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"slug": "tesla-dodges-class-action-case-now-faces-hundreds-of-individual-race-harassment-claims",
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"content": "\u003cp>A California state judge has ruled that more than 14,000 Black workers who alleged racial harassment at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/tesla\">Tesla\u003c/a>’s flagship assembly plant in Fremont cannot sue as a class, meaning the company is likely to face a flood of individual lawsuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Superior Court Judge Peter Borkon’s Friday\u003ca href=\"https://tmsnrt.rs/3XzzhNU\"> ruling,\u003c/a> the 2017 lawsuit cannot move forward as a class action because lawyers for the plaintiffs were unable to find 200 randomly sampled class members willing to forgo a few days of wages to testify ahead of a trial scheduled for 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Borkon said he did not trust that the jury would be able to “reliably extrapolate from the experiences of the trial witnesses to the 14,000 members of the class as a whole.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“An infinitesimal number of the workers have testified,” Stanford Law School professor emeritus William Gould IV, a former National Labor Relations Board chairman, told KQED. Tesla “has superior resources, and plaintiffs need the class action to really get the defendant’s attention.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The named plaintiff, former assembly line worker Marcus Vaughn, alleged that Black workers at the Fremont facility were subjected to a range of racist conduct, including slurs, graffiti and nooses hung at their workstations. Vaughn said that line workers and supervisors alike referred to him using a slur on a regular basis and that Tesla did not investigate after he complained in writing to the human resources department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, Vaughn said, Tesla fired him for “not having a positive attitude” six months after he started the job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11992305\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11992305\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1265\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-800x527.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-1020x672.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-160x105.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-1536x1012.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A row of new Tesla Superchargers seen outside of the Tesla Factory on Aug. 16, 2013, in Fremont, California. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The ruling is a meaningful legal victory for Tesla, but the company still faces multiple lawsuits alleging pervasive race discrimination and other forms of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101854776/foreign-workers-at-tesla-spotlight-a-visa-system-vulnerable-to-fraud\">worker mistreatment\u003c/a> at its \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11662641/tesla-says-its-factory-is-safer-but-it-left-injuries-off-the-books\">Fremont factory\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which enforces federal anti-discrimination laws, has also brought \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/legal/tesla-appears-unlikely-nix-us-suit-alleging-bias-against-black-workers-2024-03-28/\">race discrimination claims\u003c/a> against Tesla in federal court in California, and state regulators at the California Department of Fair Employment & Housing \u003ca href=\"https://omny.fm/shows/kqed-segmented-audio/tesla-sued-over-disturbing-reports-of-workplace-ra\">are suing\u003c/a> in Alameda County Superior Court. The company has\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-settles-black-employees-lawsuit-alleging-pervasive-harassment-2025-04-17/\"> settled other race discrimination lawsuits\u003c/a> involving individual plaintiffs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the wake of the class-action denial, plaintiffs’ lawyers said they intend to press on with a host of individual lawsuits. They’ve already filed more than 500 and plan to eventually file more than 900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Tesla has jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire with this decertification, because they are now facing hundreds of victims of race harassment seeking damages in their own suits,” wrote the plaintiffs’ co-lead counsel Bryan J. Schwartz.[aside postID=news_12063980 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/231005-TRUCK-GETTY-KQED-1020x680.jpg']Tesla and its attorneys did not respond to requests for comment on Monday, but the board has stated to investors that the company remains “committed to creating and maintaining a respectful and inclusive workplace, and the steps we have taken to prevent and address harassment and discrimination throughout our workforce, and will continue to challenge and defend ourselves against any allegations to the contrary.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s performance at the electric vehicle maker has been both celebrated and dogged by persistent reports of erratic behavior. But at least as regards labor law, his largely \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101907450/lawsuits-against-national-labor-relations-board-could-cloud-future-of-organized-labor\">successful pushback\u003c/a> against the National Labor Relations Board’s attempts to rein in labor practices at his various companies is widely seen as indicating a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101911701/federal-workers-face-new-round-of-layoffs-as-labor-rights-under-attack\">troubled future for the NLRB\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have prominent people that are close to the White House saying that, really, employment discrimination laws should not have existed in the first place,” said Gould, the Stanford law professor emeritus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gould said many employees following news headlines may steer clear of lawsuits like Vaughn et al v. Tesla for fear of failure and retaliation from employers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Under these circumstances, the fact that workers will not come forward and testify does not necessarily mean that the plaintiffs’ case is weak. It may mean that people are more discouraged and less likely to stick their head up, in the fear that it will get chopped off,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“An infinitesimal number of the workers have testified,” Stanford Law School professor emeritus William Gould IV, a former National Labor Relations Board chairman, told KQED. Tesla “has superior resources, and plaintiffs need the class action to really get the defendant’s attention.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The named plaintiff, former assembly line worker Marcus Vaughn, alleged that Black workers at the Fremont facility were subjected to a range of racist conduct, including slurs, graffiti and nooses hung at their workstations. Vaughn said that line workers and supervisors alike referred to him using a slur on a regular basis and that Tesla did not investigate after he complained in writing to the human resources department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, Vaughn said, Tesla fired him for “not having a positive attitude” six months after he started the job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11992305\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11992305\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1265\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-800x527.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-1020x672.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-160x105.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/TeslaFremont-1536x1012.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A row of new Tesla Superchargers seen outside of the Tesla Factory on Aug. 16, 2013, in Fremont, California. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The ruling is a meaningful legal victory for Tesla, but the company still faces multiple lawsuits alleging pervasive race discrimination and other forms of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101854776/foreign-workers-at-tesla-spotlight-a-visa-system-vulnerable-to-fraud\">worker mistreatment\u003c/a> at its \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11662641/tesla-says-its-factory-is-safer-but-it-left-injuries-off-the-books\">Fremont factory\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which enforces federal anti-discrimination laws, has also brought \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/legal/tesla-appears-unlikely-nix-us-suit-alleging-bias-against-black-workers-2024-03-28/\">race discrimination claims\u003c/a> against Tesla in federal court in California, and state regulators at the California Department of Fair Employment & Housing \u003ca href=\"https://omny.fm/shows/kqed-segmented-audio/tesla-sued-over-disturbing-reports-of-workplace-ra\">are suing\u003c/a> in Alameda County Superior Court. The company has\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-settles-black-employees-lawsuit-alleging-pervasive-harassment-2025-04-17/\"> settled other race discrimination lawsuits\u003c/a> involving individual plaintiffs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the wake of the class-action denial, plaintiffs’ lawyers said they intend to press on with a host of individual lawsuits. They’ve already filed more than 500 and plan to eventually file more than 900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Tesla has jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire with this decertification, because they are now facing hundreds of victims of race harassment seeking damages in their own suits,” wrote the plaintiffs’ co-lead counsel Bryan J. Schwartz.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Tesla and its attorneys did not respond to requests for comment on Monday, but the board has stated to investors that the company remains “committed to creating and maintaining a respectful and inclusive workplace, and the steps we have taken to prevent and address harassment and discrimination throughout our workforce, and will continue to challenge and defend ourselves against any allegations to the contrary.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s performance at the electric vehicle maker has been both celebrated and dogged by persistent reports of erratic behavior. But at least as regards labor law, his largely \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101907450/lawsuits-against-national-labor-relations-board-could-cloud-future-of-organized-labor\">successful pushback\u003c/a> against the National Labor Relations Board’s attempts to rein in labor practices at his various companies is widely seen as indicating a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101911701/federal-workers-face-new-round-of-layoffs-as-labor-rights-under-attack\">troubled future for the NLRB\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have prominent people that are close to the White House saying that, really, employment discrimination laws should not have existed in the first place,” said Gould, the Stanford law professor emeritus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gould said many employees following news headlines may steer clear of lawsuits like Vaughn et al v. Tesla for fear of failure and retaliation from employers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Under these circumstances, the fact that workers will not come forward and testify does not necessarily mean that the plaintiffs’ case is weak. It may mean that people are more discouraged and less likely to stick their head up, in the fear that it will get chopped off,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Elon Musk and X Corp., formally known as Twitter, reached \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025826/what-happens-after-the-fork-in-the-road-a-lawyer-for-ex-twitter-employees-weighs-in\">a settlement with former employees\u003c/a> in a San Francisco court on Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A court filing released Wednesday shows both parties reached an agreement for an undisclosed amount in principle, and requested that a Sept. 17 hearing be postponed while they worked out a deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The class-action lawsuit was led by two former Twitter employees, Courtney McMillian and Ronald Cooper, who requested $500 million on behalf of their colleagues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Musk \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11930570/he-wants-attention-as-elon-musk-takes-over-twitter-this-tech-insider-has-some-thoughts\">bought Twitter\u003c/a> for $44 billion in 2002, he fired 6,000 employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The class-action lawsuit stems from that turnover, after former Twitter employees say they did not receive their severance benefits or information about their severance package.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Twitter’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1418091/000119312522120474/d310843ddefa14a.htm\">merger agreement\u003c/a> states that severance, among other former employee benefits, would be honored for up to a year after the merger. The lawsuit claims that those promises were made to prevent a mass resignation that would threaten the merger deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998863\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998863\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1172\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-800x469.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-1020x598.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-1536x900.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-1920x1125.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view of X headquarters is seen on July 28, 2023, in San Francisco, California. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The severance package included at least two months’ salary, six months’ pay plus one week for each year of service for senior employees and a cash contribution for continued health care, according to the suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMillian’s severance package included six-and-a-half months’ pay, six months of continued health insurance coverage and any bonuses. She was offered severance equal to one month’s pay, according to the suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Copper’s severance allegedly included six months and one week of pay, six months of health insurance coverage, and any bonuses. He was also offered severance equal to one month’s pay.[aside postID=news_12018617 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/NedSegalGetty-1020x680.jpg']Some employees received nothing, the suit said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMillian said in the suit that she was informed that Musk and the company decided to deny employees their severance after reviewing how much it would cost the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The suit also stated that after the merger, Twitter would shut down Slack and emails to prevent employees from seeking information or communicating amongst themselves about their benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When employees asked about the severance plan or other work policies, the company would refer them to view Musk’s personal X account and listen to the “All In” podcast, hosted by his friends Jason Calacanis and David Sacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lawsuit claimed the fired employees were entitled to no less than $500 million.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A federal judge dismissed the class action lawsuit in 2024, but McMillian and Cooper appealed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys representing the former employees and Elon Musk did not yet respond to a request for comment about the settlement. The CEO has yet to post about the settlement on X.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Elon Musk and X Corp., formally known as Twitter, reached \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025826/what-happens-after-the-fork-in-the-road-a-lawyer-for-ex-twitter-employees-weighs-in\">a settlement with former employees\u003c/a> in a San Francisco court on Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A court filing released Wednesday shows both parties reached an agreement for an undisclosed amount in principle, and requested that a Sept. 17 hearing be postponed while they worked out a deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The class-action lawsuit was led by two former Twitter employees, Courtney McMillian and Ronald Cooper, who requested $500 million on behalf of their colleagues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Musk \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11930570/he-wants-attention-as-elon-musk-takes-over-twitter-this-tech-insider-has-some-thoughts\">bought Twitter\u003c/a> for $44 billion in 2002, he fired 6,000 employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The class-action lawsuit stems from that turnover, after former Twitter employees say they did not receive their severance benefits or information about their severance package.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Twitter’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1418091/000119312522120474/d310843ddefa14a.htm\">merger agreement\u003c/a> states that severance, among other former employee benefits, would be honored for up to a year after the merger. The lawsuit claims that those promises were made to prevent a mass resignation that would threaten the merger deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998863\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998863\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1172\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-800x469.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-1020x598.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-160x94.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-1536x900.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/XSFGetty-1920x1125.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view of X headquarters is seen on July 28, 2023, in San Francisco, California. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The severance package included at least two months’ salary, six months’ pay plus one week for each year of service for senior employees and a cash contribution for continued health care, according to the suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMillian’s severance package included six-and-a-half months’ pay, six months of continued health insurance coverage and any bonuses. She was offered severance equal to one month’s pay, according to the suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Copper’s severance allegedly included six months and one week of pay, six months of health insurance coverage, and any bonuses. He was also offered severance equal to one month’s pay.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Some employees received nothing, the suit said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMillian said in the suit that she was informed that Musk and the company decided to deny employees their severance after reviewing how much it would cost the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The suit also stated that after the merger, Twitter would shut down Slack and emails to prevent employees from seeking information or communicating amongst themselves about their benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When employees asked about the severance plan or other work policies, the company would refer them to view Musk’s personal X account and listen to the “All In” podcast, hosted by his friends Jason Calacanis and David Sacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The lawsuit claimed the fired employees were entitled to no less than $500 million.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A federal judge dismissed the class action lawsuit in 2024, but McMillian and Cooper appealed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys representing the former employees and Elon Musk did not yet respond to a request for comment about the settlement. The CEO has yet to post about the settlement on X.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "The Giant Elon Musk 'Make America Wait Again' Head Made It to Yosemite This Weekend",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 3:30 p.m. Tuesday \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, a giant bust of Elon Musk — accompanied by the words “Make America Wait Again: Now With Longer Lines Thanks To DOGE Cuts!” — \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/elon-musk-head-arches-national-park\">appeared in Utah’s Arches National Park\u003c/a>, towed on a trailer behind a truck driving through the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, the Musk bust has appeared again — this time in Yosemite National Park.[aside postID='news_12047124,news_12048728,news_12045255' label='Getting Outside']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitor Greg Perkins told KQED that he spotted the sculpture, which makes reference to the Tesla CEO and former Department of Government Efficiency leader’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12041320/in-crisis-mode-former-national-park-leaders-say-cuts-will-hit-public-lands-hard\">attempts to reduce the staff and budgets of federal departments like the National Parks Service\u003c/a>, in Yosemite this weekend — and captured photos of the giant head passing iconic park spots like \u003ca href=\"https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/upper-yosemite-falls-trail\">Yosemite Falls\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/places/000/el-capitan-meadow.htm\">El Capitan\u003c/a>. According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/elon-musk-head-arches-national-park\">\u003cem>Outside\u003c/em> magazine\u003c/a>, the head spotted in Arches was 12 feet high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott Carr, Director of Communication for Yosemite National Park, confirmed that the bust of Musk was indeed present in the park this weekend. Addressing the issue of wait times referenced by the bust’s signage, Carr told KQED by email that “Yosemite National Park is one of the busiest parks in the National Park System and while it is still early in the summer season the park is on pace to surpass last year’s visitation totals of more than 4.1 million visitors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Wait times to enter Yosemite vary daily and throughout the day,” wrote Carr, and “weekends, specifically Friday and Saturday, are the busiest days with peak traffic between 9 a.m. and 2 p.m.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12049029\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12049029 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1390\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1-160x116.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1-1536x1112.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Visitors to Yosemite National Park take photos of a traveling bust of Elon Musk. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Greg Perkins)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to the National Parks Conservation Association, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npca.org/articles/9551-staffing-crisis-at-national-parks-reaches-breaking-point-new-data-shows-24\">permanent staffing at national parks around the United States has fallen 24%\u003c/a> since President Donald Trump took office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>National Parks have \u003ca href=\"https://www.npca.org/articles/2675-lands-of-protest\">long been used as sites of protest\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://planning.dc.gov/publication/history-resistance-lafayette-square-and-black-lives-matter-movement-washington-dc\">2020 Black Lives Matter protests\u003c/a> in Washington, D.C.’s Lafayette Square opposite the White House and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11788540/a-look-back-at-the-occupation-of-alcatraz-50-years-later\">Native American occupation of Alcatraz Island in the 1960s\u003c/a>. In February,\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/upside-us-flag-hung-yosemite-national-park-protest-employee-cuts-rcna193409\"> Yosemite staffers hung an upside-down United State flag\u003c/a> from the face of El Capitan during \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11860844/yosemite-firefall-week-2021\">the park’s annual “firefall” event\u003c/a> in protest of the Trump administration’s proposed cuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12049021\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12049021 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1282\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983-160x107.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983-1536x1026.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The bust of Elon Musk towed on a trailer behind a truck driving through Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Greg Perkins)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration’s policies have taken direct aim at public lands during the president’s first six months back in office, from \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Fiscal-Year-2026-Discretionary-Budget-Request.pdf\">calls to cut $900 million from the NPS operations budget\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12046147/incredibly-short-sighted-land-conservation-groups-rally-against-gop-proposal-to-sell-off-public-lands-like-tahoe\">attempts to sell U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management properties\u003c/a> to private buyers to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/26/nx-s1-5444323/national-park-trump-signs\">new signs asking visitors to federal lands to report signage\u003c/a> that includes “negative” information about U.S. history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12049028\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12049028\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1139\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP-160x95.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP-1536x911.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A giant head of former DOGE head Elon Musk travels through Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Greg Perkins)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12046147/incredibly-short-sighted-land-conservation-groups-rally-against-gop-proposal-to-sell-off-public-lands-like-tahoe\">lands sale was ultimately scrapped from Republicans’ budget bill\u003c/a>, and most \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/07/15/national-parks-spared-deeper-budget-cuts-2026-grassroots-protests/\">parks funding may remain intact in 2026\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12048367/can-trump-really-reopen-alcatraz-delegation-heads-to-island-to-make-case\">top Trump officials still have their eyes on Alcatraz National Park as a future federal prison site\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some national parks are also struggling not only with \u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7301979/national-park-system-trump-administration/\">low morale around the uncertainty \u003c/a>of staffing shortages and underfunding, but also \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/23/nx-s1-5393641/trump-budget-cuts-national-parks-joshua-tree-safety\">with reported lower visitation\u003c/a> as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12040535/canadians-tourists-say-they-are-avoiding-the-united-states-due-to-fear\">international travel wanes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "With the tagline ‘Make America Wait Again: Now With Longer Lines Thanks to DOGE Cuts!’ a truck towing a giant bust of Elon Musk's head was sighted in Yosemite National Park last week after first touring Arches in Utah earlier this month.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 3:30 p.m. Tuesday \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, a giant bust of Elon Musk — accompanied by the words “Make America Wait Again: Now With Longer Lines Thanks To DOGE Cuts!” — \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/elon-musk-head-arches-national-park\">appeared in Utah’s Arches National Park\u003c/a>, towed on a trailer behind a truck driving through the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, the Musk bust has appeared again — this time in Yosemite National Park.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitor Greg Perkins told KQED that he spotted the sculpture, which makes reference to the Tesla CEO and former Department of Government Efficiency leader’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12041320/in-crisis-mode-former-national-park-leaders-say-cuts-will-hit-public-lands-hard\">attempts to reduce the staff and budgets of federal departments like the National Parks Service\u003c/a>, in Yosemite this weekend — and captured photos of the giant head passing iconic park spots like \u003ca href=\"https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/upper-yosemite-falls-trail\">Yosemite Falls\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/places/000/el-capitan-meadow.htm\">El Capitan\u003c/a>. According to \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/elon-musk-head-arches-national-park\">\u003cem>Outside\u003c/em> magazine\u003c/a>, the head spotted in Arches was 12 feet high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scott Carr, Director of Communication for Yosemite National Park, confirmed that the bust of Musk was indeed present in the park this weekend. Addressing the issue of wait times referenced by the bust’s signage, Carr told KQED by email that “Yosemite National Park is one of the busiest parks in the National Park System and while it is still early in the summer season the park is on pace to surpass last year’s visitation totals of more than 4.1 million visitors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Wait times to enter Yosemite vary daily and throughout the day,” wrote Carr, and “weekends, specifically Friday and Saturday, are the busiest days with peak traffic between 9 a.m. and 2 p.m.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12049029\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12049029 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1390\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1-160x116.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose2-1-1536x1112.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Visitors to Yosemite National Park take photos of a traveling bust of Elon Musk. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Greg Perkins)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to the National Parks Conservation Association, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npca.org/articles/9551-staffing-crisis-at-national-parks-reaches-breaking-point-new-data-shows-24\">permanent staffing at national parks around the United States has fallen 24%\u003c/a> since President Donald Trump took office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>National Parks have \u003ca href=\"https://www.npca.org/articles/2675-lands-of-protest\">long been used as sites of protest\u003c/a>, including \u003ca href=\"https://planning.dc.gov/publication/history-resistance-lafayette-square-and-black-lives-matter-movement-washington-dc\">2020 Black Lives Matter protests\u003c/a> in Washington, D.C.’s Lafayette Square opposite the White House and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11788540/a-look-back-at-the-occupation-of-alcatraz-50-years-later\">Native American occupation of Alcatraz Island in the 1960s\u003c/a>. In February,\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/upside-us-flag-hung-yosemite-national-park-protest-employee-cuts-rcna193409\"> Yosemite staffers hung an upside-down United State flag\u003c/a> from the face of El Capitan during \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11860844/yosemite-firefall-week-2021\">the park’s annual “firefall” event\u003c/a> in protest of the Trump administration’s proposed cuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12049021\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12049021 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1282\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983-160x107.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose4-e1753130794983-1536x1026.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The bust of Elon Musk towed on a trailer behind a truck driving through Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Greg Perkins)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration’s policies have taken direct aim at public lands during the president’s first six months back in office, from \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Fiscal-Year-2026-Discretionary-Budget-Request.pdf\">calls to cut $900 million from the NPS operations budget\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12046147/incredibly-short-sighted-land-conservation-groups-rally-against-gop-proposal-to-sell-off-public-lands-like-tahoe\">attempts to sell U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management properties\u003c/a> to private buyers to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/26/nx-s1-5444323/national-park-trump-signs\">new signs asking visitors to federal lands to report signage\u003c/a> that includes “negative” information about U.S. history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12049028\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12049028\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1139\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP-160x95.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/S_ElYose3_CROP-1536x911.png 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A giant head of former DOGE head Elon Musk travels through Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Greg Perkins)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12046147/incredibly-short-sighted-land-conservation-groups-rally-against-gop-proposal-to-sell-off-public-lands-like-tahoe\">lands sale was ultimately scrapped from Republicans’ budget bill\u003c/a>, and most \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/07/15/national-parks-spared-deeper-budget-cuts-2026-grassroots-protests/\">parks funding may remain intact in 2026\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12048367/can-trump-really-reopen-alcatraz-delegation-heads-to-island-to-make-case\">top Trump officials still have their eyes on Alcatraz National Park as a future federal prison site\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some national parks are also struggling not only with \u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7301979/national-park-system-trump-administration/\">low morale around the uncertainty \u003c/a>of staffing shortages and underfunding, but also \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/23/nx-s1-5393641/trump-budget-cuts-national-parks-joshua-tree-safety\">with reported lower visitation\u003c/a> as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12040535/canadians-tourists-say-they-are-avoiding-the-united-states-due-to-fear\">international travel wanes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california-economy\">California\u003c/a> experienced one of its biggest monthly losses of federal jobs in more than a decade, according to a new report by state employment officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than 2,000 federal positions were cut in May, with the U.S. Postal Service, federal prisons and the Departments of Interior, Veterans Affairs and Defense facing the largest reductions. Local government hiring, meanwhile, increased by more than 3,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California’s economy is still strong,” said Ryan Cummings, chief of staff at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since January, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\">Trump administration\u003c/a> has pursued sweeping cuts to the federal workforce. The Department of Government Efficiency, created by President Donald Trump and previously headed by tech billionaire Elon Musk, was tasked with reducing the federal government’s spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tens of thousands of federal employees have been fired, placed on administration leave or processed into deferred resignation programs since the agency’s creation. A federal judge recently \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12041294/us-judge-said-trump-administration-exceeded-its-authority-with-federal-layoffs\">extended a preliminary injunction\u003c/a> on further cuts to the workforce.[aside postID=news_12034478 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/FederalEmployeeLayoffsGetty.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fortunately, California’s employment rate sits at a steady 5.3% and hiring has remained relatively stable overall, Cummings said. The state added more than 17,000 jobs last month, with health care and social assistance sectors seeing the greatest growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The federal job losses will not significantly affect the state’s economy in the short term, Cummings said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added, however, that people will still feel the effects of the cuts on the ground. Federal agencies such as those responsible for air traffic control, national park maintenance and nuclear oversight have been affected by the federal administration’s attempts to downsize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Veterans who rely on the Department of Veterans Affairs may struggle to access the same level of services because there’s less staff, Cummings said. People living in rural communities who rely on the U.S. Postal Service to receive and send their mail may see certain routes get cut, he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s all of these things that can collectively happen over time,” Cummings said. “It then turns into a more chronic condition.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s very rare that economists see such sudden changes to the federal workforce, Cummings continued. While the state saw similar losses in 2010, the changes to federal employment rates were a result of people being temporarily hired for the census.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What we’re seeing now is very different,” Cummings said. “The people who are losing their jobs aren’t simply completing their time-limited contract. It’s Americans at all stages of their careers who either have been or were expecting to dedicate their lives to public service.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california-economy\">California\u003c/a> experienced one of its biggest monthly losses of federal jobs in more than a decade, according to a new report by state employment officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than 2,000 federal positions were cut in May, with the U.S. Postal Service, federal prisons and the Departments of Interior, Veterans Affairs and Defense facing the largest reductions. Local government hiring, meanwhile, increased by more than 3,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California’s economy is still strong,” said Ryan Cummings, chief of staff at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since January, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\">Trump administration\u003c/a> has pursued sweeping cuts to the federal workforce. The Department of Government Efficiency, created by President Donald Trump and previously headed by tech billionaire Elon Musk, was tasked with reducing the federal government’s spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tens of thousands of federal employees have been fired, placed on administration leave or processed into deferred resignation programs since the agency’s creation. A federal judge recently \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12041294/us-judge-said-trump-administration-exceeded-its-authority-with-federal-layoffs\">extended a preliminary injunction\u003c/a> on further cuts to the workforce.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fortunately, California’s employment rate sits at a steady 5.3% and hiring has remained relatively stable overall, Cummings said. The state added more than 17,000 jobs last month, with health care and social assistance sectors seeing the greatest growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The federal job losses will not significantly affect the state’s economy in the short term, Cummings said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added, however, that people will still feel the effects of the cuts on the ground. Federal agencies such as those responsible for air traffic control, national park maintenance and nuclear oversight have been affected by the federal administration’s attempts to downsize.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Veterans who rely on the Department of Veterans Affairs may struggle to access the same level of services because there’s less staff, Cummings said. People living in rural communities who rely on the U.S. Postal Service to receive and send their mail may see certain routes get cut, he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s all of these things that can collectively happen over time,” Cummings said. “It then turns into a more chronic condition.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s very rare that economists see such sudden changes to the federal workforce, Cummings continued. While the state saw similar losses in 2010, the changes to federal employment rates were a result of people being temporarily hired for the census.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What we’re seeing now is very different,” Cummings said. “The people who are losing their jobs aren’t simply completing their time-limited contract. It’s Americans at all stages of their careers who either have been or were expecting to dedicate their lives to public service.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Elon Musk and President Trump breaking up? LA protesters clashing with law enforcement? Waymos on fire (again)? Things have been moving fast the last few days — and like you, our feeds are on overload. Today, we’re bringing you a quick reaction episode to catch you up on a couple stories we’ve covered before that are suddenly back in the news. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva joins Morgan to break it all down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1677724333\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve talked about a few of these stories before — if you want to go deeper, here are some past episodes to check out:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033066/the-broligarchy-pt-1-chronicles-of-the-paypal-mafia\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Broligarchy Pt 1: Chronicles of the PayPal Mafia | KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038910/the-surveillance-machine-pt-1-how-we-got-here\">The Surveillance Machine, Pt. 1: How We Got Here | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030860/waymo-problems\">Waymo Robotaxis – Uneasiness and Vandalism | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-musk-summary-timeline-political-relationship-rcna211453\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A timeline of the twists and turns in the Trump-Musk relationship\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nnamdi Egwuonwu, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/immigration-protests-threaten-to-boil-over-in-los-angeles\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigration Protests Threaten to Boil Over in Los Angeles \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— E. Tammy Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://lapublicpress.org/2025/06/ice-raids-separate-families-but-bring-los-angeles-together/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE raids tried to split LA apart, but might have made it stronger\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Lozano, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LA Public Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/91348960/how-waymo-got-caught-in-the-crossfire-of-los-angeles-ice-protests\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Waymo got caught in the crossfire of Los Angeles ICE protests\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Joe Berkowitz, \u003ci>Fast Company\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. We had planned to bring you part two of our Spotify deep dive today. And don’t worry, we’ll get back to that next week. But there have been some developments over the past week. Basically, the last few days have been so wild that we need to talk about it. We’re actually following up on three of our previous episodes today. And joining me to help sort through all of it is our producer, Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>Hey Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Hey Maya. So this will be a bit of a speed round. Two quick tabs today. And as a side quest, I am going to try to make the case to you, Maya, for why I’ve stayed on Twitter, or as we now call it, X. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, please make your case, because it’s hard for me to get why anyone would want to stay on X, but I do want to understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will try my best. Okay, we’ve got a few things to cover today, including what’s happening with Waymos and protest surveillance in LA. But before we get to that, we have to talk about something that happened last week. Elon Musk and Donald Trump finally broke up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maya, are you ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, Morgan. Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Great Elon Crash Out. Back in March, we did a series on “the Broligarchy,” and more specifically, the ideology that drives tech titans like Elon Musk as they accumulate political power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how they might use that power to influence U.S. Policy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing a rise in what I guess we’ll call the “Broligarchy”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The “Broligarchs” really have an explicit political agenda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you survive the “Broligarchy”? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And nothing embodied the Broligarchy quite like the relationship between Elon Musk and President Donald Trump. And I just want to say up front, this stuff is really serious, right? Like the fact that these two men control so many levers of power and the ripple effects of their decisions have already had massive and sometimes devastating consequences — that should be a source of concern for us all. But at the same time, their personal relationship, what many have called a bromance, there’s something kind of funny about it. Like it has high school vibes. And social media has really eaten that up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it seems like that relationship is over, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s true. At least it is as of when we’re recording this, on Monday afternoon. After less than a year since Musk publicly endorsed Trump, the bromance is dead. Okay, let’s start right after Election Day. They were still pretty cozy back then. This was Trump in his victory speech right after winning the election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me tell you, we have a new star. A star is born, Elon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Elon starts overseeing DOGE, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. He’s the face of the Department of Government Efficiency. And under his de facto leadership, DOGE is slashing government agencies left and right. We see mass layoffs and the dismantling of aid programs. And it’s an accounting and privacy disaster. Obviously, Trump and Musk are getting a lot of backlash over this. And we start to see cracks in the relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, yeah, and didn’t that bizarre White House Tesla showcase happen during all of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, by March, Tesla stock was down by like 45%. So while Tesla is slumping as a company, Trump and Musk turned the White House lawn into a Tesla showroom. They live stream it on X and Trump makes a show of wanting to buy one. He really talks up the Cybertruck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who else but this guy would design this, and everybody on the road is looking at it. It’s amazing, actually. As soon as I saw it, I said, that is the coolest design. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you know how there’s always that one couple on Instagram that you know is not doing well, but they overcompensate by posting really, like, lovey-dovey captions and all that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ugh, yes, it’s like, why are you pretending? You’re not fooling anyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so I think this Tesla showcase is kind of like that. That same month, as the White House gets heat for DOGE’s actions, Trump goes on Truth Social and says that the agency heads are in charge of staffing, not Musk and DOGE. This is when the president starts to rein Musk in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so we’ve heard that Trump and Musk are getting backlash for a lot of the actions they’re taking, especially DOGE, and Musk’s companies are suffering. And all of this seems to be creating tension, right? So when did the actual breakup happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, at the start of last month, Musk says he’s stepping back from DOGE to focus on his own companies like Tesla and SpaceX. A few weeks later, Musk goes on CBS and bashes the president’s budget proposal, what Trump calls his “Big, Beautiful Bill.” Musk says that bill increases the budget deficit and undermines DOGE’s work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elon Musk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a bill can be big or it can be beautiful, but I don’t know if it could be both. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the end of the month, the White House announces that Musk’s temporary role as a special government employee has ended. They host a ceremony, and the president makes this grand gesture of gifting Musk a gold key to the White house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have given it to some, but it goes to very special people, and I thought I’d give it to Elon as a presentation from our country. Thank you, Elon. Take care. Thank you \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so this seems pretty cordial to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s like that part of a breakup where you tell people you’re still on good terms and you wish each other the best and you’re going to be in each other’s lives, all that. But like, we know what happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah, we’ve all been there before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, except these are two exceptionally powerful men. So this is where it gets really juicy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, tell me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So a couple of days ago, Musk goes on X and starts tearing apart the bill. He says, hold on, let me pull it up. “This massive, outrageous, pork-filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You KNOW it.” And Trump tells reporters that Musk is upset because the bill would end tax credits for electric vehicles. And then these guys just start going at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, so what happened? Can you break it down for me? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is why I say I will never leave the app, because as bad as it gets, there are still days when everyone comes out of hibernation and just starts posting. And this includes Elon Musk. So he starts firing off at Trump on X. First, he says that Trump would have lost the election without him. Trump goes to Truth Social, and he says Musk went crazy after he was asked to leave the White House. He threatens to cut Musk’s government subsidies and contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m guessing Elon Musk didn’t take that well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, not at all. Musk goes nuclear. He runs back to X and posts something that makes everyone’s jaw drop. He claims that the president is in the Epstein files. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So it’s worth noting that Trump was once publicly friends with the pedophile and sex trafficker, Jeffrey Epstein. But he hasn’t been implicated in any of the investigations into Epstein or his accomplices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it can’t get worse than that, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He kept going. In another post, Musk says that the tariffs will cause a recession. And then he reposts someone else who says that Trump should be impeached and replaced with JD Vance. So this is all what people are calling a “generational crash out.” Were you seeing any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, Morgan, not the full back and forth. Like I got the condensed version from IG Reels, reacting to them fighting. And I saw some funny responses like when AOC quoted Azealea Banks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reporter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Any quick reaction on what’s going on with Elon Musk and President Trump on Twitter right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, the girls are fighting, aren’t they? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the reason I’m still on this hellish app. There were so many good memes about this breakup. Like there’s this one where someone posted a picture of Trump and Musk together and then captioned it with the lyrics from the Bon Iver song, Skinny Love, classic breakup song. We’ve all been there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or someone else posted this edit mashing up a scene from the Diary of a Wimpy Kid Movie, and Driver’s License by Olivia Rodrigo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Diary of a Wimpy Kid Movie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You broke my hand and you didn’t even seem sorry. That broken hand was the best thing that ever happened to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they captioned it, “the two most powerful men in the country on a random Thursday.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hilarious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll tell you about one example that really sent me. Maya, are you familiar with old man yaoi? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait no, what is that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is one of those very online, deep internet things, so just stay with me here. Old man yaoi is kind of like a jokey fan fiction trope. Yaoi is this Japanese term that refers to gay male relationships in manga and anime. Sometimes it’s called BL, or boy’s love, and people will also tag fan fiction as yaoi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Old man yaoi is this term for older male characters, and naturally, Because the internet is the way it is, there is a lot of tongue-in-cheek old man yaoi about Trump. Wait, really? Last year, there was a lot of enemies-to-lovers old man yaoi about Trump and former President Joe Biden. And now, there is old man yaoi about Trump and Musk. Can I read you an excerpt that I saw on X during the great crash out? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess. I don’t think I have a choice here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sorry, you do not. Okay. So here’s a dramatic reading of some old man yaoi posted by X user. Aegonism. Aegonism, thank you for making my day. “Donald, please, let’s just talk about this,” Elon pleads, attempting to catch the other man’s eyes. But Donald rolls over in bed, presenting his back to him. The tension in the bedroom is suffocating, and Elon tries to take a deep breath, but it feels like he can barely get any air. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There’s nothing to talk about,” Donald finally responds, flatly, and Elon is taken aback by his tone. He sounds so cold and distant. He doesn’t want to fight. He can feel tears welling up and he takes a moment to wipe his face before continuing, hoping Donald won’t notice his red rimmed eyes. “Don, this bill is bad for Tesla. You have to understand that.” Donald sighs heavily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God, I literally have no words. I do admire the creativity though. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, one of the top 10 days on Twitter. This app is terrible, but there’s nothing that’s really taken its place for me. I get a lot of news from Reddit and Bluesky, funny posts from Tumblr, and Instagram is great for organizing and sharing resources, and honestly, good shitpost accounts. TikTok is up there with good content too, but there is nothing that quite has the same real-time, super fast memeability like Twitter does, and you’re definitely not getting the stuff on threads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I feel like I am convinced now. So what are some of the other top meme days on Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, just a recent years, Luigi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to give a credit to Luigi Mangione \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Will Smith Oscar slap. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Rock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Will Smith just smacked the shit out of me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You remember that time that ship got stuck in the Suez Canal? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A giant container ship ran aground in the Suez Canal after losing power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or when President Biden dropped out of the presidential race. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 5: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">President Joe Biden’s decision not to run for re-election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or JD Vance couch rumors, we remember that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Youtuber \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may be wondering why you’re seeing a ton of memes and posts about Donald Trump’s VP pick, JD vance, and his sectional relationship with his couch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do remember that and we did a story about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my personal favorite day is right after the election back in 2020 when Rudy Giuliani hosted a press conference at Four Seasons Total Landscaping instead of the Four Seasons Hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hayes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, there is, of course, a mystery that hangs over all this, which is how the press conference came to be held at Four Seasons Total Landscaping in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God, yes, I remember this! Okay, so I feel like I kind of get it. It’s the immediacy, right? But let’s get back to the bromance breakup, our Trump and Musk done for good? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, like any good breakup, it’s complicated. Musk actually ended up deleting some of his more incendiary posts, including the one about the Epstein files. Over the weekend, Trump told NBC News that their relationship was over and that he has no desire to repair it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>Ooof. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Classic breakup. But it looks like Elon is the one missing Trump, but Trump is the one over it. And we’re all watching their reality TV show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, exactly. Except, unlike Love Island-. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Love Island: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Love Island! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This reality show also has massive real world ripple effects, which are affecting real people. The state of democracy kind of rests on the whims of these two very powerful, very egotistical guys. But I will say that the tone has changed recently. Musk is screenshotting some of Trump’s Truth Social posts and reposting them on X, appearing to agree with him. So it seems like he’s trying to make amends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think I did see that he was agreeing with Trump’s post condemning the protests against ICE raids in LA. I feel like we should get into that Morgan, right? In a new tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We definitely will. But before we do that, let’s take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. New tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening in LA ?? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so last month we did a two-part episode on the Surveillance State and how protesters and organizers are being identified and targeted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">30-Year-old Rumeysa Ozturk was on her way to break her Ramadan fast when six plain-clothed officers approached her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Morgan, what’s going on where you are in Los Angeles? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you hear any background noise right now, it’s probably the helicopters flying over my apartment. I’m not too far from the protests, and LAPD has been circling over the city all weekend. We’re recording this on Monday evening, and the protests are still going strong. But aside from where those demonstrations are happening, at least in the neighborhood I’m in, LA is unsettlingly quiet. It’s like people are afraid to go outside, especially as ICE continues to patrol the city. But again, this is why I’m still on Twitter. There’s a pretty well-established network of mutual aid groups and organizers sharing resources and information over there. A lot of it is on Instagram, but real-time updates are coming from Twitter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’m seeing it all over my IG feed as well, but when did this all start? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, it all started with a string of immigration raids on Friday, from a Home Depot to a clothing store downtown. And then people who appeared for their immigration check-ins were detained and taken to unknown locations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FBI, Homeland Security, and ICE agents performed a raid a couple of hours ago. We’re just now seeing some people that are being detained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, Los Angeles is a sanctuary city. City resources cannot be used for federal immigration enforcement, and the city is prohibited from sharing data with immigration authorities. It’s also worth noting that Los Angeles is a city of immigrants, something that a lot of the community takes pride in. So protests started that night, one outside an immigration detention center downtown and another in the fashion district where one of the ICE raids happened. At some point, they converged. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let them free, let them stay! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Law enforcement showed up in riot gear to disperse the crowds. But the protests spread on Saturday across downtown LA, Compton, and Paramount. Trump deployed at least 2,000 National Guard troops in Los Angeles, which Governor Newsom has called unlawful and a serious breach of state sovereignty. Law enforcement has used tear gas and pepper spray and flashbang grenades to try to disperse the crowds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You told me you got caught up in the tear gas as well? Describe what happened to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on the street: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, just, uh, tasted a little tear gas. Tasted like fascism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it all really escalated on Sunday afternoon, which coincided with LA Pride. People were literally going straight from Pride events to the protests, demanding an end to ICE raids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s got the power? We’ve got the power! What kind of power? People Power! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They even managed to shut down the freeway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Weirdo! Weirdos! Weirdo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the LAPD has deployed rubber bullets and surveillance drones in addition to the tear gas and flashbang grenades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they’re going to push in from this side of the road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s everything with Waymos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, like a few months ago, we did an episode on the recent uptick in Waymo vandalism. And as a reminder, Waymos are the autonomous self-driving cars that operate in a few cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles. But Morgan, why don’t you walk us through what Waymos have to do with the protests? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, a bunch of Waymos happened to be nearby during the protests downtown. And amid the confrontation between law enforcement and protestors, those Waymos were tagged with anti-ICE messages and then set on fire, which went super viral. So there’s been a lot of discourse around Waymo vandalism and property damage during these protests. But I think it’s important to remember that Waymos have become representative of encroaching big tech, especially here in LA. There’s a lot of anger at the way that tech companies like Palantir are helping immigration enforcement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, and plus there’s speculation that Waymos might be used as surveillance tools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. 404 media recently reported that the LAPD has used footage obtained from a Waymo to investigate crimes. So a lot people are suspicious of autonomous vehicles right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so what else is happening in LA? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, now the latest escalation is that the Trump administration is sending Marines to LA? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I saw that. It really looks like a war zone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, only around certain parts of L.A. But the president is posting through it on Truth Social. He’s called the protests “a riot.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, I haven’t seen any of that because I’m not on Truth Social, but does this bring us back to Elon Musk? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also not on Truth Social, but I did see screenshots on Twitter. And yes, one of the posts that Musk shared on Twitter, or X, calls for a ban on masks at protests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And like we talked about in our surveillance series a few weeks ago, masks have become a staple at protests to avoid facial recognition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That and also to reduce exposure to tear gas, pepper spray, and airborne viruses like COVID. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but like we’ve seen in the student protests for Palestine over the last year, there’s been an effort to make protesters easier to identify. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. On Truth Social, Trump has also called for the arrest of anyone wearing a mask. So masking has become a real point of contention in these protests as activists demand that ICE agents and LAPD and other law enforcement officials also unmask when showing up to protests. This is a thing in Los Angeles especially. Activists have made an effort to identify ICE agents and publicize their names and faces so that anyone at risk of deportation knows who to avoid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now some conservative lawmakers are trying to penalize anyone who identifies a law enforcement officer. Republican Senator Marsha Blackburn recently proposed legislation that would punish people with up to five years in prison for identifying ICE agents. But, we’ll have to see how the protests unfold throughout the rest of the month. ICE operations in LA are supposed to continue for the next 30 days. But it is worth noting that the president’s social media posts aren’t like legal powers enshrined in the Constitution. They can’t enforce a mask ban just because he posted about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They can’t legally enforce that. But we’ve seen this administration do plenty of things they’re not supposed to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So true. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. Executive orders are quick to enact, and the justice system is really slow. And those things have real consequences for all of us. So, while Twitter memes are a nice distraction, let’s remember how serious this is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. I mean, I’m trying to curb my Twitter addiction, but between the memes and the important protest information, it’s just really hard to leave. Anyway, those were all our updates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for joining, Maya. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anytime Morgan, because I literally work here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaking of protest information, if you do find yourself in a protest zone, stay safe. We’ll leave some links about protecting your digital privacy in the show notes. And it might be worth going back and listening to our two-part series called The Surveillance Machine. We’ll be back next week with part two of our series on Spotify. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager. And Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or drop it on Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Elon Musk and President Trump breaking up? LA protesters clashing with law enforcement? Waymos on fire (again)? Things have been moving fast the last few days — and like you, our feeds are on overload. Today, we’re bringing you a quick reaction episode to catch you up on a couple stories we’ve covered before that are suddenly back in the news. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva joins Morgan to break it all down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1677724333\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve talked about a few of these stories before — if you want to go deeper, here are some past episodes to check out:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033066/the-broligarchy-pt-1-chronicles-of-the-paypal-mafia\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Broligarchy Pt 1: Chronicles of the PayPal Mafia | KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038910/the-surveillance-machine-pt-1-how-we-got-here\">The Surveillance Machine, Pt. 1: How We Got Here | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030860/waymo-problems\">Waymo Robotaxis – Uneasiness and Vandalism | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-musk-summary-timeline-political-relationship-rcna211453\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A timeline of the twists and turns in the Trump-Musk relationship\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nnamdi Egwuonwu, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NBC News \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/immigration-protests-threaten-to-boil-over-in-los-angeles\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Immigration Protests Threaten to Boil Over in Los Angeles \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— E. Tammy Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://lapublicpress.org/2025/06/ice-raids-separate-families-but-bring-los-angeles-together/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE raids tried to split LA apart, but might have made it stronger\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Lozano, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LA Public Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.fastcompany.com/91348960/how-waymo-got-caught-in-the-crossfire-of-los-angeles-ice-protests\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Waymo got caught in the crossfire of Los Angeles ICE protests\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Joe Berkowitz, \u003ci>Fast Company\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey guys, welcome to Close All Tabs. We had planned to bring you part two of our Spotify deep dive today. And don’t worry, we’ll get back to that next week. But there have been some developments over the past week. Basically, the last few days have been so wild that we need to talk about it. We’re actually following up on three of our previous episodes today. And joining me to help sort through all of it is our producer, Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>Hey Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Hey Maya. So this will be a bit of a speed round. Two quick tabs today. And as a side quest, I am going to try to make the case to you, Maya, for why I’ve stayed on Twitter, or as we now call it, X. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, please make your case, because it’s hard for me to get why anyone would want to stay on X, but I do want to understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will try my best. Okay, we’ve got a few things to cover today, including what’s happening with Waymos and protest surveillance in LA. But before we get to that, we have to talk about something that happened last week. Elon Musk and Donald Trump finally broke up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maya, are you ready? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, Morgan. Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Great Elon Crash Out. Back in March, we did a series on “the Broligarchy,” and more specifically, the ideology that drives tech titans like Elon Musk as they accumulate political power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how they might use that power to influence U.S. Policy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing a rise in what I guess we’ll call the “Broligarchy”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The “Broligarchs” really have an explicit political agenda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you survive the “Broligarchy”? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And nothing embodied the Broligarchy quite like the relationship between Elon Musk and President Donald Trump. And I just want to say up front, this stuff is really serious, right? Like the fact that these two men control so many levers of power and the ripple effects of their decisions have already had massive and sometimes devastating consequences — that should be a source of concern for us all. But at the same time, their personal relationship, what many have called a bromance, there’s something kind of funny about it. Like it has high school vibes. And social media has really eaten that up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it seems like that relationship is over, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s true. At least it is as of when we’re recording this, on Monday afternoon. After less than a year since Musk publicly endorsed Trump, the bromance is dead. Okay, let’s start right after Election Day. They were still pretty cozy back then. This was Trump in his victory speech right after winning the election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me tell you, we have a new star. A star is born, Elon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then Elon starts overseeing DOGE, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. He’s the face of the Department of Government Efficiency. And under his de facto leadership, DOGE is slashing government agencies left and right. We see mass layoffs and the dismantling of aid programs. And it’s an accounting and privacy disaster. Obviously, Trump and Musk are getting a lot of backlash over this. And we start to see cracks in the relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, yeah, and didn’t that bizarre White House Tesla showcase happen during all of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, by March, Tesla stock was down by like 45%. So while Tesla is slumping as a company, Trump and Musk turned the White House lawn into a Tesla showroom. They live stream it on X and Trump makes a show of wanting to buy one. He really talks up the Cybertruck. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who else but this guy would design this, and everybody on the road is looking at it. It’s amazing, actually. As soon as I saw it, I said, that is the coolest design. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you know how there’s always that one couple on Instagram that you know is not doing well, but they overcompensate by posting really, like, lovey-dovey captions and all that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ugh, yes, it’s like, why are you pretending? You’re not fooling anyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so I think this Tesla showcase is kind of like that. That same month, as the White House gets heat for DOGE’s actions, Trump goes on Truth Social and says that the agency heads are in charge of staffing, not Musk and DOGE. This is when the president starts to rein Musk in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so we’ve heard that Trump and Musk are getting backlash for a lot of the actions they’re taking, especially DOGE, and Musk’s companies are suffering. And all of this seems to be creating tension, right? So when did the actual breakup happen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, at the start of last month, Musk says he’s stepping back from DOGE to focus on his own companies like Tesla and SpaceX. A few weeks later, Musk goes on CBS and bashes the president’s budget proposal, what Trump calls his “Big, Beautiful Bill.” Musk says that bill increases the budget deficit and undermines DOGE’s work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elon Musk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a bill can be big or it can be beautiful, but I don’t know if it could be both. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the end of the month, the White House announces that Musk’s temporary role as a special government employee has ended. They host a ceremony, and the president makes this grand gesture of gifting Musk a gold key to the White house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have given it to some, but it goes to very special people, and I thought I’d give it to Elon as a presentation from our country. Thank you, Elon. Take care. Thank you \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so this seems pretty cordial to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s like that part of a breakup where you tell people you’re still on good terms and you wish each other the best and you’re going to be in each other’s lives, all that. But like, we know what happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah, we’ve all been there before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, except these are two exceptionally powerful men. So this is where it gets really juicy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, tell me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So a couple of days ago, Musk goes on X and starts tearing apart the bill. He says, hold on, let me pull it up. “This massive, outrageous, pork-filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You KNOW it.” And Trump tells reporters that Musk is upset because the bill would end tax credits for electric vehicles. And then these guys just start going at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, so what happened? Can you break it down for me? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is why I say I will never leave the app, because as bad as it gets, there are still days when everyone comes out of hibernation and just starts posting. And this includes Elon Musk. So he starts firing off at Trump on X. First, he says that Trump would have lost the election without him. Trump goes to Truth Social, and he says Musk went crazy after he was asked to leave the White House. He threatens to cut Musk’s government subsidies and contracts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m guessing Elon Musk didn’t take that well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, not at all. Musk goes nuclear. He runs back to X and posts something that makes everyone’s jaw drop. He claims that the president is in the Epstein files. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So it’s worth noting that Trump was once publicly friends with the pedophile and sex trafficker, Jeffrey Epstein. But he hasn’t been implicated in any of the investigations into Epstein or his accomplices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it can’t get worse than that, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He kept going. In another post, Musk says that the tariffs will cause a recession. And then he reposts someone else who says that Trump should be impeached and replaced with JD Vance. So this is all what people are calling a “generational crash out.” Were you seeing any of this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, Morgan, not the full back and forth. Like I got the condensed version from IG Reels, reacting to them fighting. And I saw some funny responses like when AOC quoted Azealea Banks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reporter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Any quick reaction on what’s going on with Elon Musk and President Trump on Twitter right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh man, the girls are fighting, aren’t they? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the reason I’m still on this hellish app. There were so many good memes about this breakup. Like there’s this one where someone posted a picture of Trump and Musk together and then captioned it with the lyrics from the Bon Iver song, Skinny Love, classic breakup song. We’ve all been there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or someone else posted this edit mashing up a scene from the Diary of a Wimpy Kid Movie, and Driver’s License by Olivia Rodrigo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Diary of a Wimpy Kid Movie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You broke my hand and you didn’t even seem sorry. That broken hand was the best thing that ever happened to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they captioned it, “the two most powerful men in the country on a random Thursday.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s hilarious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll tell you about one example that really sent me. Maya, are you familiar with old man yaoi? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait no, what is that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is one of those very online, deep internet things, so just stay with me here. Old man yaoi is kind of like a jokey fan fiction trope. Yaoi is this Japanese term that refers to gay male relationships in manga and anime. Sometimes it’s called BL, or boy’s love, and people will also tag fan fiction as yaoi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Old man yaoi is this term for older male characters, and naturally, Because the internet is the way it is, there is a lot of tongue-in-cheek old man yaoi about Trump. Wait, really? Last year, there was a lot of enemies-to-lovers old man yaoi about Trump and former President Joe Biden. And now, there is old man yaoi about Trump and Musk. Can I read you an excerpt that I saw on X during the great crash out? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess. I don’t think I have a choice here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sorry, you do not. Okay. So here’s a dramatic reading of some old man yaoi posted by X user. Aegonism. Aegonism, thank you for making my day. “Donald, please, let’s just talk about this,” Elon pleads, attempting to catch the other man’s eyes. But Donald rolls over in bed, presenting his back to him. The tension in the bedroom is suffocating, and Elon tries to take a deep breath, but it feels like he can barely get any air. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There’s nothing to talk about,” Donald finally responds, flatly, and Elon is taken aback by his tone. He sounds so cold and distant. He doesn’t want to fight. He can feel tears welling up and he takes a moment to wipe his face before continuing, hoping Donald won’t notice his red rimmed eyes. “Don, this bill is bad for Tesla. You have to understand that.” Donald sighs heavily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God, I literally have no words. I do admire the creativity though. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, one of the top 10 days on Twitter. This app is terrible, but there’s nothing that’s really taken its place for me. I get a lot of news from Reddit and Bluesky, funny posts from Tumblr, and Instagram is great for organizing and sharing resources, and honestly, good shitpost accounts. TikTok is up there with good content too, but there is nothing that quite has the same real-time, super fast memeability like Twitter does, and you’re definitely not getting the stuff on threads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I feel like I am convinced now. So what are some of the other top meme days on Twitter? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, just a recent years, Luigi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do want to give a credit to Luigi Mangione \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Will Smith Oscar slap. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Rock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Will Smith just smacked the shit out of me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You remember that time that ship got stuck in the Suez Canal? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A giant container ship ran aground in the Suez Canal after losing power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or when President Biden dropped out of the presidential race. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 5: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">President Joe Biden’s decision not to run for re-election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or JD Vance couch rumors, we remember that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Youtuber \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may be wondering why you’re seeing a ton of memes and posts about Donald Trump’s VP pick, JD vance, and his sectional relationship with his couch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do remember that and we did a story about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my personal favorite day is right after the election back in 2020 when Rudy Giuliani hosted a press conference at Four Seasons Total Landscaping instead of the Four Seasons Hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hayes: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, there is, of course, a mystery that hangs over all this, which is how the press conference came to be held at Four Seasons Total Landscaping in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God, yes, I remember this! Okay, so I feel like I kind of get it. It’s the immediacy, right? But let’s get back to the bromance breakup, our Trump and Musk done for good? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, like any good breakup, it’s complicated. Musk actually ended up deleting some of his more incendiary posts, including the one about the Epstein files. Over the weekend, Trump told NBC News that their relationship was over and that he has no desire to repair it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>Ooof. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Classic breakup. But it looks like Elon is the one missing Trump, but Trump is the one over it. And we’re all watching their reality TV show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, exactly. Except, unlike Love Island-. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Love Island: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Love Island! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This reality show also has massive real world ripple effects, which are affecting real people. The state of democracy kind of rests on the whims of these two very powerful, very egotistical guys. But I will say that the tone has changed recently. Musk is screenshotting some of Trump’s Truth Social posts and reposting them on X, appearing to agree with him. So it seems like he’s trying to make amends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think I did see that he was agreeing with Trump’s post condemning the protests against ICE raids in LA. I feel like we should get into that Morgan, right? In a new tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We definitely will. But before we do that, let’s take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. New tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening in LA ?? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so last month we did a two-part episode on the Surveillance State and how protesters and organizers are being identified and targeted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">30-Year-old Rumeysa Ozturk was on her way to break her Ramadan fast when six plain-clothed officers approached her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Morgan, what’s going on where you are in Los Angeles? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you hear any background noise right now, it’s probably the helicopters flying over my apartment. I’m not too far from the protests, and LAPD has been circling over the city all weekend. We’re recording this on Monday evening, and the protests are still going strong. But aside from where those demonstrations are happening, at least in the neighborhood I’m in, LA is unsettlingly quiet. It’s like people are afraid to go outside, especially as ICE continues to patrol the city. But again, this is why I’m still on Twitter. There’s a pretty well-established network of mutual aid groups and organizers sharing resources and information over there. A lot of it is on Instagram, but real-time updates are coming from Twitter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I’m seeing it all over my IG feed as well, but when did this all start? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, it all started with a string of immigration raids on Friday, from a Home Depot to a clothing store downtown. And then people who appeared for their immigration check-ins were detained and taken to unknown locations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FBI, Homeland Security, and ICE agents performed a raid a couple of hours ago. We’re just now seeing some people that are being detained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, Los Angeles is a sanctuary city. City resources cannot be used for federal immigration enforcement, and the city is prohibited from sharing data with immigration authorities. It’s also worth noting that Los Angeles is a city of immigrants, something that a lot of the community takes pride in. So protests started that night, one outside an immigration detention center downtown and another in the fashion district where one of the ICE raids happened. At some point, they converged. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let them free, let them stay! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Law enforcement showed up in riot gear to disperse the crowds. But the protests spread on Saturday across downtown LA, Compton, and Paramount. Trump deployed at least 2,000 National Guard troops in Los Angeles, which Governor Newsom has called unlawful and a serious breach of state sovereignty. Law enforcement has used tear gas and pepper spray and flashbang grenades to try to disperse the crowds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You told me you got caught up in the tear gas as well? Describe what happened to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on the street: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, just, uh, tasted a little tear gas. Tasted like fascism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it all really escalated on Sunday afternoon, which coincided with LA Pride. People were literally going straight from Pride events to the protests, demanding an end to ICE raids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s got the power? We’ve got the power! What kind of power? People Power! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They even managed to shut down the freeway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Weirdo! Weirdos! Weirdo! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the LAPD has deployed rubber bullets and surveillance drones in addition to the tear gas and flashbang grenades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they’re going to push in from this side of the road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s everything with Waymos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, like a few months ago, we did an episode on the recent uptick in Waymo vandalism. And as a reminder, Waymos are the autonomous self-driving cars that operate in a few cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles. But Morgan, why don’t you walk us through what Waymos have to do with the protests? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, a bunch of Waymos happened to be nearby during the protests downtown. And amid the confrontation between law enforcement and protestors, those Waymos were tagged with anti-ICE messages and then set on fire, which went super viral. So there’s been a lot of discourse around Waymo vandalism and property damage during these protests. But I think it’s important to remember that Waymos have become representative of encroaching big tech, especially here in LA. There’s a lot of anger at the way that tech companies like Palantir are helping immigration enforcement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, and plus there’s speculation that Waymos might be used as surveillance tools. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. 404 media recently reported that the LAPD has used footage obtained from a Waymo to investigate crimes. So a lot people are suspicious of autonomous vehicles right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so what else is happening in LA? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, now the latest escalation is that the Trump administration is sending Marines to LA? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I saw that. It really looks like a war zone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, only around certain parts of L.A. But the president is posting through it on Truth Social. He’s called the protests “a riot.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, I haven’t seen any of that because I’m not on Truth Social, but does this bring us back to Elon Musk? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also not on Truth Social, but I did see screenshots on Twitter. And yes, one of the posts that Musk shared on Twitter, or X, calls for a ban on masks at protests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And like we talked about in our surveillance series a few weeks ago, masks have become a staple at protests to avoid facial recognition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That and also to reduce exposure to tear gas, pepper spray, and airborne viruses like COVID. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, but like we’ve seen in the student protests for Palestine over the last year, there’s been an effort to make protesters easier to identify. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. On Truth Social, Trump has also called for the arrest of anyone wearing a mask. So masking has become a real point of contention in these protests as activists demand that ICE agents and LAPD and other law enforcement officials also unmask when showing up to protests. This is a thing in Los Angeles especially. Activists have made an effort to identify ICE agents and publicize their names and faces so that anyone at risk of deportation knows who to avoid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now some conservative lawmakers are trying to penalize anyone who identifies a law enforcement officer. Republican Senator Marsha Blackburn recently proposed legislation that would punish people with up to five years in prison for identifying ICE agents. But, we’ll have to see how the protests unfold throughout the rest of the month. ICE operations in LA are supposed to continue for the next 30 days. But it is worth noting that the president’s social media posts aren’t like legal powers enshrined in the Constitution. They can’t enforce a mask ban just because he posted about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They can’t legally enforce that. But we’ve seen this administration do plenty of things they’re not supposed to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So true. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. Executive orders are quick to enact, and the justice system is really slow. And those things have real consequences for all of us. So, while Twitter memes are a nice distraction, let’s remember how serious this is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. I mean, I’m trying to curb my Twitter addiction, but between the memes and the important protest information, it’s just really hard to leave. Anyway, those were all our updates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for joining, Maya. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anytime Morgan, because I literally work here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaking of protest information, if you do find yourself in a protest zone, stay safe. We’ll leave some links about protecting your digital privacy in the show notes. And it might be worth going back and listening to our two-part series called The Surveillance Machine. We’ll be back next week with part two of our series on Spotify. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager. And Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or drop it on Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>The feud between President Trump and his former adviser Elon Musk ramped up Thursday as the two lashed out at each other on social media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk — who for days has been blasting a GOP megabill advancing most of Trump’s biggest domestic policy priorities — said that Trump \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1930667528696828120\">would have lost the election\u003c/a> without his support, and called him ungrateful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then \u003ca href=\"https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114632206992330264\">Trump posted\u003c/a> that “the easiest way” to save billions of dollars of government spending would be to “terminate Elon’s governmental subsidies and contracts.” Musk is the CEO of companies that make electric cars and rockets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk, in turn, posted that Trump hadn’t released all the records around sex offender Jeffrey Epstein because — according to Musk — Trump himself is implicated in those files. Musk did not provide any evidence of this, and Musk has in the past accused people of sex crimes without evidence. The White House had no immediate comment on Musk’s post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The public feud seemed to drive a stake through what had been a big-money political bromance. Musk, who spent close to $300 million to elect Trump and became one of his closest advisers before leaving the administration last week, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1930685402631053403\">suggested it was time to start a new political party\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Trump was asked about Musk’s criticism of the megabill at the White House\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The sniping was sparked by comments Trump made in the Oval Office earlier in the day when asked about Musk’s criticism of the tax and spending bill. Trump said he was surprised that Musk had been scorching the package, but said he thought Musk was wrong and conflicted in his criticism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Elon and I had a great relationship. I don’t know if we will anymore,” Trump told reporters in the Oval Office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12037319 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2207057172-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’s worn that hat, ‘Trump was right about everything’ — and I am right about the great big, beautiful, bill,” Trump said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said Musk “knew the inner workings of this bill better than almost anybody” and “never had a problem until right after he left.” On X, Musk quickly countered, claiming “this bill was never shown to me even once.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk, who for months led the administration’s government-slashing unit, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/03/nx-s1-5422350/elon-musk-trump-reconciliation-bill\">called the bill “pork-filled” and a “disgusting abomination.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the entire history of civilization, there has never been legislation that both big and beautiful,” Musk posted Thursday. “Everyone knows this! Either you get a big and ugly bill or a slim and beautiful bill. Slim and beautiful is the way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump said he thought Musk was upset because \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/03/nx-s1-5414604/ev-tax-credits-republican-bill\">the bill proposes to cut subsidies for electric vehicles\u003c/a>, a policy that would affect his company Tesla, and because Trump \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/01/nx-s1-5419455/trump-withdraws-nasa-nominee-musk\">pulled his nominee for NASA\u003c/a> on Saturday. That pick, Jared Isaacman, had been recommended by Musk, and the nomination had cleared committee and was awaiting Senate confirmation. Isaacman is a friend of Musk, and his online payment company, Shift 4, has financial ties to SpaceX. On Thursday, Trump suggested he didn’t think the relationship “was appropriate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He noted that Musk had only had positive things to say upon \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/05/30/nx-s1-5415641/musk-leaves-doge-what-comes-next\">leaving the Oval Office last week\u003c/a>. “You saw a man who was very happy when he stood behind the Oval desk. And even with the black eye — I said, ‘You want a little makeup? We’ll get you there to make up,’ but he said, ‘No, I don’t think so.’ Which is interesting and very nice. He wants to be who he is,” Trump said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump said he thought that Musk missed being part of the action at the White House, and said he was similar to other former staffers who leave to become critics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They leave, and they wake up in the morning, and the glamor is gone. The whole world is different, and they become hostile, I don’t know what it is,” Trump said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later, on his Truth Social social media platform, Trump sharpened his attack on Musk: “Elon was ‘wearing thin,’ I asked him to leave, I took away his EV mandate … and he just went CRAZY,” \u003ca href=\"https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114632205177163456\">Trump posted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Danielle Kurtzleben contributed to this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk, in turn, posted that Trump hadn’t released all the records around sex offender Jeffrey Epstein because — according to Musk — Trump himself is implicated in those files. Musk did not provide any evidence of this, and Musk has in the past accused people of sex crimes without evidence. The White House had no immediate comment on Musk’s post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The public feud seemed to drive a stake through what had been a big-money political bromance. Musk, who spent close to $300 million to elect Trump and became one of his closest advisers before leaving the administration last week, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1930685402631053403\">suggested it was time to start a new political party\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Trump was asked about Musk’s criticism of the megabill at the White House\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The sniping was sparked by comments Trump made in the Oval Office earlier in the day when asked about Musk’s criticism of the tax and spending bill. Trump said he was surprised that Musk had been scorching the package, but said he thought Musk was wrong and conflicted in his criticism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Elon and I had a great relationship. I don’t know if we will anymore,” Trump told reporters in the Oval Office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’s worn that hat, ‘Trump was right about everything’ — and I am right about the great big, beautiful, bill,” Trump said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said Musk “knew the inner workings of this bill better than almost anybody” and “never had a problem until right after he left.” On X, Musk quickly countered, claiming “this bill was never shown to me even once.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Musk, who for months led the administration’s government-slashing unit, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/03/nx-s1-5422350/elon-musk-trump-reconciliation-bill\">called the bill “pork-filled” and a “disgusting abomination.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the entire history of civilization, there has never been legislation that both big and beautiful,” Musk posted Thursday. “Everyone knows this! Either you get a big and ugly bill or a slim and beautiful bill. Slim and beautiful is the way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump said he thought Musk was upset because \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/03/nx-s1-5414604/ev-tax-credits-republican-bill\">the bill proposes to cut subsidies for electric vehicles\u003c/a>, a policy that would affect his company Tesla, and because Trump \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/06/01/nx-s1-5419455/trump-withdraws-nasa-nominee-musk\">pulled his nominee for NASA\u003c/a> on Saturday. That pick, Jared Isaacman, had been recommended by Musk, and the nomination had cleared committee and was awaiting Senate confirmation. Isaacman is a friend of Musk, and his online payment company, Shift 4, has financial ties to SpaceX. On Thursday, Trump suggested he didn’t think the relationship “was appropriate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He noted that Musk had only had positive things to say upon \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/05/30/nx-s1-5415641/musk-leaves-doge-what-comes-next\">leaving the Oval Office last week\u003c/a>. “You saw a man who was very happy when he stood behind the Oval desk. And even with the black eye — I said, ‘You want a little makeup? We’ll get you there to make up,’ but he said, ‘No, I don’t think so.’ Which is interesting and very nice. He wants to be who he is,” Trump said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trump said he thought that Musk missed being part of the action at the White House, and said he was similar to other former staffers who leave to become critics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They leave, and they wake up in the morning, and the glamor is gone. The whole world is different, and they become hostile, I don’t know what it is,” Trump said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later, on his Truth Social social media platform, Trump sharpened his attack on Musk: “Elon was ‘wearing thin,’ I asked him to leave, I took away his EV mandate … and he just went CRAZY,” \u003ca href=\"https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114632205177163456\">Trump posted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Danielle Kurtzleben contributed to this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Do You Hear What I Hear? Audio Illusions and Misinformation",
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"headTitle": "Do You Hear What I Hear? Audio Illusions and Misinformation | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you old enough to remember the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/the-hidden-history-of-magic-eye-the-optical-illusion-that-briefly-took-over-the-world/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Magic Eye” optical illusion mania\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> that gripped the nation in the 90’s—random patterns that you had to squint at just right for the 3D image to pop out? It turns out it’s not just our eyes that can be fooled. Our \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ears\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> can play tricks on us too. There’s a whole world of auditory illusions that seem to say one thing when they’re really saying something else, and that matters, especially in our age of digital misinformation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, Morgan talks to KQED Digital Community Producer Francesca Fenzi about why we hear what we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">think \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">we hear, and how understanding the limits of our perception might actually make us better at spotting dis- and misinformation online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7508034216\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guest:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Francesa Fenzi, KQED Digital Community Producer \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My colleague \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Francesca Fenzi\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, digital community producer at KQED, spends a lot of time online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m on KQED’s Discord server, on Reddit, all the various chat threads and usual places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After President Trump was sworn into office earlier this year, she noticed a new wave of viral content about him and his administration. There were clips claiming all kinds of things. One of these viral clips shows Musk and his son, X, during a visit to the White House. X was four at the time. While Musk speaks to the press, X runs around the Oval Office and makes his way the president’s desk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At one point, he peels off and he makes a side comment to President Trump. This is all happening while Elon Musk is speaking, so it’s very hard to hear what he’s saying. But a lot of people started interpreting what the boy was saying as saying, “You’re not the president and you need to go away,” to Donald Trump. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elon Musk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Part of the presidency is to restore, is to restore democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, X is very young. This was a four-year-old babbling at the president. Another moment from the same meeting seems to show X telling the president to, “shush his mouth.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elon Musk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taxes from one year to the next are the same. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did watch this clip. It does seem like he might have said something like this, but my audio producer brain also lit up right away because I can tell you that that clip was not clear. It was not the kind of thing that you can clean up in post. So when people started quoting this as fact, as something that was happening, my interest was piqued. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The whole thing set Francesca down a research rabbit hole, which — relatable. This clip felt different from other pieces of viral misinformation she’d seen online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been really focused on AI’s potential to spread false information and how it can trick people into believing things that never actually happened. But even without AI, our senses can be fooled the old fashioned way. And what I was interested in in this situation was just trying to understand how our brains process what we see and hear and how those senses can be manipulated, not by AI, but just by old fashioned audio and video tricks. And so my research spiral, led me to this whole world of auditory illusions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Remember those Magic Eye posters? They were those optical illusions that looked like random patterns until you unfocused your eyes just right and a hidden image popped out. Well, it turns out it’s not just our eyes that can be fooled. Our ears can play tricks on us too. There’s a whole world of auditory illusions that seem to say one thing when they’re really saying something else. And that matters, especially in an age of misinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re looking at some phenomena that can completely change what we think we hear. And we explore how understanding the limits of our perception might actually make us better at spotting disinformation online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so we’re gonna start with something that feels super commonplace, but might not be as reliable as we think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. Can we trust lip reading? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so in this video with Elon Musk’s son and President Trump, a lot of people were really relying on a combination of very poor audio and lip reading to decipher what he was saying. So let’s start with lip reading. Francesca, how reliable is it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s estimated that only 30 to 40% of speech can actually be lip read, and that’s even under the best conditions. Lip reading is a really useful tool for people who are hard of hearing because it helps to piece together context around other pieces of information, right? Like partial audio or even like hand movements in sign language. So some lip readings seem really good when we think that we have the context associated with them. One example of that is there’s a TikTok creator who I really like, her handle is “It’s Jackie G”, and she interprets celebrity red carpet moments. So she’ll take moments of celebrities being recorded and will lip read the conversation that’s too far away from the camera for us to be able to hear accurately. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Jackie G, lip reading Zendaya at this year’s Met Gala. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie G: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s so fab. So fabulous. I love it. It’s so funny because she’s, I would say when we, when it cuts off. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reason that those work is because as a fan of a certain kind of celebrity, you are probably a little bit aware of how they feel about the movie that they’re promoting or their relationship to other stars who they might be interacting with, and they seem really plausible because of that. But the more removed lip reading is from its context, the less you understand about the true nature of the relationship of the speakers, the more likely you are to be misled. That’s part of what makes the YouTube series Bad Lip Reading so possible and successful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bad Lip Reading is a YouTube channel that intentionally misinterprets what people are saying in movies or TV shows and then voices them over. Like this scene from Star Wars, a conversation between Obi-Wan Kenobi and some stormtroopers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Stormtrooper: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey guys, we’re collecting donations for the Jawa Orphanage. Do you have any spare change? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Obi-Wan Kenobi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, you should know that you stink kinda like fish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Stormtrooper: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, what? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Obi-Wan Kenobi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone knows it except for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re removing context from the audio that you’re hearing and you’re replacing the story with sound that maybe mirrors some lip movements but is totally nonsensical to the scenario. And that’s the source of the humor in those videos. I spoke to Nicholas Davidenko, who’s a researcher at the High Level Perceptions Lab at UC Santa Cruz. He studies auditory illusions and I asked him why bad lip reading videos look so convincing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicolas Davidenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reason they work so well is because lip reading is a much more ambiguous cue. So there’s actually a lot of words that could fit the shapes of my lips as I talk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Davidenko studies this type of phenomena in his lab. He’s been researching how to help people with something called misophonia. That is when you have an extreme negative reaction to certain sounds. There’s some sounds that all of us find a little bit unpleasant, but these are folks who have a really extreme triggered reaction to sounds like chewing or teeth mashing. Those are some common ones. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Davidenko found that you can actually pair a different kind of video with the audio that would normally trigger misophonia for somebody. So for example, if the sound that triggers you is that sound of chewing, you can replace an image of somebody chewing with another plausible sound source. In his lab, they use an example of somebody stepping on leaves to kind of mimic that crunching sound that might originate with chewing on food. And by swapping that image out, people start to interpret that sound differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicolas Davidenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If the visual signal is telling you something, you trust it more than the auditory signal and when there’s a conflict, you tend to go with whatever visual system is telling you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. So the thing we’re seeing with our eyes is overruling what we’re hearing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s because of something called the McGurk Effect. There was this famous study in 1976, McGurk and McDonald, and what they found was that what we see can actually change what we can hear. In fact, I’m gonna demonstrate. Can I play you a video, Morgan? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Please do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going to play you clip, and in this first one, I just want to hear what sound you hear. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>McGurk Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bah bah bah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a close-up of a person’s mouth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>McGurk Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bah bah bah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so I’m hearing bah with a B, like baby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah, that’s right. Okay, so now I’m gonna play you a different clip and tell me this time what you hear. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>McGurk Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bah, bah, bah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, now I’m hearing fa, like with an F, like fabulous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. So it’s actually the exact same audio. So if you were listening and you heard exactly the same thing both times, you’re not crazy. Morgan’s being tricked. The audio… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s crazy, right? It happened to me too the first time I watched this. The audio is actually exactly the same, but what listeners aren’t getting in this case that you are is the lip motion is different from one to the next, and that’s actually changing the that you’re hearing the audio. So when you see that B shape being made with the mouth, you hear “ba,” and when you see that F shape being with the mouth, you’re actually hearing it like “fa.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, like I saw the person’s bottom lip hit their teeth. It’s like, yeah, that’s an F shape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the effect that bad lip readings take advantage of, is they’re taking those lip shapes with plausible sounds and they’re kind of swapping them for things that are similar phonetically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So experiencing the McGurk effect in a bad lip reading video is pretty funny, but I can imagine that if this falls into the wrong hands it can go very poorly? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure. Something else that Davidenko explained is that we can be misled by someone telling us what to hear or see ahead of time. That’s kind of playing into this idea that contextualizing those clips changed the way we hear it too. So it’s not just the McGurk effect, it’s also the expectation we have coming into a video. In this case, Davidenko also worked on an experiment in his lab called Mind Controlled Motion. That is how he named it, Mind Controlled Motion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that experiment, what researchers did is they showed people a set of randomly refreshing images that were just pixels on a screen. So they’re just truly randomly refreshing pixels popping up and disappearing. There’s no logical motion behind them. But when researchers said something like, “left, right, left, right,” or “up, down, up, down,” over and over, when people viewed these images, then people were actually seeing the motion that they were told to see. And he said that there was a 90% compliance rate, meaning like 90% of the people who watched these and got those prompts saw the motion that they are being told to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this really makes me think of those like kind of rage bait body language reading videos that we always see online. Like an infamous example is Couch Guy, where a girl walked into her long distance boyfriend’s apartment and he just didn’t seem as excited to see her as people thought he should have been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Couch Guy Commenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, there his arm goes to the side of his pants, grabs his phone from old girl, acts like he’s laughing to pull it up through the middle and then boop, there went her hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And some people were like, no, that’s a totally normal reaction. Like, look at his body language. He’s just surprised. Well, as other people were, like, this is, like he hates her. Look at his, body language. Does this explain, like why people see completely different things in the same viral videos? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It doesn’t have to be a deep fake to be misleading. It can be a real situation that really happened. But how something is presented has a lot to do with influencing our perception of the relationship of the before and after that surround that moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so when I’m watching something and also listening to it at the same time, it’s like, “yeah, my eyes can deceive me,” but at least audio on its own is safe, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, unfortunately, not exactly. Morgan, do you remember the whole Laurel, Yanny thing that broke the internet a few years ago? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels like a lifetime ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it was like the dress, but for your ears. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we’re going to hear about that after this break. Okay, welcome back. Time to open a new tab. Can people hear different things in the same audio? So I remember this whole Laurel versus Yanny thing back in 2018, feels like forever ago in internet time. So can you remind us what it was all about? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so this actually started with a group of high school students who were studying vocabulary words for their English class. They were on vocabulary.com and they were sending recordings of different words to each other on Instagram and they discovered that when they recorded one word, they were hearing totally different things one person to the next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people were hearing the word Laurel and others were hearing the word Yanny, which are so different that it kind of kicked off this debate in their friend group. And then eventually someone posted to Reddit and Stranger started weighing in as well. And it became this divisive litmus test of sorts where people were hearing either Laurel or Yanny and then being fiercely adamant that it was not the other. Actually, I’m gonna play the clip for you now. I wanna hear what you hear in this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel vs Yanny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laurel, laurel laurel, laurel, laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what’s crazy? When I first heard this, um, what was this, like seven years ago in 2018, I swore it was saying Yanny. And now… I’m hearing Laurel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I think I may have an explanation for that. I hear Laurel too, and the unflattering reason behind that, or one of the theories, is that it may be related to our age. So I hate to tell you, but I think you’ve arrived in Millennialville. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s time. It’s coming for us all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when this was first circulating, the New York Times and Wired and a bunch of other news outlets took it super seriously getting to the bottom of what was happening. And the New York Times actually created this tool to help people hear both sides. So if you only heard one or the other in this clip, I can play a clip of audio that shows you what it should sound like moving from the Laurel to Yanny spectrum. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel vs Yanny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laurel, laurel, laurel, laurel, yanny, yanny, yanny, yanny, yanny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I was hearing like hints of Yanny. It was so weird. It was like my brain was fighting the Yanny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it feels like it’s like fighting to come to the surface. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But eventually like it kicks over. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly! So there’s some actual science behind why some people hear Laurel and others hear Yanny, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, so it’s still hard to know for sure what caused it, but there’s a prevailing theory and essentially two things are what people think is happening in this clip. One is that the recording of the recording has added and introduced new frequencies to the audio. So remember, these were high school kids who were recording a clip played from online of a vocab word. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The original word is Laurel. So if that’s what you heard, you were correct. But when Laurel was recorded through computer speakers into a phone and then sent across the internet, it introduced some additional frequencies to the audio. And our brains are choosing which of those frequencies to prioritize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is where the age part comes in. Older people tend to hear lower frequencies and less of the high frequencies. And then younger listeners, they have a broader range of those high frequencies available to them. So the theory is that if you hear Laurel, you’re probably prioritizing those lower frequencies, and if you hear Yanny, your brain is prioritizing those higher frequencies. And younger people may be more inclined to prioritize those because they can actually hear more of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My God. Sorry, I’m still coming to terms with my ancient, decrepit ears. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. It’s the worst. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So are there any bigger implications for this phenomenon or is it just like an oddity of the digital age? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it means that there’s just more opportunity for ambiguity and misinterpretation. We’re listening to audio, if you think about it, in all these different forms all the time now, we’re playing them through computer speakers, from our phone speakers on crowded busses, in our car stereos, which means that there’s a lot of opportunity for us to hear things differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So is this why I sometimes miss your song lyrics? Like I swore, god, back in the day, Taylor Swift’s Blank Space. I swore she was saying “Starbucks lovers.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Swift: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got a long list of ex-lovers. They’ll tell… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, that is a common one. The actual lyric is “long list of ex-lovers,” but I get why people hear that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here I am, like, I knew it was the wrong lyric, and for the last, I don’t know, 10 years, I’ve just been like, “I don’t need to learn it, it’s Starbucks lovers.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that’s actually a different phenomena, but just as fascinating. It turns out our brains do make up words that aren’t there. And that’s what’s happening when you’re listening to song lyrics sometimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s hear about that, in a new tab. Can my brain make up words that aren’t there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re definitely not the only person this happens to. I actually went around and I asked our colleagues about some of the songs that they’ve misheard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susie Britton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brother and I, when we were little, used to play what we called the wrong song game. One that I remember was Bonnie Tyler’s It’s a Heartache.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bonnie Tyler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a heartache\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susie Britton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we heard that as, it’s a hard egg.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Nieto: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I learned this very, very late in life, which I’m embarrassed to admit, but yeah, the song lyric is “revved up like a deuce” from Blinded by the Light by Manfred Mann.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manfred Mann: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blinded by the light. Revved up like a deuce another runner in the night.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Nieto: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the vast majority of my life, I thought it was “wrapped up like a douche.” And I know I’m not the only one because if you Google that lyric, you get a ton of hits for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beat It by Michael Jackson, I always thought was, “beat it, just beat it. You don’t wanna beat it beat it”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Jackson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beat it, beat it, no one wants to be defeated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s actually, “no one wants to be defeated.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Chappell Roan’s song, Hot to Go, was really popular.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chappell Roan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H-O-T-T-O-G-O You can take me hot to go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My then five-year-old loved that song, would always sing along to it, and then one time I was singing along to, and I said, “hot to go,” and she was like, Mom, that’s wrong, it’s “out to go.” She wasn’t catching on to the spelling, so she was just like, “you’re wrong, it’s out to, do it right.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bryan Vo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Growing up, one of the childhood bangers was T-Pain Buy You a Drink. I saw a T-pain tweet about it in like 2017. And then I found out that instead of just harmonizing random lyrics, “ooh wee.” It was actually “and then.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, what?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bryan Vo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly what?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m glad I’m not the only one. So is there a name for this phenomenon, too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Very perceptive. I feel like you’re getting the hang of this. It’s called the Mondegreen effect. And that’s when you mishear phrases or words and so assign them a new meaning. Sometimes it’s hearing words that you do know, but in an order that’s not what was actually being said, like Starbucks lovers, like those are real words. And then sometimes it’s just inventing a totally new word, which is what happens to me the most. I just make up a new thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, this is most common with song lyrics, and it comes from the mid-century American writer, Sylvia Wright. She coined this term based on her childhood. She remembered mis-hearing the line in a Scottish ballad called The Bonnie Earl O’ Moray. And there’s a line in the song that goes, “laid him on the green,” which she interpreted as Lady Mondegreen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Bonnie Earl O’ Moray: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh where have ye been, they slain The Earl O’ Moray, and laid him on the green.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is another really common way that we do this is we just make up formal nouns or things that feel like names when we don’t really know what’s being said. So Morgan, researching the Mondegreen effect actually led me to researcher Diana Deutsch. She is at Stanford and UC San Diego, and she is like the audio illusion researcher. Been doing this for decades. She discovered that when you take two audio sources, and you play the same word or syllable slightly out of sync, after about 10 seconds of listening, people start to invent phantom words in that overlap. They start to hear different things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, here’s a clip from one of these audio experiments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Auditory Illusion: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WELWELWELLWEL WEL WELL WELLWELL WEL\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even with the same audio, the phantom words that they’re hearing are often unique to the listener. So here’s Diana listing some of the words that people have reported hearing in the same piece of audio.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Diana Deustch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Window, welcome, love me, run away, no brain, rainbow, raincoat, bueno, nombre, when oh when, mango, window pane, broadway, even rogain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is fascinating. So why would people hear totally different phantom words in the same audio?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is similar to something called periodolia, where people perceive familiar patterns in random or ambiguous stimuli. This happens a lot with visual things. So like seeing a face on the moon or Jesus in a flower tortilla. It turns out that that can happen with audio too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Diana Deustch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally people hear words or phrases that refer to things that are on their mind. So for example, if someone’s on a diet, they might hear the phrase, “feel fat.” And it often happens when I present these to a group of students close to exam time, they’ll hear things like “no brain.” So these illusions show that when people believe that they’re hearing meaningful messages from the outside world, their brains are actively reconstructing sounds that make sense to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Diana says that the patterns we hear are influenced by things like our mood, what we’ve thought about or discussed that day, whether we’re tired or sad or scared. We assign meaning to sounds based on our internal narratives. For example, that’s part of what might be going on when people report hearing electronic voice phenomena in ghost hunting. Being scared or heightened or thinking about ghosts may lead you to hear certain phrases in ambiguous audio.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ghost Hunters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s amazing. Strange, right? How it says- Goose bumps up my spine. Clearly a voice. I hear something negative, like no or don’t.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Diana actually told me that one thing that’s quite common is for people who have recently experienced a loss, they’re more likely in their day-to-day lives to hear what sounds like words or phrases or even voices associated with their lost loved one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier, you mentioned that having less information, like audio without visual cues, makes us more likely to assign new meaning to what we hear. So let’s bring this full circle. So after all of this research, what would you tell someone who’s absolutely convinced that they know what Elon Musk’s son said in that clip?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I would say that that probably says more about you and how you feel about Elon Musk or President Trump than necessarily what the three people in that audio clip were saying. It doesn’t mean that you’re wrong. It’s just that we don’t know. There’s no way to really hear truth in an audio clip that convoluted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what are some of the ways bad actors can purposely take advantage of how suggestible our senses and our brains are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that the easiest way to be manipulated is when somebody is taking a clip or a small snippet of something and then abbreviating the context and telling you what goes before and after. And social media is designed in this way to give us bite-sized samples of the world. But when you’re taking just a bite, it means that you might be missing the whole meal around it, and you might get the flavors wrong. And you might kinda misunderstand what’s being served to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How can understanding all of this brain trickery help us spot actual misinformation?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s the ultimate question, right? We can’t trust our eyes, we can’t trust our ears, we can’t trust AI. I think that the real takeaway, I guess, that I have after this research spiral is trust but verify. Double check your own thinking when you’re encountering one of these clips online. Is it too good to be true? Maybe it takes a little extra Googling to see if you can get to the bottom of it. And maybe, I guess another takeaway I would have is being okay with a little bit of ambiguity. Sometimes there are mysteries that Google can’t answer for us. Just like the answer of what was really said in the White House in that moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No amount of Reddit threads can do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But knowing that there are unknowns, I feel like being aware that people claiming to have a definitive answer might not be telling the truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well Francesca, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for telling us all about, I don’t know, these crazy auditory illusions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me, Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Voices from KQED staff in this episode included Susie Britton, Mark Nieto, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Brian Vo, and Blanca Torres. Francesca runs KQED’s Discord server and Close All Tabs has its own channel. Come say hi, share your thoughts, and chat with other listeners about the show. Join us at discord.gg/KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard and Katherine Monahan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the kqed podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org, follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, and if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Do You Hear What I Hear? Audio Illusions and Misinformation | KQED",
"description": "Are you old enough to remember the “Magic Eye” optical illusion mania that gripped the nation in the 90’s—random patterns that you had to squint at just right for the 3D image to pop out? It turns out it's not just our eyes that can be fooled. Our ears can play tricks on us too. There's a whole world of auditory illusions that seem to say one thing when they're really saying something else, and that matters, especially in our age of digital misinformation. In today’s episode, Morgan talks to KQED Digital Community Producer Francesca Fenzi about why we hear what we think we hear, and how understanding the limits of our perception might actually make us better at spotting dis- and misinformation online.",
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"socialDescription": "Are you old enough to remember the “Magic Eye” optical illusion mania that gripped the nation in the 90’s—random patterns that you had to squint at just right for the 3D image to pop out? It turns out it's not just our eyes that can be fooled. Our ears can play tricks on us too. There's a whole world of auditory illusions that seem to say one thing when they're really saying something else, and that matters, especially in our age of digital misinformation. In today’s episode, Morgan talks to KQED Digital Community Producer Francesca Fenzi about why we hear what we think we hear, and how understanding the limits of our perception might actually make us better at spotting dis- and misinformation online.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you old enough to remember the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/the-hidden-history-of-magic-eye-the-optical-illusion-that-briefly-took-over-the-world/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Magic Eye” optical illusion mania\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> that gripped the nation in the 90’s—random patterns that you had to squint at just right for the 3D image to pop out? It turns out it’s not just our eyes that can be fooled. Our \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ears\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> can play tricks on us too. There’s a whole world of auditory illusions that seem to say one thing when they’re really saying something else, and that matters, especially in our age of digital misinformation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, Morgan talks to KQED Digital Community Producer Francesca Fenzi about why we hear what we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">think \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">we hear, and how understanding the limits of our perception might actually make us better at spotting dis- and misinformation online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7508034216\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guest:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Francesa Fenzi, KQED Digital Community Producer \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My colleague \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Francesca Fenzi\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, digital community producer at KQED, spends a lot of time online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m on KQED’s Discord server, on Reddit, all the various chat threads and usual places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After President Trump was sworn into office earlier this year, she noticed a new wave of viral content about him and his administration. There were clips claiming all kinds of things. One of these viral clips shows Musk and his son, X, during a visit to the White House. X was four at the time. While Musk speaks to the press, X runs around the Oval Office and makes his way the president’s desk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At one point, he peels off and he makes a side comment to President Trump. This is all happening while Elon Musk is speaking, so it’s very hard to hear what he’s saying. But a lot of people started interpreting what the boy was saying as saying, “You’re not the president and you need to go away,” to Donald Trump. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elon Musk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Part of the presidency is to restore, is to restore democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, X is very young. This was a four-year-old babbling at the president. Another moment from the same meeting seems to show X telling the president to, “shush his mouth.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elon Musk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taxes from one year to the next are the same. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did watch this clip. It does seem like he might have said something like this, but my audio producer brain also lit up right away because I can tell you that that clip was not clear. It was not the kind of thing that you can clean up in post. So when people started quoting this as fact, as something that was happening, my interest was piqued. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The whole thing set Francesca down a research rabbit hole, which — relatable. This clip felt different from other pieces of viral misinformation she’d seen online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been really focused on AI’s potential to spread false information and how it can trick people into believing things that never actually happened. But even without AI, our senses can be fooled the old fashioned way. And what I was interested in in this situation was just trying to understand how our brains process what we see and hear and how those senses can be manipulated, not by AI, but just by old fashioned audio and video tricks. And so my research spiral, led me to this whole world of auditory illusions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Remember those Magic Eye posters? They were those optical illusions that looked like random patterns until you unfocused your eyes just right and a hidden image popped out. Well, it turns out it’s not just our eyes that can be fooled. Our ears can play tricks on us too. There’s a whole world of auditory illusions that seem to say one thing when they’re really saying something else. And that matters, especially in an age of misinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re looking at some phenomena that can completely change what we think we hear. And we explore how understanding the limits of our perception might actually make us better at spotting disinformation online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so we’re gonna start with something that feels super commonplace, but might not be as reliable as we think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. Can we trust lip reading? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so in this video with Elon Musk’s son and President Trump, a lot of people were really relying on a combination of very poor audio and lip reading to decipher what he was saying. So let’s start with lip reading. Francesca, how reliable is it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s estimated that only 30 to 40% of speech can actually be lip read, and that’s even under the best conditions. Lip reading is a really useful tool for people who are hard of hearing because it helps to piece together context around other pieces of information, right? Like partial audio or even like hand movements in sign language. So some lip readings seem really good when we think that we have the context associated with them. One example of that is there’s a TikTok creator who I really like, her handle is “It’s Jackie G”, and she interprets celebrity red carpet moments. So she’ll take moments of celebrities being recorded and will lip read the conversation that’s too far away from the camera for us to be able to hear accurately. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Jackie G, lip reading Zendaya at this year’s Met Gala. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie G: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s so fab. So fabulous. I love it. It’s so funny because she’s, I would say when we, when it cuts off. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reason that those work is because as a fan of a certain kind of celebrity, you are probably a little bit aware of how they feel about the movie that they’re promoting or their relationship to other stars who they might be interacting with, and they seem really plausible because of that. But the more removed lip reading is from its context, the less you understand about the true nature of the relationship of the speakers, the more likely you are to be misled. That’s part of what makes the YouTube series Bad Lip Reading so possible and successful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bad Lip Reading is a YouTube channel that intentionally misinterprets what people are saying in movies or TV shows and then voices them over. Like this scene from Star Wars, a conversation between Obi-Wan Kenobi and some stormtroopers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Stormtrooper: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey guys, we’re collecting donations for the Jawa Orphanage. Do you have any spare change? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Obi-Wan Kenobi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, you should know that you stink kinda like fish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Stormtrooper: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, what? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Obi-Wan Kenobi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Everyone knows it except for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re removing context from the audio that you’re hearing and you’re replacing the story with sound that maybe mirrors some lip movements but is totally nonsensical to the scenario. And that’s the source of the humor in those videos. I spoke to Nicholas Davidenko, who’s a researcher at the High Level Perceptions Lab at UC Santa Cruz. He studies auditory illusions and I asked him why bad lip reading videos look so convincing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicolas Davidenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reason they work so well is because lip reading is a much more ambiguous cue. So there’s actually a lot of words that could fit the shapes of my lips as I talk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Davidenko studies this type of phenomena in his lab. He’s been researching how to help people with something called misophonia. That is when you have an extreme negative reaction to certain sounds. There’s some sounds that all of us find a little bit unpleasant, but these are folks who have a really extreme triggered reaction to sounds like chewing or teeth mashing. Those are some common ones. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Davidenko found that you can actually pair a different kind of video with the audio that would normally trigger misophonia for somebody. So for example, if the sound that triggers you is that sound of chewing, you can replace an image of somebody chewing with another plausible sound source. In his lab, they use an example of somebody stepping on leaves to kind of mimic that crunching sound that might originate with chewing on food. And by swapping that image out, people start to interpret that sound differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicolas Davidenko: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If the visual signal is telling you something, you trust it more than the auditory signal and when there’s a conflict, you tend to go with whatever visual system is telling you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. So the thing we’re seeing with our eyes is overruling what we’re hearing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s because of something called the McGurk Effect. There was this famous study in 1976, McGurk and McDonald, and what they found was that what we see can actually change what we can hear. In fact, I’m gonna demonstrate. Can I play you a video, Morgan? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Please do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going to play you clip, and in this first one, I just want to hear what sound you hear. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>McGurk Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bah bah bah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a close-up of a person’s mouth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>McGurk Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bah bah bah \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so I’m hearing bah with a B, like baby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah, that’s right. Okay, so now I’m gonna play you a different clip and tell me this time what you hear. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>McGurk Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bah, bah, bah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, now I’m hearing fa, like with an F, like fabulous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. So it’s actually the exact same audio. So if you were listening and you heard exactly the same thing both times, you’re not crazy. Morgan’s being tricked. The audio… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is wild. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s crazy, right? It happened to me too the first time I watched this. The audio is actually exactly the same, but what listeners aren’t getting in this case that you are is the lip motion is different from one to the next, and that’s actually changing the that you’re hearing the audio. So when you see that B shape being made with the mouth, you hear “ba,” and when you see that F shape being with the mouth, you’re actually hearing it like “fa.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, like I saw the person’s bottom lip hit their teeth. It’s like, yeah, that’s an F shape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s the effect that bad lip readings take advantage of, is they’re taking those lip shapes with plausible sounds and they’re kind of swapping them for things that are similar phonetically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So experiencing the McGurk effect in a bad lip reading video is pretty funny, but I can imagine that if this falls into the wrong hands it can go very poorly? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For sure. Something else that Davidenko explained is that we can be misled by someone telling us what to hear or see ahead of time. That’s kind of playing into this idea that contextualizing those clips changed the way we hear it too. So it’s not just the McGurk effect, it’s also the expectation we have coming into a video. In this case, Davidenko also worked on an experiment in his lab called Mind Controlled Motion. That is how he named it, Mind Controlled Motion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that experiment, what researchers did is they showed people a set of randomly refreshing images that were just pixels on a screen. So they’re just truly randomly refreshing pixels popping up and disappearing. There’s no logical motion behind them. But when researchers said something like, “left, right, left, right,” or “up, down, up, down,” over and over, when people viewed these images, then people were actually seeing the motion that they were told to see. And he said that there was a 90% compliance rate, meaning like 90% of the people who watched these and got those prompts saw the motion that they are being told to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this really makes me think of those like kind of rage bait body language reading videos that we always see online. Like an infamous example is Couch Guy, where a girl walked into her long distance boyfriend’s apartment and he just didn’t seem as excited to see her as people thought he should have been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Couch Guy Commenter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, there his arm goes to the side of his pants, grabs his phone from old girl, acts like he’s laughing to pull it up through the middle and then boop, there went her hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And some people were like, no, that’s a totally normal reaction. Like, look at his body language. He’s just surprised. Well, as other people were, like, this is, like he hates her. Look at his, body language. Does this explain, like why people see completely different things in the same viral videos? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It doesn’t have to be a deep fake to be misleading. It can be a real situation that really happened. But how something is presented has a lot to do with influencing our perception of the relationship of the before and after that surround that moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so when I’m watching something and also listening to it at the same time, it’s like, “yeah, my eyes can deceive me,” but at least audio on its own is safe, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, unfortunately, not exactly. Morgan, do you remember the whole Laurel, Yanny thing that broke the internet a few years ago? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It feels like a lifetime ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it was like the dress, but for your ears. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we’re going to hear about that after this break. Okay, welcome back. Time to open a new tab. Can people hear different things in the same audio? So I remember this whole Laurel versus Yanny thing back in 2018, feels like forever ago in internet time. So can you remind us what it was all about? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so this actually started with a group of high school students who were studying vocabulary words for their English class. They were on vocabulary.com and they were sending recordings of different words to each other on Instagram and they discovered that when they recorded one word, they were hearing totally different things one person to the next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people were hearing the word Laurel and others were hearing the word Yanny, which are so different that it kind of kicked off this debate in their friend group. And then eventually someone posted to Reddit and Stranger started weighing in as well. And it became this divisive litmus test of sorts where people were hearing either Laurel or Yanny and then being fiercely adamant that it was not the other. Actually, I’m gonna play the clip for you now. I wanna hear what you hear in this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel vs Yanny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laurel, laurel laurel, laurel, laurel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know what’s crazy? When I first heard this, um, what was this, like seven years ago in 2018, I swore it was saying Yanny. And now… I’m hearing Laurel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I think I may have an explanation for that. I hear Laurel too, and the unflattering reason behind that, or one of the theories, is that it may be related to our age. So I hate to tell you, but I think you’ve arrived in Millennialville. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s time. It’s coming for us all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when this was first circulating, the New York Times and Wired and a bunch of other news outlets took it super seriously getting to the bottom of what was happening. And the New York Times actually created this tool to help people hear both sides. So if you only heard one or the other in this clip, I can play a clip of audio that shows you what it should sound like moving from the Laurel to Yanny spectrum. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel vs Yanny: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Laurel, laurel, laurel, laurel, yanny, yanny, yanny, yanny, yanny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, I was hearing like hints of Yanny. It was so weird. It was like my brain was fighting the Yanny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it feels like it’s like fighting to come to the surface. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But eventually like it kicks over. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly! So there’s some actual science behind why some people hear Laurel and others hear Yanny, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, so it’s still hard to know for sure what caused it, but there’s a prevailing theory and essentially two things are what people think is happening in this clip. One is that the recording of the recording has added and introduced new frequencies to the audio. So remember, these were high school kids who were recording a clip played from online of a vocab word. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The original word is Laurel. So if that’s what you heard, you were correct. But when Laurel was recorded through computer speakers into a phone and then sent across the internet, it introduced some additional frequencies to the audio. And our brains are choosing which of those frequencies to prioritize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is where the age part comes in. Older people tend to hear lower frequencies and less of the high frequencies. And then younger listeners, they have a broader range of those high frequencies available to them. So the theory is that if you hear Laurel, you’re probably prioritizing those lower frequencies, and if you hear Yanny, your brain is prioritizing those higher frequencies. And younger people may be more inclined to prioritize those because they can actually hear more of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My God. Sorry, I’m still coming to terms with my ancient, decrepit ears. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know. It’s the worst. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So are there any bigger implications for this phenomenon or is it just like an oddity of the digital age? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it means that there’s just more opportunity for ambiguity and misinterpretation. We’re listening to audio, if you think about it, in all these different forms all the time now, we’re playing them through computer speakers, from our phone speakers on crowded busses, in our car stereos, which means that there’s a lot of opportunity for us to hear things differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So is this why I sometimes miss your song lyrics? Like I swore, god, back in the day, Taylor Swift’s Blank Space. I swore she was saying “Starbucks lovers.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Swift: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got a long list of ex-lovers. They’ll tell… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, that is a common one. The actual lyric is “long list of ex-lovers,” but I get why people hear that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here I am, like, I knew it was the wrong lyric, and for the last, I don’t know, 10 years, I’ve just been like, “I don’t need to learn it, it’s Starbucks lovers.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that’s actually a different phenomena, but just as fascinating. It turns out our brains do make up words that aren’t there. And that’s what’s happening when you’re listening to song lyrics sometimes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s hear about that, in a new tab. Can my brain make up words that aren’t there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re definitely not the only person this happens to. I actually went around and I asked our colleagues about some of the songs that they’ve misheard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susie Britton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brother and I, when we were little, used to play what we called the wrong song game. One that I remember was Bonnie Tyler’s It’s a Heartache.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bonnie Tyler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a heartache\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susie Britton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we heard that as, it’s a hard egg.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Nieto: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I learned this very, very late in life, which I’m embarrassed to admit, but yeah, the song lyric is “revved up like a deuce” from Blinded by the Light by Manfred Mann.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Manfred Mann: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blinded by the light. Revved up like a deuce another runner in the night.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Nieto: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the vast majority of my life, I thought it was “wrapped up like a douche.” And I know I’m not the only one because if you Google that lyric, you get a ton of hits for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beat It by Michael Jackson, I always thought was, “beat it, just beat it. You don’t wanna beat it beat it”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Jackson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beat it, beat it, no one wants to be defeated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s actually, “no one wants to be defeated.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Chappell Roan’s song, Hot to Go, was really popular.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chappell Roan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H-O-T-T-O-G-O You can take me hot to go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My then five-year-old loved that song, would always sing along to it, and then one time I was singing along to, and I said, “hot to go,” and she was like, Mom, that’s wrong, it’s “out to go.” She wasn’t catching on to the spelling, so she was just like, “you’re wrong, it’s out to, do it right.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bryan Vo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Growing up, one of the childhood bangers was T-Pain Buy You a Drink. I saw a T-pain tweet about it in like 2017. And then I found out that instead of just harmonizing random lyrics, “ooh wee.” It was actually “and then.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, what?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bryan Vo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly what?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m glad I’m not the only one. So is there a name for this phenomenon, too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Very perceptive. I feel like you’re getting the hang of this. It’s called the Mondegreen effect. And that’s when you mishear phrases or words and so assign them a new meaning. Sometimes it’s hearing words that you do know, but in an order that’s not what was actually being said, like Starbucks lovers, like those are real words. And then sometimes it’s just inventing a totally new word, which is what happens to me the most. I just make up a new thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, this is most common with song lyrics, and it comes from the mid-century American writer, Sylvia Wright. She coined this term based on her childhood. She remembered mis-hearing the line in a Scottish ballad called The Bonnie Earl O’ Moray. And there’s a line in the song that goes, “laid him on the green,” which she interpreted as Lady Mondegreen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Bonnie Earl O’ Moray: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh where have ye been, they slain The Earl O’ Moray, and laid him on the green.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which is another really common way that we do this is we just make up formal nouns or things that feel like names when we don’t really know what’s being said. So Morgan, researching the Mondegreen effect actually led me to researcher Diana Deutsch. She is at Stanford and UC San Diego, and she is like the audio illusion researcher. Been doing this for decades. She discovered that when you take two audio sources, and you play the same word or syllable slightly out of sync, after about 10 seconds of listening, people start to invent phantom words in that overlap. They start to hear different things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, here’s a clip from one of these audio experiments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Auditory Illusion: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">WELWELWELLWEL WEL WELL WELLWELL WEL\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even with the same audio, the phantom words that they’re hearing are often unique to the listener. So here’s Diana listing some of the words that people have reported hearing in the same piece of audio.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Diana Deustch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Window, welcome, love me, run away, no brain, rainbow, raincoat, bueno, nombre, when oh when, mango, window pane, broadway, even rogain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is fascinating. So why would people hear totally different phantom words in the same audio?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is similar to something called periodolia, where people perceive familiar patterns in random or ambiguous stimuli. This happens a lot with visual things. So like seeing a face on the moon or Jesus in a flower tortilla. It turns out that that can happen with audio too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Diana Deustch: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generally people hear words or phrases that refer to things that are on their mind. So for example, if someone’s on a diet, they might hear the phrase, “feel fat.” And it often happens when I present these to a group of students close to exam time, they’ll hear things like “no brain.” So these illusions show that when people believe that they’re hearing meaningful messages from the outside world, their brains are actively reconstructing sounds that make sense to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Diana says that the patterns we hear are influenced by things like our mood, what we’ve thought about or discussed that day, whether we’re tired or sad or scared. We assign meaning to sounds based on our internal narratives. For example, that’s part of what might be going on when people report hearing electronic voice phenomena in ghost hunting. Being scared or heightened or thinking about ghosts may lead you to hear certain phrases in ambiguous audio.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ghost Hunters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s amazing. Strange, right? How it says- Goose bumps up my spine. Clearly a voice. I hear something negative, like no or don’t.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Diana actually told me that one thing that’s quite common is for people who have recently experienced a loss, they’re more likely in their day-to-day lives to hear what sounds like words or phrases or even voices associated with their lost loved one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Earlier, you mentioned that having less information, like audio without visual cues, makes us more likely to assign new meaning to what we hear. So let’s bring this full circle. So after all of this research, what would you tell someone who’s absolutely convinced that they know what Elon Musk’s son said in that clip?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I would say that that probably says more about you and how you feel about Elon Musk or President Trump than necessarily what the three people in that audio clip were saying. It doesn’t mean that you’re wrong. It’s just that we don’t know. There’s no way to really hear truth in an audio clip that convoluted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what are some of the ways bad actors can purposely take advantage of how suggestible our senses and our brains are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that the easiest way to be manipulated is when somebody is taking a clip or a small snippet of something and then abbreviating the context and telling you what goes before and after. And social media is designed in this way to give us bite-sized samples of the world. But when you’re taking just a bite, it means that you might be missing the whole meal around it, and you might get the flavors wrong. And you might kinda misunderstand what’s being served to you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How can understanding all of this brain trickery help us spot actual misinformation?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s the ultimate question, right? We can’t trust our eyes, we can’t trust our ears, we can’t trust AI. I think that the real takeaway, I guess, that I have after this research spiral is trust but verify. Double check your own thinking when you’re encountering one of these clips online. Is it too good to be true? Maybe it takes a little extra Googling to see if you can get to the bottom of it. And maybe, I guess another takeaway I would have is being okay with a little bit of ambiguity. Sometimes there are mysteries that Google can’t answer for us. Just like the answer of what was really said in the White House in that moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No amount of Reddit threads can do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But knowing that there are unknowns, I feel like being aware that people claiming to have a definitive answer might not be telling the truth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well Francesca, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for telling us all about, I don’t know, these crazy auditory illusions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for having me, Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Voices from KQED staff in this episode included Susie Britton, Mark Nieto, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Brian Vo, and Blanca Torres. Francesca runs KQED’s Discord server and Close All Tabs has its own channel. Come say hi, share your thoughts, and chat with other listeners about the show. Join us at discord.gg/KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard and Katherine Monahan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the kqed podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org, follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, and if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 1:05 p.m. Tuesday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two Bay Area counties are suing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\">Trump administration\u003c/a> over its reorganization and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034478/federal-workers-fired-thousands-california-wants-hire-them\">downsizing of the federal government\u003c/a> without congressional approval, their top attorneys announced Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco City Attorney David Chiu and Santa Clara County Counsel Tony LoPresti joined cities and counties in Texas, Illinois, Washington and Maryland, as well as labor unions representing affected workers, to bring the suit alleging that the mass restructuring violates the constitutional principle of separation of powers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The suit, which names President Donald Trump, the Department of Government Efficiency, the Office of Personnel Management and the Office of Management and Budget, was filed Monday evening in the U.S. District Court of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This case really boils down to the basic civics that we all learned in high school. There are three co-equal branches of government,” LoPresti said at a Tuesday press conference in San José. “The president’s job is to execute the laws, not to make the laws. When the president attempts to take the legislative power away from the legislative branch and claim it as his own, we are facing an existential threat to democracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaintiffs allege that Trump’s executive orders, which demand reductions in the function and workforce of federal departments, exceed his executive authority and illegally take away Congress’ exclusive authority to create U.S. law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chiu and LoPresti argue that Trump needs the legislative branch’s permission to make these significant changes to the size and structure of the federal government — a rule he should know, the lawsuit said, since he “tried and failed to obtain that authorization during his first term in office.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/GettyImages-2195560285-scaled-e1745951058371.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">President Donald Trump holds up a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Jan. 23. \u003ccite>(Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“President Trump determined that in his second term, he would proceed without Congress,” the lawsuit alleges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his first weeks in office, Trump created the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033139/doge-says-it-needs-to-know-the-governments-most-sensitive-data-but-cant-say-why\">Department of Government Efficiency\u003c/a>, which, despite its name, is set up as a White House executive office, not an official Cabinet-level department. Headed by Elon Musk, DOGE was tasked with carrying out an 18-month agenda to reduce the government’s “waste, bloat, and insularity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In February, Trump introduced an \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/implementing-the-presidents-department-of-government-efficiency-workforce-optimization-initiative/\">executive order on his “Workforce Optimization Initiative,”\u003c/a> which required all government agencies to submit downsizing plans to DOGE, along with the offices of Management and Budget, and Personnel Management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So far, more than 58,000 employees have been fired as part of the DOGE-led restructuring, while 76,000 more took a buyout offered by the Trump administration in January, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/28/us/politics/trump-doge-federal-job-cuts.html\">according to data tracked by the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>(The federal government has kept no official tally of the number of affected workers.)\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Planned cuts could hit more than 148,000 additional federal workers, according to the \u003cem>Times\u003c/em> tracker, and multiple government agencies have been all but shut down through hiring and funding freezes and executive orders from the president.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our federal government has been decimated and thrown into complete disarray,” Chiu said Tuesday. “These dramatic and illegal changes have made it extremely difficult for local communities and local governments to effectively deliver our programs and services, as massive layoffs and staffing shortages have ground intergovernmental work to a halt.”[aside postID=news_12037889 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/TravisAirForceBaseGetty-1020x602.jpg']This week’s lawsuit alleges that Trump’s executive order on the federal workforce and three others targeting a dozen specific government agencies — including the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65308/the-education-department-is-being-cut-in-half-heres-whats-being-lost\">Department of Education\u003c/a>, the Institute of Peace, and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12027864/trump-moves-slash-presidio-trust-agency-runs-historic-sf-park\">Presidio Trust\u003c/a> in San Francisco — violate the requirement for congressional approval.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Workforce Executive Order does not simply suggest or encourage agencies to exercise their own statutory authority to effectuate a government-wide reorganization: it orders them to act according to the President’s vision, regardless of that statutory authority,” the lawsuit reads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The local governments and labor unions are requesting that a federal judge vacate the executive order to downsize the federal workforce and declare that Trump acted unconstitutionally. It also asks the judge to find that departments carrying out Trump’s requests have acted unlawfully and outside the authority granted to them by Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the president takes for himself the legislative power of Congress to recreate federal agencies in the manner he sees fit, he violates the Constitution,” the suit said. “And when the president does so across every federal agency, he threatens the very constitutional foundation of this nation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If successful, the parties aim to halt future reduction-in-force plans at federal agencies and reverse cuts they say were made unconstitutionally, which have already affected Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12029178/trumps-mass-layoffs-noaa-cut-into-bay-area-weather-service\">National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration\u003c/a> workers, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033338/bay-area-air-traffic-control-is-down-to-1-meteorologist-after-trumps-hiring-freeze\">air traffic controllers\u003c/a>, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034527/meals-on-wheels-child-welfare-hhs-staff-sf-woke-up-our-jobs-gone\">Health and Human Services \u003c/a>employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As far as I know, we still live in a democracy, and what is happening is illegal and authoritarian,” Chiu said. “This is why San Francisco stands with this coalition and this lawsuit to stand up for the constitution and our rule of law while it still exists.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The Bay Area counties join other cities, counties and labor unions in the lawsuit alleging that the mass federal downsizing without congressional approval violates the Constitution.",
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"title": "San Francisco, Santa Clara Counties Sue Trump Over Mass DOGE-Led Firings | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 1:05 p.m. Tuesday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two Bay Area counties are suing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\">Trump administration\u003c/a> over its reorganization and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034478/federal-workers-fired-thousands-california-wants-hire-them\">downsizing of the federal government\u003c/a> without congressional approval, their top attorneys announced Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco City Attorney David Chiu and Santa Clara County Counsel Tony LoPresti joined cities and counties in Texas, Illinois, Washington and Maryland, as well as labor unions representing affected workers, to bring the suit alleging that the mass restructuring violates the constitutional principle of separation of powers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The suit, which names President Donald Trump, the Department of Government Efficiency, the Office of Personnel Management and the Office of Management and Budget, was filed Monday evening in the U.S. District Court of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This case really boils down to the basic civics that we all learned in high school. There are three co-equal branches of government,” LoPresti said at a Tuesday press conference in San José. “The president’s job is to execute the laws, not to make the laws. When the president attempts to take the legislative power away from the legislative branch and claim it as his own, we are facing an existential threat to democracy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaintiffs allege that Trump’s executive orders, which demand reductions in the function and workforce of federal departments, exceed his executive authority and illegally take away Congress’ exclusive authority to create U.S. law.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Chiu and LoPresti argue that Trump needs the legislative branch’s permission to make these significant changes to the size and structure of the federal government — a rule he should know, the lawsuit said, since he “tried and failed to obtain that authorization during his first term in office.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/GettyImages-2195560285-scaled-e1745951058371.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">President Donald Trump holds up a signed executive order in the Oval Office of the White House on Jan. 23. \u003ccite>(Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“President Trump determined that in his second term, he would proceed without Congress,” the lawsuit alleges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his first weeks in office, Trump created the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033139/doge-says-it-needs-to-know-the-governments-most-sensitive-data-but-cant-say-why\">Department of Government Efficiency\u003c/a>, which, despite its name, is set up as a White House executive office, not an official Cabinet-level department. Headed by Elon Musk, DOGE was tasked with carrying out an 18-month agenda to reduce the government’s “waste, bloat, and insularity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In February, Trump introduced an \u003ca href=\"https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/implementing-the-presidents-department-of-government-efficiency-workforce-optimization-initiative/\">executive order on his “Workforce Optimization Initiative,”\u003c/a> which required all government agencies to submit downsizing plans to DOGE, along with the offices of Management and Budget, and Personnel Management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So far, more than 58,000 employees have been fired as part of the DOGE-led restructuring, while 76,000 more took a buyout offered by the Trump administration in January, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/28/us/politics/trump-doge-federal-job-cuts.html\">according to data tracked by the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>(The federal government has kept no official tally of the number of affected workers.)\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Planned cuts could hit more than 148,000 additional federal workers, according to the \u003cem>Times\u003c/em> tracker, and multiple government agencies have been all but shut down through hiring and funding freezes and executive orders from the president.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our federal government has been decimated and thrown into complete disarray,” Chiu said Tuesday. “These dramatic and illegal changes have made it extremely difficult for local communities and local governments to effectively deliver our programs and services, as massive layoffs and staffing shortages have ground intergovernmental work to a halt.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>This week’s lawsuit alleges that Trump’s executive order on the federal workforce and three others targeting a dozen specific government agencies — including the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65308/the-education-department-is-being-cut-in-half-heres-whats-being-lost\">Department of Education\u003c/a>, the Institute of Peace, and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12027864/trump-moves-slash-presidio-trust-agency-runs-historic-sf-park\">Presidio Trust\u003c/a> in San Francisco — violate the requirement for congressional approval.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Workforce Executive Order does not simply suggest or encourage agencies to exercise their own statutory authority to effectuate a government-wide reorganization: it orders them to act according to the President’s vision, regardless of that statutory authority,” the lawsuit reads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The local governments and labor unions are requesting that a federal judge vacate the executive order to downsize the federal workforce and declare that Trump acted unconstitutionally. It also asks the judge to find that departments carrying out Trump’s requests have acted unlawfully and outside the authority granted to them by Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the president takes for himself the legislative power of Congress to recreate federal agencies in the manner he sees fit, he violates the Constitution,” the suit said. “And when the president does so across every federal agency, he threatens the very constitutional foundation of this nation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If successful, the parties aim to halt future reduction-in-force plans at federal agencies and reverse cuts they say were made unconstitutionally, which have already affected Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12029178/trumps-mass-layoffs-noaa-cut-into-bay-area-weather-service\">National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration\u003c/a> workers, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033338/bay-area-air-traffic-control-is-down-to-1-meteorologist-after-trumps-hiring-freeze\">air traffic controllers\u003c/a>, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034527/meals-on-wheels-child-welfare-hhs-staff-sf-woke-up-our-jobs-gone\">Health and Human Services \u003c/a>employees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As far as I know, we still live in a democracy, and what is happening is illegal and authoritarian,” Chiu said. “This is why San Francisco stands with this coalition and this lawsuit to stand up for the constitution and our rule of law while it still exists.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "what-is-the-nerd-reich-and-how-did-they-get-involved-with-the-us-government",
"title": "What Is Silicon Valley's 'Nerd Reich,' and Is It Taking Over the US Government?",
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"content": "\u003cp>Sixty percent of surveyed American adults said they had an unfavorable view of Elon Musk — the billionaire Tesla CEO, who has been intimately involved with the federal government for months through his leadership of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033139/doge-says-it-needs-to-know-the-governments-most-sensitive-data-but-cant-say-why\">the unofficial Department of Government Efficiency\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the inauguration of President Donald Trump, Musk’s DOGE has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65206/doges-death-blow-to-education-studies\">slashed large swaths\u003c/a> of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034478/federal-workers-fired-thousands-california-wants-hire-them\">federal jobs and cut funding\u003c/a> to programs as varied as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025373/elon-musk-said-he-wants-usaid-to-die-now-the-agencys-website-is-down\">the U.S. Agency for International Development\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036105/bay-area-advocates-alarmed-by-mass-firings-at-federal-low-income-energy-program\">energy-saving initiatives for low-income families\u003c/a>. And \u003ca href=\"https://law.marquette.edu/poll/\">this March poll of 1,000 people\u003c/a> by the Marquette Law School is just one indicator that \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/02/elon-musk-poll-approval-030168\">some Americans are tired\u003c/a> of wealthy tech figures being involved in the nation’s politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re learning a big lesson here, which is that we can have democracy or we can have billionaires, but we can’t have both,” San Francisco journalist Gil Duran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101909416/is-the-nerd-reich-taking-over-the-government\">KQED Forum’s Mina Kim spoke to Duran\u003c/a>, who formerly worked for California politicians like Jerry Brown and Kamala Harris, about the \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">“Silicon Valley tech billionaire politics” that are the focus of his \u003c/a>newsletter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">\u003cem>The Nerd Reich\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — and what he thinks tech elites might want next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before DOGE, there was RAGE\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gil Duran:\u003c/strong> Curtis Yarvin is a San Francisco software programmer who, in the early 2000s, started blogging under the name “Mencius Moldbug.” And in his blog posts — very internet troll stuff — he laid out these ideas for replacing democracy with tech-controlled dictatorships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He specifically focused on San Francisco, which he said in his corporate tech dictatorship would be renamed “Frisk Corp.” In Frisk Corp, you would have to swipe in with \u003ca href=\"https://www.dhs.gov/archive/radio-frequency-identification-rfid-what-it\">RFID \u003c/a>chips and be under total surveillance, and give up all of your freedom in exchange for security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12033066 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/paypal-mafia_web-img-1020x574.png']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The important thing to understand about Curtis Yarvin is that he became a favorite thinker of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033066/the-broligarchy-pt-1-chronicles-of-the-paypal-mafia\">Peter Thiel, the PayPal Mafia billionaire \u003c/a>who founded Palantir and got even richer off of government surveillance. Some people call him Peter Thiel’s house philosopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2012, [Yarvin] gave a speech in which he said that the government needed to be reformed with something he called RAGE — Retire All Government Employees. And that entailed taking over the federal government, purging the bureaucracy of anybody who’s a Democrat or who believes in democracy, and replacing all federal employees with people who would answer to a CEO-dictator-type of person. Very much mirroring what Elon Musk is doing with DOGE at this current time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If it weren’t for these billionaires, [Yarvin would] be just an anonymous internet troll. The whole reason this has gone national is because of JD Vance. [And] to understand JD Vance, you have to understand that \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/07/17/g-s1-11654/five-things-to-know-about-jd-vances-connections-to-tech-billionaires\">he is largely a creation of Peter Thiel.\u003c/a> At every step of JD’s career, Peter Thiel has been there, funding him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11222083\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11222083\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\" alt=\"Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives during the first Trump Administration. \u003ccite>(Drew Angerer/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Predicting the ‘cognitive elite’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Yarvin is largely deriving his ideas from other places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To really understand this, you have to go back to a 1997 book called \u003cem>The Sovereign Individual, \u003c/em> which basically was one of these dark, apocalyptic-style books, and it predicted that in the 21st century, the information age would undermine the existing economy and existing nation-states. That\u003ca href=\"https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Information%20Age\"> the Information Age \u003c/a>would kill lots of jobs and result in a lot of violence and chaos, and also lead to the rise of a so-called “cognitive elite”: people who are able to become wealthy off of technology and don’t need traditional jobs to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would be their mission to escape from existing countries using something called cyber currency — basically \u003ca href=\"https://www.oswego.edu/cts/basics-about-cryptocurrency\">crypto, \u003c/a> which would allow them to evade taxation and evade government authority, and create their own nations that they would rule over in this post-democracy order brought about by the information age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These ideas sound crazy when you first hear them. They sounded very unhinged to me, and I didn’t pay attention to them at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, you have to understand that these are very wealthy men with very strange and scary ideas. And they seriously believe in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12033142\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12033142\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">White House adviser Elon Musk at a Cabinet meeting at the White House on Monday. Musk, who is also the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla, is leading the Department of Government Efficiency effort that is trying to get access to data from across the government to find waste, fraud and abuse. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The GOP vs. the ‘broligarchs’?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I think Trump has, for the most, part right now, been bought off. Trump’s in it for the money — and these guys have plenty of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He may not have the ideology, but as long as Elon and these guys are going to spend billions of dollars and create all of these \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/05/us/politics/trump-family-saudi-golf.html\">business opportunities for his family\u003c/a>, I think he’s all in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is a problem, though, because this is becoming very unpopular very quickly. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-approval-rating-dips-many-wary-his-wielding-power-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2025-04-21/\">The polls are diving\u003c/a>. Elon Musk is becoming one of the most despised men in the country. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035250/new-social-security-rules-will-create-hurdles-for-millions-of-older-adults-report-finds\">He’s threatening Social Security\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-federal-workers-veterans-fired-1032360fdc6b2fb33d88edaf8f54d5ca\">He’s firing veterans\u003c/a>. You’ve got \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/16/politics/town-halls-congress-tempers-flare/index.html\">Republicans showing up\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/inside-a-heated-town-hall-where-a-nebraska-republican-faced-backlash-over-trumps-policies\">town halls to yell\u003c/a> at \u003ca href=\"https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/republicans-town-halls-musk-russia-b2720632.html\">their absentee representatives in early 2025\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a political disaster in many ways, so I think there will be some political tension between the Republican establishment and these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034198/the-broligarchy-pt-2-is-this-techno-fascism\">“tech-broligarchs”\u003c/a> — because they’re breaking all the rules of politics and don’t really seem to care about the future. And in politics, you’ve really got to care about the next election and the election after. That’s the name of the game.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Silicon Valley’s ‘right wing strain’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I compare it to: this tech authoritarianism is the parasite and MAGA is the host.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Tech leaders] saw an opportunity, right? It’s a very opportunistic play — and an opportunity to go as far as they can with a candidate who has been able to openly violate the law, and not pay any political consequence for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11998040 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/072024_Vance-Trump_REUTERS_CM_01-copy-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is not an ideology where the world is a better place for the majority of people. It’s a place where the world is a place for tech billionaires. You don’t make the world a better place by getting rid of Social Security, which is crucial to the survival of millions of Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/may/10/palo-alto-book-malcom-harris-interview\">Malcolm Harris’s [book]\u003cem> Palo Alto\u003c/em>\u003c/a> talks about the right-wing strain through Silicon Valley. There was this idea during the nineties and part of the eighties and 2000s that tech was kind of fun: was going to make our life cool, all these nice products, connecting us, allowing us to buy stuff online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for a long time, it seemed nonthreatening. Remember, Google had the “Don’t be evil” slogan and they were kind of paddling around in their Crocs, building playgrounds for their employees and bespoke lunches and free kombucha on tap. There was the harmless vibe that seemed to be from Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think there has always been a certain anti-government lean to a lot of the Silicon Valley movement — this idea that “we’re going to create structures outside of government.” The idea of getting out of authoritarian society, evading bad governments in the future: there were times when these ideas seemed like something people on the left could be into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, what’s happened is: these guys became super rich. And as they’ve become super super \u003cem>super \u003c/em>rich, they’ve gone far, far, far to the right — and they’re pulling others now with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Freedom cities’ and governance by tech\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the way back in 2013, [Balaji Srinivasan, chief technology officer of cryptocurrency exchange Coinbase] gave a speech at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ycombinator.com/\">Y Combinator \u003c/a>in which he basically called for Silicon Valley to secede from the United States and to go start their own country and take all of their wealth and all of the brain power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continue[d] to develop these ideas over the next decade, and in 2022, released a book called \u003cem>The Network State\u003c/em> — how to start a new country. This book lays out all the reasons why American democracy is an outdated system and why it needs to be replaced by new tech forms of governance. And there are two ways to do that: one is to leave the country by a territory and create your own sovereign state or city. You can do that within a country or by leaving a country. And the other way is to take over existing governments and convert them into tech-controlled governments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12000185 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240625-SOLANO-COUNTY-BOARD-OF-SUPES-MD-01-KQED-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My interest in this ideology started with SF politics — this effort by tech bros to take over City Hall, but also by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california-forever\">the California Forever Project\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t until I read a book by a historian named Quinn Slobodian called, \u003ca href=\"https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250753892/crackupcapitalism/\">\u003cem>Crack Up Capitalism: Market Radicals and the Dream of a World Without Democracy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, that I understood the idea there … for wealthy people to find a way to exit society and create their own sort of utopian countries that they control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2024, Trump had a plan for something he calls the so-called “freedom cities,” which are \u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02723638.2023.2263121\">these 10 new charter cities\u003c/a> that would be built on federal land all around the United States. The newspapers have mentioned that Trump plans to “build freedom cities,” but no one has explained what that means: where the idea comes from or why we need them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the “freedom cities” are really anti-freedom cities — a very Orwellian name for what would essentially be a corporate-controlled city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996750\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11996750\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A billboard for California Forever sits on top of an apartment building along I-80 in Vallejo on April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>How does this all end?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A lot of people stayed home [and didn’t vote in the 2024 election.] And I think this is going to wake [Americans] up to the fact that you can’t stay home. We have to realize that there is a group of people who are avidly working against the public good and against the welfare and well-being of the majority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t think these [tech] guys have fully thought this out. I don’t think they realize — having been in politics myself — what it’s gonna feel like when you see that the majority of people are against you. I do think this ends with tens of millions of Americans taking to the streets on a regular basis to stand against what is \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/04/22/nx-s1-5340753/trump-democracy-authoritarianism-competive-survey-political-scientist\">an increasingly authoritarian regime in Washington\u003c/a>. And I think that it also ends with a bunch of billionaires getting on planes to Moscow at midnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s important to understand it, to learn about it, and to tell others about it … Word of mouth is very important. People listen to their peers, to their friends, to their family members. That’s where a lot of people get their main political knowledge from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sixty percent of surveyed American adults said they had an unfavorable view of Elon Musk — the billionaire Tesla CEO, who has been intimately involved with the federal government for months through his leadership of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033139/doge-says-it-needs-to-know-the-governments-most-sensitive-data-but-cant-say-why\">the unofficial Department of Government Efficiency\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the inauguration of President Donald Trump, Musk’s DOGE has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65206/doges-death-blow-to-education-studies\">slashed large swaths\u003c/a> of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034478/federal-workers-fired-thousands-california-wants-hire-them\">federal jobs and cut funding\u003c/a> to programs as varied as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025373/elon-musk-said-he-wants-usaid-to-die-now-the-agencys-website-is-down\">the U.S. Agency for International Development\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036105/bay-area-advocates-alarmed-by-mass-firings-at-federal-low-income-energy-program\">energy-saving initiatives for low-income families\u003c/a>. And \u003ca href=\"https://law.marquette.edu/poll/\">this March poll of 1,000 people\u003c/a> by the Marquette Law School is just one indicator that \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/02/elon-musk-poll-approval-030168\">some Americans are tired\u003c/a> of wealthy tech figures being involved in the nation’s politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re learning a big lesson here, which is that we can have democracy or we can have billionaires, but we can’t have both,” San Francisco journalist Gil Duran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101909416/is-the-nerd-reich-taking-over-the-government\">KQED Forum’s Mina Kim spoke to Duran\u003c/a>, who formerly worked for California politicians like Jerry Brown and Kamala Harris, about the \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">“Silicon Valley tech billionaire politics” that are the focus of his \u003c/a>newsletter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">\u003cem>The Nerd Reich\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — and what he thinks tech elites might want next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before DOGE, there was RAGE\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gil Duran:\u003c/strong> Curtis Yarvin is a San Francisco software programmer who, in the early 2000s, started blogging under the name “Mencius Moldbug.” And in his blog posts — very internet troll stuff — he laid out these ideas for replacing democracy with tech-controlled dictatorships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He specifically focused on San Francisco, which he said in his corporate tech dictatorship would be renamed “Frisk Corp.” In Frisk Corp, you would have to swipe in with \u003ca href=\"https://www.dhs.gov/archive/radio-frequency-identification-rfid-what-it\">RFID \u003c/a>chips and be under total surveillance, and give up all of your freedom in exchange for security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The important thing to understand about Curtis Yarvin is that he became a favorite thinker of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033066/the-broligarchy-pt-1-chronicles-of-the-paypal-mafia\">Peter Thiel, the PayPal Mafia billionaire \u003c/a>who founded Palantir and got even richer off of government surveillance. Some people call him Peter Thiel’s house philosopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2012, [Yarvin] gave a speech in which he said that the government needed to be reformed with something he called RAGE — Retire All Government Employees. And that entailed taking over the federal government, purging the bureaucracy of anybody who’s a Democrat or who believes in democracy, and replacing all federal employees with people who would answer to a CEO-dictator-type of person. Very much mirroring what Elon Musk is doing with DOGE at this current time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If it weren’t for these billionaires, [Yarvin would] be just an anonymous internet troll. The whole reason this has gone national is because of JD Vance. [And] to understand JD Vance, you have to understand that \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/07/17/g-s1-11654/five-things-to-know-about-jd-vances-connections-to-tech-billionaires\">he is largely a creation of Peter Thiel.\u003c/a> At every step of JD’s career, Peter Thiel has been there, funding him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11222083\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11222083\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\" alt=\"Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives during the first Trump Administration. \u003ccite>(Drew Angerer/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Predicting the ‘cognitive elite’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Yarvin is largely deriving his ideas from other places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To really understand this, you have to go back to a 1997 book called \u003cem>The Sovereign Individual, \u003c/em> which basically was one of these dark, apocalyptic-style books, and it predicted that in the 21st century, the information age would undermine the existing economy and existing nation-states. That\u003ca href=\"https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Information%20Age\"> the Information Age \u003c/a>would kill lots of jobs and result in a lot of violence and chaos, and also lead to the rise of a so-called “cognitive elite”: people who are able to become wealthy off of technology and don’t need traditional jobs to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would be their mission to escape from existing countries using something called cyber currency — basically \u003ca href=\"https://www.oswego.edu/cts/basics-about-cryptocurrency\">crypto, \u003c/a> which would allow them to evade taxation and evade government authority, and create their own nations that they would rule over in this post-democracy order brought about by the information age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These ideas sound crazy when you first hear them. They sounded very unhinged to me, and I didn’t pay attention to them at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, you have to understand that these are very wealthy men with very strange and scary ideas. And they seriously believe in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12033142\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12033142\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">White House adviser Elon Musk at a Cabinet meeting at the White House on Monday. Musk, who is also the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla, is leading the Department of Government Efficiency effort that is trying to get access to data from across the government to find waste, fraud and abuse. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The GOP vs. the ‘broligarchs’?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I think Trump has, for the most, part right now, been bought off. Trump’s in it for the money — and these guys have plenty of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He may not have the ideology, but as long as Elon and these guys are going to spend billions of dollars and create all of these \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/05/us/politics/trump-family-saudi-golf.html\">business opportunities for his family\u003c/a>, I think he’s all in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is a problem, though, because this is becoming very unpopular very quickly. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-approval-rating-dips-many-wary-his-wielding-power-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2025-04-21/\">The polls are diving\u003c/a>. Elon Musk is becoming one of the most despised men in the country. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035250/new-social-security-rules-will-create-hurdles-for-millions-of-older-adults-report-finds\">He’s threatening Social Security\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-federal-workers-veterans-fired-1032360fdc6b2fb33d88edaf8f54d5ca\">He’s firing veterans\u003c/a>. You’ve got \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/16/politics/town-halls-congress-tempers-flare/index.html\">Republicans showing up\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/inside-a-heated-town-hall-where-a-nebraska-republican-faced-backlash-over-trumps-policies\">town halls to yell\u003c/a> at \u003ca href=\"https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/republicans-town-halls-musk-russia-b2720632.html\">their absentee representatives in early 2025\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a political disaster in many ways, so I think there will be some political tension between the Republican establishment and these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034198/the-broligarchy-pt-2-is-this-techno-fascism\">“tech-broligarchs”\u003c/a> — because they’re breaking all the rules of politics and don’t really seem to care about the future. And in politics, you’ve really got to care about the next election and the election after. That’s the name of the game.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Silicon Valley’s ‘right wing strain’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I compare it to: this tech authoritarianism is the parasite and MAGA is the host.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Tech leaders] saw an opportunity, right? It’s a very opportunistic play — and an opportunity to go as far as they can with a candidate who has been able to openly violate the law, and not pay any political consequence for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is not an ideology where the world is a better place for the majority of people. It’s a place where the world is a place for tech billionaires. You don’t make the world a better place by getting rid of Social Security, which is crucial to the survival of millions of Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/may/10/palo-alto-book-malcom-harris-interview\">Malcolm Harris’s [book]\u003cem> Palo Alto\u003c/em>\u003c/a> talks about the right-wing strain through Silicon Valley. There was this idea during the nineties and part of the eighties and 2000s that tech was kind of fun: was going to make our life cool, all these nice products, connecting us, allowing us to buy stuff online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for a long time, it seemed nonthreatening. Remember, Google had the “Don’t be evil” slogan and they were kind of paddling around in their Crocs, building playgrounds for their employees and bespoke lunches and free kombucha on tap. There was the harmless vibe that seemed to be from Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think there has always been a certain anti-government lean to a lot of the Silicon Valley movement — this idea that “we’re going to create structures outside of government.” The idea of getting out of authoritarian society, evading bad governments in the future: there were times when these ideas seemed like something people on the left could be into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, what’s happened is: these guys became super rich. And as they’ve become super super \u003cem>super \u003c/em>rich, they’ve gone far, far, far to the right — and they’re pulling others now with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Freedom cities’ and governance by tech\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the way back in 2013, [Balaji Srinivasan, chief technology officer of cryptocurrency exchange Coinbase] gave a speech at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ycombinator.com/\">Y Combinator \u003c/a>in which he basically called for Silicon Valley to secede from the United States and to go start their own country and take all of their wealth and all of the brain power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continue[d] to develop these ideas over the next decade, and in 2022, released a book called \u003cem>The Network State\u003c/em> — how to start a new country. This book lays out all the reasons why American democracy is an outdated system and why it needs to be replaced by new tech forms of governance. And there are two ways to do that: one is to leave the country by a territory and create your own sovereign state or city. You can do that within a country or by leaving a country. And the other way is to take over existing governments and convert them into tech-controlled governments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My interest in this ideology started with SF politics — this effort by tech bros to take over City Hall, but also by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california-forever\">the California Forever Project\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t until I read a book by a historian named Quinn Slobodian called, \u003ca href=\"https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250753892/crackupcapitalism/\">\u003cem>Crack Up Capitalism: Market Radicals and the Dream of a World Without Democracy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, that I understood the idea there … for wealthy people to find a way to exit society and create their own sort of utopian countries that they control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2024, Trump had a plan for something he calls the so-called “freedom cities,” which are \u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02723638.2023.2263121\">these 10 new charter cities\u003c/a> that would be built on federal land all around the United States. The newspapers have mentioned that Trump plans to “build freedom cities,” but no one has explained what that means: where the idea comes from or why we need them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the “freedom cities” are really anti-freedom cities — a very Orwellian name for what would essentially be a corporate-controlled city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996750\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11996750\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A billboard for California Forever sits on top of an apartment building along I-80 in Vallejo on April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>How does this all end?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A lot of people stayed home [and didn’t vote in the 2024 election.] And I think this is going to wake [Americans] up to the fact that you can’t stay home. We have to realize that there is a group of people who are avidly working against the public good and against the welfare and well-being of the majority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t think these [tech] guys have fully thought this out. I don’t think they realize — having been in politics myself — what it’s gonna feel like when you see that the majority of people are against you. I do think this ends with tens of millions of Americans taking to the streets on a regular basis to stand against what is \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/04/22/nx-s1-5340753/trump-democracy-authoritarianism-competive-survey-political-scientist\">an increasingly authoritarian regime in Washington\u003c/a>. And I think that it also ends with a bunch of billionaires getting on planes to Moscow at midnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s important to understand it, to learn about it, and to tell others about it … Word of mouth is very important. People listen to their peers, to their friends, to their family members. That’s where a lot of people get their main political knowledge from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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