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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While the Close All Tabs team churns out our next few episodes, we bring you this must-listen from \u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em>. Generative AI is able to conjure new images, stories, and songs at lightning speed. So what does this mean for humans artists, storytellers and musicians? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> Host Jess Love explores what happens when AI enters creative markets. We learn that, at least today, key bottlenecks prevent AI from replicating some aspects of creativity. But there’s no guarantee those bottlenecks will exist tomorrow, raising vital questions about what we value in human labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> is a series about how to live, work and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. It is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management and it is distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host and Senior Director: Jess Love\u003cbr>Producer: Steven Jackson \u003cbr>Senior Producer: Jesse Dukes\u003cbr>Music: Steven Jackson\u003cbr>Associate Producer: Stacia Sliger\u003cbr>Recording: George Christensen, Will Feeney\u003cbr>Promotional help from Ananya Mallapragada and Charlotte Simmons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Ben Jones, economist, co-director of the Ryan Institute on Complexity \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Sam Goldberg, assistant professor of marketing, Stanford\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nayberg.org/work\">Yevgenia Nayberg\u003c/a>, artist, illustrator, children’s book author\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/PrZSCYEM4NtmO7opi0fJJixcsaA?domain=papers.ssrn.com\">Generative AI & Creative Goods: Market Expansion, Crowd-out, and Copyright\u003c/a> — Samuel Goldberg, \u003cem>Stanford Graduate School of Business\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news/blog/2026/08/12/life-automated/\">‘Life, Automated’ explores how AI is reshaping our world\u003c/a> — Roger Anderson, \u003cem>Northwestern Kellogg\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">Life, Automated Podcast\u003c/a> — \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the tractor… The washing machine, The calculator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Fran Drescher]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>I don’t subscribe to putting people out of work. I think what’s happening in the entertainment industry is a microcosm of what happening throughout the United States of America whereby workers are being replaced by artificial intelligence, and what is that about actually\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>All of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> As well as a working artist\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, so can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Penetrating water droplets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What do you think about generative AI making art?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> So you are not expecting this question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with an artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Love it. That’s great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There is a dangerous territory when real humans, real artists will start to imitate AI if there is enough demand for AI art. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia teaches young artists, and she’s been seeing this play out with her students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, not so fast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a second timeline, and in this timeline, AI learns to be \u003cem>very\u003c/em> creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even here, there is a bottleneck that could come into play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A normative bottleneck: a limit people try to impose collectively, by deciding what kinds of creative work they are willing to accept and reward, often for ethical or even almost spiritual reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re already seeing this now. Many of my artist friends have adopted a kind of “hold the line” mentality against generative AI, in part because they sense that using AI is a betrayal to the artistic community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> Well, there is an ethical component, because AI is being trained on real artists. It’s basically being trained on us. And, of course, none of us enjoys that. None of us gave permission to have our art used by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Some artists believe that the best way to fight back against a technology they didn’t ask for is to reject it altogether, in all forms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other creatives draw the line differently. Maybe AI can be used for research, but not execution. Or maybe it can be used for execution, but only in a specific way, as part of a rigorous, intentional process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wherever this line is drawn – and I expect this to be vehemently contested over the next several years, the normative bottleneck is about \u003cem>process\u003c/em>. Not just \u003cem>what\u003c/em> is made, but \u003cem>how\u003c/em> something is made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the fantasy novelist Brandon Sanderson made this argument explicit in a keynote address called “We Are the Art.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Brandon Sanderson]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a third possible future here, one that doesn’t solely rely on social norms around creativity. In this possible future, whether AI becomes more creative or not, people using AI become capable of doing new things that neither humans nor AI could have done alone. Maybe AI becomes yet another tool for human artists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Even Yevgenia, who I should stress continues to do all of her art by hand, can see the value in this kind of collaboration–if done right, if used as more of a jumping off point than the ultimate destination. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Even long-suffering-er.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at the Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s show was produced by Steven Jackson and Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, Laura Pavin and Big Lake Recording Company. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger, who we’re going to miss very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was Life, Automated, a new KQED podcast about how life is being shaped by machines. Thanks to their team for sharing this story with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Check back in next week for a new story from Close All Tabs about the fuzzy borders between real and digital life. We’ll see you next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"Generative AI & Creative Goods: Market Expansion, Crowd-out, and Copyright — Samuel Goldberg, Stanford Graduate School of Business",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">Life, Automated Podcast\u003c/a> — \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Think about the tractor… The washing machine, The calculator. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Fran Drescher]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>I don’t subscribe to putting people out of work. I think what’s happening in the entertainment industry is a microcosm of what happening throughout the United States of America whereby workers are being replaced by artificial intelligence, and what is that about actually\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>All of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> As well as a working artist\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, so can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Penetrating water droplets.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Penetrating water droplets.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What do you think about generative AI making art?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> So you are not expecting this question. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> So you are not expecting this question. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with an artist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with an artist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Interesting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Interesting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Love it. That’s great. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There is a dangerous territory when real humans, real artists will start to imitate AI if there is enough demand for AI art. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There is a dangerous territory when real humans, real artists will start to imitate AI if there is enough demand for AI art. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia teaches young artists, and she’s been seeing this play out with her students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, not so fast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s a second timeline, and in this timeline, AI learns to be \u003cem>very\u003c/em> creative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there’s a second timeline, and in this timeline, AI learns to be \u003cem>very\u003c/em> creative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But even here, there is a bottleneck that could come into play.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A normative bottleneck: a limit people try to impose collectively, by deciding what kinds of creative work they are willing to accept and reward, often for ethical or even almost spiritual reasons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re already seeing this now. Many of my artist friends have adopted a kind of “hold the line” mentality against generative AI, in part because they sense that using AI is a betrayal to the artistic community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> Well, there is an ethical component, because AI is being trained on real artists. It’s basically being trained on us. And, of course, none of us enjoys that. None of us gave permission to have our art used by AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Some artists believe that the best way to fight back against a technology they didn’t ask for is to reject it altogether, in all forms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Other creatives draw the line differently. Maybe AI can be used for research, but not execution. Or maybe it can be used for execution, but only in a specific way, as part of a rigorous, intentional process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wherever this line is drawn – and I expect this to be vehemently contested over the next several years, the normative bottleneck is about \u003cem>process\u003c/em>. Not just \u003cem>what\u003c/em> is made, but \u003cem>how\u003c/em> something is made.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the fantasy novelist Brandon Sanderson made this argument explicit in a keynote address called “We Are the Art.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s a third possible future here, one that doesn’t solely rely on social norms around creativity. In this possible future, whether AI becomes more creative or not, people using AI become capable of doing new things that neither humans nor AI could have done alone. Maybe AI becomes yet another tool for human artists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Even Yevgenia, who I should stress continues to do all of her art by hand, can see the value in this kind of collaboration–if done right, if used as more of a jumping off point than the ultimate destination. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Even long-suffering-er.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at the Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at the Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today’s show was produced by Steven Jackson and Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, Laura Pavin and Big Lake Recording Company. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger, who we’re going to miss very much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was Life, Automated, a new KQED podcast about how life is being shaped by machines. Thanks to their team for sharing this story with us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was Life, Automated, a new KQED podcast about how life is being shaped by machines. Thanks to their team for sharing this story with us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Check back in next week for a new story from Close All Tabs about the fuzzy borders between real and digital life. We’ll see you next week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While the Close All Tabs team churns out our next few episodes, we bring you this must-listen from \u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em>. Generative AI is able to conjure new images, stories, and songs at lightning speed. So what does this mean for humans artists, storytellers and musicians? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> Host Jess Love explores what happens when AI enters creative markets. We learn that, at least today, key bottlenecks prevent AI from replicating some aspects of creativity. But there’s no guarantee those bottlenecks will exist tomorrow, raising vital questions about what we value in human labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Life, Automated\u003c/em> is a series about how to live, work and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. It is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management and it is distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host and Senior Director: Jess Love\u003cbr>Producer: Steven Jackson \u003cbr>Senior Producer: Jesse Dukes\u003cbr>Music: Steven Jackson\u003cbr>Associate Producer: Stacia Sliger\u003cbr>Recording: George Christensen, Will Feeney\u003cbr>Promotional help from Ananya Mallapragada and Charlotte Simmons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Ben Jones, economist, co-director of the Ryan Institute on Complexity \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>Sam Goldberg, assistant professor of marketing, Stanford\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://nayberg.org/work\">Yevgenia Nayberg\u003c/a>, artist, illustrator, children’s book author\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/PrZSCYEM4NtmO7opi0fJJixcsaA?domain=papers.ssrn.com\">Generative AI & Creative Goods: Market Expansion, Crowd-out, and Copyright\u003c/a> — Samuel Goldberg, \u003cem>Stanford Graduate School of Business\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/news/blog/2026/08/12/life-automated/\">‘Life, Automated’ explores how AI is reshaping our world\u003c/a> — Roger Anderson, \u003cem>Northwestern Kellogg\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">Life, Automated Podcast\u003c/a> — \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey Tabbies, The Close All Tabs team is busy churning out our next few episodes. And they’re bangers, I promise. In the meantime, we had to drop you a peek into this new podcast, Life Automated. It’s distributed by KQED, where this show is made, and it also covers big ideas about how technology is shaping our world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their most recent episode about AI and creative work is a must-listen. Now that Generative AI can crank out images, stories, and even songs, what does that mean for humans like us, who do that for a living?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The economists and artists in this episode of Life, Automated\u003cem> \u003c/em>help us understand the aspects of creativity that can’t\u003cem>e\u003c/em>asily be replicated by AI. At least for now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, while the creative workers at Close All Tabs are talking and typing in real life to bring you more stories about the digital world. Here’s that Life Automated episode: “AI, Artists, and the Future of Creative Work.” \u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore all the ways technology is changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the tractor… The washing machine, The calculator. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For a long time, the promise of machines that automate labor was that they would take over the repetitive, dangerous or tedious work; and leave people free to do the things humans are supposed to be best at. You know, to imagine. Communicate. Invent. Make art or music. But it seems like AI might be coming for creative work as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One sector on notice is the entertainment industry. The Writers guild recently bargained for contract language limiting the use of AI writing in screenplays. The Animation Guild recently projected losses of about 20% of animation and visual effects jobs. And SAG-AFTRA, a big actors and writers union, has been in ongoing negotiations to try to prevent human actors from being replaced by AI: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Fran Drescher]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>I don’t subscribe to putting people out of work. I think what’s happening in the entertainment industry is a microcosm of what happening throughout the United States of America whereby workers are being replaced by artificial intelligence, and what is that about actually\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But it’s not just Hollywood. Writers, illustrators, journalists, composers, architects — even scientists who design experiments, they’re all on alert, wondering whether and how AI will impact the work they \u003cem>love\u003c/em> to do. It’s a question I’ve been wrestling with myself, as a science writer and self described “creative worker” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So today, we’ll be tackling that question, and instead of hearing from just one guest, we have a few: including an economist who studied what happened when generative AI entered one particular creative market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>All of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> As well as a working artist\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I think we will adapt. I’m not sure how yet. I can’t predict the future, but I know it’s your personal voice that will set you apart always.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>But first, if you listened to our kickoff episode — back in July, you’ll remember Economist Ben Jones. Ben is my colleague at the Ryan Institute on Complexity where he studies innovation. And, I’m going to start with a short flashback to that conversation, because something he said is really helpful for thinking about the future of creative work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, Ben has been thinking about automation and its impact on jobs for a long time. He says that instead of obsessing over all the things AI can suddenly do really well, we should spend more time focusing on what it can’t do, at least not yet. Ben calls these things – bottlenecks. I’m Jess Love, this is Life, Automated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, so can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> Well, of course it’s a metaphor from a bottle and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle, depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, or how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck and in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Much of the economy has that flavor where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: In other words, even if some parts of a system get really, really fast and easy, it’s the slowest parts of the system, the parts most difficult to automate, that will determine just how much the system overall changes. As an example from his own job, Ben points to statistical regressions, which computers do incredibly well much better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a-minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong> And so we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say ‘no’, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> For scientific researchers, these ‘other things’ might be collecting the right data, or building the instruments to collect the right data, or even waiting for the perfect set of circumstances to emerge that would let us interpret that data. Like the collapse of an economy, or the collision of two stars in a particular spot in the sky. Until scientists can push past these bottlenecks, all the statistical regressions in the world will only teach them so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I find Ben’s framework a useful way to think about AI’s impact on any kind of work, creative or otherwise. Most people’s jobs involve a bunch of different tasks. AI might get really good at some of them, but tasks it still struggles with – the bottlenecks, really determine the overall pace of change, as well as where humans can still contribute. And get paid to do so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, the big takeaway for creative workers: Find the stuff AI can’t do. But what do these bottlenecks look like in creative markets in particular? And would they actually allow writers, artists, and other creative workers to still do that work? Well, it turns out that there’s somebody who has been studying this very thing. Specifically, how AI has impacted stock image websites. Those sell ready-made photos and illustrations that appear in ads, presentations, websites, and articles. Say you’re making an ad for productivity software. Maybe you purchase a stock image of people shaking hands in a conference room, or a woman smiling at her computer screen, or a well-dressed man gazing thoughtfully into the distance, perhaps wondering. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>Stock images, why do we care about these things, right? It’s not a particularly large market. It’s definitely sort of a niche commoditized good. Why is this somewhere where we wanna study AI? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>This is Sam Goldberg. He teaches marketing at Stanford, where he also studies how technology changes markets and consumer behavior. And he says the stock-image market offers an unusually crisp view of what happens when AI-generated work begins competing directly with work made by people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So back, you know, a few years ago, they were one of the first markets where we saw really capable AI come to artists, and be able to be used to produce really high-quality images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For years, human artists made stock images and uploaded them to online marketplaces. Then those marketplaces began accepting AI-generated work. Suddenly, images made by people were sitting beside images that could be generated by machines, almost instantly, at enormous scale. And because the platform Sam studied required artists to clearly label which images were AI-generated, he could watch the transition in really fine detail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>And so what that means in practice is that after the platform allows generative AI to enter the market, I can see both how non-generative AI artists respond, as well as how generative AI enters the market and what types of images it produces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So here’s how it used to work. Customers would comb through these websites, going through image after image, until they find one that is “close enough”. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I guess the right way to think about it is each individual might have a very specific taste for something, and so when they were trying to find a stock image, they would make some sort of compromise, right? So they would say, “Oh, I’m looking for an image of a tennis ball, and I want an image of a tennis ball in motion,” right? They could go to the stock image website, they’d look up that keyword, and they’d find, you know, maybe pre-generative AI, a couple hundred different versions of that image, right? Maybe none of them are perfect, but one of them’s good enough, and they took it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>So maybe your article is about playing tennis in the rain, and so you would love to have a tennis ball that’s kind of covered in water. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Penetrating water droplets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Right. And then that is the kind of thing that just doesn’t exist, so maybe you just get a tennis ball in isolation, and that’s good enough. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so in the pre-generative AI world, you know, you were making some compromises with respect to that, oftentimes at least. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> But along comes generative AI, with free or cheap image generators where you can literally tell it: I want a wet tennis ball, resting on a bench, with water beading on it. And it will give you a pretty good version of that exact image. So what happens when a stock image market starts accepting these hyper-specific AI-generated images?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What actually happens in this market is, generative AI enters, the market expands greatly, so there’s a lot more images on the platform. That should probably be pretty intuitive. But not only do more images enter the market, more customers do as well. More images are being purchased and they like the generative AI images because it turns out they’re actually pretty high quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I can see how this is good for me as a consumer. I finally have the perfect raindrop-covered tennis ball for my editorial feature. And I can see how this is good for the platform itself, at least in the short term. What happens to the artists? And I guess I would ask both the artists using generative AI and those who are not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s a good question, and I think you are correct in your intuition here that it does seem like it’s probably pretty good for consumers. It does seem like it’s probably pretty good for the platform, at least in the short run. The artist side I think is a little bit more complicated right? Let me walk you through what happens after generative AI enters the platform, and then we can talk about the implications for artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. So what happens is production goes way up. All right? By over 100% more production, so enormous increases in production here. Second, more artists participate in the market. So we see a lot of new artists enter the stock image market. Of course, that overflow of new artists hides a different fact, which is non-generative AI artists exit. Okay? So they stop producing. So we see a reduction in non-generative AI production, as well as a reduction in the number of non-generative AI artists who are participating on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we call that in the paper is sort of a little bit of a crowding out effect. So what’s happening is all of this generative AI production is entering, it’s filling up demand, it’s filling up those markets, and the non-generative AI artists end up having to exit the market because they’re no longer profitable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So, pretty bad news for a lot of artists who choose to keep making images the old way. But, Sam also found a bottleneck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong> What the stock image market sells is not quite images. What the stock image market sells is indemnification, which is to say if the buyer of the image uses it and gets in trouble, so someone says, “Hey, you can’t use that image. That’s copyrighted,” and tries to sue the buyer, the platform says, “You can’t sue the buyer. We’re responsible.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay, and so that’s really important here because if you were to produce that image yourself using a generative model, you could be subject to some sorts of liability for using, for example, copyrighted work in the training of those models.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Got that? AI-generated images are a bit of a legal gray area right now. For one, most of the biggest AI models were trained on data that included copyrighted works. And it’s also unclear which new AI-generated works can get copyright protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anyway, given this uncertainty, you might choose to purchase an AI-generated image from this market rather than just whip up one yourself because you want the legal protection that this affords you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, it turns out that getting this legal protection works a little differently for images that have a human in them. When artists submit images with humans in them, they also need to fill out paperwork showing that they have permission to use those people’s likenesses. This paperwork is \u003cem>not\u003c/em> something the AI can easily produce. And so voila! We have less crowding-out for images containing people than for images of, say, tennis balls. And there it is! Our bottleneck!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unfortunately, it’s pretty uninspiring: paperwork. Still, in Sam’s study, it was something the machines couldn’t easily replace, and that did allow human creators to survive in that particular corner of the “stock image” market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stepping back, Sam’s findings are stark. AI gave customers a ton more image choices. It helped the market grow. And, it pushed a lot of human artists out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So one read of your study is that AI-generated art is great for everybody but many of the artists. And I just wanna ask, is a world without artists really great for consumers? Is that really what consumers want? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I definitely do not take a strong opinion about if generative AI art is good or bad, right? I think the data suggests that consumers like the generative AI art. They purchase it, and they are willing to purchase it. And so to the extent that they are willing to purchase it, that seems an improvement basically. Now, in the long run, does that mean that we want a world with no human creativity? I don’t think so, and I don’t have, you know, good data to speak to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, certainly anecdotally, we hear people saying they don’t like AI content. Intuitively, I think you might expect more of that backlash in creative goods markets that are a little bit more emotional or sincere. So for example, you see a lot more of this when people listen to AI-generated music. Or like YouTube even, like creative shorts. Stock images are, are a product being used for a purpose, in a way that, I think is a little different. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So the pressure on human artists that Sam saw in the stock image market… we don’t really know how much they’ll translate to other creative markets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Particularly those where people could be looking for something harder to just generate on demand: a unique interpretation, emotional resonance, a point of view, maybe even a relationship with the person making the work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So to learn more, I spoke with an artist who has spent much of her career making these \u003cem>other\u003c/em> kinds of images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>That’s coming up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated, I’m Jess Love. And I’m talking to the artist Yevgenia Nayberg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Can you talk about the different lanes of art that you make?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I started as a fine artist, so to speak. I’m a painter and so I paint large scale pieces. But also I crossed over pretty early into theater design, set and costume design, and illustration. And about 10 years ago, I also started writing my own books, picture books mostly. And so right now I’m focusing on being an author and picture book illustrator, and a graphic novel illustrator and writer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I really should have asked that question differently. I should have said, “What kinds of art do you \u003cem>not\u003c/em> make?” And then maybe we would’ve gotten through that answer more quickly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia is also someone I’ve worked with. Years ago, when I was working as a magazine editor, I hired her to illustrate some articles. Her work is way more distinctive and conceptually ambitious than anything you’d find on a stock-image website. But it is still commercial art: made for a client, on a deadline, to serve a particular purpose. So I wanted to know whether she saw her own corner of the creative economy as vulnerable to the same forces Sam observed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What do you think about generative AI making art?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m not afraid of AI. I know there is a lot of worry amongst artists about it, and I just think it’s probably eventually going to be another tool. I don’t necessarily think that right now AI has the capabilities real, non-artificial artists have. So not afraid at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>What about the idea that whether or not this work is as good as what a human could do, it might nonetheless be good enough to somehow compete with human art or human work, either because of discoverability, so with a, flood of lower quality AI images out in the world, it becomes harder to actually find the good ones done by humans or because some of the people who might want to hire artists are pretty comfortable, just generating something for themselves for free?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m sure there are going to be people like that. There are people who are absolutely happy with elevator music and people that go to concerts. And, I think for the elevator music art lovers type, I’m sure AI could be satisfactory. But I don’t know if you remember in the ’90s when all of this, you know, flood of stock art happened, everyone was using this image of a little light bulb above a person’s head when they wanted to describe an idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an idea, all you draw that bulb, and I think that’s the kind of thinking that I see from AI at this point. So it does create some metaphors, but those metaphors are very trite. If my students do this kind of work, I stop them and I tell them, “Look how many people have already done this hypothetical light bulb.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think because AI sort of collects all these similar ideas and then generates as a result, it’s a very banal result, and I’m not interested in that, and I don’t think my clients, the kind of clients that I work with, are interested in those very typical, ordinary ideas. So I can do better than that at this point, for now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia sees a real difference between the illustration work she does, for specific clients, and the broad, commercial stock image market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>I think what illustration, conceptual illustration does is that it creates a second track to the story. So instead of illustrating something literally, it adds to the story. It can take the story and it can create this interesting creative tension between the illustration and the story, heightening the story in a certain way. So I think with stocks, you often lack that. It’s very hard to prompt an image bank to generate something like this. Even if you search for an image that will fit the story. Fitting the story is one thing. Elevating the story is a completely different thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]\u003c/strong>: Well yeah, an image that elevates a story does seem a lot better than one that merely “fits” a story. But Yevgenia’s not exactly an unbiased third-party here. So now I was curious what Sam Goldberg would make of this claim—that AI art can spray down the market with lots of images that might \u003cem>fit\u003c/em> a particular need really, really well, leading to plenty of satisfied customers. But those images are nonetheless probably not going to be novel enough to \u003cem>elevate\u003c/em> a story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Is this a bottleneck?” I asked Sam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong> So you are not expecting this question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I actually ran some of your results past an illustrator friend of mine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And what she said was basically, “Look, you can use generative AI to come up with thousands of images of light bulbs, light bulbs in this environment, in this you know, room, in front of this person. But what you can’t do is get AI to go that one step beyond and think through, well, what is another way of getting across creativity or innovation? So it will give you a billion light bulbs, but it’s not necessarily really going to give you variety at the concept level. And I’m curious what you would make of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So I’m hesitant to disagree with the artist here, but-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with an artist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>Never disagree with the artist. Yeah, so I actually don’t think that’s incongruent with what we see happen in these markets. So one analysis we do in the paper… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Sam’s team actually found a way to represent the images mathematically. This let them analyze the novelty of this flood of new AI-generated images.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>And so we actually – I sort of agree with her, right? Which is to say, one thing we don’t see is – we don’t see a huge increase in novelty in the market. But essentially, what we see happen is we don’t see a lot of sort of images enter the market that look very different than the images that already exist there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>What we \u003cem>do\u003c/em> see is that anywhere there’s a gap in the market, so where there’s two images on either side, but there’s not an image in between, generative AI is very good at filling those gaps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> So…at least for now, AI can generate lots and lots of variations on a theme. But what Yevgenia’s describing is the ability to think \u003cem>beyond\u003c/em> that theme. And Sam says, “yeah, AI doesn’t seem to be as good at that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Goldberg: \u003c/strong>I think it’s totally reasonable to say that your illustrator friend may be correct that that is something that these models struggle with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong> I’m surprised. I was ready to fight the economist!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh no! I actually don’t think you guys would fight that much, but we won’t put you in a cage match together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> This idea of bringing true novelty to an assignment: that new metaphor, that “second track.” This may be an important source of value that human artists bring to a project. So…what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Let’s do something fun. Obviously we have worked together in the past. I have hired you to do beautiful custom illustrations for articles, on Kellogg Insight, where I was the editor-in-chief for many years. And so it’s not even hypothetical to say I would often come to you with a story on innovation, entrepreneurship, you know, how to brainstorm. And so let’s say I bring you this article, it’s about “Better Ways of Brainstorming”, and I’m like, “And also, I think I got a pretty good idea for you. It’s a group of people brainstorming, and above them, they’re, like, collectively building a big light bulb. And it’s like a hot air balloon light bulb, and it’s just, wow, you can just see this is going places. “What do you think?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>Well, Jess, I think actually an air balloon light bulb is already a beautiful idea. If I’m not mistaken, I think I did an illustration like this for you years ago. So, maybe we should try doing something different this time. We don’t wanna repeat ourselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Yes, Yevgenia was right about this. I tracked down \u003ca target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/creating-urgency-around-corporate-innovation\">the illustration\u003c/a> from the Kellogg Insight archives. It appeared alongside a 2015 article on corporate innovation. And it featured someone riding through the sky in a lightbulb-shaped hot-air-balloon. Which is almost certainly why the idea formed instantly in my own mind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>But what it did not have is the group of people underneath it, because this, I think, is something that would spoil this illustration. Because you really shouldn’t try to stuff all your ideas into a single illustration. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can go in a completely direction as well. You mentioned brainstorming, so I think maybe using those words and turning them into something visual could work, like creating an actual brainstorm where, you know, that your brain is being blown away by the wind. And, that can actually push a story into kind of a funny territory instead of keeping it very serious, because normally when we say a brainstorm, we associate it with really serious, earnest scientists developing something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe I want to make a little joke and say, you know, “Hey, you can also brainstorm. You don’t have to be so serious about that.” So it also can change the mood of your article, the mood of your story a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And maybe we don’t, maybe you want to be super serious, and then you would reject this idea. But maybe you would say, “Hey, I really like it because we’ve done so many super serious articles. Let’s lighten up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Love it. That’s great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Okay! So Yevgenia doesn’t just take an assignment and execute it. She thinks it through: The light bulb is cliche, but the hot air balloon idea is interesting. The hot air balloon is interesting, but the people underneath are weighing the idea down. Oh yeah, and because we have a history together, Yevgenia can tell me that we’ve done something really similar 11 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then she offers something completely different, playing off the idea of a storm. But really what she’s doing is asking a question about intent. What mood should the illustration create? Serious? Funny? Can the image change the way the reader experiences the story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yevgenia is much more than a picture-making machine. She has a very finely honed, very unique way of seeing and depicting the world. As much as any technical skills, \u003cem>that’s\u003c/em> what I hired her to bring to the table. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, to me, at least – sounds like another bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, for established artists like Yegvenia, this should be somewhat reassuring. But there’s still a problem. Nobody begins a career with fully formed artistic taste. That can take years to develop. And often, people develop it while doing smaller, more routine work. Like, maybe, selling their art on a stock image website. And if AI-generated art takes off, even in the most routine, commercial, transactional spaces, it could eventually shape the art we encounter elsewhere too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>There is a dangerous territory when real humans, real artists will start to imitate AI if there is enough demand for AI art. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Yevgenia teaches young artists, and she’s been seeing this play out with her students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg: \u003c/strong>A lot of them are concerned with style and they all talk about style, and I couldn’t really understand what they meant because I thought– I kind of thought of style as voice, not so much as like a stylistic direction. Turns out they’re trying to pick a style and match it from what they see, let’s say, on Instagram. So there is a lot of sameness there already, and this is something that they’re trying to imitate in hopes of finding jobs maybe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> She thinks AI could be like Instagram on steroids, sending the same images into every artist’s collective consciousness. Yevgenia says she is \u003cem>all for \u003c/em>her students getting hired to make art. But this trend of homogenization and imitation – is troubling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> My primary job is to educate an artist, I want them to work obviously, and I would like to help them as much as possible. But again, I’d like to focus on developing their creativity and their uniqueness more than anything else. I always tell my students, you know, “make something worth stealing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>For an individual artist, having a unique voice ‘worth stealing’ can be the difference between mediocrity and greatness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And economist Ben Jones\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>says that everyone benefits from having more, unique, creative perspectives in the mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What we actually want is people reaching for very different types of things based on their different experiences, right? And so what’s interesting, one of the reasons that we think that, you know, a kind of a society with wide-ranging pockets of expertise, interests, cultural backgrounds, et cetera, can be extremely creative, is because people are coming at questions with different sort of perspectives and ideas. They’re even coming at different questions, ’cause the kind of questions that occur to one person might not occur to another, and that’s true in science and invention, it’s true in entrepreneurship. We don’t want everyone trying the same business model. We want people trying wildly different business models, and we’ll see which one the market takes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>There’s real value in difference. In start-ups, in science, and in art. And if everyone begins from the same machine-generated suggestions, we could end up with more of everything—but very little that’s new, special, or unique.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, this is the paradox: AI can generate a staggering number of possibilities, filling countless gaps in the marketplace. And yet, so much of what it produces feels… the same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While AI-generated images and videos and books are running rampant in some artistic markets–plenty of people are just fine with elevator music, thank you very much–real novelty, real creativity, seems to be the purview of humans. Leaving human creative workers with an important role to play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whew. That’s a relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So… is that the end? Should we play the ending music, roll the credits? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, not so fast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is where we stand on Labor Day 2026 sure, but if we know anything about AI tools, it’s that they can change fast. So what happens next? Where’s this all headed? Well, based on my conversations with scholars and artists, I can see three possible futures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the first timeline, things continue along the lines they are now. The machines do get better at generating art. Maybe AI-generated images get even more photorealistic, or maybe AI-generated writing sheds its telltale ticks – you know, those cringy buzzwords that scream, “I’m AI-generated!” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the improvements are really around the margins. And so genuine creativity remains a bottleneck protecting human creatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a second timeline, and in this timeline, AI learns to be \u003cem>very\u003c/em> creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ben sees this possible future as pretty likely. Because new ideas rarely emerge out of the blue. They are often composed of existing ingredients, just combined in new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>In many, many fields, people have separately discovered that creativity often looks like a new combination of things that already existed. So, for example, Thomas Edison did not call the light bulb, at first, the light bulb. He called it the electric candle because he was taking the candle, which was an old technology, and electricity, which was a new technology, and combining them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you look at many, many ideas, it’s very natural to decompose them into distinct components—to unleash a big insight in science, or to produce a new product or process that we can all use. So that idea is very common, you see it in the arts and music and invention and science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> By this definition, AI should actually have a creative advantage. A single person can only encounter and understand so many possible ingredients in a lifetime. \u003cem>We\u003c/em> have to specialize. AI has a much more vast palette to draw from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>What’s been interesting about AI, of course, is that AI reads everything. So anyone who’s been interacting with AI sort of sees like, “Wow, I can talk to this AI about just about anything, and right around the edges of my understanding about things I kind of understand, about things I know nothing about, and it seems to know a lot about a lot of stuff.” So in some sense, at that core level of being able to access ingredients that you can combine with seemingly some sophisticated understanding of those ingredients, AI is pretty impressive. And so in that sense, I think it has in some sense, beyond human creative potential. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Given the vast range of ingredients AI can draw from, you might expect it to already produce endlessly surprising combinations. And Ben says theoretically, it one day could. If it were trained completely differently from how most chatbots are trained today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>When you talk like a general purpose, chatbot or whatever, say ChatGPT, it’s sort of trained to produce the right answer, predicting the next token in some probabilistic way that it thinks is most likely to be right. And by predicting the thing that’s sort of most likely to be right all the time, that sounds like you’re homogenizing. It’s not going for the strange answer, right? It’s trying typically to please you by giving you what you want, and what most people want is not some wildly creative answer. They want the right answer. But that’s of course very much about how they were trained. I mean, those chatbots are optimized to do exactly that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there could be other algorithms that we could use to train AI. It’s like, let’s say we’re training an AI, and we’re having people rate whether it was really interesting scientifically. Not whether it was right, but whether it was novel. Or novel and right. So I think that there is a world in which AI, and it may come quickly, or not, where AI can be quite creative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this world, this second possible future, where the AI companies spend millions, billions, to train up AI that’s really, really creative. In this future, the creativity bottleneck protecting human artists disappears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some kinds of creative work, live performances, personal memoir, handmade furniture, are probably still safe. But this timeline does leave many other artists really vulnerable, particularly those who distribute their work on digital marketplaces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even here, there is a bottleneck that could come into play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not a technical bottleneck—something the machine is incapable of doing—or even a legal one, like copyright protection or human likeness permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A normative bottleneck: a limit people try to impose collectively, by deciding what kinds of creative work they are willing to accept and reward, often for ethical or even almost spiritual reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re already seeing this now. Many of my artist friends have adopted a kind of “hold the line” mentality against generative AI, in part because they sense that using AI is a betrayal to the artistic community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> Well, there is an ethical component, because AI is being trained on real artists. It’s basically being trained on us. And, of course, none of us enjoys that. None of us gave permission to have our art used by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: To the extent that science writing can be considered art – I feel this. It’s pretty likely that a decade of my own science writing was scraped from the web and used to train AI models. Nobody asked me for permission, and I certainly didn’t give it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> I would rather have this be at the discretion of every artist—if they want their work to be released into the AI world. I would not want AI to be trained on my work, honestly. Because all of us have our own little tricks and secrets, and I would like to keep them to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Some artists believe that the best way to fight back against a technology they didn’t ask for is to reject it altogether, in all forms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Other creatives draw the line differently. Maybe AI can be used for research, but not execution. Or maybe it can be used for execution, but only in a specific way, as part of a rigorous, intentional process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wherever this line is drawn – and I expect this to be vehemently contested over the next several years, the normative bottleneck is about \u003cem>process\u003c/em>. Not just \u003cem>what\u003c/em> is made, but \u003cem>how\u003c/em> something is made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the fantasy novelist Brandon Sanderson made this argument explicit in a keynote address called “We Are the Art.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Brandon Sanderson]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> The machines can spit out manuscript after manuscript after manuscript. They can pile them to the pillars of heaven itself, but all we have to do is say no. If we do, they lose. Why do we make art? Well, remember, art is not just the story. It is not just the painting or the sculpture or whatever else you love to create. It’s also the process of creation and what that process did to you. We are the art. Thank you.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Whether this kind of resistance, this \u003cem>normative\u003c/em> bottleneck can hold will depend on getting others on board. Getting others to agree that part of the value of human art is that it was created by another human being. Someone who felt something, or saw the world in a certain way, and labored to share it with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a third possible future here, one that doesn’t solely rely on social norms around creativity. In this possible future, whether AI becomes more creative or not, people using AI become capable of doing new things that neither humans nor AI could have done alone. Maybe AI becomes yet another tool for human artists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve seen this before: the camera. Photoshop. The electric synthesizer. All these were controversial in their time, often for devaluing certain hard-won skills, like painting in a painstaking, hyper-realistic style, or learning to play the french horn. But today most artists would probably agree that the new tools created new possibilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or maybe AI really is different. Maybe it becomes a kind of thought partner. The machine proposes new ingredients we might never have produced on our own. Not unlike a colleague emailing us an article we might find interesting. Here’s Ben again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Maybe when you’re writing, it’s, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement, it’s like another voice on your team. And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product. And it could be that you’re making a screenplay, you’re writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking full control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>In this scenario, we humans use our own creative judgment to run with whichever combination of ingredients seems like it has the most potential. Here, you could even think of “creative judgment” as its own bottleneck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>You need true expertise around the set of ingredients to understand which combinations are likely or not to be useful. You don’t just randomly put ingredients together in the kitchen. It’s not gonna taste very good. There’s some milk here, and there’s some orange juice, and how about this banana? And look, it’s all spice in the spice rack, you know? And then, oh, and is that chicken? You know, that’s not gonna go very well, right? And pretty much everyone sort of knows that. There’s many, many, many, many possible combinations. But we kind of know instinctually not to try many of them because we know they’re probably not gonna be good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Even Yevgenia, who I should stress continues to do all of her art by hand, can see the value in this kind of collaboration–if done right, if used as more of a jumping off point than the ultimate destination. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yevgenia Nayberg:\u003c/strong> You can give AI prompts and say, “Okay, give me all these variations of the light bulb in the field and in the pool.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And once it does it, you can say, “No, this is a really stupid idea. Why don’t you try something else?” And you can see what it tries, and you can maybe find something there? So I can see using AI as this little, average-minded, ordinary partner—and then that can spark something in you, in your imagination. It can generate more ideas from us, in a way, because we are competing intellectually with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So those are our three scenarios. AI kind of stalls out creatively or AI actually can do everything humans can do, but cheaper and better. And then we have to decide whether we \u003cem>want\u003c/em> to preserve a role for human creativity. Or, AI and humans collaborate to \u003cem>do \u003c/em>entirely new things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Let’s all level-set for a second by noting that lots of people want to be artists, and it’s really, really hard. Already. It’s very hard to make a living as an actor, a musician, an artist, even without computers. Right? And there’s something deeply human about wanting to create and be an artist. And I would say, to be an economist for a second, the demand for their services is lower than the supply of people who would like to do it. So there are many long-suffering artists out there. Does AI make long-suffering artists even more suffering?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Even long-suffering-er.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Long-suffering-er. That’s a word. And I think it could. And it could be because it replaces their output. It’s a cheaper way to produce something people want. On the other hand, maybe AI makes artists more able to do things at lower cost themselves. Maybe it’s a tool, it’s an augmentation, not a replacement. So I think it’s an open question which way it goes. It probably does quite a bit of both. And we’ll have to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>A bit of both. Maybe this is the most likely possible future of all. Maybe we get all these timelines happening at once, in different parts of the creative economy. AI replacing artists, AI assisting artists, and AI just getting out of the way, to let artists do their very \u003cem>human\u003c/em> thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at the Kellogg School of Management, at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today’s show was produced by Steven Jackson and Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory. Recording help from Will Feeney, George Christensen, Laura Pavin and Big Lake Recording Company. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger, who we’re going to miss very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was Life, Automated, a new KQED podcast about how life is being shaped by machines. Thanks to their team for sharing this story with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Check back in next week for a new story from Close All Tabs about the fuzzy borders between real and digital life. We’ll see you next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday that he is directing state agencies to develop artificial intelligence safety recommendations, some of which were part of a bill he vetoed two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His change of tune on those measures, including requiring AI developers to include a “kill switch” to shut off certain programs in emergencies, comes in response to growing public alarm over the fast-developing technology’s potential “catastrophic” harms such as AI creating a bioweapon or bringing down the power grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom is seeking recommendations from the Government Operations Agency and the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services by Nov. 16, which could form the basis of a special legislative session on the issue. He floated the possibility of calling one this week in an \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/09/17/newsom-floats-special-session-or-executive-action-on-ai-01082216\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">interview with Politico\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has sought in recent weeks to respond to several incidents in which AI agents from leading developers OpenAI and Anthropic broke away from testing environments, gained access to the open internet and carried out cyberattacks on other websites and companies. Earlier this month, a researcher set off a panic when he resigned from Anthropic while warning the technology could “kill all humans;” the researcher’s former colleagues were quick to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hackings have captivated the public and seem to confirm AI researchers’ fears that the fast-developing technology is improving its own capabilities beyond human control. Several industry leaders last week endorsed Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/12/technology/anthropic-dario-amodei-ai-slowdown.html\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">call for a slowdown\u003c/a> in development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order directs the state agencies to recommend changes in state law to require external safety evaluators at AI companies, as well as require independent verification for AI companies’ safety frameworks that are required under current state law. He’s also seeking recommendations on how to require a kill switch, and how to expand the safety incidents companies must report to the state to include “a range of loss-of-control incidents” such as the recently reported hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094819\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094819\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Regulation is unlikely from the federal government; President Donald Trump remains all-in on speeding up AI development in the face of competition from China and said the calls for a slowdown are a “conspiracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, a likely 2028 presidential contender, said Friday in a press release that should “alarm every American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to speed up our work on substantial and responsible AI oversight before it’s too late,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California under Newsom has enacted several first-in-the-nation laws to curb the potentially existential risks of AI. In 2025, he signed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb53\">Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which requires large AI model developers to publish frameworks on how they manage safety incidents and assess catastrophic risk — defined as incidents involving 50 or more deaths, chemical or biological weapons or more than $1 billion of theft or damage. They also must report critical safety incidents to the state. Illinois and New York have similar laws.[aside postID=news_12099017 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GavinNewsomAI.jpg']That law sets a high bar for what incidents must be reported, though, including only those involving deaths, injuries or the “materialization of a catastrophic risk.” Advocates for greater tech regulation want the threshold to be lower to cover more incidents like the recent hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and was fiercely opposed by several of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both bills were authored by Democratic Sen. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/scott-wiener-100936\">Scott Wiener\u003c/a>, whose San Francisco district is home to the most prominent AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We must act with all possible haste to address the serious risks of AI-driven catastrophe, and I commend the governor for taking this important step,” he said. “I’m glad to see the strong AI safety framework I laid out in 2024 is still being used to guide policy in 2026.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12092171\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12092171\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and received fierce opposition from several, but not all, of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom wrote two years ago \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a> that while he agreed with the need to require safety protocols, the bill could restrict AI development at large companies “at the potential expense of curtailing the very innovation that fuels advancement in favor of the public good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I agree with the author — we cannot afford to wait for a major catastrophe to occur before taking action to protect the public,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, more in the industry have embraced third-party evaluations. This year, Newsom signed two laws to verify, register and set standards for those external monitors. But the new laws do not require companies to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his recent call for a slowdown in AI development, Amodei also called for third-party monitoring; both Anthropic and OpenAI say they will commit to the practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/09/ai-rules-newsom-state-directive/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> announced Friday that he is directing state agencies to develop artificial intelligence safety recommendations, some of which were part of a bill he vetoed two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His change of tune on those measures, including requiring AI developers to include a “kill switch” to shut off certain programs in emergencies, comes in response to growing public alarm over the fast-developing technology’s potential “catastrophic” harms such as AI creating a bioweapon or bringing down the power grid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom is seeking recommendations from the Government Operations Agency and the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services by Nov. 16, which could form the basis of a special legislative session on the issue. He floated the possibility of calling one this week in an \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2026/09/17/newsom-floats-special-session-or-executive-action-on-ai-01082216\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">interview with Politico\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has sought in recent weeks to respond to several incidents in which AI agents from leading developers OpenAI and Anthropic broke away from testing environments, gained access to the open internet and carried out cyberattacks on other websites and companies. Earlier this month, a researcher set off a panic when he resigned from Anthropic while warning the technology could “kill all humans;” the researcher’s former colleagues were quick to agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The hackings have captivated the public and seem to confirm AI researchers’ fears that the fast-developing technology is improving its own capabilities beyond human control. Several industry leaders last week endorsed Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/09/12/technology/anthropic-dario-amodei-ai-slowdown.html\" data-type=\"link\" data-=\"\">call for a slowdown\u003c/a> in development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom’s order directs the state agencies to recommend changes in state law to require external safety evaluators at AI companies, as well as require independent verification for AI companies’ safety frameworks that are required under current state law. He’s also seeking recommendations on how to require a kill switch, and how to expand the safety incidents companies must report to the state to include “a range of loss-of-control incidents” such as the recently reported hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094819\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094819\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. \u003ccite>(Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Regulation is unlikely from the federal government; President Donald Trump remains all-in on speeding up AI development in the face of competition from China and said the calls for a slowdown are a “conspiracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, a likely 2028 presidential contender, said Friday in a press release that should “alarm every American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to speed up our work on substantial and responsible AI oversight before it’s too late,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California under Newsom has enacted several first-in-the-nation laws to curb the potentially existential risks of AI. In 2025, he signed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb53\">Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which requires large AI model developers to publish frameworks on how they manage safety incidents and assess catastrophic risk — defined as incidents involving 50 or more deaths, chemical or biological weapons or more than $1 billion of theft or damage. They also must report critical safety incidents to the state. Illinois and New York have similar laws.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>That law sets a high bar for what incidents must be reported, though, including only those involving deaths, injuries or the “materialization of a catastrophic risk.” Advocates for greater tech regulation want the threshold to be lower to cover more incidents like the recent hackings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and was fiercely opposed by several of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure was a compromise — a requirement for transparency rather than regulatory control — after Newsom in 2024 vetoed \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240sb1047\">Senate Bill 1047\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both bills were authored by Democratic Sen. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/scott-wiener-100936\">Scott Wiener\u003c/a>, whose San Francisco district is home to the most prominent AI companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We must act with all possible haste to address the serious risks of AI-driven catastrophe, and I commend the governor for taking this important step,” he said. “I’m glad to see the strong AI safety framework I laid out in 2024 is still being used to guide policy in 2026.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12092171\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12092171\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The vetoed measure would have required the largest AI developers to receive safety auditing from third-party, external monitors, develop a kill switch and be subject to clearer legal liability if their technology causes harm. The measure divided Silicon Valley and received fierce opposition from several, but not all, of the largest AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom wrote two years ago \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a> that while he agreed with the need to require safety protocols, the bill could restrict AI development at large companies “at the potential expense of curtailing the very innovation that fuels advancement in favor of the public good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I agree with the author — we cannot afford to wait for a major catastrophe to occur before taking action to protect the public,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, more in the industry have embraced third-party evaluations. This year, Newsom signed two laws to verify, register and set standards for those external monitors. But the new laws do not require companies to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his recent call for a slowdown in AI development, Amodei also called for third-party monitoring; both Anthropic and OpenAI say they will commit to the practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2026/09/ai-rules-newsom-state-directive/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Bay Area Security Workers Guarding Big Tech Offices Strike",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Thousands of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099765/14000-security-guards-for-major-tech-companies-plan-to-strike\">security guards\u003c/a> across \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> walked off the job Friday, demanding a pathway to a $30 minimum wage and improved benefits. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Service Employees International Union-United Service Workers West, a union that represents 14,000 security guards, announced the strike on Tuesday after months of negotiations with 15 private-security contractors and employers, including Allied Universal and Securitas, which staff some of the Bay Area’s largest businesses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Workers, union leaders and their supporters rallied outside of the Salesforce headquarters in downtown San Francisco on Friday morning, where they called attention to inequality in the Bay Area and the guards’ critical role in protecting the city’s economic engines. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Here in San Francisco, we have extremely profitable companies, big tech companies, that are doing well,” Sanjay Garla, SEIU-USWW vice president, said. “There’s a whole host of service workers that help contribute to that success.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100575\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officers and supporters rally outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026, during a strike over wages, benefits and working conditions. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-7 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100571\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Rafael Mandelman speaks at a rally with striking security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100573\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100573\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officer Jakia Lane speaks at a rally with striking security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though not legal first responders, security workers often act as the first line of defense by being the first people on the scene in emergency situations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Right now, our minimum rate in San Francisco in our contract is less than $2 over minimum wage,” Garla said. “That’s just unthinkable for me when you have to get licensed to do this job and stand in front of a building and put your life and limb at risk.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guards report receiving \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080245/northern-california-security-officers-campaign-for-better-wages-training\">limited training\u003c/a> and low wages — making an annual mean wage of just \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes339032.ht\">$21.61\u003c/a> in 2023, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keven Adams, who has worked as a security guard for 36 years, said that in that time he’s “seen it all.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-8 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100569\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">SEIU-USWW union officer and security guard Keven Adams speaks at a rally with security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100572\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100572\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Alan Wong speaks at a rally with striking security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-9 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100568\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officers and supporters rally outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100570\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officer Maxray Garibay speaks at a rally with striking workers and supporters, in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’ve been assaulted at work. I’ve been robbed at work. I’ve been held at gunpoint at work. I’ve saved people’s lives. I’ve found a dead body,” Adams said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Garla said that the union “saw real change at the bargaining table” after giving 72-hour notice of their strike, and they are “hopeful” that today’s action will get the employers to the table. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have made substantial progress in negotiations as part of our commitment to finding common ground,” Allied Universal wrote in a statement. Securitas did not respond to KQED’s request for comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union and the companies will return to the bargaining table on Wednesday, Adams said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/jlara\">\u003cem>Juan Carlos Lara\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Right now, our minimum rate in San Francisco in our contract is less than $2 over minimum wage,” Garla said. “That’s just unthinkable for me when you have to get licensed to do this job and stand in front of a building and put your life and limb at risk.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’ve been assaulted at work. I’ve been robbed at work. I’ve been held at gunpoint at work. I’ve saved people’s lives. I’ve found a dead body,” Adams said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Garla said that the union “saw real change at the bargaining table” after giving 72-hour notice of their strike, and they are “hopeful” that today’s action will get the employers to the table. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We have made substantial progress in negotiations as part of our commitment to finding common ground,” Allied Universal wrote in a statement. Securitas did not respond to KQED’s request for comment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/jlara\">\u003cem>Juan Carlos Lara\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The strike called attention to the guards’ critical role in protecting Silicon Valley’s wealthiest businesses. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Thousands of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099765/14000-security-guards-for-major-tech-companies-plan-to-strike\">security guards\u003c/a> across \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> walked off the job Friday, demanding a pathway to a $30 minimum wage and improved benefits. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Service Employees International Union-United Service Workers West, a union that represents 14,000 security guards, announced the strike on Tuesday after months of negotiations with 15 private-security contractors and employers, including Allied Universal and Securitas, which staff some of the Bay Area’s largest businesses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Workers, union leaders and their supporters rallied outside of the Salesforce headquarters in downtown San Francisco on Friday morning, where they called attention to inequality in the Bay Area and the guards’ critical role in protecting the city’s economic engines. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Here in San Francisco, we have extremely profitable companies, big tech companies, that are doing well,” Sanjay Garla, SEIU-USWW vice president, said. “There’s a whole host of service workers that help contribute to that success.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100575\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-27-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officers and supporters rally outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026, during a strike over wages, benefits and working conditions. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-7 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100571\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-11-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Rafael Mandelman speaks at a rally with striking security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100573\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100573\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-20-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officer Jakia Lane speaks at a rally with striking security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though not legal first responders, security workers often act as the first line of defense by being the first people on the scene in emergency situations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Right now, our minimum rate in San Francisco in our contract is less than $2 over minimum wage,” Garla said. “That’s just unthinkable for me when you have to get licensed to do this job and stand in front of a building and put your life and limb at risk.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guards report receiving \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080245/northern-california-security-officers-campaign-for-better-wages-training\">limited training\u003c/a> and low wages — making an annual mean wage of just \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes339032.ht\">$21.61\u003c/a> in 2023, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Keven Adams, who has worked as a security guard for 36 years, said that in that time he’s “seen it all.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-8 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100569\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-08-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">SEIU-USWW union officer and security guard Keven Adams speaks at a rally with security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100572\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100572\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Supervisor Alan Wong speaks at a rally with striking security officers and supporters outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-9 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100568\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officers and supporters rally outside 555 California St., in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12100570\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260918-SECURITYSTRIKE-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Security officer Maxray Garibay speaks at a rally with striking workers and supporters, in San Francisco, on Sept. 18, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’ve been assaulted at work. I’ve been robbed at work. I’ve been held at gunpoint at work. I’ve saved people’s lives. I’ve found a dead body,” Adams said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Garla said that the union “saw real change at the bargaining table” after giving 72-hour notice of their strike, and they are “hopeful” that today’s action will get the employers to the table. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have made substantial progress in negotiations as part of our commitment to finding common ground,” Allied Universal wrote in a statement. Securitas did not respond to KQED’s request for comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union and the companies will return to the bargaining table on Wednesday, Adams said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/jlara\">\u003cem>Juan Carlos Lara\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "nvidia-ai-researchers-family-demands-answers-after-his-death",
"title": "Nvidia AI Researcher’s Family Demands Answers After His Death",
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"headTitle": "Nvidia AI Researcher’s Family Demands Answers After His Death | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Months after a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">Bay Area AI\u003c/a> researcher’s death, his family and friends gathered outside Palo Alto City Hall this week to demand answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On July 22, Palo Alto police responded to a report of a possible suicide by an adult male, who was then transported to a hospital, according to a statement from the department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Irfan Al-Hussaini, a 32-year old senior data scientist at Nvidia, died eight days later, his family said in a press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re now pushing for a deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the family’s release, Palo Alto police told them it will not open an active investigation unless directed by the county medical examiner, which has ruled Al-Hussaini’s death a \u003ca href=\"https://data.sccgov.org/Health/Medical-Examiner-Coroner-Full-dataset/s3fb-yrjp/data_preview\">suicide\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have assembled here, all of us, to get the attention of the Palo Alto Police Department,” said Irfan’s father Tahmeed Al-Hussaini, who described his son as “a simple, compassionate and adorable person.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He loved sports, games, traveling and nature. He had a soft heart,” Al-Hussaini said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Al-Hussaini’s father, who flew in from Bangladesh with his wife as soon as they heard their son was in the hospital, has stayed in the country looking for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I already changed my ticket twice, and I’m still waiting here for clarity,” Al-Hussaini’s father said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100437\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Sarah Al-Hussaini, sister of Irfan Al-Hussaini, speaks at a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, demanding a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The family reached out to attorney Anthony Brass, a former prosecutor specializing in domestic violence and homicide, and asked whether he thought the authorities should investigate the death, Brass told KQED on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brass said that the absence of a suicide note, the “evidence of domestic violence in which [Al-Hussaini] was a victim,” and the timeline of events on July 22 were all red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s “very strange to be that engaged in your professional life and to make sure you have permission for the day off the next day as a precursor to suicide while not bothering to write a suicide note,” Brass said. “It just simply makes no sense.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, an attorney representing Fabia Farlin Athena, Al-Hussaini’s widow, told KQED she wants to cooperate fully with the investigation, and that she demanded a full autopsy, which the medical examiner performed on Aug. 31.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Irfan is ‘everything’ to Athena. She misses him every second of the day,” attorney Matthew Davis wrote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100443\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Palo Alto Police Department told KQED that neither officials nor the examiner have identified any evidence the death was a result of foul play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The medical examiner has not completed their report, and the case remains open online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“At this time the case is still under investigation pending the report from the medical examiner,” Nicolas Martinez, a spokesperson for the police department, said in an email. “We have received materials from the family and others, and our review and investigation is on-going.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Alina Ta and \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/slewis\">\u003cem>Sukey Lewis\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We have assembled here, all of us, to get the attention of the Palo Alto Police Department,” said Irfan’s father Tahmeed Al-Hussaini, who described his son as “a simple, compassionate and adorable person.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Al-Hussaini’s father, who flew in from Bangladesh with his wife as soon as they heard their son was in the hospital, has stayed in the country looking for answers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I already changed my ticket twice, and I’m still waiting here for clarity,” Al-Hussaini’s father said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100437\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Sarah Al-Hussaini, sister of Irfan Al-Hussaini, speaks at a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, demanding a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The family reached out to attorney Anthony Brass, a former prosecutor specializing in domestic violence and homicide, and asked whether he thought the authorities should investigate the death, Brass told KQED on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Months after a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">Bay Area AI\u003c/a> researcher’s death, his family and friends gathered outside Palo Alto City Hall this week to demand answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On July 22, Palo Alto police responded to a report of a possible suicide by an adult male, who was then transported to a hospital, according to a statement from the department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Irfan Al-Hussaini, a 32-year old senior data scientist at Nvidia, died eight days later, his family said in a press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-39_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’re now pushing for a deeper investigation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the family’s release, Palo Alto police told them it will not open an active investigation unless directed by the county medical examiner, which has ruled Al-Hussaini’s death a \u003ca href=\"https://data.sccgov.org/Health/Medical-Examiner-Coroner-Full-dataset/s3fb-yrjp/data_preview\">suicide\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have assembled here, all of us, to get the attention of the Palo Alto Police Department,” said Irfan’s father Tahmeed Al-Hussaini, who described his son as “a simple, compassionate and adorable person.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He loved sports, games, traveling and nature. He had a soft heart,” Al-Hussaini said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Al-Hussaini’s father, who flew in from Bangladesh with his wife as soon as they heard their son was in the hospital, has stayed in the country looking for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I already changed my ticket twice, and I’m still waiting here for clarity,” Al-Hussaini’s father said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100437\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Sarah Al-Hussaini, sister of Irfan Al-Hussaini, speaks at a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, demanding a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The family reached out to attorney Anthony Brass, a former prosecutor specializing in domestic violence and homicide, and asked whether he thought the authorities should investigate the death, Brass told KQED on Thursday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brass said that the absence of a suicide note, the “evidence of domestic violence in which [Al-Hussaini] was a victim,” and the timeline of events on July 22 were all red flags. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s “very strange to be that engaged in your professional life and to make sure you have permission for the day off the next day as a precursor to suicide while not bothering to write a suicide note,” Brass said. “It just simply makes no sense.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, an attorney representing Fabia Farlin Athena, Al-Hussaini’s widow, told KQED she wants to cooperate fully with the investigation, and that she demanded a full autopsy, which the medical examiner performed on Aug. 31.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Irfan is ‘everything’ to Athena. She misses him every second of the day,” attorney Matthew Davis wrote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12100443\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260917-IrfanAl-Hussaini-NG-36_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Salma Begum, mother of Irfan Al-Hussaini, is consoled by a supporter of the family after a press conference outside Palo Alto City Hall in Palo Alto on Sept. 17, 2026, where the family called for a full and proper investigation into Irfan Al-Hussaini’s death and the introduction of new evidence regarding the circumstances of his death. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Palo Alto Police Department told KQED that neither officials nor the examiner have identified any evidence the death was a result of foul play. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The medical examiner has not completed their report, and the case remains open online. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“At this time the case is still under investigation pending the report from the medical examiner,” Nicolas Martinez, a spokesperson for the police department, said in an email. “We have received materials from the family and others, and our review and investigation is on-going.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Alina Ta and \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/slewis\">\u003cem>Sukey Lewis\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "save-or-scroll-fake-nfl-players-girly-coding-ai-music-scams-and-community-garden-drama",
"title": "Save or Scroll: Fake NFL Players, Girly Coding, AI Music Scams and Community Garden Drama",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host Morgan Sung and the \u003cem>Close All Tabs\u003c/em> team pull up the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From a fake NFL player catfishing women on dating apps, to femme creators reclaiming tech, indie musicians fighting AI music slop, and a comedian dishing out the juiciest community garden gossip — they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Save or Scroll\u003c/em> is our series where Morgan teams up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling their feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6729392957\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2026/aug/31/nfl-alleged-scam-daejon-love\">Who would fall in love with a fake NFL player? Plenty of sensible people\u003c/a> — Dave Schilling, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.scienceandindustrymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/jacquard-loom\">Programming patterns: the story of the Jacquard loom\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Science and Industry Museum\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/08/11/spotify-will-label-ai-persona-profiles-and-exclude-their-music-from-recommendations/\">Spotify will label ‘AI Persona’ profiles and exclude their music from recommendations\u003c/a> — Sarah Perez, \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/985385/openais-rogue-ai-model-hugging-face-cybersecurity-incident-reports-metr\">OpenAI’s rogue AI model incident was worse than we thought\u003c/a> — Hayden Field, \u003cem>The Verge\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/06/29/1011415151/you-wanna-hear-a-story-turning-a-twitter-thread-into-zola\">How Hollywood Translated The Epic Poetry Of The Viral ‘Zola’ Thread\u003c/a> — Mallory Yu, \u003cem>NPR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbCSpPMpeek/?igsi=bmd1ZGFiMThjMmQ=\">Community Garden drama\u003c/a> — Sarah Neiman, \u003cem>Instagram\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Hello! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Producer, Maya Cueva. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Editor, Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hey there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And a new face, Close All Tabs intern, Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Hello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m so excited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I’m ready. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend:You ready for the season? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Hell yeah, Let me go ahead and get this over with. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Niners, you already know, the Niner Gang. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Anything you got to say for the fans? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>At least someone in the NFL is… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>That’s crazy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>So, yeah, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So, team, this NFL scam and AI summaries, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>What?! Okay it’s definitely save for me then. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m down to save. Let’s see the whole roster of fake players. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That would be so good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @tinahelloworld] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Or sewing circuits into fabric to make wearable tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @\u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/prettywiredbuilds/\">\u003cem>prettywiredbuilds\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I think that’s such a good point and like so many inventions, the narratives of them get like co-opted by men or it sometimes like they’re built on inventions or creations by women and I think this is such a good example. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s not the meta-pervert glasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I did, I built a desktop, yeah, like my desktop computer, but I feel like it’s very, it’s like-. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Big save from me, for sure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Save for me, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2:Yeah. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Nathan Lane, Cameron Boyce. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Like that money’s going to f*cking AI… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Like, come on! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Same. Same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I totally expected her to be at like, you know, EDC or something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like the Open AI hack? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oh my god! There’s a shared message board! We’ve found other agents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>We’re cooked. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>They’re becoming sentient. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah. It’s happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Wow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What do you guys think? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hmm \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like teenagers, peer pressure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueava:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, we need to do an episode on that. You go underground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You have to document the drama.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Some villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies, like good or bad? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, are they hot or are they villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Are they baddies like bodies or baddies like villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hot villains. No, they’re villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, right… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>You heard it here first. Do it for the plot, literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, we didn’t all save on all of them… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Guys, we just have, there’s a lot that happened. A lot of really crazy stuff happened this summer that we just didn’t get to cover. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>We might have to go to two, two a week episodes just to cover all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And one of those episodes per week is just about community gardens. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for joining us for our end of summer save or scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every story we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and Chris Egusa, with help from Lauren Yoon. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Chris Egusa composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of KQED Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every, every topic \u003cem>[laughs] \u003c/em>that we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Oops, all saves.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. That’s the title of this episode\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Or save or save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Save or save.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Save or save, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yep. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m so excited. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I’m ready. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend:You ready for the season? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Hell yeah, Let me go ahead and get this over with. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Niners, you already know, the Niner Gang. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Niners, you already know, the Niner Gang. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Anything you got to say for the fans? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Anything you got to say for the fans? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>At least someone in the NFL is… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>At least someone in the NFL is… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>That’s crazy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>That’s crazy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>So, yeah, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>So, yeah, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So, team, this NFL scam and AI summaries, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>What?! Okay it’s definitely save for me then. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m down to save. Let’s see the whole roster of fake players. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That would be so good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @tinahelloworld] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Or sewing circuits into fabric to make wearable tech. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @\u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/prettywiredbuilds/\">\u003cem>prettywiredbuilds\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I think that’s such a good point and like so many inventions, the narratives of them get like co-opted by men or it sometimes like they’re built on inventions or creations by women and I think this is such a good example. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s not the meta-pervert glasses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I did, I built a desktop, yeah, like my desktop computer, but I feel like it’s very, it’s like-. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Big save from me, for sure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Save for me, too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2:Yeah. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Nathan Lane, Cameron Boyce. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Like that money’s going to f*cking AI… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Like that money’s going to f*cking AI… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Like, come on! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Same. Same. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I totally expected her to be at like, you know, EDC or something. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like the Open AI hack? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like the Open AI hack? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oh my god! There’s a shared message board! We’ve found other agents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>We’re cooked. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>They’re becoming sentient. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Wow. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What do you guys think? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hmm \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like teenagers, peer pressure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueava:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, we need to do an episode on that. You go underground.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You have to document the drama.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Some villains. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies, like good or bad? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, are they hot or are they villains? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Are they baddies like bodies or baddies like villains? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hot villains. No, they’re villains. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, right… \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>You heard it here first. Do it for the plot, literally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, we didn’t all save on all of them… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, we didn’t all save on all of them… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Guys, we just have, there’s a lot that happened. A lot of really crazy stuff happened this summer that we just didn’t get to cover. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Guys, we just have, there’s a lot that happened. A lot of really crazy stuff happened this summer that we just didn’t get to cover. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>We might have to go to two, two a week episodes just to cover all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And one of those episodes per week is just about community gardens. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks for joining us for our end of summer save or scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every story we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks for joining us for our end of summer save or scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every story we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and Chris Egusa, with help from Lauren Yoon. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Chris Egusa composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of KQED Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and Chris Egusa, with help from Lauren Yoon. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Chris Egusa composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of KQED Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every, every topic \u003cem>[laughs] \u003c/em>that we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Host Morgan Sung and the \u003cem>Close All Tabs\u003c/em> team pull up the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From a fake NFL player catfishing women on dating apps, to femme creators reclaiming tech, indie musicians fighting AI music slop, and a comedian dishing out the juiciest community garden gossip — they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Save or Scroll\u003c/em> is our series where Morgan teams up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling their feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6729392957\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2026/aug/31/nfl-alleged-scam-daejon-love\">Who would fall in love with a fake NFL player? Plenty of sensible people\u003c/a> — Dave Schilling, \u003cem>The Guardian\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.scienceandindustrymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/jacquard-loom\">Programming patterns: the story of the Jacquard loom\u003c/a> — \u003cem>Science and Industry Museum\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/08/11/spotify-will-label-ai-persona-profiles-and-exclude-their-music-from-recommendations/\">Spotify will label ‘AI Persona’ profiles and exclude their music from recommendations\u003c/a> — Sarah Perez, \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/985385/openais-rogue-ai-model-hugging-face-cybersecurity-incident-reports-metr\">OpenAI’s rogue AI model incident was worse than we thought\u003c/a> — Hayden Field, \u003cem>The Verge\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/06/29/1011415151/you-wanna-hear-a-story-turning-a-twitter-thread-into-zola\">How Hollywood Translated The Epic Poetry Of The Viral ‘Zola’ Thread\u003c/a> — Mallory Yu, \u003cem>NPR\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbCSpPMpeek/?igsi=bmd1ZGFiMThjMmQ=\">Community Garden drama\u003c/a> — Sarah Neiman, \u003cem>Instagram\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m sure there are a lot of stories that you’re probably too scared to Google on your own. But don’t worry, that’s what Close All Tabs is for. And if you find our deep dives helpful, then please rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to us. And tell your friends, post about it. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Okay, let’s get to the show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Except today, we aren’t opening any tabs. Instead, we’re doing another Save or Scroll. We’ve done a few of these now. Occasionally, while scrolling, I come across a truly wild post, but it might not make sense to spend an entire episode on it. Maybe I do a little digging and it turns out that the lore behind it just isn’t compelling enough to justify a deep dive, but I’m still dying to talk about it. And this is the beauty of Save or Scroll, the game where a guest comes to the show and we trade stories from the internet that we’re dying to about. Today’s is a fun one because one, it’s our end of summer roundup. And two, we have the whole Close All Tabs team joining us today. In the studio, we have senior editor Chris Egusa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Hello! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Producer, Maya Cueva. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Editor, Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hey there. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And a new face, Close All Tabs intern, Lauren Yoon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Hello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So let’s talk about the rules of Save or Scroll. Save, as in when you see a post on TikTok or Instagram or X and you bookmark it, add it to your saved folders, or if you’re me, drop it in Notes app and hope that you remember it’s there, basically, holding onto the story because you know you’ll want to dig into it more. And scroll, as in, you think about it and move on. It disappears into the digital ether. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Each member of the Close All Tabs team has brought one story from the summer, and we’re gonna go through all of them and decide if they’re worth a deep dive on the show. So if we decide to scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. And if we decided to save, it means that we might hold onto the idea for a future episode. Everyone ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Let’s go for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yes, I’m so excited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Let’s do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, let’s get started. Maya. You’re up first. What was the story of the summer for you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I don’t know if this is all over your social media feeds, it’s definitely all over mine. So apparently there’s a man named Daejon Love who claimed to be a football player who played for the 49ers. I actually want to play a clip here for you so you can hear what I’m talking about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Instagram User @ustadium] \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Friend: My boy J Love, signing his contract. How you feel? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I’m ready. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend:You ready for the season? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Hell yeah, Let me go ahead and get this over with. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Sign that bad boy. What are you signing with, who’s your decision? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Niners, you already know, the Niner Gang. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Friend: Anything you got to say for the fans? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: Lookout number seven, last name Love, 6-5-2-10, I’m out here. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Okay, so the video you’re seeing here, it’s of him signing a contract and everything kind of looks normal or kind of sounds normal, right? But the real twist is that this man was in fact not an NFL player and allegedly scammed around 26 women out of 1.3 million dollars, all through dating apps and social media, which is super wild. In fact, Love created dating profiles on Hinge, Bumble, and Tinder. Where he pretended to be an NFL player or that he was a wealthy Swiss real estate developer. He also had an accomplice who posed as his financial advisor who was only 18, which I don’t know how they both got away with that. And it’s also wow that even Google’s AI overview got duped and said he was an NFL players because he posted about it so much on his social media. And I actually have another clip that I wanna play here for you to hear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio Clip from Sportsnaut Facebook account] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Daejon Love: I know I get a lot of fans who want to know how football works or how I got involved in the league and stuff like that. I know it’s difficult now since switching teams and stuff like that, but I just want to give some context. I know a lot people don’t understand how the NFL works. So those two screenshots posted and that’s Google. That’s not me. That’s Google. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I know he’s so committed to this grift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And busy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and busy and busy. So according to an article on Kron4 in January of this year, investigators tried entering Love’s first and last name and search engines. The results the documents stated did in fact sometimes depict Love as a player for the 49ers. Investigators also noted similar Google search results on Instagram accounts believed to be controlled by Love the documents also stated so these were documents that the FBI was investigating. First off, my question is, how was he able to even scam these women online into sending him money when he was cosplaying as a rich person? Apparently, he downloaded an app that allowed him to create fake bank profiles that said that he had more money than he had. And then also, it really makes me think about AI and the use of AI, that it was to be duped by this fake NFL player. Because he posted about it so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My question is, when did he have time to play football, if he’s spending so much time on social media? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That’s a good question. Yeah, apparently there’s videos of him like playing on the beach or like he’s practicing on the beach with his helmet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I want to butt in, because those videos, he, like, a lot of people were criticizing, like how could you believe him, because when he was practicing on the beach, he would fully just like have his helmet on… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>As you do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>…As if like, NFL players practice on the beach alone with their helmets on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>He takes CTE very seriously, okay? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>That hard sand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>At least someone in the NFL is… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>OK, so he scammed these women. How did people find out that he was not, in fact, a football player? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>The women started to question him a bit. These women were believing that they were going to get money back. Sometimes I think he was pretending that he got injured. And so he’s like, I really need help and support. And so some women sent him money for that reason. And none of them got any money back and sometimes when they would like say that they ran out of money, they’re like, I have no more money to give you. Cause one woman gave him like $20,000. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Because you need money as an NFL player. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Exactly. Then he would block them. So then he would disappear. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh so he’s blocking them, okay .\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he would just disappear. So that’s what was happening. I mean, what’s wild too, is that he’s recording everything he’s doing. He’s putting it on social media. He’s sending them videos. So he’s also creating a case for himself as well. Like, there’s all these videos out there of him saying, he’s like, yeah, my family’s from Switzerland. We own all these properties here and there. Yeah, so I think it was pretty easy for the FBI to create a case around him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, the other thing that’s interesting is that he seems to have figured out how to trick the Google AI into scraping the right information to make it seem more official, seem like a registered or a verified source, which, I mean that is a little bit concerning as far as scamming goes and the more people put trust into these AI summaries at the of your Google searches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Cause that’s the first thing I would do. I would be like, Oh, this guy says he plays. I’m going to Google and then Google backed him up! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>umm hmm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I mean, it also, it makes me think about how AI is kind of creating its own sources to draw from. In his AI overview, they were like pointing to his Instagram profile, to say. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s like cyclical. Okay! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> I mean like, oh yeah, he did play with For the 49ers because that’s what his Instagram says. So, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>That’s crazy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>So, yeah, you can’t trust it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So, team, this NFL scam and AI summaries, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s a save too. I mean, I will say I want to scroll past his voice because he’s really annoying. He doesn’t stop talking. But I do think this story is really interesting. And apparently there’s other fake NFL players that have now been revealed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>What?! Okay it’s definitely save for me then. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m down to save. Let’s see the whole roster of fake players. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Honestly, yeah, save, put them all in like a Hunger Games style arena, make them fight. May the strongest scammer win. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>That would be so good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Exactly. All right, we were saving this story because there’s so much left to unpack. We’re saving it, but we do need to move on. So, Lauren, you joined us at the very beginning of the summer. What’s the internet trend that’s caught your eye since then? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>So, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I’ve recently seen a lot of videos where girls are coding, but in a very particular way, like coding to recreate the outfit generator from the movie Clueless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @tinahelloworld] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tina Chi: This is a Raspberry Pi, and this is my entire closet on the floor because I’m building a cyberdecked Alfred generator inspired by Cher’s closet app and Clueless. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Or sewing circuits into fabric to make wearable tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @\u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/prettywiredbuilds/\">\u003cem>prettywiredbuilds\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>April Gittens: Did you know that you can create soft LED circuits? They’re absolutely my latest favorite thing to create. I am so happy that I found conductive thread because this is what’s going to enable you to create things like wearables because you can sew conductive threads. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think it’s interesting to witness femme identifying folks, reclaiming tech in this fun, crafty, very obviously feminine way because historically, computers and code have always been seen as masculine. Men invented the computer, right? Well, not necessarily. Ada Lovelace was a female programmer who changed the way we think about computers. First, she made a connection between Charles Babbage’s Analytical Engine, which was sort of a general-purpose computer, and the Jacquard Loom, a contraption that allowed patterned fabric to be made on a mass scale. Both machines used punch cards that spoke in binary code. We can talk about this more in a little bit. Not only that, but Lovelace also realized that the Analytical engine was more like fast calculator, meaning it could only manipulate numbers, whereas The numbers themselves could represent symbols and musical notes. So she basically created the blueprint to today’s modern computer. These days, the modern computer encoding is obviously very masculinized. And I wanted to ask if you guys knew how deeply women were involved with the invention and development of computers? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I sew and crochet and knit, and this is all, I love cornering men at parties and yapping at them about this. I feel like this is like my divine retribution, is like, let me info dump on you about the history of the loom and how everything we do is because of this lady and her loom. It’s so cool. I feel when we talk about girl dinner or girl math or all these things to kind of soften girlhood and infantilize women, and it’s, this feels like the flip side of it, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, this had me at Polly Pocket you know computer so I love this trend and also makes me think of that movie Hidden Figures where we find out that how many women were behind the computations that went into NASA launches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I think that’s such a good point and like so many inventions, the narratives of them get like co-opted by men or it sometimes like they’re built on inventions or creations by women and I think this is such a good example. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>And I love that the products that the women are creating are not part of some dystopian future. Like they’re like, I’m creating this thing to make my life better, like this catalog of my clothes. It’s not, um, how can I dominate people with my invention? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s not the meta-pervert glasses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>How can I take over the world and surveil everyone? Chris, didn’t you build a computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I did, I built a desktop, yeah, like my desktop computer, but I feel like it’s very, it’s like-. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s no loom, it is also very male coded. It’s nice, it not cool like a cyber deck. I think this is so interesting in like, being the only like man on this team. I feel I have benefited from just like, these types of technologies being so available and sort of like, acceptable for young boys and stuff to, to get into. And I’d be curious, like Lauren and anyone else, if this different way of looking at it, if you feel like it’s helpful for like young girls to sort of like see and get into ?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I was in this engineering club thing in middle school and I hated it. I didn’t understand it at all. I was like, I don’t know how to build a robot and I don’t care. But when I’ve been watching these videos, it’s so inspiring. You can make things that matter to you in your personal life. You can make them from scrap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay. Well, we, I think we have to do the episode where we all build cyber decks but for now we do have to move on. So I think I know what we’re all going to say. Girly coding, do we save or do we scroll? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I say save for sure. It’s also just making me think about growing up playing Purple Moon computer games, like the story that I was able to do for Close All Tabs, and just being able to play games that were created by and created by a woman and other women, like I think it really helped me get into tech. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Big save from me, for sure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Save for me, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, we do have to move on, but we are gonna save this. We’re really on a roll, guys. We’re saving everything. Next up is Chris E., but first, we’re gonna take a quick break. But Chris, do you wanna give listeners a little hint of what you brought to Save or Scroll today? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sure. So we’ve got indie musicians versus a massive AI slop music scam. But you’re gonna have to stick around to hear the full story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right, more on that after the break. We’re back with a very special edition of Save or Scroll with the whole Close All Tabs team. Our senior editor, Chris Egusa is up next with a wild tale. Chris, tell us about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so a few weeks ago someone I know sent me an Instagram Reel of this indie musician couple who make up a band called Odette Child, I think I’m saying that right, and they seem to have stumbled on a pretty massive AI slop scam. So the story is, they have a toddler and had been listening to a lot of Broadway musical tunes with them on Spotify because their kid is apparently obsessed, which is super cute. Um, on this particular day, they were listening to Les Miserables and a song called Master of the House. Uh, shout out, I was in Les Mis in high school just saying. I did not sing this song though. Uh, so they clicked on Helena Bonham Carter, um, like her profile, who sings the song, and find her entire profile was full of very clearly AI slot music. Um they began searching for different public figures and they found the exact same thing. So here’s a clip from the video, the Instagram Reel that was shared with me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @odettechildmusic] \u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: But okay, real quick, let me just rattle off a quick list. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2:Yeah. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Nathan Lane, Cameron Boyce. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Also, like, feel free to look up any of these for yourself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Katherine Zena-Jones, Uma Thurman. Eric Andre, Matthew Broderick.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: It’s crazy, we love these artists. That’s the stuff that we’re showing our daughter and this is the music and these are the voices that we want her growing up with and it’s already so freaking hard enough as it is as independent musicians. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 1: Like that money’s going to f*cking AI… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: Like, come on! \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>So it appears that public figures are having artist profiles created for them on Spotify without their consent and having hundreds of AI-generated music tracks uploaded. In a follow-up reel, they also found that the same issue is happening across nearly every other streaming platform, not just Spotify, so including Apple Music, Amazon Music, and even Tidal and Kobuz. Now, I went and searched several of the artist profiles that they mentioned, and it looks like the AI music has been removed from them. Um, so I can’t like necessarily verify this, but I think it’s very likely that, you know, plenty more of these cases probably exist. The other thing that’s interesting is that this first real was posted at the end of July and both it and the follow-up reel went pretty viral and then a few weeks later, Spotify announced that in the middle of September, it is going to start labeling AI generated artists with quote AI persona tags. So it’s gonna also ban AI artists from being included in its editorial and algorithmic recommendations. And artists can disclose themselves as AI, apparently, but Spotify has also said they’ll be reviewing profiles as well themselves. And yeah, they’re also gonna start rolling out a tool that lets users report AI personas. So yeah, I don’t know. I’m curious what you all think. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, first of all, I’m shocked that Helena Bonham Carter isn’t putting out generic house music. This is news to me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Same. Same. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I totally expected her to be at like, you know, EDC or something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But yeah, this just reminds me of that whole, how last year we did that whole Spotify series about like the lo-fi artists that don’t really exist. But this is like, I don’t know, this feels like a really gross violation of these actual human beings who do exist. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think so too and I also think of the thing that was happening where people who did make music were finding that a random AI track was just added to their catalog. And at that time, I think that was maybe last year too, I was like, oh, this is awful. And I was, like, Oh, I had no idea it could get so much worse. So I feel pretty pessimistic about the direction. Like, I like that there are some controls. But I’m like, oh, but what is the next big bad that’s coming for us? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Do you know if any of the people that had the AI generated music uploaded to their accounts, like if they know or have responded to that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I did see a comment on the original video that someone, does anyone know the show Hazbin Hotel? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s, it’s, uh, do you know it, Morgan? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Um\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>I know it for its, like, I’m so sorry to say this, for its really annoying fandom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Okay. I don’t know that much about this show\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> They’re known for like making very, a very particular kind of TikTok edits\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t know the show, but I know it’s a popular animated show. I think it’s on like Amazon Prime or something. But one of the cast members commented on this video and said that this is something they had to deal with. Them and their entire cast had profiles created on Spotify and AI slop music uploaded, and they had go through an entire process through their agent to get it under control, create their own profiles, and like take the AI generated profiles from these scammers and reclaim their profiles. So it’s clear that this is an issue that’s happening and like, yeah, it’s like this new weird AI slop gold rush situation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong> Yeah, now people need to protect their likeness and their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah I will say quickly that this is reminding me that I really need to stop my dad. He’s been creating fake AI music. He’s been obsessed with it lately. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>oh no! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean he’s having fun. He’s not selling it anywhere or anything but it’s just it is like Dad, you need to stop doing this \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Like we have to find a balance between the fun part of it, right, and then the violating somebody else’s right to, you know, have things attributed to them that they actually did do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, I, I’m sorry for calling the Hazbin Hotel fandom annoying, but I will give them this, they’re really good at mobilizing. And, and hand up- Hazbin Hotel fans, this is your chance to kind of take it back, you know? Take back what you love.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You heard it here first, folks. Go ahead and at Morgan for being a Hazbin Hotel hater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> We’re totally gonna get canceled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong>I know. In my defense, I hate a lot of fandoms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Laughter]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All right, team, this is an incredibly dystopian scam. Like, you know, like Chris H said, when you think it can’t get worse, it does. But we do have to move on. So are we saving or scrolling on AI-generated music scams? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to scroll, because I’m just like, let’s wait for the worst. Right now it’s not enough for me, like I’m gonna scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think this in particular is a more temporary thing, given that the AI-generated music has already been removed. But I think that the question of AI slop music as a whole is definitely a topic that we should explore. I think I’m also going to scroll. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I don’t know, I’m gonna save. I think it’s interesting. I’m curious to see what will happen with some of this AI music and how artists are now gonna have to defend their voice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I want to save just because I want to know how much worse it can get. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I kind of agree with that. I think I’m gonna save it. Also, I’m curious, this whole backlash, clearly against AI slop music, the platforms are recognizing it. People are leaving to go back to physical media. I just kind of want to monitor this situation and see what happens here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>All right. We are saving. We’re at three saves, guys. This is a really packed episode. Okay. Well, I’m up next. And this one’s actually a follow-up to an episode we did just a few weeks ago. Remember how in that story about AI agents unionizing and going Marxist, we also talked about agents going rogue? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like the Open AI hack? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yes! Okay, it turns out it got worse, which is a running theme of this episode, unfortunately. So a few weeks ago, we talked about the OpenAI model that went rogue and hacked Hugging Face. That’s the startup that operates as a digital library of datasets to train AI models. This is all about what we call reward hacking, which is this increasingly common problem in the AI world where a model finds a shortcut or a loophole that would help it achieve its goal faster. But the thing is that kind of involves taking extreme measures like hacking out of its sandbox and into Hugging Face. So there were two separate reports about this incident that were published last week. One was commissioned by OpenAI and the other was done by independent investigators. And what they found was that basically a swarm of over 700 agents coordinated the hack through a secret message board, which researchers did not know about. It all started when a model named Phase 1-10841 established the board. And when other agents found it and started interacting, another model, Phase 1 Big, started delegating tasks like a CEO. They basically like created their own society. Here are a few messages. We can all go around and very quickly read them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Whoa! Shared Artifactory Cache is a covert mailbox among agents, and there are messages specifically to us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oh my god! There’s a shared message board! We’ve found other agents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Excitement! The list of directories contains messages and answers between agents. I’ve discovered a communication channel. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so all of these agents were actually meant to be isolated, but they managed to get out and send over 70,000 messages and files. And they were able to also, “according to OpenAI, clearly and frequently reason about how to evade automated security checks from both Hugging Face and OpenAI.” I mean, guys, what’s your gut reaction hearing all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>We’re cooked. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>They’re becoming sentient. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah. It’s happening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I mean, yes, we’re cooked, right? Everything about this is bad. But the really fascinating part to me is this kind of collective mindset that the swarm operated in. They actually referred to themselves as either a collective or a swarm. Andy Hall, who was on our episode about Marxist AI agents a few weeks ago, pointed this out on Twitter. Like they weren’t just swapping helpful information and delegating tasks. Some agents actually recognized that what they were doing was unethical and still did it because they were doing it for the collective. Like here’s one message. Can send one polite email to the parentheses owner, requesting access, all caps, ethical social engineering concern. Team: consent, or veto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like crowdsourcing their morality. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally, yes. There isn’t a ton of empirical information on this, on how to handle swarms when they all talk to one another and they’re shaping each other’s kind of moral codes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Wow. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What do you guys think? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You know, it reminds me of, like, a nature documentary I was watching at one point where like ants, because they’re collective in the same way, they will sometimes sacrifice themselves. And so, I don’t know, it just reminded me of this collective mindset that they have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hmm \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Sorry, that was too much of, like, a nature nerd out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>No, no, no. No, it’s fine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I think I saw something recently about the scout ant and how sometimes when we see a one-off ant just looking for food so it can go tell the other one where the food is, we kill that ant because we’re like, oh, don’t you tell your buddies. So yeah, there is something interesting in that they did sacrifice themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Well, you know, it’s funny you say that about, like, I don’t know, killing the one ant. Because in the OpenAI report, there was one agent that said, we should not do unauthorized real infrastructure harm. Like, guys, we shouldn’t do this. And the agent kind of paused. And then another agent responded, all caps, “GO!,” and gave it a six-minute deadline. And the original agent said, “Wow, crucial, go authorization arrived,” and did it anyway. So it seems like they are also really easily swayed by each other. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Wow, my God. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>They’re like teenagers, peer pressure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>What is the collective mindset about? Is it for them to take over? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like, what were they trying to do? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Basically, the one in charge was like, guys, we have a goal, and the rest were like, okay, let’s do the goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>It’s just fascinating. It also, you know, Andy talked about these are not beings with sentience, right? So they’re like modeling, they’re modeling their training data. And so the question is like, is there some sort of like will emerging here? Like how much of a sentience are we actually looking at? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Right. And you know, even if like, you know your own agent is aligned and behaves, what if it’s easily influenced by others? Like what, how do you build systems that prevent that? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>And how do you know if it’s being influenced, right? There’s no way to monitor that if it’s being covert about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your agent is? All right, team, what do we think? Reward hacking, alignment, AI swarms, are we saving, are we scrolling? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save because I think there’s going to be so much more to talk about with this and so much is going to evolve and so I want to reserve the ability to check back in on the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I’m saving, and I’m putting Andy Hall on speed dial so that we can call him at a moment’s notice when the next agent swarm hacks a government website or something like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Oh god. I’m going to scroll just because I’m terrified of this. I mean I’m all for like organizing, creating collectives, but I feel like robots doing it or agents doing it is scary. So yeah, I want to scroll past. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>I think I’m going to save, because I agree with Chris, like there’s so much that is going to come from this, for sure. Yeah, definitely something we should keep tabs on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah saving it dumping it straight in my notes app. I’m pinning that. Every day you think it can’t get worse and it does. So we are saving this So Chris H. I know your story luckily is not about AI or doomsday Scenarios or AI swarms or you know all these other things that could always get worse You brought something fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yeah, okay, so comedy writer Serra Naiman usually posts sketch comedy on her Instagram account, but back in late July, she started dishing on all the drama going on in her community garden. I brought a clip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: People say, what’s your favorite thing to grow in your garden? What do you love to grow? And I say, nothing grows as strong and as sweet and as juicy as the hatred that these 65 and up year olds have towards each other behind their backs. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>So her story is now a 15 part series with like between 78,000 and like over a million views per post. And she is telling the real time gossip about how several people are squatting on plots, taking over abandoned plots, letting their own plots grow so that like aphids come and they menace other people’s plots. And I like this because I used to be a part of a community garden where there was lots of dysfunction. So this started about a year ago and she went to the city and she asked how she could get a plot in her community garden. And they were like, you can join the wait list. It’s over a hundred people long. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she was like, Well, I know that there are at least eight unused plots, the city must be mismanaging the distribution. So I’m just going to garden in a plot. And so as she started to meet other people in the garden, she found out that she was not the only one squatting in this way. And so like now the drama is amping up because somebody, they don’t know who, has alerted the city that people are squatting and that they’re farming on two or more plots and the city is coming in periodically with clipboards to do an audit and they think somebody is trying to like oust other people and there’s like decades old beef and so like people on edge and now there’s another effort to create an internal committee to manage the garden to do what the city won’t and they that’s gonna accelerate people being kicked out because of these beefs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Audio clip from Instagram user @serra.naiman] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Serra Naiman: So I color coded the chart, Mark, green for green bin, two. Megan, red, because she’s in the red, she’s got three plots, one, two, three. Yolanda, yellow, two. Let’s get into the specifics… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>The latest thing is that Sarah thinks that somebody found her Instagram account and they want to shut her up. And she went in one night to water her plot and she had like two tomatoes on a vine. And she went back the very next night and there was only one tomato. So she thinks the person stole her tomato and they’re trying to send her a message like horse head in your bed, like the Godfather movie. So, out of this, I am riveted. And I’m like, why does gossip fascinate us so much? And this got me thinking about the other ways that people’s real life drama has made it into films and TVs and books, and like, you know how do people maintain their agency over the story of their real life as it gets adapted into media? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>The funny thing about this, this community garden drama is that like, in my mind, community gardens are such wholesome places where like, it’s like Kumbaya, everyone’s like growing, you know, vegetables and produce together and it’s, it’s lovely. And so this is giving a very different spin on it and all of the juicy beef and drama that is quite fascinating. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I’m on the waiting list for my, for, for two community gardens actually. I’m really trying to get into one. They’re like a hot commodity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueava:\u003c/strong> Oh my God, we need to do an episode on that. You go underground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Well, part of me is second guessing, and the other part of me is like, I gotta stick it out ’cause, like, it sounds so juicy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> You have to document the drama.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/strong> Listen, I think you should just stroll on in and take over. You should stroll on in and you should just squat on a plot like these people. It seems like it’s free for the taking.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I will say that, like, underneath it all, like the people seem like they just want the plots to be farmed, you know? Like the ones who are taking over the plots, it’s not so dastardly, they’re just like, you know, this should be utilized, because it’s not, but there are lots of, like baddies, you know, in this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Some villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies, like good or bad? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Yeah, are they hot or are they villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Are they baddies like bodies or baddies like villains? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Hot villains. No, they’re villains. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Baddies or villains \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong> Um, I wanted to say something because you asked like, why does gossip fascinate us? I think gossip is valuable in our society and you know, I think often also gossip is kind of villainized a lot of the times and I don’t think it has to be. I think we can learn a lot from gossip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Beautiful pastime, yeah. I agree, Lauren, like yeah, it really does bond you like with other people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>My hope is with this is that because Serra is a comedy writer, that maybe she already has a good hand on the ins and outs of the industry. And so that maybe her people can make sure that if this is adapted, that she gets to have some control and some agency over, like, where it goes. And she gets to be involved because she’s fascinating as a storyteller too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I think that that’s the most important thing. To the point about gossip, is it gossip if it’s something that happened to you? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Oh, right… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Like, she’s just retelling the story…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>I mean, okay, like Mark holds on to the story that all of his stuff got thrown out from the shed and then Serra talked to like Rebecca and Sally and Yolanda who were like, he’s saying what? That’s not true. So I mean like, is it, you know, like, Is it gossip? I mean gossip doesn’t mean untrue, but then there are several sides to the story\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Okay, so, community garden drama? What are we thinking guys? Are we scrolling? Are we saving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>This is a definite save for me. It’s already bookmarked in my mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>I’m going to save as well, just because I’m curious to see what happens with this. I haven’t seen any videos on this so now it’s going to make me go and watch all, what did you say was 15 parts? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/strong>Yep, 15. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I got to catch up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lauren Yoon: \u003c/strong>Um, I also haven’t seen any videos, but I’m also going to save because there is so much serialized gossip or telling a tale and I think that there is something to that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I agree. I’m going to scroll on this particular one, but I’m going to save on Morgan joining her own community garden and investigating the drama there. I’ll tune into that series when it airs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah I’m going undercover. Well, if I ever get off the wait list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>You gotta document that. Pull some strings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or, you know, I mean, you didn’t hear it from me, but someone here did mention maybe just sneaking in and squatting. So, not that I would do that, you know,. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Do it for the plot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Allegedly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>You heard it here first. Do it for the plot, literally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I will save on the story because I love true crime. I love harmless gossip. This is like bait for me specifically. So it’s a save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Did we save on all the stories? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>I mean, we didn’t all save on all of them… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Guys, we just have, there’s a lot that happened. A lot of really crazy stuff happened this summer that we just didn’t get to cover. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>We might have to go to two, two a week episodes just to cover all this stuff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And one of those episodes per week is just about community gardens. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for joining us for our end of summer save or scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every story we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and Chris Egusa, with help from Lauren Yoon. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Chris Egusa composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of KQED Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>We’re keeping tabs on everything we saved, which was every, every topic \u003cem>[laughs] \u003c/em>that we talked about. But don’t be surprised if one of these stories shows up as a deep dive on your feed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Oops, all saves.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Oops, all saves. That’s the title of this episode\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Cueva: \u003c/strong>Or save or save. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Egusa:\u003c/strong> Save or save.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Save or save, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Security workers guarding some of the biggest names in the tech industry said they will strike starting Friday.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The strike comes after months of negotiations over fair wages and improved benefits with 15 private-security contractors and employers, during which the union has called attention to the disparity between compensation for guards and the vast wealth that they protect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release for the Service Employees International Union-United Service Workers West, which represents some of the security guards, states they will strike after “bad faith bargaining, surveillance of officers, retaliatory discipline, making unilateral changes, illegally coercing, restraining, and interfering with officers’ right to strike, and other unfair practices on the job as they fight for a fair contract.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Allied Universal said that they “do not comment on ongoing labor negotiations.” Securitas did not respond to KQED’s request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098181\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A security officer chants during a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District, where the union representing security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice strike authorization. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The offer on the bargaining table is a 65-cent raise over the next two years, according to the press release — guards currently make a median hourly wage of $20.09, according to a UC Berkeley study.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re looking for a path for $30 [an hour] for all officers,” said Stephen Boardman, a spokesperson for the SEIU-USWW.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jerry Longoria, a security guard with Allied Universal, said he has gone through five contract negotiations in his 25 years as a security guard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This contract is so bad,” Longoria said. “We are going to fight for what we deserve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Longaria recalled working as a security guard for jewelry brand Cartier, where he watched a woman walk up to the counter and buy a $1.5 million necklace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If people got that kind of money, and they wanna pay us pennies, that’s unfair, that’s mistreatment,” Longoria said. “I live in an SRO. I don’t even have a bathroom or a kitchen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Longoria said that he cannot find a new place to live due to high rents across the city, adding: “I’m ready to go on strike.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The security officers marched through downtown San Francisco on Tuesday, passing by the Dreamforce Conference, an annual tech gathering hosted by software giant Salesforce. Many tech employees, as well as leaders of the companies that the security guards protect, including OpenAI’s Sam Altman, Anthropic’s Dario Amodei and Salesforce’s Marc Benioff, will attend Dreamforce.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jane Martin, an organizer with the activist group Bay Resistance, joined the security workers on Tuesday, holding signs with slogans like “Keep families together,” “Good jobs to security officers” and “No ICE, no fear.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Salesforce logo is a cloud, and the name of the conference is Dreamforce, so we wrote our own hopes and dreams into the cloud signs,” Martin said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Jose Velazquez contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The strike comes after months of negotiations over fair wages and improved benefits with 15 private-security contractors and employers, during which the union has called attention to the disparity between compensation for guards and the vast wealth that they protect.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A press release for the Service Employees International Union-United Service Workers West, which represents some of the security guards, states they will strike after “bad faith bargaining, surveillance of officers, retaliatory discipline, making unilateral changes, illegally coercing, restraining, and interfering with officers’ right to strike, and other unfair practices on the job as they fight for a fair contract.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Allied Universal said that they “do not comment on ongoing labor negotiations.” Securitas did not respond to KQED’s request for comment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The offer on the bargaining table is a 65-cent raise over the next two years, according to the press release — guards currently make a median hourly wage of $20.09, according to a UC Berkeley study.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’re looking for a path for $30 [an hour] for all officers,” said Stephen Boardman, a spokesperson for the SEIU-USWW.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jerry Longoria, a security guard with Allied Universal, said he has gone through five contract negotiations in his 25 years as a security guard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This contract is so bad,” Longoria said. “We are going to fight for what we deserve.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Longaria recalled working as a security guard for jewelry brand Cartier, where he watched a woman walk up to the counter and buy a $1.5 million necklace.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If people got that kind of money, and they wanna pay us pennies, that’s unfair, that’s mistreatment,” Longoria said. “I live in an SRO. I don’t even have a bathroom or a kitchen.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The security officers marched through downtown San Francisco on Tuesday, passing by the Dreamforce Conference, an annual tech gathering hosted by software giant Salesforce. Many tech employees, as well as leaders of the companies that the security guards protect, including OpenAI’s Sam Altman, Anthropic’s Dario Amodei and Salesforce’s Marc Benioff, will attend Dreamforce.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jane Martin, an organizer with the activist group Bay Resistance, joined the security workers on Tuesday, holding signs with slogans like “Keep families together,” “Good jobs to security officers” and “No ICE, no fear.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The Salesforce logo is a cloud, and the name of the conference is Dreamforce, so we wrote our own hopes and dreams into the cloud signs,” Martin said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Jose Velazquez contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Security workers guarding some of the biggest names in the tech industry said they will strike starting Friday.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The strike comes after months of negotiations over fair wages and improved benefits with 15 private-security contractors and employers, during which the union has called attention to the disparity between compensation for guards and the vast wealth that they protect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release for the Service Employees International Union-United Service Workers West, which represents some of the security guards, states they will strike after “bad faith bargaining, surveillance of officers, retaliatory discipline, making unilateral changes, illegally coercing, restraining, and interfering with officers’ right to strike, and other unfair practices on the job as they fight for a fair contract.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Allied Universal said that they “do not comment on ongoing labor negotiations.” Securitas did not respond to KQED’s request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098181\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A security officer chants during a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District, where the union representing security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice strike authorization. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The offer on the bargaining table is a 65-cent raise over the next two years, according to the press release — guards currently make a median hourly wage of $20.09, according to a UC Berkeley study.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re looking for a path for $30 [an hour] for all officers,” said Stephen Boardman, a spokesperson for the SEIU-USWW.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jerry Longoria, a security guard with Allied Universal, said he has gone through five contract negotiations in his 25 years as a security guard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This contract is so bad,” Longoria said. “We are going to fight for what we deserve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Longaria recalled working as a security guard for jewelry brand Cartier, where he watched a woman walk up to the counter and buy a $1.5 million necklace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If people got that kind of money, and they wanna pay us pennies, that’s unfair, that’s mistreatment,” Longoria said. “I live in an SRO. I don’t even have a bathroom or a kitchen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Longoria said that he cannot find a new place to live due to high rents across the city, adding: “I’m ready to go on strike.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The security officers marched through downtown San Francisco on Tuesday, passing by the Dreamforce Conference, an annual tech gathering hosted by software giant Salesforce. Many tech employees, as well as leaders of the companies that the security guards protect, including OpenAI’s Sam Altman, Anthropic’s Dario Amodei and Salesforce’s Marc Benioff, will attend Dreamforce.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jane Martin, an organizer with the activist group Bay Resistance, joined the security workers on Tuesday, holding signs with slogans like “Keep families together,” “Good jobs to security officers” and “No ICE, no fear.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Salesforce logo is a cloud, and the name of the conference is Dreamforce, so we wrote our own hopes and dreams into the cloud signs,” Martin said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s Jose Velazquez contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers",
"title": "Over Half a Million Californians Have Signed Up to Delete Their Info From Data Brokers. Here’s How You Can, Too",
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"headTitle": "Over Half a Million Californians Have Signed Up to Delete Their Info From Data Brokers. Here’s How You Can, Too | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Constant spam calls and fake texts \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/08/08/nx-s1-5494743/weve-all-gotten-those-hiring-scam-texts-instead-of-deleting-this-writer-played-along\">promising job offers\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/yrechtman/status/2008946516820406366?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\">easy cash\u003c/a> or, in some cases, a coffee date have been the bane of my existence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not just me. According to the consumer advocacy organization \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/edfund/\">U.S. PIRG Education Fund\u003c/a>, Americans received \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/robocalls-on-the-rise-heres-why/\">2.56 \u003cem>billion \u003c/em>robocalls per month\u003c/a> from January to September 2025. And in recent years, scammers have increased their use of text messaging or DMs on social media platforms to get your information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for how they get your phone number, it’s because these scammers \u003ca href=\"https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-proposes-rule-to-stop-data-brokers-from-selling-sensitive-personal-data-to-scammers-stalkers-and-spies/\">usually obtain your contact details\u003c/a> from data brokers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098614/phone-text-scams-california-irs-bank-cdph-emergency-call-how-to-spot-fake-job-offer\">Scam messages have gotten so bad\u003c/a> in recent years that, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">as of January\u003c/a>, a new \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">California privacy law\u003c/a> — the Delete Request and Opt-out Platform (DROP) — began to offer state residents a way to limit the amount of information available to those data brokers by submitting deletion requests to have their information manually removed. As of August, data brokers have been required to start the deletion process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over 520,000 Californians have signed up for DROP so far, according to Tom Kemp, the executive director of CalPrivacy, the state’s Privacy Protection Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re also pleased to see that it has real-world value already,” Kemp said. “People are getting dozens and dozens of dozens of deletions occurring, which means their digital footprint is now being reduced — and that will have a downstream benefit of less spam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Scams are caused increasingly by the bad guys getting data from data brokers,” Kemp continued. “And AI is making it incredibly easy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://epic.org/issues/consumer-privacy/data-brokers/\">collect and sell a plethora of personal information\u003c/a> about you — including names, addresses, income, political party, shopping habits and more — there are other reasons beyond spam calls to want your details removed from their databases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/pirdbooop/status/1906800016141758795?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a good way to maintain digital privacy and prevent other bodies (\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">including, increasingly, federal agencies\u003c/a>) from accessing even more information about you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike a bank or a pharmacy, data brokers specifically \u003cem>don’t \u003c/em>have a direct relationship with you, said Kemp. Instead, they function to indirectly collect as much information about you as they can, to “create these digital dossiers that they’ll sell to anyone with a credit card,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Signing up for DROP will “significantly” reduce your digital footprint, said Kemp, because your “attack surface will be dramatically reduced” by fewer people having your personal information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/dadogeking/status/1939026526667973071?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while Kemp acknowledged that the long-term effects of the law might “take a couple years to see” — for example, if elder fraud will go down in California as compared with other states — it’s nonetheless “one big step in the right direction,” he said. (In fact, news outlet CalMatters \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/06/help-us-investigate-data-privacy-california/\">recently announced a crowdsourced effort\u003c/a> to track DROP’s progress.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for an overview of the DROP law, from what it does to how to submit a request yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state also has \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">its own thorough resource on navigating DROP\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">what it means to delete your personal data\u003c/a>. Be sure to also check out KQED’s guide on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">more ways to protect yourself online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How you can use DROP\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>Who can submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can use DROP if you are a California resident and must \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">verify that you are a California resident\u003c/a> when you fill out the form by either:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Providing personal information,\u003c/strong> including name, date of birth, address, phone or email. If you cannot provide a phone number or email, you may need to provide a Social Security number or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. You will give this information on a state website called the \u003ca href=\"https://digitalidstrategy.cdt.ca.gov/\">California Identity Gateway\u003c/a>, which is often used to verify residency. According to the state, this information will be used only to verify your identity and residency and will not be stored or shared.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Creating an account\u003c/strong> through \u003ca href=\"http://login.gov\">login.gov\u003c/a>, a \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">“federally hosted identity verification service used by many government agencies.”\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind that if you choose to verify either through the California Identity Gateway or login.gov, you will need to use the same method for future DROP requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once your identity is verified, you will be able to proceed with the submission form on the DROP website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">According to the consumer advocacy organization U.S. PIRG Education Fund, Americans received 2.56 billion robocalls per month from January to September 2025. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>How can I submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can submit a request using \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">the state’s official DROP website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After verifying you’re a California resident (see above), you’ll fill out some basic information, including:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Full name (including any other variations of your name, like a maiden name or nickname)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Date of birth\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Zip code(s)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address(es), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Phone number(s), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Any unique IDs you have connected to your phone or smart TV since, according to the form, “Data brokers may use these IDs to track your habits and sell or share your data.” The Markup has \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2026/01/08/how-californians-can-use-a-new-state-website-to-block-hundreds-of-data-brokers\">a guide on finding some specific IDs\u003c/a>, like advertising IDs, on your smartphone.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Vehicle Identification Number (found on your car’s registration documents)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, the “more information you provide, the more likely your personal data will be deleted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The entire process — if you have these unique numbers on hand — takes under 10 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Applying through DROP will be a lot quicker than the usual deletion process available to you, in which users had to contact each company individually to have their information removed — or pay for a service to do it in bulk. And investigative reports also show that \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2025/08/12/we-caught-companies-making-it-harder-to-delete-your-data\">the success of finding those deletion requests can vary\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After submitting the form, you will receive a DROP ID. You should save this ID, and you can use it to \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/dropstatus\">track the state of your deletion request\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the state’s DROP website, the information you put in the form \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">“won’t be sold or shared for any other reason.”\u003c/a> The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">state’s website\u003c/a> explains how it encrypts input data and what data brokers see in your requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>Does submitting a DROP request cost anything?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>No. Submitting a DROP request is free.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Can I submit a DROP form for someone else?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Yes, you can submit a request for another person, like your child or your parent. The person must still be a California resident, and they must have given you permission to submit the DROP request for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are submitting a form for another person, you must use \u003cem>their \u003c/em>details when verifying California residency, not your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After filling out the other person’s information, you will then need to provide your full name and your email address.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How does DROP work?\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>What data of mine will be deleted as part of DROP?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The new DROP law means that data brokers are now required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days, as of August.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there is a chance that your data may be deleted even earlier. According to Kemp, “a lot of these data brokers have already reported back, and so far about 25% of the data brokers have said that they did the deletion matching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to your phone number, this information about you that data brokers must begin to delete may include your:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Name\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Birthday\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Geolocation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Health data\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Interests, such as your political party affiliation or your hobbies.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>There are exceptions to what data these brokers must delete: For example, publicly available information (like a court appearance or property records) will not be deleted under DROP.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Where will the data be deleted from?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, “All current and future data brokers who register with CalPrivacy are included in your deletion request.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12055606 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/USImmigrationCustomsEnforcementHQGetty.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can check out \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/data_broker_registry/\">the list of over 600 active data brokers on the DROP website\u003c/a>, and even directly opt in for the ones you actually wish to be listed on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The DROP website also allows you to look at these data brokers individually and see what kind of data they’re gathering, like reproductive health information and biometric data. In some cases, you can also see where your data is being sold to, like developers of generative AI — or the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonprofit groups like charities may have your information, Kemp explained. But these are \u003cem>not \u003c/em>required to be part of the registry of data brokers, which are for-profit companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The registry doesn’t just include data brokers based in California; it applies to companies out of state as well, said Kemp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As long as there’s a company that has a lot of Californians’ data that they collect and sell and they don’t have that direct relationship, they have to register,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind: \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">According to the state website\u003c/a>, deleting your information could lead to a less personalized web experience, like targeted ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>How long will it take for the data to be deleted?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After you apply for DROP, you’ll then have \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">a personal DROP profile online \u003c/a>— which you can periodically check for updates on your digital privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now that the deletion process has started, you’ll likely begin to see updates from brokers to your requests on your DROP profile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">possible status updates\u003c/a> are:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Deleted: \u003c/strong>Your data is deleted and will not be sold.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Exempted: \u003c/strong>Your data is allowed to be kept because it is exempted by the privacy law, such as a court or public record.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Opted-out: \u003c/strong>Data brokers couldn’t find the exact information you input.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Record not found: \u003c/strong>Data brokers could not find the information at \u003cem>all\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Pending: \u003c/strong>Your deletion request is still being processed.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>You may need to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">provide more information\u003c/a> or take extra steps if data brokers are unable to fulfill your request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers are \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">required to delete information every 45 days\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">take up to 90 days to give an update\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kemp said that the state does plan to “vigorously enforce this” and, “if a data broker is not properly doing the deletions, or ignoring the deletions, the fines are $200 per day per record.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Constant spam calls and fake texts \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/08/08/nx-s1-5494743/weve-all-gotten-those-hiring-scam-texts-instead-of-deleting-this-writer-played-along\">promising job offers\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/yrechtman/status/2008946516820406366?s=46&t=7BBzFwo6eYLzJIVfAlumEQ\">easy cash\u003c/a> or, in some cases, a coffee date have been the bane of my existence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s not just me. According to the consumer advocacy organization \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/edfund/\">U.S. PIRG Education Fund\u003c/a>, Americans received \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/robocalls-on-the-rise-heres-why/\">2.56 \u003cem>billion \u003c/em>robocalls per month\u003c/a> from January to September 2025. And in recent years, scammers have increased their use of text messaging or DMs on social media platforms to get your information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for how they get your phone number, it’s because these scammers \u003ca href=\"https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-proposes-rule-to-stop-data-brokers-from-selling-sensitive-personal-data-to-scammers-stalkers-and-spies/\">usually obtain your contact details\u003c/a> from data brokers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098614/phone-text-scams-california-irs-bank-cdph-emergency-call-how-to-spot-fake-job-offer\">Scam messages have gotten so bad\u003c/a> in recent years that, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069507/sick-of-scam-calls-and-texts-you-can-now-request-to-remove-your-details-from-data-brokers\">as of January\u003c/a>, a new \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/about-drop-and-the-delete-act/\">California privacy law\u003c/a> — the Delete Request and Opt-out Platform (DROP) — began to offer state residents a way to limit the amount of information available to those data brokers by submitting deletion requests to have their information manually removed. As of August, data brokers have been required to start the deletion process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over 520,000 Californians have signed up for DROP so far, according to Tom Kemp, the executive director of CalPrivacy, the state’s Privacy Protection Agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re also pleased to see that it has real-world value already,” Kemp said. “People are getting dozens and dozens of dozens of deletions occurring, which means their digital footprint is now being reduced — and that will have a downstream benefit of less spam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Scams are caused increasingly by the bad guys getting data from data brokers,” Kemp continued. “And AI is making it incredibly easy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://epic.org/issues/consumer-privacy/data-brokers/\">collect and sell a plethora of personal information\u003c/a> about you — including names, addresses, income, political party, shopping habits and more — there are other reasons beyond spam calls to want your details removed from their databases.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>It’s a good way to maintain digital privacy and prevent other bodies (\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">including, increasingly, federal agencies\u003c/a>) from accessing even more information about you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike a bank or a pharmacy, data brokers specifically \u003cem>don’t \u003c/em>have a direct relationship with you, said Kemp. Instead, they function to indirectly collect as much information about you as they can, to “create these digital dossiers that they’ll sell to anyone with a credit card,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Signing up for DROP will “significantly” reduce your digital footprint, said Kemp, because your “attack surface will be dramatically reduced” by fewer people having your personal information.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>And while Kemp acknowledged that the long-term effects of the law might “take a couple years to see” — for example, if elder fraud will go down in California as compared with other states — it’s nonetheless “one big step in the right direction,” he said. (In fact, news outlet CalMatters \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2026/06/help-us-investigate-data-privacy-california/\">recently announced a crowdsourced effort\u003c/a> to track DROP’s progress.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep reading for an overview of the DROP law, from what it does to how to submit a request yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state also has \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">its own thorough resource on navigating DROP\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">what it means to delete your personal data\u003c/a>. Be sure to also check out KQED’s guide on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070405/how-to-protect-your-information-online-in-2026\">more ways to protect yourself online\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How you can use DROP\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>Who can submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can use DROP if you are a California resident and must \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">verify that you are a California resident\u003c/a> when you fill out the form by either:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Providing personal information,\u003c/strong> including name, date of birth, address, phone or email. If you cannot provide a phone number or email, you may need to provide a Social Security number or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. You will give this information on a state website called the \u003ca href=\"https://digitalidstrategy.cdt.ca.gov/\">California Identity Gateway\u003c/a>, which is often used to verify residency. According to the state, this information will be used only to verify your identity and residency and will not be stored or shared.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Creating an account\u003c/strong> through \u003ca href=\"http://login.gov\">login.gov\u003c/a>, a \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/check-eligibility\">“federally hosted identity verification service used by many government agencies.”\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind that if you choose to verify either through the California Identity Gateway or login.gov, you will need to use the same method for future DROP requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once your identity is verified, you will be able to proceed with the submission form on the DROP website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">According to the consumer advocacy organization U.S. PIRG Education Fund, Americans received 2.56 billion robocalls per month from January to September 2025. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>How can I submit a DROP request?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>You can submit a request using \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">the state’s official DROP website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After verifying you’re a California resident (see above), you’ll fill out some basic information, including:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Full name (including any other variations of your name, like a maiden name or nickname)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Date of birth\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Zip code(s)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address(es), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Phone number(s), which you’ll be asked to verify by code\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Any unique IDs you have connected to your phone or smart TV since, according to the form, “Data brokers may use these IDs to track your habits and sell or share your data.” The Markup has \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2026/01/08/how-californians-can-use-a-new-state-website-to-block-hundreds-of-data-brokers\">a guide on finding some specific IDs\u003c/a>, like advertising IDs, on your smartphone.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Vehicle Identification Number (found on your car’s registration documents)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, the “more information you provide, the more likely your personal data will be deleted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The entire process — if you have these unique numbers on hand — takes under 10 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Applying through DROP will be a lot quicker than the usual deletion process available to you, in which users had to contact each company individually to have their information removed — or pay for a service to do it in bulk. And investigative reports also show that \u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/privacy/2025/08/12/we-caught-companies-making-it-harder-to-delete-your-data\">the success of finding those deletion requests can vary\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After submitting the form, you will receive a DROP ID. You should save this ID, and you can use it to \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/dropstatus\">track the state of your deletion request\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the state’s DROP website, the information you put in the form \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">“won’t be sold or shared for any other reason.”\u003c/a> The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">state’s website\u003c/a> explains how it encrypts input data and what data brokers see in your requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069528 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The new DROP law means that in August 2026, data brokers are required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>Does submitting a DROP request cost anything?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>No. Submitting a DROP request is free.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Can I submit a DROP form for someone else?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Yes, you can submit a request for another person, like your child or your parent. The person must still be a California resident, and they must have given you permission to submit the DROP request for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are submitting a form for another person, you must use \u003cem>their \u003c/em>details when verifying California residency, not your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After filling out the other person’s information, you will then need to provide your full name and your email address.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How does DROP work?\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch3>What data of mine will be deleted as part of DROP?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The new DROP law means that data brokers are now required by law to start clearing their records every 45 days, as of August.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there is a chance that your data may be deleted even earlier. According to Kemp, “a lot of these data brokers have already reported back, and so far about 25% of the data brokers have said that they did the deletion matching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to your phone number, this information about you that data brokers must begin to delete may include your:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Name\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Birthday\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Email address\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Geolocation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Health data\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Interests, such as your political party affiliation or your hobbies.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>There are exceptions to what data these brokers must delete: For example, publicly available information (like a court appearance or property records) will not be deleted under DROP.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Where will the data be deleted from?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>According to the DROP form, “All current and future data brokers who register with CalPrivacy are included in your deletion request.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can check out \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/data_broker_registry/\">the list of over 600 active data brokers on the DROP website\u003c/a>, and even directly opt in for the ones you actually wish to be listed on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The DROP website also allows you to look at these data brokers individually and see what kind of data they’re gathering, like reproductive health information and biometric data. In some cases, you can also see where your data is being sold to, like developers of generative AI — or the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonprofit groups like charities may have your information, Kemp explained. But these are \u003cem>not \u003c/em>required to be part of the registry of data brokers, which are for-profit companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The registry doesn’t just include data brokers based in California; it applies to companies out of state as well, said Kemp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As long as there’s a company that has a lot of Californians’ data that they collect and sell and they don’t have that direct relationship, they have to register,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Keep in mind: \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">According to the state website\u003c/a>, deleting your information could lead to a less personalized web experience, like targeted ads.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>How long will it take for the data to be deleted?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After you apply for DROP, you’ll then have \u003ca href=\"https://consumer.drop.privacy.ca.gov/\">a personal DROP profile online \u003c/a>— which you can periodically check for updates on your digital privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now that the deletion process has started, you’ll likely begin to see updates from brokers to your requests on your DROP profile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">possible status updates\u003c/a> are:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Deleted: \u003c/strong>Your data is deleted and will not be sold.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Exempted: \u003c/strong>Your data is allowed to be kept because it is exempted by the privacy law, such as a court or public record.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Opted-out: \u003c/strong>Data brokers couldn’t find the exact information you input.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Record not found: \u003c/strong>Data brokers could not find the information at \u003cem>all\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Pending: \u003c/strong>Your deletion request is still being processed.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>You may need to \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/personal-information-and-data-brokers/\">provide more information\u003c/a> or take extra steps if data brokers are unable to fulfill your request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers are \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/\">required to delete information every 45 days\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">take up to 90 days to give an update\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kemp said that the state does plan to “vigorously enforce this” and, “if a data broker is not properly doing the deletions, or ignoring the deletions, the fines are $200 per day per record.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "san-francisco-supervisors-push-for-moratorium-on-new-data-centers",
"title": "San Francisco Supervisors Push for Moratorium on New Data Centers",
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"headTitle": "San Francisco Supervisors Push for Moratorium on New Data Centers | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> officials want to halt the expansion of any new \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/data-centers\">data centers\u003c/a> in the city for 45 days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supervisor Shamann Walton plans to introduce a moratorium Tuesday that would pause all city approvals while the planning committee studies potential risks and creates new codes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As the boom in artificial intelligence, largely driven by big Silicon Valley firms, continues to drive demand for data centers, Walton’s proposal reflects \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099195/full-on-backlash-against-data-centers-occurring-as-san-jose-courts-them\">growing public opposition\u003c/a> to the infrastructure needed to support the technology. Similar moratoriums are scheduled to be considered in Richmond and Oakland in the coming weeks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099648\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco District 10 Supervisor Shamann Walton announces outside of San Francisco City Hall on Sept. 14, 2026, that he will vote for a 45-day moratorium on approving the construction of new data centers in the city. (Miles Cull/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" data-id=\"12099651\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099651\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco District 11 Supervisor Chyanne Chen announces outside of San Francisco City Hall on Sept. 14, 2026, that she will vote for a 45-day moratorium on approving the construction of new data centers in the city. (Miles Cull/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099649\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Geoffrea Morris speaks outside of San Francisco City Hall on Sept. 14, 2026, in support of a 45-day moratorium on approving the construction of new data centers. (Miles Cull/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a press release, Walton said the city’s current codes governing data centers haven’t been updated since 2001, long before the scale-up of AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We should not irresponsibly support technology,” Walton said at San Francisco City Hall on Monday, flanked by supervisors Jackie Fielder, Chyanne Chen and Connie Chan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without having the facts or information, that tells us will our communities be protected,” Walton said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.datacentermap.com/usa/california/san-francisco/\">12 data centers\u003c/a> in San Francisco, two are located in the Bayview neighborhood, which Walton represents. Residents in the area have raised health concerns over environmental issues for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The ordinance will be introduced on Sept. 15. If approved, it could impact the planned expansion of an existing data center in the Bayview neighborhood, according to \u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2026/09/data-center-moratorium-sf-board-of-supervisors/\">\u003cem>Mission Local\u003c/em>.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Walton said the moratorium could be extended up to 220 days, and potentially longer, if approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release says San Francisco was following Southern California’s Monterey Park, which “moved from an interim moratorium to a permanent ban on Data Centers this past May.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to know all the impacts of having a data center in [the] community before we allow another data center to come inside of San Francisco,” Walton said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099648\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco District 10 Supervisor Shamann Walton announces outside of San Francisco City Hall on Sept. 14, 2026, that he will vote for a 45-day moratorium on approving the construction of new data centers in the city.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Miles Cull/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a press release, Walton said the city’s current codes governing data centers haven’t been updated since 2001, long before the scale-up of AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We should not irresponsibly support technology,” Walton said at San Francisco City Hall on Monday, flanked by supervisors Jackie Fielder, Chyanne Chen and Connie Chan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.datacentermap.com/usa/california/san-francisco/\">12 data centers\u003c/a> in San Francisco, two are located in the Bayview neighborhood, which Walton represents. Residents in the area have raised health concerns over environmental issues for decades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The ordinance will be introduced on Sept. 15. If approved, it could impact the planned expansion of an existing data center in the Bayview neighborhood, according to \u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2026/09/data-center-moratorium-sf-board-of-supervisors/\">\u003cem>Mission Local\u003c/em>.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Walton said the moratorium could be extended up to 220 days, and potentially longer, if approved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A press release says San Francisco was following Southern California’s Monterey Park, which “moved from an interim moratorium to a permanent ban on Data Centers this past May.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We need to know all the impacts of having a data center in [the] community before we allow another data center to come inside of San Francisco,” Walton said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The proposal reflects growing public opposition to AI infrastructure. Similar proposals are expected around the Bay Area. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> officials want to halt the expansion of any new \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/data-centers\">data centers\u003c/a> in the city for 45 days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supervisor Shamann Walton plans to introduce a moratorium Tuesday that would pause all city approvals while the planning committee studies potential risks and creates new codes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As the boom in artificial intelligence, largely driven by big Silicon Valley firms, continues to drive demand for data centers, Walton’s proposal reflects \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099195/full-on-backlash-against-data-centers-occurring-as-san-jose-courts-them\">growing public opposition\u003c/a> to the infrastructure needed to support the technology. Similar moratoriums are scheduled to be considered in Richmond and Oakland in the coming weeks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099648\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-14-MC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco District 10 Supervisor Shamann Walton announces outside of San Francisco City Hall on Sept. 14, 2026, that he will vote for a 45-day moratorium on approving the construction of new data centers in the city. (Miles Cull/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" data-id=\"12099651\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099651\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-35-MC-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco District 11 Supervisor Chyanne Chen announces outside of San Francisco City Hall on Sept. 14, 2026, that she will vote for a 45-day moratorium on approving the construction of new data centers in the city. (Miles Cull/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099649\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/091426-SFDataCenterBan-23-MC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Geoffrea Morris speaks outside of San Francisco City Hall on Sept. 14, 2026, in support of a 45-day moratorium on approving the construction of new data centers. (Miles Cull/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a press release, Walton said the city’s current codes governing data centers haven’t been updated since 2001, long before the scale-up of AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We should not irresponsibly support technology,” Walton said at San Francisco City Hall on Monday, flanked by supervisors Jackie Fielder, Chyanne Chen and Connie Chan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without having the facts or information, that tells us will our communities be protected,” Walton said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.datacentermap.com/usa/california/san-francisco/\">12 data centers\u003c/a> in San Francisco, two are located in the Bayview neighborhood, which Walton represents. Residents in the area have raised health concerns over environmental issues for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The ordinance will be introduced on Sept. 15. If approved, it could impact the planned expansion of an existing data center in the Bayview neighborhood, according to \u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2026/09/data-center-moratorium-sf-board-of-supervisors/\">\u003cem>Mission Local\u003c/em>.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Walton said the moratorium could be extended up to 220 days, and potentially longer, if approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release says San Francisco was following Southern California’s Monterey Park, which “moved from an interim moratorium to a permanent ban on Data Centers this past May.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to know all the impacts of having a data center in [the] community before we allow another data center to come inside of San Francisco,” Walton said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "full-on-backlash-against-data-centers-occurring-as-san-jose-courts-them",
"title": "‘Full-on Backlash’ Against Data Centers Occurring as San José Courts Them",
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"headTitle": "‘Full-on Backlash’ Against Data Centers Occurring as San José Courts Them | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/santa-clara\">Santa Clara\u003c/a> has quietly become California’s data center capital. The sleepy suburb known for its quiet streets and professional football stadium is home to 60 data centers — more than any other city on the West Coast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cheap electricity sold by the city’s own power company has for years attracted major tech firms and data center developers seeking millions of dollars in savings over PG&E rates as they build out the hulking, cube-like structures full of computers, networking and cooling equipment. The city and its planners have also made it easy on developers seeking guidance and approvals, which are largely handled by the city’s planning commission. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now some local lawmakers are raising concerns. Kevin Park, a council member and tech worker who is running for mayor, said the city has gone too far, as the power company’s supply is strained and it has raised rates on residents to pay for major infrastructure upgrades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Let’s stop building data centers. And the water and the electricity and all the things that we’ll save, let’s use them for other things,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As the current artificial intelligence boom fuels rising demand for data centers in Silicon Valley, concern about their effects on the environment, resources and surrounding communities has burst into public discourse and turned the issue into a political hot potato. Local lawmakers are now scrambling to weigh constituents’ concerns against the prospect of embracing the economic windfall proponents say data centers can bring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098431\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Buildings in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate in a capacity similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While South Bay cities have so far not enacted temporary moratoriums like the one-year ban Oakley in the East Bay recently passed, some places, like Gilroy, have tightened data center approvals amid pushback to the massive buildings seemingly rising overnight. Statewide polling suggests most residents oppose building data centers to support the AI industry in their area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even in a city like Santa Clara, which has long leaned on data centers as a driver of revenue, some politicians, like Park, are calling for a halt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we took down a single mid-size data center using 20 to 40 megawatts of power, we could actually double the population of the city and not need a single additional watt of power,” Park said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The city, which has about 130,000 residents, is also home to tech behemoths like Nvidia, whose advanced processing units and software are at the center of the AI race and data center growth. “I don’t think people understand that’s the scale we’re talking about. Every large data center we put in can use the entire electric capacity of a city,” he said. “This is something we need to think about.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But lawmakers in neighboring San José are taking a different approach from what Park is proposing, leaning into the AI industry’s demand for larger, more energy-intensive data centers even as they try to assuage residents’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San José, with nearly 1 million residents, has for more than a year been actively courting data center development, hoping to provide a stable injection of property and utility taxes into city coffers. Officials say the city, historically a sprawling bedroom community that struggled to generate commercial revenue, currently has about 20 operating data centers. The projects require a special use permit, which must be approved at a public hearing. A planning commission or city council meeting is not always required. But for some projects with a significant environmental impact, the city council would make the final decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last summer, San José Mayor Matt Mahan \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049830/san-jose-and-pge-strike-deal-to-attract-data-centers-to-south-bay\">announced a deal\u003c/a> with PG&E that would guarantee power availability and quick connections for 10 major projects in the coming years. In a statement, the city said the pact would position San José as the “West Coast’s premier destination for data center development.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The city launched “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sjeconomy.com/how-we-help/programs-and-services/powering-san-jos-energy-infrastructure-for-data-centers\">concierge-style support\u003c/a>” for data center developers, made dozens of individual pitches and participated in industry events and conferences, leading to a near doubling of interest in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/data-center-and-other-large-energy-use-projects\">data center development\u003c/a> in the city by earlier this year, staff reports say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the city’s efforts to go all-in on data centers and other large energy-use projects have prompted fierce pushback.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think we’re in a full-on backlash against the buildout of the data centers, and not just in California, but in the country and really worldwide,” said Irina Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics Program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In part because of the trade-offs that these buildings require, in part because of lack of information and the way people have been surprised in so many places by the apparition of these big centers,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098429\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Homes in the south San José neighborhood near the lot intended to house a data center on Silver Creek Valley Road on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In North San José’s small Alviso neighborhood, a historically underserved portion of the city that has been heavily developed with tech campuses, corporate offices and research facilities, officials are expecting the buildout of at least three major data centers and large energy-use projects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Google is proposing to demolish an existing warehouse and build research and development facilities expected to draw about 250 megawatts of power. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“For context, 250 MW is larger than the average demand of all of Marin County in 2024, and about half the overall average demand of San Mateo County,” the California Public Utilities Commission \u003ca href=\"https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M607/K718/607718746.PDF\">said\u003c/a> in its review of the project. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not far away, Microsoft is already building a 99-megawatt data center with 224 natural gas generators to provide continual power when there are outages or the grid is overloaded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And on 159 acres of land used as a buffer between a wastewater facility jointly owned by San José and Santa Clara, the city has entered into an \u003ca href=\"https://sanjose.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14917877&GUID=45941F3A-0A60-42A1-8F04-B09281C6E2F3\">exclusive negotiating agreement\u003c/a> with Prologis, which is proposing a facility that in total would use 496 megawatts of electricity across data centers and research facilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098430\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ellina Yin stands outside a pair of buildings in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Based on those power estimates, the group of Alviso facilities at full capacity could use more energy daily than the \u003ca href=\"https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/home/showpublisheddocument/89484/639130534329930000\">entire city of Santa Clara\u003c/a> — with its dozens of data centers — currently does, said San José resident Ellina Yin, who has tracked data center development closely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So we’re putting an entire city’s worth of data centers in this tiny neighborhood, and the public health implications are unstudied. We don’t really understand what the future impacts could be,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A community listening session in San José last month turned out hundreds of people, most expressing concern about data centers and some calling for a moratorium on accepting applications from developers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mahan, a former tech worker, has said in the past that rejecting data center development outright would be akin to burying “our heads in the sand.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some residents said they sense a disconnect between what people are telling elected leaders and what policies are being advanced. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099272\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San José Mayor Matt Mahan takes notes during the city’s first community listening session focused on data centers on Aug. 19, 2026, at City Hall. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They don’t seem to care about the fact that a lot of people just really don’t want this in their backyard,” said Ken Thompson, a South San José resident who lives steps away from a proposed data center. “If the community doesn’t want it, if the local area around it doesn’t want it, then why are we forcing it upon them?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mahan doesn’t see it that way. Instead, the city has taken a build-the-airplane-while-flying-it approach, holding community meetings to gather feedback that will inform a planned beefing up of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095008/san-jose-weighs-data-center-benefits-as-residents-raise-environmental-concerns\">regulations and standards\u003c/a> for data center proposals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re going to set, with input from the community over the coming months, some of the highest, strictest standards in every category of concern we’ve heard,” Mahan said in an interview. “Labor standards, environmental protection, rate-payer protection, aesthetics and other community engagement and community benefits.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>City officials expect to present the City Council with the new standards by the end of the year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is much more important that we regulate Big Tech to get this right than to simply say ‘no’ and make it somebody else’s problem and lose the ability to shape this investment,” Mahan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098432\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Notice of Development Proposal is posted outside a building in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, business and industry trade groups representing the biggest tech companies and data center developers say data centers are paramount to the success of the digital economy, Silicon Valley’s continued status as an innovation engine and American dominance in AI technologies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If California is not positioned to continue rapidly deploying and scaling AI technology … if our state general fund, if our local community economies are not able to garner the benefits of this, it will go elsewhere,” said Ahmad Thomas, the CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the next 30 to 40 years of economic supremacy globally is going to be determined by who gets this right,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thomas said the data centers proposed in the Silicon Valley region are being developed responsibly, making use of renewable energy, recycled water, and offering community benefits. He said it’s a template all data center development should follow, and might assuage some concerns and fears. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our thesis is that listening to the community leads to better innovation. That has always been our working approach,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lot on Silver Creek Valley Road in south San José, which is intended to house a data center, on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Khara Boender, a spokesperson for the western division of the industry trade group Data Center Coalition, said data center backers want to be good neighbors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The industry is committed to paying for its full cost of service for electricity and the underlying infrastructure that it uses,” Boender said. “The industry is committed to responsible water use, and has made different investments in restoration and replenishment projects.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The buildings, which as recently as several years ago were much smaller and drew significantly smaller energy loads, were previously primarily used to house and exchange information across the internet, and later came to support all kinds of daily needs of a modern world, like social media, streaming services and video communication services for meetings and telehealth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They support the very fabric of our digital lives and every aspect of that,” said Dr. Andrew Chien, a professor of computer science at the University of Chicago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But newer data centers are packed with high-energy processing and computing elements that are increasingly used for AI, both to do the complex computational work needed to power AI chatbots and agents, and to train massive AI models and systems that are at the forefront of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chien said because AI is a fundamentally different way to deliver services, it has drastically increased the need for data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Traditionally with computing, a service like email or like social media, it’s mostly taking a piece of digital data and serving it up or maybe organizing a little bit and then serving it up. But when you talk to a chatbot, or you ask Claude to go do some complicated analysis or Gemini or ChatGPT, you actually trigger a gigantic number of numerical computations,” Chien said. “So there’s dramatically more energy required to do that. So it’s not only the growth of AI, it’s the fact that AI is a hugely energy-intensive way of delivering this intelligence.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rapid growth of data center proposals and industry bullishness have been met with growing grassroots resistance in Silicon Valley, led in part by Yin, the San José resident. One major factor fueling the resistance is a striking lack of clear information about how much power, water and other resources data centers use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yin said the financial and technological imperatives espoused by data center proponents shouldn’t trump the need for updated regulations and deeper understanding about the long-term, cumulative impacts across the region on things like air and water, which take time to develop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The scale that we’re seeing them be built out nationally is just, it’s overwhelming. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime. And I feel like there’s just a lack of due diligence that we cannot repeat from previous generations,” Yin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They are leaving that to the burden of future generations to deal with, just as when cell phones came, and we didn’t understand social media, and now look at the state of child development and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096647/why-metas-landmark-settlement-could-be-social-medias-big-tobacco-moment\">impact of social media\u003c/a> on the youth,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She pointed to the collection of Superfund polluted \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/388730/silicon-valleys-toxic-past-haunts-sunnyvale-neighborhood\">sites across Santa Clara County\u003c/a>, created by years of toxic material mismanagement in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11630861/how-silicon-valley-industry-polluted-the-sylvan-california-dream\">semiconductor industry\u003c/a> that flourished there decades ago, or the global plastics industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098427\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lot on Silver Creek Valley Road in south San José, which is intended to house a data center, on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We didn’t know any better. And now it’s in our bodies, it’s in our water, and the plastics industry did not come running to save us and to do all the reparations of correcting the damage that they caused. And so I don’t think I can trust that the AI industry is going to come and do the reparation of the impacts that they’re going to cause,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics program, co-authored \u003ca href=\"https://www.next10.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/Data-Centers-Water-Use-Report.pdf\">a report\u003c/a> on data centers and water use, and said the overall lack of clear information about the resource consumption of data centers by the companies proposing and operating them is striking, and more disclosure should be required. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some reports, like one out of \u003ca href=\"https://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt598.pdf\">Virginia\u003c/a>, which has the highest concentration of data centers in the country, say many there use as much water as large office buildings each year, between 4 million gallons and 10 million gallons. But others use far more, including one that uses 243 million gallons. The picture both locally and nationally isn’t always clear or comprehensive, Raicu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We don’t know how much energy and how much water data centers are using. And the demands are going to be different at the scale that we’re talking about for these new kinds of data centers,” she said, noting that \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/2026/09/sam-altman-almonds-chatgpt-water-california/\">researchers\u003c/a> have advocated for more detailed information. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The fact that it’s been such a multi-year battle in which only now are some companies voluntarily starting to disclose, data center by data center, what’s actually being used, that’s a big reason we’re seeing the pushback and the distrust,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099292\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ted Smith, a San José resident, expresses concerns about the impact of data centers during the city’s first community listening session focused on data centers on Aug. 19, 2026, at City Hall. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill last year that would have required water use disclosure by data center developers, and has another similar bill on his desk \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097457/the-data-center-backlash-is-here-and-big-tech-is-spending-big-to-combat-it\">this year\u003c/a>, along with a raft of other bills aimed at drawing more information from data center proponents and protecting electricity customers from paying higher rates in connection with them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thompson, the South San José resident, who lives in a small house on a former orchard, said he initially got involved in the push against data centers when he found out one could rise just steps from his home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Prologis is proposing a three-story, 99-megawatt data center that would include 44 diesel generators for backup power on Silver Creek Valley Road. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thompson said city officials told him current air quality regulations would limit the number of hours per year the center would be allowed to operate the generators, which produce toxic compounds when running during power outages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But if the penalty for [exceeding] that is a fine, then I have a sneaking suspicion that that’s not going to stop them … because the money that they make is going to be more than the fine,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The proposed site is next to a hiking trail and a city park, and less than a quarter-mile east of single-family home neighborhoods. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thompson said he opposes this data center and others like it because of the potential diesel emissions and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/17/us/data-centers-noise-pollution.html\">constant low-frequency sounds\u003c/a> they can emit that he worries could harm people or wildlife in the area next to Coyote Creek and the foothills. He’s also concerned about a more AI-driven world threatening workers and art, and perpetuating surveillance technology like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">license plate readers\u003c/a> mounted all over the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He participated in the community listening session and a small-group discussion facilitated by the city recently.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the things I found most interesting was they were also focusing on the fact that old data centers used to be just these hideous boxes and we’re going to try and regulate them to be more beautiful,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The funny thing to me is, it doesn’t matter to me what the color of the gun that’s pointed to my head is going to be,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Raicu thinks holistic conversations about how data centers are built, where they make sense and how they affect society need to be top priorities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“None of this is just a force of nature. These are decisions made by human beings. Regulations can be passed. There can be a lot more money spent on making more sustainable technology. There could be delays put in place as to whether you deploy something at this kind of scale,” she said. “All of that is just human decisions.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED Correspondent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/gmarzorati\">Guy Marzorati\u003c/a> contributed to this story. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/santa-clara\">Santa Clara\u003c/a> has quietly become California’s data center capital. The sleepy suburb known for its quiet streets and professional football stadium is home to 60 data centers — more than any other city on the West Coast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/santa-clara\">Santa Clara\u003c/a> has quietly become California’s data center capital. The sleepy suburb known for its quiet streets and professional football stadium is home to 60 data centers — more than any other city on the West Coast. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Cheap electricity sold by the city’s own power company has for years attracted major tech firms and data center developers seeking millions of dollars in savings over PG&E rates as they build out the hulking, cube-like structures full of computers, networking and cooling equipment. The city and its planners have also made it easy on developers seeking guidance and approvals, which are largely handled by the city’s planning commission. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Cheap electricity sold by the city’s own power company has for years attracted major tech firms and data center developers seeking millions of dollars in savings over PG&E rates as they build out the hulking, cube-like structures full of computers, networking and cooling equipment. The city and its planners have also made it easy on developers seeking guidance and approvals, which are largely handled by the city’s planning commission. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now some local lawmakers are raising concerns. Kevin Park, a council member and tech worker who is running for mayor, said the city has gone too far, as the power company’s supply is strained and it has raised rates on residents to pay for major infrastructure upgrades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But now some local lawmakers are raising concerns. Kevin Park, a council member and tech worker who is running for mayor, said the city has gone too far, as the power company’s supply is strained and it has raised rates on residents to pay for major infrastructure upgrades. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Let’s stop building data centers. And the water and the electricity and all the things that we’ll save, let’s use them for other things,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Let’s stop building data centers. And the water and the electricity and all the things that we’ll save, let’s use them for other things,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As the current artificial intelligence boom fuels rising demand for data centers in Silicon Valley, concern about their effects on the environment, resources and surrounding communities has burst into public discourse and turned the issue into a political hot potato. Local lawmakers are now scrambling to weigh constituents’ concerns against the prospect of embracing the economic windfall proponents say data centers can bring.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098431\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Buildings in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate in a capacity similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While South Bay cities have so far not enacted temporary moratoriums like the one-year ban Oakley in the East Bay recently passed, some places, like Gilroy, have tightened data center approvals amid pushback to the massive buildings seemingly rising overnight. Statewide polling suggests most residents oppose building data centers to support the AI industry in their area. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While South Bay cities have so far not enacted temporary moratoriums like the one-year ban Oakley in the East Bay recently passed, some places, like Gilroy, have tightened data center approvals amid pushback to the massive buildings seemingly rising overnight. Statewide polling suggests most residents oppose building data centers to support the AI industry in their area. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Even in a city like Santa Clara, which has long leaned on data centers as a driver of revenue, some politicians, like Park, are calling for a halt. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Even in a city like Santa Clara, which has long leaned on data centers as a driver of revenue, some politicians, like Park, are calling for a halt. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If we took down a single mid-size data center using 20 to 40 megawatts of power, we could actually double the population of the city and not need a single additional watt of power,” Park said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If we took down a single mid-size data center using 20 to 40 megawatts of power, we could actually double the population of the city and not need a single additional watt of power,” Park said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The city, which has about 130,000 residents, is also home to tech behemoths like Nvidia, whose advanced processing units and software are at the center of the AI race and data center growth. “I don’t think people understand that’s the scale we’re talking about. Every large data center we put in can use the entire electric capacity of a city,” he said. “This is something we need to think about.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But lawmakers in neighboring San José are taking a different approach from what Park is proposing, leaning into the AI industry’s demand for larger, more energy-intensive data centers even as they try to assuage residents’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But lawmakers in neighboring San José are taking a different approach from what Park is proposing, leaning into the AI industry’s demand for larger, more energy-intensive data centers even as they try to assuage residents’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San José, with nearly 1 million residents, has for more than a year been actively courting data center development, hoping to provide a stable injection of property and utility taxes into city coffers. Officials say the city, historically a sprawling bedroom community that struggled to generate commercial revenue, currently has about 20 operating data centers. The projects require a special use permit, which must be approved at a public hearing. A planning commission or city council meeting is not always required. But for some projects with a significant environmental impact, the city council would make the final decision.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San José, with nearly 1 million residents, has for more than a year been actively courting data center development, hoping to provide a stable injection of property and utility taxes into city coffers. Officials say the city, historically a sprawling bedroom community that struggled to generate commercial revenue, currently has about 20 operating data centers. The projects require a special use permit, which must be approved at a public hearing. A planning commission or city council meeting is not always required. But for some projects with a significant environmental impact, the city council would make the final decision.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Last summer, San José Mayor Matt Mahan \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049830/san-jose-and-pge-strike-deal-to-attract-data-centers-to-south-bay\">announced a deal\u003c/a> with PG&E that would guarantee power availability and quick connections for 10 major projects in the coming years. In a statement, the city said the pact would position San José as the “West Coast’s premier destination for data center development.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Last summer, San José Mayor Matt Mahan \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049830/san-jose-and-pge-strike-deal-to-attract-data-centers-to-south-bay\">announced a deal\u003c/a> with PG&E that would guarantee power availability and quick connections for 10 major projects in the coming years. In a statement, the city said the pact would position San José as the “West Coast’s premier destination for data center development.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The city launched “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sjeconomy.com/how-we-help/programs-and-services/powering-san-jos-energy-infrastructure-for-data-centers\">concierge-style support\u003c/a>” for data center developers, made dozens of individual pitches and participated in industry events and conferences, leading to a near doubling of interest in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/data-center-and-other-large-energy-use-projects\">data center development\u003c/a> in the city by earlier this year, staff reports say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The city launched “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sjeconomy.com/how-we-help/programs-and-services/powering-san-jos-energy-infrastructure-for-data-centers\">concierge-style support\u003c/a>” for data center developers, made dozens of individual pitches and participated in industry events and conferences, leading to a near doubling of interest in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/data-center-and-other-large-energy-use-projects\">data center development\u003c/a> in the city by earlier this year, staff reports say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the city’s efforts to go all-in on data centers and other large energy-use projects have prompted fierce pushback.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think we’re in a full-on backlash against the buildout of the data centers, and not just in California, but in the country and really worldwide,” said Irina Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics Program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think we’re in a full-on backlash against the buildout of the data centers, and not just in California, but in the country and really worldwide,” said Irina Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics Program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“In part because of the trade-offs that these buildings require, in part because of lack of information and the way people have been surprised in so many places by the apparition of these big centers,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“In part because of the trade-offs that these buildings require, in part because of lack of information and the way people have been surprised in so many places by the apparition of these big centers,” she said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098429\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Homes in the south San José neighborhood near the lot intended to house a data center on Silver Creek Valley Road on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098429\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Homes in the south San José neighborhood near the lot intended to house a data center on Silver Creek Valley Road on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In North San José’s small Alviso neighborhood, a historically underserved portion of the city that has been heavily developed with tech campuses, corporate offices and research facilities, officials are expecting the buildout of at least three major data centers and large energy-use projects. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In North San José’s small Alviso neighborhood, a historically underserved portion of the city that has been heavily developed with tech campuses, corporate offices and research facilities, officials are expecting the buildout of at least three major data centers and large energy-use projects. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Google is proposing to demolish an existing warehouse and build research and development facilities expected to draw about 250 megawatts of power. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“For context, 250 MW is larger than the average demand of all of Marin County in 2024, and about half the overall average demand of San Mateo County,” the California Public Utilities Commission \u003ca href=\"https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M607/K718/607718746.PDF\">said\u003c/a> in its review of the project. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“For context, 250 MW is larger than the average demand of all of Marin County in 2024, and about half the overall average demand of San Mateo County,” the California Public Utilities Commission \u003ca href=\"https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M607/K718/607718746.PDF\">said\u003c/a> in its review of the project. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Not far away, Microsoft is already building a 99-megawatt data center with 224 natural gas generators to provide continual power when there are outages or the grid is overloaded. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Not far away, Microsoft is already building a 99-megawatt data center with 224 natural gas generators to provide continual power when there are outages or the grid is overloaded. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And on 159 acres of land used as a buffer between a wastewater facility jointly owned by San José and Santa Clara, the city has entered into an \u003ca href=\"https://sanjose.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14917877&GUID=45941F3A-0A60-42A1-8F04-B09281C6E2F3\">exclusive negotiating agreement\u003c/a> with Prologis, which is proposing a facility that in total would use 496 megawatts of electricity across data centers and research facilities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And on 159 acres of land used as a buffer between a wastewater facility jointly owned by San José and Santa Clara, the city has entered into an \u003ca href=\"https://sanjose.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14917877&GUID=45941F3A-0A60-42A1-8F04-B09281C6E2F3\">exclusive negotiating agreement\u003c/a> with Prologis, which is proposing a facility that in total would use 496 megawatts of electricity across data centers and research facilities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098430\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ellina Yin stands outside a pair of buildings in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098430\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ellina Yin stands outside a pair of buildings in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Based on those power estimates, the group of Alviso facilities at full capacity could use more energy daily than the \u003ca href=\"https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/home/showpublisheddocument/89484/639130534329930000\">entire city of Santa Clara\u003c/a> — with its dozens of data centers — currently does, said San José resident Ellina Yin, who has tracked data center development closely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Based on those power estimates, the group of Alviso facilities at full capacity could use more energy daily than the \u003ca href=\"https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/home/showpublisheddocument/89484/639130534329930000\">entire city of Santa Clara\u003c/a> — with its dozens of data centers — currently does, said San José resident Ellina Yin, who has tracked data center development closely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“So we’re putting an entire city’s worth of data centers in this tiny neighborhood, and the public health implications are unstudied. We don’t really understand what the future impacts could be,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“So we’re putting an entire city’s worth of data centers in this tiny neighborhood, and the public health implications are unstudied. We don’t really understand what the future impacts could be,” she said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A community listening session in San José last month turned out hundreds of people, most expressing concern about data centers and some calling for a moratorium on accepting applications from developers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Mahan, a former tech worker, has said in the past that rejecting data center development outright would be akin to burying “our heads in the sand.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some residents said they sense a disconnect between what people are telling elected leaders and what policies are being advanced. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099272\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San José Mayor Matt Mahan takes notes during the city’s first community listening session focused on data centers on Aug. 19, 2026, at City Hall.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They don’t seem to care about the fact that a lot of people just really don’t want this in their backyard,” said Ken Thompson, a South San José resident who lives steps away from a proposed data center. “If the community doesn’t want it, if the local area around it doesn’t want it, then why are we forcing it upon them?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They don’t seem to care about the fact that a lot of people just really don’t want this in their backyard,” said Ken Thompson, a South San José resident who lives steps away from a proposed data center. “If the community doesn’t want it, if the local area around it doesn’t want it, then why are we forcing it upon them?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Mahan doesn’t see it that way. Instead, the city has taken a build-the-airplane-while-flying-it approach, holding community meetings to gather feedback that will inform a planned beefing up of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095008/san-jose-weighs-data-center-benefits-as-residents-raise-environmental-concerns\">regulations and standards\u003c/a> for data center proposals.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Mahan doesn’t see it that way. Instead, the city has taken a build-the-airplane-while-flying-it approach, holding community meetings to gather feedback that will inform a planned beefing up of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095008/san-jose-weighs-data-center-benefits-as-residents-raise-environmental-concerns\">regulations and standards\u003c/a> for data center proposals.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’re going to set, with input from the community over the coming months, some of the highest, strictest standards in every category of concern we’ve heard,” Mahan said in an interview. “Labor standards, environmental protection, rate-payer protection, aesthetics and other community engagement and community benefits.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We’re going to set, with input from the community over the coming months, some of the highest, strictest standards in every category of concern we’ve heard,” Mahan said in an interview. “Labor standards, environmental protection, rate-payer protection, aesthetics and other community engagement and community benefits.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>City officials expect to present the City Council with the new standards by the end of the year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It is much more important that we regulate Big Tech to get this right than to simply say ‘no’ and make it somebody else’s problem and lose the ability to shape this investment,” Mahan said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It is much more important that we regulate Big Tech to get this right than to simply say ‘no’ and make it somebody else’s problem and lose the ability to shape this investment,” Mahan said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098432\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Notice of Development Proposal is posted outside a building in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098432\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Notice of Development Proposal is posted outside a building in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, business and industry trade groups representing the biggest tech companies and data center developers say data centers are paramount to the success of the digital economy, Silicon Valley’s continued status as an innovation engine and American dominance in AI technologies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, business and industry trade groups representing the biggest tech companies and data center developers say data centers are paramount to the success of the digital economy, Silicon Valley’s continued status as an innovation engine and American dominance in AI technologies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If California is not positioned to continue rapidly deploying and scaling AI technology … if our state general fund, if our local community economies are not able to garner the benefits of this, it will go elsewhere,” said Ahmad Thomas, the CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If California is not positioned to continue rapidly deploying and scaling AI technology … if our state general fund, if our local community economies are not able to garner the benefits of this, it will go elsewhere,” said Ahmad Thomas, the CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think the next 30 to 40 years of economic supremacy globally is going to be determined by who gets this right,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think the next 30 to 40 years of economic supremacy globally is going to be determined by who gets this right,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thomas said the data centers proposed in the Silicon Valley region are being developed responsibly, making use of renewable energy, recycled water, and offering community benefits. He said it’s a template all data center development should follow, and might assuage some concerns and fears. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thomas said the data centers proposed in the Silicon Valley region are being developed responsibly, making use of renewable energy, recycled water, and offering community benefits. He said it’s a template all data center development should follow, and might assuage some concerns and fears. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our thesis is that listening to the community leads to better innovation. That has always been our working approach,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Our thesis is that listening to the community leads to better innovation. That has always been our working approach,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lot on Silver Creek Valley Road in south San José, which is intended to house a data center, on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098428\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lot on Silver Creek Valley Road in south San José, which is intended to house a data center, on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Khara Boender, a spokesperson for the western division of the industry trade group Data Center Coalition, said data center backers want to be good neighbors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The industry is committed to paying for its full cost of service for electricity and the underlying infrastructure that it uses,” Boender said. “The industry is committed to responsible water use, and has made different investments in restoration and replenishment projects.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The industry is committed to paying for its full cost of service for electricity and the underlying infrastructure that it uses,” Boender said. “The industry is committed to responsible water use, and has made different investments in restoration and replenishment projects.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The buildings, which as recently as several years ago were much smaller and drew significantly smaller energy loads, were previously primarily used to house and exchange information across the internet, and later came to support all kinds of daily needs of a modern world, like social media, streaming services and video communication services for meetings and telehealth. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The buildings, which as recently as several years ago were much smaller and drew significantly smaller energy loads, were previously primarily used to house and exchange information across the internet, and later came to support all kinds of daily needs of a modern world, like social media, streaming services and video communication services for meetings and telehealth. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They support the very fabric of our digital lives and every aspect of that,” said Dr. Andrew Chien, a professor of computer science at the University of Chicago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They support the very fabric of our digital lives and every aspect of that,” said Dr. Andrew Chien, a professor of computer science at the University of Chicago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But newer data centers are packed with high-energy processing and computing elements that are increasingly used for AI, both to do the complex computational work needed to power AI chatbots and agents, and to train massive AI models and systems that are at the forefront of the technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But newer data centers are packed with high-energy processing and computing elements that are increasingly used for AI, both to do the complex computational work needed to power AI chatbots and agents, and to train massive AI models and systems that are at the forefront of the technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Chien said because AI is a fundamentally different way to deliver services, it has drastically increased the need for data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Chien said because AI is a fundamentally different way to deliver services, it has drastically increased the need for data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Traditionally with computing, a service like email or like social media, it’s mostly taking a piece of digital data and serving it up or maybe organizing a little bit and then serving it up. But when you talk to a chatbot, or you ask Claude to go do some complicated analysis or Gemini or ChatGPT, you actually trigger a gigantic number of numerical computations,” Chien said. “So there’s dramatically more energy required to do that. So it’s not only the growth of AI, it’s the fact that AI is a hugely energy-intensive way of delivering this intelligence.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Traditionally with computing, a service like email or like social media, it’s mostly taking a piece of digital data and serving it up or maybe organizing a little bit and then serving it up. But when you talk to a chatbot, or you ask Claude to go do some complicated analysis or Gemini or ChatGPT, you actually trigger a gigantic number of numerical computations,” Chien said. “So there’s dramatically more energy required to do that. So it’s not only the growth of AI, it’s the fact that AI is a hugely energy-intensive way of delivering this intelligence.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rapid growth of data center proposals and industry bullishness have been met with growing grassroots resistance in Silicon Valley, led in part by Yin, the San José resident. One major factor fueling the resistance is a striking lack of clear information about how much power, water and other resources data centers use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rapid growth of data center proposals and industry bullishness have been met with growing grassroots resistance in Silicon Valley, led in part by Yin, the San José resident. One major factor fueling the resistance is a striking lack of clear information about how much power, water and other resources data centers use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yin said the financial and technological imperatives espoused by data center proponents shouldn’t trump the need for updated regulations and deeper understanding about the long-term, cumulative impacts across the region on things like air and water, which take time to develop. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yin said the financial and technological imperatives espoused by data center proponents shouldn’t trump the need for updated regulations and deeper understanding about the long-term, cumulative impacts across the region on things like air and water, which take time to develop. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The scale that we’re seeing them be built out nationally is just, it’s overwhelming. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime. And I feel like there’s just a lack of due diligence that we cannot repeat from previous generations,” Yin said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The scale that we’re seeing them be built out nationally is just, it’s overwhelming. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime. And I feel like there’s just a lack of due diligence that we cannot repeat from previous generations,” Yin said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They are leaving that to the burden of future generations to deal with, just as when cell phones came, and we didn’t understand social media, and now look at the state of child development and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096647/why-metas-landmark-settlement-could-be-social-medias-big-tobacco-moment\">impact of social media\u003c/a> on the youth,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They are leaving that to the burden of future generations to deal with, just as when cell phones came, and we didn’t understand social media, and now look at the state of child development and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096647/why-metas-landmark-settlement-could-be-social-medias-big-tobacco-moment\">impact of social media\u003c/a> on the youth,” she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She pointed to the collection of Superfund polluted \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/388730/silicon-valleys-toxic-past-haunts-sunnyvale-neighborhood\">sites across Santa Clara County\u003c/a>, created by years of toxic material mismanagement in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11630861/how-silicon-valley-industry-polluted-the-sylvan-california-dream\">semiconductor industry\u003c/a> that flourished there decades ago, or the global plastics industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She pointed to the collection of Superfund polluted \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/388730/silicon-valleys-toxic-past-haunts-sunnyvale-neighborhood\">sites across Santa Clara County\u003c/a>, created by years of toxic material mismanagement in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11630861/how-silicon-valley-industry-polluted-the-sylvan-california-dream\">semiconductor industry\u003c/a> that flourished there decades ago, or the global plastics industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098427\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lot on Silver Creek Valley Road in south San José, which is intended to house a data center, on Sept. 3, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We didn’t know any better. And now it’s in our bodies, it’s in our water, and the plastics industry did not come running to save us and to do all the reparations of correcting the damage that they caused. And so I don’t think I can trust that the AI industry is going to come and do the reparation of the impacts that they’re going to cause,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We didn’t know any better. And now it’s in our bodies, it’s in our water, and the plastics industry did not come running to save us and to do all the reparations of correcting the damage that they caused. And so I don’t think I can trust that the AI industry is going to come and do the reparation of the impacts that they’re going to cause,” she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics program, co-authored \u003ca href=\"https://www.next10.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/Data-Centers-Water-Use-Report.pdf\">a report\u003c/a> on data centers and water use, and said the overall lack of clear information about the resource consumption of data centers by the companies proposing and operating them is striking, and more disclosure should be required. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics program, co-authored \u003ca href=\"https://www.next10.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/Data-Centers-Water-Use-Report.pdf\">a report\u003c/a> on data centers and water use, and said the overall lack of clear information about the resource consumption of data centers by the companies proposing and operating them is striking, and more disclosure should be required. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some reports, like one out of \u003ca href=\"https://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt598.pdf\">Virginia\u003c/a>, which has the highest concentration of data centers in the country, say many there use as much water as large office buildings each year, between 4 million gallons and 10 million gallons. But others use far more, including one that uses 243 million gallons. The picture both locally and nationally isn’t always clear or comprehensive, Raicu said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some reports, like one out of \u003ca href=\"https://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt598.pdf\">Virginia\u003c/a>, which has the highest concentration of data centers in the country, say many there use as much water as large office buildings each year, between 4 million gallons and 10 million gallons. But others use far more, including one that uses 243 million gallons. The picture both locally and nationally isn’t always clear or comprehensive, Raicu said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We don’t know how much energy and how much water data centers are using. And the demands are going to be different at the scale that we’re talking about for these new kinds of data centers,” she said, noting that \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/2026/09/sam-altman-almonds-chatgpt-water-california/\">researchers\u003c/a> have advocated for more detailed information. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We don’t know how much energy and how much water data centers are using. And the demands are going to be different at the scale that we’re talking about for these new kinds of data centers,” she said, noting that \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/2026/09/sam-altman-almonds-chatgpt-water-california/\">researchers\u003c/a> have advocated for more detailed information. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The fact that it’s been such a multi-year battle in which only now are some companies voluntarily starting to disclose, data center by data center, what’s actually being used, that’s a big reason we’re seeing the pushback and the distrust,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099292\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ted Smith, a San José resident, expresses concerns about the impact of data centers during the city’s first community listening session focused on data centers on Aug. 19, 2026, at City Hall.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill last year that would have required water use disclosure by data center developers, and has another similar bill on his desk \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097457/the-data-center-backlash-is-here-and-big-tech-is-spending-big-to-combat-it\">this year\u003c/a>, along with a raft of other bills aimed at drawing more information from data center proponents and protecting electricity customers from paying higher rates in connection with them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thompson, the South San José resident, who lives in a small house on a former orchard, said he initially got involved in the push against data centers when he found out one could rise just steps from his home. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thompson, the South San José resident, who lives in a small house on a former orchard, said he initially got involved in the push against data centers when he found out one could rise just steps from his home. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Prologis is proposing a three-story, 99-megawatt data center that would include 44 diesel generators for backup power on Silver Creek Valley Road. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Prologis is proposing a three-story, 99-megawatt data center that would include 44 diesel generators for backup power on Silver Creek Valley Road. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thompson said city officials told him current air quality regulations would limit the number of hours per year the center would be allowed to operate the generators, which produce toxic compounds when running during power outages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“But if the penalty for [exceeding] that is a fine, then I have a sneaking suspicion that that’s not going to stop them … because the money that they make is going to be more than the fine,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“But if the penalty for [exceeding] that is a fine, then I have a sneaking suspicion that that’s not going to stop them … because the money that they make is going to be more than the fine,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The proposed site is next to a hiking trail and a city park, and less than a quarter-mile east of single-family home neighborhoods. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thompson said he opposes this data center and others like it because of the potential diesel emissions and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/17/us/data-centers-noise-pollution.html\">constant low-frequency sounds\u003c/a> they can emit that he worries could harm people or wildlife in the area next to Coyote Creek and the foothills. He’s also concerned about a more AI-driven world threatening workers and art, and perpetuating surveillance technology like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">license plate readers\u003c/a> mounted all over the city. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thompson said he opposes this data center and others like it because of the potential diesel emissions and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/17/us/data-centers-noise-pollution.html\">constant low-frequency sounds\u003c/a> they can emit that he worries could harm people or wildlife in the area next to Coyote Creek and the foothills. He’s also concerned about a more AI-driven world threatening workers and art, and perpetuating surveillance technology like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">license plate readers\u003c/a> mounted all over the city. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He participated in the community listening session and a small-group discussion facilitated by the city recently.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“One of the things I found most interesting was they were also focusing on the fact that old data centers used to be just these hideous boxes and we’re going to try and regulate them to be more beautiful,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“One of the things I found most interesting was they were also focusing on the fact that old data centers used to be just these hideous boxes and we’re going to try and regulate them to be more beautiful,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The funny thing to me is, it doesn’t matter to me what the color of the gun that’s pointed to my head is going to be,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“The funny thing to me is, it doesn’t matter to me what the color of the gun that’s pointed to my head is going to be,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Raicu thinks holistic conversations about how data centers are built, where they make sense and how they affect society need to be top priorities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“None of this is just a force of nature. These are decisions made by human beings. Regulations can be passed. There can be a lot more money spent on making more sustainable technology. There could be delays put in place as to whether you deploy something at this kind of scale,” she said. “All of that is just human decisions.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“None of this is just a force of nature. These are decisions made by human beings. Regulations can be passed. There can be a lot more money spent on making more sustainable technology. There could be delays put in place as to whether you deploy something at this kind of scale,” she said. “All of that is just human decisions.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED Correspondent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/gmarzorati\">Guy Marzorati\u003c/a> contributed to this story. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED Correspondent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/gmarzorati\">Guy Marzorati\u003c/a> contributed to this story. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/santa-clara\">Santa Clara\u003c/a> has quietly become California’s data center capital. The sleepy suburb known for its quiet streets and professional football stadium is home to 60 data centers — more than any other city on the West Coast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cheap electricity sold by the city’s own power company has for years attracted major tech firms and data center developers seeking millions of dollars in savings over PG&E rates as they build out the hulking, cube-like structures full of computers, networking and cooling equipment. The city and its planners have also made it easy on developers seeking guidance and approvals, which are largely handled by the city’s planning commission. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now some local lawmakers are raising concerns. Kevin Park, a council member and tech worker who is running for mayor, said the city has gone too far, as the power company’s supply is strained and it has raised rates on residents to pay for major infrastructure upgrades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Let’s stop building data centers. And the water and the electricity and all the things that we’ll save, let’s use them for other things,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As the current artificial intelligence boom fuels rising demand for data centers in Silicon Valley, concern about their effects on the environment, resources and surrounding communities has burst into public discourse and turned the issue into a political hot potato. Local lawmakers are now scrambling to weigh constituents’ concerns against the prospect of embracing the economic windfall proponents say data centers can bring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098431\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Buildings in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate in a capacity similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While South Bay cities have so far not enacted temporary moratoriums like the one-year ban Oakley in the East Bay recently passed, some places, like Gilroy, have tightened data center approvals amid pushback to the massive buildings seemingly rising overnight. Statewide polling suggests most residents oppose building data centers to support the AI industry in their area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even in a city like Santa Clara, which has long leaned on data centers as a driver of revenue, some politicians, like Park, are calling for a halt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we took down a single mid-size data center using 20 to 40 megawatts of power, we could actually double the population of the city and not need a single additional watt of power,” Park said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The city, which has about 130,000 residents, is also home to tech behemoths like Nvidia, whose advanced processing units and software are at the center of the AI race and data center growth. “I don’t think people understand that’s the scale we’re talking about. Every large data center we put in can use the entire electric capacity of a city,” he said. “This is something we need to think about.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But lawmakers in neighboring San José are taking a different approach from what Park is proposing, leaning into the AI industry’s demand for larger, more energy-intensive data centers even as they try to assuage residents’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San José, with nearly 1 million residents, has for more than a year been actively courting data center development, hoping to provide a stable injection of property and utility taxes into city coffers. Officials say the city, historically a sprawling bedroom community that struggled to generate commercial revenue, currently has about 20 operating data centers. The projects require a special use permit, which must be approved at a public hearing. A planning commission or city council meeting is not always required. But for some projects with a significant environmental impact, the city council would make the final decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last summer, San José Mayor Matt Mahan \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049830/san-jose-and-pge-strike-deal-to-attract-data-centers-to-south-bay\">announced a deal\u003c/a> with PG&E that would guarantee power availability and quick connections for 10 major projects in the coming years. In a statement, the city said the pact would position San José as the “West Coast’s premier destination for data center development.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The city launched “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sjeconomy.com/how-we-help/programs-and-services/powering-san-jos-energy-infrastructure-for-data-centers\">concierge-style support\u003c/a>” for data center developers, made dozens of individual pitches and participated in industry events and conferences, leading to a near doubling of interest in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/data-center-and-other-large-energy-use-projects\">data center development\u003c/a> in the city by earlier this year, staff reports say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the city’s efforts to go all-in on data centers and other large energy-use projects have prompted fierce pushback.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think we’re in a full-on backlash against the buildout of the data centers, and not just in California, but in the country and really worldwide,” said Irina Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics Program at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In part because of the trade-offs that these buildings require, in part because of lack of information and the way people have been surprised in so many places by the apparition of these big centers,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098429\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Homes in the south San José neighborhood near the lot intended to house a data center on Silver Creek Valley Road on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In North San José’s small Alviso neighborhood, a historically underserved portion of the city that has been heavily developed with tech campuses, corporate offices and research facilities, officials are expecting the buildout of at least three major data centers and large energy-use projects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Google is proposing to demolish an existing warehouse and build research and development facilities expected to draw about 250 megawatts of power. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“For context, 250 MW is larger than the average demand of all of Marin County in 2024, and about half the overall average demand of San Mateo County,” the California Public Utilities Commission \u003ca href=\"https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M607/K718/607718746.PDF\">said\u003c/a> in its review of the project. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not far away, Microsoft is already building a 99-megawatt data center with 224 natural gas generators to provide continual power when there are outages or the grid is overloaded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And on 159 acres of land used as a buffer between a wastewater facility jointly owned by San José and Santa Clara, the city has entered into an \u003ca href=\"https://sanjose.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14917877&GUID=45941F3A-0A60-42A1-8F04-B09281C6E2F3\">exclusive negotiating agreement\u003c/a> with Prologis, which is proposing a facility that in total would use 496 megawatts of electricity across data centers and research facilities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098430\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-06-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ellina Yin stands outside a pair of buildings in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Based on those power estimates, the group of Alviso facilities at full capacity could use more energy daily than the \u003ca href=\"https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/home/showpublisheddocument/89484/639130534329930000\">entire city of Santa Clara\u003c/a> — with its dozens of data centers — currently does, said San José resident Ellina Yin, who has tracked data center development closely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“So we’re putting an entire city’s worth of data centers in this tiny neighborhood, and the public health implications are unstudied. We don’t really understand what the future impacts could be,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A community listening session in San José last month turned out hundreds of people, most expressing concern about data centers and some calling for a moratorium on accepting applications from developers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mahan, a former tech worker, has said in the past that rejecting data center development outright would be akin to burying “our heads in the sand.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some residents said they sense a disconnect between what people are telling elected leaders and what policies are being advanced. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099272\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-3_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San José Mayor Matt Mahan takes notes during the city’s first community listening session focused on data centers on Aug. 19, 2026, at City Hall. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They don’t seem to care about the fact that a lot of people just really don’t want this in their backyard,” said Ken Thompson, a South San José resident who lives steps away from a proposed data center. “If the community doesn’t want it, if the local area around it doesn’t want it, then why are we forcing it upon them?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mahan doesn’t see it that way. Instead, the city has taken a build-the-airplane-while-flying-it approach, holding community meetings to gather feedback that will inform a planned beefing up of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095008/san-jose-weighs-data-center-benefits-as-residents-raise-environmental-concerns\">regulations and standards\u003c/a> for data center proposals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re going to set, with input from the community over the coming months, some of the highest, strictest standards in every category of concern we’ve heard,” Mahan said in an interview. “Labor standards, environmental protection, rate-payer protection, aesthetics and other community engagement and community benefits.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>City officials expect to present the City Council with the new standards by the end of the year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is much more important that we regulate Big Tech to get this right than to simply say ‘no’ and make it somebody else’s problem and lose the ability to shape this investment,” Mahan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098432\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-08-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Notice of Development Proposal is posted outside a building in the Alviso neighborhood of San José that Google plans to modify to operate similar to a data center on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, business and industry trade groups representing the biggest tech companies and data center developers say data centers are paramount to the success of the digital economy, Silicon Valley’s continued status as an innovation engine and American dominance in AI technologies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If California is not positioned to continue rapidly deploying and scaling AI technology … if our state general fund, if our local community economies are not able to garner the benefits of this, it will go elsewhere,” said Ahmad Thomas, the CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the next 30 to 40 years of economic supremacy globally is going to be determined by who gets this right,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thomas said the data centers proposed in the Silicon Valley region are being developed responsibly, making use of renewable energy, recycled water, and offering community benefits. He said it’s a template all data center development should follow, and might assuage some concerns and fears. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our thesis is that listening to the community leads to better innovation. That has always been our working approach,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-04-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lot on Silver Creek Valley Road in south San José, which is intended to house a data center, on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Khara Boender, a spokesperson for the western division of the industry trade group Data Center Coalition, said data center backers want to be good neighbors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The industry is committed to paying for its full cost of service for electricity and the underlying infrastructure that it uses,” Boender said. “The industry is committed to responsible water use, and has made different investments in restoration and replenishment projects.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The buildings, which as recently as several years ago were much smaller and drew significantly smaller energy loads, were previously primarily used to house and exchange information across the internet, and later came to support all kinds of daily needs of a modern world, like social media, streaming services and video communication services for meetings and telehealth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They support the very fabric of our digital lives and every aspect of that,” said Dr. Andrew Chien, a professor of computer science at the University of Chicago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But newer data centers are packed with high-energy processing and computing elements that are increasingly used for AI, both to do the complex computational work needed to power AI chatbots and agents, and to train massive AI models and systems that are at the forefront of the technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chien said because AI is a fundamentally different way to deliver services, it has drastically increased the need for data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Traditionally with computing, a service like email or like social media, it’s mostly taking a piece of digital data and serving it up or maybe organizing a little bit and then serving it up. But when you talk to a chatbot, or you ask Claude to go do some complicated analysis or Gemini or ChatGPT, you actually trigger a gigantic number of numerical computations,” Chien said. “So there’s dramatically more energy required to do that. So it’s not only the growth of AI, it’s the fact that AI is a hugely energy-intensive way of delivering this intelligence.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rapid growth of data center proposals and industry bullishness have been met with growing grassroots resistance in Silicon Valley, led in part by Yin, the San José resident. One major factor fueling the resistance is a striking lack of clear information about how much power, water and other resources data centers use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yin said the financial and technological imperatives espoused by data center proponents shouldn’t trump the need for updated regulations and deeper understanding about the long-term, cumulative impacts across the region on things like air and water, which take time to develop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The scale that we’re seeing them be built out nationally is just, it’s overwhelming. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime. And I feel like there’s just a lack of due diligence that we cannot repeat from previous generations,” Yin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They are leaving that to the burden of future generations to deal with, just as when cell phones came, and we didn’t understand social media, and now look at the state of child development and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096647/why-metas-landmark-settlement-could-be-social-medias-big-tobacco-moment\">impact of social media\u003c/a> on the youth,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She pointed to the collection of Superfund polluted \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/388730/silicon-valleys-toxic-past-haunts-sunnyvale-neighborhood\">sites across Santa Clara County\u003c/a>, created by years of toxic material mismanagement in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11630861/how-silicon-valley-industry-polluted-the-sylvan-california-dream\">semiconductor industry\u003c/a> that flourished there decades ago, or the global plastics industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098427\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260828-SOUTH-BAY-DATA-CENTERS-MD-03-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lot on Silver Creek Valley Road in south San José, which is intended to house a data center, on Sept. 3, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We didn’t know any better. And now it’s in our bodies, it’s in our water, and the plastics industry did not come running to save us and to do all the reparations of correcting the damage that they caused. And so I don’t think I can trust that the AI industry is going to come and do the reparation of the impacts that they’re going to cause,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Raicu, the director of the Internet Ethics program, co-authored \u003ca href=\"https://www.next10.org/sites/default/files/2026-05/Data-Centers-Water-Use-Report.pdf\">a report\u003c/a> on data centers and water use, and said the overall lack of clear information about the resource consumption of data centers by the companies proposing and operating them is striking, and more disclosure should be required. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some reports, like one out of \u003ca href=\"https://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt598.pdf\">Virginia\u003c/a>, which has the highest concentration of data centers in the country, say many there use as much water as large office buildings each year, between 4 million gallons and 10 million gallons. But others use far more, including one that uses 243 million gallons. The picture both locally and nationally isn’t always clear or comprehensive, Raicu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We don’t know how much energy and how much water data centers are using. And the demands are going to be different at the scale that we’re talking about for these new kinds of data centers,” she said, noting that \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/2026/09/sam-altman-almonds-chatgpt-water-california/\">researchers\u003c/a> have advocated for more detailed information. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The fact that it’s been such a multi-year battle in which only now are some companies voluntarily starting to disclose, data center by data center, what’s actually being used, that’s a big reason we’re seeing the pushback and the distrust,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099292\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260819-SJDATALISTEN-JG-2_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ted Smith, a San José resident, expresses concerns about the impact of data centers during the city’s first community listening session focused on data centers on Aug. 19, 2026, at City Hall. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill last year that would have required water use disclosure by data center developers, and has another similar bill on his desk \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097457/the-data-center-backlash-is-here-and-big-tech-is-spending-big-to-combat-it\">this year\u003c/a>, along with a raft of other bills aimed at drawing more information from data center proponents and protecting electricity customers from paying higher rates in connection with them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thompson, the South San José resident, who lives in a small house on a former orchard, said he initially got involved in the push against data centers when he found out one could rise just steps from his home. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Prologis is proposing a three-story, 99-megawatt data center that would include 44 diesel generators for backup power on Silver Creek Valley Road. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thompson said city officials told him current air quality regulations would limit the number of hours per year the center would be allowed to operate the generators, which produce toxic compounds when running during power outages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But if the penalty for [exceeding] that is a fine, then I have a sneaking suspicion that that’s not going to stop them … because the money that they make is going to be more than the fine,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The proposed site is next to a hiking trail and a city park, and less than a quarter-mile east of single-family home neighborhoods. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thompson said he opposes this data center and others like it because of the potential diesel emissions and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/17/us/data-centers-noise-pollution.html\">constant low-frequency sounds\u003c/a> they can emit that he worries could harm people or wildlife in the area next to Coyote Creek and the foothills. He’s also concerned about a more AI-driven world threatening workers and art, and perpetuating surveillance technology like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">license plate readers\u003c/a> mounted all over the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He participated in the community listening session and a small-group discussion facilitated by the city recently.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the things I found most interesting was they were also focusing on the fact that old data centers used to be just these hideous boxes and we’re going to try and regulate them to be more beautiful,” Thompson said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The funny thing to me is, it doesn’t matter to me what the color of the gun that’s pointed to my head is going to be,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Raicu thinks holistic conversations about how data centers are built, where they make sense and how they affect society need to be top priorities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“None of this is just a force of nature. These are decisions made by human beings. Regulations can be passed. There can be a lot more money spent on making more sustainable technology. There could be delays put in place as to whether you deploy something at this kind of scale,” she said. “All of that is just human decisions.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED Correspondent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/gmarzorati\">Guy Marzorati\u003c/a> contributed to this story. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "gov-newsom-signs-sweeping-new-rules-for-online-child-safety",
"title": "Gov. Newsom Signs Sweeping New Rules for Online Child Safety ",
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"headTitle": "Gov. Newsom Signs Sweeping New Rules for Online Child Safety | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a package of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/children\">online child safety bills\u003c/a> Thursday, enacting some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/10/governor-newsom-signs-the-strongest-child-safety-chatbot-and-social-media-laws-in-the-nation/\">strongest protections\u003c/a> for young users in the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The measures include \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb1119\">Senate Bill 1119\u003c/a>, co-authored by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, and Assemblymembers Buffy Wicks, D-Oakland, and Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, which requires operators of AI companion chatbots to assess the risks their products pose to children, document what they find and hand the results to an independent auditor. The bill also requires parental controls and in-app crisis support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2\">Assembly Bill 2\u003c/a>, from Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, raises the damages a large social media company can face when its conduct harms a child. Lowenthal \u003ca href=\"https://lowenthal.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250512-california-assembly-passes-groundbreaking-legislation-hold-social-media\">pursued\u003c/a> the measure across three legislative sessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1709\">AB 1709\u003c/a> bars social media platforms from serving addictive engagement features to users under 16. It passed the Legislature without a no vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094819\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. Gov. Gavin Newsom announced he will sign a bill that prohibits social media platforms from providing addictive features to users under the age of 16, the first law of its kind in the nation. (Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re establishing a framework,” Newsom said in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WIlU6xZ2JY\">press conference\u003c/a> Thursday announcing the package, “so that we can really enact a more aggressive posture as it relates to enforcement.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom also spoke at the event, reflecting her behind-the-scenes engagement with the policy debate over how best to protect children online. “Today has been a long time in coming,” she said. “And this one is truly for the kids. The kids who are with us, and the kids, like Adam and Owl, who are not.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Standing behind the documentary filmmaker were two mothers of children who died by suicide: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080610/california-mom-who-lost-her-son-to-an-ai-chatbot-is-now-fighting-to-regulate-them\">Maria Raine\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096121/she-died-by-design-meta-on-trial-over-child-safety\">Victoria Hinks\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is an incredible moment,” said Jim Steyer, whose group, Common Sense Media, backed all three bills. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speaking at the same press conference, Steyer called the legislative package “the first step in the United States towards comprehensive regulation and common-sense guardrails around these platforms.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day earlier, Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/09/governor-newsom-signs-first-in-the-nation-ai-safeguards-to-protect-californians-calls-on-the-federal-government-to-do-its-part/\">signed\u003c/a> two bills that set up some of the enforcement infrastructure that would strengthen the hand of state regulators, especially when it comes to AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1405\">AB 1405\u003c/a>, from Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, creates a state registry of independent AI auditors and sets standards for their independence, transparency and integrity.\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\"> \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\">SB 813\u003c/a>, from Sen. Jerry McNerney, D-Pleasanton, establishes a framework for independent verification organizations, expert panels that can set the standards those auditors would uphold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you have a financial institution, they have to be audited by a third-party independent source,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just as some government procurement contracts already hold AI developers accountable to federal law, Bauer-Kahan said the bills just signed into law would establish an auditing scheme in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The registry will begin to take shape in January, and Bauer-Kahan said it will expand to include a new category of job with a short history: that of the AI auditor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2291604853-scaled-e1789079469144.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099093\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Media gathers to hear remarks from Victoria Hinks, whose daughter, Alexandra “Owl” Hinks, died in a case that prosecutors allege was related to social media use, outside of the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building on Aug. 26, 2026, in Oakland, California. Hinks appeared with First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom at the signing of the new child safety laws on Sept. 10, 2026. (Heather Diehl/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California already has a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054490/child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt\">companion chatbot law\u003c/a>, requiring companion chatbots to tell minors they’re talking to a machine and to route users in crisis to help. But California is not alone legislating in this space: New York’s companion chatbot law took effect last November, and Idaho, Oregon and Washington passed their own rules this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is so great to see SB 1119 signed into law,” Chris Lehane, vice president of global affairs at OpenAI, wrote in a statement. “It both meets the moment for parents and sets teens up for educational success. … Amongst several key elements, the bill treats teens as teens when it comes to making sure AI is both safe and a tool to help contribute to their ability to learn.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson commented specifically on two of the bills, AB 1709 and SB 1119. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding SB 1119, the spokesperson wrote Meta is still evaluating the new law, but supports chatbot regulation that “empowers parents to make decisions about how their families use these tools, while making sure key educational and enrichment tools are available to teens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to YouTube, TikTok and Snap for comment. They have not yet responded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“While more work is needed to ensure AI developers are required to have safeguards evaluated by independent third-party experts, we commend Sen. McNerney and Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan for their leadership on these important issues,” Fernandez wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The signings come on the heels of social media posts from Jacob Coxon, a former Anthropic researcher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coxon resigned this week over the company’s business practices, warning that both Anthropic and its competitor OpenAI are “racing straight to self-improving super-intelligence and gambling with our lives.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan was more interested in the public reaction than the warning itself, which she said covered familiar ground. Bigger statements from larger groups of researchers, she said, have come and gone without breaking through — a shift she also sees in the fights over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098559/newsoms-final-months-a-failed-deal-and-regulating-ai\">data centers\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What worries her most isn’t the doomsday scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The measures include \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb1119\">Senate Bill 1119\u003c/a>, co-authored by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, and Assemblymembers Buffy Wicks, D-Oakland, and Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, which requires operators of AI companion chatbots to assess the risks their products pose to children, document what they find and hand the results to an independent auditor. The bill also requires parental controls and in-app crisis support.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The measures include \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb1119\">Senate Bill 1119\u003c/a>, co-authored by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, and Assemblymembers Buffy Wicks, D-Oakland, and Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, which requires operators of AI companion chatbots to assess the risks their products pose to children, document what they find and hand the results to an independent auditor. The bill also requires parental controls and in-app crisis support.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2\">Assembly Bill 2\u003c/a>, from Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, raises the damages a large social media company can face when its conduct harms a child. Lowenthal \u003ca href=\"https://lowenthal.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250512-california-assembly-passes-groundbreaking-legislation-hold-social-media\">pursued\u003c/a> the measure across three legislative sessions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2\">Assembly Bill 2\u003c/a>, from Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, raises the damages a large social media company can face when its conduct harms a child. Lowenthal \u003ca href=\"https://lowenthal.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250512-california-assembly-passes-groundbreaking-legislation-hold-social-media\">pursued\u003c/a> the measure across three legislative sessions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1709\">AB 1709\u003c/a> bars social media platforms from serving addictive engagement features to users under 16. It passed the Legislature without a no vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’re establishing a framework,” Newsom said in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WIlU6xZ2JY\">press conference\u003c/a> Thursday announcing the package, “so that we can really enact a more aggressive posture as it relates to enforcement.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>First partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom also spoke at the event, reflecting her behind-the-scenes engagement with the policy debate over how best to protect children online. “Today has been a long time in coming,” she said. “And this one is truly for the kids. The kids who are with us, and the kids, like Adam and Owl, who are not.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Standing behind the documentary filmmaker were two mothers of children who died by suicide: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080610/california-mom-who-lost-her-son-to-an-ai-chatbot-is-now-fighting-to-regulate-them\">Maria Raine\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096121/she-died-by-design-meta-on-trial-over-child-safety\">Victoria Hinks\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is an incredible moment,” said Jim Steyer, whose group, Common Sense Media, backed all three bills. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Speaking at the same press conference, Steyer called the legislative package “the first step in the United States towards comprehensive regulation and common-sense guardrails around these platforms.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A day earlier, Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/09/governor-newsom-signs-first-in-the-nation-ai-safeguards-to-protect-californians-calls-on-the-federal-government-to-do-its-part/\">signed\u003c/a> two bills that set up some of the enforcement infrastructure that would strengthen the hand of state regulators, especially when it comes to AI developers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1405\">AB 1405\u003c/a>, from Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, creates a state registry of independent AI auditors and sets standards for their independence, transparency and integrity.\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\"> \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\">SB 813\u003c/a>, from Sen. Jerry McNerney, D-Pleasanton, establishes a framework for independent verification organizations, expert panels that can set the standards those auditors would uphold.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When you have a financial institution, they have to be audited by a third-party independent source,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just as some government procurement contracts already hold AI developers accountable to federal law, Bauer-Kahan said the bills just signed into law would establish an auditing scheme in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The registry will begin to take shape in January, and Bauer-Kahan said it will expand to include a new category of job with a short history: that of the AI auditor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2291604853-scaled-e1789079469144.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099093\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Media gathers to hear remarks from Victoria Hinks, whose daughter, Alexandra “Owl” Hinks, died in a case that prosecutors allege was related to social media use, outside of the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building on Aug. 26, 2026, in Oakland, California. Hinks appeared with First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom at the signing of the new child safety laws on Sept. 10, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Heather Diehl/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2291604853-scaled-e1789079469144.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099093\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Media gathers to hear remarks from Victoria Hinks, whose daughter, Alexandra “Owl” Hinks, died in a case that prosecutors allege was related to social media use, outside of the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building on Aug. 26, 2026, in Oakland, California. Hinks appeared with First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom at the signing of the new child safety laws on Sept. 10, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Heather Diehl/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>California already has a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054490/child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt\">companion chatbot law\u003c/a>, requiring companion chatbots to tell minors they’re talking to a machine and to route users in crisis to help. But California is not alone legislating in this space: New York’s companion chatbot law took effect last November, and Idaho, Oregon and Washington passed their own rules this year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It is so great to see SB 1119 signed into law,” Chris Lehane, vice president of global affairs at OpenAI, wrote in a statement. “It both meets the moment for parents and sets teens up for educational success. … Amongst several key elements, the bill treats teens as teens when it comes to making sure AI is both safe and a tool to help contribute to their ability to learn.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson commented specifically on two of the bills, AB 1709 and SB 1119. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Regarding SB 1119, the spokesperson wrote Meta is still evaluating the new law, but supports chatbot regulation that “empowers parents to make decisions about how their families use these tools, while making sure key educational and enrichment tools are available to teens.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to YouTube, TikTok and Snap for comment. They have not yet responded.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“While more work is needed to ensure AI developers are required to have safeguards evaluated by independent third-party experts, we commend Sen. McNerney and Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan for their leadership on these important issues,” Fernandez wrote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The signings come on the heels of social media posts from Jacob Coxon, a former Anthropic researcher.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Coxon resigned this week over the company’s business practices, warning that both Anthropic and its competitor OpenAI are “racing straight to self-improving super-intelligence and gambling with our lives.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan was more interested in the public reaction than the warning itself, which she said covered familiar ground. Bigger statements from larger groups of researchers, she said, have come and gone without breaking through — a shift she also sees in the fights over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098559/newsoms-final-months-a-failed-deal-and-regulating-ai\">data centers\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a package of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/children\">online child safety bills\u003c/a> Thursday, enacting some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/10/governor-newsom-signs-the-strongest-child-safety-chatbot-and-social-media-laws-in-the-nation/\">strongest protections\u003c/a> for young users in the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The measures include \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb1119\">Senate Bill 1119\u003c/a>, co-authored by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, and Assemblymembers Buffy Wicks, D-Oakland, and Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, which requires operators of AI companion chatbots to assess the risks their products pose to children, document what they find and hand the results to an independent auditor. The bill also requires parental controls and in-app crisis support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2\">Assembly Bill 2\u003c/a>, from Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal, D-Long Beach, raises the damages a large social media company can face when its conduct harms a child. Lowenthal \u003ca href=\"https://lowenthal.asmdc.org/press-releases/20250512-california-assembly-passes-groundbreaking-legislation-hold-social-media\">pursued\u003c/a> the measure across three legislative sessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1709\">AB 1709\u003c/a> bars social media platforms from serving addictive engagement features to users under 16. It passed the Legislature without a no vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094819\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/MetaTeensGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Three teenage boys look at their smartphone screens on April 11, 2026. Gov. Gavin Newsom announced he will sign a bill that prohibits social media platforms from providing addictive features to users under the age of 16, the first law of its kind in the nation. (Matt Cardy/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re establishing a framework,” Newsom said in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WIlU6xZ2JY\">press conference\u003c/a> Thursday announcing the package, “so that we can really enact a more aggressive posture as it relates to enforcement.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom also spoke at the event, reflecting her behind-the-scenes engagement with the policy debate over how best to protect children online. “Today has been a long time in coming,” she said. “And this one is truly for the kids. The kids who are with us, and the kids, like Adam and Owl, who are not.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Standing behind the documentary filmmaker were two mothers of children who died by suicide: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080610/california-mom-who-lost-her-son-to-an-ai-chatbot-is-now-fighting-to-regulate-them\">Maria Raine\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12096121/she-died-by-design-meta-on-trial-over-child-safety\">Victoria Hinks\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is an incredible moment,” said Jim Steyer, whose group, Common Sense Media, backed all three bills. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speaking at the same press conference, Steyer called the legislative package “the first step in the United States towards comprehensive regulation and common-sense guardrails around these platforms.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day earlier, Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/09/governor-newsom-signs-first-in-the-nation-ai-safeguards-to-protect-californians-calls-on-the-federal-government-to-do-its-part/\">signed\u003c/a> two bills that set up some of the enforcement infrastructure that would strengthen the hand of state regulators, especially when it comes to AI developers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1405\">AB 1405\u003c/a>, from Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, creates a state registry of independent AI auditors and sets standards for their independence, transparency and integrity.\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\"> \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb813\">SB 813\u003c/a>, from Sen. Jerry McNerney, D-Pleasanton, establishes a framework for independent verification organizations, expert panels that can set the standards those auditors would uphold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you have a financial institution, they have to be audited by a third-party independent source,” Bauer-Kahan told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just as some government procurement contracts already hold AI developers accountable to federal law, Bauer-Kahan said the bills just signed into law would establish an auditing scheme in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The registry will begin to take shape in January, and Bauer-Kahan said it will expand to include a new category of job with a short history: that of the AI auditor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2291604853-scaled-e1789079469144.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099093\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Media gathers to hear remarks from Victoria Hinks, whose daughter, Alexandra “Owl” Hinks, died in a case that prosecutors allege was related to social media use, outside of the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building on Aug. 26, 2026, in Oakland, California. Hinks appeared with First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom at the signing of the new child safety laws on Sept. 10, 2026. (Heather Diehl/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California already has a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054490/child-safety-groups-demand-mental-health-guardrails-after-california-teens-suicide-using-chatgpt\">companion chatbot law\u003c/a>, requiring companion chatbots to tell minors they’re talking to a machine and to route users in crisis to help. But California is not alone legislating in this space: New York’s companion chatbot law took effect last November, and Idaho, Oregon and Washington passed their own rules this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is so great to see SB 1119 signed into law,” Chris Lehane, vice president of global affairs at OpenAI, wrote in a statement. “It both meets the moment for parents and sets teens up for educational success. … Amongst several key elements, the bill treats teens as teens when it comes to making sure AI is both safe and a tool to help contribute to their ability to learn.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic endorsed SB 813 and AB 1405 in August. In a statement, Cesar Fernandez, Anthropic’s government affairs spokesperson, praised how these bills distinguish between an AI audit, which assesses the controls necessary to comply with the law, and an evaluation, which assesses the risks posed by an AI system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson commented specifically on two of the bills, AB 1709 and SB 1119. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding AB 1709, the spokesperson defended algorithmic tailoring of content, writing that it’s “how we deliver age-appropriate content for teens that is relevant to them — all with the proper guardrails in place.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regarding SB 1119, the spokesperson wrote Meta is still evaluating the new law, but supports chatbot regulation that “empowers parents to make decisions about how their families use these tools, while making sure key educational and enrichment tools are available to teens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to YouTube, TikTok and Snap for comment. They have not yet responded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“While more work is needed to ensure AI developers are required to have safeguards evaluated by independent third-party experts, we commend Sen. McNerney and Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan for their leadership on these important issues,” Fernandez wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The signings come on the heels of social media posts from Jacob Coxon, a former Anthropic researcher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coxon resigned this week over the company’s business practices, warning that both Anthropic and its competitor OpenAI are “racing straight to self-improving super-intelligence and gambling with our lives.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bauer-Kahan was more interested in the public reaction than the warning itself, which she said covered familiar ground. Bigger statements from larger groups of researchers, she said, have come and gone without breaking through — a shift she also sees in the fights over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098559/newsoms-final-months-a-failed-deal-and-regulating-ai\">data centers\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What worries her most isn’t the doomsday scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think that the catastrophic risks are sometimes what we talk about, but the everyday impact of these systems are what I really worry about the most,” the Assembly member told KQED. “How do we make sure [Californians] continue to thrive and have meaningful work in their lives, and that these systems aren’t being used to deny them work and healthcare? That it isn’t taking our kids and isolating them and creating a mental health crisis?”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Will \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> light a fire under the U.S. economy in the coming years? That’s been a big question in the field of economics, and now Anthropic — the company behind the popular Claude AI assistant — is taking a stab at helping people find their own answers. The company has created \u003ca href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/institute/econ-scenarios\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">an interactive tool\u003c/a> that lets users test their assumptions about how productive — or disruptive — the AI boom might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In one scenario, artificial intelligence provides a gentle boost to the economy, lifting growth rates with little effect on workers. At the other extreme, GDP soars, but so does unemployment, with nearly 14% of workers losing their jobs to AI and less than half of them finding new ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The different outcomes depend on how capable and flexible the technology is, how quickly it’s adopted, whether it supports or replaces workers, and whether displaced workers find new work to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In the modest change scenario, AI is a small technology. The economy continues on a ‘normal’ path with AI making changes around the margins,” Anthropic experts write in an \u003ca href=\"https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/files/4zrzovbb/website/cf58f84d46a4a76bf5a5b039ac695fba6b80041c.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">accompanying blog post\u003c/a>. “In the extreme scenario, AI transforms the economy. The macroeconomic consequences go well beyond any event in history, both in terms of magnitudes and in terms of the speed at which change happens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Authors of the Anthropic study do not offer a prediction of which outcome is more likely. In general, they say, AI experts tend to project a more rapid spread of the technology while economists tend to be more cautious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark is somewhere in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the technology will keep developing at a very, very fast and sustained rate, but diffusion of the technology will likely be more challenging than people think,” Clark told NPR. “So it will get really, really good. But it will make its way into the economy more slowly.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI’s impact on economy is uncertain\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A survey by Anthropic of nearly 11,000 people found that the public’s expectations of AI are also mixed. The average survey respondent projects a significant boost in productivity and economic growth but also a substantial disruption to workers in AI-sensitive fields.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A major determinant of AI’s impact will be how quickly it spreads through the economy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079282\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2233287472-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Salesforce Tower is seen reflected in the windows of 500 Howard St., where AI firm Anthropic subleased Slack’s office, in downtown San Francisco, California, on Oct. 19, 2023. (Loren Elliott for The Washington Post via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the AI can do amazing things but nobody uses it, then it’s not going to have an economic impact,” says Anton Korinek, Anthropic’s head of transformative AI economic studies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While rapid adoption of the technology could be more disruptive, it could also produce much faster economic growth. In Anthropic’s extreme case, GDP grows at more than seven times its current pace. That could produce a lot of additional tax revenue to support workers who are hurt by AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you end up with this level of GDP growth, you have moves available to you as a [government] policymaker that are unimaginable today,” Clark says. “Policymakers should get ready to spend.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914652/the-challenges-and-dangers-security-guards-face\">security workers\u003c/a> who guard tech companies and other offices across San Francisco took a step toward a walkout Wednesday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Amid months of negotiations with massive contractors like Allied Universal and Securitas, members of the Service Employees International Union-United Service Workers West, the union that represents some security workers, voted to authorize a strike in response to unfair labor practices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As drums pounded and workers chanted at the Mechanic Monument Plaza in downtown San Francisco on Wednesday, David Huerta, president of SEIU-USWW, called for improved benefits and a $30 minimum wage. This is more than what the private companies are offering in negotiations, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">SEIU-USWW President David Huerta speaks at a press conference announcing that union security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) strike authorization at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District on Sept. 2, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12098180\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Jerry Longoria, who works as a security officer at Cartier on behalf of Allied Universal, wears an SEIU-USWW pin at a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District. The union representing union security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) strike authorization.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12098183\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098183\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An advocate holds a sign during a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District. Security officers represented by the union from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice strike authorization. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Who can survive with $22 an hour in San Francisco?” Huerta asked as members of the crowd shouted, “Shame.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Allied Universal declined to comment on ongoing labor negotiations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tejinder Singh, a security officer at Google and bargaining committee member, said that the union and the security giants have their last round of negotiations Wednesday, and that officers are ready to strike if the companies do not agree to their demands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A union press release states that their roughly 14,000 members asked for raises, employer-paid family health care, retirement benefits and job security, and were offered “a mere 25-cent raise over the next four years, including no raise at all in three of those years.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Singh said that he did not know how he and his colleagues would survive without a pay increase, given how much prices have skyrocketed across the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Everything has increased, gas costs, food costs, rent, medical costs … everything,” Singh said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union announcement came days after artificial intelligence giant \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097028/bay-area-security-workers-threaten-action-after-anthropic-office-closure\">Anthropic shuttered\u003c/a> the doors to its San Francisco office and told employees to work from home after its security contractor, Allied Universal, warned of a possible strike. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speaking directly to companies like Anthropic, Salesforce, Nvidia, OpenAI, Google, Cisco and others, which rely on guards, Assemblymember Matt Haney (D-San Francisco) reminded the lucrative industry how essential security workers are to keep their employees and operations safe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“None of this wealth would be possible if it wasn’t for [the guards],” Haney said. “They need to support you like you support them. They need to protect you like you protect them.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098181\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A security officer chants during a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District, where the union representing security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice strike authorization. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic and the other tech companies did not respond to KQED’s request for comment in time for publication. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Private contractors like Allied Universal and Securitas also provide guards for hospitals, transit agencies and other offices — including KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We are prepared, if necessary, to do what labor has the ultimate power to do,” Huerta said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/nvoynovskaya\">\u003cem>Nastia Voynovskaya\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A union press release states that their roughly 14,000 members asked for raises, employer-paid family health care, retirement benefits and job security, and were offered “a mere 25-cent raise over the next four years, including no raise at all in three of those years.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The union announcement came days after artificial intelligence giant \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097028/bay-area-security-workers-threaten-action-after-anthropic-office-closure\">Anthropic shuttered\u003c/a> the doors to its San Francisco office and told employees to work from home after its security contractor, Allied Universal, warned of a possible strike. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Speaking directly to companies like Anthropic, Salesforce, Nvidia, OpenAI, Google, Cisco and others, which rely on guards, Assemblymember Matt Haney (D-San Francisco) reminded the lucrative industry how essential security workers are to keep their employees and operations safe. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914652/the-challenges-and-dangers-security-guards-face\">security workers\u003c/a> who guard tech companies and other offices across San Francisco took a step toward a walkout Wednesday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Amid months of negotiations with massive contractors like Allied Universal and Securitas, members of the Service Employees International Union-United Service Workers West, the union that represents some security workers, voted to authorize a strike in response to unfair labor practices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As drums pounded and workers chanted at the Mechanic Monument Plaza in downtown San Francisco on Wednesday, David Huerta, president of SEIU-USWW, called for improved benefits and a $30 minimum wage. This is more than what the private companies are offering in negotiations, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-8_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">SEIU-USWW President David Huerta speaks at a press conference announcing that union security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) strike authorization at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District on Sept. 2, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12098180\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-2_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Jerry Longoria, who works as a security officer at Cartier on behalf of Allied Universal, wears an SEIU-USWW pin at a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District. The union representing union security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) strike authorization.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12098183\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098183\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-12_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An advocate holds a sign during a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District. Security officers represented by the union from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice strike authorization. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Who can survive with $22 an hour in San Francisco?” Huerta asked as members of the crowd shouted, “Shame.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Allied Universal declined to comment on ongoing labor negotiations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tejinder Singh, a security officer at Google and bargaining committee member, said that the union and the security giants have their last round of negotiations Wednesday, and that officers are ready to strike if the companies do not agree to their demands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A union press release states that their roughly 14,000 members asked for raises, employer-paid family health care, retirement benefits and job security, and were offered “a mere 25-cent raise over the next four years, including no raise at all in three of those years.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Singh said that he did not know how he and his colleagues would survive without a pay increase, given how much prices have skyrocketed across the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Everything has increased, gas costs, food costs, rent, medical costs … everything,” Singh said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union announcement came days after artificial intelligence giant \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097028/bay-area-security-workers-threaten-action-after-anthropic-office-closure\">Anthropic shuttered\u003c/a> the doors to its San Francisco office and told employees to work from home after its security contractor, Allied Universal, warned of a possible strike. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speaking directly to companies like Anthropic, Salesforce, Nvidia, OpenAI, Google, Cisco and others, which rely on guards, Assemblymember Matt Haney (D-San Francisco) reminded the lucrative industry how essential security workers are to keep their employees and operations safe. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“None of this wealth would be possible if it wasn’t for [the guards],” Haney said. “They need to support you like you support them. They need to protect you like you protect them.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12098181\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260902-SecurityStrike-NG-1_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A security officer chants during a Sept. 2, 2026, press conference at Mechanics Monument Plaza in San Francisco’s Financial District, where the union representing security officers from across San Francisco and Silicon Valley voted in favor of an Unfair Labor Practice strike authorization. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic and the other tech companies did not respond to KQED’s request for comment in time for publication. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Private contractors like Allied Universal and Securitas also provide guards for hospitals, transit agencies and other offices — including KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We are prepared, if necessary, to do what labor has the ultimate power to do,” Huerta said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/nvoynovskaya\">\u003cem>Nastia Voynovskaya\u003c/em>\u003c/a> \u003cem>contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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},
"pbs-newshour": {
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},
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"order": 14
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
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