing on YouTube and the things that complete strangers — who have no skin in the game on how successful this film is or isn’t! — and they’re just pouring themselves out about what this piece of music means to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927605\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927605\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a young white man with light brown hair in a black button-down shirt and glasses looks down away from the camera\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nicholas Britell’s other scores include collaborations with director Adam McKay, including ‘The Big Short’ and ‘Don’t Look Up,’ as well as the HBO show ‘Succession.’ \u003ccite>(Emma McIntyre)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> I’ll just add that the music that I write with Barry is unlike anything else that I write. In some ways, I think Barry lets me tap into different emotions, and there are certain feelings that I think we are both drawn to. And I get to figure out: what is the sound of that? So much of what we do is experimentation — Barry will like a kernel of something, so we follow that, but we don’t know where we’re going. Just that when we’re there, we’ll know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> were both so rooted in Miami and New York, respectively, the cities where they took place. But \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> takes us to so many different locations, and then also has surreal elements. How do you find the sound for something of that scope, especially without the anchor of a specific, singular time or place?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13897166']\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> The scale and scope and difficulty of \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was unlike anything I’d ever done. I remember Barry saying to me, you know, each state is a different state of mind for Cora — and we thought of it almost like different planets. Because that journey is unlike \u003cem>anything\u003c/em>. As a comparison, it’s not \u003cem>Succession,\u003c/em> where, from episode 1 to 2, we’re probably in New York City, probably in the Roy family. This is like we’re in a different \u003cem>universe\u003c/em>. We’re in a different dimension, possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the sonic experimentation, just the amount that we were going to push… we look at \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, where there was the idea of using \u003ca href=\"https://ra.co/features/4040\">chopped and screwed\u003c/a> as a technique, or in \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, where we’re taking the sounds of love and harming them so they’re broken and they become a sound of injustice. On \u003cem>Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, it was times 100. How do we push things to feel beyond what we can even imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, what is the architecture? Because if you establish a musical idea at the very beginning of a film, part of the beauty, hopefully, is that if it comes back later, you have a memory of having felt it — even just subconsciously. So multiplying that across 10 episodes, when do we echo back? I remember showing Barry some new ideas at one point, and he was like, ‘You know what? No new ideas. We’re done.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sUIo56q-Qw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was definitely less of a literal journey, but to me it was also a much more clear emotional one: every state is different, because Cora’s mental state has shifted in addition to the setting. What Nick said about planets — I love that because different planets have different atmospheres, and these soundscapes are like those atmospheres. Venus is not like Mars, you know, it’s got to be completely different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’re also responding to the world around us. [At one point during production] Nick and Caitlin, his wife, who’s a cellist, had moved out to L.A., and Nick, do you remember Caitlin took up this hobby of birdwatching?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell: \u003c/strong>She’s still doing it. She’s an avid birder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> She had all these feeders around, so there were these hummingbirds always around the studio. And I was thinking the other day, Nick, about the track “Fireflies.” And there’s a harp that’s played really fast, and to me, that’s the hummingbird wings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927602\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a crowd of people sits watching classical musicians perform in a dark club-like space with large artworks projected onto the walls and ceiling\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘SoundBox: Modern Sanctuary,’ conducted by Edwin Outwater in February 2020. \u003ccite>(Mike Grittani/Grittani Creative)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you want people to know going into these SoundBox shows?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> These performances are something Barry and I have never really done. While we’ve played \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> live to picture before with orchestras, we have never actually performed in the authentic forms of the film with the original orchestrations. This is something we’ve been talking about since these were first written — like, how could we do this? \u003cem>Can\u003c/em> we do this? Because, for example, \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> is as much an orchestration exercise, with these different instrument colors, as it is about these very special reverbs at times, where you hear the sounds sort of floating and soaring and swirling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>We have heard stories about the reverb quality of SoundBox and we are hoping to put it through its paces. We’ve heard it’s legit. And the cats that work there are out to prove to us that it’s legit, so we’re pushing the boundaries with this concert.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll also say — I moved to the Bay at a time in my life when I was incredibly down on myself, and I went through some ups and downs there. And I’d walk past the Symphony all the time, and I just never thought … There are going to be images of Black folks projected all throughout this show. These folks are going to be playing music that I think organically reflects the experience of Black people. And I just never, never thought there was a world in which that would ever happen. It’s gonna be very cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>‘SoundBox: In Conversation With Nicholas Britell and Barry Jenkins’ takes place at 9 p.m. on Friday, April 14 and Saturday, April 15 at the San Francisco Symphony’s SoundBox (300 Franklin St., San Francisco). Tickets start at $99; \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/Buy-Tickets/2022-23/SBX-NicholasBritell\">details here\u003c/a>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell discuss the alchemy behind their breathtaking scores for 'Moonlight' and 'If Beale Street Could Talk.'","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705005640,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":36,"wordCount":2569},"headData":{"title":"Q&A: Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell Discuss 'Moonlight,' 'If Beale Street Could Talk' | KQED","description":"The director and composer reveal what goes into a breathtaking film score. The two appear in San Francisco April 14–15.","ogTitle":"Barry Jenkins, Nicholas Britell, and Film Music That Stops Time","ogDescription":"The director and composer reveal what goes into a breathtaking film score. The two appear in San Francisco April 14–15.","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Barry Jenkins, Nicholas Britell, and Film Music That Stops Time","twDescription":"Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell discuss the alchemy of breathtaking film scores for 'Moonlight' and 'If Beale Street Could Talk.'","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Q&A: Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell Discuss 'Moonlight,' 'If Beale Street Could Talk' %%page%% %%sep%% KQED","socialDescription":"The director and composer reveal what goes into a breathtaking film score. The two appear in San Francisco April 14–15.","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"How to Write Film Music That Stops Time","datePublished":"2023-04-11T16:43:56.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T20:40:40.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"sticky":false,"templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13927554/barry-jenkins-nicholas-britell-interview-soundbox-san-francisco-symphony","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 4.6875em;float: left;line-height: 0.733em;padding: 0.05em 0.1em 0 0;font-family: times, serif, georgia\">T\u003c/span>here’s a standout scene in \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, Barry Jenkins’ widely acclaimed 2016 coming-of-age film, that doesn’t have the typical “pivotal moment” hallmarks of an \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCQn_FkFElI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Oscars Best Picture winner\u003c/a>. There’s not a big speech. Not a lot really happens, even.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the scene in which Juan (Mahershala Ali) teaches Little (Alex Hibbert) how to swim is rich text for other reasons. There’s the painterly light, athletic camera work. The symbolism is somehow both striking and understated — a rare glimpse of Black masculinity as a nurturing force, as well as what Jenkins has called a “spiritual transference” between these two characters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the music. Bright, anxious violins pick up speed as the figurative baptism progresses; over the course of a two-minute piece, composer Nicholas Britell’s score reflects the beauty and danger of the ocean, as well as the complex sea of emotions in our young protagonist: determination, hope and fear. I dare you to find me someone who didn’t sit in the movie theater holding their breath for the entire scene.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/z6yMItXePG8'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/z6yMItXePG8'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>In the seven years since \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>’s release, with films like \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em> and the limited series \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, the partnership between Jenkins and Britell has produced numerous breathtaking moments like this. Jenkins tells stories of Black America, consistently turning an artful, unflinching eye on protagonists who are limited or literally trapped by injustice, by poverty and incarceration. And while Jenkins’ writing and direction are deeply empathetic, it’s often Britell’s scores — soaring, evocative works that apply R&B and hip-hop production techniques to classical music — that grant these characters their full humanity, reminding us that even people living in the most tragic of circumstances experience a vast range of emotion, including love and yearning along with anguish.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"forum_2010101892493","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A horn line swells, and we remember — oh, right. Every single person I meet has an entire universe of pain and beauty and unfulfilled dreams swirling inside them at all times. And then we weep uncontrollably into our popcorn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Britell, a classically trained pianist, has been a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/About-SFS/Collaborative-Partners\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">collaborative partner\u003c/a>” with the San Francisco Symphony since 2018. But his April 14–15 events with Jenkins at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/soundbox\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">SoundBox\u003c/a>, with Symphony musicians performing works from \u003cem>Moonlight,\u003c/em> \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, will present his most personal collaboration yet with the organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: Barry, your projects have always shown a love of music, even going back to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/24154/medicine_for_melancholy\">\u003cem>Medicine for Melancholy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Can you talk about where music lives in your writing process? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> Music has always been part of it. I mean, I’ve always been surrounded by music — I grew up in a household where, even though we were so extremely poor, there was always music playing. Or I would go to the flea market and get tapes — and this is terrible as someone who now makes a living from copywritten material — but people would make these cassette tapes with all these different songs on them, and you could get a tape for like five bucks, as opposed to an album, which cost 15 or 20 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13844783","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And I’ve always listened to music while I write. When I first got to college and started pursuing creative writing and working on film, I would go to this café to work. And between coffee, wine and music, I found that I could slip into a place where I could translate the feeling of what was happening in the scene in my head to the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was also when I was discovering the filmmakers who became foundational to my idea of what cinema was, people like Claire Denis and Wong Kar-wai, and they used music in a very open, very clear way. In film school, I was taught music is meant to be in the background of a film, which is kind of making it elevator music. So I was like, \u003cem>No, no, no:\u003c/em> I’ve seen films where you can use this combination of sound and images and score to really elevate what the character was feeling. That’s the place it’s always had for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927608\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"a black and white photo of a young Black man in a dark collared shirt with glasses, smiling at the camera \" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-768x509.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1536x1018.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-2048x1358.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1920x1273.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Barry Jenkins’ San Francisco-set debut feature, ‘Medicine for Melancholy,’ will be released by The Criterion Collection in June, with new commentary from the filmmaker. \u003ccite>(Matt Morris)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>You’ve both spoken about not wanting to tell the audience how to feel, that it’s more about music that sounds the way the characters feel — kind of achieving interiority through music. Which, especially as a non-musician, seems mystical to me. Can you talk about what it looks like to get into that headspace and compose for different characters, especially people with very different lived experiences from your own?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> It can \u003cem>feel\u003c/em> mystical; I also use the word “alchemy” a lot. And so much of it is about this incredibly close collaboration, searching \u003cem>together\u003c/em> for things — I’m never working alone. Which is why it’s so special that Barry and I are doing this show; we get into this stream of consciousness when we’re in the room together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, for example, Barry said “I’m hearing brass and horns.” So I started thinking about the scene where Tish and Fonny have finally been able to rent that apartment, and they’re in the street and they start shouting to the sky with joy. I think a lot about shapes. I feel that the shapes of things in music actually affect us all in similar ways. So, OK, I want the music to go upward — to shout to the sky. Well, what if it’s a trumpet shouting to the sky? And then I start doing experiments with brass, French horns, clarinet, trumpet, flugelhorn, piccolo trumpet, and I kind of go off into the wilderness and try things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, through experimenting together, we realized it was missing cellos. Like, \u003cem>oh, the cellos are the feeling of love.\u003c/em> And all of a sudden, if I take the chords that I was playing with brass but the cellos play them, everything feels different. It’s never, oh, what key signature is this, or what type of chord is this. It ultimately always comes back to feelings.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/mmK71ZfaZO4'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/mmK71ZfaZO4'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audiences have these incredibly poignant, personal responses to these scores, where the music seems to help them access complicated feelings about their own lives. Have you seen \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWQ7neoBhCE\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">the comments\u003c/a> on “Agape” on YouTube?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> They’re nuts. (Laughs.) Nuts! Way more people have listened to that piece than have even heard of this film. Way more people are going to hear that song than will ever watch \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em>. And I remember being there at the moment of its creation, in this really diligent but simple process of chasing what that moment felt like, both within the film and within the characters’ lives. It’s this very aspirational moment, when Tish is at her most hopeful, like everything is on the table for this family. And Nick just did this thing where he had the song keep reaching \u003cem>up and up and up\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘[James] Baldwin was … bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"align":"right","size":"medium","citation":"Barry Jenkins","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>But the way that piece of music connects with people, and this is me saying this, not Nick — these are Black films and this is Black music. It really is. And it’s amazing to me there are white people all over the world, we’ve seen this on Instagram, who walk down the aisle to this piece of music. I say it’s Black music because what Mr. Baldwin was writing, and what Regina and Stephan and KiKi are doing in that sequence, is bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I get a little tipsy and I go read those comments on YouTube, I see that the whole journey of making that film, even if people only accessed it through hearing this one song, would have been worth it. Because the way people respond to the feeling of that music … I mean, sometimes it knocks me down. If you want to know the power, the effect, the legitimate movement that a piece of score can create, go look up that thing on YouTube and the things that complete strangers — who have no skin in the game on how successful this film is or isn’t! — and they’re just pouring themselves out about what this piece of music means to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927605\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927605\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a young white man with light brown hair in a black button-down shirt and glasses looks down away from the camera\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nicholas Britell’s other scores include collaborations with director Adam McKay, including ‘The Big Short’ and ‘Don’t Look Up,’ as well as the HBO show ‘Succession.’ \u003ccite>(Emma McIntyre)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> I’ll just add that the music that I write with Barry is unlike anything else that I write. In some ways, I think Barry lets me tap into different emotions, and there are certain feelings that I think we are both drawn to. And I get to figure out: what is the sound of that? So much of what we do is experimentation — Barry will like a kernel of something, so we follow that, but we don’t know where we’re going. Just that when we’re there, we’ll know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> were both so rooted in Miami and New York, respectively, the cities where they took place. But \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> takes us to so many different locations, and then also has surreal elements. How do you find the sound for something of that scope, especially without the anchor of a specific, singular time or place?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13897166","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> The scale and scope and difficulty of \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was unlike anything I’d ever done. I remember Barry saying to me, you know, each state is a different state of mind for Cora — and we thought of it almost like different planets. Because that journey is unlike \u003cem>anything\u003c/em>. As a comparison, it’s not \u003cem>Succession,\u003c/em> where, from episode 1 to 2, we’re probably in New York City, probably in the Roy family. This is like we’re in a different \u003cem>universe\u003c/em>. We’re in a different dimension, possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the sonic experimentation, just the amount that we were going to push… we look at \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, where there was the idea of using \u003ca href=\"https://ra.co/features/4040\">chopped and screwed\u003c/a> as a technique, or in \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, where we’re taking the sounds of love and harming them so they’re broken and they become a sound of injustice. On \u003cem>Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, it was times 100. How do we push things to feel beyond what we can even imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, what is the architecture? Because if you establish a musical idea at the very beginning of a film, part of the beauty, hopefully, is that if it comes back later, you have a memory of having felt it — even just subconsciously. So multiplying that across 10 episodes, when do we echo back? I remember showing Barry some new ideas at one point, and he was like, ‘You know what? No new ideas. We’re done.’\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/-sUIo56q-Qw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/-sUIo56q-Qw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was definitely less of a literal journey, but to me it was also a much more clear emotional one: every state is different, because Cora’s mental state has shifted in addition to the setting. What Nick said about planets — I love that because different planets have different atmospheres, and these soundscapes are like those atmospheres. Venus is not like Mars, you know, it’s got to be completely different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’re also responding to the world around us. [At one point during production] Nick and Caitlin, his wife, who’s a cellist, had moved out to L.A., and Nick, do you remember Caitlin took up this hobby of birdwatching?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell: \u003c/strong>She’s still doing it. She’s an avid birder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> She had all these feeders around, so there were these hummingbirds always around the studio. And I was thinking the other day, Nick, about the track “Fireflies.” And there’s a harp that’s played really fast, and to me, that’s the hummingbird wings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927602\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a crowd of people sits watching classical musicians perform in a dark club-like space with large artworks projected onto the walls and ceiling\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘SoundBox: Modern Sanctuary,’ conducted by Edwin Outwater in February 2020. \u003ccite>(Mike Grittani/Grittani Creative)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you want people to know going into these SoundBox shows?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> These performances are something Barry and I have never really done. While we’ve played \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> live to picture before with orchestras, we have never actually performed in the authentic forms of the film with the original orchestrations. This is something we’ve been talking about since these were first written — like, how could we do this? \u003cem>Can\u003c/em> we do this? Because, for example, \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> is as much an orchestration exercise, with these different instrument colors, as it is about these very special reverbs at times, where you hear the sounds sort of floating and soaring and swirling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>We have heard stories about the reverb quality of SoundBox and we are hoping to put it through its paces. We’ve heard it’s legit. And the cats that work there are out to prove to us that it’s legit, so we’re pushing the boundaries with this concert.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll also say — I moved to the Bay at a time in my life when I was incredibly down on myself, and I went through some ups and downs there. And I’d walk past the Symphony all the time, and I just never thought … There are going to be images of Black folks projected all throughout this show. These folks are going to be playing music that I think organically reflects the experience of Black people. And I just never, never thought there was a world in which that would ever happen. It’s gonna be very cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>‘SoundBox: In Conversation With Nicholas Britell and Barry Jenkins’ takes place at 9 p.m. on Friday, April 14 and Saturday, April 15 at the San Francisco Symphony’s SoundBox (300 Franklin St., San Francisco). Tickets start at $99; \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/Buy-Tickets/2022-23/SBX-NicholasBritell\">details here\u003c/a>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13927554/barry-jenkins-nicholas-britell-interview-soundbox-san-francisco-symphony","authors":["7237"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_835","arts_74","arts_69"],"tags":["arts_928","arts_15393","arts_1312","arts_10278","arts_977","arts_1050","arts_3087","arts_989","arts_1367","arts_8904","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13927583","label":"arts_140"},"arts_13925355":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13925355","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13925355","score":null,"sort":[1677009610000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"ashley-a-ross-moad-102703-photography-q-and-a","title":"Oakland Photographer Ashley A. Ross Reflects on Her Religious Upbringing in Debut MoAD Show","publishDate":1677009610,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Oakland Photographer Ashley A. Ross Reflects on Her Religious Upbringing in Debut MoAD Show | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":140,"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cp>Photographer \u003ca href=\"http://ashleyaross.com\">Ashley A. Ross\u003c/a> knew as early as high school that she wanted to pursue art as a career. After graduating from California College of the Arts in 2021, the Oakland artist has debuted her solo exhibition \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/exhibitions/10-27-03\">10/27/03\u003c/a>\u003c/em> at the Museum of the African Diaspora – up now through March 5 – as part of their \u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/projects/emerging-artists-program\">Emerging Artists program\u003c/a>. The series of staged photographs, intermingled with documents from her personal archive, reflect on her religious upbringing as an only child in a Black, Apostolic Christian household. KQED talked with Ross about the exhibition, her craft and the ways she’s exploring her point of view as an artist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ariana Proehl: Where did the concept for \u003cem>10/27/03\u003c/em> come from? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ashley A. Ross:\u003c/strong> The project began a few years ago when I came across some personal memorabilia I hadn’t seen in a while. There was a particular certificate describing “your new spiritual birthday” with the date “10/27/03” and it had scriptures on it. That sparked a lot for me because at that point in time I was in my early 20s, I was at CCA in my sophomore year. I was really searching for my calling and what I want to say with my art. It made me think about growing up in a religious environment with a specific doctrine that was heavily focused on this idea of rebirth, being “born again” and the concepts of sin and being a saint — all of these heavy concepts that we as adults still have a hard time trying to rationalize. And so it’s actually a certificate that I received when I was baptized and “born again” as a child. I pulled the name for the exhibition from that day and that certificate is actually in the show. I have a photo of me being baptized as a child, alongside portraits of my parents, portraits of this little girl who represents me as a child. And so I’m dealing with memory, the past and the present. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>So what’s your relationship with these religious beliefs today? And what are your reflections coming out of putting the show together?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, I don’t identify as a practicing Christian, but I think this project has been a great way for me to process these questions and these thoughts that I continue to have. People tend to have very strong opinions, either they’re against religion or really dedicated to their faith. But we don’t really talk about that in-between stage, you know, somebody who really doesn’t know, somebody who maybe has past experience with a religion and is kind of healing from that or is not far removed from that. Or somebody who is just like, “you know what? I don’t know what to think of it.” That’s what this project has meant for me, and it’s the conversation that I would like to have with other people. \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13925362\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1200px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200.jpg\" alt=\"Black-and-white image of a woman's figure draped in transparent fabric, standing in water\" width=\"1200\" height=\"1533\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13925362\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-800x1022.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-1020x1303.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-160x204.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-768x981.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ashely A. Ross, ‘Who’s That Young Girl Dressed in White.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the artist)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Can you talk about the decision you made to showcase this particular work as your debut – to have portraits, staged photographs and archival material included? And what you wanted to reveal about your aesthetic as a photographer? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have these black walls and how the lighting is situated, it really creates this intimate environment, kind of almost like you’re walking into somebody’s house, or in a silent film. A space that is very curated and intimate, which was my intention. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The staged black-and-white images were shot on film. There’s this technical element of analog photography that requires you to really slow down your process. With medium format, you have only 12 shots, depending on the camera — and film itself is an expensive process. So it requires you to sit and really look at what you’re trying to shoot and be precise with what each frame is going to show. So for me, that was the benefit of using the film camera and black-and-white. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I mentioned, my parents are included in the exhibition and that allowed me time to sit and talk with them as I’m photographing them. The little girl who represents me in that photograph is my little cousin. I used her as my model. Even spending time with her — which, she did an excellent job — allowed me to really look at my surroundings, like, how is this going to aid the project? So I think it has been a foundation for what I hope my visual esthetic continues to be. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How do you envision your work going forward and what themes are you excited to explore?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been thinking a lot about labor and ideas around capitalism. More specifically, Black labor and that history within this country. Honestly, our current climate right now, economically and socially, has really inspired a lot of these questions I’ve been having about labor, the workforce, you know, how we value other human beings and what they contribute to society. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as an artist, I feel like I’m in a kind of transitional stage right now. Like, what is my art practice right now? What do I want it to be? I’m definitely looking for my practice to be more interdisciplinary. I would love photography to be the foundation and the basis of my visual esthetic. But I would love to get into sculpture and installation. \u003ca href=\"https://www.theastergates.com/\">Theaster Gates\u003c/a> is an artist I really admire — how he creates sustainable ecosystems for people to be part of a community and communicate with each other. So I’m moving towards really creating experiences for when people come into a space, the exhibition is evolving. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>‘10/27/03’ is on view at the Museum of the African Diaspora in San Francisco through March 5. \u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/exhibitions/10-27-03\">Exhibition details here\u003c/a>. An in-person artist talk and reception takes place at the museum Saturday, March 4, 3–4 p.m. \u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/event/artist-talk-reception-emerging-artist-program-presents-ashley-a-ross-10-27-03\">Register to attend here\u003c/a>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The photographer’s first solo museum show deals with growing up as only child in a Black, Apostolic Christian household.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705005822,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":16,"wordCount":1055},"headData":{"title":"Ashley A. Ross at MoAD: Reflecting on a Religious Upbringing | KQED","description":"The photographer’s first solo museum show deals with growing up as only child in a Black, Apostolic Christian household.","ogTitle":"Oakland Photographer Ashley A. Ross Reflects on Her Religious Upbringing in Debut MoAD Show","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Oakland Photographer Ashley A. Ross Reflects on Her Religious Upbringing in Debut MoAD Show","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Ashley A. Ross at MoAD: Reflecting on a Religious Upbringing %%page%% %%sep%% KQED","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"Oakland Photographer Ashley A. Ross Reflects on Her Religious Upbringing in Debut MoAD Show","datePublished":"2023-02-21T20:00:10.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T20:43:42.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"sticky":false,"templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13925355/ashley-a-ross-moad-102703-photography-q-and-a","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Photographer \u003ca href=\"http://ashleyaross.com\">Ashley A. Ross\u003c/a> knew as early as high school that she wanted to pursue art as a career. After graduating from California College of the Arts in 2021, the Oakland artist has debuted her solo exhibition \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/exhibitions/10-27-03\">10/27/03\u003c/a>\u003c/em> at the Museum of the African Diaspora – up now through March 5 – as part of their \u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/projects/emerging-artists-program\">Emerging Artists program\u003c/a>. The series of staged photographs, intermingled with documents from her personal archive, reflect on her religious upbringing as an only child in a Black, Apostolic Christian household. KQED talked with Ross about the exhibition, her craft and the ways she’s exploring her point of view as an artist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ariana Proehl: Where did the concept for \u003cem>10/27/03\u003c/em> come from? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ashley A. Ross:\u003c/strong> The project began a few years ago when I came across some personal memorabilia I hadn’t seen in a while. There was a particular certificate describing “your new spiritual birthday” with the date “10/27/03” and it had scriptures on it. That sparked a lot for me because at that point in time I was in my early 20s, I was at CCA in my sophomore year. I was really searching for my calling and what I want to say with my art. It made me think about growing up in a religious environment with a specific doctrine that was heavily focused on this idea of rebirth, being “born again” and the concepts of sin and being a saint — all of these heavy concepts that we as adults still have a hard time trying to rationalize. And so it’s actually a certificate that I received when I was baptized and “born again” as a child. I pulled the name for the exhibition from that day and that certificate is actually in the show. I have a photo of me being baptized as a child, alongside portraits of my parents, portraits of this little girl who represents me as a child. And so I’m dealing with memory, the past and the present. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>So what’s your relationship with these religious beliefs today? And what are your reflections coming out of putting the show together?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, I don’t identify as a practicing Christian, but I think this project has been a great way for me to process these questions and these thoughts that I continue to have. People tend to have very strong opinions, either they’re against religion or really dedicated to their faith. But we don’t really talk about that in-between stage, you know, somebody who really doesn’t know, somebody who maybe has past experience with a religion and is kind of healing from that or is not far removed from that. Or somebody who is just like, “you know what? I don’t know what to think of it.” That’s what this project has meant for me, and it’s the conversation that I would like to have with other people. \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13925362\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1200px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200.jpg\" alt=\"Black-and-white image of a woman's figure draped in transparent fabric, standing in water\" width=\"1200\" height=\"1533\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13925362\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-800x1022.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-1020x1303.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-160x204.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/02/hi_res_Whos_That_Young_Girl_Dressed_In_White_AROSS_1200-768x981.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ashely A. Ross, ‘Who’s That Young Girl Dressed in White.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the artist)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Can you talk about the decision you made to showcase this particular work as your debut – to have portraits, staged photographs and archival material included? And what you wanted to reveal about your aesthetic as a photographer? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have these black walls and how the lighting is situated, it really creates this intimate environment, kind of almost like you’re walking into somebody’s house, or in a silent film. A space that is very curated and intimate, which was my intention. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The staged black-and-white images were shot on film. There’s this technical element of analog photography that requires you to really slow down your process. With medium format, you have only 12 shots, depending on the camera — and film itself is an expensive process. So it requires you to sit and really look at what you’re trying to shoot and be precise with what each frame is going to show. So for me, that was the benefit of using the film camera and black-and-white. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I mentioned, my parents are included in the exhibition and that allowed me time to sit and talk with them as I’m photographing them. The little girl who represents me in that photograph is my little cousin. I used her as my model. Even spending time with her — which, she did an excellent job — allowed me to really look at my surroundings, like, how is this going to aid the project? So I think it has been a foundation for what I hope my visual esthetic continues to be. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How do you envision your work going forward and what themes are you excited to explore?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been thinking a lot about labor and ideas around capitalism. More specifically, Black labor and that history within this country. Honestly, our current climate right now, economically and socially, has really inspired a lot of these questions I’ve been having about labor, the workforce, you know, how we value other human beings and what they contribute to society. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as an artist, I feel like I’m in a kind of transitional stage right now. Like, what is my art practice right now? What do I want it to be? I’m definitely looking for my practice to be more interdisciplinary. I would love photography to be the foundation and the basis of my visual esthetic. But I would love to get into sculpture and installation. \u003ca href=\"https://www.theastergates.com/\">Theaster Gates\u003c/a> is an artist I really admire — how he creates sustainable ecosystems for people to be part of a community and communicate with each other. So I’m moving towards really creating experiences for when people come into a space, the exhibition is evolving. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>‘10/27/03’ is on view at the Museum of the African Diaspora in San Francisco through March 5. \u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/exhibitions/10-27-03\">Exhibition details here\u003c/a>. An in-person artist talk and reception takes place at the museum Saturday, March 4, 3–4 p.m. \u003ca href=\"https://www.moadsf.org/event/artist-talk-reception-emerging-artist-program-presents-ashley-a-ross-10-27-03\">Register to attend here\u003c/a>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13925355/ashley-a-ross-moad-102703-photography-q-and-a","authors":["11296"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_70"],"tags":["arts_1987","arts_822","arts_989","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13925363","label":"arts_140"},"arts_13921650":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13921650","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13921650","score":null,"sort":[1668630735000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"the-backyard-richmond-outdoor-restaurant-hardware-store-burgers-breakfast-sandwiches","title":"A New Outdoor Restaurant Promises Comfort Food and Music — Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond","publishDate":1668630735,"format":"standard","headTitle":"A New Outdoor Restaurant Promises Comfort Food and Music — Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>¡Hella Hungry! is a column about Bay Area foodmakers, exploring the region’s culinary cultures through the mouth of a first-generation local.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not every day that an outdoor dining spot pops up in the back cuts of Richmond. But near the Chevron refinery and train yards, tucked between the marina’s port and Highway 580, you’ll find a new gathering place for food, drinks and live music: \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/richmondbackyard/\">the Backyard\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hidden in an unassuming lot behind the \u003ca href=\"https://www.acehardware.com/store-details/17792\">Whale Point Marine & Hardware\u003c/a> store — where day laborers, fishermen and construction workers pull up for specialty work wear and supplies — the Backyard feels like a quirky oasis surrounded by industrial grit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With lawn games, spacious outdoor seating, a music system that slaps, a large stage, palm trees and splashes of vibrant color that pop in contrast to the surrounding steel and chain-link fences, the venue promises to be a fun, family-friendly place to chill while grubbing on burgers, sandwiches and small shared bites. There’s a plan to project movies at night, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the Backyard’s grand opening two weeks ago, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/khruangbin/\">Khruangbin\u003c/a>’s psychedelic guitar riffs blared from surrounding speakers to a small crowd of patrons, who — like me — lined up outside of the business’s converted Airstream trailer to order lunch. Even on its first day, the spot was already serving as a restful gathering place for construction workers, young parents, elderly couples and anyone else who needed a break. As 16-wheelers rumbled along Cutting Boulevard, I soaked in a rare beam of sunshine and grubbed on “the Backyard Burger,” a classic cheeseburger with pickled onions and special house sauce served on an Acme bun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all felt appropriately Richmond — seeing cranes and shipping containers across the street while enjoying a no-frills burger that was cooked up in a food truck next to a gravelly lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13921652\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13921652\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a burger and order of fries on a paper tray on a table at an outdoor eatery in Richmond\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Backyard Burger is a staple menu item. \u003ccite>(Alan Chazaro)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Backyard’s arrival signals the addition of yet another food joint outside of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101887986/exploring-richmonds-taco-corridor-and-more-with-luke-tsai\">Richmond’s traditional food corridors\u003c/a> like 23rd St., where Mexican and Central American flavors are as abundant as they are in the Mission and Fruitvale. It’s a sign of Richmond’s growing craft food and beverage scene happening along the city’s periphery, where small businesses like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13914400/el-garage-armistice-brewing-mangonada-beer-richmond\">Armistice Brewing\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/eastbrotherbeer/\">East Brother Beer\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/explore/locations/1035426537/far-west-cider-co/\">Far West Cider\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/rockyislandoysterco/\">Rocky Island Oyster Co.\u003c/a> have all found a home, despite being relatively out of sight and off the grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As with many independent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101891054/finding-amazing-food-in-unlikely-places\">food businesses that are located in unexpected places\u003c/a>, the Backyard runs the risk of being overlooked (see: Black Star Pirate BBQ, the barbecue destination in nearby Point San Pablo that \u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2022/10/04/black-star-pirate-bbq-in-richmonds-san-pablo-harbor-to-close-in-november/\">recently lost its lease\u003c/a>). But the Backyard owner Emmet Kauffman, a San Francisco born-and-bred entrepreneur, is used to the grind and ready to embrace the challenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s what the painter-turned-backyard-chef has to say about Richmond’s latest spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">********\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>ALAN CHAZARO: \u003c/b>Congratulations on opening this month. Tell us about the Backyard and your vision for this new space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>EMMET KAUFFMAN:\u003c/b> I want the Backyard to be a place for people to feel comfortable to come and not just have to buy a burger. If you need a place to hang out with your kids and let them run around and you want some small bites, you can do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The menu right now is simple, tight and delicious. I’m focusing on those hearty, number one items that people want. We have a solid breakfast menu in an industrial area. This is for your working-class people. You can pull up and get a breakfast sandwich with cheddar cheese, fluffy egg and sausage or bacon. You can add avocado and other toppings. We also have a breakfast box which is a deconstructed breakfast sandwich, with more eggs and a hash brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For lunch, we currently have two solid burgers: a Santa Fe burger and the Backyard burger. We have a BLT and a grilled cheese, too. We’re using Acme Bread from Berkeley, which is delicious. We also serve tartines [the restaurant’s take on a bruschetta], and we’re getting ready to expand that soon. Currently we have the margherita tartine. That’s my speciality: a bruschetta with goat cheese, cherry tomatoes, garlic, basil, balsamic. It’s like a fresh pizza. We also have avocado [toast] — micro greens, sauteed tomatoes, honey drizzle. We offer charcuterie boards, too — we call it a “cutting board,” since we’re on Cutting Blvd. in Richmond — but only on the weekends. It serves about four — a full spread with brie, salami, nuts, fruits. Something fun to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My dream restaurant would be like something in Barcelona. A full spread, tapas style. Fancy breads, tartines. That’s the direction we’re going in, and we’re just settling into our capacity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>When did your interest in food making begin?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was born and raised in San Francisco, and I was never the best at school. My mom tried getting me in programs that I could click with. She knew I had a passion for cooking. She got me into a program in Marin. They did an event at the Fillmore Jazz Festival when I was 17. I worked with Chef David Lawrence at \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/1300onfillmore/\">1300 on Fillmore\u003c/a>, and he spotted me out of everyone and told me to come back the next day. He had me make sweet potato gnocchi. I was a senior in high school, and he hired me to work on the line on the weekends without prior experience. That was it for me. I was there for three and a half years. In between that, my dad had his house remodeled, and the paint contractor was looking for workers. I got a job at a painting company when I was 19 and was working both jobs, 80- to 90-hour weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13921654\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-13921654 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-800x533.jpg\" alt='a large mural that reads \"the Backyard\" is painted on the side of a wall in a large, outdoor space to eat' width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Owner Emmet Kauffman, who used to be a painter, created the mural for the Backyard. \u003ccite>(Alan Chazaro)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How did your work as a painter complement your growth in the food industry?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I went into painting full time and started managing a paint company [in San Francisco] at 19. I had a ton of experience, for about three years. Then I stopped painting and worked at Alexander’s Steakhouse, which had a Michelin star at the time. I got experience there, then joined the California National Guard. I focused on my military training. When I was 21, I started my own painting company [\u003ca href=\"http://kmanskreations.com/\">Kman’s Kreations\u003c/a>] and was in the National Guard for six years. I kept running my paint company for 10 years. COVID shook that up, and I wanted to rethink things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was priced out of San Francisco. A few years ago I moved to Richmond and saw an opportunity. The military allowed me to move to Richmond with the VA Loan. I fell in love here and took a leap by going back to my roots and passion with cooking. I’ve had over 10 years of experience running a business, building employees, working with clients and customers. This is my new passion project at 31. I still have time to fail (laughs). Food is the best kind of building. You can build it and then eat it and taste it. You can tweak it. It’s a form of art. It reminds me of painting in a way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do you still operate your painting business in San Francisco?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>COVID hit, and everyone went their own ways. I continued working on my own for the past two years. I got a text the other day to come paint a house (laughs). I actually have a product I invented called \u003ca href=\"https://www.sprayersaver.com/\">Sprayer Saver\u003c/a>. It’s a simple product that my brother and I started. It holds your bucket at an angle so you can get all that paint when you’re using a paint sprayer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Is that how you ended up behind the Whale Point Marine & Hardware store? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID='arts_13909648,arts_13914400,arts_13920831']Definitely. I’ve spent a lot of money at that hardware store (laughs). When I had the idea of creating [the Backyard], I was looking at other areas, but this area in Richmond was perfect. There is a lot getting built and bought very quickly here. I had a relationship with Jay [owner of Whale Point & Marine Hardware] because of my experience in painting. They also sell my product [Sprayer Saver]. He shot my idea down at first, but then a few days later he changed his mind and was down. That was it. I signed a contract and built it out as quickly as possible. It took me five months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I did everything by myself: the fence, the mural, digging the palm trees, putting up the pergola and the foundation, moving everything, setting up the food trailers. It’s a true passion project. My dad would come out and water the palm trees when I was out of town. My brother helped put the fence together. My family is a big support. They’re all in San Francisco still but helped me get here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What other events and surprises are you planning for the Backyard? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a week or two we’d like to book some live musicians. We’re figuring out a movie aspect as well. There are old, funky movies from the ’40s and ’50s that are in the public domain that we could project once it gets dark. The overall feel that I really want our neighbors to get is this being their own backyard. This is a regular spot to just hang out. No need to spend a ton of money when you go out. We’ll have bands, beer and wine soon. We want this to be a space that can be rented for events, with custom menus, too. We can create a special menu for you. Stuff like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13921651\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13921651\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"an order of avocado toast is served on a paper tray\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The avocado tartine is topped with micro greens, sautéed tomatoes, avocado and honey drizzle. \u003ccite>(Alan Chazaro)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What do you like about living in Richmond compared to San Francisco? How did you end up on this side of the Bay Bridge?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a better way to see the City. I didn’t have a ton of money, but enough to get a starter home here. I was driving around the Bay looking at homes, and I liked Richmond the most, especially down by the Marina. The opportunity presented itself, and I’m glad I ended up here. It reminds me of the Dogpatch [in San Francisco]. About 20 years ago [in what’s now Dogpatch], you could climb into abandoned industrial buildings. I always had a fondness for that. But now it’s like a hotspot in the city. That’s crazy to me. That’s how I see Richmond as a whole, from the industrial side. It’s like the last holdout in the Bay Area. There’s an opportunity for growth. That whole ferry area is growing. I have a fondness for what Frisco used to be, and this reminds me of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What motivates you to run a food business in the Bay Area, despite the high costs?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Seven generations in California. Our great-great-grandfather was the 13th senator of California. My mom was born in San Francisco. This runs in my blood. My blood runs gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12904247 aligncenter\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"400\" height=\"39\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-160x16.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-240x23.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-375x37.jpg 375w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/richmondbackyard/\">\u003ci>The Backyard\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> is located at 205 Cutting Blvd., Richmond, behind Whale Point Marine & Hardware. It’s open Mon. through Thu. 8 a.m.–4 p.m. and Fri. through Sun. 8 a.m.–6 p.m.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The Backyard brings corn hole, burgers and breakfast sandwiches to an industrial part of the city.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705006153,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":35,"wordCount":2010},"headData":{"title":"The Backyard Promises Comfort Food and Music Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond | KQED","description":"The Backyard brings corn hole, burgers and breakfast sandwiches to an industrial part of the city.","ogTitle":"A New Outdoor Restaurant Promises Comfort Food and Music — Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"A New Outdoor Restaurant Promises Comfort Food and Music — Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"The Backyard Promises Comfort Food and Music Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond %%page%% %%sep%% KQED","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"A New Outdoor Restaurant Promises Comfort Food and Music — Behind a Hardware Store in Richmond","datePublished":"2022-11-16T20:32:15.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T20:49:13.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"source":"¡HELLA HUNGRY!","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/hella-hungry","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","path":"/arts/13921650/the-backyard-richmond-outdoor-restaurant-hardware-store-burgers-breakfast-sandwiches","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>¡Hella Hungry! is a column about Bay Area foodmakers, exploring the region’s culinary cultures through the mouth of a first-generation local.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not every day that an outdoor dining spot pops up in the back cuts of Richmond. But near the Chevron refinery and train yards, tucked between the marina’s port and Highway 580, you’ll find a new gathering place for food, drinks and live music: \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/richmondbackyard/\">the Backyard\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hidden in an unassuming lot behind the \u003ca href=\"https://www.acehardware.com/store-details/17792\">Whale Point Marine & Hardware\u003c/a> store — where day laborers, fishermen and construction workers pull up for specialty work wear and supplies — the Backyard feels like a quirky oasis surrounded by industrial grit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With lawn games, spacious outdoor seating, a music system that slaps, a large stage, palm trees and splashes of vibrant color that pop in contrast to the surrounding steel and chain-link fences, the venue promises to be a fun, family-friendly place to chill while grubbing on burgers, sandwiches and small shared bites. There’s a plan to project movies at night, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the Backyard’s grand opening two weeks ago, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/khruangbin/\">Khruangbin\u003c/a>’s psychedelic guitar riffs blared from surrounding speakers to a small crowd of patrons, who — like me — lined up outside of the business’s converted Airstream trailer to order lunch. Even on its first day, the spot was already serving as a restful gathering place for construction workers, young parents, elderly couples and anyone else who needed a break. As 16-wheelers rumbled along Cutting Boulevard, I soaked in a rare beam of sunshine and grubbed on “the Backyard Burger,” a classic cheeseburger with pickled onions and special house sauce served on an Acme bun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all felt appropriately Richmond — seeing cranes and shipping containers across the street while enjoying a no-frills burger that was cooked up in a food truck next to a gravelly lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13921652\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13921652\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a burger and order of fries on a paper tray on a table at an outdoor eatery in Richmond\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_burger.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Backyard Burger is a staple menu item. \u003ccite>(Alan Chazaro)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Backyard’s arrival signals the addition of yet another food joint outside of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101887986/exploring-richmonds-taco-corridor-and-more-with-luke-tsai\">Richmond’s traditional food corridors\u003c/a> like 23rd St., where Mexican and Central American flavors are as abundant as they are in the Mission and Fruitvale. It’s a sign of Richmond’s growing craft food and beverage scene happening along the city’s periphery, where small businesses like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13914400/el-garage-armistice-brewing-mangonada-beer-richmond\">Armistice Brewing\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/eastbrotherbeer/\">East Brother Beer\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/explore/locations/1035426537/far-west-cider-co/\">Far West Cider\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/rockyislandoysterco/\">Rocky Island Oyster Co.\u003c/a> have all found a home, despite being relatively out of sight and off the grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As with many independent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101891054/finding-amazing-food-in-unlikely-places\">food businesses that are located in unexpected places\u003c/a>, the Backyard runs the risk of being overlooked (see: Black Star Pirate BBQ, the barbecue destination in nearby Point San Pablo that \u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2022/10/04/black-star-pirate-bbq-in-richmonds-san-pablo-harbor-to-close-in-november/\">recently lost its lease\u003c/a>). But the Backyard owner Emmet Kauffman, a San Francisco born-and-bred entrepreneur, is used to the grind and ready to embrace the challenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s what the painter-turned-backyard-chef has to say about Richmond’s latest spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">********\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>ALAN CHAZARO: \u003c/b>Congratulations on opening this month. Tell us about the Backyard and your vision for this new space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>EMMET KAUFFMAN:\u003c/b> I want the Backyard to be a place for people to feel comfortable to come and not just have to buy a burger. If you need a place to hang out with your kids and let them run around and you want some small bites, you can do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The menu right now is simple, tight and delicious. I’m focusing on those hearty, number one items that people want. We have a solid breakfast menu in an industrial area. This is for your working-class people. You can pull up and get a breakfast sandwich with cheddar cheese, fluffy egg and sausage or bacon. You can add avocado and other toppings. We also have a breakfast box which is a deconstructed breakfast sandwich, with more eggs and a hash brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For lunch, we currently have two solid burgers: a Santa Fe burger and the Backyard burger. We have a BLT and a grilled cheese, too. We’re using Acme Bread from Berkeley, which is delicious. We also serve tartines [the restaurant’s take on a bruschetta], and we’re getting ready to expand that soon. Currently we have the margherita tartine. That’s my speciality: a bruschetta with goat cheese, cherry tomatoes, garlic, basil, balsamic. It’s like a fresh pizza. We also have avocado [toast] — micro greens, sauteed tomatoes, honey drizzle. We offer charcuterie boards, too — we call it a “cutting board,” since we’re on Cutting Blvd. in Richmond — but only on the weekends. It serves about four — a full spread with brie, salami, nuts, fruits. Something fun to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My dream restaurant would be like something in Barcelona. A full spread, tapas style. Fancy breads, tartines. That’s the direction we’re going in, and we’re just settling into our capacity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>When did your interest in food making begin?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was born and raised in San Francisco, and I was never the best at school. My mom tried getting me in programs that I could click with. She knew I had a passion for cooking. She got me into a program in Marin. They did an event at the Fillmore Jazz Festival when I was 17. I worked with Chef David Lawrence at \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/1300onfillmore/\">1300 on Fillmore\u003c/a>, and he spotted me out of everyone and told me to come back the next day. He had me make sweet potato gnocchi. I was a senior in high school, and he hired me to work on the line on the weekends without prior experience. That was it for me. I was there for three and a half years. In between that, my dad had his house remodeled, and the paint contractor was looking for workers. I got a job at a painting company when I was 19 and was working both jobs, 80- to 90-hour weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13921654\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-13921654 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-800x533.jpg\" alt='a large mural that reads \"the Backyard\" is painted on the side of a wall in a large, outdoor space to eat' width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_mural.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Owner Emmet Kauffman, who used to be a painter, created the mural for the Backyard. \u003ccite>(Alan Chazaro)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How did your work as a painter complement your growth in the food industry?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I went into painting full time and started managing a paint company [in San Francisco] at 19. I had a ton of experience, for about three years. Then I stopped painting and worked at Alexander’s Steakhouse, which had a Michelin star at the time. I got experience there, then joined the California National Guard. I focused on my military training. When I was 21, I started my own painting company [\u003ca href=\"http://kmanskreations.com/\">Kman’s Kreations\u003c/a>] and was in the National Guard for six years. I kept running my paint company for 10 years. COVID shook that up, and I wanted to rethink things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was priced out of San Francisco. A few years ago I moved to Richmond and saw an opportunity. The military allowed me to move to Richmond with the VA Loan. I fell in love here and took a leap by going back to my roots and passion with cooking. I’ve had over 10 years of experience running a business, building employees, working with clients and customers. This is my new passion project at 31. I still have time to fail (laughs). Food is the best kind of building. You can build it and then eat it and taste it. You can tweak it. It’s a form of art. It reminds me of painting in a way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do you still operate your painting business in San Francisco?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>COVID hit, and everyone went their own ways. I continued working on my own for the past two years. I got a text the other day to come paint a house (laughs). I actually have a product I invented called \u003ca href=\"https://www.sprayersaver.com/\">Sprayer Saver\u003c/a>. It’s a simple product that my brother and I started. It holds your bucket at an angle so you can get all that paint when you’re using a paint sprayer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Is that how you ended up behind the Whale Point Marine & Hardware store? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13909648,arts_13914400,arts_13920831","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Definitely. I’ve spent a lot of money at that hardware store (laughs). When I had the idea of creating [the Backyard], I was looking at other areas, but this area in Richmond was perfect. There is a lot getting built and bought very quickly here. I had a relationship with Jay [owner of Whale Point & Marine Hardware] because of my experience in painting. They also sell my product [Sprayer Saver]. He shot my idea down at first, but then a few days later he changed his mind and was down. That was it. I signed a contract and built it out as quickly as possible. It took me five months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I did everything by myself: the fence, the mural, digging the palm trees, putting up the pergola and the foundation, moving everything, setting up the food trailers. It’s a true passion project. My dad would come out and water the palm trees when I was out of town. My brother helped put the fence together. My family is a big support. They’re all in San Francisco still but helped me get here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What other events and surprises are you planning for the Backyard? \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a week or two we’d like to book some live musicians. We’re figuring out a movie aspect as well. There are old, funky movies from the ’40s and ’50s that are in the public domain that we could project once it gets dark. The overall feel that I really want our neighbors to get is this being their own backyard. This is a regular spot to just hang out. No need to spend a ton of money when you go out. We’ll have bands, beer and wine soon. We want this to be a space that can be rented for events, with custom menus, too. We can create a special menu for you. Stuff like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13921651\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13921651\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"an order of avocado toast is served on a paper tray\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/11/backyard_avocado_toast.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The avocado tartine is topped with micro greens, sautéed tomatoes, avocado and honey drizzle. \u003ccite>(Alan Chazaro)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What do you like about living in Richmond compared to San Francisco? How did you end up on this side of the Bay Bridge?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a better way to see the City. I didn’t have a ton of money, but enough to get a starter home here. I was driving around the Bay looking at homes, and I liked Richmond the most, especially down by the Marina. The opportunity presented itself, and I’m glad I ended up here. It reminds me of the Dogpatch [in San Francisco]. About 20 years ago [in what’s now Dogpatch], you could climb into abandoned industrial buildings. I always had a fondness for that. But now it’s like a hotspot in the city. That’s crazy to me. That’s how I see Richmond as a whole, from the industrial side. It’s like the last holdout in the Bay Area. There’s an opportunity for growth. That whole ferry area is growing. I have a fondness for what Frisco used to be, and this reminds me of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What motivates you to run a food business in the Bay Area, despite the high costs?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Seven generations in California. Our great-great-grandfather was the 13th senator of California. My mom was born in San Francisco. This runs in my blood. My blood runs gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12904247 aligncenter\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"400\" height=\"39\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-160x16.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-240x23.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-375x37.jpg 375w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/richmondbackyard/\">\u003ci>The Backyard\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> is located at 205 Cutting Blvd., Richmond, behind Whale Point Marine & Hardware. It’s open Mon. through Thu. 8 a.m.–4 p.m. and Fri. through Sun. 8 a.m.–6 p.m.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13921650/the-backyard-richmond-outdoor-restaurant-hardware-store-burgers-breakfast-sandwiches","authors":["11748"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_835","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_10589","arts_10278","arts_1297","arts_17573","arts_989","arts_2479","arts_1146"],"featImg":"arts_13921653","label":"source_arts_13921650"},"arts_13921460":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13921460","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13921460","score":null,"sort":[1668036003000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"nigella-lawson-cookbook-cook-eat-repeat-book-tour-san-francisco","title":"Nigella Lawson's New Cookbook Leans Into the Pleasure of Home Food","publishDate":1668036003,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Nigella Lawson’s New Cookbook Leans Into the Pleasure of Home Food | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>Sure, America might have a whole gamut of food celebrities: David Chang with his hard-edged braggadocio, Alton Brown’s affable nerdiness, Ina Garten and her aspirational East Hampton aesthetic. But we don’t have anyone quite like Nigella Lawson — or, simply, “Nigella,” as the London-born-and-raised cookbook author and television chef is known in the U.K., where her iconic status is hard to overstate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 20-plus years since she wrote her debut cookbook \u003ci>How to Eat\u003c/i> (1998), Lawson has built up a dedicated fanbase by being an outspoken proponent of the sensory pleasures that can be found in cooking and eating. She is “Lady Bountiful, a sensualist celebrator of appetite,” as a recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/oct/10/nigella-lawson-i-didnt-think-id-be-a-mended-person-but-i-am\">\u003ci>Guardian \u003c/i>profile\u003c/a> put it. A journalist by training, Lawson speaks and writes about food with a poet’s ear for language in even the most seemingly tossed-off of comments. Who can forget the time when, as a guest judge on \u003ci>Top Chef\u003c/i>, she described a panna cotta as having the “quiver of a 17th century courtesan’s inner thigh”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Cook, Eat, Repeat\u003c/i>, Lawson’s latest collection of essays and recipes, is packed with similarly lovely, discursive writing. It’s organized around a handful of wide-ranging themes and ingredients that interest her. Instead of having, say, a section for breakfast recipes and another for dessert, there’s a chapter on why she hates the term “guilty pleasure” — and an accompanying set of recipes that instead lean \u003ci>into \u003c/i>the pleasure. There’s an entire chapter’s worth of anchovy recipes. And yet another on rhubarb.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Written mostly during the early months of the pandemic, the book — and Lawson’s BBC cooking show of the same name — talks about cooking not as some big performance that you put on for the sake of others, but rather a set of small, repeated tasks that you weave into the course of your day. Something modest that’s worth celebrating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The book was first released in the U.S. in April of last year — right when the Delta variant surge made it unsafe to launch an overseas publicity blitz. So, now, Lawson’s making up for lost time with an extended book tour that arrives at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater on Monday, Nov. 14.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of that appearance, I chatted with Lawson via Zoom about her love of “ugly” brown foods, the craft of recipe writing and her favorite Bay Area food discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LUKE TSAI: \u003c/b>I love that the book opens with this meditation on the literary possibilities of recipe writing, starting with your admiration of Aldoux Huxley’s description of champagne tasting like “an apple peeled with a steel knife.” That’s one of the things I’ve always appreciated about you, that you have this literary sensibility. Given that much of food writing today \u003ca href=\"https://www.aliciakennedy.news/p/on-food-writing\">can be somewhat rote and formulaic\u003c/a>, how do you approach writing your recipes? Are you trying to speak to the reader in a more personal or more literary kind of way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NIGELLA LAWSON: \u003c/b>I think writing is writing, and writing about food can be difficult. This is what attracted me in the first place. I was a journalist, and I thought about the challenge of using language, which is abstract, to conjure up the realm of the senses — the taste, texture and smell of food. How can I get that over to a reader? In a way, my style is my style because it’s my spoken voice as well. So what I am trying to do is bring the reader with me into the kitchen so that it’s not just about the steps — somehow the food has to alight in someone’s imagination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I write as someone who is very much a home cook. I haven’t learned the techniques — which is pretty evident if you see me cooking. I need to reassure myself \u003ci>and\u003c/i> the reader, so I might say suddenly, \u003ci>“Look, don’t worry, the sauce is very runny at this point; it will thicken as it cooks.” \u003c/i>Or I might say, \u003ci>“I know you won’t believe me when I say that you’ll be able to get all the batter in the tin, but you really will.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m trying to troubleshoot and at the same time I’m trying to convey enthusiasm, and those two aims are sometimes hard to get into balance. I really think I see the conveying of enthusiasm as my first task, but I also need to know that I tested the recipe so often that it won’t go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I love that you have a chapter in the book that’s a “defense of brown food,” which is a topic that I’ve thought about a lot, especially as someone who grew up as an immigrant kid. All of those slow-cooked stews and braises in so many Asian or West African or Latin American cuisines — these are the foods that speak to my soul. And yet as an editor at various food publications, I was constantly told that I couldn’t feature those kinds of dishes too prominently because they were brown and ugly and didn’t photograph well. Can you talk about why you feel so strongly about this topic?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It is partly that I feel that the pressure for picture-book prettiness has gathered momentum in this Instagram age. I had noticed that every now and then I would post a picture of a stew, and people would go,\u003ci> “Ugh, it looks horrible,”\u003c/i> or \u003ci>“Ugh, it’s brown.”\u003c/i> Now if I put the picture up, I’ll say, \u003ci>“Yes, it’s brown. It’s a stew; it’s meant to be brown.” \u003c/i>And I think it’s not just the color. People don’t complain about a photograph of a bar of chocolate. It’s also this strange thing, which probably goes very deep, about food that sloshes out and is uncontained. It’s messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"large\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Nigella Lawson\"]“Don’t make everything about what you might do occasionally. Everything is about what you do every day: You meet in the kitchen with your family or your friends or for yourself.”[/pullquote]The thing is, food is beautiful regardless. There are different foods that speak so deeply to us. And those slow-cooked foods that belong predominantly in the home and maybe even from childhood — these can be from very, very different cultures. I was writing about the sort of stews in a more European culture because I suppose I was returning to recipes from my past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think people are anxious when they cook. A lot of people buy cookbooks for some notion of when they’re going to entertain. But I always feel, don’t make everything about what you might do occasionally. Everything is about what you do every day: You meet in the kitchen with your family or your friends or for yourself. These slow-cooked foods do not have the bright beauty or vivid color of a lot of other dishes, but that vividness all goes into flavor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I did a slight detour into the beige foods as well. There’s a dish I do called a soupy rice with celeriac and chestnuts, which is a bit mushy, and it is beige. There’s something, I feel, about certain sorts of recipes that are modest. They’re not requiring you to stand to attention. But the rewards they give are so rich and varied. There’s a quietness about some of those recipes that we need in our lives as well. Everything’s top volume; everything has to make a statement these days. But sometimes you don’t want to make a statement, and you don’t want your food to make a statement either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>One thing I’ve noticed on social media is that you’ve really started championing several younger food writers who have taken it upon themselves to make food writing a little bit more diverse and less elitist — folks like \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://mobile.twitter.com/demarionunn\">\u003cb>Jonathan Nunn\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> in the U.K. and \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13906189/mayukh-sen-taste-makers-immigrant-women-food-america\">\u003cb>Mayukh Sen\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> in the US. Why is it important to you to do that?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Look, everyone is knocked off their perch at some stage. I don’t jealously guard my position. If people want to read my recipes, I’m thrilled — and if they don’t, they don’t. But I do feel that talent should always be encouraged. It brings me such joy when I’m sent a book early, and I just marvel at what someone is doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"large\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Nigella Lawson\"]“There’s a reverential attitude toward the ingredients [in Northern California cooking], but a lack of reverence toward what you’re putting with what. It’s imagination tempered by a sort of relaxed modesty.”[/pullquote]It’s very difficult sometimes in the modern world to get attention when you’re not on television. It can be hard. Sometimes I give advice privately on how not to get taken advantage of, or just to protect the people who I think need to be cherished and nurtured. It’s very important for them to hold firm and not let their voice get taken away. Because there can be a tendency to make everything a bit more homogenous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Something I love about your books is that sense of enthusiasm you spoke of earlier, which especially comes across when you discover something that’s new to you. What is a food that you had during one of your past visits to the Bay Area where you felt that spark of excitement?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID='arts_13920714,arts_13921079,arts_13919177']The last time I was in the area, I went back to Berkeley, not to the restaurant but to the cafe at Chez Panisse. And I had their persimmon pudding, which was completely new to me. The texture was familiar because it was almost like the steamed puddings that we have [in the U.K.]. In other words, it’s a cake that’s eaten warm with a spoon and fork, and so it has a squidgier element than most cakes. It was wonderful, and the persimmon brings that particular aromatic sharpness that works well with this almost gingerbread-like warm cake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This must be hundreds of years ago, but the first time I came to San Francisco, I went to Judy Rodgers’ restaurant [Zuni Cafe] and had that \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/2022/8/15/23279569/how-to-make-perfect-roast-chicken-zuni-cafe\">famous roast chicken with the bread salad\u003c/a>. It seemed to me so extraordinarily wonderful and confident. You have to wait for it. It’s, in a way, home food done but just done impeccably. And you share. And especially when you’re away from home, that just becomes such a particular treat — that food that feels cozy as well as exciting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve always been slightly obsessed with food in Northern California. You know, we were talking earlier about voice — how you shouldn’t alter someone’s voice when they cook. And I think the voice that informs the cooking in Northern California is bright, it’s uncluttered and yet it also takes a fresh look at all sorts of ingredients. I’m always sort of astounded at the mixture between the cozy and the elegant. It’s what I try to do an awful lot, and Californians do it particularly well. There’s a reverential attitude toward the ingredients, but a lack of reverence toward what you’re putting with what. It’s imagination tempered by a sort of relaxed modesty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-thumbnail wp-image-12904247\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-160x16.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"16\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-160x16.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-240x23.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-375x37.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Nigella Lawson will speak at the Sydney Goldstein Theater (275 Hayes St., San Francisco) on Monday, Nov. 14. Tickets are available \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cityboxoffice.com/ordertickets.asp?p=13261\">\u003ci>online\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>. She’ll also appear on Wednesday, Nov. 16 at the \u003ca href=\"https://lutherburbankcenter.org/event/nigella-lawson/\">Luther Burbank Center\u003c/a> in Santa Rosa.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The celebrated cookbook author comes to San Francisco on her 'Cook, Eat, Repeat' book tour on Nov. 14. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705006171,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":27,"wordCount":2093},"headData":{"title":"Nigella Lawson's New Cookbook Leans Into the Pleasure of Home Food | KQED","description":"The celebrated cookbook author comes to San Francisco on her 'Cook, Eat, Repeat' book tour on Nov. 14. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"Article","headline":"Nigella Lawson's New Cookbook Leans Into the Pleasure of Home Food","datePublished":"2022-11-09T23:20:03.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-11T20:49:31.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}},"source":"Food","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/food/","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","path":"/arts/13921460/nigella-lawson-cookbook-cook-eat-repeat-book-tour-san-francisco","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sure, America might have a whole gamut of food celebrities: David Chang with his hard-edged braggadocio, Alton Brown’s affable nerdiness, Ina Garten and her aspirational East Hampton aesthetic. But we don’t have anyone quite like Nigella Lawson — or, simply, “Nigella,” as the London-born-and-raised cookbook author and television chef is known in the U.K., where her iconic status is hard to overstate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 20-plus years since she wrote her debut cookbook \u003ci>How to Eat\u003c/i> (1998), Lawson has built up a dedicated fanbase by being an outspoken proponent of the sensory pleasures that can be found in cooking and eating. She is “Lady Bountiful, a sensualist celebrator of appetite,” as a recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/oct/10/nigella-lawson-i-didnt-think-id-be-a-mended-person-but-i-am\">\u003ci>Guardian \u003c/i>profile\u003c/a> put it. A journalist by training, Lawson speaks and writes about food with a poet’s ear for language in even the most seemingly tossed-off of comments. Who can forget the time when, as a guest judge on \u003ci>Top Chef\u003c/i>, she described a panna cotta as having the “quiver of a 17th century courtesan’s inner thigh”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Cook, Eat, Repeat\u003c/i>, Lawson’s latest collection of essays and recipes, is packed with similarly lovely, discursive writing. It’s organized around a handful of wide-ranging themes and ingredients that interest her. Instead of having, say, a section for breakfast recipes and another for dessert, there’s a chapter on why she hates the term “guilty pleasure” — and an accompanying set of recipes that instead lean \u003ci>into \u003c/i>the pleasure. There’s an entire chapter’s worth of anchovy recipes. And yet another on rhubarb.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Written mostly during the early months of the pandemic, the book — and Lawson’s BBC cooking show of the same name — talks about cooking not as some big performance that you put on for the sake of others, but rather a set of small, repeated tasks that you weave into the course of your day. Something modest that’s worth celebrating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The book was first released in the U.S. in April of last year — right when the Delta variant surge made it unsafe to launch an overseas publicity blitz. So, now, Lawson’s making up for lost time with an extended book tour that arrives at San Francisco’s Sydney Goldstein Theater on Monday, Nov. 14.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of that appearance, I chatted with Lawson via Zoom about her love of “ugly” brown foods, the craft of recipe writing and her favorite Bay Area food discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>LUKE TSAI: \u003c/b>I love that the book opens with this meditation on the literary possibilities of recipe writing, starting with your admiration of Aldoux Huxley’s description of champagne tasting like “an apple peeled with a steel knife.” That’s one of the things I’ve always appreciated about you, that you have this literary sensibility. Given that much of food writing today \u003ca href=\"https://www.aliciakennedy.news/p/on-food-writing\">can be somewhat rote and formulaic\u003c/a>, how do you approach writing your recipes? Are you trying to speak to the reader in a more personal or more literary kind of way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NIGELLA LAWSON: \u003c/b>I think writing is writing, and writing about food can be difficult. This is what attracted me in the first place. I was a journalist, and I thought about the challenge of using language, which is abstract, to conjure up the realm of the senses — the taste, texture and smell of food. How can I get that over to a reader? In a way, my style is my style because it’s my spoken voice as well. So what I am trying to do is bring the reader with me into the kitchen so that it’s not just about the steps — somehow the food has to alight in someone’s imagination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I write as someone who is very much a home cook. I haven’t learned the techniques — which is pretty evident if you see me cooking. I need to reassure myself \u003ci>and\u003c/i> the reader, so I might say suddenly, \u003ci>“Look, don’t worry, the sauce is very runny at this point; it will thicken as it cooks.” \u003c/i>Or I might say, \u003ci>“I know you won’t believe me when I say that you’ll be able to get all the batter in the tin, but you really will.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m trying to troubleshoot and at the same time I’m trying to convey enthusiasm, and those two aims are sometimes hard to get into balance. I really think I see the conveying of enthusiasm as my first task, but I also need to know that I tested the recipe so often that it won’t go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I love that you have a chapter in the book that’s a “defense of brown food,” which is a topic that I’ve thought about a lot, especially as someone who grew up as an immigrant kid. All of those slow-cooked stews and braises in so many Asian or West African or Latin American cuisines — these are the foods that speak to my soul. And yet as an editor at various food publications, I was constantly told that I couldn’t feature those kinds of dishes too prominently because they were brown and ugly and didn’t photograph well. Can you talk about why you feel so strongly about this topic?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It is partly that I feel that the pressure for picture-book prettiness has gathered momentum in this Instagram age. I had noticed that every now and then I would post a picture of a stew, and people would go,\u003ci> “Ugh, it looks horrible,”\u003c/i> or \u003ci>“Ugh, it’s brown.”\u003c/i> Now if I put the picture up, I’ll say, \u003ci>“Yes, it’s brown. It’s a stew; it’s meant to be brown.” \u003c/i>And I think it’s not just the color. People don’t complain about a photograph of a bar of chocolate. It’s also this strange thing, which probably goes very deep, about food that sloshes out and is uncontained. It’s messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"“Don’t make everything about what you might do occasionally. Everything is about what you do every day: You meet in the kitchen with your family or your friends or for yourself.”","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"large","align":"right","citation":"Nigella Lawson","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The thing is, food is beautiful regardless. There are different foods that speak so deeply to us. And those slow-cooked foods that belong predominantly in the home and maybe even from childhood — these can be from very, very different cultures. I was writing about the sort of stews in a more European culture because I suppose I was returning to recipes from my past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think people are anxious when they cook. A lot of people buy cookbooks for some notion of when they’re going to entertain. But I always feel, don’t make everything about what you might do occasionally. Everything is about what you do every day: You meet in the kitchen with your family or your friends or for yourself. These slow-cooked foods do not have the bright beauty or vivid color of a lot of other dishes, but that vividness all goes into flavor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I did a slight detour into the beige foods as well. There’s a dish I do called a soupy rice with celeriac and chestnuts, which is a bit mushy, and it is beige. There’s something, I feel, about certain sorts of recipes that are modest. They’re not requiring you to stand to attention. But the rewards they give are so rich and varied. There’s a quietness about some of those recipes that we need in our lives as well. Everything’s top volume; everything has to make a statement these days. But sometimes you don’t want to make a statement, and you don’t want your food to make a statement either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>One thing I’ve noticed on social media is that you’ve really started championing several younger food writers who have taken it upon themselves to make food writing a little bit more diverse and less elitist — folks like \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://mobile.twitter.com/demarionunn\">\u003cb>Jonathan Nunn\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> in the U.K. and \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13906189/mayukh-sen-taste-makers-immigrant-women-food-america\">\u003cb>Mayukh Sen\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> in the US. Why is it important to you to do that?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Look, everyone is knocked off their perch at some stage. I don’t jealously guard my position. If people want to read my recipes, I’m thrilled — and if they don’t, they don’t. But I do feel that talent should always be encouraged. It brings me such joy when I’m sent a book early, and I just marvel at what someone is doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"“There’s a reverential attitude toward the ingredients [in Northern California cooking], but a lack of reverence toward what you’re putting with what. It’s imagination tempered by a sort of relaxed modesty.”","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"large","align":"right","citation":"Nigella Lawson","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>It’s very difficult sometimes in the modern world to get attention when you’re not on television. It can be hard. Sometimes I give advice privately on how not to get taken advantage of, or just to protect the people who I think need to be cherished and nurtured. It’s very important for them to hold firm and not let their voice get taken away. Because there can be a tendency to make everything a bit more homogenous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Something I love about your books is that sense of enthusiasm you spoke of earlier, which especially comes across when you discover something that’s new to you. What is a food that you had during one of your past visits to the Bay Area where you felt that spark of excitement?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13920714,arts_13921079,arts_13919177","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The last time I was in the area, I went back to Berkeley, not to the restaurant but to the cafe at Chez Panisse. And I had their persimmon pudding, which was completely new to me. The texture was familiar because it was almost like the steamed puddings that we have [in the U.K.]. In other words, it’s a cake that’s eaten warm with a spoon and fork, and so it has a squidgier element than most cakes. It was wonderful, and the persimmon brings that particular aromatic sharpness that works well with this almost gingerbread-like warm cake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This must be hundreds of years ago, but the first time I came to San Francisco, I went to Judy Rodgers’ restaurant [Zuni Cafe] and had that \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/2022/8/15/23279569/how-to-make-perfect-roast-chicken-zuni-cafe\">famous roast chicken with the bread salad\u003c/a>. It seemed to me so extraordinarily wonderful and confident. You have to wait for it. It’s, in a way, home food done but just done impeccably. And you share. And especially when you’re away from home, that just becomes such a particular treat — that food that feels cozy as well as exciting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve always been slightly obsessed with food in Northern California. You know, we were talking earlier about voice — how you shouldn’t alter someone’s voice when they cook. And I think the voice that informs the cooking in Northern California is bright, it’s uncluttered and yet it also takes a fresh look at all sorts of ingredients. I’m always sort of astounded at the mixture between the cozy and the elegant. It’s what I try to do an awful lot, and Californians do it particularly well. There’s a reverential attitude toward the ingredients, but a lack of reverence toward what you’re putting with what. It’s imagination tempered by a sort of relaxed modesty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-thumbnail wp-image-12904247\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-160x16.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"16\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-160x16.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-240x23.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39-375x37.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Nigella Lawson will speak at the Sydney Goldstein Theater (275 Hayes St., San Francisco) on Monday, Nov. 14. Tickets are available \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cityboxoffice.com/ordertickets.asp?p=13261\">\u003ci>online\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>. She’ll also appear on Wednesday, Nov. 16 at the \u003ca href=\"https://lutherburbankcenter.org/event/nigella-lawson/\">Luther Burbank Center\u003c/a> in Santa Rosa.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13921460/nigella-lawson-cookbook-cook-eat-repeat-book-tour-san-francisco","authors":["11743"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_16106","arts_10278","arts_1297","arts_1050","arts_989","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13921469","label":"source_arts_13921460"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. 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You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","imageAlt":"\"KQED Bay Curious","officialWebsiteLink":"/news/series/baycurious","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"4"},"link":"/podcasts/baycurious","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406","npr":"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious","rss":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/category/bay-curious-podcast/feed/podcast","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvbmV3cy9jYXRlZ29yeS9iYXktY3VyaW91cy1wb2RjYXN0L2ZlZWQvcG9kY2FzdA","stitcher":"https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/bay-curious","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/6O76IdmhixfijmhTZLIJ8k"}},"bbc-world-service":{"id":"bbc-world-service","title":"BBC World Service","info":"The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.","airtime":"MON-FRI 9pm-10pm, TUE-FRI 1am-2am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service","meta":{"site":"news","source":"BBC World Service"},"link":"/radio/program/bbc-world-service","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?mt=2","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/BBC-World-Service-p455581/","rss":"https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"}},"code-switch-life-kit":{"id":"code-switch-life-kit","title":"Code Switch / Life Kit","info":"\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. 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As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.","airtime":"THU 10pm, FRI 1am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts","meta":{"site":"news","source":"Commonwealth Club of California"},"link":"/radio/program/commonwealth-club","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/Commonwealth-Club-of-California-p1060/"}},"considerthis":{"id":"considerthis","title":"Consider This","tagline":"Make sense of the day","info":"Make sense of the day. Every weekday afternoon, Consider This helps you consider the major stories of the day in less than 15 minutes, featuring the reporting and storytelling resources of NPR. 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