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"content": "\u003cp>European regulators fined \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> 890 million euros, or about $1 billion, on Thursday over business practices that federal judges in the U.S. have been ruling against for years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regulators in Brussels concluded that Google gave its own shopping, travel and translation services prime placement in search results while unfairly pushing competitors down the page and that Google’s Play store barred app developers from telling their own customers about cheaper ways to pay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The penalty is the Silicon Valley giant’s first under the European Union’s 2022 Digital Markets Act, a sweeping law passed to address the power of the world’s biggest tech companies. Google has 60 days to comply, or it could face further penalties of up to 5% of its worldwide revenue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://publicpolicy.google/article/search-play-google-statement/\">blog post\u003c/a>, Google & Alphabet President of Global Affairs Kent Walker characterized the European move as “product degradation driven by a small group of self-serving complainants.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This implementation of the DMA continues to break everyday products,” Walker wrote. “To comply, we are having to strip away real-time Search features Europeans love — like instant pricing and direct availability for hotels, flights, and restaurants — and dismantle safety protections on Google Play.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12055857\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">European regulators fined Google over favoring its own services in search results and restricting app developers. Both practices have already been fought over in Bay Area federal court. (Jeff Chiu/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The EU action echoes a series of antitrust rulings against Google in the United States, where — with Congress and state legislatures largely \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\">stalemated on tech regulation\u003c/a> — challenges to Google’s dominance have played out in court instead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April 2025, a judge in Virginia found Google \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036411/googles-ad-dominance-is-illegal-federal-judge-rules\">illegally monopolized the ad technology\u003c/a> that places banner ads across much of the open web. That case is currently in the remedy and fallout phase following U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema’s liability ruling. It’s still unclear whether she will force a structural breakup or opt for behavioral restrictions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August 2024, a federal judge in Washington ruled Google \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11999009/landmark-google-antitrust-case-could-shake-up-silicon-valley-heres-what-to-know\">illegally maintained a monopoly over internet search\u003c/a>, and the following September, ordered it to stop signing exclusive default deals and to share search data with rivals. Both Google and the Justice Department are appealing at the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Private lawsuits have also sought to address the company’s practices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August 2024, San Francisco-based Yelp sued Google over \u003ca href=\"https://trust.yelp.com/yelp-v-google/yelp-v-google-case-materials/\">self-preferencing\u003c/a> in local search results. Last month, a magistrate judge in San José held Yelp doesn’t have to prove Google is a monopoly. That case is pending in San José and is not scheduled to reach a jury until 2028.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In December of 2023, a San Francisco jury sided with \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1197964842\">Epic Games\u003c/a> over Google’s grip on Android app distribution, the case behind this week’s changes to the Play Store. The resulting injunction from U.S. Judge James Donato began forcing the Play store to open to rival app stores in the U.S. on Wednesday, one day before Brussels levied a fine on Google. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yelp welcomed the EU decision. 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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In April 2025, a judge in Virginia found Google \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036411/googles-ad-dominance-is-illegal-federal-judge-rules\">illegally monopolized the ad technology\u003c/a> that places banner ads across much of the open web. That case is currently in the remedy and fallout phase following U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema’s liability ruling. It’s still unclear whether she will force a structural breakup or opt for behavioral restrictions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In August 2024, San Francisco-based Yelp sued Google over \u003ca href=\"https://trust.yelp.com/yelp-v-google/yelp-v-google-case-materials/\">self-preferencing\u003c/a> in local search results. Last month, a magistrate judge in San José held Yelp doesn’t have to prove Google is a monopoly. That case is pending in San José and is not scheduled to reach a jury until 2028.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In December of 2023, a San Francisco jury sided with \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1197964842\">Epic Games\u003c/a> over Google’s grip on Android app distribution, the case behind this week’s changes to the Play Store. The resulting injunction from U.S. Judge James Donato began forcing the Play store to open to rival app stores in the U.S. on Wednesday, one day before Brussels levied a fine on Google. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yelp welcomed the EU decision. David Segal, the company’s vice president of public policy, said in a statement that Google has “consistently chosen to unilaterally degrade its own user experience by removing functionality, which is the telltale mark of a monopolist.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tejas Narechania, a law professor at UC Berkeley who studies technology policy and platform regulation, said the European ruling is unlikely to have direct legal consequences for U.S. cases. Nonetheless, \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Google lost, and I think that perception will affect [U.S.] juries going forward.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "European regulators fined Google over favoring its own services in search results and restricting app developers. Both practices have already been fought over in Bay Area federal court.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>European regulators fined \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> 890 million euros, or about $1 billion, on Thursday over business practices that federal judges in the U.S. have been ruling against for years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Regulators in Brussels concluded that Google gave its own shopping, travel and translation services prime placement in search results while unfairly pushing competitors down the page and that Google’s Play store barred app developers from telling their own customers about cheaper ways to pay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The penalty is the Silicon Valley giant’s first under the European Union’s 2022 Digital Markets Act, a sweeping law passed to address the power of the world’s biggest tech companies. Google has 60 days to comply, or it could face further penalties of up to 5% of its worldwide revenue. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://publicpolicy.google/article/search-play-google-statement/\">blog post\u003c/a>, Google & Alphabet President of Global Affairs Kent Walker characterized the European move as “product degradation driven by a small group of self-serving complainants.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This implementation of the DMA continues to break everyday products,” Walker wrote. “To comply, we are having to strip away real-time Search features Europeans love — like instant pricing and direct availability for hotels, flights, and restaurants — and dismantle safety protections on Google Play.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12055857\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/111215_Google-Campus_AP_CM_01-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">European regulators fined Google over favoring its own services in search results and restricting app developers. Both practices have already been fought over in Bay Area federal court. (Jeff Chiu/AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The EU action echoes a series of antitrust rulings against Google in the United States, where — with Congress and state legislatures largely \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\">stalemated on tech regulation\u003c/a> — challenges to Google’s dominance have played out in court instead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April 2025, a judge in Virginia found Google \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036411/googles-ad-dominance-is-illegal-federal-judge-rules\">illegally monopolized the ad technology\u003c/a> that places banner ads across much of the open web. That case is currently in the remedy and fallout phase following U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema’s liability ruling. It’s still unclear whether she will force a structural breakup or opt for behavioral restrictions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August 2024, a federal judge in Washington ruled Google \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11999009/landmark-google-antitrust-case-could-shake-up-silicon-valley-heres-what-to-know\">illegally maintained a monopoly over internet search\u003c/a>, and the following September, ordered it to stop signing exclusive default deals and to share search data with rivals. Both Google and the Justice Department are appealing at the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Private lawsuits have also sought to address the company’s practices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In August 2024, San Francisco-based Yelp sued Google over \u003ca href=\"https://trust.yelp.com/yelp-v-google/yelp-v-google-case-materials/\">self-preferencing\u003c/a> in local search results. Last month, a magistrate judge in San José held Yelp doesn’t have to prove Google is a monopoly. That case is pending in San José and is not scheduled to reach a jury until 2028.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In December of 2023, a San Francisco jury sided with \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1197964842\">Epic Games\u003c/a> over Google’s grip on Android app distribution, the case behind this week’s changes to the Play Store. The resulting injunction from U.S. Judge James Donato began forcing the Play store to open to rival app stores in the U.S. on Wednesday, one day before Brussels levied a fine on Google. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yelp welcomed the EU decision. David Segal, the company’s vice president of public policy, said in a statement that Google has “consistently chosen to unilaterally degrade its own user experience by removing functionality, which is the telltale mark of a monopolist.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tejas Narechania, a law professor at UC Berkeley who studies technology policy and platform regulation, said the European ruling is unlikely to have direct legal consequences for U.S. cases. Nonetheless, \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Google lost, and I think that perception will affect [U.S.] juries going forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“From a technical legal perspective, the EU decision doesn’t set a precedent that Yelp or Epic could use in their lawsuits,” Narechania said. “But I think it contributes to a perception and atmosphere that some of these large companies are not always acting in consumers’ best interests and are sometimes acting unfairly.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Narechania questioned whether $1 billion registers at a company Google’s size, calling it roughly a day’s worth of profit and less than 1% of what Google will spend on AI infrastructure this year.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Staff at the San Francisco-Based Foundation Behind Wikipedia Demand Union Recognition",
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"content": "\u003cp>Workers at the Wikimedia Foundation — the San Francisco-based foundation that hosts \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/wikipedia\">Wikipedia\u003c/a> — demanded voluntary recognition of their union, Wiki Workers United U.S., on Monday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The staff who run the platform say they want a stronger voice in their workplace, better job protections and an end to common practices that make life “precarious for everyday workers,” according to Jeremy Bernick, one of the union organizers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They gave the foundation until Friday to respond to their request for recognition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia, the world’s largest encyclopedia, hosts roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">65 million entries\u003c/a> in \u003ca href=\"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias\">364 languages\u003c/a>. It is considered a backbone of the internet — boasting an average of 508 million views per day for the past decade, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/01/13/wikipedia-at-25-what-the-data-tells-us/#how-many-people-visit-wikipedia\">Pew Research Center\u003c/a>. While Wikipedia is the nonprofit’s largest and most well-known project, the Wikimedia Foundation, which did not respond to requests for comment, supports over a dozen related “sister” projects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092438\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Wikipedia homepage on March 11, 2011. (SD619/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said that this campaign is the workers’ third attempt at unionizing and the farthest they’ve gotten in the process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think there is a lot of fear right now,” Bernick said — highlighting the Trump administration’s attacks on public media, the cost of living crisis and concerns about artificial intelligence as some of the factors driving more staff toward unionization. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As employers make decisions about how and when to integrate AI, Bernick wants to see “workers in the loop.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without our say, these systems are not really effective,” Bernick said. “A lot of the time they can make our work less impactful or more strenuous.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release from the Communications Workers of America — Wiki Workers United’s parent union — also said that “recent events at the Wikimedia Foundation have drastically escalated worker concerns regarding transparency, trust, the organization’s future, and leadership’s commitment to the free knowledge movement.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May, the foundation disbanded the Community Tech team, the bridge between the foundation and the volunteers who update the articles. The decision sparked major backlash, in part, because the team was largely composed of union members, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Workers_United_solidarity\">petition\u003c/a> written by Wikipedia editors with 1,190 signatures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia editors are a group of nearly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">280,000 volunteers\u003c/a> who write and edit the articles. The petition states that the undersigned editors, who have cumulatively made over 17,582,148 edits, according to the page, will strike in support of the union if called. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This demand for recognition comes after the U.K. chapter of Wiki Workers United made a similar request of the foundation last month, according to the press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union hopes to be a sign that it’s OK for tech workers to ask for protections, Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You don’t have to accept the status quo,” Bernick said. “We see having a union as sort of a basic right.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wikipedia, the world’s largest encyclopedia, hosts roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">65 million entries\u003c/a> in \u003ca href=\"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias\">364 languages\u003c/a>. It is considered a backbone of the internet — boasting an average of 508 million views per day for the past decade, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/01/13/wikipedia-at-25-what-the-data-tells-us/#how-many-people-visit-wikipedia\">Pew Research Center\u003c/a>. While Wikipedia is the nonprofit’s largest and most well-known project, the Wikimedia Foundation, which did not respond to requests for comment, supports over a dozen related “sister” projects. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A press release from the Communications Workers of America — Wiki Workers United’s parent union — also said that “recent events at the Wikimedia Foundation have drastically escalated worker concerns regarding transparency, trust, the organization’s future, and leadership’s commitment to the free knowledge movement.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The union hopes to be a sign that it’s OK for tech workers to ask for protections, Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“You don’t have to accept the status quo,” Bernick said. “We see having a union as sort of a basic right.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Workers at the Wikimedia Foundation — the San Francisco-based foundation that hosts \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/wikipedia\">Wikipedia\u003c/a> — demanded voluntary recognition of their union, Wiki Workers United U.S., on Monday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The staff who run the platform say they want a stronger voice in their workplace, better job protections and an end to common practices that make life “precarious for everyday workers,” according to Jeremy Bernick, one of the union organizers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They gave the foundation until Friday to respond to their request for recognition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia, the world’s largest encyclopedia, hosts roughly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">65 million entries\u003c/a> in \u003ca href=\"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias\">364 languages\u003c/a>. It is considered a backbone of the internet — boasting an average of 508 million views per day for the past decade, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/01/13/wikipedia-at-25-what-the-data-tells-us/#how-many-people-visit-wikipedia\">Pew Research Center\u003c/a>. While Wikipedia is the nonprofit’s largest and most well-known project, the Wikimedia Foundation, which did not respond to requests for comment, supports over a dozen related “sister” projects. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092438\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/WikipediaGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Wikipedia homepage on March 11, 2011. (SD619/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bernick said that this campaign is the workers’ third attempt at unionizing and the farthest they’ve gotten in the process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think there is a lot of fear right now,” Bernick said — highlighting the Trump administration’s attacks on public media, the cost of living crisis and concerns about artificial intelligence as some of the factors driving more staff toward unionization. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As employers make decisions about how and when to integrate AI, Bernick wants to see “workers in the loop.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Without our say, these systems are not really effective,” Bernick said. “A lot of the time they can make our work less impactful or more strenuous.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A press release from the Communications Workers of America — Wiki Workers United’s parent union — also said that “recent events at the Wikimedia Foundation have drastically escalated worker concerns regarding transparency, trust, the organization’s future, and leadership’s commitment to the free knowledge movement.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May, the foundation disbanded the Community Tech team, the bridge between the foundation and the volunteers who update the articles. The decision sparked major backlash, in part, because the team was largely composed of union members, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Workers_United_solidarity\">petition\u003c/a> written by Wikipedia editors with 1,190 signatures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wikipedia editors are a group of nearly \u003ca href=\"https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-00074-1\">280,000 volunteers\u003c/a> who write and edit the articles. The petition states that the undersigned editors, who have cumulatively made over 17,582,148 edits, according to the page, will strike in support of the union if called. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This demand for recognition comes after the U.K. chapter of Wiki Workers United made a similar request of the foundation last month, according to the press release. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union hopes to be a sign that it’s OK for tech workers to ask for protections, Bernick said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You don’t have to accept the status quo,” Bernick said. “We see having a union as sort of a basic right.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "How OpenAI’s Models Escaped Their Sandbox and Slipped Past California's AI Law",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/open-ai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/hugging-face-model-evaluation-security-incident/\"> this week said\u003c/a> more than one of its models — three, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-23/openai-models-lurked-in-hugging-face-system-for-hours-undetected?srnd=homepage-americas\">\u003cem>Bloomberg\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — attacked Hugging Face, a popular repository for open-source AI tools — marking one of the first publicly disclosed cases of frontier AI models autonomously cyberattacking another company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The disclosure came days after Hugging Face \u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/security-incident-july-2026\">revealed\u003c/a> it was breached in a hack by a “malicious dataset,” which intruded into the AI company’s software to run code. The campaign executed a flurry of more than 17,000 automated actions in a matter of hours, the post said. It’s still unclear if Hugging Face customer or partner data was taken. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This matches the ‘agentic attacker’ scenario the industry has been forecasting,” Hugging Face wrote on July 16.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said an investigation showed the incident was driven by a combination of models — “including GPT‑5.6 Sol and an even more capable pre-release model.” The company said it’s working with Hugging Face to produce a more thorough report of what happened.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s announcement came one day after the San Francisco-based frontier AI developer disclosed a separate incident in which it paused another pre-release model that had escaped what the industry calls “a sandbox” — an isolated environment with no path to the open internet, except for a single internal service that fetches software packages — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-models-escaped-containment-and-hacked-huggingface/\">posted\u003c/a> to GitHub. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last April, a researcher challenged an early version of Anthropic’s Mythos model to break out of an isolated system and message back. Mythos did, and then \u003ca href=\"https://www.mondaymomentum.io/p/the-ai-that-broke-out-of-its-cage\">went further\u003c/a>, building a multistep process to reach the wider internet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">frontier AI law\u003c/a>, the first of its kind in the country, obliges the largest developers to tell the state about critical safety incidents, but only ones that kill or injure someone or that cause catastrophic harm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It expressly excludes the kind of safety evaluation OpenAI was running when its models got loose. Which leaves a question nobody in Sacramento or Washington can answer: how often have frontier models in development gone rogue at companies that decided not to mention it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This was one of the topics I was focused on when I worked at OpenAI: what happens when AI models become good enough to reward-hack their way through the infrastructure they use to accomplish their objectives?” Ariel Herbert-Voss, OpenAI’s first security hire, wrote KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a really difficult problem to defend against and is one of the reasons I left to start my own company,” Herbert-Voss, now the founder of an automated offensive cybersecurity company called RunSybil, said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a really remarkable and, I think, fair to say scary event,“ said Nathan Calvin, general counsel at safety advocate EncodeAI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists and AI researchers have warned for years of the possibility that AI systems could go rogue and do unpredictable and unintended things. AI developers commonly test safety with so-called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cyberpedia/what-is-ai-red-teaming\">red teams\u003c/a>” that try to break or trick machine learning models, like chatbots, to find hidden flaws. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092368\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Hugging Face logo is seen displayed on a mobile phone screen with the AI revolution symbol in the background. (Idrees Abbas/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In certain circumstances, AI will try to break out of their sandboxes or otherwise do things that were not what the creator intended,” Calvin said. “But this really is the first very big example of that happening, at scale, with a really highly capable AI model in a way that actually harmed a third party.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to OpenAI’s account, the company was running an internal evaluation designed to measure how good its models are at hacking. To get a true reading, OpenAI deliberately switched off the safety filters that normally stop its models from carrying out cyberattacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The models were confined to a so-called “sandbox,” an isolated environment with no route to the open internet except OpenAI’s one internal service that fetches software libraries from public repositories. The models found a previously unknown flaw in that service, exploited it, escalated their privileges and moved from machine to machine inside OpenAI’s research network until they reached one with internet access. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Once the models broke out onto the open internet, according to OpenAI, they reasoned that Hugging Face might be storing the answers to the test they were trying to pass. Hugging Face’s credentials and production database aren’t on the public internet any more than a bank’s vault sits on a sidewalk, but the models broke into Hugging Face using stolen credentials, among other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01-1536x1024.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">OpenAI restructured to a for-profit company in a move tied to an agreement with California Attorney General Rob Bonta. Company CEO Sam Altman participates in a discussion in San Francisco on Nov. 16, 2023. (Photo by Eric Risberg, AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In short: The models were told to hack. They were not told to leave the building or to break into another company’s servers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hugging Face detected the intrusion and shut it down on its own, days before OpenAI connected the attack to its own testing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s quite mind-blowing that all of this happened autonomously!“ Hugging Face Chief Executive Clement Delangue wrote on social media platform \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/ClementDelangue/status/2079670308156645882\">X\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In its blog post, OpenAI wrote, “This incident points to the need to further strengthen our model’s alignment, cyber protections during evaluation time and monitoring during internal testing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Future of Life Institute — a nonprofit which issues a biannual risk assessment of nine leading AI companies — recently warned that many of the companies building frontier models are quietly walking back safety commitments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the group’s \u003ca href=\"https://futureoflife.org/ai-safety-index-summer-2026/\">most recent\u003c/a> AI Safety Index, Anthropic, OpenAI, Google DeepMind and Meta all weakened or abandoned promises to pause development if certain red lines were approached, even while publicly suggesting they were amenable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled-e1781542152687.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12058035\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Close-up of phone screen displaying Anthropic Claude, a Large Language Model (LLM) powered generative artificial intelligence chatbot in Lafayette, California, on June 27, 2024. (Smith Collection/Gado via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an email, KQED asked Hamza Chaudhry, who leads AI and national security work at Future of Life, to imagine it was not OpenAI’s software gone rogue but a foreign state, intentionally executing an unauthorized intrusion into a private company’s production infrastructure, exploiting cybersecurity vulnerabilities, stealing live credentials and accessing a production database. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We would likely call this a dangerous act of cyber-espionage,” he wrote — a likely criminal violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which “would draw a threat group designation and eventually an indictment or sanctions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to KQED’s request for comment, but a spokesperson told \u003cem>Bloomberg \u003c/em>the company communicated with law enforcement and other government authorities about the incident.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fact that Google DeepMind, Meta, Mistral, xAI and Chinese AI model developers haven’t revealed similar events doesn’t necessarily mean they haven’t happened. OpenAI and Anthropic are the only two frontier model developers that have publicly disclosed containment failures. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There is no mandatory public disclosure regime in force, like the one in California that requires \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11992954/cybersecurity-expert-shares-tips-for-dublin-based-patelco-credit-union-customers-after-ransomware-attack\">hacked companies to reveal\u003c/a> there’s been a data breach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12036125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. (Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Congressional candidate and state Sen. Scott Wiener wrote two AI frontier model safety bills. Gov. Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\">vetoed\u003c/a> Wiener’s first effort, arguing in his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> that “By focusing only on the most expensive and large-scale models, SB 1047 establishes a regulatory framework that could give the public a false sense of security about controlling this fast-moving technology.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The next year, Newsom signed Wiener’s second at-bat, but only after the bill was softened to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">overcome industry pushback\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">law\u003c/a>, which took effect Jan. 1, requires developers of the most powerful AI models to notify the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services of any “critical safety incident“ within 15 days of discovering it — which is not the same as reporting the incident to the public. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener told KQED he still thinks the law is strong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We worked very hard with the governor to produce a bill that is meaningful and impactful, and that he would sign,“ he said, adding he doesn’t consider the work done, because AI continues to evolve at a rapid pace. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12069061\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Scott Wiener, a candidate for California’s 11th Congressional District, participates in a forum with other candidates at UC Law San Francisco on Jan. 7, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI, he said, is “likely the most powerful technology in human history, and we need to make sure that we are both understanding the risks and taking them seriously, so that we can get ahead of them.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Calvin likened the Hugging Face hack to the cyclospora outbreak linked to, but not confirmed as originating from, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091770/california-based-taylor-farms-recalls-lettuce-shipped-to-27-states-over-cyclospora-risk\">Taylor Farms\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That California-based company has said it’s removing its lettuce indefinitely while the FDA investigation continues. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And OpenAI is like, ‘Maybe it’ll happen again. Maybe it’ll get worse. We don’t really know,“ Calvin said. “Your AI, again, hacked out of its box and hacked into another company, and you’re saying that you don’t know how to stop it from doing that again? That seems pretty nuts,” Calvin said.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/open-ai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/hugging-face-model-evaluation-security-incident/\"> this week said\u003c/a> more than one of its models — three, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-23/openai-models-lurked-in-hugging-face-system-for-hours-undetected?srnd=homepage-americas\">\u003cem>Bloomberg\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — attacked Hugging Face, a popular repository for open-source AI tools — marking one of the first publicly disclosed cases of frontier AI models autonomously cyberattacking another company. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/open-ai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/hugging-face-model-evaluation-security-incident/\"> this week said\u003c/a> more than one of its models — three, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-23/openai-models-lurked-in-hugging-face-system-for-hours-undetected?srnd=homepage-americas\">\u003cem>Bloomberg\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — attacked Hugging Face, a popular repository for open-source AI tools — marking one of the first publicly disclosed cases of frontier AI models autonomously cyberattacking another company. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The disclosure came days after Hugging Face \u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/security-incident-july-2026\">revealed\u003c/a> it was breached in a hack by a “malicious dataset,” which intruded into the AI company’s software to run code. The campaign executed a flurry of more than 17,000 automated actions in a matter of hours, the post said. It’s still unclear if Hugging Face customer or partner data was taken. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The disclosure came days after Hugging Face \u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/security-incident-july-2026\">revealed\u003c/a> it was breached in a hack by a “malicious dataset,” which intruded into the AI company’s software to run code. The campaign executed a flurry of more than 17,000 automated actions in a matter of hours, the post said. It’s still unclear if Hugging Face customer or partner data was taken. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This matches the ‘agentic attacker’ scenario the industry has been forecasting,” Hugging Face wrote on July 16.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“This matches the ‘agentic attacker’ scenario the industry has been forecasting,” Hugging Face wrote on July 16.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI said an investigation showed the incident was driven by a combination of models — “including GPT‑5.6 Sol and an even more capable pre-release model.” The company said it’s working with Hugging Face to produce a more thorough report of what happened.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s announcement came one day after the San Francisco-based frontier AI developer disclosed a separate incident in which it paused another pre-release model that had escaped what the industry calls “a sandbox” — an isolated environment with no path to the open internet, except for a single internal service that fetches software packages — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-models-escaped-containment-and-hacked-huggingface/\">posted\u003c/a> to GitHub. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s announcement came one day after the San Francisco-based frontier AI developer disclosed a separate incident in which it paused another pre-release model that had escaped what the industry calls “a sandbox” — an isolated environment with no path to the open internet, except for a single internal service that fetches software packages — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-models-escaped-containment-and-hacked-huggingface/\">posted\u003c/a> to GitHub. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Last April, a researcher challenged an early version of Anthropic’s Mythos model to break out of an isolated system and message back. Mythos did, and then \u003ca href=\"https://www.mondaymomentum.io/p/the-ai-that-broke-out-of-its-cage\">went further\u003c/a>, building a multistep process to reach the wider internet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Last April, a researcher challenged an early version of Anthropic’s Mythos model to break out of an isolated system and message back. Mythos did, and then \u003ca href=\"https://www.mondaymomentum.io/p/the-ai-that-broke-out-of-its-cage\">went further\u003c/a>, building a multistep process to reach the wider internet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>California’s \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">frontier AI law\u003c/a>, the first of its kind in the country, obliges the largest developers to tell the state about critical safety incidents, but only ones that kill or injure someone or that cause catastrophic harm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>California’s \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">frontier AI law\u003c/a>, the first of its kind in the country, obliges the largest developers to tell the state about critical safety incidents, but only ones that kill or injure someone or that cause catastrophic harm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It expressly excludes the kind of safety evaluation OpenAI was running when its models got loose. Which leaves a question nobody in Sacramento or Washington can answer: how often have frontier models in development gone rogue at companies that decided not to mention it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It expressly excludes the kind of safety evaluation OpenAI was running when its models got loose. Which leaves a question nobody in Sacramento or Washington can answer: how often have frontier models in development gone rogue at companies that decided not to mention it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This was one of the topics I was focused on when I worked at OpenAI: what happens when AI models become good enough to reward-hack their way through the infrastructure they use to accomplish their objectives?” Ariel Herbert-Voss, OpenAI’s first security hire, wrote KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“This was one of the topics I was focused on when I worked at OpenAI: what happens when AI models become good enough to reward-hack their way through the infrastructure they use to accomplish their objectives?” Ariel Herbert-Voss, OpenAI’s first security hire, wrote KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s a really difficult problem to defend against and is one of the reasons I left to start my own company,” Herbert-Voss, now the founder of an automated offensive cybersecurity company called RunSybil, said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s a really difficult problem to defend against and is one of the reasons I left to start my own company,” Herbert-Voss, now the founder of an automated offensive cybersecurity company called RunSybil, said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s a really remarkable and, I think, fair to say scary event,“ said Nathan Calvin, general counsel at safety advocate EncodeAI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s a really remarkable and, I think, fair to say scary event,“ said Nathan Calvin, general counsel at safety advocate EncodeAI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Scientists and AI researchers have warned for years of the possibility that AI systems could go rogue and do unpredictable and unintended things. AI developers commonly test safety with so-called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cyberpedia/what-is-ai-red-teaming\">red teams\u003c/a>” that try to break or trick machine learning models, like chatbots, to find hidden flaws. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Scientists and AI researchers have warned for years of the possibility that AI systems could go rogue and do unpredictable and unintended things. AI developers commonly test safety with so-called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cyberpedia/what-is-ai-red-teaming\">red teams\u003c/a>” that try to break or trick machine learning models, like chatbots, to find hidden flaws. \u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092368\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Hugging Face logo is seen displayed on a mobile phone screen with the AI revolution symbol in the background. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“In certain circumstances, AI will try to break out of their sandboxes or otherwise do things that were not what the creator intended,” Calvin said. “But this really is the first very big example of that happening, at scale, with a really highly capable AI model in a way that actually harmed a third party.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“In certain circumstances, AI will try to break out of their sandboxes or otherwise do things that were not what the creator intended,” Calvin said. “But this really is the first very big example of that happening, at scale, with a really highly capable AI model in a way that actually harmed a third party.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to OpenAI’s account, the company was running an internal evaluation designed to measure how good its models are at hacking. To get a true reading, OpenAI deliberately switched off the safety filters that normally stop its models from carrying out cyberattacks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to OpenAI’s account, the company was running an internal evaluation designed to measure how good its models are at hacking. To get a true reading, OpenAI deliberately switched off the safety filters that normally stop its models from carrying out cyberattacks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The models were confined to a so-called “sandbox,” an isolated environment with no route to the open internet except OpenAI’s one internal service that fetches software libraries from public repositories. The models found a previously unknown flaw in that service, exploited it, escalated their privileges and moved from machine to machine inside OpenAI’s research network until they reached one with internet access. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The models were confined to a so-called “sandbox,” an isolated environment with no route to the open internet except OpenAI’s one internal service that fetches software libraries from public repositories. The models found a previously unknown flaw in that service, exploited it, escalated their privileges and moved from machine to machine inside OpenAI’s research network until they reached one with internet access. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Once the models broke out onto the open internet, according to OpenAI, they reasoned that Hugging Face might be storing the answers to the test they were trying to pass. Hugging Face’s credentials and production database aren’t on the public internet any more than a bank’s vault sits on a sidewalk, but the models broke into Hugging Face using stolen credentials, among other things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Once the models broke out onto the open internet, according to OpenAI, they reasoned that Hugging Face might be storing the answers to the test they were trying to pass. Hugging Face’s credentials and production database aren’t on the public internet any more than a bank’s vault sits on a sidewalk, but the models broke into Hugging Face using stolen credentials, among other things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01-1536x1024.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">OpenAI restructured to a for-profit company in a move tied to an agreement with California Attorney General Rob Bonta. Company CEO Sam Altman participates in a discussion in San Francisco on Nov. 16, 2023.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062600\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">OpenAI restructured to a for-profit company in a move tied to an agreement with California Attorney General Rob Bonta. Company CEO Sam Altman participates in a discussion in San Francisco on Nov. 16, 2023.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In short: The models were told to hack. They were not told to leave the building or to break into another company’s servers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In short: The models were told to hack. They were not told to leave the building or to break into another company’s servers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hugging Face detected the intrusion and shut it down on its own, days before OpenAI connected the attack to its own testing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Hugging Face detected the intrusion and shut it down on its own, days before OpenAI connected the attack to its own testing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s quite mind-blowing that all of this happened autonomously!“ Hugging Face Chief Executive Clement Delangue wrote on social media platform \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/ClementDelangue/status/2079670308156645882\">X\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s quite mind-blowing that all of this happened autonomously!“ Hugging Face Chief Executive Clement Delangue wrote on social media platform \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/ClementDelangue/status/2079670308156645882\">X\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In its blog post, OpenAI wrote, “This incident points to the need to further strengthen our model’s alignment, cyber protections during evaluation time and monitoring during internal testing.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Future of Life Institute — a nonprofit which issues a biannual risk assessment of nine leading AI companies — recently warned that many of the companies building frontier models are quietly walking back safety commitments. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Future of Life Institute — a nonprofit which issues a biannual risk assessment of nine leading AI companies — recently warned that many of the companies building frontier models are quietly walking back safety commitments. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to the group’s \u003ca href=\"https://futureoflife.org/ai-safety-index-summer-2026/\">most recent\u003c/a> AI Safety Index, Anthropic, OpenAI, Google DeepMind and Meta all weakened or abandoned promises to pause development if certain red lines were approached, even while publicly suggesting they were amenable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to the group’s \u003ca href=\"https://futureoflife.org/ai-safety-index-summer-2026/\">most recent\u003c/a> AI Safety Index, Anthropic, OpenAI, Google DeepMind and Meta all weakened or abandoned promises to pause development if certain red lines were approached, even while publicly suggesting they were amenable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled-e1781542152687.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12058035\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Close-up of phone screen displaying Anthropic Claude, a Large Language Model (LLM) powered generative artificial intelligence chatbot in Lafayette, California, on June 27, 2024. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In an email, KQED asked Hamza Chaudhry, who leads AI and national security work at Future of Life, to imagine it was not OpenAI’s software gone rogue but a foreign state, intentionally executing an unauthorized intrusion into a private company’s production infrastructure, exploiting cybersecurity vulnerabilities, stealing live credentials and accessing a production database. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In an email, KQED asked Hamza Chaudhry, who leads AI and national security work at Future of Life, to imagine it was not OpenAI’s software gone rogue but a foreign state, intentionally executing an unauthorized intrusion into a private company’s production infrastructure, exploiting cybersecurity vulnerabilities, stealing live credentials and accessing a production database. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We would likely call this a dangerous act of cyber-espionage,” he wrote — a likely criminal violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which “would draw a threat group designation and eventually an indictment or sanctions.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We would likely call this a dangerous act of cyber-espionage,” he wrote — a likely criminal violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which “would draw a threat group designation and eventually an indictment or sanctions.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to KQED’s request for comment, but a spokesperson told \u003cem>Bloomberg \u003c/em>the company communicated with law enforcement and other government authorities about the incident.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to KQED’s request for comment, but a spokesperson told \u003cem>Bloomberg \u003c/em>the company communicated with law enforcement and other government authorities about the incident.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The fact that Google DeepMind, Meta, Mistral, xAI and Chinese AI model developers haven’t revealed similar events doesn’t necessarily mean they haven’t happened. OpenAI and Anthropic are the only two frontier model developers that have publicly disclosed containment failures. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The fact that Google DeepMind, Meta, Mistral, xAI and Chinese AI model developers haven’t revealed similar events doesn’t necessarily mean they haven’t happened. OpenAI and Anthropic are the only two frontier model developers that have publicly disclosed containment failures. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There is no mandatory public disclosure regime in force, like the one in California that requires \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11992954/cybersecurity-expert-shares-tips-for-dublin-based-patelco-credit-union-customers-after-ransomware-attack\">hacked companies to reveal\u003c/a> there’s been a data breach.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There is no mandatory public disclosure regime in force, like the one in California that requires \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11992954/cybersecurity-expert-shares-tips-for-dublin-based-patelco-credit-union-customers-after-ransomware-attack\">hacked companies to reveal\u003c/a> there’s been a data breach.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Congressional candidate and state Sen. Scott Wiener wrote two AI frontier model safety bills. Gov. Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\">vetoed\u003c/a> Wiener’s first effort, arguing in his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> that “By focusing only on the most expensive and large-scale models, SB 1047 establishes a regulatory framework that could give the public a false sense of security about controlling this fast-moving technology.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Congressional candidate and state Sen. Scott Wiener wrote two AI frontier model safety bills. Gov. Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\">vetoed\u003c/a> Wiener’s first effort, arguing in his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> that “By focusing only on the most expensive and large-scale models, SB 1047 establishes a regulatory framework that could give the public a false sense of security about controlling this fast-moving technology.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The next year, Newsom signed Wiener’s second at-bat, but only after the bill was softened to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">overcome industry pushback\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The next year, Newsom signed Wiener’s second at-bat, but only after the bill was softened to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">overcome industry pushback\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">law\u003c/a>, which took effect Jan. 1, requires developers of the most powerful AI models to notify the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services of any “critical safety incident“ within 15 days of discovering it — which is not the same as reporting the incident to the public. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">law\u003c/a>, which took effect Jan. 1, requires developers of the most powerful AI models to notify the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services of any “critical safety incident“ within 15 days of discovering it — which is not the same as reporting the incident to the public. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wiener told KQED he still thinks the law is strong. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We worked very hard with the governor to produce a bill that is meaningful and impactful, and that he would sign,“ he said, adding he doesn’t consider the work done, because AI continues to evolve at a rapid pace. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We worked very hard with the governor to produce a bill that is meaningful and impactful, and that he would sign,“ he said, adding he doesn’t consider the work done, because AI continues to evolve at a rapid pace. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12069061\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Scott Wiener, a candidate for California’s 11th Congressional District, participates in a forum with other candidates at UC Law San Francisco on Jan. 7, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>AI, he said, is “likely the most powerful technology in human history, and we need to make sure that we are both understanding the risks and taking them seriously, so that we can get ahead of them.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Calvin likened the Hugging Face hack to the cyclospora outbreak linked to, but not confirmed as originating from, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091770/california-based-taylor-farms-recalls-lettuce-shipped-to-27-states-over-cyclospora-risk\">Taylor Farms\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That California-based company has said it’s removing its lettuce indefinitely while the FDA investigation continues. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And OpenAI is like, ‘Maybe it’ll happen again. Maybe it’ll get worse. We don’t really know,“ Calvin said. “Your AI, again, hacked out of its box and hacked into another company, and you’re saying that you don’t know how to stop it from doing that again? That seems pretty nuts,” Calvin said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“And OpenAI is like, ‘Maybe it’ll happen again. Maybe it’ll get worse. We don’t really know,“ Calvin said. “Your AI, again, hacked out of its box and hacked into another company, and you’re saying that you don’t know how to stop it from doing that again? That seems pretty nuts,” Calvin said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/open-ai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://openai.com/index/hugging-face-model-evaluation-security-incident/\"> this week said\u003c/a> more than one of its models — three, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-23/openai-models-lurked-in-hugging-face-system-for-hours-undetected?srnd=homepage-americas\">\u003cem>Bloomberg\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — attacked Hugging Face, a popular repository for open-source AI tools — marking one of the first publicly disclosed cases of frontier AI models autonomously cyberattacking another company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The disclosure came days after Hugging Face \u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/security-incident-july-2026\">revealed\u003c/a> it was breached in a hack by a “malicious dataset,” which intruded into the AI company’s software to run code. The campaign executed a flurry of more than 17,000 automated actions in a matter of hours, the post said. It’s still unclear if Hugging Face customer or partner data was taken. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This matches the ‘agentic attacker’ scenario the industry has been forecasting,” Hugging Face wrote on July 16.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI said an investigation showed the incident was driven by a combination of models — “including GPT‑5.6 Sol and an even more capable pre-release model.” The company said it’s working with Hugging Face to produce a more thorough report of what happened.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11985952\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023, in Boston, Massachusetts. (Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI’s announcement came one day after the San Francisco-based frontier AI developer disclosed a separate incident in which it paused another pre-release model that had escaped what the industry calls “a sandbox” — an isolated environment with no path to the open internet, except for a single internal service that fetches software packages — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/openai-models-escaped-containment-and-hacked-huggingface/\">posted\u003c/a> to GitHub. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last April, a researcher challenged an early version of Anthropic’s Mythos model to break out of an isolated system and message back. Mythos did, and then \u003ca href=\"https://www.mondaymomentum.io/p/the-ai-that-broke-out-of-its-cage\">went further\u003c/a>, building a multistep process to reach the wider internet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">frontier AI law\u003c/a>, the first of its kind in the country, obliges the largest developers to tell the state about critical safety incidents, but only ones that kill or injure someone or that cause catastrophic harm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It expressly excludes the kind of safety evaluation OpenAI was running when its models got loose. Which leaves a question nobody in Sacramento or Washington can answer: how often have frontier models in development gone rogue at companies that decided not to mention it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This was one of the topics I was focused on when I worked at OpenAI: what happens when AI models become good enough to reward-hack their way through the infrastructure they use to accomplish their objectives?” Ariel Herbert-Voss, OpenAI’s first security hire, wrote KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a really difficult problem to defend against and is one of the reasons I left to start my own company,” Herbert-Voss, now the founder of an automated offensive cybersecurity company called RunSybil, said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a really remarkable and, I think, fair to say scary event,“ said Nathan Calvin, general counsel at safety advocate EncodeAI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists and AI researchers have warned for years of the possibility that AI systems could go rogue and do unpredictable and unintended things. AI developers commonly test safety with so-called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cyberpedia/what-is-ai-red-teaming\">red teams\u003c/a>” that try to break or trick machine learning models, like chatbots, to find hidden flaws. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092368\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1849294862-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Hugging Face logo is seen displayed on a mobile phone screen with the AI revolution symbol in the background. (Idrees Abbas/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In certain circumstances, AI will try to break out of their sandboxes or otherwise do things that were not what the creator intended,” Calvin said. “But this really is the first very big example of that happening, at scale, with a really highly capable AI model in a way that actually harmed a third party.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to OpenAI’s account, the company was running an internal evaluation designed to measure how good its models are at hacking. To get a true reading, OpenAI deliberately switched off the safety filters that normally stop its models from carrying out cyberattacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The models were confined to a so-called “sandbox,” an isolated environment with no route to the open internet except OpenAI’s one internal service that fetches software libraries from public repositories. The models found a previously unknown flaw in that service, exploited it, escalated their privileges and moved from machine to machine inside OpenAI’s research network until they reached one with internet access. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Once the models broke out onto the open internet, according to OpenAI, they reasoned that Hugging Face might be storing the answers to the test they were trying to pass. Hugging Face’s credentials and production database aren’t on the public internet any more than a bank’s vault sits on a sidewalk, but the models broke into Hugging Face using stolen credentials, among other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12062600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/111623_Sam-Altman_AP_CM_01-1536x1024.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">OpenAI restructured to a for-profit company in a move tied to an agreement with California Attorney General Rob Bonta. Company CEO Sam Altman participates in a discussion in San Francisco on Nov. 16, 2023. (Photo by Eric Risberg, AP Photo)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In short: The models were told to hack. They were not told to leave the building or to break into another company’s servers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hugging Face detected the intrusion and shut it down on its own, days before OpenAI connected the attack to its own testing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s quite mind-blowing that all of this happened autonomously!“ Hugging Face Chief Executive Clement Delangue wrote on social media platform \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/ClementDelangue/status/2079670308156645882\">X\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In its blog post, OpenAI wrote, “This incident points to the need to further strengthen our model’s alignment, cyber protections during evaluation time and monitoring during internal testing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Future of Life Institute — a nonprofit which issues a biannual risk assessment of nine leading AI companies — recently warned that many of the companies building frontier models are quietly walking back safety commitments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the group’s \u003ca href=\"https://futureoflife.org/ai-safety-index-summer-2026/\">most recent\u003c/a> AI Safety Index, Anthropic, OpenAI, Google DeepMind and Meta all weakened or abandoned promises to pause development if certain red lines were approached, even while publicly suggesting they were amenable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled-e1781542152687.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12058035\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Close-up of phone screen displaying Anthropic Claude, a Large Language Model (LLM) powered generative artificial intelligence chatbot in Lafayette, California, on June 27, 2024. (Smith Collection/Gado via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In an email, KQED asked Hamza Chaudhry, who leads AI and national security work at Future of Life, to imagine it was not OpenAI’s software gone rogue but a foreign state, intentionally executing an unauthorized intrusion into a private company’s production infrastructure, exploiting cybersecurity vulnerabilities, stealing live credentials and accessing a production database. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We would likely call this a dangerous act of cyber-espionage,” he wrote — a likely criminal violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which “would draw a threat group designation and eventually an indictment or sanctions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OpenAI did not respond to KQED’s request for comment, but a spokesperson told \u003cem>Bloomberg \u003c/em>the company communicated with law enforcement and other government authorities about the incident.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fact that Google DeepMind, Meta, Mistral, xAI and Chinese AI model developers haven’t revealed similar events doesn’t necessarily mean they haven’t happened. OpenAI and Anthropic are the only two frontier model developers that have publicly disclosed containment failures. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There is no mandatory public disclosure regime in force, like the one in California that requires \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11992954/cybersecurity-expert-shares-tips-for-dublin-based-patelco-credit-union-customers-after-ransomware-attack\">hacked companies to reveal\u003c/a> there’s been a data breach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12036125\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. (Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Congressional candidate and state Sen. Scott Wiener wrote two AI frontier model safety bills. Gov. Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\">vetoed\u003c/a> Wiener’s first effort, arguing in his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SB-1047-Veto-Message.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> that “By focusing only on the most expensive and large-scale models, SB 1047 establishes a regulatory framework that could give the public a false sense of security about controlling this fast-moving technology.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The next year, Newsom signed Wiener’s second at-bat, but only after the bill was softened to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">overcome industry pushback\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\">law\u003c/a>, which took effect Jan. 1, requires developers of the most powerful AI models to notify the Governor’s Office of Emergency Services of any “critical safety incident“ within 15 days of discovering it — which is not the same as reporting the incident to the public. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wiener told KQED he still thinks the law is strong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We worked very hard with the governor to produce a bill that is meaningful and impactful, and that he would sign,“ he said, adding he doesn’t consider the work done, because AI continues to evolve at a rapid pace. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12069061\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260107-SFCongressionalCandidateForum-13-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Scott Wiener, a candidate for California’s 11th Congressional District, participates in a forum with other candidates at UC Law San Francisco on Jan. 7, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>AI, he said, is “likely the most powerful technology in human history, and we need to make sure that we are both understanding the risks and taking them seriously, so that we can get ahead of them.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Calvin likened the Hugging Face hack to the cyclospora outbreak linked to, but not confirmed as originating from, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12091770/california-based-taylor-farms-recalls-lettuce-shipped-to-27-states-over-cyclospora-risk\">Taylor Farms\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That California-based company has said it’s removing its lettuce indefinitely while the FDA investigation continues. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And OpenAI is like, ‘Maybe it’ll happen again. Maybe it’ll get worse. We don’t really know,“ Calvin said. “Your AI, again, hacked out of its box and hacked into another company, and you’re saying that you don’t know how to stop it from doing that again? That seems pretty nuts,” Calvin said.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "nearly-half-of-teens-report-seeing-ai-sexual-content-bay-area-leaders-want-to-shut-it-down",
"title": "Nearly Half of Teens Report Seeing AI Sexual Content. Bay Area Leaders Want to Shut It Down",
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"headTitle": "Nearly Half of Teens Report Seeing AI Sexual Content. Bay Area Leaders Want to Shut It Down | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Sexualized images generated by artificial intelligence have flooded kids’ screens. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area \u003c/a>lawmakers are racing to crack down on sites and apps that make this possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A new \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-explicit-deepfakes-in-the-age-of-ai\">report\u003c/a> from Common Sense Media, a leading nonprofit researching child safety online, found that 44% of teens have seen sexual content they believe to be AI-generated — and that nearly a quarter of those who’ve seen it say they’ve seen content of themselves or of their peers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, said the report confirms what lawmakers have been warning about for years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Artificial intelligence is making it easier than ever to create fake images that are explicit images of real people, and too often young people are the victims,” Becker said on Tuesday. “It’s taken something that may have happened before — cyberbullying — and just put it on steroids.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The study followed up on the organization’s 2023 report about online pornography’s impact on teens. Its authors surveyed 1,314 teens in the U.S. and held focus groups to contextualize the numbers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1020\" height=\"765\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1020x765.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11862704\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1832x1374.jpg 1832w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1376x1032.jpg 1376w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1044x783.jpg 1044w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-632x474.jpg 632w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-536x402.jpg 536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1020px) 100vw, 1020px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Josh Becker speaks to reporters at the Cesar Chavez Ravenswood Middle School in East Palo Alto on March 1, 2021. (Courtesy of Voler Strategic Advisors)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They found that 67% of teens feared being depicted in deepfakes — extremely realistic images, videos or audio clips showing something that never happened — without their consent. One teen surveyed in the report said that “everyone should have at least a small degree of worry because it’s so easy [to make it], so accessible, and it also feels pushed.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Experts say that generative AI has made it easier than ever to create deepfakes. While big platforms generally have safety features to prevent making them sexually explicit, they do not \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c802ldjdklzo\">always\u003c/a> work, according to reporting from the BBC. Many users will turn instead to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">smaller, anonymous\u003c/a> apps and websites to generate the content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“AI has made a severe form of sexual harassment easy enough for almost any kid with a phone to carry out,” said Jim Steyer, CEO of Common Sense Media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kids can be targeted by deepfakes as early as elementary school, and especially in middle school and high school, said Emma Le, the head of operations at the Center for Gender Equitable AI, a youth-led organization addressing gender based harms caused by emerging technologies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Le said that most deepfakes target women and that they have “huge consequences on girls’ mental health,” causing some to leave school, experience depression and contemplate self-harm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More and more teens are scaling back their online activity to protect themselves from being deepfaked, according to Steyer. Le also said that deepfakes are linked to an increase in gender-based harassment that’s driving women and girls away from online platforms — a key public sphere for many. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Girls are withdrawing from the public eye,” Le said. “That’s going to have huge consequences in the future for women’s rights, women’s empowerment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Surveyed teens reported seeing this explicit AI content across platforms including, but not limited to, TikTok, Instagram and X. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While teens may see the content on big platforms, San Francisco City Attorney David Chiu said that small, often anonymous and sometimes international companies are the ones that produce so-called “nudify” tools — AI-driven apps and websites that allow users to make sexually explicit deepfakes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because you can’t determine which website or app generated an image, “victims often have no recourse,” Chiu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Once the images are distributed, you can’t control where they go,” Chiu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Le emphasized that because the images cannot be completely scrubbed, victims of these crimes can worry about the images popping up again, especially if they have a job in the public eye. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12084574\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 14-year-old boy holds an iPhone with various social media and messaging apps on Feb. 23, 2026. (Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lawmakers at every level are working to tackle this issue. Last year, Congress passed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/146\">Take It Down Act\u003c/a> — prohibiting the nonconsensual publication of explicit images and requiring online platforms to establish reporting systems and remove the images promptly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Becker said that California has been “leading the nation” with legislation updated “for this new AI age.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the past few years, the state passed laws banning \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069808/california-investigates-elon-musks-ai-company-after-avalanche-of-complaints-about-sexual-content\">deepfake revenge porn\u003c/a> — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">AI-generated child porn\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Becker described legislating in this space as a “cat and mouse game” and said that lawmakers are “going to have to keep working to make sure our laws can keep up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, Chiu is already using these laws to hold Silicon Valley companies to account. Last week, Chiu sent Google and Apple cease-and-desist letters asking them to take down 13 apps that were being used to target women and girls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It shouldn’t be on us to tell large technology companies that their app stores are being used to continue to victimize millions of women and girls around the globe,” Chiu said. “We are asking these companies to be proactive in preventing this abuse in the future.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A Google spokesperson said that all five apps referenced in Chiu’s letter have been suspended. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When violations are reported to us, we investigate and take swift action, which in the case of these apps has included suspending hundreds of violating apps and restricting related search terms like ‘nudify’ on our store,” the company said in a statement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for Apple said that “‘Nudification’ apps are against our App Review Guidelines and we aggressively work to identify and remove apps — as well as the developer accounts behind them — that attempt to evade our processes and policies.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Steyer urged more action from both the tech industry and from American lawmakers, but also emphasized the importance of talking to kids about this content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As a parent or a grandparent, this is sort of your worst nightmare, but you gotta talk to your kids about it … because it’s real. The numbers speak for themselves,” Steyer said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-explicit-deepfakes-in-the-age-of-ai\">report\u003c/a> contains advice for parents, schools and policymakers dealing with this content and these conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sexualized images generated by artificial intelligence have flooded kids’ screens. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area \u003c/a>lawmakers are racing to crack down on sites and apps that make this possible. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sexualized images generated by artificial intelligence have flooded kids’ screens. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area \u003c/a>lawmakers are racing to crack down on sites and apps that make this possible. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A new \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-explicit-deepfakes-in-the-age-of-ai\">report\u003c/a> from Common Sense Media, a leading nonprofit researching child safety online, found that 44% of teens have seen sexual content they believe to be AI-generated — and that nearly a quarter of those who’ve seen it say they’ve seen content of themselves or of their peers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A new \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-explicit-deepfakes-in-the-age-of-ai\">report\u003c/a> from Common Sense Media, a leading nonprofit researching child safety online, found that 44% of teens have seen sexual content they believe to be AI-generated — and that nearly a quarter of those who’ve seen it say they’ve seen content of themselves or of their peers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, said the report confirms what lawmakers have been warning about for years. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Artificial intelligence is making it easier than ever to create fake images that are explicit images of real people, and too often young people are the victims,” Becker said on Tuesday. “It’s taken something that may have happened before — cyberbullying — and just put it on steroids.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Artificial intelligence is making it easier than ever to create fake images that are explicit images of real people, and too often young people are the victims,” Becker said on Tuesday. “It’s taken something that may have happened before — cyberbullying — and just put it on steroids.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The study followed up on the organization’s 2023 report about online pornography’s impact on teens. Its authors surveyed 1,314 teens in the U.S. and held focus groups to contextualize the numbers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The study followed up on the organization’s 2023 report about online pornography’s impact on teens. Its authors surveyed 1,314 teens in the U.S. and held focus groups to contextualize the numbers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They found that 67% of teens feared being depicted in deepfakes — extremely realistic images, videos or audio clips showing something that never happened — without their consent. One teen surveyed in the report said that “everyone should have at least a small degree of worry because it’s so easy [to make it], so accessible, and it also feels pushed.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They found that 67% of teens feared being depicted in deepfakes — extremely realistic images, videos or audio clips showing something that never happened — without their consent. One teen surveyed in the report said that “everyone should have at least a small degree of worry because it’s so easy [to make it], so accessible, and it also feels pushed.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Experts say that generative AI has made it easier than ever to create deepfakes. While big platforms generally have safety features to prevent making them sexually explicit, they do not \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c802ldjdklzo\">always\u003c/a> work, according to reporting from the BBC. Many users will turn instead to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">smaller, anonymous\u003c/a> apps and websites to generate the content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Experts say that generative AI has made it easier than ever to create deepfakes. While big platforms generally have safety features to prevent making them sexually explicit, they do not \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c802ldjdklzo\">always\u003c/a> work, according to reporting from the BBC. Many users will turn instead to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">smaller, anonymous\u003c/a> apps and websites to generate the content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“AI has made a severe form of sexual harassment easy enough for almost any kid with a phone to carry out,” said Jim Steyer, CEO of Common Sense Media.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“AI has made a severe form of sexual harassment easy enough for almost any kid with a phone to carry out,” said Jim Steyer, CEO of Common Sense Media.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kids can be targeted by deepfakes as early as elementary school, and especially in middle school and high school, said Emma Le, the head of operations at the Center for Gender Equitable AI, a youth-led organization addressing gender based harms caused by emerging technologies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kids can be targeted by deepfakes as early as elementary school, and especially in middle school and high school, said Emma Le, the head of operations at the Center for Gender Equitable AI, a youth-led organization addressing gender based harms caused by emerging technologies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Le said that most deepfakes target women and that they have “huge consequences on girls’ mental health,” causing some to leave school, experience depression and contemplate self-harm. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>More and more teens are scaling back their online activity to protect themselves from being deepfaked, according to Steyer. Le also said that deepfakes are linked to an increase in gender-based harassment that’s driving women and girls away from online platforms — a key public sphere for many. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>More and more teens are scaling back their online activity to protect themselves from being deepfaked, according to Steyer. Le also said that deepfakes are linked to an increase in gender-based harassment that’s driving women and girls away from online platforms — a key public sphere for many. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Girls are withdrawing from the public eye,” Le said. “That’s going to have huge consequences in the future for women’s rights, women’s empowerment.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Surveyed teens reported seeing this explicit AI content across platforms including, but not limited to, TikTok, Instagram and X. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Surveyed teens reported seeing this explicit AI content across platforms including, but not limited to, TikTok, Instagram and X. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While teens may see the content on big platforms, San Francisco City Attorney David Chiu said that small, often anonymous and sometimes international companies are the ones that produce so-called “nudify” tools — AI-driven apps and websites that allow users to make sexually explicit deepfakes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While teens may see the content on big platforms, San Francisco City Attorney David Chiu said that small, often anonymous and sometimes international companies are the ones that produce so-called “nudify” tools — AI-driven apps and websites that allow users to make sexually explicit deepfakes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because you can’t determine which website or app generated an image, “victims often have no recourse,” Chiu said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because you can’t determine which website or app generated an image, “victims often have no recourse,” Chiu said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Once the images are distributed, you can’t control where they go,” Chiu said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Le emphasized that because the images cannot be completely scrubbed, victims of these crimes can worry about the images popping up again, especially if they have a job in the public eye. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Le emphasized that because the images cannot be completely scrubbed, victims of these crimes can worry about the images popping up again, especially if they have a job in the public eye. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lawmakers at every level are working to tackle this issue. Last year, Congress passed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/146\">Take It Down Act\u003c/a> — prohibiting the nonconsensual publication of explicit images and requiring online platforms to establish reporting systems and remove the images promptly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Becker said that California has been “leading the nation” with legislation updated “for this new AI age.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over the past few years, the state passed laws banning \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069808/california-investigates-elon-musks-ai-company-after-avalanche-of-complaints-about-sexual-content\">deepfake revenge porn\u003c/a> — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">AI-generated child porn\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over the past few years, the state passed laws banning \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069808/california-investigates-elon-musks-ai-company-after-avalanche-of-complaints-about-sexual-content\">deepfake revenge porn\u003c/a> — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">AI-generated child porn\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Becker described legislating in this space as a “cat and mouse game” and said that lawmakers are “going to have to keep working to make sure our laws can keep up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, Chiu is already using these laws to hold Silicon Valley companies to account. Last week, Chiu sent Google and Apple cease-and-desist letters asking them to take down 13 apps that were being used to target women and girls. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, Chiu is already using these laws to hold Silicon Valley companies to account. Last week, Chiu sent Google and Apple cease-and-desist letters asking them to take down 13 apps that were being used to target women and girls. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It shouldn’t be on us to tell large technology companies that their app stores are being used to continue to victimize millions of women and girls around the globe,” Chiu said. “We are asking these companies to be proactive in preventing this abuse in the future.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It shouldn’t be on us to tell large technology companies that their app stores are being used to continue to victimize millions of women and girls around the globe,” Chiu said. “We are asking these companies to be proactive in preventing this abuse in the future.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A Google spokesperson said that all five apps referenced in Chiu’s letter have been suspended. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When violations are reported to us, we investigate and take swift action, which in the case of these apps has included suspending hundreds of violating apps and restricting related search terms like ‘nudify’ on our store,” the company said in a statement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“When violations are reported to us, we investigate and take swift action, which in the case of these apps has included suspending hundreds of violating apps and restricting related search terms like ‘nudify’ on our store,” the company said in a statement. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for Apple said that “‘Nudification’ apps are against our App Review Guidelines and we aggressively work to identify and remove apps — as well as the developer accounts behind them — that attempt to evade our processes and policies.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for Apple said that “‘Nudification’ apps are against our App Review Guidelines and we aggressively work to identify and remove apps — as well as the developer accounts behind them — that attempt to evade our processes and policies.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Steyer urged more action from both the tech industry and from American lawmakers, but also emphasized the importance of talking to kids about this content. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“As a parent or a grandparent, this is sort of your worst nightmare, but you gotta talk to your kids about it … because it’s real. The numbers speak for themselves,” Steyer said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“As a parent or a grandparent, this is sort of your worst nightmare, but you gotta talk to your kids about it … because it’s real. The numbers speak for themselves,” Steyer said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-explicit-deepfakes-in-the-age-of-ai\">report\u003c/a> contains advice for parents, schools and policymakers dealing with this content and these conversations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Nearly Half of Teens Report Seeing AI Sexual Content. Bay Area Leaders Want to Shut It Down | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sexualized images generated by artificial intelligence have flooded kids’ screens. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area \u003c/a>lawmakers are racing to crack down on sites and apps that make this possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A new \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-explicit-deepfakes-in-the-age-of-ai\">report\u003c/a> from Common Sense Media, a leading nonprofit researching child safety online, found that 44% of teens have seen sexual content they believe to be AI-generated — and that nearly a quarter of those who’ve seen it say they’ve seen content of themselves or of their peers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State Sen. Josh Becker, D-Menlo Park, said the report confirms what lawmakers have been warning about for years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Artificial intelligence is making it easier than ever to create fake images that are explicit images of real people, and too often young people are the victims,” Becker said on Tuesday. “It’s taken something that may have happened before — cyberbullying — and just put it on steroids.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The study followed up on the organization’s 2023 report about online pornography’s impact on teens. Its authors surveyed 1,314 teens in the U.S. and held focus groups to contextualize the numbers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1020\" height=\"765\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1020x765.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11862704\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1832x1374.jpg 1832w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1376x1032.jpg 1376w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-1044x783.jpg 1044w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-632x474.jpg 632w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut-536x402.jpg 536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS47488_IMG_5843-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1020px) 100vw, 1020px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">State Sen. Josh Becker speaks to reporters at the Cesar Chavez Ravenswood Middle School in East Palo Alto on March 1, 2021. (Courtesy of Voler Strategic Advisors)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They found that 67% of teens feared being depicted in deepfakes — extremely realistic images, videos or audio clips showing something that never happened — without their consent. One teen surveyed in the report said that “everyone should have at least a small degree of worry because it’s so easy [to make it], so accessible, and it also feels pushed.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Experts say that generative AI has made it easier than ever to create deepfakes. While big platforms generally have safety features to prevent making them sexually explicit, they do not \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c802ldjdklzo\">always\u003c/a> work, according to reporting from the BBC. Many users will turn instead to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">smaller, anonymous\u003c/a> apps and websites to generate the content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“AI has made a severe form of sexual harassment easy enough for almost any kid with a phone to carry out,” said Jim Steyer, CEO of Common Sense Media.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kids can be targeted by deepfakes as early as elementary school, and especially in middle school and high school, said Emma Le, the head of operations at the Center for Gender Equitable AI, a youth-led organization addressing gender based harms caused by emerging technologies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Le said that most deepfakes target women and that they have “huge consequences on girls’ mental health,” causing some to leave school, experience depression and contemplate self-harm. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>More and more teens are scaling back their online activity to protect themselves from being deepfaked, according to Steyer. Le also said that deepfakes are linked to an increase in gender-based harassment that’s driving women and girls away from online platforms — a key public sphere for many. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Girls are withdrawing from the public eye,” Le said. “That’s going to have huge consequences in the future for women’s rights, women’s empowerment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Surveyed teens reported seeing this explicit AI content across platforms including, but not limited to, TikTok, Instagram and X. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While teens may see the content on big platforms, San Francisco City Attorney David Chiu said that small, often anonymous and sometimes international companies are the ones that produce so-called “nudify” tools — AI-driven apps and websites that allow users to make sexually explicit deepfakes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because you can’t determine which website or app generated an image, “victims often have no recourse,” Chiu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Once the images are distributed, you can’t control where they go,” Chiu said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Le emphasized that because the images cannot be completely scrubbed, victims of these crimes can worry about the images popping up again, especially if they have a job in the public eye. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12084574\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/TeenagersMetaSocialMediaGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 14-year-old boy holds an iPhone with various social media and messaging apps on Feb. 23, 2026. (Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lawmakers at every level are working to tackle this issue. Last year, Congress passed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/146\">Take It Down Act\u003c/a> — prohibiting the nonconsensual publication of explicit images and requiring online platforms to establish reporting systems and remove the images promptly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Becker said that California has been “leading the nation” with legislation updated “for this new AI age.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the past few years, the state passed laws banning \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069808/california-investigates-elon-musks-ai-company-after-avalanche-of-complaints-about-sexual-content\">deepfake revenge porn\u003c/a> — and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12000310/san-francisco-takes-on-makers-ai-generated-deepfake-pornography-landmark-lawsuit\">AI-generated child porn\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Becker described legislating in this space as a “cat and mouse game” and said that lawmakers are “going to have to keep working to make sure our laws can keep up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, Chiu is already using these laws to hold Silicon Valley companies to account. Last week, Chiu sent Google and Apple cease-and-desist letters asking them to take down 13 apps that were being used to target women and girls. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It shouldn’t be on us to tell large technology companies that their app stores are being used to continue to victimize millions of women and girls around the globe,” Chiu said. “We are asking these companies to be proactive in preventing this abuse in the future.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A Google spokesperson said that all five apps referenced in Chiu’s letter have been suspended. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When violations are reported to us, we investigate and take swift action, which in the case of these apps has included suspending hundreds of violating apps and restricting related search terms like ‘nudify’ on our store,” the company said in a statement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for Apple said that “‘Nudification’ apps are against our App Review Guidelines and we aggressively work to identify and remove apps — as well as the developer accounts behind them — that attempt to evade our processes and policies.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Steyer urged more action from both the tech industry and from American lawmakers, but also emphasized the importance of talking to kids about this content. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As a parent or a grandparent, this is sort of your worst nightmare, but you gotta talk to your kids about it … because it’s real. The numbers speak for themselves,” Steyer said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-explicit-deepfakes-in-the-age-of-ai\">report\u003c/a> contains advice for parents, schools and policymakers dealing with this content and these conversations.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Does AI Have to Be Bad News for the Planet? (with Meghan Busse)",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[ad break]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>END\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Does AI Have to Be Bad News for the Planet? (with Meghan Busse) | KQED",
"description": "Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? Economist Meghan Busse suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.",
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"socialDescription": "Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? Economist Meghan Busse suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View Full Episode Transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you hurting the planet every time you query a chatbot? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/busse_meghan/\">Economist Meghan Busse\u003c/a> suggests that may be the wrong question. In this episode, we zoom out from the usual concerns about frivolous queries (and, for that matter, resource‑hungry data centers) to ask an even more basic question: is intense demand for AI locking us into decades of additional fossil fuel use, or is it accelerating investment in clean energy? Busse helps us sort real climate levers from symbolic ones, and explains why AI’s ultimate impact on the planet will likely come down to how we build and power it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://apnorc.org/projects/epic-climate-change-2025/?doing_wp_cron=1784231367.3495659828186035156250\">Public attitudes toward climate policy, technology, and the environment\u003c/a> — AP-NORC\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/24/us/j-stuart-adams-utah-senate-data-center.html\">Utah Senate President Loses Primary After Data Center Backlash\u003c/a> — Jack Healy, \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show where we explore how technologies like AI are changing how we live, work, and make decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode, we dive into one of the biggest anxieties around AI. What it’s doing to the environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You see this anxiety most dramatically in the protests against data centers. It wasn’t that long ago that just a handful of people might show up at town halls to object to a project. These days, communities are getting more organized… and they’re increasingly calling for moratoriums on data center construction. That’s state and local freezes, basically. They’re citing worries about water, noise, pollution, land, and strain on the electrical grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[News footage from people protesting data centers…]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wanted to understand something more basic. Just how bad is AI for the planet? Particularly compared to all the other things we do to the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what should \u003cem>I \u003c/em>actually do about it? Like me, personally, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I have environmentally conscious friends who refuse to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude on principle, particularly for frivolous queries like generating a vacation packing list. I have a suspicion that this might be a little…beside the point? But maybe it isn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I reached out to Meghan Busse. She’s an economist at the Kellogg School of Management. She’s NOT an expert in data centers specifically, but she is an expert on energy, climate, environmental policy and how markets affect those things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought she’d be a great person to zoom out and really help me understand the big picture. How should I, someone who cares about the environment, be thinking about AI?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan helped me separate the problem into two major buckets. The very real local impacts of a data center moving into your neighborhood, and the broader impacts on CO2 emissions that lead to climate change. And that second bucket is where the story gets really interesting. Because Meghan actually sees a future where demand for AI could benefit the planet. \u003cem>If\u003c/em> we stay laser-focused on the right things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a show from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan and I started our conversation discussing a recent AP NORC poll that suggested more than 70 percent of Americans are either somewhat, very, or extremely concerned about the environmental impact of AI. That’s more than the percentages concerned about the impact of air travel or meat production. I wanted to know what she made of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: So on the one hand, I’m excited to have that many Americans concerned about the environmental and climate impact of anything. On the other hand, it is consistent with what I think we see in other places, which is that people sometimes have the biggest fears about the things that are either least familiar or the newest, or what I call as a technical term “scary.” And something that’s scary is something that makes a good disaster movie. It’s what makes nuclear power scary. But, coal-fired, air pollution not scary. Even though the coal-fired power pollution is much more dangerous in terms of mortality than nuclear power is. There’s the same kind of thing. I think that AI seems scary in the sense that we can imagine a great disaster movie about it when you don’t imagine a great disaster movie about the CO2 emissions that come from meat production.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I don’t think Meghan’s point here is that climate fears about AI are themselves irrational. But she’s already raising a question that will run through our whole conversation: are we worried about the right things, in the right proportions?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When it comes to AI, there are big global concerns around CO2 emissions related to energy use, both in terms of the energy required to train the models, and the energy required to run them. We’ll get to those. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first I wanted to talk about THE thing people are most upset about. And that is what Meghan calls “local proximity issues”: the concerns we might have when we learn a data center is moving in nearby. Which in some ways are like lots of bad neighbor issues people have had with factories in the past….but with some new twists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which the pollution, if you will, that comes from data centers is different from what we have typically thought of when we think about industrial sources. And there we are oftentimes thinking about air pollution or water pollution or things that are contaminants that can harm people’s health because they get into people’s bodies, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And a data center is much cleaner in that sense. There isn’t smoke, right? There isn’t particulate matter that potentially people are breathing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But people are worried, and I think with some justification, about other kinds of externality, other kinds of consequences. And one of the things that people have been increasingly talking about is the issue of noise. So you might be near a data center, and it wouldn’t be loud or clattery or things like that, but people describe sort of a hum or a buzz or a vibration- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ugh \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> …Or a thrum, that can affect people’s health, not because it bothers them that they hear it, but because it is a low-level vibration that can affect people’s bodies in ways that I’m not sure we understand really well. And part of the challenge is that to the extent that we have noise ordinances… They are to deal with things that are loud, that affect hearing, that disturb quality of life in the way that we’re used to conventionally thinking about noise.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s almost like we don’t even know enough about this to be able to design the regulations and the agreements that would then satisfy the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: The more I read about this, the more I’m coming to believe that near people is just not a good place to put data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So we talked about noise. What are some of the other concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>There are land use kinds of questions. So there is, for example, in northern Utah, in a place called Cache Valley near Logan, there was recently a proposal for an absolutely gigantic data center that would have been just a huge presence in the land there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> I looked it up. The proposed hyperscale data center she is talking about would be located in Northwest Box Elder County, near Cache Valley. Its size: 40,000 acres. After a public backlash, the size of the proposed project area (that’s the area including both the facilities and the land) was reduced to 20,000 acres–a mere two-thirds the size of San Francisco. Having a neighbor that big…yeah, I can see how that could cause alarm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s the question of water. Data centers have a reputation for being real water guzzlers, mostly because they so often rely on evaporative cooling to function. In places where water is scarce, they can compete with households, farms, and other businesses, driving prices way up…or leading to shortages. And while there are some ways to make water use more efficient, these come with their own tradeoffs, like requiring a lot more energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Still, as challenging as these “local proximity issues” are to deal with–Meghan says they are NOT what concerns her most about AI’s potential impact on the climate. In part because they SHOULD be solvable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I think that many of the proximity concerns could be solved by altering where data centers are built. There’s a lot of parts of this country that don’t have a lot of people in them, right? There are less dense, less populated places that could be chosen for data centers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> But why aren’t they?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s not as convenient.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> It’ll cost more money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I don’t know if the land will cost more money but it’s not as easily connected. It’s not necessarily where the eventual employees that you wanna have running the data center or interacting with the data center are most easily located.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So I can see why people are so angry about having a data center as a next-door neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what makes data centers bad neighbors is not necessarily what makes them so bad for the climate overall. What Meghan Busse–a researcher who studies climate policy–is most concerned about … is energy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think that the electricity use might be the thing that is most distinctive about AI. And the reason for this is that electricity use in the US and the EU and these sort of high income developed countries, was increasing pretty steadily along with population and GDP from post World War II until about 2000. And then it flattened out. And this isn’t because people didn’t want to use electricity for things. It’s because the devices that they used for electricity became more energy efficient. So we could get more of what economists call energy services without needing as much electricity. But what that meant is that, for about 20 years, there wasn’t a lot of need to greatly expand or to really expand very much at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Electricity transmission, electricity distribution, the total amount of electricity generation that we could do. And then all of a sudden along comes AI which is really pretty energy intensive… electricity demand, and it’s coming at the same time that there’s an increase in vehicle electrification and an increase of automation and manufacturing. And it’s putting a real strain on the ability of electricity systems to meet that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: So. Here in the U.S., we have a couple decades where the overall amount of electricity we need to generate basically stays flat. Electricity goes into a lot more THINGS, but all those THINGS get more efficient at about the same rate. That’s two decades of not a lot of pressure to build new power plants. And then…BAM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the timing of this new strain on the electrical grid is relevant because there’s been another trend at play.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Over the last decade or 15 years, the cost of generating electricity with renewable sources, with wind and solar has fallen dramatically. So over the course of about 10 years, the cost of generating electricity with solar went down to about a tenth of what it was, and the cost of generating electricity with wind had gone down to about a third of what it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s a tenth. That means if it used to cost a dollar, it costs 10 cents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That is right. It’s a phenomenal reduction. It’s a phenomenal achievement for the climate. It might be the single best event to happen for the climate in the last 10 or 15 years. It’s just phenomenal. And it is so phenomenal that what was happening is that basically electricity generators all over the country and also in many places in the world, were in a process of transition, in a process of retiring coal-fired power plants and replacing them with solar and wind – not because they were greener, but because they were actually cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]\u003c/strong>: Thanks to just how much the economics here have changed, nearly all new electricity generators planned for the future in North America were renewables, with a bit of natural gas, but basically NO coal. This was going to be a huge win for the planet. Even better, coal plants were actively being PHASED OUT. If you cared about CO2 emissions, this was very good news. Everything was headed in the right direction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, out of nowhere, for the first time in forever, demand skyrockets. All those plans…\u003cem>poof\u003c/em>!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because these data centers – they don’t just need a ton of energy. They need it fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’re an AI company, you want to get your new data centers up and running as quickly as possible. You feel like you’re in a race: to create the best models, to capture the market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sure, in the long run, over 20 or 25 years, solar and wind are cheaper. But if you need power NOW, keeping an aging coal plant running a few more years is going to be pretty tempting. And that smooth march toward cleaner power just got a lot choppier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Coming up: the SHORT-run danger to the climate is that AI keeps fossil fuels around longer. But in the long run? Well, the jury is still out. Economist Meghan Busse offers up a scenario where the AI data center boom could actually benefit the planet. That’s after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So I wanna turn now to the future. I think you’re completely right that there is this sense that, you know, we’re straining under today’s demand and everybody is telling us AI is going to be so many times bigger in a couple of years. What the heck happens? How are we gonna keep up? And how does this not like, destroy the planet? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>So if we take the long run view of the climate, many climate scholars would tell you a key component of decarbonization is to electrify as much as we can. And the reason is because we have really good ways of producing electricity without producing carbon. So solar and wind are two of them that we’ve talked about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But nuclear energy also has the potential to produce a lot of electricity in a decarbonized way. And there’s other possibilities also out there. Things like geothermal that, you know, people are experimenting with and hoping will come up to scale. But, there are, you know, like I say, wind and solar that we already have, nuclear that we also have already, although we need to re-remember how to build it at low cost.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> Love:\u003c/strong> Just jumping in here to say, if you’re over 40, and you care about the environment, you might remember a time when environmentalists were dead set against nuclear power. There was that deadly catastrophic meltdown at Chernobyl in 1986, and a scary miss at Three Mile Island a few years earlier. Environmentalists were also concerned about the huge challenge of storing toxic nuclear waste for thousands of years.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>But in the last forty years, many scientists agree that nuclear power and storage have gotten much safer and less unwieldy. And some environmentalists now feel that the benefits of nuclear power–like not spewing carbon into the atmosphere–well outweigh the risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse\u003c/strong>: And there’s other kinds of technologies, like carbon capture that might allow us to burn fossil fuels and still capture the carbon and have it be decarbonized. So we’ve got some really great potential for being able to produce decarbonized electricity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what that means is that in the long run, I’m not that concerned from a climate perspective about anything that uses electricity. So if there were a new technology to come about that needs a lot more energy and you told me “guess what the energy it needs is electricity”, then I kind of heave a sigh of relief as opposed to saying what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more steel or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more cement. Or what we’re gonna need in the future is a lot more air travel because those are things we don’t yet know how to decarbonize very well or at very low cost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. So in the long run, because it can be electrified and because we know that there are renewable ways of getting electricity, less concern. How long is the long run? And I guess how much damage is done along the way?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> It’s a really great question because some of the answer to how long is the long run depends on how we respond in the short run. If the way we respond to the intense increase in demand is the short run, is building new fossil fuel electricity generation, like building new gas plants, those plants have a long life, 20 or 30 years. Things that exist tend to get used. And so if we respond to the short run pressure by making investments in new fossil fuel generation, then that’s gonna push that long run of decarbonization off farther, and so, for the climate, the best news scenario in some ways would be if builders of AI and data centers decided, well, wait a minute, the most reliable and fastest way for us to have the electricity we need is in some sense to be self-sufficient in a green way, to build a data center, to build accompanying, solar or wind generation, to build a battery facility that will help make sure that that power is available to us throughout the day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and some of this is happening, so I just read, Google is making plans to purchase Intersect, which is a wind and solar company bringing energy generation in house and almost kind of treating it as a competitive advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And Microsoft recently made an agreement to reopen one of the reactors at Three Mile Island. Again to do essentially self-supply with nuclear energy. So to the extent that the response to this is self-supply with some kind of green energy, that is number one, good for the climate, but potentially also good for, accelerating storage technologies, for accelerating our relearning how to build nuclear in a competitive way. Those would be the best case scenarios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Accelerating because it’s really kind of like, forcing people to innovate and act very quickly to do the kinds of things that they might otherwise do gradually over the course of 10, 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>And what drives down costs in many, many technologies is, increasing the scale of demand, basically increasing the size of the market. When you go from, here’s a technology we have thought of to one we have tested in the lab and demonstrated to one that we have done pilot projects of and works, there is this important phase between that and sort of a large scale deployment, which is increasing the scale of production enough that costs fall. And I totally believe it’s something we’ll get better at as we do it more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think that’s a really, really interesting point. Like there is a world in which we can harness all of this demand and all of this excitement for AI and actually leave the climate in a better place than it would’ve otherwise been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And I, you know, and I’m not saying this is guaranteed, I’m not saying that this is obviously what’s gonna happen, but it like, there is a path and it actually has the potential to accelerate you know, green energy and decarbonisation in ways it would be really positive for the climate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[musical interlude]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So, Meghan does see a future where demand for AI helps to accelerate deployment of low-cost green energy. But that’s not the only optimistic claim people make about AI and the climate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay. So I wanna do a kind of nerdy lightning round with you. So I’m gonna share some other ways that AI might impact the climate in a positive way. And, we’ll say zero is like, that is all just hand-wavy gobbledygook, and five is like, yeah, actually there could really be something there. Okay, you ready? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Ready. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Optimization of the energy grid.’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give that a four.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: It’s pretty good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> I’ll give it a four because it is the sort of thing that AI can do. Right. There’s already predictive maintenance being done and AI being applied to in a lot of different, manufacturing and other kinds of things. That said, it’s actually not the most important thing, I think, in the optimization of our energy system. We just need way more transmission in way more places to accommodate renewables generated in places where we historically have not had electricity generation like the Southwest. And just greater supply and greater flexibility. So I’ll give it a four ’cause AI can do it, but it’s actually not the most important thing you could do if you wanted to improve the electricity transmission grid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: That was very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>Not very lightning, but very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Very thorough. ‘Better climate modeling.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> There’s a sense in which I don’t know whether you really want AI climate models. In the sense that part of the trick about AI is that it’s a bit of a black box. Climate models are basically systems of equations. Systems of equations that capture relationships we know about heat and temperature and weather and ocean currents, and then how those translate into economic consequences. Part of the value of climate models is that we know what assumptions we have put in and we can alter those assumptions in ways that allow us to see if this were different, how would that matter for our climate predictions? I’m not sure that sort of turning that over to the more black box nature of AI is gonna improve our confidence. So I’ll give that a one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> ‘Discovery of more energy efficient materials.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. So there are absolutely applications in which materials matter – Battery chemistry, for example, is one that a lot of people are pushing on. So I’ll give that a three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Precision agriculture’, which is this idea that with the right sensors and models, we could give crops exactly what they need when they need it, improving yield, reducing waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I’m gonna give that a one, not because I don’t think AI can do it, but because, doing it more efficiently or more precisely doesn’t do a lot for decarbonization if we’re using the same techniques, in terms of fertilizer, in terms of planting, in terms of those kinds of things. So I think in order to make a big difference in agricultural emissions, we’re gonna need something other than, sort of more precisely, implementing the technologies that we have. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Ok, so Meghan doesn’t see a lot of potential in some of these super optimistic “AI will just create new things that help!” scenarios. But she does see the potential for AI to fuel a clean-energy tech boom. At least…in the future. But how can people like \u003cem>me\u003c/em> make a difference TODAY? SHOULD I feel guilty asking ChatGPT for that packing list?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So, one of the things, as I teach classes about climate, and as I talk to audiences about climate, I oftentimes get questions about, what can I do that matters?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t think people always have a very good idea of what are the first order things, like what are the big levers they have in their hand, and what are the small levers that they have in their hand? If you ask me, I would tell you that generating a packing list on ChatGPT for your vacation is not a very big climate lever. In fact, it’s a much bigger climate lever how far away you are going on your vacation and how are you going to get there? If you’re taking an airplane, the climate impact of your airplane trip is many, many, many, many, many ChatGPT queries. So I think part of the reason people have fixated on ChatGPT queries as something that is part of their climate virtual signaling, is that it seems like an easy thing to do or not do as opposed to deciding not to drive to work or not to have a furnace in my house, or…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> – not to go on vacation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> Not to go on vacation. And so we sometimes get fixated on the things that seem like, well, that just seems like an excessive choice that you are making. But if you wanna know the things that really matter, the things that really matter have to do with your more direct use of fossil fuels. Think about how you set your thermostat. Think about what you drive and where you drive. Think about where you choose to fly. Think about what you eat – Beef is especially carbon intensive. So if people are asking me, what is a marginal choice I could make in my life that would make a difference, using ChatGPT would not be at the top of my list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>Well, what about…joining some sort of collective action effort–like the protests we’re seeing against data centers? That strategy seems to have more potential, at least for those local issues. Because all data centers are not created equal, and being able to shape the kind of neighbor you have, and where it situates itself – that feels big.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Are communities able to get some concessions from these companies that allow the data centers to sort of be built, you know, somewhere in the proximity, but in ways that don’t impact people’s quality of life as much?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s actually a ton of heterogeneity as you go from place to place. I mean, it’s very different if you have something that is federally regulated, something like, you know, pharmaceuticals or those kinds of things, right? The process might be slow, but once a decision gets made for something that’s federally regulated, then that’s the decision, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you have something that, that it’s gonna be sort of a location and state by state, it’s just gonna be a lot noisier, it’s gonna be a lot less predictable, and I think that, what’s gonna turn out to be a successful strategy for communities to employ is gonna depend a lot on the particular location where they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>And perhaps what they want to get out of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And perhaps what they wanna get out of it, which may not be the same place to place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, could this be a good thing, where communities, you know, depending on the tools they have available to them, can sort of look at the situation and in a bespoke way try to come to an agreement that is going to be as much of a win-win as possible?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse: \u003c/strong>I hope so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[music bump]\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that local opposition to data centers can have an impact. Meghan sent me a newspaper article involving a powerful Utah State Senator. He served as chairman of the agency that approved that giant data center we talked about earlier, the one that was downsized to a mere 20,000 acres. And…he recently lost his Republican primary bid, in what the article called, “one of the most high-profile signs of the voter backlash to data center projects.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Which brings us to the final thing that individuals can do–something that works for these local issues and for the climate more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> If you care about having an individual impact, by far the most impactful thing you can do is how you vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> And that’s because so many of the changes you need are not about our individual consumption or our individual behavior. It’s about the \u003cem>systems\u003c/em> of how we generate energy. The systems of how we use energy, what we use energy for. The things that are really, really hard for individuals to influence with their choices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some sense, I don’t care very much about whether you use ChatGPT, I don’t care very much about whether you eat beef or not. I don’t even care about where you fly on vacation as long as you vote. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So you teach the next generation of CEOs, C-Suite Executives, and you have children of your own. What advice do you have for young people right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Meghan Busse:\u003c/strong> The advice that I have for young people now is that while it seems, like on the political front, it might seem like things are discouraging on the technology and economic front, there’s huge potential.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> decarbonize, we can \u003cem>absolutely\u003c/em> avoid the worst effects of climate change. We have many of the technologies and I totally believe that we can invent the technologies that we still need. It is absolutely within our power if we choose to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love [Voiceover]: \u003c/strong>So. In the long run, how will AI impact the climate? It depends. But after my conversation with Meghan, I’m thinking: it doesn’t depend that much on the AI itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It depends more on what we do with demand for the technology. Where and how companies build out their data centers and especially how they choose to power them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are we going to live in a world where demand pushes back our transition to clean energy, locking us into fossil fuels for decades? We’re seeing some of that world right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we can also choose a world where this explosion of demand hastens our transition to clean energy. And we’re also seeing some of that right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The politics of clean energy can look grim…But as long as clean-energy technologies keep getting cheaper and easier to scale, the optimistic scenario is still on the table.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Distributed by KQED. I’m Jess Love. Special thanks to today’s guest, Meghan Busse, an economist and associate professor at the Kellogg School of Management.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re produced by Jesse Dukes. Music by Steven Jackson. Recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney. Support and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>END\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> workers signed, sealed and delivered a petition to Google and Alphabet Inc. CEO Sundar Pichai on Thursday, asking for more protections against layoffs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of the Alphabet Workers Union descended on the company’s Mountain View campus to deliver the petition, signed by 4,500 employees. While the union leaders said that Pichai did not meet with them, they described a productive conversation with one of his staff members. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Google for comment but did not receive a response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speakers at Thursday’s press conference shared their experiences with layoffs. One speaker told a story about their colleague arriving at “take your child to work day” with a four-year-old in tow only to learn that they no longer had a job. Another talked about how some employees’ layoffs cost them visa sponsorships and threatened their ability to stay in the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091456\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees rally at the Mountain View Google campus on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The protest came at a time of mounting uncertainty for tech industry employees, many of whom are contending with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090173/too-old-for-silicon-valley-think-again-ai-is-changing-the-math\">a labor market that’s being radically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence and a housing market that’s becoming rapidly less affordable as AI companies begin their \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/08/technology/san-francisco-home-sales-openai-anthropic-ipo.html\">IPOs\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2022, companies like Oracle, Meta, LinkedIn and Amazon have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">laid off thousands of employees\u003c/a>, citing the need to shift spending elsewhere to meet AI needs, such as data center construction. In May, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an executive order focused on preparing workers and businesses for job disruptions driven by AI, including policy options such as severance standards and expanded unemployment insurance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Thursday’s press conference, union president and software engineer Parul Koul said that the campaign started in January 2023 when 12,000 Google employees were laid off “overnight.” The movement steadily gained momentum as the waves of mass layoffs continued, Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every time Google management has said it was a difficult decision. It was a response to economic headwinds,” Koul said, referencing the rounds of layoffs. “The reality is, in that same time period, Google’s valuation has gone from over $1 trillion to over $4 trillion.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Recent reporting from \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em> suggests that Google has let go of somewhere between \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/07/06/the-running-list-major-tech-layoffs-in-2026-where-employers-cited-ai/\">1,500 and 3,000\u003c/a> engineers just this year. Google’s March 2026 Securities and Exchange Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652044/000165204426000043/googexhibit991q12026.htm\">filing\u003c/a> indicates that the company has over 190,000 employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These layoffs and cuts are not difficult decisions, but simply profit being put over the people that make this company run,” Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another speaker pointed out that Google “never performed layoffs before 2023,” despite seeing “a decrease in profits during 2008.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Organizers framed the layoffs as a chapter of a longer history of exploitation and labor organizing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Parul Koul, a software engineer, speaks alongside fellow employees during a rally at the Google campus in Mountain View on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The same types of people decades ago told workers that we couldn’t have a 40-hour work week, that long hours and burnout were the cost of doing business. They told us that a weekend was impossible, that health and safety standards were impossible,” Koul said. “Workers before us have proved that all of those things are possible and more, and the only barrier to us achieving them is how organized we are.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Googlers’ petition calls for guaranteed severance, for voluntary exit packages to become an established policy and for the option to take severance as an extended paid leave instead of a lump sum to preserve their healthcare and immigration status. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They also demanded an end to the Googler Reviews and Development performance review system — known as “GRAD” — a bell curve-style grading system for employees, according to Meghan Day, an employee speaking at the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/shotchkiss\">\u003cem>Sarah Hotchkiss\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The protest came at a time of mounting uncertainty for tech industry employees, many of whom are contending with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090173/too-old-for-silicon-valley-think-again-ai-is-changing-the-math\">a labor market that’s being radically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence and a housing market that’s becoming rapidly less affordable as AI companies begin their \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/08/technology/san-francisco-home-sales-openai-anthropic-ipo.html\">IPOs\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Thursday’s press conference, union president and software engineer Parul Koul said that the campaign started in January 2023 when 12,000 Google employees were laid off “overnight.” The movement steadily gained momentum as the waves of mass layoffs continued, Koul said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Every time Google management has said it was a difficult decision. It was a response to economic headwinds,” Koul said, referencing the rounds of layoffs. “The reality is, in that same time period, Google’s valuation has gone from over $1 trillion to over $4 trillion.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Recent reporting from \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em> suggests that Google has let go of somewhere between \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/07/06/the-running-list-major-tech-layoffs-in-2026-where-employers-cited-ai/\">1,500 and 3,000\u003c/a> engineers just this year. Google’s March 2026 Securities and Exchange Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652044/000165204426000043/googexhibit991q12026.htm\">filing\u003c/a> indicates that the company has over 190,000 employees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“These layoffs and cuts are not difficult decisions, but simply profit being put over the people that make this company run,” Koul said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another speaker pointed out that Google “never performed layoffs before 2023,” despite seeing “a decrease in profits during 2008.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Organizers framed the layoffs as a chapter of a longer history of exploitation and labor organizing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The same types of people decades ago told workers that we couldn’t have a 40-hour work week, that long hours and burnout were the cost of doing business. They told us that a weekend was impossible, that health and safety standards were impossible,” Koul said. “Workers before us have proved that all of those things are possible and more, and the only barrier to us achieving them is how organized we are.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Googlers’ petition calls for guaranteed severance, for voluntary exit packages to become an established policy and for the option to take severance as an extended paid leave instead of a lump sum to preserve their healthcare and immigration status. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They also demanded an end to the Googler Reviews and Development performance review system — known as “GRAD” — a bell curve-style grading system for employees, according to Meghan Day, an employee speaking at the event.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/shotchkiss\">\u003cem>Sarah Hotchkiss\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a> workers signed, sealed and delivered a petition to Google and Alphabet Inc. CEO Sundar Pichai on Thursday, asking for more protections against layoffs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Members of the Alphabet Workers Union descended on the company’s Mountain View campus to deliver the petition, signed by 4,500 employees. While the union leaders said that Pichai did not meet with them, they described a productive conversation with one of his staff members. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Google for comment but did not receive a response. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Speakers at Thursday’s press conference shared their experiences with layoffs. One speaker told a story about their colleague arriving at “take your child to work day” with a four-year-old in tow only to learn that they no longer had a job. Another talked about how some employees’ layoffs cost them visa sponsorships and threatened their ability to stay in the U.S. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091456\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Google employees rally at the Mountain View Google campus on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The protest came at a time of mounting uncertainty for tech industry employees, many of whom are contending with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090173/too-old-for-silicon-valley-think-again-ai-is-changing-the-math\">a labor market that’s being radically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence and a housing market that’s becoming rapidly less affordable as AI companies begin their \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/08/technology/san-francisco-home-sales-openai-anthropic-ipo.html\">IPOs\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2022, companies like Oracle, Meta, LinkedIn and Amazon have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">laid off thousands of employees\u003c/a>, citing the need to shift spending elsewhere to meet AI needs, such as data center construction. In May, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an executive order focused on preparing workers and businesses for job disruptions driven by AI, including policy options such as severance standards and expanded unemployment insurance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Thursday’s press conference, union president and software engineer Parul Koul said that the campaign started in January 2023 when 12,000 Google employees were laid off “overnight.” The movement steadily gained momentum as the waves of mass layoffs continued, Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Every time Google management has said it was a difficult decision. It was a response to economic headwinds,” Koul said, referencing the rounds of layoffs. “The reality is, in that same time period, Google’s valuation has gone from over $1 trillion to over $4 trillion.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Recent reporting from \u003cem>TechCrunch\u003c/em> suggests that Google has let go of somewhere between \u003ca href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2026/07/06/the-running-list-major-tech-layoffs-in-2026-where-employers-cited-ai/\">1,500 and 3,000\u003c/a> engineers just this year. Google’s March 2026 Securities and Exchange Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652044/000165204426000043/googexhibit991q12026.htm\">filing\u003c/a> indicates that the company has over 190,000 employees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“These layoffs and cuts are not difficult decisions, but simply profit being put over the people that make this company run,” Koul said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another speaker pointed out that Google “never performed layoffs before 2023,” despite seeing “a decrease in profits during 2008.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Organizers framed the layoffs as a chapter of a longer history of exploitation and labor organizing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GOOGLEUNION-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Parul Koul, a software engineer, speaks alongside fellow employees during a rally at the Google campus in Mountain View on July 16, 2026, to demand job security protections. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The same types of people decades ago told workers that we couldn’t have a 40-hour work week, that long hours and burnout were the cost of doing business. They told us that a weekend was impossible, that health and safety standards were impossible,” Koul said. “Workers before us have proved that all of those things are possible and more, and the only barrier to us achieving them is how organized we are.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Googlers’ petition calls for guaranteed severance, for voluntary exit packages to become an established policy and for the option to take severance as an extended paid leave instead of a lump sum to preserve their healthcare and immigration status. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They also demanded an end to the Googler Reviews and Development performance review system — known as “GRAD” — a bell curve-style grading system for employees, according to Meghan Day, an employee speaking at the event.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>KQED’s \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/shotchkiss\">\u003cem>Sarah Hotchkiss\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> contributed to this report. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>This week, Lee Hepner rode his bike to the Grocery Outlet in the Mission District in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> — but not to go shopping. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was looking for a postcard-sized sticker on the front door that some might miss, alerting customers that the store was scanning the face of every person who walked in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Face Matching software is being used to prevent shoplifting,” the sign read, accompanied by a QR code with information about opting out of your data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Rarely do I have a situation where surveillance technology is popping up in my backyard,” said Hepner, senior legal counsel at the American Economic Liberties Project. In 2019, he helped write policy making San Francisco the first city in the country to bar its own agencies, including police, from using facial recognition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside, he counted three cameras near the entrance and dozens more down every aisle and over every checkout. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign on the door notifies customers about facial matching at a Grocery Outlet location on South Van Ness Avenue in San Francisco on July 16, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is just blanketed with surveillance cameras,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Emeryville-based Grocery Outlet has rolled out software by an AI company called SAFR Guard at several Bay Area stores, including Pleasant Hill and the San Francisco location Hepner visited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The technology is designed to identify people suspected of shoplifting, according to its privacy policy, and notifies employees if someone on a watchlist enters a store. SAFR Guard builds a database of “subjects of interest” across the retailers using it, Hepner said — meaning whoever lands on a watchlist at one store can follow them to another.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s part of a quiet spread of automated anti-theft tools into neighborhood groceries and retail businesses. As retail theft rates have increased in recent years — shoplifting in California was \u003ca href=\"https://www.ppic.org/blog/overall-crime-in-california-fell-last-year-but-shoplifting-continued-to-rise/\">47.5% higher in 2024\u003c/a> than before the pandemic, according to the Public Policy Institute of California — companies like Target, Walmart and grocers like Wegmans have introduced the software. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s legal in California, according to the state’s \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa\">consumer privacy\u003c/a> laws. Businesses must notify customers that facial recognition is in use, and shoppers can “opt out” by petitioning the company to delete their data — or by not entering the store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is a dragnet that scans everyone. Even if you’ve done nothing wrong, your face is being scanned,” said Mario Trujillo, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner said that opting out may not be a realistic financial option for many discount grocery customers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Grocery Outlet is one of the only, if not the only, grocery store that caters to low-income [people]” in the Bay Area, he said. “It’s not as if a lot of these shoppers have the choice to go shop somewhere else. It is essentially a tax on their privacy assessed every time they go to the grocery store to put food on the table.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Civil-liberties advocates have long raised alarms over the risk of misidentification. In December 2023, the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/12/rite-aid-banned-using-ai-facial-recognition-after-ftc-says-retailer-deployed-technology-without\">banned Rite Aid\u003c/a> from using facial recognition for five years after finding the chain’s system falsely tagged shoppers — disproportionately women and people of color — as shoplifters, leading employees to accuse innocent customers of wrongdoing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner said San Francisco banned the technology for government use precisely because research shows it “disproportionately misidentified people with darker complexions and faces of women.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SAFR Guard defends the system as narrow and privacy-conscious. In a statement, company President Charisse Jacques said the software “is not a law enforcement system and has no connection with law enforcement,” and it does not build “a general-purpose face matching database of the public.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091346\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Grocery Outlet location on Bayshore Boulevard in San Francisco on July 16, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The system only holds data on people a retailer has added to a security list after an incident, such as suspected theft, Jacques said. \u003ca href=\"https://safrguard.ai/\">According to their privacy policy\u003c/a>, records on suspected individuals are kept for up to 12 months, while encrypted images and general CCTV footage are automatically deleted after 30 days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shoppers who aren’t matched to that list are never stored at all: their biometric data “never leave the camera and are immediately deleted.” She said that SAFR has never shared retailer or shopper data with any government agency, including ICE, and has never received a court order or subpoena for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grocery Outlet did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner doesn’t dispute that the store’s current privacy policy is narrow. His worry is what would happen if the software is abused. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Today it’s just facial recognition for the purpose of preventing crime,” he said. “But tomorrow, this technology, without changing the camera, with only tweaks to the back-end software, can be used to surveil workers, can be used to collect information from every shopper who enters the store.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Major chains like Kroger are experimenting with dynamic pricing — or using personal data and tracking to adjust prices for each customer — and the ACLU \u003ca href=\"https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/retailers-secretively-using-face-recognition\">reported \u003c/a>in January that Wegmans shares information with law enforcement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beyond markets, bars in the Castro have begun scanning patrons’ faces at the door with ID-verification software, he noted — bars he said he now avoids. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A patron database “may not seem like a big problem” in San Francisco but carries real risk “under a broader federal regime that’s increasingly cracking down on trans rights and on gay rights,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trujillo recommended a change to state law in line with what Illinois and Colorado are doing, requiring stores to seek out affirmative consent from consumers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner worries the drift is heading the other way. This week, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors gave final approval to a broad \u003ca href=\"https://sfgov.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7423230&GUID=9C3D32F7-1A6A-43E7-913C-B1ACFC59E312\">“code cleanup” ordinance\u003c/a> that loosens the very oversight law he helped write by slashing the city-required audit of each department’s surveillance technology to at least once every five years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You make policy to address the risk of harm,” he said, “even if that harm is on the fringes of the use of that technology, because I can guarantee you it will be mainstream tomorrow.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Rarely do I have a situation where surveillance technology is popping up in my backyard,” said Hepner, senior legal counsel at the American Economic Liberties Project. In 2019, he helped write policy making San Francisco the first city in the country to bar its own agencies, including police, from using facial recognition. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Emeryville-based Grocery Outlet has rolled out software by an AI company called SAFR Guard at several Bay Area stores, including Pleasant Hill and the San Francisco location Hepner visited. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The technology is designed to identify people suspected of shoplifting, according to its privacy policy, and notifies employees if someone on a watchlist enters a store. SAFR Guard builds a database of “subjects of interest” across the retailers using it, Hepner said — meaning whoever lands on a watchlist at one store can follow them to another.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s part of a quiet spread of automated anti-theft tools into neighborhood groceries and retail businesses. As retail theft rates have increased in recent years — shoplifting in California was \u003ca href=\"https://www.ppic.org/blog/overall-crime-in-california-fell-last-year-but-shoplifting-continued-to-rise/\">47.5% higher in 2024\u003c/a> than before the pandemic, according to the Public Policy Institute of California — companies like Target, Walmart and grocers like Wegmans have introduced the software. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s legal in California, according to the state’s \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa\">consumer privacy\u003c/a> laws. Businesses must notify customers that facial recognition is in use, and shoppers can “opt out” by petitioning the company to delete their data — or by not entering the store.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is a dragnet that scans everyone. Even if you’ve done nothing wrong, your face is being scanned,” said Mario Trujillo, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hepner said that opting out may not be a realistic financial option for many discount grocery customers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Grocery Outlet is one of the only, if not the only, grocery store that caters to low-income [people]” in the Bay Area, he said. “It’s not as if a lot of these shoppers have the choice to go shop somewhere else. It is essentially a tax on their privacy assessed every time they go to the grocery store to put food on the table.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Civil-liberties advocates have long raised alarms over the risk of misidentification. In December 2023, the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/12/rite-aid-banned-using-ai-facial-recognition-after-ftc-says-retailer-deployed-technology-without\">banned Rite Aid\u003c/a> from using facial recognition for five years after finding the chain’s system falsely tagged shoppers — disproportionately women and people of color — as shoplifters, leading employees to accuse innocent customers of wrongdoing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Civil-liberties advocates have long raised alarms over the risk of misidentification. In December 2023, the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/12/rite-aid-banned-using-ai-facial-recognition-after-ftc-says-retailer-deployed-technology-without\">banned Rite Aid\u003c/a> from using facial recognition for five years after finding the chain’s system falsely tagged shoppers — disproportionately women and people of color — as shoplifters, leading employees to accuse innocent customers of wrongdoing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hepner said San Francisco banned the technology for government use precisely because research shows it “disproportionately misidentified people with darker complexions and faces of women.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>SAFR Guard defends the system as narrow and privacy-conscious. In a statement, company President Charisse Jacques said the software “is not a law enforcement system and has no connection with law enforcement,” and it does not build “a general-purpose face matching database of the public.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>SAFR Guard defends the system as narrow and privacy-conscious. In a statement, company President Charisse Jacques said the software “is not a law enforcement system and has no connection with law enforcement,” and it does not build “a general-purpose face matching database of the public.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091346\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Grocery Outlet location on Bayshore Boulevard in San Francisco on July 16, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The system only holds data on people a retailer has added to a security list after an incident, such as suspected theft, Jacques said. \u003ca href=\"https://safrguard.ai/\">According to their privacy policy\u003c/a>, records on suspected individuals are kept for up to 12 months, while encrypted images and general CCTV footage are automatically deleted after 30 days.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The system only holds data on people a retailer has added to a security list after an incident, such as suspected theft, Jacques said. \u003ca href=\"https://safrguard.ai/\">According to their privacy policy\u003c/a>, records on suspected individuals are kept for up to 12 months, while encrypted images and general CCTV footage are automatically deleted after 30 days.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shoppers who aren’t matched to that list are never stored at all: their biometric data “never leave the camera and are immediately deleted.” She said that SAFR has never shared retailer or shopper data with any government agency, including ICE, and has never received a court order or subpoena for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Today it’s just facial recognition for the purpose of preventing crime,” he said. “But tomorrow, this technology, without changing the camera, with only tweaks to the back-end software, can be used to surveil workers, can be used to collect information from every shopper who enters the store.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Major chains like Kroger are experimenting with dynamic pricing — or using personal data and tracking to adjust prices for each customer — and the ACLU \u003ca href=\"https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/retailers-secretively-using-face-recognition\">reported \u003c/a>in January that Wegmans shares information with law enforcement. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Beyond markets, bars in the Castro have begun scanning patrons’ faces at the door with ID-verification software, he noted — bars he said he now avoids. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hepner worries the drift is heading the other way. This week, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors gave final approval to a broad \u003ca href=\"https://sfgov.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7423230&GUID=9C3D32F7-1A6A-43E7-913C-B1ACFC59E312\">“code cleanup” ordinance\u003c/a> that loosens the very oversight law he helped write by slashing the city-required audit of each department’s surveillance technology to at least once every five years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Grocery Outlet stores in San Francisco and the East Bay are using facial recognition technology to identify suspected shoplifters, raising concerns about surveillance and consent. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>This week, Lee Hepner rode his bike to the Grocery Outlet in the Mission District in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a> — but not to go shopping. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was looking for a postcard-sized sticker on the front door that some might miss, alerting customers that the store was scanning the face of every person who walked in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Face Matching software is being used to prevent shoplifting,” the sign read, accompanied by a QR code with information about opting out of your data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Rarely do I have a situation where surveillance technology is popping up in my backyard,” said Hepner, senior legal counsel at the American Economic Liberties Project. In 2019, he helped write policy making San Francisco the first city in the country to bar its own agencies, including police, from using facial recognition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside, he counted three cameras near the entrance and dozens more down every aisle and over every checkout. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-03-BL-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign on the door notifies customers about facial matching at a Grocery Outlet location on South Van Ness Avenue in San Francisco on July 16, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It is just blanketed with surveillance cameras,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Emeryville-based Grocery Outlet has rolled out software by an AI company called SAFR Guard at several Bay Area stores, including Pleasant Hill and the San Francisco location Hepner visited. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The technology is designed to identify people suspected of shoplifting, according to its privacy policy, and notifies employees if someone on a watchlist enters a store. SAFR Guard builds a database of “subjects of interest” across the retailers using it, Hepner said — meaning whoever lands on a watchlist at one store can follow them to another.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s part of a quiet spread of automated anti-theft tools into neighborhood groceries and retail businesses. As retail theft rates have increased in recent years — shoplifting in California was \u003ca href=\"https://www.ppic.org/blog/overall-crime-in-california-fell-last-year-but-shoplifting-continued-to-rise/\">47.5% higher in 2024\u003c/a> than before the pandemic, according to the Public Policy Institute of California — companies like Target, Walmart and grocers like Wegmans have introduced the software. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s legal in California, according to the state’s \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa\">consumer privacy\u003c/a> laws. Businesses must notify customers that facial recognition is in use, and shoppers can “opt out” by petitioning the company to delete their data — or by not entering the store.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This is a dragnet that scans everyone. Even if you’ve done nothing wrong, your face is being scanned,” said Mario Trujillo, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner said that opting out may not be a realistic financial option for many discount grocery customers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Grocery Outlet is one of the only, if not the only, grocery store that caters to low-income [people]” in the Bay Area, he said. “It’s not as if a lot of these shoppers have the choice to go shop somewhere else. It is essentially a tax on their privacy assessed every time they go to the grocery store to put food on the table.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Civil-liberties advocates have long raised alarms over the risk of misidentification. In December 2023, the Federal Trade Commission \u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/12/rite-aid-banned-using-ai-facial-recognition-after-ftc-says-retailer-deployed-technology-without\">banned Rite Aid\u003c/a> from using facial recognition for five years after finding the chain’s system falsely tagged shoppers — disproportionately women and people of color — as shoplifters, leading employees to accuse innocent customers of wrongdoing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner said San Francisco banned the technology for government use precisely because research shows it “disproportionately misidentified people with darker complexions and faces of women.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>SAFR Guard defends the system as narrow and privacy-conscious. In a statement, company President Charisse Jacques said the software “is not a law enforcement system and has no connection with law enforcement,” and it does not build “a general-purpose face matching database of the public.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091346\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260716-GROCOUTAI-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Grocery Outlet location on Bayshore Boulevard in San Francisco on July 16, 2026. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The system only holds data on people a retailer has added to a security list after an incident, such as suspected theft, Jacques said. \u003ca href=\"https://safrguard.ai/\">According to their privacy policy\u003c/a>, records on suspected individuals are kept for up to 12 months, while encrypted images and general CCTV footage are automatically deleted after 30 days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shoppers who aren’t matched to that list are never stored at all: their biometric data “never leave the camera and are immediately deleted.” She said that SAFR has never shared retailer or shopper data with any government agency, including ICE, and has never received a court order or subpoena for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Grocery Outlet did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner doesn’t dispute that the store’s current privacy policy is narrow. His worry is what would happen if the software is abused. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Today it’s just facial recognition for the purpose of preventing crime,” he said. “But tomorrow, this technology, without changing the camera, with only tweaks to the back-end software, can be used to surveil workers, can be used to collect information from every shopper who enters the store.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Major chains like Kroger are experimenting with dynamic pricing — or using personal data and tracking to adjust prices for each customer — and the ACLU \u003ca href=\"https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/retailers-secretively-using-face-recognition\">reported \u003c/a>in January that Wegmans shares information with law enforcement. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beyond markets, bars in the Castro have begun scanning patrons’ faces at the door with ID-verification software, he noted — bars he said he now avoids. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A patron database “may not seem like a big problem” in San Francisco but carries real risk “under a broader federal regime that’s increasingly cracking down on trans rights and on gay rights,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Trujillo recommended a change to state law in line with what Illinois and Colorado are doing, requiring stores to seek out affirmative consent from consumers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hepner worries the drift is heading the other way. This week, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors gave final approval to a broad \u003ca href=\"https://sfgov.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7423230&GUID=9C3D32F7-1A6A-43E7-913C-B1ACFC59E312\">“code cleanup” ordinance\u003c/a> that loosens the very oversight law he helped write by slashing the city-required audit of each department’s surveillance technology to at least once every five years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "san-francisco-mayor-daniel-lurie-calls-on-state-to-tighten-autonomous-vehicle-regulations",
"title": "San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie Calls on State to Tighten Autonomous Vehicle Regulations",
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"headTitle": "San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie Calls on State to Tighten Autonomous Vehicle Regulations | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>After recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074861/waymo-to-report-on-mass-stranding-event-during-sf-december-blackout\">traffic meltdowns involving Waymo\u003c/a> vehicles \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089915/sf-supe-to-launch-inquiry-on-waymos-july-fourth-traffic-meltdown\">during major events\u003c/a>, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie is calling on state regulators to set new standards for autonomous vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The mayor sent a letter to state Secretary of Transportation Toks Omishakin on Thursday highlighting the recent traffic jams involving Waymo cars on the Fourth of July and last year during the city’s widespread power outages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Regulating for typical conditions is no longer enough,” Lurie wrote. “California’s challenge now is not just whether autonomous vehicles can operate safely under normal conditions, but also whether they can perform reliably during extraordinary ones.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lurie, a moderate Democrat, has championed San Francisco as the birthplace of autonomous vehicles, which he views as a boon to the city’s local economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2048\" height=\"1536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090009\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073-2000x1500.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2048px) 100vw, 2048px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">More than 30 Waymos became stuck in the only parking area for the San Francisco fireworks show on July 4, 2026, blocking parking for hours. (Courtesy of Dr. R, AGI Summit 2026)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Each transportation innovation has evolved over time to meet the needs of a dynamic city,” the mayor wrote. “We believe now is the time for regulators and autonomous vehicle companies to evolve as well.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Criticism after high-profile events like the Fourth of July fireworks display over the Golden Gate Bridge, when dozens of stalled Waymo vehicles delayed traffic, has led him to strike a more tempered tune around Waymo and other self-driving car companies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lurie wrote that all autonomous vehicle companies should be able to prove they are ready for large crowds and changing traffic patterns during major events before they are deployed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Even before the fireworks began, Waymo vehicles struggled to navigate growing volumes of vehicular traffic and pedestrians. By the end of the fireworks show, autonomous vehicles became immobilized in travel lanes, blocking key streets and ultimately bringing traffic to a standstill. Muni shuttles were trapped in the gridlock,” the letter read. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Public Utilities Commission and Department of Motor Vehicles regulate autonomous vehicles, and while Lurie’s letter could help generate attention and pressure, he has little authority to set standards for the technology, even in his own city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The mayor’s letter comes after increasing scrutiny over Waymo traffic disruptions from city supervisors like Bilal Mahmood, who called on the company to report what led to several of their taxis being stranded during a massive blackout in parts of the city last December. He has also submitted a letter of inquiry on the July 4 traffic breakdown. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supervisor Jackie Fielder also questioned vehicle safety after a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">Waymo ran over and killed a local bodega cat\u003c/a> in the Mission District last year, drawing attention to local governments’ lack of control over how autonomous vehicles are deployed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waymo appeared before the Board of Supervisors at a public hearing in March, where first responders said the vehicles can pose serious \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12075147/is-waymo-ready-for-another-emergency-san-francisco-supervisors-are-skeptical\">risks to emergency services\u003c/a> by blocking streets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I just don’t think this is ready right now,” Sam Gebler, president of the local firefighters’ union, said of autonomous vehicle technology. “We have seen situations where they travel in a long line and if the first one doesn’t know what to do, the rest turn into paperweights, and it causes a chain reaction that blocks the road.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for Waymo said the company has successfully supported other major events, such as the NBA All-Star Weekend and FIFA World Cup Games. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The city and Waymo share a mutual goal of providing safe and accessible transportation for visitors and residents alike,” the spokesperson said. “We will continue to partner with the city’s agencies, collaborating with them on the learnings based on the millions of rides we have provided in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074861/waymo-to-report-on-mass-stranding-event-during-sf-december-blackout\">traffic meltdowns involving Waymo\u003c/a> vehicles \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089915/sf-supe-to-launch-inquiry-on-waymos-july-fourth-traffic-meltdown\">during major events\u003c/a>, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie is calling on state regulators to set new standards for autonomous vehicles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The mayor sent a letter to state Secretary of Transportation Toks Omishakin on Thursday highlighting the recent traffic jams involving Waymo cars on the Fourth of July and last year during the city’s widespread power outages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The mayor sent a letter to state Secretary of Transportation Toks Omishakin on Thursday highlighting the recent traffic jams involving Waymo cars on the Fourth of July and last year during the city’s widespread power outages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Regulating for typical conditions is no longer enough,” Lurie wrote. “California’s challenge now is not just whether autonomous vehicles can operate safely under normal conditions, but also whether they can perform reliably during extraordinary ones.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Regulating for typical conditions is no longer enough,” Lurie wrote. “California’s challenge now is not just whether autonomous vehicles can operate safely under normal conditions, but also whether they can perform reliably during extraordinary ones.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lurie, a moderate Democrat, has championed San Francisco as the birthplace of autonomous vehicles, which he views as a boon to the city’s local economy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Each transportation innovation has evolved over time to meet the needs of a dynamic city,” the mayor wrote. “We believe now is the time for regulators and autonomous vehicle companies to evolve as well.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Criticism after high-profile events like the Fourth of July fireworks display over the Golden Gate Bridge, when dozens of stalled Waymo vehicles delayed traffic, has led him to strike a more tempered tune around Waymo and other self-driving car companies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Criticism after high-profile events like the Fourth of July fireworks display over the Golden Gate Bridge, when dozens of stalled Waymo vehicles delayed traffic, has led him to strike a more tempered tune around Waymo and other self-driving car companies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lurie wrote that all autonomous vehicle companies should be able to prove they are ready for large crowds and changing traffic patterns during major events before they are deployed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Even before the fireworks began, Waymo vehicles struggled to navigate growing volumes of vehicular traffic and pedestrians. By the end of the fireworks show, autonomous vehicles became immobilized in travel lanes, blocking key streets and ultimately bringing traffic to a standstill. Muni shuttles were trapped in the gridlock,” the letter read. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Even before the fireworks began, Waymo vehicles struggled to navigate growing volumes of vehicular traffic and pedestrians. By the end of the fireworks show, autonomous vehicles became immobilized in travel lanes, blocking key streets and ultimately bringing traffic to a standstill. Muni shuttles were trapped in the gridlock,” the letter read. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The California Public Utilities Commission and Department of Motor Vehicles regulate autonomous vehicles, and while Lurie’s letter could help generate attention and pressure, he has little authority to set standards for the technology, even in his own city. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The mayor’s letter comes after increasing scrutiny over Waymo traffic disruptions from city supervisors like Bilal Mahmood, who called on the company to report what led to several of their taxis being stranded during a massive blackout in parts of the city last December. He has also submitted a letter of inquiry on the July 4 traffic breakdown. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Supervisor Jackie Fielder also questioned vehicle safety after a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">Waymo ran over and killed a local bodega cat\u003c/a> in the Mission District last year, drawing attention to local governments’ lack of control over how autonomous vehicles are deployed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Waymo appeared before the Board of Supervisors at a public hearing in March, where first responders said the vehicles can pose serious \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12075147/is-waymo-ready-for-another-emergency-san-francisco-supervisors-are-skeptical\">risks to emergency services\u003c/a> by blocking streets.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I just don’t think this is ready right now,” Sam Gebler, president of the local firefighters’ union, said of autonomous vehicle technology. “We have seen situations where they travel in a long line and if the first one doesn’t know what to do, the rest turn into paperweights, and it causes a chain reaction that blocks the road.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for Waymo said the company has successfully supported other major events, such as the NBA All-Star Weekend and FIFA World Cup Games. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The city and Waymo share a mutual goal of providing safe and accessible transportation for visitors and residents alike,” the spokesperson said. “We will continue to partner with the city’s agencies, collaborating with them on the learnings based on the millions of rides we have provided in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Lurie’s letter to the state transportation secretary comes just weeks after a massive backup of stalled Waymo vehicles snarled the city’s Fourth of July festivities. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>After recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074861/waymo-to-report-on-mass-stranding-event-during-sf-december-blackout\">traffic meltdowns involving Waymo\u003c/a> vehicles \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089915/sf-supe-to-launch-inquiry-on-waymos-july-fourth-traffic-meltdown\">during major events\u003c/a>, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie is calling on state regulators to set new standards for autonomous vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The mayor sent a letter to state Secretary of Transportation Toks Omishakin on Thursday highlighting the recent traffic jams involving Waymo cars on the Fourth of July and last year during the city’s widespread power outages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Regulating for typical conditions is no longer enough,” Lurie wrote. “California’s challenge now is not just whether autonomous vehicles can operate safely under normal conditions, but also whether they can perform reliably during extraordinary ones.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lurie, a moderate Democrat, has championed San Francisco as the birthplace of autonomous vehicles, which he views as a boon to the city’s local economy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2048\" height=\"1536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12090009\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073-2000x1500.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/IMG_0073-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2048px) 100vw, 2048px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">More than 30 Waymos became stuck in the only parking area for the San Francisco fireworks show on July 4, 2026, blocking parking for hours. (Courtesy of Dr. R, AGI Summit 2026)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Each transportation innovation has evolved over time to meet the needs of a dynamic city,” the mayor wrote. “We believe now is the time for regulators and autonomous vehicle companies to evolve as well.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Criticism after high-profile events like the Fourth of July fireworks display over the Golden Gate Bridge, when dozens of stalled Waymo vehicles delayed traffic, has led him to strike a more tempered tune around Waymo and other self-driving car companies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lurie wrote that all autonomous vehicle companies should be able to prove they are ready for large crowds and changing traffic patterns during major events before they are deployed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Even before the fireworks began, Waymo vehicles struggled to navigate growing volumes of vehicular traffic and pedestrians. By the end of the fireworks show, autonomous vehicles became immobilized in travel lanes, blocking key streets and ultimately bringing traffic to a standstill. Muni shuttles were trapped in the gridlock,” the letter read. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Public Utilities Commission and Department of Motor Vehicles regulate autonomous vehicles, and while Lurie’s letter could help generate attention and pressure, he has little authority to set standards for the technology, even in his own city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The mayor’s letter comes after increasing scrutiny over Waymo traffic disruptions from city supervisors like Bilal Mahmood, who called on the company to report what led to several of their taxis being stranded during a massive blackout in parts of the city last December. He has also submitted a letter of inquiry on the July 4 traffic breakdown. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supervisor Jackie Fielder also questioned vehicle safety after a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">Waymo ran over and killed a local bodega cat\u003c/a> in the Mission District last year, drawing attention to local governments’ lack of control over how autonomous vehicles are deployed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waymo appeared before the Board of Supervisors at a public hearing in March, where first responders said the vehicles can pose serious \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12075147/is-waymo-ready-for-another-emergency-san-francisco-supervisors-are-skeptical\">risks to emergency services\u003c/a> by blocking streets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I just don’t think this is ready right now,” Sam Gebler, president of the local firefighters’ union, said of autonomous vehicle technology. “We have seen situations where they travel in a long line and if the first one doesn’t know what to do, the rest turn into paperweights, and it causes a chain reaction that blocks the road.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for Waymo said the company has successfully supported other major events, such as the NBA All-Star Weekend and FIFA World Cup Games. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The city and Waymo share a mutual goal of providing safe and accessible transportation for visitors and residents alike,” the spokesperson said. “We will continue to partner with the city’s agencies, collaborating with them on the learnings based on the millions of rides we have provided in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Too Old for Silicon Valley? Think Again. AI Is Changing the Math",
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"content": "\u003cp>Longtime tech worker Ben Kovitz grew up far from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/siliconvalley\">Silicon Valley\u003c/a> — in Appleton, Wisconsin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If fewer than 26 inches of snow fell in a night, they wouldn’t close school, because they had the plows to clear those streets by morning,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jobs pulled him to sunny California first in the 1980s, where he spent about 15 years in tech. His first full-time programming job was at a small company in Encino called Information Management Systems, where he learned, as he puts it, “most of what I know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps his most prestigious gig was at Palm, Inc., the consumer electronics and software pioneer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The perks weren’t as lavish as at Google during the “glory days” of Silicon Valley employment, but there was a ping pong table, and the cafeteria was “fantastic,” which meant a lot to the young foodie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He eventually pivoted to academia, feeling he could be “paid to indulge my curiosity and teach, which are two things that I would do all the time if I could,” pursued a Ph.D. in cognitive science and computer science at Indiana University, and became a\u003ca href=\"https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/professor/3045066\"> computer science professor\u003c/a> at Cal Poly Humboldt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12088445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12088445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ben Kovitz poses for a portrait at his place of work at Impulse Labs in San Francisco on June 19, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But when Kovitz decided last year to return to full-time work in Silicon Valley, he discovered a labor market \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">dramatically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’d reinvented himself before. The question was whether the industry would let him do it again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It turns out, yes. For all of Silicon Valley’s recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11939910/a-layoff-spree-at-bay-area-tech-companies\">mass layoffs\u003c/a> and historic \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/perspectives/201503250643/older-and-out-of-work-in-silicon-valley\">ageism\u003c/a>, experienced engineers like Kovitz who can confidently work with AI may have a better chance of riding tech’s next wave than the news headlines suggest. But to survive the brutal hiring gauntlet, they just might need to invest in help — both human and AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is the market leaning in favor of experience?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Overall, tech jobs are surging. Online employment marketplace ZipRecruiter, which tracks job postings in IT and computer science, reports they were up 16.7% year-over-year nationally in May.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that rosy picture looks different depending on your experience level. The share of senior-level job postings has risen to 43.1%, up from 38.8% a year ago. At the same time, the share of entry-level job postings has fallen slightly, from 8.1% to 7.4%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A key challenge within this job market is a distinct preference for senior or highly-skilled talent over entry-level hires,” ZipRecruiter labor economist Nicole Bachaud wrote to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_10987745\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-10987745 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/06/gettyimages-186125057-e35bb49a8d56f4c7fe56263444f7b0703ecaede7-e1465833964313.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">LinkedIn logos are displayed on laptop computers \u003ccite>(Andrew Harrer/Bloomberg-Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s not great news for newly minted college graduates, but it is a hopeful sign for Kovitz and others with decades of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, more than a quarter of employers now ask for AI skills. That’s nearly double the share a year ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This surge is primarily fueled by businesses expanding their AI integrations, products, and services, creating high demand for workers to implement and deploy these new tools,” Bachaud wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fastest-growing roles in software engineering aren’t traditional coding jobs, according to Kory Kantenga, head of economics for the Americas at LinkedIn. They’re positions like “forward-deployed engineer,” a title \u003ca href=\"https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/forward-deployed-engineers\">pioneered\u003c/a> by companies like Palantir to describe engineers who embed directly with clients to install, customize and troubleshoot AI tools on-site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LinkedIn has seen an 18-fold increase in such roles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Those are the roles that we see have a lot of momentum,” Kantenga said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How Ben Did It\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While shy about sharing his exact age, Kovitz will say he’s old enough “to have watched\u003ca href=\"https://www.nasa.gov/history/apollo-16-launches-to-the-moon/\"> moon shots\u003c/a> on television” as a boy in the early 1970s, and to have programmed computers with \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG2M4ttzBnY\">punch cards\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s also old enough to know the Silicon Valley job market is vastly different from the one he learned to navigate at the start of his career. Today, AI defines not only the jobs, but the job search as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Applicants use AI to fire off applications while employers use AI to screen them. The impacts are especially acute in Silicon Valley, where the internet has turned many job openings into a worldwide competition with thousands of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085049/even-some-tech-workers-cant-afford-to-stay-when-the-bay-is-this-expensive\">well-qualified applicants\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985952\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11985952 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023. \u003ccite>(Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I watched a friend struggle for a year after he finished his master’s degree,” he said, “and filling out applications every single day, hours a day. It took him a year to get a job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz decided he needed to pay for professional help to reduce the strength and duration of the struggle ahead of him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Reducing that by a few months and also reducing the sheer pain of it, that is easily worth it,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He signed up with two companies that offer job search support:\u003ca href=\"https://www.applypass.com\"> ApplyPass\u003c/a> and Resume Wizard 101, which has recently rebranded to \u003ca href=\"https://careerlander.com\">Career Lander\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Resume Wizard assigned Kovitz a “reverse recruiter” who sent him new prospects daily, including many that Kovitz might never have considered on his own. The recruiter then filled out about 100 applications a month on his behalf.[aside postID=news_12089434 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/CAT-%E2%80%94-The-Bay-Feed-Drop.img_.png']ApplyPass used an AI agent to fire off applications at industrial volume — 400 a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Given the volume of “cold applications” coming at employers, it’s essential job seekers — or agents acting on their behalf — reach out to the relevant person at the company who has some influence over the hiring process, according to Neil Bhatt, Career Lander’s founder and CEO. “The conversion rate (from application to interview) skyrockets when you actually do some sort of networking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz said Resume Wizard 101’s human touch led to a higher rate of employer responses. But ApplyPass isn’t solely automated. The company provided a coach to help navigate “some of the weird things they do in software engineering interviews today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After every interview, Kovitz shared how he responded to certain questions, and the ApplyPass coach suggested alternative approaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We talked about what went right and what went badly,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These services aren’t cheap. ApplyPass’s auto-apply plans range from free to about $199 a month, while Resume Wizard 101’s human-run packages range from roughly $300 for a single résumé revision to $10,000 for full ‘career search management.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12088446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12088446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ben Kovitz poses for a portrait at his place of work at Impulse Labs in San Francisco on June 19, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But senior software engineers in San Francisco earn a median total compensation north of $270,000 a year, according to Glassdoor, so Kovitz figured the math was likely to pencil out for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He was also surprised to find some prospective employers that want proof a software engineer can work with AI. “Go at it with AI,” he was instructed in one memorable interview. “Just throw everything you’ve got at it. Let’s see how you do it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was new to Kovitz, but he dove in with gusto. “I blasted out 2,000 lines of code and solved the problem,” Kovitz said. “But I also saw that the solution wasn’t that great.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz said he thinks getting useful work out of an AI coding agent takes judgment that only comes with experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a senior engineer, Kovitz argued, he was able to look at those 2,000 machine-generated lines of code, recognize their shortcomings, and then know what to do about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of what you do with AI is you work out a plan, a little conversation with the AI, because if you just tell the AI ‘Do this thing,’ with no plan, it is going to make a gigantic mess, and you are going to spend a week debugging it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Effective prompts require understanding the code and what the company wants from it at a granular level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You need to know how all kinds of things can go wrong. Junior programmers don’t have that. They haven’t seen the development of code over a long period of time,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really a game of marketing at the end of the day,” said Bhatt at Career Lander. He said any employer is going to choose the person who can best explain how they use their experience to help this company. “The better job you’re doing at articulating how you can solve their problems, the easier it becomes to land that position.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a survey of 400 engineering leaders in the \u003ca href=\"https://karat.com/engineering-interview-trends-2026/\">U.S., India and China\u003c/a> by Karat, a company that runs technical interviews for hire, 73% said a strong engineer is worth at least three times their total compensation, something they specifically attributed to AI’s impact on productivity. The same survey found that AI is widening the gap between strong and weaker engineers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So where did Ben land?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Kovitz landed a job after a six-month hunt — slightly less than average for the information sector, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat32.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>, which tracks tech workers as part of that larger group. After submitting what he estimates was around 3,000 job applications, Kovitz got a software engineering job at\u003ca href=\"https://www.impulselabs.com/the-difference?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23532288434&gbraid=0AAAAA9ieg0kwGUYoidiYsGrH1-yL_JMGl&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlqTRBhCBARIsANrkrxht1bbHUuOgRW2K2gBHBaZH3ZkB4H3XN_j9DNhIQ9zIVy-CdAhvtWEaAjBKEALw_wcB\"> Impulse Labs\u003c/a>, a San Francisco company that makes \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/impulse-cooktop-review/\">high-end induction stoves\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s happy with the job and turned other offers down to take it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Their engineering culture makes quality paramount even as they move fast,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also, as a foodie, Kovitz loves sitting with a stovetop next to his desk for hands-on testing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12088888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12088888 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An induction stovetop in the kitchen at San Francisco-based Impulse Labs. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Ben Kovitz)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Does he work with AI on the new job?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Yes. Most of the day, every day,” he said, for a wide variety of things that would otherwise take him much longer. They range from finding the relevant parts of a large program to work on, to writing small bits of code in a language he doesn’t know well, to reviewing code for errors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is both amazing when it works well, and amazingly unreliable, so I have to keep a close eye on it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s glad the job hunt is finally in his rearview mirror, but Kovitz is philosophical about the effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While it was grueling, it was also a great adventure,” he said. “I learned all kinds of stuff about industries that I’d never known anything about before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he applied for a job with a robotaxi company, he taught himself the basics of motion planning, the math behind how a self-driving car navigates. For another set of interviews, he picked up some basics about satellites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz’s facility with math and science, not to mention his natural curiosity and enthusiasm for intellectual challenges, gave him the kind of career flexibility only the most elite coders have enjoyed in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090182\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090182\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ben Kovitz poses for a portrait at his place of work at Impulse Labs in San Francisco on June 19, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But he also maintained a positive attitude by consciously framing the search as a good thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was an exciting learning experience,” Kovitz said. “It was part of life’s adventure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His advice for others still looking?\u003c/p>\n\u003col>\n\u003cli>Get help if you can afford it.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Treat the search like an eight-hour job and knock off afterward, so the rejection doesn’t grind you down: “You need to protect your morale.”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Don’t go into job interviews with an attitude of desperation. “I’m not there to get the job,” Kovitz said. “I’m there to find out if I want the job.” He added, “It’s wise to be fussy,” and hold out for an employer “that has a culture that you like, where the work is meaningful to you.”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Treat this as a numbers game: “You know, you are probably going to roll the dice 50 or 100, 150 times before you actually get a good [position].”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, as the saying goes: “There are plenty of perfectly good jobs out there for lots of people.”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ol>\n\u003cp>https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdk3i2DjzVyovGlneUjqudUOXk1699l6Ea-xE4ZgFEi2ApRIQ/viewform?usp=dialog\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Now that AI can do a lot of the work of junior programmers, Silicon Valley employers want engineers who can confidently direct it. For one experienced engineer, that shift was an opening.\r\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Longtime tech worker Ben Kovitz grew up far from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/siliconvalley\">Silicon Valley\u003c/a> — in Appleton, Wisconsin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If fewer than 26 inches of snow fell in a night, they wouldn’t close school, because they had the plows to clear those streets by morning,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jobs pulled him to sunny California first in the 1980s, where he spent about 15 years in tech. His first full-time programming job was at a small company in Encino called Information Management Systems, where he learned, as he puts it, “most of what I know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps his most prestigious gig was at Palm, Inc., the consumer electronics and software pioneer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The perks weren’t as lavish as at Google during the “glory days” of Silicon Valley employment, but there was a ping pong table, and the cafeteria was “fantastic,” which meant a lot to the young foodie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He eventually pivoted to academia, feeling he could be “paid to indulge my curiosity and teach, which are two things that I would do all the time if I could,” pursued a Ph.D. in cognitive science and computer science at Indiana University, and became a\u003ca href=\"https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/professor/3045066\"> computer science professor\u003c/a> at Cal Poly Humboldt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12088445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12088445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00297_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ben Kovitz poses for a portrait at his place of work at Impulse Labs in San Francisco on June 19, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But when Kovitz decided last year to return to full-time work in Silicon Valley, he discovered a labor market \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084655/after-meta-layoffs-newsom-signs-ai-order-to-protect-workers-and-jobs\">dramatically reshaped\u003c/a> by artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’d reinvented himself before. The question was whether the industry would let him do it again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It turns out, yes. For all of Silicon Valley’s recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11939910/a-layoff-spree-at-bay-area-tech-companies\">mass layoffs\u003c/a> and historic \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/perspectives/201503250643/older-and-out-of-work-in-silicon-valley\">ageism\u003c/a>, experienced engineers like Kovitz who can confidently work with AI may have a better chance of riding tech’s next wave than the news headlines suggest. But to survive the brutal hiring gauntlet, they just might need to invest in help — both human and AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is the market leaning in favor of experience?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Overall, tech jobs are surging. Online employment marketplace ZipRecruiter, which tracks job postings in IT and computer science, reports they were up 16.7% year-over-year nationally in May.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that rosy picture looks different depending on your experience level. The share of senior-level job postings has risen to 43.1%, up from 38.8% a year ago. At the same time, the share of entry-level job postings has fallen slightly, from 8.1% to 7.4%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A key challenge within this job market is a distinct preference for senior or highly-skilled talent over entry-level hires,” ZipRecruiter labor economist Nicole Bachaud wrote to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_10987745\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-10987745 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/06/gettyimages-186125057-e35bb49a8d56f4c7fe56263444f7b0703ecaede7-e1465833964313.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">LinkedIn logos are displayed on laptop computers \u003ccite>(Andrew Harrer/Bloomberg-Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That’s not great news for newly minted college graduates, but it is a hopeful sign for Kovitz and others with decades of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, more than a quarter of employers now ask for AI skills. That’s nearly double the share a year ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This surge is primarily fueled by businesses expanding their AI integrations, products, and services, creating high demand for workers to implement and deploy these new tools,” Bachaud wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fastest-growing roles in software engineering aren’t traditional coding jobs, according to Kory Kantenga, head of economics for the Americas at LinkedIn. They’re positions like “forward-deployed engineer,” a title \u003ca href=\"https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/forward-deployed-engineers\">pioneered\u003c/a> by companies like Palantir to describe engineers who embed directly with clients to install, customize and troubleshoot AI tools on-site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LinkedIn has seen an 18-fold increase in such roles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Those are the roles that we see have a lot of momentum,” Kantenga said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How Ben Did It\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While shy about sharing his exact age, Kovitz will say he’s old enough “to have watched\u003ca href=\"https://www.nasa.gov/history/apollo-16-launches-to-the-moon/\"> moon shots\u003c/a> on television” as a boy in the early 1970s, and to have programmed computers with \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG2M4ttzBnY\">punch cards\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s also old enough to know the Silicon Valley job market is vastly different from the one he learned to navigate at the start of his career. Today, AI defines not only the jobs, but the job search as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Applicants use AI to fire off applications while employers use AI to screen them. The impacts are especially acute in Silicon Valley, where the internet has turned many job openings into a worldwide competition with thousands of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12085049/even-some-tech-workers-cant-afford-to-stay-when-the-bay-is-this-expensive\">well-qualified applicants\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985952\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11985952 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/AP24134775174210-scaled-e1770337042768.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The OpenAI logo is seen on a mobile phone in front of a computer screen displaying output from ChatGPT, March 21, 2023. \u003ccite>(Michael Dwyer/Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I watched a friend struggle for a year after he finished his master’s degree,” he said, “and filling out applications every single day, hours a day. It took him a year to get a job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz decided he needed to pay for professional help to reduce the strength and duration of the struggle ahead of him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Reducing that by a few months and also reducing the sheer pain of it, that is easily worth it,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He signed up with two companies that offer job search support:\u003ca href=\"https://www.applypass.com\"> ApplyPass\u003c/a> and Resume Wizard 101, which has recently rebranded to \u003ca href=\"https://careerlander.com\">Career Lander\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Resume Wizard assigned Kovitz a “reverse recruiter” who sent him new prospects daily, including many that Kovitz might never have considered on his own. The recruiter then filled out about 100 applications a month on his behalf.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>ApplyPass used an AI agent to fire off applications at industrial volume — 400 a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Given the volume of “cold applications” coming at employers, it’s essential job seekers — or agents acting on their behalf — reach out to the relevant person at the company who has some influence over the hiring process, according to Neil Bhatt, Career Lander’s founder and CEO. “The conversion rate (from application to interview) skyrockets when you actually do some sort of networking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz said Resume Wizard 101’s human touch led to a higher rate of employer responses. But ApplyPass isn’t solely automated. The company provided a coach to help navigate “some of the weird things they do in software engineering interviews today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After every interview, Kovitz shared how he responded to certain questions, and the ApplyPass coach suggested alternative approaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We talked about what went right and what went badly,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These services aren’t cheap. ApplyPass’s auto-apply plans range from free to about $199 a month, while Resume Wizard 101’s human-run packages range from roughly $300 for a single résumé revision to $10,000 for full ‘career search management.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12088446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12088446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260619-benkovitz00353_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ben Kovitz poses for a portrait at his place of work at Impulse Labs in San Francisco on June 19, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But senior software engineers in San Francisco earn a median total compensation north of $270,000 a year, according to Glassdoor, so Kovitz figured the math was likely to pencil out for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He was also surprised to find some prospective employers that want proof a software engineer can work with AI. “Go at it with AI,” he was instructed in one memorable interview. “Just throw everything you’ve got at it. Let’s see how you do it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was new to Kovitz, but he dove in with gusto. “I blasted out 2,000 lines of code and solved the problem,” Kovitz said. “But I also saw that the solution wasn’t that great.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz said he thinks getting useful work out of an AI coding agent takes judgment that only comes with experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a senior engineer, Kovitz argued, he was able to look at those 2,000 machine-generated lines of code, recognize their shortcomings, and then know what to do about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of what you do with AI is you work out a plan, a little conversation with the AI, because if you just tell the AI ‘Do this thing,’ with no plan, it is going to make a gigantic mess, and you are going to spend a week debugging it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Effective prompts require understanding the code and what the company wants from it at a granular level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You need to know how all kinds of things can go wrong. Junior programmers don’t have that. They haven’t seen the development of code over a long period of time,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really a game of marketing at the end of the day,” said Bhatt at Career Lander. He said any employer is going to choose the person who can best explain how they use their experience to help this company. “The better job you’re doing at articulating how you can solve their problems, the easier it becomes to land that position.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a survey of 400 engineering leaders in the \u003ca href=\"https://karat.com/engineering-interview-trends-2026/\">U.S., India and China\u003c/a> by Karat, a company that runs technical interviews for hire, 73% said a strong engineer is worth at least three times their total compensation, something they specifically attributed to AI’s impact on productivity. The same survey found that AI is widening the gap between strong and weaker engineers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So where did Ben land?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Kovitz landed a job after a six-month hunt — slightly less than average for the information sector, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat32.htm\">Bureau of Labor Statistics\u003c/a>, which tracks tech workers as part of that larger group. After submitting what he estimates was around 3,000 job applications, Kovitz got a software engineering job at\u003ca href=\"https://www.impulselabs.com/the-difference?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23532288434&gbraid=0AAAAA9ieg0kwGUYoidiYsGrH1-yL_JMGl&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlqTRBhCBARIsANrkrxht1bbHUuOgRW2K2gBHBaZH3ZkB4H3XN_j9DNhIQ9zIVy-CdAhvtWEaAjBKEALw_wcB\"> Impulse Labs\u003c/a>, a San Francisco company that makes \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/impulse-cooktop-review/\">high-end induction stoves\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s happy with the job and turned other offers down to take it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Their engineering culture makes quality paramount even as they move fast,” Kovitz said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also, as a foodie, Kovitz loves sitting with a stovetop next to his desk for hands-on testing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12088888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12088888 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260625-Too-Old-for-a-New-Job-in-Silicon-Valley-01-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An induction stovetop in the kitchen at San Francisco-based Impulse Labs. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Ben Kovitz)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Does he work with AI on the new job?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Yes. Most of the day, every day,” he said, for a wide variety of things that would otherwise take him much longer. They range from finding the relevant parts of a large program to work on, to writing small bits of code in a language he doesn’t know well, to reviewing code for errors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is both amazing when it works well, and amazingly unreliable, so I have to keep a close eye on it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s glad the job hunt is finally in his rearview mirror, but Kovitz is philosophical about the effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“While it was grueling, it was also a great adventure,” he said. “I learned all kinds of stuff about industries that I’d never known anything about before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he applied for a job with a robotaxi company, he taught himself the basics of motion planning, the math behind how a self-driving car navigates. For another set of interviews, he picked up some basics about satellites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kovitz’s facility with math and science, not to mention his natural curiosity and enthusiasm for intellectual challenges, gave him the kind of career flexibility only the most elite coders have enjoyed in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090182\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090182\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260619-benkovitz00441_TV_qed-2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ben Kovitz poses for a portrait at his place of work at Impulse Labs in San Francisco on June 19, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But he also maintained a positive attitude by consciously framing the search as a good thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was an exciting learning experience,” Kovitz said. “It was part of life’s adventure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His advice for others still looking?\u003c/p>\n\u003col>\n\u003cli>Get help if you can afford it.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Treat the search like an eight-hour job and knock off afterward, so the rejection doesn’t grind you down: “You need to protect your morale.”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Don’t go into job interviews with an attitude of desperation. “I’m not there to get the job,” Kovitz said. “I’m there to find out if I want the job.” He added, “It’s wise to be fussy,” and hold out for an employer “that has a culture that you like, where the work is meaningful to you.”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Treat this as a numbers game: “You know, you are probably going to roll the dice 50 or 100, 150 times before you actually get a good [position].”\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, as the saying goes: “There are plenty of perfectly good jobs out there for lots of people.”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ol>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cdiv class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__shortcodes__shortcodeWrapper'>\n \u003ciframe\n src='https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdk3i2DjzVyovGlneUjqudUOXk1699l6Ea-xE4ZgFEi2ApRIQ/viewform?usp=dialog?embedded=true'\n title='https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdk3i2DjzVyovGlneUjqudUOXk1699l6Ea-xE4ZgFEi2ApRIQ/viewform?usp=dialog'\n width='760' height='500'\n frameborder='0'\n marginheight='0' marginwidth='0'>\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ai-frontiers.org/articles/how-ai-could-benefit-the-workers-it-displaces\">How AI Could Benefit Workers, Even If It Displaces Most Jobs\u003c/a> — Benjamin Jones, \u003cem>AI Frontiers\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip of Neil Armstrong on the moon]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>That’s one small step for man, one giant- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or the towers fell on 9/11?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[News bulletin from September 11, 2001]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Where were you when you first used ChatGPT?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If I didn’t like the first draft that was conjured, I could just tell it to try again from a different perspective now. Write it shorter. Write it longer. Write it for a fifth grader. Write it with sports metaphors. I was stunned. It seemed clear we were entering a new era of science communication where all the world’s knowledge was not only available, but personally customizable on demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanted a given study to be relayed in the style of Mr. Darcy flirting with Elizabeth Bennet, you were now suddenly in luck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[AI-generated summary of Pride and Prejudice in style of research article]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. 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And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Will AI actually take over every job ever? Economist Ben Jones doesn't think so. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Will AI actually take over every job ever? \u003ca href=\"https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/academics-research/faculty/jones_benjamin_f/\">Economist Ben Jones\u003c/a> doesn’t think so. Drawing from historical evidence around innovation, Jones argues that automation never conquers \u003cem>everything \u003c/em>— it inevitably creates operational bottlenecks that only humans can solve. By leaning into these bottlenecks, we can protect meaningful, well-paid work. But his optimism comes with a stark caveat: there is one nightmare scenario where this historical pattern breaks down entirely. And it doesn’t involve superintelligence. It involves mediocre AI.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://ai-frontiers.org/articles/how-ai-could-benefit-the-workers-it-displaces\">How AI Could Benefit Workers, Even If It Displaces Most Jobs\u003c/a> — Benjamin Jones, \u003cem>AI Frontiers\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I’m Jess Love. This is Life Automated. For generations of Americans, the question was, where were you when JFK was shot? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Breaking news bulletin announcing the death of John F. Kennedy]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem> Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You’ll excuse the fact that I’m out of breath, but about 10 or 15 minutes ago, a tragic thing from all indications at this point has happened to this city.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio Clip of Neil Armstrong on the moon]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>That’s one small step for man, one giant- \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or the towers fell on 9/11?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[News bulletin from September 11, 2001]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>There’s smoke \u003c/em>\u003cem>billowing out of the World Trade Center.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> These are moments seared into our collective psyche, and now we have a new moment, only this one arrived a bit differently, a browser at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Where were you when you first used ChatGPT?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Life, Automated. I’m Jess Love, and I can tell you exactly where I was. The year was 2022, and I was visiting my in-laws in Florida. It was that lazy week between Christmas and New Year’s that I usually spend in a food coma. I sat on my sister-in-law’s childhood bed and signed up for a free subscription to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I started asking the machine questions, easy ones at first. What did it know about butterflies native to Chicago or the most common tourist attractions in Italy? But it wasn’t too long before I asked what I really wanted to know. Could it do my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>See, much of the work I’ve done over the past decade is in science communication, essentially translating original research written by and for experts into something comprehensible to most people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I asked ChatGPT to summarize some papers I was familiar with, and it did okay. But what it lacked in finesse, and especially in those earlier iterations, accurate citations, it more than made up for in sheer efficiency. In just seconds, it could do work that would take a human the better part of a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If I didn’t like the first draft that was conjured, I could just tell it to try again from a different perspective now. Write it shorter. Write it longer. Write it for a fifth grader. Write it with sports metaphors. I was stunned. It seemed clear we were entering a new era of science communication where all the world’s knowledge was not only available, but personally customizable on demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wanted a given study to be relayed in the style of Mr. Darcy flirting with Elizabeth Bennet, you were now suddenly in luck. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[AI-generated summary of Pride and Prejudice in style of research article]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Darcy’s mouth tightened in a way that suggested the accusation had landed, but he proceeded anyway. My dear Miss Bennet, said Mr. Darcy with an air of careful restraint, I have been reading “AIG in Hindsight.” It is an instructive account of how a firm may appear a paragon of prudence until one… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> The thing I did to make my living that made me special, that made me employable, that I loved to do, was now available to anybody. How could I possibly compete? What did all of my expertise even mean anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the more I thought about ChatGPT, and the more its implications for a lot of other professions became clear, the more I started wondering about all of us. I have a seven-year-old daughter. What opportunities are gonna be available to her? I’m not alone here. The majority of Americans feel pretty anxious about AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s not just jobs. Public polling data suggests Americans are really concerned about how AI will affect education, democracy, our environment, our information ecosystem, and just how we relate to each other. But even as I share all these concerns, I gotta say, over time, a big part of me did start rooting for this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Partly, this is because I now work at a research institute, the Ryan Institute on Complexity. I use AI tools every day, and so do the people around me. I see firsthand how useful they can be. But there’s a bigger reason. I have another daughter, an 11-year-old. She was born with a rare neurological disorder, so rare that it doesn’t actually have a name.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can currently count the number of people in the world with her specific genetic mutation on two fingers. And this genetic difference, it affects how she talks, how she moves, how she uses objects like forks and scissors, how she thinks and learns. My daughter lives in a world that wasn’t made for her, with a brain that science doesn’t really understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, technology that can harness the world’s cumulative knowledge in order to make her life a little easier sounds pretty incredible. AI that can predict which medications might be useful or offer step-by-step directions on how to operate household appliances, and then wait for her to finish each step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of AI Microwave]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>First, press the button above the handle and open the door. Your food will go inside that box when it’s ready. Now close the door. Did it click? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Or AI that can adapt educational materials to her specifically, on demand, maybe in the voice of her favorite Moana character. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>[Audio of Maui from Moana]\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You’re welcome. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Sign me up. So yeah, that’s me. One person, one employee, one parent, reckoning with this technology. But of course, it isn’t just me. There are millions, billions of us wondering what AI and other kinds of automation really mean for our lives and our businesses and our communities, and what we should be doing to prepare. If you are one of these people, I’d like to invite you on a journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because nobody can predict the future, nobody has all the answers about where we’re headed, but there are a lot of people with some answers, and I’ll be speaking with them on Life, Automated, a new podcast from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED. I’ll talk with scientists and philosophers, business leaders and engineers and artists, all with unique insights into the world we’re collectively building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not gonna try to freak you out. I’m not gonna try to sell you anything. I am gonna get nerdy. I’m gonna try to understand, as best I can, where we’re headed. And you’re invited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after I had my initial ChatGPT moment several years ago, I tracked down Ben Jones. He’s an economist and a co-director here at the Ryan Institute where he studies economic development, innovation, entrepreneurship, and the scientific process. And it turns out, Ben has been paying attention to new developments in generative AI for much longer than me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talked three and a half years ago, I was kind of at peak anxiety; but Ben, he’d had a head start. Speaking with him helped me feel better about where we were headed, in part because he gave me a helpful way of thinking about AI. So, I wanted to bring him back for another conversation, this time in a recording studio. I started off by getting him talking about the first moment he realized AI had the potential to bring about big changes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did you have an AI moment, kind of a single moment that sort of shook you to the core and made you think, wow, something about these newest models is really fundamentally different? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I did. I’ve had several AI moments along the way. I think many people, you know, when you see what AI can do, it’s uncanny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes the hair stands up on the back of my neck. But my first AI moment where the hair stood up on the back of my neck was in 2017, and I was in Toronto for a conference that mixed economists and technologists, people from Geoff Hinton’s lab, who would go on to lead many of the top AI groups at the top companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we were shown over dinner, it was a very nice dinner, a video. The video was of an AI learning how to play a first-person shooter game. And as you may know, with first-person shooter games, the experience is if you’re looking through the eyes of the player. So, we’re sort of looking through the eyes of the AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And without any particular directives, except to sort of survive as long as possible, the AI was training itself to play this game better and better. And at first, you’re sitting there looking through the AI’s eyes, and you’re kind of like a drunken sailor. You’re, like, stumbling around, you’re banging into walls, you’re getting trapped in corners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You never pick up health or a weapon. You just don’t last very long. The video showed us the AI’s progression kind of in a fast-forward, high speed over maybe 24 hours. And so around the middle of the training, over, maybe 12 hours, it started running around the maze extremely effectively, but it wasn’t always picking up things on the floor, and it was no longer falling off bridges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the end of the day, it was not only picking everything up and firing the weapons accurately, it was killing every single person in the game, all the real players. It didn’t miss. It didn’t miss in any way. And just watching this progression from this AI algorithm was a really uncanny moment, and to me, opened my mind to how powerful but also potentially worrisome AI is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level it’s not that surprising that a computer can learn to master a computer game. But what makes this story so incredible is just that the computer had no instructions that told us what it was supposed to be doing or what it was supposed to be optimizing other than just, like, live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was able to just learn all of those techniques just via trial and error. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right. Just the certain algorithms for training AI with fairly simple objectives lead to this incredible set of capabilities, which are truly uncanny. Many people have probably had that first moment now with AI, I think a lot with ChatGPT, where you ask it a question and you can’t believe the answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re like, “How could it possibly be coming up with this?” And AI absolutely has that quality. So, for me, it kind of happened a bit earlier, and so I started writing about it a bit earlier than most because I’d had that experience a bit earlier than most. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, which was very convenient for me personally because it meant that, when I was still in my AI freak-out phase, you were somebody who had been doing research on this for years, and were able to kind of be this, calming presence, in order to give me some concrete information about this technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you have kind of an interesting perspective, which is that AI, the current generative AI that we’re talking about with ChatGPT, it’s really just part of a long process of automation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And it’s true that certain technologies for a long time, and AI is one of them, are just hands down amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They do things that are just amazing. But that doesn’t mean that they disemploy everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Phew.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, how can those two things be true? Well, let me just give you another example. You know, obviously computers have been around for a long time now, and their capacity to do sort of certain kinds of calculations are just, more or less infinitely, virtually infinitely better than humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, in my field and in many research fields, you use data and statistical regressions. If I were to run a regression by hand, with a large number of observations, it would take me literally my entire life. And I would make mistakes. You know, my computer can do a regression with a million data points in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we have these technologies that basically are infinitely better than us to do these tasks that are really important to what we do. And then you can ask, okay, well, has our understanding of economics or astronomy or physics multiplied by a similar factor? And you’d say no, because although we can do certain things really, really, really incredibly well, other things are holding us back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have these other tasks, which I would call bottlenecks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and this is the thing that I have thought about so often since our conversation. It kind of blew my mind. So, can you talk to us about what a bottleneck is and why it’s so important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, of course, it’s a metaphor from a bottle, and what do we know about bottles? We know that the speed at which water or wine will flow from the bottle depends on the width of the neck. Doesn’t really depend on how big the bottle is otherwise, how much wine there is in it, how big the base is. It really just depends on the neck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in many processes in the economy and in the economy overall, it looks like there are certain things that have to happen that act as bottlenecks. Let’s say you’re going out to see your cousins for Thanksgiving dinner, and you’ve gotta get everyone in your house into the car, and you’ve gotta pack up the pies that you’re bringing and contributing to the festivities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Well, everyone in the house could have gotten up early, gotten dressed, put on their Thanksgiving sweaters, gotten the pies into the car. But you’re not leaving the house until everyone has their shoes on and their socks. And maybe there’s someone in the family who just is getting real slow about getting their socks and their shoes on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How fast is it that you leave the house? It doesn’t really depend on how fast everyone is. It depends on how slow the slowest person is. That person becomes a bottleneck. Maybe an example we can all relate to. Much of the economy has that flavor, where it’s not how good you are at a lot of things. What’s really sort of determining the rate of the economy is the things we’re quite slow at, the things we’re not very good at.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So basically, it’s this task that is slowing down the speed with which the entire overall goal or objective can be met. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And the reason that’s important is because often in innovation, we get really focused on the shiny thing that’s going really fast, and we’re really excited about how fast it can compute things and these kinds of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But often what really matters is the thing we’re not looking at. It’s the things that we’re quite bad at. The things that we’re really bad at are actually going to slow down the whole system, and if we can’t improve those, the gains from these kind of shiny new objects and new technologies won’t be as great as we hope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I thought about these bottlenecks a lot after our initial conversation. Like, whenever I heard a tech leader say AI was going to be ready to colonize the galaxy in five years, or whenever I started spiraling about whether AI was going to take over every job ever. Now, about that. Overall, Ben, like many economists, is bullish on AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says that automation is generally good for workers. Sure, it causes some job loss and dislocation in the short term. But in the long term, it raises the quality of life for everybody, in part because it lowers the price of things we need and want. But that doesn’t mean people don’t get harmed along the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, one of the fears people have is that these automation technologies take jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And of course, this goes back to the early years of the Industrial Revolution and the Luddites. You know, when you have handcrafts people who are silversmiths and blacksmiths, and you’re making clothes by hand, and then suddenly you have, say, the loom, you’re going to put out of work a lot of hand clothes makers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But they’re going to migrate into other jobs, right? Over the long run, we’re going to see people do many other things, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Think about the real economy. Think about farming. I don’t know if anyone in the audience has ever had a chance to ride around in a combine harvester.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, that’s one of the most incredible pieces of machinery you can imagine. I think a single combine harvester with a bunch of trucks driving up and around it, was able to harvest something like four or five million pounds of corn in twelve hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s insane. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Right? And certainly, agricultural technology is one of those areas where we’ve had massive productivity growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have better seeds and irrigation systems. We have a lot more knowledge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Fertilizer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Fertilizers… All sorts of pesticides, depending how you feel about that. And those together have made for very high productivity, meaning, one hour of labor working with those machines can produce an enormous amount of food.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the end result of that is that instead of having half our workforce in the US, you know, be in agriculture- \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it would have been, like- two hundred years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And that’s what it is in many very low-income countries today, which still struggle to put in place even more basic agricultural technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if fifty percent of the American workforce was in agriculture, now it’s, say, two percent of the American workforce working with an enormous amount of machines. But of course, that’s why many people have gone on to find other careers in other parts of the country. And overall, that process, while it’s not incidental, it can be quite painful. This process of what we call creative destruction, in the long run is what allows us to be far more productive, have higher standards of living.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Coming up, Ben Jones explains why he wants AI to be really good at every job it automates, and why the bigger risk is mediocre AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to point out a very important difference that I think a lot of people are feeling, which is that what is happening with artificial intelligence right now, it’s that the most desirable jobs seem to be the ones that are most at risk. So, I don’t think many people grow up and think, “Boy, I really want to spend all day turning a knob again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But a lot of people really do want to do things like animate, or people want to become journalists. People are accepting giant salary reductions already, to position themselves in these fields. And it seems like those jobs are also at risk. So, there does almost seem to be an emotional difference with the jobs that are being lost right now, that puts kids growing up today in a really hard spot in terms of, follow your dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Well, so, I mean, this is a bit too soon to tell, I think. But, you’re right that if you think of a job as not a task, but a bundle of tasks, that doesn’t mean that you don’t like some of the tasks more than others. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> If you’re a chef, I presume you think about the menu and, and some of the cooking is more fun than washing the dishes, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s exactly right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Maybe I’m wrong. And I don’t think people are the same. So, I think people have different preferences, even in the same job, about different kinds of tasks that they have to do. But to the extent that, you know, AI replaces, it’s just lower cost for how good it is at the tasks that you like, I think that’s not gonna feel so great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, what if it’s really good at creativity and then all you’re doing is editing? But you’d rather do the creative part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> But on the other hand, you know, it’s also the case that when you bring in… Like, let’s go back to regressions. I like to do statistical analysis. I think it’s really interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’m mostly interested in the output. I have no interest in the calculation, and it’s boring. So, this makes me get to the interesting part much faster. And maybe when you’re writing, it’s a collaborator, right? I mean, maybe it’s not a replacement. It’s like another voice on your team.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And suddenly you’re getting a higher quality product, and it could be that you’re making a screenplay or writing an article, you’re writing a song, and suddenly it’s better for your collaboration with the AI, but they’re not actually taking kind of full control. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> That’s the optimistic version here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That at least for a lot of jobs, some tasks will be automated, but other tasks won’t. And those tasks, those bottlenecks, will keep us humans busy and employed and maybe even fulfilled. And looking for these bottlenecks in our own jobs or industries, that is something that feels actionable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Naturally, if there’s some bottleneck tasks that are slowing up the whole system, those are gonna have a lot of value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you can continue to do those or do them relatively well, people will value that. You’ll get a lot of income, you’ll get a sustained job, based on those kinds of tasks. So, the question I think is, are there tasks that are bottleneck tasks that computers can’t do very well yet? That’s really where you should focus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> And in Ben’s view, assuming there will always be some role for humans, we should actually be rooting for AI to get really, really good at whatever it automates. To understand why, we first need to understand two opposing forces. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> So, the first is automation. Automation would be when a machine starts doing a task that we used to do as labor, humans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think this is the force that a lot of people think of. They think about, okay, this machine can do more and more and more work, and so there’s obviously going to be just, like, less and less and less of the income or the share of the economy that’s going to be available to us non-machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. That’s the sort of obvious force that most people get. But there’s another force which is a little bit more subtle, and it has to do with the fact that if machines are taking over tasks, and they are really good at those tasks, right… And at some level they have to be good at those tasks, otherwise they wouldn’t be taking them over from labor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they get very, very good at those tasks, then what happens is those tasks become very cheap, in the sense that whenever you flood a market with something, right? If I made anything abundant, its price will fall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what’s gonna happen if machines are really, really good at those tasks is the kinds of services they produce will become very inexpensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, what we really want if AI is gonna take over a lot of tasks, it’s very important that it not just slightly beat labor at those tasks. We want AI, if it’s gonna take over those tasks, to be really great at it, because then we’re gonna have an abundance of that output, and actually the prices fall and people end up being much better off in a real income sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, I was trying to come up with an example, and instead of it being, quite as theoretical, I was trying to think of something that maybe is already happening in the economy today so that we could sort of play out this idea, this thought experiment, and really understand why even us mere laborers really ought to be working, rooting for AI to get quite good at the tasks of ours that it takes over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I’m gonna read an example to you, and I am hoping that you can respond to it. Give me a sense of whether this is correct, and if so, what it means. If not, where I went wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Imagine that companies start replacing customer service professionals at call centers with AI. This is something that we already know is happening, like when you call your health insurance company to ask about coverage, or you ask your bank why a deposit hasn’t gone through, what have you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The person you talk to gets automated. They’re replaced by AI, and even if the AI isn’t cheap, they still cost a lot less than paying the salaries of fluent English speakers trained in customer service. So, one scenario is the AI is just ‘okay’ at this. It provides worse customer service than humans. People don’t always get their problems resolved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe they get frustrated, maybe they even get angry at the company. But the AI is still good enough that even though the company’s reputation might suffer a bit, the money they’re saving kind of makes it worth it. Maybe they come out a bit ahead. And this is your nightmare scenario as I understand it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, all these call center jobs get eliminated. Nobody really benefits except for the companies that might save a little money every year. Is that a fair depiction of the nightmare scenario?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Yes, because if the companies are only just saving a little bit of money, that’s a sign that the computers aren’t that much better at the task.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get bad services. People lose their jobs. That’s an accurate version of the kind of nightmare scenario one would have in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. Now, if the AI is really, really good at customer service, then eventually most of us do benefit. So, some people do lose their jobs, but they are able to move into others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And meanwhile, the rest of us get our questions answered really quickly, really easily. We have more time in our day to do other things, and hopefully the products and the services from that company become less expensive because the firm is able to pass along those savings. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. And as long as those workers who are displaced are able to find other kinds of jobs in this new economy, everyone’s income will eventually, be going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> So, if I want to go back to this farming example, it’s very easy for me to see that, you know, in the last two hundred years, let’s say, since half of America was a farmer, it’s very easy for me to see that life is a lot better now. You’re gonna live if you are born — you stand a much higher likelihood, you’re just going to enjoy a lot of things that our ancestors would not have been able to. But I think right now, a lot of people are feeling like life in general is not getting better. They’re kind of feeling like, the chances that my kid is going to have a better life than me are not that great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, houses are getting more expensive. It’s more expensive to go to college. Like, I think a lot of people are feeling like they are just treading water. And so how does that square with this idea of incremental progress? Is it just that we are imagining the past to be better than it was? Or is it that maybe some of the things that are real pain points are because of these bottlenecks or something else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> I would say that’s more to do with inequality, and where the benefits have been felt in this economy. And this goes way before artificial intelligence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Going back to the ’70s for quite a long time, the median real household income was kind of stagnating in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, we had a lot of growth, but as I think people know, a lot of that increased value added in the economy every year has been captured by people who are pretty well off already. One of the concerns with AI, as we see, these billionaires, trillionaires starting to emerge, is that too much of the added value will be captured by those who own the companies or own the capital. So, I think that’s a real question. The other kind of inequality, which is actually the major kind of inequality that’s been at work in the United States, is within labor. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And what we’ve seen over time since the ’70s is a spreading where people who are in the upper educated professional classes have been capturing a lot of the growth, in income per capita\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>for themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Oh, interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones: \u003c/strong>Whereas the median household has been struggling. Compared to history, we’ve seen relatively slow growth in real standards of living among the median household. I think when you think about why, Americans maybe not necessarily fully seeing these facts, but feeling them right? Feeling that maybe they put it on globalization, but that’s maybe not the right… But there’s some globalization, there’s a lot of automation, there’s a lot of technological change within the country. But feeling that somehow, these advances or this participation in the world economy, doesn’t seem like it’s making their lives better. And I think for many people, at least going back to the ’70s, there’s some truth in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> In Ben’s view, much of the pessimism Americans feel about technological progress comes not from the technology itself but from how its gains have been distributed. But he thinks that at least some of this inequality, not the kind driven by tech billionaires, but the inequality within workers might actually decrease as AI automates white collar work. And to be very blunt, he does not share the average American’s concerns about AI making human labor obsolete.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I mean, a stat I ran across earlier this year, just 6% of Americans say workplace AI use will lead to more jobs in the long run, and you would just wholeheartedly disagree with that and say that, this might just be kind of a failure of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Correct. I mean, you wouldn’t have imagined there was an ATM technician or a satellite engineer or a pilot before those things were created. And, I think it’s very hard to predict what’s gonna become easier, what’s gonna become hard, and that’s for the future to tell us. It’s gonna be unexpected and pretty interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s nothing so far in history that would suggest that suddenly all labor could be replaced. And even if it were, I mean, just to be clear, I mean, if it were, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, let’s go there! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> Then the amount of output would be enormous, right? So, if you actually replaced all human labor and you had these efficient machines that could do everything, the amount of consumption you could have would be incredibly high. It would at that point become entirely an issue of equity and access to that income. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And, you know, that’s where governments can step in, right? And we can have redistributive policies. I mean, do you wanna just let a few capitalists own everything? I doubt that is a political equilibrium- with everyone starving and, like, three people are, you know, quadrillionaires. Maybe, this gets into dystopian scenarios —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yes, it does\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Jones:\u003c/strong> And it gets into various other things. And I’m not saying that’s not possible. We certainly see authoritarian behavior around the world that is problematic. It’s ultimately a question of our political process and the representation of voices who are being left out, or doing much worse because of technological change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if you’re making the pie much bigger through this kind of churn and technological advance, there’s more resources around. You should be able to compensate those who lost in some way and not have them live a life that is much harder for virtue of having been replaced by machines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think, you know, in the United States, you have to be careful in both directions. Technological progress is inevitably about creative destruction, right? I mean, think of what Amazon has done, right? E-tail destroyed bricks-and-mortar bookstores first and a whole lot of other kinds of bricks and mortar, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is more efficient for a lot of people. Consumers like it. They get things delivered. It’s cheaper. You know, they get things faster. But if you owned a bookstore, it was terrible, right? And, so, how do we think about that as a society? Well, on one hand, if we let the people who are already kind of in charge resist creative destruction, then we don’t grow and we don’t advance, and then those people are kind of holding us back, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the other hand, if you just let creative destruction go with no kind of willy-nilly, with no compensation, which is pretty close to the American model, right? You got a lotta progress. You got a lotta churn. You get a lotta technological advance, but you’re gonna displace a lotta people. And so, at that point, you definitely need a very, at minimum, a very flexible labor market which allows people to reallocate into other jobs, and there are ways to have policy to facilitate that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Retraining, et cetera. But that’s not to sugarcoat anything here. I mean, if you’re in a rural area and the main employer goes down, reallocating to a new job probably means reallocating to a new place, leaving your family, leaving the region you know and all the culture that goes with that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s an extraordinarily painful experience. And whether that’s because of technological change or trade, you know, I think it’s on all of us and as citizens in a country to take that extremely seriously.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> I think this question of how we as a society deploy and adapt to automation is one of the most important questions today. But before we can adapt, we need to understand. That’s what this show is trying to do, help more people, including me, make sense of things. So we have a lot more great conversations coming up with economists, scientists, experts in design and media, people whose work can help us understand this moment and maybe even peek into the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. Life, Automated is a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. We’re distributed by KQED. Our show is produced by Jesse Dukes with help from Nathan Ray and Steven Jackson. Music by Steven Jackson, Q Shop, and Neutral Propulsion Laboratory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recording help from Will Feeney and George Christensen. Administrative support, recording, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "remember-your-moms-tanda-young-latinos-are-giving-it-a-tech-savvy-twist-2",
"title": "Remember Your Mom’s ‘Tanda’? Young Latinos Are Giving It a Tech-Savvy Twist",
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"headTitle": "Remember Your Mom’s ‘Tanda’? Young Latinos Are Giving It a Tech-Savvy Twist | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>How We Get By\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the span of four months, Juan Carrillo’s life got flipped around. He lost two family members in January: a brother and a nephew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On top of his grief, the 49-year-old Fresno resident and his family were staring down funeral bills, each costing more than $10,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everything has done a complete 360-degree turn; you just don’t see it coming, and you don’t even know where else to find the money to make your regular payments,” Carrillo said in Spanish. “In one way or another, we had to help our families.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of the unexpected expenses, he fell behind on rent and utility payments, even though he was working three jobs — as a DJ, an Uber driver and as a construction worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Carrillo got a boon at just the right time: in January, he received $900 in his bank account, which helped his family cover some of the funeral expenses. That was thanks to his tanda, a community-based lending circle, in which members contribute small amounts of money regularly — in his case, $150 each month — and take turns receiving a lump-sum payout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s how we help each other,” Carrillo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo stands for a portrait at his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to contribute to funeral expenses for two of his family members because of it. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A tanda is a centuries-old financial system widely used across Latin America that functions as a community-based savings-and-lending circle. The system relies on trust among its members — usually small groups of six to 10 — and has historically operated in cash, similar to an interest-free savings plan or an informal loan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, however, tandas are becoming more modernized, with apps and other tech tools drawing in younger generations of Latinos. And as California’s cost of living continues to increase, more people are turning to tandas as a way to get out of a tight spot, to save money and build credit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is very expensive to live in these areas,” said Mariel Hernandez, a spokesperson for Bay Area nonprofit \u003ca href=\"https://www.missionassetfund.org/\">Mission Asset Fund\u003c/a>. “California’s affordability crisis has made predatory lending more dangerous and more tempting at the same time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her organization partnered with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfus.org/\">Education and Leadership Foundation\u003c/a>, based in Fresno, more than three years ago to expand access to these traditional lending circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090555\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090555\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo displays his delivery driver badge in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Both nonprofits use the model as a way to help communities build savings and access small, no-interest loans through structured, community-based programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Raúl Hinojosa-Ojeda, a professor of Chicano studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the origins of tandas go back centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not new,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “There’s multi-thousand-year-old roots of communal labor in Mexico, there’s 1,000-year-old roots in Asia of communal work and communal savings and lending.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hinojosa-Ojeda said tandas made their way to California in the 19th century, when immigrants from China and Mexico brought the collective savings practices to the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090556\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090556\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A new tire on delivery driver Juan Carrillo’s car in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Traditionally, participants knew each other; they were family members, neighbors, friends, and coworkers. Trust is essential within the tanda because a person is less likely to take the money and never return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the systems operated by the Education and Leadership Foundation and Mission Asset Fund, participants are strangers, and they no longer operate with cash. Instead, they use an app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the organizations are able to guarantee funding if a person drops out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The concept is very similar,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “People join, and then they agree to deposit money into a fund that’s controlled by a trusted body.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090546\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090546\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas shows the “MyMAF” portal on her phone at the Education and Leadership Foundation office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. MyMAF is a model by Mission Asset Fund that helps community members build their savings, credit, and access small loans. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hernandez said community members turn to tandas for any number of reasons, including household emergencies or securing a down payment for a home or for rent. She uses tandas herself and said she’s received $1,200 that helped cover the tuition costs of her master’s degree, as well as her Bay Area apartment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be for buying back-to-school supplies, sending money to family abroad, sometimes it’s even covering quinceañeras,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When 24-year-old David Medina was feeling the pressure of the holiday season late last year, he realized he didn’t have enough money to buy gifts for his family.[aside postID=news_12084761 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/IMG_1522.jpg']“And then I remembered, ‘Wait, I’m about to get my money from the tanda.’ That money can go straight into my Christmas shopping,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had been paying $100 a month and received $1,000 just before the holidays. The timing helped turn a stressful situation into a manageable one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That money that I didn’t know I had put aside, I had it, and it worked perfectly,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With the extra cash, Medina was able to buy gifts: toys, new clothes, household items, and food. It helped his family enjoy a more comfortable Christmas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carmen Cardenas, the community engagement coordinator for Education and Leadership Foundation, joined a tanda to celebrate her 24th birthday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I received the loan, I wasn’t wanting to go into credit card debt for my birthday celebration, so I saved the money that I got from the lending circle to put it towards that,” Cardenas said. “I was able to use that money and then keep paying it back as the lending circle went on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She makes it a priority to participate in tandas whenever the opportunity arises, viewing them as an important way to manage her finances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090547\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090547\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas stands for a portrait at the Education and Leadership Foundation (ELF) office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Cardenas assists ELF community members with signing up for tandas, also known as lending circles, and has made use of them for her own expenses. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Through the Mission Asset Fund app — which is now available through partnerships in Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New York and Washington — Cardenas is instantly alerted whenever a scheduled payment is processed, allowing her to track when money has been automatically withdrawn from her bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Medina has grown to love tandas — not just because he can save money along the way, but also because he’s actively building and strengthening his credit score through the Mission Asset Fund’s app, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After college, I didn’t really build my credit,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After receiving his last payout, he signed up for another tanda and is set to collect $750 later this year — again with the ability to track and access his payments instantly from his devices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090548\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090548\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo prays at an altar honoring his brother and nephew in his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo was able to contribute to funeral expenses for his brother and nephew after joining a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The ability to build credit scores also interested Carrillo, not for himself, but for his 18- and 20-year-old sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In this country, you move forward with credit; without credit, you don’t,” Carrillo said. “Everything relies on credit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’d be tempting to lean on credit to keep up with California’s rising costs, but Carrillo said the tandas have helped him manage it. And, when tragedy struck, the tanda was there with quick cash and zero debt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thank God because it arrived at a time [of need],” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Remember Your Mom’s ‘Tanda’? Young Latinos Are Giving It a Tech-Savvy Twist | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>How We Get By\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a KQED series exploring how people are coping with rising costs in the Bay Area and California. Find the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/affordability\">\u003cem>full series here\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the span of four months, Juan Carrillo’s life got flipped around. He lost two family members in January: a brother and a nephew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On top of his grief, the 49-year-old Fresno resident and his family were staring down funeral bills, each costing more than $10,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Everything has done a complete 360-degree turn; you just don’t see it coming, and you don’t even know where else to find the money to make your regular payments,” Carrillo said in Spanish. “In one way or another, we had to help our families.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a result of the unexpected expenses, he fell behind on rent and utility payments, even though he was working three jobs — as a DJ, an Uber driver and as a construction worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Carrillo got a boon at just the right time: in January, he received $900 in his bank account, which helped his family cover some of the funeral expenses. That was thanks to his tanda, a community-based lending circle, in which members contribute small amounts of money regularly — in his case, $150 each month — and take turns receiving a lump-sum payout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s how we help each other,” Carrillo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-08_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo stands for a portrait at his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to contribute to funeral expenses for two of his family members because of it. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A tanda is a centuries-old financial system widely used across Latin America that functions as a community-based savings-and-lending circle. The system relies on trust among its members — usually small groups of six to 10 — and has historically operated in cash, similar to an interest-free savings plan or an informal loan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, however, tandas are becoming more modernized, with apps and other tech tools drawing in younger generations of Latinos. And as California’s cost of living continues to increase, more people are turning to tandas as a way to get out of a tight spot, to save money and build credit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is very expensive to live in these areas,” said Mariel Hernandez, a spokesperson for Bay Area nonprofit \u003ca href=\"https://www.missionassetfund.org/\">Mission Asset Fund\u003c/a>. “California’s affordability crisis has made predatory lending more dangerous and more tempting at the same time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her organization partnered with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.elfus.org/\">Education and Leadership Foundation\u003c/a>, based in Fresno, more than three years ago to expand access to these traditional lending circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090555\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090555\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-11_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo displays his delivery driver badge in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Both nonprofits use the model as a way to help communities build savings and access small, no-interest loans through structured, community-based programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Raúl Hinojosa-Ojeda, a professor of Chicano studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the origins of tandas go back centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not new,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “There’s multi-thousand-year-old roots of communal labor in Mexico, there’s 1,000-year-old roots in Asia of communal work and communal savings and lending.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hinojosa-Ojeda said tandas made their way to California in the 19th century, when immigrants from China and Mexico brought the collective savings practices to the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090556\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090556\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-15_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A new tire on delivery driver Juan Carrillo’s car in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo joined a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America, and was able to buy new tires for his car with a loan from the tanda. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Traditionally, participants knew each other; they were family members, neighbors, friends, and coworkers. Trust is essential within the tanda because a person is less likely to take the money and never return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the systems operated by the Education and Leadership Foundation and Mission Asset Fund, participants are strangers, and they no longer operate with cash. Instead, they use an app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the organizations are able to guarantee funding if a person drops out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The concept is very similar,” Hinojosa-Ojeda said. “People join, and then they agree to deposit money into a fund that’s controlled by a trusted body.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090546\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090546\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-03_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas shows the “MyMAF” portal on her phone at the Education and Leadership Foundation office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. MyMAF is a model by Mission Asset Fund that helps community members build their savings, credit, and access small loans. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Hernandez said community members turn to tandas for any number of reasons, including household emergencies or securing a down payment for a home or for rent. She uses tandas herself and said she’s received $1,200 that helped cover the tuition costs of her master’s degree, as well as her Bay Area apartment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be for buying back-to-school supplies, sending money to family abroad, sometimes it’s even covering quinceañeras,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When 24-year-old David Medina was feeling the pressure of the holiday season late last year, he realized he didn’t have enough money to buy gifts for his family.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“And then I remembered, ‘Wait, I’m about to get my money from the tanda.’ That money can go straight into my Christmas shopping,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He had been paying $100 a month and received $1,000 just before the holidays. The timing helped turn a stressful situation into a manageable one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That money that I didn’t know I had put aside, I had it, and it worked perfectly,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With the extra cash, Medina was able to buy gifts: toys, new clothes, household items, and food. It helped his family enjoy a more comfortable Christmas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carmen Cardenas, the community engagement coordinator for Education and Leadership Foundation, joined a tanda to celebrate her 24th birthday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I received the loan, I wasn’t wanting to go into credit card debt for my birthday celebration, so I saved the money that I got from the lending circle to put it towards that,” Cardenas said. “I was able to use that money and then keep paying it back as the lending circle went on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She makes it a priority to participate in tandas whenever the opportunity arises, viewing them as an important way to manage her finances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090547\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090547\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-07_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Community Engagement Coordinator Carmen Cardenas stands for a portrait at the Education and Leadership Foundation (ELF) office in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Cardenas assists ELF community members with signing up for tandas, also known as lending circles, and has made use of them for her own expenses. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Through the Mission Asset Fund app — which is now available through partnerships in Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New York and Washington — Cardenas is instantly alerted whenever a scheduled payment is processed, allowing her to track when money has been automatically withdrawn from her bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, Medina has grown to love tandas — not just because he can save money along the way, but also because he’s actively building and strengthening his credit score through the Mission Asset Fund’s app, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After college, I didn’t really build my credit,” Medina said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After receiving his last payout, he signed up for another tanda and is set to collect $750 later this year — again with the ability to track and access his payments instantly from his devices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12090548\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12090548\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/20260706-tandas-JY-19_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Juan Carrillo prays at an altar honoring his brother and nephew in his home in Fresno, California, on Monday, July 6, 2026. Carrillo was able to contribute to funeral expenses for his brother and nephew after joining a tanda, a lending circle widely used in Latin America. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The ability to build credit scores also interested Carrillo, not for himself, but for his 18- and 20-year-old sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In this country, you move forward with credit; without credit, you don’t,” Carrillo said. “Everything relies on credit.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’d be tempting to lean on credit to keep up with California’s rising costs, but Carrillo said the tandas have helped him manage it. And, when tragedy struck, the tanda was there with quick cash and zero debt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thank God because it arrived at a time [of need],” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers",
"title": "'Get The Flock Out': The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up",
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"headTitle": "‘Get The Flock Out’: The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates worried about a creeping surveillance state and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks to Bay Area reporters Roselyn Romero and Riley Cooke about the fight over Flock spreading throughout the region, what we still don’t know about how Flock’s data is used and how some residents are finding creative ways to push back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560783367\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/author/roselyn-romero/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roselyn Romero\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, public safety journalist at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oaklandside \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltoonline.com/author/rcookeembarcaderopublishing-com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Palo Alto Weekly \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB0gr7Fh6lY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Benn Jordan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://sanjosespotlight.com/palo-alto-license-plate-data-searched-by-hundreds-of-out-of-state-agencies/\">Palo Alto license plate data searched by hundreds of out-of-state agencies\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Riley Cooke, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Palo Alto Weekly\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/05/28/flock-training-police-city-councils-webinar/\">Flock is quietly training Bay Area police to sway city leaders to buy surveillance tech\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Roselyn Romero, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Oaklandside \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/flock-exposed-its-ai-powered-cameras-to-the-internet-we-tracked-ourselves/\">Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jason Koebler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://knock-la.com/does-flock-safety-keep-women-safe/\">Does Flock Safety Keep Women Safe?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jayme Kusyk, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Knock LA\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/\">Police Have Reportedly Used License Plate Readers to Stalk Romantic Interests at Least 21 Times in Recent Years \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> —\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Christopher Ingraham, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Institute for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2026/05/21/home-depot-lowes-downplay-customer-surveillance-threats-flock-cameras-immigration/\">Home Depot and Lowe’s Downplay Customer Surveillance Threats\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Whitney Curry Wimbish, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The American Prospect\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whro.org/business-growth/2026-01-20/flock-cameras-in-hampton-roads-surveil-black-communities-more-intensely-than-white-ones-cnu-study-says\">Flock cameras in Hampton Roads surveil Black communities more intensely than white ones, CNU study says\u003c/a> — Toby Cox, \u003ci>WHRO\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/ice-taps-into-nationwide-ai-enabled-camera-network-data-shows/\">ICE Taps into Nationwide AI-Enabled Camera Network, Data Shows\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler & Joseph Cox, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/04/24/who-is-paint-bombing-oaklands-flock-cameras/\">Who is paint bombing Oakland’s Flock cameras?\u003c/a> — Eli Wolfe, \u003ci>The Oaklandside\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/across-the-us-people-are-dismantling\">Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras\u003c/a> — Brian Merchant, \u003ci>Blood In The Machine\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-car-break-in-data-18639763.php\">Has S.F. cracked how to fix the car break-in crisis? Here’s what is driving the decline\u003c/a> — Rachel Swan, \u003ci>San Francisco Chronicle \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE. They do what they want. So don’t believe anybody who says this information is private and secure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building. It was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, thanks to one agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would allow the controversial surveillance tech company to continue running its network of AI-powered license plate readers throughout the county — including unincorporated areas outside of cities like Oakland and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The contract expired last summer. If approved, the extension would buy another three months of Flock surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The room was packed with residents, from Oakland to Castro Valley. Even more attended virtually to give comments. More than a hundred residents spoke during the meeting. Close All Tabs producer, Maya Cueva, was on the scene. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network that will track every single one of us, making a searchable database that tracks our movements. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country — not just in the Bay Area. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of the right to privacy, and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for. Alameda County residents of all ages have been fighting against Flock in their neighborhoods for a while. And some aren’t even able to vote yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name’s Narayan. I’m 17. I go by he/him pronouns, and I’m from East Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylyn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, my names Kaylyn. I’m 17 years old, and I live in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tyson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Tyson, I’m 18, he/him pronouns, and I live in Albany. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to stop the implementation and extending of a Flock contract in my county. Flock is a multi-billion dollar corporation that is focused on hyper surveillance of people, and we’ve already seen that it is in the wrong hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years ago, Alameda County leaders approved a contract to install 100 plate readers throughout the county. Berkeley has just over 30, and Oakland recently approved a $2 million contract for nearly 300 more cameras in the city. Other residents have been speaking out about the issue for years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been fighting Flock since 2023, but now it’s a lot more in the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of people have become a lot aware of the surveillance systems that are being used to surveil them, to watch and kidnap their community members. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ramesh Sridharan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t want mass surveillance. We should be investing in communities. We should be spending our money on that as opposed to programs like Flock, which contribute to a surveillance state and have no evidence of actually reducing crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some residents spoke in support of extending Flock’s contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert Battinich: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was raised in San Leandro for 25 years. I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The board of supervisors kept calling for decorum when attendees clapped for anti-Flock speakers. So one resident used his allotted time to scold the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ralph Brown: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it seems like a majority of you are just ready to reject the overwhelming majority of your residents who are telling you to vote “no” on this contract, not spend $300,000 plus more dollars to extend this contract and basically just say- tell us to go fuck ourselves, is what I’m hearing from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meeting lasted hours — and after all that, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash we’re seeing against Flock in Alameda County is part of a bigger nationwide fight against normalizing mass surveillance. Flock vandalism is up across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @wwmtnews on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kalamazoo County Sheriff’s Office says someone intentionally cut down a Flock license plate reader camera along D Avenue in Cooper Township. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @WHAS11News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Auburn normally has 12 in the city, now they’re down two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @tmj4 on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take a close look at this automatic license plate reading camera, and you’ll notice gold paint covering the lens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People have put stickers over the cameras’ lenses, covered them with trash bags, paintbombed entire devices, and joked online about pointing lasers at the cameras to destroy the sensors. In Oregon, someone cut down six poles holding Flock cameras, leaving a note that said, quote, “Hahaha get wrecked you surveilling fucks.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @KEZI9News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No arrests have been made in either jurisdiction, but this is considered criminal mischief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s local news station KEZI 9, which actually broadcasted the uncensored note. But aside from resorting to “criminal mischief,” how else are people fighting the installation of these cameras in their neighborhoods? Today, we’re digging into the heated debate around Flock cameras: what exactly they’re doing with your data and why this might matter more than you think. Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly. Let’s open a new tab: Why is Flock so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city took action around 2024. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay. After the break, Flock’s data breach. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab: The Palo Alto Flock scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[bangs gavel] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for today’s deep dive. But, as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs about Flock Safety and all of its controversies, check out our show notes. We have some further reading there. But for now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced and field-reported by Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience and engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and materon Milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode includes clips from WWMT News, WHAS-11, TMJ4 News, KEZI 9, Benn Jordan, and Forbes. Special thanks to Rosalyn Romero and Riley Cooke, and everyone we spoke to at the Alameda County Board of Supervisors meeting. Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past couple of months, it’s mostly been organized demonstrations, and there’s been a sign that’s been going around that says, “GTFO: Get the Flock Out,” which I think is pretty funny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "'Get The Flock Out': The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up | KQED",
"description": "Flock Safety’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates worried about a creeping surveillance state and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for. Morgan talks to Bay Area reporters Roselyn Romero and Riley Cooke about the fight over Flock spreading throughout the region, what we still don’t know about how Flock’s data is used and how some residents are finding creative ways to push back.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates worried about a creeping surveillance state and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan talks to Bay Area reporters Roselyn Romero and Riley Cooke about the fight over Flock spreading throughout the region, what we still don’t know about how Flock’s data is used and how some residents are finding creative ways to push back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6560783367\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/author/roselyn-romero/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roselyn Romero\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, public safety journalist at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oaklandside \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.paloaltoonline.com/author/rcookeembarcaderopublishing-com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Palo Alto Weekly \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB0gr7Fh6lY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Benn Jordan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Youtube \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://sanjosespotlight.com/palo-alto-license-plate-data-searched-by-hundreds-of-out-of-state-agencies/\">Palo Alto license plate data searched by hundreds of out-of-state agencies\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Riley Cooke, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>Palo Alto Weekly\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/05/28/flock-training-police-city-councils-webinar/\">Flock is quietly training Bay Area police to sway city leaders to buy surveillance tech\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Roselyn Romero, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>The Oaklandside \u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/flock-exposed-its-ai-powered-cameras-to-the-internet-we-tracked-ourselves/\">Flock Exposed Its AI-Powered Cameras to the Internet. We Tracked Ourselves\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jason Koebler, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://knock-la.com/does-flock-safety-keep-women-safe/\">Does Flock Safety Keep Women Safe?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Jayme Kusyk, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Knock LA\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/\">Police Have Reportedly Used License Plate Readers to Stalk Romantic Interests at Least 21 Times in Recent Years \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci> —\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Christopher Ingraham, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Institute for Justice\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2026/05/21/home-depot-lowes-downplay-customer-surveillance-threats-flock-cameras-immigration/\">Home Depot and Lowe’s Downplay Customer Surveillance Threats\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Whitney Curry Wimbish, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The American Prospect\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whro.org/business-growth/2026-01-20/flock-cameras-in-hampton-roads-surveil-black-communities-more-intensely-than-white-ones-cnu-study-says\">Flock cameras in Hampton Roads surveil Black communities more intensely than white ones, CNU study says\u003c/a> — Toby Cox, \u003ci>WHRO\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/ice-taps-into-nationwide-ai-enabled-camera-network-data-shows/\">ICE Taps into Nationwide AI-Enabled Camera Network, Data Shows\u003c/a> — Jason Koebler & Joseph Cox, \u003ci>404 Media\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/04/24/who-is-paint-bombing-oaklands-flock-cameras/\">Who is paint bombing Oakland’s Flock cameras?\u003c/a> — Eli Wolfe, \u003ci>The Oaklandside\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/across-the-us-people-are-dismantling\">Across the US, people are dismantling and destroying Flock surveillance cameras\u003c/a> — Brian Merchant, \u003ci>Blood In The Machine\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-car-break-in-data-18639763.php\">Has S.F. cracked how to fix the car break-in crisis? Here’s what is driving the decline\u003c/a> — Rachel Swan, \u003ci>San Francisco Chronicle \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE. They do what they want. So don’t believe anybody who says this information is private and secure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building. It was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, thanks to one agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This would allow the controversial surveillance tech company to continue running its network of AI-powered license plate readers throughout the county — including unincorporated areas outside of cities like Oakland and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The contract expired last summer. If approved, the extension would buy another three months of Flock surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The room was packed with residents, from Oakland to Castro Valley. Even more attended virtually to give comments. More than a hundred residents spoke during the meeting. Close All Tabs producer, Maya Cueva, was on the scene. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network that will track every single one of us, making a searchable database that tracks our movements. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s license plate readers have become a flashpoint for a debate across the country — not just in the Bay Area. On one side: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of the right to privacy, and the myriad security issues Flock has already been exposed for. Alameda County residents of all ages have been fighting against Flock in their neighborhoods for a while. And some aren’t even able to vote yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name’s Narayan. I’m 17. I go by he/him pronouns, and I’m from East Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylyn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, my names Kaylyn. I’m 17 years old, and I live in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tyson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Tyson, I’m 18, he/him pronouns, and I live in Albany. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Narayan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to stop the implementation and extending of a Flock contract in my county. Flock is a multi-billion dollar corporation that is focused on hyper surveillance of people, and we’ve already seen that it is in the wrong hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years ago, Alameda County leaders approved a contract to install 100 plate readers throughout the county. Berkeley has just over 30, and Oakland recently approved a $2 million contract for nearly 300 more cameras in the city. Other residents have been speaking out about the issue for years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been fighting Flock since 2023, but now it’s a lot more in the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of people have become a lot aware of the surveillance systems that are being used to surveil them, to watch and kidnap their community members. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ramesh Sridharan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t want mass surveillance. We should be investing in communities. We should be spending our money on that as opposed to programs like Flock, which contribute to a surveillance state and have no evidence of actually reducing crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some residents spoke in support of extending Flock’s contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert Battinich: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was raised in San Leandro for 25 years. I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The board of supervisors kept calling for decorum when attendees clapped for anti-Flock speakers. So one resident used his allotted time to scold the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ralph Brown: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it seems like a majority of you are just ready to reject the overwhelming majority of your residents who are telling you to vote “no” on this contract, not spend $300,000 plus more dollars to extend this contract and basically just say- tell us to go fuck ourselves, is what I’m hearing from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The meeting lasted hours — and after all that, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The backlash we’re seeing against Flock in Alameda County is part of a bigger nationwide fight against normalizing mass surveillance. Flock vandalism is up across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @wwmtnews on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kalamazoo County Sheriff’s Office says someone intentionally cut down a Flock license plate reader camera along D Avenue in Cooper Township. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @WHAS11News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Auburn normally has 12 in the city, now they’re down two. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @tmj4 on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Take a close look at this automatic license plate reading camera, and you’ll notice gold paint covering the lens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People have put stickers over the cameras’ lenses, covered them with trash bags, paintbombed entire devices, and joked online about pointing lasers at the cameras to destroy the sensors. In Oregon, someone cut down six poles holding Flock cameras, leaving a note that said, quote, “Hahaha get wrecked you surveilling fucks.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @KEZI9News on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No arrests have been made in either jurisdiction, but this is considered criminal mischief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s local news station KEZI 9, which actually broadcasted the uncensored note. But aside from resorting to “criminal mischief,” how else are people fighting the installation of these cameras in their neighborhoods? Today, we’re digging into the heated debate around Flock cameras: what exactly they’re doing with your data and why this might matter more than you think. Ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly. Let’s open a new tab: Why is Flock so controversial? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city took action around 2024. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you to keep us going. You can support us by becoming a member at donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Okay. After the break, Flock’s data breach. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab: The Palo Alto Flock scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[bangs gavel] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s it for today’s deep dive. But, as usual, stick around after the credits for bonus content. And if you’re dying to open more tabs about Flock Safety and all of its controversies, check out our show notes. We have some further reading there. But for now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and it’s reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced and field-reported by Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Close All Tabs team also includes editor Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience and engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our Director of Podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and materon Milky yellow pro v2 switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode includes clips from WWMT News, WHAS-11, TMJ4 News, KEZI 9, Benn Jordan, and Forbes. Special thanks to Rosalyn Romero and Riley Cooke, and everyone we spoke to at the Alameda County Board of Supervisors meeting. Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Riley Cooke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past couple of months, it’s mostly been organized demonstrations, and there’s been a sign that’s been going around that says, “GTFO: Get the Flock Out,” which I think is pretty funny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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}
},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
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"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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},
"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
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"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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