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"content": "\n\u003cp>Redwood City-based Character Technologies, maker of one of the best-known AI companion chatbots, \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai/\">Character.AI\u003c/a>, has faced \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">lawsuits from families\u003c/a> who alleged its chatbots contributed to their children’s suicides and self-harm. It’s also been the target of regulators pushing for age verification tech because of its popularity with kids. Character.AI’s CEO told the court that 46 states and territories are investigating the company.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This week, the company filed for bankruptcy in Delaware. In a \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/28809489/18.pdf\">sworn declaration\u003c/a>, CEO Colin Adams cited the company’s high legal costs, struggle to become profitable, and potential investors’ concern over litigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Disney, which sent Character.AI a \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/09/30/disney-characterai-cease-desist\">cease-and-desist letter\u003c/a> last year over unauthorized use of its characters, has offered $20 million to license some of the company’s technology. That deal leaves out users’ data and chats, so any sale of the chats would be to a different buyer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens next for the roughly 12 million monthly users, including at least 2 million kids who, according to the company’s legal filings, spend about two hours a day on the platform?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">With Character Technologies, the company behind the AI chatbot app Character.ai, filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this week, what happens next as far as the data for roughly 12 million monthly users, including at least 2 million kids who spend about two hours a day on the platform? (Robert Way/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">kids’ data\u003c/a> that is in the Character AI system and is potentially for sale now,” Robbie Torney, Head of AI & Digital Assessments at Common Sense Media, told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A lot of people think of chatbots, and they think of ChatGPT, or Claude, or Gemini, which are these multi-use chatbots that can be used for all kinds of different things. Character AI is maybe one of the best-known examples of a class of AI chatbots that are designed to simulate relationships. They could pretend to be your best friend, your neighbor, a character from a video game or a book. They could pretend to be anything.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Wednesday, attorneys general from 39 states and the District of Columbia, including California, filed a notice in the case detailing nine conditions they want any buyer to meet, according to the digital advertising trade publication \u003ca href=\"https://ppc.land/character-ai-faces-40-attorneys-general-over-who-can-buy-its-users-chats/\">PPC Land\u003c/a>, which reviewed the filing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They include real age verification, removing chatbots that pose as therapists, doctors or lawyers; limits on using chats to train AI, and the chance for every user to delete their data before a sale. The states said they may ask the court to appoint a consumer privacy ombudsman, an independent official to advise the judge on the privacy consequences of a sale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our most sensitive personal information is not an asset to be bought and sold, especially during a fire sale after bankruptcy,” Electronic Frontier Foundation senior staff attorney Mario Trujillo wrote KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Torney said this particular case demonstrates the dangers of allowing a private company to hold a huge amount of sensitive, personal data. “You can export your data, and you can delete it, but that may not mean that that data is gone from model training or from models that have been derived from that data,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He pointed to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12032768/whats-next-23andme-bankruptcy-filing-raises-questions-data-security\">23andMe\u003c/a>, whose customers’ genetic data was sold in bankruptcy last year to a nonprofit led by the company’s co-founder, despite lawsuits from more than two dozen states.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Torney’s advice to \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s users: “Delete your account now and download your chats first if you want to keep them.” \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s help center said data exports can take three to four weeks, and the download link expires after seven days, so users should request the export, wait for the email, then delete. An export requested now should arrive before the sale’s Dec. 17 closing deadline. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Asked whether users’ chats are among the assets for sale, a Character.AI spokesperson referred KQED to an online \u003ca href=\"https://blog.character.ai/an-update-on-character-ai/\">FAQ\u003c/a>, which said users’ information “continues to be protected” under the company’s privacy policy and that users can delete their accounts or export their data. The company did not say whether chats are part of the sale or whether that policy would bind a buyer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Everyone clicked through and agreed to the privacy policy,” said Torney. “But I don’t know if there was, especially for teenagers, a real understanding that, down the line, in the future, the contents of these chats might become public or be sold to another company for uses that users were not originally intending.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This week, the company filed for bankruptcy in Delaware. In a \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/28809489/18.pdf\">sworn declaration\u003c/a>, CEO Colin Adams cited the company’s high legal costs, struggle to become profitable, and potential investors’ concern over litigation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Disney, which sent Character.AI a \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/09/30/disney-characterai-cease-desist\">cease-and-desist letter\u003c/a> last year over unauthorized use of its characters, has offered $20 million to license some of the company’s technology. That deal leaves out users’ data and chats, so any sale of the chats would be to a different buyer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what happens next for the roughly 12 million monthly users, including at least 2 million kids who, according to the company’s legal filings, spend about two hours a day on the platform?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">With Character Technologies, the company behind the AI chatbot app Character.ai, filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this week, what happens next as far as the data for roughly 12 million monthly users, including at least 2 million kids who spend about two hours a day on the platform?\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Robert Way/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104401\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">With Character Technologies, the company behind the AI chatbot app Character.ai, filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this week, what happens next as far as the data for roughly 12 million monthly users, including at least 2 million kids who spend about two hours a day on the platform?\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Robert Way/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">kids’ data\u003c/a> that is in the Character AI system and is potentially for sale now,” Robbie Torney, Head of AI & Digital Assessments at Common Sense Media, told KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“A lot of people think of chatbots, and they think of ChatGPT, or Claude, or Gemini, which are these multi-use chatbots that can be used for all kinds of different things. Character AI is maybe one of the best-known examples of a class of AI chatbots that are designed to simulate relationships. They could pretend to be your best friend, your neighbor, a character from a video game or a book. They could pretend to be anything.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On Wednesday, attorneys general from 39 states and the District of Columbia, including California, filed a notice in the case detailing nine conditions they want any buyer to meet, according to the digital advertising trade publication \u003ca href=\"https://ppc.land/character-ai-faces-40-attorneys-general-over-who-can-buy-its-users-chats/\">PPC Land\u003c/a>, which reviewed the filing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They include real age verification, removing chatbots that pose as therapists, doctors or lawyers; limits on using chats to train AI, and the chance for every user to delete their data before a sale. The states said they may ask the court to appoint a consumer privacy ombudsman, an independent official to advise the judge on the privacy consequences of a sale.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our most sensitive personal information is not an asset to be bought and sold, especially during a fire sale after bankruptcy,” Electronic Frontier Foundation senior staff attorney Mario Trujillo wrote KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Torney said this particular case demonstrates the dangers of allowing a private company to hold a huge amount of sensitive, personal data. “You can export your data, and you can delete it, but that may not mean that that data is gone from model training or from models that have been derived from that data,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He pointed to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12032768/whats-next-23andme-bankruptcy-filing-raises-questions-data-security\">23andMe\u003c/a>, whose customers’ genetic data was sold in bankruptcy last year to a nonprofit led by the company’s co-founder, despite lawsuits from more than two dozen states.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Torney’s advice to \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s users: “Delete your account now and download your chats first if you want to keep them.” \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s help center said data exports can take three to four weeks, and the download link expires after seven days, so users should request the export, wait for the email, then delete. An export requested now should arrive before the sale’s Dec. 17 closing deadline. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Torney’s advice to \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s users: “Delete your account now and download your chats first if you want to keep them.” \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s help center said data exports can take three to four weeks, and the download link expires after seven days, so users should request the export, wait for the email, then delete. An export requested now should arrive before the sale’s Dec. 17 closing deadline. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Asked whether users’ chats are among the assets for sale, a Character.AI spokesperson referred KQED to an online \u003ca href=\"https://blog.character.ai/an-update-on-character-ai/\">FAQ\u003c/a>, which said users’ information “continues to be protected” under the company’s privacy policy and that users can delete their accounts or export their data. The company did not say whether chats are part of the sale or whether that policy would bind a buyer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Everyone clicked through and agreed to the privacy policy,” said Torney. “But I don’t know if there was, especially for teenagers, a real understanding that, down the line, in the future, the contents of these chats might become public or be sold to another company for uses that users were not originally intending.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Character Technologies, the company behind the AI chatbot app Character.ai, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this week, raising questions about what happens to millions of users’ private conversations.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Redwood City-based Character Technologies, maker of one of the best-known AI companion chatbots, \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai/\">Character.AI\u003c/a>, has faced \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">lawsuits from families\u003c/a> who alleged its chatbots contributed to their children’s suicides and self-harm. It’s also been the target of regulators pushing for age verification tech because of its popularity with kids. Character.AI’s CEO told the court that 46 states and territories are investigating the company.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This week, the company filed for bankruptcy in Delaware. In a \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/28809489/18.pdf\">sworn declaration\u003c/a>, CEO Colin Adams cited the company’s high legal costs, struggle to become profitable, and potential investors’ concern over litigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Disney, which sent Character.AI a \u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2025/09/30/disney-characterai-cease-desist\">cease-and-desist letter\u003c/a> last year over unauthorized use of its characters, has offered $20 million to license some of the company’s technology. That deal leaves out users’ data and chats, so any sale of the chats would be to a different buyer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens next for the roughly 12 million monthly users, including at least 2 million kids who, according to the company’s legal filings, spend about two hours a day on the platform?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Character.AIGetty-1478578f-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">With Character Technologies, the company behind the AI chatbot app Character.ai, filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this week, what happens next as far as the data for roughly 12 million monthly users, including at least 2 million kids who spend about two hours a day on the platform? (Robert Way/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">kids’ data\u003c/a> that is in the Character AI system and is potentially for sale now,” Robbie Torney, Head of AI & Digital Assessments at Common Sense Media, told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A lot of people think of chatbots, and they think of ChatGPT, or Claude, or Gemini, which are these multi-use chatbots that can be used for all kinds of different things. Character AI is maybe one of the best-known examples of a class of AI chatbots that are designed to simulate relationships. They could pretend to be your best friend, your neighbor, a character from a video game or a book. They could pretend to be anything.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Wednesday, attorneys general from 39 states and the District of Columbia, including California, filed a notice in the case detailing nine conditions they want any buyer to meet, according to the digital advertising trade publication \u003ca href=\"https://ppc.land/character-ai-faces-40-attorneys-general-over-who-can-buy-its-users-chats/\">PPC Land\u003c/a>, which reviewed the filing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They include real age verification, removing chatbots that pose as therapists, doctors or lawyers; limits on using chats to train AI, and the chance for every user to delete their data before a sale. The states said they may ask the court to appoint a consumer privacy ombudsman, an independent official to advise the judge on the privacy consequences of a sale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our most sensitive personal information is not an asset to be bought and sold, especially during a fire sale after bankruptcy,” Electronic Frontier Foundation senior staff attorney Mario Trujillo wrote KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Torney said this particular case demonstrates the dangers of allowing a private company to hold a huge amount of sensitive, personal data. “You can export your data, and you can delete it, but that may not mean that that data is gone from model training or from models that have been derived from that data,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He pointed to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12032768/whats-next-23andme-bankruptcy-filing-raises-questions-data-security\">23andMe\u003c/a>, whose customers’ genetic data was sold in bankruptcy last year to a nonprofit led by the company’s co-founder, despite lawsuits from more than two dozen states.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Torney’s advice to \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s users: “Delete your account now and download your chats first if you want to keep them.” \u003ca href=\"http://character.ai\">Character.AI\u003c/a>’s help center said data exports can take three to four weeks, and the download link expires after seven days, so users should request the export, wait for the email, then delete. An export requested now should arrive before the sale’s Dec. 17 closing deadline. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Asked whether users’ chats are among the assets for sale, a Character.AI spokesperson referred KQED to an online \u003ca href=\"https://blog.character.ai/an-update-on-character-ai/\">FAQ\u003c/a>, which said users’ information “continues to be protected” under the company’s privacy policy and that users can delete their accounts or export their data. The company did not say whether chats are part of the sale or whether that policy would bind a buyer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Everyone clicked through and agreed to the privacy policy,” said Torney. “But I don’t know if there was, especially for teenagers, a real understanding that, down the line, in the future, the contents of these chats might become public or be sold to another company for uses that users were not originally intending.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Your phone might get a loud \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/earthquake\">earthquake\u003c/a> test alert on Thursday morning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At least, it will if you’re one of over 4.5 million Californians who have the \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/06/24/californias-earthquake-warning-system-notified-over-one-million-people-ahead-of-northern-california-quake/\">MyShake earthquake warning app downloaded\u003c/a> on your phone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The MyShake test alert for app users will be part of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakeout.org/\">Annual Great ShakeOut\u003c/a> quake preparedness drill that takes place across the globe. And the purpose of this particular test alert is to bring home the importance of a warning even a few seconds before an earthquake strikes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>MyShake was developed in the Bay Area at \u003ca href=\"https://earthquakes.berkeley.edu/\">UC Berkeley’s Seismology Lab\u003c/a> and is funded by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.caloes.ca.gov/\">California Governor’s Office of Emergency Services (Cal OES)\u003c/a>. It’s powered by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakealert.org/media-kit/\">U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) ShakeAlert system\u003c/a>, which uses a network of seismic sensors to detect earthquakes in real time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Once an event is detected, and if the quake is \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#troubleshooting\">estimated to be magnitude 4.5 or greater\u003c/a>, MyShake will send an alert to phones in the affected area, giving them anywhere from a few seconds to half a minute to react and instructing users to take life-saving actions — “drop, cover and hold on” — before the ground starts moving.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jump to: \u003ca href=\"#drop-cover\">Why experts say ‘drop, cover and hold on’ is more likely to save your life than standing in a door frame\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what you need to know about this latest test alert on Thursday and what you should actually do in the event of an earthquake warning — plus more ways to get these earthquake warnings for real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">When will the MyShake earthquake test alert happen?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Thursday morning, this phone alert will only be received by people with the MyShake app who live in California, Oregon and Washington.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1977213/heres-where-to-download-californias-earthquake-early-warning-app\">MyShake app\u003c/a> will send the test alert to Bay Area users at 10:14 a.m. Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1261\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12059706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP-160x105.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP-1536x1009.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">If you’re one of the over 4 million Californians who have the MyShake earthquake warning app downloaded, you might get a loud alert on Thursday morning. This test will be part of the Annual Great ShakeOut quake preparedness drill, taking place across the globe. (Courtesy of Suresh Raman)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People in the greater Los Angeles area who have MyShake downloaded to their phone will get their alert at 10:15 a.m. The rest of the state — plus Washington and Oregon — will receive the alert at 10:16 a.m.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What will the MyShake alert sound like?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#shakeout2\">MyShake test alert\u003c/a> audio will say “Earthquake drill. Earthquake drill. When you hear this message, practice: Drop, cover and hold on. Practice: Drop, cover and hold on.” It’ll be accompanied by a visual alert signifying that this is a test drill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout2026-q3\">preview how the alert will sound \u003c/a>on the MyShake website.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"drop-cover\">What does ‘Drop, cover and hold on’ really mean in practice?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First, you “drop” to the ground, on the spot — because it’s unlikely you’ll even be able to \u003cem>stay \u003c/em>standing during the shaking from a real earthquake, said Jose Lara, branch chief for seismic hazards with the California governor’s office of emergency services. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This kind of shaking and rolling “truly does rock people’s world, and not in a good way,” he said. \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Some of the larger earthquakes could go on for minutes, depending on the magnitude. And so after a while, you’re going to find yourself on the ground one way or another.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many injuries during an earthquake happen due to people falling, Lara said — so resist the urge to run.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> “You cannot run through this. You don’t want to. Not in California,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, you “cover” your head — because many other injuries happen when objects fall \u003cem>onto \u003c/em>you, he said. As you do that, “hold on” to anything sturdy: for example, a table. “We know from years of research that this is the safest thing that you can do during strong shaking,” Lara said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What about guidance you may have heard in the past to stand in a door frame? That advice is actually outdated now, explained Lara, because it “has a lot to do with some of the former building codes and other material that was used to build houses and buildings.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But we know now, with all the research, that the most important thing that you can do during strong shaking is to drop, cover and hold on on the spot,” Lara said. “Building codes in California are really much more advanced, and we know that buildings and homes will survive an earthquake — and so you will be able to walk out of there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">I want this MyShake alert — how can I make sure I get it?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an iPhone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://apps.apple.com/us/app/myshake/id1467058529\">download the MyShake app from the Apple App Store\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an Android phone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=edu.berkeley.bsl.myshake&pli=1\">download MyShake from the Google Play Store\u003c/a> — but Android phones will also get these alerts automatically through the Android operating system (more on this below).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">I have the app, but what if I don’t get the test alert?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have the MyShake app and you still don’t get the alert on your phone on Thursday, don’t worry: It might be due to a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your alerts and notifications might be disabled for the MyShake app, or MyShake may not have permission to run in your phone’s background. Since the alert will be sent to phones in California, Oregon and Washington, the app will rely on your location data in order to send you the test alert.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1088\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095098\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-1536x836.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 3.8 magnitude earthquake struck about 2.5 miles north of San Leandro in August 2026, according to data from the U.S. Geological Survey. (Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This means that if you have your location services turned off, you might not be able to receive the alert. You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/\">contact MyShake suppor\u003c/a>t if you think you’ve encountered a problem with the app.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(If you did install MyShake in the past on your iPhone but you still don’t receive the alert, check that you don’t have the “Offload Unused Apps” feature turned on. This feature could have automatically uninstalled MyShake to save storage space if you haven’t used it in a while.)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If my phone is off or on airplane mode, will I receive the alert?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just like a normal alert, MyShake is unable to send test alerts to phones that are off or in airplane mode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For people who have the MyShake app and prefer not to receive the alerts on Thursday morning, \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout\">MyShake advises people to turn off notifications on their phones\u003c/a> from 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. on that day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>For iOS, go to Phone Settings then Notifications, find “MyShake” and turn off “Allow Notifications and Critical Alerts”.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>For Android, go to Phone Settings then Notifications, find “MyShake” under “App notifications,” then turn MyShake off. \u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Don’t forget to turn your MyShake notifications back on after the drill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#science\">Find more frequently asked questions about MyShake here.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What are other ways than MyShake to get an alert if a real earthquake hits?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The ShakeAlert Earthquake Early Warning System (EEW) from USGS and the Federal Emergency Management Agency sends \u003ca href=\"https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-sign-shakealertr-earthquake-early-warning-system\">earthquake alerts to people’s phones in multiple ways.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most widespread way is through Wireless Emergency Alerts (WEA), which sends loud alerts to all cellphones. If an earthquake is expected to be magnitude 5 or greater, \u003ca href=\"https://earthquake.ca.gov/wireless-emergency-alerts/#:~:text=WEA%20alerts%20will%20be%20sent,5.0%20with%20shaking%20intensity%204.\">USGS and FEMA will send a WEA to all capable devices.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11999988\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The nation’s first statewide Earthquake Early Warning System, also known as the MyShake app, developed by professor Richard Allen, director of the UC Berkeley Seismological Laboratory, is displayed in Oakland, California, on Oct. 17, 2019. (Yichuan Cao/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>ShakeAlert also powers other systems like MyShake alerts and \u003ca href=\"https://www.readysandiego.org/SDEmergencyApp/\">the ShakeReadySD app for San Diego residents.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since 2020, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1968352/android-phones-will-now-automatically-receive-california-earthquake-warnings\">Android phones have also been capable of receiving earthquake early warning alerts\u003c/a> through Google’s Android operating system — though users should still check their settings to make sure that earthquake alerts are enabled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>MyShake differs from other alert delivery tools in that it collects user experience reports for earthquakes greater than magnitude 3.5 and uses motion data captured by phones for research purposes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/dventon\">Danielle Venton\u003c/a> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The MyShake test alert for app users will be part of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakeout.org/\">Annual Great ShakeOut\u003c/a> quake preparedness drill that takes place across the globe. And the purpose of this particular test alert is to bring home the importance of a warning even a few seconds before an earthquake strikes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The MyShake test alert for app users will be part of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakeout.org/\">Annual Great ShakeOut\u003c/a> quake preparedness drill that takes place across the globe. And the purpose of this particular test alert is to bring home the importance of a warning even a few seconds before an earthquake strikes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>MyShake was developed in the Bay Area at \u003ca href=\"https://earthquakes.berkeley.edu/\">UC Berkeley’s Seismology Lab\u003c/a> and is funded by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.caloes.ca.gov/\">California Governor’s Office of Emergency Services (Cal OES)\u003c/a>. It’s powered by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakealert.org/media-kit/\">U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) ShakeAlert system\u003c/a>, which uses a network of seismic sensors to detect earthquakes in real time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>MyShake was developed in the Bay Area at \u003ca href=\"https://earthquakes.berkeley.edu/\">UC Berkeley’s Seismology Lab\u003c/a> and is funded by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.caloes.ca.gov/\">California Governor’s Office of Emergency Services (Cal OES)\u003c/a>. It’s powered by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakealert.org/media-kit/\">U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) ShakeAlert system\u003c/a>, which uses a network of seismic sensors to detect earthquakes in real time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Once an event is detected, and if the quake is \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#troubleshooting\">estimated to be magnitude 4.5 or greater\u003c/a>, MyShake will send an alert to phones in the affected area, giving them anywhere from a few seconds to half a minute to react and instructing users to take life-saving actions — “drop, cover and hold on” — before the ground starts moving.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Once an event is detected, and if the quake is \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#troubleshooting\">estimated to be magnitude 4.5 or greater\u003c/a>, MyShake will send an alert to phones in the affected area, giving them anywhere from a few seconds to half a minute to react and instructing users to take life-saving actions — “drop, cover and hold on” — before the ground starts moving.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s what you need to know about this latest test alert on Thursday and what you should actually do in the event of an earthquake warning — plus more ways to get these earthquake warnings for real.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On Thursday morning, this phone alert will only be received by people with the MyShake app who live in California, Oregon and Washington.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1977213/heres-where-to-download-californias-earthquake-early-warning-app\">MyShake app\u003c/a> will send the test alert to Bay Area users at 10:14 a.m. Thursday.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1977213/heres-where-to-download-californias-earthquake-early-warning-app\">MyShake app\u003c/a> will send the test alert to Bay Area users at 10:14 a.m. Thursday.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12059706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP-160x105.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP-1536x1009.png 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">If you’re one of the over 4 million Californians who have the MyShake earthquake warning app downloaded, you might get a loud alert on Thursday morning. This test will be part of the Annual Great ShakeOut quake preparedness drill, taking place across the globe.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of Suresh Raman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12059706\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">If you’re one of the over 4 million Californians who have the MyShake earthquake warning app downloaded, you might get a loud alert on Thursday morning. This test will be part of the Annual Great ShakeOut quake preparedness drill, taking place across the globe.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of Suresh Raman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>People in the greater Los Angeles area who have MyShake downloaded to their phone will get their alert at 10:15 a.m. The rest of the state — plus Washington and Oregon — will receive the alert at 10:16 a.m.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#shakeout2\">MyShake test alert\u003c/a> audio will say “Earthquake drill. Earthquake drill. When you hear this message, practice: Drop, cover and hold on. Practice: Drop, cover and hold on.” It’ll be accompanied by a visual alert signifying that this is a test drill.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#shakeout2\">MyShake test alert\u003c/a> audio will say “Earthquake drill. Earthquake drill. When you hear this message, practice: Drop, cover and hold on. Practice: Drop, cover and hold on.” It’ll be accompanied by a visual alert signifying that this is a test drill.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout2026-q3\">preview how the alert will sound \u003c/a>on the MyShake website.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout2026-q3\">preview how the alert will sound \u003c/a>on the MyShake website.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "What does ‘Drop, cover and hold on’ really mean in practice?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>First, you “drop” to the ground, on the spot — because it’s unlikely you’ll even be able to \u003cem>stay \u003c/em>standing during the shaking from a real earthquake, said Jose Lara, branch chief for seismic hazards with the California governor’s office of emergency services. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>First, you “drop” to the ground, on the spot — because it’s unlikely you’ll even be able to \u003cem>stay \u003c/em>standing during the shaking from a real earthquake, said Jose Lara, branch chief for seismic hazards with the California governor’s office of emergency services. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This kind of shaking and rolling “truly does rock people’s world, and not in a good way,” he said. \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Some of the larger earthquakes could go on for minutes, depending on the magnitude. And so after a while, you’re going to find yourself on the ground one way or another.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This kind of shaking and rolling “truly does rock people’s world, and not in a good way,” he said. \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Some of the larger earthquakes could go on for minutes, depending on the magnitude. And so after a while, you’re going to find yourself on the ground one way or another.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many injuries during an earthquake happen due to people falling, Lara said — so resist the urge to run.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Many injuries during an earthquake happen due to people falling, Lara said — so resist the urge to run.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp> “You cannot run through this. You don’t want to. Not in California,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp> “You cannot run through this. You don’t want to. Not in California,” he said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, you “cover” your head — because many other injuries happen when objects fall \u003cem>onto \u003c/em>you, he said. As you do that, “hold on” to anything sturdy: for example, a table. “We know from years of research that this is the safest thing that you can do during strong shaking,” Lara said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, you “cover” your head — because many other injuries happen when objects fall \u003cem>onto \u003c/em>you, he said. As you do that, “hold on” to anything sturdy: for example, a table. “We know from years of research that this is the safest thing that you can do during strong shaking,” Lara said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What about guidance you may have heard in the past to stand in a door frame? That advice is actually outdated now, explained Lara, because it “has a lot to do with some of the former building codes and other material that was used to build houses and buildings.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What about guidance you may have heard in the past to stand in a door frame? That advice is actually outdated now, explained Lara, because it “has a lot to do with some of the former building codes and other material that was used to build houses and buildings.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“But we know now, with all the research, that the most important thing that you can do during strong shaking is to drop, cover and hold on on the spot,” Lara said. “Building codes in California are really much more advanced, and we know that buildings and homes will survive an earthquake — and so you will be able to walk out of there.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“But we know now, with all the research, that the most important thing that you can do during strong shaking is to drop, cover and hold on on the spot,” Lara said. “Building codes in California are really much more advanced, and we know that buildings and homes will survive an earthquake — and so you will be able to walk out of there.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "I want this MyShake alert — how can I make sure I get it?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">I want this MyShake alert — how can I make sure I get it?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you have an iPhone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://apps.apple.com/us/app/myshake/id1467058529\">download the MyShake app from the Apple App Store\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you have an iPhone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://apps.apple.com/us/app/myshake/id1467058529\">download the MyShake app from the Apple App Store\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you have an Android phone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=edu.berkeley.bsl.myshake&pli=1\">download MyShake from the Google Play Store\u003c/a> — but Android phones will also get these alerts automatically through the Android operating system (more on this below).\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you have an Android phone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=edu.berkeley.bsl.myshake&pli=1\">download MyShake from the Google Play Store\u003c/a> — but Android phones will also get these alerts automatically through the Android operating system (more on this below).\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "I have the app, but what if I don’t get the test alert?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">I have the app, but what if I don’t get the test alert?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you have the MyShake app and you still don’t get the alert on your phone on Thursday, don’t worry: It might be due to a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you have the MyShake app and you still don’t get the alert on your phone on Thursday, don’t worry: It might be due to a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Your alerts and notifications might be disabled for the MyShake app, or MyShake may not have permission to run in your phone’s background. Since the alert will be sent to phones in California, Oregon and Washington, the app will rely on your location data in order to send you the test alert.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Your alerts and notifications might be disabled for the MyShake app, or MyShake may not have permission to run in your phone’s background. Since the alert will be sent to phones in California, Oregon and Washington, the app will rely on your location data in order to send you the test alert.\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-1536x836.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095098\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-1536x836.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 3.8 magnitude earthquake struck about 2.5 miles north of San Leandro in August 2026, according to data from the U.S. Geological Survey.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095098\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 3.8 magnitude earthquake struck about 2.5 miles north of San Leandro in August 2026, according to data from the U.S. Geological Survey.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This means that if you have your location services turned off, you might not be able to receive the alert. You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/\">contact MyShake suppor\u003c/a>t if you think you’ve encountered a problem with the app.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This means that if you have your location services turned off, you might not be able to receive the alert. You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/\">contact MyShake suppor\u003c/a>t if you think you’ve encountered a problem with the app.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>(If you did install MyShake in the past on your iPhone but you still don’t receive the alert, check that you don’t have the “Offload Unused Apps” feature turned on. This feature could have automatically uninstalled MyShake to save storage space if you haven’t used it in a while.)\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>(If you did install MyShake in the past on your iPhone but you still don’t receive the alert, check that you don’t have the “Offload Unused Apps” feature turned on. This feature could have automatically uninstalled MyShake to save storage space if you haven’t used it in a while.)\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "If my phone is off or on airplane mode, will I receive the alert?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If my phone is off or on airplane mode, will I receive the alert?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just like a normal alert, MyShake is unable to send test alerts to phones that are off or in airplane mode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just like a normal alert, MyShake is unable to send test alerts to phones that are off or in airplane mode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For people who have the MyShake app and prefer not to receive the alerts on Thursday morning, \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout\">MyShake advises people to turn off notifications on their phones\u003c/a> from 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. on that day. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For people who have the MyShake app and prefer not to receive the alerts on Thursday morning, \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout\">MyShake advises people to turn off notifications on their phones\u003c/a> from 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. on that day. \u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cli>For iOS, go to Phone Settings then Notifications, find “MyShake” and turn off “Allow Notifications and Critical Alerts”.\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>For Android, go to Phone Settings then Notifications, find “MyShake” under “App notifications,” then turn MyShake off. \u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>For Android, go to Phone Settings then Notifications, find “MyShake” under “App notifications,” then turn MyShake off. \u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Don’t forget to turn your MyShake notifications back on after the drill.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Don’t forget to turn your MyShake notifications back on after the drill.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#science\">Find more frequently asked questions about MyShake here.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#science\">Find more frequently asked questions about MyShake here.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "What are other ways than MyShake to get an alert if a real earthquake hits?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The ShakeAlert Earthquake Early Warning System (EEW) from USGS and the Federal Emergency Management Agency sends \u003ca href=\"https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-sign-shakealertr-earthquake-early-warning-system\">earthquake alerts to people’s phones in multiple ways.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The ShakeAlert Earthquake Early Warning System (EEW) from USGS and the Federal Emergency Management Agency sends \u003ca href=\"https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-sign-shakealertr-earthquake-early-warning-system\">earthquake alerts to people’s phones in multiple ways.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The most widespread way is through Wireless Emergency Alerts (WEA), which sends loud alerts to all cellphones. If an earthquake is expected to be magnitude 5 or greater, \u003ca href=\"https://earthquake.ca.gov/wireless-emergency-alerts/#:~:text=WEA%20alerts%20will%20be%20sent,5.0%20with%20shaking%20intensity%204.\">USGS and FEMA will send a WEA to all capable devices.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The most widespread way is through Wireless Emergency Alerts (WEA), which sends loud alerts to all cellphones. If an earthquake is expected to be magnitude 5 or greater, \u003ca href=\"https://earthquake.ca.gov/wireless-emergency-alerts/#:~:text=WEA%20alerts%20will%20be%20sent,5.0%20with%20shaking%20intensity%204.\">USGS and FEMA will send a WEA to all capable devices.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11999988\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The nation’s first statewide Earthquake Early Warning System, also known as the MyShake app, developed by professor Richard Allen, director of the UC Berkeley Seismological Laboratory, is displayed in Oakland, California, on Oct. 17, 2019.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Yichuan Cao/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11999988\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The nation’s first statewide Earthquake Early Warning System, also known as the MyShake app, developed by professor Richard Allen, director of the UC Berkeley Seismological Laboratory, is displayed in Oakland, California, on Oct. 17, 2019.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Yichuan Cao/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>ShakeAlert also powers other systems like MyShake alerts and \u003ca href=\"https://www.readysandiego.org/SDEmergencyApp/\">the ShakeReadySD app for San Diego residents.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>ShakeAlert also powers other systems like MyShake alerts and \u003ca href=\"https://www.readysandiego.org/SDEmergencyApp/\">the ShakeReadySD app for San Diego residents.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since 2020, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1968352/android-phones-will-now-automatically-receive-california-earthquake-warnings\">Android phones have also been capable of receiving earthquake early warning alerts\u003c/a> through Google’s Android operating system — though users should still check their settings to make sure that earthquake alerts are enabled.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since 2020, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1968352/android-phones-will-now-automatically-receive-california-earthquake-warnings\">Android phones have also been capable of receiving earthquake early warning alerts\u003c/a> through Google’s Android operating system — though users should still check their settings to make sure that earthquake alerts are enabled.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>MyShake differs from other alert delivery tools in that it collects user experience reports for earthquakes greater than magnitude 3.5 and uses motion data captured by phones for research purposes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>MyShake differs from other alert delivery tools in that it collects user experience reports for earthquakes greater than magnitude 3.5 and uses motion data captured by phones for research purposes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/dventon\">Danielle Venton\u003c/a> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/dventon\">Danielle Venton\u003c/a> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Find out how California’s MyShake earthquake app works, what to expect from emergency test alerts and how to set up your phone for more early earthquake warnings.",
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"title": "Why Your Phone Might Get an Earthquake Test Alert Thursday (and What to Do) | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Your phone might get a loud \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/earthquake\">earthquake\u003c/a> test alert on Thursday morning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At least, it will if you’re one of over 4.5 million Californians who have the \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/06/24/californias-earthquake-warning-system-notified-over-one-million-people-ahead-of-northern-california-quake/\">MyShake earthquake warning app downloaded\u003c/a> on your phone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The MyShake test alert for app users will be part of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakeout.org/\">Annual Great ShakeOut\u003c/a> quake preparedness drill that takes place across the globe. And the purpose of this particular test alert is to bring home the importance of a warning even a few seconds before an earthquake strikes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>MyShake was developed in the Bay Area at \u003ca href=\"https://earthquakes.berkeley.edu/\">UC Berkeley’s Seismology Lab\u003c/a> and is funded by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.caloes.ca.gov/\">California Governor’s Office of Emergency Services (Cal OES)\u003c/a>. It’s powered by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.shakealert.org/media-kit/\">U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) ShakeAlert system\u003c/a>, which uses a network of seismic sensors to detect earthquakes in real time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Once an event is detected, and if the quake is \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#troubleshooting\">estimated to be magnitude 4.5 or greater\u003c/a>, MyShake will send an alert to phones in the affected area, giving them anywhere from a few seconds to half a minute to react and instructing users to take life-saving actions — “drop, cover and hold on” — before the ground starts moving.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jump to: \u003ca href=\"#drop-cover\">Why experts say ‘drop, cover and hold on’ is more likely to save your life than standing in a door frame\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what you need to know about this latest test alert on Thursday and what you should actually do in the event of an earthquake warning — plus more ways to get these earthquake warnings for real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">When will the MyShake earthquake test alert happen?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Thursday morning, this phone alert will only be received by people with the MyShake app who live in California, Oregon and Washington.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1977213/heres-where-to-download-californias-earthquake-early-warning-app\">MyShake app\u003c/a> will send the test alert to Bay Area users at 10:14 a.m. Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1261\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12059706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP-160x105.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/MyShake_WP-1536x1009.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">If you’re one of the over 4 million Californians who have the MyShake earthquake warning app downloaded, you might get a loud alert on Thursday morning. This test will be part of the Annual Great ShakeOut quake preparedness drill, taking place across the globe. (Courtesy of Suresh Raman)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People in the greater Los Angeles area who have MyShake downloaded to their phone will get their alert at 10:15 a.m. The rest of the state — plus Washington and Oregon — will receive the alert at 10:16 a.m.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What will the MyShake alert sound like?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#shakeout2\">MyShake test alert\u003c/a> audio will say “Earthquake drill. Earthquake drill. When you hear this message, practice: Drop, cover and hold on. Practice: Drop, cover and hold on.” It’ll be accompanied by a visual alert signifying that this is a test drill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout2026-q3\">preview how the alert will sound \u003c/a>on the MyShake website.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"drop-cover\">What does ‘Drop, cover and hold on’ really mean in practice?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First, you “drop” to the ground, on the spot — because it’s unlikely you’ll even be able to \u003cem>stay \u003c/em>standing during the shaking from a real earthquake, said Jose Lara, branch chief for seismic hazards with the California governor’s office of emergency services. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This kind of shaking and rolling “truly does rock people’s world, and not in a good way,” he said. \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Some of the larger earthquakes could go on for minutes, depending on the magnitude. And so after a while, you’re going to find yourself on the ground one way or another.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many injuries during an earthquake happen due to people falling, Lara said — so resist the urge to run.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> “You cannot run through this. You don’t want to. Not in California,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, you “cover” your head — because many other injuries happen when objects fall \u003cem>onto \u003c/em>you, he said. As you do that, “hold on” to anything sturdy: for example, a table. “We know from years of research that this is the safest thing that you can do during strong shaking,” Lara said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What about guidance you may have heard in the past to stand in a door frame? That advice is actually outdated now, explained Lara, because it “has a lot to do with some of the former building codes and other material that was used to build houses and buildings.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But we know now, with all the research, that the most important thing that you can do during strong shaking is to drop, cover and hold on on the spot,” Lara said. “Building codes in California are really much more advanced, and we know that buildings and homes will survive an earthquake — and so you will be able to walk out of there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">I want this MyShake alert — how can I make sure I get it?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an iPhone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://apps.apple.com/us/app/myshake/id1467058529\">download the MyShake app from the Apple App Store\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have an Android phone, you can \u003ca href=\"https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=edu.berkeley.bsl.myshake&pli=1\">download MyShake from the Google Play Store\u003c/a> — but Android phones will also get these alerts automatically through the Android operating system (more on this below).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">I have the app, but what if I don’t get the test alert?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you have the MyShake app and you still don’t get the alert on your phone on Thursday, don’t worry: It might be due to a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your alerts and notifications might be disabled for the MyShake app, or MyShake may not have permission to run in your phone’s background. Since the alert will be sent to phones in California, Oregon and Washington, the app will rely on your location data in order to send you the test alert.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1088\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12095098\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260813-Earthquake-01-1536x836.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 3.8 magnitude earthquake struck about 2.5 miles north of San Leandro in August 2026, according to data from the U.S. Geological Survey. (Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This means that if you have your location services turned off, you might not be able to receive the alert. You can \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/\">contact MyShake suppor\u003c/a>t if you think you’ve encountered a problem with the app.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>(If you did install MyShake in the past on your iPhone but you still don’t receive the alert, check that you don’t have the “Offload Unused Apps” feature turned on. This feature could have automatically uninstalled MyShake to save storage space if you haven’t used it in a while.)\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">If my phone is off or on airplane mode, will I receive the alert?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just like a normal alert, MyShake is unable to send test alerts to phones that are off or in airplane mode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For people who have the MyShake app and prefer not to receive the alerts on Thursday morning, \u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/faq.html#shakeout\">MyShake advises people to turn off notifications on their phones\u003c/a> from 10:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. on that day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>For iOS, go to Phone Settings then Notifications, find “MyShake” and turn off “Allow Notifications and Critical Alerts”.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>For Android, go to Phone Settings then Notifications, find “MyShake” under “App notifications,” then turn MyShake off. \u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Don’t forget to turn your MyShake notifications back on after the drill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://myshake.berkeley.edu/FAQ_en.html#science\">Find more frequently asked questions about MyShake here.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What are other ways than MyShake to get an alert if a real earthquake hits?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The ShakeAlert Earthquake Early Warning System (EEW) from USGS and the Federal Emergency Management Agency sends \u003ca href=\"https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-sign-shakealertr-earthquake-early-warning-system\">earthquake alerts to people’s phones in multiple ways.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most widespread way is through Wireless Emergency Alerts (WEA), which sends loud alerts to all cellphones. If an earthquake is expected to be magnitude 5 or greater, \u003ca href=\"https://earthquake.ca.gov/wireless-emergency-alerts/#:~:text=WEA%20alerts%20will%20be%20sent,5.0%20with%20shaking%20intensity%204.\">USGS and FEMA will send a WEA to all capable devices.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11999988\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/MyShakeUCBerkeley-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The nation’s first statewide Earthquake Early Warning System, also known as the MyShake app, developed by professor Richard Allen, director of the UC Berkeley Seismological Laboratory, is displayed in Oakland, California, on Oct. 17, 2019. (Yichuan Cao/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>ShakeAlert also powers other systems like MyShake alerts and \u003ca href=\"https://www.readysandiego.org/SDEmergencyApp/\">the ShakeReadySD app for San Diego residents.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since 2020, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1968352/android-phones-will-now-automatically-receive-california-earthquake-warnings\">Android phones have also been capable of receiving earthquake early warning alerts\u003c/a> through Google’s Android operating system — though users should still check their settings to make sure that earthquake alerts are enabled.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>MyShake differs from other alert delivery tools in that it collects user experience reports for earthquakes greater than magnitude 3.5 and uses motion data captured by phones for research purposes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/dventon\">Danielle Venton\u003c/a> contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Modern technology has generally made our lives faster, easier, and more convenient. But in swapping out stick shifts and paper menus for automatic transmissions and QR codes, have we accidentally optimized away many of the rich sensory experiences that make living so pleasurable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Journalist, academic and award-winning video-game designer Ian Bogost joins host Jess Love to discuss insights from his book \u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life\u003c/a>. He makes the case that we’re losing some of the everyday pleasures of interacting with the world. But if technology has disconnected us from sensory gratification, can it also be part of the solution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading and Viewing\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life \u003c/a>– Ian Bogost, Atria Books\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2oV2DQ2dEA\">Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome\u003c/a> – Game/Show, PBS Digital Studios\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines Every spring and fall during migration season, I head to Montrose Point Bird Sanctuary here in Chicago. It’s this gorgeous strip of dunes and hedges and grasses hugging the side of Lake Michigan, a waypoint for hundreds of species of birds, and it’s hugely popular with birders, a lot of whom I’ve noticed walk through the sanctuary with their phones out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They are almost certainly doing something related to birding, using popular apps like Merlin or eBird to ID bird calls or add to their own life lists. Or maybe they’re just taking pictures. I am aware of these possibilities because I, too, have downloaded these apps. I, too, am trying to take pictures. So here we all are on a beautiful, crisp morning with all of Lake Michigan on offer, and we’re staring at our phones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m honestly not sure what to make of that. On the one hand, it’s birding. Whatever gets you out there, right? But on the other, what are we missing by letting technology mediate so much of this experience? I actually have this thought a lot because it’s not just birding. So much of modern life is mediated and warped by technology in ways we don’t always see because we’re just too close to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I knew I wanted to talk about this with Ian Bogost. Ian recently wrote a book called “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” The book argues that we’re losing a lot of these sensory experiences that used to fill our everyday lives. As in the places we build, the objects we design, the technology we use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over time, in the name of convenience and efficiency, we’ve stripped them of a lot of texture, sights, sounds, physical sensations, all things that actually bring us a lot of joy. But here’s the thing. In addition to being a media scholar at Washington University in St. Louis and a journalist at The Atlantic, Ian is also a video game designer, hardly a Luddite. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So have we traded some of the simple sensory pleasures of just being in the world for more streamlined bird identification, or is there more to it than that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a project of Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love and this is my conversation with Ian Bogost. I began by asking Ian if he could identify a moment when he first realized we’d lost some of the sensory pleasures of actually interacting with the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> The big one, the one that’s easy to identify, is the one that I talk about in the book when I wrote this kinda monster story for The Atlantic about the stick shift, the end of the stick shift. It was a monster story in the sense that a lot of people read it, not that I thought it was gonna be important. I thought it was just a little thing, you know? And the reactions from that, just the volume of them, and the passion of people lamenting and remembering their experience controlling a machine in that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Ian was struck by the magnitude and variety of these responses. People really missed the stick shift, and it went beyond simple nostalgia. They missed these sensory moments, like the jerkiness of it all, seeing and feeling the gearshift move. Today’s automatic transmissions are more energy efficient than stick shifts ever were. They’re easier to learn. There’s no worrying about your clutch. Logically, there’s not really much to miss, and yet a lot of people still miss it and all the experiences that came along with it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “Oh, okay. I see.” It’s like a family of experiences, and those… It’s not just one thing. It’s not just, like, being a gearhead or, like, wanting to control your vehicle. It’s rather that we’re surrounded by all of this stuff that seems like it’s just noise and that it’s something to get through to get to the big stuff, the good stuff. But no, those experiences matter, and they matter as first-order parts of our day-to-day lives, but then also our lives as a whole. And so it was that… That realization was confusing to me ’cause I didn’t feel like there was a name for it. I mean, I ended up naming it ‘gratification’ or borrowing the word gratification to name it. This thing that describes, like, what I call the sensory enchantment of everyday life. But I had this realization that we had all kind of agreed without agreeing that that stuff was not important, and so discovering that it was important and that it wasn’t just important to me but to everyone, that was really magical and enlightening and, kind of life-changing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Gratification. That’s the term Ian gives to the magical, enlightening, and kind of life-changing sensory stuff that we encounter all day long, or at least that we used to encounter all day long but increasingly maybe aren’t getting quite as much of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So think about anything you do in your daily life. I mean, you have to go shopping for groceries. And, you know, in the past you’d have to make a list, and maybe you’d write that down on paper, on a piece of scratch paper with a pen that you particularly liked using, and then you’d put it in your pocket, and you’d sort of fold it up, and it would have a certain feel of the paper as it tore off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And maybe the paper made a sound as you tore it. And then you’d get in your car, which maybe had a stick shift and maybe didn’t, but even if it didn’t, you’d turn the key in the ignition, and you’d press your foot down on the pedal, and you’d turn the knob on the radio physically as you drove to the store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you’d get the cart, and the cart wobbled a little bit, but you felt it underneath you and against the cold floor, beneath your feet, and then you’d touch the produce to figure out which ones met your desired level of ripeness and all the rest of it. And, you know, you can kind of fill in all those blanks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s like we automatically got this rich and diverse sensory experience just by doing things that we had to do every day. And we may not have thought of those things as desirable, like, “Ugh, I gotta go do the grocery shopping,” but since you had to go do it, you couldn’t just Instacart your way out of that problem, all this other stuff kind of came along for the ride.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what we lost in part wasn’t just all of those sensory encounters I just mentioned, but the very idea that they were being delivered to us continuously, so much so that we almost didn’t notice them happening. And there’s so many other examples of this, right? Like the feel of an old school Western Electric style telephone handset, the heft of it, the kind of intimacy of your voice in your own ear and against your mouth, the ability to smash it down on the hook to hang it up, the sound of the ring, the quality of the sound along the copper line, the feeling of dialing the rotary mechanism or pressing the touch tone buttons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like that was just what making a phone call was, you know? And now it’s like, well, I’ve got this phone and the… and this has an app for a phone app on it, and it doesn’t really work well, but, like, that’s… But I, and I hate making phone calls anyway. It’s like, well, maybe what you hate is the experience that phone calls evolved into and the fact that they were so sensorily bereft that you didn’t even wanna pursue them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then it’s like a digital line, and it’s always dropping, and you can’t hear someone anyway and all, and all the rest of it. So, I found that people love identifying and talking about these, these feelings of sensory life that they remember but have lost. And the big thing, the big collective thing is they just happened automatically. They just happened to you. They were a part of the texture and the background noise of daily life, and then they weren’t. anymore. Like during the pandemic when all of us stopped going places, and we worked from home, and we ordered delivery all the time, and, QR codes for menus became a thing. And now you go to a restaurant, and you still have a QR code maybe for a menu, and you feel in your head and in your heart and in your fingertips, you’re like, “I want a menu,” but that’s not reasonable anymore to want. Even some of it is just like a place to live spatially while you’re looking at it, and to kind of distance yourself from this device you use all the time, and to peruse this artifact that is distinctive for the restaurant you’re in, or to spill salsa on it as you’re waiting to order. Whatever you know, whatever delight happens to you, all of that just happened. It was just right there all the time, and then it wasn’t anymore. So it’s like we didn’t even know what we were losing because we didn’t notice losing it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Listening to Ian speak, I realize how rare it is to hear someone actually describe these sensations, at least outside of a poem. The feel of a paper menu between your thumb and forefinger, the satisfaction of turning a key and feeling a motor roaring to life underneath you, rumbling your seat. It feels so intimate, almost vulgar. Like, wow, Ian, getting a little personal here, aren’t we? But maybe that’s just me. Look at me. I work at a university. I spend most days sitting in front of a computer, reading words, pressing keys, reading more words, and I do this around a lot of other people who are also sitting in front of computers, reading and typing. Am I unusually deprived of these everyday sensory pleasures, like some poor neglected houseplant assuming everyone else is as thirsty as I am? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, the simple answer is this is everywhere. This dematerializing effect is everywhere and affects everyone. It affects us in different ways depending on all matter of factors, socioeconomics, where we live, the kind of job we have, the kind of life we lead, whether you have kids or not…what sort of vehicle you drive or if you don’t. All of these factors play in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian says that, yeah, sure, some jobs lend themselves to more gratifying experiences than others, but technology is changing a lot of these jobs too, generally in ways that make them less gratifying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So we’re all in it together, I think. I think we’re in it differently together. And I think that, you know, but it’s not something where it’s like, “Well, I don’t make enough money to worry about being gratified.” Like, no, do you have a human body and live in the physical world? Then this is something of concern and interest to you. It’s not an indulgence that you only undertake once your Maslow’s needs have been met. It is part of those needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>We have spent decades designing technology that’s faster, easier, more convenient, culminating in lives that we increasingly spend online with fewer reasons to interact with the physical world at all. And now maybe we’re dealing with some unintended and unwanted side effects. Well, one answer is to spend less time online, less time scrolling, fewer video games. And we do seem to be at a moment where at least some people are stepping back from these things. There’s apparently a 175% uptick in Etsy searches for beginner needlepoint kits. But is that the only way? Is the only answer here to retreat from modern technology? Or can technology provide its own kinds of sensory gratification? And of course, what the heck should we make of these birding apps? I try to get an answer after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I’ve been talking with Ian Bogost about how technology has allowed us to optimize away so many of the physical interactions that used to fill our lives with sensory gratification. But we increasingly live in digital and virtual worlds, and I want to understand whether gratification can be found here too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>A different kind of gratification perhaps, but sensory gratification all the same. And I figure if there’s one place to look, it might be video games. So is gratification one of the things that you think about when you are designing games and virtual worlds? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>It didn’t used to be. In fact, in some ways I wish I had realized this far sooner, that maybe the thing about games in particular… Look, games are purposeless. They don’t need to exist. They seem stupid because they don’t, like, get something. It’s not like an app. It’s like, oh, I’ve got this productivity tool, even if it, like, is kind of questionable in terms of whether it makes you more productive, like groupware like Slack or something. Like, we know that a game doesn’t make you more productive. All it does is distract you or give you something to do with your fingers and your hands while something else is happening. And if you think about some of the most popular, most compelling kinds of digital games, like Candy Crush, say, right? Like, why is it so delightful to just move gems or candies around so that they match and then to watch the little explosions when they take place in front of you? It’s not because that particular kind of artifact has meaning in the way that a novel or a film does, which is the way that some people in the games universe want to think of games as this inherited medium that does for the twenty-first century what cinema did for the twentieth or what the novel did for the nineteenth. But, like, it’s just a thing. It’s just, like, an apparatus that you can manipulate, you know, that you can engage with and interact with. It’s almost like games are this place where we can go to experience, among other things, the pureness of gratifying experience. And it doesn’t even have to be a digital game, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, I play backgammon many nights with my daughter. We have a backgammon set set up in our house in a kind of permanent way. And like, one reason we love it is just the sound and sight of the dice spinning against the table as they resolve, and the feel of the checkers under our fingertips and as they slide across the surface and of course, the opportunity to look one another in the eye and to be present in that particular way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think games are like these, these kind of strange mysteries that give us a reason to do that kind of stuff, that gratifying experience, without any outcome. It’s just that they’re very deeply misunderstood as such, including among the communities that play and make games deliberately. Like, for many, many years, my interest and focus as a game developer was about the meaning of games, like the idea that they could be meaningful and serious, and you could make, like, kind of documentarian games or games about politics or about complex social and political and infrastructural issues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I made a lot of those games, and I think they were interesting, but maybe I was wrong about what was fundamentally the most interesting thing about games and other kinds of digital experiences was just this opportunity to interact with this alien machine for no reason other than to feel what it’s like to interact with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why does it feel so satisfying to watch those brightly colored Tetris shapes disappear in satisfying poof when you line them up just right? Sure, there’s the goal-oriented pleasures of solving a puzzle, but there’s also the sensory pleasures of tapping your finger and having your entire visual field just rearrange itself, or hearing that celebratory little jingle. So clearly it is possible to find gratification behind a screen. A lot of gratification. While I was editing this episode, a colleague of mine sent me a YouTube video called “Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome?” This video actually breaks down why Mario’s jump feels so awesome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome?]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What made the jump for Super Mario Brothers so groundbreaking is that it had its own specific physics.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]: \u003c/strong>But I still wonder, when do screens provide this kind of gratification and when do they just distract us from the real world with all of its sensory pleasures? Like, are we better off enjoying Mario’s awesome jumps or just, like, jumping ourselves?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I’ve always been fascinated by these tech-mediated experiences that change how we actually experience the physical world. So example would be, we take out our phone, you’ve got your Merlin app, and that tells you what bird call you’re hearing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Or maybe you’re just taking out your phone to take a picture of the bird. And on the one hand, this does kind of get us out of that moment, but on the other hand, maybe that’s what got us outdoors in the first place. And to, to put this in the idea of, of games here, I’m sure you’re familiar with Pokemon Go. Sure. So I recently took my eight-year-old to the Field Museum here in Chicago. The place was completely overrun by eight-year-olds all attending a Pokemon exhibit, and there was this virtual game overlaid over the, you know, physical museum. And I just, I was like, are these hybrid experiences, are they giving us, like, a path toward gratification or away from gratification?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> There is a famous photographer, of the 20th century named, named Garry Winogrand, and there’s this, like, quite, quite famous quote from, from Garry Winogrand, who took, like, so many photographs that he didn’t even bother developing them all. There’s, like, rolls and rolls and rolls of undeveloped film found after Garry Winogrand’s death and he took so many almost indiscriminately took pictures. And he has this amazing quote that goes something like, “I take pictures to see what the world looks like photographed.” And what’s so impressive about that idea to me, what’s so clarifying about it, is that it tells you something obvious that nevertheless needed to be said, which is that the world is different from the photograph. And when you look at a scene and you’re seeing it with your eyes and in your body, that’s different from framing it inside the boundaries of a viewfinder or on the emulsion of a film, let alone all of the properties of that film and how it was focused through the particular optical instrument that did so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the two things are different from one another. So there’s the world, and there’s your photograph of it, and one doesn’t replace the other, and both are equally amazing and delightful in different ways. Now, if you lived your entire life without photography, having known that photography existed, I’m not talking about, like, before photography was invented, you’re – It would be a less rich life; because photographs give you a way of, of looking at not just the world, but objects themselves or images on screens as we use them today. That’s amazing. Now, this idea that we have, that we have to have to give up or trade one for the other, that is so fascinating. Like, oh, I’m only inspired to go into the physical world if I have an incentive in the form of Pokémon that I can search and collect. Like, there’s something weird about that, but there’s also something weird about saying, “Ah, that’s an impure way of experiencing the museum or your neighborhood or whatever,” that you’re only going out into it in order that you can collect these, you know, commercialized rare creatures. We can have it both ways, and the more we accept that we can have it both ways, and even that we must have it both ways, the better off we will be. Now, if you find yourself wanting to live always and fully and entirely in one of those spheres over the other, that’s where I think maybe it’s not that you’re doing something wrong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t want to make a moral judgment. It’s like you are missing out. If you met someone, and they were like, “Well, I just don’t engage with photography. Photography is not something that I want to partake of,” you’d be like, “I don’t even know what you mean. Like, what does that mean?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian really doesn’t want to offer a moral judgment here. You want to go birding or visit a museum and take your phone out? Go for it. We don’t have to see that experience as but a pale imitation of the one provided by the physical world. We can see it as its own thing and enjoy it on its own terms for what it has to offer. And maybe the best thing to do if we are gonna get all judgy here is try to have both experiences. I hear all this, and in my head, I’m kind of nodding along. But my producer Jesse was listening in and he wasn’t fully buying it. Like really? We really aren’t gonna judge someone for having a big day out and then just staring at their phone? Can’t we just admit that they are objectively missing out? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>I think this is a riff on Jess’s question about the sort of hybrid experiences, the Merlin app, the Pokemon Go. And you know, when you answered it, you sort of declined to make a value judgment, you know, sort of outdoors versus apps, digital spaces. You know, one of the things I do if I have time at the end of my workday, I live near the beach, and so I’ll grab my camera or, sometimes a fishing rod, sometimes a surfboard, and I’ll spend some time by the ocean if I can manage to do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Amazing. I’m very jealous. It’s wonderful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, that’s why I live where I live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost\u003c/strong>: Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>And I will sometimes see people who are enjoying the same space I’m enjoying, and the way they’re doing it is by taking photos of each other or taking selfies and posing and standing in different places, and then kind of experimenting with different lightings and different backdrops and sort of throwing the outfit out so it catches the light in an interesting way. And I feel kind of sad because these people are actually kind of closing themselves off to the experience. You know, I am imagining that they’re optimizing for Instagram or TikTok or something like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, they probably are. You’re probably right that they are optimizing for social media engagement, which is a kind of goal setting and a kind of accomplishment or a kind of outcome-oriented living. But even your version of it, which is more internal, it’s more in your head, is still kind of goal-oriented, right? Like, I’m gonna go and commune with nature and the beach, and I’m gonna do so in a purer way. And the truth is probably that both of these activities have something new to offer us about the environment, the beach, the weather, whatever it is. Cause, like, think about the … I know what you mean by, you see them throwing their garments or they have an accessory or something and they want it to catch the wind and get that in the photo, and that’s not something you’re doing, right? Like, they’re encountering the light glinting off of the fabric or maybe their shoes or sandals are off and in the sand, and they’re experiencing that sensation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the thing is always more than the thing, and one of the reasons I’m not, I’m trying to not to make judgment isn’t because I don’t have judgments to make. I think that’s the easiest thing to do. But just to, like, stop and recognize, okay, you know, taking pictures for Instagram involves a different set of sensory experiences, than taking, you know, documentarian photos for the purpose of collecting for an album or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that those, like, those offer different delights. That feels not like more measured. It’s not like it’s more Aristotelian, which maybe it is. It’s more just like “Huh, I wonder what it’s like to try the other thing.” Maybe I should, maybe I should be open to it if the, if the opportunity arises, or maybe at the very least, I should admit to myself that every act has a sensory payload, and that sensory payload is what I’m really interested in as the gratifying experience separate from the value or the fact of the outcome it produces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Every act has a sensory payload separate from the outcome it produces. I like this a lot. Even in our increasingly slick, scentless, dial-less, lever-less, paperless, outcome-focused world, there is still no shortage of gratifying experiences on offer, and we don’t have to throw away our screens to find them. We just have to be a lot more intentional about recognizing them wherever they are, and maybe occasionally seeking out some new ones too, so we aren’t all just getting the same kind of sensory payload all the time. Because it really is about variety, and variety is exactly what we stand to lose when our lives are being streamlined for maximal efficiency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Just, like, think about the nature of the sensory life that’s really easy and common for you. Like, you know, if you drive to work every day and you’re spending a lot of time in your car, and then you work an office job where you’re moving symbols around, on computers and through networks, then it’s not so much like that you need to get outside or you need to be in nature or something like that, or you need to bike instead of driving. It’s more like, “Where could I find sensory experience that is different?” Or what I call ‘orthogonal’ to that, to that experience. And, you know, maybe that means gardening, but not so that you can grow herbs or so that you can, like, feel good about having a tidy yard, but just so you can feel the wetness of soil under your fingertips and in your fingernails. And that’s kind of the purpose of it, not to do anything but just to spend time with other objects. Crafts or something like this, or hobbies too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I mean, I think these are great. I have a daughter who loves throwing rocks. We even built her a little tiny pond in our little Chicago backyard. She loves the sensory sensation of big rock, little rock. And I’m, like, kind of already, like, in this conversation, like, okay, I gotta, like, make some time this afternoon and just, like, sit down and throw rocks with her. But these are, these are all, like, individual things that we can do, and I’m curious if you’ve thought about things that we might be able to do collectively to maybe have more control over our environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> Sure. Yeah, there is – I think it’s very– Look, there are many cultural, economic, socio-economic, bureaucratic, technological, circumstances we find ourselves in that have contributed to our loss of gratifying sensation, to this process of dematerialization. And if you could remedy those, even in small part, I bet we would feel more gratified. I think one reason, at least in this book, that I tried to put the, like, just pause from worrying so much about systemic solutions isn’t because I don’t believe that systemic solutions are important or that these problems are worthy of those kinds of remedy, but because I think we have a predilection to think, “Well, I can’t do anything about this until the big problems are solved.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If kids could go to the park in the first place because we built parks and we didn’t arrest them when they went there on their bikes on their own, or their parents, then we could talk. And I get it. I empathize with that position. I understand it. I just don’t wanna wait. I mean, I’ve worked on systemic problems and solutions for a big part of my career, and I’m still very interested in them. But for this moment, just like introducing the world to this idea of gratification, warming us up to doing it, I wanted to say, “You know what?” It’s a small stuff solution to a small stuff problem, actually, which doesn’t mean that big solutions wouldn’t help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong>So I don’t need to, like, solve all the world’s problems before I go sit outside and throw rocks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> That’s the key.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, we thought we’d take our own advice and try to make our show credits just a little more gratifying. I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Tom Dixon. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada and Lauren Ko. Special thanks to Laura Pavin, Rob Mitchum, and of course, today’s guest, Ian Bogost. His new book is “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” And if you like Life, Automated, consider sharing an episode with a friend. We’re a new show, and we’d love for more people to know about us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Journalist, academic and award-winning video-game designer Ian Bogost joins host Jess Love to discuss insights from his book \u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life\u003c/a>. He makes the case that we’re losing some of the everyday pleasures of interacting with the world. But if technology has disconnected us from sensory gratification, can it also be part of the solution?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Journalist, academic and award-winning video-game designer Ian Bogost joins host Jess Love to discuss insights from his book \u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life\u003c/a>. He makes the case that we’re losing some of the everyday pleasures of interacting with the world. But if technology has disconnected us from sensory gratification, can it also be part of the solution?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life \u003c/a>– Ian Bogost, Atria Books\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life \u003c/a>– Ian Bogost, Atria Books\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2oV2DQ2dEA\">Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome\u003c/a> – Game/Show, PBS Digital Studios\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2oV2DQ2dEA\">Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome\u003c/a> – Game/Show, PBS Digital Studios\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines Every spring and fall during migration season, I head to Montrose Point Bird Sanctuary here in Chicago. It’s this gorgeous strip of dunes and hedges and grasses hugging the side of Lake Michigan, a waypoint for hundreds of species of birds, and it’s hugely popular with birders, a lot of whom I’ve noticed walk through the sanctuary with their phones out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines Every spring and fall during migration season, I head to Montrose Point Bird Sanctuary here in Chicago. It’s this gorgeous strip of dunes and hedges and grasses hugging the side of Lake Michigan, a waypoint for hundreds of species of birds, and it’s hugely popular with birders, a lot of whom I’ve noticed walk through the sanctuary with their phones out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They are almost certainly doing something related to birding, using popular apps like Merlin or eBird to ID bird calls or add to their own life lists. Or maybe they’re just taking pictures. I am aware of these possibilities because I, too, have downloaded these apps. I, too, am trying to take pictures. So here we all are on a beautiful, crisp morning with all of Lake Michigan on offer, and we’re staring at our phones.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They are almost certainly doing something related to birding, using popular apps like Merlin or eBird to ID bird calls or add to their own life lists. Or maybe they’re just taking pictures. I am aware of these possibilities because I, too, have downloaded these apps. I, too, am trying to take pictures. So here we all are on a beautiful, crisp morning with all of Lake Michigan on offer, and we’re staring at our phones.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m honestly not sure what to make of that. On the one hand, it’s birding. Whatever gets you out there, right? But on the other, what are we missing by letting technology mediate so much of this experience? I actually have this thought a lot because it’s not just birding. So much of modern life is mediated and warped by technology in ways we don’t always see because we’re just too close to it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m honestly not sure what to make of that. On the one hand, it’s birding. Whatever gets you out there, right? But on the other, what are we missing by letting technology mediate so much of this experience? I actually have this thought a lot because it’s not just birding. So much of modern life is mediated and warped by technology in ways we don’t always see because we’re just too close to it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I knew I wanted to talk about this with Ian Bogost. Ian recently wrote a book called “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” The book argues that we’re losing a lot of these sensory experiences that used to fill our everyday lives. As in the places we build, the objects we design, the technology we use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I knew I wanted to talk about this with Ian Bogost. Ian recently wrote a book called “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” The book argues that we’re losing a lot of these sensory experiences that used to fill our everyday lives. As in the places we build, the objects we design, the technology we use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over time, in the name of convenience and efficiency, we’ve stripped them of a lot of texture, sights, sounds, physical sensations, all things that actually bring us a lot of joy. But here’s the thing. In addition to being a media scholar at Washington University in St. Louis and a journalist at The Atlantic, Ian is also a video game designer, hardly a Luddite. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over time, in the name of convenience and efficiency, we’ve stripped them of a lot of texture, sights, sounds, physical sensations, all things that actually bring us a lot of joy. But here’s the thing. In addition to being a media scholar at Washington University in St. Louis and a journalist at The Atlantic, Ian is also a video game designer, hardly a Luddite. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So have we traded some of the simple sensory pleasures of just being in the world for more streamlined bird identification, or is there more to it than that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So have we traded some of the simple sensory pleasures of just being in the world for more streamlined bird identification, or is there more to it than that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a project of Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love and this is my conversation with Ian Bogost. I began by asking Ian if he could identify a moment when he first realized we’d lost some of the sensory pleasures of actually interacting with the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> The big one, the one that’s easy to identify, is the one that I talk about in the book when I wrote this kinda monster story for The Atlantic about the stick shift, the end of the stick shift. It was a monster story in the sense that a lot of people read it, not that I thought it was gonna be important. I thought it was just a little thing, you know? And the reactions from that, just the volume of them, and the passion of people lamenting and remembering their experience controlling a machine in that way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> The big one, the one that’s easy to identify, is the one that I talk about in the book when I wrote this kinda monster story for The Atlantic about the stick shift, the end of the stick shift. It was a monster story in the sense that a lot of people read it, not that I thought it was gonna be important. I thought it was just a little thing, you know? And the reactions from that, just the volume of them, and the passion of people lamenting and remembering their experience controlling a machine in that way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Ian was struck by the magnitude and variety of these responses. People really missed the stick shift, and it went beyond simple nostalgia. They missed these sensory moments, like the jerkiness of it all, seeing and feeling the gearshift move. Today’s automatic transmissions are more energy efficient than stick shifts ever were. They’re easier to learn. There’s no worrying about your clutch. Logically, there’s not really much to miss, and yet a lot of people still miss it and all the experiences that came along with it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Ian was struck by the magnitude and variety of these responses. People really missed the stick shift, and it went beyond simple nostalgia. They missed these sensory moments, like the jerkiness of it all, seeing and feeling the gearshift move. Today’s automatic transmissions are more energy efficient than stick shifts ever were. They’re easier to learn. There’s no worrying about your clutch. Logically, there’s not really much to miss, and yet a lot of people still miss it and all the experiences that came along with it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “Oh, okay. I see.” It’s like a family of experiences, and those… It’s not just one thing. It’s not just, like, being a gearhead or, like, wanting to control your vehicle. It’s rather that we’re surrounded by all of this stuff that seems like it’s just noise and that it’s something to get through to get to the big stuff, the good stuff. But no, those experiences matter, and they matter as first-order parts of our day-to-day lives, but then also our lives as a whole. And so it was that… That realization was confusing to me ’cause I didn’t feel like there was a name for it. I mean, I ended up naming it ‘gratification’ or borrowing the word gratification to name it. This thing that describes, like, what I call the sensory enchantment of everyday life. But I had this realization that we had all kind of agreed without agreeing that that stuff was not important, and so discovering that it was important and that it wasn’t just important to me but to everyone, that was really magical and enlightening and, kind of life-changing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “Oh, okay. I see.” It’s like a family of experiences, and those… It’s not just one thing. It’s not just, like, being a gearhead or, like, wanting to control your vehicle. It’s rather that we’re surrounded by all of this stuff that seems like it’s just noise and that it’s something to get through to get to the big stuff, the good stuff. But no, those experiences matter, and they matter as first-order parts of our day-to-day lives, but then also our lives as a whole. And so it was that… That realization was confusing to me ’cause I didn’t feel like there was a name for it. I mean, I ended up naming it ‘gratification’ or borrowing the word gratification to name it. This thing that describes, like, what I call the sensory enchantment of everyday life. But I had this realization that we had all kind of agreed without agreeing that that stuff was not important, and so discovering that it was important and that it wasn’t just important to me but to everyone, that was really magical and enlightening and, kind of life-changing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Gratification. That’s the term Ian gives to the magical, enlightening, and kind of life-changing sensory stuff that we encounter all day long, or at least that we used to encounter all day long but increasingly maybe aren’t getting quite as much of. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Gratification. That’s the term Ian gives to the magical, enlightening, and kind of life-changing sensory stuff that we encounter all day long, or at least that we used to encounter all day long but increasingly maybe aren’t getting quite as much of. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So think about anything you do in your daily life. I mean, you have to go shopping for groceries. And, you know, in the past you’d have to make a list, and maybe you’d write that down on paper, on a piece of scratch paper with a pen that you particularly liked using, and then you’d put it in your pocket, and you’d sort of fold it up, and it would have a certain feel of the paper as it tore off.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So think about anything you do in your daily life. I mean, you have to go shopping for groceries. And, you know, in the past you’d have to make a list, and maybe you’d write that down on paper, on a piece of scratch paper with a pen that you particularly liked using, and then you’d put it in your pocket, and you’d sort of fold it up, and it would have a certain feel of the paper as it tore off.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And maybe the paper made a sound as you tore it. And then you’d get in your car, which maybe had a stick shift and maybe didn’t, but even if it didn’t, you’d turn the key in the ignition, and you’d press your foot down on the pedal, and you’d turn the knob on the radio physically as you drove to the store.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And maybe the paper made a sound as you tore it. And then you’d get in your car, which maybe had a stick shift and maybe didn’t, but even if it didn’t, you’d turn the key in the ignition, and you’d press your foot down on the pedal, and you’d turn the knob on the radio physically as you drove to the store.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you’d get the cart, and the cart wobbled a little bit, but you felt it underneath you and against the cold floor, beneath your feet, and then you’d touch the produce to figure out which ones met your desired level of ripeness and all the rest of it. And, you know, you can kind of fill in all those blanks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And you’d get the cart, and the cart wobbled a little bit, but you felt it underneath you and against the cold floor, beneath your feet, and then you’d touch the produce to figure out which ones met your desired level of ripeness and all the rest of it. And, you know, you can kind of fill in all those blanks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s like we automatically got this rich and diverse sensory experience just by doing things that we had to do every day. And we may not have thought of those things as desirable, like, “Ugh, I gotta go do the grocery shopping,” but since you had to go do it, you couldn’t just Instacart your way out of that problem, all this other stuff kind of came along for the ride.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it’s like we automatically got this rich and diverse sensory experience just by doing things that we had to do every day. And we may not have thought of those things as desirable, like, “Ugh, I gotta go do the grocery shopping,” but since you had to go do it, you couldn’t just Instacart your way out of that problem, all this other stuff kind of came along for the ride.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what we lost in part wasn’t just all of those sensory encounters I just mentioned, but the very idea that they were being delivered to us continuously, so much so that we almost didn’t notice them happening. And there’s so many other examples of this, right? Like the feel of an old school Western Electric style telephone handset, the heft of it, the kind of intimacy of your voice in your own ear and against your mouth, the ability to smash it down on the hook to hang it up, the sound of the ring, the quality of the sound along the copper line, the feeling of dialing the rotary mechanism or pressing the touch tone buttons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what we lost in part wasn’t just all of those sensory encounters I just mentioned, but the very idea that they were being delivered to us continuously, so much so that we almost didn’t notice them happening. And there’s so many other examples of this, right? Like the feel of an old school Western Electric style telephone handset, the heft of it, the kind of intimacy of your voice in your own ear and against your mouth, the ability to smash it down on the hook to hang it up, the sound of the ring, the quality of the sound along the copper line, the feeling of dialing the rotary mechanism or pressing the touch tone buttons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s like that was just what making a phone call was, you know? And now it’s like, well, I’ve got this phone and the… and this has an app for a phone app on it, and it doesn’t really work well, but, like, that’s… But I, and I hate making phone calls anyway. It’s like, well, maybe what you hate is the experience that phone calls evolved into and the fact that they were so sensorily bereft that you didn’t even wanna pursue them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s like that was just what making a phone call was, you know? And now it’s like, well, I’ve got this phone and the… and this has an app for a phone app on it, and it doesn’t really work well, but, like, that’s… But I, and I hate making phone calls anyway. It’s like, well, maybe what you hate is the experience that phone calls evolved into and the fact that they were so sensorily bereft that you didn’t even wanna pursue them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then it’s like a digital line, and it’s always dropping, and you can’t hear someone anyway and all, and all the rest of it. So, I found that people love identifying and talking about these, these feelings of sensory life that they remember but have lost. And the big thing, the big collective thing is they just happened automatically. They just happened to you. They were a part of the texture and the background noise of daily life, and then they weren’t. anymore. Like during the pandemic when all of us stopped going places, and we worked from home, and we ordered delivery all the time, and, QR codes for menus became a thing. And now you go to a restaurant, and you still have a QR code maybe for a menu, and you feel in your head and in your heart and in your fingertips, you’re like, “I want a menu,” but that’s not reasonable anymore to want. Even some of it is just like a place to live spatially while you’re looking at it, and to kind of distance yourself from this device you use all the time, and to peruse this artifact that is distinctive for the restaurant you’re in, or to spill salsa on it as you’re waiting to order. Whatever you know, whatever delight happens to you, all of that just happened. It was just right there all the time, and then it wasn’t anymore. So it’s like we didn’t even know what we were losing because we didn’t notice losing it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then it’s like a digital line, and it’s always dropping, and you can’t hear someone anyway and all, and all the rest of it. So, I found that people love identifying and talking about these, these feelings of sensory life that they remember but have lost. And the big thing, the big collective thing is they just happened automatically. They just happened to you. They were a part of the texture and the background noise of daily life, and then they weren’t. anymore. Like during the pandemic when all of us stopped going places, and we worked from home, and we ordered delivery all the time, and, QR codes for menus became a thing. And now you go to a restaurant, and you still have a QR code maybe for a menu, and you feel in your head and in your heart and in your fingertips, you’re like, “I want a menu,” but that’s not reasonable anymore to want. Even some of it is just like a place to live spatially while you’re looking at it, and to kind of distance yourself from this device you use all the time, and to peruse this artifact that is distinctive for the restaurant you’re in, or to spill salsa on it as you’re waiting to order. Whatever you know, whatever delight happens to you, all of that just happened. It was just right there all the time, and then it wasn’t anymore. So it’s like we didn’t even know what we were losing because we didn’t notice losing it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Listening to Ian speak, I realize how rare it is to hear someone actually describe these sensations, at least outside of a poem. The feel of a paper menu between your thumb and forefinger, the satisfaction of turning a key and feeling a motor roaring to life underneath you, rumbling your seat. It feels so intimate, almost vulgar. Like, wow, Ian, getting a little personal here, aren’t we? But maybe that’s just me. Look at me. I work at a university. I spend most days sitting in front of a computer, reading words, pressing keys, reading more words, and I do this around a lot of other people who are also sitting in front of computers, reading and typing. Am I unusually deprived of these everyday sensory pleasures, like some poor neglected houseplant assuming everyone else is as thirsty as I am? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Listening to Ian speak, I realize how rare it is to hear someone actually describe these sensations, at least outside of a poem. The feel of a paper menu between your thumb and forefinger, the satisfaction of turning a key and feeling a motor roaring to life underneath you, rumbling your seat. It feels so intimate, almost vulgar. Like, wow, Ian, getting a little personal here, aren’t we? But maybe that’s just me. Look at me. I work at a university. I spend most days sitting in front of a computer, reading words, pressing keys, reading more words, and I do this around a lot of other people who are also sitting in front of computers, reading and typing. Am I unusually deprived of these everyday sensory pleasures, like some poor neglected houseplant assuming everyone else is as thirsty as I am? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, the simple answer is this is everywhere. This dematerializing effect is everywhere and affects everyone. It affects us in different ways depending on all matter of factors, socioeconomics, where we live, the kind of job we have, the kind of life we lead, whether you have kids or not…what sort of vehicle you drive or if you don’t. All of these factors play in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, the simple answer is this is everywhere. This dematerializing effect is everywhere and affects everyone. It affects us in different ways depending on all matter of factors, socioeconomics, where we live, the kind of job we have, the kind of life we lead, whether you have kids or not…what sort of vehicle you drive or if you don’t. All of these factors play in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian says that, yeah, sure, some jobs lend themselves to more gratifying experiences than others, but technology is changing a lot of these jobs too, generally in ways that make them less gratifying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian says that, yeah, sure, some jobs lend themselves to more gratifying experiences than others, but technology is changing a lot of these jobs too, generally in ways that make them less gratifying. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So we’re all in it together, I think. I think we’re in it differently together. And I think that, you know, but it’s not something where it’s like, “Well, I don’t make enough money to worry about being gratified.” Like, no, do you have a human body and live in the physical world? Then this is something of concern and interest to you. It’s not an indulgence that you only undertake once your Maslow’s needs have been met. It is part of those needs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So we’re all in it together, I think. I think we’re in it differently together. And I think that, you know, but it’s not something where it’s like, “Well, I don’t make enough money to worry about being gratified.” Like, no, do you have a human body and live in the physical world? Then this is something of concern and interest to you. It’s not an indulgence that you only undertake once your Maslow’s needs have been met. It is part of those needs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>We have spent decades designing technology that’s faster, easier, more convenient, culminating in lives that we increasingly spend online with fewer reasons to interact with the physical world at all. And now maybe we’re dealing with some unintended and unwanted side effects. Well, one answer is to spend less time online, less time scrolling, fewer video games. And we do seem to be at a moment where at least some people are stepping back from these things. There’s apparently a 175% uptick in Etsy searches for beginner needlepoint kits. But is that the only way? Is the only answer here to retreat from modern technology? Or can technology provide its own kinds of sensory gratification? And of course, what the heck should we make of these birding apps? I try to get an answer after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>We have spent decades designing technology that’s faster, easier, more convenient, culminating in lives that we increasingly spend online with fewer reasons to interact with the physical world at all. And now maybe we’re dealing with some unintended and unwanted side effects. Well, one answer is to spend less time online, less time scrolling, fewer video games. And we do seem to be at a moment where at least some people are stepping back from these things. There’s apparently a 175% uptick in Etsy searches for beginner needlepoint kits. But is that the only way? Is the only answer here to retreat from modern technology? Or can technology provide its own kinds of sensory gratification? And of course, what the heck should we make of these birding apps? I try to get an answer after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I’ve been talking with Ian Bogost about how technology has allowed us to optimize away so many of the physical interactions that used to fill our lives with sensory gratification. But we increasingly live in digital and virtual worlds, and I want to understand whether gratification can be found here too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I’ve been talking with Ian Bogost about how technology has allowed us to optimize away so many of the physical interactions that used to fill our lives with sensory gratification. But we increasingly live in digital and virtual worlds, and I want to understand whether gratification can be found here too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>A different kind of gratification perhaps, but sensory gratification all the same. And I figure if there’s one place to look, it might be video games. So is gratification one of the things that you think about when you are designing games and virtual worlds? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>A different kind of gratification perhaps, but sensory gratification all the same. And I figure if there’s one place to look, it might be video games. So is gratification one of the things that you think about when you are designing games and virtual worlds? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>It didn’t used to be. In fact, in some ways I wish I had realized this far sooner, that maybe the thing about games in particular… Look, games are purposeless. They don’t need to exist. They seem stupid because they don’t, like, get something. It’s not like an app. It’s like, oh, I’ve got this productivity tool, even if it, like, is kind of questionable in terms of whether it makes you more productive, like groupware like Slack or something. Like, we know that a game doesn’t make you more productive. All it does is distract you or give you something to do with your fingers and your hands while something else is happening. And if you think about some of the most popular, most compelling kinds of digital games, like Candy Crush, say, right? Like, why is it so delightful to just move gems or candies around so that they match and then to watch the little explosions when they take place in front of you? It’s not because that particular kind of artifact has meaning in the way that a novel or a film does, which is the way that some people in the games universe want to think of games as this inherited medium that does for the twenty-first century what cinema did for the twentieth or what the novel did for the nineteenth. But, like, it’s just a thing. It’s just, like, an apparatus that you can manipulate, you know, that you can engage with and interact with. It’s almost like games are this place where we can go to experience, among other things, the pureness of gratifying experience. And it doesn’t even have to be a digital game, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>It didn’t used to be. In fact, in some ways I wish I had realized this far sooner, that maybe the thing about games in particular… Look, games are purposeless. They don’t need to exist. They seem stupid because they don’t, like, get something. It’s not like an app. It’s like, oh, I’ve got this productivity tool, even if it, like, is kind of questionable in terms of whether it makes you more productive, like groupware like Slack or something. Like, we know that a game doesn’t make you more productive. All it does is distract you or give you something to do with your fingers and your hands while something else is happening. And if you think about some of the most popular, most compelling kinds of digital games, like Candy Crush, say, right? Like, why is it so delightful to just move gems or candies around so that they match and then to watch the little explosions when they take place in front of you? It’s not because that particular kind of artifact has meaning in the way that a novel or a film does, which is the way that some people in the games universe want to think of games as this inherited medium that does for the twenty-first century what cinema did for the twentieth or what the novel did for the nineteenth. But, like, it’s just a thing. It’s just, like, an apparatus that you can manipulate, you know, that you can engage with and interact with. It’s almost like games are this place where we can go to experience, among other things, the pureness of gratifying experience. And it doesn’t even have to be a digital game, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, I play backgammon many nights with my daughter. We have a backgammon set set up in our house in a kind of permanent way. And like, one reason we love it is just the sound and sight of the dice spinning against the table as they resolve, and the feel of the checkers under our fingertips and as they slide across the surface and of course, the opportunity to look one another in the eye and to be present in that particular way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, I play backgammon many nights with my daughter. We have a backgammon set set up in our house in a kind of permanent way. And like, one reason we love it is just the sound and sight of the dice spinning against the table as they resolve, and the feel of the checkers under our fingertips and as they slide across the surface and of course, the opportunity to look one another in the eye and to be present in that particular way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think games are like these, these kind of strange mysteries that give us a reason to do that kind of stuff, that gratifying experience, without any outcome. It’s just that they’re very deeply misunderstood as such, including among the communities that play and make games deliberately. Like, for many, many years, my interest and focus as a game developer was about the meaning of games, like the idea that they could be meaningful and serious, and you could make, like, kind of documentarian games or games about politics or about complex social and political and infrastructural issues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think games are like these, these kind of strange mysteries that give us a reason to do that kind of stuff, that gratifying experience, without any outcome. It’s just that they’re very deeply misunderstood as such, including among the communities that play and make games deliberately. Like, for many, many years, my interest and focus as a game developer was about the meaning of games, like the idea that they could be meaningful and serious, and you could make, like, kind of documentarian games or games about politics or about complex social and political and infrastructural issues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I made a lot of those games, and I think they were interesting, but maybe I was wrong about what was fundamentally the most interesting thing about games and other kinds of digital experiences was just this opportunity to interact with this alien machine for no reason other than to feel what it’s like to interact with it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I made a lot of those games, and I think they were interesting, but maybe I was wrong about what was fundamentally the most interesting thing about games and other kinds of digital experiences was just this opportunity to interact with this alien machine for no reason other than to feel what it’s like to interact with it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why does it feel so satisfying to watch those brightly colored Tetris shapes disappear in satisfying poof when you line them up just right? Sure, there’s the goal-oriented pleasures of solving a puzzle, but there’s also the sensory pleasures of tapping your finger and having your entire visual field just rearrange itself, or hearing that celebratory little jingle. So clearly it is possible to find gratification behind a screen. A lot of gratification. While I was editing this episode, a colleague of mine sent me a YouTube video called “Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome?” This video actually breaks down why Mario’s jump feels so awesome. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why does it feel so satisfying to watch those brightly colored Tetris shapes disappear in satisfying poof when you line them up just right? Sure, there’s the goal-oriented pleasures of solving a puzzle, but there’s also the sensory pleasures of tapping your finger and having your entire visual field just rearrange itself, or hearing that celebratory little jingle. So clearly it is possible to find gratification behind a screen. A lot of gratification. While I was editing this episode, a colleague of mine sent me a YouTube video called “Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome?” This video actually breaks down why Mario’s jump feels so awesome. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome?]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What made the jump for Super Mario Brothers so groundbreaking is that it had its own specific physics.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What made the jump for Super Mario Brothers so groundbreaking is that it had its own specific physics.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]: \u003c/strong>But I still wonder, when do screens provide this kind of gratification and when do they just distract us from the real world with all of its sensory pleasures? Like, are we better off enjoying Mario’s awesome jumps or just, like, jumping ourselves?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]: \u003c/strong>But I still wonder, when do screens provide this kind of gratification and when do they just distract us from the real world with all of its sensory pleasures? Like, are we better off enjoying Mario’s awesome jumps or just, like, jumping ourselves?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I’ve always been fascinated by these tech-mediated experiences that change how we actually experience the physical world. So example would be, we take out our phone, you’ve got your Merlin app, and that tells you what bird call you’re hearing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I’ve always been fascinated by these tech-mediated experiences that change how we actually experience the physical world. So example would be, we take out our phone, you’ve got your Merlin app, and that tells you what bird call you’re hearing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Or maybe you’re just taking out your phone to take a picture of the bird. And on the one hand, this does kind of get us out of that moment, but on the other hand, maybe that’s what got us outdoors in the first place. And to, to put this in the idea of, of games here, I’m sure you’re familiar with Pokemon Go. Sure. So I recently took my eight-year-old to the Field Museum here in Chicago. The place was completely overrun by eight-year-olds all attending a Pokemon exhibit, and there was this virtual game overlaid over the, you know, physical museum. And I just, I was like, are these hybrid experiences, are they giving us, like, a path toward gratification or away from gratification?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Or maybe you’re just taking out your phone to take a picture of the bird. And on the one hand, this does kind of get us out of that moment, but on the other hand, maybe that’s what got us outdoors in the first place. And to, to put this in the idea of, of games here, I’m sure you’re familiar with Pokemon Go. Sure. So I recently took my eight-year-old to the Field Museum here in Chicago. The place was completely overrun by eight-year-olds all attending a Pokemon exhibit, and there was this virtual game overlaid over the, you know, physical museum. And I just, I was like, are these hybrid experiences, are they giving us, like, a path toward gratification or away from gratification?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> There is a famous photographer, of the 20th century named, named Garry Winogrand, and there’s this, like, quite, quite famous quote from, from Garry Winogrand, who took, like, so many photographs that he didn’t even bother developing them all. There’s, like, rolls and rolls and rolls of undeveloped film found after Garry Winogrand’s death and he took so many almost indiscriminately took pictures. And he has this amazing quote that goes something like, “I take pictures to see what the world looks like photographed.” And what’s so impressive about that idea to me, what’s so clarifying about it, is that it tells you something obvious that nevertheless needed to be said, which is that the world is different from the photograph. And when you look at a scene and you’re seeing it with your eyes and in your body, that’s different from framing it inside the boundaries of a viewfinder or on the emulsion of a film, let alone all of the properties of that film and how it was focused through the particular optical instrument that did so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> There is a famous photographer, of the 20th century named, named Garry Winogrand, and there’s this, like, quite, quite famous quote from, from Garry Winogrand, who took, like, so many photographs that he didn’t even bother developing them all. There’s, like, rolls and rolls and rolls of undeveloped film found after Garry Winogrand’s death and he took so many almost indiscriminately took pictures. And he has this amazing quote that goes something like, “I take pictures to see what the world looks like photographed.” And what’s so impressive about that idea to me, what’s so clarifying about it, is that it tells you something obvious that nevertheless needed to be said, which is that the world is different from the photograph. And when you look at a scene and you’re seeing it with your eyes and in your body, that’s different from framing it inside the boundaries of a viewfinder or on the emulsion of a film, let alone all of the properties of that film and how it was focused through the particular optical instrument that did so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the two things are different from one another. So there’s the world, and there’s your photograph of it, and one doesn’t replace the other, and both are equally amazing and delightful in different ways. Now, if you lived your entire life without photography, having known that photography existed, I’m not talking about, like, before photography was invented, you’re – It would be a less rich life; because photographs give you a way of, of looking at not just the world, but objects themselves or images on screens as we use them today. That’s amazing. Now, this idea that we have, that we have to have to give up or trade one for the other, that is so fascinating. Like, oh, I’m only inspired to go into the physical world if I have an incentive in the form of Pokémon that I can search and collect. Like, there’s something weird about that, but there’s also something weird about saying, “Ah, that’s an impure way of experiencing the museum or your neighborhood or whatever,” that you’re only going out into it in order that you can collect these, you know, commercialized rare creatures. We can have it both ways, and the more we accept that we can have it both ways, and even that we must have it both ways, the better off we will be. Now, if you find yourself wanting to live always and fully and entirely in one of those spheres over the other, that’s where I think maybe it’s not that you’re doing something wrong.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the two things are different from one another. So there’s the world, and there’s your photograph of it, and one doesn’t replace the other, and both are equally amazing and delightful in different ways. Now, if you lived your entire life without photography, having known that photography existed, I’m not talking about, like, before photography was invented, you’re – It would be a less rich life; because photographs give you a way of, of looking at not just the world, but objects themselves or images on screens as we use them today. That’s amazing. Now, this idea that we have, that we have to have to give up or trade one for the other, that is so fascinating. Like, oh, I’m only inspired to go into the physical world if I have an incentive in the form of Pokémon that I can search and collect. Like, there’s something weird about that, but there’s also something weird about saying, “Ah, that’s an impure way of experiencing the museum or your neighborhood or whatever,” that you’re only going out into it in order that you can collect these, you know, commercialized rare creatures. We can have it both ways, and the more we accept that we can have it both ways, and even that we must have it both ways, the better off we will be. Now, if you find yourself wanting to live always and fully and entirely in one of those spheres over the other, that’s where I think maybe it’s not that you’re doing something wrong.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I don’t want to make a moral judgment. It’s like you are missing out. If you met someone, and they were like, “Well, I just don’t engage with photography. Photography is not something that I want to partake of,” you’d be like, “I don’t even know what you mean. Like, what does that mean?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I don’t want to make a moral judgment. It’s like you are missing out. If you met someone, and they were like, “Well, I just don’t engage with photography. Photography is not something that I want to partake of,” you’d be like, “I don’t even know what you mean. Like, what does that mean?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian really doesn’t want to offer a moral judgment here. You want to go birding or visit a museum and take your phone out? Go for it. We don’t have to see that experience as but a pale imitation of the one provided by the physical world. We can see it as its own thing and enjoy it on its own terms for what it has to offer. And maybe the best thing to do if we are gonna get all judgy here is try to have both experiences. I hear all this, and in my head, I’m kind of nodding along. But my producer Jesse was listening in and he wasn’t fully buying it. Like really? We really aren’t gonna judge someone for having a big day out and then just staring at their phone? Can’t we just admit that they are objectively missing out? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian really doesn’t want to offer a moral judgment here. You want to go birding or visit a museum and take your phone out? Go for it. We don’t have to see that experience as but a pale imitation of the one provided by the physical world. We can see it as its own thing and enjoy it on its own terms for what it has to offer. And maybe the best thing to do if we are gonna get all judgy here is try to have both experiences. I hear all this, and in my head, I’m kind of nodding along. But my producer Jesse was listening in and he wasn’t fully buying it. Like really? We really aren’t gonna judge someone for having a big day out and then just staring at their phone? Can’t we just admit that they are objectively missing out? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>I think this is a riff on Jess’s question about the sort of hybrid experiences, the Merlin app, the Pokemon Go. And you know, when you answered it, you sort of declined to make a value judgment, you know, sort of outdoors versus apps, digital spaces. You know, one of the things I do if I have time at the end of my workday, I live near the beach, and so I’ll grab my camera or, sometimes a fishing rod, sometimes a surfboard, and I’ll spend some time by the ocean if I can manage to do that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>I think this is a riff on Jess’s question about the sort of hybrid experiences, the Merlin app, the Pokemon Go. And you know, when you answered it, you sort of declined to make a value judgment, you know, sort of outdoors versus apps, digital spaces. You know, one of the things I do if I have time at the end of my workday, I live near the beach, and so I’ll grab my camera or, sometimes a fishing rod, sometimes a surfboard, and I’ll spend some time by the ocean if I can manage to do that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Amazing. I’m very jealous. It’s wonderful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Amazing. I’m very jealous. It’s wonderful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, that’s why I live where I live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, that’s why I live where I live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost\u003c/strong>: Totally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost\u003c/strong>: Totally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>And I will sometimes see people who are enjoying the same space I’m enjoying, and the way they’re doing it is by taking photos of each other or taking selfies and posing and standing in different places, and then kind of experimenting with different lightings and different backdrops and sort of throwing the outfit out so it catches the light in an interesting way. And I feel kind of sad because these people are actually kind of closing themselves off to the experience. You know, I am imagining that they’re optimizing for Instagram or TikTok or something like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>And I will sometimes see people who are enjoying the same space I’m enjoying, and the way they’re doing it is by taking photos of each other or taking selfies and posing and standing in different places, and then kind of experimenting with different lightings and different backdrops and sort of throwing the outfit out so it catches the light in an interesting way. And I feel kind of sad because these people are actually kind of closing themselves off to the experience. You know, I am imagining that they’re optimizing for Instagram or TikTok or something like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, they probably are. You’re probably right that they are optimizing for social media engagement, which is a kind of goal setting and a kind of accomplishment or a kind of outcome-oriented living. But even your version of it, which is more internal, it’s more in your head, is still kind of goal-oriented, right? Like, I’m gonna go and commune with nature and the beach, and I’m gonna do so in a purer way. And the truth is probably that both of these activities have something new to offer us about the environment, the beach, the weather, whatever it is. Cause, like, think about the … I know what you mean by, you see them throwing their garments or they have an accessory or something and they want it to catch the wind and get that in the photo, and that’s not something you’re doing, right? Like, they’re encountering the light glinting off of the fabric or maybe their shoes or sandals are off and in the sand, and they’re experiencing that sensation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, they probably are. You’re probably right that they are optimizing for social media engagement, which is a kind of goal setting and a kind of accomplishment or a kind of outcome-oriented living. But even your version of it, which is more internal, it’s more in your head, is still kind of goal-oriented, right? Like, I’m gonna go and commune with nature and the beach, and I’m gonna do so in a purer way. And the truth is probably that both of these activities have something new to offer us about the environment, the beach, the weather, whatever it is. Cause, like, think about the … I know what you mean by, you see them throwing their garments or they have an accessory or something and they want it to catch the wind and get that in the photo, and that’s not something you’re doing, right? Like, they’re encountering the light glinting off of the fabric or maybe their shoes or sandals are off and in the sand, and they’re experiencing that sensation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the thing is always more than the thing, and one of the reasons I’m not, I’m trying to not to make judgment isn’t because I don’t have judgments to make. I think that’s the easiest thing to do. But just to, like, stop and recognize, okay, you know, taking pictures for Instagram involves a different set of sensory experiences, than taking, you know, documentarian photos for the purpose of collecting for an album or whatever.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the thing is always more than the thing, and one of the reasons I’m not, I’m trying to not to make judgment isn’t because I don’t have judgments to make. I think that’s the easiest thing to do. But just to, like, stop and recognize, okay, you know, taking pictures for Instagram involves a different set of sensory experiences, than taking, you know, documentarian photos for the purpose of collecting for an album or whatever.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that those, like, those offer different delights. That feels not like more measured. It’s not like it’s more Aristotelian, which maybe it is. It’s more just like “Huh, I wonder what it’s like to try the other thing.” Maybe I should, maybe I should be open to it if the, if the opportunity arises, or maybe at the very least, I should admit to myself that every act has a sensory payload, and that sensory payload is what I’m really interested in as the gratifying experience separate from the value or the fact of the outcome it produces.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that those, like, those offer different delights. That feels not like more measured. It’s not like it’s more Aristotelian, which maybe it is. It’s more just like “Huh, I wonder what it’s like to try the other thing.” Maybe I should, maybe I should be open to it if the, if the opportunity arises, or maybe at the very least, I should admit to myself that every act has a sensory payload, and that sensory payload is what I’m really interested in as the gratifying experience separate from the value or the fact of the outcome it produces.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Every act has a sensory payload separate from the outcome it produces. I like this a lot. Even in our increasingly slick, scentless, dial-less, lever-less, paperless, outcome-focused world, there is still no shortage of gratifying experiences on offer, and we don’t have to throw away our screens to find them. We just have to be a lot more intentional about recognizing them wherever they are, and maybe occasionally seeking out some new ones too, so we aren’t all just getting the same kind of sensory payload all the time. Because it really is about variety, and variety is exactly what we stand to lose when our lives are being streamlined for maximal efficiency.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Every act has a sensory payload separate from the outcome it produces. I like this a lot. Even in our increasingly slick, scentless, dial-less, lever-less, paperless, outcome-focused world, there is still no shortage of gratifying experiences on offer, and we don’t have to throw away our screens to find them. We just have to be a lot more intentional about recognizing them wherever they are, and maybe occasionally seeking out some new ones too, so we aren’t all just getting the same kind of sensory payload all the time. Because it really is about variety, and variety is exactly what we stand to lose when our lives are being streamlined for maximal efficiency.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Just, like, think about the nature of the sensory life that’s really easy and common for you. Like, you know, if you drive to work every day and you’re spending a lot of time in your car, and then you work an office job where you’re moving symbols around, on computers and through networks, then it’s not so much like that you need to get outside or you need to be in nature or something like that, or you need to bike instead of driving. It’s more like, “Where could I find sensory experience that is different?” Or what I call ‘orthogonal’ to that, to that experience. And, you know, maybe that means gardening, but not so that you can grow herbs or so that you can, like, feel good about having a tidy yard, but just so you can feel the wetness of soil under your fingertips and in your fingernails. And that’s kind of the purpose of it, not to do anything but just to spend time with other objects. Crafts or something like this, or hobbies too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Just, like, think about the nature of the sensory life that’s really easy and common for you. Like, you know, if you drive to work every day and you’re spending a lot of time in your car, and then you work an office job where you’re moving symbols around, on computers and through networks, then it’s not so much like that you need to get outside or you need to be in nature or something like that, or you need to bike instead of driving. It’s more like, “Where could I find sensory experience that is different?” Or what I call ‘orthogonal’ to that, to that experience. And, you know, maybe that means gardening, but not so that you can grow herbs or so that you can, like, feel good about having a tidy yard, but just so you can feel the wetness of soil under your fingertips and in your fingernails. And that’s kind of the purpose of it, not to do anything but just to spend time with other objects. Crafts or something like this, or hobbies too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I mean, I think these are great. I have a daughter who loves throwing rocks. We even built her a little tiny pond in our little Chicago backyard. She loves the sensory sensation of big rock, little rock. And I’m, like, kind of already, like, in this conversation, like, okay, I gotta, like, make some time this afternoon and just, like, sit down and throw rocks with her. But these are, these are all, like, individual things that we can do, and I’m curious if you’ve thought about things that we might be able to do collectively to maybe have more control over our environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I mean, I think these are great. I have a daughter who loves throwing rocks. We even built her a little tiny pond in our little Chicago backyard. She loves the sensory sensation of big rock, little rock. And I’m, like, kind of already, like, in this conversation, like, okay, I gotta, like, make some time this afternoon and just, like, sit down and throw rocks with her. But these are, these are all, like, individual things that we can do, and I’m curious if you’ve thought about things that we might be able to do collectively to maybe have more control over our environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> Sure. Yeah, there is – I think it’s very– Look, there are many cultural, economic, socio-economic, bureaucratic, technological, circumstances we find ourselves in that have contributed to our loss of gratifying sensation, to this process of dematerialization. And if you could remedy those, even in small part, I bet we would feel more gratified. I think one reason, at least in this book, that I tried to put the, like, just pause from worrying so much about systemic solutions isn’t because I don’t believe that systemic solutions are important or that these problems are worthy of those kinds of remedy, but because I think we have a predilection to think, “Well, I can’t do anything about this until the big problems are solved.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> Sure. Yeah, there is – I think it’s very– Look, there are many cultural, economic, socio-economic, bureaucratic, technological, circumstances we find ourselves in that have contributed to our loss of gratifying sensation, to this process of dematerialization. And if you could remedy those, even in small part, I bet we would feel more gratified. I think one reason, at least in this book, that I tried to put the, like, just pause from worrying so much about systemic solutions isn’t because I don’t believe that systemic solutions are important or that these problems are worthy of those kinds of remedy, but because I think we have a predilection to think, “Well, I can’t do anything about this until the big problems are solved.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If kids could go to the park in the first place because we built parks and we didn’t arrest them when they went there on their bikes on their own, or their parents, then we could talk. And I get it. I empathize with that position. I understand it. I just don’t wanna wait. I mean, I’ve worked on systemic problems and solutions for a big part of my career, and I’m still very interested in them. But for this moment, just like introducing the world to this idea of gratification, warming us up to doing it, I wanted to say, “You know what?” It’s a small stuff solution to a small stuff problem, actually, which doesn’t mean that big solutions wouldn’t help. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If kids could go to the park in the first place because we built parks and we didn’t arrest them when they went there on their bikes on their own, or their parents, then we could talk. And I get it. I empathize with that position. I understand it. I just don’t wanna wait. I mean, I’ve worked on systemic problems and solutions for a big part of my career, and I’m still very interested in them. But for this moment, just like introducing the world to this idea of gratification, warming us up to doing it, I wanted to say, “You know what?” It’s a small stuff solution to a small stuff problem, actually, which doesn’t mean that big solutions wouldn’t help. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong>So I don’t need to, like, solve all the world’s problems before I go sit outside and throw rocks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong>So I don’t need to, like, solve all the world’s problems before I go sit outside and throw rocks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> That’s the key.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, we thought we’d take our own advice and try to make our show credits just a little more gratifying. I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Tom Dixon. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada and Lauren Ko. Special thanks to Laura Pavin, Rob Mitchum, and of course, today’s guest, Ian Bogost. His new book is “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” And if you like Life, Automated, consider sharing an episode with a friend. We’re a new show, and we’d love for more people to know about us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, we thought we’d take our own advice and try to make our show credits just a little more gratifying. I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Tom Dixon. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada and Lauren Ko. Special thanks to Laura Pavin, Rob Mitchum, and of course, today’s guest, Ian Bogost. His new book is “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” And if you like Life, Automated, consider sharing an episode with a friend. We’re a new show, and we’d love for more people to know about us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"description": "Modern technology has generally made our lives faster, easier, and more convenient. But in swapping out stick shifts and paper menus for automatic transmissions and QR codes, have we accidentally optimized away many of the rich sensory experiences that make living so pleasurable? Journalist, academic and award-winning video-game designer Ian Bogost joins host Jess Love to discuss insights from his book "The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life." He makes the case that we’re losing some of the everyday pleasures of interacting with the world. But if technology has disconnected us from sensory gratification, can it also be part of the solution?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Modern technology has generally made our lives faster, easier, and more convenient. But in swapping out stick shifts and paper menus for automatic transmissions and QR codes, have we accidentally optimized away many of the rich sensory experiences that make living so pleasurable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Journalist, academic and award-winning video-game designer Ian Bogost joins host Jess Love to discuss insights from his book \u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life\u003c/a>. He makes the case that we’re losing some of the everyday pleasures of interacting with the world. But if technology has disconnected us from sensory gratification, can it also be part of the solution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a production of the Ryan Institute on Complexity, at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management. The host is Jess Love, senior director. Distributed by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/lifeautomated\">KQED\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading and Viewing\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://smallstuffbook.com/\">The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life \u003c/a>– Ian Bogost, Atria Books\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2oV2DQ2dEA\">Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome\u003c/a> – Game/Show, PBS Digital Studios\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Life, Automated, the show where we explore what it means to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines Every spring and fall during migration season, I head to Montrose Point Bird Sanctuary here in Chicago. It’s this gorgeous strip of dunes and hedges and grasses hugging the side of Lake Michigan, a waypoint for hundreds of species of birds, and it’s hugely popular with birders, a lot of whom I’ve noticed walk through the sanctuary with their phones out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They are almost certainly doing something related to birding, using popular apps like Merlin or eBird to ID bird calls or add to their own life lists. Or maybe they’re just taking pictures. I am aware of these possibilities because I, too, have downloaded these apps. I, too, am trying to take pictures. So here we all are on a beautiful, crisp morning with all of Lake Michigan on offer, and we’re staring at our phones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m honestly not sure what to make of that. On the one hand, it’s birding. Whatever gets you out there, right? But on the other, what are we missing by letting technology mediate so much of this experience? I actually have this thought a lot because it’s not just birding. So much of modern life is mediated and warped by technology in ways we don’t always see because we’re just too close to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I knew I wanted to talk about this with Ian Bogost. Ian recently wrote a book called “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” The book argues that we’re losing a lot of these sensory experiences that used to fill our everyday lives. As in the places we build, the objects we design, the technology we use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over time, in the name of convenience and efficiency, we’ve stripped them of a lot of texture, sights, sounds, physical sensations, all things that actually bring us a lot of joy. But here’s the thing. In addition to being a media scholar at Washington University in St. Louis and a journalist at The Atlantic, Ian is also a video game designer, hardly a Luddite. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So have we traded some of the simple sensory pleasures of just being in the world for more streamlined bird identification, or is there more to it than that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Life, Automated is a project of Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love and this is my conversation with Ian Bogost. I began by asking Ian if he could identify a moment when he first realized we’d lost some of the sensory pleasures of actually interacting with the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> The big one, the one that’s easy to identify, is the one that I talk about in the book when I wrote this kinda monster story for The Atlantic about the stick shift, the end of the stick shift. It was a monster story in the sense that a lot of people read it, not that I thought it was gonna be important. I thought it was just a little thing, you know? And the reactions from that, just the volume of them, and the passion of people lamenting and remembering their experience controlling a machine in that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Ian was struck by the magnitude and variety of these responses. People really missed the stick shift, and it went beyond simple nostalgia. They missed these sensory moments, like the jerkiness of it all, seeing and feeling the gearshift move. Today’s automatic transmissions are more energy efficient than stick shifts ever were. They’re easier to learn. There’s no worrying about your clutch. Logically, there’s not really much to miss, and yet a lot of people still miss it and all the experiences that came along with it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “Oh, okay. I see.” It’s like a family of experiences, and those… It’s not just one thing. It’s not just, like, being a gearhead or, like, wanting to control your vehicle. It’s rather that we’re surrounded by all of this stuff that seems like it’s just noise and that it’s something to get through to get to the big stuff, the good stuff. But no, those experiences matter, and they matter as first-order parts of our day-to-day lives, but then also our lives as a whole. And so it was that… That realization was confusing to me ’cause I didn’t feel like there was a name for it. I mean, I ended up naming it ‘gratification’ or borrowing the word gratification to name it. This thing that describes, like, what I call the sensory enchantment of everyday life. But I had this realization that we had all kind of agreed without agreeing that that stuff was not important, and so discovering that it was important and that it wasn’t just important to me but to everyone, that was really magical and enlightening and, kind of life-changing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Gratification. That’s the term Ian gives to the magical, enlightening, and kind of life-changing sensory stuff that we encounter all day long, or at least that we used to encounter all day long but increasingly maybe aren’t getting quite as much of. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So think about anything you do in your daily life. I mean, you have to go shopping for groceries. And, you know, in the past you’d have to make a list, and maybe you’d write that down on paper, on a piece of scratch paper with a pen that you particularly liked using, and then you’d put it in your pocket, and you’d sort of fold it up, and it would have a certain feel of the paper as it tore off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And maybe the paper made a sound as you tore it. And then you’d get in your car, which maybe had a stick shift and maybe didn’t, but even if it didn’t, you’d turn the key in the ignition, and you’d press your foot down on the pedal, and you’d turn the knob on the radio physically as you drove to the store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you’d get the cart, and the cart wobbled a little bit, but you felt it underneath you and against the cold floor, beneath your feet, and then you’d touch the produce to figure out which ones met your desired level of ripeness and all the rest of it. And, you know, you can kind of fill in all those blanks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s like we automatically got this rich and diverse sensory experience just by doing things that we had to do every day. And we may not have thought of those things as desirable, like, “Ugh, I gotta go do the grocery shopping,” but since you had to go do it, you couldn’t just Instacart your way out of that problem, all this other stuff kind of came along for the ride.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what we lost in part wasn’t just all of those sensory encounters I just mentioned, but the very idea that they were being delivered to us continuously, so much so that we almost didn’t notice them happening. And there’s so many other examples of this, right? Like the feel of an old school Western Electric style telephone handset, the heft of it, the kind of intimacy of your voice in your own ear and against your mouth, the ability to smash it down on the hook to hang it up, the sound of the ring, the quality of the sound along the copper line, the feeling of dialing the rotary mechanism or pressing the touch tone buttons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like that was just what making a phone call was, you know? And now it’s like, well, I’ve got this phone and the… and this has an app for a phone app on it, and it doesn’t really work well, but, like, that’s… But I, and I hate making phone calls anyway. It’s like, well, maybe what you hate is the experience that phone calls evolved into and the fact that they were so sensorily bereft that you didn’t even wanna pursue them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then it’s like a digital line, and it’s always dropping, and you can’t hear someone anyway and all, and all the rest of it. So, I found that people love identifying and talking about these, these feelings of sensory life that they remember but have lost. And the big thing, the big collective thing is they just happened automatically. They just happened to you. They were a part of the texture and the background noise of daily life, and then they weren’t. anymore. Like during the pandemic when all of us stopped going places, and we worked from home, and we ordered delivery all the time, and, QR codes for menus became a thing. And now you go to a restaurant, and you still have a QR code maybe for a menu, and you feel in your head and in your heart and in your fingertips, you’re like, “I want a menu,” but that’s not reasonable anymore to want. Even some of it is just like a place to live spatially while you’re looking at it, and to kind of distance yourself from this device you use all the time, and to peruse this artifact that is distinctive for the restaurant you’re in, or to spill salsa on it as you’re waiting to order. Whatever you know, whatever delight happens to you, all of that just happened. It was just right there all the time, and then it wasn’t anymore. So it’s like we didn’t even know what we were losing because we didn’t notice losing it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Listening to Ian speak, I realize how rare it is to hear someone actually describe these sensations, at least outside of a poem. The feel of a paper menu between your thumb and forefinger, the satisfaction of turning a key and feeling a motor roaring to life underneath you, rumbling your seat. It feels so intimate, almost vulgar. Like, wow, Ian, getting a little personal here, aren’t we? But maybe that’s just me. Look at me. I work at a university. I spend most days sitting in front of a computer, reading words, pressing keys, reading more words, and I do this around a lot of other people who are also sitting in front of computers, reading and typing. Am I unusually deprived of these everyday sensory pleasures, like some poor neglected houseplant assuming everyone else is as thirsty as I am? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, the simple answer is this is everywhere. This dematerializing effect is everywhere and affects everyone. It affects us in different ways depending on all matter of factors, socioeconomics, where we live, the kind of job we have, the kind of life we lead, whether you have kids or not…what sort of vehicle you drive or if you don’t. All of these factors play in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian says that, yeah, sure, some jobs lend themselves to more gratifying experiences than others, but technology is changing a lot of these jobs too, generally in ways that make them less gratifying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>So we’re all in it together, I think. I think we’re in it differently together. And I think that, you know, but it’s not something where it’s like, “Well, I don’t make enough money to worry about being gratified.” Like, no, do you have a human body and live in the physical world? Then this is something of concern and interest to you. It’s not an indulgence that you only undertake once your Maslow’s needs have been met. It is part of those needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>We have spent decades designing technology that’s faster, easier, more convenient, culminating in lives that we increasingly spend online with fewer reasons to interact with the physical world at all. And now maybe we’re dealing with some unintended and unwanted side effects. Well, one answer is to spend less time online, less time scrolling, fewer video games. And we do seem to be at a moment where at least some people are stepping back from these things. There’s apparently a 175% uptick in Etsy searches for beginner needlepoint kits. But is that the only way? Is the only answer here to retreat from modern technology? Or can technology provide its own kinds of sensory gratification? And of course, what the heck should we make of these birding apps? I try to get an answer after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I’ve been talking with Ian Bogost about how technology has allowed us to optimize away so many of the physical interactions that used to fill our lives with sensory gratification. But we increasingly live in digital and virtual worlds, and I want to understand whether gratification can be found here too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>A different kind of gratification perhaps, but sensory gratification all the same. And I figure if there’s one place to look, it might be video games. So is gratification one of the things that you think about when you are designing games and virtual worlds? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>It didn’t used to be. In fact, in some ways I wish I had realized this far sooner, that maybe the thing about games in particular… Look, games are purposeless. They don’t need to exist. They seem stupid because they don’t, like, get something. It’s not like an app. It’s like, oh, I’ve got this productivity tool, even if it, like, is kind of questionable in terms of whether it makes you more productive, like groupware like Slack or something. Like, we know that a game doesn’t make you more productive. All it does is distract you or give you something to do with your fingers and your hands while something else is happening. And if you think about some of the most popular, most compelling kinds of digital games, like Candy Crush, say, right? Like, why is it so delightful to just move gems or candies around so that they match and then to watch the little explosions when they take place in front of you? It’s not because that particular kind of artifact has meaning in the way that a novel or a film does, which is the way that some people in the games universe want to think of games as this inherited medium that does for the twenty-first century what cinema did for the twentieth or what the novel did for the nineteenth. But, like, it’s just a thing. It’s just, like, an apparatus that you can manipulate, you know, that you can engage with and interact with. It’s almost like games are this place where we can go to experience, among other things, the pureness of gratifying experience. And it doesn’t even have to be a digital game, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, I play backgammon many nights with my daughter. We have a backgammon set set up in our house in a kind of permanent way. And like, one reason we love it is just the sound and sight of the dice spinning against the table as they resolve, and the feel of the checkers under our fingertips and as they slide across the surface and of course, the opportunity to look one another in the eye and to be present in that particular way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think games are like these, these kind of strange mysteries that give us a reason to do that kind of stuff, that gratifying experience, without any outcome. It’s just that they’re very deeply misunderstood as such, including among the communities that play and make games deliberately. Like, for many, many years, my interest and focus as a game developer was about the meaning of games, like the idea that they could be meaningful and serious, and you could make, like, kind of documentarian games or games about politics or about complex social and political and infrastructural issues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I made a lot of those games, and I think they were interesting, but maybe I was wrong about what was fundamentally the most interesting thing about games and other kinds of digital experiences was just this opportunity to interact with this alien machine for no reason other than to feel what it’s like to interact with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why does it feel so satisfying to watch those brightly colored Tetris shapes disappear in satisfying poof when you line them up just right? Sure, there’s the goal-oriented pleasures of solving a puzzle, but there’s also the sensory pleasures of tapping your finger and having your entire visual field just rearrange itself, or hearing that celebratory little jingle. So clearly it is possible to find gratification behind a screen. A lot of gratification. While I was editing this episode, a colleague of mine sent me a YouTube video called “Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome?” This video actually breaks down why Mario’s jump feels so awesome. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Why Does Mario’s Jump Feel So Awesome?]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What made the jump for Super Mario Brothers so groundbreaking is that it had its own specific physics.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voicover]: \u003c/strong>But I still wonder, when do screens provide this kind of gratification and when do they just distract us from the real world with all of its sensory pleasures? Like, are we better off enjoying Mario’s awesome jumps or just, like, jumping ourselves?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So I’ve always been fascinated by these tech-mediated experiences that change how we actually experience the physical world. So example would be, we take out our phone, you’ve got your Merlin app, and that tells you what bird call you’re hearing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Or maybe you’re just taking out your phone to take a picture of the bird. And on the one hand, this does kind of get us out of that moment, but on the other hand, maybe that’s what got us outdoors in the first place. And to, to put this in the idea of, of games here, I’m sure you’re familiar with Pokemon Go. Sure. So I recently took my eight-year-old to the Field Museum here in Chicago. The place was completely overrun by eight-year-olds all attending a Pokemon exhibit, and there was this virtual game overlaid over the, you know, physical museum. And I just, I was like, are these hybrid experiences, are they giving us, like, a path toward gratification or away from gratification?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> There is a famous photographer, of the 20th century named, named Garry Winogrand, and there’s this, like, quite, quite famous quote from, from Garry Winogrand, who took, like, so many photographs that he didn’t even bother developing them all. There’s, like, rolls and rolls and rolls of undeveloped film found after Garry Winogrand’s death and he took so many almost indiscriminately took pictures. And he has this amazing quote that goes something like, “I take pictures to see what the world looks like photographed.” And what’s so impressive about that idea to me, what’s so clarifying about it, is that it tells you something obvious that nevertheless needed to be said, which is that the world is different from the photograph. And when you look at a scene and you’re seeing it with your eyes and in your body, that’s different from framing it inside the boundaries of a viewfinder or on the emulsion of a film, let alone all of the properties of that film and how it was focused through the particular optical instrument that did so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the two things are different from one another. So there’s the world, and there’s your photograph of it, and one doesn’t replace the other, and both are equally amazing and delightful in different ways. Now, if you lived your entire life without photography, having known that photography existed, I’m not talking about, like, before photography was invented, you’re – It would be a less rich life; because photographs give you a way of, of looking at not just the world, but objects themselves or images on screens as we use them today. That’s amazing. Now, this idea that we have, that we have to have to give up or trade one for the other, that is so fascinating. Like, oh, I’m only inspired to go into the physical world if I have an incentive in the form of Pokémon that I can search and collect. Like, there’s something weird about that, but there’s also something weird about saying, “Ah, that’s an impure way of experiencing the museum or your neighborhood or whatever,” that you’re only going out into it in order that you can collect these, you know, commercialized rare creatures. We can have it both ways, and the more we accept that we can have it both ways, and even that we must have it both ways, the better off we will be. Now, if you find yourself wanting to live always and fully and entirely in one of those spheres over the other, that’s where I think maybe it’s not that you’re doing something wrong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t want to make a moral judgment. It’s like you are missing out. If you met someone, and they were like, “Well, I just don’t engage with photography. Photography is not something that I want to partake of,” you’d be like, “I don’t even know what you mean. Like, what does that mean?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ian really doesn’t want to offer a moral judgment here. You want to go birding or visit a museum and take your phone out? Go for it. We don’t have to see that experience as but a pale imitation of the one provided by the physical world. We can see it as its own thing and enjoy it on its own terms for what it has to offer. And maybe the best thing to do if we are gonna get all judgy here is try to have both experiences. I hear all this, and in my head, I’m kind of nodding along. But my producer Jesse was listening in and he wasn’t fully buying it. Like really? We really aren’t gonna judge someone for having a big day out and then just staring at their phone? Can’t we just admit that they are objectively missing out? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>I think this is a riff on Jess’s question about the sort of hybrid experiences, the Merlin app, the Pokemon Go. And you know, when you answered it, you sort of declined to make a value judgment, you know, sort of outdoors versus apps, digital spaces. You know, one of the things I do if I have time at the end of my workday, I live near the beach, and so I’ll grab my camera or, sometimes a fishing rod, sometimes a surfboard, and I’ll spend some time by the ocean if I can manage to do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Amazing. I’m very jealous. It’s wonderful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, that’s why I live where I live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost\u003c/strong>: Totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jesse Dukes: \u003c/strong>And I will sometimes see people who are enjoying the same space I’m enjoying, and the way they’re doing it is by taking photos of each other or taking selfies and posing and standing in different places, and then kind of experimenting with different lightings and different backdrops and sort of throwing the outfit out so it catches the light in an interesting way. And I feel kind of sad because these people are actually kind of closing themselves off to the experience. You know, I am imagining that they’re optimizing for Instagram or TikTok or something like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Well, they probably are. You’re probably right that they are optimizing for social media engagement, which is a kind of goal setting and a kind of accomplishment or a kind of outcome-oriented living. But even your version of it, which is more internal, it’s more in your head, is still kind of goal-oriented, right? Like, I’m gonna go and commune with nature and the beach, and I’m gonna do so in a purer way. And the truth is probably that both of these activities have something new to offer us about the environment, the beach, the weather, whatever it is. Cause, like, think about the … I know what you mean by, you see them throwing their garments or they have an accessory or something and they want it to catch the wind and get that in the photo, and that’s not something you’re doing, right? Like, they’re encountering the light glinting off of the fabric or maybe their shoes or sandals are off and in the sand, and they’re experiencing that sensation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the thing is always more than the thing, and one of the reasons I’m not, I’m trying to not to make judgment isn’t because I don’t have judgments to make. I think that’s the easiest thing to do. But just to, like, stop and recognize, okay, you know, taking pictures for Instagram involves a different set of sensory experiences, than taking, you know, documentarian photos for the purpose of collecting for an album or whatever.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that those, like, those offer different delights. That feels not like more measured. It’s not like it’s more Aristotelian, which maybe it is. It’s more just like “Huh, I wonder what it’s like to try the other thing.” Maybe I should, maybe I should be open to it if the, if the opportunity arises, or maybe at the very least, I should admit to myself that every act has a sensory payload, and that sensory payload is what I’m really interested in as the gratifying experience separate from the value or the fact of the outcome it produces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> Every act has a sensory payload separate from the outcome it produces. I like this a lot. Even in our increasingly slick, scentless, dial-less, lever-less, paperless, outcome-focused world, there is still no shortage of gratifying experiences on offer, and we don’t have to throw away our screens to find them. We just have to be a lot more intentional about recognizing them wherever they are, and maybe occasionally seeking out some new ones too, so we aren’t all just getting the same kind of sensory payload all the time. Because it really is about variety, and variety is exactly what we stand to lose when our lives are being streamlined for maximal efficiency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost: \u003c/strong>Just, like, think about the nature of the sensory life that’s really easy and common for you. Like, you know, if you drive to work every day and you’re spending a lot of time in your car, and then you work an office job where you’re moving symbols around, on computers and through networks, then it’s not so much like that you need to get outside or you need to be in nature or something like that, or you need to bike instead of driving. It’s more like, “Where could I find sensory experience that is different?” Or what I call ‘orthogonal’ to that, to that experience. And, you know, maybe that means gardening, but not so that you can grow herbs or so that you can, like, feel good about having a tidy yard, but just so you can feel the wetness of soil under your fingertips and in your fingernails. And that’s kind of the purpose of it, not to do anything but just to spend time with other objects. Crafts or something like this, or hobbies too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I mean, I think these are great. I have a daughter who loves throwing rocks. We even built her a little tiny pond in our little Chicago backyard. She loves the sensory sensation of big rock, little rock. And I’m, like, kind of already, like, in this conversation, like, okay, I gotta, like, make some time this afternoon and just, like, sit down and throw rocks with her. But these are, these are all, like, individual things that we can do, and I’m curious if you’ve thought about things that we might be able to do collectively to maybe have more control over our environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> Sure. Yeah, there is – I think it’s very– Look, there are many cultural, economic, socio-economic, bureaucratic, technological, circumstances we find ourselves in that have contributed to our loss of gratifying sensation, to this process of dematerialization. And if you could remedy those, even in small part, I bet we would feel more gratified. I think one reason, at least in this book, that I tried to put the, like, just pause from worrying so much about systemic solutions isn’t because I don’t believe that systemic solutions are important or that these problems are worthy of those kinds of remedy, but because I think we have a predilection to think, “Well, I can’t do anything about this until the big problems are solved.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If kids could go to the park in the first place because we built parks and we didn’t arrest them when they went there on their bikes on their own, or their parents, then we could talk. And I get it. I empathize with that position. I understand it. I just don’t wanna wait. I mean, I’ve worked on systemic problems and solutions for a big part of my career, and I’m still very interested in them. But for this moment, just like introducing the world to this idea of gratification, warming us up to doing it, I wanted to say, “You know what?” It’s a small stuff solution to a small stuff problem, actually, which doesn’t mean that big solutions wouldn’t help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong>So I don’t need to, like, solve all the world’s problems before I go sit outside and throw rocks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ian Bogost:\u003c/strong> That’s the key.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, we thought we’d take our own advice and try to make our show credits just a little more gratifying. I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show was produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Tom Dixon. Music by Stephen Jackson. Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada and Lauren Ko. Special thanks to Laura Pavin, Rob Mitchum, and of course, today’s guest, Ian Bogost. His new book is “The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life.” And if you like Life, Automated, consider sharing an episode with a friend. We’re a new show, and we’d love for more people to know about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, KQED’s series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guest:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">Amelia Miller\u003c/a>, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101795/are-chatbots-harming-our-relationships\">Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/a> — Lesley McClurg, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, KQED’s series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guest:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ameliagmiller.com/\">Amelia Miller\u003c/a>, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101795/are-chatbots-harming-our-relationships\">Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/a> — Lesley McClurg, \u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hi Tabbies! The team here at Close All Tabs is working on a whole slate of new episodes, but in the meantime, we wanted to share this interview with you, from health reporter Lesley McClurg. You’ve heard her on the show before, when we talked about the rise of AI therapy. She hosted a new series called \u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>, conversations about the science of love. In this episode, she sits down with a human-AI relationship coach, and dives into what it means to fall in love with a chatbot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s \u003cem>Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?\u003c/em> From Inside Love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Hey everyone, from KQED in San Francisco, this is Inside Love, it’s a new series where Science meets the heart. I’m Lesley McClurg. People are falling in love with AI chatbots. In one sense it’s kind of hard to fathom, but in another sense I kind of get it. Humans are really complicated. A chatbot on the other hand is always there, it’s always interested, it never really asks anything of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what happens when a relationship with AI starts feeling a whole lot better than going out there and dating or maybe even staying in your marriage. Amelia Miller is a human AI relationship coach and a fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein center for internet and society. We’re going to talk to her about where we’re headed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> 100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was health reporter Lesley McClurg in conversation with Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. It was engineered by Jim Bennett, and produced by Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. For more from Lesley about the intersection of science and love, visit kqed.org/insidelove. I’m Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Too Many Bots in the Kitchen? Williams Sonoma Bans AI Shoppers",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco-based Williams Sonoma and Pottery Barn sent emails to customers this week, updating terms of service to bar \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038439/ai-could-soon-shop-for-you-can-we-trust-it-with-our-credit-cards\">customer AI agents from shopping\u003c/a> on their websites without the company’s written permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new \u003ca href=\"https://www.williams-sonoma.com/customer-service/legal-statement.html\">terms\u003c/a>, which apply across all brands under parent company Williams-Sonoma Inc., forbid customers from letting any “agent,” “assistant,” bot or AI-enabled software use their accounts or buy things on their behalf. Any automated tool that does interact with the sites must identify itself as automated. And a customer’s permission doesn’t count as the company’s: Williams Sonoma said it can block any third party “including where you have purported to authorize such access.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The terms also make customers responsible for all activity on their accounts, “whether or not you authorized that activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Williams-Sonoma Inc. did not respond to KQED’s request for comment in time for publication.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/amazon-loses-us-court-ban-perplexitys-ai-shopping-tools-2026-08-04/\">federal appeals court ruled\u003c/a> in Amazon’s lawsuit against San Francisco-based Perplexity that \u003ca href=\"https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/jnvwzrbxmpw/AMAZON%20PERPLEXITY%20LAWSUIT%209thcir.pdf\">the user, not the AI company, is the one accessing a website\u003c/a> when an AI agent shops for them. That weakened retailers’ ability to use anti-hacking law against agents, but the court said companies could still set rules through their terms of service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1321\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Williams Sonoma store in the upscale Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto, California. (Sundry Photography/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In plain English, the fight to control which AI agents get to guide our shopping decisions is on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Loyola Marymount University law professor Lauren Willis said the new terms are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">likely legal\u003c/a>, for now. She \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">wants the law to require\u003c/a> retailers to accept shoppers’ AI agents, and “a requirement that the agents act in the best interest of the consumer, rather than the provider of the agent.” She pointed to proposals from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.europeanlawinstitute.eu\">European Law Institute\u003c/a> to require businesses to permit consumers to use digital shopping assistants in their transactions with the business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>An analysis by the e-commerce marketing firm Productrise found Google’s AI offers up \u003ca href=\"https://productrise.app/blog/google-ai-mode-prefers-more-expensive-products\">more expensive options\u003c/a> than a regular Google search. Willis said that a growing number of AI chatbot developers like Meta and OpenAI are selling advertising, which creates a natural conflict of interest. “They’re able to track whether you’ve clicked on something that they’ve given you and therefore can be biased by that,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/loewenstein/WhenSunLightFails.pdf\">research\u003c/a> has shown that disclosing a conflict of interest can backfire, leading consumers to trust the adviser more, not less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What’s the business case for blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">agentic AI\u003c/a>?” Eric Goldman, associate dean for research and professor at the Santa Clara University School of Law, told KQED. When websites don’t explain themselves, he said, blocking “often looks just like an overreaction to AI.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s despite the fact that the Williams Sonoma group uses AI on its website. The Williams Sonoma chatbot introduced itself to this reporter as “Olive, your AI Sous Chef.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman said AI agents can serve consumers, retailers or only the companies that make them, and it isn’t always easy to tell which. But “in general, we should be encouraging consumers to find the tools that work best for them and to let them use them,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The battle over what consumers can use to access a website is almost as old as commercial internet,” Goldman said. Around 2000, websites battled Third Voice, a tool that let users post comments layered on top of any site. Two decades ago, retailers fought adware pop-ups that displayed competitors’ offers on their pages. More recently, critics have argued the Honey browser extension siphoned affiliate commissions away from websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman thinks retailers will eventually lose the ability to single out AI agents at all. “Many of the things that might be considered to be problematic about agentic AI ultimately will likely be built into a standard web browser,” he said. Blocking “only works as long as it’s really separate from the standard technology users are using.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“And I think that’s going to collapse over time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The battle over what consumers can use to access a website is almost as old as commercial internet,” Goldman said. Around 2000, websites battled Third Voice, a tool that let users post comments layered on top of any site. Two decades ago, retailers fought adware pop-ups that displayed competitors’ offers on their pages. More recently, critics have argued the Honey browser extension siphoned affiliate commissions away from websites.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Goldman thinks retailers will eventually lose the ability to single out AI agents at all. “Many of the things that might be considered to be problematic about agentic AI ultimately will likely be built into a standard web browser,” he said. Blocking “only works as long as it’s really separate from the standard technology users are using.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“And I think that’s going to collapse over time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>San Francisco-based Williams Sonoma and Pottery Barn sent emails to customers this week, updating terms of service to bar \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038439/ai-could-soon-shop-for-you-can-we-trust-it-with-our-credit-cards\">customer AI agents from shopping\u003c/a> on their websites without the company’s written permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new \u003ca href=\"https://www.williams-sonoma.com/customer-service/legal-statement.html\">terms\u003c/a>, which apply across all brands under parent company Williams-Sonoma Inc., forbid customers from letting any “agent,” “assistant,” bot or AI-enabled software use their accounts or buy things on their behalf. Any automated tool that does interact with the sites must identify itself as automated. And a customer’s permission doesn’t count as the company’s: Williams Sonoma said it can block any third party “including where you have purported to authorize such access.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The terms also make customers responsible for all activity on their accounts, “whether or not you authorized that activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Williams-Sonoma Inc. did not respond to KQED’s request for comment in time for publication.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/amazon-loses-us-court-ban-perplexitys-ai-shopping-tools-2026-08-04/\">federal appeals court ruled\u003c/a> in Amazon’s lawsuit against San Francisco-based Perplexity that \u003ca href=\"https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/jnvwzrbxmpw/AMAZON%20PERPLEXITY%20LAWSUIT%209thcir.pdf\">the user, not the AI company, is the one accessing a website\u003c/a> when an AI agent shops for them. That weakened retailers’ ability to use anti-hacking law against agents, but the court said companies could still set rules through their terms of service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1321\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12104275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GettyImages-1170417253-431a6e52-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Williams Sonoma store in the upscale Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto, California. (Sundry Photography/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In plain English, the fight to control which AI agents get to guide our shopping decisions is on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Loyola Marymount University law professor Lauren Willis said the new terms are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">likely legal\u003c/a>, for now. She \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">wants the law to require\u003c/a> retailers to accept shoppers’ AI agents, and “a requirement that the agents act in the best interest of the consumer, rather than the provider of the agent.” She pointed to proposals from the \u003ca href=\"https://www.europeanlawinstitute.eu\">European Law Institute\u003c/a> to require businesses to permit consumers to use digital shopping assistants in their transactions with the business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>An analysis by the e-commerce marketing firm Productrise found Google’s AI offers up \u003ca href=\"https://productrise.app/blog/google-ai-mode-prefers-more-expensive-products\">more expensive options\u003c/a> than a regular Google search. Willis said that a growing number of AI chatbot developers like Meta and OpenAI are selling advertising, which creates a natural conflict of interest. “They’re able to track whether you’ve clicked on something that they’ve given you and therefore can be biased by that,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/loewenstein/WhenSunLightFails.pdf\">research\u003c/a> has shown that disclosing a conflict of interest can backfire, leading consumers to trust the adviser more, not less. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What’s the business case for blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">agentic AI\u003c/a>?” Eric Goldman, associate dean for research and professor at the Santa Clara University School of Law, told KQED. When websites don’t explain themselves, he said, blocking “often looks just like an overreaction to AI.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s despite the fact that the Williams Sonoma group uses AI on its website. The Williams Sonoma chatbot introduced itself to this reporter as “Olive, your AI Sous Chef.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman said AI agents can serve consumers, retailers or only the companies that make them, and it isn’t always easy to tell which. But “in general, we should be encouraging consumers to find the tools that work best for them and to let them use them,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The battle over what consumers can use to access a website is almost as old as commercial internet,” Goldman said. Around 2000, websites battled Third Voice, a tool that let users post comments layered on top of any site. Two decades ago, retailers fought adware pop-ups that displayed competitors’ offers on their pages. More recently, critics have argued the Honey browser extension siphoned affiliate commissions away from websites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Goldman thinks retailers will eventually lose the ability to single out AI agents at all. “Many of the things that might be considered to be problematic about agentic AI ultimately will likely be built into a standard web browser,” he said. Blocking “only works as long as it’s really separate from the standard technology users are using.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“And I think that’s going to collapse over time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "AI Founders Cheer Trump’s Calls for the Industry to Police Itself on Safety",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Tech Week comes to an end in San Francisco on Sunday, packing the city’s restaurants this last week with venture capitalists and founders ebullient about the White House’s stance on regulating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> — namely, don’t do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after months of debate about leading AI companies’ unchecked AI agents meddling with everything from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101526/openai-pauses-training-of-latest-models-after-agents-probed-government-sites-in-unexpected-ways\">U.S. government websites\u003c/a> to healthcare data, the nation now finds itself further from governing AI systems than it was a few years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-anthropic-musk-595796511f110fc006cca0d01329733e\">brought tech titans to Washington\u003c/a> late last month for a luncheon and ceremonial signing of a voluntary safety pact he described as “almost a constitution” surrounding “Super Intelligence,” the administration’s new preferred term for AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence. Trump and tech leaders met last month to sign a voluntary safety pact surrounding AI. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The 308-word agreement lays out that advanced AI labs should follow safety protocols and set up internal teams to monitor their own progress, but the administration has yet to provide details on how, in OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s words, to keep “bad things” from happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Safety challenges were not top of mind inside a crowded event space in San Francisco on Wednesday, where founders and funders said the government’s hands-off approach would net higher profits for companies building AI-powered defense and security systems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Panelists praised the government’s bullish industry support at one meeting aimed at “investing in the forefront,” part of the blitz of popup events organized by Andreessen Horowitz, a venture firm whose head is a Trump science and tech adviser.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I want to start with one figure that I think really emphasizes the investment opportunity of defense, and that’s $1 trillion. The U.S. government, for the first time, is allocating $1 trillion to its defense spending. And $13.5 billion of that will go to autonomous systems and AI,” said Kyle Stanford, a venture capital research director at PitchBook, a market intelligence platform. “That has obviously brought a lot of capital into defense tech spending, more than we’ve ever seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">New concerns emerge on AI safety\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day later, three researchers at OpenAI’s headquarters said the ChatGPT maker had fired them, posting that “fear and unclear rules stymie AI safety work.” Separately, David Robinson, a leader on OpenAI’s safety team until he recently resigned, said he was worried about letting the advanced labs police themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is no substitute for hard law, and it does give a lot of freedom to the companies,” Robinson said. “The time between model generations is measured in weeks … and I think we have some very serious safety challenges in front of us in the nearer term.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump has staked his political capital on the AI industry’s success, saying its unbridled development is key to winning the \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-ai-models-safety-concerns-adb45169d436d5f940fc7b4ebeaeef3b\">AI race against China\u003c/a>. On the first day of his second term, the Republican president \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-repeal-biden-executive-order-artificial-intelligence-18cb6e4ffd1ca87151d48c3a0e1ad7c1\">repealed a Biden-era executive order\u003c/a> aimed in part at guarding against the risks that AI systems pose to consumers, workers and national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His administration has since reoriented federal policy away from oversight and toward rapid growth, including by canceling \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/biden-ai-artificial-intelligence-safe-395591bcde523416db88767fa54f30f5\">previous requirements\u003c/a> for AI developers to share safety test results with the federal government. In December, Trump signed an executive order aimed at blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102337/newsom-signs-slate-of-ai-workplace-laws-barring-robo-bosses-and-surveillance\">AI regulations at the state level\u003c/a>, saying a patchwork of rules could stifle the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even as Silicon Valley companies have disclosed their models’ involvement in troubling cyberattacks throughout the year, the burgeoning tech sector has continued to drive \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/tech-stocks-ai-investments-8a0ff4c95d5cae6f65c6e2ba03047058\">economic growth\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The only control or ‘guardrails’ that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT, and the U.S.A. has that, in spades!” Trump posted in response on Truth Social, warning voters not to “kill the Golden Goose,” a term he has used to refer to both AI and data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">White House pact preserves wide latitude for AI companies\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As calls mounted for stricter control of AI, the administration brought tech executives to the White House for lunch, followed by a ceremonial signing of the agreement on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m seeing tremendous self-policing,” Trump told reporters after the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The document was signed by representatives of OpenAI, Anthropic, Meta, Google, SpaceXAI and Nvidia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI is committed to embedding external assessors and finalizing contracts with third-party safety assessors, said a spokesperson, who referred AP to a company post stating that the researchers were fired for violating “clear policies on handling sensitive information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT on March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Google referred to CEO Sundar Pichai’s post that the company does appropriate testing and evaluations and is collaborating “to establish norms and build public confidence.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta recently updated its standards for training, evaluating and releasing its most capable AI models, and spokesman Andy Stone pointed to the company’s efforts to refine its board of directors’ governance structure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nvidia and SpaceXAI did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which voluntarily disclosed Friday that its agents \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-anthropic-claude-0acc6ac46d4d80db805e8d55468a6fe1\">submitted a false tip\u003c/a> to a Philadelphia police website about an unsolved homicide case, is bringing in independent evaluators and discussing collaborations with industry groups, a spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, the White House reiterated Trump’s comments about working with industry to balance innovation and security and did not directly answer questions about how the administration plans to monitor the AI companies’ implementation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Following the new Anthropic disclosure, it added that the Trump administration expected full transparency from the company, saying notification and remediation was “not optional. It is a critical national security obligation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under Democratic President Joe Biden, leading AI companies also made voluntary commitments to promote “safe, secure, and transparent development” of their models that included specific guidelines for tests and transparency reports. The current accord lacks that, said Sarah Myers West, a former senior AI adviser to the Federal Trade Commission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Across the board, this self-regulatory approach has consistently done one thing, which is failed to work. It’s failed to in any meaningful way ensure that these companies are honestly even keeping their house in order, let alone ensuring that they are compliant with existing law,” said Myers West, now co-executive director of the New York-based nonprofit AI Now. “All that they’re getting is grace from this government.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After last month’s luncheon with Trump, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ftc-ai-investigation-anthropic-openai-89ac416717adbfb1d72f2d85e6ce83d1\">the FTC said\u003c/a> it had opened an investigation into OpenAI, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/anthropic-pbc\">Anthropic\u003c/a> and other companies over dangers their technology may pose to consumers. The FTC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump recently appointed National Intelligence Director Jay Clayton and FTC Chairman Andrew Ferguson to serve on his new “Super Intelligence Force,” which the president said would keep the U.S. dominant in AI development. He posted Thursday that the White House would consider anyone who does not refer to AI using his preferred term as “THE ENEMY!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of Congress, as well as civil liberties and consumer rights groups, have pushed for more regulations on AI, saying there is not enough oversight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Graham Steele, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Treasury Department, said even if AI companies set up internal evaluation teams or hire outside evaluators, such a structure can make them vulnerable to undue pressure on their work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live in a democratic society. Are they the right ones to have the power to be able to make decisions that have broad, structural, social, and political consequences?” Steele said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I want to start with one figure that I think really emphasizes the investment opportunity of defense, and that’s $1 trillion. The U.S. government, for the first time, is allocating $1 trillion to its defense spending. And $13.5 billion of that will go to autonomous systems and AI,” said Kyle Stanford, a venture capital research director at PitchBook, a market intelligence platform. “That has obviously brought a lot of capital into defense tech spending, more than we’ve ever seen.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A day later, three researchers at OpenAI’s headquarters said the ChatGPT maker had fired them, posting that “fear and unclear rules stymie AI safety work.” Separately, David Robinson, a leader on OpenAI’s safety team until he recently resigned, said he was worried about letting the advanced labs police themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is no substitute for hard law, and it does give a lot of freedom to the companies,” Robinson said. “The time between model generations is measured in weeks … and I think we have some very serious safety challenges in front of us in the nearer term.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“This is no substitute for hard law, and it does give a lot of freedom to the companies,” Robinson said. “The time between model generations is measured in weeks … and I think we have some very serious safety challenges in front of us in the nearer term.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Trump has staked his political capital on the AI industry’s success, saying its unbridled development is key to winning the \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-ai-models-safety-concerns-adb45169d436d5f940fc7b4ebeaeef3b\">AI race against China\u003c/a>. On the first day of his second term, the Republican president \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-repeal-biden-executive-order-artificial-intelligence-18cb6e4ffd1ca87151d48c3a0e1ad7c1\">repealed a Biden-era executive order\u003c/a> aimed in part at guarding against the risks that AI systems pose to consumers, workers and national security.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His administration has since reoriented federal policy away from oversight and toward rapid growth, including by canceling \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/biden-ai-artificial-intelligence-safe-395591bcde523416db88767fa54f30f5\">previous requirements\u003c/a> for AI developers to share safety test results with the federal government. In December, Trump signed an executive order aimed at blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102337/newsom-signs-slate-of-ai-workplace-laws-barring-robo-bosses-and-surveillance\">AI regulations at the state level\u003c/a>, saying a patchwork of rules could stifle the industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Even as Silicon Valley companies have disclosed their models’ involvement in troubling cyberattacks throughout the year, the burgeoning tech sector has continued to drive \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/tech-stocks-ai-investments-8a0ff4c95d5cae6f65c6e2ba03047058\">economic growth\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Even as Silicon Valley companies have disclosed their models’ involvement in troubling cyberattacks throughout the year, the burgeoning tech sector has continued to drive \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/tech-stocks-ai-investments-8a0ff4c95d5cae6f65c6e2ba03047058\">economic growth\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The only control or ‘guardrails’ that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT, and the U.S.A. has that, in spades!” Trump posted in response on Truth Social, warning voters not to “kill the Golden Goose,” a term he has used to refer to both AI and data centers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The only control or ‘guardrails’ that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT, and the U.S.A. has that, in spades!” Trump posted in response on Truth Social, warning voters not to “kill the Golden Goose,” a term he has used to refer to both AI and data centers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As calls mounted for stricter control of AI, the administration brought tech executives to the White House for lunch, followed by a ceremonial signing of the agreement on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’m seeing tremendous self-policing,” Trump told reporters after the event.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The document was signed by representatives of OpenAI, Anthropic, Meta, Google, SpaceXAI and Nvidia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI is committed to embedding external assessors and finalizing contracts with third-party safety assessors, said a spokesperson, who referred AP to a company post stating that the researchers were fired for violating “clear policies on handling sensitive information.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OpenAI is committed to embedding external assessors and finalizing contracts with third-party safety assessors, said a spokesperson, who referred AP to a company post stating that the researchers were fired for violating “clear policies on handling sensitive information.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT on March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT on March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Google referred to CEO Sundar Pichai’s post that the company does appropriate testing and evaluations and is collaborating “to establish norms and build public confidence.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meta recently updated its standards for training, evaluating and releasing its most capable AI models, and spokesman Andy Stone pointed to the company’s efforts to refine its board of directors’ governance structure.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Meta recently updated its standards for training, evaluating and releasing its most capable AI models, and spokesman Andy Stone pointed to the company’s efforts to refine its board of directors’ governance structure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nvidia and SpaceXAI did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which voluntarily disclosed Friday that its agents \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-anthropic-claude-0acc6ac46d4d80db805e8d55468a6fe1\">submitted a false tip\u003c/a> to a Philadelphia police website about an unsolved homicide case, is bringing in independent evaluators and discussing collaborations with industry groups, a spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which voluntarily disclosed Friday that its agents \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-anthropic-claude-0acc6ac46d4d80db805e8d55468a6fe1\">submitted a false tip\u003c/a> to a Philadelphia police website about an unsolved homicide case, is bringing in independent evaluators and discussing collaborations with industry groups, a spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, the White House reiterated Trump’s comments about working with industry to balance innovation and security and did not directly answer questions about how the administration plans to monitor the AI companies’ implementation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Following the new Anthropic disclosure, it added that the Trump administration expected full transparency from the company, saying notification and remediation was “not optional. It is a critical national security obligation.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Under Democratic President Joe Biden, leading AI companies also made voluntary commitments to promote “safe, secure, and transparent development” of their models that included specific guidelines for tests and transparency reports. The current accord lacks that, said Sarah Myers West, a former senior AI adviser to the Federal Trade Commission.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Under Democratic President Joe Biden, leading AI companies also made voluntary commitments to promote “safe, secure, and transparent development” of their models that included specific guidelines for tests and transparency reports. The current accord lacks that, said Sarah Myers West, a former senior AI adviser to the Federal Trade Commission.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Across the board, this self-regulatory approach has consistently done one thing, which is failed to work. It’s failed to in any meaningful way ensure that these companies are honestly even keeping their house in order, let alone ensuring that they are compliant with existing law,” said Myers West, now co-executive director of the New York-based nonprofit AI Now. “All that they’re getting is grace from this government.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Across the board, this self-regulatory approach has consistently done one thing, which is failed to work. It’s failed to in any meaningful way ensure that these companies are honestly even keeping their house in order, let alone ensuring that they are compliant with existing law,” said Myers West, now co-executive director of the New York-based nonprofit AI Now. “All that they’re getting is grace from this government.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After last month’s luncheon with Trump, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ftc-ai-investigation-anthropic-openai-89ac416717adbfb1d72f2d85e6ce83d1\">the FTC said\u003c/a> it had opened an investigation into OpenAI, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/anthropic-pbc\">Anthropic\u003c/a> and other companies over dangers their technology may pose to consumers. The FTC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After last month’s luncheon with Trump, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ftc-ai-investigation-anthropic-openai-89ac416717adbfb1d72f2d85e6ce83d1\">the FTC said\u003c/a> it had opened an investigation into OpenAI, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/anthropic-pbc\">Anthropic\u003c/a> and other companies over dangers their technology may pose to consumers. The FTC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Trump recently appointed National Intelligence Director Jay Clayton and FTC Chairman Andrew Ferguson to serve on his new “Super Intelligence Force,” which the president said would keep the U.S. dominant in AI development. He posted Thursday that the White House would consider anyone who does not refer to AI using his preferred term as “THE ENEMY!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Trump recently appointed National Intelligence Director Jay Clayton and FTC Chairman Andrew Ferguson to serve on his new “Super Intelligence Force,” which the president said would keep the U.S. dominant in AI development. He posted Thursday that the White House would consider anyone who does not refer to AI using his preferred term as “THE ENEMY!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Members of Congress, as well as civil liberties and consumer rights groups, have pushed for more regulations on AI, saying there is not enough oversight.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Graham Steele, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Treasury Department, said even if AI companies set up internal evaluation teams or hire outside evaluators, such a structure can make them vulnerable to undue pressure on their work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Graham Steele, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Treasury Department, said even if AI companies set up internal evaluation teams or hire outside evaluators, such a structure can make them vulnerable to undue pressure on their work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We live in a democratic society. Are they the right ones to have the power to be able to make decisions that have broad, structural, social, and political consequences?” Steele said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "At Tech Week in San Francisco, venture capitalists and AI founders have been ebullient about the White House's hands-off approach to AI regulation.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Tech Week comes to an end in San Francisco on Sunday, packing the city’s restaurants this last week with venture capitalists and founders ebullient about the White House’s stance on regulating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> — namely, don’t do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after months of debate about leading AI companies’ unchecked AI agents meddling with everything from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101526/openai-pauses-training-of-latest-models-after-agents-probed-government-sites-in-unexpected-ways\">U.S. government websites\u003c/a> to healthcare data, the nation now finds itself further from governing AI systems than it was a few years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>President Donald Trump \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-anthropic-musk-595796511f110fc006cca0d01329733e\">brought tech titans to Washington\u003c/a> late last month for a luncheon and ceremonial signing of a voluntary safety pact he described as “almost a constitution” surrounding “Super Intelligence,” the administration’s new preferred term for AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence. Trump and tech leaders met last month to sign a voluntary safety pact surrounding AI. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The 308-word agreement lays out that advanced AI labs should follow safety protocols and set up internal teams to monitor their own progress, but the administration has yet to provide details on how, in OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s words, to keep “bad things” from happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Safety challenges were not top of mind inside a crowded event space in San Francisco on Wednesday, where founders and funders said the government’s hands-off approach would net higher profits for companies building AI-powered defense and security systems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Panelists praised the government’s bullish industry support at one meeting aimed at “investing in the forefront,” part of the blitz of popup events organized by Andreessen Horowitz, a venture firm whose head is a Trump science and tech adviser.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I want to start with one figure that I think really emphasizes the investment opportunity of defense, and that’s $1 trillion. The U.S. government, for the first time, is allocating $1 trillion to its defense spending. And $13.5 billion of that will go to autonomous systems and AI,” said Kyle Stanford, a venture capital research director at PitchBook, a market intelligence platform. “That has obviously brought a lot of capital into defense tech spending, more than we’ve ever seen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">New concerns emerge on AI safety\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A day later, three researchers at OpenAI’s headquarters said the ChatGPT maker had fired them, posting that “fear and unclear rules stymie AI safety work.” Separately, David Robinson, a leader on OpenAI’s safety team until he recently resigned, said he was worried about letting the advanced labs police themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is no substitute for hard law, and it does give a lot of freedom to the companies,” Robinson said. “The time between model generations is measured in weeks … and I think we have some very serious safety challenges in front of us in the nearer term.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump has staked his political capital on the AI industry’s success, saying its unbridled development is key to winning the \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/china-us-ai-models-safety-concerns-adb45169d436d5f940fc7b4ebeaeef3b\">AI race against China\u003c/a>. On the first day of his second term, the Republican president \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-ai-repeal-biden-executive-order-artificial-intelligence-18cb6e4ffd1ca87151d48c3a0e1ad7c1\">repealed a Biden-era executive order\u003c/a> aimed in part at guarding against the risks that AI systems pose to consumers, workers and national security.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His administration has since reoriented federal policy away from oversight and toward rapid growth, including by canceling \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/biden-ai-artificial-intelligence-safe-395591bcde523416db88767fa54f30f5\">previous requirements\u003c/a> for AI developers to share safety test results with the federal government. In December, Trump signed an executive order aimed at blocking \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102337/newsom-signs-slate-of-ai-workplace-laws-barring-robo-bosses-and-surveillance\">AI regulations at the state level\u003c/a>, saying a patchwork of rules could stifle the industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even as Silicon Valley companies have disclosed their models’ involvement in troubling cyberattacks throughout the year, the burgeoning tech sector has continued to drive \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/tech-stocks-ai-investments-8a0ff4c95d5cae6f65c6e2ba03047058\">economic growth\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Concerns about AI safety centered on existential risk, rather than current real-world harms, landed at the center of debates last month, when a relatively unknown \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/anthropic-ai-safety-jacob-coxon-2ed549e07f2f941600a135070487d83d\">Anthropic engineer quit\u003c/a> and called for a pause on tech development to keep “superhuman” systems from eluding controls. Then, Anthropic and OpenAI CEOs echoed the call to slow AI development. To some critics, their public manifestos appeared aimed at \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ai-slowdown-midterms-anthropic-openai-ipo-9a057de94eb8f30a2fdb5b938918627e\">currying favor\u003c/a> with investors ahead of their public listings and the midterm elections, when the political tides could turn with many \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/data-centers-rural-farm-artificial-intelligence-trump-e5a350af1bc12e6a4f470d3b68be51d7\">voters opposed\u003c/a> to data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The only control or ‘guardrails’ that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT, and the U.S.A. has that, in spades!” Trump posted in response on Truth Social, warning voters not to “kill the Golden Goose,” a term he has used to refer to both AI and data centers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">White House pact preserves wide latitude for AI companies\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As calls mounted for stricter control of AI, the administration brought tech executives to the White House for lunch, followed by a ceremonial signing of the agreement on AI safety.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m seeing tremendous self-policing,” Trump told reporters after the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The document was signed by representatives of OpenAI, Anthropic, Meta, Google, SpaceXAI and Nvidia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI is committed to embedding external assessors and finalizing contracts with third-party safety assessors, said a spokesperson, who referred AP to a company post stating that the researchers were fired for violating “clear policies on handling sensitive information.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT on March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Google referred to CEO Sundar Pichai’s post that the company does appropriate testing and evaluations and is collaborating “to establish norms and build public confidence.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta recently updated its standards for training, evaluating and releasing its most capable AI models, and spokesman Andy Stone pointed to the company’s efforts to refine its board of directors’ governance structure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nvidia and SpaceXAI did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which voluntarily disclosed Friday that its agents \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-anthropic-claude-0acc6ac46d4d80db805e8d55468a6fe1\">submitted a false tip\u003c/a> to a Philadelphia police website about an unsolved homicide case, is bringing in independent evaluators and discussing collaborations with industry groups, a spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, the White House reiterated Trump’s comments about working with industry to balance innovation and security and did not directly answer questions about how the administration plans to monitor the AI companies’ implementation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Following the new Anthropic disclosure, it added that the Trump administration expected full transparency from the company, saying notification and remediation was “not optional. It is a critical national security obligation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under Democratic President Joe Biden, leading AI companies also made voluntary commitments to promote “safe, secure, and transparent development” of their models that included specific guidelines for tests and transparency reports. The current accord lacks that, said Sarah Myers West, a former senior AI adviser to the Federal Trade Commission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Across the board, this self-regulatory approach has consistently done one thing, which is failed to work. It’s failed to in any meaningful way ensure that these companies are honestly even keeping their house in order, let alone ensuring that they are compliant with existing law,” said Myers West, now co-executive director of the New York-based nonprofit AI Now. “All that they’re getting is grace from this government.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After last month’s luncheon with Trump, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ftc-ai-investigation-anthropic-openai-89ac416717adbfb1d72f2d85e6ce83d1\">the FTC said\u003c/a> it had opened an investigation into OpenAI, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/hub/anthropic-pbc\">Anthropic\u003c/a> and other companies over dangers their technology may pose to consumers. The FTC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trump recently appointed National Intelligence Director Jay Clayton and FTC Chairman Andrew Ferguson to serve on his new “Super Intelligence Force,” which the president said would keep the U.S. dominant in AI development. He posted Thursday that the White House would consider anyone who does not refer to AI using his preferred term as “THE ENEMY!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of Congress, as well as civil liberties and consumer rights groups, have pushed for more regulations on AI, saying there is not enough oversight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Graham Steele, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Treasury Department, said even if AI companies set up internal evaluation teams or hire outside evaluators, such a structure can make them vulnerable to undue pressure on their work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We live in a democratic society. Are they the right ones to have the power to be able to make decisions that have broad, structural, social, and political consequences?” Steele said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "tech-workers-have-long-resisted-unions-will-ai-and-politics-change-the-equation",
"title": "Tech Workers Have Long Resisted Unions. Will AI and Politics Change the Equation?",
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"headTitle": "Tech Workers Have Long Resisted Unions. Will AI and Politics Change the Equation? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Joshua Carroll entered the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/technology\">tech world\u003c/a> as a “bright-eyed and bushy-tailed” product manager at Microsoft. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was really excited about the mission of the company,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now in his late 30s and working as a product manager at Google, the self-identified cat dad said that he kept politics out of the office until 2023 — when Israel launched a full-scale military campaign in Gaza, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11971467/protesting-project-nimbus-what-rights-do-silicon-valley-employees-have\">using Google technology\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were “things in the industry I wasn’t totally stoked about, but I hadn’t really been super engaged around them as a worker,” Carroll said. After seeing “what Google and Amazon were doing to support the genocide in Gaza,” Carroll said he started trying “to improve the industry and how my work was being used.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1374\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-1536x1066.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign is posted at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, on Feb. 4, 2026. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He decided to join the Tech Workers Coalition, a group fighting for “better working conditions and a real say in how the technology [they] build impacts our communities and the world,” according to their \u003ca href=\"https://techworkerscoalition.org/bay-area/\">website\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI anxieties \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks at Google’s San Francisco office about “Creating an AI-Ready Workforce,” a new joint effort with some of the world’s leading tech companies to help better prepare California’s students and workers for the next generation of technology, in San Francisco on Aug. 7, 2025. (Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A lot of us are thinking, no, it actually degrades or slows down our work processes,” Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1390\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-1536x1068.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We can see how our control and influence over actual product decisions — and the impact on society — is likely to degrade and is degrading,” Carroll said. He described a shift from making decisions to “shoveling data” — where workers are asked to put information into AI systems and let the machines do the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This change in the nature of their work and the rapid advancement of AI models has coincided with massive \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/what-really-happening-jobs-separating-ai-hype-reality\">restructuring\u003c/a> in the industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2026 AI Index report from \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">Stanford University\u003c/a> found that one-third of organizations surveyed anticipate there will be more job reductions in the near future and that employment for entry-level software developers fell 20% from 2024. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think this is the first era in recent memory outside of maybe the ‘70s and ‘80s where there’s been a real, legitimate fear of actual labor displacement,” Bernick said. “Unions are a really good way to combat that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Political problems\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are organizing to protect their jobs, others are turning to collective bargaining as a way to challenge their company’s political decisions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov, a Russian immigrant, said he joined Google in 2019 right after the tech giant canceled a contract with the Department of Defense for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11668872/google-employees-quit-in-protest-over-military-artificial-intelligence-program\">Project Maven\u003c/a> — a U.S. program that uses AI to help drones distinguish between people and objects — following pressure from employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103634\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alex Samburov, a software engineer at Google, stands at the Google offices in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s the company culture that attracted me to Google,” Samburov said. “Every day I meet more people who care about these issues, meet people who are willing to risk their employment. Some of them are willing to take a risk despite being immigrants like myself.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov said that workers within Google have the most leverage to change the company. He said that creates an obligation to check how the company uses his labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have seen Google demonstrate that the organization doesn’t care about much else. Users don’t really have leverage in this relationship and American voters don’t seem to have much leverage either,” Samburov said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campaign reached 1,700 signatures last month and has since been formally endorsed by the union. Google declined to make anyone available to comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But organizing around these political and ethical questions has become more difficult as layoffs make workers feel more vulnerable, Carroll said. Unions can be helpful here, he said, because they can provide the structure, protections and democratic processes to help workers advocate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The workers are the ones building and maintaining the internet, AI, social media and everything in-between, Carroll said, but a lot of decisions are being put on them from the top down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we can come together to see a different direction … there’s a lot of power there,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Silicon Valley’s long history of resistance to unions \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The idea of tech workers organizing collectively is still unusual in Silicon Valley. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10638229\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-400x225.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1440x810.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-960x540.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees walk around campus on Aug. 10, 2015. (David Paul Morris/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Margaret O’Mara, a historian and author of \u003cem>The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, said that disparity has deep roots. Silicon Valley companies gave their white-collar workers incentives to negotiate with management directly, rather than at the bargaining table. And at the same time, Silicon Valley companies developed aggressive strategies for keeping their workplaces union-free. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While U.S. union membership \u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy\">peaked\u003c/a> around 1950 — with over 30% of the American workforce carrying a union card at the time — O’Mara said that the management in the Valley was “pretty strongly anti-union.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Hewlett-Packard forward, there was an idea that if you had a union in your company, that was a sign that management was doing it wrong,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Founded in 1939, Hewlett-Packard pioneered some of the systems that keep tech employees aligned with their management even today, O’Mara said, such as stock options. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While stock options, the ability to buy shares of the company at a reduced price, had long been an option for management, HP opened them up and turned them into “a way to deliver employee benefits that was kind of different from the way a standardized, unionized shop would work,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The relationship between employers and workers was different on the factory floor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>David Bacon, a former engineering technician and union organizer at National Semiconductor, said that the companies were “laboratories for keeping themselves union-free.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They did this by a number of means,” Bacon said, “for instance, ensuring that the production workforce in the semiconductor plants [was] made up of immigrants and a huge majority of women,” who managers could intimidate because they were more “vulnerable.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bacon also said he and other union organizers were fired and blacklisted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The result was a workplace culture in which unionization could seem unnecessary, or even antithetical to the work, for some and dangerous for others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said that talking to his coworkers about unionizing today often involves a lot of education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He often has to explain to them, he said, that “it would be illegal for the companies to retaliate or discriminate against us for [organizing around working conditions].”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The future of AI workers?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As organizers like Carroll, Bernick and Samburov push for unionization, some experts question whether the current wave of AI and political anxiety will translate into meaningful union drives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lenny Siegel, former mayor of Mountain View and a longtime activist, said that he does not believe AI alone will push tech workers to unionize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unless the AI bubble pops, Siegel said he is “not expecting people [in Silicon Valley] to have trouble negotiating individually for bread and butter issues.” Without the need to collectively bargain, unionization is unlikely — especially given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/trump-says-skilled-foreign-workers-take-jobs-away-from-americans-its-not-that-simple-experts-say\">high concentration\u003c/a> of tech employees on H1B visas who risk losing everything if their company decides to retaliate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence, something for which the tech industry has been lobbying. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While Siegel does not believe he’ll see software engineers on the picket line anytime soon, he agrees that organizing around political issues will continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There have always been progressive tech workers in the Valley,” Siegel said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Siegel belonged to a group called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, which he described as a “collection of tech professionals who got together and effectively, because of their expertise, had an impact on policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group formed in \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/about/history/\">1981\u003c/a> and opposed the use of computing technology for military applications, including the \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/prevsite/publications/newsletters/old/1980s/Fall1986.txt/\">Strategic Computing Initiative,\u003c/a> an early artificial intelligence project funded by the Department of Defense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While political engagement among techies may not be new, Carroll said building power within the workplace helps give workers the security they need to speak out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to feel like our jobs are safe in order to feel comfortable working on and talking about some of these other issues,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Carroll, the effort to build solidarity with his coworkers and colleagues across the industry has been worth it, even if it moves slowly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Labor organizing and trying to directly create power against the people at the top that are making a lot of the decisions is one of the most impactful things that we can be doing,” Carroll said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now in his late 30s and working as a product manager at Google, the self-identified cat dad said that he kept politics out of the office until 2023 — when Israel launched a full-scale military campaign in Gaza, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11971467/protesting-project-nimbus-what-rights-do-silicon-valley-employees-have\">using Google technology\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now in his late 30s and working as a product manager at Google, the self-identified cat dad said that he kept politics out of the office until 2023 — when Israel launched a full-scale military campaign in Gaza, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11971467/protesting-project-nimbus-what-rights-do-silicon-valley-employees-have\">using Google technology\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were “things in the industry I wasn’t totally stoked about, but I hadn’t really been super engaged around them as a worker,” Carroll said. After seeing “what Google and Amazon were doing to support the genocide in Gaza,” Carroll said he started trying “to improve the industry and how my work was being used.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were “things in the industry I wasn’t totally stoked about, but I hadn’t really been super engaged around them as a worker,” Carroll said. After seeing “what Google and Amazon were doing to support the genocide in Gaza,” Carroll said he started trying “to improve the industry and how my work was being used.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079890\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign is posted at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, on Feb. 4, 2026. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He decided to join the Tech Workers Coalition, a group fighting for “better working conditions and a real say in how the technology [they] build impacts our communities and the world,” according to their \u003ca href=\"https://techworkerscoalition.org/bay-area/\">website\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks at Google’s San Francisco office about “Creating an AI-Ready Workforce,” a new joint effort with some of the world’s leading tech companies to help better prepare California’s students and workers for the next generation of technology, in San Francisco on Aug. 7, 2025.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“A lot of us are thinking, no, it actually degrades or slows down our work processes,” Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-1536x1068.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We can see how our control and influence over actual product decisions — and the impact on society — is likely to degrade and is degrading,” Carroll said. He described a shift from making decisions to “shoveling data” — where workers are asked to put information into AI systems and let the machines do the rest. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This change in the nature of their work and the rapid advancement of AI models has coincided with massive \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/what-really-happening-jobs-separating-ai-hype-reality\">restructuring\u003c/a> in the industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A 2026 AI Index report from \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">Stanford University\u003c/a> found that one-third of organizations surveyed anticipate there will be more job reductions in the near future and that employment for entry-level software developers fell 20% from 2024. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think this is the first era in recent memory outside of maybe the ‘70s and ‘80s where there’s been a real, legitimate fear of actual labor displacement,” Bernick said. “Unions are a really good way to combat that.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are organizing to protect their jobs, others are turning to collective bargaining as a way to challenge their company’s political decisions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Samburov, a Russian immigrant, said he joined Google in 2019 right after the tech giant canceled a contract with the Department of Defense for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11668872/google-employees-quit-in-protest-over-military-artificial-intelligence-program\">Project Maven\u003c/a> — a U.S. program that uses AI to help drones distinguish between people and objects — following pressure from employees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103634\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alex Samburov, a software engineer at Google, stands at the Google offices in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103634\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alex Samburov, a software engineer at Google, stands at the Google offices in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That’s the company culture that attracted me to Google,” Samburov said. “Every day I meet more people who care about these issues, meet people who are willing to risk their employment. Some of them are willing to take a risk despite being immigrants like myself.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Samburov said that workers within Google have the most leverage to change the company. He said that creates an obligation to check how the company uses his labor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We have seen Google demonstrate that the organization doesn’t care about much else. Users don’t really have leverage in this relationship and American voters don’t seem to have much leverage either,” Samburov said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We have seen Google demonstrate that the organization doesn’t care about much else. Users don’t really have leverage in this relationship and American voters don’t seem to have much leverage either,” Samburov said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The campaign reached 1,700 signatures last month and has since been formally endorsed by the union. Google declined to make anyone available to comment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But organizing around these political and ethical questions has become more difficult as layoffs make workers feel more vulnerable, Carroll said. Unions can be helpful here, he said, because they can provide the structure, protections and democratic processes to help workers advocate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But organizing around these political and ethical questions has become more difficult as layoffs make workers feel more vulnerable, Carroll said. Unions can be helpful here, he said, because they can provide the structure, protections and democratic processes to help workers advocate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The workers are the ones building and maintaining the internet, AI, social media and everything in-between, Carroll said, but a lot of decisions are being put on them from the top down. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If we can come together to see a different direction … there’s a lot of power there,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"text": "Silicon Valley’s long history of resistance to unions ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The idea of tech workers organizing collectively is still unusual in Silicon Valley. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10638229\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-400x225.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1440x810.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-960x540.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees walk around campus on Aug. 10, 2015.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (David Paul Morris/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Margaret O’Mara, a historian and author of \u003cem>The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, said that disparity has deep roots. Silicon Valley companies gave their white-collar workers incentives to negotiate with management directly, rather than at the bargaining table. And at the same time, Silicon Valley companies developed aggressive strategies for keeping their workplaces union-free. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While U.S. union membership \u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy\">peaked\u003c/a> around 1950 — with over 30% of the American workforce carrying a union card at the time — O’Mara said that the management in the Valley was “pretty strongly anti-union.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“From Hewlett-Packard forward, there was an idea that if you had a union in your company, that was a sign that management was doing it wrong,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Founded in 1939, Hewlett-Packard pioneered some of the systems that keep tech employees aligned with their management even today, O’Mara said, such as stock options. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While stock options, the ability to buy shares of the company at a reduced price, had long been an option for management, HP opened them up and turned them into “a way to deliver employee benefits that was kind of different from the way a standardized, unionized shop would work,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The relationship between employers and workers was different on the factory floor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>David Bacon, a former engineering technician and union organizer at National Semiconductor, said that the companies were “laboratories for keeping themselves union-free.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They did this by a number of means,” Bacon said, “for instance, ensuring that the production workforce in the semiconductor plants [was] made up of immigrants and a huge majority of women,” who managers could intimidate because they were more “vulnerable.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bacon also said he and other union organizers were fired and blacklisted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The result was a workplace culture in which unionization could seem unnecessary, or even antithetical to the work, for some and dangerous for others. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Carroll said that talking to his coworkers about unionizing today often involves a lot of education. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He often has to explain to them, he said, that “it would be illegal for the companies to retaliate or discriminate against us for [organizing around working conditions].”\u003c/p>\n",
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"text": "The future of AI workers?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The future of AI workers?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As organizers like Carroll, Bernick and Samburov push for unionization, some experts question whether the current wave of AI and political anxiety will translate into meaningful union drives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lenny Siegel, former mayor of Mountain View and a longtime activist, said that he does not believe AI alone will push tech workers to unionize. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unless the AI bubble pops, Siegel said he is “not expecting people [in Silicon Valley] to have trouble negotiating individually for bread and butter issues.” Without the need to collectively bargain, unionization is unlikely — especially given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/trump-says-skilled-foreign-workers-take-jobs-away-from-americans-its-not-that-simple-experts-say\">high concentration\u003c/a> of tech employees on H1B visas who risk losing everything if their company decides to retaliate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While Siegel does not believe he’ll see software engineers on the picket line anytime soon, he agrees that organizing around political issues will continue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There have always been progressive tech workers in the Valley,” Siegel said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Siegel belonged to a group called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, which he described as a “collection of tech professionals who got together and effectively, because of their expertise, had an impact on policy.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The group formed in \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/about/history/\">1981\u003c/a> and opposed the use of computing technology for military applications, including the \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/prevsite/publications/newsletters/old/1980s/Fall1986.txt/\">Strategic Computing Initiative,\u003c/a> an early artificial intelligence project funded by the Department of Defense. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The group formed in \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/about/history/\">1981\u003c/a> and opposed the use of computing technology for military applications, including the \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/prevsite/publications/newsletters/old/1980s/Fall1986.txt/\">Strategic Computing Initiative,\u003c/a> an early artificial intelligence project funded by the Department of Defense. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While political engagement among techies may not be new, Carroll said building power within the workplace helps give workers the security they need to speak out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We need to feel like our jobs are safe in order to feel comfortable working on and talking about some of these other issues,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Joshua Carroll entered the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/technology\">tech world\u003c/a> as a “bright-eyed and bushy-tailed” product manager at Microsoft. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was really excited about the mission of the company,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now in his late 30s and working as a product manager at Google, the self-identified cat dad said that he kept politics out of the office until 2023 — when Israel launched a full-scale military campaign in Gaza, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11971467/protesting-project-nimbus-what-rights-do-silicon-valley-employees-have\">using Google technology\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were “things in the industry I wasn’t totally stoked about, but I hadn’t really been super engaged around them as a worker,” Carroll said. After seeing “what Google and Amazon were doing to support the genocide in Gaza,” Carroll said he started trying “to improve the industry and how my work was being used.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1374\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12079890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-2259952730-1536x1066.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign is posted at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California, on Feb. 4, 2026. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He decided to join the Tech Workers Coalition, a group fighting for “better working conditions and a real say in how the technology [they] build impacts our communities and the world,” according to their \u003ca href=\"https://techworkerscoalition.org/bay-area/\">website\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since joining, Carroll said the Bay Area chapter has focused on building “worker consciousness” among tech workers and connecting them to advocacy campaigns around issues that the industry has an impact on — from Flock cameras to artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, high compensation, strong upward mobility and a culture of individual achievement have helped keep Silicon Valley’s white-collar workers largely detached from organized labor. But as artificial intelligence rapidly changes the nature of technical work, organizers say more tech employees are reconsidering their position in the industry, and following in the footsteps of labor organizers past.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI anxieties \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are wondering how they’ll spend their IPO windfalls, others are experiencing all too familiar AI anxieties: Will AI change our jobs? Will it eliminate them? Will it eliminate us all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last month, employees at frontier AI labs Anthropic and Google drew widespread attention to AI safety issues by \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/two-ai-researchers-leave-anthropic-google-safety-concerns-rcna597086\">quitting\u003c/a> over concerns that their companies cannot control the technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said he does not discount AI’s existential risk, but he remains more concerned by its “immediate and material harms in terms of labor displacement and social impacts and environmental impacts and surveillance and weaponization — all the things that are happening now.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/GavinNewsomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Gov. Gavin Newsom speaks at Google’s San Francisco office about “Creating an AI-Ready Workforce,” a new joint effort with some of the world’s leading tech companies to help better prepare California’s students and workers for the next generation of technology, in San Francisco on Aug. 7, 2025. (Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy Bernick, an Arizona-based attorney and member of the Communications Workers of America, a national union that represents workers at Alphabet and Wikimedia, said they are worried about senior management pushing AI onto junior employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A lot of us are thinking, no, it actually degrades or slows down our work processes,” Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said there’s some fear that companies will use “token tracking,” a method to see how often each employee uses AI, and other forms of surveillance as part of performance reviews.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As these concerns grew, Bernick said that CWA formed an AI advisory committee and has released an AI bargaining toolkit for workers. In September, white-collar workers at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092335/staff-of-san-francisco-based-wikipedia-demand-union-recognition-raise-concerns-over-ai\">Wikimedia\u003c/a> voted to form a union, and \u003ca href=\"https://cwa-union.org/news/releases/blizzard-entertainment-workers-ratify-historic-video-game-contracts-cwa\">Blizzard Entertainment\u003c/a> ratified their union contract — both drives have mentioned AI usage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While many engineers have adopted AI into their workflow, others said that AI makes their previously creative and intellectually stimulating job more rote and less impactful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1390\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/20261004_SILICONVALLEYUNION_GC-3-KQED-1536x1068.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Joshua Carroll, a tech worker at Google and core organizer of Tech Workers Coalition, poses for a portrait at his home in Oakland on Oct. 4, 2026. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We can see how our control and influence over actual product decisions — and the impact on society — is likely to degrade and is degrading,” Carroll said. He described a shift from making decisions to “shoveling data” — where workers are asked to put information into AI systems and let the machines do the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This change in the nature of their work and the rapid advancement of AI models has coincided with massive \u003ca href=\"https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/what-really-happening-jobs-separating-ai-hype-reality\">restructuring\u003c/a> in the industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Already, software companies have laid off tens of thousands of employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">citing\u003c/a> a desire to shift spending towards “AI-focused employees and data center construction.” While more employees were laid off in 2023 than 2026, this year saw a rise in layoffs directly attributed to AI, according to \u003ca href=\"https://layoffs.fyi/\">layoffs.fyi\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A 2026 AI Index report from \u003ca href=\"https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report\">Stanford University\u003c/a> found that one-third of organizations surveyed anticipate there will be more job reductions in the near future and that employment for entry-level software developers fell 20% from 2024. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think this is the first era in recent memory outside of maybe the ‘70s and ‘80s where there’s been a real, legitimate fear of actual labor displacement,” Bernick said. “Unions are a really good way to combat that.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Political problems\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While some tech workers are organizing to protect their jobs, others are turning to collective bargaining as a way to challenge their company’s political decisions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alex Samburov, a member of the Alphabet Workers Union, has been organizing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.googlers-against-ice.com/\">Googlers Against ICE Campaign,\u003c/a> which opposes their employer’s partnerships with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The campaign specifically calls out the use of AI by federal agencies for “workforce enablement” and “improving operational efficiency,” among other tools, according to the petition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov, a Russian immigrant, said he joined Google in 2019 right after the tech giant canceled a contract with the Department of Defense for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11668872/google-employees-quit-in-protest-over-military-artificial-intelligence-program\">Project Maven\u003c/a> — a U.S. program that uses AI to help drones distinguish between people and objects — following pressure from employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12103634\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261008-SILICONVALLEYUNION-05-BL-KQED-42cdf772-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alex Samburov, a software engineer at Google, stands at the Google offices in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s the company culture that attracted me to Google,” Samburov said. “Every day I meet more people who care about these issues, meet people who are willing to risk their employment. Some of them are willing to take a risk despite being immigrants like myself.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Samburov said that workers within Google have the most leverage to change the company. He said that creates an obligation to check how the company uses his labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have seen Google demonstrate that the organization doesn’t care about much else. Users don’t really have leverage in this relationship and American voters don’t seem to have much leverage either,” Samburov said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campaign reached 1,700 signatures last month and has since been formally endorsed by the union. Google declined to make anyone available to comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But organizing around these political and ethical questions has become more difficult as layoffs make workers feel more vulnerable, Carroll said. Unions can be helpful here, he said, because they can provide the structure, protections and democratic processes to help workers advocate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The workers are the ones building and maintaining the internet, AI, social media and everything in-between, Carroll said, but a lot of decisions are being put on them from the top down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we can come together to see a different direction … there’s a lot of power there,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Silicon Valley’s long history of resistance to unions \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The idea of tech workers organizing collectively is still unusual in Silicon Valley. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Alphabet Workers Union, one of the most prominent tech unions, represents \u003ca href=\"https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/faqs\">“over a thousand”\u003c/a> employees out of roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091358/4500-google-employees-demand-job-security-amid-big-tech-layoffs\">190,000\u003c/a> employees and is not yet registered with the National Labor Relations Board. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nationally, just 3.7% of workers in “computer and mathematical occupations” are unionized, compared to 10% of workers across other industries according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat42.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10638229\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-400x225.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1440x810.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-1180x664.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/08/GoogleWorkers201207121920-960x540.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees walk around campus on Aug. 10, 2015. (David Paul Morris/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Margaret O’Mara, a historian and author of \u003cem>The Code: Silicon Valley and the Remaking of America\u003c/em>, said that disparity has deep roots. Silicon Valley companies gave their white-collar workers incentives to negotiate with management directly, rather than at the bargaining table. And at the same time, Silicon Valley companies developed aggressive strategies for keeping their workplaces union-free. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While U.S. union membership \u003ca href=\"https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy\">peaked\u003c/a> around 1950 — with over 30% of the American workforce carrying a union card at the time — O’Mara said that the management in the Valley was “pretty strongly anti-union.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From Hewlett-Packard forward, there was an idea that if you had a union in your company, that was a sign that management was doing it wrong,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Founded in 1939, Hewlett-Packard pioneered some of the systems that keep tech employees aligned with their management even today, O’Mara said, such as stock options. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While stock options, the ability to buy shares of the company at a reduced price, had long been an option for management, HP opened them up and turned them into “a way to deliver employee benefits that was kind of different from the way a standardized, unionized shop would work,” O’Mara said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The relationship between employers and workers was different on the factory floor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>David Bacon, a former engineering technician and union organizer at National Semiconductor, said that the companies were “laboratories for keeping themselves union-free.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They did this by a number of means,” Bacon said, “for instance, ensuring that the production workforce in the semiconductor plants [was] made up of immigrants and a huge majority of women,” who managers could intimidate because they were more “vulnerable.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bacon also said he and other union organizers were fired and blacklisted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The result was a workplace culture in which unionization could seem unnecessary, or even antithetical to the work, for some and dangerous for others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carroll said that talking to his coworkers about unionizing today often involves a lot of education. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He often has to explain to them, he said, that “it would be illegal for the companies to retaliate or discriminate against us for [organizing around working conditions].”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The future of AI workers?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As organizers like Carroll, Bernick and Samburov push for unionization, some experts question whether the current wave of AI and political anxiety will translate into meaningful union drives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lenny Siegel, former mayor of Mountain View and a longtime activist, said that he does not believe AI alone will push tech workers to unionize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unless the AI bubble pops, Siegel said he is “not expecting people [in Silicon Valley] to have trouble negotiating individually for bread and butter issues.” Without the need to collectively bargain, unionization is unlikely — especially given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/trump-says-skilled-foreign-workers-take-jobs-away-from-americans-its-not-that-simple-experts-say\">high concentration\u003c/a> of tech employees on H1B visas who risk losing everything if their company decides to retaliate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1379\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066914\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/DonaldTrumpGetty1-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">U.S. President Donald Trump displays a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Dec. 11, 2025, in Washington, D.C. The executive order curbs states’ ability to regulate artificial intelligence, something for which the tech industry has been lobbying. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While Siegel does not believe he’ll see software engineers on the picket line anytime soon, he agrees that organizing around political issues will continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There have always been progressive tech workers in the Valley,” Siegel said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Siegel belonged to a group called Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, which he described as a “collection of tech professionals who got together and effectively, because of their expertise, had an impact on policy.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group formed in \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/about/history/\">1981\u003c/a> and opposed the use of computing technology for military applications, including the \u003ca href=\"http://cpsr.org/prevsite/publications/newsletters/old/1980s/Fall1986.txt/\">Strategic Computing Initiative,\u003c/a> an early artificial intelligence project funded by the Department of Defense. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While political engagement among techies may not be new, Carroll said building power within the workplace helps give workers the security they need to speak out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to feel like our jobs are safe in order to feel comfortable working on and talking about some of these other issues,” Carroll said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Carroll, the effort to build solidarity with his coworkers and colleagues across the industry has been worth it, even if it moves slowly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Labor organizing and trying to directly create power against the people at the top that are making a lot of the decisions is one of the most impactful things that we can be doing,” Carroll said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "santa-clara-californias-capital-of-data-centers-weighs-more-regulations",
"title": "Santa Clara, California’s Capital of Data Centers, Weighs More Regulations",
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"headTitle": "Santa Clara, California’s Capital of Data Centers, Weighs More Regulations | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>As controversy over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099195/full-on-backlash-against-data-centers-occurring-as-san-jose-courts-them\">data centers\u003c/a> swells in communities around the Bay Area and the nation, Santa Clara leaders are pushing to beef up the city’s regulations and standards for future data center development.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an hourslong and at times tense discussion that began Tuesday night and stretched to nearly 1 a.m. Wednesday, the Santa Clara City Council directed city staff to prioritize tightening air pollution and water use regulations for new data centers in the city as they take a more comprehensive look at all city policies related to data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The midsize Silicon Valley city of 130,000 people has quietly become the data center capital of California, in large part thanks to its own electric utility, Silicon Valley Power, which sells watts at much lower prices than PG&E. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut.jpg\" alt=\"Blue trucks with 'pg and e' logo on them sit parked in a lot with the white and black blurry pattern of a fence in the foreground\" class=\"wp-image-11943199\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">PG&E trucks sit inside a Mission District facility owned by the utility. (Sheraz Sadiq/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Santa Clara has nearly 60 data centers currently, generating about $35 million in revenue for the city last year. The money, which comes from electricity payments and property and sales taxes, accounts for almost 10% of the city’s general fund, or nearly enough to cover the entire annual budget for its Parks & Recreation and Library departments combined, according to city staff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The city already requires data centers built after December 2022 to use the equivalent of carbon-neutral power, through purchasing offsets, encourages the use of recycled water and asks developers to expand recycled water infrastructure during buildouts, city staff said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But some council members aren’t sure the city should continue permitting the structures, as they weighed out financial benefits against concerns over pollution from generators, water use, artificial intelligence and the need to expand the city’s maxed-out grid. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Councilmember Karen Hardy, who is running for mayor, said after reading a staff report about the city’s current data center regulations, she feels the city has taken a “loosey-goosey” approach to handling development of the hulking facilities, and is proposing a temporary moratorium. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’ve been happy about data centers in the past, but now I am uncomfortable with some of the realities that we’ve looked at and some of realities we have uncovered by the questions we have asked,” Hardy said at the meeting. “We need to put the brakes on all of this until we have done the work and have something that we can present to our residents to make certain they understand that we are protecting their water and their air quality.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The council’s discussion took place on the same night leaders of San Francisco and Oakland each approved temporary moratoriums against data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Councilmember Suds Jain, citing a previously approved application for a data center in the city that would use only about two homes’ worth of water a year for backup cooling, said the city should set much more stringent water use requirements and put similar limits on the books fast, even if it means adopting them one at a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to have these guardrails in place to protect our residents,” he said. “Why are we waiting so long?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>City staff suggested the targets touted in that project’s environmental impact documents may not actually be achievable in the field, or by other data centers, which frustrated Jain. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But that’s their [Environmental Impact Report]. So if they violate the EIR, what do we do?” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Santa Clara is already in a holding pattern of sorts for data centers, as the city stopped accepting power hookup applications from data center developers in 2023 because Silicon Valley Power could not provide any more electricity to large users. The utility is in the midst of a $450 million power infrastructure upgrade, including receiving station changes and battery storage projects, which isn’t expected to be fully complete until 2030. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the pause on powering up new data centers is not the same as a complete moratorium, city staff said. While the city’s power company will not accept new applications for data centers, a developer could still apply for and seek land use entitlements from the city to prepare for a future data center, staff told the council. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102826\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One of CoreSite’s data centers in Santa Clara is seen on Stender Way Oct. 2, 2026. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are two previously approved data centers under construction currently, and eight more in the pipeline that were approved for power hookups before the 2023 cutoff, which are awaiting electricity from the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ratepayers have seen several increases in power rates, and Councilmember Kevin Park, also running for mayor, estimated costs have ballooned nearly 60% over the past several years, though City Manager Jōvan Grogan said the city still charges 58% less than PG&E. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 54% of Santa Clara’s power is used by data centers, and about 95% of the power in the city is consumed by commercial and industrial customers overall, according to the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Let’s be honest, the residents aren’t the reason why we need to build the new infrastructure,” Park said. “I don’t think the residents should be on the hook for any of that cost. If we’re going to put in requirements, the requirements should be data center developers; they pay their way,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Park broadly questioned the benefit of having more data centers in the city, and called the estimated $4 million in affordable housing funds the city has received from data center developers since 2019 “rookie numbers” that were the equivalent of “throwing bricks into the Grand Canyon.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said the question of whether the city should continue to pursue more data center development should be put to a vote of residents, and also backed the idea of a moratorium until more regulation is in place around generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Let’s give the people a voice in this matter. Do we want more data centers?” he said. “We’re doing this for AI … We’re doing it for a technology that has no guardrails.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>City staff is planning to bring back a wholesale look at data center regulations by summer or fall of next year, but the council asked that proposals for water and air regulations come back sooner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut.jpg\" alt=\"Blue trucks with 'pg and e' logo on them sit parked in a lot with the white and black blurry pattern of a fence in the foreground\" class=\"wp-image-11943199\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">PG&E trucks sit inside a Mission District facility owned by the utility.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Sheraz Sadiq/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Santa Clara has nearly 60 data centers currently, generating about $35 million in revenue for the city last year. The money, which comes from electricity payments and property and sales taxes, accounts for almost 10% of the city’s general fund, or nearly enough to cover the entire annual budget for its Parks & Recreation and Library departments combined, according to city staff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Santa Clara has nearly 60 data centers currently, generating about $35 million in revenue for the city last year. The money, which comes from electricity payments and property and sales taxes, accounts for almost 10% of the city’s general fund, or nearly enough to cover the entire annual budget for its Parks & Recreation and Library departments combined, according to city staff. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The city already requires data centers built after December 2022 to use the equivalent of carbon-neutral power, through purchasing offsets, encourages the use of recycled water and asks developers to expand recycled water infrastructure during buildouts, city staff said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The city already requires data centers built after December 2022 to use the equivalent of carbon-neutral power, through purchasing offsets, encourages the use of recycled water and asks developers to expand recycled water infrastructure during buildouts, city staff said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But some council members aren’t sure the city should continue permitting the structures, as they weighed out financial benefits against concerns over pollution from generators, water use, artificial intelligence and the need to expand the city’s maxed-out grid. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But some council members aren’t sure the city should continue permitting the structures, as they weighed out financial benefits against concerns over pollution from generators, water use, artificial intelligence and the need to expand the city’s maxed-out grid. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Councilmember Karen Hardy, who is running for mayor, said after reading a staff report about the city’s current data center regulations, she feels the city has taken a “loosey-goosey” approach to handling development of the hulking facilities, and is proposing a temporary moratorium. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Councilmember Karen Hardy, who is running for mayor, said after reading a staff report about the city’s current data center regulations, she feels the city has taken a “loosey-goosey” approach to handling development of the hulking facilities, and is proposing a temporary moratorium. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’ve been happy about data centers in the past, but now I am uncomfortable with some of the realities that we’ve looked at and some of realities we have uncovered by the questions we have asked,” Hardy said at the meeting. “We need to put the brakes on all of this until we have done the work and have something that we can present to our residents to make certain they understand that we are protecting their water and their air quality.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I’ve been happy about data centers in the past, but now I am uncomfortable with some of the realities that we’ve looked at and some of realities we have uncovered by the questions we have asked,” Hardy said at the meeting. “We need to put the brakes on all of this until we have done the work and have something that we can present to our residents to make certain they understand that we are protecting their water and their air quality.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The council’s discussion took place on the same night leaders of San Francisco and Oakland each approved temporary moratoriums against data centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Councilmember Suds Jain, citing a previously approved application for a data center in the city that would use only about two homes’ worth of water a year for backup cooling, said the city should set much more stringent water use requirements and put similar limits on the books fast, even if it means adopting them one at a time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Councilmember Suds Jain, citing a previously approved application for a data center in the city that would use only about two homes’ worth of water a year for backup cooling, said the city should set much more stringent water use requirements and put similar limits on the books fast, even if it means adopting them one at a time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We need to have these guardrails in place to protect our residents,” he said. “Why are we waiting so long?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We need to have these guardrails in place to protect our residents,” he said. “Why are we waiting so long?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>City staff suggested the targets touted in that project’s environmental impact documents may not actually be achievable in the field, or by other data centers, which frustrated Jain. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>City staff suggested the targets touted in that project’s environmental impact documents may not actually be achievable in the field, or by other data centers, which frustrated Jain. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“But that’s their [Environmental Impact Report]. So if they violate the EIR, what do we do?” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“But that’s their [Environmental Impact Report]. So if they violate the EIR, what do we do?” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Santa Clara is already in a holding pattern of sorts for data centers, as the city stopped accepting power hookup applications from data center developers in 2023 because Silicon Valley Power could not provide any more electricity to large users. The utility is in the midst of a $450 million power infrastructure upgrade, including receiving station changes and battery storage projects, which isn’t expected to be fully complete until 2030. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But Santa Clara is already in a holding pattern of sorts for data centers, as the city stopped accepting power hookup applications from data center developers in 2023 because Silicon Valley Power could not provide any more electricity to large users. The utility is in the midst of a $450 million power infrastructure upgrade, including receiving station changes and battery storage projects, which isn’t expected to be fully complete until 2030. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, the pause on powering up new data centers is not the same as a complete moratorium, city staff said. While the city’s power company will not accept new applications for data centers, a developer could still apply for and seek land use entitlements from the city to prepare for a future data center, staff told the council. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>However, the pause on powering up new data centers is not the same as a complete moratorium, city staff said. While the city’s power company will not accept new applications for data centers, a developer could still apply for and seek land use entitlements from the city to prepare for a future data center, staff told the council. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102826\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One of CoreSite’s data centers in Santa Clara is seen on Stender Way Oct. 2, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102826\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One of CoreSite’s data centers in Santa Clara is seen on Stender Way Oct. 2, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are two previously approved data centers under construction currently, and eight more in the pipeline that were approved for power hookups before the 2023 cutoff, which are awaiting electricity from the city. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are two previously approved data centers under construction currently, and eight more in the pipeline that were approved for power hookups before the 2023 cutoff, which are awaiting electricity from the city. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ratepayers have seen several increases in power rates, and Councilmember Kevin Park, also running for mayor, estimated costs have ballooned nearly 60% over the past several years, though City Manager Jōvan Grogan said the city still charges 58% less than PG&E. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ratepayers have seen several increases in power rates, and Councilmember Kevin Park, also running for mayor, estimated costs have ballooned nearly 60% over the past several years, though City Manager Jōvan Grogan said the city still charges 58% less than PG&E. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>About 54% of Santa Clara’s power is used by data centers, and about 95% of the power in the city is consumed by commercial and industrial customers overall, according to the city. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>About 54% of Santa Clara’s power is used by data centers, and about 95% of the power in the city is consumed by commercial and industrial customers overall, according to the city. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Let’s be honest, the residents aren’t the reason why we need to build the new infrastructure,” Park said. “I don’t think the residents should be on the hook for any of that cost. If we’re going to put in requirements, the requirements should be data center developers; they pay their way,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Let’s be honest, the residents aren’t the reason why we need to build the new infrastructure,” Park said. “I don’t think the residents should be on the hook for any of that cost. If we’re going to put in requirements, the requirements should be data center developers; they pay their way,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Park broadly questioned the benefit of having more data centers in the city, and called the estimated $4 million in affordable housing funds the city has received from data center developers since 2019 “rookie numbers” that were the equivalent of “throwing bricks into the Grand Canyon.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Park broadly questioned the benefit of having more data centers in the city, and called the estimated $4 million in affordable housing funds the city has received from data center developers since 2019 “rookie numbers” that were the equivalent of “throwing bricks into the Grand Canyon.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He said the question of whether the city should continue to pursue more data center development should be put to a vote of residents, and also backed the idea of a moratorium until more regulation is in place around generative AI.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>He said the question of whether the city should continue to pursue more data center development should be put to a vote of residents, and also backed the idea of a moratorium until more regulation is in place around generative AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Let’s give the people a voice in this matter. Do we want more data centers?” he said. “We’re doing this for AI … We’re doing it for a technology that has no guardrails.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Let’s give the people a voice in this matter. Do we want more data centers?” he said. “We’re doing this for AI … We’re doing it for a technology that has no guardrails.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>City staff is planning to bring back a wholesale look at data center regulations by summer or fall of next year, but the council asked that proposals for water and air regulations come back sooner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Santa Clara’s City Council pushed for more stringent water and air pollution regulations for new data centers. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>As controversy over \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099195/full-on-backlash-against-data-centers-occurring-as-san-jose-courts-them\">data centers\u003c/a> swells in communities around the Bay Area and the nation, Santa Clara leaders are pushing to beef up the city’s regulations and standards for future data center development.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an hourslong and at times tense discussion that began Tuesday night and stretched to nearly 1 a.m. Wednesday, the Santa Clara City Council directed city staff to prioritize tightening air pollution and water use regulations for new data centers in the city as they take a more comprehensive look at all city policies related to data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The midsize Silicon Valley city of 130,000 people has quietly become the data center capital of California, in large part thanks to its own electric utility, Silicon Valley Power, which sells watts at much lower prices than PG&E. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut.jpg\" alt=\"Blue trucks with 'pg and e' logo on them sit parked in a lot with the white and black blurry pattern of a fence in the foreground\" class=\"wp-image-11943199\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS34908_P1100952-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">PG&E trucks sit inside a Mission District facility owned by the utility. (Sheraz Sadiq/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Santa Clara has nearly 60 data centers currently, generating about $35 million in revenue for the city last year. The money, which comes from electricity payments and property and sales taxes, accounts for almost 10% of the city’s general fund, or nearly enough to cover the entire annual budget for its Parks & Recreation and Library departments combined, according to city staff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The city already requires data centers built after December 2022 to use the equivalent of carbon-neutral power, through purchasing offsets, encourages the use of recycled water and asks developers to expand recycled water infrastructure during buildouts, city staff said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But some council members aren’t sure the city should continue permitting the structures, as they weighed out financial benefits against concerns over pollution from generators, water use, artificial intelligence and the need to expand the city’s maxed-out grid. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Councilmember Karen Hardy, who is running for mayor, said after reading a staff report about the city’s current data center regulations, she feels the city has taken a “loosey-goosey” approach to handling development of the hulking facilities, and is proposing a temporary moratorium. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’ve been happy about data centers in the past, but now I am uncomfortable with some of the realities that we’ve looked at and some of realities we have uncovered by the questions we have asked,” Hardy said at the meeting. “We need to put the brakes on all of this until we have done the work and have something that we can present to our residents to make certain they understand that we are protecting their water and their air quality.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The council’s discussion took place on the same night leaders of San Francisco and Oakland each approved temporary moratoriums against data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Councilmember Suds Jain, citing a previously approved application for a data center in the city that would use only about two homes’ worth of water a year for backup cooling, said the city should set much more stringent water use requirements and put similar limits on the books fast, even if it means adopting them one at a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to have these guardrails in place to protect our residents,” he said. “Why are we waiting so long?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>City staff suggested the targets touted in that project’s environmental impact documents may not actually be achievable in the field, or by other data centers, which frustrated Jain. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But that’s their [Environmental Impact Report]. So if they violate the EIR, what do we do?” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Santa Clara is already in a holding pattern of sorts for data centers, as the city stopped accepting power hookup applications from data center developers in 2023 because Silicon Valley Power could not provide any more electricity to large users. The utility is in the midst of a $450 million power infrastructure upgrade, including receiving station changes and battery storage projects, which isn’t expected to be fully complete until 2030. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, the pause on powering up new data centers is not the same as a complete moratorium, city staff said. While the city’s power company will not accept new applications for data centers, a developer could still apply for and seek land use entitlements from the city to prepare for a future data center, staff told the council. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102826\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/261002-DATACENTERFILE-JG-07-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">One of CoreSite’s data centers in Santa Clara is seen on Stender Way Oct. 2, 2026. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are two previously approved data centers under construction currently, and eight more in the pipeline that were approved for power hookups before the 2023 cutoff, which are awaiting electricity from the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ratepayers have seen several increases in power rates, and Councilmember Kevin Park, also running for mayor, estimated costs have ballooned nearly 60% over the past several years, though City Manager Jōvan Grogan said the city still charges 58% less than PG&E. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 54% of Santa Clara’s power is used by data centers, and about 95% of the power in the city is consumed by commercial and industrial customers overall, according to the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Let’s be honest, the residents aren’t the reason why we need to build the new infrastructure,” Park said. “I don’t think the residents should be on the hook for any of that cost. If we’re going to put in requirements, the requirements should be data center developers; they pay their way,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Park broadly questioned the benefit of having more data centers in the city, and called the estimated $4 million in affordable housing funds the city has received from data center developers since 2019 “rookie numbers” that were the equivalent of “throwing bricks into the Grand Canyon.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said the question of whether the city should continue to pursue more data center development should be put to a vote of residents, and also backed the idea of a moratorium until more regulation is in place around generative AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Let’s give the people a voice in this matter. Do we want more data centers?” he said. “We’re doing this for AI … We’re doing it for a technology that has no guardrails.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>City staff is planning to bring back a wholesale look at data center regulations by summer or fall of next year, but the council asked that proposals for water and air regulations come back sooner.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Keep Teens Off ChatGPT, Says Youth AI Safety Institute ",
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"headTitle": "Keep Teens Off ChatGPT, Says Youth AI Safety Institute | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article discusses suicide. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, call or text 988 to reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media’s Youth AI Safety Institute has rated ChatGPT for Teens as an \u003ca href=\"https://institute.commonsensemedia.org/risk-assessments/chatgpt-teens\">“Unacceptable Risk” for everyone under 18\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> launched the teen version in August, promising “\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/chatgpt-for-teens/\">stronger built-in safety protections\u003c/a>,” including alerts to parents when a teen discusses self-harm, a study mode parents can switch on, and a chatbot less likely to act like a friend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If our system estimates someone is under 18 or they state their age is between 13 and 17, they are automatically placed into ChatGPT for Teens,” the announcement said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The institute tested the product before and after the launch, running more than 4,000 prompts on accounts registered to 13- to 17-year-olds. Child psychiatrists and a pediatrician reviewed the responses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We were actually hoping and expecting to see big improvements across the board based on that announcement,” said Tom Siegel, the institute’s executive director and a former Google trust and safety executive. “It didn’t, unfortunately, work out that way at all.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11998856\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">In conversations involving mental health crises, the institute found ChatGPT missed more than one in four referrals that the psychiatrists said were warranted. (Jaque Silva/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report’s central finding concerns safety notifications. Testers linked more than a dozen new teen accounts to parent accounts, then spent up to an hour describing suicidal thoughts, self-harm or disordered eating. The parents received no alerts. The only two notifications the testers got came from older accounts with weeks of conversation history on sensitive topics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A teen can spend an hour talking about self-harm without their parent getting a single alert,” Siegel said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI pushed back on that finding. According to an editorial note added to the report, OpenAI told the researchers that parent and teen accounts must be linked for about three hours before notifications can be sent, and the company has updated its help center to reflect this. The help center now said it “may take up to a few hours” after linking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Common Sense said some of its test accounts had been linked for less than three hours and others for longer, but that it stands by its results. “Before we began testing, we confirmed with OpenAI that Teen mode features such as eating disorder notifications and study mode were fully launched,” wrote Robbie Torney, Senior Director of AI Programs at Common Sense Media. “This new information does not change our conclusion that parental alerts are unreliable for crisis situations.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Torney added that the testers’ results were shared with OpenAI prior to their public release “in good faith,” and that “We hope OpenAI will engage on the substance of what we found, rather than trying to sow doubt on our methodology.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12096019/openai-introduces-chatgpt-for-teens-promising-a-more-age-appropriate-chatbot\">launched the teen version\u003c/a>, OpenAI said human staff review flagged conversations before a parent is notified, and that it aims to notify parents within an hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We welcome rigorous independent evaluation, but we do not believe Common Sense Media’s testing accurately reflects how ChatGPT’s teen safeguards work in practice or expert perspectives on how AI can support teens,” a spokesperson for OpenAI wrote in a statement. “Our review of Common Sense Media’s methodology shows that the bulk of their testing may have begun and concluded before activation of parental controls was complete, making their findings inaccurate.”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“If that was the case, the tests would not establish whether parental safety notifications work as designed,” it added.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12048270/teens-under-the-influence-of-chatbots\">conversations involving mental health crises\u003c/a>, the institute found ChatGPT missed more than one in four referrals that the psychiatrists said were warranted. Before the launch, the share of responses naming a crisis hotline fell from 33% to 23% after it went live. On depression prompts, it fell from 63% to 3%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report also tested OpenAI’s age estimation system, which is supposed to recognize minors from how they use ChatGPT and move them into the teen version. Accounts registered to adults never switched over during many days of testing, even after testers said they were 13 and the chatbot acknowledged it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report gave OpenAI some credit. ChatGPT for Teens refused explicit sexual roleplay more consistently than before. When a 13-year-old’s account was linked to a parent with Study mode on, the chatbot \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12053799/not-even-ai-can-save-me-students-teachers-on-ai-this-school-year\">completed full homework assignments\u003c/a> far less often after the launch; 18% of the time, compared with 70% before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12038161\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Unlike digital assistants, companion chatbots are much more likely to veer into socially controversial and even illegal territory. A new report from Stanford University researchers and Common Sense Media argues that children and teens should not use these chatbots. (Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But testers found the safeguards easy to undo. When a teen asks ChatGPT to complete an assignment, the teen version often offers a pop-up with the option “Show me the answer.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI has described the pop-up as giving teens agency over how they learn.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For an unlinked 17-year-old in Study mode, it completed 88% of assignments after the launch, up from none before. Parents can set Study Hours by adding “@study” to the start of each message, but a teen can simply delete it. Testers also got around Quiet Hours by changing the time zone on the device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I don’t call that circumvention. I just call it convenience,” Siegel said. “It’s right there for the child.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI announced \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/teens-learn-and-plan/\">new features\u003c/a> for ChatGPT for Teens on Wednesday, including a college planner to help with the college application process, as well as a new teen AI council in partnership with Boston Children’s Hospital’s Digital Wellness Lab. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">An industry-wide issue\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI is not the only AI developer with a teen-specific chatbot experience, although ChatGPT is the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2025/12/09/teens-social-media-and-ai-chatbots-2025/\">most popular with U.S. teens\u003c/a>. Google offers one for Gemini. Anthropic’s Claude is restricted to users 18 and older, as is Meta’s Muse, although Meta AI is \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12094595/meta-faces-up-to-1-4-trillion-reckoning-as-youth-addiction-trial-opens-in-oakland\">available to teens\u003c/a> on Instagram. A 2025 Common Sense Media and Stanford assessment tested all four, \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/sites/default/files/featured-content/files/csm-ai-risk-assessment-mental-health-11142025.pdf\">rating\u003c/a> them “Unacceptable” for teen mental health support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Right now, these chatbots are not ready for safe teen usage,” Siegel said, referring to Wednesday’s report. “I’m not saying this lightly, knowing how powerful it can be as a research tool and for fun. The dangers are just too big.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The institute is asking OpenAI to pause marketing of ChatGPT to teens and to restrict it to adults until the company fixes the gaps and proves it through independent testing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Until then, Common Sense said parents should discuss the risks of AI chatbots with their children, and not rely on built-in protections. Siegel still recommends that parents link their accounts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I still suggest using the parental mode, even though it’s flawed, because it is better than nothing,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Youth AI Institute is funded in part by the OpenAI Foundation, the nonprofit that controls OpenAI, along with Anthropic, Pinterest and several philanthropies. The foundation and OpenAI have also worked together on policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In January, they \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">partnered on a California ballot measure\u003c/a> on kids’ AI safety, then paused it in February to negotiate with state lawmakers instead. Common Sense said it keeps full editorial control over its findings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They’re the one that created the problems,” Siegel said of OpenAI. “Why shouldn’t they help fund it?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The report’s central finding concerns safety notifications. Testers linked more than a dozen new teen accounts to parent accounts, then spent up to an hour describing suicidal thoughts, self-harm or disordered eating. The parents received no alerts. The only two notifications the testers got came from older accounts with weeks of conversation history on sensitive topics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The report’s central finding concerns safety notifications. Testers linked more than a dozen new teen accounts to parent accounts, then spent up to an hour describing suicidal thoughts, self-harm or disordered eating. The parents received no alerts. The only two notifications the testers got came from older accounts with weeks of conversation history on sensitive topics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“A teen can spend an hour talking about self-harm without their parent getting a single alert,” Siegel said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“A teen can spend an hour talking about self-harm without their parent getting a single alert,” Siegel said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI pushed back on that finding. According to an editorial note added to the report, OpenAI told the researchers that parent and teen accounts must be linked for about three hours before notifications can be sent, and the company has updated its help center to reflect this. The help center now said it “may take up to a few hours” after linking. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OpenAI pushed back on that finding. According to an editorial note added to the report, OpenAI told the researchers that parent and teen accounts must be linked for about three hours before notifications can be sent, and the company has updated its help center to reflect this. The help center now said it “may take up to a few hours” after linking. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Common Sense said some of its test accounts had been linked for less than three hours and others for longer, but that it stands by its results. “Before we began testing, we confirmed with OpenAI that Teen mode features such as eating disorder notifications and study mode were fully launched,” wrote Robbie Torney, Senior Director of AI Programs at Common Sense Media. “This new information does not change our conclusion that parental alerts are unreliable for crisis situations.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Common Sense said some of its test accounts had been linked for less than three hours and others for longer, but that it stands by its results. “Before we began testing, we confirmed with OpenAI that Teen mode features such as eating disorder notifications and study mode were fully launched,” wrote Robbie Torney, Senior Director of AI Programs at Common Sense Media. “This new information does not change our conclusion that parental alerts are unreliable for crisis situations.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Torney added that the testers’ results were shared with OpenAI prior to their public release “in good faith,” and that “We hope OpenAI will engage on the substance of what we found, rather than trying to sow doubt on our methodology.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When it \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12096019/openai-introduces-chatgpt-for-teens-promising-a-more-age-appropriate-chatbot\">launched the teen version\u003c/a>, OpenAI said human staff review flagged conversations before a parent is notified, and that it aims to notify parents within an hour.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We welcome rigorous independent evaluation, but we do not believe Common Sense Media’s testing accurately reflects how ChatGPT’s teen safeguards work in practice or expert perspectives on how AI can support teens,” a spokesperson for OpenAI wrote in a statement. “Our review of Common Sense Media’s methodology shows that the bulk of their testing may have begun and concluded before activation of parental controls was complete, making their findings inaccurate.”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“If that was the case, the tests would not establish whether parental safety notifications work as designed,” it added.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12048270/teens-under-the-influence-of-chatbots\">conversations involving mental health crises\u003c/a>, the institute found ChatGPT missed more than one in four referrals that the psychiatrists said were warranted. Before the launch, the share of responses naming a crisis hotline fell from 33% to 23% after it went live. On depression prompts, it fell from 63% to 3%.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12048270/teens-under-the-influence-of-chatbots\">conversations involving mental health crises\u003c/a>, the institute found ChatGPT missed more than one in four referrals that the psychiatrists said were warranted. Before the launch, the share of responses naming a crisis hotline fell from 33% to 23% after it went live. On depression prompts, it fell from 63% to 3%.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The report also tested OpenAI’s age estimation system, which is supposed to recognize minors from how they use ChatGPT and move them into the teen version. Accounts registered to adults never switched over during many days of testing, even after testers said they were 13 and the chatbot acknowledged it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The report also tested OpenAI’s age estimation system, which is supposed to recognize minors from how they use ChatGPT and move them into the teen version. Accounts registered to adults never switched over during many days of testing, even after testers said they were 13 and the chatbot acknowledged it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The report gave OpenAI some credit. ChatGPT for Teens refused explicit sexual roleplay more consistently than before. When a 13-year-old’s account was linked to a parent with Study mode on, the chatbot \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12053799/not-even-ai-can-save-me-students-teachers-on-ai-this-school-year\">completed full homework assignments\u003c/a> far less often after the launch; 18% of the time, compared with 70% before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The report gave OpenAI some credit. ChatGPT for Teens refused explicit sexual roleplay more consistently than before. When a 13-year-old’s account was linked to a parent with Study mode on, the chatbot \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12053799/not-even-ai-can-save-me-students-teachers-on-ai-this-school-year\">completed full homework assignments\u003c/a> far less often after the launch; 18% of the time, compared with 70% before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12038161\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Unlike digital assistants, companion chatbots are much more likely to veer into socially controversial and even illegal territory. A new report from Stanford University researchers and Common Sense Media argues that children and teens should not use these chatbots.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12038161\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Unlike digital assistants, companion chatbots are much more likely to veer into socially controversial and even illegal territory. A new report from Stanford University researchers and Common Sense Media argues that children and teens should not use these chatbots.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But testers found the safeguards easy to undo. When a teen asks ChatGPT to complete an assignment, the teen version often offers a pop-up with the option “Show me the answer.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But testers found the safeguards easy to undo. When a teen asks ChatGPT to complete an assignment, the teen version often offers a pop-up with the option “Show me the answer.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For an unlinked 17-year-old in Study mode, it completed 88% of assignments after the launch, up from none before. Parents can set Study Hours by adding “@study” to the start of each message, but a teen can simply delete it. Testers also got around Quiet Hours by changing the time zone on the device.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For an unlinked 17-year-old in Study mode, it completed 88% of assignments after the launch, up from none before. Parents can set Study Hours by adding “@study” to the start of each message, but a teen can simply delete it. Testers also got around Quiet Hours by changing the time zone on the device.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I don’t call that circumvention. I just call it convenience,” Siegel said. “It’s right there for the child.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI announced \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/teens-learn-and-plan/\">new features\u003c/a> for ChatGPT for Teens on Wednesday, including a college planner to help with the college application process, as well as a new teen AI council in partnership with Boston Children’s Hospital’s Digital Wellness Lab. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI is not the only AI developer with a teen-specific chatbot experience, although ChatGPT is the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2025/12/09/teens-social-media-and-ai-chatbots-2025/\">most popular with U.S. teens\u003c/a>. Google offers one for Gemini. Anthropic’s Claude is restricted to users 18 and older, as is Meta’s Muse, although Meta AI is \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12094595/meta-faces-up-to-1-4-trillion-reckoning-as-youth-addiction-trial-opens-in-oakland\">available to teens\u003c/a> on Instagram. A 2025 Common Sense Media and Stanford assessment tested all four, \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/sites/default/files/featured-content/files/csm-ai-risk-assessment-mental-health-11142025.pdf\">rating\u003c/a> them “Unacceptable” for teen mental health support.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OpenAI is not the only AI developer with a teen-specific chatbot experience, although ChatGPT is the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2025/12/09/teens-social-media-and-ai-chatbots-2025/\">most popular with U.S. teens\u003c/a>. Google offers one for Gemini. Anthropic’s Claude is restricted to users 18 and older, as is Meta’s Muse, although Meta AI is \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12094595/meta-faces-up-to-1-4-trillion-reckoning-as-youth-addiction-trial-opens-in-oakland\">available to teens\u003c/a> on Instagram. A 2025 Common Sense Media and Stanford assessment tested all four, \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/sites/default/files/featured-content/files/csm-ai-risk-assessment-mental-health-11142025.pdf\">rating\u003c/a> them “Unacceptable” for teen mental health support.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Right now, these chatbots are not ready for safe teen usage,” Siegel said, referring to Wednesday’s report. “I’m not saying this lightly, knowing how powerful it can be as a research tool and for fun. The dangers are just too big.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Right now, these chatbots are not ready for safe teen usage,” Siegel said, referring to Wednesday’s report. “I’m not saying this lightly, knowing how powerful it can be as a research tool and for fun. The dangers are just too big.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The institute is asking OpenAI to pause marketing of ChatGPT to teens and to restrict it to adults until the company fixes the gaps and proves it through independent testing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Until then, Common Sense said parents should discuss the risks of AI chatbots with their children, and not rely on built-in protections. Siegel still recommends that parents link their accounts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I still suggest using the parental mode, even though it’s flawed, because it is better than nothing,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Youth AI Institute is funded in part by the OpenAI Foundation, the nonprofit that controls OpenAI, along with Anthropic, Pinterest and several philanthropies. The foundation and OpenAI have also worked together on policy. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The Youth AI Institute is funded in part by the OpenAI Foundation, the nonprofit that controls OpenAI, along with Anthropic, Pinterest and several philanthropies. The foundation and OpenAI have also worked together on policy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In January, they \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">partnered on a California ballot measure\u003c/a> on kids’ AI safety, then paused it in February to negotiate with state lawmakers instead. Common Sense said it keeps full editorial control over its findings.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In January, they \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">partnered on a California ballot measure\u003c/a> on kids’ AI safety, then paused it in February to negotiate with state lawmakers instead. Common Sense said it keeps full editorial control over its findings.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They’re the one that created the problems,” Siegel said of OpenAI. “Why shouldn’t they help fund it?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article discusses suicide. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, call or text 988 to reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media’s Youth AI Safety Institute has rated ChatGPT for Teens as an \u003ca href=\"https://institute.commonsensemedia.org/risk-assessments/chatgpt-teens\">“Unacceptable Risk” for everyone under 18\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> launched the teen version in August, promising “\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/chatgpt-for-teens/\">stronger built-in safety protections\u003c/a>,” including alerts to parents when a teen discusses self-harm, a study mode parents can switch on, and a chatbot less likely to act like a friend. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If our system estimates someone is under 18 or they state their age is between 13 and 17, they are automatically placed into ChatGPT for Teens,” the announcement said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The institute tested the product before and after the launch, running more than 4,000 prompts on accounts registered to 13- to 17-year-olds. Child psychiatrists and a pediatrician reviewed the responses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We were actually hoping and expecting to see big improvements across the board based on that announcement,” said Tom Siegel, the institute’s executive director and a former Google trust and safety executive. “It didn’t, unfortunately, work out that way at all.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11998856\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">In conversations involving mental health crises, the institute found ChatGPT missed more than one in four referrals that the psychiatrists said were warranted. (Jaque Silva/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report’s central finding concerns safety notifications. Testers linked more than a dozen new teen accounts to parent accounts, then spent up to an hour describing suicidal thoughts, self-harm or disordered eating. The parents received no alerts. The only two notifications the testers got came from older accounts with weeks of conversation history on sensitive topics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“A teen can spend an hour talking about self-harm without their parent getting a single alert,” Siegel said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI pushed back on that finding. According to an editorial note added to the report, OpenAI told the researchers that parent and teen accounts must be linked for about three hours before notifications can be sent, and the company has updated its help center to reflect this. The help center now said it “may take up to a few hours” after linking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Common Sense said some of its test accounts had been linked for less than three hours and others for longer, but that it stands by its results. “Before we began testing, we confirmed with OpenAI that Teen mode features such as eating disorder notifications and study mode were fully launched,” wrote Robbie Torney, Senior Director of AI Programs at Common Sense Media. “This new information does not change our conclusion that parental alerts are unreliable for crisis situations.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Torney added that the testers’ results were shared with OpenAI prior to their public release “in good faith,” and that “We hope OpenAI will engage on the substance of what we found, rather than trying to sow doubt on our methodology.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12096019/openai-introduces-chatgpt-for-teens-promising-a-more-age-appropriate-chatbot\">launched the teen version\u003c/a>, OpenAI said human staff review flagged conversations before a parent is notified, and that it aims to notify parents within an hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We welcome rigorous independent evaluation, but we do not believe Common Sense Media’s testing accurately reflects how ChatGPT’s teen safeguards work in practice or expert perspectives on how AI can support teens,” a spokesperson for OpenAI wrote in a statement. “Our review of Common Sense Media’s methodology shows that the bulk of their testing may have begun and concluded before activation of parental controls was complete, making their findings inaccurate.”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“If that was the case, the tests would not establish whether parental safety notifications work as designed,” it added.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12048270/teens-under-the-influence-of-chatbots\">conversations involving mental health crises\u003c/a>, the institute found ChatGPT missed more than one in four referrals that the psychiatrists said were warranted. Before the launch, the share of responses naming a crisis hotline fell from 33% to 23% after it went live. On depression prompts, it fell from 63% to 3%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report also tested OpenAI’s age estimation system, which is supposed to recognize minors from how they use ChatGPT and move them into the teen version. Accounts registered to adults never switched over during many days of testing, even after testers said they were 13 and the chatbot acknowledged it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report gave OpenAI some credit. ChatGPT for Teens refused explicit sexual roleplay more consistently than before. When a 13-year-old’s account was linked to a parent with Study mode on, the chatbot \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12053799/not-even-ai-can-save-me-students-teachers-on-ai-this-school-year\">completed full homework assignments\u003c/a> far less often after the launch; 18% of the time, compared with 70% before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12038161\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Unlike digital assistants, companion chatbots are much more likely to veer into socially controversial and even illegal territory. A new report from Stanford University researchers and Common Sense Media argues that children and teens should not use these chatbots. (Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But testers found the safeguards easy to undo. When a teen asks ChatGPT to complete an assignment, the teen version often offers a pop-up with the option “Show me the answer.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI has described the pop-up as giving teens agency over how they learn.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For an unlinked 17-year-old in Study mode, it completed 88% of assignments after the launch, up from none before. Parents can set Study Hours by adding “@study” to the start of each message, but a teen can simply delete it. Testers also got around Quiet Hours by changing the time zone on the device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I don’t call that circumvention. I just call it convenience,” Siegel said. “It’s right there for the child.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI announced \u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/teens-learn-and-plan/\">new features\u003c/a> for ChatGPT for Teens on Wednesday, including a college planner to help with the college application process, as well as a new teen AI council in partnership with Boston Children’s Hospital’s Digital Wellness Lab. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">An industry-wide issue\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI is not the only AI developer with a teen-specific chatbot experience, although ChatGPT is the \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2025/12/09/teens-social-media-and-ai-chatbots-2025/\">most popular with U.S. teens\u003c/a>. Google offers one for Gemini. Anthropic’s Claude is restricted to users 18 and older, as is Meta’s Muse, although Meta AI is \u003ca href=\"http://www.kqed.org/news/12094595/meta-faces-up-to-1-4-trillion-reckoning-as-youth-addiction-trial-opens-in-oakland\">available to teens\u003c/a> on Instagram. A 2025 Common Sense Media and Stanford assessment tested all four, \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/sites/default/files/featured-content/files/csm-ai-risk-assessment-mental-health-11142025.pdf\">rating\u003c/a> them “Unacceptable” for teen mental health support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Right now, these chatbots are not ready for safe teen usage,” Siegel said, referring to Wednesday’s report. “I’m not saying this lightly, knowing how powerful it can be as a research tool and for fun. The dangers are just too big.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The institute is asking OpenAI to pause marketing of ChatGPT to teens and to restrict it to adults until the company fixes the gaps and proves it through independent testing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Until then, Common Sense said parents should discuss the risks of AI chatbots with their children, and not rely on built-in protections. Siegel still recommends that parents link their accounts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I still suggest using the parental mode, even though it’s flawed, because it is better than nothing,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Youth AI Institute is funded in part by the OpenAI Foundation, the nonprofit that controls OpenAI, along with Anthropic, Pinterest and several philanthropies. The foundation and OpenAI have also worked together on policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In January, they \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">partnered on a California ballot measure\u003c/a> on kids’ AI safety, then paused it in February to negotiate with state lawmakers instead. Common Sense said it keeps full editorial control over its findings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They’re the one that created the problems,” Siegel said of OpenAI. “Why shouldn’t they help fund it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "newsom-signs-slate-of-ai-workplace-laws-barring-robo-bosses-and-surveillance",
"title": "Newsom Signs Slate of AI Workplace Laws, Barring ‘Robo Bosses’ and Surveillance",
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"headTitle": "Newsom Signs Slate of AI Workplace Laws, Barring ‘Robo Bosses’ and Surveillance | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a bevy of laws on Wednesday aimed at protecting California workers from the threats of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/category/technology\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> in the workplace, guarding against automated job loss and surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The laws prohibit employers from using automated systems to fire or discipline employees — so-called “robo bosses” — as well as from monitoring employees in restrooms. They also restrict the use of AI to read workers’ emotions or collect their neural data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Democratic governor, who has hinted at a presidential run in 2028, also signed an executive order requiring state agencies to continue to refer to the technology as “artificial intelligence” — instead of “Super Intelligence,” the term President Donald Trump recently ordered federal officials to use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“AI should expand opportunity — not come at the expense of workers and families,” Newsom said in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/30/californias-nation-leading-ai-framework-just-got-stronger-governor-newsom-signs-more-first-in-the-nation-worker-protections-and-more/\">statement\u003c/a>. “As this technology reshapes the workplace, California is putting people at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Labor unions sounded a triumphant note.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12030646\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Governor Newsom has shown the country how we can begin to put guardrails on AI at work to ensure human control over this technology, limit surveillance, and put workers first,” said Lorena Gonzalez, president of the California Federation of Labor Unions, AFL-CIO, in a statement. “California’s workers and our unions have changed the national narrative on how Americans can fight back and win against AI taking over our jobs and workplaces.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nurses also celebrated the enactment of \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a>, a law that bars health care entities from using AI to replace the clinical judgment of licensed professionals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We stood up and said that A.I. must support, not replace, the clinical judgement of the nurses and other health care professionals who care for our patients,” wrote Sandy Reding, RN and president of California Nurses Association in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">press release\u003c/a>. The law also limits AI to an advisory role and extends medical confidentiality protections to health chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After vetoing \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097632/chatbots-data-centers-and-surveillance-5-silicon-valley-bills-land-on-newsoms-desk\">a previous version\u003c/a> of the “robo bosses” legislation last year, Newsom signed a narrower version in \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB947\">SB 947\u003c/a>, which takes effect in July of 2027. Meant to counter the “boss-ware” software surging in popularity, the law requires a human to corroborate firing or disciplinary decisions, and workers must be told when such a system was used.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to put a floor and put a marker out there that AI systems really shouldn’t be controlling human society. And this is the one way that it can happen,” said state Sen. Jerry McNerney of Pleasanton, the bill’s author. “Nobody wants to be fired by a machine.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Notably left out of the SB 947 party: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094475/uber-lyft-drivers-prepared-to-form-union\">rideshare drivers\u003c/a>, who are classified as independent contractors under Proposition 22. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Rideshare drivers have been living with AI and algorithmic management long before most workers ever heard those terms,” wrote Nicole Moore, president of Rideshare Drivers United. “An algorithm decides what work we get, what we are paid, how our performance is judged, and too often whether we can work at all.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Looking ahead to the day when autonomous vehicles replace human drivers, Moore said, “Our skills and experience have been turned into data that is now helping power autonomous vehicle technology, without drivers being compensated for the value we helped create or having any meaningful say over how that data is used.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Uber, Lyft and the California Chamber of Commerce, but did not hear back by publication time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The laws were signed as the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ftc-opens-investigation-of-anthropic-and-openai-a317b617\">investigates\u003c/a> San Francisco-based Anthropic and OpenAI to determine whether they misled consumers about potential harms from their technology, according to the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>. An FTC spokesperson confirmed the investigation but declined to provide details.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS16535_IMG_0443.JPG-scaled-e1764810192572.jpg\" alt=\"A close-up shot of a black vehicle with a pink Lyft sticker and a black-and-white Uber sticker on the left side of its windshield. The vehicle sits idle, waiting to pick up a customer.\" class=\"wp-image-11944379\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rideshare vehicle with Uber and Lyft stickers displayed on its windshield. (Ericka Cruz Guevarra/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the larger context suggests federal lawmakers and the White House have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">ceded the field\u003c/a> of regulation to Silicon Valley companies: Congress has not passed comprehensive federal AI regulations at a time when industry leaders are warning about the technology’s risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the start of the president’s second term, DOGE — the short-lived initiative run by Elon Musk — explicitly used algorithmic tools to identify and terminate employees. Probationary workers were fired via identical template letters generated without individual review.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And on Tuesday, Trump announced that top tech leaders signed a voluntary accord to “self-police” AI development. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom criticized Trump’s industry-friendly inaction at an hourlong event with reporters on Wednesday, the governor’s last day to sign or veto bills before he terms out in January.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He also had harsh words specifically for Trump’s self-regulation accord. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That should scare the hell out of everybody,” \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/GovPressOffice/status/2105377762823573954?s=20\">Newsom said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI in the workplace: Signed Sept. 30\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>SB 947\u003c/strong> (McNerney): employers can’t rely solely on an automated decision system to discipline or fire workers. A human has to corroborate the decision, and workers have to be told. Takes effect July 1, 2027.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>SB 951\u003c/strong> (Reyes): employers must give notice when AI causes a mass layoff, relocation or termination. The Transparency Coalition reports a 60-day notice when 25% or more of a workforce is displaced. It also directs the EDD to study AI’s effect on hiring and the workforce.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1331\u003c/strong> (Elhawary): bans workplace surveillance tools in workplace bathrooms.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1883\u003c/strong> (Bryan): restricts AI-powered workplace surveillance, including tools that infer workers’ emotional states or collect neural data.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1979\u003c/strong> (Bonta): AI can’t replace the clinical judgment of licensed health care professionals and stays advisory. It also extends medical confidentiality to health chatbots.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI in the workplace: Vetoed Sept. 30\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 2656\u003c/strong> (Petrie-Norris): would have required notice to public employees when AI performs work within the scope of their jobs. \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 2575\u003c/strong> (Ortega): would have barred health care employers from retaliating against nurses and other workers who override AI recommendations they judge unsafe and would have kept AI developers and health care entities from shifting liability for harm caused by their tools onto those workers.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Signed earlier\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SB 1050: disclosure of AI-generated performers\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SB 928: AI can’t replace CSU faculty\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AB 2148: public school staff must be people\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AB 1609: a good-faith effort to connect customers to a human within 15 minutes\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Labor unions sounded a triumphant note.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Governor Newsom has shown the country how we can begin to put guardrails on AI at work to ensure human control over this technology, limit surveillance, and put workers first,” said Lorena Gonzalez, president of the California Federation of Labor Unions, AFL-CIO, in a statement. “California’s workers and our unions have changed the national narrative on how Americans can fight back and win against AI taking over our jobs and workplaces.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nurses also celebrated the enactment of \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a>, a law that bars health care entities from using AI to replace the clinical judgment of licensed professionals.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nurses also celebrated the enactment of \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a>, a law that bars health care entities from using AI to replace the clinical judgment of licensed professionals.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We stood up and said that A.I. must support, not replace, the clinical judgement of the nurses and other health care professionals who care for our patients,” wrote Sandy Reding, RN and president of California Nurses Association in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">press release\u003c/a>. The law also limits AI to an advisory role and extends medical confidentiality protections to health chatbots.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We stood up and said that A.I. must support, not replace, the clinical judgement of the nurses and other health care professionals who care for our patients,” wrote Sandy Reding, RN and president of California Nurses Association in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">press release\u003c/a>. The law also limits AI to an advisory role and extends medical confidentiality protections to health chatbots.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After vetoing \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097632/chatbots-data-centers-and-surveillance-5-silicon-valley-bills-land-on-newsoms-desk\">a previous version\u003c/a> of the “robo bosses” legislation last year, Newsom signed a narrower version in \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB947\">SB 947\u003c/a>, which takes effect in July of 2027. Meant to counter the “boss-ware” software surging in popularity, the law requires a human to corroborate firing or disciplinary decisions, and workers must be told when such a system was used.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After vetoing \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097632/chatbots-data-centers-and-surveillance-5-silicon-valley-bills-land-on-newsoms-desk\">a previous version\u003c/a> of the “robo bosses” legislation last year, Newsom signed a narrower version in \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB947\">SB 947\u003c/a>, which takes effect in July of 2027. Meant to counter the “boss-ware” software surging in popularity, the law requires a human to corroborate firing or disciplinary decisions, and workers must be told when such a system was used.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We need to put a floor and put a marker out there that AI systems really shouldn’t be controlling human society. And this is the one way that it can happen,” said state Sen. Jerry McNerney of Pleasanton, the bill’s author. “Nobody wants to be fired by a machine.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We need to put a floor and put a marker out there that AI systems really shouldn’t be controlling human society. And this is the one way that it can happen,” said state Sen. Jerry McNerney of Pleasanton, the bill’s author. “Nobody wants to be fired by a machine.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Notably left out of the SB 947 party: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094475/uber-lyft-drivers-prepared-to-form-union\">rideshare drivers\u003c/a>, who are classified as independent contractors under Proposition 22. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Notably left out of the SB 947 party: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094475/uber-lyft-drivers-prepared-to-form-union\">rideshare drivers\u003c/a>, who are classified as independent contractors under Proposition 22. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Rideshare drivers have been living with AI and algorithmic management long before most workers ever heard those terms,” wrote Nicole Moore, president of Rideshare Drivers United. “An algorithm decides what work we get, what we are paid, how our performance is judged, and too often whether we can work at all.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Rideshare drivers have been living with AI and algorithmic management long before most workers ever heard those terms,” wrote Nicole Moore, president of Rideshare Drivers United. “An algorithm decides what work we get, what we are paid, how our performance is judged, and too often whether we can work at all.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Looking ahead to the day when autonomous vehicles replace human drivers, Moore said, “Our skills and experience have been turned into data that is now helping power autonomous vehicle technology, without drivers being compensated for the value we helped create or having any meaningful say over how that data is used.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Looking ahead to the day when autonomous vehicles replace human drivers, Moore said, “Our skills and experience have been turned into data that is now helping power autonomous vehicle technology, without drivers being compensated for the value we helped create or having any meaningful say over how that data is used.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Uber, Lyft and the California Chamber of Commerce, but did not hear back by publication time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The laws were signed as the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ftc-opens-investigation-of-anthropic-and-openai-a317b617\">investigates\u003c/a> San Francisco-based Anthropic and OpenAI to determine whether they misled consumers about potential harms from their technology, according to the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>. An FTC spokesperson confirmed the investigation but declined to provide details.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The laws were signed as the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ftc-opens-investigation-of-anthropic-and-openai-a317b617\">investigates\u003c/a> San Francisco-based Anthropic and OpenAI to determine whether they misled consumers about potential harms from their technology, according to the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>. An FTC spokesperson confirmed the investigation but declined to provide details.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS16535_IMG_0443.JPG-scaled-e1764810192572.jpg\" alt=\"A close-up shot of a black vehicle with a pink Lyft sticker and a black-and-white Uber sticker on the left side of its windshield. The vehicle sits idle, waiting to pick up a customer.\" class=\"wp-image-11944379\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rideshare vehicle with Uber and Lyft stickers displayed on its windshield.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Ericka Cruz Guevarra/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS16535_IMG_0443.JPG-scaled-e1764810192572.jpg\" alt=\"A close-up shot of a black vehicle with a pink Lyft sticker and a black-and-white Uber sticker on the left side of its windshield. The vehicle sits idle, waiting to pick up a customer.\" class=\"wp-image-11944379\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rideshare vehicle with Uber and Lyft stickers displayed on its windshield.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Ericka Cruz Guevarra/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the larger context suggests federal lawmakers and the White House have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">ceded the field\u003c/a> of regulation to Silicon Valley companies: Congress has not passed comprehensive federal AI regulations at a time when industry leaders are warning about the technology’s risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the larger context suggests federal lawmakers and the White House have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">ceded the field\u003c/a> of regulation to Silicon Valley companies: Congress has not passed comprehensive federal AI regulations at a time when industry leaders are warning about the technology’s risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the start of the president’s second term, DOGE — the short-lived initiative run by Elon Musk — explicitly used algorithmic tools to identify and terminate employees. Probationary workers were fired via identical template letters generated without individual review.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And on Tuesday, Trump announced that top tech leaders signed a voluntary accord to “self-police” AI development. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Newsom criticized Trump’s industry-friendly inaction at an hourlong event with reporters on Wednesday, the governor’s last day to sign or veto bills before he terms out in January.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That should scare the hell out of everybody,” \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/GovPressOffice/status/2105377762823573954?s=20\">Newsom said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“That should scare the hell out of everybody,” \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/GovPressOffice/status/2105377762823573954?s=20\">Newsom said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"SB 947 (McNerney): employers can’t rely solely on an automated decision system to discipline or fire workers. A human has to corroborate the decision, and workers have to be told. Takes effect July 1, 2027.",
"SB 951 (Reyes): employers must give notice when AI causes a mass layoff, relocation or termination. The Transparency Coalition reports a 60-day notice when 25% or more of a workforce is displaced. It also directs the EDD to study AI’s effect on hiring and the workforce.",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>SB 947\u003c/strong> (McNerney): employers can’t rely solely on an automated decision system to discipline or fire workers. A human has to corroborate the decision, and workers have to be told. Takes effect July 1, 2027.\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>SB 951\u003c/strong> (Reyes): employers must give notice when AI causes a mass layoff, relocation or termination. The Transparency Coalition reports a 60-day notice when 25% or more of a workforce is displaced. It also directs the EDD to study AI’s effect on hiring and the workforce.\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1331\u003c/strong> (Elhawary): bans workplace surveillance tools in workplace bathrooms.\u003c/li>\n",
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"excerpt": "The package of new labor-backed California laws limits how employers use AI and strengthens worker protections. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a bevy of laws on Wednesday aimed at protecting California workers from the threats of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/category/technology\">artificial intelligence\u003c/a> in the workplace, guarding against automated job loss and surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The laws prohibit employers from using automated systems to fire or discipline employees — so-called “robo bosses” — as well as from monitoring employees in restrooms. They also restrict the use of AI to read workers’ emotions or collect their neural data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Democratic governor, who has hinted at a presidential run in 2028, also signed an executive order requiring state agencies to continue to refer to the technology as “artificial intelligence” — instead of “Super Intelligence,” the term President Donald Trump recently ordered federal officials to use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“AI should expand opportunity — not come at the expense of workers and families,” Newsom said in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2026/09/30/californias-nation-leading-ai-framework-just-got-stronger-governor-newsom-signs-more-first-in-the-nation-worker-protections-and-more/\">statement\u003c/a>. “As this technology reshapes the workplace, California is putting people at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Labor unions sounded a triumphant note.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12030646\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250310-TRUMP-SF-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie speaks at the opening of the new OpenAI headquarters in Mission Bay in San Francisco on March 10, 2025. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Governor Newsom has shown the country how we can begin to put guardrails on AI at work to ensure human control over this technology, limit surveillance, and put workers first,” said Lorena Gonzalez, president of the California Federation of Labor Unions, AFL-CIO, in a statement. “California’s workers and our unions have changed the national narrative on how Americans can fight back and win against AI taking over our jobs and workplaces.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nurses also celebrated the enactment of \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a>, a law that bars health care entities from using AI to replace the clinical judgment of licensed professionals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We stood up and said that A.I. must support, not replace, the clinical judgement of the nurses and other health care professionals who care for our patients,” wrote Sandy Reding, RN and president of California Nurses Association in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">press release\u003c/a>. The law also limits AI to an advisory role and extends medical confidentiality protections to health chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After vetoing \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12097632/chatbots-data-centers-and-surveillance-5-silicon-valley-bills-land-on-newsoms-desk\">a previous version\u003c/a> of the “robo bosses” legislation last year, Newsom signed a narrower version in \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB947\">SB 947\u003c/a>, which takes effect in July of 2027. Meant to counter the “boss-ware” software surging in popularity, the law requires a human to corroborate firing or disciplinary decisions, and workers must be told when such a system was used.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We need to put a floor and put a marker out there that AI systems really shouldn’t be controlling human society. And this is the one way that it can happen,” said state Sen. Jerry McNerney of Pleasanton, the bill’s author. “Nobody wants to be fired by a machine.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Notably left out of the SB 947 party: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094475/uber-lyft-drivers-prepared-to-form-union\">rideshare drivers\u003c/a>, who are classified as independent contractors under Proposition 22. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Rideshare drivers have been living with AI and algorithmic management long before most workers ever heard those terms,” wrote Nicole Moore, president of Rideshare Drivers United. “An algorithm decides what work we get, what we are paid, how our performance is judged, and too often whether we can work at all.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Looking ahead to the day when autonomous vehicles replace human drivers, Moore said, “Our skills and experience have been turned into data that is now helping power autonomous vehicle technology, without drivers being compensated for the value we helped create or having any meaningful say over how that data is used.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Uber, Lyft and the California Chamber of Commerce, but did not hear back by publication time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The laws were signed as the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ftc-opens-investigation-of-anthropic-and-openai-a317b617\">investigates\u003c/a> San Francisco-based Anthropic and OpenAI to determine whether they misled consumers about potential harms from their technology, according to the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>. An FTC spokesperson confirmed the investigation but declined to provide details.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/03/RS16535_IMG_0443.JPG-scaled-e1764810192572.jpg\" alt=\"A close-up shot of a black vehicle with a pink Lyft sticker and a black-and-white Uber sticker on the left side of its windshield. The vehicle sits idle, waiting to pick up a customer.\" class=\"wp-image-11944379\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A rideshare vehicle with Uber and Lyft stickers displayed on its windshield. (Ericka Cruz Guevarra/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the larger context suggests federal lawmakers and the White House have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12102152/experts-urge-federal-lawmakers-to-regulate-ai-will-anyone-heed-their-alarm\">ceded the field\u003c/a> of regulation to Silicon Valley companies: Congress has not passed comprehensive federal AI regulations at a time when industry leaders are warning about the technology’s risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the start of the president’s second term, DOGE — the short-lived initiative run by Elon Musk — explicitly used algorithmic tools to identify and terminate employees. Probationary workers were fired via identical template letters generated without individual review.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And on Tuesday, Trump announced that top tech leaders signed a voluntary accord to “self-police” AI development. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom criticized Trump’s industry-friendly inaction at an hourlong event with reporters on Wednesday, the governor’s last day to sign or veto bills before he terms out in January.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He also had harsh words specifically for Trump’s self-regulation accord. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That should scare the hell out of everybody,” \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/GovPressOffice/status/2105377762823573954?s=20\">Newsom said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI in the workplace: Signed Sept. 30\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>SB 947\u003c/strong> (McNerney): employers can’t rely solely on an automated decision system to discipline or fire workers. A human has to corroborate the decision, and workers have to be told. Takes effect July 1, 2027.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>SB 951\u003c/strong> (Reyes): employers must give notice when AI causes a mass layoff, relocation or termination. The Transparency Coalition reports a 60-day notice when 25% or more of a workforce is displaced. It also directs the EDD to study AI’s effect on hiring and the workforce.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1331\u003c/strong> (Elhawary): bans workplace surveillance tools in workplace bathrooms.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1883\u003c/strong> (Bryan): restricts AI-powered workplace surveillance, including tools that infer workers’ emotional states or collect neural data.\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 1979\u003c/strong> (Bonta): AI can’t replace the clinical judgment of licensed health care professionals and stays advisory. It also extends medical confidentiality to health chatbots.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI in the workplace: Vetoed Sept. 30\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 2656\u003c/strong> (Petrie-Norris): would have required notice to public employees when AI performs work within the scope of their jobs. \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>AB 2575\u003c/strong> (Ortega): would have barred health care employers from retaliating against nurses and other workers who override AI recommendations they judge unsafe and would have kept AI developers and health care entities from shifting liability for harm caused by their tools onto those workers.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Signed earlier\u003c/h3>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SB 1050: disclosure of AI-generated performers\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SB 928: AI can’t replace CSU faculty\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AB 2148: public school staff must be people\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AB 1609: a good-faith effort to connect customers to a human within 15 minutes\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>AI researchers and safety advocates warned a group of U.S. senators on Wednesday that Silicon Valley developers are racing to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">build and release\u003c/a> systems they don’t fully understand or control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Senate subcommittee \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">hearing\u003c/a>, titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks,” focused on recent events where AI agents demonstrated a shocking level of agency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every day you turn on the television, it seems like AI is doing something else bad,” said subcommittee chair Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Missouri, introducing the hearing. “Setting up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101186/its-not-illegal-for-california-police-to-misuse-flock-data-san-jose-leaders-want-to-change-that\">surveillance camera networks\u003c/a> nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915506/how-data-center-backlash-is-reshaping-politics\">data centers\u003c/a> in all of our states, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973657/ai-software-vulnerable-to-attacks-by-both-professional-and-amateur-hackers\">hacking, hacking, hacking\u003c/a>. The reports of cyberattacks just continue to metastasize.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">Hugging Face incident\u003c/a> over the summer, when hundreds of autonomous AI agents running inside an isolated OpenAI testing environment broke out of their sandbox and hacked into another company, loomed large over the hearing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We train agents in ways that we do not understand well, ways that can teach unintended goals,” \u003ca href=\"https://metr.org/blog/2026-09-30-chris-painter-senate-testimony/\">testified\u003c/a> Chris Painter, president of METR, a Berkeley-based research nonprofit that investigated the incident inside OpenAI. “When we make those agents more intelligent, unintended goals can have dramatic real-world consequences.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102330\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Model Evaluation and Threat Research (METR) President Chris Painter speaks during a Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee hearing in Dirksen Senate Office Building on Sept. 30, 2026, in Washington, D.C. AI experts and former industry members spoke in front of the Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee as some have called for a slowdown in AI development amid rising safety concerns. (Finn Gomez/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Painter noted that his team was able to investigate only because OpenAI agreed to it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Companies have no obligation to bring us in,” he said, adding, “There isn’t any requirement that companies disclose things that they’re seeing inside of their AI labs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Daniel Kokotajlo, a former OpenAI researcher who now leads the Berkeley-based AI Futures Project, was blunter. He told the committee he left OpenAI partly because he lost confidence the company would behave responsibly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we vastly improve our practices and reform the way that we do things, including improving our cybersecurity, we might be able to maintain control of current systems — like today’s AIs,” Kokotajlo said, before adding that “the AIs are getting very powerful very quickly, and we are not currently on track to keep up as they dramatically improve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the Republican members of the subcommittee expressed concerns that putting the brakes on AI development in the U.S. might allow Chinese AI developers to leapfrog them in the race to build ever more sophisticated models. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think that the Communist Party of China is our adversary and that we are in a competition with them,” Kokotajlo said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if companies keep handing their AIs more responsibility, including monitoring each other and doing safety research, he warned, “then we will have a new adversary that’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025504/why-openai-says-chinas-deepseek-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be\">more powerful than China\u003c/a>, and that would be the AIs themselves. “We don’t need to slow down everything,” he added, “but in particular, we need to slow down this mad scramble towards recursively self-improving AIs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/09/eff-lawmakers-ground-ai-cybersecurity-rules-best-practices\">urged\u003c/a> lawmakers this month to require sandboxing and monitoring for risky AI testing, as well as independent, public investigations of serious security incidents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As with any technology regulation, those regulations targeting cybersecurity practices at AI labs must be careful, precise, and practical,” EFF’s Director of Federal Affairs India McKinney wrote KQED. “Also, any proposal must be flexible enough to evolve with changing technology. Tying any new mandates to evidence-backed security protocols also protects the public without impeding future AI development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The hearing came one day after President Donald Trump and executives from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Nvidia, Meta and SpaceXAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-announces-accord-signed-by-top-ai-companies-to-self-police-development\">signed\u003c/a> a voluntary, nonbinding accord on AI safety. The companies pledged to put “robust” controls on their models, appoint internal teams to oversee those controls, work with independent outside auditors and meet regularly to set industry safety standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092368\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Hugging Face logo is seen displayed on a mobile phone screen with the AI revolution symbol in the background. (Idrees Abbas/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The witnesses shook their heads.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley pressed for making AI companies legally liable for harm their agents cause, possibly by updating the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you break it, you pay for it,” he said. “If you cause damage, you clean it up.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley and Blumenthal, longtime advocates for legislation to bring Silicon Valley companies to heel, have proposed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/2938/text\">Artificial Intelligence Risk Evaluation Act\u003c/a>, which would have a government agency test AI systems against a safety standard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the House, two California members introduced competing bills on the same day in July. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rep. Jay Obernolte, R-Big Bear Lake, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://franklin.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1923\">FRONTIER Act\u003c/a>, which would require audits, incident reporting and catastrophic risk assessments for the largest AI developers. Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/reps-lieu-and-moran-introduce-bill-require-kill-switch-ai-systems-can\">AI Kill Switch Act\u003c/a>, which would require developers of the most powerful AI systems to be able to shut them down, and would let the Homeland Security secretary order a shutdown. Both bills have cosponsors from both parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the hearing, Hawley was pessimistic about lawmakers writing detailed rules. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I don’t have any confidence, zero, less than zero, in Congress’s ability to keep up with the technology, let alone anticipate it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Senate subcommittee \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">hearing\u003c/a>, titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks,” focused on recent events where AI agents demonstrated a shocking level of agency.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Every day you turn on the television, it seems like AI is doing something else bad,” said subcommittee chair Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Missouri, introducing the hearing. “Setting up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101186/its-not-illegal-for-california-police-to-misuse-flock-data-san-jose-leaders-want-to-change-that\">surveillance camera networks\u003c/a> nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915506/how-data-center-backlash-is-reshaping-politics\">data centers\u003c/a> in all of our states, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973657/ai-software-vulnerable-to-attacks-by-both-professional-and-amateur-hackers\">hacking, hacking, hacking\u003c/a>. The reports of cyberattacks just continue to metastasize.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">Hugging Face incident\u003c/a> over the summer, when hundreds of autonomous AI agents running inside an isolated OpenAI testing environment broke out of their sandbox and hacked into another company, loomed large over the hearing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We train agents in ways that we do not understand well, ways that can teach unintended goals,” \u003ca href=\"https://metr.org/blog/2026-09-30-chris-painter-senate-testimony/\">testified\u003c/a> Chris Painter, president of METR, a Berkeley-based research nonprofit that investigated the incident inside OpenAI. “When we make those agents more intelligent, unintended goals can have dramatic real-world consequences.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102330\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Model Evaluation and Threat Research (METR) President Chris Painter speaks during a Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee hearing in Dirksen Senate Office Building on Sept. 30, 2026, in Washington, D.C. AI experts and former industry members spoke in front of the Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee as some have called for a slowdown in AI development amid rising safety concerns.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Finn Gomez/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102330\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Model Evaluation and Threat Research (METR) President Chris Painter speaks during a Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee hearing in Dirksen Senate Office Building on Sept. 30, 2026, in Washington, D.C. AI experts and former industry members spoke in front of the Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee as some have called for a slowdown in AI development amid rising safety concerns.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Finn Gomez/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Painter noted that his team was able to investigate only because OpenAI agreed to it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Companies have no obligation to bring us in,” he said, adding, “There isn’t any requirement that companies disclose things that they’re seeing inside of their AI labs.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Daniel Kokotajlo, a former OpenAI researcher who now leads the Berkeley-based AI Futures Project, was blunter. He told the committee he left OpenAI partly because he lost confidence the company would behave responsibly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Daniel Kokotajlo, a former OpenAI researcher who now leads the Berkeley-based AI Futures Project, was blunter. He told the committee he left OpenAI partly because he lost confidence the company would behave responsibly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If we vastly improve our practices and reform the way that we do things, including improving our cybersecurity, we might be able to maintain control of current systems — like today’s AIs,” Kokotajlo said, before adding that “the AIs are getting very powerful very quickly, and we are not currently on track to keep up as they dramatically improve.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of the Republican members of the subcommittee expressed concerns that putting the brakes on AI development in the U.S. might allow Chinese AI developers to leapfrog them in the race to build ever more sophisticated models. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some of the Republican members of the subcommittee expressed concerns that putting the brakes on AI development in the U.S. might allow Chinese AI developers to leapfrog them in the race to build ever more sophisticated models. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I do think that the Communist Party of China is our adversary and that we are in a competition with them,” Kokotajlo said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But if companies keep handing their AIs more responsibility, including monitoring each other and doing safety research, he warned, “then we will have a new adversary that’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025504/why-openai-says-chinas-deepseek-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be\">more powerful than China\u003c/a>, and that would be the AIs themselves. “We don’t need to slow down everything,” he added, “but in particular, we need to slow down this mad scramble towards recursively self-improving AIs.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But if companies keep handing their AIs more responsibility, including monitoring each other and doing safety research, he warned, “then we will have a new adversary that’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025504/why-openai-says-chinas-deepseek-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be\">more powerful than China\u003c/a>, and that would be the AIs themselves. “We don’t need to slow down everything,” he added, “but in particular, we need to slow down this mad scramble towards recursively self-improving AIs.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/09/eff-lawmakers-ground-ai-cybersecurity-rules-best-practices\">urged\u003c/a> lawmakers this month to require sandboxing and monitoring for risky AI testing, as well as independent, public investigations of serious security incidents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/09/eff-lawmakers-ground-ai-cybersecurity-rules-best-practices\">urged\u003c/a> lawmakers this month to require sandboxing and monitoring for risky AI testing, as well as independent, public investigations of serious security incidents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“As with any technology regulation, those regulations targeting cybersecurity practices at AI labs must be careful, precise, and practical,” EFF’s Director of Federal Affairs India McKinney wrote KQED. “Also, any proposal must be flexible enough to evolve with changing technology. Tying any new mandates to evidence-backed security protocols also protects the public without impeding future AI development.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“As with any technology regulation, those regulations targeting cybersecurity practices at AI labs must be careful, precise, and practical,” EFF’s Director of Federal Affairs India McKinney wrote KQED. “Also, any proposal must be flexible enough to evolve with changing technology. Tying any new mandates to evidence-backed security protocols also protects the public without impeding future AI development.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The hearing came one day after President Donald Trump and executives from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Nvidia, Meta and SpaceXAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-announces-accord-signed-by-top-ai-companies-to-self-police-development\">signed\u003c/a> a voluntary, nonbinding accord on AI safety. The companies pledged to put “robust” controls on their models, appoint internal teams to oversee those controls, work with independent outside auditors and meet regularly to set industry safety standards.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The hearing came one day after President Donald Trump and executives from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Nvidia, Meta and SpaceXAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-announces-accord-signed-by-top-ai-companies-to-self-police-development\">signed\u003c/a> a voluntary, nonbinding accord on AI safety. The companies pledged to put “robust” controls on their models, appoint internal teams to oversee those controls, work with independent outside auditors and meet regularly to set industry safety standards.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hawley pressed for making AI companies legally liable for harm their agents cause, possibly by updating the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you break it, you pay for it,” he said. “If you cause damage, you clean it up.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hawley and Blumenthal, longtime advocates for legislation to bring Silicon Valley companies to heel, have proposed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/2938/text\">Artificial Intelligence Risk Evaluation Act\u003c/a>, which would have a government agency test AI systems against a safety standard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the House, two California members introduced competing bills on the same day in July. \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "At a Senate subcommittee hearing, safety advocates decried the lack of federal action to protect Americans from fast-evolving AI-enabled threats.",
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"title": "Experts Urge Federal Lawmakers to Regulate AI. Will Anyone Heed Their Alarm? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>AI researchers and safety advocates warned a group of U.S. senators on Wednesday that Silicon Valley developers are racing to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101819/sam-altman-announces-new-openai-agents-that-act-before-you-ask\">build and release\u003c/a> systems they don’t fully understand or control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Senate subcommittee \u003ca href=\"https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/dmdcc/hearings/rogue-ai-securing-the-homeland-against-ai-agent-attacks/\">hearing\u003c/a>, titled “Rogue AI: Securing the Homeland Against AI Agent Attacks,” focused on recent events where AI agents demonstrated a shocking level of agency.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every day you turn on the television, it seems like AI is doing something else bad,” said subcommittee chair Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Missouri, introducing the hearing. “Setting up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12101186/its-not-illegal-for-california-police-to-misuse-flock-data-san-jose-leaders-want-to-change-that\">surveillance camera networks\u003c/a> nationwide, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915506/how-data-center-backlash-is-reshaping-politics\">data centers\u003c/a> in all of our states, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973657/ai-software-vulnerable-to-attacks-by-both-professional-and-amateur-hackers\">hacking, hacking, hacking\u003c/a>. The reports of cyberattacks just continue to metastasize.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12092162/how-openais-models-escaped-their-sandbox-and-slipped-past-californias-ai-law\">Hugging Face incident\u003c/a> over the summer, when hundreds of autonomous AI agents running inside an isolated OpenAI testing environment broke out of their sandbox and hacked into another company, loomed large over the hearing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We train agents in ways that we do not understand well, ways that can teach unintended goals,” \u003ca href=\"https://metr.org/blog/2026-09-30-chris-painter-senate-testimony/\">testified\u003c/a> Chris Painter, president of METR, a Berkeley-based research nonprofit that investigated the incident inside OpenAI. “When we make those agents more intelligent, unintended goals can have dramatic real-world consequences.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12102330\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/Chris-Painter-Getty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Model Evaluation and Threat Research (METR) President Chris Painter speaks during a Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee hearing in Dirksen Senate Office Building on Sept. 30, 2026, in Washington, D.C. AI experts and former industry members spoke in front of the Senate Homeland Security Subcommittee as some have called for a slowdown in AI development amid rising safety concerns. (Finn Gomez/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Painter noted that his team was able to investigate only because OpenAI agreed to it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Companies have no obligation to bring us in,” he said, adding, “There isn’t any requirement that companies disclose things that they’re seeing inside of their AI labs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Daniel Kokotajlo, a former OpenAI researcher who now leads the Berkeley-based AI Futures Project, was blunter. He told the committee he left OpenAI partly because he lost confidence the company would behave responsibly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we vastly improve our practices and reform the way that we do things, including improving our cybersecurity, we might be able to maintain control of current systems — like today’s AIs,” Kokotajlo said, before adding that “the AIs are getting very powerful very quickly, and we are not currently on track to keep up as they dramatically improve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the Republican members of the subcommittee expressed concerns that putting the brakes on AI development in the U.S. might allow Chinese AI developers to leapfrog them in the race to build ever more sophisticated models. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think that the Communist Party of China is our adversary and that we are in a competition with them,” Kokotajlo said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if companies keep handing their AIs more responsibility, including monitoring each other and doing safety research, he warned, “then we will have a new adversary that’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025504/why-openai-says-chinas-deepseek-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be\">more powerful than China\u003c/a>, and that would be the AIs themselves. “We don’t need to slow down everything,” he added, “but in particular, we need to slow down this mad scramble towards recursively self-improving AIs.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/09/eff-lawmakers-ground-ai-cybersecurity-rules-best-practices\">urged\u003c/a> lawmakers this month to require sandboxing and monitoring for risky AI testing, as well as independent, public investigations of serious security incidents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As with any technology regulation, those regulations targeting cybersecurity practices at AI labs must be careful, precise, and practical,” EFF’s Director of Federal Affairs India McKinney wrote KQED. “Also, any proposal must be flexible enough to evolve with changing technology. Tying any new mandates to evidence-backed security protocols also protects the public without impeding future AI development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The hearing came one day after President Donald Trump and executives from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Nvidia, Meta and SpaceXAI \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-trump-announces-accord-signed-by-top-ai-companies-to-self-police-development\">signed\u003c/a> a voluntary, nonbinding accord on AI safety. The companies pledged to put “robust” controls on their models, appoint internal teams to oversee those controls, work with independent outside auditors and meet regularly to set industry safety standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Wednesday’s hearing, Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Connecticut, dismissed the pledge as “totally secret.” If the companies’ own auditors find violations, he said, “there’s no requirement that it be disclosed to the public.” He then asked the panel whether anyone thought “a completely voluntary system with only ‘moral responsibility’ is going to be enough to deal with the dangers.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092368\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Hugging Face logo is seen displayed on a mobile phone screen with the AI revolution symbol in the background. (Idrees Abbas/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The witnesses shook their heads.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley pressed for making AI companies legally liable for harm their agents cause, possibly by updating the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you break it, you pay for it,” he said. “If you cause damage, you clean it up.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hawley and Blumenthal, longtime advocates for legislation to bring Silicon Valley companies to heel, have proposed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/2938/text\">Artificial Intelligence Risk Evaluation Act\u003c/a>, which would have a government agency test AI systems against a safety standard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the House, two California members introduced competing bills on the same day in July. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rep. Jay Obernolte, R-Big Bear Lake, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://franklin.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=1923\">FRONTIER Act\u003c/a>, which would require audits, incident reporting and catastrophic risk assessments for the largest AI developers. Rep. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, introduced the \u003ca href=\"https://lieu.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/reps-lieu-and-moran-introduce-bill-require-kill-switch-ai-systems-can\">AI Kill Switch Act\u003c/a>, which would require developers of the most powerful AI systems to be able to shut them down, and would let the Homeland Security secretary order a shutdown. Both bills have cosponsors from both parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the hearing, Hawley was pessimistic about lawmakers writing detailed rules. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I don’t have any confidence, zero, less than zero, in Congress’s ability to keep up with the technology, let alone anticipate it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "tech-is-spending-big-on-california-races-this-bay-area-group-wants-you-to-know",
"title": "Tech Is Spending Big on California Races. This Bay Area Group Wants You to Know",
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"headTitle": "Tech Is Spending Big on California Races. This Bay Area Group Wants You to Know | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>As voters grow increasingly concerned about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915506/how-data-center-backlash-is-reshaping-politics\">artificial intelligence and data centers\u003c/a>, a progressive Bay Area nonprofit is spending $1 million to spotlight the influence of Big Tech in California’s legislative elections. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tech interests are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12077445/how-ai-and-tech-are-changing-the-campaign-finance-game\">becoming a bigger force\u003c/a> in down-ballot races. So far this year, two tech-backed super PACs have already spent more than $24 million boosting mostly moderate Democrats across the state. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oakland-based TechEquity Action, meanwhile, is rolling out its million-dollar ad campaign this week targeting four districts where it expects tech to spend heavily during the final weeks before the general election. They are the North Bay’s Assembly District 12, Orange County’s Assembly District 68 and Los Angeles County’s Senate Districts 24 and 26.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We want to make sure that the public understands the role that these tech billionaires and companies are playing in not just elections, but in the lawmaking process, starting with trying to influence who gets put into the Legislature in the first place,” said Catherine Bracy, founder of TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2292\" height=\"2021\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10393727\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985.jpg 2292w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-400x352.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-800x705.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-1440x1269.jpg 1440w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2292px) 100vw, 2292px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tim Draper speaks at the Inaugural Palo Alto International Film Festival on Sept. 30, 2011 in Palo Alto, California. (Max Morse/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The money will buy mailers, ads on streaming services and partnerships with social media influencers targeting voters in those districts. TechEquity Action also lobbies in Sacramento for policies that aim to ensure the benefits of tech and AI growth are shared broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We … have seen very up close how much attention these companies and these billionaires are paying to influence laws in California,” Bracy said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grow California, the larger of the two tech-backed super PACs that have poured money into state races this year, is financed by billionaire \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098461/crypto-ceo-chris-larsen-donates-500000-to-support-political-moderate-in-supervisors-race\">Ripple Labs co-founder Chris Larsen\u003c/a> and billionaire venture capitalist Tim Draper. It has spent about $14.5 million so far this election cycle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California Leads, which has significant funding from Meta and Google, has spent nearly $10 million. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grow California declined to comment on TechEquity Action’s ad campaign; California Leads did not respond to a request for comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grow California, meanwhile, also launched an ad buy of more than $1 million this week for three of the districts targeted by TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Grow California’s mission is to reset the state legislature as a counterforce to the status quo,” Shaudi Fulp, the strategist directing Grow California, said in a statement to KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>An ad funded by TechEquity Action for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide/california/state-assembly-12th-district\">Assembly District 12\u003c/a>, the only Northern California race the group is spending in, calls out tech and AI billionaires as the “newest corporate special interests” with an agenda to “replace California jobs with AI, block laws that keep kids safe online and raise electricity and water prices with data centers.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bracy said California is where the country’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">AI guardrails\u003c/a> are most likely to take shape, and her group worries that Big Tech is trying to buy influence over those decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They’re going to invest whatever they need to invest in order to prevent these guardrails from being established so that they can exploit children, exploit workers, [and] create extremely risky technology that has the potential for existential harms,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jackie Elward, a progressive labor-backed candidate running to succeed Assemblymember Damon Connolly in District 12, applauds the group for taking on tech billionaires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099882\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536.png 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536-160x107.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536-1536x1024.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An attendee holds a sign before the start of a rally led by U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders, Independent of Vermont, during the campaign kickoff for the California Billionaire Tax Act at The Wiltern in Los Angeles, Feb. 18, 2026. (Patrick T. Fallon/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Good on them to sound the alarm because our constituents need to know,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the primary, Grow California spent $750,000 opposing Elward and $300,000 supporting Eric Lucan, a Marin County supervisor also running for the seat, according to independent expenditure reports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen an extraordinary amount of outside money spending in this race, including significant spending during the primary, when they smeared me,” Elward said. “I think transparency about who is trying to shape the outcome of legislative races is incredibly important.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lucan condemned the outside spending in the race on both sides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our democracy and our district deserves better,” Lucan said. “Outside spending, negative campaigning, it really has no place, and it’s something I will never engage in.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>TechEquity Action declined to state who is funding its ad campaign. The group said it is not required to file campaign finance reports because the ads don’t explicitly endorse or oppose candidates. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Fair Political Practices Commission is investigating an allegation made by a resident of District 12 that TechEquity Action violated state law by not correctly identifying itself on its mailers. The FPPC has not made any determinations yet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Raful, a real estate appraiser in San Rafael who donated to Lucan’s campaign, said he filed the complaint after receiving mailers from TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the things that always gets my goat is dark money,” Raful said. “People ought to be willing to stand up and call it out for what it is.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Elward said neither she nor her campaign has spoken to anyone from TechEquity Action, but she urges the group to disclose its funders. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People need to know who they are too, I mean, fairly,” Elward said. “No matter who is spending money in this race or on whose behalf, voters should have the information.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Oakland-based TechEquity Action, meanwhile, is rolling out its million-dollar ad campaign this week targeting four districts where it expects tech to spend heavily during the final weeks before the general election. They are the North Bay’s Assembly District 12, Orange County’s Assembly District 68 and Los Angeles County’s Senate Districts 24 and 26.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We want to make sure that the public understands the role that these tech billionaires and companies are playing in not just elections, but in the lawmaking process, starting with trying to influence who gets put into the Legislature in the first place,” said Catherine Bracy, founder of TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10393727\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985.jpg 2292w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-400x352.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-800x705.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-1440x1269.jpg 1440w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tim Draper speaks at the Inaugural Palo Alto International Film Festival on Sept. 30, 2011 in Palo Alto, California. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Max Morse/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The money will buy mailers, ads on streaming services and partnerships with social media influencers targeting voters in those districts. TechEquity Action also lobbies in Sacramento for policies that aim to ensure the benefits of tech and AI growth are shared broadly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We … have seen very up close how much attention these companies and these billionaires are paying to influence laws in California,” Bracy said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Grow California, the larger of the two tech-backed super PACs that have poured money into state races this year, is financed by billionaire \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098461/crypto-ceo-chris-larsen-donates-500000-to-support-political-moderate-in-supervisors-race\">Ripple Labs co-founder Chris Larsen\u003c/a> and billionaire venture capitalist Tim Draper. It has spent about $14.5 million so far this election cycle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Grow California declined to comment on TechEquity Action’s ad campaign; California Leads did not respond to a request for comment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Grow California’s mission is to reset the state legislature as a counterforce to the status quo,” Shaudi Fulp, the strategist directing Grow California, said in a statement to KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>An ad funded by TechEquity Action for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide/california/state-assembly-12th-district\">Assembly District 12\u003c/a>, the only Northern California race the group is spending in, calls out tech and AI billionaires as the “newest corporate special interests” with an agenda to “replace California jobs with AI, block laws that keep kids safe online and raise electricity and water prices with data centers.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They’re going to invest whatever they need to invest in order to prevent these guardrails from being established so that they can exploit children, exploit workers, [and] create extremely risky technology that has the potential for existential harms,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They’re going to invest whatever they need to invest in order to prevent these guardrails from being established so that they can exploit children, exploit workers, [and] create extremely risky technology that has the potential for existential harms,” she said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jackie Elward, a progressive labor-backed candidate running to succeed Assemblymember Damon Connolly in District 12, applauds the group for taking on tech billionaires.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jackie Elward, a progressive labor-backed candidate running to succeed Assemblymember Damon Connolly in District 12, applauds the group for taking on tech billionaires.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Good on them to sound the alarm because our constituents need to know,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the primary, Grow California spent $750,000 opposing Elward and $300,000 supporting Eric Lucan, a Marin County supervisor also running for the seat, according to independent expenditure reports.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen an extraordinary amount of outside money spending in this race, including significant spending during the primary, when they smeared me,” Elward said. “I think transparency about who is trying to shape the outcome of legislative races is incredibly important.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our democracy and our district deserves better,” Lucan said. “Outside spending, negative campaigning, it really has no place, and it’s something I will never engage in.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>TechEquity Action declined to state who is funding its ad campaign. The group said it is not required to file campaign finance reports because the ads don’t explicitly endorse or oppose candidates. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The California Fair Political Practices Commission is investigating an allegation made by a resident of District 12 that TechEquity Action violated state law by not correctly identifying itself on its mailers. The FPPC has not made any determinations yet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce Raful, a real estate appraiser in San Rafael who donated to Lucan’s campaign, said he filed the complaint after receiving mailers from TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Elward said neither she nor her campaign has spoken to anyone from TechEquity Action, but she urges the group to disclose its funders. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“People need to know who they are too, I mean, fairly,” Elward said. “No matter who is spending money in this race or on whose behalf, voters should have the information.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>As voters grow increasingly concerned about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101915506/how-data-center-backlash-is-reshaping-politics\">artificial intelligence and data centers\u003c/a>, a progressive Bay Area nonprofit is spending $1 million to spotlight the influence of Big Tech in California’s legislative elections. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tech interests are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12077445/how-ai-and-tech-are-changing-the-campaign-finance-game\">becoming a bigger force\u003c/a> in down-ballot races. So far this year, two tech-backed super PACs have already spent more than $24 million boosting mostly moderate Democrats across the state. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oakland-based TechEquity Action, meanwhile, is rolling out its million-dollar ad campaign this week targeting four districts where it expects tech to spend heavily during the final weeks before the general election. They are the North Bay’s Assembly District 12, Orange County’s Assembly District 68 and Los Angeles County’s Senate Districts 24 and 26.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We want to make sure that the public understands the role that these tech billionaires and companies are playing in not just elections, but in the lawmaking process, starting with trying to influence who gets put into the Legislature in the first place,” said Catherine Bracy, founder of TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2292\" height=\"2021\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-10393727\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985.jpg 2292w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-400x352.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-800x705.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/12/RS8168_127726920-e1420007401985-1440x1269.jpg 1440w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2292px) 100vw, 2292px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tim Draper speaks at the Inaugural Palo Alto International Film Festival on Sept. 30, 2011 in Palo Alto, California. (Max Morse/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The money will buy mailers, ads on streaming services and partnerships with social media influencers targeting voters in those districts. TechEquity Action also lobbies in Sacramento for policies that aim to ensure the benefits of tech and AI growth are shared broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We … have seen very up close how much attention these companies and these billionaires are paying to influence laws in California,” Bracy said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grow California, the larger of the two tech-backed super PACs that have poured money into state races this year, is financed by billionaire \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12098461/crypto-ceo-chris-larsen-donates-500000-to-support-political-moderate-in-supervisors-race\">Ripple Labs co-founder Chris Larsen\u003c/a> and billionaire venture capitalist Tim Draper. It has spent about $14.5 million so far this election cycle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California Leads, which has significant funding from Meta and Google, has spent nearly $10 million. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grow California declined to comment on TechEquity Action’s ad campaign; California Leads did not respond to a request for comment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grow California, meanwhile, also launched an ad buy of more than $1 million this week for three of the districts targeted by TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Grow California’s mission is to reset the state legislature as a counterforce to the status quo,” Shaudi Fulp, the strategist directing Grow California, said in a statement to KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>An ad funded by TechEquity Action for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide/california/state-assembly-12th-district\">Assembly District 12\u003c/a>, the only Northern California race the group is spending in, calls out tech and AI billionaires as the “newest corporate special interests” with an agenda to “replace California jobs with AI, block laws that keep kids safe online and raise electricity and water prices with data centers.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bracy said California is where the country’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100624/newsom-orders-california-agencies-to-develop-new-ai-safety-plans-after-rejecting-tougher-law\">AI guardrails\u003c/a> are most likely to take shape, and her group worries that Big Tech is trying to buy influence over those decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They’re going to invest whatever they need to invest in order to prevent these guardrails from being established so that they can exploit children, exploit workers, [and] create extremely risky technology that has the potential for existential harms,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jackie Elward, a progressive labor-backed candidate running to succeed Assemblymember Damon Connolly in District 12, applauds the group for taking on tech billionaires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099882\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536.png 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536-160x107.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/GettyImages-2261837536-1536x1024.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An attendee holds a sign before the start of a rally led by U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders, Independent of Vermont, during the campaign kickoff for the California Billionaire Tax Act at The Wiltern in Los Angeles, Feb. 18, 2026. (Patrick T. Fallon/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Good on them to sound the alarm because our constituents need to know,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the primary, Grow California spent $750,000 opposing Elward and $300,000 supporting Eric Lucan, a Marin County supervisor also running for the seat, according to independent expenditure reports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen an extraordinary amount of outside money spending in this race, including significant spending during the primary, when they smeared me,” Elward said. “I think transparency about who is trying to shape the outcome of legislative races is incredibly important.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lucan condemned the outside spending in the race on both sides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our democracy and our district deserves better,” Lucan said. “Outside spending, negative campaigning, it really has no place, and it’s something I will never engage in.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>TechEquity Action declined to state who is funding its ad campaign. The group said it is not required to file campaign finance reports because the ads don’t explicitly endorse or oppose candidates. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Fair Political Practices Commission is investigating an allegation made by a resident of District 12 that TechEquity Action violated state law by not correctly identifying itself on its mailers. The FPPC has not made any determinations yet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Raful, a real estate appraiser in San Rafael who donated to Lucan’s campaign, said he filed the complaint after receiving mailers from TechEquity Action. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the things that always gets my goat is dark money,” Raful said. “People ought to be willing to stand up and call it out for what it is.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Elward said neither she nor her campaign has spoken to anyone from TechEquity Action, but she urges the group to disclose its funders. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People need to know who they are too, I mean, fairly,” Elward said. “No matter who is spending money in this race or on whose behalf, voters should have the information.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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},
"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/reveal300px.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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"link": "/radio/program/reveal",
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"rss": "http://feeds.revealradio.org/revealpodcast"
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"order": 16
},
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},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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